Remember the RW Harrassment Memo?

[daniel green]

Posted here?

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356614

Well, whattayaknow, it's been put to work! Hope everyone watched the canned "protests" at town hall mtgs today, with ppl even bussed in. Nothing like trying to shout out, literally, free speech and American's desire for health care reform.

Here they are:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

[daniel green]

Unfortunately, though, a well-organized, belligerent and loud group of right-wingers stood in the aisles and across the back and disrupted the town meeting throughout. They yelled, shouted and jeered, and it was clear that they were not there to participate, but instead to try to disrupt the meeting and make it difficult as possible for anyone else to ask questions. They jeered from the moment the director of the Constitution Center stood to welcome everyone. For a few days leading up to the town meeting, e-mails circulated around Philadelphia warning that the "tea-b-------" were planning to protest the meeting and, although there were fewer of them than there were supporters--they made more noise shouting about "socialism,"
"abortion," and "assisted suicide." ...The fury and rancor in the faces of the right wingers at the town meeting made it clear that this was not about health care only. It is about fear and raw anger, already inside them, now directed toward the health care debate. They see defeating health care legislation as their opportunity to re-visit the Presidential election

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denise-dennis/right-wingers-wreak-havoc_b_249897.html

[Brentwood]

gop mobs disrupt town halls.

How civil of them to send the rent-a-mobs.

[daniel green]

ThinkProgress reported today on the growing number of angry right-wing activists viciously harassing Democratic, as well as moderate Republican, members of Congress on health care reform. Jonathan Cohn wrote that these tactics represent “classic astroturf organizing, in some cases bankrolled by the health care industry.” The insurance industry is sending staff members to over 30 states to “confront” lawmakers about health care reform. Simultaneously, Cohn writes, the health care industry will use the August recess to “flood the airwaves with ads picking apart reform legislation.” Indeed, AHIP, the lobbying juggernaut for the health insurance industry, has promised to change its tone and begin running negative ads on reform soon. ThinkProgress sat down today with Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) to discuss efforts by the health insurance industry and the right wing to derail health reform. Asked about the recent ambushes at town halls, Durbin expressed confidence that his “colleagues won’t fall for a sucker-punch like this”:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/03/durbin-townhalls-gone-wild/

[daniel green]

The same lobbyist-run groups which orchestrated the tea party protests — Americans for Prosperity, run by a former associate of Jack Abramoff, and FreedomWorks, run by former Republican Majority Leader and current lobbyist Dick Armey — are now pushing to use the August recess as an opportunity to present a guise of public opposition to health care reform. ThinkProgress obtained a leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with Tea Party Patriots, a website sponsored by Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, that details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress. Recommended tactics include: “yell,” “stand up and shout,” and “rattle” lawmakers.

http://thinkprogress.org

[daniel green]

snipped We as Americans have a right to hear what our representatives have to say with out being disturbed by paid shills for the insurance companies.

We sure do.

How sad is it, really for ppl to actually do that, though? Pathetic.

[daniel green]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/inside-the-tea-partiers-anti-health-care-organizing-campaign.php

[daniel green]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/boehners-office-cheers-on-disruption-of-house-dems-town-hall-events.php?ref=fpb

[watcher2005]

Which persons in the videos are "insurance company staffers?"

How dare they speak unscripted at a town hall with imperfect coiffure!

[Freedom1]

These dispicable tactics are nothing new for the fringe right wingers. What is amazing is they don't realize they are hurting themselves by allowing themselves to be used to destroy any government effort that will help them. Somehow, given the mentality of those that would support these tactics, it doesn't surprise me.

You were watching Fox News this morning weren't you? A Democrat tried making that case this morning that these are all right wing crazies who are just hurting the party. But the fact is, and which he totally ignored when questioned, is that these protestors are also Democrats and Independents and REAL people with REAL concerns about the way this government has handled other programs, i.e. social security, medicare, medicaid, cash for clunkers, and they are in a total shambles. Why would anyone want government running their health care?

You can continue to propogate the lie that these protestors are all right wing, but IMO you are only hurting yourself with these lies. It seems that anyone who doesn't agree with you or who doesn't want to go along with government intrusion into their lives, is a nut case.

[ABC]

Which persons in the videos are "insurance company staffers?"

How dare they speak unscripted at a town hall with imperfect coiffure!
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[ABC]

The Left invented these type of tactics and continues to use them - see Acorn.

Ever hear of Saul Alinsky?

I'm pretty sure BO has.

:laugh:
Sure have heard of Saul, who actually is a brilliant guy and taking advice from his essay sure can't hurt the GOP.

[Mimi428]

You were watching Fox News this morning weren't you? A Democrat tried making that case this morning that these are all right wing crazies who are just hurting the party. But the fact is, and which he totally ignored when questioned, is that these protestors are also Democrats and Independents and REAL people with REAL concerns about the way this government has handled other programs, i.e. social security, medicare, medicaid, cash for clunkers, and they are in a total shambles. Why would anyone want government running their health care?

You can continue to propogate the lie that these protestors are all right wing, but IMO you are only hurting yourself with these lies. It seems that anyone who doesn't agree with you or who doesn't want to go along with government intrusion into their lives, is a nut case.

I'm sure there are average folks who are concerned after the ridiculous lies & scare tactics were ratcheted up - it was hard to miss "the government will demand that Granny be euthanized".

But it seems pretty disingenous to deny that there is & has been a hard push by the most conservative & rightwing folks to squash healthcare reform. You can go to the FreedomWorks website, which could hardly be called anything BUT conservative & rightwing & see all the exhortations to scream & shout against what they refer to as "Obamacare".

[Freedom1]

I'm sure there are average folks who are concerned after the ridiculous lies & scare tactics were ratcheted up - it was hard to miss "the government will demand that Granny be euthanized".

But it seems pretty disingenous to deny that there is & has been a hard push by the most conservative & rightwing folks to squash healthcare reform. You can go to the FreedomWorks website, which could hardly be called anything BUT conservative & rightwing & see all the exhortations to scream & shout against what they refer to as "Obamacare".

I never denied that conservatives are actively working against government control of health care. I myself am writing letters and will attend a town hall meeting if one comes to my area.

But it is disengenuous to say it is just republicans. I am an independent. Democrats are also attending these meetings and voicing their concerns.

[ABC]

I'm sure there are average folks who are concerned after the ridiculous lies & scare tactics were ratcheted up - it was hard to miss "the government will demand that Granny be euthanized".

But it seems pretty disingenous to deny that there is & has been a hard push by the most conservative & rightwing folks to squash healthcare reform. You can go to the FreedomWorks website, which could hardly be called anything BUT conservative & rightwing & see all the exhortations to scream & shout against what they refer to as "Obamacare".

Well, what difference does it make? The Dems have not only a Majority in the Congress Place but a filibuster proof Senate with their 60 Dem votes to 40 Repub votes. This thing should have been voted in by the Dems yesterday and gone to the White House for the "Decider" to sign and get the ball rolling.

[Mimi428]

I never denied that conservatives are actively working against government control of health care. I myself am writing letters and will attend a town hall meeting if one comes to my area.

But it is disengenuous to say it is just republicans. I am an independent. Democrats are also attending these meetings and voicing their concerns.

I have no idea who may believe it is ONLY Republicans. Personally, I believe there is a good portion of folks who would describe themselves as Libertarians.

And there certainly seems to be a portion made up of folks who have been so alarmed by the "euthanize Grandma" nonsense that they are ready to oppose anything. Problem is, they don't seem to be interested in &/or capable of paying enough attention to figure out that they are being lied to by sources that are most decidedly RW conservative.

I fully expect them all to either cancel their enrollment in Medicare or to decline to be enrolled in Medicare when they are eligible. After all, we wouldn't want them in a position of not being able to WALK the WALK, after they have talked the talk of being completely opposed to any government healthcare plan.

KWIM?

[Mimi428]

Many people have already paid their dues as fair as Medicare is concerned so why would you expect them to not take advantage of what is rightfully theirs? They should give up their rights IF they oppose "any" (this particular) health care plan?

Depends on what your position is, I think.

Are you opposed to ANY government healthcare plan?

Some folks say they are opposed because they don't want what they call "socialized" healthcare.

If you are opposed to socialized healthcare, per se, you certainly would be opposed to Medicare, which absolutely IS socialized heathcare.

So what is it, exactly, that you are opposed to? ANY socialized healthcare? SOME socialized healthcare?

Speaking only for myself, I would prefer a universal health care system - a one-payor system.

Whats your preference?

[Hey Paula]

What is even scarier to many is when they ask their congressman about what is in the bill, they DO NOT know. The congressmen haven't read it and aren't doing a good job of explaining it to alleviate anyone's concerns and fears.

All the people are asking for is their representatives to know what they are voting for and why. If they don't have good answers for their constituents, they should be challenged until they do have a good answer. imo.

It has come to a point where more Americans than members of Congress have read these Bills.

Most Americans have now lost faith and trust in their elected officials.

IMO

[Barbara2]

Depends on what your position is, I think.

Are you opposed to ANY government healthcare plan?

Some folks say they are opposed because they don't want what they call "socialized" healthcare.

If you are opposed to socialized healthcare, per se, you certainly would be opposed to Medicare, which absolutely IS socialized heathcare.

So what is it, exactly, that you are opposed to? ANY socialized healthcare? SOME socialized healthcare?

Speaking only for myself, I would prefer a universal health care system - a one-payor system.

Whats your preference?

Speaking only for myself, I'm opposed to a health care plan that is being written by dozens of people, none of whom are communicating with each other so no one seems to know what is REALLY in this healthcare plan. I'm opposed to the idea that this is so important but it has to be done FAST rather than well. I'm opposed to a plan that the plan writers themselves do not want to be a part of.

Google Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel and read his views on what he believes the health care plan should include. That isn't any "right wing" fear mongering. That is legitimate fear based on a white house adviser's comments.

[Mimi428]

Speaking only for myself, I'm opposed to a health care plan that is being written by dozens of people, none of whom are communicating with each other so no one seems to know what is REALLY in this healthcare plan. I'm opposed to the idea that this is so important but it has to be done FAST rather than well. I'm opposed to a plan that the plan writers themselves do not want to be a part of.

<snipped>

OK, you are opposed. Got it.

Any chance you can relate to us what you would be FOR? What sort of healthcare plan you would be IN FAVOR of?

[Barbara2]

<snipped>

OK, you are opposed. Got it.

Any chance you can relate to us what you would be FOR? What sort of healthcare plan you would be IN FAVOR of?

One that is not written by politicians.

[Freedom1]

I have no idea who may believe it is ONLY Republicans. Personally, I believe there is a good portion of folks who would describe themselves as Libertarians.

And there certainly seems to be a portion made up of folks who have been so alarmed by the "euthanize Grandma" nonsense that they are ready to oppose anything. Problem is, they don't seem to be interested in &/or capable of paying enough attention to figure out that they are being lied to by sources that are most decidedly RW conservative.

I fully expect them all to either cancel their enrollment in Medicare or to decline to be enrolled in Medicare when they are eligible. After all, we wouldn't want them in a position of not being able to WALK the WALK, after they have talked the talk of being completely opposed to any government healthcare plan.

KWIM?

You don't even know what's in the plan so how can you be SURE that there is no "euthanize grandma" in the plan? Nobody knows what's in the plan. And how would you expect the congress to get a health care bill as complicated as this one will be completed within a few weeks? Do you think that's a smart idea? And why do you think they want to rush it through? And you wonder why people are a little nervous about what the heck is in there?

It's always the fault of the RW nuts, right? The left is so used to being fed lies and being manipulated by the left that they no longer can use their common sense. THIS BILL SHOULD BE A BIPARTISAN BILL AND IT WILL TAKE MORE THAN TWO WEEKS TO DO IT RIGHT. And Congress should go back to their consitutents during the August recess and listen to them and do what they are supposed to do - work on behalf of their constituents. If it means taking a little bit of heat, then so be it. THEY WORK FOR US. And not just SOME of us but ALL of us. So that means, they work for me and you. So you don't and won't always get just what YOU want. Some of us don't want anymore government control in our lives. We don't want socialism and we will fight to prevent it, to save this Republic.

[Freedom1]

what was done was exactly what was said in the memo, there was no civil discourse, there was just the attempt to sabotage the meeting, just as was described in the memo, republicans are losing again and like during the election they have shown what sore losers they really are - like rich kids that take their ball home if they don't get their way

That's not how I see it. I see it as Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and some Democrats voicing their opinions against government control of their health care and who want their country back. They want to save the Republic from this socialist government that is in the White House right now. If it takes a little yelling, good. We'll yell. If that bothers you, too bad.

[ABC]

what was done was exactly what was said in the memo, there was no civil discourse, there was just the attempt to sabotage the meeting, just as was described in the memo, republicans are losing again and like during the election they have shown what sore losers they really are

Gosh, watching Big Bill meeting with North Korea leaders. I miss Bill a lot. Denial of civil discourse is not new in the public arena, sadly. Elections come and go, Presidents come and go and elected officials come and go. We start the whole process over in 2010 and a new GE in 2012. Its not a playground.

[Mimi428]

One that is not written by politicians.

Good grief, do we really have to start off the discussion as if we were on the kindergarten level?

Do you actually have NOTHING to offer in the form of a constructive plan on how we, as a country, as a whole, should address the healthcare situation in the USA?

Healthcare costs are burying us - as individuals, as families, as a country. We have too many people who are uninsured & who cannot afford to GET insured. People are employed, have health insurance through their employer, use their health insurance, later lose their job & then find out they cannot afford private insurance & any insurance offered to them will not pay for a pre-existing condition.

People with & without insurance are being buried alive by medical debts. Medical debts are ruining peoples lives, destroying their credit, putting them on a downward scale (economically). Our workforce is being populated by more & more people who have medical conditions which could be treated, but are NOT being treated, due to lack of medical insurance.

I believe something has to be done to address this. I believe a universal healthcare system, a one-payor system, is the most reasonable solution.

What would YOU offer as a solution on how to insure more people - how to increase the number of folks who have affordable health insurance coverage?

[ABC]

what was done was exactly what was said in the memo, there was no civil discourse, there was just the attempt to sabotage the meeting, just as was described in the memo, republicans are losing again and like during the election they have shown what sore losers they really are - like rich kids that take their ball home if they don't get their way

Working class kids and middle class kids take their ball home too. Sadly, some kids don't have a ball. I want the Congress to get the Health Care Ball rolling and was always sad that Hillary was stopped in assisting the Nation with Health Care when Big Bill was President. That was the Congress, too.

[flareon]

You don't even know what's in the plan so how can you be SURE that there is no "euthanize grandma" in the plan? Nobody knows what's in the plan. And how would you expect the congress to get a health care bill as complicated as this one will be completed within a few weeks? Do you think that's a smart idea? And why do you think they want to rush it through? And you wonder why people are a little nervous about what the heck is in there?

It's always the fault of the RW nuts, right? The left is so used to being fed lies and being manipulated by the left that they no longer can use their common sense. THIS BILL SHOULD BE A BIPARTISAN BILL AND IT WILL TAKE MORE THAN TWO WEEKS TO DO IT RIGHT. And Congress should go back to their consitutents during the August recess and listen to them and do what they are supposed to do - work on behalf of their constituents. If it means taking a little bit of heat, then so be it. THEY WORK FOR US. And not just SOME of us but ALL of us. So that means, they work for me and you. So you don't and won't always get just what YOU want. Some of us don't want anymore government control in our lives. We don't want socialism and we will fight to prevent it, to save this Republic.

You're exactly right. The strange thing is that everyone complaining about the "staged" protests are using stock talking points. I guess they would know more than anyone about how easily people are manipulated.

There are good ideas on both sides, but some are looking at this as just pushing a bill through rather than actually correcting a problem. It is typical of many of these bills, plus they always can't help adding costly waste to them. Their main focus is to be able to say they did something, rather than actually doing something.

There is no reason why these representatives and others can't answer questions. When one can't it leads people to distrust this even more.

[Mimi428]

We don't want socialism and we will fight to prevent it, to save this Republic.

<snipped>

What the heck do you call Medicare, if not a socialist program?

[flareon]

Gosh, watching Big Bill meeting with North Korea leaders. I miss Bill a lot. Denial of civil discourse is not new in the public arena, sadly. Elections come and go, Presidents come and go and elected officials come and go. We start the whole process over in 2010 and a new GE in 2012. Its not a playground.

I know. Bill was a leader. Not so great at self-control, but he always had a firm grasp of whatever position he was talking about. That alone instilled confidence in people that even if you didn't agree with what he said, he had taken the time to learn the facts.

[flareon]

That's not how I see it. I see it as Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and some Democrats voicing their opinions against government control of their health care and who want their country back. They want to save the Republic from this socialist government that is in the White House right now. If it takes a little yelling, good. We'll yell. If that bothers you, too bad.

That's what I'm hoping too. I hope people fill these meetings and insist on getting a straight answer. Hopefully now local media will cover these gatherings and report. That, itself, could fuel more involvement.

[Barbara2]

Good grief, do we really have to start off the discussion as if we were on the kindergarten level?

Do you actually have NOTHING to offer in the form of a constructive plan on how we, as a country, as a whole, should address the healthcare situation in the USA?

Healthcare costs are burying us - as individuals, as families, as a country. We have too many people who are uninsured & who cannot afford to GET insured. People are employed, have health insurance through their employer, use their health insurance, later lose their job & then find out they cannot afford private insurance & any insurance offered to them will not pay for a pre-existing condition.

People with & without insurance are being buried alive by medical debts. Medical debts are ruining peoples lives, destroying their credit, putting them on a downward scale (economically). Our workforce is being populated by more & more people who have medical conditions which could be treated, but are NOT being treated, due to lack of medical insurance.

I believe something has to be done to address this. I believe a universal healthcare system, a one-payor system, is the most reasonable solution.

What would YOU offer as a solution on how to insure more people - how to increase the number of folks who have affordable health insurance coverage?

Sure. I participate in the discussion without resorting to insulting a person with whom I disagree by inferring that they operate at the level of a 5 year old.

It is my opinion that a plan needs to be written by those who understand the issues most; doctors, hospitals and, yes, insurance companies. The contribution of politicians should be to read, comprehend, ask questions as needed and vote for the best plan possible to meet the needs of the people with a means presented for how it will be financed.

[flareon]

One that is not written by politicians.

Exactly, but you should go further and say one that is not written by politicians who are more concerned about their own political viability and paying back supporters.

[Barbara2]

Exactly, but you should go further and say one that is not written by politicians who are more concerned about their own political viability and paying back supporters.

I would say that pretty much eliminates 100% of them. :smile:

[Mimi428]

That's not how I see it. I see it as Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and some Democrats voicing their opinions against government control of their health care and who want their country back. They want to save the Republic from this socialist government that is in the White House right now. If it takes a little yelling, good. We'll yell. If that bothers you, too bad.

Rah rah.

So yell. You are allowed to do that.

But in case you haven't noticed, the yelling is not the problem. The problem is that those who are doing the yelling are not allowing anyone else to have the opportunity to have any input of their own.

No one is well-served when a vocal few demand to have all the attention & refuse to allow others the same rights you claim to hold so dear.

In my area, Lloyd Doggett was attempting to meet with people to have a discussion about a healthcare plan. But no discussion was possible, since the yellers refused to allow anyone else the opportunity to ask questions, make comments or obtain any information.

[daniel green]

Yes,:rolleyes: we all saw your first LIBERAL HOAX thread, that was shut down by Coldwater. IMO.

Really, huh? A hoax? But, then a week later it happens, down to the letter, as per the memo?

[flareon]

I would say that pretty much eliminates 100% of them. :smile:

I agree. Their behavior during this whole health care debate has been questionable at best. Why would someone have to give them pocket talking points and buzzwords if these people are supposed to be well informed.

If you are pushing a good product, you don't need sleazy tactics to market it.

[Barbara2]

there wont be anymore meetings if republicans keep disrupting them, how can you have a meeting when some are there specifically to disrupt the meetings, the memo is out there, and they are doing exactly what was stated in the memo, republicans need to be civil, ask questions, expect answers, but do not try to disrupt by yelling whenever the speaker speaks, that is just rude and uncivilized

The meetings are rather pointless until they can answer two questions; how much is it going to cost and how is it going to be financed? I wouldn't even buy a car without having that information. I don't understand how anyone can think that they can buy this program without knowing how it will be financed. IMO

[daniel green]

if they had the truth on their side they would not need to resort to the sleazy tactics described in the memo

No kidding. And so limited in scope. That is what is pathetic. Yell and scream and shout pre-written remarks. So original.

Bless their hearts.

[Barbara2]

the same way bush's war was financed, by the tax payer, you bought the war didn't you, we all did, even those that did not want it, the universal plan will cost less for the majority of America then they are paying now, what more do you want to know about the cost? exactly how much depends on how many join the plan, the more that join the less the cost

O.K. So if the plan is enacted next month and I decide to join, how much is it going to cost me?

[Freedom1]

Rah rah.

So yell. You are allowed to do that.

But in case you haven't noticed, the yelling is not the problem. The problem is that those who are doing the yelling are not allowing anyone else to have the opportunity to have any input of their own.

No one is well-served when a vocal few demand to have all the attention & refuse to allow others the same rights you claim to hold so dear.

In my area, Lloyd Doggett was attempting to meet with people to have a discussion about a healthcare plan. But no discussion was possible, since the yellers refused to allow anyone else the opportunity to ask questions, make comments or obtain any information.

And there are other cases such as the one in California, where Senator Feinstein refused to meet with a group of seniors. Wow, big of her, don't you think? Do you think she was scared? Were they going to shout her down? No. More likely she didn't have any answers for them so she chose to ignore them and send them on their way -- the same people, incidentally, who pay her wages and who she WORKS for.

Lloyd Doggett probably hired people to yell at him so that he didn't have to answer any questions.

By the way, when you find out what's in the PLAN, please enlighten us.

[Mimi428]

It is my opinion that a plan needs to be written by those who understand the issues most; doctors, hospitals and, yes, insurance companies. The contribution of politicians should be to read, comprehend, ask questions as needed and vote for the best plan possible to meet the needs of the people with a means presented for how it will be financed.

<snipped>

Somewhere in all of that it sounds as if you want doctors, hospitals & insurance companies to legislate for us. What about the pharmacies, should they be included? Why should the people we elect as our LEGISLATORS be excluded from the process of writing legislation? I was under the impression that is the reason they have their positions in the first place.

Anyway, after the self-interested doctors, hospitals & insurance companies write up a plan - who should determine how it will be funded? The docs, hospitals & insurance companies - or is it at that point that the legislators come in?

Have you ever known any doctors who are participants in joint ventures with other doctors - like private hospitals, for example? Ever known of any hospitals who have acquired the latest & greatest in cutting edge technology - like the DaVinci robot, for example?

Here's a little secret I learned a very long time ago - a doctor who is part of a joint venture is more likely to recommend you go to a specialist who just ALSO (such a coincidence) happens to be involved in the same joint venture, rather than a different specialist who is not participating in that venture. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

How, in your scenario, are you going to reduce the likelihood that the doctors, insurance companies & hospitals are going to want legislation that primarily adds to their own weath, that simply serves them, rather than address the greater needs of everyone?

[Freedom1]

O.K. So if the plan is enacted next month and I decide to join, how much is it going to cost me?



:w00t: Good luck.

[Freedom1]

While that may be true it was enacted in 1965 which negates any argument that it isn't a program that people should opt out of in order to - as you put - it WALK THE WALK.

Not to mention that Medicaid and Medicare are in a heap of financial trouble.

[Barbara2]

<snipped>

Somewhere in all of that it sounds as if you want doctors, hospitals & insurance companies to legislate for us. What about the pharmacies, should they be included? Why should the people we elect as our LEGISLATORS be excluded from the process of writing legislation? I was under the impression that is the reason they have their positions in the first place.

Anyway, after the self-interested doctors, hospitals & insurance companies write up a plan - who should determine how it will be funded? The docs, hospitals & insurance companies - or is it at that point that the legislators come in?

Have you ever known any doctors who are participants in joint ventures with other doctors - like private hospitals, for example? Ever known of any hospitals who have acquired the latest & greatest in cutting edge technology - like the DaVinci robot, for example?

Here's a little secret I learned a very long time ago - a doctor who is part of a joint venture is more likely to recommend you go to a specialist who just ALSO (such a coincidence) happens to be involved in the same joint venture, rather than a different specialist who is not participating in that venture. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

How, in your scenario, are you going to reduce the likelihood that the doctors, insurance companies & hospitals are going to want legislation that primarily adds to their own weath, that simply serves them, rather than address the greater needs of everyone?

You are right that I forgot to include the pharmacists.

[Mimi428]

While that may be true it was enacted in 1965 which negates any argument that it isn't a program that people should opt out of in order to - as you put - it WALK THE WALK.

MAY BE true?

Uh, no.

It is true. Medicare is, undoubtedly, a socialist program.

Personally, I have no problem with it being a socialist program.

I do have a problem with the folks who claim to be opposed to the present healthcare plans being debated because they are so firmly, unalterably, personally opposed to any sort of socialism in our country. The day I see them yank their parents off Medicare, give up their own enrollment in Medicare or refuse to accept it when they are eligible, I'll believe their claims. Until then, nope.

[daniel green]

snipped

It is my opinion that a plan needs to be written by those who understand the issues most; doctors, hospitals and, yes, insurance companies. The contribution of politicians should be to read, comprehend, ask questions as needed and vote for the best plan possible to meet the needs of the people with a means presented for how it will be financed.

Oh, absolutely!!!! Lookit how well they have done so far giving us this marvalous system we have where we are the 37th in the world and
50th in life expectancy. And where we pay more for less and have it so mismanaged. :rolleyes:

Oh, and add pharma to your list.

[Barbara2]

it will not be implimented for a couple years, this is only the first step, much of the cost will be paid for be the Bush tax cuts when they expire next year

For the purposes of my question, it doesn't matter when it will be implemented. So part of it will be paid for by allowing the tax cuts to expire (although I thought we were told that the additional tax monies were going to help pay down the deficit) and how is the rest going to be financed? What is this going to cost and how is it going to be paid for? That should be a lot easier to explain than trying to explain what is in the 1000+ pages of this health care plan.

[flareon]

Bless Obama's heart. He used a cancer patient to make a point at one of his recent HC jaunts. How pathetic is that?

MO

I know. He's good at props and tokens. And they are all good at trotting out the "Conestoga Wagon stories" to try to unduly influence people.

[Hey Paula]

Bless Obama's heart. He used a cancer patient to make a point at one of his recent HC jaunts. How pathetic is that?

MO

A cancer patient who is also a volunteer for BO's political operation.

[Barbara2]

How much do Europeans Pay for Health Care in Taxes?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090728134507AALP5Hi

We were told not to compare this plan to either the European or Canadian because this plan is nothing like either of those.

[Barbara2]

it will cost you less then you are paying today if it doesn't no one would switch, it's that simple, no one can give you an exact number at this time, because until the number of people that will select it is known, that can not be determined, if only 100 people take it, obviously it would not be cost effective, if millions take it the cost goes down, and the more people that take it the more the cost goes down

Well then let's see those dollar figures so we can be informed consumers. If nobody is going to buy, it is pointless to go any further. IMO

[Barbara2]

who told you that? it will not be exact, but it will have many of the same components of the best of the best systems in the world

We're now going to the single payer system??

[daniel green]

The White House and allied Democrats are ramping up efforts to make belligerent anti-Obama town hall crowds -- and the media outlets that feed their resentment -- the face of opposition to the president's health care agenda, aides tell the Huffington Post. On Tuesday morning, the White House's new media team released a 3-minute video hitting back at "falsehoods" and "misstatements" about the president's plans. Notably, the clip highlighted the popular conservative site, the Drudge Report, for posting an old and spliced video clip claiming that the president wanted to eliminate private insurance. This wasn't the first time the Obama White House has used its own media outlets to whack its foes. But sources tell Huffington Post that Tuesday's video is the harbinger of a much larger effort to change the tide on health care reform. As detailed by White House officials and aides at allied groups, the goal going into the August recess is not to be intimidated by the angry protesters laying siege to town hall meetings or the information pushed by unfriendly websites, but rather to turn that anger and material into a rallying point for proponents of reform.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/obama-and-dnc-try-turning_n_250890.html

Poor Dick Armey, he never learns.

[Adalena935]

The OP's link sited violence in the protests.

That's not true at all. :rolleyes:

[Adalena935]

All huffington post all the time.

Anyone who wants to can go there on their own and read their leftist drivel in lieu of anything else if they so chose.

Tantamount to:

http://rightwingnews.com/

:lol:

[Mimi428]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/obama-and-dnc-try-turning_n_250890.html

Poor Dick Armey, he never learns.

Thanks for that link.

To me, this relates to all we were discussing on the thread about McCain saying that without Hispanics joining the GOP, the party would suffer.

I have watched a short clip from the Lloyd Doggett 'siege' - & siege is a good word to describe it. Protesting is one thing, harrassment & not allowing anyone else to get a word in is not what this country is about - & I think that the more that goes on in the vein, the more the moderates in this country will be turned off.

I really believe that there will be a repeat of what we saw last year - & a whole lot more Republicans than just McCain will be facing a group of their own supporters & find that they have to go OFF the message they intend to deliver - & try like h#ll to counter the impression that their supporters are irrational hate-mongers.

As far as I am concerned, I hope more of the media covers these events, where the protesters are showing themselves to be uncivilized, hateful people - completely uninterested in the subject of debating healthcare - but solely interested in trying to bring down the POTUS.

At Doggett's event, there were people carrying signs that belong in the hands of neo-Nazis. Drawings of Doggett as the devil - horns & all. You don't need Dale Carnegie to know that behavior like that will not win friends & influence people.

JMO

[daniel green]

snipped

As far as I am concerned, I hope more of the media covers these events, where the protesters are showing themselves to be uncivilized, hateful people - completely uninterested in the subject of debating healthcare - but solely interested in trying to bring down the POTUS.

At Doggett's event, there were people carrying signs that belong in the hands of neo-Nazis. Drawings of Doggett as the devil - horns & all. You don't need Dale Carnegie to know that behavior like that will not win friends & influence people.

JMO

Couldn't agree more. The same folks who brought us the tea parties--Dick Armey's group--brings these. I hope they are put under the bright light of tv cameras every time they do so.

As far as the signs, well, you know, same ones as at the tea parties.

[ABC]

All huffington post all the time.

Anyone who wants to can go there on their own and read their leftist drivel in lieu of anything else if they so chose.

Tantamount to:

http://rightwingnews.com/

:lol:
I read American Thinker and Huff Post every day.: I am interested in good writing and not scared of oppossing views. scared::scared:

[Mimi428]

The OP's link sited violence in the protests.

That's not true at all. :rolleyes:

If someone hung you in effigy outside your office or home, would you consider that an act of violence?

I know I would.

[daniel green]

"It is a small fringe group," Schumer told the Huffington Post, "and if we let a small group of people who want to monopolize the conversation and not listen to the facts win, you may as well hang it up." "These town hall meetings have been orchestrated by the tea b------ and the birthers to just be a free-for-alls, make a lot of noise, go on YouTube and show discord," said Durbin. "I mean that is what they are determined to do. But that is not going to accomplish what we need to accomplish: real health care reform."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/durbin-schumer-town-hall_n_251077.html

Man oh man, way to have it backfire.

[theal3]

Couldn't agree more. The same folks who brought us the tea parties--Dick Armey's group--brings these. I hope they are put under the bright light of tv cameras every time they do so.

As far as the signs, well, you know, same ones as at the tea parties.


It's sickening to watch. They are there only to disrupt and deny those who want to hear from their Congressperson, an opportunity. It's anti-democracy, uncivil, anti-American. I hope they keep showing these nut cases, and the birthers with their fake Kenyan certificate.

I've never seen such disrespect. So much for the right to peacefully assemble. It's not grassroots driven, it coming from Lobbyists using these folk like sheep.... they did the teaparties to get names and organize to use them for these disruptions and lord knows what else, and all appear, to me, to be older angry white folks in mostly rural areas. If anything, I think Dems should just not have the townhall meetings to give the likes of them a "forum." Have even more resolve to go back and vote for the reform. IMHO

They are sickening to watch.

[daniel green]

Since members of Congress have been returning home to their districts for the August recess, a consortium of industry-backed right-wing groups have been planning ambushes to harass Democrats for supporting health care reform. ThinkProgress obtained a leaked memo from a volunteer with Tea Party Patriots, a website sponsored by lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, that details how members should be disrupting town halls and “rattling” Democratic members of Congress. Last night, Rep. Steve Kagen (D-WI) and Rep. Steve Driehaus (D-OH) were apparently the latest victims of this strategy. Kagen, whose town hall was targeted by the Wisconsin chapter of Americans for Prosperity, was “repeatedly disrupted” by “incomprehensible” shrieks and shouts from angry conservatives. Driehaus politely allowed an already angry crowd of tea party people into his town hall, and greeted them by saying, “I know that there are those with the tea party group and I welcome you and I welcome them to my office.” Despite his offer for constructive dialogue, within minutes, members of the right-wing crowd began booing and hissing with repeated howls of “move to Europe!” Greg Sargent reports that Rick Scott, the disgraced hospital executive bankrolling the anti-health reform group Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, is now joining the effort to disrupt health care town halls. The for-profit health industry is contributing a great deal of resources to pressure lawmakers against reform. Last weekend, the health insurance lobby announced that they will be sending staff to “confront” lawmakers at town halls and will be transitioning to negative ads. Update "In spite of the loud, shrill voices trying to interrupt town hall meetings and just throw a monkey wrench into everything," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "we're going to continue to be positive and work hard."

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/04/kagen-driehaus-townhall/

Videos at the link.

"Move to Europe." :rolleyes: UnAmerican and, what are they, 10 yr olds? :rolleyes:

[Mimi428]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/03/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5209291.shtml

In a statement appearing in Politico and the Statesman Web sites, Doggett called the group a "mob" and called the group part of the "party of no."

"This mob, sent by the local Republican and Libertarian parties, did not come just to be heard, but to deny others the right to be heard. And this appears to be part of a coordinated, nationwide effort. What could be more appropriate for the 'party of no' than having its stalwarts drowning out the voices of their neighbors by screaming 'just say no!'" Doggett said in the statement. "Their fanatical insistence on repealing Social Security and Medicare is not just about halting health care reform but rolling back 75 years of progress. I am more committed than ever to win approval of legislation to offer more individual choice to access affordable health care. An effective public plan is essential to achieve that goal."

ITA - it's one thing to ask questions & expect answers - it's a whole 'nother thing to deny others the ability to ask their own questions & hear the answers.

[Mimi428]

We are shutting this down, and it is really getting to some of you.

WTH is that supposed to mean - "we are shutting this down".

What is your definition of 'THIS' - that you are supposedly shutting down?

[Freedom1]

I am an angry, older, white, rural folk and I missed the memo.
I have been to tea parties and I have been to townhalls. If I am on someone's list, I am not aware of it and they have failed to contact me.

That can't be!!! You MUST be one of those organized RW nuts! :unsure:

Cause nobody else in this country is allowed to have an opinion or disagree with the liberals. Only organized RW nuts do that.

[flareon]

I am an angry, older, white, rural folk and I missed the memo.
I have been to tea parties and I have been to townhalls. If I am on someone's list, I am not aware of it and they have failed to contact me.

You didn't miss the memo, you just weren't silly enough to fall for the crazy left wing talking points You know they aren't used to anyone thinking for themselves.

[daniel green]

if republicans keep disrupting the meetings and not allowing anyone to speak, unfortunately that is exactly what will happen, there will be no more town hall meetings

I disagree. That short-sighted disruption attack plan will make the town halls stronger and bigger and this will give health care reform an impetus. Ppl who were spending summer as per usual, with nary a care about politics or calling their reps and Sens, will now become active.

[Mimi428]

I am an angry, older, white, rural folk and I missed the memo.
I have been to tea parties and I have been to townhalls. If I am on someone's list, I am not aware of it and they have failed to contact me.

I believe you. There were a lot of people who were attending Doggett's attempted meeting who support a healthcare plan. Problem was, they had no opportunity to hear or be heard, due to the behavior of the wingnuts.

Have you been to any townhall meetings about healthcare anytime recently? If so, who was speaking - an elected representative? Someone else? Would you describe it as peaceful, open to questions from the audience?

[flareon]

That can't be!!! You MUST be one of those organized RW nuts! :unsure:

Cause nobody else in this country is allowed to have an opinion or disagree with the liberals. Only organized RW nuts do that.

Exactly. Well you know if they say this, it must be true. It isn't as though they have been caught in lies before. :biggrin:

[daniel green]

This radical healthcare overhaul, IMO.

You think you shut it down? :blushing:

[theal3]

if republicans keep disrupting the meetings and not allowing anyone to speak, unfortunately that is exactly what will happen, there will be no more town hall meetings

Yes, and "the memo" to the GOP and Libertarians and whoever is to go to DEM meetings and disrupt them.....from news accounts I've seen folks attending even come from outside the district, so it's not even their rep., it's plain satbotage. I hope they keep showing these "pitch fork" Americans. ha, they hate govt. run everything but like their SSecurity and Medicare, go figure.

With the internet nowdays and easy access to info, who needs townhall meetings anyway. Reps can communicate directly via the net with constiuents. Good luck to the GOP, the party of NO.

[daniel green]

It is not shut yet, we are in the process of shutting.snipped

Oh, good. I hope you are not too upset when we have health care reform in this country and health care access for the 45 million uninsured Americans.:patriot::patriot::patriot:

[Mimi428]

I am fortunate to have a representative who is also against this monstrosity of a healthcare bill. The vast majority of people around my area are also against it.
Congressman Doggett made a huge mistake imo when he indicated he would vote for it EVEN IF his constituents were against it.

So who was holding the townhall meetings you have been attending?

If you believe the majority of Lloyd Doggett's constituents are opposed to a healthcare plan - I would respectfully say that you do not know the overall makeup of his constituents.

Consider that Texas, overall, voted for McCain. Yet among the vote by Doggett's constituents - Obama won by a 20% margin.

[Freedom1]

They'll be plenty upset, but oh well.............:patriot:

We will have health care reform in this country and health access for the more than 47 million uninsured Americans. :patriot:

It's about time the U.S. catch up with the rest of the industrialized world.

jmho

47 million uninsured AMERICANS? 12 million illegal aliens don't count as AMERICAN last time I checked.

[Freedom1]

the people at THIS meeting definitely got the "memo" it sounds like

Just as all the democrats in congress got the 3x5 card from Nancy Pelosi telling them what to say at their town hall meetings.

And just as the liberal news media and liberal blogs got the memo to call anyone who attends a townhall and disagrees and dares to voice their disagreement an "organized" nut case. I'm sure you've been reading those blogs and listening to the liberal media lap dogs who have lapped that memo up.

[theal3]

the people at THIS meeting definitely got the "memo" it sounds like

Yes, sound like now they LOVE "community organizing" that they made so much fun of during the campaign. Go figure. But the lobbyist are doing the organizing, and follow like sheep, it not from grassroots up, it from top down, typical corporate, GOP thinking. IMHO. They are told to show up and make a lot of noise.... and it'll "look like" a REAL grassroots movement. LOL

[Freedom1]

Yes, sound like now they LOVE "community organizing" that they made so much fun of during the campaign. Go figure. But the lobbyist are doing the organizing, and follow like sheep, it not from grassroots up, it from top down, typical corporate, GOP thinking. IMHO. They are told to show up and make a lot of noise.... and it'll "look like" a REAL grassroots movement. LOL

I guess if it was ACORN it would probably be okay with you.

[flareon]

Just as all the democrats in congress got the 3x5 card from Nancy Pelosi telling them what to say at their town hall meetings.

And just as the liberal news media and liberal blogs got the memo to call anyone who attends a townhall and disagrees and dares to voice their disagreement an "organized" nut case. I'm sure you've been reading those blogs and listening to the liberal media lap dogs who have lapped that memo up.

Absolutely. They have been fed this nonsense on a non-stop basis and have just repeated it.

I loved the "talking points" card. I guess they don't know enough about the policy to talk it out on their own. And if you have noticed, the new "bad insurance companies" point has been pushed to death.

[Freedom1]

it's ok to picket out front, voice your concerns, hand out leaflets, call people, ect... this is none of that, this is just disrupting a meeting, the only goal is to close communication, republicans just don't get it

Or ask a question or voice a disagreement. Don't forget those. Or maybe ask for a meeting with your congressman without getting arrested.

[daniel green]

the people at THIS meeting definitely got the "memo" it sounds like

It certainly does.

[flareon]

47 million uninsured AMERICANS? 12 million illegal aliens don't count as AMERICAN last time I checked.


Exactly.

There are probably also 47 million people who don't drive a Chevy. For the majority of them, it is because they don't want one.

[daniel green]

They'll be plenty upset, but oh well.............:patriot:

We will have health care reform in this country and health access for the more than 47 million uninsured Americans. :patriot:

It's about time the U.S. catch up with the rest of the industrialized world.

jmho

Indeed. And it will be like with Medicare. The RW and the GOP fought it tooth and nail (heck, Dole was against it in 1996) but then co-opt it.

[Mimi428]

Exactly.

There are probably also 47 million people who don't drive a Chevy. For the majority of them, it is because they don't want one.

Yeah, that must be it.

When was the last time you tried to get private insurance with a pre-existing conditon? Something like diabetes, heart or lung conditions, etc.? How much do you think it would cost you, per month?

[Freedom1]

Indeed. And it will be like with Medicare. The RW and the GOP fought it tooth and nail (heck, Dole was against it in 1996) but then co-opt it.

Medicare+medicaid = $70 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Yeah, good program.

Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, some Democrats want HEALTH CARE REFORM. We do not want government controlled health care. We want congress to reform the private insurance industry. We don't want them to supply insurance.

Costs are rising each year and congress needs to address that. And medicare/medicaid contribute to those rising costs because they either undercut hospitals or they don't pay their bills at all.

[Mimi428]

Medicare+medicaid = $70 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Yeah, good program.

Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, some Democrats want HEALTH CARE REFORM. We do not want government controlled health care. We want congress to reform the private insurance industry. We don't want them to supply insurance.

Costs are rising each year and congress needs to address that. And medicare/medicaid contribute to those rising costs because they either undercut hospitals or they don't pay their bills at all.

How fast do you think Medicare would become financially stable if every adult male aged 18-30 who doesn't already have some form of health insurance was enrolled in Medicare?

As for Congress addressing rising costs - what costs are you referring to? Medical providers, hospitals & pharmacies set their OWN prices, not Congress.

What would be in your version of health care reform? How would you address the people who do not have insurance coverage & have not found a private policy that is affordable?

[Freedom1]

of course, the people on medicare/medicaid are the highest risk people to be covered, I do not seeing you ask to stop that social program and force private insurance to cover them, your rates would sky rocket

I wouldn't stop coverage but I would reform the program. What's wrong with reforming programs that currently are working?

My rates would skyrocket? I don't know your age, but my children rates and my grandchildren's rates will skyrocket if we don't reform it now.

[Mimi428]

I wouldn't stop coverage but I would reform the program. What's wrong with reforming programs that currently are working?

My rates would skyrocket? I don't know your age, but my children rates and my grandchildren's rates will skyrocket if we don't reform it now.

Good. Great.

What reforms would you enact?

[Freedom1]

How fast do you think Medicare would become financially stable if every adult male aged 18-30 who doesn't already have some form of health insurance was enrolled in Medicare?

As for Congress addressing rising costs - what costs are you referring to? Medical providers, hospitals & pharmacies set their OWN prices, not Congress.

What would be in your version of health care reform? How would you address the people who do not have insurance coverage & have not found a private policy that is affordable?

Do you even realize that Congress sets Medicare rates?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/15/AR2009071503929.html

Setting reimbursement rates for local hospitals, doctors, home health-care centers and other providers is a legislative ritual that amounts to one of the most effective and lucrative forms of constituent service. Delivering federal money through Medicare, the country's largest insurance program, can be a powerful tool on the campaign trail, allowing lawmakers to argue that they are creating jobs and improving the quality of health care for voters.

Longtime members of Congress have become masters at dominating the tug of war between keeping providers flush and trying to rein in the entitlement program's dramatic growth. House Ways and Means Chairman Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) champions New York City's teaching hospitals. Charles E. Grassley (Iowa), the Senate Finance Committee's ranking Republican, makes sure rural health-care services are amply funded. Months before Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) left office, he secured a permanent 35 percent increase in Medicare payments for Alaska physicians.



You don't think this drives up costs?

[Mimi428]

Do you even realize that Congress sets Medicare rates?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/15/AR2009071503929.html



You don't think this drives up costs?

Of course I realize Medicare rates are set by Congress.

I asked you what COSTS you were referring to. I still don't know which costs you are referring to. If you are talking about ONLY Medicare & the cost of running the Medicare program - that is a separate, stand-alone issue. Last I heard, there was no talk of opening up Medicare enrollment (at a higher premium than regular Medicare enrollees have) to those who aren't already eligible for it. Seems a shame to me, but it isn't my choice.

If you are talking about medical costs all the way around the country - for those insured & uninsured, insured through Medicare, Medicaid, Employer group plans, etc. - that is a whole other discussion.

I'm still trying to figure out how our legislators are going to address people who have NO insurance.

[Freedom1]

exactly, let's expand the public option to all that want it, the more people that join the public option, the cheaper it costs as it spreads the risks

yes their rates would increase for the private option without the public option known as medicare/medicaid

Why would you expand on something that isn't working right to begin with?

A medicare style public option would kill the private option.

[Mimi428]

exactly, let's expand the public option to all that want it, the more people that join the public option, the cheaper it costs as it spreads the risks

<snipped>

That's a plan I would want to see. Think of the benefit to the Medicare program if enrollment included people who are the youngest & most likely to be healthy - like the 18-30 year old males. They could pay 150% of the current premium & they would STILL be getting a good deal.

JMO

[Freedom1]

Of course I realize Medicare rates are set by Congress.

I asked you what COSTS you were referring to. I still don't know which costs you are referring to. If you are talking about ONLY Medicare & the cost of running the Medicare program - that is a separate, stand-alone issue. Last I heard, there was no talk of opening up Medicare enrollment (at a higher premium than regular Medicare enrollees have) to those who aren't already eligible for it. Seems a shame to me, but it isn't my choice.

If you are talking about medical costs all the way around the country - for those insured & uninsured, insured through Medicare, Medicaid, Employer group plans, etc. - that is a whole other discussion.

I'm still trying to figure out how our legislators are going to address people who have NO insurance.

You keep touting medicare/medicaid as good programs. I'm telling you they aren't. They have unfunded debt in the millions, they have extensive fraud, Congress uses medicare rates as tools to get votes in their districts. Do you think we should have a public health program that is set up like Medicaid and Medicare?

[Freedom1]

<snipped>

That's a plan I would want to see. Think of the benefit to the Medicare program if enrollment included people who are the youngest & most likely to be healthy - like the 18-30 year old males. They could pay 150% of the current premium & they would STILL be getting a good deal.

JMO

WHAT? Are you serious? OMG It's hopeless. Medicare is expected to have $32 TRILLION in debt if left as it is in the next 75 years. You think that by ADDING people to an obviously broken system that it will make it better? With no reform? 10% of the cost of Medicaid is said to come from fraud, waste and abuse.

[flareon]

You keep touting medicare/medicaid as good programs. I'm telling you they aren't. They have unfunded debt in the millions, they have extensive fraud, Congress uses medicare rates as tools to get votes in their districts. Do you think we should have a public health program that is set up like Medicaid and Medicare?

You're exactly right and more health professionals are limiting their exposure to these systems. These systems are also responsible for destroying area hospitals.

[Mimi428]

You keep touting medicare/medicaid as good programs. I'm telling you they aren't. They have unfunded debt in the millions, they have extensive fraud, Congress uses medicare rates as tools to get votes in their districts. Do you think we should have a public health program that is set up like Medicaid and Medicare?

I have not discussed Medicaid AT ALL. Nor do I intend to.

What extensive fraud do you believe exists in the Medicare program? Who is committing these frauds, in your opinion?

I believe one of Medicare's biggest problems is that there are not enough healthy participants in the program, due to the age of the enrollees. They are a high risk group, no doubt of it. If you put younger & healthier people into Medicare, you lower the overall risks while raising the money to fund the obligations.

[Mimi428]

WHAT? Are you serious? OMG It's hopeless. Medicare is expected to have $32 TRILLION in debt if left as it is in the next 75 years. You think that by ADDING people to an obviously broken system that it will make it better? With no reform? 10% of the cost of Medicaid is said to come from fraud, waste and abuse.

MEDICAID is NOT Medicare.

[theal3]

I have not discussed Medicaid AT ALL. Nor do I intend to.

What extensive fraud do you believe exists in the Medicare program? Who is committing these frauds, in your opinion?

I believe one of Medicare's biggest problems is that there are not enough healthy participants in the program, due to the age of the enrollees. They are a high risk group, no doubt of it. If you put younger & healthier people into Medicare, you lower the overall risks while raising the money to fund the obligations.

Good reasoning! Bring healthy people in, younger healthier to offset the cost of the aging. It's a win win.

[daniel green]

Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity. CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets. In response to my questions, a spokesman for the group confirmed that it has undertaken a concerted effort to get people out to the town hall meetings to protest reform. The spokesperson, Brian Burgess, confirmed that CPR is emailing out “town hall alert” flyers, and schedules of town hall meetings, to its mailing list. These efforts — combined with CPR’s effort to enlist Tea Party-ers, as reported yesterday by TPM — provide a glimpse into the ways anti-reform groups are trying to create a sense of public momentum in their favor.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/anti-reform-group-takes-credit-for-helping-gin-up-town-hall-rallies/

[daniel green]

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/04/gene-green-townhall/

[Freedom1]

an obvious lie as many would join, including myself

Hey James, just be a good little liberal and keep repeating the name calling that the liberals and the liberal media have told you to repeat when it comes to the town hall protestors. Like "mobs", "organized mobs" "tea baggers", "birthers", etc.

Not that you liberals have EVER protested at any events before. Right? Like throwing pies at conservative speakers? Ring any bells? Or the violent protest in Denver, Colorado in August 2008? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb84xVMbfqA

And you have the audacity to be upset because some people are calmly protesting the government takeover of their health care just because YOU don't agree with them? Give me a break.

[Mimi428]

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/04/gene-green-townhall/

Thanks for that link, much appreciated.

From your link...

During the town hall, one conservative activist turns to his fellow attendees and asks them to raise their hands if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Almost all the hands shot up.

Rep Green quickly turned the question on the audience and asked, “How many of you have Medicare?” Nearly half the attendees raised their hands, failing to note the irony.

Failed to note the irony. What an understatement. I was reading another article yesterday where some man told a speaker that he was opposed to government hands touching his Medicare.

If the whole subject of healthcare reform wasn't so serious to begin with some of this ignorance would be laugh-out-loud funny. I just can't fathom how anyone cannot understand that Medicare IS 'socialized or governmen-run health care'.

[barskin&co.]

I have watched footage from several of these town halls now. I would not characterize any of them as violent protests.

In the chanting and yelling, these people are speaking volumes imo. They are clearly angry and passionate and telling their congressmen in no uncertain terms that they expect them to read the bills, know what is in the bills, and slow down! Until they do these things, there isn't a lot of room for discussion. This is something that congress should take notice of and take seriously....the people ARE speaking and they are speaking loudly.

I find these protests to be very American. They are letting the congressmen know what they want representation and the congressmen better darn well listen to them.
jmo

If they had ideas with any real validity, they would not have to just shout down and suppress the discussion. They could let the others speaks, then rebut them their own data and logic. But, in point of fact, they have no ideas of their own, just the programmed shouts that are being fed to them by the BIG BUSINESS of the private health care industry.
Yes, protest is very American, but not the wholesale elimination of free debate.

[Mimi428]

No sane person would let the the government decide whether they take the blue pill or the red pill.

<snipped>

I just don't think every person on Medicare is insane - but the government most definitely tells them whether the blue pill or the red pill is going to be covered under their Medicare Part D plan.

Since I live in Texas, I have used that state to look up the status on the Medicare Plan D formulary lists.

Let's say you need a script for temazepan.

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/matchedDrugs.asp?vid=733808958&cmbState=TX&plan_specific=False&cnt=1&language=English&StyleChoice_Size=0&plan_id=3201

By law, this drug is excluded from being covered under the Medicare program. Certain plans may cover this as a supplemental benefit to their plan. However, any amount you spend for this drug is not counted toward any deductibles, initial coverage or out-of-pocket limits.

Now let's say that you are a Medicare enrollee & have come down with the flu (swine or regular) & you need relief from severe coughing - so your doctor prescribes Tessalon Perles. Too bad, so sad, the government says no dice, not covered.

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/planList.asp?vid=733808958&cmbState=TX&plan_specific=False&language=English&StyleChoice_Size=0&cnt=1

No plans were found to have ALL the drugs you selected on their formulary.

(I only put Tessalon Perles in the search, no other drugs)

Here's the start-up page - enter the name of the state you live in, then proceed to look-up the formulary...

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/selectstate.asp?javascripton=true

Formulary Finder for Prescription Drug Plans

Select your state

Welcome to the Formulary Finder for Prescription Drug Plans. This tool will allow you to find plans in your state that match your required drug list.

[Mimi428]

I have watched footage from several of these town halls now. I would not characterize any of them as violent protests.

In the chanting and yelling, these people are speaking volumes imo. They are clearly angry and passionate and telling their congressmen in no uncertain terms that they expect them to read the bills, know what is in the bills, and slow down! Until they do these things, there isn't a lot of room for discussion. This is something that congress should take notice of and take seriously....the people ARE speaking and they are speaking loudly.

I find these protests to be very American. They are letting the congressmen know what they want representation and the congressmen better darn well listen to them.
jmo

There will never be a day when I would NOT characterize hanging someone in effigy as NOT being a violent act. That is not only violent, it is despicable. And it d@mn sure doesn't fit the definition of "American".

Needing a police escort to your vehicle isn't what I would call 'non-violent' either.

I disagree that the mobs want discussion or answers - if they did, they would not make such a concentrated effort to yell over any & every attempt by others to HAVE a discussion. This isn't a democrat/republican/independent/libertarian issue - it's a question of right or wrong - & it is WRONG to deny others the right to speak.

JMO

[Freedom1]

There will never be a day when I would NOT characterize hanging someone in effigy as NOT being a violent act. That is not only violent, it is despicable. And it d@mn sure doesn't fit the definition of "American".

Needing a police escort to your vehicle isn't what I would call 'non-violent' either.

I disagree that the mobs want discussion or answers - if they did, they would not make such a concentrated effort to yell over any & every attempt by others to HAVE a discussion. This isn't a democrat/republican/independent/libertarian issue - it's a question of right or wrong - & it is WRONG to deny others the right to speak.

JMO

I think it's wrong to deny or punish anybody for their right to speak also.

So what do you think about the your President asking you to rat out people you know who disagree with his health care program by emailing the Whitehouse?

[Freedom1]

<snipped>

I just don't think every person on Medicare is insane - but the government most definitely tells them whether the blue pill or the red pill is going to be covered under their Medicare Part D plan.

Since I live in Texas, I have used that state to look up the status on the Medicare Plan D formulary lists.

Let's say you need a script for temazepan.

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/matchedDrugs.asp?vid=733808958&cmbState=TX&plan_specific=False&cnt=1&language=English&StyleChoice_Size=0&plan_id=3201

By law, this drug is excluded from being covered under the Medicare program. Certain plans may cover this as a supplemental benefit to their plan. However, any amount you spend for this drug is not counted toward any deductibles, initial coverage or out-of-pocket limits.

Now let's say that you are a Medicare enrollee & have come down with the flu (swine or regular) & you need relief from severe coughing - so your doctor prescribes Tessalon Perles. Too bad, so sad, the government says no dice, not covered.

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/planList.asp?vid=733808958&cmbState=TX&plan_specific=False&language=English&StyleChoice_Size=0&cnt=1

No plans were found to have ALL the drugs you selected on their formulary.

(I only put Tessalon Perles in the search, no other drugs)

Here's the start-up page - enter the name of the state you live in, then proceed to look-up the formulary...

http://formularyfinder.medicare.gov/formularyfinder/selectstate.asp?javascripton=true

Formulary Finder for Prescription Drug Plans

Select your state

Welcome to the Formulary Finder for Prescription Drug Plans. This tool will allow you to find plans in your state that match your required drug list.

Apparently you think it's okay because you said earlier that you wanted everybody included in Medicare. So what's the deal? Too bad so sad when you or your child or other loved one wants to take a cancer medication to live a little longer but the government says, no, there's no value in that. You have to die instead. :thumbsup: That okay with you?

[flareon]

Hey James, just be a good little liberal and keep repeating the name calling that the liberals and the liberal media have told you to repeat when it comes to the town hall protestors. Like "mobs", "organized mobs" "tea baggers", "birthers", etc.

Not that you liberals have EVER protested at any events before. Right? Like throwing pies at conservative speakers? Ring any bells? Or the violent protest in Denver, Colorado in August 2008? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb84xVMbfqA

And you have the audacity to be upset because some people are calmly protesting the government takeover of their health care just because YOU don't agree with them? Give me a break.

You're exactly right. This is just another political ploy much the same as focusing on the distrust of insurance companies. They knew how bad it looked that people are disgusted and tired of getting non-answers from people who should have a working knowledge of a policy and they figured this was a good way to diminish the growing movement to defeat this measure.

All anyone has to do to know how orchestrated this canned criticism of the protesters is would be to notice how it is the main topic of media of the far left, it has been pushed through organizations pandering to the far left and it has put out keywords to use when parroting the points. I guess if anyone would know about using a ginned up group think to make a point it would be these people. They do it everyday.

[flareon]

And don't forget that there were several posters on this forum that were supportive of a shoe-throwing Iraqi as "just exercising his democratic rights".....even though that WAS a violent act.

Exactly and this has probably been mentioned before, but they were also the ones who thought it was great when ACORN bussed in the folks to stage loud protests outside CEO's homes. Perfectly okay to disrupt an entire neighborhood plus give out people's addresses. What did the neighbors do to deserve this other than working hard and being a success?

These people have situational ethics, values and morals.

[flareon]

I am sick and tired of the thousands and thousands of protesters having to answer for one idiot with the effigy. It was an anomoly and not representative of the majority.

These are also not "mobs" (gee, where did that talking point come from?). They are saying READ the bill, take your time, and then get back to us if you want discussion. We all know through interviews, letters, speeches etc where are congressmen are on the bill, and the people are now saying they do not like it. They are speaking clearly imo.

You nailed it about the parroted buzzword. All you have to do is go look at far left sites or watch a show that panders to this group and you will hear verbatim this plan of attack.

Now maybe they are doing this to show how easily someone can be manipulated and an attack orchestrated. :biggrin:

[Mimi428]

Apparently you think it's okay because you said earlier that you wanted everybody included in Medicare. So what's the deal? Too bad so sad when you or your child or other loved one wants to take a cancer medication to live a little longer but the government says, no, there's no value in that. You have to die instead. :thumbsup: That okay with you?

Look at the post I responded to. This was written by HowlinNC -

No sane person would let the the government decide whether they take the blue pill or the red pill.

A statement like that gives the impression that today, people are not in the position to have the government decide whether they take a blue pill or a red pill. That is an erroneous premise.

Anyone with private insurance & anyone on Medicare already knows that each of those insurance options already uses a formulary (& have for years, in the case of private insurance) - & that BOTH private & government plans DO decide whether they want their enrollees to take a blue pill or a red pill.

As for your premise that you or your loved one might want to take a cancer medication, but your government plan might say "no". I believe that happens a lot more to those enrolled in private insurance plans, especially HMOs. But either way, that puts them in the exact same position that people who have NO insurance are in. Pay for it yourself.

If the option of "pay for it yourself" suits you when it comes to the uninsured, I don't know why you would have a problem with that option for those who find out their private insurance won't pay for the treatments they want. If I am wrong for confusing you with someone who does not want a government-run healthcare option, please correct me.

Both my mother & my step-daughter were diagnosed with cancer within 3 months of one another. Medicare did not deny any claims to either the hospital or the oncologist, or any of the other medical providers for my mother's cancer treatments. Just last year, she had a 2nd cancer diagnosis & Medicare again made no denials for her treatment - including some that are defned as being the 'latest technology' or 'cutting edge' treatments.

In comparison, private insurance outrightly denied over $20,000 worth of tests & treatments (none of them out of the ordinary, or experimental, or the like) for my step-daughter. Lucky for her, her parents could afford to pay for what she needed out of their own resources.

I accept the realities of the way both private insurance & government-run insurance plans operate. My argument is with those who claim or pretend there is something - or will be something - horribly wrong & drastically different with government-run insurance.

[Mimi428]

I am sick and tired of the thousands and thousands of protesters having to answer for one idiot with the effigy. It was an anomoly and not representative of the majority.

These are also not "mobs" (gee, where did that talking point come from?). They are saying READ the bill, take your time, and then get back to us if you want discussion. We all know through interviews, letters, speeches etc where are congressmen are on the bill, and the people are now saying they do not like it. They are speaking clearly imo.

I'll share the crying towel with you, because I am sick & tired of posters here claiming I believe something I don't, or support something I have never supported. If you want me to believe that incident was an anomaly & not representative of the whole, then I'm sure you won't have even the slightest hesitation to grant what you seek.

I'm guessing you have not yet seen the video taken at Lloyd Doggett's appearance, because that group & their behavior fit the definition of a mob.

Did you see that sterling character carrying a sign that belongs in the hands of a neo-Nazi? If you want me to believe he & his ilk are an anomaly & are not representative of the thinking of the majority of the protesters, then I guess you will be able to practice what you preach & quit stereotyping those of us who support healthcare reform that results in insurance coverage for all.

I won't be holding my breath. I thought yesterday's demonstration was about as plain as it gets that we have more than a few who claim they are informed enough to know they oppose the healthcare plans being discussed - & they know of a better way to manage healthcare reform - but somehow just can't even write out even one coherent paragraph of what reasonable alternatives there might be. I sure hope that is yet another anomaly, not representative of the majority of the protestors.

[Freedom1]

Look at the post I responded to. This was written by HowlinNC -

No sane person would let the the government decide whether they take the blue pill or the red pill.

A statement like that gives the impression that today, people are not in the position to have the government decide whether they take a blue pill or a red pill. That is an erroneous premise.

Anyone with private insurance & anyone on Medicare already knows that each of those insurance options already uses a formulary (& have for years, in the case of private insurance) - & that BOTH private & government plans DO decide whether they want their enrollees to take a blue pill or a red pill.

As for your premise that you or your loved one might want to take a cancer medication, but your government plan might say "no". I believe that happens a lot more to those enrolled in private insurance plans, especially HMOs. But either way, that puts them in the exact same position that people who have NO insurance are in. Pay for it yourself.

If the option of "pay for it yourself" suits you when it comes to the uninsured, I don't know why you would have a problem with that option for those who find out their private insurance won't pay for the treatments they want. If I am wrong for confusing you with someone who does not want a government-run healthcare option, please correct me.

Both my mother & my step-daughter were diagnosed with cancer within 3 months of one another. Medicare did not deny any claims to either the hospital or the oncologist, or any of the other medical providers for my mother's cancer treatments. Just last year, she had a 2nd cancer diagnosis & Medicare again made no denials for her treatment - including some that are defned as being the 'latest technology' or 'cutting edge' treatments.

In comparison, private insurance outrightly denied over $20,000 worth of tests & treatments (none of them out of the ordinary, or experimental, or the like) for my step-daughter. Lucky for her, her parents could afford to pay for what she needed out of their own resources.

I accept the realities of the way both private insurance & government-run insurance plans operate. My argument is with those who claim or pretend there is something - or will be something - horribly wrong & drastically different with government-run insurance.

It's easy to spout something on a message board - especially when you're trying to prove your point. The fact is, I'm not totally buying what you're saying about the private insurance company denying coverage, yet medicare not denying coverage. Sorry. I don't buy it. I have private health insurance and we have never been denied anything. But I do know people on Medicare and Medicaid who have been. So, I don't buy your claims.

You don't have to claim that there is something wrong with government health care, you can see with the facts that there are. $37 trillion unfunded debt in medicare. Widespready fraud, abuse and waste. All you have to do is google to find the facts. That is horrible and that is drastically wrong. So, again, sorry, I don't buy what you're selling.

[daniel green]

In an email sent Wednesday morning, the Democratic National Committee labels recent town hall disruptions as "a sham," describing them as an orchestrated effort by the health care industry to "break the President and his agenda for change." Jen O'Malley Dillon, Executive Director of the DNC, says the protests "are being organized and largely paid for by Washington special interests and insurance companies who are desperate to block reform." She accuses them of using "lies" and "fear" to sustain the status quo. "Health insurance reform is about our lives, our jobs, and our families -- we can't let distortions and intimidation get in the way," writes O'Malley, before offering five facts about the protests:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/dnc-blasts-sham-town-hall_n_251784.html

[daniel green]

It's easy to spout something on a message board - especially when you're trying to prove your point. The fact is, I'm not totally buying what you're saying about the private insurance company denying coverage, yet medicare not denying coverage. Sorry. I don't buy it. I have private health insurance and we have never been denied anything. But I do know people on Medicare and Medicaid who have been. So, I don't buy your claims.

snipped.

You do not have to believe the truth or the facts, obviously, but they are the facts.

Insurance companies make their money by denying coverage for whatever.

[Mimi428]

Mimi, I have not been one to do much stereotyping. In fact, I find you to be one of the more thoughtful people I have disagreed with. Let's just say I will agree to disagree with you on this issue.

Works for me.

:beer:

(not to be mistaken for the beer summit in the news lately)

:hat:

[Freedom1]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/dnc-blasts-sham-town-hall_n_251784.html

I don't read Huffington Post anymore. David Axelrod's son works there. They're pretty much bought and paid for by the administration.

[daniel green]

snipped
Just like you won't be able to buy private health insurance.

That is a lie.

[Mimi428]

There is nothing in Medicare that stops you from buying the drug on your own.


<snipped>

You are right - there is nothing that stops a Medicare enrollee from buying the drugs on their own (if the drugs are not on the formulary).

Nothing that stops a private insurance enrollee from buying the drugs on their own (if the drugs are not on the formulary).

And there will be nothing that stops people from buying the drugs on their own under any plan of Obama's (if the drugs are not on the formulary).

That is why it is disingenous to claim that some drastic, horrible, life-altering change will come about if the healthcare plans under discussion are enacted - like "the government will tell you whether you can have the blue pill or the red pill".

Whether it is tomorrow, today or yesterday - some drugs were/are/will be on the formulary, some not. If the drug you want is not on the formulary (or you don't have insurance to begin with) - buy it yourself.

I can't agree that only the drugs manufactured by companies that supported Obama (who were those companies, anyway?) will be on the formulary.

[daniel green]

Democratic members of Congress are increasingly being harassed by “angry, sign-carrying mobs” around the country. These town halls on health care have been marked by “incomprehensible” yelling from angry conservatives, many of whom don’t even live in the district of the meeting they’re attending. Yesterday, a reporter asked House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) whether they were a “sign of genuine grass roots opposition to the Obama health care plan”: “I think they’re Astroturf,” Pelosi said Tuesday. “You be the judge. “There is no question that people want to know what’s in the legislation, want to know how it is paid for and know what it means to them. And that is why we have town meetings, either electronically or personally. “Just because someone opposes their understanding of what this health care is, that’s not a bad thing. But some of what is orchestrated to prevent the opportunity of presenting the plan, that’s a different story,” the Speaker said.

Indeed, as ThinkProgress has reported, a leaked memo from a volunteer with Tea Party Patriots, a website sponsored by lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, details how members should be disrupting town halls and “rattling” Democratic members of Congress. The health insurance lobby recently announced that it too will be sending staff to “confront” lawmakers at town halls

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/pelosi-astroturf-2/

[daniel green]

As lobbyist-run groups encourage conservative activists to “rattle” members of Congress at local town hall events, Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA), the president of the freshman Democratic class has revealed that “at least one freshman Democrat” has already been “physically assaulted at a local event.” Connolly warned that conservative groups had taken things to a “dangerous level“: “When you look at the fervor of some of these people who are all being whipped up by the right-wing talking heads on Fox, to me, you’re crossing a line,’ Connolly said. ‘They’re inciting people to riot with just total distortions of facts. They think we’re going to euthanize Grandma and the government is going to take over.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/freshman-dem-assaulted/

[flareon]

If it is a red herring, why does Obama keep bringing it up?

"If there's a blue pill and a red pill, and the blue pill is half the price of the red pill and works just as well, why not pay half price for the thing that's going to make you well?"

What do you think his health care commission is going to be doing, if not deciding which is the most cost effective drug?


And if you stayed up and watched the hearings, you'd know that the bill says that even if the premium of your health insurance goes up, you go into the government pool; you will not be able to buy private health insurance.

They voted on that the same night they voted to give all illegals and their families health care at taxpayer expense.

Exactly. The problem is all of these mandates are going to drive up the cost of insurance for a very questionable benefit.

There is always a questionable aspect as to why doctors prescribe certain medications. I know when I went he wanted to start me with a new drug which was expensive with no generic available. I said no, let's start with the generic and see how that works. If I had started with the new drug, I would have set myself up for months/years of higher costs.

[daniel green]

Democratic lawmakers, far from being daunted by the disruptive protests at recent town halls, seem to think the angry crowds will only help their cause. "When you've got people shouting and hanging Members of Congress in effigy, most people are going to react badly to that. I think most people want to have a civil discussion," Rep. Chris Van Hollen (Md.), chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, told Roll Call. He predicted that the intemperate tactics will "backfire in a big way." The Democratic National Committee has been publicizing some of the most shocking antics, including a protester who suggested Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) treat his cancer with painkillers and whiskey and a group who compared President Obama to Hitler.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/dems-see-backlash-in-town_n_252181.html

[Circe]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/dems-see-backlash-in-town_n_252181.html

I agree........Code Pink turned a lot of people off with their antics.Doing nothing but screaming, shouting and generally acting like asses is going to do nothing but anger the people that came to ask legitimate questions and get answers. And some of those people that get mad might even be people that were agaisnt health care reform in the first place, and have ther minds changed because of the disruptions.

[Mimi428]

If Obama care controls what pharma companies can charge for certain medications, they will STOP MAKING THEM and no one will have access to that drug. Why is that so difficult to understand?

And I find it very interesting that now people need to suck it up and ...hey buy it yourself...with what? All our money is going to pay for rationed health care...where is all that expensive drug buying money going to come from? Especially elders and disabled people on fixed incomes?

The FACT is, even if all the wealthy people in this country were taxed 100% of their income it still would not pay for Obama care....they are going to have to come after the middle class to pay for this disaster and then no one will be able to afford anything the goverment doesn't allow them to have.

Welcome to 1950's USSR! IMO

I wish y'all would make up your minds between calling stuff fascist, socialist or communist.

You may believe pharmaceutical companies will stop making drugs. I don't believe that will happen. If they had no problems yesterday & have no problems today selling the exact same drugs CHEAPER outside the USA, I think they will be able to figure out how to do the same thing tomorrow.

16% of adult Americans are in the position every day to have to "buy it yourself". Do you have a solution, a remedy, a proposal for how to reduce that number? If so, please enlighten the rest us. I can't wring out any tears over your hypothetical FUTURE scenario of everyone, all over the place having increased costs, when the people promoting such projected catastrophe' are showing no concern TODAY for their fellow citizens who lack health insurance.

It all sounds too much like "I got mine, don't you dare think of asking for the same".

JMO

[Mimi428]

Actually, I don't have a problem calling a program socialist or marxist when that's what it is. YOU are the one who doesn't understand the terms, apparently, since you brought up fascism and communism.

The fact that you can't "wring out tears" over the future...shows once again how selfish and short sighted the progressives are.

"We don't care about your children or grandchildren...we want our freebies NOW" Funny how the progressives alway whine about conservatives being selfish, when that is the furthest thing from the truth and statements like yours above proves it.

You must have me confused with someone one else, because I know you have never, not ONE time, seen a post from me whining about or demanding "freebies" or anything remotely like it.

And if you are going to quote me -get it right. I made it very plain that I believe the predictions of future catastrophe's are based upon false premises - IOW, the future will not be remotely similar to the one the doomsayers predict.

If you want me to respect your right to imagine the future will be grim for your children & grandchildren by PASSING healthcare reform, then give what you expect to receive & respect MY right to imagine a future that will be worse off for my children & grandchildren if healthcare reform does NOT pass.

[daniel green]

National conservative groups organizing angry protests on health care reform at congressional town halls this week are drafting behind the "birther" movement, claimed Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) at a press conference on Wednesday. The eruption of the extreme wing of the GOP -- the "more difficult people in that political party," as Brown gently put it -- is making compromise less likely, he added.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/extremist-outbursts-at-to_n_252287.html

[Brentwood]

The RW has got away with this type of lies and dirty tricks and illegal actions over the years and they think, well it worked then...so it should work now. Well, in the information age....they are being found out!!!

They don't have a hope in heck in 2010 and beyond.

[daniel green]

This afternoon, ThinkProgress was on a conference call hosted by RNC Chairman Michael Steele. In response to a question from The Washington Times about protests inside health care town halls, Steele distanced himself and the RNC from the protesters: STEELE: "I had nothing to do with that, I did not encourage that. And we’re not encouraging people to be angry I mean to the point of being nasty and brutish and ugly. That’s not what this is about. There’s no upside for the Republican Party or the people involved to do that. Now some people, you know, that’s how they express their frustration, that’s how they express their frustration. But that’s not something deliberately coordinated by me or any one state party." In condemning these disruptions, Steele placed himself at odds with a number of other Republican leaders. Recently House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) promised that House Democrats would have a “very, very hot summer” when they had to face their constituents. Today, in fact, he even sent out a “GOP Leader Alert” that seemingly promoted the mob attacks on his colleagues:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/steele-town-hall/

[fiver]

Posted here?

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356614

Well, whattayaknow, it's been put to work! Hope everyone watched the canned "protests" at town hall mtgs today, with ppl even bussed in. Nothing like trying to shout out, literally, free speech and American's desire for health care reform.

Here they are:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

Well whattayaknow....the Administration and the Democratic caucus have made up their claims of orchestrated, paid-for, made-up-outrage out of whole cloth.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/think_progress_msnbc_manufactu.asp

It is pretty funny to think a guy sending 8 emails in JUNE with 23 facebook friends and 5 followers on Twitter organized town hall "disruptions" across the nation.

I have to wonder what realm of reality the Democratic caucus in DC and the Administration is living in.

[fiver]

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/steele-town-hall/


keyword being "seemingly".

It's quite amusing to see the minority who actually support ObamaCare go to such lengths to distract from the fact that most Americans don't support this legislation and don't approve of Obama's handling of health care.

But like the typical Chicago style politics, it's all about the orchestrated ATTACK anyone who disagrees.

[fiver]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/extremist-outbursts-at-to_n_252287.htmlWhat a completely bogus argument. They going to claim that all the registered Democrats expressing outrage at these Town Hall meetings are part of some grand GOP extremist plot?

I mean, seriously.

[fiver]

Well, they got the whole danged Media hunkered down in Lap Dog Status and they got their Classless Chicago Enforcers like Rahm in place!

They are well versed in Alinsky and BO has been well indoctrinated by his Socialist Professors.

They are also quite familiar with the concept of "Useful Idiots".

:thumbdown:
Well gosh, we learned today that the protesters are too well dressed to be anything but bussed in and paid for, so of course MSM is going to toe the line and pass on the latest Obama spin of reality.

[fiver]

You do not have to believe the truth or the facts, obviously, but they are the facts.

Insurance companies make their money by denying coverage for whatever.
They do? Well how come the Insurance Regulators don't make them pay legitimate claims? How come the Gvt isn't doing it's job in protecting the consumer????

[fiver]

I'm sick and tired of selective amnesia.

Where were these people when Bush was burned in effigy?

Where were they when people carried signs of Bush with the Nazi emblem on his face?

Yes, where were they?

[fiver]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/dems-see-backlash-in-town_n_252181.htmlWhere was all the effigy concern when it was a Sarah Palin effigy last Halloween?

All I recall hearing was crickets.

[fiver]

The irony may be that at some point this Administration or another like it may come for those not quite so well dressed.

I tried to give BO the benefit of the doubt at first but now I really don't trust him at all.
I never did for this exact reason: he engages in and encourages personal attacks against anyone who dares question him or disagree with him.

[Mimi428]

I'm sorry that you can't see a future for your children without taking money from generations yet to be born. I don't see how enslaving future generations and rationing care and determining the value of human life based on their "value" to society to receive health care, to be better than the present. Sorry. And if you believe universal health care, paid for on the backs of the taxpayers is not a "freebie", I can't explain it to you because you refuse to understand that when people get something they do not pay for, then it's free, there is no way to explain it to you so you can.

IMO



If you wish to think that national healthcare will result in dire financial obligations on our children & grandchildren, that is your right. But don't project your opinions on to me.

I don't believe the future will consist of people financially enslaved by us. I don't believe the future will be spent assessing the value of a person's life based upon their supposed value to society. I believe the majority of universal health care can be financed by the enrollees through the payment of premiums - just like private health insurance is financed by individuals who pay premiums. I'm sure there will be some who are in financial situations that would require assistance - but there is nothing new about that - it exists today.

I think the overwhelming people will get something AND pay for what they get. You don't have to agree with me & that's fine. Just don't suggest that I think the way you do.

[fiver]

Right.

The State Run Media has no interest in Crickets.

They had moved on looking for quiche and sushi as the Left is accustomed to!

:smile:Wait a minute...didn't Obama order his followers to get in the face and argue with people who didn't support him as a candidate?

And weren't war protesters under Bush referred to as "rowdy" people?

And what were the angry people congregating at the homes of AIG execs? Not angry mobs. Oh no no no no no no, it was AOK to be upset and gather outside someone's private home and yell and scream because Obama said he was upset too!

[fiver]

If you wish to think that national healthcare will result in dire financial obligations on our children & grandchildren, that is your right. But don't project your opinions on to me.

-snipped-
Who do you think is going to pay the $1trillion price tag on this so called "reform"? Don't forget, Obama told us months ago that we are out of money. Where do you think the money for current $1.6trillion in deficit spending is coming from?

[MiamiNice1]

Who do you think is going to pay the $1trillion price tag on this so called "reform"? Don't forget, Obama told us months ago that we are out of money. Where do you think the money for current $1.6trillion in deficit spending is coming from?
I would LOVELOVELOVE to see the answer to this! :drool:

imo

[daniel green]

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.), at a town hall Tuesday, crowed that Democratic lawmakers returning to their home districts "almost got lynched," by angry town hall protesters. His remark got applause from the crowd. Of course, he added, the GOP doesn't "approve of lynchings" -- and made a choking gesture that prompted laughter from the audience.

Watchi:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/todd-akin-jokes-about-dem_n_252766.html

Unbelievable.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Not a prayers of a chance! 37 states are solidly Democratic. 7 are solidly Right Wing/GOP. :lol:

It doesn't get better than that. :lol:

moo
Impressive indeed. :hat:

[daniel green]

Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC) will not be hosting any town hall events this August -- instead, he's making himself available to constituents for one-on-one meetings about health care reform -- and at least part of the reason is this: His offices have received threatening phone calls, including at least one direct threat against his life.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/dem-congressmans-office-his-life-has-been-threatened-over-health-care-bill.php

[Lady_Jean_La]

Olive, in my youth, I was a yellow dog democrat. Lots of rallies for all kinds of things - that's something liberals are very good at. Organizing, coming up with slogans, mass marches, and at the top of those movements were paid managers who got the word out, organized things, etc. Conservatives up to this point don't do this for whatever reason. Some theorize that conservatives are at work and frankly don't have time to do this. ;D

Now that I'm older I'm more in the middle, leaning toward being a conservative even libertarian. I'm amazed, really, at how ANGRY the liberals are that conservatives this one time are taking a page from the liberal book - organize, come to rallies, and shout down the competition. Really, how transparent can a group of people be to get so angry when their own tactics are copied by their adversaries?

I'm thrilled to death that this is going on. Im really scared - really - of Obama's socialized medicine, and if those of us who care and who have the knowledge and experience in life to know that this will kill our excellent system of medicine as we know it today don't come out and shout down those who are quietly trying to shove it down our throats, we will have made a grave, lazy error.

Hooray for making your voice heard loud and clear, in large masses.

Bussed in? Paid protesters? I don't think so.

Well said!!!:thumbsup:

[Lady_Jean_La]

Turns out this whole thing was a hoax on the part of the left:


Think Progress, MSNBC 'Manufacture' a Story With Putative Smoking Gun 'Mob' Memo


http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356856

:w00t:

I'll be darned. Somedays I can't even trust Huffington Post.

[daniel green]

Do yourself a favor if you have a moment and you're online, and go to the Web site RecessRally.com. It's a very nice Web site. It's very slick. It's got a big "stop" sign right there in the middle, above the list of all the town hall rallies they expect you to go to and disrupt. The tag line up there, you can see, is: "We the people say no to socialized health care." We the people-that's how the Republican Party has been describing these town hall takeovers, too, putting out a statement today saying that Democrats should stop being so upset about them. Quote, "What Democrats call mob rule, the average American calls democracy. These kinds of despicable characterizations of middle-class Americans smacks of elitism." The Republican Party says the town hall takeovers, the bullying and the intimidation we've been seeing, these are just average middle-class Americans spontaneously expressing their feelings. Conveniently, the average middle-class Americans bringing you RecessRally.com are actually listed at the bottom of that Web site. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you can see there, national coalition of sponsors. You can see-there's like Michelle Malkin, she's one of the people on FOX News. There's Smart Girl Politics. That actually sounds very nice. RedState, a fairly prominent right-wing blog.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32315185/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/

The list of who is who on that site and behind the "protestors" is a must read, at the link.

[daniel green]

Right. :rolleyes: Think Progress just made up a memo from the ppl who are organizing this astroturf, what, at least a week ago?

[Circe]

Olive, in my youth, I was a yellow dog democrat. Lots of rallies for all kinds of things - that's something liberals are very good at. Organizing, coming up with slogans, mass marches, and at the top of those movements were paid managers who got the word out, organized things, etc. Conservatives up to this point don't do this for whatever reason. Some theorize that conservatives are at work and frankly don't have time to do this. ;D

Now that I'm older I'm more in the middle, leaning toward being a conservative even libertarian. I'm amazed, really, at how ANGRY the liberals are that conservatives this one time are taking a page from the liberal book - organize, come to rallies, and shout down the competition. Really, how transparent can a group of people be to get so angry when their own tactics are copied by their adversaries?

I'm thrilled to death that this is going on. Im really scared - really - of Obama's socialized medicine, and if those of us who care and who have the knowledge and experience in life to know that this will kill our excellent system of medicine as we know it today don't come out and shout down those who are quietly trying to shove it down our throats, we will have made a grave, lazy error.

Hooray for making your voice heard loud and clear, in large masses.

Bussed in? Paid protesters? I don't think so.

Funny........I was also around 30 years ago.......and I don't remember any rally, sit in or any kind of protest that was backed by corperate intrests. In fact, they would have been thrown out of the room.

And I'll keep right on saying this with every post on this subject. During the last eight years, liberal protesters were called traitors, un American, terrorist sympathizers and every effort was made to stifle dissent........but suddenly screaming, shouting and carrying on so that no one can be heard from either side is a GOOD thing.

And somehow, I don't think that the people that can't get insurance due to costs, pre-existing conditions or those that are denied care because of some bean counter that's never been any closer to med school than re-runs of ER, think that our system of health care is so excellent.

There's a big difference in making your voice heard........and shouting so loudly that no one can be heard. JMO, of course.

[Circe]

Of course liberal rallies wouldn't be backed by corporate interest, Circe. Corporations are on the side of conservatives.

I don't think these people yelling "Read The Bill" are doing so because they're being paid by corporations for the interests of corporations, do you? No. These are people who don't want change in health care, and some corporations believe the same way.

Do you actually believe the people out there passionately protesting are doing so for a fee, and don't have an opinion one way or another?

No, I think that some of them are actually there from their own interest. But yes, I do think that some are there for nothing more than to scream, yell and disrupt.........they aren't interested in change or anything but spreading hate and dissension..........and whether they know it or not, it's corporate interests that are behind it.

JMO, of course.

[ABC]

.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32315185/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/

The list of who is who on that site and behind the "protestors" is a must read, at the link.
Appreciate the link to Recessrally.com. Had no idea when a "townhall" meeting would be coming to my town. Thanks for the information, now I do. Will be rallying all my Blue Dog Democrat pals and going on August 22nd and hopefully making our voices heard. Not a mob, not bused in, not even angry but concerned citizens. :ohmy::ohmy: I support the Health Care Plan and supported Hillary's in the nineties but support the Constituation and the right of the people to assemble and voice their opinions more. Great to see the DNC expose itself and love Michael Steele rerouting the call from the RNC to the DNC. We moderates are trying to take back our party.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Some days???


:laugh:The days I read it. :hat:

[Circe]

Circe, these people who are out there, many of them ARE the corporations. Corporations are made up of business people, and many of them ARE that. That's why they are in synch. It's not some evil, devilish underhanded thing that the corporations and the protesters are in agreement. It's because they ARE.

When Lloyd Doggett gets up in front of his constituents and states that even if he knew his constituents were against this plan he'd still vote for it it's time to start yelling. The arrogance of that is overwhelming. Who does that man think he is? What does he think the purpose of a representative republic is? I am absolutely shocked that a career politican can fall so far from his actual mission, and not realize it.

What, you mean like the last eight years, when even when the public was overwhelmingly for something, the president would veto it anyway? Or the Republican controlled House and Senate would kill it before it even got that far?

As for Llyoyd.......the solution is easy. Vote him out when the time comes round. Just like we did the last couple of times.

[Lady_Jean_La]

No different from Organizing for America hauling out a "staged" performance of a cancer victim on Obama's recent HC trek. How deceitful was that? MO
It's all a big show! imo

[fiver]

Right. :rolleyes: Think Progress just made up a memo from the ppl who are organizing this astroturf, what, at least a week ago?
You mean the memo sent to 8-10 people in JUNE?

THAT memo?

WOW what an organization!!

[daniel green]

Appreciate the link to Recessrally.com. Had no idea when a "townhall" meeting would be coming to my town. Thanks for the information, now
snipped We moderates are trying to take back our party.

I hope you do, ABC. The GOP needs moderates badly.

Glad you could use the link for something! It is beyond frightening to see the professional PR folks who are running this astro-turf and scaring folks.