8/1 ~ 8/2

[Pattycake]

Michael out danced his doubters. He out sang his cynics .
He taught love and preached hope. He broke color barriers as the first black artist to have a video played on mtv.
He sang " It Don't Matter If You're Black or White' and " Heal The World'.
A precious spirit..Gone too soon.

[who_is_it]

<snipped>

I read about the "pills in Stomach"...I am wondering if those pills may be an indicator that MJ did indeed pass hours earlier than the 911 call..Just another theory there.. Digestion slowed..then stopped after he ingested the pills..Diprivan on board for hours..

<snipped>



Hi,
want to add to your point he's been dead hours before the 911 call: Kai Chase said CM usually came to the kitchen to get MJ's juice but didn't on that day. I don't remember which time Kai Chase mentioned in the interview; could be she said 9:00 am. If he hadn't been dead already CM would have come down imo.

[who_is_it]

Michael out danced his doubters. He out sang his cynics .
He taught love and preached hope. He broke color barriers as the first black artist to have a video played on mtv.
He sang " It Don't Matter If You're Black or White' and " Heal The World'.
A precious spirit..Gone too soon.

And he sang about what he suffered from in "tabloid junkie", "money", "privacy". Most people didn't listen. Me not, either.

[Zenyatta]

Good morning, everyone!

Thanks Athena for all the informative links. I found this one particularly interesting.

So do you think Murray may have been administering Demerol along with the Diprivan?

imo

Good morning GentleBreeze,

IMO Dr. Murray wasn't administering the two drugs simultaneously. Would serve no purpose as Demerol would have no affect on Michael when he already unconscious due to Diprivan.

The links Athena provided (thanks Athena!) explain how morphine is administered with Diprivan as an analgesic to alleviate pain associated with major surgery.

My question has been whether or not Michael was using Demerol during his waking hours, possibly to relieve any pain associated with all those rehearsals, and how that may have interacted with the Diprivan use.

Last night's Dateline was really good. I can't find a transcript posted yet, but one of the experts said exactly what I was saying yesterday. That if it's a combination of drugs that killed Jackson, and Murray contends that he didn't know Jackson was receiving the other drugs (i.e. Demerol) that it will make it more difficult to pin this whole thing on Murray. imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Hi,
want to add to your point he's been dead hours before the 911 call: Kai Chase said CM usually came to the kitchen to get MJ's juice but didn't on that day. I don't remember which time Kai Chase mentioned in the interview; could be she said 9:00 am. If he hadn't been dead already CM would have come down imo.


It's just a feeling, or sense..but I think Kai..knew the routine, and this morning was anything BUT routine ( especially heindsight)..and even she said something about "maybe Dr. Murray Slept in"...I get the feeling he did fall asleep..found MJ DEAD..and spent the rest of the morning trying to clean up, pack away (hid things in closet), called his office..then set in motion all the chaos..It must have been total chaos..Now, IF all this is true..then Dr. M. knew then just what trouble he was in..I dont believe for a minute he didnt realize what he was going was "High Risk"...He gambled..and lost..unfortunately MJ lost the most!!

LMS:ohmy:

[who_is_it]

I question the motives and actions of the parents, (mother) who set out to get her child introduced to MJ, coached her child and taught him how to lie...under oath, taught him how to conspire, to extort the person who opened his heart and home, and paid for his cancer treatments... to bring him down...destroy him, purely for financial gain. And when that didn't work, she committed welfare fraud instead.

<snipped>



Just to be precise: The didn't commit welfare fraud after the trial but before.

Unlike you I not only question the motives. I condemn them. It's beyond my imagination how someone else could be so cruel, ruthless and torture a person to this extent.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Here's a link to MJ using his own son's name to obtain drugs...allegedly.

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20295074,00.html

I read that TDT...just reading all those names/alias's makes me dizzy..There is something fundamentally wrong with any system that can get manipulated like this..MJ and his prescribing phyicians had a proverbial smorgasboard of names to chose from when wanting to get drugs funneled to the "addict"...I also wonder how many pharmacies were involved too..I'll just bet there are going to be more rules put in place to ensure a script is going to the right party in future...

To my knowledge, I do think there are tracking efforts..Dr.'s have a ID#
which are attached to every perscription...at least up here they do..I am sure they could get a record of a perscriptions filled by any Doctor for any given time period...No wonder DEA got involved early on..

Anyway, MJ and his enablers have spent years creating smoke screens and avoiding detection of abuses...Dont think this is a "One Off"..as we already know using ficticious names for celebrities is an excuse to protect the "Star"..Right???? or maybe just an easy way to supply the demand by those stars...Hummm

LMS

[Zenyatta]

I agree legally yes, that would make it hard to pin on Dr. Murray. However, what I can't wrap my head around...*I* knew Michael Jackson had a Demerol addiction...so why the heck didn't Dr. Murray? imo

I have no idea. Did Michael convince Dr. Murray that he had replaced Demerol with Diprivan?

Or was Murray giving Demerol too? What treatment was Dr. Klein providing?

IIRC, one of those links regarding what was taken from Murray's storage facility said one of the women admitted taking out of a box of used needles. Wonder what those would show?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I have no idea. Did Michael convince Dr. Murray that he had replaced Demerol with Diprivan?

Or was Murray giving Demerol too? What treatment was Dr. Klein providing?

IIRC, one of those links regarding what was taken from Murray's storage facility said one of the women admitted taking out of a box of used needles. Wonder what those would show?

You know, I read that too about removing "Used Needles'..I cant believe anyone would put into storage any biohazard materials like this..there are rules for disposal for all "Biohazardous" materials..and storing in a "Storage Unit" isnt one of them?? I tend to believe this is a tall tale..not so sure a medical facility would store things like that..

LMS:huh:

[Zenyatta]

You know, I read that too about removing "Used Needles'..I cant believe anyone would put into storage any biohazard materials like this..there are rules for disposal for all "Biohazardous" materials..and storing in a "Storage Unit" isnt one of them?? I tend to believe this is a tall tale..not so sure a medical facility would store things like that..

LMS:huh:

Oh, but Lynda, they were "just moving things around." :laugh:

Lynda and TDT, I looked up the link because I wanted to make sure I remembered it correctly:

Dr. Murray's Employees Tell Different Stories
July 30, 2009

http://www.tmz.com/page/3/

//snip//
"But Wednesday -- outside Dr. Murray's Houston office -- LaQuanda told us she stayed in the office the day Jackson died and did not go to the storage facility. She says her sister went and retrieved one bio-hazardous box -- filled with used needles. She says Dr. Murray did not call and direct either of them to go to the storage facility. As for why they would pick up a box of used needles and take it back to the office, LaQuanda says they were just moving things around in the office."
//snip//

[who_is_it]

What I find most alarming is the unwillingness of some to recognise that Michael Jackson obviously SUFFERED from severe mental illness and as a result became a drug addict. When I read excuse after excuse for his behavior...........I find it all the more tragic.

all in my opinion.

I can't join the discussion any longer because I have to go on errands. Therefore just a short reply:

I agree that probably the result of his suffering was drug addiction. I wouldn't call it a "mental illness" per se. Psychology differs between "endogenous" and "exogenous depression". Exogenuous depressions have a cause.... and probably most other kind of mental illnesses could be "endogenous" or "exogenous". If someone experiences such horrific things like MJ I don't wonder.

I think he had somehow a child like mind because he believed others just to be good. An ingenious child like mind could be something quite precious imo. Most people lose it after disappointment and suffering in their lives.

[Zenyatta]

What I find most alarming is the unwillingness of some to recognise that Michael Jackson obviously SUFFERED from severe mental illness and as a result became a drug addict. When I read excuse after excuse for his behavior...........I find it all the more tragic.

all in my opinion.

Which started first -- moodswings or self-medication?

I have to admit when I saw a LKL episode in which Deepak Chopra described how Michael said he had to stay up all night and wait the song lyrics to come to him from the higher power (or some such) or else the songs would be "given to someone else," the first thing I thought of was mania. As in bipolar. imo.

[Zenyatta]

I can't join the discussion any longer because I have to go on errands. Therefore just a short reply:

I agree that probably the result of his suffering was drug addiction. I wouldn't call it a "mental illness" per se. Psychology differs between "endogenous" and "exogenous depression". Exogenuous depressions have a cause.... and probably most other kind of mental illnesses could be "endogenous" or "exogenous". If someone experiences such horrific things like MJ I don't wonder.

I think he had somehow a child like mind because he believed others just to be good. An ingenious child like mind could be something quite precious imo. Most people lose it after disappointment and suffering in their lives.

Hi who_is_it,

Point taken. But because Michael was such a precocious child, possibly a prodigy, and became what hail as a "musical genius," I can't help but compare him to other creative geniuses who have dealt with the double edged sword of creative brilliance/madness.

Somewhat O/T, but an excellent book on the subject:

Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament

[legalmania]

Good morning, everyone!

Thanks Athena for all the informative links. I found this one particularly interesting.

So do you think Murray may have been administering Demerol along with the Diprivan?
imo


It is only reckless not to have an EKG available not required.
Dr. Murray only admits to administering propofol here is the article:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/28/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-died-lapd-/

[daniel green]

-31-2009, 11:45 PM
TooDarnTired
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 482

Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleBreeze
Well I did just read this.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Michael...7938918&page=1

The Los Angeles police were told that Jackson received a Demerol injection one hour before his death, according to a senior law enforcement official. Paramedics at the Los Angeles hospital where Jackson died Thursday, according to the British tabloid the Sun, said the star's breathing got "slower and slower until it stopped."

I hadn't heard about the receiving of a Demeral injection. Is CM insane or what?????????

imo
from the link:

"In 2002, Jackson was ordered to undergo a medical examination after he failed to show up in a California court room in a trial over breach of contract because the pop star said he had a spider bite.

"He had the IV stuff back then," said Schaffel, "It wasn't a spider bite. It was an IV he pulled out his leg. The needle broke off."

Oh, ugh. What a wreck of an infection from an injection site. Like the one that ANS had before she died?

No wonder MJ had antibiotics in his stash of drugs (the ones that have been linked here before, found at NV)

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Oh, but Lynda, they were "just moving things around." :laugh:

Lynda and TDT, I looked up the link because I wanted to make sure I remembered it correctly:

Dr. Murray's Employees Tell Different Stories
July 30, 2009

http://www.tmz.com/page/3/

//snip//
"But Wednesday -- outside Dr. Murray's Houston office -- LaQuanda told us she stayed in the office the day Jackson died and did not go to the storage facility. She says her sister went and retrieved one bio-hazardous box -- filled with used needles. She says Dr. Murray did not call and direct either of them to go to the storage facility. As for why they would pick up a box of used needles and take it back to the office, LaQuanda says they were just moving things around in the office."
//snip//

OhhhhhYaaa..I also think these two sisters have no clue about how "Used Needles" are maintained before disposal...First they are NOT put into boxes or anything else than can be breached or punctured for sharp objects..aka scalples, needles, broken glass..etc..They are always place in a thick plastic container that has to be sealed when full..and unable to be reopened..or else in the case of laypeople..i.e. diabetics in a home enviornment, they are placed in either a glass jar, or coffee can, then taped up and brought to facility for disposal...Carton boxes???dont think this will fly..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharps_container

Proper use of a sharps container includes pick up by or delivery to an approved "red bag" or medical waste treatment site. In addition to this pre-existing safety measure, all U.S. medical and educational staff are federally required to be tested on their knowledge of bloodborne pathogens.

The most common sharps containers (red plastic in the US, yellow plastic elsewhere) were first developed in 1979 when Frontier Plastics Ltd of South Wales in the UK recognized the need for a purpose designed container for the safe disposal of clinical sharps - developing the original Sharpsafe container which was first marketed in 1980.

During the last ten years, increased worldwide focus on safety and environmental impact has led to several positive government mandates being issued regarding engineered medical device standards and the reduction of clinical waste output from health facilities. This has resulted in a move toward reusable containers with built-in safety devices such as trays and locking devices. An example of this type is the Sharpsmart system, developed by Daniels Sharpsmart in 1986 and now used around the world.

LMS

[daniel green]

I agree legally yes, that would make it hard to pin on Dr. Murray. However, what I can't wrap my head around...*I* knew Michael Jackson had a Demerol addiction...so why the heck didn't Dr. Murray? imo

No kidding, TDT.

[daniel green]

Good morning GentleBreeze,

IMO Dr. Murray wasn't administering the two drugs simultaneously. Would serve no purpose as Demerol would have no affect on Michael when he already unconscious due to Diprivan.

snipped

Exactly, Zen.

[legalmania]

Good Morning! Quite the convo that went on last night...I am glade you brought over all that info on the use of Diprivam, Athena...It seems legalmania was parsing words..where "Medical Facility" was concerned...LOL..

As your posts point out..this drug is only safe to administer in a "Surgical Suite"..and the equipment required is listed....and further to that..IF Dr. Murray had of had the PROPER equipment available..then MJ would have been supported until the EMT's got there..thats of course if Dr. M. was capable to perform all those procedures, by himslef with no other hands to assist him???

I read about the "pills in Stomach"...I am wondering if those pills may be an indicator that MJ did indeed pass hours earlier than the 911 call..Just another theory there.. Digestion slowed..then stopped after he ingested the pills..Diprivan on board for hours..

Man, I am getting itchy to find out the final analysis of his tox screen, and hear how all the pieces fit in the puzzle we have been trying to figure out!!

LMS

Anyway~~

I have yet to find anyone who can give me a definition of medical facility. Harvey Levin said something about Dr. Murray having a medical facility in his room where Michael died. That's is all that I said.

[daniel green]

Here's a link to MJ using his own son's name to obtain drugs...allegedly.

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20295074,00.html

This must be yet another example of that good parenting.

[GentleBreeze]

Good morning GentleBreeze,

IMO Dr. Murray wasn't administering the two drugs simultaneously. Would serve no purpose as Demerol would have no affect on Michael when he already unconscious due to Diprivan.

The links Athena provided (thanks Athena!) explain how morphine is administered with Diprivan as an analgesic to alleviate pain associated with major surgery.

My question has been whether or not Michael was using Demerol during his waking hours, possibly to relieve any pain associated with all those rehearsals, and how that may have interacted with the Diprivan use.

Last night's Dateline was really good. I can't find a transcript posted yet, but one of the experts said exactly what I was saying yesterday. That if it's a combination of drugs that killed Jackson, and Murray contends that he didn't know Jackson was receiving the other drugs (i.e. Demerol) that it will make it more difficult to pin this whole thing on Murray. imo

If he tries to do this and he certainly may then I am sure the ME can tell how long before he died that he had consumed any other medication, cant they? If it is in the range of when Murray arrives (9 or 9:30 ish in the evening and between the time that they think he actually expired then that imo puts Murray right back in the boiling pot. It has been said that Murray also was accompanying MJ to rehearsals so on the day before he died he may have been with him even longer and then came back to the home once it was over.

I am troubled somewhat that only two half dissolved pills were found in his stomach. Frankly I expected more. Didn't one of the doctors he contacted give him two prescriptions for sleep aide?

The thing that will be interesting to see is if the Demerol in itself would have caused death or whether the diprivan was the sole culprit that made him have cardiac arrest.

imo

[daniel green]

snipped

I think he had somehow a child like mind because he believed others just to be good. .

I find that school of thinking terribly illogical.

And, he thought everyone was bad and was after him. But a child-like mind?

[Zenyatta]

I think it was much more complex than that. The term "alienation of the existential self" come to mind. He never formed a whole complete identity, he did get trapped mentally and never fully developed in some areas beyond pre-adolescence.

I think he suffered an eating disorder, a form of disorder, some body dysmorphic disorder and a form of OCD but not in a traditional way...more like a kid in a candy shop with a hundred dollar bill stuffed in his pocket way. all in my opinion.


Good morning TooDarnTired,

No doubt! But I think I'm too darn tired to get into any discussion about the existential self, which is probably way over my head anyway :laugh:

[daniel green]

snipped
I am troubled somewhat that only two half dissolved pills were found in his stomach. Frankly I expected more. snippedo

Where does the 2 pills in stomach come from? I see that posted here often but have no idea where it came from.

TIA

[daniel green]

Good morning TooDarnTired,

No doubt! But I think I'm too darn tired to get into any discussion about the existential self, which is probably way over my head anyway :laugh:

I am so not up for existentialism this early in the afternoon. Sartre, anyone?

[Zenyatta]

If he tries to do this and he certainly may then I am sure the ME can tell how long before he died that he had consumed any other medication, cant they? If it is in the range of when Murray arrives (9 or 9:30 ish in the evening and between the time that they think he actually expired then that imo puts Murray right back in the boiling pot. It has been said that Murray also was accompanying MJ to rehearsals so on the day before he died he may have been with him even longer and then came back to the home once it was over.

I am troubled somewhat that only two half dissolved pills were found in his stomach. Frankly I expected more. Didn't one of the doctors he contacted give him two prescriptions for sleep aide?

The thing that will be interesting to see is if the Demerol in itself would have caused death or whether the diprivan was the sole culprit that made him have cardiac arrest.

imo

I have no idea about the accuracy of toxicology tests to determine exactly when drugs are administered.

Your last statement is what I've been turning over and over in my mind for days, and what I hope can be proven definitively by the experts working on the case.

[daniel green]

OhhhhhYaaa..I also think these two sisters have no clue about how "Used Needles" are maintained before disposal...First they are NOT put into boxes or anything else than can be breached or punctured for sharp objects..aka scalples, needles, broken glass..etc..snipped

In American docs' offices, used needles are put in special containers. Then those containers are taken away.

The containers are unable to be opened and are made of tough plastic that keeps the needles from puncturing.

So, yeah, they can be moved as these women allege.

[daniel green]

snipped
I think he suffered an eating disorder, body dysmorphic disorder and a form of OCD but not in a traditional way...more like a kid in a candy shop with a hundred dollar bill stuffed in his pocket way. all in my opinion.

And addiction.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I have yet to find anyone who can give me a definition of medical facility. Harvey Levin said something about Dr. Murray having a medical facility in his room where Michael died. That's is all that I said.


legalmania..I looked up the term "Medical Facility" and it lists a whole host of examples..and you chose such facilities depending on what service is being offered....It has to be obvious..and medical facility could be considered..if you have a phyician on site, and they have maybe a stethoscope, BP machine, Otoscope..and maybe a cupboard full of sample drugs...oh ya..maybe a desk, chair and phone....Now think about it..would you want to be aneasthetized in that enviornment??.. Of course not..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_facility

Medical facility
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Hartford Hospital in Hartford, Connecticut. A hospital is one common type of medical facility.
An eye, ear, nose, and throat clinic in Durham, North Carolina, illustrating a common smaller facility.A medical facility is, in general, any location at which medicine is practiced regularly. Medical facilities range from small clinics and doctor's offices to urgent care centers and large hospitals with elaborate emergency rooms and trauma centers. The number and quality of medical facilities in a country or region is one common measure of that area's prosperity and quality of life. In many countries, medical facilities are regulated to some extent by law; licensing by a regulatory agency is often required before a facility may open for business. Medical facilities may be owned and operated by for-profit businesses, non-profit organizations, governments, and in some cases by individuals, with proportions varying by country.


So if TMZ wishes to consider Dr. M.bedroom as a "Medical facility"..well, I think it was a term used loosely..If you read about this Profolol..it is not a local aneasthetic.. read up thread that explains it..but one that required, and is mandated to have all the support drugs, equipment right there..not on the other end of a 911 call...Dr. M. didnt even have airways, and ambu bad there to breath for MJ until EMT's got there...

IV bags, IV pole, Oxygentanks do not meet the criteria for equipment necessary when administering this drug..Not even close!!

LMS:wink:

[legalmania]

OhhhhhYaaa..I also think these two sisters have no clue about how "Used Needles" are maintained before disposal...First they are NOT put into boxes or anything else than can be breached or punctured for sharp objects..aka scalples, needles, broken glass..etc..They are always place in a thick plastic container that has to be sealed when full..and unable to be reopened..or else in the case of laypeople..i.e. diabetics in a home enviornment, they are placed in either a glass jar, or coffee can, then taped up and brought to facility for disposal...Carton boxes???dont think this will fly..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharps_container

Proper use of a sharps container includes pick up by or delivery to an approved "red bag" or medical waste treatment site. In addition to this pre-existing safety measure, all U.S. medical and educational staff are federally required to be tested on their knowledge of bloodborne pathogens.

The most common sharps containers (red plastic in the US, yellow plastic elsewhere) were first developed in 1979 when Frontier Plastics Ltd of South Wales in the UK recognized the need for a purpose designed container for the safe disposal of clinical sharps - developing the original Sharpsafe container which was first marketed in 1980.

During the last ten years, increased worldwide focus on safety and environmental impact has led to several positive government mandates being issued regarding engineered medical device standards and the reduction of clinical waste output from health facilities. This has resulted in a move toward reusable containers with built-in safety devices such as trays and locking devices. An example of this type is the Sharpsmart system, developed by Daniels Sharpsmart in 1986 and now used around the world.

LMS

That's strange because my roommate had a blood clot and he had to inject himself daily. This was in 1995. The medication came in a box with the medicine in the needle. When he was done with them he would put the use needles in another box, he just put the lids on. They were taped together, when he got them. The nurse would come every couple of weeks to pick up the box.

[daniel green]

and if ya live near a New Jersey beach...you can find them washed up on the shore............

Try walking around some govt housing "yards."

[GentleBreeze]

Here's a link to MJ using his own son's name to obtain drugs...allegedly.

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20295074,00.html

:biggrin:I see you but the "allegedly" part in.

Finding prescriptions for Prince in his own home doesn't seem to me to be unusual.

Prince is 12 years old. I highly doubt, even though I do think they were well cared for, that he never had a bad cold, virus, ear or throat infection. There were antibiotics found in the home and iirc other benign drugs that weren't narcotics.

So I think the media just likes to spin the "allegedly" wheel around and around!:biggrin: Sort of like "Ripley's Believe It or Not" lol

imo

[Zenyatta]

I am so not up for existentialism this early in the afternoon. Sartre, anyone?

LOL. House rule: No Nietzsche until noon.

My book link didn't work. If anyone is interested, the book, "Touched with Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artist's Temperament," is by Kay Redfield Jamison. It's available via Amazon.com and an excellent description can be found there.

Be back later. :seeya:

[daniel green]

That's strange because my roommate had a blood clot and he had to inject himself daily. This was in 1995. The medication came in a box with the medicine in the needle. When he was done with them he would put the use needles in another box, he just put the lids on. They were taped together, when he got them. The nurse would come every couple of weeks to pick up the box.

Just like with anyone who has to inject him/herself or a a fam member, be it for diabetes or something like infertility. The containers are sold at Walmart and other pharmacies. The hard red plastic boxes that you put the used syrynge/needles in and then put that in your garbage, so no sanitation worker gets pricked by an old needle.

Like this one:

http://xeniainstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/needle2.jpg

[daniel green]

LOL. House rule: No Nietsche until noon.

My book link didn't work. If anyone is interested, the book, "Touched with Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artist's Temperament," is by Kay Redfield Jamison. It's available via Amazon.com and an excellent description can be found there.

Be back later. :seeya:

I love Dr Jamison, and have read her books. Absolutely fascinating. I thought the Unquiet Mind was wonderful.

We are slackers here at my house. War and Peace discussions start at high tea.

[daniel green]

I don't believe the search warrant would have included his child's name if only an antibiotic was found to be in his name. IMO
snipped!

Of course not.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

That's strange because my roommate had a blood clot and he had to inject himself daily. This was in 1995. The medication came in a box with the medicine in the needle. When he was done with them he would put the use needles in another box, he just put the lids on. They were taped together, when he got them. The nurse would come every couple of weeks to pick up the box.

All I can say what was done with your room mate was not safe, or acceptable..think about it..anyone could have come in and gotten a neddle stick easily..Needle, syringes do come in boxes unopened, in sterile wrap..but when opened and used, must be place into a closed container, that cannot be breached or punctures...Coffee Cans are the most common, but I have seen people bring in used needles and syringes in big pickle jars tooo:laugh:

What can I say, some just dont follow the rules set out ..that are only to protect others from being infected by someone elses "Biohazard" waste..But seems...those rules are not followed across the board..which could lead to negligent cases IF someone would be exposed due to inappropriate storage of "Biohazard Waste"..

LMS:glare:

[legalmania]

Just like with anyone who has to inject him/herself or a a fam member, be it for diabetes or something like infertility. The containers are sold at Walmart and other pharmacies. The hard red plastic boxes that you put the used syrynge/needles in and then put that in your garbage, so no sanitation worker gets pricked by an old needle.

Like this one:

http://xeniainstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/needle2.jpg

Well that's the way this insurance company did it. What do you think I'm making this up? If somebody got stabbed then maybe they should change their policy.

[GentleBreeze]

I have no idea about the accuracy of toxicology tests to determine exactly when drugs are administered.

Your last statement is what I've been turning over and over in my mind for days, and what I hope can be proven definitively by the experts working on the case.

It seems to me if they have the strength of the drug when it is first taken and the range of what it was at death they could extrapolate backwards to determine how long it had been since he took any particular drug.



imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Well that's the way this insurance company did it. What do you think I'm making this up? If somebody got stabbed then maybe they should change their policy.


I certainly dont think you are making this up..and unfortunately this goes on even today..yet I did note your scenerio was in 1995...I'll just bet the Insurance Industry has changed their protocol/policy..Im willing to bet they have...or else they could be held responsible for their part in a negligent lawsuit if one of their Insured exposed a 3rd party to "Biohazards" because of their policy...Yike I got long winded there:laugh:

LMS

[Unperson1984]

Good morning all.

Bringing this over to respond to Unperson's ?





"For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Sedated patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, providing artificial ventilation, administering supplemental oxygen, and instituting cardiovascular resuscitation must be immediately available. Patients should be continuously monitored for early signs of hypotension, apnea, airway obstruction, and/or oxygen desaturation. These cardiorespiratory effects are more likely to occur following rapid bolus administration, especially in the elderly, debilitated, or ASA-PS III or IV patients.

http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm

Thanks Athena, that's very useful information. Do we know if Murray had an artificial ventilation method available?

[daniel green]

snipped...Coffee Cans are the most common, but I have seen people bring in used needles and syringes in big pickle jars tooo:laugh:

:

Coffee cans are unacceptable because of the plastic lids.

[daniel green]

aren't those left by drug addicts?

I am talking about medical waste that was improperly disposed of

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/new_jersey/090702_Medical_Waste_On_New_Jersey_Beach

this was from a dentist :

http://wcbstv.com/local/NJ.Beach.Closed.2.810970.html

Happens every year here...

Sorry, was blanking. Oh, yeah. Those are common.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't believe the search warrant would have included his child's name if only an antibiotic was found to be in his name. IMO

ANYTHING imo that has to do with MJ could be added to "Ripley's Believe It or Not."

O/T Thursday night we went to AC to the Ripley's Believe It or Not Museum...was my first time...was AMAZING!

Of course they would. They would have to list all names of meds taken.

After they gather the medicine is when they investigate to see if it was for MJ or his child. That gives them a reason to pour over Prince's medical file to see if there was other meds dispensed such as narcotics.

They take it all. Then they tie it together with a thorough investigation. Doesn't mean they assume it is an aka to get drugs.

The original RBION is in St. Augustine Florida I believe. It was spellbinding. I think it is an appropriate name for all media outlets.:biggrin:

imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Thanks Athena, that's very useful information. Do we know if Murray had an artificial ventilation method available?

Im not Athea...but from the description given..No..no airways, AmbuBag..never mind Endotracheal tubes, or ventilator...Just poor Dr. M. doing compression on MJ like pressing a sandwich.....Oh..ya he had an IV in place...but Oxygen tanks and masks dont do much good unless someone is breathing..not even sure Dr. M. was giving MJ "Mouth to Mouth"...

LMS:rolleyes:

PS..Up here we use the term "Ventilator" instead of "Respirator"

[daniel green]

While the coroner's report on what killed Michael Jackson has been delayed indefinitely, new evidence emerged that the singer shopped for a doctor who would give him the drug investigators suspect led to his death.

A doctor of Michael Jackson says he prescribed drugs to the alias Omar Arnold.

Dr. Allan Metzger, whose name appeared on a search warrant served this week, refused Jackson's request in April for the anesthetic propofol -- commonly known by the brand name Diprivan, Metzger's attorney said.

Investigators suspect another physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, gave the drug to Jackson in the 24 hours before he died, according to a source, who asked not to be named because the individual was not authorized to speak to the news media.

Metzger, who practices in West Hollywood, California, told Jackson during a visit to his Holmby Hills home that the drug was "dangerous and potentially life-threatening and could not be used outside of a hospital," attorney Harland Braun said.

Metzger's medical records for Jackson, whom he treated until 2003, have been given to the coroner, Braun said.

He said Metzger prescribed drugs for Jackson under the alias Omar Arnold and Michael Jackson, which was not illegal since he used both names together. The doctor did that because he thought it was "his duty to protect the privacy" of his patient, Braun said.

Omar Arnold is one of 19 aliases listed in the warrant used by Los Angeles police and federal drug agents Tuesday to search the Las Vegas, Nevada, office and home of Murray, a Texas-based cardiologist.

The same warrant, signed by a Las Vegas judge, implied that investigators suspected Jackson was a drug addict.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/07/31/jackson.coroners.report/

[GentleBreeze]

That is certainly possible - but I believe Prince Michael's name was mentioned among the aliases. However, like you said it could have been a legit scipt for Prince as I would think they just looked at all of the prescriptions billed to MJ and they will need to sort them all out. JMO

Right, the police had probable cause to take all prescription medicines that they may find in his home which they did but it does not mean that Prince's medication will turnout to be an alias. That is determined once the investigation is done.

If any of the other help had to have medications during their time there and it was in the home at the time then LE would have taken it in too.

imo

[Unperson1984]

In American docs' offices, used needles are put in special containers. Then those containers are taken away.

The containers are unable to be opened and are made of tough plastic that keeps the needles from puncturing.

So, yeah, they can be moved as these women allege.

I don't know about Texas, but in California there is a special company that picks up Haz Mat waste from doctors offices. Perhaps Dr Murray hasn't paid the bill lately.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't know about Texas, but in California there is a special company that picks up Haz Mat waste from doctors offices. Perhaps Dr Murray hasn't paid the bill lately.



..........................:laugh:

LMS

[daniel green]

MJ's death?


Allan Metzger, a lupus specialist reprimanded for allegedly writing false prescriptions for Janet Jackson years ago, has also had his medical records involving Michael Jackson subpoenaed. CNN reported Friday
evening that Dr. Allan Metzger had voluntarily turned over his records to the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office. But what has Janet Jackson's doctor got to do with Michael Jackson? As it turns out, quite a lot, actually, considering that Dr. Allan Metzger treated Michael Jackson, went on tour with Jackson, and videotaped Jackson's wedding to Debbie Rowe.

When TMZ broke their part of the Allan Metzger story, they said that the doctor would not comment on whether he was doing the same for Michael what he did for Janet that got him an official reprimand from the Medical Board of California in September 2000. However, TMZ reported that one of the files supplied by Metzger's office was labeled Omar Arnold/Michael Jackson. TMZ also notes that using an alias is not illegal about using an alias as long as the individual's real name is also used.

But the alias might be used to link other parts of the investigation, such as tracking down the medications used by Michael Jackson, many of which were acquired using aliases

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2010908/michael_jacksons_doctors_janet_jacksons.html?cat=3 3

[legalmania]

All I can say what was done with your room mate was not safe, or acceptable..think about it..anyone could have come in and gotten a neddle stick easily..Needle, syringes do come in boxes unopened, in sterile wrap..but when opened and used, must be place into a closed container, that cannot be breached or punctures...Coffee Cans are the most common, but I have seen people bring in used needles and syringes in big pickle jars tooo:laugh:

What can I say, some just dont follow the rules set out ..that are only to protect others from being infected by someone elses "Biohazard" waste..But seems...those rules are not followed across the board..which could lead to negligent cases IF someone would be exposed due to inappropriate storage of "Biohazard Waste"..

LMS:glare:

Well they're a multi-billion dollar corporation, which is more money than you or I have so they must know what they're doing. With the lid on it it's really hard to penetrate a cardboard box. My roommate did get mersa when he was in the hospital. I'm a lot more afraid of nurses than I am of my roommate.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't know about Texas, but in California there is a special company that picks up Haz Mat waste from doctors offices. Perhaps Dr Murray hasn't paid the bill lately.

I looked up Texas..to see what their Haz Mat policy is for sharps..
http://medical-waste-removal.com/



MWR-MEDICAL WASTE REMOVAL is a licensed & dedicated provider of reliable, affordable disposal of medical waste, sharps & bio-hazard. MEDICAL WASTE REMOVAL maintains complete compliance with all medical waste regulations. MEDICAL WASTE REMOVAL provides Infectious Medical Waste Disposal, Sharps/ Used Needle Disposal, Biohazard Disposal, Regulated Waste disposal to Doctor's offices, clinics, surgical centers, dialysis centers, and the Crime, Death & Traums Scene Cleaning Industry. Our staff of professionals are courtious & uniformed to meet your needs. For Quotes or medical waste pick-up call MWR at 1-800-273-4490.

MEDICAL WASTE REMOVAL
1-800-273-4490
HTTP://WWW.MWREMOVAL.COM

LMS

[legalmania]

Right, the police had probable cause to take all prescription medicines that they may find in his home which they did but it does not mean that Prince's medication will turnout to be an alias. That is determined once the investigation is done.

If any of the other help had to have medications during their time there and it was in the home at the time then LE would have taken it in too.

imo

I don't understand how he was supposedly picking up all these medications, first of all you have to show ID, everybody knows what he looks like. How did he do it?

[daniel green]

snipped There were no reprimands or any negative comments about him either considering he is known to do celebrity exams for insurance purposes. JMO

That right there is the huge red flag.

Think Heath Ledger.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't understand how he was supposedly was picking up all these medications, first of all you have to show ID, everybody knows what he looks like. How did he do it?

It seems alot of the rules for perscription p/u was put aside ..\i also did read somewhere, the scripts for pain medications were called into pharmacies too..which is a no no...I also think that scripts were picked up by various peeps sent out to collect them..from various pharmacies..but it seems one in particular ( lawsuit for over $100,000.00 in unpaid account/settled) pharmacy was popular...hummmmwonder if they accepted some phonein scripts???

LMS

[legalmania]

Are you talking about MJ? :confused:


Yes, even if he had fake I.D. it would still be hard to do.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Yes, even if he had fake I.D. it would still be hard to do.


I really rather doubt MJ went to pickup his own perscriptions...can you imagine, the mayhem?...One of little perks of being a "Celebrity"...someone else goes in to get your drugs...

LMS:laugh:

[Ontario]

Good morning GentleBreeze,


Last night's Dateline was really good. I can't find a transcript posted yet, but one of the experts said exactly what I was saying yesterday. That if it's a combination of drugs that killed Jackson, and Murray contends that he didn't know Jackson was receiving the other drugs (i.e. Demerol) that it will make it more difficult to pin this whole thing on Murray. imo

I agree with you, he was still wrong doing what he did, but I also believe that Michael also took other pills, and had been for so very many years!!

I just wonder what kind of life his children had, it was reported that they never went to a Kid's Restaurant, had ice cream at an ice cream place, he kept them very isolated from the day to day things, no friend over at the house, home schooled, these children will need medical help to try to fit in to the "Worl" as we simple people call it.

I must say that I think the oldest son Prince I am sure took care of the other 2, becuase I do't think Michael really could on a day to day, also we have herad nothing from Grace the Nanny, she would have seen a lot. I do hope they change Blanket's Name, and he is so cute!!

[CinderL.]

It is only reckless not to have an EKG available not required.
Dr. Murray only admits to administering propofol here is the article:

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/28/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-died-lapd-/

I will tell you what my ER nurse friend told me weeks ago about administering Propofol in the ER. When they have to give Propofol to a patient, they are required to call the respiratory therapist to be on hand to monitor the patients breathing. They have the oxygen levels monitored constantly. They are required to check the patients vital signs every 5 seconds. There are three people with the patient at all times. They have the crash cart available in case they have to breath for the patient.
I really don't think Dr. Murray had any of that equipment on hand.

[legalmania]

ID for what?

I don't know where you live but I never showed ID to a pharmacist for a prescription. Anyone can bring in or pick up a prescription. It doesn't have to be the person for whom the prescription was written. :confused:

In addition - why would a celebrity megastar go to a pharmacy himself? He has staff to do that kind of thing.

imo

It's a law in most states when you pick up narcotics you must show I.D., like at my pharmacy they know me so I don't need I.D. As far as I know the pharmacy is suppose to give the prescription to the person who's name is on the script. Celebrity or not. He went shopping in other stores why not the pharmacy, is he to good.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't understand how he was supposedly picking up all these medications, first of all you have to show ID, everybody knows what he looks like. How did he do it?

It seems to me he had to have a go between. A gopher of some sort that went where the pharmacies knew them.:confused:

In my state ID doesn't have to be shown but they do have to sign and then return that slip back to the pharmacy before leaving.


imo

[legalmania]

I will tell you what my ER nurse friend told me weeks ago about administering Propofol in the ER. When they have to give Propofol to a patient, they are required to call the respiratory therapist to be on hand to monitor the patients breathing. They have the oxygen levels monitored constantly. They are required to check the patients vital signs every 5 seconds. There are three people with the patient at all times. They have the crash cart available in case they have to breath for the patient.
I really don't think Dr. Murray had any of that equipment on hand.

Well according to this article you can administer it yourself. It's a sedative, I'm not playing it down, but only 3 people have died from self medicating oh make that 4. It is not even been scheduled by the DEA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol

[Ontario]

It's a law in most states when you pick up narcotics you must show I.D., like at my pharmacy they know me so I don't need I.D. As far as I know the pharmacy is suppose to give the prescription to the person who's name is on the script. Celebrity or not. He went shopping in other stores why not the pharmacy, is he to good.

Here in Ontario, anyone can go and p/u scripts for me and we nevre show any ID.

As for Michael thinking that he was too good, I never heard any of that after all these years, I just do not think like anyone that had a drug problem, you would be going to get them yourself, especially if you have others to do it for you, there is nothing wrong with that.

Rememeber Anna she had them shipped to a Post Office when she was living in the islands, and lovely Mr. Howard went and picked up the pills.

What is going on with Mr. Howard, here Iin Canada we never hear anything about him!!

[daniel green]

=legalmania;13329530]It's a law in most states when you pick up narcotics you must show I.D., like at my pharmacy they know me so I don't need I.D snipped

There is no law like that and pharmacies do not ask for ID when picking up any script.

And MJ had scripts in at least 19 aliases, so the ID is just silly, frankly.

[daniel green]

Celebrities have staff for that kind of thing.

Heck - I have people pick up my prescriptions sometimes.

imo

And lots of pharmacies make deliveries.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Well according to this article you can administer it yourself. It's a sedative, I'm not playing it down, but only 3 people have died from self medicating oh make that 4. It is not even been scheduled by the DEA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol

Did you happen to notice just who those people were who died?...Yep..only Medical persons..as this drug is only availbel to medical people..it is not a perscription med that is dispensed by pharmacy in public...only availabe to Surgical Units within a Medical Facility...So you are right..it wasnt considered a "Controlled" med..however..I think from this day forth it will be..now that the public know about it!!

BTW..it is not a sedative..like ativan, or ambien or sleeping aid...but is a IV only administered drug that hits the brain within 40 seconds..to render UNCONSCIOUS..

Just as aside..I did read one story about a women murdered using this drug..by her (X)? boyfriend Medical Technician...Not sure if it has even gone to court yet...I posted a link to it weeks ago tho..

LMS

[CinderL.]

Yes, even if he had fake I.D. it would still be hard to do.

I never show ID when picking up prescriptions. I have picked up prescriptions for neighbors, my parents, etc. Never a problem. :confused:

[daniel green]

It's a sedative, I'm not playing it down, but only 3 people have died from self medicating oh make that 4. snippedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol

Nope. Not true.

[daniel green]

I never show ID when picking up prescriptions. I have picked up prescriptions for neighbors, my parents, etc. Never a problem. :confused:

Because the claim is not true and preposterous.

There are no state laws for showing ID for picking up a script, scheduled drug or not.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree with you, he was still wrong doing what he did, but I also believe that Michael also took other pills, and had been for so very many years!!

I just wonder what kind of life his children had, it was reported that they never went to a Kid's Restaurant, had ice cream at an ice cream place, he kept them very isolated from the day to day things, no friend over at the house, home schooled, these children will need medical help to try to fit in to the "Worl" as we simple people call it.

I must say that I think the oldest son Prince I am sure took care of the other 2, because I do't think Michael really could on a day to day, also we have herad nothing from Grace the Nanny, she would have seen a lot. I do hope they change Blanket's Name, and he is so cute!!

I am not sure many famous children ever really fit in with the world. Most of them are sheltered because of the constant harassment from the media hounding them if they do venture out. This is why even MJ couldn't live like an average person so his children also suffered that same fate due to their father being famous.

I think they had a rather normal life. Everyone and I mean everyone that has spoken out about these children have said they are very social, outgoing, kind and giving children who had a strong bond with their father and he did them.

MJ certainly is not the only superstar to have a Nanny that helps to raise their children. Most of them do but I do believe he spent many many treasured times with them while they were growing up and those are the memories they will always hold dear.

It is more the norm I think that the Nanny of such children who are being raised by the father does the nurturing and the daddy is just the fun guy to hang out with. That is even true of children raised by both mothers and fathers. The female's role is to nurture and the male's role is more to provide and support the child.

I tend to think some mom's get a little angst about that since they usually spend more hours with the children but then daddy can come in from work and kid around with them for a few minutes and the kids just think that daddy is the coolest thing ever.:smile:

imo

[CinderL.]

Because the claim is not true and preposterous.

There are no state laws for showing ID for picking up a script, scheduled drug or not.

Didn't think so. I sure have never had to show ID.

[who_is_it]

I find that school of thinking terribly illogical.

And, he thought everyone was bad and was after him. But a child-like mind?

There WERE enough people after him... or would you deny he was surrounded by unhonest people and leeches?

He was reclusive during his last years only (and before very open-hearted and trustful).

[legalmania]

Here in Ontario, anyone can go and p/u scripts for me and we nevre show any ID.

As for Michael thinking that he was too good, I never heard any of that after all these years, I just do not think like anyone that had a drug problem, you would be going to get them yourself, especially if you have others to do it for you, there is nothing wrong with that.

Rememeber Anna she had them shipped to a Post Office when she was living in the islands, and lovely Mr. Howard went and picked up the pills.

What is going on with Mr. Howard, here Iin Canada we never hear anything about him!!

I'm gonna pm you about something, but here is the statutes for FL and I'm sure it's the same in most states, because it's a federal as well as state law.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0893/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0893-%3ESection%2004#0893.04

[who_is_it]

Hi who_is_it,

Point taken. But because Michael was such a precocious child, possibly a prodigy, and became what hail as a "musical genius," I can't help but compare him to other creative geniuses who have dealt with the double edged sword of creative brilliance/madness.

Somewhat O/T, but an excellent book on the subject:

Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament

(Apart from all other things which happened in his life) I would agree that superstardome has taken its toll on him. I also wouldn't deny he probably suffered from delusions of grandeur and inferiority complexes at the same time.

[who_is_it]

<snipped>
Yep..only Medical persons..as this drug is only availbel to medical people..it is not a perscription med that is dispensed by pharmacy in public...only availabe to Surgical Units within a Medical Facility..

<snipped>



Did Dr. Murray's Houston office fulfill the criteria "sugercial unit within a medical facility"? -- Another poster brought up this topic yesterday. As I recall it was already discussed right after his death and his office does NOT fulfill the criteria but I'm not sure.

I ask because I would like to know if Dr. Murray himself could officially order the drug.

[legalmania]

There is no law like that and pharmacies do not ask for ID when picking up any script.

And MJ had scripts in at least 19 aliases, so the ID is just silly, frankly.


Your wrong, I just posted the law in Fl.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530242,00.html

[who_is_it]

I will tell you what my ER nurse friend told me weeks ago about administering Propofol in the ER. When they have to give Propofol to a patient, they are required to call the respiratory therapist to be on hand to monitor the patients breathing. They have the oxygen levels monitored constantly. They are required to check the patients vital signs every 5 seconds. There are three people with the patient at all times. They have the crash cart available in case they have to breath for the patient.
I really don't think Dr. Murray had any of that equipment on hand.

I've read on TMZ Dr. Murray didn't have a so called oximeter.

The fact that there are always several doctors in a surgery room (1 for anesthesia, 1 for the surgery) tells how intensely the anesthesized patient has to be observed imo.

[CinderL.]

-----------

Sorry bout that, Daniel.........but u r wrong.

Buzzzzzz I have picked up scripts for many people....never have I had to show ID, or was even asked who I was to the patient. :shrug:

[who_is_it]

<snipped>
I do hope they change Blanket's Name, and he is so cute!!

His official name is Prince Michael II.

I could imagine he always will be called "Blanket" but that doesn't necessarily mean people taunt him. It's just because they are used to the name. There are worse nick names than "Blanket" -- one of the worse and meaner names is "wacko jacko" imo.

[Zenyatta]

--------------
Oh geesh.......here we go again with the "genius" word. jmo

Good afternoon Buzzzzz,

LOL....I wondered how long before someone caught that. I tried so hard to word it carefully that I actually mangled the sentence and it did not come out as I intended, which is that "some considered him a musical genius."

Please let's not go there again :laugh:

[daniel green]

I'm gonna pm you about something, but here is the statutes for FL and I'm sure it's the same in most states, because it's a federal as well as state law.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0893/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0893-%3ESection%2004#0893.04

Doesn't say a thing about showing ID to pick up a script.

So, no.

[daniel green]

snipped

I think they had a rather normal life. snipped

What is normal about going out vith veils and/or masks??????

There was nothing normal about their lives.

[daniel green]

I cannot find a Federal Law stating that the patient has to sign for a controlled substance and I've been looking for quite a while.
snipped

There isn't one.

[daniel green]

NO!

NYS:

13. Is a pharmacy required to verify the identity of a person picking up a dispensed prescription for a controlled substance?
A. Yes. If the person is unknown to the pharmacy, he or she must present appropriate identification.

http://www.nysspa.org/eSeries/Customer/Source/private/QAsaboutOfficialRXProgram.pdf

Where is the NY law for this? TIA

[jaxback]

---------------------

Just because u have done it, it doesnt mean that its done like that all over. U couldnt do that where i live. and thats a fact. imo

You can do it where I live - which happens to be CA. And that's a fact. :smile:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

---------------------

Just because u have done it, it doesnt mean that its done like that all over. U couldnt do that where i live. and thats a fact. imo

Im wondering since there seems to be variable ways scripts have to be purchased..is that maybe some Pharmacy's have been audited..and maybe their records were deficient somehow..so have decided to impliment some sort of record keeping..especially where some medications are concerned..

I know up here..something as simple as "Cough/Cold Medications" normally over the counter stuff..have been moved behind the counter and have to be requested from the pharmacist...(no script necessary)..and quantities sold have limitations..I recall some of them have been used in manufacturing Meth in home-made labs...wish I could recall where I read that??..!!

LMS

[legalmania]

Nope. Not true.

It says on the first line it's used for anesthesia and sedation. Sedation means sedative.

[GentleBreeze]

What is normal about going out vith veils and/or masks??????

There was nothing normal about their lives.

That may be your opinion but I see them amazingly normal and grounded children. Especially having to live their lives as children of a famous entertainer.

They had lives. Not everyones life is just about getting out in the public. They played with other children, they had birthday parties, they celebrated Christmas, they watched movies, read books, danced, studied and enjoyed their lives imo.

DR said that she was the one that insisted on the veils to protect the children. I suppose that included the media bottom feeders shoving cameras in their faces if they were unmasked and printing them in tabloids.

imo

[legalmania]

Where is the NY law for this? TIA

Go to the NY statutes. I bet it's there under crimes.

[who_is_it]

What is normal about going out vith veils and/or masks??????

There was nothing normal about their lives.

Hypothetically: If I had known Michael Jackson I would have voluntarily worn a mask as well when out in public. I believe he feared the risk of kidnapping. But apart from it everybody who's photographed recognizably together with a celebrity could forget about private life in the future. The person is stalked, pressurized to give interviews, the media dig out the past. I just remember Victoria Prince and FedEx. Old school stories were dished to make her look a fool and sleazy.

[GentleBreeze]

There isn't one.

I know in my state I had to sign and return the stub to the pharmacy clerk when I picked up drugs for my husband. I never had to show any ID though.

imo

[legalmania]

Im wondering since there seems to be variable ways scripts have to be purchased..is that maybe some Pharmacy's have been audited..and maybe their records were deficient somehow..so have decided to impliment some sort of record keeping..especially where some medications are concerned..

I know up here..something as simple as "Cough/Cold Medications" normally over the counter stuff..have been moved behind the counter and have to be requested from the pharmacist...(no script necessary)..and quantities sold have limitations..I recall some of them have been used in manufacturing Meth in home-made labs...wish I could recall where I read that??..!!

LMS

I can verify it Lynda you can only have a few over the counter medicines with some drug in it used for meth. Again you must sign for it and show ID that your over the age of 18.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

It says on the first line it's used for anesthesia and sedation. Sedation means sedative.

Once again legalmania..you are parsing a word..Sedation to an Aneasthetist means a much different thing, than it does to the rest of the world...Sedation..hum..in an aneasthetic siutation mean sedate..or to put "Under"..to laypersons it means to "settle down" or calm down...Course if you would like to equate Aneasthetic with Sedation like the public thinks...you would be mislead...

LMS:laugh:

[vonna]

Hypothetically: If I had known Michael Jackson I would have voluntarily worn a mask as well when out in public. I believe he feared the risk of kidnapping. But apart from it everybody who's photographed recognizably together with a celebrity could forget about private life in the future. The person is stalked, pressurized to give interviews, the media dig out the past. I just remember Victoria Prince and FedEx. Old school stories were dished to make her look a fool and sleazy.

You don't think the silly masks caused more attention????

[Nic99]

Hypothetically: If I had known Michael Jackson I would have voluntarily worn a mask as well when out in public. I believe he feared the risk of kidnapping. But apart from it everybody who's photographed recognizably together with a celebrity could forget about private life in the future. The person is stalked, pressurized to give interviews, the media dig out the past. I just remember Victoria Prince and FedEx. Old school stories were dished to make her look a fool and sleazy.

Bolding your comment: yes it would be advisable for those that are with MJ to wear a mask if they wished to remain anonymous. I believe thats why the children wore masks for so long, because he was trying to protect them from the media frenzy, especially when he wasn't with them; there would be no way of them being recognised imo.

[jaxback]

-----------

ohhhhhhhhh CA. guess i'm not surprised then. jmo

Not surprised by what? I thought we were talking about MJ and whether he or his staff needed ID to pick up the RX's. You do know that MJ lived in CA, don't you?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Once again legalmania..you are parsing a word..Sedation to an Aneasthetist means a much different thing, than it does to the rest of the world...Sedation..hum..in an aneasthetic siutation mean sedate..or to put "Under"..to laypersons it means to "settle down" or calm down...Course if you would like to equate Aneasthetic with Sedation like the public thinks...you would be mislead...

LMS:laugh:
Sorry to quote myself..I found this link to show there are different levels of sedations...

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sedation


Usually procedures for conscious sedation do not require preoperative or pre-testing orders. Clinical situations for unconscious sedation typically involve eating and drinking protocols starting the day before the procedure.
The age and physical status of the patient is useful in determining sensitivity. A detailed past history, especially prior experiences with sedatives and other anesthetics is an important part of preparatory assessment. It is important to determine if there were any untoward side effects associated with a previous medication. Patient positioning is important to prevent blood pressure changes or nerve damage associated with abnormal position.

Unconscious Sedation would fall into the category of Diprivan/Profolol
because this med goes directly to that part of the brain to render someone Unconscious..comma like...not just relaxing the patient.

LMS

[who_is_it]

Bolding your comment: yes it would be advisable for those that are with MJ to wear a mask if they wished to remain anonymous. I believe thats why the children wore masks for so long, because he was trying to protect them from the media frenzy, especially when he wasn't with them; there would be no way of them being recognised imo.

Exactly. When without him they could move around like anybody else.

[who_is_it]

You don't think the silly masks caused more attention????

See my reply to Nic99.

[legalmania]

Once again legalmania..you are parsing a word..Sedation to an Anaesthetist means a much different thing, than it does to the rest of the world...Sedation..hum..in an aneasthetic siutation mean sedate..or to put "Under"..to laypersons it means to "settle down" or calm down...Course if you would like to equate Anesthetic with Sedation like the public thinks...you would be mislead...

LMS:laugh:

Their not using it as an anesthetic to sleep their using it for a mild euphoria, a sedative as to calm down and relax. They know the right dosage not to get knocked out.

[AlohaRainbow]

I'm gonna pm you about something, but here is the statutes for FL and I'm sure it's the same in most states, because it's a federal as well as state law.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0893/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0893-%3ESection%2004#0893.04

from your link:

(2)(a) A pharmacist may not dispense a controlled substance listed in Schedule II, Schedule III, or Schedule IV to any patient or patient's agent without first determining, in the exercise of her or his professional judgment, that the order is valid. The pharmacist may dispense the controlled substance, in the exercise of her or his professional judgment, when the pharmacist or pharmacist's agent has obtained satisfactory patient information from the patient or the patient's agent.

my comment: i have picked up (controlled substance) pain medicine for my mother. the pharmacist asked me questions about my mother (address, phone number, name of the prescribing doctor) to make sure the info i gave her matched what was on the prescription/pharmacy records (e.g. "satisfactory pateint information from the patient's agent") but i didn't need to show any id (i did need to sign and indicate my relationship, daughter, on the pick up log)
-----
(2)(d) ...If the prescriber is not available to verify a prescription, the pharmacist may dispense the controlled substance but may insist that the person to whom the controlled substance is dispensed provide valid photographic identification...

my comment: this would, imo, rarely happen (that the prescriber is not available to verify a prescription)... but this section gives discretion to the pharmacist who may insist on photo id (not "must" insist)

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.enterprisenews.com/opinions/x1805825870/Coma-inducing-drug-key-in-Jackson-case

Consider this: If Jackson died from propofol, he wouldn’t have needed CPR because the drug would have caused respiratory collapse before heart failure – a particularly serious risk when a patient is dehydrated, and Jackson had just come off a long practice session for his planned concerts in London.

When propofol causes respiratory failure in a ‘‘dry’’ patient, the patient needs hydration, not CPR. And if Murray understood this, maybe his delay in calling 911 was because he was giving Jackson IV fluid. Murray also might have known that because propofol dissipates quickly, delaying the arrival of help would have allowed time for the drug to disappear from Jackson’s system.

[aproudmom]

Can we not remember them all...it is true and a few of you know my BIL is one of the honored men to escort our fallen soldiers home he is a 2 time Iraq vet and now trains others at Fort Knox but since last week a crew of 9 have been from KY to Ohio, back to KY then to Indianapolis to New Albany In, and now in Michigan. I do not blame MJ for not showing the coverage of what is going on and neither should the families it is our fault and the medias they cover the most ridiculous things like noses falling off to Octo-mom IMO it needs to be addressed but it takes a united country and so far I guess that has not happened..at least the 18yr ban on photos have been changed with the new President but still does not matter if we do not know about it so we can support all..SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO STOP Blaming MJ and look in the mirror..JMO
VERY VERY SAD AND TRUE The only reason I wanted to post this on here was because alot of talk has been going around about the coverage of MJ and I agree with this aunt and she is amazing I suggest you all watch her and listen but we can not blame another dead person and not saying she is she states who is to blame..but my question is does anyone care to watch fallen solders returning home or would you line the streets to honor them if they would only let us know about it??

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5153353n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
a letter from Martha Gillis of Springfield, whose nephew, Lt. Brian Bradshaw, was killed in Afghanistan on June 25, the day that Michael Jackson died. The letter criticized the extensive media coverage of Jackson's death compared with the brief coverage of Lt. Bradshaw's death
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/14637/honoring-the-fallen-us-military-kia-iraq-afghanistanpakistan-june-2009

[Lyndawitha"Y]

]Their not using it as an anesthetic [/B]to sleep their using it for a mild euphoria, a sedative as to calm down and relax. They know the right dosage not to get knocked out.

Who are the "They" you are talking about?..Profolol is not used for or to get a Euphoric State..it is used to render complete unconsciosness..The only euphoria experienced with this drug is when they wake up..and feel simply marvelous...and that was reported by Aneasthetist who found that when waking up patients post full blown aneasthesia...There isnt that twilight level..where they enjoy unparalleled "Highs" for any extended period of time..In fact the patients experience no recollections of anything from the time they went under ..however some wake up feeling "super"..

LMS:laugh:

[legalmania]

Sorry to quote myself..I found this link to show there are different levels of sedatives...

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sedation


Usually procedures for conscious sedation do not require preoperative or pre-testing orders. Clinical situations for unconscious sedation typically involve eating and drinking protocols starting the day before the procedure.
The age and physical status of the patient is useful in determining sensitivity. A detailed past history, especially prior experiences with sedatives and other anesthetics is an important part of preparatory assessment. It is important to determine if there were any untoward side effects associated with a previous medication. Patient positioning is important to prevent blood pressure changes or nerve damage associated with abnormal position.

Unconscious Sedation would fall into the category of Diprivan/Profolol
Propofol this med goes directly to that part of the brain to render someone Unconscious..comma like...not just relaxing the patient.

LMS

It all comes down to dosage. You could take 10 tylenol p.m. and be knocked out. You can take a small dosage of propofol and just relax.

[aproudmom]

http://www.enterprisenews.com/opinions/x1805825870/Coma-inducing-drug-key-in-Jackson-case

Consider this: If Jackson died from propofol, he wouldn’t have needed CPR because the drug would have caused respiratory collapse before heart failure – a particularly serious risk when a patient is dehydrated, and Jackson had just come off a long practice session for his planned concerts in London.

When propofol causes respiratory failure in a ‘‘dry’’ patient, the patient needs hydration, not CPR. And if Murray understood this, maybe his delay in calling 911 was because he was giving Jackson IV fluid. Murray also might have known that because propofol dissipates quickly, delaying the arrival of help would have allowed time for the drug to disappear from Jackson’s system.

does anyone remember one of the guys from AEG saying they could not even get MJ to stop for a drink of water or to try to save his voice this was when they were talking about how well he was and how much energy and happy he was for the tour..

[legalmania]

Who are the "They" you are talking about?..Profolol is not used for or to get a Euphoric State..it is used to render complete unconsciosness..The only euphoria experienced with this drug is when they wake up..and feel simply marvelous...and that was reported by Aneasthetist who found that when waking up patients post full blown aneasthesia...There isnt that twilight level..where they enjoy unparalleled "Highs" for any extended period of time..In fact the patients experience no recollections of anything from the time they went under ..however some wake up feeling "super"..

LMS:laugh:

I told you I worked with a lot of addicts in my time and addicts with money and they would get all kinds of stuff, I had to get a PDR just to keep up with what they were taking. They would take the drugs and some would pass out others would talk and talk, others would want to clean it all depended on the person, but it didn't knock them all out. I could tell some stories but my license forbids me to tell.

[Nic99]

Can we not remember them all...it is true and a few of you know my BIL is one of the honored men to escort our fallen soldiers home he is a 2 time Iraq vet and now trains others at Fort Knox but since last week a crew of 9 have been from KY to Ohio, back to KY then to Indianapolis to New Albany In, and now in Michigan. I do not blame MJ for not showing the coverage of what is going on and neither should the families it is our fault and the medias they cover the most ridiculous things like noses falling off to Octo-mom IMO it needs to be addressed but it takes a united country and so far I guess that has not happened..at least the 18yr ban on photos have been changed with the new President but still does not matter if we do not know about it so we can support all..SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO STOP Blaming MJ and look in the mirror..JMO
VERY VERY SAD AND TRUE The only reason I wanted to post this on here was because alot of talk has been going around about the coverage of MJ and I agree with this aunt and she is amazing I suggest you all watch her and listen but we can not blame another dead person and not saying she is she states who is to blame..but my question is does anyone care to watch fallen solders returning home or would you line the streets to honor them if they would only let us know about it??

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5153353n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
a letter from Martha Gillis of Springfield, whose nephew, Lt. Brian Bradshaw, was killed in Afghanistan on June 25, the day that Michael Jackson died. The letter criticized the extensive media coverage of Jackson's death compared with the brief coverage of Lt. Bradshaw's death
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/14637/honoring-the-fallen-us-military-kia-iraq-afghanistanpakistan-june-2009

How very true and a heartfelt post, thanks. I have thought of this myself many times, who is to say that one life is more important or deserves more recognition than another. We are all human beings on this planet and our soldiers do an extremely brave and great service to our countries. I know that at times our soldiers are honoured with parades, etc, but not enough imo.

I suppose it is a fact that celebrities will always get more recognition, that is not down to their doing, but the media, once again, who are more often than not the cause of their downfall imo. Just look at Princess Di and what happened there.

Anyway, I agree, our soldiers should be honoured in a greater degree, both in the US and over here and around the world. I suppose their job may be taken for granted in a way and they do deserve every bit of recognition and I am very sure that the public would be there to honour them if such events were held.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

It all comes down to dosage. You could take 10 tylenol p.m. and be knocked out. You can take a small dosage of propofol and just relax.

I certainly wouldnt want to take the chance..knowing full well a cc more..and you are dead...It's not that simple of drug..are there are very complicated dosing instructions....that is why all the support equipment is required when using it..and self medicating..is a recipe for disaster..as no one is there to resuscitate if you are off on your dosing..

I do think you are confusing Versed with this medication...Versed is benzo based...Fentanyl is Opiate based..Diprivan is hypnotic based...

Diprivan is only used in Surgical Suite/ICU/OR/ER settings..that is until MJ....and everywhere but Dr. Murray's "Medical Facility Bedroom" has equipement available for resuscitation..



LMS

[legalmania]

http://www.enterprisenews.com/opinions/x1805825870/Coma-inducing-drug-key-in-Jackson-case

Consider this: If Jackson died from propofol, he wouldn’t have needed CPR because the drug would have caused respiratory collapse before heart failure – a particularly serious risk when a patient is dehydrated, and Jackson had just come off a long practice session for his planned concerts in London.

When propofol causes respiratory failure in a ‘‘dry’’ patient, the patient needs hydration, not CPR. And if Murray understood this, maybe his delay in calling 911 was because he was giving Jackson IV fluid. Murray also might have known that because propofol dissipates quickly, delaying the arrival of help would have allowed time for the drug to disappear from Jackson’s system.

I think MJ died from apnea.

[CinderL.]

Their not using it as an anesthetic to sleep their using it for a mild euphoria, a sedative as to calm down and relax. They know the right dosage not to get knocked out.

I guess since 3 or 4 of them died, they messed up with the dosage.

[Dunlurken]

I know in my state I had to sign and return the stub to the pharmacy clerk when I picked up drugs for my husband. I never had to show any ID though.

imo

Same here in Virginia. My husband picks up mine and I pick up his. Heck, I pick up my grand daughters, and my daughters, and never have to show ID. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

I don´t think what you are saying is true. it is not just used to render complete unconsciousness IMO. I posted a link to a Canadian site the other day where you can order it. There was a list of things you can use it for and it included to relax and things like that.

I just found a scientific paper describing a study in which the patients regulate the amount of propofol admistered. They distinguish 5 levels of consciousness which they tested every 15 minutes. The last one - eyes closed and non arousable by mild physical stimulation - is considered over sedation in this study. It begins with fully awake, drowsy etc. That means Propofoi can and probably is used just to relax and calm down. IMO

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vu02n9ubtl4109jm/?p=13b8faebe70d4f249a561af14168ee62&pi=4


Here in the U.S. it is used for surgery. To render a patient unconscious so they can cut into them and they don't feel any pain. And it's Propofol. I guess that was a typo on your part? JMO. It is administered by some CERTIFIED to do so, not a doctor. An Anasthesologist is not a doctor. JMOA.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don´t think what you are saying is true. it is not just used to render complete unconsciousness IMO. I posted a link to a Canadian site the other day where you can order it. There was a list of things you can use it for and it included to relax and things like that.

I just found a scientific paper describing a study in which the patients regulate the amount of propofol admistered. They distinguish 5 levels of consciousness which they tested every 15 minutes. The last one - eyes closed and non arousable by mild physical stimulation - is considered over sedation in this study. It begins with fully awake, drowsy etc. That means Propofoi can and probably is used just to relax and calm down. IMO

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vu02n9ubtl4109jm/?p=13b8faebe70d4f249a561af14168ee62&pi=4

Goodness..the link you put here is really a study done with "End Stage Renal Failure"..yikes..this kind of use for Propofol is NOT Sanctioned anywhere I know of..This example is just a study..not even suggesting it to be part and parcel of therapy for normal people...Geesh..I would also venture to say..all these patients were under 24 /7 monitored enviornment...not in their bedroom..unattended!!

LMS

[aproudmom]

does anyone know just who this family is the dark haired women?
boy did he love christmas..I hope they allow the kids to have christmas he would want that

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2567129/Michael-Jackson-poses-with-suspected-oldest-child-Omer.html

[legalmania]

Once again legalmania..you are parsing a word..Sedation to an Aneasthetist means a much different thing, than it does to the rest of the world...Sedation..hum..in an aneasthetic siutation mean sedate..or to put "Under"..to laypersons it means to "settle down" or calm down...Course if you would like to equate Aneasthetic with Sedation like the public thinks...you would be mislead...

LMS:laugh:

You have no idea of the circle of people I had as clients so don't try to tell me what I know and don't know, I know they were smart and are still alive today and still thank me for saving their lives.:tonguewag:

[legalmania]

Well I gotta go work on my bookstore, dedicated to MJ.

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Human Nature (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/human_nature)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Nic99]

Well I gotta go work on my bookstore, dedicated to MJ.

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Human Nature (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/human_nature)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

Thanks for the song:biggrin:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The point is that Propofol can and is used to render different levels of consciousness, not just complete unconsciousness as you are claiming.

That these patients were in a 24 /7 monitored enviornment, not at home, unattended, is besides the point.

Of course, Propofol should never be used at home etc.

It is always possible they are researching possible treatments for end stage cancer, renal failure patients...but I can guarantee..it is not acceptable treatment in North America.. ..experiments alway go on..doesnt make them acceptable...Who else would experiment with drugs like this unless they had nothing to lose..they are dying already..and likely suffering no end..Just cant bundle this study with authorized PDF recommendations...and oh..I guess I am mandated to follow the medical legal aspects in giving heath care to patients..or following policy and procedures...

Just an aside..people huff all sorts of things..doesnt make it medically sanctioned either...people use and abuse all sorts of things..the difference in this case..Dr. Murray is obliged to follow his oath to First Do No Harm! and not knowingly to put a patient to risk!
LMS

[Dunlurken]

That is a boy; Omer Bhatti the one that is rumored to be MJ's "love child". Omer has denied it though and said MJ was like a father to him.

I'm curious why this guy is coming out of the woodwork now. Never seen hide nor hair of him until recently.... at the funeral.

[Dunlurken]

Dr. Murray is obliged to follow his oath to First Do No Harm! and not knowingly to put a patient to risk!
LMS


Snipped to address: I wouldn't be surprised if it was knowingly. Sheer wrecklessness is not an excuse for not following the law.

As I was thinking (duh!) last night, what about people who drink and drive and kill people. Called "manslaughter". And many go to jail for many, many years. Wasn't intentional, but they still killed someone. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

--------------------------------

Maybe he wants a deal with Joe. Or a slice of the pie. imo

I'm curious about something else I find interesting. Dr. Murray lived in Las Vegas. Joe lives in Las Vegas. Coincidence..... I don't know.

Of course, I don't believe for a nano-second Joe had anything to do with the death of his son..... but the coincidence just struck me hard. JMO.

Murray in Texas and Vegas. Things that make you go hummmmmmm. :closedeyes:

[who_is_it]

does anyone remember one of the guys from AEG saying they could not even get MJ to stop for a drink of water or to try to save his voice this was when they were talking about how well he was and how much energy and happy he was for the tour..

I remember. He performed all dance routines without a break..., he didn't even grab a bottle of water.

The source was the LA Times. Unfortunately the link to the article is no longer available.

[Dunlurken]

The first time I heard of him was shortly after the charges against MJ in 2003. He was living at NL at the time it was raided. His mom and his step-father worked there.Ahhhh, thank you. You have to admit he looks strikingly like MJ. Has anyone posted any other pics besides those at the funeral? TIA.

[GentleBreeze]

I remember. He performed all dance routines without a break..., he didn't even grab a bottle of water.

The source was the LA Times. Unfortunately the link to the article is no longer available.

I remember reading that too.

So was Michael so dehydrated that even the two pills he took didn't fully dissolve?

imo

[Dunlurken]

I remember reading that too.

So was Michael so dehydrated that even the two pills he took didn't fully dissolve?

imo

Exactly. The few times he was taken to the hospital during the trial, it was reportedly for dehydration. That comes from alcohol abuse if I'm not mistaken. JMO.

[aproudmom]

IMO This is a wonderful thing they have done..I am from Indiana and donated to the 4 Oakdale California fallen officers and my uncle and 2 cousins drove there to attend their memorial..so this is wonderful news to me I do not care who donated it...a huge thank you to them..:thumbsup:

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=423772
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The people who staged Michael Jackson's memorial service have donated $90,000 to build a tribute to fallen Los Angeles police officers.

Anschutz Entertainment Group, which owns Staples Center in Los Angeles, donated money received from the sale of 18 luxury suites to guests at the July 7 Jackson memorial.

The company says the decision to donate the money was made before a dispute developed over city funds spent to provide security and other services during the memorial.

Karen Wagener, president of the Los Angeles Police Foundation, says AEG hand-delivered a check for $90,000 to the nonprofit group on Thursday.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I remember reading that too.

So was Michael so dehydrated that even the two pills he took didn't fully dissolve?

imo

you know..something just crossed my mind..and that is MJ had an IV..and Dr. Murray could have easily given him a bolus of fluids to rehydrate him prior to Diprivan...also a Diprivan drip should never be mainlined..but piggybacked into a main line of Normal Saline or other Isotonic solution...Our reasoning is..if there is ever a reaction, or problem..you always have a plain line to treat with...you can NOT give rescue meds in the same line as Diprivan...much less other drugs..there is a whole host of incompatible meds..list is infront of all PDF's..we call them CPS..anyway..IN hopsital..we have a wall hanging that shows all the incompatible meds...so you know which meds you cant mix together..

LMS

[Nic99]

IMO This is a wonderful thing they have done..I am from Indiana and donated to the 4 Oakdale California fallen officers and my uncle and 2 cousins drove there to attend their memorial..so this is wonderful news to me I do not care who donated it...a huge thank you to them..:thumbsup:

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=423772
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The people who staged Michael Jackson's memorial service have donated $90,000 to build a tribute to fallen Los Angeles police officers.

Anschutz Entertainment Group, which owns Staples Center in Los Angeles, donated money received from the sale of 18 luxury suites to guests at the July 7 Jackson memorial.

The company says the decision to donate the money was made before a dispute developed over city funds spent to provide security and other services during the memorial.

Karen Wagener, president of the Los Angeles Police Foundation, says AEG hand-delivered a check for $90,000 to the nonprofit group on Thursday.

That's good to hear and really good news. I am glad they have done that. I remember it was discussed on here about the cost to tax payers, etc, so this is great news and a wonderful gesture. Thanks for the info.

[aproudmom]

that struck me too. Las Vegas. And according to the man that just gave 5.5 million back, he was planning to buy a house there too. iirc and imo

MJ spent alot of time in Vegas has for many years the Martin B. doc said it was like a second home for MJ..

[who_is_it]

I remember reading that too.

So was Michael so dehydrated that even the two pills he took didn't fully dissolve?

imo

As I saved the article as pdf this was the text:

"He looked great and had great energy. He wasn't singing at full level but it was beautiful as ever," Alonzo said. "He didn't even take a moment to grab a bottle of water or take a rest. He went from one number to the other." (...) "He was dancing, singing and joking with the crew. If he was having any aches and pains nobody knew about it this night."
source: LA Times, June 26th

Can't say about the pills...

I wonder if this dehydration could have been caused by the propofol abuse. I've heard about illegal drugs (not sure if speed or ecstasy?) that people don't feel thirsty but dance all night and are at risk to dehydrate. Maybe one can't compare as he was not "on" propofol during the day and because of its short window.

[Dunlurken]

that struck me too. Las Vegas. And according to the man that just gave 5.5 million back, he was planning to buy a house there too. iirc and imo

I missed the part about someone giving 5.5 million back. Can you tell me more?

Also, every time I listen to Thriller, he says a line.... "no one can save your life from the beast about to strike". I over analyze everything. :crying:

[Dunlurken]

you know..something just crossed my mind..and that is MJ had an IV..and Dr. Murray could have easily given him a bolus of fluids to rehydrate him prior to Diprivan...also a Diprivan drip should never be mainlined..but piggybacked into a main line of Normal Saline or other Isotonic solution...Our reasoning is..if there is ever a reaction, or problem..you always have a plain line to treat with...you can NOT give rescue meds in the same line as Diprivan...much less other drugs..there is a whole host of incompatible meds..list is infront of all PDF's..we call them CPS..anyway..IN hopsital..we have a wall hanging that shows all the incompatible meds...so you know which meds you cant mix together..

LMSI have a theory on this too. :w00t: Dr. Murray fell asleep so didn't have a clue what was happening to Michael.

Personally, what was in his system doesn't really matter. The attending physician, who was not licensed to administer propofol, is the COD. JMO.

[CinderL.]

IMO This is a wonderful thing they have done..I am from Indiana and donated to the 4 Oakdale California fallen officers and my uncle and 2 cousins drove there to attend their memorial..so this is wonderful news to me I do not care who donated it...a huge thank you to them..:thumbsup:

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=423772
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The people who staged Michael Jackson's memorial service have donated $90,000 to build a tribute to fallen Los Angeles police officers.

Anschutz Entertainment Group, which owns Staples Center in Los Angeles, donated money received from the sale of 18 luxury suites to guests at the July 7 Jackson memorial.

The company says the decision to donate the money was made before a dispute developed over city funds spent to provide security and other services during the memorial.

Karen Wagener, president of the Los Angeles Police Foundation, says AEG hand-delivered a check for $90,000 to the nonprofit group on Thursday.

The memorial was supposed to be free. Why did they sell the suites in the first place?

[aproudmom]

That's good to hear and really good news. I am glad they have done that. I remember it was discussed on here about the cost to tax payers, etc, so this is great news and a wonderful gesture. Thanks for the info.

I am so happy and it actually came from money made off of the memorial so I am sure MJ would be happy if even in his death he is helping others..California had several huge loses back to back several months ago I will never forget watching the memorial the day little Sandra Cantu went missing in Tracy..and one of the officers gunned down was from Tracy..so this is good it will help families IMO..and a very nice gesture

donated money received from the sale of 18 luxury suites to guests at the July 7 Jackson memorial

[Nic99]

I am so happy and it actually came from money made off of the memorial so I am sure MJ would be happy if even in his death he is helping others..California had several huge loses back to back several months ago I will never forget watching the memorial the day little Sandra Cantu went missing in Tracy..and one of the officers gunned down was from Tracy..so this is good it will help families IMO..and a very nice gesture

donated money received from the sale of 18 luxury suites to guests at the July 7 Jackson memorial

Yup its a great gesture and I am sure MJ would have been very pleased about it too. What a wonderful thing to do and it is great to hear some good news amongst all the bad going around in this world.

[Dunlurken]

WENDY MURPHY: Coma-inducing drug key in Jackson case

http://www.enterprisenews.com/opinions/x1805825870/Coma-inducing-drug-key-in-Jackson-case

You know, it's just too coincidental. Dr. Murray calls some girls to take stuff out of his storage locker at the same time Michael was dead.

One girl said it was a chair..... yeah, right! Subpoena heading her way. JMO.

[who_is_it]

I missed the part about someone giving 5.5 million back. Can you tell me more?

Also, every time I listen to Thriller, he says a line.... "no one can save your life from the beast about to strike". I over analyze everything. :crying:

Tohme-Tohme had to pay 5.5 million back.

[Dunlurken]

Jackson advisor hands over cash

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gCc1i1T0kcPFp8WWp2AgPqExT_AQ

A secret? WTH? Dr. thome thome? Nah, I ain't buying what he's selling. JMO.

[aproudmom]

The memorial was supposed to be free. Why did they sell the suites in the first place?

I do not know but who cares if someone paid for them..can we be positive about something for a few minutes? I did not read they paid to go to the memorial were was that said:confused:

[Stellagant]

Who are the "They" you are talking about?..Profolol is not used for or to get a Euphoric State..it is used to render complete unconsciosness..The only euphoria experienced with this drug is when they wake up..and feel simply marvelous...and that was reported by Aneasthetist who found that when waking up patients post full blown aneasthesia...There isnt that twilight level..where they enjoy unparalleled "Highs" for any extended period of time..In fact the patients experience no recollections of anything from the time they went under ..however some wake up feeling "super"..

LMS:laugh:

You are being incredibly naive if you think people who undergo a surgical procedure wake up "feeling super" but that feeling isn't a drug-induced euphoria. GMAB. Once the Diprivan wears off, there is no "feeling super." Ask anybody who has ever had surgery. :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtml

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.

[Nic99]

I do not know but who cares if someone paid for them..can we be positive about something for a few minutes? I did not read they paid to go to the memorial were was that said:confused:

ITA and I'm with you:smile:

[Dunlurken]

The short term effect of knocking yourself out. Then you have to be monitored, or it's nite-nite 4-ever. You can't take the needle out of your own neck. Someone has to do it for you. JMO.

[aproudmom]

I have a theory on this too. :w00t: Dr. Murray fell asleep so didn't have a clue what was happening to Michael.

Personally, what was in his system doesn't really matter. The attending physician, who was not licensed to administer propofol, is the COD. JMO.

you think he slept during the day to stay up at night to watch him they did say he would come at night and leave in the mornings...:sneaky:

[aproudmom]

Diane Dimond: Reports Say Michael Jackson May Have Died Earlier Than Farrah Fawcett
http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=423764

Will we ever know is the question

[Dunlurken]

You are being incredibly naive if you think people who undergo a surgical procedure wake up "feeling super" but that feeling isn't a drug-induced euphoria. GMAB. Once the Diprivan wears off, there is no "feeling super." Ask anybody who has ever had surgery. :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtml

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.
from your link:

"And almost all Diprivan addicts are medical professionals. They have easy access to the drug because it's not controlled and tracked like narcotics. Dr. Paul Wischmeyer found that 28 percent of the medical professionals who tried Diprivan even once died."

[Dunlurken]

you think he slept during the day to stay up at night to watch him they did say he would come at night and leave in the mornings...:sneaky:

Hey, if I was being paid $150,000 a month, you'd bet your sweet azz I would keep a close eye on my gravy train. JMO.

[Stellagant]

I have a theory on this too. :w00t: Dr. Murray fell asleep so didn't have a clue what was happening to Michael.

Personally, what was in his system doesn't really matter. The attending physician, who was not licensed to administer propofol, is the COD. JMO.

I think his falling asleep and thus failing to monitor Jackson's respiratory function is the COD.

[CinderL.]

I do not know but who cares if someone paid for them..can we be positive about something for a few minutes? I did not read they paid to go to the memorial were was that said:confused:

Geez, I am just curious why they sold the suites when the memorial was supposed to be free.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/aeg-to-donate-money-from-staples-center-suites-sold-for-michael-jackson-memorial.html

Anschutz Entertainment Group, the company that owns Staples Center, plans to make a $90,000 donation tomorrow to the Los Angeles Police Foundation using money from its sale of 18 suites – which cost $5,000 each – to attendees of the July 7 Michael Jackson tribute.

[Stellagant]

from your link:

"And almost all Diprivan addicts are medical professionals. They have easy access to the drug because it's not controlled and tracked like narcotics. Dr. Paul Wischmeyer found that 28 percent of the medical professionals who tried Diprivan even once died."

Absolutely. A very lethal drug if you're alone and not being monitored. Obviously, Jackson was aware of that tidbit and that's why he hired Murray.

[aproudmom]

News that Jackson's autopsy results have been delayed indefinitely may be because Jackson's drug connection is reportedly being traced to at least 12 doctors.

"Included in the list: A Las Vegas dentist, a Beverly Hills anesthesiologist and the New York ear, nose and throat specialist who is reported to have conducted the physical exam Jackson needed so concert promoters could get insurance coverage on his comeback tour in London," Dimond says.

WHAT a ear, nose, and throat doctor did his exam? OK if true why..:confused:

[Dunlurken]

I think his falling asleep and thus failing to monitor Jackson's respiratory function is the COD.
Thank you. Just think if it were you or me and we were drinking and driving and killed or maimed someone. We'd be in jaill for the rest of our lives or pretty close to it. This wasn't necessarily intentional, but Michael is still dead, WITH AN ATTENDING PHYSICIAN THERE.

I'm just apalled. JMO.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

maybe you didn´t read the page I posted a link to? It wasn´t used for treatment. They let the patients administer during a surgical procedure that they needed anyway. IMO


Here is what I read~~ from your link



Patient-controlled sedation using propofol in eight patients with endstage renal failure

It is a study conducted in Japan..by the department of aneasthesa..8 patients who had an A-V shunt placed into their forearms..to conduct a study of the effects of Propofol..an its effects at various doseage levels....it took place back in 2003 and posted results in 2004...Hummmm..Whatever..it is not been adopted as a "treatment" ..or is even listed in the Monograph of the drug...

I am sure they did some experiements..but for self treatment?...it has been widely known about Morphine Pumps...but even they have limits to dosing..and only people diagnoised with End stage of ailment will even be authorized to use it...Propofol..is decades away from this stage..yikes..even Dr. Murray didnt respond to MJ's crisis...humm?

LMS

[Dunlurken]

Absolutely. A very lethal drug if you're alone and not being monitored. Obviously, Jackson was aware of that tidbit and that's why he hired Murray.

And Murray failed him.

I don't blame Michael. I blame the enablers who knew what was going on and providing and administer the diprovan. Murder 2. JMO. A cardiologist, of all people, should know better. $$$$$$$$$ JMO.

[who_is_it]

You are being incredibly naive if you think people who undergo a surgical procedure wake up "feeling super" but that feeling isn't a drug-induced euphoria. GMAB. Once the Diprivan wears off, there is no "feeling super." Ask anybody who has ever had surgery. :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtml

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.

Similar says an article originally posted by Zenyatta yesterday:

http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf

//snip//
A feeling of euphoria with no residual “hangover” might suggest propofol is a near perfect mood-altering drug, but it is one that possesses a very thin window separating the dreamy state from the nonresponsive.

[GentleBreeze]

Exactly. The few times he was taken to the hospital during the trial, it was reportedly for dehydration. That comes from alcohol abuse if I'm not mistaken. JMO.

I hope not. :biggrin: I don't even drink and I can become dehydrated especially if I exert myself and dont drink enough fluids.

I don't think it came from alcohol abuse this time.

He had just returned home after midnight from doing a grueling rehearsal session. We all know what energy he exerted.

It seems Murray first thing would have wanted to replenish the fluid he had to know he had lost.

imo

[Stellagant]

And Murray failed him.

I don't blame Michael. I blame the enablers who knew what was going on and providing and administer the diprovan. Murder 2. JMO. A cardiologist, of all people, should know better. $$$$$$$$$ JMO.

I doubt anybody else knew what exactly Murray was giving Jackson or felt themselves in a position to question a physician. I think the charge is going to be involuntary manslaughter. Murray clearly failed in his duty to Michael Jackson but I doubt the DA can prove his failure was intentional and he wanted Michael dead.

[CinderL.]

And Murray failed him.

I don't blame Michael. I blame the enablers who knew what was going on and providing and administer the diprovan. Murder 2. JMO. A cardiologist, of all people, should know better. $$$$$$$$$ JMO.

I think Murray is in big trouble, as he should be, but, I sure do blame MJ also. No one held him down and forced these medications on him. He shopped for a Dr., and shopped for the Propofol. He had been warned by numerous people that it was dangerous, and he used it anyway.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

]You are being incredibly naive if you think people who undergo a surgical procedure wake up "feeling super" but that feeling isn't a drug-induced euphoria. GMAB. Once the Diprivan wears off, there is no "feeling super." Ask anybody who has ever had surgery. :rolleyes:[/B]
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtml

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.

Bolded~~~to address


pardon me...I really dont appreciate that comment..i am not naive..I was only relaying some comments that some Aneasthetist have reported..I have never suggested this is true or false..but only mention what has been reported...This drug has no purpose for anything other than rendering obtunded..thus beyond cognitive functioning...some wish to believe that level is a high..I cant or wont condone such a thing..but I cant condemn it either..as I have never experienced it with any of my patients...

Now..Versad is another thing...yikes many patients profess Love for their Doctor or whoever else is in their line of vision..LOL

LMS

[GentleBreeze]

from your link:

"And almost all Diprivan addicts are medical professionals. They have easy access to the drug because it's not controlled and tracked like narcotics. Dr. Paul Wischmeyer found that 28 percent of the medical professionals who tried Diprivan even once died."

It even makes me wonder if Murray had done this to himself before since the majority of addicts of this type seem to be in the medical profession.:w00t:

imo

[Dunlurken]

I hope not. :biggrin: I don't even drink and I can become dehydrated especially if I exert myself and dont drink enough fluids.

I don't think it came from alcohol abuse this time.

He had just returned home after midnight from doing a grueling rehearsal session. We all know what energy he exerted.

It seems Murray first thing would have wanted to replenish the fluid he had to know he had lost.

imo

It would seem...... not a good doctor. I still say he is the COD. Glad I'm not paying $150,000 a month to someone who will "allegedly" kill me. I wonder if "Dr" Murray ever did any blood tests on Michael? To see what was in his system. JMO.

[who_is_it]

And Murray failed him.

I don't blame Michael. I blame the enablers who knew what was going on and providing and administer the diprovan. Murder 2. JMO. A cardiologist, of all people, should know better. $$$$$$$$$ JMO.

From a legal point of view: Murray.

From a moral point of view the people who introduced this drug to Michael Jackson are to blame, too. Apart from the posters here at the board who work in medical professions initially more or less NOBODY knew that drug. I've never ever heard about it before. It's a drug which is usually "only" abused in the inner circles of anesthetists. I also blame the idiot who once in the past introduced this drug to MJ; I'm sure MJ himself was as clueless as many people here at the board at the beginning of the discussion.

[GentleBreeze]

I think Murray is in big trouble, as he should be, but, I sure do blame MJ also. No one held him down and forced these medications on him. He shopped for a Dr., and shopped for the Propofol. He had been warned by numerous people that it was dangerous, and he used it anyway.

I have never heard of any drug addict who had to be forced to take drugs.

Murray wasn't forced to give it to him either but he did willingly, it seems.

imo

[who_is_it]

I think Murray is in big trouble, as he should be, but, I sure do blame MJ also. No one held him down and forced these medications on him. He shopped for a Dr., and shopped for the Propofol. He had been warned by numerous people that it was dangerous, and he used it anyway.

Once I agree with something against MJ... but one doesn't have to forget he was addicted. Shopping around and ignorance of warnings is the nature of the disease.

I also could imagine he almost begged Dr. Murray to give him this drug.

[Stellagant]

Bolded~~~to address


pardon me...I really dont appreciate that comment..i am not niave..I was only relaying some comments that some Aneasthetist have reported..I have never suggested this is true or false..but only mention what has been reported...This drug has no purpose for anything other than rendering obtunded..thus beyond cognitive functioning...some wish to believe that level is a high..I cant or wont condone such a thing..but I cant condemn it either..as I have never experienced it with any of my patients...

Now..Versad is another thing...yikes many patients profess Love for their Doctor or whoever else is in their line of vision..LOL

LMS

Gosh, I thought you were aware Michael Jackson was NOT a patient undergoing a surgical procedure. My mistake.

[who_is_it]

It would seem...... not a good doctor. I still say he is the COD. Glad I'm not paying $150,000 a month to someone who will "allegedly" kill me. I wonder if "Dr" Murray ever did any blood tests on Michael? To see what was in his system. JMO.

Blood tests...? -- I believe he cared for nothing at all after I've read what the media reported that he fell asleep (if this is true). "No" doctor in a hospital falls asleep when on nightshifts. Dr. Murray was paid a lot. His working hours were in the night and morning.

[Dunlurken]

I think Murray is in big trouble, as he should be, but, I sure do blame MJ also. No one held him down and forced these medications on him. He shopped for a Dr., and shopped for the Propofol. He had been warned by numerous people that it was dangerous, and he used it anyway.

I don't think he "administered" it to himself. And he had a "doctor" there to keep him alive. The doctor failed him.

Bottom line.... doctor guilty.

Even the person who took the 911 call said, oh, you have a doctor there. No problemo then.

[Stellagant]

It even makes me wonder if Murray had done this to himself before since the majority of addicts of this type seem to be in the medical profession.:w00t:

imo

It's been reported Murray is in serious financial difficulty and if it is true that Murray fell asleep while on duty in his $150,000/month gig that would help relieve his financial problems, I'd say the guy is the result of his own addictive destruction.

[Dunlurken]

Once I agree with something against MJ... but one doesn't have to forget he was addicted. Shopping around and ignorance of warnings is the nature of the disease.

I also could imagine he almost begged Dr. Murray to give him this drug.

He begged that nurse too, and she said NO.

[Dunlurken]

It's been reported Murray is in serious financial difficulty and if it is true that Murray fell asleep while on duty in his $150,000/month gig that would help relieve his financial problems, I'd say the guy is the result of his own addictive destruction.

Dr. Murray hadn't paid his $15,000 a month mortgage since January, 2009, heading for foreclosure.

He owed $11,000 in back child support.

And about $450,000 in credit card debt. Think I have those numbers right, but don't quote me. LOL.

[Not Telling]

Here in the U.S. it is used for surgery. To render a patient unconscious so they can cut into them and they don't feel any pain. And it's Propofol. I guess that was a typo on your part? JMO. It is administered by some CERTIFIED to do so, not a doctor. An Anasthesologist is not a doctor. JMOA.

Anesthesiologists are most certainly doctors....either MD or DO...
http://www.theaba.org/Home/default


In the United States, anesthesiologists are physicians (MD or DO) who have chosen to specialize in anesthesiology. Anesthesiologists in the United States must have completed a four-year undergraduate college degree, including pre-medical requirements. Like other physicians, anesthesiologists complete four years of medical school. Physician training programs in the United States, without exception, require four years of residency training for board certification eligibility in the specialty of anesthesiology (usually one year of general medical or surgical training followed by three years of clinical anesthesiology training). In all, after graduating high school, physicians specializing in anesthesiology complete at least twelve years of education and training prior to becoming eligible for board-certification.
http://www.answers.com/anesthesiologist



Nurse Anesthetists with advanced training in anesthesia may also administer anesthesia under direct supervision of an Anesthesiologist...
http://www.answers.com/nurse%20anesthetist

[Rayosunshine]

You are being incredibly naive if you think people who undergo a surgical procedure wake up "feeling super" but that feeling isn't a drug-induced euphoria. GMAB. Once the Diprivan wears off, there is no "feeling super." Ask anybody who has ever had surgery. :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtml

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.

You are so right. There is no sense of "euphoria" with diprivan for surgery - on waking up I would describe the feeling of "PAIN"! Maybe when there is no pain producing element, persons do get a sense of euphoria - I dunno. I received diprivan for shoulder manipulation to break up scar tissue - totally non-invasive procedure - I was out like a light and when I woke up my shoulder was burning.

If CM did administer this drug in the home without emergency equipment, that is just plain Stupid - he is a trained medical professional (sometimes that does not mean that much, trust me as an RN, I know) - he will surely pay the price if it is ever disclosed what actually killed MJ if it is the diprivan, but I feel the results may well be inconclusive.

[sunstar]

You know, it's just too coincidental. Dr. Murray calls some girls to take stuff out of his storage locker at the same time Michael was dead.

One girl said it was a chair..... yeah, right! Subpoena heading her way. JMO.

Hi! I don't believe either of them. A chair and some used needles? Why on earth would the doctor save used needles ~ in a storage facility? :sneaky: MOO

[CinderL.]

I have never heard of any drug addict who had to be forced to take drugs.

Murray wasn't forced to give it to him either but he did willingly, it seems.

imo

Agreed....

[CinderL.]

Once I agree with something against MJ... but one doesn't have to forget he was addicted. Shopping around and ignorance of warnings is the nature of the disease.

I also could imagine he almost begged Dr. Murray to give him this drug.

For $150,000.00 a month, he probably didn't have to beg very much.

[Stellagant]

You are so right. There is no sense of "euphoria" with diprivan for surgery - on waking up I would describe the feeling of "PAIN"! Maybe when there is no pain producing element, persons do get a sense of euphoria - I dunno. I received diprivan for shoulder manipulation to break up scar tissue - totally non-invasive procedure - I was out like a light and when I woke up my shoulder was burning.

If CM did administer this drug in the home without emergency equipment, that is just plain Stupid - he is a trained medical professional (sometimes that does not mean that much, trust me as an RN, I know) - he will surely pay the price if it is ever disclosed what actually killed MJ if it is the diprivan, but I feel the results may well be inconclusive.

I think Michael Jackson was in chronic pain and he took the Diprivan for the sedative effect to obtain sleep relief, not the euphoria. And I also think Murray's days of being a licensed physician are numbered, as well they should be.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Dr. Murray hadn't paid his $15,000 a month mortgage since January, 2009, heading for foreclosure.

He owed $11,000 in back child support.

And about $450,000 in credit card debt. Think I have those numbers right, but don't quote me. LOL.

Once again..Money is the motivator for wrong doings...and it does seem MJ went thru his list of contacts to continue his "Sleep Therapy" which I believe had been going on with Dr. Klein..and who withdrew that therapy option..forcing MJ to seek it elsewhere...and Yikes..Dr. Murray fit the bill..and bit the bait....Doesnt absolve his responsibilities as a licensed professional one bit..

By the way..whatever charges come his way..could very well go up to 2nd degree murder..not because he wanted MJ to die..but his knowledge of the risk..and ignored and disregarded the need for adequate support incase of adverse event in administering this drug...means he "Recklessly with Knowledge of the Risks" went foreward with the treatment...In a way its no different than playing with a loaded gun, knowing it could kill if it went off....

So, I guess it will come down to just how far the DA will push this..not to mention a Grand Jury...havent heard anymore about the GJ convening on this matter..

LMS:ohmy:

[sunstar]

I have never heard of any drug addict who had to be forced to take drugs.

Murray wasn't forced to give it to him either but he did willingly, it seems.

imo

It's reported that MJ begged others for diprivan but was told "no". Dr. M could've done the same thing except he was in financial straits and couldn't afford to lose his "job" with MJ. Now is he's not only lost his job, with MJ's death, but probably his career as a doctor as well. I wonder if it was all worth it to him? :sad: MOO

[CinderL.]

I don't think he "administered" it to himself. And he had a "doctor" there to keep him alive. The doctor failed him.

Bottom line.... doctor guilty.

Even the person who took the 911 call said, oh, you have a doctor there. No problemo then.

Oh don't get me wrong, I certainly do blame the Dr., but I also hold MJ to blame, his life his choice. IMO

[Rayosunshine]

Hi! I don't believe either of them. A chair and some used needles? Why on earth would the doctor save used needles ~ in a storage facility? :sneaky: MOO


Maybe he had his staff dump containers of biohazard material in dumpsters that where offsite, so he didn't have to pay for them to be picked up. I think there are companies that deal with pick up and disposal of biohazard materials and don't believe it is the regular city garbage pick up - correct me if this is wrong, but I know that is how it is in the city I live in.

I once worked for a home health agency that tried to get me to believe that it would be okay for me to put my biohazard box in my regular garbage can for pick up by the city - I never did - I had alot of sealed up ones in the trunk of my car that I properly disposed of when I went to work for a new agency. Biohazard boxes don't close well, at least many I have had will pop back open, so I wrapped them with duct tape - to be sure no one could be harmed, since they were definitely full of needles used on HIV+, Hep + and anything else that's scary.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Oh don't get me wrong, I certainly do blame the Dr., but I also hold MJ to blame, his life his choice. IMO

I fully agree that MJ has some blame..but his fault in this case..has been paid in full..now, Dr. blame...yep..It is the final line of defense..when addicts or people abusing the system..have to be told NO..No..a Thousands times NO....In a way, it is the role of Dr.'s or other HC professionals to protect patients from themselves..whether its addicts or pychiatric patients..It is not acceptable to condone demands like this....Thus..the Dr. shopping and Medical contact shopping..complaining.. by MJ..until he got what he wanted....and he died because of his wants....

LMS

[sunstar]

Maybe he had his staff dump containers of biohazard material in dumpsters that where offsite, so he didn't have to pay for them to be picked up. I think there are companies that deal with pick up and disposal of biohazard materials and don't believe it is the regular city garbage pick up - correct me if this is wrong, but I know that is how it is in the city I live in.

I once worked for a home health agency that tried to get me to believe that it would be okay for me to put my biohazard box in my regular garbage can for pick up by the city - I never did - I had alot of sealed up ones in the trunk of my car that I properly disposed of when I went to work for a new agency. Biohazard boxes don't close well, at least many I have had will pop back open, so I wrapped them with duct tape - to be sure no one could be harmed, since they were definitely full of needles used on HIV+, Hep + and anything else that's scary.
You may very well be right. Most doctors/hospitals have the biohazard pick up on site, in specially marked containers, instead of transporting them to a storage facility and then moved later. I agree, the only reason I could see for him storing them some place is to avoid the cost for the pick up since they can't be put with the 'regular' garbage. MOO

[Stellagant]

Oh don't get me wrong, I certainly do blame the Dr., but I also hold MJ to blame, his life his choice. IMO

I seriously doubt Michael Jackson's severe burn injury or his lupus where "choices" on his part.

[Stellagant]

I actually read somewhere today his lawyer said he couldn´t work because of this investigation and wants to work as a doctor again. Incredible. imo

Wishful thinking on his part. Who in their right mind would choose him as their doctor after this fiasco?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I actually read somewhere today his lawyer said he couldn´t work because of this investigation and wants to work as a doctor again. Incredible. imo

Given what you just said..I wonder just how closely they are watching Dr. M.???..he could maybe try to go elsewhere to find work..you know..where they dont bother to "Credential" ya in order to Practice Medicine>>>Not to mention,maybe go to a Country where extradition isnt allowed...hummmmmmmJust wondering??

LMS

[CinderL.]

I fully agree that MJ has some blame..but his fault in this case..has been paid in full..now, Dr. blame...yep..It is the final line of defense..when addicts or people abusing the system..have to be told NO..No..a Thousands times NO....In a way, it is the role of Dr.'s or other HC professionals to protect patients from themselves..whether its addicts or pychiatric patients..It is not acceptable to condone demands like this....Thus..the Dr. shopping and Medical contact shopping..complaining.. by MJ..until he got what he wanted....and he died because of his wants....

LMS

Everything you are saying is true, but unless some of these Dr.'s go to jail and lose everything, things won't change. Maybe after this and the ANS Dr.'s and HKS face jail, Dr.'s might thing twice.

[CinderL.]

I seriously doubt Michael Jackson's severe burn injury or his lupus where "choices" on his part.

He needed Propofol for his burn, and lupus??? That is pretty extreme IMO.

[Stellagant]

He needed Propofol for his burn, and lupus??? That is pretty extreme IMO.

To someone totally ignorant as to the desperation of those suffering pain, I suppose it is pretty extreme.

[GentleBreeze]

I think Michael Jackson was in chronic pain and he took the Diprivan for the sedative effect to obtain sleep relief, not the euphoria. And I also think Murray's days of being a licensed physician are numbered, as well they should be.

ITA!

I think MJs only motivation was to be able to sleep.

Even Nurse Lee said he was tired and sleep deprived and I do think he did have legitimate pain. The exertion he was putting on his body had to be tremendous for him. He was not use to rigorously rehearsing and even though he sure didn't look 50..... he probably felt every year of it.

imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Everything you are saying is true, but unless some of these Dr.'s go to jail and lose everything, things won't change. Maybe after this and the ANS Dr.'s and HKS face jail, Dr.'s might thing twice.

We can only hope CinderL..I am sick and tired of reading about cases where physicians use their power for BAD..those that murder their wives..or husbands..or to facilitate rich/ or big players with money..Drives me crazy...Dr.'s are human..not Gods..however some seem to believe they are...and that is precisely why they get away with so much....Of Course, errors can be made..unintentional..yep..but this does not even come close to professional error..it was Professional Negligence..aforethought!..He not ony knew..it may prove that he "Consciously tried to cover up"...Hummmm//I just dont trust what is coming out of his camp at this point..not logical to me anyway!

LMS

[who_is_it]

The Two Sides of Dr. Conrad Murray

Since Michael Jackson's death, the picture emerging of Dr. Conrad Murray has become increasingly grim.

Strapped for cash, the physician left his low-income patients and signed on as Jackson's personal physician for $150,000 a month, only to become a target of a manslaughter investigation amid reports he injected the pop icon with a powerful anesthesia the night before his death.

But to those who have long known him and been his patients in Texas and Nevada, the 56-year-old doctor from Grenada is no Hollywood Dr. Feelgood. He's a hero, a lifesaver. For these people, the drumbeat of news reports has been met with bafflement and anger. In one section of Houston, Murray is credited with bringing a medical facility where others dared not go. He volunteered to teach elementary school and cared so much about his patients that he offered to do video conferences with them when he couldn't personally attend to them.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20295384,00.html

Thanks for the information. Interesting to once read something good about him...

[CinderL.]

To someone totally ignorant as to the desperation of those suffering pain, I suppose it is pretty extreme.

nice post.

[sunstar]

Everything you are saying is true, but unless some of these Dr.'s go to jail and lose everything, things won't change. Maybe after this and the ANS Dr.'s and HKS face jail, Dr.'s might thing twice.

I totally agree! Dr. M could've said "no" as the nurse and others did. They are supposed to save lives, not be sold to the highest bidder-celebrity-addict. MOO

[Stellagant]

ITA!

I think MJs only motivation was to be able to sleep.

Even Nurse Lee said he was tired and sleep deprived and I do think he did have legitimate pain. The exertion he was putting on his body had to be tremendous for him. He was not use to rigorously rehearsing and even though he sure didn't look 50..... he probably felt every year of it.

imo

The video of the rehearsal the night before his death pretty much shows that the sedative was doing it's job. I don't know of any other sleep-inducing drug that would achieve that result but I also don't believe Jackson's body could sustain it on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time.

[Nic99]

ITA!

I think MJs only motivation was to be able to sleep.

Even Nurse Lee said he was tired and sleep deprived and I do think he did have legitimate pain. The exertion he was putting on his body had to be tremendous for him. He was not use to rigorously rehearsing and even though he sure didn't look 50..... he probably felt every year of it.

imo

Pardon my ignorance, but, if MJ was looking for a drug that enabled him to sleep, why on earth didn't the Doctor give him one of the stronger sleeping pills rather than this highly dangerous drug. There must be loads of drugs out there, apart from anasethesia type drugs that would do the job, if not much better than this one?:confused:

[Eagleeye]

ID for what?

I don't know where you live but I never showed ID to a pharmacist for a prescription. Anyone can bring in or pick up a prescription. It doesn't have to be the person for whom the prescription was written. :confused:

In addition - why would a celebrity megastar go to a pharmacy himself? He has staff to do that kind of thing.

imo

Not for Class II opiates (Demerol, Oxycontin, Oxycodone, Morphine etc. It is a Federal Law that those class of drugs cannot be called in and ID IS required at the pharmacy. Surely if the Pharmacist knows you well he might not ask for ID. Drugs like Tylenol 3 and 4 and Xanax do not fall into the Class II drug category and can be called in.

[CinderL.]

To someone totally ignorant as to the desperation of those suffering pain, I suppose it is pretty extreme.

As you don't know me, you really have no idea how "ignorant" I am with people dealing with pain. I won't go into details, but, I sat in the ICU with my son for a week after he was run over by a car, so I do know something about pain.
Diprovan is not a pain med., not a sleep med. It puts you in a coma. If you believe he used this drug for pain, we will just have to disagree.

[Stellagant]

Pardon my ignorance, but, if MJ was looking for a drug that enabled him to sleep, why on earth didn't the Doctor give him one of the stronger sleeping pills rather than this highly dangerous drug. There must be loads of drugs out there, apart from anasethesia type drugs that would do the job, if not much better than this one?:confused:


What sleeping pill would have enabled him to get up and spend hours rehearsing?

[who_is_it]

It's reported that MJ begged others for diprivan but was told "no". Dr. M could've done the same thing except he was in financial straits and couldn't afford to lose his "job" with MJ. Now is he's not only lost his job, with MJ's death, but probably his career as a doctor as well. I wonder if it was all worth it to him? :sad: MOO

His financial situation is no excuse imo. He just could have sold his house... and that's it. Furthermore The Las Vegas house was a 2nd home.

[CinderL.]

What sleeping pill would have enabled him to get up and spend hours rehearsing?

That is the whole point isn't it? Diprovan didn't enable him to get up and rehearse. It killed him.

[who_is_it]

ID for what?

I don't know where you live but I never showed ID to a pharmacist for a prescription. Anyone can bring in or pick up a prescription. It doesn't have to be the person for whom the prescription was written. :confused:

In addition - why would a celebrity megastar go to a pharmacy himself? He has staff to do that kind of thing.

imo

... that he staff doesn't know, for example.

Moreover celebrities also go to grocery stores, gas stations etc.

[Nic99]

What sleeping pill would have enabled him to get up and spend hours rehearsing?

One that enabled him to sleep at least a good few hours a night. Surely, he had more than 5 mins for sleep.

[Stellagant]

As you don't know me, you really have no idea how "ignorant" I am with people dealing with pain. I won't go into details, but, I sat in the ICU with my son for a week after he was run over by a car, so I do know something about pain.
Diprovan is not a pain med., not a sleep med. It puts you in a coma. If you believe he used this drug for pain, we will just have to disagree.

I do have an idea from your posts...

I never said Jackson used Diprivan for pain, I said his pain from injury and illness lead to his desperation.

And, no, Diprivan does not induce "coma." It's a sedative.

:rolleyes:

[sunstar]

ITA!

I think MJs only motivation was to be able to sleep.

Even Nurse Lee said he was tired and sleep deprived and I do think he did have legitimate pain. The exertion he was putting on his body had to be tremendous for him. He was not use to rigorously rehearsing and even though he sure didn't look 50..... he probably felt every year of it.

imo
I agree. It still doesn't excuse the reckless behavior of Dr. M and others giving him something potentially lethal, just because he "wanted" it. I'd think there would've been another way to treat MJ's anxiety, sleeplessness and pain. :sad: MOO

[who_is_it]

Pardon my ignorance, but, if MJ was looking for a drug that enabled him to sleep, why on earth didn't the Doctor give him one of the stronger sleeping pills rather than this highly dangerous drug. There must be loads of drugs out there, apart from anasethesia type drugs that would do the job, if not much better than this one?:confused:

I thought the same from the very beginning on...

[who_is_it]

What sleeping pill would have enabled him to get up and spend hours rehearsing?

At night... -- not at day time.

[Stellagant]

One that enabled him to sleep at least a good few hours a night. Surely, he had more than 5 mins for sleep.

Name one sleeping pill that ensures a good sleep and no next-day side effects. Thanks.

[sunstar]

His financial situation is no excuse imo. He just could have sold his house... and that's it. Furthermore The Las Vegas house was a 2nd home.

I agree, but there seems to be a lot more than just that house which caused his money problems. There's always bankruptcy though! :smile: MOO

[CinderL.]

I do have an idea from your posts...

I never said Jackson used Diprivan for pain, I said his pain from injury and illness lead to his desperation.

And, no, Diprivan does not induce "coma." It's a sedative.

:rolleyes:

Yes, I hold people accountable for their actions. MJ had choices. He had the money to get the best help available. He chose not to.
It has been posted many times, the Dr.'s on tv have said it many times. You are out in under a minute....stop the med you wake up in seconds. Believe what you want. Done

[GentleBreeze]

TMZ video interviews with women from Dr Murray's office about what was removed from storage unit. Both claim they did not speak with Dr. Murray that morning. Both deny knowing anything about a black Mercedes but in any event both said they removed different things from the storage unit:

Laquanda

http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=9ebe6a1a-4c41-4b3b-a599-644c8345f58b

Laquisha

http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=daa46f0e-96a6-48c2-9c8e-c8996dd45c89

Wow totally different stories on what was picked up. I don't believe either one of their stories.

imo

[Dunlurken]

The Two Sides of Dr. Conrad Murray

Since Michael Jackson's death, the picture emerging of Dr. Conrad Murray has become increasingly grim.

Strapped for cash, the physician left his low-income patients and signed on as Jackson's personal physician for $150,000 a month, only to become a target of a manslaughter investigation amid reports he injected the pop icon with a powerful anesthesia the night before his death.

But to those who have long known him and been his patients in Texas and Nevada, the 56-year-old doctor from Grenada is no Hollywood Dr. Feelgood. He's a hero, a lifesaver. For these people, the drumbeat of news reports has been met with bafflement and anger. In one section of Houston, Murray is credited with bringing a medical facility where others dared not go. He volunteered to teach elementary school and cared so much about his patients that he offered to do video conferences with them when he couldn't personally attend to them.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20295384,00.html
I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If he cared so much about "kids" why didn't he pay his own child support? :confused:

[Stellagant]

Yes, I hold people accountable for their actions. MJ had choices. He had the money to get the best help available. He chose not to.
It has been posted many times, the Dr.'s on tv have said it many times. You are out in under a minute....stop the med you wake up in seconds. Believe what you want. Done

The fact that the doctor didn't monitor Jackson is now Jackson's fault? Maybe it is to you. You seem to want to blame the victim.

Michael Jackson spent $150,000 per month on his personal physician. I'm sure he believed the doctor was "the best help available."

:rolleyes:

[Dunlurken]

Name one sleeping pill that ensures a good sleep and no next-day side effects. Thanks.

Tylenol PM. :thumbsup:

[Stellagant]

Tylenol PM. :thumbsup:

That's not a sleeping pill.

[CinderL.]

The fact that the doctor didn't monitor Jackson is now Jackson's fault? Maybe it is to you. You seem to want to blame the victim.

Michael Jackson spent $150,000 per month on his personal physician. I'm sure he believed the doctor was "the best help available."

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: IF you had read my posts you would have seen that I certainly do hold the Dr. responsible. He had no business giving that drug to anyone, especially without the proper monitoring equipment. But, I do not give MJ a pass on his choices either. He paid the ultimate price for those choices. I think that Dr. Murray and anyone who helped will also pay a price.

[Dunlurken]

That's not a sleeping pill.
It is for me. If I take one, it's nite-nite time. Obviously, I was being facetious. :wink:

[who_is_it]

Yes, I hold people accountable for their actions. MJ had choices. He had the money to get the best help available. He chose not to.
It has been posted many times, the Dr.'s on tv have said it many times. You are out in under a minute....stop the med you wake up in seconds. Believe what you want. Done

Once he had started with this drug again (and got used to induce sleep by it) he couldn't just stop from one day to the next imo -- specially not shortly before the tour.

I also blame it to Bret Rattner (if the story is true). He was the one who introduced the possibility to use anesthesia during a tour imo.

[Nic99]

Name one sleeping pill that ensures a good sleep and no next-day side effects. Thanks.

I don't have that problem luckily, but there must be loads out there surely, that are nowhere near as dangerous as Diprivan.

[Dunlurken]

:rolleyes: IF you had read my posts you would have seen that I certainly do hold the Dr. responsible. He had no business giving that drug to anyone, especially without the proper monitoring equipment. But, I do not give MJ a pass on his choices either. He paid the ultimate price for those choices. I think that Dr. Murray and anyone who helped will also pay a price.
I hope that maybe, just maybe, doctors will do what they are supposed to do. If we can learn only ONE THING from Michael's death, it should be that doctors should be held accountable for the drugs administered, especially in what should be a controlled environment.

Maybe this will be Michael's legacy. Sure, he did some wrong things. So did Marilyn Monroe, so did Elvis Presley. What we have here is Legends "Gone too soon".

JMO.

May they RIP. :rose:

[Stellagant]

It is for me. If I take one, it's nite-nite time. Obviously, I was being facetious. :wink:

I know but there is a strong liklihood a couple of others didn't.....:thumbsup:

[Stellagant]

I don't have that problem luckily, but there must be loads out there surely, that are nowhere near as dangerous as Diprivan.

Loads? If there was even one, I have no doubt Jackson would have preferred it over paying Murray $150,000/month.

[CinderL.]

I hope that maybe, just maybe, doctors will do what they are supposed to do. If we can learn only ONE THING from Michael's death, it should be that doctors should be held accountable for the drugs administered, especially in what should be a controlled environment.

Maybe this will be Michael's legacy. Sure, he did some wrong things. So did Marilyn Monroe, so did Elvis Presley. What we have here is Legends "Gone too soon".

JMO.

May they RIP. :rose:

I hope so too.

[Mamie]

The Two Sides of Dr. Conrad Murray

Since Michael Jackson's death, the picture emerging of Dr. Conrad Murray has become increasingly grim.

Strapped for cash, the physician left his low-income patients and signed on as Jackson's personal physician for $150,000 a month, only to become a target of a manslaughter investigation amid reports he injected the pop icon with a powerful anesthesia the night before his death.

But to those who have long known him and been his patients in Texas and Nevada, the 56-year-old doctor from Grenada is no Hollywood Dr. Feelgood. He's a hero, a lifesaver. For these people, the drumbeat of news reports has been met with bafflement and anger. In one section of Houston, Murray is credited with bringing a medical facility where others dared not go. He volunteered to teach elementary school and cared so much about his patients that he offered to do video conferences with them when he couldn't personally attend to them.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20295384,00.html

He may not have been a "Hollywood Dr. Feelgood" but he had dollar signs in his eyes when he signed on with MJ. I mean when these people really have a chance to stop and think about it, he left all of them to care for only one patient. In his letter to his patients he made mention that he had the opportunity of a lifetime, I think was the way it was termed. He knew how deep in debt he was and that may have been (a portion of it anyway) caused by treating his low income patients but he's a doctor who took an oath and all that, but still left all of them for one. And that was the most critical mistake for Michael Jackson and his whole family, especially his beloved children. JMO

[Stellagant]

I hope that maybe, just maybe, doctors will do what they are supposed to do. If we can learn only ONE THING from Michael's death, it should be that doctors should be held accountable for the drugs administered, especially in what should be a controlled environment.

Maybe this will be Michael's legacy. Sure, he did some wrong things. So did Marilyn Monroe, so did Elvis Presley. What we have here is Legends "Gone too soon".

JMO.

May they RIP. :rose:

I'd like to know more about the doctor who approved Jackson for the tour. I think that's what started this mess: Jackson was in no condition to go on the tour and somebody paid him off.

[Nic99]

Loads? If there was even one, I have no doubt Jackson would have preferred it over paying Murray $150,000/month.

Yes I'm sure he would, but was he ever told about it from this Doctor?

[Mamie]

I'd like to know more about the doctor who approved Jackson for the tour. I think that's what started this mess. Jackson was in no condition to go on the tour and somebody paid him off.

I think the insurance company was Lloyds, right? I think they have their own group of doctors they use. So possibly not a chance that lab test results could have been "doctored" or switched or misrepresented. Of course if the Lloyds doctor used a lab in that area not affiliated with himself, personally, I guess AEG could have bought off the lab! It might sound far-fetched, but it's completely possible. JMO

P.S. By buying off the lab, I mean buying off the personnel in that lab that would be working that particular shift that the samples were received on, etc.--------not buying off the whole, complete lab.

[sunstar]

Tylenol PM. :thumbsup:

I was thinking of that too! Or some other OTC cold medicines! :smile: MOO

[Stellagant]

I think the insurance company was Lloyds, right? I think they have their own group of doctors they use. So possibly not a chance that lab test results could have been "doctored" or switched or misrepresented. Of course if the Lloyds doctor used a lab in that area not affiliated with himself, personally, I guess AEG could have bought off the lab! It might sound far-fetched, but it's completely possible. JMO

It is also possible the doctor was "bought off." A doctor was hired at $150,000/month and a chef was also hired to prepare healthy foods. These two measures lead me to believe the examining doctor wasn't convinced Jackson was healthy enough to do it.

[Nic99]

I think the insurance company was Lloyds, right? I think they have their own group of doctors they use. So possibly not a chance that lab test results could have been "doctored" or switched or misrepresented. Of course if the Lloyds doctor used a lab in that area not affiliated with himself, personally, I guess AEG could have bought off the lab! It might sound far-fetched, but it's completely possible. JMO

P.S. By buying off the lab, I mean buying off the personnel in that lab that would be working that particular shift that the samples were received on, etc.--------not buying off the whole, complete lab.

Its a possibility, but and its a big but, Lloyds of London have a huge reputation over here, so I think it is highly unlikely imo that would have happened.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I think the insurance company was Lloyds, right? I think they have their own group of doctors they use. So possibly not a chance that lab test results could have been "doctored" or switched or misrepresented. Of course if the Lloyds doctor used a lab in that area not affiliated with himself, personally, I guess AEG could have bought off the lab! It might sound far-fetched, but it's completely possible. JMO

P.S. By buying off the lab, I mean buying off the personnel in that lab that would be working that particular shift that the samples were received on, etc.--------not buying off the whole, complete lab.

I for one would love to see just what blood test (or urine) were performed...If they even did a tox screen?..which would not have included Diprivan...but then again..Benzo's and othe usuals..may have been tested for..but what the hay..they only wanted to know the basics.and the policy did not cover natural causes anyway..so what the heck ????

LMS

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, I hold people accountable for their actions. MJ had choices. He had the money to get the best help available. He chose not to.
It has been posted many times, the Dr.'s on tv have said it many times. You are out in under a minute....stop the med you wake up in seconds. Believe what you want. Done

I am not really sure we can say an addict chooses to act a certain way when they have this disease. I think the addiction itself compels them to do desperate things even if they know they shouldn't.

It seems if it were that simple then more drug addicts would seek help and be cured because plenty of them have money but from what I have read the percentages are small for those able to maintain a sober life.

imo

[Mamie]

That's not a sleeping pill.


Actually, Tylenol PM has a sleeping aid in it. I take it as well when I want help to get asleep and when my arthritis is bothering me. It has 25mg of Diphenhydramine HCI in each pill/tablet/caplet---whatever you want to call it. I take three of Simply Sleep when I just want sleep and the arthritis isn't so bad. The Simply Sleep is made by the same company and also has 25mg of the same sleeping aid in each.

[Mamie]

Its a possibility, but and its a big but, Lloyds of London have a huge reputation over here, so I think it is highly unlikely imo that would have happened.

That's what I'm trying to say also-----unlikely. I work in insurance now and we do have a few clients who are insured through Lloyds so I know the hoops they have to go through in order to be approved. Not everybody gets insured by them. JMO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Actually, Tylenol PM has a sleeping aid in it. I take it as well when I want help to get asleep and when my arthritis is bothering me. It has 25mg of Diphenhydramine HCI in each pill/tablet/caplet---whatever you want to call it. I take three of Simply Sleep when I just want sleep and the arthritis isn't so bad. The Simply Sleep is made by the same company and also has 25mg of the same sleeping aid in each.


Bolded~~~ that is like taking a Benedryl 25 mg cap along with regular Tylenol 325 mg...dont take the stuff..but have heard it has some lingering "dopey" side effects when trying to get mobile the next day..Guess it depends on your responses to meds....I dont like the after effects of most sleep aids..it tends to accumulate..due to half life..so avoid like the pleague....LOL..

Ativan has a short half life..so doesnt tend to have lingering after-effects,,,but like any benzos..will accumulate with constant use..

LMS:laugh:

[CinderL.]

I feel more sorry for the doctors' kids, who are owed tons of child support from their dead beat dad. Weak and needy.. gee wiz, from what?

It is just amazing to me with all of the years it takes to become a Dr. not to mention the money it costs, that these Dr.s would risk all of it. I know Dr. Murray was promised a ton of money so that was a big incentive, but what about all of the other Dr.'s that hand out prescriptions like candy?

[Mamie]

It is also possible the doctor was "bought off." A doctor was hired at $150,000/month and a chef was also hired to prepare healthy foods. These two measures lead me to believe the examining doctor wasn't convinced Jackson was healthy enough to do it.

But Lloyds has pretty stringent qualifications in order for them to issue a policy, so I don't think the doctor was bought off because it would have been a doctor within their group. I don't know that for certain that the doctor wasn't bought off but I can tell you if it proves to be true, heads are going to roll and Lloyds' reputation could suffer irreparable damage. JMO

[Stellagant]

Actually, Tylenol PM has a sleeping aid in it. I take it as well when I want help to get asleep and when my arthritis is bothering me. It has 25mg of Diphenhydramine HCI in each pill/tablet/caplet---whatever you want to call it. I take three of Simply Sleep when I just want sleep and the arthritis isn't so bad. The Simply Sleep is made by the same company and also has 25mg of the same sleeping aid in each.

25 mg of diphenhydramine is the same ingredient as Benedryl, an antihistamine. It can make some people sleepy but it doesn't keep them asleep.

If it were only that simple, sleep-deprived people wouldn't be resorting to such desperate measures as diprivan.

[ABC]

It is also possible the doctor was "bought off." A doctor was hired at $150,000/month and a chef was also hired to prepare healthy foods. These two measures lead me to believe the examining doctor wasn't convinced Jackson was healthy enough to do it.
Of course not. I have read that Jackson at 5'9 weighted 112 lbs. It was clear he was thin and fragile.

[daniel green]

That may be your opinion but I see them amazingly normal and grounded children. Especially having to live their lives as children of a famous entertainer.

snipped

imo

No way. There is nothing normal about their lives. One can say whatever, but to think these poor children had normal lives???????? :confused:

[Nic99]

But Lloyds has pretty stringent qualifications in order for them to issue a policy, so I don't think the doctor was bought off because it would have been a doctor within their group. I don't know that for certain that the doctor wasn't bought off but I can tell you if it proves to be true, heads are going to roll and Lloyds' reputation could suffer irreparable damage. JMO

Exactly, I don't think anyone would risk it imo. They have an excellent reputation and I believe are probably the best over here, so they would be found out and would be stupid to try imo.

[Mamie]

Bolded~~~ that is like taking a Benedryl 25 mg cap along with regular Tylenol 325 mg...dont take the stuff..but have heard it has some lingering "dopey" side effects when trying to get mobile the next day..Guess it depends on your responses to meds....I dont like the after effects of most sleep aids..it tends to accumulate..due to half life..so avoid like the pleague....LOL..

Ativan has a short half life..so doesnt tend to have lingering after-effects,,,but like any benzos..will accumulate with constant use..

LMS:laugh:

It doesn't have an effect on me getting up. Of course I'm in bed at 8:30-9 at night and get up at 5:30 in the morning but have no problem. And I've been taking it off and on for three years? Other sleep aids have had a side effect on me like the one I used to buy and each pill had 50mg of whatever it was. Maybe it was because I took two of those so actually had more in my system than with the Simply Sleep. I'm 62 and believe me for some reason there are nights that I should be able to sleep and I just lie awake tossing and turning so a little help is a big help on those nights. Otherwise I couldn't function effectively at work the next day.

So I am an advocate of Tylenol PM and Simply Sleep when you need it.

[GentleBreeze]

Pardon my ignorance, but, if MJ was looking for a drug that enabled him to sleep, why on earth didn't the Doctor give him one of the stronger sleeping pills rather than this highly dangerous drug. There must be loads of drugs out there, apart from anesthesia type drugs that would do the job, if not much better than this one?:confused:

If only we knew for certain, Nic.

I did notice in one of the articles I read where MJ was trying to obtain Diprivan from another Doctor that refused but he did say he did prescribe him with two different type of sleep aides. I have also wondered if those were the two pills that were supposedly found in his stomach.

I think for some reason, whether MJ really got 4 REM sleep, when he was under Diprivan he felt like he had. It may have been psychological and he thought his brain was at rest.

I have only had Diprivan administered one time and one second it seemed like I was awake and then I was asleep. When I woke up I did not have the feeling of being groggy or hungover from the drug.

imo

[Stellagant]

But Lloyds has pretty stringent qualifications in order for them to issue a policy, so I don't think the doctor was bought off because it would have been a doctor within their group. I don't know that for certain that the doctor wasn't bought off but I can tell you if it proves to be true, heads are going to roll and Lloyds' reputation could suffer irreparable damage. JMO

I'm not suggesting Lloyds or any other insurance provider is aware ahead of time that someone intends to be deceptive.

If a doctor is bought off or in any way failed in his duty, such deception will result in Lloyd's not paying out the policy benefit.

[daniel green]

I can verify it Lynda you can only have a few over the counter medicines with some drug in it used for meth. Again you must sign for it and show ID that your over the age of 18.

That's for over the counter sinus medicine. Not for scheduled meds, like you said before.

[CinderL.]

25 mg of diphenhydramine is the same ingredient as Benedryl, an antihistamine. It can make some people sleepy but it doesn't keep them asleep.

If it were only that simple, sleep-deprived people wouldn't be resorting to such desperate measures as diprivan.

Until MJ died, I never heard of anyone using diprovan as a sleep aid. Do you have a link to other sleep-diprived people using it? TIA

[Unperson1984]

Because the claim is not true and preposterous.

There are no state laws for showing ID for picking up a script, scheduled drug or not.

There are in California. When I've picked up scheduled drug prescriptions for my mother or MIL I am required to show ID and sign for them.

[daniel green]

I live in NJ and have even picked up Oxy for my dad ...never had to show any form of ID. BUT........ if I want the "good" Nyquil" it's kept behind the counter where the pharmacist is.. I have to show my drivers licence and sign for it...special form and everything. How stupid is that?

Because ppl cooking meth will use the ephedrine.

Some over-the-counter (OTC) cold and allergy medicines are being moved behind the counter at pharmacies nationwide as part of the fight against illegal drug production.

Under the Patriot Act signed by President Bush on March 9, 2006, all drug products that contain the ingredient pseudoephedrine must be kept behind the pharmacy counter and must be sold in limited quantities to consumers after they show identification and sign a logbook.

Pseudoephedrine is a drug found in both OTC and prescription products used to relieve nasal or sinus congestion caused by the common cold, sinusitis, hay fever, and other respiratory allergies. The drug is also a key ingredient in making methamphetamine--a powerful, highly addictive stimulant often produced illegally by "meth cooks" in home laboratories.

The new legal provisions for selling and purchasing pseudoephedrine-containing products are part of the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005, which was incorporated into the Patriot Act. These "anti-meth" pro visions introduce safeguards to make certain ingredients used in methamphetamine manufacturing more difficult to obtain in bulk and easier for law enforcement to track.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/21543601/Some-Cold-Medicines-Move-Behind-Counter

[Stellagant]

Until MJ died, I never heard of anyone using diprovan as a sleep aid. Do you have a link to other sleep-diprived people using it? TIA


I never said diprivan is a sleep aid. I said it is used as a sedative and have provided links.

[GentleBreeze]

Exactly, I don't think anyone would risk it imo. They have an excellent reputation and I believe are probably the best over here, so they would be found out and would be stupid to try imo.

I don't think the doctor who did the physical on MJ was unethical one bit. I think at that time MJ simply passed the test. There is no evidence that this doctor was unethical in fact he seems to be an outstanding doctor and highly known and respected.

There have been many many comments about how well MJ looked and was doing great in recent months.

Something happened and it seems it happened when Murray became his personal doctor.

imo

[Mamie]

25 mg of diphenhydramine is the same ingredient as Benedryl, an antihistamine. It can make some people sleepy but it doesn't keep them asleep.

If it were only that simple, sleep-deprived people wouldn't be resorting to such desperate measures as diprivan.

It says "nighttime sleep aid" next to the ingredient on the bottle. How much more clear does it need to get???? It does not say that it will keep anyone asleep, it says "Use for relief of occasional sleeplessness".

I also said that it works for ME. I do not know that it would work for everyone. Tolerance levels are different for everyone whether they are of a slight build or have more meat on their bones.

Yes, I know it's the same as Benedryl----and so what----it works for me, no side effects and so I like to live by the old saying......."If it ain't broke, don't fix it."