8/3 ~ 8/4 [8/3 custody and executor hearings] [Archive]

Xenam

08-03-2009, 11:15 AM

I couldnt open that link you responded to..Does it actually say that a non-medical person gave MJ a shot of Demerol?...Hummm..just who is the writer of this information?..Geesh...Frustrating when links dont cooperate..

LMS:laugh:

That is a direct quote from the article. Citizens Journalism / India ??

Try this and then on the right hand side under "Entertainment" click on the article "Jackson Doctor Slept..."

http://www.merinews.com/

Mairi II

08-03-2009, 11:18 AM

An aide giving Demerol to MJ too soon after diprivan (sp?) just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Diprivan is administered by IV... wouldn't the "aide" (never heard there was another person there that morning, except for security) have seen the drip? If it was dripping, MJ would've been "sleeping." If it wasn't dripping and MJ had woken up and asked for the Demerol, the Diprivan would've been out of his system (according the descriptions on how little time it stays in your system) so what would be the big deal unless it was a flat-out OD on Demerol and had nothing to do with Diprivan. It does makes sense, though, to the extent Conrad vehemently denied giving him anything that would've killed him. As usual, JMO.

Scampi

08-03-2009, 11:19 AM

Good morning everyone. I see this case is taking a very strange twist. No wonder they have delayed the tox release, it is going to take quite awhile to fully investigage this death.

I am troubled by the reports that apparently Katherine Jackson is going to contest the arrangements that Michael made as to whom would be the executors of his will.

Also, according to different attorneys, this action by KJ would indeed go against the no contest clause in Michael's will.

I think Joe Jackson is going to be very much a part of Katherine's life from now on.

VC2

08-03-2009, 12:29 PM

vagal

08-03-2009, 12:43 PM

cutiepatootie61

08-03-2009, 12:44 PM

I think CW accidentally locked the 8/3 thread she started by splitting off from the end of 8/2. Hope its ok to post this.

today will be the custody heariing and also i believe the judge will make a permanent decision on the executors of the estate which KJ is trying to challenge.

imo

TMZ has a live streaming feed outside the courthouse. I'm sure these pompous lawyers will have a comment or two when it's over.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/live-michael-jackson-estate-court-case/

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 12:44 PM

TMZ has a live stream at the courthouse. Says KJ and two of the sisters and one of the brothers have arrived.

vagal

08-03-2009, 12:47 PM

TMZ has a live stream at the courthouse. Says KJ and two of the sisters and one of the brothers have arrived.

Do you happen to know if anywhere is live streaming it from inside the court room??? If so where do I go?? Thanks

witchywoman

08-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Thanks for starting this thread, as im still following along with all of you..

im just silently sitting in the corner on my best behavior lol:wink:

cutiepatootie61

08-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Do you happen to know if anywhere is live streaming it from inside the court room??? If so where do I go?? Thanks

I believe the hearing will be closed to the public, it involves kids so I assume this is off limits to us. moo

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 12:53 PM

I am wondering which sisters are expected to be there. I see that Randy has arrived...

VC2

08-03-2009, 12:56 PM

Thanks for starting this thread, as im still following along with all of you..

im just silently sitting in the corner on my best behavior lol:wink:

:lol: well i think we all should be today given the information that will probably give us a lot to discuss in the case itself.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 01:00 PM

How are you seeing it?

I can't see a darn thing!

I don't have the live feed anymore, but it is just outside of the courthouse anyway. Maybe they will have it again after the hearing. :shrug:

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 01:03 PM

From TMZ

11:56 AM ET -- Katherine, Randy and La Toya were escorted upstairs to the court room. La Toya is wearing a black jacket, slacks, and a white blouse. Katherine is wearing a brown suit, looking calm ... and chewing gum.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 01:28 PM

UPDATES:

12:26 -- Debbie Rowe's lawyer, Eric George, just said he won't object to Katherine being appointed temporary guardian, but permanent guardianship could be delayed. It's curious given the supposed settlement between Debbie and Katherine.

12:24 -- The judge just said Klein has no legal standing to lodge an objection ... that Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe are the parents.

12:18 -- The judge wants to know what legal standing Klein has -- this could force the issue over whether he's the daddy.

12:17 -- Get this. Mark Vincent Kaplan (K-Fed's lawyer) just showed up on behalf of Dr. Arnold Klein. Kaplan says Klein has a long-standing commitment to Michael Jackson and has concerns about Joe Jackson being involved with the children. There are reports Klein is the father, but he hasn't confirmed or denied.

12:14 -- The judge is on the bench. He'll be dealing with the guardianship settlement between Katherine and Debbie Rowe first.

12:00 ET -- Rebbie Jackson, Michael's older sister, has just showed up. We're told, day to day, she'll be the one taking care of Michael's kids.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

CANDYKISSES

08-03-2009, 01:38 PM

--------------

I dont understand the need for a description of what each is wearing unless its a fashion show. jmo

It certainly does help when video and pics aren't the best, especially when they are coming and going IMO. Remembering what they are wearing is an easy way to identify when the pics are unclear. :smile:

vagal

08-03-2009, 01:39 PM

Per TMZ

12:37 -- The judge just named Katherine permanent guardian of all three kids

VC2

08-03-2009, 01:51 PM

It certainly does help when video and pics aren't the best, especially when they are coming and going IMO. Remembering what they are wearing is an easy way to identify when the pics are unclear. :smile:

True!

Vagal thanks for the info on the hearing.

I am dumbfounded at Klein being there to lodge an objection as "close to MJ" about the guardian ship.. wtf???? :mad: Either he says he might be the bio dad or he stays out of it, since when does a freaking doctor or even friend try and interfere like this as a 3rd party between a bio mom and an appointed guardian?

vagal

08-03-2009, 02:01 PM

More from TMZ

12:42 The judge has just granted 83.5% of what was requested for the children's allowance. Specific amounts were not discussed.

12:41 -- The lawyers are now discussing the allowance for Jackson's three kids.

12:40 -- Debbie Rowe will have visitation rights with her two kids and will continue getting spousal support based on the agreement she struck with Michael several years ago.

12:39 -- The judge granted Katherine a financial allowance for 6 months retro from the time Michael died. The amount of the allowance wasn't discussed in open court.

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 02:01 PM

Per TMZ

12:37 -- The judge just named Katherine permanent guardian of all three kids

I am really confused!

First it was reported temporary guardianship, or at least that is what DR's lawyer requested. Then it is being stated by TMZ, permanent guardianhip. So, this would mean DR will no future chance for guardianhip. :confused:

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:07 PM

I am really confused!

First it was reported temporary guardianship, or at least that is what DR's lawyer requested. Then it is being stated by TMZ, permanent guardianhip. So, this would mean DR will no future chance for guardianhip. :confused:

I believe there may have been a discussion between 12:26 and 12:37 and it has been determined that KJ will have permanent custody and DR will have scheduled visitation rights. Something minor probably had to be cleared up and it was probably out of court discusson since it involved the children. JMHO

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 02:11 PM

VC2

08-03-2009, 02:14 PM

I am really confused!

First it was reported temporary guardianship, or at least that is what DR's lawyer requested. Then it is being stated by TMZ, permanent guardianhip. So, this would mean DR will no future chance for guardianhip. :confused:

Right. DR's attorney suggested the Judge delay ruling on permanent guardianship, judge disagreed and gave permanent custody to Katherine. Best for the children, until permanent guardianship is established they cannot feel safe where they are. Since the two did come to an agreement there was no reason to delay making the guardianship permanent and in fact good reason to do it immediately. Those 3 kids don't need to keep wondering if they will be taken from one house to another where they hardly know the person, kids need safety especially after the trauma of the custodial parent dying.

I think the request had more to do with klein or something up his sleeve than anything. They had an agreement, then suddenly klein wanted standing..remember that the good doctor *snark* said the first thing he did when he heard MJ was dead was call DR and tell her to get a lawyer or something, it was on LKL when he was a guest.

certainly gives credence to a possibility of his being bio dad but then i look at the kids and just cannot see it lol. not at all..the two oldest look nothing like a combo of DR and Klein. Not that it matters, just trying to figure why he thinks he should have had any standing in it!

IMO

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:15 PM

1:03 -- The judge has called for a 30-minute break.

12:55 -- The judge decided on the lesser amount because of concerns about duplicate expenses for the monthly allowance approved for Katherine.

12:42 -- The judge has just granted 83.5% of what was requested for the children's allowance. Specific amounts were not discussed.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

CANDYKISSES

08-03-2009, 02:16 PM

I believe there may have been a discussion between 12:26 and 12:37 and it has been determined that KJ will have permanent custody and DR will have scheduled visitation rights. Something minor probably had to be cleared up and it was probably out of court discusson since it involved the children. JMHO

Yep, I'm thinking it might have had something to do with the continuation of payments to DR by the estate myself, but that's JMO. Without knowing for sure if the judge would grant the payments, I don't think DR would have just signed off on a custody arrangement if it wasn't in her best interest or that of the children for that matter. JMO again. :unsure:

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 02:19 PM

VC, also....just thinking here...But remembering DR visiting Klein's office just last week or abouts.

:sneaky:

CANDYKISSES

08-03-2009, 02:20 PM

True!

Vagal thanks for the info on the hearing.

I am dumbfounded at Klein being there to lodge an objection as "close to MJ" about the guardian ship.. wtf???? :mad: Either he says he might be the bio dad or he stays out of it, since when does a freaking doctor or even friend try and interfere like this as a 3rd party between a bio mom and an appointed guardian?

His fifteen minutes are over as far as I'm concerned VC. He really knows how to milk some things and if he helped to enable MJ, then whatever happens to him is well deserved IMOO. But I think all the conspiracies about the egg and the sperm will remain unknown unless something much bigger comes along.

I hope for those children to have all they need in love, counseling and bonding with what's left of a family for them. The entire tragedy is simply something that will shape their lives and they need many good thoughts and prayers IMO. :wub:

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 02:24 PM

His fifteen minutes are over as far as I'm concerned VC. He really knows how to milk some things and if he helped to enable MJ, then whatever happens to him is well deserved IMOO. But I think all the conspiracies about the egg and the sperm will remain unknown unless something much bigger comes along.

I hope for those children to have all they need in love, counseling and bonding with what's left of a family for them. The entire tragedy is simply something that will shape their lives and they need many good thoughts and prayers IMO. :wub:

Absolutely agree...hope their life is full of people who make them feel special and loved. :wub:

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 02:26 PM

--------------

I dont understand the need for a description of what each is wearing unless its a fashion show. jmo

:laugh: me either.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 02:26 PM

"12:18 -- The judge wants to know what legal standing Klein has -- this could force the issue over whether he's the daddy."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

I knew it. I knew from the beginning on that there's something about the gossip he's the biological father.

It was too weird when Klein offered to do an dna test (LKL interview) because if he donated anonymously the chance that he's the father by coincidence converges to zero. He IS the biological father imo.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:29 PM

"12:18 -- The judge wants to know what legal standing Klein has -- this could force the issue over whether he's the daddy."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

I knew it. I knew that there's something about the gossip he's the biological father from the beginning on.

The judge has already ruled that Klein has no legal standing. He is not in the picture at all. Don't need any more rumors.
He is not the father. JMO

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 02:37 PM

The judge has already ruled that Klein has no legal standing. He is not in the picture at all. Don't need any more rumors.
He is not the father. JMO

Thank goodness for that. That would sure add to the circus.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:38 PM

According to Ted Rowlands, CNN the 30 minute break was for the lawyers to discuss the issues about KJ being involved in decisions re: the estate and present what they have come up with after returning. Should be shortly.

~Soure CNN News / Ted Rowlands

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:40 PM

Thank goodness for that. That would sure add to the circus.

For sure. :)

I am so happy that KJ and DR came to an agreement. It made it much easier for the judge to make a decision and is better for the children that they are not in limbo. I am also glad she is getting visitation with the children. The children have a right to know she is their mother. JMO

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 02:43 PM

The judge has already ruled that Klein has no legal standing. He is not in the picture at all. Don't need any more rumors.
He is not the father. JMO

That is great news. Seems like this Judge is a no nonsense Judge and quickly rules and goes on with the next issue.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 02:43 PM

For sure. :)

I am so happy that KJ and DR came to an agreement. It made it much easier for the judge to make a decision and is better for the children that they are not in limbo. I am also glad she is getting visitation with the children. The children have a right to know she is their mother. JMO

I agree with you.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 02:45 PM

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:47 PM

Jamie Floyd is also getting ready to have an update.

imo

Which network is Jamie on ??

ETA: Nevermind -- got it. :)

VC2

08-03-2009, 02:53 PM

That is great news. Seems like this Judge is a no nonsense Judge and quickly rules and goes on with the next issue.

imo

ITA. he has a reputation for that, and being very strong on "best interests of the children". from everything i have heard, he is a straight shooter and might have been assigned the case for that reason given how high profile it is.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 02:56 PM

This is at the heart of it re: KJ wanting to be either a 3rd party with the Executors or to be kept more in the loop:

Katherine Jackson's attorneys filed a petition last week accusing the men who now control the estate of being "intent on keeping her in the dark" about deals they've made or are negotiating.

Londell McMillan, Jackson's lead attorney, raised questions about "a suspicious circle of relationships" involving John Branca, the singer's longtime personal attorney, and John McClain, a music industry executive and longtime friend.

Howard Weitzman, one of the attorneys for Branca and McClain, said they've provided "timely information to Mrs. Jackson's counsel regarding potential business opportunities for the estate."

"Any inference that we have not been forthcoming in providing information to Katherine Jackson's attorneys is not accurate," Weitzman said.

Beckloff gave Branca and McClain temporary control of the estate until Monday's hearing.

Katherine Jackson is asking the judge to order Branca, McClain and others to answer questions under oath about their business agreements to determine whether they are "fit and able" to administer the estate. The men also were served with a 19-page demand for documents.

Branca has refused to let Katherine Jackson see 's contracts with AEG -- the company that was organizing and promoting his planned concerts in London, England -- unless she agrees to keep them confidential. Branca's attorney argued in a court filing that he has no choice, since the contracts have a provision requiring confidentiality.

"There is one agreement being requested by Mrs. Jackson's attorneys where the other party to the contract has agreed to provide the document to Mrs. Jackson and her attorneys but requested that the terms be kept confidential and not be shared with third parties," Branca's lawyer said. "Mrs. Jackson's lawyers have refused that offer."

Branca's attorneys also argued that Jackson's demand for documents was too broad and burdensome.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/03/michael.jackson/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Xenam

08-03-2009, 03:03 PM

That is great news. Seems like this Judge is a no nonsense Judge and quickly rules and goes on with the next issue.

imo

I think DR may have spoken to Klein to ask him to speak up about keeping the children away from Joe so she wouldn't look like the bad guy considering she is getting visitation and the continued payments. Nothing more. JMO

VC2

08-03-2009, 03:06 PM

Scampi

08-03-2009, 03:06 PM

The judge has already ruled that Klein has no legal standing. He is not in the picture at all. Don't need any more rumors.
He is not the father. JMO

IMO, if Klein is the biological father and can prove that, he can gumm up the works but good.

VC2

08-03-2009, 03:12 PM

IMO, if Klein is the biological father and can prove that, he can gumm up the works but good.

He had the opportunity to file for standing today based on a paternity presumption or challenge, and chose not to do so. I think that means its a moot issue now. hope so anyway

Hi scamp! :)

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 03:16 PM

IMO, if Klein is the biological father and can prove that, he can gumm up the works but good.

I don't think he stands a snowball chance in he**.

Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe are the recorded parents on the two oldest children's birth certificate and were legally married at the time.

They are the legally recognized parents and Klein has no standing.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 03:23 PM

Just curious. At this point in time would it make any difference (legally) if he was the "sperm donor?"

I don't think it matters who the sperm donor was...MJ was the legal father. Plus, I think Kline has other things to worry about right now. IMO

VC2

08-03-2009, 03:25 PM

Just curious. At this point in time would it make any difference (legally) if he was the "sperm donor?"

under Cali's law probably never. As GB pointed out if there is no challenge to the parentage within two years of birth to a child born within a marriage then the legal parents remain the ones on the birth certificate. As it should be imo.

You see how seriously they take this when they order child support payments in a divorce from the non biological father when bio father has either stepped forward or the legal dad has been proven not to be the bio dad. Many a man is paying support for their children even though there is a known bio father, because they took on the responsibility during the 2 years and signed the certificate. IOW if you look like a duck and quack like a duck for 2 years, then you are a duck dad.

Also cases where there bio dad wanted custody and did not get it because they waited longer than the two years.

Makes sense, if a child has had a legal "daddy" for years and grown up with them, its not exactly healthy to take them from their parents home albeit no bio dad there and say you must live with this strangerwho donated sperm. at the same time the parents - be it mom or dad - are responsible for the children they raise and consider their own

jmo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 03:37 PM

Court is back in session.

VC2

08-03-2009, 03:41 PM

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 03:52 PM

argh...!!! :cursing: courtney hazelwood just said that Klein and his attorney are "still" meeting behind closed doors right now so it might not be over with as far as klein is concerned even though he was shot down by the judge.

IMO
eta 17 attorneys in the courtroom re estate

I wonder what the heck Kline is up to?? I would think with the police looking into his affairs, he would be more worried about that. No way IMO would he have any say in those children.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 03:56 PM

2:50 -- The judge has ruled that AEG has to provide a copy of their contract with Michael to Katherine Jackson.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:07 PM

2:50 -- The judge has ruled that AEG has to provide a copy of their contract with Michael to Katherine Jackson.

I wonder if she was made to sign the confidentiality clause?

ETA: Probably not, because if Kathrine has the contract all of the Jackson's will see it.

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 04:09 PM

I wonder what the heck Kline is up to?? I would think with the police looking into his affairs, he would be more worried about that. No way IMO would he have any say in those children.

Hmmm, seems very strange. He sure does seem to think he has a claim for some reason. I hope we get to hear what his reason is. :smile:

Xenam

08-03-2009, 04:13 PM

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:19 PM

3:00 -- The judge just admitted Jackson's 2002 will into probate. The will names John Branca and John McClain as co-executors. We know Katherine has a beef with that. The question -- will she challenge the co-executors or possibly ask that she be named as a third executor. Court is in recess for an hour-and-a half. Stay tuned.

Were are you getting your information? Is there a live feed? Are the executors now permanent?

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:25 PM

Were are you getting your information? Is there a live feed? Are the executors now permanent?

in my opinion

TMZ, but no live feed. They are just updating.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:30 PM

TMZ, but no live feed. They are just updating.

Thanks so much. Do you know if the executors are now permanent?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:31 PM

Can you imagine the bs Katherine is having to deal with at home? It's extremely clear why MJ locked himself away from his Family.

Very dysfunctional family.

in my opinion

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:32 PM

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032009/news/worldnews/aide_killed_jacko_with_demerol_as_doctor_182787.ht m

"Michael Jackson Killed By Doctor's Aide with Demerol: Reports"

Actually I would tend not to believe this:

"At the same time, an assistant -- not knowing that Murray had given the 50-year-old Jacko the drug -- shot the King of Pop with Demerol, The Sun of London reported today."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032009/news/worldnews/aide_killed_jacko_with_demerol_as_doctor_182787.ht m

I've seen some posters discussed the topic "propofol AND demerol" some days ago but didn't follow it precisely.

Is it likely he got both -- demerol and propofol?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:32 PM

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:35 PM

3:00 -- The judge just admitted Jackson's 2002 will into probate. The will names John Branca and John McClain as co-executors. We know Katherine has a beef with that. The question -- will she challenge the co-executors or possibly ask that she be named as a third executor. Court is in recess for an hour-and-a half. Stay tuned.

Thank you. Well if the Judge has admitted the Will he thinks it is totally valid and that means the co-executors will become permanent.

He will give KJ rights to see the contracts that MJ had and probably a workup on what the executors plan to do in order to increase the estate.

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 04:37 PM

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032009/news/worldnews/aide_killed_jacko_with_demerol_as_doctor_182787.ht m

"Michael Jackson Killed By Doctor's Aide with Demerol: Reports"

How does an aide give a demerol shot without consulting with his Doctor first? If this is true -- then this is murder and no accident IMO. :ohmy:

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:37 PM

Thanks so much. Do you know if the executors are now permanent?

Don't know, but they are in the will, so I am guessing yes.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Thanks so much. Do you know if the executors are now permanent?

Looks like the Judge is moving the case right along. Imo yes they will be permanent but he will give KJ the rights to certain information but she will not be the one in charge of how money is made or paid in and out of the estate.

imo

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:39 PM

argh...!!! :cursing: courtney hazelwood just said that Klein and his attorney are "still" meeting behind closed doors right now so it might not be over with as far as klein is concerned even though he was shot down by the judge.

IMO
eta 17 attorneys in the courtroom re estate

I will keep up my initial personal belief that he's the biological father (without any legal rights). Imo he wants a piece of the big cake -- anyhow.

I've always thought there's something "special" about the relationship and between Klein and Michael Jackson some sort of dependence imo.

I could imagine he will address the media again if he's shot down in the court room.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:40 PM

How does an aide give a demerol shot without consulting with his Doctor first? If this is true -- then this is murder and no accident IMO. :ohmy:

If it originated for The Sun I will wait and see if the Associated Press reports before I even consider believing this tale.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:40 PM

Actually I would tend not to believe this:

"At the same time, an assistant -- not knowing that Murray had given the 50-year-old Jacko the drug -- shot the King of Pop with Demerol, The Sun of London reported today."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032009/news/worldnews/aide_killed_jacko_with_demerol_as_doctor_182787.ht m

I've seen some posters discussed the topic "propofol AND demerol" some days ago but didn't follow it precisely.

Is it likely he got both -- demerol and propofol?

If the Dr. gave MJ the propofol, and then stopped it and went to bed, MJ would have awakened almost right away as soon as the drip stopped. So would MJ have asked someone else to give him a shot of Demerol?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:41 PM

Thank you. Well if the Judge has admitted the Will he thinks it is totally valid and that means the co-executors will become permanent.

He will give KJ rights to see the contracts that MJ had and probably a workup on what the executors plan to do in order to increase the estate.

imo

The executors would have let her see the AEG contract before, but she wouldn't sign a confidentiality agreement. She probably has signed that now.

in my opinion

Xenam

08-03-2009, 04:41 PM

Looks like the Judge is moving the case right along. Imo yes they will be permanent but he will give KJ the rights to certain information but she will not be the one in charge of how money is made or paid in and out of the estate.

imo

Unless they choose now to challenge the executors. Don't think this is a done deal yet until her lawyer agrees now that the will has been entered into probate. They took another break.

"The question -- will she challenge the co-executors or possibly ask that she be named as a third executor. Court is in recess for an hour-and-a half. Stay tuned."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/michael-jackson-estate-hearing-guardianship-debbie-rowe/

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:42 PM

--------------

accidental murder IMO

Doesnn't this mean homicide? (= not murder)

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:43 PM

The executors would have let her see the AEG contract before, but she wouldn't sign a confidentiality agreement. She probably has signed that now.

in my opinion

What would be the reason why she doesn't want to sign a confidentiality agreement?

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:44 PM

If the Dr. gave MJ the propofol, and then stopped it and went to bed, MJ would have awakened almost right away as soon as the drip stopped. So would MJ have asked someone else to give him a shot of Demerol?

The NY Post article says an employee allegedly would have done so.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:44 PM

Don't know, but they are in the will, so I am guessing yes.

Yes, since the Judge is recognizing this is THE Will he will adhere to the wishes and intents of MJ.

The only way an administrator could be tossed is after they took over they commit fraud or took money for themselves that wasn't theirs to take.

I think these two men are very competent.

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 04:45 PM

I am quite surprised TMZ didn't get that scoop about the aide injecting MJ with demerol. :confused:

They did report it on 6/27 -- before knowledge of the diprivan - so maybe ?

Our sources have told us Jackson was injected with Demerol at 11:30 AM the day he died. Shortly thereafter Jackson went into cardiac arrest.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/27/michael-jackson-demerol-died-health-tonic/

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:46 PM

Just curious. At this point in time would it make any difference (legally) if he was the "sperm donor?"

Legally no... but I could imagine Klein would be out on "voluntary" payments / agreements (imo).

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:47 PM

Doesnn't this mean homicide? (= not murder)

it sounds like accidental overdose.

in my opinion

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:49 PM

What would be the reason why she doesn't want to sign a confidentiality agreement?

I don't know. To blab it to the world?

in my opinion

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:51 PM

The NY Post article says an employee allegedly would have done so.

Isn't the New York Post owned by Rupert Murdoch the same one that owns Fox News and The Sun in the UK?

imo

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:52 PM

I am quite surprised TMZ didn't get that scoop about the aide injecting MJ with demerol. :confused:

One of the very first TMZ reports was that he got a demerol shot.

Jackson Family -- Demerol Shot Caused Death

"A close member of Michael Jackson's family has told us Jackson received a daily injection of a synthetic narcotic similar to morphine -- Demerol -- and yesterday he received a shot at 11:30 AM."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/jackson-family-demerol-shot-caused-death/

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 04:54 PM

One of the very first TMZ reports was that he got a demerol shot.

Jackson Family -- Demerol Shot Caused Death

"A close member of Michael Jackson's family has told us Jackson received a daily injection of a synthetic narcotic similar to morphine -- Demerol -- and yesterday he received a shot at 11:30 AM."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/jackson-family-demerol-shot-caused-death/

Well since none of the Jackson family were even there I will take that as one of Joe's goofball statements.

imo

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:54 PM

Isn't the New York Post owned by Rupert Murdoch the same one that owns Fox News and The Sun in the UK?

imo

Could be, GB. I don't believe much in the news of Rupert Murdoch papers. Therefore I asked in my initial post on the topic what was discussed before here at the board about propofol AND demerol. There was a discussion some days ago but I didn't read the details.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:55 PM

Well since none of the Jackson family were even there I will take that as one of Joe's goofball statements.

imo

I could imagine the "unnamed source" confused the 2 different drugs (= thought it was demerol but it was propofol).

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:55 PM

The executors would have let her see the AEG contract before, but she wouldn't sign a confidentiality agreement. She probably has signed that now.

in my opinion

But will all of the Jackson's sign it?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 04:56 PM

One of the very first TMZ reports was that he got a demerol shot.

Jackson Family -- Demerol Shot Caused Death

"A close member of Michael Jackson's family has told us Jackson received a daily injection of a synthetic narcotic similar to morphine -- Demerol -- and yesterday he received a shot at 11:30 AM."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/jackson-family-demerol-shot-caused-death/

The aide should have checked with the doctor before administering the Demoral? Maybe there was just some sort of unusual reaction this time. Maybe his heart just couldn't take it anymore.

in my opinion

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 04:57 PM

Doesnn't this mean homicide? (= not murder)

According to my Thesaurus, they are one in the same. Murder = Homicide and Homicide = Murder.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 04:58 PM

That's what "The Sun" said. Read link above.

I read it. So, did Dr. Murray leave MJ with the drip going, and someone came upon a sleeping MJ hooked up to IV's and gave him the demerol, or was MJ awake and asked for it?

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 04:59 PM

Legally no... but I could imagine Klein would be out on "voluntary" payments / agreements (imo).

Sorry..but I dont care much for Klein..and would not be at all surprised his whole reasons have to do with money..He is one shady character..and I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him..and that isnt far!!

I wonder if he has some "inside info"..that the Jacksons dont want to be known to the public?..I wouldnt be shocked....This whole case is full of "IFFY" sorts...course most are involved as per MJ's directives....Hummm

LMS

BTW.. that shot of Demerol just doesnt ring true to me..Dont know why?..Just too convenient for Dr. M..hummmming

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 04:59 PM

According to my Thesaurus, they are one in the same. Murder = Homicide and Homicide = Murder.

Could be that it's different in my own country where homicide means someone was killed accidentally and murder that someone was killed intentionally. I've read that there's also murder 2 in the US if someone dies in consequence of reckless actions.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:00 PM

But will all of the Jackson's sign it?

My guess is anything the executors show Katherine is to be confidential. She will probably sign the confidential agreement covering everything.
She would be ultimately responsible for the family seeing it and blabbing it. I would think only her lawyer and herself would be seeing the papers.

in my opinion

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:02 PM

I read it. So, did Dr. Murray leave MJ with the drip going, and someone came upon a sleeping MJ hooked up to IV's and gave him the demerol, or was MJ awake and asked for it?

What bothers me is that obviously MJ cannot confirm he was awake? Just a thought .... What time did Dr. Murray disconnect MJ from the diprivan and fall asleep? I thought it was reported the IV was still hooked up when Dr. Murray found him? This doesn't sound right :confused:

Jackson is feared to have woken when the effects wore off and demanded pain relief.

The Demerol was duly administered by the compliant aide - with devastating effects.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2568359/Aide-killed-Jacko-with-Demerol-hit-as-doctor-Conrad-Murray-slept.html

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Sorry..but I dont care much for Klein..and would not be at all surprised his whole reasons have to do with money..He is one shady character..and I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him..and that isnt far!!

I wonder if he has some "inside info"..that the Jacksons dont want to be known to the public?..I wouldnt be shocked....This whole case is full of "IFFY" sorts...course most are involved as per MJ's directives....Hummm

LMS

BTW.. that shot of Demerol just doesnt ring true to me..Dont know why?..Just too convenient for Dr. M..hummmming

Lynda, I think there is ANYTHING -- whatever it is.

Inside info about the treatments (plastic surgery, skin)...
or about any arrangements with DR....
or that he's the bio dad...
or about drug addiction... --

... anything which the public should not know.

Imo he appears as one of the shadiest players in the Jackson saga and therefore I DO care.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:04 PM

My guess is anything the executors show Katherine is to be confidential. She will probably sign the confidential agreement covering everything.
She would be ultimately responsible for the family seeing it and blabbing it. I would think only her lawyer and herself would be seeing the papers.

in my opinion I hope so, if they want it to be confidential. Don't let Joe see it.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:04 PM

It's unclear to me whether "aide" is an aide to Dr Murray or one of MJ's aides? As in one of his staff members.

Dr Murray was through with administering the diprivan and removed the IV ect. going to bed. The aide comes along and administers the Demoral as is usually done every day.

Mr Jackson's body just couldn't take it anymore and gave out.

Just a guess.

in my opinion

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:06 PM

I hope so, if they want it to be confidential. Don't let Joe see it.

Oh for sure, and if the lawyer and Katherine are dumb enough to show Joe anything, the leak would be obvious. It would still come back to Katherine if that happens.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:06 PM

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 05:07 PM

Could be that it's different in my own country where homicide means someone was killed accidentally and murder that someone was killed intentionally. I've read that there's also murder 2 in the US if someone dies in consequence of reckless actions.

Bold by me: I have never in my life heard in any English speaking country that homicide means accidentally killing someone. Accidentally killing someone is usually considered some degree of manslaughter.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:07 PM

What bothers me is that obviously MJ cannot confirm he was awake? Just a thought .........

Jackson is feared to have woken when the effects wore off and demanded pain relief.

The Demerol was duly administered by the compliant aide - with devastating effects.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2568359/Aide-killed-Jacko-with-Demerol-hit-as-doctor-Conrad-Murray-slept.html

Without re-reading what was discussed here at the board some days ago I just remember:

It was discussed the possibility if CM himself could have given MJ a demerol shot or other drugs at a time he was dead already. (Other staffers were not discussed.)

(I think it wouldn't be possible or at least provable in the autopsy... but I have no medical knowledge).

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:08 PM

I knew I remembered reading that he still had the IV in his arm:

Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:09 PM

Bold by me: I have never in my life heard in any English speaking country that homicide means accidentally killing someone. Accidentally killing someone is usually considered some degree of manslaughter.

My native language isn't English I'm not from an English speaking country. I just can rely on my dictionary; homicide is translated by the same word as manslaughter. -- So I conclude there's manslaughter (accidental) and murder (intentional).

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:09 PM

And who is this mysterious aide?

I don't know because according to the 911 call the only other person that was there was Dr. Murray :confused:

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 05:10 PM

What bothers me is that obviously MJ cannot confirm he was awake? Just a thought .... What time did Dr. Murray disconnect MJ from the diprivan and fall asleep? I thought it was reported the IV was still hooked up when Dr. Murray found him? This doesn't sound right :confused:

Jackson is feared to have woken when the effects wore off and demanded pain relief.

The Demerol was duly administered by the compliant aide - with devastating effects.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2568359/Aide-killed-Jacko-with-Demerol-hit-as-doctor-Conrad-Murray-slept.html

my bolding and underline...IF this was true..then the site the shot was given would still have un-absorbed Demerol at the site...It would not have had time to absorb, metabolize and be found elsewhere throughout the body..Nope..I just dont buy it..When there is a Doctor onsite..no one..whether a nurse or assistant..NO one does anything without the Doctor knowing..or instructing...NOPE!!

This whole story is being circulated to divert attention from Dr. M..

LMS

Kathlb

08-03-2009, 05:10 PM

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 05:10 PM

And who is this mysterious aide?

Great question. Kia Chase didn't mention anyone in the house but Dr. Murray, herself and the children as far as I know. I can't imagine it being a bodyguard.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:11 PM

What bothers me is that obviously MJ cannot confirm he was awake? Just a thought .... What time did Dr. Murray disconnect MJ from the diprivan and fall asleep? I thought it was reported the IV was still hooked up when Dr. Murray found him? This doesn't sound right :confused:

Jackson is feared to have woken when the effects wore off and demanded pain relief.

The Demerol was duly administered by the compliant aide - with devastating effects.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2568359/Aide-killed-Jacko-with-Demerol-hit-as-doctor-Conrad-Murray-slept.html

I thought it was reported that the IV was still hooked up too. And if Dr. Murray unhooked it then MJ would have woken up right away. Wouldn't he have asked Dr. M then for the pain shot?

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:11 PM

Dr Murray was through with administering the diprivan and removed the IV ect. going to bed. The aide comes along and administers the Demoral as is usually done every day.

Mr Jackson's body just couldn't take it anymore and gave out.

Just a guess.

in my opinion

And that is why Dr. M changed the morning habits each day he was there, not appearing for another 2-3 hours, and an empty drip was there?

don't buy it. I suspect that story came from dr. M himself because it would get him out of trouble in his mind.

Kai's statements about the daily routine can be backed by all the staff in the house, not just her. Makes no sense. Especially for him to be on the bed still in the doctors bedroom. so where did Murray supposedly go to sleep-which he had not done any other time before?

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:12 PM

my bolding and underline...IF this was true..then the site the shot was given would still have un-absorbed Demerol at the site...It would not have had time to absorb, metabolize and be found elsewhere throughout the body..Nope..I just dont buy it..When there is a Doctor onsite..no one..whether a nurse or assistant..NO one does anything without the Doctor knowing..or instructing...NOPE!!

This whole story is being circulated to divert attention from Dr. M..

LMS

I am with you Lynda and the 911 call made said no one else was there except Dr. Murray. It was also reported by Kai Chase that staff were not allowed upstairs.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:13 PM

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:13 PM

Isn't the New York Post owned by Rupert Murdoch the same one that owns Fox News and The Sun in the UK?

imo

You did not ask me - but to my knowledge yes. I'll go look ...... BRB

ETA:

"It is published by News Group Newspapers of News International, itself a subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_(newspaper)

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 05:14 PM

My native language isn't English I'm not from an English speaking country. I just can rely on my dictionary; homicide is translated by the same word as manslaughter. -- So I conclude there's manslaughter (accidental) and murder (intentional).

Not in the USA my friend, Not in the USA.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:14 PM

<snipped>
Especially for him to be on the bed still in the doctors bedroom. so where did Murray supposedly go to sleep-which he had not done any other time before?

imo

Yes, that would make no sense.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:16 PM

I don't know because according to the 911 call the only other person that was there was Dr. Murray :confused:

I don't think the 911 call means no one else was there in the room or house. I also don't remember it being said the ONLY other person that was there was the doctor.

in my opinion

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 05:17 PM

Ha, I agree. Aide slips in gives shot, slips out. I am not buying it.

Me either and oh my, the other dude did it conspiracy begins. More fodder for the MSM to regurgitate over and over and over. :rolleyes:

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:18 PM

Yes, that would make no sense.

There are probably other bedrooms there.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:21 PM

I don't think the 911 call means no one else was there in the room or house. I also don't remember it being said the ONLY other person that was there was the doctor.

in my opinion

I remember according to the Dr.'s attorney, that something about the phone not working and him not knowing the address. He had to stop CPR and ran down to find the cook. That there was no one around. That doesn't mean that there weren't others around during the night though.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:22 PM

Me either and oh my, the other dude did it conspiracy begins. More fodder for the MSM to regurgitate over and over and over. :rolleyes:

Yes, and remember the attny. for Dr. Murray specifically said that Dr. M didn't give Oxycodone or Demerol to MJ. I thought that was a strange statement at the time. Why so specific?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:23 PM

And that is why Dr. M changed the morning habits each day he was there, not appearing for another 2-3 hours, and an empty drip was there?

don't buy it. I suspect that story came from dr. M himself because it would get him out of trouble in his mind.

Kai's statements about the daily routine can be backed by all the staff in the house, not just her. Makes no sense. Especially for him to be on the bed still in the doctors bedroom. so where did Murray supposedly go to sleep-which he had not done any other time before?

imo

Ahhh in another bedroom perhaps? Kind of hard to make up a person.
It would be checked out by police if an aide existed or not.

in my opinion

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:25 PM

Yes, and remember the attny. for Dr. Murray specifically said that Dr. M didn't give Oxycodone or Demerol to MJ. I thought that was a strange statement at the time. Why so specific?

Exactly. I thought it very odd to be that specific too.

in my opinion

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 05:25 PM

Yes, and remember the attny. for Dr. Murray specifically said that Dr. M didn't give Oxycodone or Demerol to MJ. I thought that was a strange statement at the time. Why so specific?

Most likely Dr. M. knows what is going to come out in the tox report and is in CYA mode. Ya Think?

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 05:25 PM

There are probably other bedrooms there.

in my opinion

Sorry retirecop..IF I was given the responsibility of someones life giving such treatment as Diprivan..and being paid $208.00 per hour..I would be sleeping at bedside, with my hand on my patient's chest....not going to another room...Heavens..I did that many times with my own kids who were sick, fevers and on medications....slept with my hand ON THEM...alerting to any changes of respirations, activities...Nope..Dont buy this mysterious Demerol Injection..Nope..nope..LOL

LMS

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:27 PM

I remember according to the Dr.'s attorney, that something about the phone not working and him not knowing the address. He had to stop CPR and ran down to find the cook. That there was no one around. That doesn't mean that there weren't others around during the night though.

Exactly, the aide probably got off duty before Mr Jackson was discovered.
Her last duty could have been the shot.

in my opinion

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:29 PM

There are probably other bedrooms there.

in my opinion

According to Kai Chase the staff is not allowed upstairs and if you recall Dr. Murray had to go find someone to make the 911 call because he did not know the address.

The 911 Call

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8121884.stm

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:29 PM

There are probably other bedrooms there.

in my opinion

That is true, the house has 8 bedrooms. I wonder why MJ had to be in Dr. M. room?

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:30 PM

Exactly, the aide probably got off duty before Mr Jackson was discovered.
Her last duty could have been the shot.

in my opinion

That makes no sense.

MJ was at rehearsal until around 12:30 am. Kai left in the late afternoon.

Or is that the "her" you are referring to?

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:30 PM

I remember according to the Dr.'s attorney, that something about the phone not working and him not knowing the address. He had to stop CPR and ran down to find the cook. That there was no one around. That doesn't mean that there weren't others around during the night though.

TMZ according to the link I provided said the demerol shot was administered at 11:30AM and if allegedly given after the diprivan it would have been in the morning since it was used for him to sleep. Also Kai Chase said NO staff was allowed upstairs. JMO

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:31 PM

Sorry retirecop..IF I was given the responsibility of someones life giving such treatment as Diprivan..and being paid $208.00 per hour..I would be sleeping at bedside, with my hand on my patient's chest....not going to another room...Heavens..I did that many times with my own kids who were sick, fevers and on medications....slept with my hand ON THEM...alerting to any changes of respirations, activities...Nope..Dont buy this mysterious Demerol Injection..Nope..nope..LOL

LMS

Imo NOT sleeping next to bed... but staying awake. CM was like a doctor on nightshift. Anesthesiologists on nightshift can't sleep during a patient gets surgery, either.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:31 PM

Most likely Dr. M. knows what is going to come out in the tox report and is in CYA mode. Ya Think?

CYA mode for what?

in my opinion

Doselady

08-03-2009, 05:32 PM

my bolding and underline...IF this was true..then the site the shot was given would still have un-absorbed Demerol at the site...It would not have had time to absorb, metabolize and be found elsewhere throughout the body..Nope..I just dont buy it..When there is a Doctor onsite..no one..whether a nurse or assistant..NO one does anything without the Doctor knowing..or instructing...NOPE!!

This whole story is being circulated to divert attention from Dr. M..

LMS
In your statement you are assuming that this was a normal situation. This situation was far from normal. People running around with syringes of demoral at the patient's command. Drs sleeping in the room while a patient has had or is getting propofal by IV. NOT NORMAL. Where is the patient chart or log?????

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:32 PM

Imo NOT sleeping next to bed... but staying awake. CM was like a doctor on nightshift. Anesthesiologists on nightshift can't sleep during a patient gets surgery, either.

Hello, the administration of Diprivan had ended.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:32 PM

Exactly, the aide probably got off duty before Mr Jackson was discovered.
Her last duty could have been the shot.

in my opinion

I sure would have thought though that IF there was another person with MJ during the night, it would have come out by now. If Dr. M is the one leaking this new story, he leaked it a little too late, IMO. His reputation is pretty well in tatters now. I would have thought that would have been the first thing out of his mouth.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:32 PM

That is true, the house has 8 bedrooms. I wonder why MJ had to be in Dr. M. room?

Imo, because he wanted to keep this private from the other staff and his children.

The kids probably knew that when their daddy was in Dr. Murray's bedroom they weren't to go in.

mo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:34 PM

That is true, the house has 8 bedrooms. I wonder why MJ had to be in Dr. M. room?

Maybe because of the children?

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 05:34 PM

Exactly, the aide probably got off duty before Mr Jackson was discovered.
Her last duty could have been the shot.

in my opinion
You guys are forgetting that the EMT still found MJ;s IV inplace..IF he had been finished with his Diprivan Sleep Therapy..then why continue IV..not to mention give injections for pain???..This whole scenerio just does sit right with me....No!!..

BTW..What time did the surveilance clock out?..and what timeline is missing..we know 911 was called what noonish??..or late morning??? What shift would that worker have ??...My..oh my..some are being rather gullible with this report....Have we heard a confirmation from Coroner yet?..

LMS

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:34 PM

TMZ according to the link I provided said the demerol shot was administered at 11:30AM and if allegedly given after the diprivan it would have been in the morning since it was used for him to sleep. Also Kai Chase said NO staff was allowed upstairs. JMO

Oh yeah, that is right. And the call an hour later, Dr. Murray couldn't find anyone to help.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:34 PM

That makes no sense.

MJ was at rehearsal until around 12:30 am. Kai left in the late afternoon.

Or is that the "her" you are referring to?

imo

No, I'm referring to the aide. Follow along.

in my opinion

Xenam

08-03-2009, 05:35 PM

No, I'm referring to the aide. Follow along.

in my opinion

What other "her" was there?

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:36 PM

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:36 PM

No, I'm referring to the aide. Follow along.

in my opinion

What aide?

imo

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:36 PM

Yes, and remember the attny. for Dr. Murray specifically said that Dr. M didn't give Oxycodone or Demerol to MJ. I thought that was a strange statement at the time. Why so specific?

because he did administer diprivan but the media was going gaga about demerol or oxycodone as the causes of death. Remember no one had heard of diprivan at the time of the original statement or it had just broken.

Most stories were dem or oxy. Atty could say that and tell the truth. Doesn't mean that anyone else gave demerol

IMO

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:37 PM

You guys are forgetting that the EMT still found MJ;s IV inplace..IF he had been finished with his Diprivan Sleep Therapy..then why continue IV..not to mention give injections for pain???..This whole scenerio just does sit right with me....No!!..

BTW..What time did the surveilance clock out?..and what timeline is missing..we know 911 was called what noonish??..or late morning??? What shift would that worker have ??...My..oh my..some are being rather gullible with this report....Have we heard a confirmation from Coroner yet?..

LMS

When was it said EMT found an IV in place?

in my opinion

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:38 PM

What aide?

imo

It helps to read the thread and keep up.

in my opinion

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:40 PM

because he did administer diprivan but the media was going gaga about demerol or oxycodone as the causes of death. Remember no one had heard of diprivan at the time of the original statement or it had just broken.

Most stories were dem or oxy. Atty could say that and tell the truth. Doesn't mean that anyone else gave demerol

IMO

Not true. The media was not going gaga over anything at that time except Mr Jackson died. The lawyer came out with that out of the blue.
I remember wondering why at the time.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:40 PM

What aide?

imo

The mystery aide. Male or female or imaginary. :shrug:

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 05:41 PM

In your statement you are assuming that this was a normal situation. This situation was far from normal. People running around with syringes of demoral at the patient's command. Drs sleeping in the room while a patient has had or is getting propofal by IV. NOT NORMAL. Where is the patient chart or log?????

IM not assuming anything..as MJ's whole medical hx is not normal..dont know of many who go to Dr. office for quick fixes..3 times a week..and dont know of any patients who get Diprivan therapy in their home..and dont know any patients who have a Dr. at bedside being paid 208 per hour either...as to log or chart..Do you actually believe Dr. M. kept any sort of log?..Something that could be used against him..as he knew full well what he was doing was not "Acceptable" medical practice...???

However..what I do know..is lay people in general do not interfer with a Dr. who has been put incharge of a patient..and in MJ;s case..their boss??..Even EMT followed his orders at the scene..and they already realized MJ was DEAD..and likely had been for some time..yet they even deferred to his directives

LMS

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:41 PM

------------------------

And the thoughts of their daddy being locked in a doctor's room.....i wonder what these poor kids thought. How could MJ be so cruel to his kids. jmo

HUH? ok when as an adult you need physical therapy or any other sort of therapy do you normally have the kids in the room? Be it a massage or sleeping or oxygen therapy as he called it to the kids?

How is this cruel??? I can't imagine parents who have kids in the room when they receive any sort of therapy except the most superficial like a manicure - ok not a therapy but still. My parents grandkids aren't allowed in my dads room when the nurse practitioner is there to work on his leg and hip when they spend the summer. Some things should not be open season. He told them eh was getting oxygen therapy to keep him strong for the rehearsals and concerts. What in the world is cruel about that?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:42 PM

Hey.. if you don't know the answer, just don't post. Stop being so rude to everyone.. TIA

It's all on the thread. I simply can't retype all of that. How am I rude to everyone? Stop baiting.

in my opinion

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:42 PM

------------------------

And the thoughts of their daddy being locked in a doctor's room.....i wonder what these poor kids thought. How could MJ be so cruel to his kids. jmo

How is that cruel. Kids sit in a waiting rooms all the time while their parents are treated by a doctor. I imagine in that huge house they were busy playing or doing their studies like they did everyday.

They knew he was going on a huge tour and a physician was living in their home that would be treating their father. I highly doubt they thought they all had to go pile in the bed when the doctor was in with him.:rolleyes:

imo

Scampi

08-03-2009, 05:42 PM

I don't think he stands a snowball chance in he**.

Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe are the recorded parents on the two oldest children's birth certificate and were legally married at the time.

They are the legally recognized parents and Klein has no standing.

imo

That's how it stands now Ocean, but as I said if Klein can prove he is the biological father that will change things imo.

Who knows what people will do when money in the billions is involved. There may be negotiations ongoing behind the scenes that we may never know about.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:44 PM

Didn't anybody watch Geraldo last night? It was the opinion of Mr. Jackson that Dr. Murray is the fall guy for AEG, and that AEG wanted MJ dead for the insurance od policy, and that someone wanted to make it look like mj accidentally od'd himself.

I heard that but I do consider the source and I am not one for conspiracy theories.

in my opinion

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:45 PM

When was it said EMT found an IV in place?

in my opinion

LKL had one of the reporters on talking about it

IMO

Re demerol at the beginning, it was certainly the big story, TMZ announced "he was given a shot of demerol shortly before death" somewehre in the first 2 hours iirc. Every station picked up on it and reported on it.

IMO

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:46 PM

You guys are forgetting that the EMT still found MJ;s IV inplace..IF he had been finished with his Diprivan Sleep Therapy..then why continue IV..not to mention give injections for pain???..This whole scenario just does sit right with me....No!!..

BTW..What time did the surveillance clock out?..and what timeline is missing..we know 911 was called what noonish??..or late morning??? What shift would that worker have ??...My..oh my..some are being rather gullible with this report....Have we heard a confirmation from Coroner yet?..

LMS

OK, Lynda. You are right of course.

See how quickly the news (wink wink) from THE SUN becomes the gospel?:lol:

imo

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 05:46 PM

When was it said EMT found an IV in place?

in my opinion

hummmmm..maybe when they arrived at the scene..?? R U just kidding with me???

LMS:ohmy:

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:47 PM

-------------

Maybe MJ did it himself. No one was there so no one knows. imo

True,Could be. But, then the story for what it is worth is incorrect. Which I think just might be the case anyway.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 05:48 PM

That's how it stands now Ocean, but as I said if Klein can prove he is the biological father that will change things imo.

Who knows what people will do when money in the billions is involved. There may be negotiations ongoing behind the scenes that we may never know about.

I totally agree.

You know, if he's the bio dad that's not the only secret. Klein also knows about Mike's plastic surgery. I could imagine his confidentiality has its price imo. He was quite "open" with information which actually has to be kept confidential.

Article on the topic confidentiality:
Michael Jackson doctor went too far

The dermatologist who exposed the singer's medical history on "Larry King Live" committed a fundamental violation

http://www.salon.com/env/vital_signs/2009/07/13/dr_arnold_klein/

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 05:49 PM

That's how it stands now Ocean, but as I said if Klein can prove he is the biological father that will change things imo.

Who knows what people will do when money in the billions is involved. There may be negotiations ongoing behind the scenes that we may never know about.

I do understand your concern but I have read that Klein is already a millionaire.

I don't think it will make a difference even if he proves he is the father.

To be recognized as the father of a child it must be done within 2 years not 11 and 12 years later.

He may be a sperm donor but that is all he is.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 05:51 PM

Nic99

08-03-2009, 05:52 PM

Dead people can't give themselves shot's without some sort of assistance.

imo...of course.

Very true, this never happened imo. The Doc fell asleep and should have been monitoring after the 'aid' gave the drug. Who is this aid anyway? Maybe I'll pick up The Sun tomorrow and find out, who knows?

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:53 PM

That's how it stands now Ocean, but as I said if Klein can prove he is the biological father that will change things imo.

Who knows what people will do when money in the billions is involved. There may be negotiations ongoing behind the scenes that we may never know about.

not under california law Scampi..they might make a distraction but he did not challenge within 2 years of birth while mj and DR were married, he has no standing whether he was bio or not. There are only 2 legal parents of the older children, Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe.

IMO

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 05:53 PM

hummmmm..maybe when they arrived at the scene..?? R U just kidding with me???

LMS:ohmy:

I just don't remember that reported.

in my opinion

Scampi

08-03-2009, 05:56 PM

I do understand your concern but I have read that Klein is already a millionaire.

I don't think it will make a difference even if he proves he is the father.

To be recognized as the father of a child it must be done within 2 years not 11 and 12 years later.

He may be a sperm donor but that is all he is.

imo

I am not aware of any time limits on when a person coughs up paternity information, especially in a case as weird as this one.

But, money may not be the only reason Klein may want to step in here. IMO, he may have an overwhelming desire to make sure that Joe Jackson is nowhere around these kids.

I was very dismayed to see that Joe Jackson is apparently still in LA and going out with Katherine (per the reports of a dinner this weekend.)

I do not like or trust this man and I think he is making it his business to be around the children/money. I do not think Katherine has the desire to keep him away either.

I believe Rowe and Klein have the same concern.

VC2

08-03-2009, 05:56 PM

4:49 Katherine Jackson just withdrew her petition asking that she be put in charge of the estate. This petition was filed before she knew a will existed. The issue now -- will she oppose the appointment of Branca and McClain.

4:40 -- The Jacksons have all filed back into court and the judge has taken the bench.

thanks cinder. well lets hope they have some news lol

Well she lied in her statement again when she withdrew her petition but i guess the executors nor the judge wants to push it. (Branca had called her and told her about the will before she filed her petition and/or told the attorney)

imo

Doselady

08-03-2009, 05:57 PM

4:49 Katherine Jackson just withdrew her petition asking that she be put in charge of the estate. This petition was filed before she knew a will existed. The issue now -- will she oppose the appointment of Branca and McClain.

4:40 -- The Jacksons have all filed back into court and the judge has taken the bench.

I have heard that Katherine Jackson has to be very careful not to contest the will because there is a clause in the will that says that anyone who contests the will is automatically cut from the will.

Scampi

08-03-2009, 05:58 PM

not under california law Scampi..they might make a distraction but he did not challenge within 2 years of birth while mj and DR were married, he has no standing whether he was bio or not. There are only 2 legal parents of the older children, Michael Jackson and Debbie Rowe.

IMO

Hiya VC, I am ignorant about California law, thank you!!

Scampi

08-03-2009, 05:59 PM

The time limits can be found in California Family Code. Its true, the time limits have long since tolled.

Thank you Arguendo, I have been straightened out.

VC2

08-03-2009, 06:00 PM

I am not aware of any time limits on when a person coughs up paternity information, especially in a case as weird as this one.

But, money may not be the only reason Klein may want to step in here. IMO, he may have an overwhelming desire to make sure that Joe Jackson is nowhere around these kids.

I was very dismayed to see that Joe Jackson is apparently still in LA and going out with Katherine (per the reports of a dinner this weekend.)

I do not like or trust this man and I think he is making it his business to be around the children/money. I do not think Katherine has the desire to keep him away either.

I believe Rowe and Klein have the same concern.

there is in california, if you go back to the paternity threads, the legal code was cited as were the more general information on it. When a couple is married and both are named on the birth certificate, in california-pretty sure california is alone in this- there can be no challenge to paternity after 2 years of the marriage. Well they can challenge all they like but the legal father stays the dad on the birth certificate and in the marriage for 2 years.

imo

VC2

08-03-2009, 06:03 PM

Hiya VC, I am ignorant about California law, thank you!!

YW! I only knew about it before this case because of the more stunning child support orders in CA during a divorce when everyone knows the dad is not the dad..but he has to pay while bio dad does not. Personally i like the law, but i can see why some dads who discover their wife cheated on them do not. that said, its not the childs fault who has thought of their dad as dad for their whole life and to upend it for them isn't right.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 06:07 PM

----------------

ok.................the aide did it. lol kinda like colonel mustard in the living room with the candlesticks.

In the billiards room with the rope. :laugh::laugh:

VC2

08-03-2009, 06:09 PM

TMZ:

4:54 -- During the lunch break John Branca said Jackson's estate has reached a settlement with AEG -- re: merchandising and rehearsal footage.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 06:09 PM

I have heard that Katherine Jackson has to be very careful not to contest the will because there is a clause in the will that says that anyone who contests the will is automatically cut from the will.

Yes, she does. They are being very careful on tv by saying she is not contesting the will, just the executors.

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 06:10 PM

That is true, the house has 8 bedrooms. I wonder why MJ had to be in Dr. M. room?

Because the Diprivan and drugs were in Dr. M's closet???

VC2

08-03-2009, 06:10 PM

IIRC Katherine signed consent for one of MJ's plastic surgeons to speak with the SUN.....

IMO Katherine and The SUn are equally unreliable...as is any Jackson on any topic.

KJ has no rights to sign consent for MJ's dermatologist. She should know that but more importantly his dermatologist should know that.

IMO

eta and that iirc was one of the issues with showing her the aeg contract, she refused to sign the same confidentiality agreement that MJ made in it

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 06:12 PM

It helps to read the thread and keep up.

in my opinion

Yes it does help to read the thread - and the link to the paramedics finding the IV still in his arm is in a link above or a page back. :shrug:

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:15 PM

I will keep up my initial personal belief that he's the biological father (without any legal rights). snipped.

Sounds right.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 06:17 PM

He could still have had the IV in his arm after the diprovan finished.

Not saying I believe this theory but I'm open to it.

imo

Oh this is true since the doctor was allegedly asleep.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 06:19 PM

Yes it does help to read the thread - and the link to the paramedics finding the IV still in his arm is in a link above or a page back. :shrug:

Oh, has it finally been put up? Thanks I do leave my keyboard to do ohter things. LOL

in my opinion

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:21 PM

Great question. Kia Chase didn't mention anyone in the house but Dr. Murray, herself and the children as far as I know. I can't imagine it being a bodyguard.

There was someone else who made the 911 call, at the least.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:22 PM

Not possible.

Do you know what he really looked like?

imo

Absolutely not possible. I had no idea before reading in this forum that anyone actually believe he could have been.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 06:23 PM

I'm still wondering if the IV was actually attached to Mr Jackson when EMT arrived. I just find that hard to believe.

in my opinion

VC2

08-03-2009, 06:23 PM

How on earth would you know what is or is not possible concerning MJ's sperm?

:lol: sorry that made me need to clean my keyboard. however it is a valid question.

I cant watch stream so what is tmz showing outside the courtroom?

Xenam

08-03-2009, 06:26 PM

This appears to be a pretty good summary of events since MJ's death if anyone is interested:

Michael Jackson Estate Settles With AEG, Terms Undisclosed

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Michael Jackson’s estate has reached a settlement with AEG, the concert promoter that was preparing to put on the King of Pop’s 50 comeback shows in London when he died.

Terms were not disclosed. Attorney John Branca, a co-administrator of Jackson’s estate, said during a break at a Monday court hearing in Los Angeles that the settlement governed merchandise and rehearsal footage.

The contracts and settlement agreement will be filed under seal, and a judge has five days to review and approve it. A hearing on the matter was scheduled for next Monday.

http://www.wjbf.com/jbf/news/special_reports/article/michael_jackson_developments_--_july_7th/16828/

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:26 PM

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 06:27 PM

NEWSFLASH!!

The other poster and I were discussing paternity. The tox results aren't going to determine that. doh

Excuse me, I think you should just face the fact that Mr Jackson is not the biological father of the children.

in my opinion

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:28 PM

Most likely Dr. M. knows what is going to come out in the tox report and is in CYA mode. Ya Think?

Yeah. I think.

He most likely knows those 2 things will show up on the tox screen.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:29 PM

I like you too much on the politics forum to make you my enemy here. snipped.

Thank you and likewise!

This is not in any way personal, Arguendo.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 06:31 PM

I'm still wondering if the IV was actually attached to Mr Jackson when EMT arrived. I just find that hard to believe.

in my opinion

See Post# 109

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356721&page=3

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:32 PM

Could be just me, but I am thinking Dr. M didn't use a chart or log. :wink::laugh:

I'm thinking the same thing, CinderL. I bet there was nary a chart at the scene.

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 06:36 PM

IIRC Katherine signed consent for one of MJ's plastic surgeons to speak with the SUN.....

IMO Katherine and The SUn are equally unreliable...as is any Jackson on any topic.

:lol: "The Sun and Katherine" cracks me up. Please add LaToya to the list.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 06:37 PM

See Post# 109

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356721&page=3

Thanks, but I thought an EMT said that in person and not a source through TMZ. I still don't know for sure, do you?

in my opinion

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:41 PM

He could still have had the IV in his arm after the diprovan finished.

Not saying I believe this theory but I'm open to it.

imo

Yes, as I doubt the diprivan was giving to MJ through the IV in a drip.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 06:49 PM

I'm thinking the same thing, CinderL. I bet there was nary a chart at the scene.

Or any kind of medical records.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:51 PM

Or any kind of medical records.

Of course not.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 06:52 PM

Yes, as I doubt the diprivan was giving to MJ through the IV in a drip.

I thought that was the normal way to give diprovan with an IV drip???

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 06:52 PM

If there was any forthought at all on MJ's part he will have that information, if it's even available, for them stored safe somewhere for when they ask.

I believe an anonymous donor was used.

What makes me think Klein could be the bio dad is: He said he once donated sperm anonymously and that he doesn't think he's the father. But he offered an dna test. The COINCIDENCE that Klein's (allegedly anonymously donated) sperm was used for Michael's children WOULD CONVERGE AGAINST ZERO. If he "just donated sperm" and doesn't know how it was used he doesn't have to offer a dna test -- it would be him only with a 1 : let's say 300,000 donators chance. It's totally illogical that he offered to do a dna test.

Imo he WANTS to do a dna test because he knows what the outcome would be: that he's the father.

I could also imagine they've made any deal in which DR was involved, too.

Moreover I had the impression that there was a "vibe" of dependency in the relationship between Michael and Klein. Can't explain exactly what I mean... but Michael appeared to me a bit like a mental slave to him (imo).

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:53 PM

Could you imagine how it might feel to your children, if the world was trying to decide who their bio parents are?

Actually, lots of ppl ask about my son, as he is bi-racial. (Af-Am/Samoan and 100% gorgeous!) And the ones who don't ask, assume. Adoptive families deal with that all the time. Same as with American couples who adopt children from Latin America or India or China or Korea. It happens and it is part of being in the adoption triangle--adoptive parents, child and birthparents. My children, as most children I know who have been adopted, are pretty much at ease with those questions, and comment about it themselves.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 06:55 PM

I thought that was the normal way to give diprovan with an IV drip???

With that pump, which doesn't sound like they had at the house. Most of the time (as shown on TV this past week) they just inject it into the IV injection site--the hand, for instance. Like they would, say, a shot of demerol.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 06:59 PM

At 6:00 PM ET (3:00 PM PT) we are going to go live in our newsroom to answer your questions about the Michael Jackson case.

Harvey and Mike will be live, answering anything you want to know about.

Use the comment box below to post your questions, and we'll handle as many as possible live.

Be there.

HNN has some information coming up. I have no idea where TMZ's newsroom is. Anyone know?

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 07:00 PM

With that pump, which doesn't sound like they had at the house. Most of the time (as shown on TV this past week) they just inject it into the IV injection site--the hand, for instance. Like they would, say, a shot of demerol.

I thought they hung the IV bag on the pole with the diprovan injected into the IV line, then used the roller thing to adjust the drip. :shrug:

VC2

08-03-2009, 07:04 PM

With that pump, which doesn't sound like they had at the house. Most of the time (as shown on TV this past week) they just inject it into the IV injection site--the hand, for instance. Like they would, say, a shot of demerol.

no daniel, not as the anaesthetic for sleep or any more than 45 seconds. Yes if they are inducing and planning a different med or more for the anaesthetic in surgery but it has to be a monitored drip even if its manual not pumped because it only lasts 30 to 40 seconds to work and a couple of minutes before they wake up again

So if it was just injected in the hand, they wake right back up within a minute, it had to be continuous monitoring of some form of bag drip to keep him asleep.

imo

Xenam

08-03-2009, 07:13 PM

I thought that was the normal way to give diprovan with an IV drip???

According to what I've read and heard the doctors saying on all of these talk shows they say it would have been a continuous drip much like this anas. describes:

"As a doctor, it disturbs me that MJ may have been able to obtain propofol for home use; however, his being a celebrity, I’m sure that many people are willing to do extra favors for him.

As an anesthesiologist, I can tell you that the action of propofol is very short, so in order to be used for insomnia it would have to be given as a continuous infusion. Additionally, it has to be dosed very carefully to provide sedative effects without causing the patient to become apneic (no longer breathing). Thus, the logistics of it being used at home are impractical, not to mention dangerous.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/07/did-propofol-or-diprivan-kill-michael-jackson.html

ish

08-03-2009, 07:22 PM

IIRC Katherine signed consent for one of MJ's plastic surgeons to speak with the SUN.....

IMO Katherine and The SUn are equally unreliable...as is any Jackson on any topic.

I'm beginning to suspect Katherine Jackson is not nearly the sweet old granny people are making her out to be. She's already vehemently defending Joe agaignst the abuse allegations that Michael spoke about, none of the kids were ever abused according to her. If Rebbie is doing the day to day raising of the kids, what function does Katherine have? IMO, she will use her access to the $$ to continue to support ALL her children and grandchildren and Joe, the same way Michael has been doing all these years (except for Joe) . If he thought he was cutting them off by giving limited access to the money to his mother, he was wrong, she isn't going to allow her other kids to suffer and she certainly has enjoyed living the good life all these years. I wonder if she and Joe didn't agree to stay apart as much so that Michael would be more willing to give $ to Mom believing Dad wasn't getting a cut. The executors/administrators better keep a tight watch on Katherine's and the kid's expenses cause I'm betting it starts to funnel its way to the rest of the family.

Xenam

08-03-2009, 07:23 PM

This doctor who was the fist or one of the first doctors to do tests on diprivan in the US did not think MJ died from it but as I'm reading it's because he did not think Dr. Murray would administer it. He also used a continuous drip for a 15 minute surgery:

"Turns out Mike may have been the first U.S. doc to do tests on propofol (brand name Diprivan) - the powerful, anxiety-erasing anesthetic that was found in the star's home after his death. Mike also led two research groups that did studies on the drug. So, we transcribed our conversation about propofol:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/michaeljackson/story/838957.html

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 07:23 PM

I find Harvey's obsession with gossip really weird for a guy.

Just sayin'

imo

They're over at TMZ answering questions. I have nothing to ask them. lol

There will have another court hearing Monday on the estate. I guess the executors are permanent, but don't know.

Katherine can have the AEG contract subject to confidentiality statement being signed.

in my opinion

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 07:28 PM

I find Harvey's obsession with gossip really weird for a guy.

Just sayin'

imo

Harvey Levin is an incredibly smart attorney and TMZ, owned by him has rarely been wrong with their reporting. Not gossip, good investigative reporting.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 07:34 PM

Los Angeles judge has named Michael Jackson's mother as permanent guardian of the star's children, ignoring a surprise late bid by the singer's dermatologist to have a say in their upbringing. Lawyers for Katherine Jackson, 79, and the King of Pop's ex-wife Debbie Rowe last week agreed on custody arrangements concerning children Prince Michael, 12, Paris, 11 and Prince Michael II, seven. But what was expected to be a straightforward hearing to approve the agreement on Monday (local time) took a bizarre turn when an attorney for Jackson's skin doctor, Arnold Klein, appeared at the hearing. Lawyer Mark Vincent Kaplan said Dr Klein wanted to "have a voice" in issues concerning the children's "education, healthcare and welfare". Asked repeatedly by Judge Mitchell Beckloff to state what Dr Klein's interest was, Mr Kaplan said it was due to his client's "longstanding relationship with the children and longstanding relationship with Mr Jackson".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/04/2645164.htm?section=entertainment

daniel green

08-03-2009, 07:34 PM

daniel green

08-03-2009, 07:37 PM

Its just a guess on my part, but somehow I don't think those 3 kids think its a no big deal thing, when people are saying that their father isn't their father.

In my opinion, both as an adoptive parent to a child who looks nothing like me and with my long time work with children and from having read every book by every expert about adoption as well as what our adoption agency/counselors told us--honesty and openness is the best policy.

The children will look at themselves in the mirror and see the same thing we see. The best way to deal with those questions is to tell the truth. And if you lose your children's trust with lies about something like that--well, then, that is huge.

ish

08-03-2009, 07:39 PM

You're just beginning to wonder...

I am very upset she has custody of those children. IMO She is every bit as evil as Joe.....in her own way. She plays sweet and meek...IMO She's a wolf in sheep's clothing!

I'm not a big Jackson fan and haven't followed too much of his story. What I have read has always been very supportive of Katherine, so I never thought twice about it. Now that so much is being written I see another side to her and it is not looking so pleasant. I sense she catered to Michael for obvious reasons ($) even though I'm sure his lifestyle was far from her choice for him. If she is such a devout JW, I can only imagine her disappointment in him, but even her devoutness I question as recent photos show a 79 yr old woman who seems to have had some "help" maintaining her youthful appearance.

daniel green

08-03-2009, 07:42 PM

That's my opinion as well.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 07:46 PM

I'm not a big Jackson fan and haven't followed too much of his story. What I have read has always been very supportive of Katherine, so I never thought twice about it. Now that so much is being written I see another side to her and it is not looking so pleasant. I sense she catered to Michael for obvious reasons ($) even though I'm sure his lifestyle was far from her choice for him. If she is such a devout JW, I can only imagine her disappointment in him, but even her devoutness I question as recent photos show a 79 yr old woman who seems to have had some "help" maintaining her youthful appearance.

I certainly agree with you. I bet she is mean as a witch to the executors. She wants the money for herself and JOE. I think it was known she was a heavy hitter with her kids too.

I don't think the children should be with her at all.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 07:48 PM

I certainly agree with you. I bet she is mean as a witch to the executors. She wants the money for herself and JOE. I think it was known she was a heavy hitter with her kids too.

I don't think the children should be with her at all.

in my opinion

IMO there aren't too many great choices for those kids. KJ, DR, and now Dr. Arnie Kline. What a joke that one is. Pretty sad though.

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 07:48 PM

Oh my goodnes..I have no indication these kids are Imbeciles..that are by all appearances..quite normal..and given their ages..and their life experiences..I rather doubt they dont know their heritage....and I dont think KJ custody is going to alter their understanding..

Foregive me..but isnt Grace there with these kids??..She has been with them from the time they were born...I think she will make sure they are not harmed..or taken advantage of..emotionally anyway...But then again, maybe there should be some sort of protection from JJ from forcing them to get involved with some money making venture..

LMS

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 07:52 PM

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 07:54 PM

I'm beginning to suspect Katherine Jackson is not nearly the sweet old granny people are making her out to be. She's already vehemently defending Joe agaignst the abuse allegations that Michael spoke about, none of the kids were ever abused according to her. If Rebbie is doing the day to day raising of the kids, what function does Katherine have? IMO, she will use her access to the $$ to continue to support ALL her children and grandchildren and Joe, the same way Michael has been doing all these years (except for Joe) . If he thought he was cutting them off by giving limited access to the money to his mother, he was wrong, she isn't going to allow her other kids to suffer and she certainly has enjoyed living the good life all these years. I wonder if she and Joe didn't agree to stay apart as much so that Michael would be more willing to give $ to Mom believing Dad wasn't getting a cut. The executors/administrators better keep a tight watch on Katherine's and the kid's expenses cause I'm betting it starts to funnel its way to the rest of the family.

May I politely ask you ish, how will the way that Katherine Jackson spends her money effect your life in any way. It sure won't effect mine and I dare say no one else that posts here as well. Too much is being made of this and not enough emphasis on how MJ died. Honestly I don't care where that money goes as long as the children are taken care of and I am sure they will be. And whether she gives some to the other siblings won't make a difference one way or the other. It is hers to do with what she wants. She has hers and the children have theirs. What she has left when she dies goes to the children but by then the three kids will all be multi millionaires ten times over. How much money is enough in your opinion and why do you care so much?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 07:57 PM

Do you think DR knows that Katherine Jackson is an apparent anti-semite?

imo

Yes, I think she does. Dr. Klein probably knows too. I think Katherine Jackson may be more careful now with what she says around those children knowing they will be visiting with Ms Rowe.

in my opinion

Zenyatta

08-03-2009, 07:57 PM

ok, so why would Katherine and Joe go on Geraldo Rivera and start a rumor that AEG murdered Michael and that Dr. Murray was just the fall guy?

Maybe because Joe has already talked about filing a wrongful death suit. Think about it -- who's the better defendant? A destitute Dr. Murray who may or may not have malpractice insurance, which may not cover such an extreme error as administering Diprivan in a home setting? Or AEG and their deep pockets?

Oh, which story will sell the most books?

imo

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 07:58 PM

Oh C'mon..................did you ever see the TV show? He's Professor Gossip and the kids sit in the classroom and tell him who they tormented that day. It's pathetic.

"We got Lou Ferigno at the LA airport" - lol. That's journalism? Levin has taken gossip to new heights.

imo

The only positive I could say about TMZ is that they put value on correct information and try to back up their information (by documents etc.)

Nevertheless their reports ARE sensationalizing (for example: over weeks just pics of Michael Jackson wearing black sunglasses to make the story look mysteriously). They sometimes edit their videos in way that the message is changed. (I have on mind a video of Lindsay Lohan. The report was that she was desperately knocking at the door of her partner. The part of the original video when she shouted at the paparazzi and angrily asked them to leave the property was cut out. The true reason was that she desperately wanted to get in because she felt stalked -- not trouble with her girlfriend.)

I feel disgusted by the methods how TMZ gets its information. The paparazzi are often (imo) brain- and heartless and show no respect for the inviduals they stalk -- not even in sad moments after break ups etc.

Furthermore it's not okay imo that very private information is released to the public, for example birth certificates or the pic of beaten up Rihanna. I question how they get that sort of information.

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 07:58 PM

Oh there is. Their mother will be watching and she has visiting privileges. I wouldn't count her out as having plenty of influence where Joe is concerned.

in my opinion

I am not discounting DR..at all..however..I dont think she will intervene if those kids are protected...I love it..in a sense..DR..doesnt need to have custody in order to exert pressures...Great position for her to be in...I know everyone has villified her..but I dont think she wants to hurt them kids one bit..and only got involved..cause she didnt get her rightful compensations from back then...But then again??? I dont think she really wants them ( 2 older ones)..but would likely intervene IF JJ gets his sticky fingers involved..LOL

LMS

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 08:01 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 08:02 PM

Like the way she looked after MJ?

YOUR POINT????..She had NO Control over her boss. back then....Give me a break!!

Hey.Courts are NOW involved ...I am sure if she has something to say..she will have standing!!!

LMS:sneaky:

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 08:03 PM

Like the way she looked after MJ?

That was not her job and why are you being so snarky since you are relatively new here?

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 08:07 PM

They are stalkers and Harvey is the stalking supervisor. He makes me gag. :mad:

imo

Wow, well that's putting in the right context.:thumbsup:

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:07 PM

May I politely ask you ish, how will the way that Katherine Jackson spends her money effect your life in any way. It sure won't effect mine and I dare say no one else that posts here as well. Too much is being made of this and not enough emphasis on how MJ died. Honestly I don't care where that money goes as long as the children are taken care of and I am sure they will be. And whether she gives some to the other siblings won't make a difference one way or the other. It is hers to do with what she wants. She has hers and the children have theirs. What she has left when she dies goes to the children but by then the three kids will all be multi millionaires ten times over. How much money is enough in your opinion and why do you care so much?

Hopefully someone has more sense than MJ when it comes to handling money. If I recall he was $400 million in debt. Everyone will certainly have plenty if they get a handle on his estate.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:10 PM

Great point. I put nothing past the Jacksons. And Leonard Rowe wants a piece of the action as well.

imo

I didn't believe one thing that Leonard R. said. Sounded a lot like sour grapes to me.

Zenyatta

08-03-2009, 08:10 PM

Great point. I put nothing past the Jacksons. And Leonard Rowe wants a piece of the action as well.

imo

Leonard Rowe. ugh. Don't forget Dr. Hoefflin, Michael's former plastic surgeon who is supposedly is authorized to speak on behalf of the Jackson's regarding the shadowy entourage that conspired to kill Michael. Sounds like Hoefflin might have it in for Klein. imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:13 PM

YOUR POINT????..She had NO Control over her boss. back then....Give me a break!!

Hey.Courts are NOW involved ...I am sure if she has something to say..she will have standing!!!

LMS:sneaky:

Huh? I thought Sandy was talking about KJ. Who was her boss? You lost me here.:biggrin:

Oh, never mind. Talking about the Nanny. I get it. OPPS.

Zenyatta

08-03-2009, 08:14 PM

Ahhhhh commen sense prevails! GOLD STAR for you!

ah, thanks. Good to see you!

The Jackson's may also believe that if they can spin enough to file suit (I almost said find someone to file suit....LOL), AEG might be more likely to throw a few million at this just to make it go away. They've seen that happen before, haven't they? imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:17 PM

Speaking of Grace......didn't she work for MJ before she was the nanny? Does anyone remember what she did before?

who_is_it

08-03-2009, 08:19 PM

Well, Katherine sure wanted the contract between AEG and Mr Jackson.
They see $$$$$, but just don't know where yet. Probably all the Jacksons will write a book. LOL

in my opinion

It makes me barf

From a moral (not legal) perspective:
AEG supported Michael's comeback; he himself wanted a superstar comeback (no unprofessional show but a show with perfection in its minute details). He was lucky that finally a reputed, financially strong company cared because he wasn't easy to deal with imo.

AEG has enough losses. They should have left the rights on the rehearsal videos to them imo; the Jacksons get enough $$$ by unreleased songs imo.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 08:20 PM

Speaking of Grace......didn't she work for MJ before she was the nanny? Does anyone remember what she did before?

I guess she had no nanny credentials if she worked for him before at something else.

in my opinion

Eagleeye

08-03-2009, 08:22 PM

A nanny to 3 children, knew their parent was a drug addict..........how hard is picking up the phone and dialing CPS?

Grace was there to care for the children not to monitor the proclivities of Michael Jackson and she did a masterful job of it. I see no evidence that those children were abused in any way, so why would she call CPS?? Have a good evening I will not respond to you further.

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 08:28 PM

Speaking of Grace......didn't she work for MJ before she was the nanny? Does anyone remember what she did before?

Of course CinderL..She has been involved with MJ since before the kids..but became a sort of nuturing figure and NANNY since they were born..Now...to make a clear statement..IF she ever has any complaint where the kids are concerned..since there is a Child Psychologist now assessing them..per possible DR visititation..One would only think they would interview the "Nanny"..to see how they are..and where their heads are at..AND that (Grace) INPUT will always be heard down the road..

I believe Grace started out as a simple clerk of some sort..and moved up..and became involved when the kids came into the picture...thats all I remember..

LMS

Imperfect4

08-03-2009, 08:29 PM

Glad to see a raised eyebrow about the behavior of the Jackson clan is no longer politically incorrect on this thread.

I don't think it should come as any surprise this group is financially motivated. It seems for the last 30-40 years -- ever since MJ struck out on his own as a performer -- his family has been chasing after him, trying to grab onto his coattails, pleading with him and trying to guilt him into reunion tours and other business ventures.

Somehow, it became Michael's responsibility to insure the rest of the family got access to the good life through his fame and success -- all in the name of "family," I'm sure.

I've often wondered if Janet receives similar treatment. My guess is it's no accident she lives (I believe) on the other side of the country from the rest of them.

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 08:33 PM

To force the man to get some help for his addiction.

How is standing by and watching their father slowly killing himself good for his children? How can she look them in the face and say...yeah, I knew your daddy had a drug problem, but it wasn't my job to do anything about it. How can she sleep at night and look at herself in the mirror?

HELLO..That isnt her job..she was there for the kids..and protected them from seeing their dad "Out of Sorts"..She was under a "Confidentiality Agreement" like the rest..and couldnt say nothing..but she DID protect the KIDS!!

Now..I would like to know ....Who the heck protected MJ from himself??? No one did..and if they tried they got tossed aside....Would you really expect Ms Grace to throw those kids under the BUS?..At this point by your comments..Not sure of your stance..???????????

LMS

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 08:40 PM

To force the man to get some help for his addiction.

How is standing by and watching their father slowly killing himself good for his children? How can she look them in the face and say...yeah, I knew your daddy had a drug problem, but it wasn't my job to do anything about it. How can she sleep at night and look at herself in the mirror?

It was reported at one time that Grace actually did try and help MJ and was let go for going behind MJ's back and talking to some members of his family about his condition. I don't know if anyone can do anymore than that, an addict really does have to decide on their own to seek help.

JMO

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:45 PM

I guess she had no nanny credentials if she worked for him before at something else.

in my opinion

Did I say that? Geez. I just remember that she worked for him before she became the Nanny, and couldn't remember what she did for him. I guess you don't know. Thanks anyway.

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:47 PM

Of course CinderL..She has been involved with MJ since before the kids..but became a sort of nuturing figure and NANNY since they were born..Now...to make a clear statement..IF she ever has any complaint where the kids are concerned..since there is a Child Psychologist now assessing them..per possible DR visititation..One would only think they would interview the "Nanny"..to see how they are..and where their heads are at..AND that (Grace) INPUT will always be heard down the road..

I believe Grace started out as a simple clerk of some sort..and moved up..and became involved when the kids came into the picture...thats all I remember..

LMS

Thank you. For the record here, I think she did a great job as Nanny.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 08:51 PM

Did I say that? Geez. I just remember that she worked for him before she became the Nanny, and couldn't remember what she did for him. I guess you don't know. Thanks anyway.

No, you didn't say that. I said that.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 08:54 PM

No, you didn't say that. I said that.

in my opinion

I misunderstood, sorry. What credentials do you need to be a nanny? I am still not getting what you mean.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 08:59 PM

I misunderstood, sorry. What credentials do you need to be a nanny? I am still not getting what you mean.

I don't know. I don't know if CA requires Nannies to have background checks with the police like in my state and to be fingerprinted and a photo taken of them. I don't know if they have to be licensed in CA.
They will be taking care of children after all.

in my opinion

Lyndawitha"Y

08-03-2009, 09:02 PM

I thought she was already tossed out, quite a few times over his addiction? All I know, if I were her, I would have called. I would have hoped CPS would have removed his children and that would have forced him into treatment. That would be my line of thinking anyway.

A confidentiality agreement doesn't shield someone if they're doing illegal things. A real nanny would be a mandated reporter in my state. Not sure about CA.

I don't understand the "throw the kids under the bus" comment? If they were removed, it's not like they would go into foster care. They would be exactly where they are now....only their father would be alive. IMO

Its obvious you dont get alot of things..she is was a NANNY and was fired back in fall of 2008...and you just have to know if she had ever said one word..she would have been GONE alot sooner...She travelled with MJ and the kids all over the world...and her main duty was to nuture those kids..

I am not trying to argue..but her power where the kids were concerned prior to his death..had no standing..but NOW what she has to say Does..She knows those kids way more than even Grandma!!..

IF she had of created any bad vibes...She knew she would have put those kids to risk..thus "kids under the bus" comment..as she would have no control..and no doubt worried..

I just cant get a grasp on your take on this whole affair..except to try and argue..So with a that..I am not going to respond again..

Have a nice day!

LMS

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 09:11 PM

I don't know. I don't know if CA requires Nannies to have background checks with the police like in my state and to be fingerprinted and a photo taken of them. I don't know if they have to be licensed in CA.
They will be taking care of children after all.

in my opinion

I don't think so. I have a friend was is a nanny, and she didn't have to do anything special, except take CPR class.

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 09:12 PM

I am watching a video right now on HLN raw footage of the children and Mr Jackson at Neverland. There is a nanny there which must be Grace.
She is wearing a white uniform. The children knew Grace was an employee. Any closeness the children felt was not as a mom.

in my opinion

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 09:13 PM

Anyone watching NG? Did you see the video? Did anyone here him ask "do you know your lines" ? I am not sure I heard that right.

GentleBreeze

08-03-2009, 09:13 PM

Its obvious you don't get alot of things..she is was a NANNY and was fired back in fall of 2008...and you just have to know if she had ever said one word..she would have been GONE alot sooner...She traveled with MJ and the kids all over the world...and her main duty was to nurture those kids..

I am not trying to argue..but her power where the kids were concerned prior to his death..had no standing..but NOW what she has to say Does..She knows those kids way more than even Grandma!!..

IF she had of created any bad vibes...She knew she would have put those kids to risk..thus "kids under the bas" comment..as she would have no control..and no doubt worried..

I just cant get a grasp on your take on this whole affair..except to try and argue..So with a that..I am not going to respond again..

Have a nice day!

LMS

I agree. I think Grace is a vital part of these children's up bringing and she should be very proud of the many years she devoted to them and what wonderful children they have become. Imo, she was like a mother figure in their lives and even if she was fired, she always returned to these children who I believe deeply loved her as she loved them. If one looks at the photos of Grace and the children it is plain to see how comfortable they are with her. Even if someone didnt know any different they would think that Grace was their mother.

I am so glad she is by their side once again. I am not surprised one bit. While there may have been trying times during the years, I believe that Grace , the children and MJ shared many treasured moments together.

Grace and the children will always have that bond because all of them have such heartfelt love and precious memories of MJ that they can share over and over with each other.

imo

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 09:15 PM

eh, you're probably right...wicked PMS. I won't be mean to the dog or the kid.............so it looks like here is my only outlet at the moment:)

:scared: :lol:

VC2

08-03-2009, 09:16 PM

I like the home video

CinderL.

08-03-2009, 09:17 PM

retiredcop

08-03-2009, 09:17 PM

I don't think so. I have a friend was is a nanny, and she didn't have to do anything special, except take CPR class.

Well, that's a shame. At least a background check and making sure they are not illegal immigrants.

in my opinion

mrsmcgoo

08-03-2009, 09:17 PM

Anyone watching NG? Did you see the video? Did anyone here him ask "do you know your lines" ? I am not sure I heard that right.

I was watching and I thought that Paris said something about being in movies and than MJ said something like "are you going to say your lines?" Something like that....seems strange though, Paris says almost word or word what she said at the memorial. Seems a little rehearsed.

They sang "You Are My Sunshine" and sang, please don't take my Dad away. Poor little children.

JMO