Ringling Bros.

[BorderCollieMom]

First, let it be clear that I am NOT in any way a Peta supporter or whatever....except where it comes to abuse cases like these circus ones.

I just saw their "new" Ringling Bros. hidden camera video. I dont think it was taken very long ago. Honestly, I was boo hooing and didnt even read the article.

I only googled a little bit and I dont understand why this seems to be so secretive. I didnt notice any lawmakers or Federal people/laws .

Anyone know where this all stands on the legal front ? I have never understood why it seems its ok for stuff like this to happen. I read Peta is showing this video in Dallas at the RB circus....will folks go on in ? go back to their cars & leave ? or ?

[Mr. Moto2]

It is sickening how this crap is still happening. I hope Peta gets some traction with their undercover report and video. Circuses are such an anachronism. Zoos are too.

[Mr. Moto2]

Here's the video - I only watched brief parts of it because I was starting to rage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECspj0daAlE


BorderCollieMom, I don't know why this abuse persists. It's been going on for decades. There have been plenty of reports and protests, but the abuse continues. I don't understand why circuses are still allowed to have animals acts. They could successfully operate with their other acts and shows.

[warhorse46]

First, let it be clear that I am NOT in any way a Peta supporter or whatever....except where it comes to abuse cases like these circus ones.

I just saw their "new" Ringling Bros. hidden camera video. I dont think it was taken very long ago. Honestly, I was boo hooing and didnt even read the article.

I only googled a little bit and I dont understand why this seems to be so secretive. I didnt notice any lawmakers or Federal people/laws .

Anyone know where this all stands on the legal front ? I have never understood why it seems its ok for stuff like this to happen. I read Peta is showing this video in Dallas at the RB circus....will folks go on in ? go back to their cars & leave ? or ?


There was a huge lawsuit recently involving PETA & the circus about the elephants. I don't think I ever heard the outcome tho.

[Jay]

It is sickening how this crap is still happening. I hope Peta gets some traction with their undercover report and video. Circuses are such an anachronism. Zoos are too.


No, zoos are not.

I have never understood how people support rodeo's.

Why does a horse/bull need to be ridden like that, I mean bronc bustin, to me, that is animal cruelty.

Also, jumping off a horse to rope and tie a cow or whatever!

[R~O~S]

There was a huge lawsuit recently involving PETA & the circus about the elephants. I don't think I ever heard the outcome tho.


I don't think it's actually had an outcome yet:

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/press.php?p=1877&more=1

Born Free USA, along with three other national animal protection organizations and a former Ringling employee, is a plaintiff in a federal lawsuit against Ringling for violating the Endangered Species Act by mistreating the endangered Asian Elephants in its care. After years of delay, the trial will force Ringling to finally answer allegations of elephant abuse in open court.

There were proceedings in October 2008, if I understand it correctly the one decision made was that captive born elephants do not qualify under the endangered species act, therefore they will not be covered as the suit goes forward, however the circus lost on the point of "pre-act" exemption.

http://mammals.suite101.com/article.cfm/ringling_bros_to_battle_animal_cruelty_lawsuit

Article is all rights reserved, no quoting.

I can't find a date for the next court hearing on the matter, nor can I find anything saying the suit has been settled or dismissed.


I do believe the circus has enough money to keep it in the courts for many years without a ruling.

The circus has publicly stated if the suit prevails and they're not allowed to use the training methods they currently use, they'll eliminate the elephants from the show, but I think the court ruling that captive born elephants don't come under the act will allow them to go on using strictly captive born animals. IMO

[warhorse46]

No, zoos are not.

I have never understood how people support rodeo's.

Why does a horse/bull need to be ridden like that, I mean bronc bustin, to me, that is animal cruelty.

Also, jumping off a horse to rope and tie a cow or whatever!


You obviously know little of the rules & workings of rodeo.

[warhorse46]

I don't think it's actually had an outcome yet:

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/press.php?p=1877&more=1



There were proceedings in October 2008, if I understand it correctly the one decision made was that captive born elephants do not qualify under the endangered species act, therefore they will not be covered as the suit goes forward, however the circus lost on the point of "pre-act" exemption.

http://mammals.suite101.com/article.cfm/ringling_bros_to_battle_animal_cruelty_lawsuit

Article is all rights reserved, no quoting.

I can't find a date for the next court hearing on the matter, nor can I find anything saying the suit has been settled or dismissed.


I do believe the circus has enough money to keep it in the courts for many years without a ruling.

The circus has publicly stated if the suit prevails and they're not allowed to use the training methods they currently use, they'll eliminate the elephants from the show, but I think the court ruling that captive born elephants don't come under the act will allow them to go on using strictly captive born animals. IMO


Thanks. Sounds like it was only partially ruled upon & the rest is still in limbo.

[peggyleggy]

No, zoos are not.

I have never understood how people support rodeo's.

Why does a horse/bull need to be ridden like that, I mean bronc bustin, to me, that is animal cruelty.

Also, jumping off a horse to rope and tie a cow or whatever!

Oh I so agree! It is one thing to rope animals on a ranch for whatever reason but to rope and throw them to the ground just for sport is so wrong.
And what they do to the horses and bulls to make them kick is nothing but cruel as you said.

[Jay]

Oh I so agree! It is one thing to rope animals on a ranch for whatever reason but to rope and throw them to the ground just for sport is so wrong.
And what they do to the horses and bulls to make them kick is nothing but cruel as you said.


Thank you. My eyes see what I see.

One time I saw a little calf, a baby calf, being roped to the ground!!

How is that justified?

[warhorse46]

Oh I so agree! It is one thing to rope animals on a ranch for whatever reason but to rope and throw them to the ground just for sport is so wrong.
And what they do to the horses and bulls to make them kick is nothing but cruel as you said.

What do you think they do to the horses & bulls to make them buck?

[warhorse46]

ITA!! I refuse to support any rodeo and circus!:thumbdown: Anything that uses animals for the "entertainment" of people is wrong!

So in your opinion all equestrian sports (hunters, western saddle, cutting, dressage, reining, polo) are all wrong?

[warhorse46]

Thank you. My eyes see what I see.

One time I saw a little calf, a baby calf, being roped to the ground!!

How is that justified?




That is done thousands of times daily on cattle ranches all over the world. The calves are used for one event only because of their growth. There are weight limits for roping calves.

[warhorse46]

:wink: Yes I guess some people think that putting a flank strap on an animal to cause irritation to them to make them buck is ok. Also if they think that a flank strap is not cruel then why do they put them on the animal in the first place. Ever see a bronc or a bull in a rodeo without it???? Not to mention getting constantly spurred by the cowboy who receives extra points for doing so.


Yes I do know why flank straps are used, I think you do not know the REAL reason.


<<Flank Straps
A flank strap is a piece of equipment positioned in the flank of a bucking horse. The outside of the "flank" is typically leather, and the inside, the side that touches the horse, is lined with sheepskin or neoprene. A flank strap is used to alter the bucking action of the horse by encouraging him to kick out higher and straighter with his hind legs. The flank strap stacks the odds in favor of the horse, and it cannot not make him buck.

The most often repeated fallacy regarding flank straps is that they are designed to cause a horse pain, usually described as putting painful pressure either on a horse's kidneys or genitals. However, a flank strap cannot put pressure on the kidneys as they are shielded by the horse's rib cage, and one quick look underneath a male or female horse lets one know it is physically impossible to cover the genitals with a flank strap.

That painful pressure on the flanks alone is enough to make a horse buck violently is another falsehood. In fact, causing a horse pain with pressure in the flanks makes a horse reluctant to move. Intentionally putting painful pressure in the flank area of a large animal is a very old technique called "girding." Before modern pharmaceuticals such as tranquilizers were common, girding was often used to restrain large animals for medical treatment. To pull a flank strap too tightly on a rodeo animal would cause him to be reluctant to move, let alone buck in the powerful, athletic and wide range of motion required of a rodeo bronc.
http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/bronc_riding.htm >>>

[warhorse46]

At the contestant's nod, the chute gate is opened. At the same time a person behind the chute pulls on the buck strap, tightening it around the horse's very sensitive flank area. This is similar to grabbing a very sensitive nerve area of a human being. Just as a person would instinctively fight to escape the tormenting grip, so does the horse fight and buck in a futile attempt to escape the buck strap.


Some rodeo opponents claim the buck strap goes over a horses genitals. This is not true. Regardless, the buck strap is a hated torment for a horse.

The bucking events cannot be held without the buck strap. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania banned the use of the buck strap over a decade ago, and the town hasn't had a rodeo since. The buck strap is as vital to the Rodeo Mafia as it is cruel and tormenting to the horse.

As the video clips show, a horse does not stop bucking when a contestant is thrown. The horse continues to fight the torment of the buck strap. The contestant does, however, add to the suffering by spurring the horse.

http://www.sharkonline.org/rodeocrueltyhorsebucking.mv



Not true. I have been in rodeo for over 50 years & can say definitely that over 99% of horses & bulls DO stop bucking once the rider is down. And they calmly walk out of the arena most of the time with the flank strap still in place. If it was causing pain or torment the animal would stand still to reduce the torment, it would not buck. Also your statement about spurring leads me to believe you do not know the PRCA or PBR rules for spurs. The rowels of the spurs must be blunted & not locked into place, they must spin.

Straight from the PBR rule book.

<<Q: Do the spurs worn by a bull rider cut or scratch a bull?
A: Bull riders wear spurs that are required to have dull, loosely locked rowels (the wheel-like part of the spur that comes into
contact with the animal). The spurs help a rider maintain his balance by giving him added grip with his feet. The spurs do not
cut or scratch a bull’s hide, which is seven times thicker than a human’s skin.
http://www.pbrnow.com/contentPrinter.cfm?content=BULLATHLETES&&pdf=true >>

[peggyleggy]

After googling rodeo events to acquire some knowledge about the practice, I still stand by my original thought that it is animal abuse. Every single animal rights organization including the ASPCA oppose rodeos.

This is their view on it:

The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)
The ASPCA has a policy statement on rodeo events that reads:

"The ASPCA is opposed to all rodeo events that involve cruel, painful, stressful and potentially harmful treatment of livestock, not only in performance but also in handling, transport and prodding to perform. The ASPCA recognizes the cruel treatment inflicted on many additional animals in the process of practicing to compete in rodeo events. Further, the ASPCA is opposed to children’s rodeo events such as goat tying, calf riding and sheep riding (“mutton busting”), which do not promote humane care and respect for animals."

[R~O~S]

After googling rodeo events to acquire some knowledge about the practice, I still stand by my original thought that it is animal abuse. Every single animal rights organization including the ASPCA oppose rodeos.

This is their view on it:

The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)
The ASPCA has a policy statement on rodeo events that reads:

"The ASPCA is opposed to all rodeo events that involve cruel, painful, stressful and potentially harmful treatment of livestock, not only in performance but also in handling, transport and prodding to perform. The ASPCA recognizes the cruel treatment inflicted on many additional animals in the process of practicing to compete in rodeo events. Further, the ASPCA is opposed to children’s rodeo events such as goat tying, calf riding and sheep riding (“mutton busting”), which do not promote humane care and respect for animals."

I'm a New England girl, I have no experience with rodeos, but you did notice they're not condemning rodeos in general, but those that involve cruel, painful, stressful and potentially harmful treatment of livestock.

If they condemned rodeos, properly run rodeos, the statement would have been a lot shorter.

IOW, I don't think the ASPCA is backing you up based on the statement you're quoting. But, I have no experience with them and therefore no informed opinion.

[peggyleggy]

I'm a New England girl, I have no experience with rodeos, but you did notice they're not condemning rodeos in general, but those that involve cruel, painful, stressful and potentially harmful treatment of livestock.

If they condemned rodeos, properly run rodeos, the statement would have been a lot shorter.

IOW, I don't think the ASPCA is backing you up based on the statement you're quoting. But, I have no experience with them and therefore no informed opinion.

Forget the animal rights groups then and just think about it. These poor animals are being forced to "perform" in a stressful, tormenting way in front of screaming spectators. It may not always constitute physical abuse but it is animal abuse.

[R~O~S]

Forget the animal rights groups then and just think about it. These poor animals are being forced to "perform" in a stressful, tormenting way in front of screaming spectators. It may not always constitute physical abuse but it is animal abuse.

Aparently not, otherwise the ASPCA would be right there with you.

Take heart though, I'm sure PETA agrees with you. They think having a cat or dog is animal slavery and should be outlawed.

[kitty1182]

No animal should be hurt:sad:

[warhorse46]

Then why the need for the use of any spurs or buck strap/flank strap??? As a self proclaimed animal lover I am surprised that you endorse this.


From your link it does not say anything about the spurs used on horses. Are those the exact same that are used on bulls? Or do they change spurs depending on what animal they want to irritate for the amusement of people?



My links do say what the spurs & flank straps are used for go back & reread the links I provided. As I stated I have been in & around rodeo for 50 years so I know the facts from the propaganda spewed by radicals like peta.

[warhorse46]

After googling rodeo events to acquire some knowledge about the practice, I still stand by my original thought that it is animal abuse. Every single animal rights organization including the ASPCA oppose rodeos.

This is their view on it:

The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)
The ASPCA has a policy statement on rodeo events that reads:

"The ASPCA is opposed to all rodeo events that involve cruel, painful, stressful and potentially harmful treatment of livestock, not only in performance but also in handling, transport and prodding to perform. The ASPCA recognizes the cruel treatment inflicted on many additional animals in the process of practicing to compete in rodeo events. Further, the ASPCA is opposed to children’s rodeo events such as goat tying, calf riding and sheep riding (“mutton busting”), which do not promote humane care and respect for animals."



Lots of half truths, untruths & propaganda but it is your right to believe the rubbish if you so choose. But if you really read the statement it is pertaining to events that are not held under the rules of the PRCA & PBR. This statement addresses that issue "which do not promote humane care and respect for animals." And yes I agree with you on those rogue rodeos, they sometimes do use unacceptable methods that is why I will not participate in nor attend any of them.

[Pashie]

Watch this and then tell me you're ok with rodeos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Vg0w-l_Oo


That is difficult to watch. :crying:

[warhorse46]

Forget the animal rights groups then and just think about it. These poor animals are being forced to "perform" in a stressful, tormenting way in front of screaming spectators. It may not always constitute physical abuse but it is animal abuse.


No they are not being forced to do anything. If a bull or horse makes up its mind not to do something, man cannot budge it. These bulls & horses are specifically bred to buck as the links to facts I provided state. Out of approx 500 calves produced out of bucking stock a breeder may---MAY get one that has the bucking attitude. The rest are beef cattle. The bull calves that show a bucking attitude are entered into the futurities when they are 2 year olds. A metal box is strapped to their back, the chute gate is opened & if the young bulls wants it will buck to get rid of the box. Most of them just walk out into the arena & stand looking around giving no attempt to buck. If the young bulls continue to show the bucking attitude they are entered into the classics when they are 3 year olds. At this age they have a live rider of a young age usually a teen or preteen. If they continue to have the bucking attitude they move up to the professional level when they are 4 year olds. AT NO TIME ARE CATTLE PRODS OR ANY PAINFUL STIMULUS USED.

Read here for true facts.

Excellent source of real facts by DVMs
http://www.prorodeo.com/pdfs/AnimalWelfare.pdf

http://rodeo.about.com/od/bullridingfaq/f/bullbucking.htm

http://rodeo.about.com/od/barebackfaq/f/bbhorsebucking.htm

[peggyleggy]

No they are not being forced to do anything. If a bull or horse makes up its mind not to do something, man cannot budge it. These bulls & horses are specifically bred to buck as the links to facts I provided state. Out of approx 500 calves produced out of bucking stock a breeder may---MAY get one that has the bucking attitude. The rest are beef cattle. The bull calves that show a bucking attitude are entered into the futurities when they are 2 year olds. A metal box is strapped to their back, the chute gate is opened & if the young bulls wants it will buck to get rid of the box. Most of them just walk out into the arena & stand looking around giving no attempt to buck. If the young bulls continue to show the bucking attitude they are entered into the classics when they are 3 year olds. At this age they have a live rider of a young age usually a teen or preteen. If they continue to have the bucking attitude they move up to the professional level when they are 4 year olds. AT NO TIME ARE CATTLE PRODS OR ANY PAINFUL STIMULUS USED.

Read here for true facts.

Excellent source of real facts by DVMs
http://www.prorodeo.com/pdfs/AnimalWelfare.pdf

http://rodeo.about.com/od/bullridingfaq/f/bullbucking.htm

http://rodeo.about.com/od/barebackfaq/f/bbhorsebucking.htm

Are you telling me that animals that are roped and wrestled to the ground and tied up are willing "performers"? They don't have to be subjected to this if they don't want to be? I see what I see and I don't see a choice.

I also have read up on rodeo clowns and their purpose. If these clowns are to detract a rider from being charged by the animal sounds to me like the animal has been antagonized to the point of retaliation.

You can give me all the links you choose and I am still going to see animal abuse for entertainment. IMO

[Citygirl]

This has been a subject here before..the video's are horrible to watch..some I have to click off early on and can't even watch the whole thing..
How anyone can justify this inhumane treatment of all these animals is just unbelievable..
It seems the defenders are the same 1 or 2 people over and over..the majority of us are appalled and rightly so.

[warhorse46]

Are you telling me that animals that are roped and wrestled to the ground and tied up are willing "performers"? They don't have to be subjected to this if they don't want to be? I see what I see and I don't see a choice.

I also have read up on rodeo clowns and their purpose. If these clowns are to detract a rider from being charged by the animal sounds to me like the animal has been antagonized to the point of retaliation.

You can give me all the links you choose and I am still going to see animal abuse for entertainment. IMO



<<<You can give me all the links you choose and I am still going to see animal abuse for entertainment. >>>I think this statement proves the saying in my location.
BTW they are not rodeo clowns, they are bull fighters. Rodeo clown is an antiquated title that has not been in use for many years. More proof you do not know what you are talking about, IMO. Even more proof of your lack of knowledge is the fact that bulls will charge people (or other bulls or horses or hogs, etc) even when out in pastures never having been in or near a rodeo.

[warhorse46]

It's concerning to me when it's a watchdog group against a circus it's fine with some but when it's a watchdog group against a rodeo it propaganda and don't believe anything they say. You will never convince me that a horse or bull likes getting "spurred" basically kicked with a hard round metal wheel blunt or not with a flank strap attached to them. I don't care if you say you have 100 years experience and 1000 links. The circus is being shown hitting lions and tigers and elephants on the noses and such how is this different than kicking the hell out of a horse or bull for 8 secs while a rider tries to stay on his back? Abuse is abuse IMO! Can't change it. No matter what the industry.

And the excuse that they a bred for bucking???? Nope not buying that one either....dog fighters and cock fighters do the same thing. Breed their animals for that too.:thumbdown:


<<< I don't care if you say you have 100 years experience and 1000 links>>> Proving the saying in my location IMO.

[angellaw]

I swear I learn something new here every time I pop around..very interesting info you guys...thanks!

[BorderCollieMom]

Somewhere amongst these posts, the elephants were lost.....again.:(

[warhorse46]

Somewhere amongst these posts, the elephants were lost.....again.:(


That is true & I apologize for my part in derailing the thread.

[Jay]

First, let it be clear that I am NOT in any way a Peta supporter or whatever....except where it comes to abuse cases like these circus ones.

I just saw their "new" Ringling Bros. hidden camera video. I dont think it was taken very long ago. Honestly, I was boo hooing and didnt even read the article.



I was looking at PETA'S website about the Elephants. Check this story out. SICK!!!


http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/08/bunnies_drowned.php

[Jay]

I found a local news story. She drowned them to put them out of thier misery? How humanitarian!

''She thought it was in the best interest of the rabbits,'' he said because they had suffered injuries inflicted upon themselves".

Why post it on facebook with a smile then??




http://www.ohio.com/news/top_stories/52525812.html