8/5

[who_is_it]

I remember hearing on the news Mr Jackson was behind in his rent and that is why the family members rushed over with the moving vans. They were afraid the landlord would keep his things.

in my opinion

Maybe he was behind in paying his rent..., he was often in debt.

Imo anybody who has access to the house could have stolen something -- not only the landlord but also staff.

[tiptop]

I have to say, I don't think MJ was attracted to women. I really don't think he was attracted to anyone but maybe himself. IMO

There ya go. I agree. I think MJ was asexual. He had a 12-year-old mind stuck in a 50-year-old body. He loved the innocence of children far more than normal. Like most, I dont have a clue whether he molested anyone or not. I think he did his best to cover up his degree of "innocence" wth women and marriages and children. I think he loved his kids but they reflected images of himself at various times in his life. JMO

[Poochie Pie]

IS IT ILLEGAL? Is there a written law about it? Do you have a link to the state statute? Don't bother, you don't understand what I'm trying to find out.

in my opinion Retired, I myself have heard NOTHING that suggests that it is illegal to administer in a private setting... Not that it won't change in the very near future because of this... A very fine line... It appears to be a very dangerous Drug...

Poochie

[CinderL.]

This thread is not about me. Stop baiting.

in my opinion

Oh come on, let's make it about you.....and your crazy doll thing, thinking that very scary doll was cute. :scared::lol:

[GentleBreeze]

All rent isn't due on the first of the month.

True but a lot of them are.

There was no need to take a chance of having his possessions taken. The family knew they needed to move all the many valuables out of there pronto.

The mansion sure was gorgeous though.

imo

[CinderL.]

I think he was. The more I have read and research I think he had sex and probably a lot of it with Lisa and maybe through the years with Grace. They both are very attractive women.

Plus he could have had women in other countries. I am sure he had those who were more than willing to oblige.

imo

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. :wink:

[who_is_it]

I think he was. The more I have read and research I think he had sex and probably a lot of it with Lisa and maybe through the years with Grace. They both are very attractive women.

Plus he could have had women in other countries. I am sure he had those who were more than willing to oblige.

imo

If he had he has made them sign confidentiality agreements imo. Moreover I believe he was somebody who had to get known to somebody first before getting involved in "more".

[CinderL.]

There ya go. I agree. I think MJ was asexual. He had a 12-year-old mind stuck in a 50-year-old body. He loved the innocence of children far more than normal. Like most, I dont have a clue whether he molested anyone or not. I think he did his best to cover up his degree of "innocence" wth women and marriages and children. I think he loved his kids but they reflected images of himself at various times in his life. JMO

That is how I feel too.

[who_is_it]

There ya go. I agree. I think MJ was asexual. He had a 12-year-old mind stuck in a 50-year-old body. He loved the innocence of children far more than normal. Like most, I dont have a clue whether he molested anyone or not. I think he did his best to cover up his degree of "innocence" wth women and marriages and children. I think he loved his kids but they reflected images of himself at various times in his life. JMO

I think you should read more about the topic to overcome prejudice / rumors. What I could recommend are the court transcripts or at least the Grand Jury transcpripts because they are primary sources.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe he was behind in paying his rent..., he was often in debt.

Imo anybody who has access to the house could have stolen something -- not only the landlord but also staff.

The staff was told to leave the premises once MJ went to the hospital.

He sure wont be in debt now though.

Didn't someone break into the home where ANS was staying and took her possessions out?

I highly doubt that the Jackson would just leave all of his personal possessions sitting there. I don't think MJ lacked for anything. Yes he was in debt and so are a lot of other millionaires but their life style goes right along. Even though he spent a lot of money he was still bringing in 85 million a year plus whatever AEG had given him.

imo

[CinderL.]

Retired, I myself have heard NOTHING that suggests that it is illegal to administer in a private setting... Not that it won't change in the very near future because of this... A very fine line... It appears to be a very dangerous Drug...

Poochie

I will go out on a limb here and say that IF they find that Propofol was given, Dr. M. will be charged with negligent homicide. I will cook my crow medium if I am wrong. No Problem.

[tiptop]

I think you should read more about the topic to overcome prejudice / rumors. What I could recommend are the court transcripts or at least the Grand Jury transcpripts because they are primary sources.

So you were there and know what really happened between Michael and these kids?

[CinderL.]

The staff was told to leave the premises once MJ went to the hospital.

He sure wont be in debt now though.

Didn't someone break into the home where ANS was staying and took her possessions out?

I highly doubt that the Jackson would just leave all of his personal possessions sitting there. I don't think MJ lacked for anything. Yes he was in debt and so are a lot of other millionaires but their life style goes right along. Even though he spent a lot of money he was still bringing in 85 million a year plus whatever AEG had given him.

imo

I think that I read that they advanced him ten million. The police should have secured the house. No one should have been allowed in. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

If he had he has made them sign confidentiality agreements imo. Moreover I believe he was somebody who had to get known to somebody first before getting involved in "more".

I do agree with that. I think MJ had to feel comfortable with the woman. I do think he may have been a little shy.

imo

[retiredcop]

Retired, I myself have heard NOTHING that suggests that it is illegal to administer in a private setting... Not that it won't change in the very near future because of this... A very fine line... It appears to be a very dangerous Drug...

Poochie

I agree. I think it will change also. I didn't think it was illegal to administer it in a private home either.

in my opinion

[GentleBreeze]

I think that I read that they advanced him ten million. The police should have secured the house. No one should have been allowed in. IMO

But they didn't, did they? They came back so that is why the moving van was seen at the property shortly after he died imo.

I don't blame the Jackson family one bit. All of those things inside belong to the children and I am sure KJ may have needed to get their own beds too for them to have.

imo

[Imperfect4]

So you were there and know what really happened between Michael and these kids?

There are a couple folks here who are speaking as if they lived in the same house with various members of the Jackson family. It's a little ... obsessive. :huh:

I hope no one here is taking their opinions as fact.

[retiredcop]

True but a lot of them are.

There was no need to take a chance of having his possessions taken. The family knew they needed to move all the many valuables out of there pronto.

The mansion sure was gorgeous though.

imo

Well I would think he was far enough behind for the landlord to be able to padlock the house and the family not able to enter or it would be a burglary. That's far behind. That's why they rushed over.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

There are a couple folks here who are speaking as if they lived in the same house with various members of the Jackson family. It's a little ... obsessive. :huh:

I hope no one here is taking their opinions as fact.

:scared:........

[who_is_it]

The staff was told to leave the premises once MJ went to the hospital.

He sure wont be in debt now though.

Didn't someone break into the home where ANS was staying and took her possessions out?

I highly doubt that the Jackson would just leave all of his personal possessions sitting there. I don't think MJ lacked for anything. Yes he was in debt and so are a lot of other millionaires but their life style goes right along. Even though he spent a lot of money he was still bringing in 85 million a year plus whatever AEG had given him.

imo

Yes, his name was Ford Shelley who showed personal stuff on tv shows. -- So, it's good that MJ's staff had to leave the property.

There's no doubt for me that MJ was NOT broke... but one has to admit that he sometimes didn't pay his bills.

[Poochie Pie]

I will go out on a limb here and say that IF they find that Propofol was given, Dr. M. will be charged with negligent homicide. I will cook my crow medium if I am wrong. No Problem. Agree on the negligent homicide, Cinder..!! Crow cooked medium will be fine for me as well... but, I don't think we have to worry about that.. IMO

Poochie

[tiptop]

Yes, his name was Ford Shelley who showed personal stuff on tv shows. -- So, it's good that MJ's staff had to leave the property.

There's no doubt for me that MJ was NOT broke... but one has to admit that he sometimes didn't pay his bills.

I dont think he was broke either. And not paying some of his bills ensured that. JMO

[who_is_it]

So you were there and know what really happened between Michael and these kids?

I've seen there's another, quite informative thread which is indirectly related to the old topic which I don't want to discuss anymore.

[CinderL.]

Agree on the negligent homicide, Cinder..!! Crow cooked medium will be fine for me as well... but, I don't think we have to worry about that.. IMO

Poochie

I hope not, crow doesn't taste good. I have had it a time or two. LOL

[GentleBreeze]

Well I would think he was far enough behind for the landlord to be able to padlock the house and the family not able to enter or it would be a burglary. That's far behind. That's why they rushed over.

in my opinion

I don't know where you pull these of the wall rumors from. There is absolutely no proof or a mention that the landowner was going to padlock anything.:rolleyes:

Sheesh. Do you have a link that the rent had not been paid and the landowner was going to padlock the doors? :rolleyes:

If he was going to do that it would have been done quickly and that home remained open and accessible to the Jacksons that brought the moving vans there.

ETA: And the owner's business partner is going to buy the home and make it a MJ memorial for his fans.

imo

[CinderL.]

Would you consider it illegal for a doctor to perform open heart surgery on the hood of his 1956 Buick, parked in his home garage?

And if so.... could you please direct me to the exact statute that says its illegal to perform open heart surgery in the garage.

TIA

Good example, unless it was some kind of emergency, which lack of sleep would not be. IMO

ETA: I would maybe try to move the heart patient before preforming surgery.

[tiptop]

I've seen there's another, quite informative thread which is indirectly related to the old topic which I don't want to discuss anymore.

lol, ooooooookay.

[who_is_it]

lol, ooooooookay.

Maybe I feel like going on this other thread some other day... but not now.

:seeya:

[who_is_it]

I agree. I think it will change also. I didn't think it was illegal to administer it in a private home either.

in my opinion

Could be, yes.

[BOZGAL2]

But they didn't, did they? They came back so that is why the moving van was seen at the property shortly after he died imo.

I don't blame the Jackson family one bit. All of those things inside belong to the children and I am sure KJ may have needed to get their own beds too for them to have.

imo

ITA
If they had not gone in to retrieve MJ'S and the childrens personal belongings, everything would have been on EBAY before midnight.
I do not blame them one bit either.

[retiredcop]

CPC, Section 185.

http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/182-185.html

California Penal Code Section 185

(185.) Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful
for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal
disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of:
One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification
in the commission of any public offense.
Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested
for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any
of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a
misdemeanor.


OK, you're joking right? LOL I hate to tell you this, but it has nothing to do with Diprivan.

in my opinion

[tiptop]

Maybe I feel like going on this other thread some other day... but not now.

:seeya:

Deal.

:seeya:

[retiredcop]

What you think is a complete contrast to California Landlord-Tenant Law. A landlord in NEVER permitted to padlock the house, no matter how much rent is owed. He must follow eviction procedures as set forth in the code, and once a judgement is entered against the tenant, and for the landlord, the landlord must pay a fee for the county sheriff to do the lock out. Under no circumstances is a landlord permitted to lock out a tenant.

Do you know all of this didn't happen or was about to happen???? The family was worried for some reason.

PS In most states the sheriff does the actual lock on the door.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

Move the heart patient from the Buick to the Honda before performing surgery. haha
:tonguewag:

:laugh: I think from the Honda to the bigger Buick. LOL

[Poochie Pie]

Would you consider it illegal for a doctor to perform open heart surgery on the hood of his 1956 Buick, parked in his home garage?

And if so.... could you please direct me to the exact statute that says its illegal to perform open heart surgery in the garage.

TIA Very good examples, Arguendo..!! I understand what you are saying.... But, unless there IS a Law or statute on the books re this case, Dr. Murray cannot be charged with ILLEGALLY administering the Propofol in the home... However, I believe a full scale investigation is ongoing re his "connections" and practices... WHERE the propofol came from is going to be paramount..!! IMO

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Very good examples, Arguendo..!! I understand what you are saying.... But, unless there IS a Law or statute on the books re this case, Dr. Murray cannot be charged with ILLEGALLY administering the Propofol in the home... However, I believe a full scale investigation is ongoing re his "connections" and practices... WHERE the propofol came from is going to be paramount..!! IMO

Poochie

Oh she gave me one. Check post #400. LMAO

in my opinon

[CinderL.]

Very good examples, Arguendo..!! I understand what you are saying.... But, unless there IS a Law or statute on the books re this case, Dr. Murray cannot be charged with ILLEGALLY administering the Propofol in the home... However, I believe a full scale investigation is ongoing re his "connections" and practices... WHERE the propofol came from is going to be paramount..!! IMO

Poochie

I believe he can be charged. He didn't have approval to have the drug, (even if he bought it online, it is from another country, and not legal here) he didn't have the equipment to monitor the patient. I say negligent homicide. He was negligent if he gave MJ this drug in a home setting with no knowledge of the drug or the equipment needed. IMO

[retiredcop]

Not joking. The facts, as we know them to be at this point in time, satisfy all the elements of either manslaughter, or imo, 2nd degree murder. I should have said CPC beginning at Section 185.

Maybe you should have included the subsection info. or the proper section itself. This has nothing to do with what we are discussing about administering the drug itself.

You just don't understand that, do you?

in my opinion

[BOZGAL2]

Why was DR M administering a drug which is not available by a RX? It is not available. Period. He certainly was not in a Hospital or Surgery Center.

Seems to me that is a crime in itself. JMO

[CinderL.]

Maybe you should have included the subsection info. or the proper section itself. This has nothing to do with what we are discussing about administering the drug itself.

You just don't understand that, do you?

in my opinion

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. How did he come into possession of the drug? Even if he got it online, which I doubt, it is illegal to buy from out of the country isn't it? How was he not negligent in his administering this drug?

[CinderL.]

Honda is more in the spirit of the "Drugs for Clunker" program.

:lol::lol:

[tiptop]

Why was DR M administering a drug which is not available by a RX? It is not available. Period. He certainly was not in a Hospital or Surgery Center.

Seems to me that is a crime in itself. JMO

Well, perhaps. And perhaps laws will be changed because of this.

But really, I doubt doc shopping will ever change. If not him, then her. If not her, then another. That is the nature of the beast and until people change, I doubt med professionals will change. JMO

[CinderL.]

Why was DR M administering a drug which is not available by a RX? It is not available. Period. He certainly was not in a Hospital or Surgery Center.

Seems to me that is a crime in itself. JMO

That is sure my thinking. How could it not be in some way criminal?

[Poochie Pie]

Not joking. The facts, as we know them to be at this point in time, satisfy all the elements of either manslaughter, or imo, 2nd degree murder. I should have said CPC beginning at Section 185. Second degree murder is not out of the equasion for me, Arguendo..!! If propofol was administered by him, it is pretty obvious that he was negligent... (Michael IS dead)... I have a feeling that he did not monitor as he should have, nor did he have the vital equipment that was needed for the use of this drug... No different than a drunk driving death... IMO

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Why was DR M administering a drug which is not available by a RX? It is not available. Period. He certainly was not in a Hospital or Surgery Center.

Seems to me that is a crime in itself. JMO

It's not a controlled substance. I could by it on the internet and wouldn't even need a prescription. Mr Jackson could have bought it himself.

There is no law to say it can only be administered in a hospital by an anesthesiologist either.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

Well, perhaps. And perhaps laws will be changed because of this.

But really, I doubt doc shopping will ever change. If not him, then her. If not her, then another. That is the nature of the beast and until people change, I doubt med professionals will change. JMO

tiptop, I think between this case and the ANS case, I really do think the Dr. shopping will stop, or at least give Dr.'s a second thought if they may lose everything they have ever worked for. I hope so anyway.

[Unperson1984]

Well I would think he was far enough behind for the landlord to be able to padlock the house and the family not able to enter or it would be a burglary. That's far behind. That's why they rushed over.

in my opinion

California Code prohibits padlocking for past due rent.

I haven't been around much lately...anything new?

[retiredcop]

I don't understand your logic. True.

I know, or law either.

in my opinion

[BOZGAL2]

Well, perhaps. And perhaps laws will be changed because of this.

But really, I doubt doc shopping will ever change. If not him, then her. If not her, then another. That is the nature of the beast and until people change, I doubt med professionals will change. JMO

This gives a whole new meaning to 'DR SHOPPING'.
Not even in the same category. MOO

[retiredcop]

California Code prohibits padlocking for past due rent.

I haven't been around much lately...anything new?

Another poster said they did. I believe we had advanced to the eviction process and the sheriff.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

It's not a controlled substance. I could by it on the internet and wouldn't even need a prescription. Mr Jackson could have bought it himself.

There is no law to say it can only be administered in a hospital by an anesthesiologist either.

in my opinion

It isn't a controlled substance because it isn't an RX. The protocols of the drug would dictate it's administration. IF the Dr. didn't have access to the drug in a legal way, and you are ignoring the fact that it is illegal, I believe to buy drugs from out of the country, that in it's self would be some kind of charge. IMO

[Poochie Pie]

As much as I love and respect you Ms. Pie, I have to disagree. There was probable cause to obtain the search warrants in what is now a homicide investigation. The probable cause was a dead body and a bottle of diprivan nearby. Thanks... LOL.. I appreciate the sentiment... I respect you as well.. and YES.. there certainly was probable cause to get to get the search warrants.. Absolutely... I believe I see what you are getting at... "A dead body and a bottle of diprivan nearby" certainly does suggest illegalities resulting in death...IMO.. I surrender... LOL

Poochie

[tiptop]

tiptop, I think between this case and the ANS case, I really do think the Dr. shopping will stop, or at least give Dr.'s a second thought if they may lose everything they have ever worked for. I hope so anyway.

I would love to think that, but I dont think so. Some are in it for money. If they have the license, they can be persuaded by the stardom. And give someone anything they want. The money and "status" is all that is needed, and that will always be available IMO.

[Unperson1984]

I think you should read more about the topic to overcome prejudice / rumors. What I could recommend are the court transcripts or at least the Grand Jury transcpripts because they are primary sources.

Have you read the Grand Jury transcripts?

:confused:

[retiredcop]

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. How did he come into possession of the drug? Even if he got it online, which I doubt, it is illegal to buy from out of the country isn't it? How was he not negligent in his administering this drug?

Maybe Mr Jackson bought in online himself. He sure wanted it bad enough. I'm not to sure a doctor can't get that medication. Dr K had it too.

in my opinion

[BOZGAL2]

It's not a controlled substance. I could by it on the internet and wouldn't even need a prescription. Mr Jackson could have bought it himself.

There is no law to say it can only be administered in a hospital by an anesthesiologist either.

in my opinion

That is not the point I was making. You can buy anything on the internet.
Last time I checked DR'S were still taking an oath.

But thank you for your opinion.

[CinderL.]

I would love to think that, but I dont think so. Some are in it for money. If they have the license, they can be persuaded by the stardom. And give someone anything they want. The money and "status" is all that is needed, and that will always be available IMO.

Yes, there is the money. I just think of the Dr.'s and med students that I know, and the amount of work and money it takes to become a Dr. seems so tough. I just for the life of me can't understand how they could put all of that on the line. :confused:

[Unperson1984]

Another poster said they did. I believe we had advanced to the eviction process and the sheriff.

in my opinion

Yes the sheiff can padlock the premises, but only after a Court hearing and by Court order.

[retiredcop]

There is case law.

When does malpractice become manslaughter?


A person whose behavior is "grossly negligent" may be liable for involuntary manslaughter if his or her conduct results in the accidental death of another person [18]. Most jurisdictions hold that something more than ordinary negligence must be proven before the defendant can be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. This usually requires that there be a substantial danger not only of bodily harm, but also of "serious bodily harm or death." The defendant must have acted "recklessly," a term defined as a "gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe" in the same situation [18]. The court must consider all the circumstances surrounding the incident, including the social utility of any objective the defendant is trying to fulfill. For example, take the case of a defendant who kills a pedestrian while driving 60 miles per hour (96 km per hour) in a residential area where the speed limit is 35 miles per hour (56 km per hour). The defendant's conduct may be held to be criminally negligent if he was simply out for an afternoon drive, whereas it might not be so deemed if he was racing his critically ill son to the hospital.

A California appeals court has explained the differences between the varying degrees of murder and manslaughter [19]:

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought. Malice may be expressed or implied, and implied malice is present when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances appending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart. First degree murder is murder committed by specified lethal means or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premediated killing, or a killing which is committed in the perpetration of enumerated felonies; all other kinds of murder are of the second degree.
Second-degree murder based on applied malice is committed when the defendant does not intend to kill but engages in conduct that endangers the life of another and acts deliberately with conscious disregard for life. An essential distinction between second-degree murder based on applied malice and involuntary manslaughter based on criminal negligence is that in the former, the defendant subjectively realized the risk to human life created by his conduct, whereas in the latter the defendant's conduct objectively endangered life, but he did not subjectively realize the risk. [In any event], the defendant [must be found] guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/179/2/331

OK, I wasn't talking about the death. Just a doctor administering the drug in a private setting period.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

Maybe Mr Jackson bought in online himself. He sure wanted it bad enough. I'm not to sure a doctor can't get that medication. Dr K had it too.

in my opinion

I actually have said many times that I think it did come from Dr. K.
I would like for someone, not me.....:scared: to try to really buy it. I haven't seen anyone say that they bought it. I have seen that it was online, but needed a script. Do you know anyone who has actually bought this online?

[CinderL.]

OK, I wasn't talking about the death. Just a doctor administering the drug in a private setting period.

in my opinion

He died.....

[retiredcop]

Yes the sheiff can padlock the premises, but only after a Court hearing and by Court order.

Yes, we covered all that.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

tiptop, I think between this case and the ANS case, I really do think the Dr. shopping will stop, or at least give Dr.'s a second thought if they may lose everything they have ever worked for. I hope so anyway. I wish I could believe it will stop, Cinder.... However, I don't believe it will until some of these Dr.'s REALLY pay the ultimate price for their actions..!! I'm talking serious Jail time.. Losing their license doesn't seem to phase many of them..

Poochie

[retiredcop]

Give us a link. You are the only poster I have seen suggesting this, and imo, you know it.

I'm not suggesting anything. I was ASKING if it is illegal for a doctor to administer the drug Diprivan in a private setting. Nothing about dying, and nothing about equipment, just the administering of the drug in a private setting. It is not a controlled substance BTW.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

I wish I could believe it will stop, Cinder.... However, I don't believe it will until some of these Dr.'s REALLY pay the ultimate price for their actions..!! I'm talking serious Jail time.. Losing their license doesn't seem to phase many of them..

Poochie

I think it is going to happen. We have to wait and see. But, I see ANS's docs and HKS going down. And I see a few of these MJ docs going down too. Again, I hope so.

[retiredcop]

He died.....

What about all the times he didn't die. I am simply wondering if it is illegal and a doctor can be arrested for administering this drug in a private setting period.

in my opinion

[Poochie Pie]

That is not the point I was making. You can buy anything on the internet.
Last time I checked DR'S were still taking an oath.

But thank you for your opinion. Absolutely..!! I believe part of the oath is "Do No Harm".... Which it appears that Dr. Murray MAY have failed miserably at... IMO

Poochie

[BOZGAL2]

Absolutely..!! I believe part of the oath is "Do No Harm".... Which it appears that Dr. Murray MAY have failed miserably at... IMO

Poochie

Bingo Poochie :thumbsup:

[CinderL.]

I'm not suggesting anything. I was ASKING if it is illegal for a doctor to administer the drug Diprivan in a private setting. Nothing about dying, and nothing about equipment, just the administering of the drug in a private setting. It is not a controlled substance BTW.

in my opinion

I don't think you can separate the way in which it was given from the equation. IMO the drug was obtained illegally. It was given without the proper protocols. The patient died because of both of these things. It doesn't matter if it is controlled or not. It is not a drug that has an RX. However it was obtained it was illegal. IMO

[CinderL.]

What about all the times he didn't die. I am simply wondering if it is illegal and a doctor can be arrested for administering this drug in a private setting period.

in my opinion

OK again, IMO yes.

[retiredcop]

I have a much greater understanding of California law than I have of RetiredCopLaw.

Now you're just showing your frustration by being insulting.
I'm leaving now just because of that.

PS Just because you live in CA does not make you an expert in CA law.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Why don't you just wait and see if the good doctor is arrested or not. And when he is arrested, you can come here and post that its not really an arrest, but its protective custody. And when it goes to trial, you can come here and post that its not really a criminal trial, but its the rehearsal for the newest episode of Boston Legal.

What did you just say?????

[retiredcop]

I asked for a link to your claim that the Landlord had a judgment of eviction against MJ, and that the sheriff was prepared to lock him out, pursuant to that judgment.

I don't know why. I never claimed that. You were the one who brought up the eviction stuff, remember?

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

Now you're just showing your frustration by being insulting.
I'm leaving now just because of that.

PS Just because you live in CA does not make you an expert in CA law.

in my opinion

But, Really Retiredcop, law or not, doesn't common sense have to kick in at some point? A man has died from a drug (if true) that has no business being given outside of a medical setting. The Dr. was there, the propofol was there. What are your conclusions? Do you think this Dr. should go away scott free?

[Poochie Pie]

Now you're just showing your frustration by being insulting.
I'm leaving now just because of that.

PS Just because you live in CA does not make you an expert in CA law.

in my opinion awwww... Come on retired... You know you're leaving because you're going to BED..!! No need to lay a guilt trip on Arguenda.... LOL.. Just joking with you.. I have enjoyed all of the discussion this evening.. Thanks for your input.. :seeya:

Poochie

[retiredcop]

But, Really Retiredcop, law or not, doesn't common sense have to kick in at some point? A man has died from a drug (if true) that has no business being given outside of a medical setting. The Dr. was there, the propofol was there. What are your conclusions? Do you think this Dr. should go away scott free?

I don't think he should be jailed or lose his medical license unless they have the proper evidence and he has violated a particular law.

in my opinion

[Unperson1984]

What about all the times he didn't die. I am simply wondering if it is illegal and a doctor can be arrested for administering this drug in a private setting period.

in my opinion

No, it's not illegal.

[retiredcop]

awwww... Come on retired... You know you're leaving because you're going to BED..!! No need to lay a guilt trip on Arguenda.... LOL.. Just joking with you.. I have enjoyed all of the discussion this evening.. Thanks for your input.. :seeya:

Poochie

I have too. Thanks for you input too.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

No, it's not illegal.

Thanks, I didn't think so.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

I don't think he should be jailed or lose his medical license unless they have the proper evidence and he has violated a particular law.

in my opinion

I think he did break a law or two, we'll see. Again where did he get the drugs? If I get Meth or heroin from someone, and I shoot up someone, and that person dies, would I not go to jail? This drug isn't an RX. It is only available here in the USA in a hospital or surgical setting. Where did it come from. IMO where ever it came from was illegal. The Dr. then gave an illegal drug to a person. He should be held accountable.

[VC2]

No, it's not illegal.

disagree. Any MD giving propofol without the correct monitoring equipment and rescue equipement is guilty of reckless endangerment. That is a crime. Administering the drug might not be, just ethically wrong like what ratner did-he had the monitoring and rescue equipment. When you leave out the very minimum requirements for safe administration and are a physician so know what they are....thats not ethically challenged it is reckless endandgerment.

It is not illegal to drive a car but if you drive a car recklessly and injure someone then its reckless endangerment. If you kill them, it is reckless disregard for human life.

IMO

[CinderL.]

disagree. Any MD giving propofol without the correct monitoring equipment and rescue equipement is guilty of reckless endangerment. That is a crime. Administering the drug might not be, just ethically wrong like what ratner did-he had the monitoring and rescue equipment. When you leave out the very minimum requirements for safe administration and are a physician so know what they are....thats not ethically challenged it is reckless endandgerment.

It is not illegal to drive a car but if you drive a car recklessly and injure someone then its reckless endangerment. If you kill them, it is reckless disregard for human life.

IMO

Oh thank you. I think you said it better than I have been trying to say. I think negligent homicide. But, I don't know the law.

[CinderL.]

It sure got quiet in here.
:ohmy:

:ohmy: It has.

[BOZGAL2]

disagree. Any MD giving propofol without the correct monitoring equipment and rescue equipement is guilty of reckless endangerment. That is a crime. Administering the drug might not be, just ethically wrong like what ratner did-he had the monitoring and rescue equipment. When you leave out the very minimum requirements for safe administration and are a physician so know what they are....thats not ethically challenged it is reckless endandgerment.

It is not illegal to drive a car but if you drive a car recklessly and injure someone then its reckless endangerment. If you kill them, it is reckless disregard for human life.

IMO

Bingo VC2 :thumbsup:

I get excited when I get to say it. :laugh:

[Unperson1984]

disagree. Any MD giving propofol without the correct monitoring equipment and rescue equipement is guilty of reckless endangerment. That is a crime. Administering the drug might not be, just ethically wrong like what ratner did-he had the monitoring and rescue equipment. When you leave out the very minimum requirements for safe administration and are a physician so know what they are....thats not ethically challenged it is reckless endandgerment.

It is not illegal to drive a car but if you drive a car recklessly and injure someone then its reckless endangerment. If you kill them, it is reckless disregard for human life.

IMO

It's not a controlled drug, so let's ask this question...if MJ had not died, could Murray be arrested?

There is no law against a licensed physician using a non-controlled drug off-label.

[Poochie Pie]

disagree. Any MD giving propofol without the correct monitoring equipment and rescue equipement is guilty of reckless endangerment. That is a crime. Administering the drug might not be, just ethically wrong like what ratner did-he had the monitoring and rescue equipment. When you leave out the very minimum requirements for safe administration and are a physician so know what they are....thats not ethically challenged it is reckless endandgerment.

It is not illegal to drive a car but if you drive a car recklessly and injure someone then its reckless endangerment. If you kill them, it is reckless disregard for human life.

IMO Thanks VC2..!! Very good explanation.. I'm leaning toward the "reckless disregard for human life" since Michael DID die.... Should they decide to charge the Doctor... IMO

Poochie

[aproudmom]

Kathrine Jackson wants another autopsy.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08052009/news/nationalnews/jackos_ma_cries_murder__183037.htm

OMG No way another one

[aproudmom]

Anyone know what happened to Athena and TooDarnTired?

not sure Buzzz I think Athena was going on a vacation darn her I sure need one not sure about the other person...

[Poochie Pie]

It sure got quiet in here.
:ohmy: Sure did........:unsure:

[CinderL.]

Anyone know what happened to Athena and TooDarnTired?

banned.......

[aproudmom]

Just throwing this in - found it interesting.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/Bust-Check-Out-MJs-Bust-52512812.html?yhp=1

Hi Goo got your PM thanks a bunch
now were in the heck did you find that..it sure does look like him or some good photoshop:biggrin:

[aproudmom]

Really? It says no longer a member instead of banned? I thought you had to be banned a certain period of time, before you advance to no longer a member. If you are no longer a member, you could just recreate the same nic. (not that anyone would ever do that)

what? Athena is not on here anymore..I have been on the Amber Alert thread so have not posted with her for a few days..maybe she got smart and got out of this crazyness..lol..J/K

[aproudmom]

God forbid you should ever have heart problems, but in the event you ever do, I'm sure Dr. Murray will be accepting new patients and able to fit you into his case load.

:scared: you better bet if I needed a heart doc I would be checking them out like crazy...he will lose his license I have no doubt about that just don't know for how long and then he can even go to another state and get a new one...yikes no matter what sorry but IMO he should not have anyone's life in his hands...BTW did I read his father had some problems also as far as his license

[BOZGAL2]

Anyone know what happened to Athena and TooDarnTired?

Thats an odd question for this thread. :huh:
What makes you ask that? :shrug:

[CinderL.]

:scared: you better bet if I needed a heart doc I would be checking them out like crazy...he will lose his license I have no doubt about that just don't know for how long and then he can even go to another state and get a new one...yikes no matter what sorry but IMO he should not have anyone's life in his hands...BTW did I read his father had some problems also as far as his license

except he couldn't pass his last test, so maybe he couldn't pass whatever test he needs to take in another state.

[daniel green]

Its not a controlled substance. The drug in itself isn't illegal, but the administration of it, in such a reckless manner, that results in the death of a human is unlawful.

No. There is no law about giving diprivan in a house or outside the hospital.

[aproudmom]

I don't think he should be jailed or lose his medical license unless they have the proper evidence and he has violated a particular law.

in my opinion

If he was also giving him demerol and xanax and klonopin and so on of course he should lose his license why not? it is against the law to give a known addict controlled substances..They shut 2 docs down here this year for the same thing they were pill dealers..

[daniel green]

snipped All of those things inside belong to the children and I am sure KJ may have needed to get their own beds too for them to have.

imo

Is this a for real post? :confused:

She needed their beds? :huh:

[Emerald]

JMO

Joe/Katherine Jackson would not be a party to any civil action against DR. Murray. MJ's children are the only parties who would have cause.

Just like in OJ. Only Nicole's children and the parents of Ron Goldman were parties in the civil action.

[daniel green]

Very good examples, Arguendo..!! I understand what you are saying.... But, unless there IS a Law or statute on the books re this case, Dr. Murray cannot be charged with ILLEGALLY administering the Propofol in the home... However, I believe a full scale investigation is ongoing re his "connections" and practices... WHERE the propofol came from is going to be paramount..!! IMO

Poochie

Indeed. And there is no law or statute about it.

[BOZGAL2]

No. There is no law about giving diprivan in a house or outside the hospital.

But if a patient dies as a result of administering the drug in this setting, it would be considered criminal. JMO

[daniel green]

However it is very unusual to do so without the proper equipment to monitor the patient and it appears in this case there wasn't. I don't know if it rises to the point of criminal negligence but it surely makes this doctor suspect of malfeasnace (sp) at best.

Oh, it is ill-advised and negligent, but not illegal.

[aproudmom]

No. There is no law about giving diprivan in a house or outside the hospital.

I checked the other night to see if it was added yet and it was not..

[daniel green]

But if a patient dies as a result of administering the drug in this setting, it would be considered criminal. JMO

The doctor could be charged. But giving a patient diprivian in a house, or a chevy or wherever is not illegal. Which was what was alleged upthread.

[daniel green]

There is no law against injecting bleach into someone either, but because it would be so reckless to do it, and because it is forseeable that injecting bleach will result in serious injury or death, you can be held criminally responsible if it can be proven that it was the direct cause of death.

imo...of course.

Nice to see you DanielGreen.
:patriot:

Right. That is right.

And good to see you as well--wish you would come to Politics more often!

[Unperson1984]

There is no law against injecting bleach into someone either, but because it would be so reckless to do it, and because it is forseeable that injecting bleach will result in serious injury or death, you can be held criminally responsible if it can be proven that it was the direct cause of death.

imo...of course.

Nice to see you DanielGreen.
:patriot:

Unlike diprivian, bleach is not approved as a drug.

[daniel green]

I'm not suggesting anything. I was ASKING if it is illegal for a doctor to administer the drug Diprivan in a private setting. Nothing about dying, and nothing about equipment, just the administering of the drug in a private setting. It is not a controlled substance BTW.

in my opinion

NO. There is no law or statute about that.

It is stupid and reckless and dangerous and Dr M, if MJ died from it, is in a world of hurt.

[daniel green]

Unlike diprivian, bleach is not approved as a drug.

Thx, Unperson. Where was my head?????? :blushing::blushing::blushing:

[aproudmom]

Indeed. And there is no law or statute about it.

is this a drug this doctor could get though is my question? he did not do out patient surgery did he? so if he was buying this and using it in this manner would that make a difference he had NO Hospital privileges so he was not taking it from a hospital that we know of...and if he was giving someone a drug that he had to have known was not something to use but did it anyway then I think he could be charged...seems like all the other doctors were in aw when they heard this was being used by a doctor in a home setting..JMO

[daniel green]

In your opinion, what was the probable cause necessary to obtain the search warrants, which authorized the police and DEA to search for evidence of homicide?

Manslaughter.

I believe it was the Rxing to an addict, which the warrants state clearly.

[daniel green]

No, it's not illegal.

Thank you yet again, Unperson. I thought I had lost my marbles or something seeing, clearly, that it is not illegal as was alleged a few pages back.

[aproudmom]

NO. There is no law or statute about that.

It is stupid and reckless and dangerous and Dr M, if MJ died from it, is in a world of hurt.

I just wonder if it was still in his system and then we all know in a court of law they have to prove he gave it to him..and I do not see him jumping up and down saying I did it...jmo

[aproudmom]

Unless the DA can prove criminal intent by someone this will be a civil case not criminal. I think that it is going to be hard for them to prove criminal intent as much as I think that Dr Murray is respoinsible for his death.

I heard that tonight that it would more than likely be a civil case and not a criminal don't know if it was on JMV or NG

[daniel green]

It's not a controlled drug, so let's ask this question...if MJ had not died, could Murray be arrested?

There is no law against a licensed physician using a non-controlled drug off-label.

Thank you.

And lemme add here that RetiredCop was treated very nastily for posting a salient question about whether or not it was illegal to administer diprivan in a home. And that seemed harsh and unnecessary.

Oh, and she was right.

[aproudmom]

That is my own conclusion as I don't watch either of those two screaming meemies. :smile:

:laugh:I know what you mean actually I just had the TV on to see if any updates on the missing/murdered little boy....I like Mike G. on HLN..

[daniel green]

So you don't think the diprivan is relevant to the case, since it is not a prescribed drug?

Of course I don't.

[Emerald]

I am sorry you are wrong here. Any member of the immediate family has a right to file a wrongfull death action. Whether they prevail is another issue. What you are saying is that if Ron Goldman had children, only his children could file suit not his parents.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. In OJ, the Brown Family (Nicole's parents and Siblings) was not a party to the lawsuit. Neither was the Sister of Ron Goldman (Kim).

The estate of MJ would be the party to the civil action. Perhaps Katherine, since she was named in the will. I don't know.

This is just my opinion. I am not an attorney.

[daniel green]

The only debunked part was her pumping his stomach.

She alleges. And says she doesn't know how to do it. But if she had someone else do it, well, fine.

[aproudmom]

Thank you.

And lemme add here that RetiredCop was treated very nastily for posting a salient question about whether or not it was illegal to administer diprivan in a home. And that seemed harsh and unnecessary.

Oh, and she was right.

:confused:OK guess I missed it..but I see things going both ways not sure what your talking about but I have seen some pretty harsh things on here before..so would not be the first time or last..we are all adults the last time I checked..JMO

[aproudmom]

I guess you forgot about the gay porn that was also found?

Not to be rude but just don't want to see the padlock on here
I don't care to discuss the allegations or the trial it will only cause CW to shut this down..we are not suppose to talk about that stuff was the last I knew..if it has changed someone can let me know..TIA

[tv4me]

I think Michael is dead because of Dr. Murray. It has bothered me from the beginning that Dr. Murray said (can't remember the exact words) but it was something along the lines that he left the room and when he came back Michael was no longer breathing. If Dr. Murray had given Michael diprivian, wasn't he supposed to monitor Michael continuously until it was time to "wake" Michael up? By leaving the room, wouldn't this be like a doctor leaving a patient alone in the operating room?

I believe Michael died because his vital signs weren't being continuously monitored. This is Dr. Murray's fault. He left his patient alone. I don't think however, that an autopsy can prove this. Michael may have had a boat load of other drugs in his system, but I think being left alone after being given diprivian did him in. If Dr. Murray isn't charge with manslaughter, hopefully he will at least, be banned from practicing medicine. (Didn't he flunk his latest med test? How can he still practice medicine?)

[aproudmom]

Murray already told the police he gave MJ diprivan? No need to prove that anymore then. They found it in Murray´s room, stashed in a closet in his room.

imo

ok read that but was not sure if it was correct thanks feelings

[Emerald]

I am sorry you are wrong here. Any member of the immediate family has a right to file a wrongfull death action. Whether they prevail is another issue. What you are saying is that if Ron Goldman had children, only his children could file suit not his parents.


I forgot to add......

MJ's immediate Family was his children. Not his parents or his siblings.

[aproudmom]

I was just responding to those that posted they believed he was heterosexual or asexual. IMO There is more evidence IMO that he was neither.

I find the idea that he had relationships with women in other countries preposterous. imo

o ok what is asexual? I keep seeing that sorry I know what Gay and Lesbian, bi-sexual is sorry guess it is the small town I am from never heard that term used..

[Emerald]

Are you saying that your own parents or siblings are not your immediate family? I don't know about you but mine are.

How I consider them and how they are defined by law is not the same.

Another example is George Smith who disappeared from the cruise ship on his honeymoon. His parents/sister had no cause of action. Only his wife.

[Rayosunshine]

Has anything new been release re: cause of death?

Thought I heard on JVM last week, something about an overdose of oxycontin and demerol - is this true?

[Rayosunshine]

The operative word here is recommended not approved. There is nothing that is said it can't be used in a home with the proper monitoring equipment.

That is the key, "proper monitoring equipment". I'll also add resuscitative equipment and meds and someone who knows how to help in a code.

[aproudmom]

I think Michael is dead because of Dr. Murray. It has bothered me from the beginning that Dr. Murray said (can't remember the exact words) but it was something along the lines that he left the room and when he came back Michael was no longer breathing. If Dr. Murray had given Michael diprivian, wasn't he supposed to monitor Michael continuously until it was time to "wake" Michael up? By leaving the room, wouldn't this be like a doctor leaving a patient alone in the operating room?

I believe Michael died because his vital signs weren't being continuously monitored. This is Dr. Murray's fault. He left his patient alone. I don't think however, that an autopsy can prove this. Michael may have had a boat load of other drugs in his system, but I think being left alone after being given diprivian did him in. If Dr. Murray isn't charge with manslaughter, hopefully he will at least, be banned from practicing medicine. (Didn't he flunk his latest med test? How can he still practice medicine?)

there was a report that he did leave the room and found him with a faint pulse..and yes when you have this a professional anesthesiologist is to be in the room the whole time watching the monitors..that is what they are trained to do and why surgeons do surgery and anesthesiologist play a huge role during the time you are in the OR..I actually ask to talk to them rather than the doctor because I feel they have my family and me in their hands just as much as the doctor...I even told them to give my little sister a small amount before taking her in to have her gallbladder taken out she was having Panic Attacks..so he gave her a small amount to relax her before she was rolled into the OR..When I had it I told them do not strap my arms down until I am out..those poor people I bet they hate me but my mom came out of knee surgery and she woke and could not breathe and NO ONE was in the room the nurse stepped out so now I make sure my family is watched even when they are coming out of it.....

[Rayosunshine]

IMO A person needs neither status or lots of money to doctor shop and get rx'd just about any meds they want.

Boy, I wish I would have known who to shop with a few months ago - I couldn't get a Tylenol. But did finally get appropriate pain meds once diagnoses was complete. I guess I'm not real street smart.

[Emerald]

Well Emerald, it is apparent that you and I disagree on this subject and with that I bid you all a fair goodnight. It is not my intention to disrupt this thread since I am new and maybe don't know the ropes yet.

:confused:

Sorry. Didn't mean to offend you. I thought we were having a sane discussion.

[Emerald]

Boy, I wish I would have known who to shop with a few months ago - I couldn't get a Tylenol. But did finally get appropriate pain meds once diagnoses was complete. I guess I'm not real street smart.

I was in Wal-Mart the other day, had to show ID and sign something to get some over the counter allergy/sinus tabs. They wouldn't let me get a second (one for the car, one for the house) until next month. It was generic SinuTabs. :blink:

[Rayosunshine]

Murray already told the police he gave MJ diprivan? No need to prove that anymore then. They found it in Murray´s room, stashed in a closet in his room.

imo

Murray - "stupid is as stupid does"

I would never in a million years think a doctor would give a drug like diprivan in the home.

A little trivia - the FDA was on the verge of banning a drug for use in the home (I can't remember the name of it) for patients who are terminal and in severe pain. The drug is in liquid form and is given by drops on the tongue. Thank God they did not ban that drug - many with terminal cancer can no longer swallow and this drug was very rapidly acting. Drugs taken into the GI tract have unpredictable absorption rates and are really not appropriate for these individuals.

I had just had surgery and was still in the hospital when I heard about the diprivan - blew my mind.

[Rayosunshine]

So, nothing has been released yet as to cause of death?

[Rayosunshine]

Someone who knows how to dial 911 in a timely manner sure doesn't hurt either. Nice to see you RayOSunshine.

Nice to see you too Arguendo.

[CinderL.]

Murray - "stupid is as stupid does"

I would never in a million years think a doctor would give a drug like diprivan in the home.

A little trivia - the FDA was on the verge of banning a drug for use in the home (I can't remember the name of it) for patients who are terminal and in severe pain. The drug is in liquid form and is given by drops on the tongue. Thank God they did not ban that drug - many with terminal cancer can no longer swallow and this drug was very rapidly acting. Drugs taken into the GI tract have unpredictable absorption rates and are really not appropriate for these individuals.

I had just had surgery and was still in the hospital when I heard about the diprivan - blew my mind.

Liquid morphine is what they gave my mother for us to give her at home.

[Rayosunshine]

So sorry CinderL. Darn, I can't remember the name of the drug. As an R.N. am rapidly getting to old to be safe.

[Rayosunshine]

Roxanol. That's it. Just had to look it up.

[Rayosunshine]

I often wonder if MJ committed suicide because he felt he would not be able to deliver the 50 concerts in one year. Has anyone else thought this might be a possibility?

[Emerald]

Walmart? :no:

:confused:

[Rayosunshine]

Hope you're home and feeling better!

Nope,nothing offical has been released yet as far as COD

Thanks Sandy. Am doing great. Really enjoying the time off 5/6/09 to 10/01/09 or thereabouts. I don't want to go back to work!

[Emerald]

I often wonder if MJ committed suicide because he felt he would not be able to deliver the 50 concerts in one year. Has anyone else thought this might be a possibility?

Yes, I've considered that possibility. But dismissed it. He had to have a schedule for the rehearsals and preparations for the concert. For many years MJ had not had that pressure. Not too many 50 year old men who would be able to train from scratch like he was attempting. Tantamount to training for a grueling one year marathon.

JMO

[aproudmom]

Diprivan

Diprivan is not approved as a sleep aid by the FDA. CNN discusses its use in office procedures, urology, dentistry, gynecology and colonoscopies where it is thought effective because of the quick recovery time.

A Mayo Clinic study in 2008 found Diprivan use associated with a higher risk of cardiac arrest and deaths in patients with a condition known as refractory status epilepticus, prolonged seizures that do not respond to initial treatment. Mayo Clinic no longer uses Diprivan to treat RSE patients.

Diprivan, also known by its generic name propofol, was allegedly found in the Jackson house has a 100 percent death rate for most abusers says Dr. Paul Wischmeyer of the University of Colorado, to the New York Daily News. “A cc too much of this drug can change you from being high to being dead. There is no margin for error for this drug. It kills people.”

Dr. Wischmeyer led a 2006 study of Propofol after a colleague doctor died from the drug. Looking at 126 teaching hospitals, he found 25 abusers among which seven had died. Among them, six were medical residents, and one was a medical assistant. Dr. Wischmeyer says the only abusers who stand a chance of surviving are the few doctors who become addicted.

"That somebody would be receiving this at home, that's just unfathomable," he said.

"Propofol was often the final drug used in a pattern of controlled substance abuse," the study noted. "This pattern may be because of the ease of obtaining Propofol."

Despite this 2006-2007 study, the FDA did not regulate the drug. Dr. Wischmeyer believes that this tragedy should lead to regulation of Propofol.



Propofol (marketed as Diprivan and as generic products) Information
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/PostmarketDrugSafetyInformationforPatientsandProvi ders/ucm109357.htm

FDA ALERT [6/15/2007] - FDA is issuing this alert to inform healthcare professionals
FDA recommends that healthcare professionals who administer propofol for sedation or general anesthesia carefully follow the recommendations for handling and use found in the current product labeling.

Drug Details
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/drugsatfda/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.DrugDetails

Drug Safety Information for Healthcare Professionals
Types of Safety Announcements
Early Communication About an Ongoing Safety Review: This type of communication is part of FDA's effort to communicate early with the public when the agency is still evaluating data and has not reached a conclusion. FDA shares information in the interest of informing doctors and patients about the issues that are under review and when FDA experts anticipate completing their review.
Information for Health Care Professionals: Also referred to as a Healthcare Professional Information sheet, this information from FDA is for doctors, pharmacists, nurses, and other health care professionals. It contains an "alert" (a summary of the new safety information), detailed information about the safety issue, factors to consider when making treatment decisions, information for health care professionals to discuss with patients about their roles in reducing the risks from the drug, and a summary of the facts or data that serve as the basis for the information in the sheet

[aproudmom]

I was in Wal-Mart the other day, had to show ID and sign something to get some over the counter allergy/sinus tabs. They wouldn't let me get a second (one for the car, one for the house) until next month. It was generic SinuTabs. :blink:

they do that at CVS also.. heck dollar store wont even allow a kid under the age of 18 to buy a can of spray paint....and I just sent him in to grab me a can so I did not need to get out of the car..there is another med that you can only get so many times a year and you have to sign for it because they use something in it to make meth..

[aproudmom]

I looked something up today....of course I can't recall it in it's entirety. I'll look it up again in the am.

Latoya says in her book that MJ when under lots of stress couldn't breath, once rushed to the ER & he was Dx'd with an abnormally small chest cavity.

* It sounded like a classic panic attack to me...which IMo would be expected given his history.

Just wondering if that had something to do with his death....if there was something to LaToya's claims.

During the trial he went to the hospital with a panic attack..no link and not looking for it right now but did not surprise me one bit..if anyone has had a full blown Panic Attack it is the most terrifying thing I had my first one at the age of 20 I am 37 and still have a hard time I wont make this about me but it is horrible and so many do not understand it and then you get where you can not leave your home in fear of having one..all I have to say is unless you have dealt with them and I do not mean stress and anxiety I mean Panic Attacks you have no idea what it can do to you and your family it is hard to understand....I would give my right arm to never have another one..sorry not about me but I do feel for anyone who has to live with Panic attacks and depression..and I could easily have became a addict if I had not been strong enough for my kids..I did drink for 6 months 7 days a week for a month at 21 but found out it would not stop them and I would just wake up to the same thing..I have wanted to die, I have been through 2 divorces and missed alot...so I do have some passion for any addict because I know I could be in their shoes...

[aproudmom]

Michael Jackson Suffers Panic Attack At VMAs

Michael Jackson was so horrified with a panic attack before getting his birthday gift from Britney Spears at the MTV Video Music Awards he almost didn’t go on stage. An MTV insider revealed,

Michael Jackson and His Anxiety Panic Attacks
According to news, MJ had some extreme anxiety panic attacks to begin with which was fueled by the pressures of media After the volume-crushing bashing he has received from media, it is not surprising for Michael Jackson to have some symptoms of anxiety panic attacks. This led him to rely heavily on medications to get by, which eventually became the cause of his death

http://panicattackhelponline.com/apparently-michael-jackson-suffered-from-panic-attacks

Panic Disorder is a serious condition
that around one out of every 75 people might experience. It usually appears during the teens or early adulthood, and while the exact causes are unclear, there does seem to be a connection with major life transitions that are potentially stressful: graduating from college, getting married, having a first child, and so on. There is also some evidence for a genetic predisposition; if a family member has suffered from panic disorder, you have an increased risk of suffering from it yourself, especially during a time in your life that is particularly stressful.

You probably recognize this as the classic ‘flight or fight’ response that human beings experience when we are in a situation of danger. But during a panic attack, these symptoms seem to rise from out of nowhere. They occur in seemingly harmless situations–they can even happen while you are asleep.

Did the Media Kill Michael Jackson?

Pressure was put upon Michael Jackson to always perform at his best when doing television performances. In late 1995, he was rushed to the hospital after collapsing during rehearsals for such a performance. The incident was caused by a stress-related panic attack.
http://tvtbt.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/did-the-media-kill-michael-jackson/

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More blah..blah..blah.
The kids are being sheltered and protected. The Jackson clan is protecting them. They loved and adored their father and vice versa. Paris' grace at the memorial was a total tribute to the way MJ had raised her with such poise and intellect.
Michael did not kill himself, the doctor went to sleep while he was supposed to be watching him. Yeah...I would rehearse my but off for days on end and then kill myself. As for money..the Jacksons have money. You should read up on some articles.
This is not rocket science.

I have to disagree with you pattycake, the kids will know EXACTLY what is going on. You think they have no TV, newspapers, magazines or internet? You think they don't get to speak to anyone that does?

Kids can be very cruel to each other so I'm sure they would have heard about all the allegations from other kids they have had contact with.

If they don't know now they will do very soon, there will be no escape from it. Their father was an eccentric, overspending drug addict with a questionable interest in boys. A man who openly admitted to sleeping with young boys on national TV.

You may love his music or admire him for his charity work but please remember he was still a human being and human beings do terrible terrible things all the time. :sad:

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I don't want to open videos - is there a transcript?

Or maybe someone can answer - how does she know he wasn't molested?

Kids can like their molester. They can even enjoy what is happening, and look forward to it. If given drugs or alcohol, they can even not remember it. So the quotes given so far do not disprove a thing to me. But if she says he said he was never abused - that'd be a bit more solid (although kids, particularly boys, tend to deny it for a very long time - even more than girls, it's considered to be their shame more than the abuser, and people will, honestly and truely, suggest that they must now be gay because of the abuse).

Imagine it's a fact the allegations are false. Once the allegations had been made what Mr. Jackson could have done to prove the allegations as false? Which words / actions would it have required in your opinion that you believed him?

This is no rhetorical question. I would be interested to know under which circumstances even you would believe the allegations are false.