8/6 to 10/13 [Guilty or Not Guilty?]

[penfold]

Your thoughts please :smile:

[seawolf4]

Good Morning Penfold,
I do not see the evidence to convict her of murder. I do believe that truth is often simple and the evidence supports that Rudy murdered Merideth. And acted alone. I do not see a connection between Amanda and Rudy. Attempts to tie her to Rudy and the murder seem twisted and convoluted. MOO

[penfold]

Morning seawolf4 :smile:

Are you of the opinion that she knows more about the murder than she is saying but wasn't necessarily a party to it?

I just found the way she acted after Meredith was discovered was very very strange.

[Jester]

Morning seawolf4 :smile:

Are you of the opinion that she knows more about the murder than she is saying but wasn't necessarily a party to it?

I just found the way she acted after Meredith was discovered was very very strange.

I need to think about it some more before deciding. I'm thinking that if I forget about the confession, forget about her voluntary statement, and forget about the numerous lies - that is, give her the benefit of the doubt and omit the interrogation and resulting actions ... what then?

We can also forget about the bra clasp, and the knife. What's left? Amanda's strange behavior, the cleaned up murder scene, the bloody footprint, the DNA mixed with Meredith's in the bathroom sink, the appearance that she had not showered when photographed shortly after the body was discovered, the shopping trips to the grocer and lingerie shop ... and the claim that she knows nothing because she smoked a little hashish or pot.

I'm leaning towards guilty, but want to look at what evidence is left if Amanda is viewed as a confused 20 year old in a foreign country.

[Jester]

Good Morning Penfold,
I do not see the evidence to convict her of murder. I do believe that truth is often simple and the evidence supports that Rudy murdered Merideth. And acted alone. I do not see a connection between Amanda and Rudy. Attempts to tie her to Rudy and the murder seem twisted and convoluted. MOO

Amanda admitted that she had met and socialized with Rudy 3-4 times in the short couple of weeks that she had been in Italy. She slept with men she'd known for a shorted time. Amanda and Rudy were at the same Halloween party the night before Meredith was murdered. I think there's enough of a connection that it's not impossible ... and there's also the drug use connection. Rudy sold, Amanda used.

[dgfred]

Rudy was also tight with the boys downstairs... right? I'm thinking she at least knew who Rudy was.

[Jester]

Rudy was also tight with the boys downstairs... right? I'm thinking she at least knew who Rudy was.

Yes. He knew the guys downstairs, and Rudy knew and liked Meredith. He had been at the house several times. By her own admissions, Amanda had met Rudy 3-4 times.

[KnoxCase]

I'm leaning to Lone Wolf = Not Guilty.

There are a few "holes" in convincing myself though.

One is-

"The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologized immediately and she said it was not a problem."

Is this true? or yet another, false claim, hyped up media mistake like the bleach receipt....? mistakenly translated?
Where is the source for this?

while reading Raffaele's diary and translations of his story...I realized I don't know if any of this happened or not?

as this line states...at the top of an article.


Sollecito reportedly told police in an interview that he wanted to change his story


There's far too many "reportedly told" articles in this case.... it's the first internet case I've really followed and the abundance of misinformation is hard to sift thru!

[shygiant]

Amanda knox has never had a violent reputation in her past. All of the people that have known her love her. Rudy, on the other hand, has a very violent past and is a drug dealer among other questionable traits and has already been found guilty of the murder of Meridith. Amanda may have known more than she origionally admitted to, but had no knowledge or participation in the murder of her room mate. Leave her along and get out of there. She had an opportunity to leave earlier and had no reason to think she should. She is as innocent as can be..............

[dgfred]

If innocent as can be... why ALL the lies? It also didn't seem that Meredith 'loved' her, and several of the friends sure did abandon her quite quickly. She may be innocent, but her actions alone bring the need for more answers to her knowledge/involvement.

[Emerald]

I'm having the same problem with the information being very sparse in this case. However, I'm leaning towards AK being guilty of some complicity, but not the actual murder.

Same bits of information lead to different conclusions.

It will be interesting how the jury and Judges conclude.

How does the jury's conclusion weigh against the panel of judges? I mean if the jury says not guilty, but the Judges say guilty, which verdict is accepted? I'm not real knowledgable of the Italian Justice system.

[dgfred]

I don't think there is a jury, just the panel of 8 judges... I think :huh: .

[Emerald]

Thanks, dgfred. I've asked the same question at other sites. Think I get the answer. Then, somebody says something that makes me think something different. :confused:

One thing I've gathered is the jurists are allowed to openly discuss and read anything they want about the case outside the courtroom.

[lunchlady]

I voted guilty. Because of the physical evidence, the cleanup, the staging, the cleaning products, and other things. Amanda and Raf's behavior adds to my opinion, but it certainly isn't the only factor.

I can't see that Rudy would have done the cleanup, such as it was, and if so I doubt he would have left the BM in the pot. I think that A&R were interrupted during the final cleanup when the postal police came with Meredith's phones. They didn't want to get out of the country because they didn't want to change their lives and thought they could get away with not leaving. Raf is a well-off Italian boy, so he wouldn't want to leave Italy. Better to clean up and brazen it out. They probably thought they could outwit the police.

OTOH I can see this cause resulting in two Not Guiltys because of the weakness of the forensic exhibits. I wonder if the mop, knife matching the wounds, and other things could have been found if anyone had roped up and went down that steep hill behind the cottage.

[n/t]

I voted guilty and I hope she is punished to the full extent of the law.

Based on forensics at the crime scene, her lies, her bizarre behaviour and last but not least, her total disregard and disrespect for the victim leads me to believe she is 100% guilty. On the first day of court, she walked into the courtroom with a huge smile on her face. Any normal person would be devastated but not Amanda Knox. I see a lot of similarities to Casey Anthony in her.

I see her as a cocky, conniving, jealous and evil person.

[KnoxCase]

I think that A&R were interrupted during the final cleanup when the postal police came with Meredith's phones.

It is extremely unique the chain of events which lead to the finding of cell phones and Postal Police arriving at the cottage, precisely at that time!!
what are the odds? a billion to one?!!

[dgfred]

I voted guilty. Because of the physical evidence, the cleanup, the staging, the cleaning products, and other things. Amanda and Raf's behavior adds to my opinion, but it certainly isn't the only factor.

I can't see that Rudy would have done the cleanup, such as it was, and if so I doubt he would have left the BM in the pot. I think that A&R were interrupted during the final cleanup when the postal police came with Meredith's phones. They didn't want to get out of the country because they didn't want to change their lives and thought they could get away with not leaving. Raf is a well-off Italian boy, so he wouldn't want to leave Italy. Better to clean up and brazen it out. They probably thought they could outwit the police.

OTOH I can see this cause resulting in two Not Guiltys because of the weakness of the forensic exhibits. I wonder if the mop, knife matching the wounds, and other things could have been found if anyone had roped up and went down that steep hill behind the cottage.

Rudi already admitted to having a stomach ache... thus turd in toilet.
Amanda and Raf's behavior is a sticking point to me, something definately seems to have been going on out of the ordinary.

[dgfred]

It is extremely unique the chain of events which lead to the finding of cell phones and Postal Police arriving at the cottage, precisely at that time!!
what are the odds? a billion to one?!!

What are you thinking about that situation, and why is it so odd to you?

[Emerald]

It is extremely unique the chain of events which lead to the finding of cell phones and Postal Police arriving at the cottage, precisely at that time!!
what are the odds? a billion to one?!!

:confused:

I don't understand your point, KnoxCase. Could you explain further please?

FWIW, I agree with the scenario of the previous poster. Except, RS was there to help Amanda with the cleanup. At Amanda's request.

I don't buy for a single second Amanda's story of being in both bathrooms without being alarmed. In one she noticed blood. In the other, there was a stinky unflushed toilet. AK was in that bathroom for a quite a few minutes to not bother flushing the toilet.

Then, the e-mail AK wrote home to garner support. That's not the story she told LE, IIRC.

The inappropriate behavior of AK's family isn't helping her case any, either.

JMO

[KnoxCase]

I was just saying, it was a interesting coincidence, the Postal Police showed up, to return the cell phones, at the exact time Amanda and Raffaele were there. imo.


I don't know what your talking about listing all the other things in this case....but your comment about the clean-up is a different scenario for Raffaele.

Do you think Raffaele would implicate himself into a murder by cleaning up, with someone he's only known a week or two?

And then even if he was that stupid, you think he would then compound the stupidity, and silently sit in prison for nearly 2 years with murder charges/ 30yr sentence?

and hearing after hearing he was found guilty/denied, and still you think he would not speak up in court, and not tell his lawyers...
he was only involved with the clean-up?


I think,
Raffaele was either

1) home all night stoned and innocent

or

2) he was right in the middle of the murder.

In reality, for Raffaele as of Aug 12th.

1) Rudy said the murderer is Raffaele.

2) The Prosecution has Raffaele with the bra-clasp DNA and footprints, and
3) Supreme Court found Raffaele with the DNA Knife too as it was his, if your read her report. (and numerous suspicious statements).

4) Micheli sent Raffaele to trial as a Murderer...not a cleanup helper.

Supreme Court:
Even if your DNA is not on your kitchen knife, this cannot only be used against Amanda insofar as it has been certified that the knife came from your house and Meredith never went to your house. Therefore, until we have proof to the contrary, we are assuming that this knife was under your control at all times and that it was used at Meredith's house.

Charge (B)
of the misdemeanour to which articles 110 Penal Code, 4 Statutes 110/1975, of having in complicity amongst themselves carried out of the house of Sollecito, without justified reason, a large knife with sharp point and blade length totalling 31cm (seized at Sollecito’s on 6 November 2007)

I beg to differ.....Raffaele isn't going to get away with a different story such as "clean-up only", not now...not 2yrs later.

You think so? Why would he not tell at least his lawyers or someone this?

[KnoxCase]

What are you thinking about that situation, and why is it so odd to you?

I think its a bizarre coincidence. Don't you?

the timing is what intrigues me.

I think it is such a very rare coincidence, the timing, that the Police show up while Amanda and Raffaele were standing there.

What "if".....the police had shown up in between Amandas 1st trip and the 2nd, for example? Nothing would have happened. The Postal POlice would have found no one home and drove back to the office.

"IF" it truly was they got caught in the middle of cleaning up, they could have finished the job, had the Postal Police not shown up.


Thats a big debate in this case. Did they or did they not call for help/and tell someone about the cottage situation before the postal police showed up?

"if" they did, if they called anyone... before... the police showed up....then this would be in their favor of innocence. imo. right?

"if" they only called someone after the unexpected Police show up ...this could look highly suspicious, like they got caught and unprepared with a full story.

of course no one agrees on the time of arrival because no one agrees on the camera clock, and its basically another confused debate.

Choose your side, whoever you want to win, you agree with that story.

[Emerald]

KnoxCase, we see the same evidence, but come to different conclusions.

Can't really call my decision a 'conclusion'. Other evidence could change my mind. Right now, with the sparse and bent evidence seen/heard, I believe AK is guilty of complicity. Not the actual murder. RS wasn't even there.

One thing is for sure. RS is following his attorney's advice of not speaking about the case. His Family is also showing great respect for the process.

AK can't stop talking about it. Letters and diaries in prison, e-mails prior to incarceration and the inappropriate behavior of her Family are not favorable to AK.

JMO

[KnoxCase]

I agree he's following his lawyers advice.

Raffaele has numerous diary releases, if you search it out.

Not sure if the police leaked them or his lawyer team, as they make Raffaele seem to change his story as much as Amanda, in a negative light, so I'll have to assume the Prosecution leaked the info. as it appears to be a negative leak for the defense.

I agree they seem to be very quiet on the Sollecito team.

Amanda Lawyers are Italian and there's just a lot more anger and hate for her, for some reason. I think its very telling of everyones position.

Amanda gets more negative attention than Rudy.....and it wasn't her DNA inside Meredith.

[n/t]

I agree he's following his lawyers advice.

Raffaele has numerous diary releases, if you search it out.

Not sure if the police leaked them or his lawyer team, as they make Raffaele seem to change his story as much as Amanda, in a negative light, so I'll have to assume the Prosecution leaked the info. as it appears to be a negative leak for the defense.

I agree they seem to be very quiet on the Sollecito team.

Amanda Lawyers are Italian and there's just a lot more anger and hate for her, for some reason. I think its very telling of everyones position.

Amanda gets more negative attention than Rudy.....and it wasn't her DNA inside Meredith.

I don't understand what you mean by Amanda Lawyers are Italian and there's just a lot more anger and hate for her?

What nationality are Rudy and Sollecito's lawyers? And what does being Italian have to do with anything? Are you saying she was charged and being tried for murder because she's American?

Please tell me you're joking.

[Emerald]

When the trial starts again in Sept, what is on the agenda?

More testimony? The verdict?

:confused:

[KnoxCase]

I don't understand what you mean by Amanda Lawyers are Italian and there's just a lot more anger and hate for her?

What nationality are Rudy and Sollecito's lawyers? And what does being Italian have to do with anything? Are you saying she was charged and being tried for murder because she's American?

Please tell me you're joking.

your email doesn't make sense to me?

jmo...
Its obvious the focus on Amanda is much greater, in comparison to Rudy and Raffaele. There's a lot more hateful posts towards Amanda than Rudy or Raffaele, imo. Some public obsession with her for some reason.

A lot of people like to create some delusional perspective she's a mastermind, when there's no evidence to support this.

its media driven, imo. she's a good looking college girl, thats american.

as she said herself, if she had been an Italian or ugly, or both....this case wouldn't even had made the news.

[jaxback]

Why is it so hard to believe that Rudy did this alone? When you add Amanda and Rafaelle to the mix it is so convoluted and makes no sense. Most of the time, the easiest scenario is the real scenario.
(snipped)



I agree that the easiest scenario is usually the correct one. But what I want to know is - since Rudy has already pled, right? - what did he tell the police about what happened? Did he claim that the other two were participants in the murder? And if he did, why would lie about that while admittin ghis own guilt and agreeing to a prison term? :confused:

[Emerald]

I'm not willing to believe the evidence against Rudy, without considering the evidence against AK with the same gravity.

Is AK gettiing the same bad press WorldWide or just in the US?

JMO.... AK brought this bad press on herself. Her demeanor, the jailhouse diaries, the e-mails. The Family sure hasn't helped her case, IMO. AK and her Family don't show a lot of respect for the Italian justice system or the Family of Meridith Kercher.

Impressions matter. That's why there are juries. They all hear/see the same evidence, but can come to different conclusions based on impressions.

What happens when they reconvene in Sept? The verdict or more testimony?

[KnoxCase]

I agree that the easiest scenario is usually the correct one. But what I want to know is - since Rudy has already pled, right? - what did he tell the police about what happened? Did he claim that the other two were participants in the murder? And if he did, why would lie about that while admittin ghis own guilt and agreeing to a prison term? :confused:

while I am a Rudy-Alone vote....your comment is something that makes me stop and with-hold deciding fully.

there are a few really odd things that I don't feel 100% with either.
as I said before the infamous Raffaele stating "oh I poked Meredith with that knife! it was nothing really...or whatever he said to the same bizarre effect.

I mean wtf? and how does a stoned dewd with a new hot chic he's screwing, all of a sudden can't remember if she was with him or not?

but if you believe the lies, are something the two actually said...then one has to wonder Why? Why does someone lie?

but if these so called infamous sayings are more "bull crap from the corrupt interrogations then thats another story.

and so many of the "suggested" prosecutions slanderous things have come to be false-accusations in court....the pile of 10,000 papers is starting to look like a pile of 10,000 "suggested false-accusations".


this case holds my interest for the same reason, its not clear who is telling the truth....even Mignini appears to be corrupt, and Stefoni is now starting to look like she was hiding information adn was caught in a "lie" when she said the Forensic team was flawless....until the Defense somehow found the "comedy film" of them handling the bra-clasp, which is such horrifcially pathectic forensic work....it could be used as a "BAD EXAMPLE" film, or a HOW NOT TO DO A FORENSIC EVIDENCE JOB" film!!!!!!

I literally laugh at this film, it really reminds me of a Monty Python skit or something!!

I mean other than dropping it on the floor and stepping on it, or spilling a coca-cola on the bra-clasp there's not much more they could have done to screw up the evidence.

and I wonder? do they run their DNA lab that way too?

and don't get me started on the delusional theorys Judge MAtteini made calling Patrick a pervert....and then Micheli assuming things that are now found to be totally not true...or unproven? he just made crap up??? like AMANDA HAD TO HAVE LET RUDY IN!!!

well there is no proof of that? not even the prosecution presented that? Micheli just made it up? wtf?

so each time the Defense enters a trial its like their fighting a totally different "scenario" some new Judge dreamed up. Really bizarre. imo

[Lidia]

IMO, Guilty from what I've read about this case.

[iluvmua]

IMO, Guilty from what I've read about this case.

I feel the same way

[KnoxCase]

What evidence do you find most convincing of their guilt?

[lane99]

...why would lie about that while admittin ghis own guilt and agreeing to a prison term? :confused:

He didn't admit his own guilt. He maintains he did not harm the victim in any way.

And he didn't "agree" to a a prison term. He was found guilty at a fast-track trial, and sentenced to 30 years.

His conviction is now being appealed, I believe.

[jaxback]

He didn't admit his own guilt. He maintains he did not harm the victim in any way.

And he didn't "agree" to a a prison term. He was found guilty at a fast-track trial, and sentenced to 30 years.

His conviction is now being appealed, I believe.

Thanks - I thought there was a plea. So what does he claim happened? Is it that there was consensual sex and then, coming out of the bathroom he saw a man fleeing the scene?

[dgfred]

Yep, but his story comes out different several times. Didn't recognize, was an Italian guy, guy with knife, etc... just NOT him, he was busy downloading.

[KnoxCase]

Thanks - I thought there was a plea. So what does he claim happened? Is it that there was consensual sex and then, coming out of the bathroom he saw a man fleeing the scene?

Have you read the Micheli report? It answers your questions.

Rudy's 1st story was he wasn't there at all. see Rudy & Skype message

BAsically he gave testimony he was there around 7pm, no one was home upstairs or downstairs, he went to a friends, he then went to eat some Kabob, spoke to another firend and told he had a date..went back to the cottage and no one was home, as he left Meredith was coming home "approx 9pm". (which is also when Merediths last cell phone call was abruptly cutoff)

He said she let him inside, he drank a little water/juice, Meredith had an issue of money gone, he calmed her talking, they then started heavy petting for about 10-20mintes, he says consensual only (however the autopsy shows bruising which is caused by no lubricated areas) and then they stopped because no condom's, Rudy went to the
bathroom to have diarrhea, he listened to 2 songs on an Ipod and the 3rd one he heard screaming...(approx 4 minutes per song- 9:30pm)

he claims he saw a man standing over Meredith, with a knife in his left hand. the man with knife came at Rudy who backed up not falling due to the clothes rack, then he backtracked to the living room and approached the man with the knife with a chair the man fled.

he stated once he looked out Filomenas window and saw nothing...a following tale he saw a girl up at the driveway near the road with long hair, and then he heard someone below near the entrance of the downstairs apartment.

He grabbed towels and tried to save Meredith. He claims he touched everything. Meredith mentioned "af"

He fled thru the front door leaving it open.

He stated which roads he took, not to be seen as he was covered in blood.

He went home to clean up. 10 minutes approx.

He cleaned up at his house and went to his friends, arrived about 11:30pm , hung out until 12:30 Nov2, went to Velvet club until 3am Nov 2....


On may 15 he added to his statement admitting the shoes were Nike and he'd tossed them in Germany.
He mentioned having seen the lamp in Merediths room.


This is Rudys story per Judge Micheli report.

[KnoxCase]

just thinking of the polls.

as it stands Amanda would be found innocent in the US and Guilty in the Italy courts...

as the difference being the required unanimous vote versus the majority vote. right?

[Emerald]

Who decides the verdict in Italy? The panel of Judges or the jury? I'm confused.

[jimbob]

Looking at the poll now its almost 3 to 1 guilty.Overwhelming result thus far in favor of the guilty verdict.
I believe that to be the right decision.I also voted guilty.

[KnoxCase]

(ANSA) - Perugia, December 22 - Three women and three men have been chosen as jury members for the upcoming trial of two suspects in the murder of British university student Meredith Kercher. The six jury members, all between the ages of 35 and 57, were chosen from an initial pool of 50 Perugia residents and will flank two judges during the trial of Kercher's 21-year-old American flatmate, Amanda Knox, and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 24.

The six jury members, referred to as 'the people's judges' in Italian, will have the ''same weight and the same responsibility'' as the two professional judges in the trial, Judge Giancarlo Massei (and Comodi) said during his assessment of the residents' suitability on Monday.

Rudy Guede, was found guilty and sentenced to 30 years for sexually assaulting and murdering Kercher after opting for a fast-track trial, which is held without a jury. The prosecution claims Kercher was killed when all three suspects tried to force her to participate in ''a perverse group sex game''.

The suspects deny the charges.
***********************************

As I understand it, they all go to a closed door room, and work the vote out, the Majority wins, they don't have to have unanimous in Itlay.

I'm pretty curious myself on how this actually works in this case.

[JD1974]

just thinking of the polls.

as it stands Amanda would be found innocent in the US and Guilty in the Italy courts...

as the difference being the required unanimous vote versus the majority vote. right?

She would have a hung jury, not found innocent.

[jaxback]

just thinking of the polls.

as it stands Amanda would be found innocent in the US and Guilty in the Italy courts...

as the difference being the required unanimous vote versus the majority vote. right?

What are you basing that on? I wouldn't say she would be found innocent in the US based on what I've seen. I think it's possible there would be a mistrial because the jury couldn't come to a verdict, but not guilty?

[KnoxCase]

wikipedia:

A hung jury is generally regarded as the next best thing to an acquittal.

wikipedia:

In the common law tradition, an acquittal formally certifies the innocence of the accused, as far as the criminal law is concerned.
**************

thats all I was referring to.

[KnoxCase]

i think my mistake....it would be a "mistrial" in the US. = hung jury = a non-unanimous vote.

maybe thats politically correct?

average quantity of mistrials, is 2 to 3, as I read it, then the accused is released.

not sure if Italy even has this option though. I think they rule by majority, so there is never a hung jury, aka mistrial.

[KnoxCase]

Italy

The Corte d'Assise is composed by 2 judges and 6 laymen chosen at random among Italian citizens 30 to 65 years old. Only serious crimes like murder can be tried by the Corte d'Assise.

The Corte d'Assise is an Italian court composed of two professional judges, Giudici Togati, and six popular judges, Giudici Popolari. The court has jurisdiction to judge the most serious crimes, such as terrorism, manslaughter and attempts to recreate a Fascist Party. Penalties imposed by the court can include life sentences. The Corte d'Assise doesn't preside over cases involving attempted murder.[1]

Courts of Assise consist of a judicial panel made up of a number of stipendiary judges (giudici togati). In the Court of Assizes and Court of Assizes of Appeal (Corte d'Assise e nella Corte d'Assise d'Appello) the judicial panel consists of stipendiary and popular judges (giudici popolari). The Court of Assizes (Corte d'Assise) has jurisdiction to try crimes carrying a maximum penalty of 24 years in prison or life imprisonment, and other serious crimes. The Prosecution is conducted by the Public Prosecutor at the Court of Assizes (Pubblico Ministero presso la Corte d'Assise).

Decisions are made by the giudici togati and giudici popalari together at a special meeting behind closed doors, named Camera di Consiglio, and the Corte d'Assise is required to publish written explanations of its decisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corte_d%27Assise

[KnoxCase]

COURT OF ASSIZE, AMANDA AND RAFFAELE'S TRIAL, 16 JANUARY, 2009, JUDGE GIANCARLO MASSEI PRESIDING

Giancarlo Massei and Judge Carla Giangamboni


<Three women and three men have been chosen as jury members for the upcoming trial of two suspects in the murder of British university student Meredith Kercher. The six jury members, all between the ages of 35 and 57, were chosen from an initial pool of 50 Perugia residents and will flank two judges>

The College of the Assise Court was already launched. To preside it, there will be the chairman of the criminal section, Giancarlo Massei, which should have. as a side judge, Carla Giangamboni. It is already prepared the list of popular judges who are going to swear in the morning of the first hearing. The trial will be held in the Sala degli Affreschi, in the palace of Justice, in Piazza Matteotti, because of space needing.

[Emerald]

Thanks KnoxCase. I still don't understand the chain of command on the final verdict. Can the official Judges override the Jury? or visa versa?

Has a sentence already been reached in the libel trial of AK? I know the bar owner was awarded compensation, but that was from the Gov't. I'm confused about it all, but it seems to me there is no way in hell AK will leave Italy for a very long time.

[KnoxCase]

Nothing has been decided on the libel case for Amanda.
It is not really a separate case, it's included in the charges with the others A thru F.

I don't know, I wonder too? Will the Judges sway neutral voters?
In typical human situations, people with authority have more of
an "alpha-dog" role. I would think this is no different.

In the end its humans deciding based off their personality and perspective.

I think a Judge could explain the law, but I don't know. I was reading a lot last night and still don't feel real clear on what happens behind the closed doors when they vote.

There will be several charges read. A is the murder charge. Anything other than charge A is not life, I would assume.

(A)
of the crime to which articles 110, 575, 576 paragraph 1(5) Penal Code apply, of having in complicity amongst themselves and with Rudy Hermann Guede, killed Meredith Kercher , by means of strangling and consequent breaking of the hyoid bone and deep lesions to the left anterio-lateral and right lateral regions of the neck, with a weapon with point and length in which head B applies and thereby meta-haemorhaegic shock with a significant asphyxiation component secondary to the blood loss and taking advantage of the nocturnal hour and of the isolated location of the apartment held under lease by the same Kercher and the same Knox, as well as by two Italian girls (Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti), an apartment located in via della Pergola 7, Perugia, committing the act for futile motives, while Guede, with the complicity of the others, was committing the felony of sexual assault

(B)
of the offence to which articles 110 Penal Code, 4 Statutes 110/1975, of having in complicity amongst themselves carried out from the house of Sollecito, without justified reason, a large knife with sharp point and blade long 31cm totalling (seized from Sollecito on 6 November 2007)

(C)
of the crime to which articles 110, 609 (b) and (c) (2) Penal Code apply, of having in complicity amongst themselves and with Rudy Hermann Guede (Guede the main mover, in complicity with the co-accused), forced Meredith Kercher to suffer sexual acts, with manual and/or genital penetration, by means of violence and threats consisting of manoeuvrings of restraint productive of lesions, in particular to the upper limbs and lower limbs and in the vulvar region, as well as in the usage of the knife

(D)
of the crime to which 110, 624 Penal Code apply because in complicity amongst themselves to secure for themselves an unjust profit, in the circumstances of the time and the place that they took possession of the sum of approximately 300 euro; of two credit cards, from Abbey Bank and from Nationwide, both of the United Kingdom; and of two cell phones, the property of Meredith Kercher, removing them from the same she who had been holding them

(E)
of the offence to which 110, 367 and 61(2) Penal Code apply, of having in complicity amongst themselves simulated attempted burglary by break-and-enter into the room of the apartment of via della Pergola 7 occupied by Filomena Romanelli, breaking the glass of the window with a rock taken from the vicinity of the house that came to be left inside the room, close to the window, for the purpose of assuring themselves impunity from the crimes of murder and of sexual assault, attempting to attribute the responsibility to unknown intruders who entered, to that aim, inside the apartment facts having taken place in Perugia, during the night of 1 and 2 November 2007

Amanda Knox, in addition

(F)
of the offence to which articles 81, 368.2 and 61(2) Penal Code apply because with multiple actions carried out under the same criminal design, knowing him innocent, with a claim arising during the course of statements rendered to the Flying Squad and to the Police Headquarters of Perugia on the date of 6 November 2007, falsely accused Diya Lumumba called "Patrick" of the felony of murder in detriment of the young Meredith Kercher, all to the end of obtaining impunity for all and in particular for Rudy Hermann Guede, he also of colour like Lumumba facts having taken place in Perugia on the night between 5 and 6 November 2007

[JD1974]

i think my mistake....it would be a "mistrial" in the US. = hung jury = a non-unanimous vote.

maybe thats politically correct?

average quantity of mistrials, is 2 to 3, as I read it, then the accused is released.

not sure if Italy even has this option though. I think they rule by majority, so there is never a hung jury, aka mistrial.

Look up Orange Taylor, the accused is not always released and the state has the option to retry (and usually do) when there is a hung jury. The only reason a hung jury is the next best thing to a not guilty verdict (for the defendant) is because the only other option is guilty.

[KnoxCase]

another snip..

<The judges will direct the trial before a panel of six citizen jurors, then take part in deliberations and help the jury reach a verdict. Legal observers say there is not necessarily a formal vote in the process; rather, the jury retreats into the deliberating room, then must emerge with an eventual verdict. The positions taken by individual jurors are not made public.>

JD1974,
it doesn't matter on the hung jury for Italy, but yes I agree there are probably many outcomes. I think I read the average is 2 to 3 mistrials before release. but of course if the person is found guilty in the re-trial, their guilty.

but the polls here are 7 guilty, 3 not guilty....in the US that would be a mistrial, or hung jury.
ifthe case was re-tried again and had the same results, it would agina be a mistrial, hung jury....etc..etc..

if this scenario happens about 2-3 times, per the article I read , the accused is generally released. as I understand it. in the US that is.

[KittyMom]

Guilty as charged.

[n/t]

Rudy Guede hired private detectives and appealing. Wants his name cleared.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5g10rJ_a9-c5mvsoxrrQovLPsfkyw

When does the trial resume? Unbelievable that we're already in September.

[KnoxCase]

Rudy. I wonder what he could add? Physical evidence?

I think the trial resumes with Defense 14th.

some article mentioned the defense might want a neutral party to come in, in addition to finishing the defense witnesses.

The defense mom claims to feel rushed a bit.

This case has gone on so long another month doesn't hurt anyone, they should be allowed for a fair uninterrupted defense, imo.

Massei wanted a Oct vote one article said.

Mignini goes on trial again Sept?
<Court dates were set for September and October. Reached by phone after the hearing, Mignini told seattlepi.com that while he is eager for closure on the case, he welcomed the panel's decision to review testimony so thoroughly.>

and Rudys Appeal in Nov 18?

[Emerald]

According to what KnoxCase posted earlier, a different court will be deciding AK's sentence for falsely accusing the bar owner. In that case, she has already been found guilty. The Gov't was found guilty as well and has paid a fine of restitution to the guy (I can never remember his name).

Am I correct in assuming that no matter what happens in this current trial, AK can receive a lengthy sentence for the case in which she has been found guilty of lying about the bar owner?

I hate to keep asking the same question, but it seems the more replies I get, the more confused I become.:unsure:

[jaxback]

Rudy. I wonder what he could add? Physical evidence?

I think the trial resumes with Defense 14th.

some article mentioned the defense might want a neutral party to come in, in addition to finishing the defense witnesses.

The defense mom claims to feel rushed a bit.

This case has gone on so long another month doesn't hurt anyone, they should be allowed for a fair uninterrupted defense, imo.

Massei wanted a Oct vote one article said.

Mignini goes on trial again Sept?
<Court dates were set for September and October. Reached by phone after the hearing, Mignini told seattlepi.com that while he is eager for closure on the case, he welcomed the panel's decision to review testimony so thoroughly.>

and Rudys Appeal in Nov 18?

What is the "defense mom"?

[dgfred]

According to what KnoxCase posted earlier, a different court will be deciding AK's sentence for falsely accusing the bar owner. In that case, she has already been found guilty. The Gov't was found guilty as well and has paid a fine of restitution to the guy (I can never remember his name).

Am I correct in assuming that no matter what happens in this current trial, AK can receive a lengthy sentence for the case in which she has been found guilty of lying about the bar owner?

I hate to keep asking the same question, but it seems the more replies I get, the more confused I become.:unsure:

I don't believe it will be lengthy, maybe just a monetary penalty. This case has been confusing as you know what from the very beginning.

[dgfred]

What is the "defense mom"?

I think maybe like her Italian 'chaperone' for her trial.

[Emerald]

Before the trial ever began and throughout, there was lots of press. Mostly negative towards AK. There has not been much one way or the other since then.

It will be interesting how AK fares in the press when the trial resumes.

[KnoxCase]

What is the "defense mom"?

Its a typo, an incorrect terminology, mis-spelling....:biggrin:

the defense mom= Amandas mom

the mother of Amanda, mentioned she thought the prosecution had all the time they wanted, and now the defense started presenting their side they had the "summer vacation" which pressed them to squeeze in testimony's and now the Judge is quoted as saying he'd like to have the case done by Oct again pressuring the defense to complete their defense testimony of witnesses.

just a concern at this point. the court hasn't blocked or canceled any witnesses yet.

this case is getting confusing!! & interesting-

Prosecutor Mignini Trial was upheld in court and set for Sept/Oct 2009-
Along with the police chief investigating the serial killings Michele Giuttari, Mignini is said to have planted bugging devices in journalists cars and also used his power to question reporters at length for no reason and without charge.

At the trial in Florence prosecutor Luca Turco called for his judicial colleague Mignini to be jailed for ten months while he asked for Giuttari to be given two and half years.

Rudy's Appeal: Nov 18

Not sure when Raffaele and Amanda would get a Appeal set ?

[Emerald]

In Italy, does the prosecution have the right to appeal a verdict?

Is there such a thing a "double jeopardy"?

Since the Gov't has already been found guilty and made to pay a fine in the false accusations against the bar owner, I don't see how AK can get away without any sort of punishment as well. She is the one who told the initial lies.

Seems to me they may be witholding the punishment phase of the libel ruling until the murder trial is over. That's why I think AK is not leaving Italian prison for a very long time. I read somewhere the penalty for the libel could be as much as 25(?) years? Can't remember the exact time, but it was way up there.

KnoxCase, in the beginning of the trial, there was a poster who was familiar with the Italian Justice system. I wish they would come back and help us out here.:thumbup:

JMO

[iluvmua]

In Italy, does the prosecution have the right to appeal a verdict?

Is there such a thing a "double jeopardy"?

Since the Gov't has already been found guilty and made to pay a fine in the false accusations against the bar owner, I don't see how AK can get away without any sort of punishment as well. She is the one who told the initial lies.

Seems to me they may be witholding the punishment phase of the libel ruling until the murder trial is over. That's why I think AK is not leaving Italian prison for a very long time. I read somewhere the penalty for the libel could be as much as 25(?) years? Can't remember the exact time, but it was way up there.

KnoxCase, in the beginning of the trial, there was a poster who was familiar with the Italian Justice system. I wish they would come back and help us out here.:thumbup:

JMO

There is a penalty for lying? 25 or so years in italian prison?

Either way Amanda is done for.

[Emerald]

The trial should resume soon. I'm ready.

[n/t]

The trial should resume soon. I'm ready.

Monday!

Amanda Knox trial to resume with defense experts attacking evidence

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/409964_knox10.html?source=mypi

[Emerald]

Thanks for the article n/t. Very informative.

A Congolese pub owner whom Knox originally blamed, Patrick Lumumba, was unjustly jailed for two weeks, then freed and absolved of any connection to the crime. For that, Knox faces defamation charges and a civil slander suit.

Is the defamation charge civil or criminal? What does Italian law state about the punishment?

[n/t]

Thanks for the article n/t. Very informative.



Is the defamation charge civil or criminal? What does Italian law state about the punishment?

My guess would be civil.

[KnoxCase]

this is about all I have found...

CHARGES in short form...and notes Judge Micheli (Rudy fast track trial, AK and RS hearing to go to trial)

(A) The main charge, to Rudy, Raffaele, Amanda, " murder with the aggravating circumstance of cruelty," carries a life sentence under Italian law. Felony
**Rudy Guilty
(B)and for the "detention and transportation of a weapon" which carries a sentence of 1 to 12 months. misdemeanor
**Rudy not guilty
(C) They were also charged with sexual assault, which carries a sentence of 6 to 12 years, felony
**Rudy Guilty**
(D) and with theft—punishable by a prison sentence of 1 to 6 years.
**Rudy was not found guilty**
(E) In addition, Knox and Sollecito face charges for the "simulation of a crime", for which they face one to three years incarceration, misdemeanor
**Rudy not Guilty

(F) Additionally, Knox has been charged with slander for her allegedly false accusation against a nightclub owner called Patrick Lumumba—a crime that carries a sentence of 6 to 20 years. Misdemeanor
**Court paid Patrick £7,340, he asked for £462,000.
Patricks asking £1m from Knox.



This is something I found, which may not be 100% but it looks closest to what the charges are I could find.

I think Mignini has also filed for a slander charge on Amanda for the Interrogation statements she made. I guess this is common in Italy, like the US. If Amanda and Raffaele are released, they'll file for full reimbursement too and probably slander etc...yadayadayada

[KnoxCase]

KnoxCase, in the beginning of the trial, there was a poster who was familiar with the Italian Justice system. I wish they would come back and help us out here.:thumbup:

JMO

that would be great. there are some really difficult things to grasp!

[KnoxCase]

fyi,...
I was watching a interview wth Knox's dad. He said there are 8 Jurors, if a tie occurs then Judge Massei will be the deciding vote.

But if it's 5 to 3, of the 8 jurors......the majority vote will decide.

[Debb]

I haven't voted on this thread yet. I don't think I know enough about it yet. I was just checking in to see how the trial was going. Anyone know where they are in the case?

[n/t]

I haven't voted on this thread yet. I don't think I know enough about it yet. I was just checking in to see how the trial was going. Anyone know where they are in the case?

I posted a link upthread. It resumes on Monday.

[Emerald]

Thanks for all the info, KnoxCase.

Even if AK found not guilty, it would not negate her guilty charge for the lies and written statements about the bar owner. If I understand it correctly.

What is "simulation of a crime"?

If it is a majority of opinion which rules the verdict, IMO, AK has an uphill battle. The disrespect shown by her Family is most definitely going to be remembered. I don't believe AK herself is coming across as very respectful of Meredith's Family or the judicial process. The e-mails and jailhouse diaries are not working in her favor, either.

It will be easy for the Jury to separate RS from AK, because of the undisputed length of time AK was in the apartment alone and her activities.

IMO, RS's attorney is very shrewd to not dispute the time RS and AK were together. Instead, it seems as though he is focusing on how the time was spent when they were apart that morning. AK has placed herself ALONE at the scene for a quite a while.

JMO

[KnoxCase]

more input of the same: from the media.

And in the end, what the jury thinks might not actually matter. An Italian jury — known as “citizen judges” — does not have the same weight as an American jury. Instead, the two judges that sit with them have the ultimate say as to guilt or innocence. In the case of a hung jury, the presiding judge makes the final decision. He can also overrule the jury’s decision if he does not agree with it.

The defense lawyers now say they will finish up their case by early October. After that, the judge can decide to recall witnesses to clarify points. Or the presiding judge could call for an impartial “super witness,” who will take 60 days to study all the forensic evidence and testify. Then closing arguments are expected to start, which could take as long as six weeks, given the twice-weekly schedule.

[RayStar]

Joe Tapaino was on Geraldo yesterday. GR asked JT if she would be found not guilty. He smiled and said don't go to an Italian jail. I may not have worded this correctly but I sure got the impression that he does not think she will be found not guilty.

[logbump]

Def. request to throw out Knox indictment rejected.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549821,00.html?test=latestnews

[KnoxCase]

Forensic scientist Patrizia Stefanoni, who testified as a prosecution witness last spring, wrote “too low” in English on initial results, assumed to mean that the samples of Kercher’s DNA on the alleged murder weapon—along with Knox’s DNA—did not meet the normal standards. Writing “too low” in English suggests that she was copying a reading directly from the machine, while she was continuing to test the sample.

The implication, according to the defense, is that Stefanoni then had to amplify the tiny sample found on the blade beyond the protocol to find a match to Kercher’s DNA. Why she did that, and who may have ordered her to do so, are troubling questions. The knife evidence has been heavily contested because the sample on the blade was so small it could not be double-tested and because Stefanoni completed the one and only test without defense experts in the laboratory.

The day was not a complete loss for the defense. Their forensic expert, Adriano Taglibracci, testified that the standard protocol in DNA examination requires double testing to prove a match and that Stefanoni made what Taglibracci called intentional errors to mislead the jury. “This sample was so small that there was not enough to double test it,” he told the court. “There are contradictions between what was recorded in the lab report and the court testimony signed by the same person.

Its interesting they make specifications, protocols and then ignore them?:confused:

[Emerald]

What was the point of the first part of the trial? Makes me want to slap that smirk off AK's face. Frankly, I'm wondering if the jury is feeling as insulted by the defense as I am.

JMO

[n/t]

Joe Tapaino was on Geraldo yesterday. GR asked JT if she would be found not guilty. He smiled and said don't go to an Italian jail. I may not have worded this correctly but I sure got the impression that he does not think she will be found not guilty.

Who is Joe Tapaino? An attorney?

[n/t]

The father of Amanda Knox, the American student accused of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy, has given an interview as his daughter's trial resumes.

The court case was adjourned for two months over the summer.

Curt Knox says his daughter believes she is on the 'home stretch' and that she will be back in the US by Christmas.

He was speaking to ABC's Nick Watt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8254851.stm

[n/t]

Amanda Knox's defense knocks DNA evidence

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/410137.html

[RayStar]

Who is Joe Tapaino? An attorney?
OK I misspelled his name. He was Melanie McGuire's attorney. Good looking also.

[RayStar]

What was the point of the first part of the trial? Makes me want to slap that smirk off AK's face. Frankly, I'm wondering if the jury is feeling as insulted by the defense as I am.

JMO
I am Emerald. I just don't see her home by Xmas as her father states she thinks will happen.

[RayStar]

The father of Amanda Knox, the American student accused of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy, has given an interview as his daughter's trial resumes.

The court case was adjourned for two months over the summer.

Curt Knox says his daughter believes she is on the 'home stretch' and that she will be back in the US by Christmas.

He was speaking to ABC's Nick Watt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8254851.stmCurt also complained about his daughter being locked up all summer in a hot jail cell. This was shown on NBC's The Today Show yesterday morning in a taped interviewed.

[Tracian]

I remember this case when it first was covered. Something about the way Amanda and her boyfriend behaved when the crime scene was being processed really bothered me...they were hugging, kissing, basically making out while LE was working the scene.

I do believe that they are guilty.

[Jester]

Forensic scientist Patrizia Stefanoni, who testified as a prosecution witness last spring, wrote “too low” in English on initial results, assumed to mean that the samples of Kercher’s DNA on the alleged murder weapon—along with Knox’s DNA—did not meet the normal standards. Writing “too low” in English suggests that she was copying a reading directly from the machine, while she was continuing to test the sample.

The implication, according to the defense, is that Stefanoni then had to amplify the tiny sample found on the blade beyond the protocol to find a match to Kercher’s DNA. Why she did that, and who may have ordered her to do so, are troubling questions. The knife evidence has been heavily contested because the sample on the blade was so small it could not be double-tested and because Stefanoni completed the one and only test without defense experts in the laboratory.

The day was not a complete loss for the defense. Their forensic expert, Adriano Taglibracci, testified that the standard protocol in DNA examination requires double testing to prove a match and that Stefanoni made what Taglibracci called intentional errors to mislead the jury. “This sample was so small that there was not enough to double test it,” he told the court. “There are contradictions between what was recorded in the lab report and the court testimony signed by the same person.

Its interesting they make specifications, protocols and then ignore them?:confused:

<my bold.
"Defense lawyers say some documentation supporting the attribution of DNA samples that prosecutors say link the defendants to the case were not made available to the defense in a timely manner.

But Presiding Judge Giancarlo Massei rejected the defense request and ruled that proceedings should go on. He argued that defense consultants were present when the DNA tests were carried out by forensic experts and said relevant documents had been made available a month and a half ago, suggesting that defense teams had enough time to review the DNA findings.

[Jester]

I remember this case when it first was covered. Something about the way Amanda and her boyfriend behaved when the crime scene was being processed really bothered me...they were hugging, kissing, basically making out while LE was working the scene.

I do believe that they are guilty.

This picture: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7828140.stm

I believe this was taken at the time the police were investigating the scene. This was also taken shortly after Amanda claimed that she showered and blow dried her hair in the bathroom with feces in the toilet. The problem with that is that her hair looks more "done" while she's in prison than it does in the linked photo.

[Jester]

Curt also complained about his daughter being locked up all summer in a hot jail cell. This was shown on NBC's The Today Show yesterday morning in a taped interviewed.

That is the sad consequence of lying to police during a murder investigation, and being arrested for murder in a foreign country. Amanda is in a very bad situation, and her actions have done little to help her escape her fate. Another problem she has is that if she is found guilty, it's not like she can hire a private investigator to find the real killer. Rudy has already been tried and convicted, and Amanda's problem is that police believe there was more than one murderer. That's not exactly her only problem, the lying, false accusations, voluntary statement, actions following the murder, and DNA are also problems.

[Jester]

I am Emerald. I just don't see her home by Xmas as her father states she thinks will happen.

I doubt she'll be home for another 30 years, and when she is released everything she earns will be turned over to those whose lives have been ruined.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215133

[Jester]

Amanda Knox's defense knocks DNA evidence

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/410137.html

Shouldn't this have been raised in cross examination? I don't remember anymore if it was, but maybe it was and this was an attempt to have the trial halted based on that cross examination. I did read that the indictment was in part, not entirely, based on DNA so even if there are some doubts about some of the DNA, it's not really a reason to assume that the trial should be stopped. It sounds like Amanda's lawyer was making an attempt to get her out of the situation, and the family became very optimistic - although I can't imagine why given the big picture.

"Tagliabracci raised doubts about several of the DNA results presented by Stefanoni last May and pointed out missing data, potential protocol missteps and at least one glaring inconsistency.

Specifically, he took Stefanoni to task for incomplete documentation of her scientific process and even produced a daily registry from the machine that detected Knox's and the victim's DNA on the knife and showed where Stefanoni had handwritten "too low" four times.

"It could be contamination of the laboratory. It could have been anything," Tagliabracci said. "''Too low' means it should not have been used for analysis."

He also pointed out contradictions between the results and what Stefanoni actually wrote in her technical report. Specifially, Stefanoni wrote that a mattress cover from the downstairs apartment had tested positive for cat blood and negative for human DNA, when the actual results showed a positive result for human DNA."

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/410137.html

[Jester]

Who is Joe Tapaino? An attorney?

Could you mean Joe Tacopina? He was the NY lawyer for Joran van der Sloot.

"Tacopina is acting as an unpaid consultant for Amanda Knox, the Seattle student arrested in Italy after the notorious "extreme sex" murder of Knox's British roommate, Meredith Kercher."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/118834

[Jester]

What was the point of the first part of the trial? Makes me want to slap that smirk off AK's face. Frankly, I'm wondering if the jury is feeling as insulted by the defense as I am.

JMO

In the first part of the trial, the prosecution did a very good job of implying that Amanda was involved in the murder, that she had lied about her actions the morning after the murder, that she falsely implicated an innocent man and left him to rot in jail for two weeks until he could prove he wasn't involved, that she knew Rudy and had met him 3-4 times in the short time that she was in Perugia (including at private parties), that she was fired from her job for flirting with customers, that she had several "hook ups" with strangers, that she used drugs frequently, that she and Meredith didn't really get along, that Amanda bought cleaning supplies the morning after the murder and left the receipt at Rafaeles, that blood evidence in the home had been cleaned up and needed luminol to be visible, and that she did cartwheels and the splits to entertain the nice policemen at the police station while Rafaele was being interrogated. She also had an opportunity to respond to questions from the prosecution, and stated that there was no blood in the sink or toilet before the murder. There was blood, including her DNA in the sink (I think it was the sink) after the murder. The only conclusion is that it was put there during the murder. If she was inclined to lie, then the blood in the bathroom would have been a better thing to lie about ... that is, she should have said that it was there before the day of the murder.

I don't think the defense has done anything to counter prosecution evidence. Even efforts to claim that Amanda was a straight laced honor student failed when news of prior police fines for rowdy parties in Seattle became known ... that, and her numerous hook ups with strangers after she arrived in Italy. The defense has relied on accusing all parties of incompetence or mishandling evidence and that appears to be it.

[Jester]

Just realized I forgot to add the link for this quote in post #89 above:

"Defense lawyers say some documentation supporting the attribution of DNA samples that prosecutors say link the defendants to the case were not made available to the defense in a timely manner.

But Presiding Judge Giancarlo Massei rejected the defense request and ruled that proceedings should go on. He argued that defense consultants were present when the DNA tests were carried out by forensic experts and said relevant documents had been made available a month and a half ago, suggesting that defense teams had enough time to review the DNA findings.

According to the prosecutors, Knox's DNA was found on the handle of a knife that might have been used in the slaying, while Kercher's DNA was found on the blade. The knife was found at Sollecito's apartment."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32836765/ns/world_news-europe/

[Emerald]

I doubt she'll be home for another 30 years, and when she is released everything she earns will be turned over to those whose lives have been ruined.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215133

That's the way I see it, too, Jester. Even if by some miracle AK isn't charged with any culpability in the murder, there is the libel charge that will get her for a very long time. The Gov't has already been found guilty and fined in that case. Impossible to see how AK will get away with it.

Frankly, I don't see RS being found guilty of anything. AK was in that apartment alone, by her own admission for enough time to have collaborated in some way on the crime coverup. I believe she has much more peripheral knowledge than we've heard.

Haven't heard much of RS's defense. Seems all the focus has been on AK. Her Family is not doing her any favors.

JMO

[KnoxCase]

I'm curious how would you explain the absence of DNA for Amanda and Raffaele in the crime scene (other than the bra clasp and knife)?

No hair , no fingerprints, no footprints , etc..etc...

It was supposedly such a violent murder, in such close quarters?

I think its a hard question to explain away.


But I'm no CSI specialist either. I would expect there would be as much DNA of them as there was Rudy.


Did they not test enough items and missed it? Did they get one or two items and stop; thinking it was case closed and didn't look any further?

Rudy dna and footprints are abundant, as I would expect with a amateur murderer. Like OJ's first one, sloppy, messy...etc..

Where is all the evidence on Amanda and Raffaele?

[KnoxCase]

In the first part of the trial, the prosecution did a very good job of implying that Amanda was involved in the murder,
that she had lied about her actions the morning after the murder,

that she falsely implicated an innocent man and left him to rot in jail for two weeks until he could prove he wasn't involved,
This is debated. Only the Interrogation film would prove this. (and that's not going to happen)

that she knew Rudy and had met him 3-4 times in the short time that she was in Perugia (including at private parties),
Meredith met him, the guys downstairs knew him best, Amanda met him. There was no evidence of any kind they were friends, or the Prosecution would surely have had a field day. Its another reason Amanda wanted her emails and hardrive to show there was no communication to Rudy. Rudy was invited to the cottage by the guys downstairs. But there is no evidence Amanda even talked to him alone, none. Pure speculation and fantasy she knew him any more than Meredith.

that she was fired from her job for flirting with customers,
Partially true. Not fired. She was still talking to Patrick until after their incarceration. She still worked for him at the same salary, but was handing out flyers the last days. As I read it.

that she had several "hook ups" with strangers,
This was a sad trick played on her from the police while in prison. They told her she had AIDS's and then confiscated her notes. Police are to be held in higher standards, but it appears not in this case. She had sex with 7 people I think, and that was her entire lifetime, not as the media portrayed her. JMO...everyone's got their own "sex" rules...some are free, some are very puritan and strict.

that she used drugs frequently,
on occasion, marijuana
that she and Meredith didn't really get along,
not true per the pictures and emails and the tattoo Meredith gave Amanda...

that Amanda bought cleaning supplies the morning after the murder and left the receipt at Raffaeles,
This was totally found out to be false. The cleaning lady testified and the bleach had been there forever and was untouched, same levels in the jugs. Also the receipts were form a totally different date. Its why it was dropped in court.

that blood evidence in the home had been cleaned up and needed luminol to be visible,
yes....I think so. But Rudy said he'd ran into that bathroom twice to get towels and at that point was soaked in blood.Some DNA debate but not as much importance as the Knife is to this case.

and that she did cartwheels and the splits to entertain the nice policemen at the police station while Raffaele was being interrogated.
very odd...but the murder didn't happen in the police station. I can see how it would draw negative attention from others mourning.

She also had an opportunity to respond to questions from the prosecution, and stated that there was no blood in the sink or toilet before the murder. There was blood, including her DNA in the sink (I think it was the sink) after the murder.
I agree, she took showers and washed her hair daily, like most US people do. She wasn't lying and she said it didn't seem anything but odd the Nov 2, other than some tiny blood specks. The pictures of Nov 2, before the Pink Luminol was smeared everywhere, shows the bathroom looks fairly clean and is what she would be describing. Raffaele described the blood as tiny flicks and specs. The pictures have confused a lot of people, because the post luminol pictures look like massive amounts of blood smeared in pink everywhere.

The only conclusion is that it was put there during the murder.The defense is the murder didn't occur in the bathroom...Amanda lived there. Even the Forensic people know your DNA is everywhere, in the sink in the drain....everywhere. And I don't think the DNA was blood...but its to be debated this week I'd imagine. Its DNA week.

If she was inclined to lie, then the blood in the bathroom would have been a better thing to lie about ... that is, she should have said that it was there before the day of the murder. yes..the odd responses are ripe in this case.

I don't think the defense has done anything to counter prosecution evidence. I kind of agree, they seem to present the same evidence to a different Judge who sides with the prosecution. Even efforts to claim that Amanda was a straight laced honor student failed when news of prior police fines for rowdy parties in Seattle became known ... that, and her numerous hook ups with strangers after she arrived in Italy. I think this is all Lame....to me it shows the Prosecution chose weak high school beer parties and tried to create character assassination. STICK TO THE CRIME SCENE!! LOL......geeez,,,,what next she took her sisters hair brush when she was 4?

The defense has relied on accusing all parties of incompetence or mishandling evidence and that appears to be it.This doesn't seem to be working with the Judges. I think they will win a 3rd party= decision making team to end this debate. If I was Massei I'd be glad to have someone neutral end the arguing. Massei is not a DNA expert.

it was nice talking with you! lol.... excuse the poor spelling and grammar.

crazy case. from fish blood to interrogations that have Patrick, Amanda, Raffaele, Preston, Spezi all saying the same thing....the Perugia police deny it. (maybe another third party? interrogate the interrogators?):thumbsup:

I'm still a lone wolf= Rudy vote, a minority around here!:biggrin:

[RayStar]

Could you mean Joe Tacopina? He was the NY lawyer for Joran van der Sloot.

"Tacopina is acting as an unpaid consultant for Amanda Knox, the Seattle student arrested in Italy after the notorious "extreme sex" murder of Knox's British roommate, Meredith Kercher."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/118834My best memory of Joe T. is his defending Melanie McGuire. She grabbed him when the verdict was read.

[n/t]

Could you mean Joe Tacopina? He was the NY lawyer for Joran van der Sloot.

"Tacopina is acting as an unpaid consultant for Amanda Knox, the Seattle student arrested in Italy after the notorious "extreme sex" murder of Knox's British roommate, Meredith Kercher."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/118834

ahhh ok. I didn't know he is an upaid consultant for Amanda Knox. Interesting. Thank you.

[HALE 2d GNAW]

it was nice talking with you! lol.... excuse the poor spelling and grammar.

crazy case. from fish blood to interrogations that have Patrick, Amanda, Raffaele, Preston, Spezi all saying the same thing....the Perugia police deny it. (maybe another third party? interrogate the interrogators?):thumbsup:

I'm still a lone wolf= Rudy vote, a minority around here!:biggrin:


You are not lone wolf unless you wannabe. LOL

If AK was really doing cartwheels at the po-po station, she has some serious mental issues that need to be DX.

Due to her own actions, Knox doesn't lend sympathy or remorse to this tragic situation

I've never seen a person get better looking while in jail, but she has IMO. I never got the "Foxy" in Knoxy. She is kind of growing on me. Yikes!

Italian officials currently in charge somehow consider trace DNA evidence major proof of AK's involvment in the brutual, violent homicide of MK. It boggles the mind. I do believe that IF she is convicted, it will not hold up on appeal. Not sure if this is my wishful thinking b/c she is innocent or if Amanda is connig us all :cofused:

I can understand and appreciate that the ITAL legal system is very diff trial system from ours. However, could the the '2 month break here' and 'week or two holiday there ever favor AK? I just don't see how Raffe's DNA is only a dropplet on MK's bra clasp and that Amanda's is only on an alleged drop on a knife. No footprints or fingerprints from either, is that right? I can certainly see that sex game gone wrong seems to sound so much more newsworthy than the what is kinown IMO :scared:

[Jester]

That's the way I see it, too, Jester. Even if by some miracle AK isn't charged with any culpability in the murder, there is the libel charge that will get her for a very long time. The Gov't has already been found guilty and fined in that case. Impossible to see how AK will get away with it.

Frankly, I don't see RS being found guilty of anything. AK was in that apartment alone, by her own admission for enough time to have collaborated in some way on the crime coverup. I believe she has much more peripheral knowledge than we've heard.

Haven't heard much of RS's defense. Seems all the focus has been on AK. Her Family is not doing her any favors.

JMO

The only strong evidence against RS is the bra clasp DNA, and there's a good argument to be made that it's not reliable because of the way it was discovered and handled. Even the knife in his apartment only connects Amanda and Meredith. It's arguable that Amanda put the knife there to implicate RS or to hide the evidence. RS has against him the lies as well, as there's some question about his computer use and when the phones were turned on. I don't think it's going to go well for either of them, but it's possible that in final arguments RS will completely distance himself from Amanda.

[Jester]

I'm curious how would you explain the absence of DNA for Amanda and Raffaele in the crime scene (other than the bra clasp and knife)?

No hair , no fingerprints, no footprints , etc..etc...

It was supposedly such a violent murder, in such close quarters?

I think its a hard question to explain away.


But I'm no CSI specialist either. I would expect there would be as much DNA of them as there was Rudy.


Did they not test enough items and missed it? Did they get one or two items and stop; thinking it was case closed and didn't look any further?

Rudy dna and footprints are abundant, as I would expect with a amateur murderer. Like OJ's first one, sloppy, messy...etc..

Where is all the evidence on Amanda and Raffaele?

"During testimony in court Friday Lorenzo Rinaldi, director of the print identity department of the Italian Police, said that a bloody footprint found on the rug in the bathroom across from the room where murdered British exchange student Meredith Kercher's body was found was compatible with that of Raffaele Sollecito.

Rinaldi also testified that two latent bare footprints highlighted by luminol, a chemical used to detect blood, are compatible with Amanda Knox's foot. Another bare footprint highlighted by luminol, found in the hallway, was positively identified as belonging to Sollecito. "

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/International/story?id=7538538&page=1

[iluvmua]

There is a VERY slim chance that Amanda will be found not guilty.

if Amanda says that Meredith was her friend, you would think she would show more respect for the deceased and her poor family.

Meredith is the REAL victim here, not Miss Knox.

I think her family wants everyone to believe that Amanda is the real victim and not poor Meredith.

[Emerald]

JMO

The lack of decorum shown by AK and Family is working as much against her as the physical evidence. I realize it should have nothing to do with the verdict. But when much of the evidence is how AK acted before and after the crime, it will also be considered how she and her Family acted in the court.

I'm still leaning towards AK having nothing to do with the actual murder. But peripherally guilty. There is some reason AK pointedly accused the bar owner but said nothing (to this day from what I can glean) about RG.

[KnoxCase]

"During testimony in court Friday Lorenzo Rinaldi, director of the print identity department of the Italian Police, said that a bloody footprint found on the rug in the bathroom across from the room where murdered British exchange student Meredith Kercher's body was found was compatible with that of Raffaele Sollecito.

Rinaldi also testified that two latent bare footprints highlighted by luminol, a chemical used to detect blood, are compatible with Amanda Knox's foot. Another bare footprint highlighted by luminol, found in the hallway, was positively identified as belonging to Sollecito. "

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/International/story?id=7538538&page=1

Yes but the defense experts, are saying the opposite, of course.
Its a stalemate......Prosecution vs Defense.

Here's the other side of the coin...

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/footprint.html

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/179047.asp


Why I think its Rudys footprint.
1) Rudy admitted to going into that bathroom!! twice!!
the second time he was covered in blood, he said himself, during this attempt to apply the towels to Merediths neck. per Judge Michelis report.

2) #1 explains the flicked/specks of blood? It explains Merediths blood being present, an admission! It is logical to Rudys story, of a hurried mess, flicks, specks, he ran.

3) Amanda reported things to her mom and Filomena before the Postal Police showed up, she called friends and family,
Rudy didn't report anything to anyone, not Nov 2,3,4,5,6,7,8......never (until jailed, then he talked).

4) Also this is key, there is Amanda DNA in her own bathroom. Its her Bathroom. If she was hiding something she'd cleaned it up most likely.
It wasn't Amandas footprint anyway....more like Rudys or Raffaele's.

Why Not Raffaele footprint?

1) he didn't admit to going into the bathroom with blood all over him, twice!

2) Again the big question is, How come there is no Raffaele footprints in the crime scene/bedroom, no fingerprints, no hair etc...nothing.
And then a magical bloody footprint in the bathroom (which isn't the crime scene anyway) and only one? hard to imagine, doesn't work for me.

Ok, the bra clasp is a major piece against Raffaele....
but there's supposedly 2 or more other peoples DNA on it!? How can they say it was clean and a flawless forensic work?

Here's the Forensic film of the Bra Clasp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

you judge. Is it flawless work?


3) This statement by Knox's dad, will be applied to every piece of accusation, I agree...I wonder too?

How could anyone, in such a amateurish, bloody murder scene, not leave anything...not a hair, not a shoeprint, not a fingerprint, not a motive in that bedroom, no bloody clothes, no bloody socks, shoes, residues at his apartment the very next day......? Could amateurs clean up that precisley leaving all of Rudys DNA and evidence and precisly remove their own in less than 15hrs time?

Its impossible, isn't it?

[n/t]

The footprint evidence explained very well here citing reliable sources. With all due respect to Mr. Knox, his opinion is biased and understadably so. Evidence can be cleaned away in 15 hours time. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side you're on, criminals do make mistakes and are caught. I guess the defendents didn't expect luminol would be used?
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C308/

[Jester]

Yes but the defense experts, are saying the opposite, of course.
Its a stalemate......Prosecution vs Defense.

Here's the other side of the coin...

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/footprint.html

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/179047.asp


Why I think its Rudys footprint.
1) Rudy admitted to going into that bathroom!! twice!!
the second time he was covered in blood, he said himself, during this attempt to apply the towels to Merediths neck. per Judge Michelis report.

2) #1 explains the flicked/specks of blood? It explains Merediths blood being present, an admission! It is logical to Rudys story, of a hurried mess, flicks, specks, he ran.

3) Amanda reported things to her mom and Filomena before the Postal Police showed up, she called friends and family,
Rudy didn't report anything to anyone, not Nov 2,3,4,5,6,7,8......never (until jailed, then he talked).

4) Also this is key, there is Amanda DNA in her own bathroom. Its her Bathroom. If she was hiding something she'd cleaned it up most likely.
It wasn't Amandas footprint anyway....more like Rudys or Raffaele's.

Why Not Raffaele footprint?

1) he didn't admit to going into the bathroom with blood all over him, twice!

2) Again the big question is, How come there is no Raffaele footprints in the crime scene/bedroom, no fingerprints, no hair etc...nothing.
And then a magical bloody footprint in the bathroom (which isn't the crime scene anyway) and only one? hard to imagine, doesn't work for me.

Ok, the bra clasp is a major piece against Raffaele....
but there's supposedly 2 or more other peoples DNA on it!? How can they say it was clean and a flawless forensic work?

Here's the Forensic film of the Bra Clasp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

you judge. Is it flawless work?


3) This statement by Knox's dad, will be applied to every piece of accusation, I agree...I wonder too?

How could anyone, in such a amateurish, bloody murder scene, not leave anything...not a hair, not a shoeprint, not a fingerprint, not a motive in that bedroom, no bloody clothes, no bloody socks, shoes, residues at his apartment the very next day......? Could amateurs clean up that precisley leaving all of Rudys DNA and evidence and precisly remove their own in less than 15hrs time?

Its impossible, isn't it?

It's not surprising that the defense is attempting to point fingers in other directions or, as per all the other evidence, claim it's false. We've already discussed the obvious fact that Rudy did not clean up after himself. It's also a fact that someone did clean up the bloody footprints, as there's no other explanation as to why luminol was needed to make the footprints visible. Therefore, someone cleaned up some of the evidence, and deliberately left evidence implicating Rudy (like the unflushed toilet). Amanda was in the house and 15 hours is plenty of time to clean up a murder scene. Footprints are considered to be consistent with someone's foot, or not. The footprints that were found have been identified as consistent with Amanda's and Rafaelle's footprints. There's no way that the footprint of Amanda could be confused with that of Rudy because their feet are different sizes.

You initially said that there were no footprints, but there are footprints and there is evidence of someone trying to clean up the footprints. Next, it seems you want to argue that although there are footprints, they must belong to someone else. If they belong to Rudy, then it's a very simple task to take Rudy's footprint, put it beside the photos of the luminol evidence, and demonstrate that police made a mistake. Apparently that is not possible, as that evidence has not been presented.

I agree that Rafaelle's lawyer can make a strong argument that the bra clasp evidence could have been contaminated in the bedroom, but one does have to wonder what his DNA was doing in the bedroom in the first place.

[Jester]

JMO

The lack of decorum shown by AK and Family is working as much against her as the physical evidence. I realize it should have nothing to do with the verdict. But when much of the evidence is how AK acted before and after the crime, it will also be considered how she and her Family acted in the court.

I'm still leaning towards AK having nothing to do with the actual murder. But peripherally guilty. There is some reason AK pointedly accused the bar owner but said nothing (to this day from what I can glean) about RG.

Amanda's accusations against Patrick (bar owner) certainly raise questions about her guilt. Innocent people don't implicate other innocent people. If, as she claims, she was manipulated by police, then her voluntary statement should have stated in no uncertain terms that Patrick was innocent and that she was coerced into implicating him. Instead, she let her accusations stand and did not say one word about her false allegations until after he was released from jail. Only then did she express some relief that he was released.

As you say, her actions around the time of the murder do not help her case.

[Debb]

Is it uncontroverted that Amanda played around doing cartwheels as police questioned her boyfriend? Do we know this for sure? Does she admit to it? Does she offer any explanation for it?

[n/t]

Is it uncontroverted that Amanda played around doing cartwheels as police questioned her boyfriend? Do we know this for sure? Does she admit to it? Does she offer any explanation for it?

I don't recall if she did but her father did.

====

Knox also played down his daughter's purported bizarre behavior at the police station.


"It probably is a kid who's never been exposed to something as gruesome as this. Maybe it's her way of dealing with that," he said. "In a conversation with me she would stretch to her toes, you just get used to that."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29437038/

[Jester]

Is it uncontroverted that Amanda played around doing cartwheels as police questioned her boyfriend? Do we know this for sure? Does she admit to it? Does she offer any explanation for it?

Amanda is not, and was not, a teenager exhibiting restlessness. At the time, she was a grown woman who was responsible enough to attend an overseas program of study. There's no denying it, but some have tried to re-interpret Amanda's actions as those of a teenager.

"Accounts of Knox doing splits and cartwheels as she awaited questioning by the police are a distortion of the behavior of a teenager exhibiting restlessness"

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

[n/t]

Here's another link from Seattle PI

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/163175.asp

[Jester]

I don't recall if she did but her father did.

====

Knox also played down his daughter's purported bizarre behavior at the police station.


"It probably is a kid who's never been exposed to something as gruesome as this. Maybe it's her way of dealing with that," he said. "In a conversation with me she would stretch to her toes, you just get used to that."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29437038/

That's unfortunate. Dad should have explained to his daughters that there is protocol when having conversations with people. Again, an attempt to describe Amanda as a kid, a child. She was grown up enough to study abroad, so she's grown up enough to respect officials in foreign countries.

[n/t]

That's unfortunate. Dad should have explained to his daughters that there is protocol when having conversations with people. Again, an attempt to describe Amanda as a kid, a child. She was grown up enough to study abroad, so she's grown up enough to respect officials in foreign countries.

I'd pooping my pants if I was being questioned for the murder of my roommate and I knew I was innocent. Not Amanda. Cool and collected doing cartwheels for the cops. The same cops who she accused later of mistreating her. :unsure:

[Debb]

Well, it certainly is odd IMO. I have read a few things about this case and have seen her family members and friends on tv in interviews. I have no confidence in their protests of her innocence. They can't know that. No one really knows what another person is capable of no matter how welll you think you know them.

I tend not to view post crime behavior of a defendant as an idication of guilit, but this is really bizarre. I can't imagine a 10 year old conducting themself that way under similar circumstances. Does she have a personality disorder?

I have read many of the posts here and wish I had time to review more of the articles. It is certainly a mystery.

[Emerald]

Manners and decorum are taught to even thhe youngest children. If AK was so young and immature as the Father and Mother want us to believe, why in the hell did they support her to live alone in a foreign country?

These statements by the Father are exactly what I was talking about not doing AK a bit of good. Her Family is trying to say OOPS! Like it's just and indiscretion of youth. Not showing a bit of sympathy for the family of the victim. I understand the dynamic of their situation is to fight for the life of their own daughter at this point. But, the constant media appearances with not a single word of sympathy for the Kercher Family is WRONG.

RS's attorney seems to be allowing AK to paint herself into a corner. Thus the jury's vitriol will be directed away from RS. The less said the better has been proved by AK and her Family's constant chatter.

[Jester]

I'd pooping my pants if I was being questioned for the murder of my roommate and I knew I was innocent. Not Amanda. Cool and collected doing cartwheels for the cops. The same cops who she accused later of mistreating her. :unsure:

Good point. I think most of us would be very concerned if we found ourselves in a police station in a foreign country in relation to a murder. Even teenagers would be very concerned.

[Jester]

Manners and decorum are taught to even thhe youngest children. If AK was so young and immature as the Father and Mother want us to believe, why in the hell did they support her to live alone in a foreign country?

These statements by the Father are exactly what I was talking about not doing AK a bit of good. Her Family is trying to say OOPS! Like it's just and indiscretion of youth. Not showing a bit of sympathy for the family of the victim. I understand the dynamic of their situation is to fight for the life of their own daughter at this point. But, the constant media appearances with not a single word of sympathy for the Kercher Family is WRONG.

RS's attorney seems to be allowing AK to paint herself into a corner. Thus the jury's vitriol will be directed away from RS. The less said the better has been proved by AK and her Family's constant chatter.

One almost has to wonder if Amanda's lawyer hasn't considered Amanda guilty all along, and is just going through the motions. The one thing he should have done, and didn't do, was to inform the family about how to dress and present themselves in court. The family even has a publicity person ... still that person didn't tell the family what was appropriate. I'm assuming they weren't told, but maybe they were told and decided to do things there own way ... hard to know for sure.

[Emerald]

It's also been reported AK's sister had to be escorted out of court, because minors are not allowed in due to the graphic nature of the evidence and testimony. Besides the times they had to be asked to dress properly.

I agree about this attorney, Jester. Doesn't make sense he would not be a better adviser to the Family. But, then, maybe AK's Family is ignoring the attorney, too. Ugly American, entitled kind of behavior.

Joe Tacopina is licensed to practice in Italy. At least that's what I read somewhere. He inferred AK hasn't got a chance of a not guilty verdict. Didn't go into detail about whether it was about the evidence or situation of Italian court system.

[jaxback]

I don't recall if she did but her father did.

====

Knox also played down his daughter's purported bizarre behavior at the police station.


"It probably is a kid who's never been exposed to something as gruesome as this. Maybe it's her way of dealing with that," he said. "In a conversation with me she would stretch to her toes, you just get used to that."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29437038/

Oh please! What "kid" has been exposed to something so gruesome? Would they all do cartwheels? Would any of them do cartwheels?

As to the stretching to her toes in the middle of a conversation, all that description does is paint her as totally self-involved, rude and immature. None of which makes her a "kid" imo!

[n/t]

Good point. I think most of us would be very concerned if we found ourselves in a police station in a foreign country in relation to a murder. Even teenagers would be very concerned.

I've often compared her behaviour to Casey Anthony. I honestly believe Amanda thought she could fool law enforcement and BS her way out. She thought she had everything under control including cleaning up the crime scene. I posted this about Casey Anthony and I believe Amanda fits right into the same profile, imo.

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

[Jester]

It's also been reported AK's sister had to be escorted out of court, because minors are not allowed in due to the graphic nature of the evidence and testimony. Besides the times they had to be asked to dress properly.

I agree about this attorney, Jester. Doesn't make sense he would not be a better adviser to the Family. But, then, maybe AK's Family is ignoring the attorney, too. Ugly American, entitled kind of behavior.

Joe Tacopina is licensed to practice in Italy. At least that's what I read somewhere. He inferred AK hasn't got a chance of a not guilty verdict. Didn't go into detail about whether it was about the evidence or situation of Italian court system.

Joe Tacopina can safely say anything he wants in NY ... but if he wants to stand behind his words, he should head for the courtroom in Perugia and say them. It's not possible that everyone who stands trial in Italy is found guilty, so maybe Joe Tacopina thinks Amanda is guilty.

I had forgotten about that. The family didn't seem to know that Amanda's 14 year old sister, a child, does not belong at a murder trial where a female victim was violently attacked, raped, and then allowed to bleed out. I have to wonder if the family met with Amanda's lawyer at all.

Here's a link to Amanda's family at court:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199111/Revealed-Foxy-Knoxys-sisters-posing-happily-macabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

If it were my family, I'd be taking my cues from Rafaelle's lawyer:
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fuueBh1EZ7xq/610x.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.daylife.com/photo/0fuueBh1EZ7xq&usg=__1jxb6bj7WO5ZsWfYMHKH8kM9DhA=&h=360&w=610&sz=83&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=wtWNfwNzJztq8M:&tbnh=80&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Giulia%2BBuongiorno%2522%2Blawye r%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://nourishingobscurity.blogspot.com/2009/09/meredith-kercher-will-she-be-avenged.html


A good link...according to this article. Prison guards call Amanda 'BAMBI'

[n/t]

Hi Ironside,

First time I hear of her being called Bambi. lol

Also, I don't recall Meredith having a boyfriend. Do you happen to have a link handy? If not I'll go research.

BTW, I totally agree with your opinion. It's interesting how the case/story revolved around Amanda. I wonder how different it would have been if she had just kept her mouth shut and hadn't written that very bizarre diary. IMO, it only reinforces the psycopath theory.

Also, her family doing interviews and in the spotlight doesn't help her case either especially her dad.

[n/t]

http://nourishingobscurity.blogspot.com/2009/09/meredith-kercher-will-she-be-avenged.html


A good link...according to this article. Prison guards call Amanda 'BAMBI'

Did you remove the other link or do I need more coffee? My earlier post was referring to your comments. LOL

[IRONSIDE 2]

Apologise N/T I think it is I that needs more coffee. Posted other link in error. Now i cannot remember what other link was...:w00t::w00t:

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1198365/Meredith-suspect-Foxy-Knoxy-known-Bambi-jail-guards.html


Some more info on Bambi...will check for a link regarding Merediths alleged boyfriend.

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-494740/Merediths-boyfriend-reveals-moment-suspected-Foxy-Knoxy-killed-lover.html


It seems so, he is Italian and his name is Giacomo Silenzi

[IRONSIDE 2]

"I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her.....Giacomo Silenzi


xxxx

I know we cannot go too much on newspaper reports but interesting if this was the case. Were they not good friends afterall.

[Jester]

http://nourishingobscurity.blogspot.com/2009/09/meredith-kercher-will-she-be-avenged.html


A good link...according to this article. Prison guards call Amanda 'BAMBI'

Excellent article. Thanks for the link.

The description of climbing the jail bars and singing at the top of her lungs ... very strange ... brings up images of the zoo. It also clearly describes the disconnect between Amanda's actions and what she would like people to believe.

[Jester]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1198365/Meredith-suspect-Foxy-Knoxy-known-Bambi-jail-guards.html


Some more info on Bambi...will check for a link regarding Merediths alleged boyfriend.

I remember reading that she was casually seeing one of the guys that lived in the apartment below. They were all away that weekend.

It's an interesting point that the attack on Meredith happened when no one was home downstairs, and the two Italian roommates of Amanda and Meredith were away. Whoever murdered Meredith was either taking a really big chance by attacking her where people could have been home downstairs and roommates could have walked in at any moment, or someone knew that no one would be home.

[Jester]

"I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her.....Giacomo Silenzi


xxxx

I know we cannot go too much on newspaper reports but interesting if this was the case. Were they not good friends afterall.

Meredith's friends said that Meredith complained about Amanda not pulling her weight in the house, and bringing different strange men around.

Testimony from Meredith's friends at trial:

"Robyn Butterworth, a friend of Ms Kercher’s from Northampton, described waiting to talk to officers in Perugia police station soon after the discovery of Ms Kercher’s body. “I found Amanda’s behaviour very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her,” Ms Butterworth told the packed court room. “She had no emotion. Everybody was upset and she didn’t seem to show any emotions. I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele. They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.”

Amy Frost, another witness who had flown in from Britain, said that Ms Knox was “giggling” and kissing Mr Sollecito.

“I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at him. She had her feet on his lap,” the court was told. Ms Frost said that Ms Knox’s behaviour at the police station was “inappropriate”, as if she had “gone crazy”. Ms Butterworth said that Natalie Hayward, another British friend, had remarked “I hope she wasn’t in too much pain.” Ms Knox replied: “What do you think? She f***ing bled to death.”

Ms Hayward told the court that she remembered Ms Knox saying: “They slit her throat, Natalie, she would have died slowly and in a lot of pain.” "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5725542.ece

[IRONSIDE 2]

"Meredith, the roommate, had found a boyfriend, too. A guitar player in a band who lived in an apartment beneath the rental house."

xxxxx

Yes, the boyfriend was away, Amanda would have known this from Meredith.

[Jester]

Here's a description of Amanda's work habits, and more info from her roommates:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/page/2/

"The bar owner was increasingly displeased with his new American waitress for flirting and dancing with the customers and he told her so.

Lumumba: Things didn't go very well. Often, I would have to remind her to take care of the customers. She would apologize but would eventually get distracted by her friends.

Lumumba was thinking of firing her.

And Amanda was getting on someone else's nerves too. The new roommate from England, Meredith, found the American sloppy around the house.

Richard Owen (reporter for the London Times): Never picked up, wouldn't do the chores. Never put out the garbage.

And more worrying was the parade of men Amanda was bringing back to the cottage."

...

"one report that Meredith told her British girlfriends she was actually scared of some of the strays Amanda came home with on a regular basis.

Owen: People who Meredith Kercher distrusted. Didn't like the look of. It appears that it got to the point where she actually confronted Amanda about this.

Murphy: So she's waking up in the morning and there's somebody in the kitchen making tea. It's “Who are you, again?”

Owen: That's right, yeah. Exactly that. And so it, the picture builds up, really, of maybe four, five perhaps more, points of friction between these two girls who previously hadn't known each other at all. "

[IRONSIDE 2]

Meredith's mobile had gone missing and a lady found it in her garden [*flag], contacted the police, the police had traced it and were bringing it back to her, as her supposedly stolen goods.

When they got there, Knox and Sollecito were in a deep embrace in the garden [*flag] and a window had been smashed [* flag], which the couple drew attention to. When the police went inside, the door to Meredith's room was locked. They got through and her body was on the floor, face down, a duvet was over her and her throat had been cut in three ways – one was a sharp nick under the chin, one was not mentioned other than it required a short blade and the other was right through the neck, requiring a long blade.


xxxxxxxx

Who reported Merediths mobile missing?

Again we have Knox and Sollecito in a deep embrace...the broken window...which the couple drew attention to.


You would think if they had noticed a broken window, they would have checked it out themselves knowing Meredith was in the house.

[Jester]

"Meredith, the roommate, had found a boyfriend, too. A guitar player in a band who lived in an apartment beneath the rental house."

xxxxx

Yes, the boyfriend was away, Amanda would have known this from Meredith.

I think there was a halloween party in the apartment downstairs where the boys lived. It's possible that all four roommates told someone that they would all be away then next night, but that seems odd. Rudy used to go to the apartment downstairs to hang out, so he could have known that they'd all be out, but that doesn't explain knowing that the two Italian roommates of Meredith would also be away that night.

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=6873380&page=1


Heres another about her strange behaviour. She is certainly a confident young lady, standing up in court to explain about her pink vibrator. Seems she thinks this case is some kind of joke.

[IRONSIDE 2]

Professing his daughter's innocence, he said, "Regarding the vibrator, what she was trying to show was that what was being portrayed about this vibrator was nothing more than a joke given to her by a friend before leaving for Europe."

"I think she was trying to let the jury know that she is not a promiscuous young lady," he told reporters before leaving.

xxxx

No, I see what you are saying about the room mates. With regards to Amandas father I think it only natural that he believes her . Who would want to think their child guilty of such a crime?

[IRONSIDE 2]

Then again Jester, in a moment of violent drugged, drunk sexual violence would one be thinking of anything else. It is that moment in time without thought, that these terrible crimes sometimes occur. I cannot fathom the reaction of Amandas, has she seen a psychiatrist to examine her mental state?

[Jester]

Professing his daughter's innocence, he said, "Regarding the vibrator, what she was trying to show was that what was being portrayed about this vibrator was nothing more than a joke given to her by a friend before leaving for Europe."

"I think she was trying to let the jury know that she is not a promiscuous young lady," he told reporters before leaving.

xxxx

No, I see what you are saying about the room mates. With regards to Amandas father I think it only natural that he believes her . Who would want to think their child guilty of such a crime?

Since when does anyone drag a gag gift all the way to Europe, and store it in the bathroom? Gag gifts usually make it out of the wrapping, and then into the junk or trash pile. If it was truly a joke gift, she would have left it at home.

[iluvmua]

Funny, I have NEVER seen of heard of Amanda Knox shedding ONE tear for her "friend" Meredith.

Has anybody else noticed this?

Amanda is guilty. Period. End of Story.

Lock her up with Casey Anthony, those two seem to have a lot in common. :angry:

[Jester]

Then again Jester, in a moment of violent drugged, drunk sexual violence would one be thinking of anything else. It is that moment in time without thought, that these terrible crimes sometimes occur. I cannot fathom the reaction of Amandas, has she seen a psychiatrist to examine her mental state?

I haven't read anything about psych eval, but I doubt one has been done. Amanda professes her innocence, claims to be perfectly normal and sweet. A psych eval would imply that she agreed she may have a problem.

[IRONSIDE 2]

I have taken this Snippet from Barcardi World Blog....

Amandas Mum and her feelings about her daughter, maybe you have already seen it. She describes a very different Amanda...maybe parents see their children through different eyes.


xxxxx

One think that particularly disturbs Edda is the way bloggers and newspapers have been free to assassinate her daughter’ character. If Amanda was innocent, why was she doing cartwheels at the police station, they ask. ‘The cartwheels? This is Amanda just being Amanda. As her friends would say, “It’s an Amanda thing.” The police were still being friendly to her then, so she as stretching, and they were talking to her and she said, yes, she had been a gymnast, and they were like, “Well, how about a cartwheel?”, so she did one.’

Then there was the story she had written about a violent rape and poster on her Facebook site. ‘Ah, yes...that,’ Edda says. ‘That was for an assignment at university. Her friend Jessie had the same assignment, and she said Amanda’s story is tame compare to hers.’ Bloggers have also suggested that the photograph of Amanda with a gun is disturbing, if not incriminating. Now Edda is smiling: ‘It was a museum in Vienna. She was with my mother. All the tourists took pictures, there’s also one with my sister and my mum.’

Edda believes the damage has been cumulative. ‘I don’t think she was promiscuous, but even if she was sleeping with everything that walked by her, that wouldn’t mean you’re a murderer. I guess you put all that stuff together and you get a picture of a crazed girl, which is not Amanada.’

Has she ever though her daughter is guilty? ‘Never ever,’ How can she be so sure that she knows everything about her children? ‘I’ll tell you a little story about Amanda. Amanda doesn’t know how to lie. If you were to ask her, “What d’you think of my shoes?” and she though they were hideous, she doesn’t do the polite thing – she’ll tell you they’re hideous. Since she was five she’d o that. That’s what I meant by unique. Some of those interesting social things most people do, she doesn’t.’

If evidence was stronger against her, would Edda still be campaigning for her release? ‘First of all, I think Amanda would tell us. She wouldn’t want us to waste our time. But I’d make sure she had great legal representation. I’d do everything. But I wouldn’t be telling everybody she is innocent.’

Amanda hasn’t complained about her treatment in prison. How is she coping? ‘Better than me. She cries less!’ What does she do all day? ‘She studies, reads, writes letters. She’s let out once a day to exercise. She cooks food. She has a camp stove, and she can now make pizza from scratch.’ Has she changed? ‘Oh yeah! She’s no longer trusting. That was a hard lesson to learn. But I think she’ll go on to do brilliant things with her life. Her lawyer told me she could be an Italian lawyer – her Italian’s that good now. She’s talked about helping people who have been wrongfully incarcerated.’

As for Edda, she can’t wait until it’s over (a verdict is expected in November) and she can get on with life again. ‘I want to go back to being nobody from west Seattle, that’s what I want.’ But what if Amanda is found guilty?. ‘No’ she says, ‘I can’t bear to think of that.’

[Jester]

Just a couple of facts that point to no one other than Amanda:

Whoever attacked Meredith was comfortable knowing no one else was home. The neighbor heard a horrible scream. If the perp thought anyone else could be home, he/they should have fled at that time. (there were a total of 8 people living in the house).

The woman across the street in the apartments heard more than one set of footsteps running from the scene, suggesting more than one assailant.

Someone cleaned up some of the evidence, which became visible using luminol, but not all of the evidence, such as Rudy's feces in the toilet.

Evidence that was cleaned up points to Amanda and Rafaelle. Amanda was in the house alone for a couple of hours claiming to be showering and blow drying her hair in the bathroom with the feces. A photo immediately after suggests she had not done her hair.

No one but Amanda had motive and opportunity to clean up some of the evidence.

Add to that the fact that Amanda was in a foreign country, apparently returned to her apartment to find the door wide open, thought nothing of it, thought nothing of the blood smears in the bathroom, thought nothing of the broken window, thought nothing of the feces in the toilet, thought nothing of the fact that Meredith was no where to be seen, and went about her business.

[Jester]

I have taken this Snippet from Barcardi World Blog....

Amandas Mum and her feelings about her daughter, maybe you have already seen it. She describes a very different Amanda...maybe parents see their children through different eyes.


xxxxx

One think that particularly disturbs Edda is the way bloggers and newspapers have been free to assassinate her daughter’ character. If Amanda was innocent, why was she doing cartwheels at the police station, they ask. ‘The cartwheels? This is Amanda just being Amanda. As her friends would say, “It’s an Amanda thing.” The police were still being friendly to her then, so she as stretching, and they were talking to her and she said, yes, she had been a gymnast, and they were like, “Well, how about a cartwheel?”, so she did one.’

Then there was the story she had written about a violent rape and poster on her Facebook site. ‘Ah, yes...that,’ Edda says. ‘That was for an assignment at university. Her friend Jessie had the same assignment, and she said Amanda’s story is tame compare to hers.’ Bloggers have also suggested that the photograph of Amanda with a gun is disturbing, if not incriminating. Now Edda is smiling: ‘It was a museum in Vienna. She was with my mother. All the tourists took pictures, there’s also one with my sister and my mum.’

Edda believes the damage has been cumulative. ‘I don’t think she was promiscuous, but even if she was sleeping with everything that walked by her, that wouldn’t mean you’re a murderer. I guess you put all that stuff together and you get a picture of a crazed girl, which is not Amanada.’

Has she ever though her daughter is guilty? ‘Never ever,’ How can she be so sure that she knows everything about her children? ‘I’ll tell you a little story about Amanda. Amanda doesn’t know how to lie. If you were to ask her, “What d’you think of my shoes?” and she though they were hideous, she doesn’t do the polite thing – she’ll tell you they’re hideous. Since she was five she’d o that. That’s what I meant by unique. Some of those interesting social things most people do, she doesn’t.’

If evidence was stronger against her, would Edda still be campaigning for her release? ‘First of all, I think Amanda would tell us. She wouldn’t want us to waste our time. But I’d make sure she had great legal representation. I’d do everything. But I wouldn’t be telling everybody she is innocent.’

Amanda hasn’t complained about her treatment in prison. How is she coping? ‘Better than me. She cries less!’ What does she do all day? ‘She studies, reads, writes letters. She’s let out once a day to exercise. She cooks food. She has a camp stove, and she can now make pizza from scratch.’ Has she changed? ‘Oh yeah! She’s no longer trusting. That was a hard lesson to learn. But I think she’ll go on to do brilliant things with her life. Her lawyer told me she could be an Italian lawyer – her Italian’s that good now. She’s talked about helping people who have been wrongfully incarcerated.’

As for Edda, she can’t wait until it’s over (a verdict is expected in November) and she can get on with life again. ‘I want to go back to being nobody from west Seattle, that’s what I want.’ But what if Amanda is found guilty?. ‘No’ she says, ‘I can’t bear to think of that.’

<my bold>
I would be very surprised if any professor could give an assignment to write a rape story and not be brought before the ethics committee. There's creative writing, and then there's asking people to write about something that could be completely against their morals. Christians (in deed, not word), in any class, would not have sat quietly and taken their imaginations to the point where they could write a story about rape and violence towards women. I don't believe this. Amanda's mom, an educator, is dreaming if she doesn't realize this.

The other two points I've bolded relate to the link provided by n/t yesterday: the characterisitcs of a sociopath, or abnormal personality disorder. Amanda's mom admits that both she and Amanda's friends realized that Amanda did not respond normally to many situations, but more or less dismissed her behavior. They're surprised that the same behavior is not dismissed by police and the rest of society, but deep down they always knew that "Some of those interesting social things most people do, she doesn’t." The word "interesting" is an odd way to describe self-centered rudeness.

[IRONSIDE 2]

Jester you have been following this case a lot closer than I. I am still blogging on the madeleine mccann case.

I can see I have a lot of catching up to do. What happened with Amandas alleged beating from the police ? Did she name anyone...

Here is part of Amandas testimony...

Testimony excerpts

Amanda Knox is on trial for the 2007 death and sexual assault of her British roommate. Knox took the witness stand on June 12.
On the last time Knox said she saw Meredith Kercher, on Nov. 1
"She left her room, said 'bye,' walked out the door. That was the last time I saw her." In Italian.
On her alibi the night of the murder
"On Nov. 1, I told Raffaele that I wanted to watch a movie so we went to his place ... I sat on the bed, he sat at his desk, he prepared the joint and then we smoked it together. First we made love, then we fell asleep." In Italian.
On how police treated her
"The declarations were taken against my will, so everything that I said was said in confusion and under pressure."
"They called me a stupid liar; said I was trying to protect someone. I was not trying to protect anyone. I didn't know what to respond. They said I left Raffaele's home, which I denied, but they continued to call me 'stupid liar.'" In English.


On her relationship with the victim
"I confided in her, I would often ask for her advice. ... When Meredith had a problem over my behavior, she would tell me. That was it. There was nothing she would keep hidden or that we couldn't find agreement on." In Italian.
On her turning cartwheels at the police station after the killing
"In general I'm someone who tends to act a little silly when I feel I'm in difficulty or not at ease." In Italian.

On whether she cried after Kercher's body was found
"I cried but I was always hugged by Raffaele. First he gave me his jacket, then he was cuddling with me because I was shaking. I didn't know what to think, I was shocked." In Italian.
On police questioning
"When I arrived at the police office I wasn't expecting to be interrogated at all. I was sitting on my own, doing my homework, when a couple of police officers came to sit with me. They began to ask me the same questions they'd been asking me all those days ... for instance, who could I imagine could be the person who had killed Meredith. I said I still didn't know." In English.


Source: The Associated Press


xxxxxxxx

Friends say that Meredith DID have a problem with Amanda and did not know how to approach her over her cleaning habits, or should I say lack of.

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/31343867/ns/world_news-europe/

Heres the link to where she says she was beaten by police...Later she states she was hit round the head by a police women but it did not hurt.

[Jester]

Funny, I have NEVER seen of heard of Amanda Knox shedding ONE tear for her "friend" Meredith.

Has anybody else noticed this?

Amanda is guilty. Period. End of Story.

Lock her up with Casey Anthony, those two seem to have a lot in common. :angry:

All those that were present describe her as kissing her new boyfriend, being unemotional, being very crass, describing Meredith after the murder in detail even though she was not near the bedroom door when it was opened, and being generally unaffected by the murder. Early reports suggested that Amanda was jealous of Meredith. Amanda got the job at Patrick's bar, but she screwed up and was either fired or about to be fired. Meredith was at the bar one night and made a drink that impressed Patrick. He offered Meredith a job. In essence, Amanda lost her job to Meredith.

[IRONSIDE 2]

Friday, Sep. 18, 2009
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Recommend (0)
Bloody footprint testimony at Amanda Knox trial
The Associated Press
PERUGIA, Italy -- There was testimony about a bloody footprint at the Italian murder trial of former University of Washington student Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend.

A forensic expert said Friday the bloody footprint on a bathroom rug at the crime scene was wrongly attributed to Raffaele Sollecito (sol-EH'-chee-toh).

He and Knox are accused of killing her roommate, British student Meredith Kercher, two years ago in Perugia (per-OO'-juh). Both deny wrongdoing.

In his testimony, defense expert Francesco Vinci compared detailed pictures of the footprint collected at the scene with images of Sollecito's feet, arguing that the sizes and shapes don't match.

Prosecutors say Kercher was killed during what began as a sex game.

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/International/story?id=7538538&page=

Back in May the reporting was very different. Look at these pictures they are both so young.

[Jester]

Jester you have been following this case a lot closer than I. I am still blogging on the madeleine mccann case.

I can see I have a lot of catching up to do. What happened with Amandas alleged beating from the police ? Did she name anyone...

Here is part of Amandas testimony...

Testimony excerpts

Amanda Knox is on trial for the 2007 death and sexual assault of her British roommate. Knox took the witness stand on June 12.
On the last time Knox said she saw Meredith Kercher, on Nov. 1
"She left her room, said 'bye,' walked out the door. That was the last time I saw her." In Italian.
On her alibi the night of the murder
"On Nov. 1, I told Raffaele that I wanted to watch a movie so we went to his place ... I sat on the bed, he sat at his desk, he prepared the joint and then we smoked it together. First we made love, then we fell asleep." In Italian.
On how police treated her
"The declarations were taken against my will, so everything that I said was said in confusion and under pressure."
"They called me a stupid liar; said I was trying to protect someone. I was not trying to protect anyone. I didn't know what to respond. They said I left Raffaele's home, which I denied, but they continued to call me 'stupid liar.'" In English.


On her relationship with the victim
"I confided in her, I would often ask for her advice. ... When Meredith had a problem over my behavior, she would tell me. That was it. There was nothing she would keep hidden or that we couldn't find agreement on." In Italian.
On her turning cartwheels at the police station after the killing
"In general I'm someone who tends to act a little silly when I feel I'm in difficulty or not at ease." In Italian.

On whether she cried after Kercher's body was found
"I cried but I was always hugged by Raffaele. First he gave me his jacket, then he was cuddling with me because I was shaking. I didn't know what to think, I was shocked." In Italian.
On police questioning
"When I arrived at the police office I wasn't expecting to be interrogated at all. I was sitting on my own, doing my homework, when a couple of police officers came to sit with me. They began to ask me the same questions they'd been asking me all those days ... for instance, who could I imagine could be the person who had killed Meredith. I said I still didn't know." In English.


Source: The Associated Press


xxxxxxxx

Friends say that Meredith DID have a problem with Amanda and did not know how to approach her over her cleaning habits, or should I say lack of.

Amanda was charged with making false accusations against the police for suggesting they beat her.

"Amanda Knox, the American student charged with the murder and sexual assault of Meredith Kercher, faces an additional charge of slander for claiming that police struck her while she was being questioned. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5912206.ece

"Ms Knox, who has the right to address the court at any time during her trial, was reacting to evidence from Anna Donnino, a police interpreter who claimed that Ms Knox had behaved "as if a weight had been lifted from her" when she admitted that she had been at the scene of the crime and accused Patrick Diya Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner for whom she worked part-time, of the killing. Ms Knox told police that she had covered her ears in the kitchen to block out Ms Kercher's screams.

Ms Donnino said that when questioned after Ms Kercher's body was found, Ms Knox walked up and down nervously at the police station, "hitting her head with her hands". She had denied responding to an SMS message from Mr Lumumba telling her there was no need to come to work because there were few customers, leaving her free for the evening. But she broke down when police said phone records showed that she had done so, Ms Donnino said.

"She showed extreme emotional involvement – she was crying and visibly shocked, saying 'It was him, it was him. He's bad'," Ms Donnino added. "

[Jester]

Friday, Sep. 18, 2009
Comments (0)
Recommend (0)
Bloody footprint testimony at Amanda Knox trial
The Associated Press
PERUGIA, Italy -- There was testimony about a bloody footprint at the Italian murder trial of former University of Washington student Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend.

A forensic expert said Friday the bloody footprint on a bathroom rug at the crime scene was wrongly attributed to Raffaele Sollecito (sol-EH'-chee-toh).

He and Knox are accused of killing her roommate, British student Meredith Kercher, two years ago in Perugia (per-OO'-juh). Both deny wrongdoing.

In his testimony, defense expert Francesco Vinci compared detailed pictures of the footprint collected at the scene with images of Sollecito's feet, arguing that the sizes and shapes don't match.

Prosecutors say Kercher was killed during what began as a sex game.

Scroll down a bit on this page to see the footprints:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/footprint-is-mr-sollecitos.html

[IRONSIDE 2]

Thanks Jester, her mum is quoted as saying Amanda would not know how to tell a lie. Surely her parents cannot be so blind. We all lie even if it is to protect the ones we love. She's in deep.

[iluvmua]

Was Amanda not scared at the fact that someone might still be in the cottage? if the door was found open?

If that were me, I'd be too scared to even go In much less Take a shower.

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/06/17/nyt_duke_lacrosse_players_killed_meredith_kercher? page=1


Does anyone have an opinion on The New York Times reporting of this case and does this article in the link here have any value of truth.?

[Emerald]

"I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her.....Giacomo Silenzi


xxxx

I know we cannot go too much on newspaper reports but interesting if this was the case. Were they not good friends afterall.

I find it interesting people with intimate knowledge of the MK/AK relationship are not shocked by any reports of animosity between them.

The statement by Giacomo Silenzi infers definite violent tendencies by AK towards MK.

Makes it easier for me to believe AK witnessed something (noise? activity? visitor?), sloughed it off with an "I don't give a f***", talk to the hand kind of attitude as she walked out the door. Peripheral involvement.

I don't know how to do it, but we need a poll of whether RS is guilty or not. I'd vote "NO".

[Jester]

Thanks Jester, her mum is quoted as saying Amanda would not know how to tell a lie. Surely her parents cannot be so blind. We all lie even if it is to protect the ones we love. She's in deep.

There's the statement that's presented in first year philosophy: "this statement is a lie". Is it true, is it a lie? Bottom line, everyone lies.

Amanda said that Patrick had something to do with Meredith's murder. That is one whopper of a lie. If Amanda's mother cannot see that Amanda is capable of whoppers, then she is willfully blind ... just like when she believes University professors can ethically demand that young students write short stories about brutal rapes and violence towards women. That's another whopper of a lie that Amanda's mother wants to blindly believe.

Parents in denial.

[Jester]

Was Amanda not scared at the fact that someone might still be in the cottage? if the door was found open?

If that were me, I'd be too scared to even go In much less Take a shower.

That's just one more example of an unbelievable whopper lie from Amanda. Any woman who arrives home to find the front door wide open and no one home is going to either leave immediately, or possibly cautiously enter and look around. Blood smears in the bathroom would send anyone running ... but not Amanda. She calmly showers in the bloody bathroom, not the least bit concerned about the broken window, the closed door on Meredith's bedroom ... not a care in the world for Amanda.

[KnoxCase]

You initially said that there were no footprints, but there are footprints and there is evidence of someone trying to clean up the footprints. Next, it seems you want to argue that although there are footprints, they must belong to someone else. If they belong to Rudy, then it's a very simple task to take Rudy's footprint, put it beside the photos of the luminol evidence, and demonstrate that police made a mistake. Apparently that is not possible, as that evidence has not been presented.

I agree that Rafaelle's lawyer can make a strong argument that the bra clasp evidence could have been contaminated in the bedroom, but one does have to wonder what his DNA was doing in the bedroom in the first place.

As we see now, another expert today, probably tomorrow, is saying the opposite. He was also involved in the actual forensic work.
The bathroom print was Rudys.

The prints early in the case were Raffaeles and were found to be Rudys.

Rudys shoeprints in blood are all over the place.

No one else. The defense says none of the footprints with blood, are Raffaele's. The small print or blurry half print on the bedsheet, as the defense calls it is Rudys half print, not a small print after all....its just another one of Rudys many bloody shoeprints form his Nike Outbreak 2s that he admitted throwing away in Germany.


and still there is nothing of Amanda or Raffaele's footprints in the crime scene which is the bloody bedroom....unless they floated in air?

[Jester]

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/06/17/nyt_duke_lacrosse_players_killed_meredith_kercher? page=1


Does anyone have an opinion on The New York Times reporting of this case and does this article in the link here have any value of truth.?

The linked article seems to cover the facts of the case. Amanda did say that if her fingerprints were on the knife with Meredith's DNA, then Rafaelle must have pressed her fingers into it while she was sleeping. There was indeed an argument that because there was only a little bit of DNA on the knife to be tested, it meant that it wasn't really Meredith's DNA. The knife was found in Rafaelle's apartment. Early information was that there were several knives used, and Rafaelle collected knives. Here's an image he posted of himself on his blog before the murder: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492160/Murdered-Meredith-Flatmates-crazy-boyfriend-poses-meat-cleaver-bleach.html. We have Rafaelle's love of knives, and Amanda writing a story, which she posted on her facebook (myspace ... something like that), about raping a woman. Knives and rape ... exactly what happened to Meredith ... and not just one stab, but lots of knife wounds.

"Murdered British student Meredith Kercher had at least 23 separate injuries on her body ... Police pathologist Dr Luca Lalli told the court that there were injuries on the 21-year-old's hands, face, neck and legs and that there had also been evidence of sexual activity before she died."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/5102254/Murdered-British-student-Meredith-Kercher-had-23-injuries.html

It's refreshing to see that a couple of authors are writing facts without trying to dismiss it all ... claiming it's all contaminated, or that the prosecution has it in for Amanda.

[Jester]

As we see now, another expert today, probably tomorrow, is saying the opposite. He was also involved in the actual forensic work.
The bathroom print was Rudys.

The prints early in the case were Raffaeles and were found to be Rudys.

Rudys shoeprints in blood are all over the place.

No one else. The defense says none of the footprints with blood, are Raffaele's. The small print or blurry half print on the bedsheet, as the defense calls it is Rudys half print, not a small print after all....its just another one of Rudys many bloody shoeprints form his Nike Outbreak 2s that he admitted throwing away in Germany.


and still there is nothing of Amanda or Raffaele's footprints in the crime scene which is the bloody bedroom....unless they floated in air?

I can't explain that. There is evidence that bloody footprints were cleaned up, and that those prints belonged to Rafaelle and Amanda. Rudy certainly didn't clean up after himself. Who would have cleaned up the bloody footprints that implicate Amanda and Rafaelle?

Other than Amanda, who had any reason to clean up bloody footprints?

[Emerald]

That's just one more example of an unbelievable whopper lie from Amanda. Any woman who arrives home to find the front door wide open and no one home is going to either leave immediately, or possibly cautiously enter and look around. Blood smears in the bathroom would send anyone running ... but not Amanda. She calmly showers in the bloody bathroom, not the least bit concerned about the broken window, the closed door on Meredith's bedroom ... not a care in the world for Amanda.

That open door story really was a whopper with huge holes in it. The door is open. AK supposedly walks in thinking someone just ran out for a moment (trash or downstairs). So, why would AK lock the door; thus locking the person out? First time I heard THAT one, many months ago, I sure did not believe it.

Why is AK so specific about the bar owner, but never mentions RG?

JMO

[iluvmua]

wasn't Amanda seen outside a supermarket waiting for the store to open so she could buy bleach and/or a mop?

If Amanda and her ex- boyfriend are innocent like they claim then why take so much time cleaning up a crime scene in which they did not participate in?

and WHY was Amanda's bloody footprints found outside the door of Merediths room if she did not help commit the crime?

Unless rudy found her shoes and put them in the blood and then made imprints on the floor to implicate her. (IMO, this is the only possible senerio that could happen if she was not there like she claims).

[Emerald]

Why lock MK's door when the murderer left through the unlocked front door?

[Jester]

That open door story really was a whopper with huge holes in it. The door is open. AK supposedly walks in thinking someone just ran out for a moment (trash or downstairs). So, why would AK lock the door; thus locking the person out? First time I heard THAT one, many months ago, I sure did not believe it.

Why is AK so specific about the bar owner, but never mentions RG?

JMO

I don't remember reading that she locked the door behind herself, but that would be the thing to do if she thought no one was home. She could have been locking herself in with an intruder.:scared:

One early theory was that she was jealous of Meredith, and upset with Patrick. She apparently incorrectly believed that Patrick was obsessed with Meredith. Amanda was losing her job, and Meredith had just charmed Patrick into a chance to work behind the bar ... Meredith made a cool mojito with vodka or something that made her marketable. Patrick is married, and just doing business. Meredith told her friends there were problems with Amanda ... and had discussed it with Amanda. Amanda said it was all good ... but it wasn't. We know that because Amanda blow dried her hair next to a filthy toilet; she was not yet helping out in the house or picking up after herself.

Not mentioning RG ... maybe they had a pact. Rudy doesn't say anything other than he had sex with Meredith and he was not alone ... maybe, at the time of the murder, he assumed that no one had his DNA so there was no way he could be tied to the crime. Maybe the three decided that leaving ample evidence of his DNA, and cleaning up Amanda and Rafaelle DNA, then it would be assumed to be a lone unknown intruder that left evidence everywhere. Maybe they made a pact never to reveal the truth and they've mostly kept their word. Rudy had moved to Germany and would have stayed away until everything blew over. Amanda and Rafaelle did do a little weird finger pointing at each other.

Short Answer: the minute Amanda points a finger at Rudy, the cat is out of the bag. There's no doubt that he was involved, the question is who else was there. If Amanda implicates Rudy, then the only way she could have known that was if she was there ... because he definitely was there.

[Jester]

wasn't Amanda seen outside a supermarket waiting for the store to open so she could buy bleach and/or a mop?

If Amanda and her ex- boyfriend are innocent like they claim then why take so much time cleaning up a crime scene in which they did not participate in?

and WHY was Amanda's bloody footprints found outside the door of Merediths room if she did not help commit the crime?

Unless rudy found her shoes and put them in the blood and then made imprints on the floor to implicate her. (IMO, this is the only possible senerio that could happen if she was not there like she claims).

A receipt was found in Rafaelle's apartment for buying bleach and other cleaning products from about 9 that morning. The small grocer remembered Amanda because of her blue eyes (pretty sure I read that somewhere ... and arguments that lots of people have blue eyes). When more questions were asked about the cleaning products, there was a story about Rafaelle gutting a fish, and leaking water pipes.

Both said that they turned on their cell phones at about 10 in the morning, but there's cell phone activity at 6 am. They said they watched a video on the computer, but computer records say otherwise.

Amanda went home to shower after she woke up, about 10 (cell phone on time). Why didn't she shower at Rafaelles? They'd had a shower together the night before, so why not in the morning? She wanted to change. Why not wear one of his t-shirts? So she went home, cleaned up (showered, did the hair :rolleyes:), and then went back to Rafaelle's apt. At that time (12:30), he went to the cottage with Amanda. They were found standing outside the cottage hugging each other. The Postal Police only happened to drop by because they'd found Meredith's cell phones and ... most likely ... they were not going to hand them over to a roommate. They discovered Meredith's body, and started asking questions. Immediately, the actions, words, attitudes, and behaviors of Amanda and Rafaelle became bizarre.

Within days of the murder, they were overheard whispering sexual innuendo in the lingerie shop while purchasing a g-string and t-shirt, doing cartwheels and the splits at the police station, telling whopper lies about everything, and describing a murder scene that they were too far from to describe.

[Jester]

Why lock MK's door when the murderer left through the unlocked front door?

The front door was wide open, Meredith's room was locked, a rock had been thrown through Filomina's bedroom window from the outside after the room had been ransacked. That is, the computer was on the floor, as were clothes, and the broken glass was on top of the computer. Police quickly realized it was staged ... who would stage a break in?

Meredith could conceivably have locked her bedroom door because she was home alone, but an intruder locking the door would have delayed the discovery of her body. Amanda tried to argue that Meredith frequently locked her door, but Filomina and the other roommate disagreed.

[Jester]

Earlier in the trial, I was inclined to give Amanda the benefit of the doubt. The defence addressed each piece of evidence as incompetence or compromise. That is, the entire defence rests on incompetence and compromise at the hands of the prosecution, the forensic analysts, the police, the computer analysts, cell phone companies, the shop keepers, independent witnesses, and video. There is yet to be any evidence ... on the computer, the cell phones, the phone call time to the police ... that can be defended. Those are electronic footprints and apparently, in this case, they've all been tampered with or incompetence has resulted in incorrect analysis. That's almost incomprehensible.

[Emerald]

Jester, my point about the doors is why would the perpetrator lock the bedroom door, but leave the front door unlocked and wide open? It would not conceal the crime, but create more suspicion. This is the peripheral guilt I was talking about for AK. It was AK who locked the bedroom door? Which she later described as putting her hands over her ears?

I don't believe RS had the truth from AK when he went to see what was wrong at the apartment.

Just a hunch. I could be wrong.

[Jester]

Jester, my point about the doors is why would the perpetrator lock the bedroom door, but leave the front door unlocked and wide open? It would not conceal the crime, but create more suspicion. This is the peripheral guilt I was talking about for AK. It was AK who locked the bedroom door? Which she later described as putting her hands over her ears?

I don't believe RS had the truth from AK when he went to see what was wrong at the apartment.

Just a hunch. I could be wrong.

You're right, it would create more suspicion/apprehension to have the front door wide open and a bedroom door locked, but not with Amanda. That seemed normal for her. There is no reason for an intruder to lock the bedroom door, ransack another bedroom, run out the door, then run to the back of the house, break a window, leave the front door unlocked, and then several people are heard running away ... none of it makes sense.

It looks like Amanda locked the bedroom door in the morning so that it would be easier to explain that she didn't know about the crime ... it allowed for a delay in the discovery of the murder from 10 AM-ish to 12:45 PM-ish. Amanda and Rafaelle were discovered embracing in front of the cottage, claiming that he was phoning his sister (who is with the Carribiniere police), but police records show otherwise. He called the Carribiniere police after the Postal Police arrived, or were seen driving up and down the road. Amanda said that Meredith often locked her bedroom door, so she thought nothing of it. The other roommates disagreed. The front door wide open is probably true. Several people were heard running away from the scene and clearly they didn't stop to lock the door. The door did swing open (per Amanda's story) if it wasn't locked.

Someone took the time to break the window ... perhaps Amanda the morning after. Someone ransacked the room and broke a window to make it look like there was an intruder who came in through the window. The problem was that the room was ransacked before the window was broken.

If RS is innocent, why is his DNA ...

[Jester]

Murder suspect's DNA found on Meredith bra strap

Wait a minute ... this says that DNA from the bra clasp implicated Rudy. Are both Rudy and Raffaele's DNA on the same bra clasp? How many bra clasps did she have?

Last updated at 23:42 15 December 2007

DNA from a suspect in the Meredith Kercher murder case has been found on her bra, police revealed yesterday.

Forensic experts made a positive match after more than two weeks of tests on the victim's clothes and samples taken from Rudy Hermann Guede, 20.

The DNA was found on the clasp of the bra, which detectives say was "ripped off" the 21-year-old Leeds University student.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-502571/Murder-suspects-DNA-Meredith-bra-strap.html

[Jester]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213184/September-September-September-Amanda-Knox-predicts-freedom-prison-letter-accused-ex-boyfriend.html

No surprises here ... Raffaele's team promises bombshell evidence on Sept 14 ...

"They have spent the summer examining the DNA findings and a specialist team of experts will say that techniques usd by the police were poor, the samples found insignificant and the wrong conclusions reached."

- the usual story

In her letter: "I'm so sorry that you are alone but at least I don't believe it will be for long still. All I keep repeating to myself is - September, September, September."

- wishful thinking

[Jester]

I know I'm it looks like I'm spamming, but I'm finding all sorts of cool tidbits about the background (not sure if it's reliable):

"In the notes, seen by The Mail on Sunday, Knox - nicknamed Foxy Knoxy - tells Sollecito how special he is and how she wants to give him a hug when they are both cleared of murder. But she informs him she cannot give him her 'heart completely' because she has returned to her ex-boyfriend, American photographer David Johnsrud. She writes:

'I'm sorry for you and that in this time I've steered myself back to the love that I knew. 'But I can give you my hand, shoulder, my ear, my time, my pen, my thoughts, my smiles, my silly pink paper..."

This is interesting: "She says: 'You know what would be wonderful? Do you think they would let us hug each other when the judge absolves us?"

When the court absolves them? They would be free to hug forever if they are absolved ... no permission from the Judge required. Sounds like she misspoke somewhere in that sentence.

"In a note dated February 13, she says: 'It was good to see you again today.

'We got to exchange a few more glances than usual, though I have to admit, I'm not good at reading the subtle messages that one passes through the features of the face nor can I read lips.

'I must admit that I didn't pick up exactly word for word what you may have wanted to transmit my way."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192883/Amanda-Knox-plays-field-jail-cell-new-romance.html

[Jester]

Amanda's father says that Amanda's fling with Raffaele was only 7 days long. During those 7 days, she was observed by Patrick flirting with a customer that she left the bar with at the end of the night. It was Raffaele. She gave up her job for him ... or at least screwed up enough to attract the dissatisfaction of her boss.

"Speaking at the end of the hearing her father Curt ... said his daughter had been falsely painted a 'dark angel.

"It's something she has waited 18 months for - the chance to give her story and what really happened. She breathed a huge sigh of relief when it was all over,' he said.

'I think she did a phenomenal job. Unlike when she was being interrogated by the police a year and a half ago, she was able to speak her mind without being scared to death. '

As for Sollecito he said their relationship had lasted just seven days before the 'horrific crime' took place."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1192953/We-special-Foxy-Knoxys-letters-sent-boyfriend-prison-cell.html

Really. She had met Rudy 3-4 times during her time in Perugia, but she had only known Raffaele one week? The common denominator between them all was pot ... smoking pot or hashish. He learned in court that her roommates thought she was messy and didn't clean up - contrary to earlier remarks she made, when he cleaned her ears, about not thinking anyone could be cleaner than she.

http://explore.dailymail.co.uk/people/kercher_meredith

[Emerald]

Why on Earth would AK's attorney allow such ridiculous correspondence to RS?

As was posted earlier, it really looks like AK's attorney believes he is trying a lost cause.

[Emerald]

Jester,

Thank you for the posts. Very interesting.

It's weird there is so little info available. The first half of the trial there was a lot more media.:confused:

[Jester]

Why on Earth would AK's attorney allow such ridiculous correspondence to RS?

As was posted earlier, it really looks like AK's attorney believes he is trying a lost cause.

It does. Her parents presumably met with her lawyer (I'm assuming, since the parents are paying for it) and mentioned that they would attend court. Apparently the lawyer did not inform the family that it was not appropriate for 14 year old children to attend rape/murder trials. The family was apparently also not advised on appropriate dress. I read somewhere that the family hired a publicity person, but apparently that person couldn't control the situation ... or sold the pictures. Who knows. Still, everyone should have known better, from cartwheels in the police station to outfits for Court, than to act oblivious to the obvious; to pretend to have no idea about what is going on.

[Jester]

It's almost like Italy has it's very own Karla Homolka on trial ... Amanda is the dominant in her relationship with Raffaele, maybe the same is true of Karla.

[Jester]

Jester,

Thank you for the posts. Very interesting.

It's weird there is so little info available. The first half of the trial there was a lot more media.:confused:

Italy is under Roman Law, meaning information is only released at the time of trial; after it has been presented in court. Canada is the same. Information has been released throughout the two year trial, and not before ... all available in due time. It's strong evidence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Solicito. The defense has been arguing each little piece of information, bit by bit ... that it is either contaminated, or unreliable. The big picture shows no defense.

The beginning of the trial was interesting because it was the prosecution, so benefit of the doubt was an option. The defense has it's turn now, and we're still waiting for the corrected cell phone records, the corrected phone transcripts to the police, and the corrected computer analysis. Amanda's computer is irrelevant as it was not part of the alibi. Raffaele's computer was part of the alibi. Where are defense records proving his and Amanda's point?

[Emerald]

Seems like RS's attorney's are letting AK's do all the scrambling. Only stepping in when it looks like RS is in the hot seat. So far, seems like AK is taking all the fall.

Way before the trial started, I did not feel RS was much more than an alibi for AK. Her time alone in the apartment is suspicious, IMO.

Was it ever explained why AK went home to shower when she obviously had showered before at RS's apartment? Very odd her behavior. Seems RS was an afterthought for her.

Do you know how to make polls? I wish this one had an option for RS guilt/not

[KnoxCase]

The corrupt, intentionally non-filmed interrogations of Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele that led to this "railroad job from hell" case continues.

This is when the sharks of the media jumped in and they haven't let go since.

2 years later, 5 different Judges theory's....finally in a public trial....no more secret interrogations and confessions without defense counsel present, dealings in the dark.

So other than these two articles of evidence, the Knife and Bra clasp, there is nothing really. Not in the crime scene. But these two could be enough, its the murder weapon and a piece that places Raffaele there too. Both are incriminated by the Knife and Bra clasp.


Old news the murder weapon, the knife.....its the wrong size.

but the "speck" is too small and now the Judge has just found out the DNA tool told Stefani the "speck" is too small.....so the results were "too low...too low..." Stephony ignored it, she went one step over the line...she forced a reading from the tool, crank it up.....blast it....who cares about calibration and standard/stable settings.

So the Stafani de-calibrated the tool and adjusted it to get it to read like she wanted too, is looking to be obvious.
Thats outside of protocol, its not right. its not allowed. Its suspicious behavior to change settings.

The defense are still waiting for the settings on the DNA tool Stefani used for this piece of evidnece ....she hasn't turned it over yet. But I have a feeling she will. She's going to have to explain how she made "too low" readings turn into "Merdith DNA" perfect readings......


too bad for the defense the speck was too small to allow them to retest it, or even too small for a 3rd neutral party to retest it...the tiny speck is no more. Everyone has to take Stafoni's word for everything. She does flawless work after all.....just watch the Forensic film.

:rolleyes: back to the footprints....yaaawwwwwnnnnnn

[Jester]

Seems like RS's attorney's are letting AK's do all the scrambling. Only stepping in when it looks like RS is in the hot seat. So far, seems like AK is taking all the fall.

Way before the trial started, I did not feel RS was much more than an alibi for AK. Her time alone in the apartment is suspicious, IMO.

Was it ever explained why AK went home to shower when she obviously had showered before at RS's apartment? Very odd her behavior. Seems RS was an afterthought for her.

Do you know how to make polls? I wish this one had an option for RS guilt/not

I'll try to figure out a poll for innocence of Raffaele. It looks like you're in favor of "serendipity" or "fate" for Raffaele ... that Amanda may take the fall, and Raffaele will walk.

How do you think the public would react to that ... American Girl Guilty, hook up innocent. I think they either both have to go down, or they both get to absolve and, "with the Judge's approval", hug.

[Jester]

No luck with the poll ... seems to be something a moderator has to add.

[Emerald]

I'll try to figure out a poll for innocence of Raffaele. It looks like you're in favor of "serendipity" or "fate" for Raffaele ... that Amanda may take the fall, and Raffaele will walk.

How do you think the public would react to that ... American Girl Guilty, hook up innocent. I think they either both have to go down, or they both get to absolve and, "with the Judge's approval", hug.

I don't know why I feel RS is not guilty of anything. Maybe I'm being affected by the perception thing. She's just not acting right? Everytime I come across those pics of AK smiling in court, the sisters posing in front of the murder scene or the lack of decorum by the whole Family, I get angrier and angrier. Then, there's the written crap by AK. Immediate e-mail to many people home in the US to explain her alibi?

The interview by AK's Father, as just a child made me fume.

Grrrrrr........

JMO

[Jester]

The corrupt, intentionally non-filmed interrogations of Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele that led to this "railroad job from hell" case continues.

This is when the sharks of the media jumped in and they haven't let go since.

2 years later, 5 different Judges theory's....finally in a public trial....no more secret interrogations and confessions without defense counsel present, dealings in the dark.

So other than these two articles of evidence, the Knife and Bra clasp, there is nothing really. Not in the crime scene. But these two could be enough, its the murder weapon and a piece that places Raffaele there too. Both are incriminated by the Knife and Bra clasp.


Old news the murder weapon, the knife.....its the wrong size.

but the "speck" is too small and now the Judge has just found out the DNA tool told Stefani the "speck" is too small.....so the results were "too low...too low..." Stephony ignored it, she went one step over the line...she forced a reading from the tool, crank it up.....blast it....who cares about calibration and standard/stable settings.

So the Stafani de-calibrated the tool and adjusted it to get it to read like she wanted too, is looking to be obvious.
Thats outside of protocol, its not right. its not allowed. Its suspicious behavior to change settings.

The defense are still waiting for the settings on the DNA tool Stefani used for this piece of evidnece ....she hasn't turned it over yet. But I have a feeling she will. She's going to have to explain how she made "too low" readings turn into "Merdith DNA" perfect readings......


too bad for the defense the speck was too small to allow them to retest it, or even too small for a 3rd neutral party to retest it...the tiny speck is no more. Everyone has to take Stafoni's word for everything. She does flawless work after all.....just watch the Forensic film.

:rolleyes: back to the footprints....yaaawwwwwnnnnnn

Interesting perspective: "The corrupt, intentionally non-filmed interrogations of Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele that led to this "railroad job from hell" case continues. "

Does it matter if Patricks interrogation was filmed? He was fingered by Amanda, abused, stripped, denied the baics, and released after two weeks due to alibi and lack of evidence. The corrupt what?

If the rare DNA on the bra clasp was used in Rudy's trial as an abscure but true piece of evidence, then how could the very same obscure piece of evidence be said in Raffaele's trial? Whose DNA was on the clasp? Miraculously, coincidentally, and absurdly, only the two prosecution suspects? That's, again, a stretch of the imagination ... like Amanda's whoppers.

At least three knives have been identified as having been used at the murder scene. The actual knife with DNA from Meredith and fingerprints from Amanda may not have been the murder weapon, but it could have been used at the 23 injury rape and murder.

Forensic scientists found one DNA sample too small, not all samples were too small, and requests were made for a more refined sample. Fortunately for the prosecution, there were several DNA samples that could be directly related to the murder scene, including fingerprints, blood, luminoled evidence, and "consciousness of guilt" (like with the locked and unlocked doors).

Sad thing about DNA ... if there's only a bit then it's destroyed in the testing. Word is that (according to the Judge) the defense was present for testing and did not object at the time. Thank goodness the defense had every opportunity to object to testing methods as they were present for DNA testing.

[Emerald]

No matter the outcome of this trial, AK must still be sentenced in the libel case for Patrick.

[Jester]

I don't know why I feel RS is not guilty of anything. Maybe I'm being affected by the perception thing. She's just not acting right? Everytime I come across those pics of AK smiling in court, the sisters posing in front of the murder scene or the lack of decorum by the whole Family, I get angrier and angrier. Then, there's the written crap by AK. Immediate e-mail to many people home in the US to explain her alibi?

The interview by AK's Father, as just a child made me fume.

Grrrrrr........

JMO


I couldn't figure out a poll, looks like it's a moderator thing. There is solid evidence against Raffaele, like with Amanda. I think they're both totally screwed with their only hope being confusion of the prosecution or the public.

Scroll through some of the photos of Raffaele, and you'll see the flip side of the Amanda coin.

Amanda's father did not call Amanda a child, he called her a "kid". Family friend Anne Bremner called her a restless teenager. That might explain her climbing on the jail bars and singing at the top of her voice ... Amanda Knox's dad is just realizing his daughter is not just some kid, she's a murderer.

[Jester]

No matter the outcome of this trial, AK must still be sentenced in the libel case for Patrick.

And the slander against the police.

[Emerald]

I think AK's Dad has figured out she's lying like crazy. Can't say he's ready to make the leap to murderer. Probably wasn't ready for the behavior evidence, either.

Wasn't AK enrolled in University in Perugia? Did she ever attend class? How long was she there before the murder?

[Emerald]

Shanah Tovah

Happy New Year!

Rosh Hashanah

[Jester]

Shanah Tovah

Happy New Year!

Rosh Hashanah
New Tidings, and all things that go with a New Year

and all that atonement stuff.

Cheers

[Jester]

I think AK's Dad has figured out she's lying like crazy. Can't say he's ready to make the leap to murderer. Probably wasn't ready for the behavior evidence, either.

Wasn't AK enrolled in University in Perugia? Did she ever attend class? How long was she there before the murder?

I think Amanda's dad sees his oldest daughter and wonders if his divorce when she was a teenager had an impact. Rumor is that Amanda's mom married, or partnered up with, a much younger man and that there was competition between Amanda and her mother.

I think she may have made it to two classes, from what I remember. Her fellow students were initially shocked, but have continued with their studies without being falsely attached to any murders.

[Emerald]

I think Amanda's dad sees his oldest daughter and wonders if his divorce when she was a teenager had an impact. Rumor is that Amanda's mom married, or partnered up with, a much younger man and that there was competition between Amanda and her mother.

I think she may have made it to two classes, from what I remember. Her fellow students were initially shocked, but have continued with their studies without being falsely attached to any murders.

I wonder what Daddy Knox thinks of the way his other daughters and ex have acted. He seems to be a bit more aware of his appearance. The way he dress and what he says.

[IRONSIDE 2]

This is from another blog I post on, claims to be Chris Amandas step dad.


cmellas on Sat 11 Oct 2008 - 14:05

I am Amanda Knox's stepdad.
Let me start off by stating that Amanda is absolutely innocent.
A number of press outlets in the US as well as in the UK have hired detectives and have come to the same conclusion.
Feel free to ask me anything and I will answer as best as I can, though it may take me a while to answer since I am very busy at work these days.

The main points of the case against her, as presented by the prosecution, are:
* A knife found at her boyfriend’s house that had Amanda’s DNA on the handle and (the prosecution claims) Meredith’s DNA on the blade.
* Footprints in blood (the prosecution claims) of Amanda in her home.
* A speck of Amanda’s blood on the tap of her bathroom sink.
* An eyewitness that claims to have seen Amanda, her boyfriend Raffaele, and Rudy Guede "casing out her own home on the night before the murder, or the night of (he is not sure)
* an intercepted statement by Amanda to her mother and father, taken from the prison visitation room, which states "I was there. I cannot lie."


So, she was arrested on Nov 5th, 2007. To date, she has not been charged. The pre-trial began on Sept 14th 2008. The function of this pre-trial is to determine if there is enough evidence to charge her and if the evidence is valid.
So far, there have been a number of hearings about various portions of the evidence and dispositions of the witnesses.

Of note, the eyewitness, an Albanian man by the name of Hekuran Kokomani, deemed "the super-witness" was found to be completely crazy. The judge found him to be "unreliable" as a witness. Those in attendance were even laughing when he was spinning his tale on the stand. His story had changed, for the third time, and even as he spoke, when questioned by a lawyer, judge, or prosecution, he would change aspects of the tale. When asked how he could identify Amanda, he stated he could certainly ID her because she had a big gap between her front teeth. To this the judge asked Amanda to stand up and smile at the people of the court. She did and showed everyone that there was no gap.
He went on to state that he had met Amanda in July at a bar in Perugia, Italy, along with Raffaele, and Amanda’s Italian American uncle. The court record shows that Amanda did not arrive in Italy until mid-September. Her uncle’s are all German, and she had not met Raffaele until just 2 weeks prior to the murder and he was in Bari, Italy, previous to this.

As for the knife...it is only "compatible" with 2 of the 4 wounds inflicted on Meredith Kercher and only because it is a knife which has a blade and a point. The wounds, according to forensic examination, show that the knife used was serrated. The knife taken from Raffaele’s house is not. The DNA on the handle is Amanda’s. A point that was never disputed. in fact she told the police, on the night of her interrogation, that she had spent the night previous at Raffaele’s house and they had prepared a meal which consisted of a whole fish. They used the knife to clean the fish. The DNA on the blade consists of a microscopic speck. The scientific police (think Italian version of the FBI) were not able to determine if it was blood, skin, etc. Also, they were not able to show their findings, even after the hearing had been rescheduled twice by the judge, due to their inability to produce a DNA chart that showed what was found on the knife cross-referenced with the DNA of Meredith. On the third hearing, they showed up with a summary of their theories, the person who collected and examined the DNA and that persons boss. The judge, at the first hearing, had requested of the scientific police, that they have the evidence reexamined by a third party person to validate the work done and to offer their opinion at court. That’s why they brought the boss along. He was the impartial third party. He stated that he was impartial since he was qualified and had not done the work himself. They were forced to say that what was found on the blade was so small in quantity and so weak that it would not meet admission criteria. For those who know what RFU's are, the highest peak was 41, and the rest were even lower. The lowest that can be admitted is 50. 80+ would be considered a good match. When asked if they performed the required second test, per policy, they said no. When asked why, they said they used the entire specimen for the first test. At this point, defense asked another person to the stand. This person was another DNA lab tech. He stated that even when the sample is small, it is supposed to be divided so as to be able to perform the second test, per policy, and that the results were to be amplified. Then the first lab tech took the stand again and said it was her choice to use all the sample on the first test.
We the family had the findings analyzed by a leading lab in the US and they stated that the potential for match was in the neighborhood of 0.02%

With regard to the intercepted statement, the judge ordered the original audio to be produced, since he would not provide the defense with a copy, and given to a third party translation company in Italy, so that it could be properly transcribed. The prosecutor had a prison guard translate it, and then the prosecutor cut out all the leading and following conversation so that it was not in context. The findings are: She was talking about her initial interrogation. The police were yelling at her, hitting her, and telling her that she was not being truthful when she would say that she was at Raffaele’s and not at her home. Her statement was basically this: "They kept hitting me and yelling at me that I was lying but I can't lie. Why would I lie? I was there! I was at Raffaele’s all night long!"


As for the rest of the evidence...it has not been discussed yet, in court, but we had our experts review the reports on the footprints and blood droplet and their findings are:

The footprints were analyzed by way of Luminol but the police missed a critical step. The use of Luminol is to show where evidence is. Now, I am told that Luminol reacts with more than just blood. It reacts with most cleaners as well as many bodily fluids and given the correct circumstances, humidity. Another big point about Luminol is that it shows where potential evidence is. As such, you are supposed to then go and take samples of what was revealed by Luminol and have it analyzed to see what it is. The police missed this step. They applied Luminol, took pictures, and said her footprints were in blood, and since they were no longer visible, they must have been cleaned up.

As for the blood droplet linked to Amanda on her own faucet, first off, it was her bathroom so it is not irregular to have your own bodily fluids found in your own bathroom. She had recently had about 4 ear piercings and a couple of them had become rather infected. She had a box of cotton swabs next to the sink that she used to clean the piercings and a small amount of her blood was found on that box too.

The police also tried to say that due to the blood being there, they could tell that she was there on the night of the murder. Now, we have asked many experts if one can tell when a droplet of blood was deposited and how long it has been there. They have all said it is impossible.

[IRONSIDE 2]

cont

The police have also found DNA of Amanda mixed with the blood of Meredith in her bidet. Well, Meredith could have used the bidet and we know Amanda did try it once (We don't have one in the house she grew up in, and they are not common in the US). There was also visible blood drops of Meredith found in the bidet the day after her murder, as well as a rather large, obviously male, footprint left in Meredith’s blood, on the floor mat in front of the bidet. They found no blood of Amanda in the bidet, just DNA and when the policeman took the samples from the bidet, they used a single swab and cleaned almost half the bowl with it. This is not proper procedure for collecting samples.


On to evidence that was used against her in order to have her detained but was later proved to be false or misleading, from the Nov 30th hearing as well as the Dec 17th hearing as well as at the supreme court hearing in March:

[IRONSIDE 2]

cont...

The police and prosecution claimed, in court, that Amanda called Rudy Guede, the individual who fled to Germany after the murder took place, and has a lot of evidence on, around, and inside of Meredith, both before and after the murder via her cell phone. Her phone records do not reflect this. In fact, she has never called him and did not even know him really. She knew of him because he occasionally visited the boys who lived below Amanda but had never associated with him at all.

The police and prosecution stated that Raffaele purchased 2 bottles of bleach on the morning after the murder. This is false. They did find 2 bottles of bleach in his house, but they also found receipts that matched the bottles Julian date code printed on them. One bottle was purchased almost a year previous and the other was from several months previous to the murder. One bottle was slightly used and the other was not opened and still full.

The police and prosecution claimed that Amanda had been seen, the morning after, at a Laundromat, with a black man, cleaning her clothes that she had worn the previous night. Later this story changed to her being seen throwing, again with a black man, throwing her clothes away in a dumpster. In reality, her clothes we on her bed, where they had been the entire time since she had changed, the morning of her arrival to her home, after the murder, and the police had documented this, on that very same day in their CSI video. I would go into detail about the events of that morning but they have been well publicized in the press.
In a nutshell, she came home, noting that the front door was ajar. She thought that was odd but dismissed it and proceeded to undress and then ran to the shower. When she got out, as she was drying her hair, she noticed the blood on the bathmat. She then got a bit worried and after quickly dressing, went to use the hair dryer in the other bathroom and found that someone had not flushed. She thought this was very odd and decided to return to Raffaele’s so that he could come back with her and see for himself. When they returned, they found that a window had been broken and Meredith’s door was locked. She banged on it, thinking that she was asleep, without result. Then she tried calling Meredith, as well as the rest of the girls that lived there. Then she called her mom and I, explained what she saw, we told her to hang up and call the police. Raffaele called, since she was not fluent at the time. Moments later the postal police had showed up with Meredith’s 2 cell phones. which were found by a neighbor in her back yard. Amanda and Raffaele explained what was going on, and asked that they break down the door. They did and discovered the body.

The police also vilified the text message sent by Amanda to her boss. She texted her boss asking if he needed help at the bar and he said no, because the bar was very slow that night, to which she responded Ok, have a good evening and "See you later". This final statement was taken, by the police, as some previously concocted plan for her and her boss to meet up later that night. They never bothered to check her boss for an alibi, to which he had one. Instead they tapped his phone, arrested Amanda, and beat on her all night long and well into the next morning, until she did not know what was real and they could convince her of their version of events. Then they announced to the press that the case was closed, had Patrick arrested, as well as Amanda and Raffaele, and said that Amanda had confessed to the murder, when in fact her statements, even though completely coerced and FALSE, did not say any such thing. Merely that she was in the kitchen on the night of the murder. Meanwhile, at the first hearing, the judge and prosecutor both claimed that Amanda, Raffaele, and Patrick we all very evil, blood crazed, drug addicted, perverts, and murderers. Only after proof that someone else was at the scene, and that the someone else had a record on file with the police which included DNA that was matched to the crime scene, did they bother to look into Patrick’s alibi, of which he had 13 people, patrons of his bar, that said they saw him at his bar on the night of the crime.

There are so many facets of this terrible situation and the press have really made a mess of the details such that you cannot hardly trust what is printed. The entire case, to date, is held under secrecy rules so unless it was leaked by someone, and you can trust the leak, or what that person was given to leak, it should be regarded with suspicion.
The pre-trial will end on the 27th or 28th of this month. The result of this proceeding will either be exoneration, or charges being filed. If charges are filed, then a decision will be made to either release her pending the trial, keep her in prison, or to place her on home arrest in Italy. Obviously, we feel that the first option is the only appropriate option for both Amanda and Raffaele.
The next court date is on the 18th. This will be a terrible day since the prosecutor will be presenting his closing arguments. The press will have a field day with it.

One more thing...as a sidenote. The prosecutor himself goes on trial, for a different case, on November 9th of this year, for much the same behavior that he has displayed in Amanda's case. If you would like to read about it, check out the book written by Douglas Preston called The Monster of Florence. The book is divided into two sections. The first is about the killer, who is a grizly monster of a person and the second half...well, I won't ruin the book but our prosecutor is the monster. Also, Tom Cruse just bought the rights to the book in order to turn it into a movie because it is such a crazy story, and a true story.

Oh well. It is late and I must be getting home now.
Sorry for the incredibly long post.

-Chris

PS
Feel free to ask questions and I will try to pop in from time to time in order to answer them.
Due to my schedule, it may well be more than a week before I get the time to return here, but I hope not.


http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/ ... -t1151.htm

[IRONSIDE 2]

Another from Chris...

cmellas on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 10:01

If you were to watch the CSI videos ad see what Merediths room looked like, I think you would have a different opinion. There were 44 injuries in total to her body. 4 stab wounds to the neck, some cuts to her hands, a broken hyoid bone in her throat, and the rest were bruises and scrapes.
...more than 1/3 of her room was covered in her blood.
I think it is safe to say that it was a rather violent attack, and I will reiterate that Amanda and Raffaele had no bruises, scrapes, bumps, or cuts.
Rudy, due to his complexion and the length of time it took to find and capture him in Germany, could not be assesed for bruises as easily, but he did have cuts to his hands. He explained their presence as defensive wounds from defending himself against the bushy haired stranger that he could not identify, which he later said was Raffaele.
Furthermore, there was no DNA of Amanda or Raffaele found on Merediths body, but there was plenty found from Rudy.


Pure fantasy from a religious zealot. Everything Mignini, the prosecutor, comes into contact with, that is not stamped by the Catholic church, is considered Satanic. He has stated that this case is based on a ritualistic killing due to the time of year, and the markings on Merediths hand, among other things, which look like two very small cuts on one hand. To everyone else, including his own medical examiner and other investigators, they are nothing more than defensive wounds.
Mignini even has his own personal oracle! (I highly doubt that the Pope would approve, and I know that my religion would definitely not approve. I happen to be Baptist)
Look her up. Her name is Gabriella Pasquali Carlizzi. She is somewhat along the same thread as Madame Cleo though not nearly as grandiose nor does she have a toll free number.
I am religious, but I also am not a zealot. I can put things in perspective. I can live a balanced life, unlike the prosecutor.
In case you did not know, this is also not his first time claiming satanism as the root cause of a crime.
read about the narducci case, read the Monster of Florence. You will gain a perspective into how loony this prosecutor is.

[IRONSIDE 2]

The Monster of Florence


http://www.prestonchild.com/solonovels/preston/monsterofflorence/




Comments someone, anybody...:confused::confused:

[Emerald]

This post is supposed to be from AK's step-dad? Again, they aren't doing her any favors. He details obvious evidence in the very spots AK says she was ALONE for a lengthy amount of time.

JMO

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/hunt-for-the-monster-of-florence-1657052.html


Well it seems Mr.Mignini is involved...

[n/t]

His comment "the press have really made a mess of the details such that you cannot hardly trust what is printed" is true if you follow junk media reports and tabloids.


Hope he's not getting his information from the Daily Express. lol

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php


The ear piercing blood droplets as was explained by the Knox family just goes to show how desperate they are to explain away crucial evidence in the case.....

I think people will have to use common sense following this case.

I try as much as possible to follow reliable sources. I learned alot about tabloid junk following Madeleine McCanns case. :wink:

[IRONSIDE 2]

http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/2009/07/amanda-knox-prosecutor-giuliano-mignini.html

[IRONSIDE 2]

n/t Hi, and ditto :thumbup::thumbup:

[n/t]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/hunt-for-the-monster-of-florence-1657052.html


Well it seems Mr.Mignini is involved...

Honestly, I don't see the connection to both these cases. I remember watching the documentary on Dateline. IIRC, this was a case about a serial killer in the 70's who murdered couples and everyone had their theory as to who it could be. It was a frenzy including book writers wanting to get the books published first and who would be the hero to catch the guy. I don't think they ever caught him, did they? I have to go back and reread.

[n/t]

Speaking of tabloids....lol

I just found something out today. The "Foxy Knoxy" didn't come from tabloids at all. It was a name they called Amanda in highschool or college when she played soccer.

I always thought it was the Italian tabloids. hahaha

[IRONSIDE 2]

n/t, no it appears he is still out there. However, I can understand Chris trying to connect the Judge and putting two and two together and coming up with 5....In his eyes she is innocent. I read a post on the Mail a couple of days ago from an Italian poster who said that in Italy Halloween is no big deal and all this satan talk is rubbish, there have been two incidents and thats it.... end of quote..

I am content to sit back and watch this case unfold. I enjoy others opinions and thoughts though.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[iluvmua]

I think Amanda's dad sees his oldest daughter and wonders if his divorce when she was a teenager had an impact. Rumor is that Amanda's mom married, or partnered up with, a much younger man and that there was competition between Amanda and her mother.

I think she may have made it to two classes, from what I remember. Her fellow students were initially shocked, but have continued with their studies without being falsely attached to any murders.

Hi, Amanda's mom is married to Chris Mellas who is 35 or 36, I can't remember so there might have been some competition between Amanda and mom's new husband.

[Jester]

Hi, Amanda's mom is married to Chris Mellas who is 35 or 36, I can't remember so there might have been some competition between Amanda and mom's new husband.

Thanks. So I guess it's the mom's husband that has been posting on the internet.

[Xainia]

Speaking of tabloids....lol

I just found something out today. The "Foxy Knoxy" didn't come from tabloids at all. It was a name they called Amanda in highschool or college when she played soccer.

I always thought it was the Italian tabloids. hahaha


It is also the name Amanda used on her my space site.

[KnoxCase]

"There is nothing visible on this knife," said Mariano Cingolani, holding the weapon in his hands.

What this means is the expert doesn't agree with the prosecution, who stated the invisible DNA came from a scratch on the blade, but there was no scratch on the blade aka "there is nothing visible."

The forensic lead was proven to be mistaken. How could they have made such an oversight? Scratches don't disappear while a knife sits in a police box.

This kitchen knife is not the murder weapon, everyone knows this.

Everyone has testified the murder weapon was 3", including all the coroner/autopsy experts.

only Mignini and the lead Stefoni stand by this 6.5 " blade as the murder weapon.

the "real" murder weapon left its print in blood on the bedsheet. The expert this weekend revisited the bedsheet and measurements were again believed to be 3".

so another false accusation, incorrect piece of evidence to add to their pile. the Kitchen Knife....:thumbdown:

btw, this is the ONLY piece of evidence putting Amanda in the bedroom.

there's no other dna, no footprints, no fingerprints, no hair, no fibers....nothing, zilch, zero, nada. no other evidence of Amanda in the crime scene of the bedroom.

[Emerald]

Now, you see, that's the problem with DNA evidence. It can prove guilt, but lack of it cannot prove innocence.

However, that IS one of the reasons I'm leaning towards being not guilty of the murder, but peripherally guilty. AK knows much more than she has publicly stated.

I find it very interesting RS's attorneys are taking so much time with the knife which obviously is not the murder weapon. Thus, not allowing for the other evidence to be highlighted. They are slowly, but definitively separating RS from the AK association.

[iluvmua]

Now, you see, that's the problem with DNA evidence. It can prove guilt, but lack of it cannot prove innocence.

However, that IS one of the reasons I'm leaning towards being not guilty of the murder, but peripherally guilty. AK knows much more than she has publicly stated.

I find it very interesting RS's attorneys are taking so much time with the knife which obviously is not the murder weapon. Thus, not allowing for the other evidence to be highlighted. They are slowly, but definitively separating RS from the AK association.

she may have not done the actual killing but it seems to me that she WAS there when it happened. therefore she is guilty by association.

[iluvmua]

"There is nothing visible on this knife," said Mariano Cingolani, holding the weapon in his hands.

What this means is the expert doesn't agree with the prosecution, who stated the invisible DNA came from a scratch on the blade, but there was no scratch on the blade aka "there is nothing visible."

The forensic lead was proven to be mistaken. How could they have made such an oversight? Scratches don't disappear while a knife sits in a police box.

This kitchen knife is not the murder weapon, everyone knows this.

Everyone has testified the murder weapon was 3", including all the coroner/autopsy experts.

only Mignini and the lead Stefoni stand by this 6.5 " blade as the murder weapon.

the "real" murder weapon left its print in blood on the bedsheet. The expert this weekend revisited the bedsheet and measurements were again believed to be 3".

so another false accusation, incorrect piece of evidence to add to their pile. the Kitchen Knife....:thumbdown:

btw, this is the ONLY piece of evidence putting Amanda in the bedroom.

there's no other dna, no footprints, no fingerprints, no hair, no fibers....nothing, zilch, zero, nada. no other evidence of Amanda in the crime scene of the bedroom.

What about the bloody footprints outside the door of Meredith's room?

Those have already been identified as Amanda's and what about Amanda's blood in the bathroom? I don't believe one bit about the ear piercing story either.

They have got tons of evidence against Amanda and the ex-boyfriend.

[Emerald]

Did they fingerprint and DNA the door handles? Who locked the bedroom door? Obviously, it was not MK. She was already dead when it was locked.

IMO, it was Amanda who locked the bedroom door.

[n/t]

"There is nothing visible on this knife," said Mariano Cingolani, holding the weapon in his hands.

What this means is the expert doesn't agree with the prosecution, who stated the invisible DNA came from a scratch on the blade, but there was no scratch on the blade aka "there is nothing visible."

The forensic lead was proven to be mistaken. How could they have made such an oversight? Scratches don't disappear while a knife sits in a police box.

This kitchen knife is not the murder weapon, everyone knows this.

Everyone has testified the murder weapon was 3", including all the coroner/autopsy experts.

only Mignini and the lead Stefoni stand by this 6.5 " blade as the murder weapon.

the "real" murder weapon left its print in blood on the bedsheet. The expert this weekend revisited the bedsheet and measurements were again believed to be 3".

so another false accusation, incorrect piece of evidence to add to their pile. the Kitchen Knife....:thumbdown:

btw, this is the ONLY piece of evidence putting Amanda in the bedroom.

there's no other dna, no footprints, no fingerprints, no hair, no fibers....nothing, zilch, zero, nada. no other evidence of Amanda in the crime scene of the bedroom.

Why then did Sollecito feel the need to explain it away?

Lots more at the link........

====

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house.

Sollecito also wrote that he may have been framed by Knox.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23426576-details/Meredith+murder+suspect+tells+'secret+prison+diary '+her+DNA+was+on+his+knife+because+he+'pricked+her +'+while+cooking/article.do

and your statement regarding no footprint is incorrect:

One print was exiting her own room, and one print was outside Meredith’s room, facing into the room.

A woman’s bloody shoeprint which matched Amanda Knox’s foot size was found on a pillow under Meredith’s body. Barbie Nadeau noted the significance of this evidence on The Daily Beast website:

“When the judge asked Rinaldi the size of an unidentified bloody shoeprint found on the pillow below Kercher’s body, he responded, “Between 36 and 38.” The judge then asked Rinaldi what size shoe Knox wears. “The Skecher shoe we sequestered belonging to Amanda Knox corresponds with size 37.”

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

[Emerald]

she may have not done the actual killing but it seems to me that she WAS there when it happened. therefore she is guilty by association.

Yep. That's exactly what I think, too. I just can't decide at what point she was there.

[n/t]

I just noticed the poll was taken down. Is there a time limit as to how long a poll should stay up?

I thought it was interesting to see the results.

[jaxback]

Why then did Sollecito feel the need to explain it away?

Lots more at the link........

====

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house.

Sollecito also wrote that he may have been framed by Knox.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23426576-details/Meredith+murder+suspect+tells+'secret+prison+diary '+her+DNA+was+on+his+knife+because+he+'pricked+her +'+while+cooking/article.do

and your statement regarding no footprint is incorrect:

One print was exiting her own room, and one print was outside Meredith’s room, facing into the room.

A woman’s bloody shoeprint which matched Amanda Knox’s foot size was found on a pillow under Meredith’s body. Barbie Nadeau noted the significance of this evidence on The Daily Beast website:

“When the judge asked Rinaldi the size of an unidentified bloody shoeprint found on the pillow below Kercher’s body, he responded, “Between 36 and 38.” The judge then asked Rinaldi what size shoe Knox wears. “The Skecher shoe we sequestered belonging to Amanda Knox corresponds with size 37.”

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

It seems to me that even after a year in prison these two entitled little snots are still living in their own private fantasy-bubbles, writing prison diaries with "made to be published" titles like "Notes on a Prison Journey." It's all one big, fame-creating story, a soon-to-be (pick one: bestseller, feature film, Lifetime movie) for them. I wonder when either of them is going to wake up to reality?

[Jester]

Why then did Sollecito feel the need to explain it away?

Lots more at the link........

====

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house.

Sollecito also wrote that he may have been framed by Knox.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23426576-details/Meredith+murder+suspect+tells+'secret+prison+diary '+her+DNA+was+on+his+knife+because+he+'pricked+her +'+while+cooking/article.do

and your statement regarding no footprint is incorrect:

One print was exiting her own room, and one print was outside Meredith’s room, facing into the room.

A woman’s bloody shoeprint which matched Amanda Knox’s foot size was found on a pillow under Meredith’s body. Barbie Nadeau noted the significance of this evidence on The Daily Beast website:

“When the judge asked Rinaldi the size of an unidentified bloody shoeprint found on the pillow below Kercher’s body, he responded, “Between 36 and 38.” The judge then asked Rinaldi what size shoe Knox wears. “The Skecher shoe we sequestered belonging to Amanda Knox corresponds with size 37.”

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/

I had forgotten about his explanation for why Meredith's DNA was on a knife at his house. Thanks for bringing this up. So true ... if Raffaele was truly surprised at Meredith's DNA on his knife, or if it really isn't her DNA, he would not have come up with a "story" to explain it away.

Maybe his new story is that the police beat and coerced him too, so he told them what they wanted to hear ... but claiming Meredith was at his house for dinner is about as farfetched as Amanda's claims that Patrick was involved.

Another point that bothers me, one that the prosecution made, was that Amanda described the murder scene even though she was not near the bedroom door when the police broke into the bedroom. She has information that only could have been known by the murderer, or someone that was there at the time. I too think she locked the bedroom door.

[Jester]

Did they fingerprint and DNA the door handles? Who locked the bedroom door? Obviously, it was not MK. She was already dead when it was locked.

IMO, it was Amanda who locked the bedroom door.

Amanda's fingerprints on the door handle wouldn't mean too much since she could easily say that she tried the door when she couldn't reach Meredith.

Something else that strikes me as a bit odd is the fact that Amanda was trying to reach Meredith in the first place. She was apparently unphased by the front door being open, and other odd things in the cottage. Why didn't she just carry on with her day? It doesn't sound like she and Meredith were all that close, and it was close to noon when Amanda was at home showering. Why didn't she assume that Meredith was with friends, shopping, or possibly studying in the library? What made her think that she had to get in contact with Meredith when nothing at the cottage phased her as out of place ... at least not enough to prevent her from taking a shower, doing her hair, and taking her time getting cleaned up?

It would make a lot more sense if Amanda and Raffaele were in the cottage when the police arrived, and that the first alarm that something was amiss with Meredith came with the Postal Police arriving with the cell phones.

[Jester]

she may have not done the actual killing but it seems to me that she WAS there when it happened. therefore she is guilty by association.

Amanda said she heard a terrible scream and covered her ears. The neighbor also said she heard a terrible scream. This is a statement from Amanda that is surprisingly true. The scream certainly didn't happen when Meredith was stabbed in the neck, as she would have been beyond screaming at that time. The scream probably came at the beginning of the attack ... which gave Amanda plenty of time to run for help.

[Peter]

Why then did Sollecito feel the need to explain it away?

Lots more at the link........

====

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house.

Sollecito also wrote that he may have been framed by Knox.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23426576-details/Meredith+murder+suspect+tells+'secret+prison+diary '+her+DNA+was+on+his+knife+because+he+'pricked+her +'+while+cooking/article.do

and your statement regarding no footprint is incorrect:

One print was exiting her own room, and one print was outside Meredith’s room, facing into the room.

A woman’s bloody shoeprint which matched Amanda Knox’s foot size was found on a pillow under Meredith’s body. Barbie Nadeau noted the significance of this evidence on The Daily Beast website:

“When the judge asked Rinaldi the size of an unidentified bloody shoeprint found on the pillow below Kercher’s body, he responded, “Between 36 and 38.” The judge then asked Rinaldi what size shoe Knox wears. “The Skecher shoe we sequestered belonging to Amanda Knox corresponds with size 37.”

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/


bolded; Was the pillow "under" Meridth or "below" ? and was Meridth found on her bed or the floor? Is the print "similar" or "Exact"?
TIA

[n/t]

bolded; Was the pillow "under" Meridth or "below" ? and was Meridth found on her bed or the floor? Is the print "similar" or "Exact"?
TIA

I wasn't there. Maybe you can write The Daily Beast for clarification or you can research it yourself. There is one photo being circulated on the net. It looks like Meredith was on the floor and a duvet is covering her. I don't know if I'm allowed to post the photo so I will refrain from doing so. You can google it.

[Emerald]

Amanda's fingerprints on the door handle wouldn't mean too much since she could easily say that she tried the door when she couldn't reach Meredith.

Something else that strikes me as a bit odd is the fact that Amanda was trying to reach Meredith in the first place. She was apparently unphased by the front door being open, and other odd things in the cottage. Why didn't she just carry on with her day? It doesn't sound like she and Meredith were all that close, and it was close to noon when Amanda was at home showering. Why didn't she assume that Meredith was with friends, shopping, or possibly studying in the library? What made her think that she had to get in contact with Meredith when nothing at the cottage phased her as out of place ... at least not enough to prevent her from taking a shower, doing her hair, and taking her time getting cleaned up?

It would make a lot more sense if Amanda and Raffaele were in the cottage when the police arrived, and that the first alarm that something was amiss with Meredith came with the Postal Police arriving with the cell phones.


Jester, it would mean quite a bit if AK's prints were on the door handle inside the room. Somebody locked that door as they left the room AFTER ther murder.

[Emerald]

N/T, I have googled many times, but find very little information. That's why I come here to find out stuff.

In the very beginning I was truly on the fence. My opinion of the case has evolved to AK being guilty peripherally. She went to Italy, got completely out of control with some sense of superiority and entitlement. That happens to kids who stay near home for University, too. AK went way too far. Others paid the price.

AK and her Family have absolutely no sense of the gravity of this situation. I've never heard a word of sympathy from any of them for the loss of Meridith Kercher. AK obviously knew what was behind that door before it was opened by LE. She didn't care; except to cover her own ***.

JMO

[Peter]

I wasn't there. Maybe you can write The Daily Beast for clarification or you can research it yourself. There is one photo being circulated on the net. It looks like Meredith was on the floor and a duvet is covering her. I don't know if I'm allowed to post the photo so I will refrain from doing so. You can google it.

TY For the info

[Jester]

Jester, it would mean quite a bit if AK's prints were on the door handle inside the room. Somebody locked that door as they left the room AFTER ther murder.

You're quite right. I was only thinking about outside the room, not inside. It was said that many places were wiped clean of fingerprints. Maybe Meredith's doorknob was one of the places that was wiped clean.

[Emerald]

JMO

AK did not want to be the one to 'find' Meredith. She thoroughly expected one of the other friends to find her first. When that didn't work out, AK started calling to prod them home to open the door and find MK.

[Jester]

JMO

AK did not want to be the one to 'find' Meredith. She thoroughly expected one of the other friends to find her first. When that didn't work out, AK started calling to prod them home to open the door and find MK.

I still think it's weird that she was even concerned about finding Meredith. It was late Saturday morning. Students could be staying overnight with a friend, sleeping, out for the day, out for coffee, lunch ... so many reasons for Meredith to not be at the house that Saturday morning/noon. Since nothing about the house caused Amanda to be concerned, why did she even bother trying to contact Meredith?

She says that she was concerned at some point long after arriving at the cottage, showering, changing, doing her hair, being in both bathrooms, her bedroom, and changing, so she walked back to Raffaele's apt and they returned together. Why didn't she just phone him? And why didn't she just shower at his place? I have a lot of questions about the morning timeline and events.

I think she called Filomina first and Filomina told her to call Meredith, but the length of the call Amanda first placed wasn't long enough for her to really be calling Meredith (going on memory).

[n/t]

Ironside, for some reason the link won't upload for me.

The True Justice for Meredith site, imo, has the best information.

On the right side there is a list of "subjects" to choose from.

[Emerald]

Browsing the TruthJustice site reaffirms the 'guilty' impression I have. It was interesting to get perspective of the Italians as well.

I don't think AK will be coming back to the US for a very long time. She does not deserve to. I also cannot muster sympathy for her Family.

JMO

[n/t]

Browsing the TruthJustice site reaffirms the 'guilty' impression I have. It was interesting to get perspective of the Italians as well.

I don't think AK will be coming back to the US for a very long time. She does not deserve to. I also cannot muster sympathy for her Family.

JMO

Did you read about the email she sent 2 days later? She copies friends, family and staff at the University of Washington? :blink:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C196/

[Jester]

Hi n/t..I am very behind with this case found this link from The Times...tell me is this basically correct apart from the Mobile text of course..:blush:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2858134.ece

Interesting links. This was interesting ... Amanda gave a verbal and written statement that three people were involved, that there was at least one loud scream, and that there was sexual assault before the autopsy and witness statements were available. She knew information that could only have been known by someone that was at the murder. Two of her statements were suppressed because she did not have a lawyer. Her testimony in court is different from her written statement and previous statements.

An alibi with conflicting versions that can't be pinned down is a big sign of guilt. Raffaele has the same problem, but it's not nearly as serious. He quickly admitted lying at Amanda's request, stated that she may have left the house while he was passed out (he was the heavy pot/hash user), and began distancing himself from Amanda. It may not be enough, as DNA from all three suspects is stretched across Raffaele's apartment, and Meredith's cottage.

I didn't see the mobile text, but I did find this timeline:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2864713.ece

[Jester]

Ms Knox's account of her movements are also being studied very closely. She has changed her story several times, first saying that she spent the evening and night with her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, then admitting she was at the cottage but only heard Ms Kercher's screaming from her bedroom while Mr Lumumba was in it, then reverting to her original account and claiming that she was not at the cottage at all until the next morning.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2864713.ece

[Jester]

After calling her mom at 12:47 PM Italy time.

"Edda’s reply is simple, and plainly it is good advice: hang up, and call the police.

Phone records show that a minute and a half after this call ended (at 1250) Raffaele made a call to his sister Vanessa, who is a lieutenant in the carabinieri.

We don’t have too much detail about the content of this call (since Vanessa hasn’t testified and Raffaele is exercising his right to silence) except that it appears to have been similar to Amanda’s call to her mother. Raffaele briefly explains the problem at the cottage and Vanessa advises him to call the police.

A minute later, Raffaele calls the police. After a phone problem – he has to call back after being placed indefinitely on hold – he calls them a second time and explains the problem. Since these calls were recorded, we know exactly what was said.

Raffaele claims that someone has broken into the house through a broken window and caused a lot of disorder. There is a lot of blood, but nothing has been stolen, and the main problem – as he sees it – is that there is a locked door. The police say that they will send a patrol to verify the situation.

Edda’s testimony, supported by the police and phone records, shows a straightforward link from the call she received at 0447 Seattle time (1247 in Perugia) to the calls that Raffaele makes to his sister (1250) and the police (1251 and 1254). That whole process takes just eight minutes.

At 0524 (1324 in Perugia), Edda receives a second phone call from her daughter. Amanda explains that the police have now arrived and found Meredith’s dead body. "

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C196/

[Jester]

Did you read about the email she sent 2 days later? She copies friends, family and staff at the University of Washington? :blink:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C196/

Raffaele described quite a bloody scene:

"Raffaele claims that someone has broken into the house through a broken window and caused a lot of disorder. There is a lot of blood, but nothing has been stolen, and the main problem – as he sees it – is that there is a locked door. The police say that they will send a patrol to verify the situation."

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

From your link:

"At home in Seattle on Sunday, Edda Mellas receives an email from her daughter, which is copied to multiple recipients (friends, family, and staff at the University of Washington).

Amanda describes how, on the Friday morning, she went home, showered, noticed some problems, returned to Raffaele’s apartment, went back to the cottage with Raffaele, and became increasingly alarmed about the various signs that an intruder had been in the house.

Then there is a part that Edda finds strange. Amanda describes the following events, as regards calling the police:

“in the living room raffael told me he wanted to see if he could break down merediths door. he tried, and cracked the door, but we couldnt open it. it was then that we decided to call the cops. there are two types of cops in italy, carbanieri (local, dealing with traffic and domestic calls) and the police investigaters. he first called his sister for advice and then called the carbanieri. i then called filomna who said she would be on her way home immediately. while we were waiting, two ununiformed police investigaters came to our house.”

[n/t]

Yup, even her own mom couldn't understand why she had changed her story...errr couldn't remember.

Solecito called his sister. Neither called the cops at first. I don't believe Solecito didn't know who to call the carabinieri or the local police. What a lame excuse!

[Emerald]

How would RS know what the state of the bedroom was if he had not seen it because the door was locked? IMO, he was relaying the information AK had given him. It makes sense RS would be the one to call LE, because of the language thing.

JMO

[Emerald]

After calling her mom at 12:47 PM Italy time.

"Edda’s reply is simple, and plainly it is good advice: hang up, and call the police.

Phone records show that a minute and a half after this call ended (at 1250) Raffaele made a call to his sister Vanessa, who is a lieutenant in the carabinieri.

We don’t have too much detail about the content of this call (since Vanessa hasn’t testified and Raffaele is exercising his right to silence) except that it appears to have been similar to Amanda’s call to her mother. Raffaele briefly explains the problem at the cottage and Vanessa advises him to call the police.

A minute later, Raffaele calls the police. After a phone problem – he has to call back after being placed indefinitely on hold – he calls them a second time and explains the problem. Since these calls were recorded, we know exactly what was said.

Raffaele claims that someone has broken into the house through a broken window and caused a lot of disorder. There is a lot of blood, but nothing has been stolen, and the main problem – as he sees it – is that there is a locked door. The police say that they will send a patrol to verify the situation.

Edda’s testimony, supported by the police and phone records, shows a straightforward link from the call she received at 0447 Seattle time (1247 in Perugia) to the calls that Raffaele makes to his sister (1250) and the police (1251 and 1254). That whole process takes just eight minutes.

At 0524 (1324 in Perugia), Edda receives a second phone call from her daughter. Amanda explains that the police have now arrived and found Meredith’s dead body. "

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C196/

Doesn't AK's Mother live in Seattle? There is a 9 hr difference in time between Seattle and Perugia.

[Jester]

Yup, even her own mom couldn't understand why she had changed her story...errr couldn't remember.

Solecito called his sister. Neither called the cops at first. I don't believe Solecito didn't know who to call the carabinieri or the local police. What a lame excuse!

The more one scrutinizes the events around the murder, the worse it looks ... it's not surprising they are on trial for murder.

[Jester]

Doesn't AK's Mother live in Seattle? There is a 9 hr difference in time between Seattle and Perugia.

I agree with you there, and was wondering the same thing. It could be based on daylight savings time. Just checked and ... Nov 2 is right in the middle of when countries switch over. Italy switched over October 28, 2007, and Seattle switched over November 4, 2007.

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst2007.html
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/clockchange.html?n=234&year=2007

[Jester]

The more I read, the more I'm curious about the layout of the house. I remember seeing a bit of a floorplan quite some time ago, but I can't find it anymore. If anyone can locate a floor plan of sorts, no matter how sketchy, please post a link.

[Jester]

While looking for floorplans, I came across this link, with lots of maps and photos of the area ...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15712895/GialloDiPerugiapt2TheHouse

And the floorplan ... on page 44

[Jester]

Looking at the sketchy floorplan that I linked above, it looks like the house is laid out in an L shape. At the top of the L is Merediths bedroom, below is Amanda's bedroom., and then another bedroom. Going along the foot of the L, we then have a general area which I guess would include the kitchen, and then one more bedroom. The two bathrooms are at the top of the L and at the tip of the foot of the L. It's an awfully simple layout, and the space for living/kitchen/dining seems to the one room at the main entrance.

What I find interesting is that there is a terrace or balcony on the back of the house (according to these plans). If Rudy was going to scale the wall, why didn't he go up on the balcony where there may have been an unlocked door, or where it would have been easier to get into the cottage?

[Jester]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15712536/Giallo-Floorplan-Updated-Pt0a


Click on the numbers at the bottom of the page and this gives you the floor plan....

Thanks. That seems to be the only floor plan online. I'm trying to visualize how far Amanda was from Meredith's room when she covered her ears. According to the floor plan, it looks like she was right next to the front door. If she was at the scene and an innocent party, she could have easily run out the door and found help.

I just clicked on the numbers and the floorplan is updated in your link. thank you so much.

[Jester]

The cottage looks to me to be really cramped. Also, minor correction, in the drawings there is a window onto the balcony but it should be a double (like French) door. The clothes drying rack looks like it's in the hallway right in front of the door to the balcony. Also, looking at the exterior wall beneath Filomina's bedroom, Rudy would have had to be Spiderman to scale that wall, and if he climbed through a window that was broken with a rock, he would have cut himself on the glass shards. No wonder the police thought that was staged.

[Jester]

Another mystery solved. I read somewhere that Amanda's lamp was in Meredith's room, but wasn't sure if that was gossip or fact. Slides 28 and 29 on the updated floor plan link show the lamp in Amanda's room at some point after the murder, but not in the crime scene photos. Slide 24 also talks about a lamp that is plugged in outside of Meredith's bedroom. For some reason, the lamp that most likely was normally in the room rented by Amanda was in Meredith's bedroom ... maybe she borrowed it, and maybe it was moved there on the night of the murder. If it was moved there on the night of the murder, then it adds to the theory that more than one person was involve in the murder ... one person to restrain Meredith, another to get the lamp. Another possibility is that Amanda, or someone, put the lamp in Meredith's room to make it easier to clean up evidence.

[Jester]

This photo of Amanda's two sisters at the cottage gives a great view of the front door and Filomina's bedroom window. The window looks to be only about 3 feet from the end of the wall, but it's still a very flat wall with little to climb on. I wonder if it's possible to break the window from the area by the main entrance and then somehow climb in that window. The rock through the window theory also depends on no one being home in either of the apartments (boys downstairs, girls upstairs) ... someone had to know that from about 8 - 11 in the evening, none of the 8 roommates were home.

What if Amanda was not involved, how could Rudy and other unknown assailants have known that one or more roommates + friends wouldn't all come home together and confront the intruders ... at least one person would have been close enough to the front door to run out for help. It seems like such a risk to take a chance on rape and murder in a place where so many people could unexpectedly arrive. This is far from the single woman living alone scenario.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199111/Revealed-Foxy-Knoxys-sisters-posing-happily-macabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

[n/t]

This photo of Amanda's two sisters at the cottage gives a great view of the front door and Filomina's bedroom window. The window looks to be only about 3 feet from the end of the wall, but it's still a very flat wall with little to climb on. I wonder if it's possible to break the window from the area by the main entrance and then somehow climb in that window. The rock through the window theory also depends on no one being home in either of the apartments (boys downstairs, girls upstairs) ... someone had to know that from about 8 - 11 in the evening, none of the 8 roommates were home.

What if Amanda was not involved, how could Rudy and other unknown assailants have known that one or more roommates + friends wouldn't all come home together and confront the intruders ... at least one person would have been close enough to the front door to run out for help. It seems like such a risk to take a chance on rape and murder in a place where so many people could unexpectedly arrive. This is far from the single woman living alone scenario.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199111/Revealed-Foxy-Knoxys-sisters-posing-happily-macabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

Playing devil's advocate here....we know Rudy had a criminal background and IIRC, he burglarized a place where there were people inside. I believe he stole electronics?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With that said, he did not murder anyone in the past. What made him murder Meredith this time?

What else do we know about Rudy? Did he have a history of sexual assaults/rapes?

[n/t]

Is that a side door? It looks like it has bars of some sort. I don't see how the intruder could've gotten in through that top window? Is that the one they claim was where the intruder got in?

[iluvmua]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7qGMtyDIg

(Kristian Leontiou's Some Say)

[Jester]

Is that a side door? It looks like it has bars of some sort. I don't see how the intruder could've gotten in through that top window? Is that the one they claim was where the intruder got in?

The photo of the cottage behind Amanda's sisters shows the front door, and on the wall around the corner (to the left), upper window, is Filomina's window.

It looks like there are shutters on the window. A couple of windows have a 2x4 nailed across after the murder. The question that comes to mind is how could Amanda not have seen the broken window when she arrived at the cottage. It was right in her view, as was the wide open front door. If there are shutters, then maybe Rudy closed the shutters. Did he also close Filomina's door? Did he also close the door to the hallway that leads to Amanda and Meredith's bedrooms? If so, he spent a lot of time in the house around the time of the murder. If he didn't close the shutters, and didn't close Filomina's door, then it's really hard to believe that Amanda didn't see the window either before she entered the cottage, or immediately after - as Filomina's room is right off the living/kitchen/dining/entrance area.

[Jester]

Playing devil's advocate here....we know Rudy had a criminal background and IIRC, he burglarized a place where there were people inside. I believe he stole electronics?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With that said, he did not murder anyone in the past. What made him murder Meredith this time?

What else do we know about Rudy? Did he have a history of sexual assaults/rapes?

I don't find any clear "criminal record for Rudy" information, but I did find this ... which probably generally describes Rudy the criminal:

"One of three people accused of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in an Italian hill town was a habitual drunk, a drug user and a thief who was violent towards women, new evidence claims. "

...

“Rudy was often drunk. I know he took cocaine. Often he was off his head with the drugs that he was taking. And when he was like that he would be a nuisance to girls, he’d block their path and try to hassle them. When we were in crowded places he stole their bags,” Barrow testified, according to excerpts of his evidence printed in the Italian press. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2976474/Meredith-Kercher-murder-trial-Rudy-Guede-was-violent-to-women.html

"Stefano Bonassi, one of four Italian students who lived in the flat below the cottage where the murderous assault on Meredith Kercher took place, says he remembers Mr Guede as a “tall, thin guy who always wore basketball shoes and baggy trousers. His nickname was Body Roga”.

But there was another Rudy, the small-time drug dealer and drifter with a record of petty crime who according to some witnesses harassed women and stole from their handbags. Shortly before Kercher’s murder he was detained in Milan for an alleged theft. He had broken into a school to hide from police and had a knife in his hand. "

...

"He posted photographs of himself on his Facebook site claiming to be an extraterrestrial and making grotesque faces with the message: “Love is the only solution, enough of war, enough of killing, enough of racism, enough of hating our brothers”. But he also wrote: “I am Dracula, I will drink your blood.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5034243.ece

"He was known to police after being stopped and searched several times and was known as a petty thief and small time drug dealer."

'He was a tremendous liar, saying he had been to school when he had skipped lessons and watched TV and played video games all day."

"In September and October Guede was linked to three break-ins - two in Perugia and one in Milan. In the first he was disturbed as he rifled through the belongings of a barowner. Cristiano Tramontano told police he challenged Guede who was armed with a large knife and he ran off.

Guede also carried out another break-in at the offices of a local lawyer in Perugia and at the end of October he was arrested in Milan after breaking into a school.

There he was found in possession of a laptop and mobile stolen in the burglaries as well as a large flick knife, but he was freed and made his way back to Perugia where he met Meredith."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1081457/Rudy-Guede-Portrait-Merediths-murderer-begins-30-year-sentence.html