Gates vs. Crowley vs. Obama Part II

[dinojen]

Being the original thread has gotten to be 30 pages long.. thought we could do CW a favor and start a new one being tomorrow is the "beerfest"... should be lots to talk about...

It's still my opinion it's merely a photo op.. and to try to shut down the talk... but that's JMO

[Lady_Jean_La]

I can't wait to see the photos!

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=crowley&mkt=en-US&FORM=BYFD#JnE9eXAuMTcrd2FyZStzdHJlZXQlMmMrY2FtYnJp ZGdlJTJjK21hJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTQyLjM3MzQ3OD Q5MTgzOSU3ZS03MS4wOTM2ODgwMTExNjk0JTdlNDIuMzYwMTI5 NDk3MjI5MyU3ZS03MS4xMTgzMjE0MTg3NjIy

An interesting view of Dr. Gates house and surrounding area. I can now see how the 911 caller might not be able to see the car. Also, it is easy to see how there could be many witnesses from nearby apartments.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=crowley&mkt=en-US&FORM=BYFD#JnE9eXAuMTcrd2FyZStzdHJlZXQlMmMrY2FtYnJp ZGdlJTJjK21hJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTQyLjM3MzQ3OD Q5MTgzOSU3ZS03MS4wOTM2ODgwMTExNjk0JTdlNDIuMzYwMTI5 NDk3MjI5MyU3ZS03MS4xMTgzMjE0MTg3NjIy

An interesting view of Dr. Gates house and surrounding area. I can now see how the 911 caller might not be able to see the car. Also, it is easy to see how there could be many witnesses from nearby apartments.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Hi Lady!! Thank you for the links, however the bottom two are not working. Could you repost them if you have time. Thanks so much.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I think the beerfest is a wonderful idea! Three guys sitting around talking about nothin ( which is what men do when they drink) and having a good ole time...is buddy bonding it's finest.
I'm proud of Barack for taking the controversy to another level..a level of peace and resolution. He's a good man.


And when Gates and Obama have a beer Lucia Whalen has to deal with her death threats -- because she helped an elderly woman call 911. Obama and Gates took this to a level it did not have to be taken- Obama for not knowing the facts esclated the controversy by commenting on what he did not know and Gates said that Lucia Whalen claimed there were 2 large lack men breaking into his home on the 911 call. He basically says she made a racially motivated 911 call. IMO these comments brought more hate towards Lucia Whalen.

Article below where Gates says 911 caller is basically racially profiling black men.

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

[justaguy]

...and i am DESPERATELY hoping for...

is that the three of them while there...record and put out a drunken "we are the world" type of music video...with dan akroyd singing backup, as he did before.

lyrics written by joan rivers....music..of course the background music to theme from "shaft".

proceeds going to harvard professors club and cambridge police department.

then, i think, we could all get along.

[Carol25]

I am the President of the United States. I have better things to do with my time than get involved, in my capacity, as President, with a problem that a personal friend of mine has.

Where's Yale?

You would think the president would have better things to do.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Hi Lady!! Thank you for the links, however the bottom two are not working. Could you repost them if you have time. Thanks so much.

They were Google Maps links and apparently I don't know how to do it. The links were to street view and give a great idea what the 911 caller was looking at. A driveway or ally is beside the porch, probably where the car was parled. It appears the car could drive off without being seen. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

I think the beerfest is a wonderful idea! Three guys sitting around talking about nothin ( which is what men do when they drink) and having a good ole time...is buddy bonding it's finest.
I'm proud of Barack for taking the controversy to another level..a level of peace and resolution. He's a good man.

The news this morning is that Sgt. Crowley will attend with family, union representative and a lawyer and won't say anything publicly. Dr. Gates may bring some family with him but won't speak publicly. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

:rolleyes: To the post to which you were responding.

Now it comes out Ms Whalen was making the call for another?

This whole IcanBeAsInsaneAsYou incident grows wilder by the day. We've seen and read the police report in which no mention was made as to the caller stating any such thing; then we are to believe Sgt Crowley is concerned about the driver/2nd man in the house. Of course, again in the police report, no mention of the car in question or running the plates.

So many questions unanswered, but we are to believe it is just fine to arrest someone for disorderly conduct for voicing their thoughts!

Did ANYONE see the car?

[Scampi]

Well, the day of the brew-ha-ha has finally arrived. I wonder which one of these men will mention Benjamin Franklin's famous quote:

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”


I have just learned that the domestic beer companies have their hops in a twist because according to reports all three men chose imported beers. Does the drama ever stop? :laugh:

[Barbara2]

Well, the day of the brew-ha-ha has finally arrived. I wonder which one of these men will mention Benjamin Franklin's famous quote:

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”


I have just learned that the domestic beer companies have their hops in a twist because according to reports all three men chose imported beers. Does the drama ever stop? :laugh:

According to MSNBC, Obama chose Bud Light. Blue Moon is brewed in Golden, CO. Only Red Stripe is not in the US. It is Jamaican.

[Barbara2]

A union rep and a lawyer? I thought they just might have fun but I guess that is out of the question now. Sounds like a joke now. A President, a Harvard lawyer, a cop, a union rep and a lawyer walk in to a bar.....

According to MSNBC Crowley is bringing family. Gates is bringing family, his fiancee, a friend and his lawyer.

[Details]

I am the President of the United States. I have better things to do with my time than get involved, in my capacity, as President, with a problem that a personal friend of mine has.

Where's Yale?It's not a problem his personal friend has - it's an opportunity, a moment when this issue, that has festered for centuries, has come up in a form that maybe can allow some progress to be made.

The issue of racial profiling - even while it wasn't there for this case, the issue of how police are portrayed and viewed by minorities, the degree to which this view of police undercuts even interactions with good, non-racist police, and creates in police an understandable expectation that a minority is going to be hostile to them, reinforcing even in good cops the idea that minorities are going to be different, etc. All of this has been building for centuries, from a time when police really could be assumed to be racists, to now - and to have an opportunity to maybe speak a little to that nationwide problem is a good thing.

[ABC]

Gates backed himself into a corner for many reasons.One is that the natrion has taken their mind off health care to talk about this incident. Now he wants it all to go away. He hurt Obama and he knows it.

I hope it's true that Sgt Crowley is bringing a lawyer and a union rep. :thumbsup:

imo
Me too. I think Gates thought his "racial profiling" was going to play in Peoria but now knows that outside of Cambridge, folks don't like "elitist" anybodys making fun of working class cops doing their job and trying to protect the citizens. That "Yo Mamma" is to funny coming from Gates. Sent an email to PBS about the possibility of them doing a Gates Documentary. That does not play with me and hopefully won't play in Peoria.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Let's blame the Pres., and Dr. Gates for the supposed death threats on Whalen's life.:thumbdown:

How does that have anything to do with Pres. Obama, or Dr. Gates.

Lots of opinions that are so based in right wing ideaology that it sickens me.

mo

Wow let me type slowly...

When the "good" professor decided to go on Television and in his national magazine where he said and alluded that Lucia Walen was racist and according to him and she made a racially based 911 call when she described " 2 large black men on the 911 call".

That makes people BELIEVE a LIE that Gates told and makes people think she is a racist when the 911 call clearly shows she is NOT. Unfortunatly he inserted his foot and made many assumptions about Crowley and Wahlen. He was wrong on many fronts and Obama was wrong to comment without knowing all the facts to include the above. His comments esclated the situation.

Here is the article where he implies the 911 caller was racially motivated:


Skip Gates Speaks

The Root's Editor-in-Chief Henry Louis Gates Jr. talks about his arrest and the outrage of racial profiling in America.
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

The 911 call was not released until about week after this aticle and the truth was FINALLY Known!

[Details]

To suggest that an ACCURATE description of what was happening is a racist act - that alone is so very wrong. Two black men did break into the house - had she said that on the 911 call, or to the police officer, she would have been doing nothing but telling the absolute truth.

How warped do you have to be to see that as wrong? Reporting a break-in is wrong, if you accurately portray the men who are doing so? Or is it that reporting a break-in is wrong if black men are doing it? I suspect all it really is is that reporting a break-in is wrong if it inconveniences ME!



Seriously - can anyone explain this to me? Obviously a lot of people 'get it' enough to threaten Lucia over it, call people racist for this - so maybe one of them is here and can explain how an accurate report of a usually criminal act, is a racist thing.

[Lady_Jean_La]

BREAKING NEWS.... Meeting has been moved to Rose Garden...now Rose Garden Summit. ABC news report. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

According to MSNBC, Obama chose Bud Light. Blue Moon is brewed in Golden, CO. Only Red Stripe is not in the US. It is Jamaican.

According to FOX all three companies are foreign owned. imo

[Veritas]

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6M8ErfKYiE)

Jessie Peterson comments.

[ABC]

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6M8ErfKYiE)

Jessie Peterson comments.
I am a huge fan of Jesse Lee Peterson.:thumbup:

[Lady_Jean_La]

did they say why?TIANo. I am guessing too many for the picnic table.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

To suggest that an ACCURATE description of what was happening is a racist act - that alone is so very wrong. Two black men did break into the house - had she said that on the 911 call, or to the police officer, she would have been doing nothing but telling the absolute truth.

How warped do you have to be to see that as wrong? Reporting a break-in is wrong, if you accurately portray the men who are doing so? Or is it that reporting a break-in is wrong if black men are doing it? I suspect all it really is is that reporting a break-in is wrong if it inconveniences ME!



Seriously - can anyone explain this to me? Obviously a lot of people 'get it' enough to threaten Lucia over it, call people racist for this - so maybe one of them is here and can explain how an accurate report of a usually criminal act, is a racist thing.


Bears repeating, especially this bit:


How warped do you have to be to see that as wrong? Reporting a break-in is wrong, if you accurately portray the men who are doing so? Or is it that reporting a break-in is wrong if black men are doing it? I suspect all it really is is that reporting a break-in is wrong if it inconveniences ME!


I wonder if anyone will address this?

Excellent post Details, once again!

[flareon]

BREAKING NEWS.... Meeting has been moved to Rose Garden...now Rose Garden Summit. ABC news report. imo

Gee, I guess once they factored in the TOTUS ( and or multiple TOTUSES), they probably realized they needed a larger space. :biggrin:

[Lady_Jean_La]

I plan to have a beer and symbolicly join the summit at 6 p.m. :beer: I encourage everyone to join us. imo :beer:

[Hey Paula]

I plan to have a beer and symbolicly join the summit at 6 p.m. :beer: I encourage everyone to join us. imo :beer:

The brewhaha (sic) continues! :beer:

[MaybytheBay]

OMG the whole United States is going to be hungover tomorrow!!! :sad: LOL


Suppose a beer Czar is in order..?.....:biggrin:

[LisaM22]

Crowley approaches the house expecting to find two criminals, of course at first he was probably treating Gates as a criminal, what else could he do, I am sure Gate's took it personal the attitude the police officer was using and treating him as if he was a criminal, mistake, when he first said this is my house and the officer said can you prove it, Gate's took that as not being believed, got his id and showed the officer, at that point the officer should of shifted gears, and tried to cool the situation down, but now gates was upset with him and that upset the cop and the arrest happened shortly after, we can all see how this went down, both parties were taking this personal, when really neither should of, they should of just known this kinda stuff happens, I say the cop should of known that more so then Gates, but Gate's is a big boy too, I professional, I think he should of known better too, but the officer is the one that went overboard with the arrest, that is the part that never should of happened, the officer should of had another take over if he was unable to continue at that point, no shame in that, the officer just risked his life to save this residence, his adrenalin was pumping, he probably wasn't thinking clearly either, so no one is really at fault, it was just the way the circumstances led them, both men should be man enough to apologize to each other and put this behind them - as for Obama, he needs to stay out of these kinda conflicts where he appears to have a obvious bias, we saw enough of that with Bush - I want Obama to succeed and stuff like this doesn't do anyone any good

we all see with 20\20 hindsight without the emotion of that day, lots of adrenaline and such in those few minutes, lots of mistaken assumptions on both sides

[LisaM22]

I plan to have a beer and symbolicly join the summit at 6 p.m. :beer: I encourage everyone to join us. imo :beer:

what a great idea.... gonna have to run to the store and get a 12 pack of root beer and some ice cream :beer:

[Roux]

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6M8ErfKYiE)

Jessie Peterson comments.

Amen Rev. Jessie, amen!

[Lady_Jean_La]

The brewhaha (sic) continues! :beer:

:laugh::patriot: I love it!

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I brought this over from the end of the closed thread:

cbhopes question:

Originally Posted by cbhope1030

I'd love to know what those defenders of Gates would be saying were the situation a little different.

Say Gates was David Duke and the PO was black. The whole scenario is the exact same as this but the man trying to 'break in' (Gates own words) is Duke and the PO is black. How many of the defenders of Gates would be defending Duke?

Response from LisaM22:

Originally Posted by LisaM22

I think the black cop would let a white cop take over when one arrived if he was having those kinda issues with the man, just like if a women is having issues with a man cop, a women takes over if one is avail - common sense

Two things here, what if the black cop was fed up and had already arrested the man for disturbing the peace?


The second item is this? Are we to assure that we have every race of cop available at all times to assure that if the situation deems necessary we will have an officer of another race, religion, gender take over if needed? Sounds farfetched, and almost impossible at time given the nature of police work. The PC stuff is going far too far in many areas.

[LisaM22]

I brought this over from the end of the closed thread:

cbhopes question:



Response from LisaM22:



Two things here, what if the black cop was fed up and had already arrested the man for disturbing the peace?


The second item is this? Are we to assure that we have every race of cop available at all times to assure that if the situation deems necessary we will have an officer of another race, religion, gender take over if needed? Sounds farfetched, and almost impossible at time given the nature of police work. The PC stuff is going far too far in many areas.

if the option was available you use it, if it's not you make do with what you have, common sense

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

if the option was available you use it, if it's not you make do with what you have, common sense


As an example:


Are you saying that if a Muslim were robbing a bank we need to have a Muslim police officer arrest him if her or she were avaliable?

Do you really think that a criminal ( if he is indeed robbing a bank) has the "right" to have a person of the same faith or race or culture he/sh is arrest him?

Do you think that high stress, tension filled police have the wherewithall to think oops this man is wearing a turban-- he may be Afghani, he may be Sikh, he may be Rajasthan. So I had better call back up of any religion and or nationality that may wear turbans.... Then I need to consider I may still have it wrong and I had better ask the bank robber if he is any of the above or if he may be Hajji.

I do not think that you are taking into consideration the strees and time limitations and near snap decision making that goes into policeing.

[LisaM22]

Based on your response, LisaM, it appears that you are saying that when there is a white perp, a white cop s/ handle him/her; if there is a black perp, a black cop s/ handle him/her; etc. How unfortunate that there are still so many Americans who are not colorblind when it comes to their fellow Americans. :mellow:

when there is a female that is claiming sexual harassment by a male cop, a female cop if available should take over, all I am saying - it' protects the cop as well as keeps the situation from escalating, common sense

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Based on your response, LisaM, it appears that you are saying that when there is a white perp, a white cop s/ handle him/her; if there is a black perp, a black cop s/ handle him/her; etc. How unfortunate that there are still so many Americans who are not colorblind when it comes to their fellow Americans. :mellow:


Quite, sounds like "segration" of criminal conduct.

[LisaM22]

Quite, sounds like "segration" of criminal conduct.

once he found out the suspect was the resident and NOT a criminal, he should of been doing everything in his power to ease his unintended victim
the cop was treating the victim like a criminal and the victim was thinking he was being treated like a criminal because he was black....

instead of the cop treating him like a victim after he knew the truth he tried to make him into a criminal :(

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

once he found out the suspect was the resident and NOT a criminal, he should of been doing everything in his power to ease his unintended victim
the cop was treating the victim like a criminal and the victim was thinking he was being treated like a criminal because he was black....

instead of the cop treating him like a victim after he knew the truth he tried to make him into a criminal :(

Ah what was Gates a victim of? Breaking into him own home because the door was jammed?

Why do you call Gates a victim? Victim of what, a passerby seeing 2 men shoulder their way into a door, calling the police to assure her fellow citizens are safe? Yet, when a cop arrives he is treated in a criminal manner himself for doing his job?

[Lady_Jean_La]

Relatives say Henry Gates Sr., the 96-year-old father of Harvard professor Henry Gates Jr., and the scholar's brother, Paul, were traveling from their Wayne home to Washington for the event.

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/4907948.php?contentType=4&contentId=4434429

[Scampi]

Just popped open an ice cold Miller Chill, I'm starting early. Cheers everyone! :beer:

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Gates would have been a victim had their been a break-in. So I guess that makes him a potential victim.

The potential victim harassed the cop for trying to protect him.

Unbelievable!

imo


A potential victim who KNEW that he may have just caused the situation creating the need for someone to dial 911. He was on the phone telling the maintenance company his just had to break into his own home.

You're right, it is totally unbelievable that Gates acted in the manner he did!

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Just popped open an ice cold Miller Chill, I'm starting early. Cheers everyone! :beer:

Cheers, I will have one of Lisa's rootbeers (if that is okay with her). Minus the icecream, just had a root canal and my gums are sensitive.

[Lady_Jean_La]

BREAKING NEWS... They have arrived and are taking seperate tours of the White House which will end at the Rose Garden in about 50 minutes. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//090730/480/e24d7c06bbba427498ad6288596a5ba7/

Gatesgate slideshow

[Barbara2]

Fox got it right. Blue Moon is made in Canada. Red Stripe is Jamaican (and really good) and Bud (Light?) is manufactured by Anheiser-Busch which was bought by a Belgian company in 1982.

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/lager-heads/anheuser-busch/2009/07/after-obama-chooses-bud-light-craft-brewers-say-dude-in-a-disappointed-voice/

You are absolutely right. I don't know where I got the idea that Blue Moon was in Colorado. I definitely stand corrected. Please don't tell me that MGD 64 is not of the US. I at least want to add an American beer to the international happy hour tonight!

[Lady_Jean_La]

The Associated Press is reporting that Crowley will hold a news conference after the event, at about 7:30 p.m. EDT.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/07/a_very_private.html

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//090730/480/e24d7c06bbba427498ad6288596a5ba7/

Gatesgate slideshow

"White House Gates-Crowley chat over beers"

Gatesgates is correct, why only pictures of Obama and Gates none of Crowley? Asking with tongue firmly in cheek -- believing this would be the first thing asked if Gates was not pictured after the recent brewhaha.

[Lady_Jean_La]

FOX and CNN have video, VP Biden is there also. All are drinking beer and some are eating nuts. It looks casual and friendly. imo

[Details]

Why is he he holding a pc if gates isn't?

That just bolsters gates' elitism that he's too important to do so.

imoSo he gets to speak his mind, to no rebuttal - how is this a bad thing? And why should anyone be elitist, just to prevent an elitist from being the only one? If, that is, not speaking is elitist - I'd think speaking is elitist - to think what you say is so important it needs a press conference. Just sounds like a no win scenario - if you want to see something bad here, you can, no matter which choice Gates or Crowley makes.

Sorry - this is all too weird for me. Crowley should do what he likes, and Gates should do what he likes - if Gates doesn't want to talk, to paint that as elitist seems quite the jump - maybe he just doesn't figure he'll have anything to say. Maybe he knows anything he says will likely NOT go over well. Who knows?

But I sure want to hear from Crowley, and I'm not too much interested in Gates - so that works for me.



Crowley is the guy who came right out and said "No apologies" - even when the President was on the other side - I don't buy that this is a guy who caves and says what his captain wants.

[Barbara2]

The reporter on ABC just indicated that they expect to hear from both Gates and Crowley.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Dr. Gates is working on his second beer. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/502*316/1obama073009.jpg


Looks friendly.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

lol. Can you figure out why?

Ah, um to keep him away from the press so he does not make any more "boo-boos" with his mouth? :laugh:

[flareon]

lol. Can you figure out why?

Maybe it was intentional. Obama figured Biden would talk so much, no one else would be able to say anything that could cause friction. Of course that is risking a lot considering Biden's history of gaffs.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Maybe it was intentional. Obama figured Biden would talk so much, no one else would be able to say anything that could cause friction. Of course that is risking a lot considering Biden's history of gaffs.
I figure let VP Biden talk after the meeting and President Obama will be off the hook.

[Details]

I hope you are right on that last statement Details.He said no apologies - and he made it stick.


The question to me is - if he speaks his mind - will those who don't want to hear what he chooses to say - label it as something he was forced to say? Or can everyone accept that maybe this guy is saying what he means - whatever it will be.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsJHgLY7fys&feature=player_embedded

Video of meeting

[Lady_Jean_La]

One surprise was the vice president's presence. He hadn't mentioned as a participant. There are a few possibilities for why he was there.

Scranton, Pa.-born Biden has been Obama's emissary to working class white Americans, especially men. So having him there arguably made some sense.

Another possibility is that it was done for symmetry. Instead of having two black guys appearing to double-team a white guy, Biden's presence brought parity.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/07/obama_beer_photo_op_now_part_o.html

[ortiga]

The victim was apparently acting like an animal.

Are we having bar-b-que?


Please, a link to your allegation that Gates was acting like an "animal".


Or did you mean someone else?

[Lady_Jean_La]

On Larry King tonight - Ann Coulter and Al Sharpton. :laugh:

Should be good.

ETA - Anybody need a job? Larry needs a producer.

imo

Sharpton Vows To Crusade For Harvard Prof Gates

http://gothamist.com/2009/07/22/sharpton_vows_to_crusade_for_harvar.php

[emdragon]

Al is ridiculous. lol.

"If this can happen to him..." Al says, meaning Gates.

If what can happen to him?

Someone called in a possible B&E at his house. That's what happened.

imo

Guess as usual you miss the obvious even in your own post.

"HIS HOUSE"

[LisaM22]

Ah what was Gates a victim of? Breaking into him own home because the door was jammed?

Why do you call Gates a victim? Victim of what, a passerby seeing 2 men shoulder their way into a door, calling the police to assure her fellow citizens are safe? Yet, when a cop arrives he is treated in a criminal manner himself for doing his job?

he was a victim of being treated like a criminal (even though it was unintended) and later arrested in his own home

[ortiga]

I said "apparently" acting like an animal.

imo

Same request then, because I saw/heard no news report that alleged, stated, or implied that Gates was acting like an animal.

So, where did you hear that? Link, please.

[Lady_Jean_La]

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama is hailing his meeting with professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and policeman James Crowley as a "friendly, thoughtful conversation." In a statement after the three men and Vice President Joe Biden chatted over beers, Obama said he learned that Gates and Crowley had already spent some time talking with each other. He called that "a testament to them."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/30/AR2009073000691.html

[bchand]

On Larry King tonight - Ann Coulter and Al Sharpton. :laugh:

Should be good.

ETA - Anybody need a job? Larry needs a producer.

imo

You know, I cannot think of 2 other people on earth I would rather NOT hear from forensicpsy. lol

[Details]

Guess as usual you miss the obvious even in your own post.

"HIS HOUSE"A great many people have been arrested at their own house - it is indeed possible to do something against the law at your own house, on your own property - and there's no way for the police to know it is HIS HOUSE until HE proves that to them.

So - HIS HOUSE - doesn't mean a thing other than that he shouldn't be arrested for B&E once he shows something to prove he lives there.

[Lady_Jean_La]

In the letter, which was also sent to CNN, Lashley says Gates "may have caused grave and potentially irreparable harm to the struggle for racial harmony."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ilL8UZM0O1LZ4ebniMofKn3_M-SAD99P2S5G0

[Lady_Jean_La]

A great many people have been arrested at their own house - it is indeed possible to do something against the law at your own house, on your own property - and there's no way for the police to know it is HIS HOUSE until HE proves that to them.

So - HIS HOUSE - doesn't mean a thing other than that he shouldn't be arrested for B&E once he shows something to prove he lives there.

The house belongs to Harvard. imo

[ortiga]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ilL8UZM0O1LZ4ebniMofKn3_M-SAD99P2S5G0


Oh, I can think of a few other happenings along the last few decades that really could have "caused grave and potentially irreparable harm to the struggle for racial harmony."

A little hyperbole I'd say.

I'm still waiting to hear where the police report came up with the story that the lady who called in the 911 report said there were 2 black men with backpacks. Given that anyone who is interested in the truth has already heard the 911 tape.

[Barbara2]

I watched Sgt. Crowley's press conference and thought it was very good. He was supportive of the idea of looking forward and both men learning from each others perspectives. They have another private meeting planned.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

he was a victim of being treated like a criminal (even though it was unintended) and later arrested in his own home

And? Gates admits he was being uncooperative, he refused to answer questions. The policeman was sent to do a job--- one Gates refused to allow him to do. If Gates had been cooperative I'm sure the suituation would have been a lot different.

[ortiga]

And? Gates admits he was being uncooperative, he refused to answer questions. The policeman was sent to do a job--- one Gates refused to allow him to do. If Gates had been cooperative I'm sure the suituation would have been a lot different.

What report says that Gates "refused to answer questions"?

Gates showed his ID, 2 pieces IIRC. What questions did he refuse to answer?

[Lady_Jean_La]

I watched Sgt. Crowley's press conference and thought it was very good. He was supportive of the idea of looking forward and both men learning from each others perspectives. They have another private meeting planned.He certainly appeared to be a true gentleman. imo

[Details]

What report says that Gates "refused to answer questions"?

Gates showed his ID, 2 pieces IIRC. What questions did he refuse to answer?GATES's own report says he refused to answer questions. His own interview in his own magazine.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I've wondered why Harvard doesn't provide Gates with a nicer house?
IMOJust guessing but from looking at the map it is close to everything. Dr. Gates can just walk to his job and activities. imo

[Details]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ilL8UZM0O1LZ4ebniMofKn3_M-SAD99P2S5G0It is nice - for once, when one of these situations happens - we've got a cop with an excellent record on race, backed up by black collegues, and a black officer on the scene, who was willing and able to say exactly what he saw go down.

Not so easy to just call it racism.

[ortiga]

GATES's own report says he refused to answer questions. His own interview in his own magazine.

IIRC, he refused to step outside. I haven't seen any reports of him refusing to answer questions; he went to the table to show 2 pieces of ID, one with the address of the house and his name on it.

What other questions would the police officer need to ask?

Gates has "his own" magazine?

Who do you think put that information in the police report about the 911 caller saying that there were 2 black men with backpacks at the door?

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

What report says that Gates "refused to answer questions"?

Gates showed his ID, 2 pieces IIRC. What questions did he refuse to answer?

Gates says he refused to answer questions in this article where he gives an interview to his own magazine:


Skip Gates Speaks

The Root's Editor-in-Chief Henry Louis Gates Jr. talks about his arrest and the outrage of racial profiling in America.

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

He does not say what questions he refused to answer.

[Details]

Oh, I can think of a few other happenings along the last few decades that really could have "caused grave and potentially irreparable harm to the struggle for racial harmony."

A little hyperbole I'd say.

I'm still waiting to hear where the police report came up with the story that the lady who called in the 911 report said there were 2 black men with backpacks. Given that anyone who is interested in the truth has already heard the 911 tape.No matter how often you repeat this - it will not become the truth. The police report nowhere claims the 911 call said 2 black men. So that tape is irrelevant to determine the truth of this claim.

And - to the link - I think he can speak for himself. He's a black police officer, one who has been promoted a bit - and while no doubt there are other things that caused grave harm - this is indeed not a good one. I don't know what he sees - and no doubt it's exaggerated because he's getting the namecalling and denigration for being on the opposite side some people expect a member of his race to be - but I can sure see it.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Policeman calls White House meeting productive

AP

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4TAbX5fIxkXoj9R_-Uldl6a8jygD99P37HO1

More meetings planned.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

IIRC, he refused to step outside. I haven't seen any reports of him refusing to answer questions; he went to the table to show 2 pieces of ID, one with the address of the house and his name on it.

What other questions would the police officer need to ask?

Gates has a magazine?

He does indeed, the very same magazine where he said he refused to answr questions AND he intimates that the 911 caller/report was racially profiling him. Which IMO lead to the threats that Wahlen recieved.

The article:

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

Skip Gates Speaks

The Root's Editor-in-Chief Henry Louis Gates Jr. talks about his arrest and the outrage of racial profiling in America.

About a week later the 911 call was released and we found out that Walhen was anything but racist.

[Lady_Jean_La]

IIRC, he refused to step outside. I haven't seen any reports of him refusing to answer questions; he went to the table to show 2 pieces of ID, one with the address of the house and his name on it.

What other questions would the police officer need to ask?

Gates has "his own" magazine?

Who do you think put that information in the police report about the 911 caller saying that there were 2 black men with backpacks at the door?

IIRC Dr. Gates was asked if there was anyone else in the house and he refused to answer. :scared:

[Details]

IIRC, he refused to step outside. I haven't seen any reports of him refusing to answer questions; he went to the table to show 2 pieces of ID, one with the address of the house and his name on it.

What other questions would the police officer need to ask?

Gates has "his own" magazine?

Who do you think put that information in the police report about the 911 caller saying that there were 2 black men with backpacks at the door?Yes. Gates is Editor in Chief of a magazine. He gave them several interviews that were published in it. In those interviews, Gates gives his version of what happened - and that does include his clear statement that he refused to answer questions - but he does not say what he refused to answer.

What other questions? Well - IIRC - in the police report, he refused to answer where the other man was. An essential question for the police - two men were seen breaking into a house. Only one is found there, he is uncooperative, bellergient, unwilling to show ID for a little - then shows a Harvard ID - but won't say where the other man is. Were this a robbery - the other man could be getting ready to take down the cop. Were this a home invasion, both other men could be in another room, having promised to kill the homeowner if he doesn't get rid of the cop. It's a reasonable question to ask - and IIRC, in the police report, Gates never does answer it.



It was in Crowley's police report, IIRC. Thus, Crowley put it in there. He NEVER claims it came from the 911 call, from dispatch. He says it is from a woman at the scene, and he thinks that woman is Lucia Whalen. She says she didn't speak to him. There was another woman - maybe he was speaking with her, or both. Maybe it was Lucia, and she's trying to get away from the threats and racist hatred by lying about her statements, since apparently an ACCURATE description of what is happening is enough to get a lot of threats. Maybe Crowley somehow made it up.

However - there's no reason to make it up. The 911 call says 2 men breaking in - that's probable cause to go in there, find out who is there, and where the 2nd man is. All the additional conversation does is give those looking for racism a reason to claim he knew the people were black, and thus went in there differently than had he not know the race of those involved. It doesn't 'help' Crowley at all.

[justaguy]

i sooo wanted drunked kareokee. thats something we all could get with. the rest...the professor has his belief, the officer his...and the rest of us ours.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Crowley: Gates and I "Agreed To Disagree"

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/30/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5199511.shtml

Crowley said no apologies were offered at the meeting. He described it as "a positive step" and said the two men did not spend time "reliving the events of the past few weeks."

[Hey Paula]

It is nice - for once, when one of these situations happens - we've got a cop with an excellent record on race, backed up by black collegues, and a black officer on the scene, who was willing and able to say exactly what he saw go down.

Not so easy to just call it racism.

I agree, but regret that Sgt Lashley was labeled "Uncle Tom" for speaking the truth. Such undeserved and unfair labels set race relations back.

IMO

[ortiga]

Gates says he refused to answer questions in this article where he gives an interview to his own magazine:


Skip Gates Speaks

The Root's Editor-in-Chief Henry Louis Gates Jr. talks about his arrest and the outrage of racial profiling in America.

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

He does not say what questions he refused to answer.

He said "question", not "questions". And that was after he had turned over his ID. I can't think of a question the police officer would have asked at that point, he should have given his name and badge number, and then left right away. IMO

"So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer. And I said I want your name and your badge number because I want to file a complaint because of the way he had treated me at the front door. He didn’t say, ‘Excuse me, sir, is there a disturbance here, is this your house?’—he demanded that I step out on the porch, and I don’t think he would have done that if I was a white person."

[Details]

Crowley: Gates and I "Agreed To Disagree"

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/30/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5199511.shtmlYep - that's the Crowley I'd expect to see. Nice to see something positive coming from this. And no surprise that Gates didn't shift his position any. Even if he didn't - next time a white cop comes to his house, he will have something to think of other than all of the racial profiling and racist incidents he normally spends his time thinking about. That alone is a great step.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5198999n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

President Obama comment

[Details]

I agree, but regret that Sgt Lashley was labeled "Uncle Tom" for speaking the truth. Such undeserved and unfair labels set race relations back.

IMOYep. And that Lucia was called such vile names and threatened for the mere suggestion that she dared to ACCURATELY described a break-in.

[Details]

I just saw the PC. Crowley said, with regard to Gates, "We agree to disagree".

He never caved.

Love it!

imoToldyaso! :tonguewag:

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

He said "question", not "questions". And that was after he had turned over his ID. I can't think of a question the police officer would have asked at that point, he should have given his name and badge number, and then left right away. IMO

"So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer. And I said I want your name and your badge number because I want to file a complaint because of the way he had treated me at the front door. He didn’t say, ‘Excuse me, sir, is there a disturbance here, is this your house?’—he demanded that I step out on the porch, and I don’t think he would have done that if I was a white person."


So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer.

He asked me another question which I refused to answer. To me it reads he refused to answer more than one.

You too think even though TWO men were reported breaking in the officer should not have confirmed if Gates were safe and another man not hiding waiting to do harm to him?

How could the officer have done such with Gates refusing to answer? It does not matter if it were one or two-- the officer was blocked from doing his job by Gates, period.

[Details]

He said "question", not "questions". And that was after he had turned over his ID. I can't think of a question the police officer would have asked at that point, he should have given his name and badge number, and then left right away. IMO

"So he’s looking at my ID, he asked me another question, which I refused to answer. And I said I want your name and your badge number because I want to file a complaint because of the way he had treated me at the front door. He didn’t say, ‘Excuse me, sir, is there a disturbance here, is this your house?’—he demanded that I step out on the porch, and I don’t think he would have done that if I was a white person."He's dead wrong - anyone, white, black, or maroon, would have been asked to step outside. Inside the house is a more dangerous spot for the officer - for all he knows, the second man is behind a door with a gun anywhere in there.

Someone posted the types of calls where police tend to die. Investigating reports of robbery was right up there.

And the police report gives a question Gates refused to answer - and it is indeed valid - "Where is the other man?".

[ortiga]

He's dead wrong - anyone, white, black, or maroon, would have been asked to step outside. Inside the house is a more dangerous spot for the officer - for all he knows, the second man is behind a door with a gun anywhere in there.

And the police report gives a question Gates refused to answer - and it is indeed valid - "Where is the other man?".

The PO had the ID, why would there be any more questions at all?

If you read the link you posted, Gates explained what happened when he finally did step outside, and what one of the PO said to him then.

"The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’"

[Lady_Jean_La]

CHRIS MATTHEWS: I have to tell you: well I feel like we're watching "Britain's Got Talent," here. We'll be right back with Mark Whitaker and Roger Simon here on the Politics Fix. We've got our Susan Boyle here.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2009/07/30/matthews-condescends-crowley-weve-got-our-susan-boyle-here

Remember when Joe Biden got raked over the coals during the primaries for calling Obama "articulate"? Odds that Matthews undergoes the same kind of criticism for being surprised a cop could handle himself well?

[Hey Paula]

Yep. And that Lucia was called such vile names and threatened for the mere suggestion that she dared to ACCURATELY described a break-in.

ITA! I wonder if Al Sharpton will address this, inasmuch as it was his niece who went after Ms Whalen.

[Patriot]

I just saw the PC. Crowley said, with regard to Gates, "We agree to disagree".

He never caved.

Love it!

imo


As do I. I wish he had never gone to the beerfest to begin with, but hats off to Officer Crowley for not caving. (Not that I expected anything less from the info we've gotten about him already).

:thumbup:

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

The PO had the ID, why would there be any more questions at all?

If you read the link you posted, Gates explained what happened when he finally did step outside, and what one of the PO said to him then.

"The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’"

Because the report said TWO men were breaking in. They had to assertain if there was another man in the house.

[Hey Paula]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2009/07/30/matthews-condescends-crowley-weve-got-our-susan-boyle-here

It's too bad I can't credit CM with such talent because I'm never surprised at what comes out of his mouth or what crawls up his leg.

[Details]

The PO had the ID, why would there be any more questions at all?

If you read the link you posted, Gates explained what happened when he finally did step outside, and what one of the PO said to him then.

"The mistake I made was I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.’"And I don't buy it for an instant. There is no law that says you cannot be arrested inside of your house. Not a thing. Not a hint of anything. No reason they'd need him to step outside for an arrest. But yeah - every other officer is lying, right? Even the black officer being called an Uncle Tom for failing to hold an opinion some think should be dictated by his race, rather than by what he believes to be true.

I already made a long post as to why there are more questions even with ID. If you can't be bothered to read it, I can't be bothered to post it twice in what - 20 minutes? #139 - there you go.

[Hey Paula]

As do I. I wish he had never gone to the beerfest to begin with, but hats off to Officer Crowley for not caving. (Not that I expected anything less from the info we've gotten about him already).

:thumbup:

I'd hoped Sgt Crowley hadn't gone either because I believed he wouldn't have gotten the apology he deserved from Gates and Obama, but kudos to Crowley for standing his ground.

[Barbara2]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2009/07/30/matthews-condescends-crowley-weve-got-our-susan-boyle-here

I understand what he is saying. Crowley was very cool under the glare of the press. They were trying to trip him up and he just maintained his stance and supported it with positive statements. He didn't have the staged, pre-screened questions and yet he was able to maintain his poise and not put his foot in his mouth. I was concerned when I heard that he was doing a press conference but I thought it was perfect.

[ortiga]

Because the report said TWO men were breaking in. They had to assertain if there was another man in the house.

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMO

[Barbara2]

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMO

The officer didn't have the advantage of hearing what was said in the 911 call until after the fact. He got information relayed to him from the dispatcher. That's the information that he was working from in going into the situation.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMO

You know-- the policeman on the way to the call DO NOT hear the 911 call. The dispacher told him poice officers responding:

"possible B&E with TWO males-- one possibly hispanic"

So the police man was looking for 2 males.

[ortiga]

And I don't buy it for an instant. There is no law that says you cannot be arrested inside of your house. Not a thing. Not a hint of anything. No reason they'd need him to step outside for an arrest. But yeah - every other officer is lying, right? Even the black officer being called an Uncle Tom for failing to hold an opinion some think should be dictated by his race, rather than by what he believes to be true.

I already made a long post as to why there are more questions even with ID. If you can't be bothered to read it, I can't be bothered to post it twice in what - 20 minutes? #139 - there you go.

I thought you were the one that posted Gates' interview. I'm not asking you to post any long post about ID. I read the interview that IIRC you posted to prove that Gates said he didn't answer "questions", but, in fact, he said he didn't answer a question, ie singular.

Most of you on this thread seem to buy the idea that the situation was completely one-sided, that there was someone good, and someone bad, with two posters opining that Gates acted like an "animal", one even asking if bar-be-que was served at the meeting.

I think that nothing is quite so cut and dried as some of you seem to think. Police officers are trained to let verbal altercations roll off their backs, and as long as there was no physical contact, they had no reason to prove their point, IMO, arresting him just to show their power.

IMO

[Lady_Jean_La]

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMO

It has been explained that it was standard procedure. imo

[ortiga]

You know-- the policeman on the way to the call DO NOT hear the 911 call. The dispacher told him poice officers responding:

"possible B&E with TWO males-- one possibly hispanic"

So the police man was looking for 2 males.

After they had Gates' ID, there was no reason to go after the 2nd man, IMO. It was time for the police to respectfully leave.

[Details]

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMOIt said 2 men. So the police do really want to know where the second man is. I've explained why in a previous post you seem to have missed.

And - if you fail somehow to note - there is NO question that two black men broke into that house. That is what happened. That's the truth. They did so because the door and the lock had been damaged by a previous break in. The caller said she was unsure - but the police have to look to it as a break-in until proven otherwise. With such irrational hostility right from the start (by Gates account - he was imagining the cop as a virulent racist looking for an excuse to arrest him right from the start) - they've got reason to wonder if something more is going on.

[ortiga]

It has been explained that it was standard procedure. imo

I think it is standard procedure to give out badge numbers and names.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

The report (or should I say the 911 call, who knows what finally ended up in the report, and it's a good thing that lady spoke up about what she did/didn't say to the police) didn't even say that two men were "breaking in". Listen to the 911 call. After the PO had the ID, that was time for his rapid, respectful exit. It was none of his business by then to look around for the driver. It's clear to me that the PO instigated the verbal altercation by not giving out his name and badge number. It was really over the top that they arrested him the minute he stepped out of the house, after they had his ID, name, proof of living there. IMO


One other thing-- The police report also says that Lucia is white-- she is not white. Did the officer mix Lucia up with the woman who asked Lucia to call?


Why is it that the police are lying? it is obvious Crowley is a respected officer Why not Gates lying or Lucia forgetting or AFRAID to say she did indeed say 2 black men to Crowley after the death threats she recieved for being completly UNBIASED in her 911 call. Have you Googled her name lately? Search it to see the horrid things said about her.

[Hey Paula]

Brittany Sharpton? lol.

Here's her pic.

http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2009/07/al-sharptons-niece-explores-punishment.html

That's her, FP!

[Lady_Jean_La]

I thought you were the one that posted Gates' interview. I'm not asking you to post any long post about ID. I read the interview that IIRC you posted to prove that Gates said he didn't answer "questions", but, in fact, he said he didn't answer a question, ie singular.

Most of you on this thread seem to buy the idea that the situation was completely one-sided, that there was someone good, and someone bad, with two posters opining that Gates acted like an "animal", one even asking if bar-be-que was served at the meeting.

I think that nothing is quite so cut and dried as some of you seem to think. Police officers are trained to let verbal altercations roll off their backs, and as long as there was no physical contact, they had no reason to prove their point, IMO, arresting him just to show their power.

IMO

I think everyone has moved past that now.

[ortiga]

It said 2 men. So the police do really want to know where the second man is. I've explained why in a previous post you seem to have missed.

And - if you fail somehow to note - there is NO question that two black men broke into that house. That is what happened. That's the truth. They did so because the door and the lock had been damaged by a previous break in. The caller said she was unsure - but the police have to look to it as a break-in until proven otherwise. With such irrational hostility right from the start (by Gates account - he was imagining the cop as a virulent racist looking for an excuse to arrest him right from the start) - they've got reason to wonder if something more is going on.

I thought that article said that Gates went in the back, and the driver applied his shoulder to the front door. IE, just one person pushed on the door, which was stuck. Even the 911 caller was hesitant to say breaking in. So, I would say there was a question that "2 black men broke into that house".

IMO

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

After they had Gates' ID, there was no reason to go after the 2nd man, IMO. It was time for the police to respectfully leave.

Why? if Gates is refusing to cooperate how are they to know another man is not hiding ( perhaps after threatening Gates and is in hiding in the home somewhere). Crowley said his behavior was atypical. How do you know what Crowley may have thought? If this man acting this way because something is wrong? Should I investigate more? On and on.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I thought that article said that Gates went in the back, and the driver applied his shoulder to the front door. IE, just one person pushed on the door, which was stuck. Even the 911 caller was hesitant to say breaking in. So, I would say there was a question that "2 black men broke into that house".

IMO

Again the officers DO NOT hear the 911 call. Dispach told him "possible B&E, 2 males...."

[Patriot]

I understand what he is saying. Crowley was very cool under the glare of the press. They were trying to trip him up and he just maintained his stance and supported it with positive statements. He didn't have the staged, pre-screened questions and yet he was able to maintain his poise and not put his foot in his mouth. I was concerned when I heard that he was doing a press conference but I thought it was perfect.

And all without a teleprompter. Imagine.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.examiner.com/x-264-Celebrity-News-Examiner~y2009m7d30-Obamas-beer-summit-Who-drank-what-photos

Photos

[ortiga]

One other thing-- The police report also says that Lucia is white-- she is not white. Did the officer mix Lucia up with the woman who asked Lucia to call?


Why is it that the police are lying? it is obvious Crowley is a respected officer Why not Gates lying or Lucia forgetting or AFRAID to say she did indeed say 2 black men to Crowley after the death threats she recieved for being completly UNBIASED in her 911 call. Have you Googled her name lately? Search it to see the horrid things said about her.

Well, I'm not interested in looking up what people have said about her. I can get an idea from what people are saying about Gates on this very board.

I read her comments here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32203737/

And, IMO, she was more peeved about what Crowley had said....

"911 caller in Gates case contradicts officer"

"The arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, has said his information on the race of the suspects came during a brief encounter with Whalen outside Gates' house.

Whalen contradicted that Wednesday, saying she made no such description and that the only words he uttered were for her to stay where she was."

[Details]

I thought you were the one that posted Gates' interview. I'm not asking you to post any long post about ID. I read the interview that IIRC you posted to prove that Gates said he didn't answer "questions", but, in fact, he said he didn't answer a question, ie singular.

Most of you on this thread seem to buy the idea that the situation was completely one-sided, that there was someone good, and someone bad, with two posters opining that Gates acted like an "animal", one even asking if bar-be-que was served at the meeting.

I think that nothing is quite so cut and dried as some of you seem to think. Police officers are trained to let verbal altercations roll off their backs, and as long as there was no physical contact, they had no reason to prove their point, IMO, arresting him just to show their power.

IMOIf you were to read the post I referred to - it does say why there are questions reasonable to ask even after getting an ID - namely one question in particular, and that one question that the police report says was asked and not answered.


Yes, I do see a pretty one-sided situation. Gates, from his own account, went into this with the idea the officer was an evil racist, plotting and thinking bad thoughts, trying to find any excuse to arrest Gates. That's from Gates own accout - he has a long fantasy in there of what he imagines the officer is thinking. Crowley, on the other hand, has a long record of GOOD race relations, good enough he's selected as an instructor, good enough that other officers, including black officers, are supporting him emphatically, in the strongest terms.


The other officers say the arrest was proper. And none of their stories looks remotely like what Gates says happened. Gates story doesn't match what the neighbor describes (she could hear Gates screaming - while he claims he could not). When you make a disturbance outside, it is indeed possible, even likely to be arrested. According to the cops, he had two warnings, and just would not go back inside his house or quiet down. That's all he had to do. They were done - he prolonged it. He chose this.



I'm good at seeing multiple sides - I do in most cases. And on this - I see very little of an other side. I understand a bit - Gates is so involved in race relations, he's going to have heard every negative story involving the police, he's jet-lagged - he's expecting to see a racist, so he sees a racist. That doesn't make it right nor OK. There is real racial profiling - abusing that real tragedy to save yourself from the hassle of showing your ID to an officer investigating a real report; or apologizing for your own bad behavior; is despicable to me. Profiling is real, racism is real. That doesn't make every encounter between a white cop and a minority racist. And to assume a white cop is racist just due to his color, and his failure to bow and scrape before a Harvard professor (did you read what he thinks the cops should say to him, while investigating a robbery?) - that's racism. That continues racism, encourages the racists, makes everything worse.

[Barbara2]

I think it is standard procedure to give out badge numbers and names.

It is very possible that the information was given but that Gates didn't hear it because he was still yelling as the officer was responding.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU


And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now... :rolleyes:

[ortiga]

Why? if Gates is refusing to cooperate how are they to know another man is not hiding ( perhaps after threatening Gates and is in hiding in the home somewhere). Crowley said his behavior was atypical. How do you know what Crowley may have thought? If this man acting this way because something is wrong? Should I investigate more? On and on.

Like I said, after the PO had the ID of Gates (obviously he cooperated), it was time for the police to go out the door, and not make a heated situation worse. IMO

[Details]

I think it is standard procedure to give out badge numbers and names.And reportedly, he did so. Twice - or attempted to do so anyway. Gates kept asking over and over again, talked over him when he was answering. How many times is enough?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

[flareon]

As do I. I wish he had never gone to the beerfest to begin with, but hats off to Officer Crowley for not caving. (Not that I expected anything less from the info we've gotten about him already).

:thumbup:

I know. I'm glad he didn't either and you have to give credit to his superiors for backing him up and his fellow officers for their support.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Well, I'm not interested in looking up what people have said about her. I can get an idea from what people are saying about Gates on this very board.

I read her comments here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32203737/

And, IMO, she was more peeved about what Crowley had said....

"911 caller in Gates case contradicts officer"

"The arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, has said his information on the race of the suspects came during a brief encounter with Whalen outside Gates' house.

Whalen contradicted that Wednesday, saying she made no such description and that the only words he uttered were for her to stay where she was."

Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU


And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now...

Again Crowley says Lucia is white-- she is not. Was he mistaken OR did he speak to the woman with Lucia OR can Lucia NOT say what she said because of threats?



You seem to be very unconcerned about Ms Lucia Wahlen, an innocent bystander who tried to help an older woman and is now threatened with action and death for doing so.

[flareon]

Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU


And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now... :rolleyes:

God, that is really disgusting.

I was glad that Lucia said that she would still make the call, but it does make you wonder how many crimes will go unreported because of this mindset.

[Hey Paula]

And all without a teleprompter. Imagine.

This beer summit was to have been a "teachable moment". What have you learned Pat?

I learned that although BO and Gates were quick to attack and turn a non-racial issue into a national racial issue, they now refuse to apologize to those they attacked, trashed and offended.

This was nothing but a brewhaha [sic], photo-op and distraction from BO's plummeting approval rating.

IMO

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Like I said, after the PO had the ID of Gates (obviously he cooperated), it was time for the police to go out the door, and not make a heated situation worse. IMO

And if there had been another man there holding Gates against his will-- the police department would have been accused of treating a black man differently for not looking for the “second man” if anything had happened to Gates and they left and he was hiding for a home invasion.

[Patriot]

Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU


And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now... :rolleyes:


The apple certainly doesn't fall far, does it? Gaawsh, they disgust me.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Actually portuguese people are white, the same as people from France, Italy, Spain and Germany.

Lucia Wahlen looks anything but white-- she is obviously Hispanic. The officer would not have know she was portuguese unless she told him so.

[Details]

I thought that article said that Gates went in the back, and the driver applied his shoulder to the front door. IE, just one person pushed on the door, which was stuck. Even the 911 caller was hesitant to say breaking in. So, I would say there was a question that "2 black men broke into that house".

IMOWow - you've really got to twist to see it that way.

If 5 men break into a bank together, and take the money, and leave - do we say 2 men robbed the bank, if the rest didn't take part in jimmying the doors or carrying the money? Nope. 5 men.

Two men were at the door, broke through it, went in. Two men broke in. Just because they didn't have any skills in synchronized door busting, does not mean only one man broke in. The door was broken, they both went in. Were this not Gates's house, if it were a real break-in, both would be charged with B&E.


Would you really say that? You see 2 guys on your neighbor's porch. One of them slams their shoulder to the door to open it, both go in. You really are going to call and report one person broke in? Two people broke in.

[ortiga]

If you were to read the post I referred to - it does say why there are questions reasonable to ask even after getting an ID - namely one question in particular, and that one question that the police report says was asked and not answered.


Yes, I do see a pretty one-sided situation. Gates, from his own account, went into this with the idea the officer was an evil racist, plotting and thinking bad thoughts, trying to find any excuse to arrest Gates. That's from Gates own accout - he has a long fantasy in there of what he imagines the officer is thinking. Crowley, on the other hand, has a long record of GOOD race relations, good enough he's selected as an instructor, good enough that other officers, including black officers, are supporting him emphatically, in the strongest terms.


The other officers say the arrest was proper. And none of their stories looks remotely like what Gates says happened. Gates story doesn't match what the neighbor describes (she could hear Gates screaming - while he claims he could not). When you make a disturbance outside, it is indeed possible, even likely to be arrested. According to the cops, he had two warnings, and just would not go back inside his house or quiet down. That's all he had to do. They were done - he prolonged it. He chose this.



I'm good at seeing multiple sides - I do in most cases. And on this - I see very little of an other side. I understand a bit - Gates is so involved in race relations, he's going to have heard every negative story involving the police, he's jet-lagged - he's expecting to see a racist, so he sees a racist. That doesn't make it right nor OK. There is real racial profiling - abusing that real tragedy to save yourself from the hassle of showing your ID to an officer investigating a real report; or apologizing for your own bad behavior; is despicable to me. Profiling is real, racism is real. That doesn't make every encounter between a white cop and a minority racist. And to assume a white cop is racist just due to his color, and his failure to bow and scrape before a Harvard professor (did you read what he thinks the cops should say to him, while investigating a robbery?) - that's racism. That continues racism, encourages the racists, makes everything worse.

I don't think either side is telling the whole truth of what they said, what their body language was, etc. In fact, I would like to have seen the body language, tone of voice, etc, of Crowley right at the first, when he asked or was it commanded, Gates to step out of the house.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, just that I probably have spent so much time in minority neighborhoods with minority neighbors that certain attitudes seem different to me that they might to you.

We probably agree on other threads, other subjects, so I don't want to argue with you.

Actually throughout this conversation I've been wondering if anyone else saw the episode of "Rescue Me" when all the guys in Gavin's FDNY firehouse went to the "racial attitudes" course. lol. Look it up sometime, I was ROTF.

[Details]

Well, I'm not interested in looking up what people have said about her. I can get an idea from what people are saying about Gates on this very board.

I read her comments here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32203737/

And, IMO, she was more peeved about what Crowley had said....

"911 caller in Gates case contradicts officer"

"The arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, has said his information on the race of the suspects came during a brief encounter with Whalen outside Gates' house.

Whalen contradicted that Wednesday, saying she made no such description and that the only words he uttered were for her to stay where she was."... Uh, yeah - because she's getting death threats for the possibility that she actually dared to ACCURATELY identify the people she saw breaking in. So, yeah, she's very concerned about what is reported that she said, because she's getting DEATH THREATS.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

God, that is really disgusting.

I was glad that Lucia said that she would still make the call, but it does make you wonder how many crimes will go unreported because of this mindset.


I was appalled, far past appalled. I can't understand it at all. And people wonder why this incident and the ensuing melee such as the above may hurt race relations. If nothing else I know I will think twice before calling 911.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

The apple certainly doesn't fall far, does it? Gaawsh, they disgust me.

ITA!!! Totally disgusting!

[Lady_Jean_La]

From the beginning this incident has been discussed as a racial incident. I'm beginning to think it is more of a gender incident.

Would a call have been made if two women were seen shoving on a door? What if a woman police officer had been first to arrive? Would Dr. Gates have given a woman such a hard time?

No, I think it was a gender thing. imo

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Why do you say she looks Hispanic? She is not. She has dark hair and dark eyes from what I could see but that would not make her Hispanic. Portuguese people are not Hispanic.

My bad-- I was typing too fast--replying to too many posts at once-- I was trying to say she looks hispanic--not white. The officer would not have known she was Portuguese unless she told him.

[Details]

I don't think either side is telling the whole truth of what they said, what their body language was, etc. In fact, I would like to have seen the body language, tone of voice, etc, of Crowley right at the first, when he asked or was it commanded, Gates to step out of the house.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, just that I probably have spent so much time in minority neighborhoods with minority neighbors that certain attitudes seem different to me that they might to you.

We probably agree on other threads, other subjects, so I don't want to argue with you.

Actually throughout this conversation I've been wondering if anyone else saw the episode of "Rescue Me" when all the guys in Gavin's FDNY firehouse went to the "racial attitudes" course. lol. Look it up sometime, I was ROTF.I'd expect him to be commanding - he's responding to a report of a break-in. The house looks broken into - because it was - twice. It was broken into just a little while before. So - no matter how harmless Gates may look - police know better than to judge by that - Crowley has to first assume this is a robber - maybe the lookout.

I've had reason to know about discrimination - but if I reacted to people as if they were going to discriminate against me, before they did, based on what I do know of it - I'd have a much more miserable life - and I would be purely, 100% in the wrong. To treat someone who is not acting in a racist manner, as a racist - is not only racism, but it is a way to spread racism, if white people, white cops, are basically told that it doesn't matter what they'll do - they'll be treated as less than human by members of a particular race. That type of treatment CREATES racists. It makes everything worse, it turns people with the best of intentions sour.


I've watched Rescue Me - a little - my husband likes the show. Me - not so much. But I don't recall that episode. To tell the truth, sometimes the racism and sexism, and other rather disgusting attitudes on the show hit way too close to home, are a bit too real for me to find funny.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU


And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now... :rolleyes:

Also explains why she needs a lawyer.

[Details]

I was appalled, far past appalled. I can't understand it at all. And people wonder why this incident and the ensuing melee such as the above may hurt race relations. If nothing else I know I will think twice before calling 911.I won't - and I won't be intimidated into not giving an accurate description of who I see - but I'm stubborn that way.

[flareon]

From the beginning this incident has been discussed as a racial incident. I'm beginning to think it is more of a gender incident.

Would a call have been made if two women were seen shoving on a door? What if a woman police officer had been first to arrive? Would Dr. Gates have given a woman such a hard time?

No, I think it was a gender thing. imo

I don't know. I still think it would have been reported. There has been break-ins by females in my state, although often they are accompanied by a male. We had reports in my state of 2 females entering homes while the occupant was out in their backyard gardening.

As far as Gates, if it had been a black female officer it may have made a difference but who really knows. Usually people like Gates, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. who make their living flaming race issue have a predisposition to view everything in a bad light.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

... Uh, yeah - because she's getting death threats for the possibility that she actually dared to ACCURATELY identify the people she saw breaking in. So, yeah, she's very concerned about what is reported that she said, because she's getting DEATH THREATS.

Where is everyone who should be supporting this poor woman? Where is the outrage over the death threats and the call for "Repercussions" and "punishment" because she called 911. Where is the outrage????

[Lady_Jean_La]

I know. I'm glad he didn't either and you have to give credit to his superiors for backing him up and his fellow officers for their support.

I was torn but now I am glad he went. He is a great representative to have out there speaking. imo

[ortiga]

Where is everyone who should be supporting this poor woman? Where is the outrage over the death threats and the call for "Repercussions" and "punishment" because she called 911. Where is the outrage????

She appeared to be nearly outraged because she says that the police said that she said something she didn't say. At least that's what I got from that link I posted, and the interviews I saw. She got a lot of press, and I think most people understood that she did not say there were black guys with backpacks, or black guys at all.

The internet lets wing nuts of all parts of the spectrum to make waves.

IMO

[Barbara2]

He READ the speech well. That's all it was, a READING.

mo

The first part, yes. Then he answered questions from the reporters.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I won't - and I won't be intimidated into not giving an accurate description of who I see - but I'm stubborn that way.

You're right --- I know I am wrong-- I will think twice though. I just can't understand how people can speak out as to what they think is a wrong against Gates ( who created this mess IMO with his uncooperative self) but ignore what is happening to this woman. Insanity IMO.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

She appeared to be nearly outraged because she says that the police said that she said something she didn't say. At least that's what I got from that link I posted, and the interviews I saw. She got a lot of press, and I think most people understood that she did not say there were black guys with backpacks, or black guys at all.

The internet lets wing nuts of all parts of the spectrum to make waves.

IMO

Sorry I have not seen this "outrage" you speak of from Lucia.

Not to mention some of these interviews calling for her to be punished were not just on the internet-- they were on public radio and television.


Al Sharpton's Niece Explores Punishment For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.wikio.com/video/1449903

Brittany Sharpton Pushes 'Repercussions' For Woman Who Called Cambridge Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMxdc3ePDU

Add death threats phoned to her and her mother.....

Again:

And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now...

[Hey Paula]

From the beginning this incident has been discussed as a racial incident. I'm beginning to think it is more of a gender incident.

Would a call have been made if two women were seen shoving on a door? What if a woman police officer had been first to arrive? Would Dr. Gates have given a woman such a hard time?

No, I think it was a gender thing. imo

I think Gates would have reacted the same way if a white female police officer had been the first to arrive. Sadly, more often than not, it seems that blacks turn everything into a racial issue.

We now have more and more cases of reverse discrimination because we have become a PC nation for fear of being unjustly attacked as Sgt Lashley and Ms Whalen were. Perhaps this is the goal of some, i.e., to silence others.

IMO

[Lady_Jean_La]

Why do you say she looks Hispanic? She is not. She has dark hair and dark eyes from what I could see but that would not make her Hispanic. Portuguese people are not Hispanic.I disagree. Portuguese are hispanic. imo

[flareon]

You're right --- I know I am wrong-- I will think twice though. I just can't understand how people can speak out as to what they think is a wrong against Gates ( who created this mess IMO with his uncooperative self) but ignore what is happening to this woman. Insanity IMO.

There has always been a hesitancy to report crimes due to fear. That is why many people will report but refuse to give their name. Sometimes it is also because they don't want to take the time to get involved.

But you're right. When someone see the reactions of some people on the internet it does make you wonder what effect it will have on future witnesses. This attitude is already prevalent in the inner cities which is one reason criminals are emboldened.

[Lady_Jean_La]

I don't know. I still think it would have been reported. There has been break-ins by females in my state, although often they are accompanied by a male. We had reports in my state of 2 females entering homes while the occupant was out in their backyard gardening.

As far as Gates, if it had been a black female officer it may have made a difference but who really knows. Usually people like Gates, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. who make their living flaming race issue have a predisposition to view everything in a bad light.

You are probably right. Just seems so male with the beer and all.

[ortiga]

I disagree. Portuguese are hispanic. imo

Not in the traditional sense, they aren't, since their first language is Portuguese, not Spanish.

IMO

[Details]

I think Gates would have reacted the same way if a white female police officer had been the first to arrive. Sadly, more often than not, it seems that blacks turn everything into a racial issue.

We now have more and more cases of reverse discrimination because we have become a PC nation for fear of being unjustly attacked as Sgt Lashley and Ms Whalen were. Perhaps this is the goal of some, i.e., to silence others.

IMOIf you use that filter - that's what you see. If you use Gates filter, you see all the real racist incidents - and we all know those do exist - and think whites turn everything into a racist issue.

Look at the reality, look at the statistics. It's getting better and better all the time, it really is - on both sides. Yes, there are false accusations of race, and those using reverse racism - and it's a measure of how far we've come on race that those can even succeed. And there are real racial crimes, racist bias, racial profiling - but all of it is decreasing all the time. The pendulum swings at times - but the magnitude keeps going down.

[ortiga]

snipped

Again:

And some wonder why Lucia may not say she did say 2 black men now...

I heard the 911 tape, she didn't say 2 black men at all, not even 1 black man.

Why do you keep on reporting that type of threat to the 911 caller? Best not to propagate it. Sounds like there was a discrepancy between what she actually said, and how it ended up later in the reports. Obviously that's why she came forward.

IMO

[flareon]

You are probably right. Just seems so male with the beer and all.

Well, it seems like Gates is used to using the race victim tag. He wouldn't have been able to use that with black officers unless he tried to pass it off as institutional racism.

[Details]

A fascinating statement from Gates too:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/30/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5199545.shtml?tag=stack
....It is incumbent upon Sergeant Crowley and me to utilize the great opportunity that fate has given us to foster greater sympathy among the American public for the daily perils of policing on the one hand, and for the genuine fears of racial profiling on the other hand.
...Let me say that I thank God that live in a country in which police officers put their lives at risk to protect us every day, and, more than ever, I’ve come to understand and appreciate their daily sacrifices on our behalf.Sounds like he got something of the message right. We'll see what he does with it.

[Details]

I heard the 911 tape, she didn't say 2 black men at all, not even 1 black man.

Why do you keep on reporting that type of threat to the 911 caller? Best not to propagate it. Sounds like there was a discrepancy between what she actually said, and how it ended up later in the reports. Obviously that's why she came forward.

IMOBecause it's a horrifying travesty that a person can be threatened with death for accurately reporting a potential crime in progress? Not propagate it? It's an OUTRAGE! She's being threatened with death, for doing nothing wrong - even the first, false reports that she identified them as black men in her 911 call were NOTHING to generate any type of recrimination, let alone threats! How can you not be outraged?

What she may or may not have said to officers later - and I'm not able to know who is lying there - if anyone (they are all working from human memory - it may just be a few false memories or such) - there was no suggestion nor hint she lied, even had she said 2 black men - that IS the truth. Two black men broke into that house. They did it, Gates says they did it, they had to do it because of another break-in, and that alone shows how much that phone call was appropriate. It's insane, it's horrific, to think that someone honestly trying to protect their neighbor's house can get death threats over it, let alone accusations of racism, threats of repercussions - for an ACCURATE report.

[Lady_Jean_La]

You would be technically wrong. They are considered Europeans.Legally.

:thumbsup:

[Barbara2]

A fascinating statement from Gates too:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/30/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5199545.shtml?tag=stack
Sounds like he got something of the message right. We'll see what he does with it.

That was a great statement. I think both have come away better for the experience while we on these boards will be fighting for days? weeks? Hopefully some greater good will come from the experience of these two gentlemen.

[Details]

You would be technically wrong. They are considered Europeans. Technicalities are one thing - but since it's unlikely that any officer asked to see her genealogy, or what her heritage was, or tried multiple languages out on her - they'd be going by skin tone and hair color and features - and she looks Hispanic.

I could see going with white, because it's hard to tell if it's a suntan, or a natural skin color sometimes - but she looks Hispanic to me. And that's what the report would have - some general description of the person being spoken to - not aiming for technical accuracy.

[ortiga]

Because it's a horrifying travesty that a person can be threatened with death for accurately reporting a potential crime in progress? Not propagate it? It's an OUTRAGE! She's being threatened with death, for doing nothing wrong - even the first, false reports that she identified them as black men in her 911 call were NOTHING to generate any type of recrimination, let alone threats! How can you not be outraged?

What she may or may not have said to officers later - and I'm not able to know who is lying there - if anyone (they are all working from human memory - it may just be a few false memories or such) - there was no suggestion nor hint she lied, even had she said 2 black men - that IS the truth. Two black men broke into that house. They did it, Gates says they did it, they had to do it because of another break-in, and that alone shows how much that phone call was appropriate. It's insane, it's horrific, to think that someone honestly trying to protect their neighbor's house can get death threats over it, let alone accusations of racism, threats of repercussions - for an ACCURATE report.

Actually only one black man broke in. By shoving the door which was stuck. The other black man entered by the back door with a key.

I say it's best not to propagate that horrible stuff, (about threats to the 911 caller) for the same reason I don't start threads about all the horrible racist stuff that Limbaugh and Beck are saying about Obama, and what people like OReilly said about the doctor that was killed in a church which, IMO helped inflame that killer to violence. Mainly because it just inflames the nutcases into thinking they have support for bombing clinics and shooting to death guards at museums. I remember that one investigator estimated that there are 10,000 hate sites on the internet, that was just after that doctor was assasinated in church.

[Details]

You should direct your outrage at Officer Crowley considering he is the one that seemed to come up with the idea that it was two black men. I wonder why he would do that? Police reports are to be accurate as many times if a case goes to court a officer may have review his report for facts. Seems Officer Crowley added a few.It was two black men. Gates says so. You disbelieve him too? The 911 caller said 2 men. Gates says 2 men. That's what it was.


That's the best you can do? Death threats for an accurate report are OK? To heck with Whalen, her trouble and terror, because - whatever.

[Barbara2]

You should direct your outrage at Officer Crowley considering he is the one that seemed to come up with the idea that it was two black men. I wonder why he would do that? Police reports are to be accurate as many times if a case goes to court a officer may have review his report for facts. Seems Officer Crowley added a few.

But it WAS two black men. I can't understand why this is such a big deal.

[Details]

Actually only one black man broke in. By shoving the door which was stuck. The other black man entered by the back door with a key.

I say it's best not to propagate that horrible stuff, (about threats to the 911 caller) for the same reason I don't start threads about all the horrible racist stuff that Limbaugh and Beck are saying about Obama, and what people like OReilly said about the doctor that was killed in a church which, IMO helped inflame that killer to violence. Mainly because it just inflames the nutcases into thinking they have support for bombing clinics and shooting to death guards at museums. I remember that one investigator estimated that there are 10,000 hate sites on the internet, that was just after that doctor was assasinated in church.I can't disagree more - O'Reilly, Limbaugh - yes, we should focus on that garbage they say, all threats, especially death threats, all incitement to violence. If anything, it can let these nutjobs who go kill know that indeed not everyone does agree. You read about the guy who killed the doctor in church? He seems surprised he was even brought up on charges, that he's being treated as a criminal. He heard the hate, never heard enough of people countering the hate, and thought that everyone was on his side. What might change if he knew that most find him a loathsome murderer?

[Lady_Jean_La]

Actually only one black man broke in. By shoving the door which was stuck. The other black man entered by the back door with a key.

I say it's best not to propagate that horrible stuff, (about threats to the 911 caller) for the same reason I don't start threads about all the horrible racist stuff that Limbaugh and Beck are saying about Obama, and what people like OReilly said about the doctor that was killed in a church which, IMO helped inflame that killer to violence. Mainly because it just inflames the nutcases into thinking they have support for bombing clinics and shooting to death guards at museums. I remember that one investigator estimated that there are 10,000 hate sites on the internet, that was just after that doctor was assasinated in church.

The porch is partly obscured and there are bushes. The location of the observer and how much attention she gave would bear on what she observed. She probably did not see one man go to the back and did not see the car. She apparently did not see one drive away. imo

[ortiga]

The porch is partly obscured and there are bushes. The location of the observer and how much attention she gave would bear on what she observed. She probably did not see one man go to the back and did not see the car. She apparently did not see one drive away. imo

According to what I heard on the 911 tape, she was extremely judicious and conservative about not jumping to conclusions, no racial profiling, she even said she didn't know if they were breaking in, or if they lived there. IIRC she even mentioned suitcases. And she said maybe one was Hispanic, but only after being asked by the operator.

I think she is being pilloried because somehow her words were twisted to say that she saw 2 black men with backpacks breaking in. So who twisted the words? From what I can see from the news reports it was the police. Maybe not, but that's what it looks like to me.

IMO

[Lady_Jean_La]

According to what I heard on the 911 tape, she was extremely judicious and conservative about not jumping to conclusions, no racial profiling, she even said she didn't know if they were breaking in, or if they lived there. IIRC she even mentioned suitcases. And she said maybe one was Hispanic, but only after being asked by the operator.

I think she is being pilloried because somehow her words were twisted to say that she saw 2 black men with backpacks breaking in. So who twisted the words? From what I can see from the news reports it was the police. Maybe not, but that's what it looks like to me.

IMO

Well, it has been investigated, charges dismissed, case closed. Time to move on. imo

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I heard the 911 tape, she didn't say 2 black men at all, not even 1 black man.

Why do you keep on reporting that type of threat to the 911 caller? Best not to propagate it. Sounds like there was a discrepancy between what she actually said, and how it ended up later in the reports. Obviously that's why she came forward.

IMO

Ortiga




There is the 911 call then there is the fact she spoke to the police officer on scene. TWO separate and distinct things. When she says she did not say two black men it was to Officer Crowley at the scene not on the 911 call. Because of those threats I wonder if that is why she say she did not say what was in Crowley police report not the 911 call.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Because it's a horrifying travesty that a person can be threatened with death for accurately reporting a potential crime in progress? Not propagate it? It's an OUTRAGE! She's being threatened with death, for doing nothing wrong - even the first, false reports that she identified them as black men in her 911 call were NOTHING to generate any type of recrimination, let alone threats! How can you not be outraged?

What she may or may not have said to officers later - and I'm not able to know who is lying there - if anyone (they are all working from human memory - it may just be a few false memories or such) - there was no suggestion nor hint she lied, even had she said 2 black men - that IS the truth. Two black men broke into that house. They did it, Gates says they did it, they had to do it because of another break-in, and that alone shows how much that phone call was appropriate. It's insane, it's horrific, to think that someone honestly trying to protect their neighbor's house can get death threats over it, let alone accusations of racism, threats of repercussions - for an ACCURATE report.

Bears repeating!! I do not understand why this seems to be such an issue!! :cursing:

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

You should direct your outrage at Officer Crowley considering he is the one that seemed to come up with the idea that it was two black men. I wonder why he would do that? Police reports are to be accurate as many times if a case goes to court a officer may have review his report for facts. Seems Officer Crowley added a few.


For those who believe such-- please explain what benefit supposedly adding “2 black men” to the statement added? How did it help his arrest or side of the matter? Who cares if it reads one Hispanic male and one unknown race male? How did or would that have changed the outcome of any of this? How did that benefit Crowley?

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

According to what I heard on the 911 tape, she was extremely judicious and conservative about not jumping to conclusions, no racial profiling, she even said she didn't know if they were breaking in, or if they lived there. IIRC she even mentioned suitcases. And she said maybe one was Hispanic, but only after being asked by the operator.

I think she is being pilloried because somehow her words were twisted to say that she saw 2 black men with backpacks breaking in. So who twisted the words? From what I can see from the news reports it was the police. Maybe not, but that's what it looks like to me.

IMO

Ah, NO, that is not why she is being "pilloried" threatened and liabled. It is because she did not stop the phone call and call 911 back when she SHOULD have realized that a "black" man could be her neighbor.

Listen to the radio broadcast and youtube I linked to read some articles. NOT to mention 2 black men did break in-- WHO CARES if she had said black white or purple to ACCURATELY describe what she thought she might be witnessing?

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lbPTJo25ZM&feature=player_embedded

Sgt. Crowley talks

[LisaM22]

According to what I heard on the 911 tape, she was extremely judicious and conservative about not jumping to conclusions, no racial profiling, she even said she didn't know if they were breaking in, or if they lived there. IIRC she even mentioned suitcases. And she said maybe one was Hispanic, but only after being asked by the operator.

I think she is being pilloried because somehow her words were twisted to say that she saw 2 black men with backpacks breaking in. So who twisted the words? From what I can see from the news reports it was the police. Maybe not, but that's what it looks like to me.

IMO

I agree, I think racists (black and white) will try to make this more then it is, what it is, and that was a innocent man being arrested in his own home after a office had been on the scene only a few minutes and after confirming via id that it WAS indeed the man's home, it was a stupid mistake, the office should of apologized up front and the whole thing goes away as being nothing more then a misunderstanding, arresting the man was NOT the correct thing to do in this situation

as for the 911 caller, she was very exact as to what she saw and what she did not, she stated she did not know for sure what she saw, I heard no racism in that call at all, she made it very clear she was not even sure it was a break in on the 911 call, not sure what she told the officer at the scene

[Lady_Jean_La]

I think that's incorrect.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_Portuguese_people_Hispanic

I think it is debateable. :shrug:

The word Hispanic was coined by the Romans in 204 B.C. to identify the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, today’s Spain and Portugal.

http://www.gleaneronline.org/100/11/27117.html

[LisaM22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lbPTJo25ZM&feature=player_embedded

Sgt. Crowley talks

thanks for the link, I think he handled that very well

[LisaM22]

I found Henry gates' official statement about the incident as reported by his lawyer (and Obama's friend) Charles Ogletree.

Sgt Crowley never asked Gates to step outside. He followed him outside.

And it wasn't the driver who went in through the back door, it was gates.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/07/harvards-henry-gates-a-victim-of-racial-profiling.html

read the article again

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/07/harvards-henry-gates-a-victim-of-racial-profiling.html

"When Professor Gates opened the door, the officer immediately asked him to step outside"

also, shows that the officer was uncooperative when gates questions about his name and his badge number multiple times, this probably racketed up the tension as well

"Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates’s request for this information"

[Lady_Jean_La]

General info about Dr. Gates

https://www.directory.harvard.edu/phonebook/getDetails.do?key=GATES30ae9883ecaca52405bc1dbde14 57ee3

Harvard building directory

http://www.map.harvard.edu/infomap_search.cfm?tx0=ware&mapname=camb_allston

Harvard map

http://www.map.harvard.edu/level3.cfm?mapname=camb_allston&tile=F7&quadrant=D&series=N

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I found Henry gates' official statement about the incident as reported by his lawyer (and Obama's friend) Charles Ogletree.

Sgt Crowley never asked Gates to step outside. He followed him outside.

And it wasn't the driver who went in through the back door, it was gates.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/07/harvards-henry-gates-a-victim-of-racial-profiling.html

Great Find!!

Just in case anyone questions someone changing it, or adding to it-- here is the EXACT SAME STATEMENT in Henry Louis Gate's very own magazine ( which he is the EDITOR of) 'The Root'.

http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

[LisaM22]

one thing this case does show, is when a police officer asks you to step outside, do not do it, invite them in, cause had Gates never stepped out the door, the cop could not have arrested him

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

QUOTE SNIPPED

Actually only one black man broke in. By shoving the door which was stuck. The other black man entered by the back door with a key.



SNIPPED


No you are wrong-- another statement from Gates in his magazine:


Professor Gates attempted to enter his front door, but the door was damaged. Professor Gates then entered his rear door with his key, turned off his alarm, and again attempted to open the front door. With the help of his driver they were able to force the front door open, and then the driver carried Professor Gates’ luggage into his home.

http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

[Lady_Jean_La]

Gates, Crowley shared some beers, now plan lunch

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/07/gates-crowley-shared-some-beers-now-plan-lunch

Gates concurred, saying: "We hit it off right from the beginning. When he's not arresting you, Sgt. Crowley is a really likable guy."

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

one thing this case does show, is when a police officer asks you to step outside, do not do it, invite them in, cause had Gates never stepped out the door, the cop could not have arrested him

LOL So you advocate not listinging to the police? THERE is no law in America which says you have to be arrested outside!

[LisaM22]

LOL So you advocate not listinging to the police? THERE is no law in America which says you have to be arrested outside!

I advocate standing up for your rights, and invite the officer in, rather then step outside, this was his home, he had that right, the cops can't make you do many things, take off your cloths for instance, would you do that if you were asked? I would refuse, there are many reasons you could be arrested outside that do not apply inside, had Gates not stepped outside on his own porch, he would never of been arrested that night

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I advocate standing up for your rights, and invite the officer in, rather then step outside, this was his home, he had that right, the cops can't make you do many things, take off your cloths for instance, would you do that if you were asked? I would refuse

It makes no difference --the cop could arrest him or you in his ( your) house too if he believed he/you comitted a crime, or was about to.

Officer Crowley did NOT ask Gates to do anything illegal. Why are you trying to make it sound as if he asked him to do something immoral or against the law?

[LisaM22]

I'm talking about at the end of the incident when gates was arrested. He followed Sgt Crowley out there. :rolleyes:

And Gates didn't step outside at the beginning when he was asked to.

imo

no one ever said he was that I am aware of, that was a mistake Gates made all by himself latter, had he not stepped out the door onto his pourch he never would of been arrested

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Can anyone find any information on the attempted break-in that Gates reported two week before?

imo

--One of his neighbors spoke of the neighborhood robberies and Gates home being robbed recently. It was either a neighbor or a witness. I believe Gates spoke of it too. My computer is being a pain right now and it doing slow searches. Gerrrr

[LisaM22]

It makes no difference --the cop could arrest him or you in his ( your) house too if he believed he/you comitted a crime, or was about to.

Officer Crowley did NOT ask Gates to do anything illegal. Why are you trying to make it sound as if he asked him to do something immoral or against the law?

Gates would not of been arrested this nite had he not stepped outside his house - sure you can be arrested in your house too, but you can also be arrested outside your house for some things you could not be arrested inside your house for

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

no one ever said he was that I am aware of, that was a mistake Gates made all by himself latter, had he not stepped out the door onto his pourch he never would of been arrested

So you are intimating that the only reason Gates was arrested is because he stepped onto his porch?

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

Gates would not of been arrest this nite had he not stepped outside his house - sure you can be arrested in your house too, but you can also be arrested outside your house for some things you could not be arrested inside your house for

Would you care to post this things and differences you can and can not be arrested for inside and outside of your home. Link?

[LisaM22]

So you are intimating that the only reason Gates was arrested is because he stepped onto his porch?

I am saying had he not steeped out onto his porch he would not of been arrested that nite

[LisaM22]

Would you care to post this things and differences you can and can not be arrested for inside and outside of your home. Link?

public intoxication would be a good example.... I do not think you need a link for that ;)

[LisaM22]

the police reports

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

interesting, the cop that showed up first was in a unmarked car, no wonder gates asked him for his name and badge ID, anyone can wear a police uniform

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

public intoxication would be a good example.... I do not think you need a link for that ;)


You can be arrested for Public Intoxication in your home. If the "crime" occured outside of your home and the officer chased and or found you there hiding from him after creating the disturbance or what-have-you outside.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

the police reports

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

interesting, the cop that showed up first was in a unmarked car, no wonder gates asked him for his name and badge ID, anyone can wear a police uniform

Gates never said a thing about the officers car. He said he was standing in his Kitchen when he noticed the policeman at the door, he went to the door and let him in after a few words between the two.

[LisaM22]

You can be arrested for Public Intoxication in your home. If the "crime" occured outside of your home and the officer chased and or found you there hiding from him after creating the disturbance or what-have-you outside.

yes, that is true, but Gates had committed no crime outside his home prior to this and would not of been arrested at all had he not stepped outside his home during the incident

[LisaM22]

I believe Gates was being a jerk, I have no doubt about that in my mind, I think it is sad he had to bring race into this, I am sure in his mind he believed it, but still... I just do not think he should of been arrested that night, I think they should of tried to calm him down a bit more and had he not stopped then arrested him, how many times on cops you see the old irate lady go on and on and on and not get arrested, yet in this case in less then 5 minutes gates was in cuffs

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I'd love to see the reports on that incident. :biggrin:

Me too!!!


I saw this and thought it needed to be here and how police are trained.

The officer, like all police officers, has been extensively trained that he must establish and maintain control in every situation for safety reasons. Gates was trying to take control away from the officer; he wanted to officer to kowtow to him.

According to the officer’s training, anyone who tries to take control away from the officer presents a threat, possibly a deadly one. Even if the officer might have realized, in quiet contemplation, that Gates had a 1st Amendment right to shout, at the moment of confrontation the officer was faced with a man who was trying to strip the officer of the authority he had been trained to maintain even at the price of violence.

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

I believe Gates was being a jerk, I have no doubt about that in my mind, I think it is sad he had to bring race into this, I am sure in his mind he believed it, but still... I just do not think he should of been arrested that night, I think they should of tried to calm him down a bit more and had he not stopped then arrested him, how many times on cops you see the old irate lady go on and on and on and not get arrested, yet in this case in less then 5 minutes gates was in cuffs



I can appreciate your opinion, I wonder though how long do you believe would have been fair? How long do you think? I mean Gates has to bear responsibility for how he decided to act that afternoon.

He can try to blame his behavior on the police but when it comes down to it-- we are all responsible for our own actions. He can say he believed this was about race—but isn’t he doing EXACLY what he accused the officer of? He racially profiled the police officer and assumed that because he was a white cop, he was a racist.

[Hey Paula]

OK all you sleuths. I found the harvard University Police dept public log.

On July 16th I see the addtress but there is no description of the incident that I can see.

I also went back to June 30th and I don't see a call to gates home about an attempted break in.

I'm also tired. lol. Anyone want to double check me? If not today then another time.

Here is the link to the log:

http://www.hupd.harvard.edu/public_log.php

Could the call have been taken by the Cambridge PD just as this one was by Sgt Crowley?

[LisaM22]

I can appreciate your opinion, I wonder though how long do you believe would have been fair? How long do you think? I mean Gates has to bear responsibility for how he decided to act that afternoon.

He can try to blame his behavior on the police but when it comes down to it-- we are all responsible for our own actions. He can say he believed this was about race—but isn’t he doing EXACLY what he accused the officer of? He racially profiled the police officer and assumed that because he was a white cop, he was a racist.

I don't know an exact time, a few minutes maybe, I do not know of any other case where a man in his own home that had committed no crime was arrested so soon after police arrived for disorderly conduct

I have also seen black people go off on the racists rant for no reason before, not a pretty site, so i can understand how it was making the officer feel uncomfortable - it's a tough call and I in no way envy the officers position, he was put in a tough spot, maybe the officer truly felt there was nothing he could say or do at that point and just wanted to arrest the man, knowing the charges would probably not stick, but could technically be made, but it did end the issue at hand - I think he could of let the black officer try and calm him down, based on the situation, maybe that would of worked, maybe not

[LisaM22]

Hey Paula! Good to "see" you.

Yes. But Cambridge PD called HUPD on July 16th. Also, the house is owned by Harvard.

I don't understand why someone whose house was broken into would go away two weeks later without having the door repaired. Burglars could easily have gotten in there just like Gates did.

Hinky.

imo

from what I understand, he used his key to unlock the door, but the door was jammed

[LisaM22]

one thing some blacks and whites need to learn is personalities from race to race may conflict, just like they do within the same race, and one should not jump to conclusions just based on race - it could just as easily be a personality conflict as a race conflict, in fact it more probable in this day and age not to be a race conflict and more likely a personality conflict - these were too people used to being in control, those kinds of personalities often conflict

it is sad though that Gates, a man with his statue went into a race rant so quickly, I think that woudl be something I would be interested in hearing him discuss, maybe he could help those that have these feelings come to terms with them and help others understand why some like Gates have them by discussing it openly now that his rant put him in the spotlight

[Hey Paula]

Hey Paula! Good to "see" you.

Yes. But Cambridge PD called HUPD on July 16th. Also, the house is owned by Harvard.

I don't understand why someone whose house was broken into would go away two weeks later without having the door repaired. Burglars could easily have gotten in there just like Gates did.

Hinky.

imo

It's always a pleasure to see you too, FP!

Although I've read posts on the net referring to Gates' house previously being broken into, I haven't come across anything official. However, I have heard media reports referring to a prior break-in.

Ted Williams appeared on Greta's show tonight and said Sgt Crowley was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't, for had he not questioned Gates and he had actually broken into the house, pretending to be Gates, Gates could have used the same racial argument to chastise Crowley for believing the thief and dismissing it. TW also thought BO was out of line when claiming the police acted "stupidly" after having claimed he didn't know the facts of the case.

During the same presser, BO insulted the police and physicians/surgeons too by claiming they would remove a child's tonsils because it would earn them more money. Is he arrogant, unsophisticated, immature, or all of the above? :ohmy:

[MiamiNice1]

I think that's incorrect.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_Portuguese_people_Hispanic
Being of Brazilian/Portuguese descent, it gets tricky when it comes to any ethnic questions on official forms, especially the census.....there is never a designation for me. Just as it is written in your link, I'm always forced to mark "other" :crying:.....(:laugh:)

Brazilians, who also live in South America, are not considered Hispanic because they are of Portuguese descent.

imo

[Hey Paula]

Being of Brazilian/Portuguese descent, it gets tricky when it comes to any ethnic questions on official forms, especially the census.....there is never a designation for me. Just as it is written in your link, I always mark "other" :crying:



imo

Hello, my friend! :smile:

I recall this same argument arose when discussing Laci Peterson's ethnicity designation due to her Dad being Portuguese. Many of the posters believed she was Hispanic until proven otherwise.

It's great to see you!

[MiamiNice1]

Hello, my friend! :smile:

I recall this same argument arose when discussing Laci Peterson's ethnicity designation due to her Dad being Portuguese. Many of the posters believed she was Hispanic until proven otherwise.

It's great to see you!
Hey.....you've been missed! :wub:

Yes, you're right - I remember that debate. (you have such a good memory!)

As a nation, we are all so hung up on this (ethnicity), aren't we? Look where it has landed us - in the very unpleasant GatesvsCrowley debacle, with no less than the President unnecessarily/mistakenly stoking the fires of a very ugly situation.

imo

[Hey Paula]

Hey.....you've been missed! :wub:

Yes, you're right - I remember that debate. (you have such a good memory!)

As a nation, we are all so hung up on this (ethnicity), aren't we? Look where it has landed us - in the very unpleasant GatesvsCrowley debacle, with no less than the President unnecessarily/mistakenly stoking the fires of a very ugly situation.

imo

I've missed you too! :wub:

I thought we were beyond this, especially since having elected BO, and that applies to most who didn't vote for him too because I believe race was not a determining factor in most of those decisions. It's situations like this and idiotic statements like those of Janeane Garofalo which stoke the fires of racism. BO got more (or should I say less?) than he bargained for when he made that statement because it drove his approval rating down.

IMO

[MiamiNice1]

I've missed you too! :wub:

I thought we were beyond this, especially since having elected BO, and that applies to most who didn't vote for him too because I believe race was not a determining factor in most of those decisions. It's situations like this and idiotic statements like those of Janeane Garofalo which stoke the fires of racism. BO got more (or should I say less?) than he bargained for when he made that statement because it drove his approval rating down.

IMO
The backlash has been huge for Obama, imo, as this has been a tremendous setback for race relations. It was deeply disappointing. I agree - the "piling on" by people with no business inflaming, is unnecessary.

I was conflicted about Crowley attending the "Beer Summit," but I mean, how far can this go on? I suppose it was necessary for everyone to make nice and end this in a civilized fashion and it made me extremely happy that Crolwey held his ground. He is a man who is convicted that he did nothing wrong.

I'm satisfied that most people "get" what the GatesvsCrowley situation was really about, and the same regarding the invitation to the White House.

imo

[Hey Paula]

The backlash has been huge for Obama, imo. I agree - the "piling on" by people with no business inflaming, is unnecessary.

I was conflicted about Crowley attending the "Beer Summit," but I mean, how far can this go on? I suppose it was necessary for everyone to make nice and end this in a civilized fashion and it made me extremely happy that Crolwey held his ground. He is a man who is convicted that he did nothing wrong.

I'm satisfied that most people "get" what the GatesvsCrowley situation was really about, and the same regarding the invitation to the White House.

imo

It shouldn't come as a surprise that I felt the same way as you re the "Beer Summit". I felt Sgt Crowley deserved a public apology, prior to accepting the invitation, after having been unjustly and publicly maligned. I truly hope lessons were learned from this, since BO defined it as a "teachable moment".

IMO

[LisaM22]

I agree completely. I think Obama should not have become involved.<snip>

I think most agree with that, even his supporters like me

[MiamiNice1]

I agree completely. I think Obama should not have become involved. It didn't look to me watching the video that a good time was had by all.
Anyway, 'beergate' is over and done with. It just remains to see how much collateral damage has been done to Obama. Originally, I didn't think much but now I'm not too sure.
Yes, you are right, I didn't see too many open smiles amongst the participants today. Everyone, to me, seemed to be on their guard.

The one word used to repeatedly describe the upcoming meeting made by different commentators (and rightly so) before it happened was:

A W K W A R D!

imo

[MiamiNice1]

Thankyou, Pattycake, for the edification. I enjoyed reading the link!

[MiamiNice1]

Definitely. As far as a 'teachable' lesson, I have my doubts. I really don't think that anyone has changed their ideas about GateGate, CrowleyGate, whatever you want to call it.
To both Hey Paula and gmr32 -

I wanted to comment on that "teachable moment" remark - it backfired, as I don't think it was quite what either Gates or Obama wanted people to learn about them. Unfortunately, that "teachable moment" did not place Gates or Obama in a flattering light.

imo

[IaNsSyAlNuE]

To both Hey Paula and gmr32 -

I wanted to comment on that "teachable moment" remark - it backfired, as I don't think it was quite what either Gates or Obama wanted people to learn about them. Unfortunately, that "teachable moment" did not place Gates or Obama in a flattering light.

imo

You couldn't be more correct. :smile:

[shiloh2000]

Beerfest? That's a name that the right wing has attached to the meeting. Why is it necessary to bash every singlething this current administration does? Seems to me if you start going over Jr. and Cheney's record and achievements for the last 8 years you would have plenty to keep you busy for at least the next 10 years.

mo

Do you remember the left wing and what they called all the tea parties? Why was it necessary to bash and call that names?

Pot meet kettle........

[ExArkie]

To both Hey Paula and gmr32 -

I wanted to comment on that "teachable moment" remark - it backfired, as I don't think it was quite what either Gates or Obama wanted people to learn about them. Unfortunately, that "teachable moment" did not place Gates or Obama in a flattering light.

imo

I will NEVER understand how the smartest and best educated people in the room can be so DUMB about normal things. I do not need a Harvard education to know that using the word, "stupidly" in that context, would tick off just about all the cops in this country, plus, lots of other hard working, law-abiding folks. That goes for Professor Gates, also. What rock do these guys live under - how can they get through life without one particle of commonsense.:rolleyes: I voted for BO and support his presidency; but, really.......:ohmy:

[Carol25]

I will NEVER understand how the smartest and best educated people in the room can be so DUMB about normal things. I do not need a Harvard education to know that using the word, "stupidly" in that context, would tick off just about all the cops in this country, plus, lots of other hard working, law-abiding folks. That goes for Professor Gates, also. What rock do these guys live under - how can they get through life without one particle of commonsense.:rolleyes: I voted for BO and support his presidency; but, really.......:ohmy:
I agree, ExArkie. Could it be that those with an agenda act DUMB regardless of their education? There's a difference between intelligence and education...I call bigots ignorants. No amount of education helps that. They choose to believe and reinforce the biases with reading or engaging with those of the same belief only.

[Carol25]

The biggest eye opener I had in the last year was WRIGHT. Adding this to the mix, I now wonder just who is propogating the racist agenda. We haven't seen this much racist talk in years.

I have, as most on this board, black friends and co workers that I respect highly. The people mentioned in QalynotQaly's article would never measure up to my friends.

[ABC]

I believe Gates was being a jerk, I have no doubt about that in my mind, I think it is sad he had to bring race into this, I am sure in his mind he believed it, but still... I just do not think he should of been arrested that night, I think they should of tried to calm him down a bit more and had he not stopped then arrested him, how many times on cops you see the old irate lady go on and on and on and not get arrested, yet in this case in less then 5 minutes gates was in cuffs

No wonder Skip had such a look of surprise on his face. He must be just getting started to lecture the Working Class Hero, Officer Crowley who was just doing his job. I think Dog the Bounty Hunter bust into folks digs and arrest them. Seems to me if Dog can do it so can the Police. BTW, what does Gates teach? Anyone know?

[Lady_Jean_La]

Being of Brazilian/Portuguese descent, it gets tricky when it comes to any ethnic questions on official forms, especially the census.....there is never a designation for me. Just as it is written in your link, I'm always forced to mark "other" :crying:.....(:laugh:)

imo

I'm listening to a local radio station this morning which is discussing the 911 call. They are playing other 911 calls. In every call the operator ask if the perp is black, white or hispanic. I'm wondering if it depends on area because my area has many asians and asian gangs. What about Alaska would they ask the same question?

imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

Hello, my friend! :smile:

I recall this same argument arose when discussing Laci Peterson's ethnicity designation due to her Dad being Portuguese. Many of the posters believed she was Hispanic until proven otherwise.

It's great to see you!

It might be a California-Nevada thing. Portuguese while a minority are so small they are combined with Hispanic as far as descrimination complaints. There are small areas where Basque people settled but have now been swallowed up. Many groups during the Gold Rush settled in the west and stuck to themselves for generations.

imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

Do you remember the left wing and what they called all the tea parties? Why was it necessary to bash and call that names?

Pot meet kettle........It is all about dividing! Us versus them. imo

[Lady_Jean_La]

No wonder Skip had such a look of surprise on his face. He must be just getting started to lecture the Working Class Hero, Officer Crowley who was just doing his job. I think Dog the Bounty Hunter bust into folks digs and arrest them. Seems to me if Dog can do it so can the Police. BTW, what does Gates teach? Anyone know?

I posted some information about Dr. Gates last night. Link is back aways.

[Lady_Jean_La]

can you give me the call letterso f the radio station i want to see if i can hear it here from work on my puter...TIAKSTE in Sacramento.

[MiamiNice1]

I'm listening to a local radio station this morning which is discussing the 911 call. They are playing other 911 calls. In every call the operator ask if the perp is black, white or hispanic. I'm wondering if it depends on area because my area has many asians and asian gangs. What about Alaska would they ask the same question?
imo
(bolding mine for emphasis)

Good question and observation (as always), LJL!

Maybe the way they (911 and other agencies) operate is Regional...those are probably the 3 descriptions used here in Miami, too. As so many have pointed out here, it has got to be a matter of expediency - it must make the job of finding the perps MUCH easier!

imo

[MiamiNice1]

HA! Nice to meet you Miami, i'm portuguese as well!!!!! :thumbsup:
Prazer de conhecer-lo, brito! :biggrin: I had wondered about the "brito" part of your nic before! ;)

[MiamiNice1]

I will NEVER understand how the smartest and best educated people in the room can be so DUMB about normal things. I do not need a Harvard education to know that using the word, "stupidly" in that context, would tick off just about all the cops in this country, plus, lots of other hard working, law-abiding folks. That goes for Professor Gates, also. What rock do these guys live under - how can they get through life without one particle of commonsense.:rolleyes: I voted for BO and support his presidency; but, really.......:ohmy:
You are right about how dumb it was to use such an ugly, inflammatory word as "stupidly." Especially when you compare that to his next words, that he could have "calibrated" his words more carefully.....it makes me think Obama was in an awful hurry to get his "point" out to the masses regarding the "racial profiling."

IMO, it could also be that as Obama has been riding a media-inflated, he-can-do-no-wrong wave, he might be falling victim and believing his own press..... this time, though, his professor-like "scolding" went tooooo far.

imo

[Details]

I agree completely. I think Obama should not have become involved. It didn't look to me watching the video that a good time was had by all.
Anyway, 'beergate' is over and done with. It just remains to see how much collateral damage has been done to Obama. Originally, I didn't think much but now I'm not too sure.President or not - when you've heard your old friend has been arrested for B&E of his own house - I think most any of us would have done the same - answer the question based on our knowledge of our old friend, and the few facts we've been given. And hopefully most of us would do the same thing when we find out the facts we were given were wrong - step back and change our position.

Beerfest wasn't about a good time - it was about a neutral environment for a police officer to explain the facts of life and the dangers of police work to the professor, and for the professor to explain how an officer coming into his house looks to him after all the stories of profiling and far worse. It appears to have more than succeeded - Gates seems to have gotten a message there, from his statement, Crowley too seems to have done some good communication and plans to continue it.

Crowley seems a really great guy, and for him to be willing to continue the meetings just seems to be part of the type of police officer he is, that has given him so many supporters - he wants to SOLVE the problem, not rub in Gates face how wrong he was. Talking can improve matters, maybe even make calls safer for his colleagues.


Obama made one mistake - and one that most of us would make - when hit with an unexpected question and partial (and incorrect) facts, he assumed his friend was in the right. I don't think that will hurt his standing long term, not with how well he has managed the issue since, at all.

[Veritas]

Look at this picture. Note the person helping Mr.Gates down the steps. Note where his friend, Barack Obama, is.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/afterbeers_PS-0436.jpg

[MiamiNice1]

Look at this picture. Note the person helping Mr.Gates down the steps. Note where his friend, Barack Obama, is.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/afterbeers_PS-0436.jpg
:ohmy: Good catch!

eta - Crowley is a gentleman.

[Details]

Look at this picture. Note the person helping Mr.Gates down the steps. Note where his friend, Barack Obama, is.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/afterbeers_PS-0436.jpgAnd that is what we call SUCCESS!

Gates is letting the cop he thought was a racist out to get him help him down, instead of going for his friend - obviously they're talking and listening to each other as they walk. Obama is doing just what he should - stepping back so they can communicate.

Look at that. Would anyone imagine before this beerfest, that the Professor who was so furious about the racist cops arresting him, and the cop, called every name in the book by said professor - before and after the arrest - would be walking arm in arm? Talking to each other, rather than yelling at each other?

Really - look at that body language - leaning in towards each other, heads down and angled towards the other - that's two people talking to each other. No hostility.

[LisaM22]

Look at this picture. Note the person helping Mr.Gates down the steps. Note where his friend, Barack Obama, is.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/afterbeers_PS-0436.jpg

shows the meeting went well to me, great picture, I have the feeling these two are actually becoming friends, amazing how things turn out isn't it

[MiamiNice1]

Well, you can't say that people didn't try to warn the American voters that you can't sit in Reverand Wright's church for twenty years if you are not also a racist.

Look at Obama's friends:

Wright
Ayers
Ogletree (was a black panther)
Gates
Jesse Jackson

But denial took over.

imo
There is a definite pattern, IMO. The media all but ignored this troubling aspect in their fervor to elect Obama.

As my (Brazilian) grandmother would always say: "Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are."

imo

[LisaM22]

Crowley is an extremely nice man! :thumbsup:

I agree 100%, he seems like a very nice man to me

[MiamiNice1]

:thumbup: are you a Ronaldo fan too? :drool: sorry O/T
AND Kaka :wub:!!

[Details]

shows the meeting went well to me, great picture, I have the feeling these two are actually becoming friends, amazing how things turn out isn't itI've got this feeling that one of Gate's biggest surprises was that the cop was at least as intelligent as he was. A lot of people in his social class tend to think of the police as stupid. Getting to know a few takes care of that. Like any group - some are - but not the best.

[RayStar]

Well, you can't say that people didn't try to warn the American voters that you can't sit in Reverand Wright's church for twenty years if you are not also a racist.

Look at Obama's friends:

Wright
Ayers
Ogletree (was a black panther)
Gates
Jesse Jackson

But denial took over.

imoThe president is not a friend of Jesse Jackson Sr.

If Crowley had shown this respect at Dr. Gates' home, we would not have a need for this thread.

Details your post at 1:23 pm today is a very intelligent one. I suspect most friends would react this way and it takes a stand up guy to amend his error in the words he spoke .

[Details]

There is a definite pattern, IMO. The media all but ignored this troubling aspect in their fervor to elect Obama.

As my (Brazilian) grandmother would always say: "Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are."

imoObama has many friends. Selecting a few for the pattern you desire shows more about you than him.

Select my craziest friends and acquaintances (a bisexual former prostitute, a serial mistress to all kinds of married men) - and you'll have one picture of me. Select my most sedate ones (a devout bible-thumper, an extremely introverted person who almost never leaves her house), and a whole different picture will show.

Obama has always had a wide range of friends and acquaintances - some on that list are far more acquaintance than friend, if that. Pick out the ones all on one side, and you can create almost any image you like.

[ABC]

He's a better man than I.
Me too. They would have drug me kicking and screaming to the Rose Garden or perhaps the Sgt. was forced to go or face some kind of problem at his job. Thank Heavens for Joe Biden, who can talk to a rock. Without him, I think the three would have sat around staring at each other. :scared:

[MiamiNice1]

Obama has many friends. Selecting a few for the pattern you desire shows more about you than him.

Select my craziest friends and acquaintances (a bisexual former prostitute, a serial mistress to all kinds of married men) - and you'll have one picture of me. Select my most sedate ones (a devout bible-thumper, an extremely introverted person who almost never leaves her house), and a whole different picture will show.

Obama has always had a wide range of friends and acquaintances - some on that list are far more acquaintance than friend, if that. Pick out the ones all on one side, and you can create almost any image you like.
Details, you are a very articulate poster and I enjoy reading your posts, even when I do not agree with some of them. I'll even overlook your insult in your second sentence - for this one time.

That said, yes, I do think any reasonable person can see that unless someone is not comfortable with the listed people's radical philosophies, they would not be friends. Obama doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with it, as he did sit throughout 20 years of Wright's open bias and in the process of trying to defend his friend Gates, Obama made the incident into "racial profiling" as well.

I agree that we are all a sum TOTAL of our experiences and friendships, but the "part" that Obama chose to highlight in this incident with Gates was about race - something that list of friends seem to have made a lifelong career out of. When you think about it - so has Obama, if you have read his books. To me, his books are heavy on racial overtones.

IMO

[Details]

Details, you are a very articulate poster and I enjoy reading your posts, even when I do not agree with some of them. I'll even overlook your insult in your second sentence - for this one time.

That said, yes, I do think any reasonable person can see that unless someone is not comfortable with the listed people's radical philosophies, they would not be friends. Obama doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with it, as he did sit throughout 20 years of Wright's open bias and in the process of trying to defend his friend Gates, Obama made the incident into "racial profiling" as well.

I agree that we are all a sum TOTAL of our experiences and friendships, but the "part" that Obama chose to highlight in this incident with Gates was about race - something that list of friends seem to have made a lifelong career out of. When you think about it - so has Obama, if you have read his books. To me, his books are heavy on racial overtones.

IMOYou've made a list of people - more than one of which is not his friend, one of which is a slight acquaintance that once worked for the same organization as he did - and not closely, the rest of which I've never seen Obama claiming as friends, other than Gates. Wright has been turned into the boogeyman - how is he different from my friend who is a former prostitute? Am I a prostitution supporter because I count her a friend? Or do I simply appreciate other parts of her personality? Wright does a lot of good for a lot of people - black and white. His speeches are not so extreme when you read the WHOLE thing, rather than some little tidbits clipped out for maximum effect. He does tend to charged opinions - that doesn't mean he should be dumped for his imperfections - and he hadn't been pastor of that church for a very long time that Obama was going there...

I was never comfortable with my acquaintance's willingness to date a married man - but she had other redeeming qualities. The person I know who is a bible thumper - I'm quite the atheist - yet she is a close friend. To go by your standard, I must be secretly religious because I'm willing to tolerate her beliefs and statements.

Obama's life shows his true beliefs - and it is not those of a racist. His entire record shows who he really is. You want to paint him as a racist - do so with what he has done, not the old games of guilt by association. Obama made one simple mistake - one I think any of us would have made. He had partial facts (thought Gates was arrested for B&E - that would indeed have been stupid), and assumed his friend was in the right. Even there - he stated he had only partial facts, limited himself to mostly general statements - then made his one mistake - said the arrest was stupid - because by what he knew at that point (arrested for B&E of his own house) - it was.

[Details]

I'm sure that Sgt. Crowley's Lieutenant and Captain discussed it with him. If he had just said "I'm not going" that would send a message of it's own. He didn't look thrilled to be there but I think he's handled the whole situation well.
IMOCrowley suggested it - there's no reason to think he had to be forced to go along. IMO, because he is the bigger man, and he does believe in police work, and working with the community to make things better. Not to mention it's an honor, and the trip of a lifetime!

How many of us get praised personally by the President, invited to a private meeting? It's nothing most of us have even as the remotest possibility.

[RayStar]

with all due respect, i'm not sure how much RESPECT i would give someone if asked to go outside and i received a response like "with yo mamma"......

with all due respect Where did you hear that statement? OK only from crowley who lied on his police report.

[MiamiNice1]

You've made a list of people - more than one of which is not his friend, one of which is a slight acquaintance that once worked for the same organization as he did - and not closely, the rest of which I've never seen Obama claiming as friends, other than Gates. Wright has been turned into the boogeyman - how is he different from my friend who is a former prostitute? Am I a prostitution supporter because I count her a friend? Or do I simply appreciate other parts of her personality? Wright does a lot of good for a lot of people - black and white. His speeches are not so extreme when you read the WHOLE thing, rather than some little tidbits clipped out for maximum effect. He does tend to charged opinions - that doesn't mean he should be dumped for his imperfections - and he hadn't been pastor of that church for a very long time that Obama was going there...

I was never comfortable with my acquaintance's willingness to date a married man - but she had other redeeming qualities. The person I know who is a bible thumper - I'm quite the atheist - yet she is a close friend. To go by your standard, I must be secretly religious because I'm willing to tolerate her beliefs and statements.

Obama's life shows his true beliefs - and it is not those of a racist. His entire record shows who he really is. You want to paint him as a racist - do so with what he has done, not the old games of guilt by association. Obama made one simple mistake - one I think any of us would have made. He had partial facts (thought Gates was arrested for B&E - that would indeed have been stupid), and assumed his friend was in the right. Even there - he stated he had only partial facts, limited himself to mostly general statements - then made his one mistake - said the arrest was stupid - because by what he knew at that point (arrested for B&E of his own house) - it was.

1) I did not make the "list."

2) I did agree with the list that was made.

3) Wright was not only a pastor, but a mentor, married the Obamas and I believe Obama even said he was like an "uncle" to him. There are many other actions - throughout 20 years - demonstrating a "friendship" not casual acquaintance.

4) I agree that Obama's life shows his true beliefs - starting in college, and from there forward, he embraced a particular side of his race. The most telling quotes from his books describing his entire life and actions were all posted on the first CrowleyvsGates thread and there is NO DOUBT as to his beliefs.

5) One simple mistake? There were links given on the first GatesvsCrowley thread that BEFORE the PC, Obama had been prepared/advised this question was going to be posed to him. He was "prepared" for the question. He couldn't take the time to get the facts?

6) Funny how Obama jumped on the "racial profiling" accusations instead of being outraged that his friend Gates was arrested for B&E of his own house.

You can keep your accusations to yourself. I never called Obama a racist. Sorry, but when the Obama defenders don't like what is said about him, no matter how true, they insult the posters.

You will have to settle to "agree to disagree" with me - I'm leaving to enjoy a HOT, HUMID, Miami day.

imo

[flareon]

Well, you can't say that people didn't try to warn the American voters that you can't sit in Reverand Wright's church for twenty years if you are not also a racist.

Look at Obama's friends:

Wright
Ayers
Ogletree (was a black panther)
Gates
Jesse Jackson

But denial took over.

imo

I'm not sure Obama would be considered a friend of these people. These are people he used in order to further his political career.

I don't think too many people bought into the nonsense that Obama wasn't aware of Wright's views. What was clear to me was that he needed Wright to get a foothold into that community and then tried to distance himself when it wasn't politically advantageous.

[flareon]

There is a definite pattern, IMO. The media all but ignored this troubling aspect in their fervor to elect Obama.

As my (Brazilian) grandmother would always say: "Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are."

imo

Your grandmother was a wise woman.

The media has ignored much about Obama. Much to the detriment of the country.

[Details]

1) I did not make the "list."

2) I did agree with the list that was made.

3) Wright was not only a pastor, but a mentor, married the Obamas and I believe Obama even said he was like an "uncle" to him. There are many other actions - throughout 20 years - demonstrating a "friendship" not casual acquaintance.I never said Wright was a casual acquaintance - that's others on the list. All the same - ever had an uncle that had beliefs you disagreed with, while being a good person in other ways? I've grandparents that way - I love them - but racism, sexism - yep they've got it - and plenty. Exemplary ideals, an incredible life, an ability to rise above their prejudices, self-sacrifice, charity - they've got that too. It's a whole package. Have you ever bothered to look at EVERYTHING Wright is - or just the few excerpts that are so popular? Look at his charity work, listen to the white man who says Wright convinced his black fiancée to go through with the marriage, look to the whole sermon, even in the controversial ones, not just the little tiny excerpt? 4) I agree that Obama's life shows his true beliefs - starting in college, and from there forward, he embraced a particular side of his race. The most telling quotes from his books describing his entire life and actions were all posted on the first CrowleyvsGates thread and there is NO DOUBT as to his beliefs.

5) One simple mistake? There were links given on the first GatesvsCrowley thread that BEFORE the PC, Obama had been prepared/advised this question was going to be posed to him. He was "prepared" for the question. He couldn't take the time to get the facts? Yeah, I'm aware people claim that - but the person who asked the question has debunked that. She says she NEVER told them what question she was asking - she was told she might get a question, she thought about what she'd want to ask - and decided to go off the topic (healthcare) to have a more controversial subject. Obama wasn't warned. He may have been aware it was possible someone would ask - but no, it wasn't a prepared anything.6) Funny how Obama jumped on the "racial profiling" accusations instead of being outraged that his friend Gates was arrested for B&E of his own house.Being arrested for B&E of your own house IS pretty certain to be racial profiling. There's not really any other excuse for it in this case. That's not what happened - but that's how the story was being reported at the start, so it's reasonable for Obama to think it was what happened.

[Details]

Harvard Professor redeems Harvard and instructs Gates

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528630



And Gates is obviously raising an elitist clone in his daughter.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-31/what-i-saw-at-the-beer-summit/


Bashing Crowley's young daughter unnecessarily and basically admitting that Obama has done nothing to move America to a "post-racial" nation as a result of his election.

IMOBoth articles are good. I think the first is a very fitting reprimand - maybe from someone Gates might listen to.

The second - I think you're really misreading that paragraph. Gates's daughter is IDENTIFYING with Crowley's daughter, as a reflection of her younger self "I saw my former self in her", identifying with their entire family. Like any most - she's of course on her father's side - no doubt Crowley's daughter also thinks her father is perfectly right.

Interesting you fail to quote her compliment and observation, "This wasn't a family raised on hate", their pleasant conversation.

[flareon]

Harvard Professor redeems Harvard and instructs Gates

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528630



And Gates is obviously raising an elitist clone in his daughter.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-31/what-i-saw-at-the-beer-summit/



Bashing Crowley's young daughter unnecessarily and basically admitting that Obama has done nothing to move America to a "post-racial" nation as a result of his election.

IMO

You have to understand people like that. They don't have the internal governor in order to control themselves. They really can't help it.