Friday 7/31 - First Do No Harm [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

Pattycake

07-31-2009, 05:10 AM

While I do empathize with Dr. Murray, my heart and allegiance is with Michael and the Jackson family.
Yes, 150.00.00 dollars a month is a good salary, but it is not worth compromising your ethics as a physician.

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

flipflop

07-31-2009, 08:34 AM

ellegna

07-31-2009, 08:49 AM

Did anyone happen to see this on CNN?
Dr Gupta took cameras into an operating room to show how propofol is administered and monitored. The patient stops breathing within moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GdGMOJw4c

crazymama

07-31-2009, 11:31 AM

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 11:59 AM

Been thinking out of left field thoughts-
Diprivan is the perfect pusher/controllers drug
-it's not a controlled substance
-it's not illegal to have
-abuse of the drug is hard to observe, detect
-no withdrawals, so addict does not believe he is addicted
-leaves user feeling refreshed, has different levels of
conscience to enjoy and explore
drawback for addict and plus for pusher-drugs causes
cravings, it is hard to obtain and difficult to use
addict would be at mercy of pusher/controller
Maybe his previous pusher/controller transferred him on
to another pusher/controller because it was getting out of
hand or too dangerous for the addict.
all my opinions

Good morning crazymama,

Your point is about it being "a perfect drug" is validated by Dr. CF Ward, who wrote this bulletin in Spring of 2008 suggesting better control and accountability for Propofol.

"Propofol: Dancing with a White Rabbit"

http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf

//snip//
A feeling of euphoria with no residual “hangover” might suggest propofol is a near perfect mood-altering drug, but it is one that possesses a very thin window separating the dreamy state from the
nonresponsive. The first case report of which I am aware that reported addiction to propofol appeared in 1992 and assured me that I was not the only anesthesiologist to notice this potential application of propofol. Subsequently, research published in 2004 noted that sleep deprivation, a reality of many of our lives, was to some extent erased during propofol anesthesia. This paper even generated an editorial, the title of which needs little explanation: “Rested and Refreshed after Anesthesia?”
//snip//

As Daniel Green pointed out, this article was eerily prescient.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:04 PM

Been thinking out of left field thoughts-
Diprivan is the perfect pusher/controllers drug
-it's not a controlled substance
-it's not illegal to have
-abuse of the drug is hard to observe, detect
-no withdrawals, so addict does not believe he is addicted
-leaves user feeling refreshed, has different levels of
conscience to enjoy and explore
drawback for addict and plus for pusher-drugs causes
cravings, it is hard to obtain and difficult to use
addict would be at mercy of pusher/controller
Maybe his previous pusher/controller transferred him on
to another pusher/controller because it was getting out of
hand or too dangerous for the addict.
all my opinions

I tend to believe that other than the anesthesiologist that accompanied him to Germany and may have done it in MJs home back then from time to time, MJ mostly was put under with Diprivan in doctor office settings or hospitals.

If the rumor is true that he had skin cancer and the dermatologist was removing them, then I am sure they used Diprivan to take him under during the procedure. He may have even asked that they use this particular method. In one article I read said that in the autopsy it could be seen that there had been removal of skin cancers from his chest. I will try to locate that link again. So this would have been another reason for the Diprivan to be given. That is IF true.

It may have been as simple as MJ did not want to keep going to a doctor's office to get the Diprivan and thought if he had a licensed physician giving it in his home who monitored him throughout as they had done in previous settings imo, he thought he would be just fine.

I don't think it was necessarily the Diprivan that was the culprit. It was Conrad Murray who seems to have not known one thing about administering this drug or that his patient needed to be monitored constantly throughout.

I believe if it had been administered properly and MJ closely monitored throughout, with the doctor seeing to it that all necessary equipment was at his disposal if needed, MJ would be alive today.

imo

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 12:04 PM

Jackson Spent Last Hours in Doctor's Bed

Posted Jul 31st 2009 1:12AM by TMZ Staff

The reports that Michael Jackson spent the last night in his bedroom are not true -- we've learned Jackson spent his last hours in Dr. Conrad Murray's bedroom ... in Dr. Murray's bed.

Multiple law enforcement sources tell us Jackson did not want people going in and out of his room, so he used Dr. Murray's bedroom for his IV Propofol. We're told Dr. Murray administered the Propofol to Jackson hours before he died, while the singer lay in Murray's bed.

Law enforcement believes Dr. Murray may have been using his room almost nightly to administer Propofol to Jackson. Emergency workers found an IV stand, an empty IV bag and oxygen tanks in Dr. Murray's room. And as we first reported, the Monday after Jackson died, cops found a stash of Propofol and other drugs hidden in a closet connected to Dr. Murray's room.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/31/michae...-died-houston/

I have a whole lot of questions for this doctor. Was MJ moved out of doctors bed and placed in his own before calling 911? I would hope that a doctor would know that the body releases the body fluids upon death.

Another question is like another poster, why subject the children to what this doctor caused. I certainly hope that the last picture that they have in their minds is better than their father hooked up to a iv pole and a doctor trying to bring a DEAD MJ back to life.

This is becoming more bizarre by the hour. No wonder they impounded his car right away. Oh lord.

Oh and I had the chance to finally watch "They Don't Care about Us". The dance moves that he did at time in the video are almost the same moves as you see in his rehersal video.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 12:06 PM

Been thinking out of left field thoughts-
Diprivan is the perfect pusher/controllers drug
-it's not a controlled substance
-it's not illegal to have
-abuse of the drug is hard to observe, detect
-no withdrawals, so addict does not believe he is addicted
-leaves user feeling refreshed, has different levels of
conscience to enjoy and exploredrawback for addict and plus for pusher-drugs causes
cravings, it is hard to obtain and difficult to use
addict would be at mercy of pusher/controller
Maybe his previous pusher/controller transferred him on
to another pusher/controller because it was getting out of
hand or too dangerous for the addict. all my opinions

Good Morning crazy...Interesting thought processes here....I do have some thoughts on some of you conclusions..

red~~~True..not controlled in the same sense as narcotics or other meds that can lead to addictions, or abuse..however..In a way it does have some "Control" features..1) NOT perscription medications 2) NOT available at Parmacies 3) Only available in "Medical facilities 4) Only can be ordered by physician or physician use 5) Only available in Surgical Units for use by trained personel

dark green~~~ Not so sure on this one...yes a person when wakes up thinks they feel refreshed..but in actuality..constant uses would take its toll as it seems MJ complained about..and even observers of MJ said he wasnt acting the same, (chef Tai)..MJ phoning around Nurse Lee and Dr. Deepak C...complaining..Appetite off, losing weight etc..

dark blue~~~~ You got that right..if he wished to keep his "sleep Therapy" he only had Dr. M. to give it..as it appears Dr. Klein either stopped it or refused further "treatments"...

black~~~~ I agree 100%..as I do believe Dr. Klein believed his involvment could prove to be exposed..and he knows it was unnacceptable medical practice..

I hope I have not confused with my rainbow of colors and comments.. Your post had various points I wanted to make comment on....

LMS:biggrin:

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:18 PM

Good morning crazymama,

Your point is about it being "a perfect drug" is validated by Dr. CF Ward, who wrote this bulletin in Spring of 2008 suggesting better control and accountability for Propofol.

"Propofol: Dancing with a White Rabbit"

http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf

//snip//
A feeling of euphoria with no residual “hangover” might suggest propofol is a near perfect mood-altering drug, but it is one that possesses a very thin window separating the dreamy state from the
nonresponsive. The first case report of which I am aware that reported addiction to propofol appeared in 1992 and assured me that I was not the only anesthesiologist to notice this potential application of propofol. Subsequently, research published in 2004 noted that sleep deprivation, a reality of many of our lives, was to some extent erased during propofol anesthesia. This paper even generated an editorial, the title of which needs little explanation: “Rested and Refreshed after Anesthesia?”
//snip//

As Daniel Green pointed out, this article was eerily prescient.

imo

It fits to the effects of the drug that people who surrounded him during his last days described him as enthusiastic.

crazymama

07-31-2009, 12:21 PM

morning all,
Oh I think Dr. Klein was the original pusher/controller/devil too and
I think towards the end he realized it was out of control and that
MJ, due to his age, it was taking his toll. MJ was not worth the risk
to him anymore. This my opinions here.
Maybe thats why its all taking so long to arrest Dr. Murray and why
he said he was last man standing. Maybe he is spilling the beans.
Also, I think there was some drug trading going on, maybe without
MJ's knowledge. Too many drugs for one person, I believe.
all my thoughts.
Dancing with the White Rabbit-thanks for link.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:22 PM

I have a whole lot of questions for this doctor. Was MJ moved out of doctors bed and placed in his own before calling 911? I would hope that a doctor would know that the body releases the body fluids upon death.

Another question is like another poster, why subject the children to what this doctor caused. I certainly hope that the last picture that they have in their minds is better than their father hooked up to a iv pole and a doctor trying to bring a DEAD MJ back to life.

This is becoming more bizarre by the hour. No wonder they impounded his car right away. Oh lord.

Oh and I had the chance to finally watch "They Don't Care about Us". The dance moves that he did at time in the video are almost the same moves as you see in his rehearsal video.

I have watched that video too and you are right it is almost the same and they have even stated that MJ was adding new dance steps to some of his song and dance routines.

Yes, it is all very eerie isn't it.

I think by Kai telling what went on in that home before she left and what happened after she came back is very revealing.

Kai has given us all a glimpse into that wonderful home that was filled with happiness and the bond she saw between these exceptional children and their gracious father. It is like a breath of fresh air to see Kai imo. I know the children are delighted that Kai has come forward with the truth about their family. Paris herself wanted the truth known so much she stood up and told the world. She has to be proud of Kai that she too has spoken up and also told the world about this adorable family who all had such excited hopes and dreams to see their father perform again and how enthusiastic MJ was.

That is.........until Murray came into the picture. Then everything changed including Michael. When Kai came back although it had only been three weeks, MJ was thinner. Someone was not watching out for him and making sure he was nourishing his body correctly. She noticed that MJ was more lethargic and struggling. Yet Murray the licensed physician apparently was blind to it all. He just kept letting MJ go further and further down.:cursing:

IMO, Kai is the truth teller. She tells how happy everyone was in that home until she came back and started noticing Murray bringing tanks down each morning. Things had changed and what had changed is Murray being there.

I feel all along CM was never properly administering any of the diprivan correctly and now I even wonder what else he was prescribing to him to take knowing that MJ had a drug addition.:rolleyes:

Something was wrong..... it was evident even to MJs Chef that MJ had changed since Murray had arrived. A man doesn't go from looking forward enthusiastically to his future and the future of his children to becoming thin and disheveled, disoriented in this short period of time. And I think MJ knew it too and tried to reach out when he called both his doctor friend and Nurse Lee shortly before his death.

I think it is wonderful that Kai lets the world know what kind and giving children MJ had.

imo

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:24 PM

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:25 PM

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 12:32 PM

It fits to the effects of the drug that people who surrounded him during his last days described him as enthusiastic.

Good morning who_is_it,

Yes, it does, doesn't it?

My common sense tells me that long term or repeated use of anesthetics is probably ill advised, under any circumstances. A quick google search brings up concerns about repeated use of anesthetics in the young, but I don't have time right now to figure out where to look for any studies on its possible effects among adults.

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 12:35 PM

I certainly hope this investigation goes beyond the drugs and propofol; something was certainly not right including the phone calls he made to Nurse Lee and Dr Chopra 4 and 2 days prior to his death respectively. JMHO

Oh I think it has gone beyond the drugs that have been used. I think this is why they have used the word "addict" in their warrants. IMO, this is a criminal investigation which will lead to lord knows where.

No matter if this doctor is charged or not, he sold his ethics for 5 grand a day and in the process he lost a patient to a very questionable death.

I have some thoughts but... I have to dwell on them a little longer.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:35 PM

Some posters said Kai Chase appears to be the most honest one who spoke out.

I didn't listen to the interview and didn't read the transcripts yet but got a different picture by what I saw on her website: just another fame ***** who lolls in her bed with strawberries and is pleased she can add "Michael Jackson" to her "about...".

Well all I can say if you had actually heard her in her interviews you would probably have a different outlook.

Kai is very gracious, warm and genuine imo. I find her the most credible of all others who have spoken out. A Chef that is in the home from early morning to late in the evening knows what goes on in that household.

She has no reason to get her 15 minutes of fame. MJ certainly isnt her only famous client by any means. I do think it was important to her that she reiterates what Paris has said about her loving father since Kai saw it for herself. I am sure Paris is very proud that Kai has spoken out about MJ and his children being totally a loving and giving family. But then everyone that has really known them closely saw the same.

I saw nothing tabloidish about her speaking. She is a very calm woman who feels deeply for others imo.

Just the kind of Chef the children would want.:smile:

imo

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 12:37 PM

Jackson Spent Last Hours in Doctor's Bed

Posted Jul 31st 2009 1:12AM by TMZ Staff

The reports that Michael Jackson spent the last night in his bedroom are not true -- we've learned Jackson spent his last hours in Dr. Conrad Murray's bedroom ... in Dr. Murray's bed.

Multiple law enforcement sources tell us Jackson did not want people going in and out of his room, so he used Dr. Murray's bedroom for his IV Propofol. We're told Dr. Murray administered the Propofol to Jackson hours before he died, while the singer lay in Murray's bed.

Law enforcement believes Dr. Murray may have been using his room almost nightly to administer Propofol to Jackson. Emergency workers found an IV stand, an empty IV bag and oxygen tanks in Dr. Murray's room. And as we first reported, the Monday after Jackson died, cops found a stash of Propofol and other drugs hidden in a closet connected to Dr. Murray's room.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/31/michae...-died-houston/

This was reported very early on and then nothing just like when it was reported Prince was in the room when he collapsed..I just wish for once when it is reported then stick to it or do not print it...also the women chef said Prince never went upstairs the bodyguard did...so who is telling the truth...I am sure some of their report is true but they have to throw in some extra to make it better reading..IMO

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:38 PM

MJ signs up for 10 concerts
It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef Douglas does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
Kai Chase says MJ was eating properly; she left for 3 weeks to come back to an MJ that had lost noticeable weight
Phone call made to Nurse Lee 4 days before his death
Phone call made to Dr Chopra 2 days before his death
Reported that MJ's veins collapsed - no sign of this prior to May
MJ dead a month after Murray enters the scene
Surveillance tape missing
AEG hires someone to 'watch" MJ's house.
This someone follows "another someone" a mile away from home who dumps prescription meds / prescription pads
This someone turns over evidence to Craig Rivera a month later
Dr. Tohme Tohme has $5.5M in CASH
Dr. Murray at least $780k in debt

I don't think AEG has something to do something with Dr. Murray's actions and Michael's death. I also don't think they've exploited him. Other people said a lot of input for the show came by Michael himself. I don't think he was forced to do something he didn't want to do. What the number of concerts is concerned I could imagine that there was an unwritten or even unspoken deal he would stop at a time he's exhausted... and the insurance would pay.

red: This is what I'm concerned about.

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 12:40 PM

Well all I can say if you had actually heard her in her interviews you would probably have a different outlook.

Kai is very gracious, warm and genuine imo. I find her the most credible of all others who have spoken out. A Chef that is in the home from early morning to late in the evening knows what goes on in that household.

She has no reason to get her 15 minutes of fame. MJ certainly isnt her only famous client by any means. I do think it was important to her that she reiterates what Paris has said about her loving father since Kai saw it for herself. I am sure Paris is very proud that Kai has spoken out about MJ and his children being totally a loving and giving family. But then everyone that has really known them closely saw the same.

I saw nothing tabloidish about her speaking. She is a very calm woman who feels deeply for others imo.

Just the kind of Chef the children would want.:smile:

imo

is this the women that said Prince did not go upstairs because I was very happy to hear even if the doctor ask him to he had not but the bodyguard did..

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 12:40 PM

What really happened :confused:

-MJ signs up for 10 concerts
-It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
-MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
-Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
-Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
-Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
-People close to MJ at the time sees no signs of drug abuse
-Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
-Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef Douglas does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
-Kai Chase says MJ was eating properly; she left for 3 weeks to come back to an MJ that had lost noticeable weight
-Phone call made to Nurse Lee 4 days before his death
-Phone call made to Dr Chopra 2 days before his death
-Reported that MJ's veins collapsed - no sign of this prior to May
-MJ dead a month after Murray enters the scene
-Surveillance tape missing
-AEG hires someone to 'watch" MJ's house.
-This someone follows "another someone" a mile away from home who dumps prescription meds / prescription pads
-This someone turns over evidence to Craig Rivera a month later
-Dr. Tohme Tohme has $5.5M in CASH
-Dr. Murray at least $780k in debt

Nice list Athena..and I am sure it is much shorter than the one the "Investigative' team has...Its no wonder they are having trouble figuring out just who is the primary enabler at the time of MJ's death..as it seems there is a long list of facilitators for years in MJ's life!!

I also believe, even after they figure out who is directly responsible, there will be more cases that will bubble up in regards to "Perscription Abuses" facilitated by many...I hope this whole things puts some sort of deterent foreward..to stop this practice...

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:41 PM

Well all I can say if you had actually heard her in her interviews you would probably have a different outlook.

Kai is very gracious, warm and genuine imo. I find her the most credible of all others who have spoken out. A Chef that is in the home from early morning to late in the evening knows what goes on in that household.

She has no reason to get her 15 minutes of fame. MJ certainly isnt her only famous client by any means. I do think it was important to her that she reiterates what Paris has said about her loving father since Kai saw it for herself. I am sure Paris is very proud that Kai has spoken out about MJ and his children being totally a loving and giving family. But then everyone that has really known them closely saw the same.

I saw nothing tabloidish about her speaking. She is a very calm woman who feels deeply for others imo.

Just the kind of Chef the children would want.:smile:

imo

I will watch the interview on youtube or at least read the transcripts later.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:47 PM

is this the women that said Prince did not go upstairs because I was very happy to hear even if the doctor ask him to he had not but the bodyguard did..

Yes and that makes sense to me.

He may have yelled for Prince since Prince seems to be respected by those who are there as the go to person. Maybe it was Prince who ran to get the security guard.

I know the Chef, bodyguards and maids would have gathered the children up and held them back so Murray could work on their father and they had to know that the ambulance was on its way too.

I am glad she cleared that up. At first it was said that MJ was in the living room and collapsed. Lots of misinformation out there and it is all in how it is worded in the media too that causes a lot of it.

imo

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:48 PM

Good morning who_is_it,

Yes, it does, doesn't it?

My common sense tells me that long term or repeated use of anesthetics is probably ill advised, under any circumstances. A quick google search brings up concerns about repeated use of anesthetics in the young, but I don't have time right now to figure out where to look for any studies on its possible effects among adults.

Hi Zenyatta!

"rested and refreshed" and "mood-altering" perfectly fits to the statements of the people who watched him rehearsing. I always thought: "Can't be that he's fit and nobody noticed he took drugs..." but after I've read the information from your link I believe it.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 12:49 PM

I will watch the interview on youtube or at least read the transcripts later.

Thank you. I think you can watch the three part interview on GMAs site.

imo

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 12:52 PM

Michael Jackson's son, 12, appeared composed beyond his years at his father's memorial. And he has surfaced as a quiet leader inside his home, where workers respected him, even before his father's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackson/story?id=8215396&page=1

I have no link and can not remember who was reporting it but IIRC one of the family members said Prince and Blanket did not want to go to the public memorial but Paris told them they needed to for their daddy so if true it sounds he raised those kids in such a loving manner and carrying and her standing up when Rev Sharpton made that statement about their daddy she was the first one to stand and clap..some very smart kids he raised and I do not care what anyone says you can not have good kids if you do not have a good parent..he did a darn good job other than trusting vultures to watch over him I know he was smart and figured he would wake but I am also sure he trusted someone was watching him and he would see his babys again..HE PAID we all know that much..but those kids are not stupid and they really surprised alot of people on that day...ALL JMO

When they said the boys did not want to go it was that they were really missing their daddy and had left the private funeral..If I can find it I will link it but I know it was said..

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 12:52 PM

What really happened :confused:

-MJ signs up for 10 concerts
-It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
-MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
-Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
-Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
-Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
-People close to MJ at the time sees no signs of drug abuse
-Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
-Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef Douglas does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
-Kai Chase says MJ was eating properly; she left for 3 weeks to come back to an MJ that had lost noticeable weight
-Phone call made to Nurse Lee 4 days before his death
-Phone call made to Dr Chopra 2 days before his death
-Reported that MJ's veins collapsed - no sign of this prior to May
-Reported that MJ possibly had undigested pills in his stomach ?
-MJ dead a month after Murray enters the scene
-Surveillance tape missing
-AEG hires someone to 'watch" MJ's house.
-This someone follows "another someone" a mile away from home who dumps prescription meds / prescription pads
-This someone turns over evidence to Craig Rivera a month later
-Dr. Tohme Tohme has $5.5M in CASH
-Dr. Murray at least $780k in debt

see red: We had talked about this before. -- What would you conclude? Why they would have hired to someone to watch the house? Do you think they found Dr. Murray suspicious, too?

cutiepatootie61

07-31-2009, 12:53 PM

What really happened :confused:

-MJ signs up for 10 concerts
-It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
-MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
-Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
-Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
-Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
-People close to MJ at the time sees no signs of drug abuse
-Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
-Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef Douglas does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
-Kai Chase says MJ was eating properly; she left for 3 weeks to come back to an MJ that had lost noticeable weight
-Phone call made to Nurse Lee 4 days before his death
-Phone call made to Dr Chopra 2 days before his death
-Reported that MJ's veins collapsed - no sign of this prior to May
-Reported that MJ possibly had undigested pills in his stomach ?
-MJ dead a month after Murray enters the scene
-Surveillance tape missing
-AEG hires someone to 'watch" MJ's house.
-This someone follows "another someone" a mile away from home who dumps prescription meds / prescription pads
-This someone turns over evidence to Craig Rivera a month later
-Dr. Tohme Tohme has $5.5M in CASH
-Dr. Murray at least $780k in debt

Athena what have I missed????? What is this about dumping drugs and turning them over to CR???? When was this disclosed??

Thanks

crazymama

07-31-2009, 12:56 PM

Dr. Drew that does the Intervention show said that script drugs
are harder to detect a user abusing. The user looks normal, but
the toll on the body is still occurring.
Look how much was found out about diprivan here, there is
no way any of these doctors that gave it to him didn't know that
it was slowly killing him. No way the doctors did not know this
was an addiction and not a sleep therapy.
all my opinions

tiptop

07-31-2009, 12:58 PM

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 01:01 PM

I have no link and can not remember who was reporting it but IIRC one of the family members said Prince and Blanket did not want to go to the public memorial but Paris told them they needed to for their daddy so if true it sounds he raised those kids in such a loving manner and carrying and her standing up when Rev Sharpton made that statement about their daddy she was the first one to stand and clap..some very smart kids he raised and I do not care what anyone says you can not have good kids if you do not have a good parent..he did a darn good job other than trusting vultures to watch over him I know he was smart and figured he would wake but I am also sure he trusted someone was watching him and he would see his babys again..HE PAID we all know that much..but those kids are not stupid and they really surprised alot of people on that day...ALL JMO

When they said the boys did not want to go it was that they were really missing their daddy and had left the private funeral..If I can find it I will link it but I know it was said..

It's not what you mentioned... but I've found this by the Godfather Mark Lester:

"Michael Jackson's son Blanket asks godfather heart-breaking question 'Where's my Daddy gone? On holiday?'"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/21/michael-jackson-s-son-blanket-asks-godfather-heart-breaking-question-where-s-my-daddy-gone-on-holiday-115875-21535855/

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 01:03 PM

I have no link and can not remember who was reporting it but IIRC one of the family members said Prince and Blanket did not want to go to the public memorial but Paris told them they needed to for their daddy so if true it sounds he raised those kids in such a loving manner and carrying and her standing up when Rev Sharpton made that statement about their daddy she was the first one to stand and clap..some very smart kids he raised and I do not care what anyone says you can not have good kids if you do not have a good parent..he did a darn good job other than trusting vultures to watch over him I know he was smart and figured he would wake but I am also sure he trusted someone was watching him and he would see his babys again..HE PAID we all know that much..but those kids are not stupid and they really surprised alot of people on that day...ALL JMO

When they said the boys did not want to go it was that they were really missing their daddy and had left the private funeral..If I can find it I will link it but I know it was said..

I didn't read that but I do remember reading that Blanket did not really understand why they were there that day and still thought his daddy was on vacation or gone somewhere on a holiday.

imo

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 01:06 PM

Question: How long do undigested pills stay in the stomach after ingestion? Lynda ?????

Hair is capable of recording medium to long-term or high dosage substance abuse. Chemicals in the bloodstream may be transferred to the growing hair and stored in the follicle, providing a rough timeline of drug intake events. Head hair grows at rate of approximately 1 to 1.5 cm a month, and so cross sections from different sections of the follicle can give estimates as to when a substance was ingested. Testing for drugs in hair is not standard throughout the population. The darker and coarser the hair the more drug that will be found in the hair. If two people consumed the same amount of drugs, the person with the darker and coarser hair will have more drug in their hair than the lighter haired person when tested.

http://www.edinformatics.com/forensic/forensic_toxicology.htm

Pills in stomach..its a really complicated questions..as we dont know what pills they were...Time Release..coated..was it taken with fod, or with something that may coat the stomach..we just dont know Athena..That will be left up to the coroner to eplain what was there and estimated time of ingestion to figure it out..Sorry..no help on even speculating on that one..

I am sure they will find residual in MJ's hair and apparantly is is located in fat tissue as well...So once again, since most here believe MJ had been abusing this drug for a while...multiple dosings..I am sure they will find it..

LMS

LMS

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 01:07 PM

I'm starting to get inundated with all this information. And confused. lol

Did Michael come downstairs at all the morning of his death? I thought I remembered the chef saying his juice and granola weren't taken up to him like normal on the morning of his death. I guess I assumed when he got into bed in the wee hours (or whenever it was) he did not ever get back up. But then there is the talk about him collapsing. Where did he collapse? My head is spinning....

No he did not come down nor did Murray to get his specially prepared health drink and granola.

Kai would prepare it and Murray would take it up to him in the mornings.

I think him collapsing in the living room was misinformation.

imo

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 01:12 PM

Michael Jackson's Kids Formed Prayer Circle as Father Fell Ill:crying:

On June 25, Kai Chase, a professionally trained chef who has worked with Macy Gray and Jamie Foxx, said she knew something was up when Murray didn't come downstairs to get the juices and granola he routinely brought Jackson each morning.

"I walked into the hall and I saw the children there. The daughter was crying. I saw paramedics running up the stairs."

Then, a small group consisting of the children, their nanny, a housekeeper and Chase held hands and began to pray, Chase recalled
http://www.usmagazine.com/news/michael-jacksons-kids-formed-prayer-circle-as-father-fell-ill-2009297

The late pop star’s three children – Prince Michael I, 12, Paris, 11, and seven-year-old Prince Michael II, also known as ‘Blanket’ – joined hands and prayed with household staff as paramedics battled to save him.

Michael Jackson’s children formed prayer circle as he lay dying

Read more: http://www.inquisitr.com/31218/michael-jackson%e2%80%99s-children-formed-prayer-circle-as-he-lay-dying/#ixzz0MrFYJ5Z3
The late pop star’s three children – Prince Michael I, 12, Paris, 11, and seven-year-old Prince Michael II, also known as ‘Blanket’ – joined hands and prayed with household staff as paramedics battled to save him

cutiepatootie61

07-31-2009, 01:13 PM

Craig Rivera is an Investigative Journalist (Geraldo's brother). On Geraldo at Large - he disclosed this information; I believe it was 7/18 or 7/19 and said that "the someone" gave him bottles of oxycontin and pre-written prescriptions by two different doctors for more oxycontin the previous Friday before the show aired. When he attempted to contact the two doctors they were no longer at the location printed at the top of the prescriptions. The two doctors apparently had shared a practice and there were two different signatures on the prescription pads (by each doctor). He believes the prescription pad(s) was possibly stolen at one time. There was a former prosecutor also on that show and Geraldo had asked her to put CR in touch with someone he could turn this evidence over to. Haven't heard anything more about it. I don't have a link because Geraldo does not provide transcripts. I did summarize the show the night I watched it.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure I believe that somone cleaned up the room and only removed a bottle of pills and two scripts. Seems the LE was able to retrieve bags of evidence from the home 2 days later, wouldn't that too have been ridden of by this "someone?" Should be easy to trace down the doctors who belong to those pads, stolen or not. moo

tiptop

07-31-2009, 01:17 PM

No he did not come down nor did Murray to get his specially prepared health drink and granola.

Kai would prepare it and Murray would take it up to him in the mornings.

I think him collapsing in the living room was misinformation.

imo

Thanks. There's so much out there it's hard to keep up with it all.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 01:36 PM

Honestly reading her website -- she did not "need" MJ. I would venture to guess that is why MJ wanted her to work for him. JMO

Two-part interview with Kai Chase from "The Today Show"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32216502#32216502

Thank you, Athena! I've watched it and also the interview with the guy.

I think she went on the show for the side effect to promote her chef qualities but I believe her words to be honest.

Like that part that she didn't knew she would work for Michael Jackson when interviewed.

She said he was sad the day before his death but Dorian Holley and Frank DiLeo said he was enthusiastic and happy. Both men seem TOTALLY genuine to me. I believe their words, too. Probably MJ had extreme mood swings as a consequence of the drug abuse.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 01:44 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 01:47 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 01:48 PM

The chef that is writing a book? Wants to include all the recipes she made for MJ...that's a good reason to seek her 15 minutes. IMO

Uh huh, that one.

Who wants to title said book "Fit for a King." :rolleyes:

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 01:53 PM

The chef that is writing a book? Wants to include all the recipes she made for MJ...that's a good reason to seek her 15 minutes. IMO

Good morning TDT!

She's also indicated a desire to continue to work for the Jackson's as their chef. imo.

I am glad that she cleared up the misconception that Prince witnessed resuscitation attempts to his dad.

And at least she wasn't committing any ethics violations by appearing on talk shows, which is more than I can say for Dr. Klein and nurse Cherilyn Lee. I think they both violated HIPPA laws. imo

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 01:56 PM

Well all I can say if you had actually heard her in her interviews you would probably have a different outlook.

Kai is very gracious, warm and genuine imo. I find her the most credible of all others who have spoken out. A Chef that is in the home from early morning to late in the evening knows what goes on in that household.

She has no reason to get her 15 minutes of fame. MJ certainly isnt her only famous client by any means. I do think it was important to her that she reiterates what Paris has said about her loving father since Kai saw it for herself. I am sure Paris is very proud that Kai has spoken out about MJ and his children being totally a loving and giving family. But then everyone that has really known them closely saw the same.

I saw nothing tabloidish about her speaking. She is a very calm woman who feels deeply for others imo.

Just the kind of Chef the children would want.:smile:

imo

Like I posted above in reply to Athena I've watched it now. I do think she's honest but not without the side purpose to promote her chef qualities.

It makes me so so so sad and angry to hear again that he was extremely excited about his tour and practised dance steps at home. It's a tragedy he was so close but couldn't experience it anymore.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 01:57 PM

Good morning TDT!

She's also indicated a desire to continue to work for the Jackson's as their chef. imo.

I am glad that she cleared up the misconception that Prince witnessed resuscitation attempts to his dad.

And at least she wasn't committing any ethics violations by appearing on talk shows, which is more than I can say for Dr. Klein and nurse Cherilyn Lee. I think they both violated HIPPA laws. imo

Yes, all what she said remained dignified.

I think she really didn't know about the purpose of the oxygen tanks. I've wouldn't have known, either.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:02 PM

Earl Paysinger, acting chief of the Los Angeles Police Department, said his agency was not investigating the concert promoters. “AEG is not the subject of an investigation by the L.A.P.D.,” Chief Paysinger said. The Los Angeles police is one of several law enforcement agencies involved in the investigation, including the Drug Enforcement Administration. Federal officials did not immediately respond to an interview request on Thursday. The search warrant names seven doctors who treated Mr. Jackson, including Dr. Murray, and lists 19 aliases Mr. Jackson is accused of using to procure illegal prescriptions. Miranda Sevcik, a spokeswoman for Dr. Murray, said AEG hired her client in May at a rate of $150,000 a month to attend to the singer during the 50-concert comeback series in London. Ms. Sevcik said Mr. Murray was never paid by AEG.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/us/31jackson.html?_r=1

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:02 PM

The chef that is writing a book? Wants to include all the recipes she made for MJ...that's a good reason to seek her 15 minutes. IMO

And why would she exclude those recipes?:confused: I am sure she will have favorite recipes that others liked as well.

imo

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:03 PM

Poor, poor child. A perfect example of the child becoming the parent when the parent is an addict.

How sad.

I believe he was clean for a longer while. Other people reported he led a healthy life in Ireland.

My personal impression was he was doing drugs at the end of the trial (what is understandable imo) and started again now shortly before his death.

His kids weren't surrounded by a constantly drugged up father imo.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:03 PM

snipped

She's also indicated a desire to continue to work for the Jackson's as their chef. imo.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well, what a shock. Didn't know that. So, that's what it is.

Thx.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:04 PM

Truely is....well to MJ's credit, he did give his children a better childhood than his.

But, it's amazing how the history of dyfunction and abuse repeats itself in other ways.

I disagree that their lives were better than his.

And, yeah, dysfunction, the gift that keeps on giving.

Poor child.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:06 PM

Yes, all what she said remained dignified.

I think she really didn't know about the purpose of the oxygen tanks. I've wouldn't have known, either.

Me either. I would have just accepted that it had to be something legitimate for the doctor to be using them. Heck I even wondered when I first heard this if he slept under an oxygen tent because it made him breath better at night.

But I really don't know anything about these tanks except people use them that have breathing problems.

imo

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:07 PM

But the homicide investigation continues. Law enforcement authorities have subpoenaed medical and billing records and other documents from several other doctors who treated Mr. Jackson.

From the NYT link above.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:10 PM

Me either. I would have just accepted that it had to be something legitimate for the doctor to be using them. Heck I even wondered when I first heard this if he slept under an oxygen tent because it made him breath better at night.

But I really don't know anything about these tanks except people use them that have breathing problems.

imo

You know what? When the other chef who quit his job spoke out and mentioned the oxygen tanks I didn't get what they have to do with the propol. I didn't dare to ask here at the board because I thought everone knows... -- it's just me who doesn't know, LOL.:D

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:11 PM

Oh I think it has gone beyond the drugs that have been used. I think this is why they have used the word "addict" in their warrants. IMO, this is a criminal investigation which will lead to lord knows where.
snipped.

Yep.

The word addict in the warrants is very interesting. LAPD and DEA know that MJ was an addict, know 19 aliases he was using to procure drugs and no telling how far reaching the investigation will go.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:12 PM

Coroner Gets More Jackson Doctor Files

(...)
"But now Dr. Metzger's lawyer, Harland Braun, says Dr. Metzger actually went to Jackson's house in April and the singer specifically asked about using Propofol at home, and the doctor advised against it. Braun told us he believed Jackson was asking Dr. Metzger to provide the drug to Jackson but the doctor declined."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/31/michael-jackson-dr-allan-metzger-propofol-la-county-coroner/

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:12 PM

If she didn't, she wouldn't have worked for him. She goes where the money is...it's a business. imo

Yep.

And she wouldn't be trying to go work for the Jacksons now, either.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 02:13 PM

Good morning, and I agree!

Hey TDT, you seem to have a really good grasp of the medical side of this stuff.

I'm wondering what the long term effects of repeated anesthesia are. I've tried to research it, and haven't found much except concerns for long term effects in the young, and possible cognitive effects in the elderly.

I'm sure one of the reasons it's not researched is that there probably aren't too many instances where people would be put under anesthesia over and over again, night after night for any prolonged period of time. (The only incidence I can think that possibly compares is the uses of anesthesia in repeated electroshock treatments, which is not a good venue for comparison, because it would be too difficult to know if anesthesia exacerbated the cognitive side effects of the treatment itself -- induced seizures).

Common sense tells me that since going under general anesthesia with Diprivan equates to being put in a coma, that brain cells and neurons are extremely affected, and that it can't possibly be without potential harmful side effects.

So, if Michael was using anesthesia on and off over long periods of time, and repeatedly, what affect did this have on his cognition? his judgment? his immune system?

Cherilyn Lee reports that Michael had those feelings of being hot and cold. Was that from the Diprivan? Or Diprivan reacting with some other drug he was using?

Would you know of anyone who might be able to answer that question? :smile:

I'm beginning to sense a "hang 'em high" attitude with regard to Dr. Murray. I hope there's not such a frenzy to do this that everything gets piled on him, and others who may have contributed to Michael's deterioration and death are forgotten and let off the hook. imo

Eagleeye

07-31-2009, 02:23 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:24 PM

snipped

I'm sure one of the reasons it's not researched is that there probably aren't too many instances where people would be put under anesthesia over and over again, night after night for any prolonged period of time. (The only incidence I can think that possibly compares is the uses of anesthesia in repeated electroshock treatments, which is not a good venue for comparison, because it would be too difficult to know if anesthesia exacerbated the cognitive side effects of the treatment itself -- induced seizures).

Common sense tells me that since going under general anesthesia with Diprivan equates to being put in a coma, that brain cells and neurons are extremely affected, and that it can't possibly be without potential harmful side effects.

So, if Michael was using anesthesia on and off over long periods of time, and repeatedly, what affect did this have on his cognition? his judgment? his immune system?

snipped

Those are fascinating questions.

And the anesthesia that patients are going to have during ECT is different--it's a muscle relaxer, no? And no way to tell what cognitive abilities might be a result of what, in that case. But fascinating question.

I bet that there are absolutely no studies done to find out the effects of long-term use of anesthesia because nobody does it. It's too much of a risk to be under anesthesia at all.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 02:25 PM

I disagree that their lives were better than his.

And, yeah, dysfunction, the gift that keeps on giving.

Poor child.

Daniel Green and TNT, I agree. I guess time will tell, depending on what kind of help they receive now.

I am hoping and praying that they get a really good psychologist, and not someone looking to hitch their wagon to the Jackson star. It's crucial and imo will make all of the difference. (PLEASE don't let Joe anywhere near the process -- he would probably pick the clinician with the best dance moves....)

I feel the most sorrow and concern for poor Blanket. Attention will be focused now on Paris and Prince adjusting to the fact that they have a birth mother, and poor Blanket's birth certificate even reads that he has none.

Personal to Daniel Green: I just read about your personal experiences. Kudos to you. Keep up the good work.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:25 PM

I believe he was clean for a longer while. Other people reported he led a healthy life in Ireland.

My personal impression was he was doing drugs at the end of the trial (what is understandable imo) and started again now shortly before his death.

His kids weren't surrounded by a constantly drugged up father imo.

I think through it all MJ sheltered his children from his addiction. He still loved them and let them know it. He still spent quality time with him and it shows. They are truly amazingly thoughtful children just like their father.

That is what I think too. I think he was getting his life together and had been working on it for awhile.

I still say he wanted the Diprivan so he could get some much needed rest.

Everyone that was around MJ in recent months before his death said that MJ looked better than he had in years. No one saw any drug abuse.

And just think about it. Before Murray entered that home MJ was up, sharply dressed, engaging, energetic, having meals with his children before going to rehearsals and showing those in his household his new dance moves. It seems Mike was back and totally energized. He was eating, he was not losing weight. He had great enthusiasm about his tour.

THEN>>>>>>>>> BOOM! In walks Murray and oh my gosh what a difference a short time can make in someone's life.

Gone was the energetic man that had been filled with new hopes and dreams and in his place was a man who spiraled down in such a short time. The same time that Murray started being his personal physician.

I want to know everything this man did to MJ from moment one when he began treating him. What other medications did he prescribe for him when he knew he was treating an addict?

No one goes from being the man that MJ was for months to suddenly being the man that he became after Murray darted that doorway. It just makes no sense. Something Murray was doing was very wrong, wrong, wrong and I don't think it started just the day he probably overdosed MJ on Diprivan either.

imo

crazymama

07-31-2009, 02:26 PM

Is Kai Chase the nutritionist hired by AEG? She had scripts
in her name too.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:27 PM

You didn't listen to the intreview and didn't read the transcript, yet you can form an opinion of Kia Chase from her website. That would be very shallow of you since her website and her resume transcends her tenure with Michael Jackson. Maybe you should go back, listen and read. You may have a totally different opinion of Kia Chase. As I said last night Michael Jackson needed Kia Chase more that she needed him. IMO

See all my latest posts... Athena posted a link and meanwhile I DID listen to all 3 parts of the interview.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:27 PM

We've learned a doctor who was reprimanded for prescribing drugs to Janet Jackson using aliases has been asked to turn over his Michael Jackson-related medical files to the L.A. County Coroner's office.Law enforcement sources tell us the coroner has subpoenaed Dr. Allan Metzger's files. As we first reported, Metzger was reprimanded by the Medical Board of California for allegedly writing fraudulent prescriptions for Janet Jackson, "using a false/fictitious name."

When we spoke with Dr. Metzger on July 5, he told us "I have not treated him [Jackson] for ages." At the time he told us he last spoke with Jackson by phone in April and talked about the tour, his children, nutrition and hydration. We specifically asked Dr. Metzger if he talked to Jackson about Propofol and he said he had not. But now Dr. Metzger's lawyer, Harland Braun, says Dr. Metzger actually went to Jackson's house in April and the singer specifically asked about using Propofol at home, and the doctor advised against it. Braun told us he believed Jackson was asking Dr. Metzger to provide the drug to Jackson but the doctor declined. Braun says Metzger wrote notes about the meeting in his medical charts, despite what Dr. Metzger told us -- that he hadn't been Jackson's doctor "for ages." Braun didn't know when Dr. Metzger wrote his notes.

http://www.tmz.com/

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:28 PM

How do you figure? The man hardly ate. Celebrity chefs are a dime a dozen. imo

No kidding. On both counts.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:30 PM

And so it goes on. Another kid whose "childhood is robbed" of him, while having to be the adult.

Tragic.

Geez. He is the older brother.:rolleyes:

I doubt he was robbed of his childhood since MJ was all about a child being able to be a child.

imo

Eagleeye

07-31-2009, 02:30 PM

He probably was a parentified child. sad really. IMO MJ did rob his son of a childhood.

" The term parentified child applies to situations where a parent is unable to care for themselves emotionally and/or physically and instead of getting help from a spouse or other peers, they do a kind of role reversal with one or more of their children. Sometimes the role reversal is obvious such as situations where a parent drinks, does drugs or is absent and the child has to prepare meals and perform other routine types of household tasks"

"Often, however, parentification is much more subtle. Many mothers who suffer from a poor sense of self-worth unwittingly use their children to help give them a sense of purpose in life. The child becomes, in a sense, an extension of the mother, having to make sure that the mother feels good about herself at all costs. This can involve subtle but powerful pressure to do well in school, to go out for certain sports or other activities the mother values, etc. In such cases, the child has to deny their own needs and feelings because all energy must be focused on what the parent needs. One of the first goals of working with adults who were parentified as children is to help them get in touch with who they are, what they need and feel and to learn that their needs and feelings are OK."

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Tqh_IrpC8jYJ:susanlitton.com/general-psychology/general-psychology-answers.php+parentified+child&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://ccp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/7/2/163

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/08/15/harming-your-child-by-making-him-your-parent/

http://www.divorcerecovery101.com/kass18.html

Would this be just one more excuse for the abherrant behavior of a parent? You reference mothers in your post. MJ was not a mother. At least not in the way I portray him. IMO

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 02:31 PM

Yep.

The word addict in the warrants is very interesting. LAPD and DEA know that MJ was an addict, know 19 aliases he was using to procure drugs and no telling how far reaching the investigation will go.

Doesn't it also allow anyone to be charged on a federal level? While following the Anna Nicole Smith case, they could only charge based on providing drugs to an "addict".

I will wait for tox reports.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:33 PM

How do you figure? The man hardly ate. Celebrity chefs are a dime a dozen. imo

Where do you get that?

Kai said MJ had no problems eating and he had his breakfast taken to him in the mornings and she prepared him lunch and dinner and saw him eat the food with her own eyes.

I doubt seriously you can find celebrity chefs for a dime a dozen.:smile:

If so I want one.:smile:

imo

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 02:34 PM

Those are fascinating questions.

And the anesthesia that patients are going to have during ECT is different--it's a muscle relaxer, no? And no way to tell what cognitive abilities might be a result of what, in that case. But fascinating question.

I bet that there are absolutely no studies done to find out the effects of long-term use of anesthesia because nobody does it. It's too much of a risk to be under anesthesia at all.

Good morning Daniel Green:

Thanks. I almost didn't post it.

According to what I've read, Diprivan has been used in ECT. Brevital is also commonly used (another short acting anesthetic commonly used in dental procedures -- I've had it before and experienced the high I once described in a past post).

Succinylcholine (sp?) is the muscle relaxant used in combination with the anesthetic.

I read several links on electroshock therapy (ECT) in an attempt to find out about the effects of long term anesthetic use. One noted expert say that anesthesia is one of the factors in the memory loss commonly associated with ECT. Because of this, he advises given the patient a huge shot of oxygen via a mask prior to inducing anesthesia.

Way off topic, but interesting to me. Glad you found it of interest too, because I almost didn't post it.

Michael Jackson has always had a knack for being unusual, and imo, liked being enigmatic. I think his unprecedented use of anesthesia may be another first. Because of this, it may be nearly impossible to determine exactly what effects it may have had on his life and health. imo

Conversation is just getting interesting and I have to go. Be back later.

Eagleeye

07-31-2009, 02:35 PM

The chef that is writing a book? Wants to include all the recipes she made for MJ...that's a good reason to seek her 15 minutes. IMO

TDT, could you please read, listen and learn before making statements like that. As I have said before and will say again. MJ needed Kia more than she needed him. She is very well off on her own and will continue without MJ. Thankfully for her. She was requested by MJ to be his chef. She didn't ask him and she certaninly doesn't need her 15 minutes of fame. She did that on her own before she ever met MJ.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 02:38 PM

Where do you get that?

Kai said MJ had no problems eating and he had his breakfast taken to him in the mornings and she prepared him lunch and dinner and saw him eat the food with her own eyes.

I doubt seriously you can find celebrity chefs for a dime a dozen.:smile:

If so I want one.:smile:

imo

From the AEG person who early on said that they had hired someone who's specific job was to make sure Michael ate. I'm sorry I don't have time to find the link.

I liked Kai Chase. But I also realize that she is not about to say anything negative about Michael Jackson if she wants to retain employment with Katherine, which she stated in either or both of the interviews on the Today Show and/or LKL. imo

Sign me up for a chef too.

Gotta go, BBL.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 02:39 PM

Would this be just one more excuse for the abherrant behavior of a parent? You reference mothers in your post. MJ was not a mother. At least not in the way I portray him. IMO

I guess Eagle..some would like to lump all precosious, sentsitive children into that category "parentified"...That is just too quantifying..How about many children grow up in a very communicative family, having their thoughts and opinions heard by their caregivers...and then grow up with alot more self understanding than the rest of the world...Lets face it, how many children have you met, that act alot older than their years bely??..I have met many..including my own..who far and away are able to communicate with others, actually listen to others, and have empathy for others...able to verbalize what they think and why..Yikes..Were they "Parentified"...I guess according to some here they were...I will be sure to inform them of their affliction next time I talk to them..

BTW..the kids I am referring to have turned out to be wonderful parents themselves..

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:39 PM

I think through it all MJ sheltered his children from his addiction. He still loved them and let them know it. He still spent quality time with him and it shows. They are truly amazingly thoughtful children just like their father.

That is what I think too. I think he was getting his life together and had been working on it for awhile.

I still say he wanted the Diprivan so he could get some much needed rest.

Everyone that was around MJ in recent months before his death said that MJ looked better than he had in years. No one saw any drug abuse.

And just think about it. Before Murray entered that home MJ was up, sharply dressed, engaging, energetic, having meals with his children before going to rehearsals and showing those in his household his new dance moves. It seems Mike was back and totally energized. He was eating, he was not losing weight. He had great enthusiasm about his tour.

THEN>>>>>>>>> BOOM! In walks Murray and oh my gosh what a difference a short time can make in someone's life.

Gone was the energetic man that had been filled with new hopes and dreams and in his place was a man who spiraled down in such a short time. The same time that Murray started being his personal physician.

I want to know everything this man did to MJ from moment one when he began treating him. What other medications did he prescribe for him when he knew he was treating an addict?

No one goes from being the man that MJ was for months to suddenly being the man that he became after Murray darted that doorway. It just makes no sense. Something Murray was doing was very wrong, wrong, wrong and I don't think it started just the day he probably overdosed MJ on Diprivan either.

imo

I believe during his last weeks / days he wasn't lethargic all day long. Kai said he moved around slowly and was sad the day before his death while people who watched the last rehearsals described him in high spirits and energetic. I totally believe them. The vocal trainer, for example, was so soft spoken and genuine. So I don't think that the energy was gone 24/7. I conclude MJ had mood swings. In the mornings he probably still felt kind of numb, in the evenings he was energetic.

Meanwhile I believe MJ himself had concerns with Dr. Murray. If not why would he have called other medical people? -- Imo it was a CRY FOR HELP. He called people who warned him of the risks of drugs; he didn't call any enablers. That speak volumes imo.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:42 PM

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:45 PM

Wow -- he asked the chef if she would accompany them to London and asked the other chef to deliver MJ's food. Whoop de do and that equates him to being stripped him of his entire childhood. By all accounts he is a very intelligent and mature child. Nowhere does it say he "took care of MJ". :rolleyes:

Anyway - see ya later. Off to run some errands. :seeya:

Its sort of comical to me since I am the oldest sibling.

If an adult needed any of us to come or give instructions to or be made aware of something.......guess who they came to or called out to every time?

Yep, ya got it. ME!:biggrin:

Just the way it is when your the oldest child, imo.

imo

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:45 PM

From the AEG person who early on said that they had hired someone who's specific job was to make sure Michael ate. I'm sorry I don't have time to find the link.

I liked Kai Chase. But I also realize that she is not about to say anything negative about Michael Jackson if she wants to retain employment with Katherine, which she stated in either or both of the interviews on the Today Show and/or LKL. imo

Sign me up for a chef too.

Gotta go, BBL.

I've also read that there was a staffer whose only job was to remind MJ to eat.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:46 PM

Good morning Daniel Green:

Thanks. I almost didn't post it.

According to what I've read, Diprivan has been used in ECT. Brevital is also commonly used (another short acting anesthetic commonly used in dental procedures -- I've had it before and experienced the high I once described in a past post).

Succinylcholine (sp?) is the muscle relaxant used in combination with the anesthetic.

I read several links on electroshock therapy (ECT) in an attempt to find out about the effects of long term anesthetic use. One noted expert say that anesthesia is one of the factors in the memory loss commonly associated with ECT. Because of this, he advises given the patient a huge shot of oxygen via a mask prior to inducing anesthesia.

Way off topic, but interesting to me. Glad you found it of interest too, because I almost didn't post it.

snipped.

Succinylcholine is a paralyzing agent. You need to be tubed or else the paralyzed muscles will not allow you to breathe.

Truly fascinating question you ask and one which will now nag at me until I find out something about it. Lemme ck with the NIH to see if I can be steered correctly.

I have seen patients after they are wheeled out from ECT and the the lethargy, limpness and amnesia are shocking. So, in ECT they must give Brevital first, then give the Succs.

Thx.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:51 PM

snipped

Those that do every speak up and out about the negative things MJ has done...are threatened, harassed, bashed, crushed and falsely accused themselves. MJ surrounded himself with the right people to make it all happen. One rather funny example...Oxman trying to convince the world that baby dangling was a African tradition. I am still rolling over that one!

Even when MJ was out in public being filmed, he was often high as a kite. Just imagine what he was like behind closed doors. A Demerol addiction is no joke and with ALL of the other HARD CORE drugs found in his home how can anyone claim he sheltered his children from it? PLEASE!

all in my opinion.

Totally agree.

Please, it was as clear with MJ as it was with Anna Nicole Smith slurring her words while in clown makeup while pregnant.

I do believe Oxman was correct when giving his rounds of the media tours the first few days, that this will be much worse than ANS.

The man had Versed and Demerol vials, forpetesakes. And was out at night on anesthesia. And someone is gonna try and pretend that one can parent, good bad or indifferently, while on anesthesia and injectible opiates??????????? Please.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 02:53 PM

The children didn't have a mother...that imo was MJ's choice. I didn't reference mothers in my post. It is in the literature. Mothers are usually the primary caretakers. In MJ's case...he would be the only parent so it would apply to him. ....imo

Goodness, it seems that no one here is accounting for the years that the nanny was with these kids, right up until last November...Do you believe she had no hand in nuturing those kids, giving education, council and support during those many years touring the world..living in many exotic places?? I never got the impression those kids relied on their "Pop Star" father for parenting...Tho I am sure MJ spent some quality time with them..I am also certain MJ didnt attend to their everyday needs..dotting father..I believe he had many others to follow his wishes..where the kids were concerned.. I doubt those kids had to carry the weight of the world around on their shoulders..IMO anyway!

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:53 PM

<snipped>
Even when MJ was out in public being filmed, he was often high as a kite. Just imagine what he was like behind closed doors. A Demerol addiction is no joke and with ALL of the other HARD CORE drugs found in his home how can anyone claim he sheltered his children from it? PLEASE!

all in my opinion.

Apart from the day of the verdict* I never had the impression he was high like a kite.

* Totally understandable imo. He was in so big fear as we all can't imagine imo.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/04/abuse-case-drove-him-to-brink-of-suicide-115875-21493509/

Unlike in other families in which a parent is addicted MJ always had educated staff around. Like I said before I don't think he constantly took drugs.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:53 PM

I am hoping and praying that they get a really good psychologist, and not someone looking to hitch their wagon to the Jackson star.

snipped.

And, really, what are the chances of that. :sad:

I hate this didn't go to court so that there could be some iron-clad mandates from the court about the treatment and even a choice of psychologists.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 02:54 PM

ITA. A lot of negativity being shown. Yes MJ was an addict; he had an illness that could affect any one of the Jane/John Does in this country. However, I don't see how knocking every person around him contributes to finding out what killed him and how going forward this can be prevented for the next fallen celebrity or the plain old housewife who gets addicted to drugs and making unethical doctors pay for the crimes they committed. I just don't understand all of the negativity. I love a good debate --- but this is just becoming who can top the next person with ill comments from some that don't know anything about the person they are talking about. JMO :shrug:

Hi Athena,

With all due respect, I don't see it as negativity. I see it as being realistic.

For me, I have no dog in this fight. I neither idolize nor demonize Michael Jackson.

I just want to know what happened. Why he died. Who and what contributed to his death.

I don't see how making "ill comments from some that don't know anything about the person they are talking about," is any different than making excuses or apologies, especially far-fetched ones, to justify the actions or behaviors of people that none of us knew personally. If one is looking for the truth, caution must be exercised so that use of either or both of those projections -- negative or positive -- doesn't obfuscate that truth.

imo, and I'm sure I've overstayed my welcome :seeya:

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:55 PM

All he had to do was say...You're Fired! MJ often and easily fired those closest to him.

He called Lee to SCORE diprivan. imo

It wasn't a cry for help...it was a cry for drugs. imo

What do you mean by that?

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:55 PM

All he had to do was say...You're Fired! MJ often and easily fired those closest to him.

He called Lee to SCORE diprivan. imo

It wasn't a cry for help...it was a cry for drugs. imo

Just like the other doc TMZ reports today was called by MJ and asked for diprivan, same time period.

It's what MJ did, imo.

And Rx addicts make up symptoms all the time when trying to shop for scripts. ie: I am hot, cold, etc.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 02:57 PM

I believe during his last weeks / days he wasn't lethargic all day long. Kai said he moved around slowly and was sad the day before his death while people who watched the last rehearsals described him in high spirits and energetic. I totally believe them. The vocal trainer, for example, was so soft spoken and genuine. So I don't think that the energy was gone 24/7. I conclude MJ had mood swings. In the mornings he probably still felt kind of numb, in the evenings he was energetic.

Meanwhile I believe MJ himself had concerns with Dr. Murray. If not why would he have called other medical people? -- Imo it was a CRY FOR HELP. He called people who warned him of the risks of drugs; he didn't call any enablers. That speak volumes imo.

ITA! I think MJ, himself, knew something wasn't right and he reached out to the ones who had tried to help him and had his best interest at heart.

Is this when he told Lee that he did not feel right? And that one side of his body was hot and the other side felt cold?

tia

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 02:57 PM

Goodness, it seems that no one here is accounting for the years that the nanny was with these kids, right up until last November...Do you believe she had no hand in nuturing those kids, giving education, council and support during those many years touring the world..living in many exotic places?? I never got the impression those kids relied on their "Pop Star" father for parenting...Tho I am sure MJ spent some quality time with them..I am also certain MJ didnt attend to their everyday needs..dotting father..I believe he had many others to follow his wishes..where the kids were concerned.. I doubt those kids had to carry the weight of the world around on their shoulders..IMO anyway!

LMS

Yep, that's exactly what I think. There were a lot of other people around who cared -- educated people. It wasn't like in a street addict family.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:58 PM

snipped
I don't see how making "ill comments from some that don't know anything about the person they are talking about," is any different than making excuses or apologies, especially far-fetched ones, to justify the actions or behaviors of people that none of us knew personally. If one is looking for the truth, caution must be exercised so that use of either or both of those projections -- negative or positive -- doesn't obfuscate that truth.

imo, and I'm sure I've overstayed my welcome :seeya:

You certainly have not!!!!!!!! Please do stay. You are a source of great discussion and insightful pts.

You know what they say about the truth, it's an absolute defense.

I neither hated or liked MJ, either. I felt sorry for those children and am interested in finding out how/why he died, as well.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 02:59 PM

Yep...that's what happens when ya actually work with parentified children... ;)

Laughed out loud. Not at the topic, of course, but at your post.

Yeah, imagine that. See thousands of em, and you read a report like the abc one posted about that poor child giving the orders to staff and making the decisions and it's just crystal clear.

Sad.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 03:00 PM

ITA! I think MJ, himself, knew something wasn't right and he reached out to the ones who had tried to help him and had his best interest at heart.

Is this when he told Lee that he did not feel right? And that one side of his body was hot and the other side felt cold?

tia

Yes, I thought of this situation when he felt hot and cold. He probably was aware of the risks in this specific moment and maybe thought Dr. Murray didn't administer it correctly or or or...

And he called Deepak Chopra -- a doctor for ALTERNATIVE medicine who clearly said that he's AGAINST the use of prescription drugs.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:01 PM

the goose would be anyone that says anything negative about Michael Jackson.

Not even that. Just point out the obvious truths. Case in point, Maureen Orth.

And on this forum.

Which, I must remind folks, is about the posts, not the posters. Let's keep that in mind.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:03 PM

Geez. He is the older brother.:rolleyes:

I doubt he was robbed of his childhood since MJ was all about a child being able to be a child.

imo

I disagree, completely. From a professional standpoint, even, I will disagree.

AlohaRainbow

07-31-2009, 03:03 PM

*snip*
I'm wondering what the long term effects of repeated anesthesia are. I've tried to research it, and haven't found much except concerns for long term effects in the young, and possible cognitive effects in the elderly.
*snip*

diprivan is metabolized by the liver, so liver problems would be a potential issue.
also
http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm
EDTA is a strong chelator of trace metals -- including zinc. Although with DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion there are no reports of decreased zinc levels or zinc deficiency-related adverse events, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should not be infused for longer than 5 days without providing a drug holiday to safely replace estimated or measured urine zinc losses. [note: zinc supplements could be given if this was an issue]

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:04 PM

It's hardly the same thing.

Oh yes it is. :smile: They were doing it when I was younger than 12 too.

imo

Eagleeye

07-31-2009, 03:04 PM

Ok...then why does she plan on writing the book?

She started writing her book before she went to work for MJ. It is almost finished. Look at her website. She is adding her experience with MJ to that book as we speak. And why wouldn't she? Your tired old criticisms of everyone and everything are getting tiresome.

http://www.kaichase.com/

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 03:05 PM

Apart from the day of the verdict* I never had the impression he was high like a kite.

* Totally understandable imo. He was in so big fear as we all can't imagine imo.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/04/abuse-case-drove-him-to-brink-of-suicide-115875-21493509/

Unlike in other families in which a parent is addicted MJ always had educated staff around. Like I said before I don't think he constantly took drugs.

I don't buy it either. But whatever, I am tired of going over the same stuff over and over again. I can only compare his actions to what Anna Nicole Smith looked like during her life. When comparing MJ against Smith, her actions spoke of a drug addict, his did not. But again,I will wait for the tox report.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:07 PM

I disagree, completely. From a professional standpoint, even, I will disagree.

From my life as the oldest sibling of my family and living it for a very long time I will respectfully have to disagree with your perception.

It is very common in older siblings who have lived it.:smile:

imo

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:08 PM

snipped I just don't understand all of the negativity. I love a good debate --- but this is just becoming who can top the next person with ill comments from some that don't know anything about the person they are talking about. JMO :shrug:

I don't understand the trying to stop points of view differing from fans'? :huh:

The fact is that addicts do not hire ppl who are not cool with what they do. That is a universal truth. They don't go to ethical/good docs, because they need unethical/bad docs who will give them what they need. They hire staff who will keep the truth zipped. They hire fly by night practitioners from an online "diploma mill" to treat their children's colds. Etc.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:09 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:10 PM

From my life as the oldest sibling of my family and living it for a very long time I will respectfully have to disagree with your perception.

It is very common in older siblings who have lived it.:smile:

imo

I am an oldest sibling. That has nothing to do with what TNT and I said.

Having seen, literally, thousands of children in that same position of parenting the addicted parent, professionally, and having the advanced degrees and training that go along with that, it is clear to me.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:11 PM

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 03:12 PM

the goose would be anyone that says anything negative about Michael Jackson.

Imo it's not about "positive" or "negative". Decisive for my attitude about Michael Jackson is that I see him as a victim. Evil, tragic events in his life have caused his addiction imo.

It's not like I would agree with everybody who speaks out positively about him but disagree with those who speak negatively.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:13 PM

Yes, I thought of this situation when he felt hot and cold. He probably was aware of the risks in this specific moment and maybe thought Dr. Murray didn't administer it correctly or or or...

And he called Deepak Chopra -- a doctor for ALTERNATIVE medicine who clearly said that he's AGAINST the use of prescription drugs.

Thank you. So when he called her that time it was only to reach out to her and tell her he was not feeling well?

I hate that Dr. Chopra was unable to reach MJ.

imo

crazymama

07-31-2009, 03:14 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:15 PM

a spider bit me, my back hurts...etc...

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 03:18 PM

She started writing her book before she went to work for MJ. It is almost finished. Look at her website. She is adding her experience with MJ to that book as we speak. And why wouldn't she? Your tired old criticisms of everyone and everything are getting tiresome.

http://www.kaichase.com/

Wow..I just read her bio..on her site..She has never even mentioned her connection to the "Celebrity" upbringing, and contacts throughout her life...It does seem she followed the advice from "Redd Fox"..to the tee..she never needed to use or climb on the backs of "Famous"..she followed her dreams..and voila...she became a well respected person in her own right!..Kudos for her!!

She is also a very beautiful women...but has maintained her humility..no need to puff up herself..her successes seems to have been earned..the old fashion way.."Proof In Her Pudding"...

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 03:18 PM

You miss the point. Psychologically MJ was both father and mother.

Yes, there was hired help surrounding the children...no different than a street addicts children being surrounded by teachers and classmates all day and going off to the kindly neighbors house to eat nightly.

A parent role shouldn't be underestimated. MJ was emotionally needy and an addict. Both make for a lousy parental relationship.

You can't compare a teacher to personal staff imo. The care MJ's children got was more intense. It's not comparable to "street addict families" in which everybody hangs out in one small room, the tv is on with trashy programs and a parent lies passed out on the sofa...

But I agree with you that MJ was emotionally needy and probably absorbed the love by his kids, too.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:20 PM

I am an oldest sibling. That has nothing to do with what TNT and I said.

Having seen, literally, thousands of children in that same position of parenting the addicted parent, professionally, and having the advanced degrees and training that go along with that, it is clear to me.

Yes, daniel, I know how you think your profession tops most things. But there is no evidence that Prince was having to take care of his father. None.:smile:

If Prince was his father's caretaker then when called he would have bound right up to MJs room to make sure things were being done. He didn't. He was a scared, frightened child who stayed at the bottom of the stairs praying with others that his father would be ok.

imo

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 03:22 PM

-------------
Would this show up in regular blood tests?or medical exams?

I'll keep the answer simple crazy....NO..Due to its short half life it will be out of the blood..however metabolites could be found throughout the body...The problem is..It is a realitively unknown drug..and is not included in routine tox screens...It has to be specificall suspected..to look for..

LMS:laugh:

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:25 PM

I think through it all MJ sheltered his children from his addiction. snipped

That's just impossible.

No addict "shelters" his/her children. It's an impossibility.

Did you know that almost 1/2 of child welfare (DSS) cases are because the addiction of a parent?

Let alone the documented problems that afflict children of addicts.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:26 PM

Yes, daniel, I know how you think your profession tops most things. snipped

Wow. That was uncalled for. Not true, either. But, gosh, what a way to stop a discussion.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 03:26 PM

Thank you. So when he called her that time it was only to reach out to her and tell her he was not feeling well?

I hate that Dr. Chopra was unable to reach MJ.

imo

I more think he maybe recalled the conversation with the nurse. As far as I remember she even told him he could die if he uses this drug. It has been often reported Michael was a bit of a hypochondriac...., so if he felt hot and cold he SURE was worried imo, seeking for help.

Ohhhhh, me too. It's sooooo tragic he wasn't available. Maybe MJ would be still alive if he had been reachable.

If a medically educated person would have gone to his house, judged what was going on, there maybe would have been an intervention -- out of responsibility imo.

Got to log out! Was nice to talk to you!

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:27 PM

Were your parents drug addicts and emotionally needy? Were they incapable of parenting themselves? Or did they simply want to instill a sense of responsibility in you and help you learn to become a self sufficient adult? Did they constantly & desperately NEED you to say you loved them? Did they depend on you for their own happiness? Growing up, were the needs of others your sole responsibility? Did you have a clue who you were, your own feelings, your own thoughts even?

Did my parents live in a huge home with a Chef, maids,nanny, security guards and other staff and have a personal in house physician? Absolutely not.

I am not sure what you mean by "desperately need to say you loved them?" Are you talking about the Jackson children. I think they said it and said it often because they meant every word of it and I am glad that MJ knew it and they knew he loved them.

imo

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:28 PM

You can't compare a teacher to personal staff imo. The care MJ's children got was more intense. It's not comparable to "street addict families" in which everybody hangs out in one small room, the tv is on with trashy programs and a parent lies passed out on the sofa...

But I agree with you that MJ was emotionally needy and probably absorbed the love by his kids, too.

What a nasty way to look at an addict who has no money.

So lying passed out on a sofa is, somehow, worse than being put out by opiates and anesthesia at one's home?

Strange, that.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:31 PM

Wow. That was uncalled for. Not true, either. But, gosh, what a way to stop a discussion.

Well then I apologize sincerely. I can only go on my own life experiences, daniel and I have lived being the oldest sibling for a very long time.

I have read that older siblings are usually the most dependable child because they were given more responsibilities as a child.

Don't know if that is true, however; it is true in my case.

imo

Eagleeye

07-31-2009, 03:33 PM

Wow. That was uncalled for. Not true, either. But, gosh, what a way to stop a discussion.

I disagree that it was uncalled for. You set yourself up for it. You post like you are the consumate professional in child care here and there are other opinions here that have the same validity in the poster's eyes as you do yours.

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 03:33 PM

Nice list Athena..and I am sure it is much shorter than the one the "Investigative' team has...Its no wonder they are having trouble figuring out just who is the primary enabler at the time of MJ's death..as it seems there is a long list of facilitators for years in MJ's life!!

I also believe, even after they figure out who is directly responsible, there will be more cases that will bubble up in regards to "Perscription Abuses" facilitated by many...I hope this whole things puts some sort of deterent foreward..to stop this practice...

LMS

I agree that something needs to be done about this kind of abuse. I do think with this case and with the ANS case already having arrests made, things will change. Dr.'s and pharmacies may think twice before they over prescribe, and use aliases for patients.

My main question about all of this is........where did Dr. Murray get Diprovan? He had no hospital privileges, diprovan isn't a prescription drug, so where did he get it?

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 03:36 PM

That's not what I asked you.

You don't seem to understand what exactly a parentified child is.

Money has absolutely nothing to do with a child psychological well being on this topic.

Oh I know much more about it than you may think.

imo

Nic99

07-31-2009, 03:39 PM

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:42 PM

2. Family interaction is defined by substance abuse or addiction in a family.
• Families affected by alcoholism report higher levels of conflict than do families with no alcoholism.Drinking/addiction is the primary factor in family disruption.The environment of children of alcoholics has been characterized by lack of parenting, poor home management, and lack of family communication skills, thereby effectively robbing children of alcoholic parents of modeling or training on parenting skills or family effectiveness.

• The following family problems have been frequently associated with families affected by alcoholism/addiction:
increased family conflict; emotional or physical violence; decreased family cohesion; decreased family organization; increased family isolation; increased family stress including work problems, illness, marital strain and financial problems; and frequent family moves.

• Addicted parents often lack the ability to provide structure or discipline in family life, but simultaneously expect their children to be competent at a wide variety of tasks earlier than do non-substanceabusing parents.

. A relationship between parental addiction and child abuse has been documented in a large proportion of child abuse and neglect cases.
• Three of four (71.6%) child welfare professionals cite substance abuse as the top cause for the dramatic rise in child maltreatment since 1986.
• Most welfare professionals (79.6%) report that substance abuse causes or contributes to at least half of all cases of child maltreatment; 39.7% say it is a factor in over 75% of the cases.

• In one study, 79% of adolescent runaways and homeless youth reported alcohol use in the home, 53% reported problem drinking in the home, and 54% reported drug use in the home

5. Children of addicted parents exhibit symptoms of depression and anxiety more than do children from non-addicted families.

• Children of addicted parents are more likely to have anxiety disorders or to show anxiety symptoms.

• Children of addicted parents are at high risk for elevated rates of psychiatric and psychosocial dysfunction, as well as for alcoholism.

6. Children of addicted parents experience greater physical and mental health problems and higher health and welfare costs than do children from non-addicted families.

• Substance abuse and other mental disorders were the most notable conditions among children of addicted parents.

• It is estimated that parental substance abuse and addiction are the chief cause in at least 70-90% of all child welfare spending. Using the more conservative 70 percent assessment, in 1998 substance
abuse and addiction accounted for approximately $10 billion in federal, state and local government spending simply to maintain child welfare systems.
• A sample of children hospitalized for psychiatric disorders demonstrated that more than 50% were children of addicted parents.

7. Children of addicted parents have a high rate of behavior problems.
• Research has shown that children of addicted parents demonstrate behavioral characteristics and a temperament style that predispose them to future maladjustment. Children of addicted parents score lower on testsmeasuring school achievement and they exhibit other difficulties in school.
• Sons of addicted parents performed worse on all domains measuring school achievement, using the Peabody Individual Achievement Test-Revised (PIATR), including general information, reading recognition,
reading comprehension, total reading, mathematics and spelling.
http://www.nacoa.net/pdfs/addicted.pdf

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 03:42 PM

I agree that something needs to be done about this kind of abuse. I do think with this case and with the ANS case already having arrests made, things will change. Dr.'s and pharmacies may think twice before they over prescribe, and use aliases for patients.

My main question about all of this is........where did Dr. Murray get Diprovan? He had no hospital privileges, diprovan isn't a prescription drug, so where did he get it?

My bolding..I think that is exactly what the Search Warrants are trying to ascertain...He had to have acquired it somehow..whether he had it ordered online, or got it supplied from a "Surgical Unit"...Just one more piece to the mosaic....I hate to use the analogy like this..but does it really matter?..If it had been a gun..and the gun was found at the house, with prints on it..would it really matter in the end, how he got the gun?...I think they are just trying to figure out if there were "Others" involved..locally or back in Vegas or Texas..

LMS

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 03:43 PM

Its sort of comical to me since I am the oldest sibling.

If an adult needed any of us to come or give instructions to or be made aware of something.......guess who they came to or called out to every time?

Yep, ya got it. ME!:biggrin:

Just the way it is when your the oldest child, imo.

imo

Geez, not my oldest child. He would tell me "we'll figure it out" and get to the problem in a week or so. :laugh::scared:

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:44 PM

Well then I apologize sincerely. I can only go on my own life experiences, daniel and I have lived being the oldest sibling for a very long time.

I have read that older siblings are usually the most dependable child because they were given more responsibilities as a child.

Don't know if that is true, however; it is true in my case.

imo

Apology accepted. We certainly do not want to have the tread closed due to TOS violations.

Yes, older sibs do tend to be more dependable. But that has nothing to with a child of an addict becoming the parent. The links TDT provided were excellent. They will show you the vast difference between the two.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:45 PM

There is absolutely NO proof OR indication that the Jackson children meet any of the criteria you posted.

HUH? :confused:

And, just one of those I posted they already have met. That a child welfare case was initiated on their behalf and that DSS spent money to investigate.

But, really, HUH?

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:53 PM

Athena, I still have no idea what your post, meant, then. Those are in fact, the sad facts about children of addicts.

Those do not come from some fly by night blog or site, either.

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 03:57 PM

With all due respect to you too Zen, I am not referring to MJ. I expect all and any comments be made about him whether negative or positive. I am referring to people for an example like Kai Chase. No one here knows either way what her intentions are but choose to talk negatively about her why? This is not truth finding -- it basically borders on defamation and I for one just choose not to be a part of it. She was a professional chef for 14 years; she worked as an assistant to Wolfgang Puck and catered to other celebrities as well and said MJ was an inspiration to her who encouraged her to write a book. I see nothing wrong with that.

It seems anyone who has come in contact with MJ and said anything good about him is bashed but the ones who say anything negative are heroes - why? Or things are read into articles that just aren't there. I take people at face value unless something is proven differently. My last comment on it - as I don't want to get involved with all the negativity but that is just me. JMHO

Your statement from above (which I bolded) is all I am concerned about and to take it a bit further the events and circumstances surrounding his death and how can this be prevented so it doesn't happen to anyone else. Many, many unanswered questions. MOO

Why do so many people talk negatively about nurse Lee? Kai Chase is going on all of the shows now. How is she different than Lee? :confused:

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 03:58 PM

I thought this was strange too, considering he didn't have hospital privileges, but I was sent this link below by a poster, which sells it online to anyone? One of many I might add.

http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s3445-s-DIPRIVAN.aspx

Thanks. If he did get it online, that would sure show up on his computer.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 03:59 PM

A new study shows that nearly 1 in 10 kids has a parent abusing or dependent on drugs or alcohol.

A report released by the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) reveals that a surprising number of children — more than 8 million — live with at least one parent who was dependent on or abused alcohol or an illicit drug in the past year. Of those, about 5.4 million lived with a father who met the criteria for past year substance abuse or dependence, and 3.4 million live with a mother who met the criteria.

Children of substance abusers experience higher rates of child abuse and neglect, as well as other threats to their safety including physical injuries and deaths related to motor vehicle accidents. Additionally, research shows that the children of substance abusers are at increased risk for drug and alcohol addiction.

"The research increasingly shows that children growing up in homes with alcohol- and drug-abusing parents suffer -- often greatly," Eric Broderick, acting administrator of the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. "The chronic emotional stress in such an environment can damage their social and emotional development and permanently impede healthy brain development, often resulting in mental and physical health problems across the lifespan. This underlines the importance of preventive interventions at the earliest possible age.”

All findings for the report, Children Living with Substance Dependent or Substance-Abusing Parents: 2002 to 2007, were based on multi-year combined data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health.

http://news.drugfree.org/2009/05/07/research-8-million-children-live-with-an-addicted-parent/

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:00 PM

[/B]

My bolding..I think that is exactly what the Search Warrants are trying to ascertain...He had to have acquired it somehow..whether he had it ordered online, or got it supplied from a "Surgical Unit"...Just one more piece to the mosaic....I hate to use the analogy like this..but does it really matter?..If it had been a gun..and the gun was found at the house, with prints on it..would it really matter in the end, how he got the gun?...I think they are just trying to figure out if there were "Others" involved..locally or back in Vegas or Texas..

LMS

I think you are right. Especially if another Dr. who had access gave it to him.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 04:01 PM

Aren't these the same people that claim MJ didn't have a drug problem?

The very ones.

MJ enablers all of them, right?

I mean, who else actually spent time with these poor kids? :confused:

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:01 PM

I guess I am having a hard time equating child direct effects of an addict..tho there is a huge difference in their surrounding family factors.

So some are saying..that an addict parent directly effects at the same level whether those kids have an "Enterourge" caring for them or not. Is that true?..Makes no difference if a single parent, who is addicted makes the same influences on kids as the affluent parent who has the buffer of protection to Hide most the "Warts" of that addiction..

Maybe Child Welfare should take alook at their guidelines then..Remove all children from parents who over-use anything....Of course thats rediculous..but it would explain why addicted parents get to keep their children..when it is proven there is adequate and appropriate caregivers in place..to protect the child....

Again..I just cant equate the two...Huge differences..

LMS

Nic99

07-31-2009, 04:02 PM

Thanks. If he did get it online, that would sure show up on his computer.

Yes it would. I don't understand how these companies are allowed to sell this drug online, it beggars belief really imo.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 04:02 PM

Not even these:

:decreased family cohesion; decreased family organization; increased family isolation; increased family stress including work problems, illness, marital strain and financial problems; and frequent family moves?

Sure seems they met those.

crazymama

07-31-2009, 04:03 PM

I think he was a binge user.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 04:06 PM

The term parentified child applies to situations where a parent is unable to care for themselves emotionally and/or physically and instead of getting help from a spouse or other peers, they do a kind of role reversal with one or more of their children. Sometimes the role reversal is obvious such as situations where a parent drinks, does drugs or is absent and the child has to prepare meals and perform other routine types of household tasks.

http://susanlitton.com/general-psychology/general-psychology-answers.php

You know, like when a child is the one to give orders to household staff or make plans for family travel.

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:06 PM

Yes it would. I don't understand how these companies are allowed to sell this drug online, it beggars belief really imo.

It's crazy. I wonder how many people will now try to get this drug, since it has come to the attention of the main stream population? And, I wonder if there will now be more control on it. The one site I saw was from Canada, so I don't have any idea if anyone could do anything about it.

crazymama

07-31-2009, 04:08 PM

Long time binge user. Periods where he was together,
times when not.
I don't believe none of these people, friends, workers, that
they never saw nothing unusual.

Nic99

07-31-2009, 04:10 PM

It's crazy. I wonder how many people will now try to get this drug, since it has come to the attention of the main stream population? And, I wonder if there will now be more control on it. The one site I saw was from Canada, so I don't have any idea if anyone could do anything about it.

Yes, this drug has now come to the attention of the worldwide population really and I hope that maybe some good will come out of this awful tragedy and the drug will be taken off sites such as this one.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 04:13 PM

Exactly Lynda. Grace has been with the children since birth and surely that accounts much for the way MJ's children are.snipped JMO

Which proves, if the above is true, that MJ, as an addict, could not be, and was not, an effective parent.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:17 PM

Yes, this drug has now come to the attention of the worldwide population really and I hope that maybe some good will come out of this awful tragedy and the drug will be taken off sites such as this one.

You are right..How many people really know what they were given in the operating room?..I never had a patient ask me what drug was I given?...I think the only reason MJ even knew about this drug was because of his affinity of "Dr. Circles" and when he asked..he got answers..thus pursuited it....The only people who knew about this drug prior to this exposing..was the "Medical Family"..who used it in their work....Laypersons had no idea about it...I had to LOL..Dr. Sanjay Gupta had never heard about this drug..in that its effects and abuses..and it's dangers..He spent weeks interviewing people..in order to find out about it..Sanjey is neurosurgeon for crying out loud...So what regular person would even know of its powers???...Simply..Next to NIL!!

NOW..it behooves the regulatory body to make this drug "Controlled" and must be " Accounted For"...

LMS

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:18 PM

Cinder they tracked the diprivan down to TEVA Pharmaceuticals (USA) (distributor) by the lot numbers which were distributed to AmeriBergen. The last that was written is that LE had requested any sales made by them within the past few months. There are a few links on the board as I know you haven't been around for a while. I could have the spelling of "Amer..... incorrect as I am writing this from memory.

Thank you. I found their website. http://www.amerisourcebergen.com/cp/1/ I wonder if they sell to online pharmacies?

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:22 PM

Why did you snip my post. It takes it out of context. He was a major contributor to their upbringing and the time he spent with them was quality time. Many drug addicts who abuse prescription drugs don't necessarily walk around out of their minds. Some are able to hide it very well and fully function. Have seen it with my own eyes.

Welcome to the world of "Contextual Deviation"..Not pleasant to be mis-interpreted is it?...I think it is very manipulative and agenda driven..bandwidth..be darned..quote the whole thing..and bold what you wish to address....I feel for ya:wub:

LMS

Nic99

07-31-2009, 04:22 PM

You are right..How many people really know what they were given in the operating room?..I never had a patient ask me what drug was I given?...I think the only reason MJ even knew about this drug was because of his affinity of "Dr. Circles" and when he asked..he got answers..thus pursuited it....The only people who knew about this drug prior to this exposing..was the "Medical Family"..who used it in their work....Laypersons had no idea about it...I had to LOL..Dr. Sanjay Gupta had never heard about this drug..in that its effects and abuses..and it's dangers..He spent weeks interviewing people..in order to find out about it..Sanjey is neurosurgeon for crying out loud...So what regular person would even know of its powers???...Simply..Next to NIL!!

NOW..it behooves the regulatory body to make this drug "Controlled" and must be " Accounted For"...

LMS

Yup and how many know about it now; well you'd have had to be living in a bubble (no pun intended!) to not know about it, so the authorities and governments worldwide should make sure that this drug is now controlled as you said.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 04:25 PM

Stan Lee Reflects On 'Friendly' Relationship With Michael Jackson

Pair met 'a number of times' in the 1990s to discuss buying Marvel Comics.

""We had met a number of times," Lee told MTV News. "In fact, [Jackson] came to my house once with his son, and I remember my wife took care of his son for about an hour while Michael and I were talking.
"He was quite a good father," he added. "He was very solicitous, and he cared very much for the boy.""

"He thought I'd be the one who could get him the rights [to make a Spider-Man movie], and I told him I couldn't," Lee continued. "He would have to go to the Marvel company. But we did become friendly ... and he was a great guy."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1617208/20090729/jackson_michael.jhtml

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 04:29 PM

You certainly have not!!!!!!!! Please do stay. You are a source of great discussion and insightful pts.

You know what they say about the truth, it's an absolute defense.

I neither hated or liked MJ, either. I felt sorry for those children and am interested in finding out how/why he died, as well.

oops....I meant just for this afternoon, because I have errands I should be running right now. (this tends to be addictive).

You can't get rid of me that easily.... :laugh:

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 04:31 PM

This is Michael Jackson's personal physician in a mugshot taken when he was arrested on domestic violence charges in 1994.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/31/doctor-s-brushes-with-the-courts-115875-21560404/

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:32 PM

I don't think diprivan goes to pharmacies. Sounds like they deliver to hospitals or other manufacturers:

Our Vision

To be the essential business partner to specialty pharmaceutical manufacturers and healthcare providers.

Our Mission

We deliver responsive and innovative healthcare products and solutions to help our business partners positively impact patients' lives.

http://www.absg.ca/English/VisionMission.html

It was posted that you could get it through online pharmacies out of Canada. I don't know where else. I know it isn't a pharmaceutical drug in the US.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:34 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:38 PM

It was posted that you could get it through online pharmacies out of Canada. I don't know where else. I know it isn't a pharmaceutical drug in the US.

I think ordering "online" can be done as long as certain credentials are supplied...in that you or I couldnt go online and order it...There must be some sort of criteria to get a shippment of this drug..I just cant imagine Tom, Dick or Harry ordering it..Just doesnt fit...Wonder if any layperople even tried to order it in the past month?..Now..THAT would be interesting!!

LMS

crazymama

07-31-2009, 04:41 PM

In all the reading on Diprivan, I read of one addict that
got his supply from a vet. Said he needed it to sedate his fish.
Maybe if MJ knew a vet, or someone with a large farm.
my opinion

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 04:43 PM

Oooh -- this just reminded me. Last night (may have been the TV Guide network - don't remember) someone on the show said that MJ looked like the cartoon character from Speed Racer. They showed a picture of him side by side with this cartoon character and dang if he didn't. I'm trying to find a picture on-line without his helmet on (which is the one they showed). As soon as I find it will post a link. The resemblance was really uncanny. :laugh:

It was inside of the youtube thing of "tabloid junkie".

The pic is at 1:19 - 1:20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rXlOVZF4Jc

There's also a photo of him together with Frank DiLeo on which he wears this helmet.
You meant this one?
http://michaeljacksonebmeier.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/mj-frank-dileo_jpg.jpg

Nic99

07-31-2009, 04:43 PM

I think ordering "online" can be done as long as certain credentials are supplied...in that you or I couldnt go online and order it...There must be some sort of criteria to get a shippment of this drug..I just cant imagine Tom, Dick or Harry ordering it..Just doesnt fit...Wonder if any layperople even tried to order it in the past month?..Now..THAT would be interesting!!

LMS

Well I must admit I tested it out when I first saw the link and added the diprivan to my basket, but I chickened out of going any further lol...

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:45 PM

Well I must admit I tested it out when I first saw the link and added the diprivan to my basket, but I chickened out of going any further lol...

LOL Nic..I didnt even put in my basket...as a HC professional..I just cant have searches like that on my "Hard Drive"..let alone orders LOL

LMS:ohmy:

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 04:47 PM

In all the reading on Diprivan, I read of one addict that
got his supply from a vet. Said he needed it to sedate his fish.
Maybe if MJ knew a vet, or someone with a large farm.
my opinion

My bold and underline.....:laugh:Now that is funny..I wonder if he had to outline his calibrations for treatment of said fish???

LMS:lol:

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 04:49 PM

In all the reading on Diprivan, I read of one addict that
got his supply from a vet. Said he needed it to sedate his fish.

<snipped>

Hahaha! :laugh:

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:51 PM

I think ordering "online" can be done as long as certain credentials are supplied...in that you or I couldnt go online and order it...There must be some sort of criteria to get a shippment of this drug..I just cant imagine Tom, Dick or Harry ordering it..Just doesnt fit...Wonder if any layperople even tried to order it in the past month?..Now..THAT would be interesting!!

LMS

You would hope it wouldn't be easy to get. I thought I read that someone tried and said it was easy. I think that they said you needed to send a script for it, and that if you didn't have one a Dr. who worked with the online pharmacy would look into your request. I could be wrong about all of this though. I have been trying to catch up and have missed a lot. :laugh:

CinderL.

07-31-2009, 04:53 PM

In all the reading on Diprivan, I read of one addict that
got his supply from a vet. Said he needed it to sedate his fish.
Maybe if MJ knew a vet, or someone with a large farm.
my opinion

Debbie R. ????

daniel green

07-31-2009, 04:55 PM

oops....I meant just for this afternoon, because I have errands I should be running right now. (this tends to be addictive).

You can't get rid of me that easily.... :laugh:

It does tend to be that way!!! :scared:

Doselady

07-31-2009, 04:56 PM

Nic99

07-31-2009, 05:03 PM

From AmeriSourceBergen nic?

No, from the link I supplied earlier to CindL, the canadian one. I was a bit surprised when it went straight into the basket tbh:ohmy:

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:04 PM

diprivan is metabolized by the liver, so liver problems would be a potential issue.
also
http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm
EDTA is a strong chelator of trace metals -- including zinc. Although with DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion there are no reports of decreased zinc levels or zinc deficiency-related adverse events, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should not be infused for longer than 5 days without providing a drug holiday to safely replace estimated or measured urine zinc losses. [note: zinc supplements could be given if this was an issue]

Thank you for this, Aloha Rainbow.

According to some sources, Lupus also has an effect on the liver:

The liver in systemic lupus erythematosus

http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/3/401

A 12-month prospective study was undertaken to determine prevalence and causes of clinical and subclinical liver disease in 260 SLE patients and 100 controls, and to look for concordance between ‘unexplained’ enzyme elevations and SLE activity. Hepatic status was assessed clini cally and by tests of liver function with additional tests where indicated. In 76 per cent of patients there were no clinical or laboratory abnormalities. Liver enzyme elevations occurred in 23 per cent. In 15 per cent there were identifiable causes, and in 8 per cent the elevations were ‘unexplained’, compared with none in the controls. Four patients had persistent ‘unexplained’ mild transaminase elevations. Liver tissue available from 14 patients revealed no serious lesions. Data on 156 patients with more than four assessments were analysed. In 12 of 15 patients with ‘unexplained’ transaminase elevations, changes in SGPT levels were concordant with SLE activity. This study suggests that subclinical liver disease is a manifestation of SLE.
//end//

Dr. Klein claims Michael had Lupus. Based on that knowledge, should Klein have used Diprivan to perform dermatological procedures (as has been rumored via previously posted links) that probably could have been performed using local anesthesia?

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:07 PM

Tijuana is an afternoon drive away. Its my understanding you can get pretty much any drug there with or without a prescription.

imo...of course.

I do know that "Regulatory" in Mexico lacks in many area's..including access to what is controlled up here in Canada..and the USA...I was surprised many decades ago I could go into a the Hotel Gift Shop and buy all sorts of drugs..we would have to have a script for up here...So who knows just where "Diprivan" falls in their system..However..rather doubt it (Diprivan) would be available in a Hotel Gift Shop....:laugh:

LMS

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:09 PM

I asked when I broke my arm last summer...Just cause I'm nosey ...wouldn't have mattered what the answer was that I was given. If they told me there were going to infuse me with motor oil, it would help the pain I would have said alrighty!!! lol

Ohhhh TDT..Too funny....You do give a new meaning to "nosey" tho...maybe its just " Inquiring Minds' want to know??>>LOL

LMS:laugh:

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 05:10 PM

HUH? :confused:

And, just one of those I posted they already have met. That a child welfare case was initiated on their behalf and that DSS spent money to investigate.

But, really, HUH?

Well I would say bill Gloria Aldred for any costs. The incident happen in Europe.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:12 PM

My bold and underline.....:laugh:Now that is funny..I wonder if he had to outline his calibrations for treatment of said fish???

LMS:lol:

I think he did it just for the halibut.....

sorry

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:17 PM

Thank you for this, Aloha Rainbow.

According to some sources, Lupus also has an effect on the liver:

The liver in systemic lupus erythematosus

http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/3/401

A 12-month prospective study was undertaken to determine prevalence and causes of clinical and subclinical liver disease in 260 SLE patients and 100 controls, and to look for concordance between ‘unexplained’ enzyme elevations and SLE activity. Hepatic status was assessed clini cally and by tests of liver function with additional tests where indicated. In 76 per cent of patients there were no clinical or laboratory abnormalities. Liver enzyme elevations occurred in 23 per cent. In 15 per cent there were identifiable causes, and in 8 per cent the elevations were ‘unexplained’, compared with none in the controls. Four patients had persistent ‘unexplained’ mild transaminase elevations. Liver tissue available from 14 patients revealed no serious lesions. Data on 156 patients with more than four assessments were analysed. In 12 of 15 patients with ‘unexplained’ transaminase elevations, changes in SGPT levels were concordant with SLE activity. This study suggests that subclinical liver disease is a manifestation of SLE.
//end//

Dr. Klein claims Michael had Lupus. Based on that knowledge, should Klein have used Diprivan to perform dermatological procedures (as has been rumored via previously posted links) that probably could have been performed using local anesthesia?

Oh Goodnes..I wouldnt want to use Dr. Klein as a reference to illustrate "Good Care" practices..he spent 1/4 century nurturing MJ's wants and needs..talk about "Concierge Doctoring"..Geesh..If a patient asks..give them what they want...then claim something or other to clear your good name..Geesh..I truly dislike physicians like that! I have seen in my day..many physicians who claim ignorance..or dispute..and let the nurse take the blame for their orders and actions..Makes me ill!!

I have spent my whole ( well maybe my last 3 decades) career mentoring young newbies..to "Do your homework"..do not allow Dr.'s to bully you to do things..unless you have researched it..protect your assets..dont just assume they know of what they are ordering...."You" nurses, are the one's to protect patients ..its your duty to do so!!

LMS

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:17 PM

You would hope it wouldn't be easy to get. I thought I read that someone tried and said it was easy. I think that they said you needed to send a script for it, and that if you didn't have one a Dr. who worked with the online pharmacy would look into your request. I could be wrong about all of this though. I have been trying to catch up and have missed a lot. :laugh:

Hi CinderL,

I read that too -- and it was a nurse that tried it, iirc. I couldn't remember exactly what it was she said they needed first, but from what she said, it didn't sound that difficult to obtain.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:19 PM

Oh Goodnes..I wouldnt want to use Dr. Klein as a reference to illustrate "Good Care" practices..he spent 1/4 century nurturing MJ's wants and needs..talk about "Concierge Doctoring"..Geesh..If a patient asks..give them what they want...then claim something or other to clear your good name..Geesh..I truly dislike physicians like that! I have seen in my day..many physicians who claim ignorance..or dispute..and let the nurse take the blame for their orders and actions..Makes me ill!!

I have spent my whole ( well maybe my last 3 decades) career mentoring young newbies..to "Do your homework"..do not allow Dr.'s to bully you to do things..unless you have researched it..protect your assets..dont just assume they know of what they are ordering...."You" nurses, are the one's to protect patients ..its your duty to do so!!

LMS

Your statement that I bolded -- My point exactly.

imo

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:22 PM

It's scary what we come across when following a case...

If they ever search my hard drive, I'm going down. I have everything from ligature strangulation, arsenic poisoning, blunt force trauma, web sites frequented by sex offenders which will remain nameless, chloroform....

:laugh::laugh::laugh: me too...

daniel green

07-31-2009, 05:23 PM

Would you trust him with your children? Would you want him driving a school bus? Flying a plane?

I wouldn't.

Absolutely not. To any of the above. Heck, driving a car, even.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 05:25 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:25 PM

Well I don't know of any hotels in Tijuana with a gift shop. You'd probably be lucky if the hotel had an inside bathroom.

The drugs are sold in alleys, unregulated pharmacies.. etc. I have been told even if a certain drug needs a prescription, the pharmacist has a doctor in the back room, willing to do anything for cash.

Oh My Gosh..I just lol..I guess, I havent been down there in a long time...Yikes..But, you know, my bro has a place in Puerto Vallarta, I will have to ask him the status of getting such things down there..Goodness..I know he already told me other services are so cheap down there..Like dental..whi8ch is so expensive up here!!

I'll let ya know when I find out?..he's much like me.."Inquiring Minds"LOL

LMS

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 05:28 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:30 PM

When I posted this post, IS responded with a Notice that my IP address has been banned. Has this happened with anyone else?

Nope..but then again..if your IP address has been banned..how are you posting now?..I just have to ask?

LMS:confused:

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 05:30 PM

When I posted this post, IS responded with a Notice that my IP address has been banned. Has this happened with anyone else?

no never happened to me..did you have to sign back in? that is odd

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 05:36 PM

Well I don't know of any hotels in Tijuana with a gift shop. You'd probably be lucky if the hotel had an inside bathroom.

The drugs are sold in alleys, unregulated pharmacies.. etc. I have been told even if a certain drug needs a prescription, the pharmacist has a doctor in the back room, willing to do anything for cash.

:ohmy:no way my oldest son and sister took off on a road trip and went from Indiana to Mexico when he called me all I said is DO NOT drink the water..lol.heck never worried about the above things..Yikes..glad they just walked across for a visit.:biggrin:

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:37 PM

Which is why I have said repeatedly that the autopsy will show the truth about lupus Dx.

You're right, daniel green.

A few weeks ago, when we were having a lupus discussion, I suggested that Michael might just have discoid lupus and not SLE (I notice that discussion has happened again since). During the original discussion, a poster who said she had experience working with Lupus, and sounded as if she knew her stuff, said that the butterfly rash was almost always associated with SLE. I looked it up, and found a link that verified what she said. (Of course, can't find that same link now...).

I did learn that butterfly rashes are also common with rosacea and acne, the latter of which Michael was treated for.

This has all left me with a big "HMMMMMM...." regarding Dr. Klein's statement that he took one look at Michael and knew he had lupus from the butterfly rash on his face.

Dr. Klein gives me the creeps. I wonder how many thousands of dollars he has made off of Michael Jackson? Pardon me for repeating what I said earlier, but there has been so much focus on Murray the past few days, I fear that other Doctors who should also be culpable for this will somehow get off scott free. IMO Klein would be just the type to write a book about it and then go on speaking tours. Off my soapbox now.

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 05:43 PM

Some children are raised with saying "I love you" comes to them automatically along with the hugs. We do it everyday in my home - and my children are grown and still do it. When my hubby leaves for work in the morning our last words before him walking out the door - is "I love you" to each other. When speaking on the telephone to any member of my family; hubby, son, daughter, mom, sisters, brother and close friends - our last words are "I love you". I wouldn't change it for the world. JMHO

Then you could be in my family Athena:smile:. Not a day goes by without "I love you" being said to children, to friends, to grandchildren and my adorable hubby who never forgets not even for one day to tell me how much he loves me.

I wouldn't change that for anything.

Our kids laugh and tell me it is a wonder they even have faces since they were kissed and hugged on so much growing up.:biggrin: But what do they do now to their own children? Yep, the same and it is a wonderful thing to witness and be a part of that circle of love. Love is much needed to be shown and felt in this old cynical world we live in.

LOL! I can certainly say my family and I have done our part when it comes to sharing tenderness and heartfelt love with so many.

imo

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 05:45 PM

We really need a theory thread!

I don't think he had lupus

I think he died from a mix of Diprivan and Demerol (at minimum).

I think he was emaciated

all the things the autospy ( if we EVER get it!) should clear up

I agree.

The only thing I'm not sure of in my speculation is if he died of acute affects of mixing two or more drugs that day, or if the cumulative use of other drugs made him vulnerable to the cardiac effects of Diprivan.

I almost started a separate thread the other day, but changed my mind. Go for it, TNT, and I'll post over there (when I get back from running the errands I was supposed to run this morning).

Dunlurken

07-31-2009, 05:49 PM

We say I love you all the time.... well, now all the time. Children are asked to say please and thank you, etc.

Back to MJ... have we confirmed that Michael was in Doctor Murray's room? Sorry, don't have time to read the whole thread. JMO. I thought he was in his own room and the heat was way too hot. Could be another reason for his death. ORs (Operating rooms) are kept very cold to prevent infection/contamination. Any doctor knows this.

Murray is going doooooooooowwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn. JMO.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 05:53 PM

We really need a theory thread!

I don't think he had lupus

I think he died from a mix of Diprivan and Demerol (at minimum).

I think he was emaciated

all the things the autospy ( if we EVER get it!) should clear up

I agree.

And I believe that the initial reports are true. That he was covered with needle marks, for instance. Which even if he were only using diprivan (and I don't believe that), he would have many injection sites.

My two cents of a prediction--he had several drugs in his system.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 05:58 PM

snipped

I did learn that butterfly rashes are also common with rosacea and acne, the latter of which Michael was treated for.

This has all left me with a big "HMMMMMM...." regarding Dr. Klein's statement that he took one look at Michael and knew he had lupus from the butterfly rash on his face.

Dr. Klein gives me the creeps. I wonder how many thousands of dollars he has made off of Michael Jackson? Pardon me for repeating what I said earlier, but there has been so much focus on Murray the past few days, I fear that other Doctors who should also be culpable for this will somehow get off scott free. IMO Klein would be just the type to write a book about it and then go on speaking tours. Off my soapbox now.

I missed the initial Lupus discussion. And, yes, butterfly rashes also common in rosacea and acne. There is an ACC hoops player who had that butterfly rash this season and I thought, wow, rosacea--and turns out I read in the paper it was just acne.

Ugh on Dr Klein. Can you imagine having him treat you? I have the same feelings about him.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 05:59 PM

I agree.

The only thing I'm not sure of in my speculation is if he died of acute affects of mixing two or more drugs that day, or if the cumulative use of other drugs made him vulnerable to the cardiac effects of Diprivan.

I almost started a separate thread the other day, but changed my mind. Go for it, TNT, and I'll post over there (when I get back from running the errands I was supposed to run this morning).

I have a feeling, that the tox screen will show multiple metabolites in his system...however, given what we all know about Diprivan and its narrow margins for errors..in dosing..does it really matter..when the physician treating with the drug didnt have all the necessary supplies and equipement mandated by the monograph of the drug...There is just no excuses there...There should have been airways, ambubag at a minimum..not to mention a monitor to check his cardiac status...I simply do not believe Dr.M. had NO IDEA that MJ had hx of abuses..present or past..after all..even Dr. M.'s lawyer spews that Dr. Murray was a friend..not just a physician..that their relationship was based on friendship...Man...what a crock!! Based on Money maybe..based on his "Opportunity of a Lifetime"..Yeppp..and see where that got him!!

BTW..have you noticed..almost all the Dr.'s that have been interviewed..who treated MJ..say they consider MJ a "Friend"...I wonder what that means?....I have loads of patients I care about..but I dont consider many as "Friends"..and I have dealt with them for years..some of them...It isnt good to pursuit friendship with patients..as it changes the dynamics of "Dr.- Patient" relationships..and its not healthy...For example..I have many Doctors who are friends or friendly..but they do not treat me...they may offer advice but that is where it ends!! and so it should!!

LMS

daniel green

07-31-2009, 06:03 PM

Have you read this? Breaks my heart!

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackson/Story?id=8215396&page=1

How sad is that?

It was a bit unusual in the beginning taking instructions from Prince," said the King of Pop's former personal chef, Doug Jones. "But once I understood the process, he was like a go-between [between] Mr. Jackson and myself."

"Prince was usually the only one that would convey to me certain instructions when Mr. Jackson wanted to eat upstairs," he said. "I looked at him as a young man in a kid's body."

Jones said the preteen was "very mature for his age."

Another Michael Jackson chef Kai Chase, says when she was hired to accompany the "Thriller" singer to London for his comeback concert tour, it was Prince who personally made the request on behalf of his father.

Chase said Prince also was the first one Michael Jackson's personal doctor Dr. Conrad Murray, asked for when he found the singer unresponsive in his bedroom

Casebook case.

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 06:06 PM

http://www.vh1.com/artists/news/1617337/20090731/jackson_michael.jhtml?rsspartner=rssYahooNewscrawl er

Michael Jackson Search Warrants Refer To Singer As 'Addict'
New reports suggest Jackson died in his doctor's bedroom.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 06:07 PM

snipped

This has all left me with a big "HMMMMMM...." regarding Dr. Klein's statement that he took one look at Michael and knew he had lupus from the butterfly rash on his face.

snipped.

Because it's so easy to Dx. :rolleyes: No tests, just by looking. By a dermatologist. Right.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 06:15 PM

Just a thought of the conspiracy category:

Didn't Murray his cell didn't work? -- Maybe he pretended it didn't work to get a phone from someone else... and call the ladies in Houston.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 06:16 PM

I agree.

And I believe that the initial reports are true. That he was covered with needle marks, for instance. Which even if he were only using diprivan (and I don't believe that), he would have many injection sites.

My two cents of a prediction--he had several drugs in his system.

IIRC, it's been reported that Jackson was seeing Klein in the days before his death, right (remember the oft quoted comment about Jackson dancing for Klein's patients in the waiting room?).

So why was he seeing Klein? Was Klein injecting him with Demerol?

Or could Jackson have injected himself some time in the hours before his death? Remember the initial rumor that Jackson had had a demerol injection that day?

Did Murray know any of this?

Not that it would make Murray any less responsible for the misuse of Diprivan. I'm just thinking of what mitigating factors Murray's attorney might come up with. imo

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 06:23 PM

Would you trust him with your children? Would you want him driving a school bus? Flying a plane?

I wouldn't.

I would not but I think we have NO CLUE who does what behind closed doors..so do not be so sure the pilot flying you or the bus driver is not on something cause it happens ...we just do not know about it unless something happens..my bus driver was a drunk I can not count the amount of times we ended up in ditches it got so bad my mom had the principal picking us up until they finally fired him

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 06:28 PM

IIRC, it's been reported that Jackson was seeing Klein in the days before his death, right (remember the oft quoted comment about Jackson dancing for Klein's patients in the waiting room?).

So why was he seeing Klein? Was Klein injecting him with Demerol?

Or could Jackson have injected himself some time in the hours before his death? Remember the initial rumor that Jackson had had a demerol injection that day?

Did Murray know any of this?

Not that it would make Murray any less responsible for the misuse of Diprivan. I'm just thinking of what mitigating factors Murray's attorney might come up with. imo

Dr. Murray's attny will no doubt come up with many excuses...but as MJ's primary caregiver, actually living under the same roof..he not only should have known..because if he didnt he is yet again..negligent..for not obtaining pertain health information..to enable safe health care services..( now that is a joke given what we already know)..and we also know MJ made visits to Dr. Klein 3 times a week..coming out appearing under influence of somethings..and Dr. Murray would like everyone to believe he didnt know about this?..Absolutely..Murray/his lawyer are playing "Dumb"..and it wont work!!

Dr. Klein is going to have to answer for his part..(extensive for decades)..but as Chernoff said..Dr. Murray was the lst Dr. standing..and yep he was..and what he was doing was reckless and endangering his patient which he had contracted to care for at the rate of $5,000.00 a day!!

No excuses..Dr. Murray will be skewered..and so he should..but I also think Dr. Klein and others just may get caught up in the network of wrong doings..even if ondifferent levels..I only hope Dr. Klein losses his license..as he doesnt deserve to be a HC Provider....I will reserve my term for him right now..LOL

LMS:ohmy:

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 06:30 PM

aproudmom

07-31-2009, 06:34 PM

HAPPY B-DAY TO YOU HAPPY B-DAY TO YOU:laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYDKA2-0k8Q
Dr. Arnold Klein's (M. Jackson's dermotologist) birthday party put on by Penny Marshall in NV

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 06:38 PM

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 06:53 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 06:54 PM

Lisa Marie Presley and Michael Jackson

I wondered if some pics were photoshopped... (photomontages; not really the 2 on the pic). The clip finishes with an interview which Lisa Marie ended with the words: "And we don't sleep in separate bed rooms. Thank you."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEMugpCecd0&NR=1&feature=fvwp

You know..I have always wondered why Lisa Marie Preseley even got involved with MJ...Maybe it was her need to nurture..or to try and help a fellow Icon..who knows..but I truly wonder after a mere 20 months of "Coupling" that the divorce based on Lisa Marie Presley filed for divorce Thursday, citing irreconcilable differences, said her publicist, Paul Bloch. Her attorney, John Coale, said she had filed in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9601/jacko_presley/

I really in truly dont believe this was a "Match" made in heaven..but really a run to promote an "Image" to the world....Really sad...to think stars have to go to such lengths to promote themselves...

I really dont think Lisa hold any bad feelings towards MJ..but..what the heck was she doing?..Did she feel sorry for MJ..or did she need exposure?..I have no clue...but for all purposes...it didnt change much other than to deflect certain focus's!!

LMS

GentleBreeze

07-31-2009, 06:55 PM

Wow! look at all of those beer bellys!

Is there something wrong with Klein? He looks like he suffers from something....

Iirc, he is wheelchair bound but I don't know what his particular problem is.

imo

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 07:07 PM

Iirc, he is wheelchair bound but I don't know what his particular problem is.

imo

You know what.. I just went to find out about Dr. Arnold Klein..bio and the like..and got a warning about virus infecting my computer...I'll just bet his IT people have done something to dis-enfranchise anyone from finding out about his background..i am even more weary of this charlaton..his calm kind demeanor on LKL was so false...I'll bet so much will come out about his activities..but will have to wait and see...Im off to clean out all my cookies..and let my firewall and programs do their thing!!

LMS.....BBL :-)

Dunlurken

07-31-2009, 07:10 PM

Is anyone watching HLN? Jackson was in Murray's bed? :confused:

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:22 PM

You know..I have always wondered why Lisa Marie Preseley even got involved with MJ...Maybe it was her need to nurture..or to try and help a fellow Icon..who knows..but I truly wonder after a mere 20 months of "Coupling" that the divorce based on Lisa Marie Presley filed for divorce Thursday, citing irreconcilable differences, said her publicist, Paul Bloch. Her attorney, John Coale, said she had filed in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9601/jacko_presley/

I really in truly dont believe this was a "Match" made in heaven..but really a run to promote an "Image" to the world....Really sad...to think stars have to go to such lengths to promote themselves...

I really dont think Lisa hold any bad feelings towards MJ..but..what the heck was she doing?..Did she feel sorry for MJ..or did she need exposure?..I have no clue...but for all purposes...it didnt change much other than to deflect certain focus's!!

LMS

I agree it was never a match made in heaven; I also think Michael was difficult to live with. Nevertheless I don't think it was an image campaign. She's too straight forward and self confident to pretend something which is not imo.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:24 PM

Thank you. That was a very good video and OMG there you can tell Lisa looks so much like her dad.

What was strange though they had someone else singing "Cant Help Falling in Love", besides Elvis.:confused:

imo

Maybe for copyright reasons?

I didn't notice it. I don't know any Elvis songs -- not even one.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:27 PM

HAPPY B-DAY TO YOU HAPPY B-DAY TO YOU:laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYDKA2-0k8Q
Dr. Arnold Klein's (M. Jackson's dermotologist) birthday party put on by Penny Marshall in NV

He doesn't wear shoes.... -- gross.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:29 PM

I'd bet the confidentiality agreement/ divorce agreement/ prenup is why she never was straight forward on the topic.

I meant opposite: She has a straight forward personality, says the things she thinks..., is direct.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:30 PM

I think MJ was envious of Elvis and Prince...imo

I don't know if he was envy. Prince was a competitor in 80s, yes, but he wasn't as revolutionary as Michael imo.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:37 PM

You know what.. I just went to find out about Dr. Arnold Klein..bio and the like..and got a warning about virus infecting my computer...I'll just bet his IT people have done something to dis-enfranchise anyone from finding out about his background..i am even more weary of this charlaton..his calm kind demeanor on LKL was so false...I'll bet so much will come out about his activities..but will have to wait and see...Im off to clean out all my cookies..and let my firewall and programs do their thing!!

LMS.....BBL :-)

Klein is my main suspect... but I believe him to be too smart that he prescribed or given him drugs in a way one could trace it. Some botox injections for the wife of the pharmaceutical company's boss... and the propofol flows to the Mike.... -- imo, more likely than prescriptions.

All above are my thoughts, no allegations.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 07:49 PM

You know..I have always wondered why Lisa Marie Preseley even got involved with MJ...Maybe it was her need to nurture..or to try and help a fellow Icon..who knows..but I truly wonder after a mere 20 months of "Coupling" that the divorce based on Lisa Marie Presley filed for divorce Thursday, citing irreconcilable differences, said her publicist, Paul Bloch. Her attorney, John Coale, said she had filed in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9601/jacko_presley/

I really in truly dont believe this was a "Match" made in heaven..but really a run to promote an "Image" to the world....Really sad...to think stars have to go to such lengths to promote themselves...

I really dont think Lisa hold any bad feelings towards MJ..but..what the heck was she doing?..Did she feel sorry for MJ..or did she need exposure?..I have no clue...but for all purposes...it didnt change much other than to deflect certain focus's!!

LMS

For what it's worth, in Halperin's book Unmasked, he speculates that it was a match made in Scientology heaven for Lisa and Michael. But Michael refused to be involved with the controversial "religion."

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 07:50 PM

Klein is my main suspect... but I believe him to be too smart that he prescribed or given him drugs in a way one could trace it. Some botox injections for the wife of the pharmaceutical company's boss... and the propofol flows to the Mike.... -- imo, more likely than prescriptions.

All above are my thoughts, no allegations.

Klein..main suspect??/..Suspect maybe to initiate or facilitate abuses..but unfortunatelu for D.r Murray..he continued such abuses..lacking the finesse to walk the fine line..Dr. Klein no doubt has been taking advantage of the system for years..and knew when to cut his loses so to speak..so turned over to Dr. Murray the respsonsibilty..and the huge paycheck...Do ya think Arnold knew the risks werent worth it????Yepppp With "Friends like that"..you dont need enemies...but then again....MJ only wanted friends around who would do what he wanted..or they were banned to the outer circles...So in one sense..MJ created his own concpiracy of sorts..Unfortunately..it caught up with him!!

LMS

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 07:52 PM

For what it's worth, in Halperin's book Unmasked, he speculates that it was a match made in Scientology heaven for Lisa and Michael. But Michael refused to be involved with the controversial "religion."

tiptop, I have no clue what that means.."Scientology"..what would that have to do with it??

Course Ian knows all..and why didnt his knowledge help save MJ??

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 07:57 PM

Klein..main suspect??/..Suspect maybe to initiate or facilitate abuses..but unfortunatelu for D.r Murray..he continued such abuses..lacking the finesse to walk the fine line..Dr. Klein no doubt has been taking advantage of the system for years..and knew when to cut his loses so to speak..so turned over to Dr. Murray the respsonsibilty..and the huge paycheck...Do ya think Arnold knew the risks werent worth it????Yepppp With "Friends like that"..you dont need enemies...but then again....MJ only wanted friends around who would do what he wanted..or they were banned to the outer circles...So in one sense..MJ created his own concpiracy of sorts..Unfortunately..it caught up with him!!

LMS

I meant: Main suspect as a supplier. I doubt Dr. Murray himself could provide it. Imo someone else provided what Dr. Murray administered.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:02 PM

tiptop, I have no clue what that means.."Scientology"..what would that have to do with it??

Course Ian knows all..and why didnt his knowledge help save MJ??

LMS

Scientology is a "religion" started by L. Ron Hubbard. Many famous folks call themselves members. John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Lisa and Priscilla Presley just to name a few. I am merely the messenger --- so dont shoot me. :biggrin:

Halperin speculates that, like Kelly Preston's and John Travolta's marriage; so was Lisa and Michael. Seems like Lisa was only divorced three weeks from former hubby before marrying Michael. Scientologists are famous for "converting" gays and I think that's what they were trying to do with John since he was a big money giver to them. I think their aim (if its all true) was to give credence to Michael's marriage and not have the world proclaim him a child molestor or pedophile. Just my take on things.....

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 08:03 PM

I meant: Main suspect as a supplier. I doubt Dr. Murray himself could provide it. Imo someone else provided what Dr. Murray administered.

Ohhhh..well maybe..the search warrants..and retrieval of harddrives, and receipts will get to the bottom of all that...Klein's input didnt start at that point tho..I think he was the initiator of that "Therapy"....He is one sly fox..and dont trust him..but who the heck am I..nobody..and unless someone who counts comes foreward..he may just get away with his "enabling" persona...I can only hope that LE Investigations can provide some sort of link...???

LMS

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 08:07 PM

Scientology is a "religion" started by L. Ron Hubbard. Many famous folks call themselves members. John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Lisa and Priscilla Presley just to name a few. I am merely the messenger --- so dont shoot me. :biggrin:

Halperin speculates that, like Kelly Preston's and John Travolta's marriage; so was Lisa and Michael. Seems like Lisa was only divorced three weeks from former hubby before marrying Michael. Scientologists are famous for "converting" gays and I think that's what they were trying to do with John since he was a big money giver to them. I think their aim (if its all true) was to give credence to Michael's marriage and not have the world proclaim him a child molestor or pedophile. Just my take on things.....

I do understand the religion of "Scientology"..but just didnt see the connection..you mean that Michael wished to justify whatever by associating with "Scientology"??..then he moves on to Islam?...It seems Michael had an issue with religion..just which doctrine to identify with...???..he sure was a confused soul...Hummm

LMS:blink:

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:07 PM

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:12 PM

I do understand the religion of "Scientology"..but just didnt see the connection..you mean that Michael wished to justify whatever by associating with "Scientology"??..then he moves on to Islam?...It seems Michael had an issue with religion..just which doctrine to identify with...???..he sure was a confused soul...Hummm

LMS:blink:

According to Halperin, Michael really wanted nothing to do with Scientology. And, behind the scenes, things were working for Lisa Marie to marry Michael so as to bring his money into the Scientology fold. Personally, I have always thought Scientology is a money-sucking tool. And this kinda confirmed by beliefs. It appears Michael didnt fall for it and for that I am happy. JMO

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:13 PM

How very interesting.

And he danced for patients in the waiting room? :blink:

Maybe he was high?

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 08:15 PM

According to Halperin, Michael really wanted nothing to do with Scientology. And, behind the scenes, things were working for Lisa Marie to marry Michael so as to bring his money into the Scientology fold. Personally, I have always thought Scientology is a money-sucking tool. And this kinda confirmed by beliefs. It appears Michael didnt fall for it and for that I am happy. JMO

Ill guess we willnever know the true meaning behind it all..and ya gotta know Lisa wont say nothing!!.....

LMS

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:16 PM

This is the Dr. who treated MJ for his lupus:

Michael Jackson was recently warned against the dangers of the powerful anesthetic propofol by one of his former doctors, according to a lawyer for the physician.

Dr. Allan Metzger, an L.A.-based rheumatologist who also specializes in internal medicine, paid a visit to the singer's home in April, says Metzger's attorney Harlan Braun.

"Jackson was looking for propofol and Dr. Metzger turned him down and advised him how dangerous it was," Braun tells PEOPLE. "Apparently, Jackson was shopping around for the drug or looking for someone to administer it to him."

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20295323,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

And he lied about having seen MJ in forever, as per the TMZ link I posted this morning.

crazymama

07-31-2009, 08:16 PM

I remember Dr. Murray saying he didn't give MJ any
demerol or oxy. Just diprivan, that shouldn't have killed
him.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:20 PM

This is the Dr. who treated MJ for his lupus:

snipped

Sounds like another stellar doc:

We've learned a doctor who was reprimanded for prescribing drugs to Janet Jackson using aliases has been asked to turn over his Michael Jackson-related medical files to the L.A. County Coroner's office. Law enforcement sources tell us the coroner has subpoenaed Dr. Allan Metzger's files. As we first reported, Metzger was reprimanded by the Medical Board of California for allegedly writing fraudulent prescriptions for Janet Jackson, "using a false/fictitious name."

At the time we broke the story, Metzger would not say if he used aliases for Michael Jackson when he treated him. But we've now learned Dr. Metzger's files were labeled Omar Arnold/Michael Jackson. There is nothing illegal about using an alias if the patient's real name is also used. We're told Dr. Metzger turned the files over a week ago.
When we spoke with Dr. Metzger on July 5, he told us "I have not treated him [Jackson] for ages." At the time he told us he last spoke with Jackson by phone in April and talked about the tour, his children, nutrition and hydration. We specifically asked Dr. Metzger if he talked to Jackson about Propofol and he said he had not. But now Dr. Metzger's lawyer, Harland Braun, says Dr. Metzger actually went to Jackson's house in April and the singer specifically asked about using Propofol at home, and the doctor advised against it. Braun told us he believed Jackson was asking Dr. Metzger to provide the drug to Jackson but the doctor declined.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/31/michael-jackson-dr-allan-metzger-propofol-la-county-coroner/

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:21 PM

Just heard on TV...the NYC ear nose & throat doctor that conducted the physical for AEG insurance...is under investigation along with many others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hold on. Is that for real that an EN doc performed the physical????? :scared:

crazymama

07-31-2009, 08:21 PM

Dr. David Slavik from Rockstream NY is the AEG
doctor who did the physical.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:22 PM

Ill guess we willnever know the true meaning behind it all..and ya gotta know Lisa wont say nothing!!.....

LMS

Yes, it is a bizarre twist on their marriage. But like you said, I doubt we will ever know the truth.

Personally, I think the marriage of Lisa and Michael was orchestrated in 1994. To advance his standing as a "normal" male and not one of an adult who wanted youngsters sexually - after the 1993 molestation trial. JMO

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:24 PM

Michael Jackson shared many of the typical features of propofol abuse with fellow addicts. He showed signs of deep psychological dependence, begging his nurse for the drug, which induces strong cravings. He also used it to sleep, another common route into propofol addiction. The irony is that the drug does not help sleep, it only induces a coma, which renders users unconscious but leaves them unrefreshed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jul/31/michael-jackson-drugs

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:24 PM

Just heard on TV...the NYC ear nose & throat doctor that conducted the physical for AEG insurance...is under investigation along with many others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whaaaat? I wondered if some of these AEG players would be discovered to be under the influence of someone's money. :scared:

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:26 PM

Yep! Makes your head spin eh?

And ppl believe it was a legit exam????? :blink:

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:31 PM

--------------

but she didnt say they slept in the same bed..............imo

I thought the same thing.

Maybe they did sleep in the same room.....just not together in the same bed.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 08:31 PM

Klein is my main suspect... but I believe him to be too smart that he prescribed or given him drugs in a way one could trace it. Some botox injections for the wife of the pharmaceutical company's boss... and the propofol flows to the Mike.... -- imo, more likely than prescriptions.

All above are my thoughts, no allegations.

Hi who_is_it,

Help me out here. Couldn't Dr. Murray get Propofol on a regular basis for his cosmetic/dermatological procedures? Since it's not controlled, he's doesn't have to account for exactly how and how much is used, right?

I read that Propofol is sometimes used to put people under during chemical peels (something I didn't know -- I assumed that would always just be local anesthesia).

I think you're right on that he may have been the supplier -- past and/or present -- I just wondering why you think he had to do a trade to get it.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 08:36 PM

Hi who_is_it,

Help me out here. Couldn't Dr. Murray get Propofol on a regular basis for his cosmetic/dermatological procedures? Since it's not controlled, he's doesn't have to account for exactly how and how much is used, right?

I read that Propofol is sometimes used to put people under during chemical peels (something I didn't know -- I assumed that would always just be local anesthesia).

I think you're right on that he may have been the supplier -- past and/or present -- I just wondering why you think he had to do a trade to get it.

I just recall a discussion here on the board. Someone posted he was not certified to get it on a regular basis. I don't remember details of the discussion; it could be wrong information.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:37 PM

I wondered how he could have ever passed a real exam. LOL Now I know....he didn't. imo

Yeah, I am beginning to think it was just all about the money. I doubt anyone really cared about Michael and his physical condition. And maybe this is why Michael didnt care either - if we are to believe all this.....

I dont understand why someone would want Diprivan sleep. No REM, no dreams, no real rest? But yet he was addicted to it? My only thought is --- he was addicted to the time when he didnt have to think. Not that he didnt love his kids; but, there were no money issues, no concert promoters, no demanding family members, etc. And on and on it could go. I mean really ---- how much quality sleep could one get being on diprivan all the time? None IMO - it was just the fact that he was totally out of it and didnt have to "think" for a period. JMO

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 08:39 PM

How very interesting.

And he danced for patients in the waiting room? :blink:

Yes, daniel green, on the very Monday before his death:

http://www.hotindienews.com/2009/07/08/104921

//snip//
Klein also says that Jackson did not appear to be in severe pain – or to be battling addiction – during their last meeting, which was the Monday before Jackson’s death. “He danced in my office. He danced for my patients. He was very muscular and he was very very happy and dancing,” Klein says. “I saw nothing at that point I time that would make me worry whatsoever.”
//snip//

Michael Jackson's Dermatologist: MJ was dancing in my office before Death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5OulgQSSkk

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:41 PM

I wondered how he could have ever passed a real exam. LOL Now I know....he didn't. imo

Same way ANS did.

crazymama

07-31-2009, 08:41 PM

His name is Dr. Slavik but can't find him in Rock Stream, NY ??
--------
I couldn/t find anything on him period, but anyway I think
it was from a link you gave here once that said his name
and from Rock Stream.

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 08:44 PM

on my personal favorite topic "Michael and the vile media":

It strikes me with surprise that one of the WORST tabloids of whole Europe, "The Mirror", changed its line completely. They've ALWAYS beaten him up. His performance at the wma they've called "worst music awards". Only a few days after his death they've run the untrue Terry George story. Now they suddenly almost support him:

"That trial ruined his life. People hurt him. He was never the same"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/07/16/that-trial-ruined-his-life-people-hurt-him-he-was-never-the-same-115875-21523312/

Only sad that they couldn't do this during his life time...

---------
Another interesting phenomena is that this hoax that Jordan Chandler lied made it all over the web. If you google for the name you get the hoax on hundreds of blogs. Crazy.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:44 PM

I don't know about the REM thing.....the good people of the board have posted links supporting a person would have vivid dreams while under and others not. So...I dunno???

I know human beings NEED real sleep, and without they go literally insane.

I think there may be a difference in level of unconsciousness depending on the dosage. sedated verses coma

I missed those links supporting dreams under the drugs, thanks.....

I agree though - humans need natural sleep. A time or two under is one thing. But constantly - well, IMO, no way was Michael getting what he needed from this "sleep." I still think it was the time "away" that he craved. Away from the stress and strife of being a superstar. JMO

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:44 PM

Yes, daniel green, on the very Monday before his death:

http://www.hotindienews.com/2009/07/08/104921

//snip//
Klein also says that Jackson did not appear to be in severe pain – or to be battling addiction – during their last meeting, which was the Monday before Jackson’s death. “He danced in my office. He danced for my patients. He was very muscular and he was very very happy and dancing,” Klein says. “I saw nothing at that point I time that would make me worry whatsoever.”
//snip//

snipped

Well, I'll be darned. Muscular, even.

Very, very happy and dancing. Guess there goes the theory of he was seeking out help and feeling horrible, eh?

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 08:46 PM

Maybe he was high?

Hi tiptop!

hmmmm.....I didn't think of that! I wonder if it was before or after any treatment he received from Dr. Klein?!

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:47 PM

I don't know about the REM thing.....the good people of the board have posted links supporting a person would have vivid dreams while under and others not. So...I dunno???

I know human beings NEED real sleep, and without they go literally insane.

I think there may be a difference in level of unconsciousness depending on the dosage. sedated verses coma

I'm going to go with what the anesthesiologist I heard on tv and Dr Pinski said, which is that there is no REM sleep.

The study which has been posted was a small study on propophol on rats and it's iffy on whether or not the rats had REM. The guy who is conducting the study was on the Primetime or whatever show it was earlier this week and he said that the rats did NOT have REM while on propophol.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:50 PM

Hi tiptop!

hmmmm.....I didn't think of that! I wonder if it was before or after his any treatment he received from Dr. Klein?!

Hi Zen,

Well, I thought about both angles. He was high and wanted to keep it going. Or possibly the stories were slightly wrong and he was dancing after he came out of the doc's office.

But I have an open mind. And it's totally possible Michael wanted to dance no matter what the circumstance. JMO

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 08:50 PM

How very interesting.

And he danced for patients in the waiting room? :blink:

This is one of the few things out of Klein's mouth which I believe. He was so excited about the tour that he was dancing at home, too, Kai Chase said.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:51 PM

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/07/77069/index.html

DD mentioned the ENT doc in her report tonight.

And a dentist in LV

A Bev Hills anesthesiologist as well.

tiptop

07-31-2009, 08:54 PM

This is one of the few things out of Klein's mouth which I believe. He was so excited about the tour that he was dancing at home, too, Kai Chase said.

Hmmmm, well if true that would agree with what I said in post #347.....

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 08:54 PM

Well, I'll be darned. Muscular, even.

Very, very happy and dancing. Guess there goes the theory of he was seeking out help and feeling horrible, eh?

I've posted before that I believe he had mood swings (caused or intensified by the drug abuse) -- once enthusiastic, another time sad. What Zen posted about the effects of propofols would perfectly fit.

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 08:54 PM

I just recall a discussion here on the board. Someone posted he was not certified to get it on a regular basis. I don't remember details of the discussion; it could be wrong information.

Ah, thank you. Just wondered what other angle I might have been missing. :smile:

crazymama

07-31-2009, 08:57 PM

I found the article but it doesn't give a location. There are two medical groups in Rock Stream and I pulled up their directories -- not listed there either. Maybe it's just a fake doctor. I can't find anything either and when you search his name it only links back to the original AEG article. Weird

---
ok, I also have this written down about him-Insurance brokerage
Robertson Taylor.

daniel green

07-31-2009, 08:57 PM

Firehead11

07-31-2009, 08:58 PM

Maybe he was high?

Maybe he was happy without being high?

Zenyatta

07-31-2009, 08:58 PM

Well, I'll be darned. Muscular, even.

Very, very happy and dancing. Guess there goes the theory of he was seeking out help and feeling horrible, eh?

Or a certain Doctor is in CYA mode, but my guess would be a bit of both. imo

Lyndawitha"Y

07-31-2009, 08:59 PM

Dr. David Slavik from Rockstream NY is the AEG
doctor who did the physical.

If I only use my Logical hat..I would think that Investigations would check this guy out..not to mention whatever tests he did..This investigation could very well open up a can of worms..like..rubberstamping some policies..Humming..I know I asked back in the beginning..Who the heck did his Health Assessment to okay the policy???...but..I am getting very dis-allusioned with what is correct..versus what was done...Hummm???

LMS

who_is_it

07-31-2009, 09:01 PM

I knew the name but couldn't place him...

"Yesterday Terry – now 42 and a multi-millionaire businessman – said: “Michael was a musical legend and genius. But what he did when I was a teenager was wrong.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-15033-Memphis-Celebrity-Examiner~y2009m6d28-Michael-Jackson-His-first-child-victim-forgives-him (http://www.examiner.com/x-15033-Memphis-Celebrity-Examiner%7Ey2009m6d28-Michael-Jackson-His-first-child-victim-forgives-him)

The Examiner again... - there's Michael hater at work. You know what they claimed these days? -- That they've talked to Jordan.
:lol: All big media outlet hunt him..., can't find him... but this source claims they've talked to him. LMAO. As if.

I more believe what Terry George says on his own website; it makes me shiver:
http://www.terrygeorge.co.uk/home/?topic=76