7/29, 7/30

[disneyfreak]

Just starting a new daily thread. I hope the moderators won't mind.
Yesterday's thread was herehttp://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=356515 if you want to continue on topics we were discussing.

Looking forward to hearing from everyone today after we all have gotten some rest.

[aproudmom]

Good Morning everyone and thanks disneyfreak for the new thread...I am just now seeing if anything new so far I have not seen anything other than the doctor was arrested on domestic violence charges in 1994 after an incident with his then-girlfriend. The doctor was tried and acquitted. dont know what that has anything to do with MJ but guess GMA thought they would throw it in..

[crazymama]

This fellow managed to kill himself by infusion of propofol. Not saying MJ did, just showing its possible.

Department of Forensic Medicine and Institute of Forensic Medicine, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea. yoosh@snu.ac.kr
koreamed.org/SearchBasic.php?DT=1&RID=497243

We report the case of the death of a 38 year-old male plastic surgeon found dead at his own hospital. The only notable reason for his death was intravenously administered propofol. An ampoule of propofol of 20 ml was discovered beside him. Although the pharmacokinetics of propofol would not allow the abuser to insert more than one bolus injection before losing consciousness, the infusion would be continuous in this case via fluid agent. However, the blood concentration of propofol was within therapeutic level, we concluded that death was the result of side effects rather than an overdose similar to other cases of propofol fatalities. In the present case, a continuous infusion contributed the most to the lengthy apnea. As medical professionals are a high incidence group of propofol abuse for recreational use, it would be necessary to investigate on the factors that could cause amplified side effects in cases of propofol fatalities unrelated to overdose.
--------
About Nurse Lee, MJ asks her for diprivan, she asks Dr.James about getting it, he says no. Next she is being admitted to a hospital, where they must have diprivan or maybe something else needed to use the drug. So maybe she is afraid this is going to come out, and she is making her story. My opinions. Why would MJ call her, with his doctor in the house, well maybe he's hoping it's a connection. Did she alert MJ's doctor's, any of them about his wanting to abuse this drug? All my thoughts, even the mean ones.

[Eagleeye]

This fellow managed to kill himself by infusion of propofol. Not saying MJ did, just showing its possible.

Department of Forensic Medicine and Institute of Forensic Medicine, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea. yoosh@snu.ac.kr
koreamed.org/SearchBasic.php?DT=1&RID=497243

We report the case of the death of a 38 year-old male plastic surgeon found dead at his own hospital. The only notable reason for his death was intravenously administered propofol. An ampoule of propofol of 20 ml was discovered beside him. Although the pharmacokinetics of propofol would not allow the abuser to insert more than one bolus injection before losing consciousness, the infusion would be continuous in this case via fluid agent. However, the blood concentration of propofol was within therapeutic level, we concluded that death was the result of side effects rather than an overdose similar to other cases of propofol fatalities. In the present case, a continuous infusion contributed the most to the lengthy apnea. As medical professionals are a high incidence group of propofol abuse for recreational use, it would be necessary to investigate on the factors that could cause amplified side effects in cases of propofol fatalities unrelated to overdose.
--------
About Nurse Lee, MJ asks her for diprivan, she asks Dr.James about getting it, he says no. Next she is being admitted to a hospital, where they must have diprivan or maybe something else needed to use the drug. So maybe she is afraid this is going to come out, and she is making her story. My opinions. Why would MJ call her, with his doctor in the house, well maybe he's hoping it's a connection. Did she alert MJ's doctor's, any of them about his wanting to abuse this drug? All my thoughts, even the mean ones.

What was Nurse Lee admitted to the hospital for and I haven't seen that reported anywhere?

[crazymama]

What was Nurse Lee admitted to the hospital for and I haven't seen that reported anywhere?
---------
Someone posted the link last night.
ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/30/transcript-of-cherilyn-lee-interview/
CNN
Cherilyn Lee: it is a — you know, still I don’t want to go into a whole lot of detail with it. It’s in the PDR, I sat down with Michael and I said I actually left him that day because he didn’t understand. He kept thinking this was safe. I went all the way back to my office, went back to him and said, look. This medication is not safe. I don’t know who is telling you this is safe. It isn’t. He said I just want to get some sleep. You don’t understand. I want the IV when it drips in my hand; I want to be able to be knocked out and go to sleep. And this was the very first time, even though we had discussed this before that I told him, you know, it is so painful because I actually felt it in my whole spirit. I said if you take that, you know, you want to be knocked out, and I’m so sorry but if you take this you might not wake up.

Campbell: do you know if he took your advice? Did he go to the hospital? Was there any way to follow-up?

Cherilyn Lee: what happened was, I was actually at the hospital myself. I was in the emergency room in St. Petersburg. And was being admitted myself. So I tried to call back later and I could not reach anyone. And I was — I was in Florida for a couple of days there. When I arrived back in L.A., I still was trying to reach, you know, I could not reach anyone. So I didn’t know whether or not he had gone.

Campbell: did you go to the authorities with any of this?

Cherilyn Lee: no

[Firehead11]

I have a question, if what Lee is stating is the truth, what do you think any authority would have done about it? It is not a controlled substance. Would they have gone to the house and done? Could his death have been prevented if she had?

[flipflop]

We're told the prescription practices became so egregious that one prominent pharmacy wouldn't even bother to write the patient's name when a certain doctor called in scripts for Jackson.

Law enforcement sources say the Jackson case could be the biggest of its kind when it comes to doctors who enabled celebrity patients to fuel their drug addiction ... and we're told criminal charges could loom large.

http://www.tmz.com/


That is just crazy. I hope there are a lot of charges. :angry:

[Eagleeye]

"Cherilyn Lee: well, that meant — it could have meant a couple of things. It could have meant something going on in the nervous system, or something cardiovascular, but more than nervous system because of the brain itself. and I had already gone through — I think this is why he was reaching out for me Sunday because I had already about three months ago went through all of the symptoms this medication that he wanted that his doctor told him and I don’t know who his doctor is. His doctor told him that this was safe.
Campbell: and you were talking — I’m sorry, go ahead.
Cherilyn Lee: I’m sorry.
Campbell: no, you’re talking about just correct me if I’m wrong, you’re talking about that drug called dipervan, is that correct?
Cherilyn Lee: yes"[quote] http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/30/transcript-of-cherilyn-lee-interview/

My bold:
Are we to interpret here that Lee herself took Diprivan?

[Eagleeye]

"Campbell: and was he asking you for the drug?
Cherilyn Lee: he was asking me for the drug. And he was asking me about it three months ago and I said I don’t know what that is so I excused myself from where he was, and I made a call to a friend who was a physician and I said what is? At first I thought he was mispronouncing it. Are you speaking of something else? He said no. and when I spoke with the physician he said that is a very — you do not — he asked me, he said who is asking about this drug? This is a medication you only really give in ICU." [quote]

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/30/transcript-of-cherilyn-lee-interview/

If the answer in my post #8 is yes then this is where she tripped herself up. She already knew what it was and was in CYA mode

[GentleBreeze]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/ap_en_ce/us_michael_jackson_chef

Jackson chef recalls doctor's role, final days

[GentleBreeze]

We're told the prescription practices became so egregious that one prominent pharmacy wouldn't even bother to write the patient's name when a certain doctor called in scripts for Jackson.

Law enforcement sources say the Jackson case could be the biggest of its kind when it comes to doctors who enabled celebrity patients to fuel their drug addiction ... and we're told criminal charges could loom large.

http://www.tmz.com/


That is just crazy. I hope there are a lot of charges. :angry:

I am thinking they are going to find other high celebrity patients as well when they complete their investigation.

imo

[aproudmom]

this was the heading..I am sorry but had to laugh..meat or overdose ok that is a little scary IMO this shows you it happens all the time and not to just the Rich and Famous doctors are handing this stuff out and people are dying..

Coroner: Woman died of overdose, not ‘tainted meat’

I was reading a 25yr old died of methadone overdose she was also on Xanax and went to a doctor over 2 hours away and the ME and LE are wondering why she was taking them well duh they are tracked so why don't they just check out the doctor...my gosh why do we have the DEA and tracking if they do not use it..and why do we give addicts a drug..

in 2008 they did shut a docs office down for prescribing to many controlled substances when they did a audit they caught it..guess the DEA calls it a pill audit these days..but it is still going on with other doctors
Price said today the practice recently underwent a routine audit by a government body, but would not say which body it was.

[aproudmom]

What was Nurse Lee admitted to the hospital for and I haven't seen that reported anywhere?

Eagle I have never heard her say only that she was in Florida and in the hospital herself...but she never said why that I know of..

[Eagleeye]

Eagle I have never heard her say only that she was in Florida and in the hospital herself...but she never said why that I know of..

Read the bold in my post #8. That was a clue to me that she had taken diprivan.

[aproudmom]

Read the bold in my post #8. That was a clue to me that she had taken diprivan.

:ohmy:OMG OK thanks

[aproudmom]

Incorrect quoting will be deleted.

sorry I did notice in one thread when I hit quote it did not show up right..but did not know why so if it was one of mine sorry

[aproudmom]

Athena one of mine messed up also and I did it right I guess just like I always do:confused:

[tiptop]

Read the bold in my post #8. That was a clue to me that she had taken diprivan.


When I read this, I take it to mean that 3 months ago MJ asked about the drug. She was unfamilar with it but found out and passed all the info along to him, so she was saying she had already went through all the symptom/info about it with him 3 months ago. JMO

[mrsmcgoo]

When I read this, I take it to mean that 3 months ago MJ asked about the drug. She was unfamilar with it but found out and passed all the info along to him, so she was saying she had already went through all the symptom/info about it with him 3 months ago. JMO

That is also what I got out of that statement, but was struggling on how to explain it. Great job.

JMO

[aproudmom]

Sorry do not want to quote yours just in case it messes up...lol.. Athena anyway I never said she took it I would hope not since she is talking alot..and I think why some may think she is not telling the whole truth is because 1 why would he call her on Fathers day? that was the same week he died did he not have this doctor? why the need to call her? I have no problem other than I think it is time for these people to stop talking on National TV she should have went to the police not on TV when this first came out..that is what I do not like..I think the 15 minutes are up something else she said the other day she said they ask her to Fax his medical records the last time I checked that is a NO NO it goes against the Patients rights..so I am not sure why she keeps saying they did not need to come to her office it was her wanting them to understand what the records meant..unless it is different in California
I do want to say it is great she brought it up or they may have never even checked I just wish these doctors and nurses would talk to LE and stay off TV ..

[aproudmom]

They weren't our errors aproudmom - it was the way the original poster wrote it.

oh ok well I wondered why it messed up..anyway I posted to you below..I don't think she gave him anything or did anything wrong and happy she talked I really just wish they would stop and let LE do their job and stay off TV....She did good by coming forward..and for turning him down..:thumbup:

[aproudmom]

Don't you have to be alive to get this award

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=79923
Nobel Peace Prize for Michael Jackson ? - Fans Start Online Petition

[Eagleeye]

Don't you have to be alive to get this award

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=79923
Nobel Peace Prize for Michael Jackson ? - Fans Start Online Petition

What's next? A statue of him in every major city of the world?
Good grief, he isn't even buried yet.

[aproudmom]

In response to aproudmom post# 25

At the time she had no idea it was diprivan that killed MJ. I believe she went on TV because she said she was tired of hearing them drag MJ's name through the mud with all of the drugs that he was allegedly on and she didn't think he was taking any (right or wrong) so she wanted to speak up for MJ. There was no reason for her to go to LE at the time.

Re: faxing his medical records. Lee said she received a subpoena via email from LE asking her to fax them. She told them the file was too large to fax and they could come pick them up. She relayed this info either on JVM or NG.

Her continued appearances on TV is because TH's have requested her. I also believe it is therapeutic for her because I am sure she is asking herself what she could have done to prevent his death? She is suffering from guilt even though she has nothing to feel guilty about. This is normal for someone that experiences guilt. JMO

I see your point..I am glad she talked because I really have a feeling they would not have looked for this I could be wrong but it seemed like as soon as she talked they were back in the house..so I see what your saying..

[Firehead11]

My point ? Even if Lee did contact LE and informed them of this issue 3 months ago, I doubt that they could have done anything about it. Of course Lee has the "What if's."

People are asking why didn't she contact LE. Only she can answer that.

I know we will never know if this would have saved him.

[aproudmom]

Fans cannot nominate a Nobel Peace Prize candidate even if he were still alive. Personally I don't think he would even be considered.
Even Mahatma Gandhi never received one although he was nominated several times. Story in link


The names of the nominees cannot be revealed until 50 years later.

Is it possible to nominate someone for a posthumous Nobel Prize?

No, it is not. From 1974, the Statutes of the Nobel Foundation have stipulated that a Prize cannot be awarded posthumously, unless death has occurred after the announcement of the Nobel Prize. This happened in 1996 when William Vickrey died only a few days after the announcement of the Prize in Economics.

Before 1974, the Nobel Prize has only been awarded posthumously twice: to Dag Hammarskjöld (Nobel Peace Prize 1961) and Erik Axel Karlfeldt (Nobel Prize in Literature 1931)

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/nomination_facts.html

Thank you appreciate it
I think someone needs to let them know..lol..they have over 2000 people and it was on TV Guide channel...

[who_is_it]

<snipped>

Coroner: Woman died of overdose, not ‘tainted meat’

I was reading a 25yr old died of methadone overdose she was also on Xanax and went to a doctor over 2 hours away and the ME and LE are wondering why she was taking them well duh they are tracked so why don't they just check out the doctor...my gosh why do we have the DEA and tracking if they do not use it..and why do we give addicts a drug..

<snipped>
[/B]

It's very common that street addicts die of methadone or cocktails of alcohol and benzodiazepine (xanax belongs to the benzodiazepine class). In my country the prescription of methadone and benzodiazepine as substitutes is legal. There's also a black market for these prescription drugs.

[daniel green]

We're told the prescription practices became so egregious that one prominent pharmacy wouldn't even bother to write the patient's name when a certain doctor called in scripts for Jackson.

snipped:

Yowzer. :scared:

Never mind that one cannot "call in" Rxs for controlled substances, either. Not even for the percocette. The patient has to have a hard copy of the script.

Nothing like everyone bending the rules.

[daniel green]

MJ Friend -- He Almost Died During Trial
Posted Jul 29th 2009 12:20PM by TMZ Staff

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/mj-friend-he-almost-died-during-trial/

This is what TMZ is referring to in article above:




And so one thing led to another. So I have a friend of mind that has this huge machine (ph) in L.A. (INAUDIBLE) I said, If you can bring this machine down, Michael`s agreed to get on it. And they clamp you and they squeeze you, and it`ll print out everything in your body. And the only thing that it printed out was he was extremely dehydrated. Nothing wrong with his heart, nothing wrong with his lungs.

snipped
And we went to a hospital, and they examined him, and at 5:30 or a little bit before 6:00, they start intravenously putting liquid in him. At 6:00 o`clock the next morning, they were still putting water in him. And the doctor said to me, had he waited 12 more hours, he would have been dead.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/28/ng.01.html

1) More quackery. Sheesh. A machine that prints out everything in your body. :rolleyes:

2) Dehydration is a terrible problem for anorexics. Very dangerous.

[aproudmom]

Gloria Allred: Jackson Doctor Innocent Until Proven Guilty

http://www.theinsider.com/news/2615332_Gloria_Allred_Jackson_Doctor_Innocent_Unti l_Proven_Guilty
World-famous attorney Gloria Allred talks to Hollywood.tv about the Michael Jackson death investigation

[daniel green]

What's next? A statue of him in every major city of the world?
Good grief, he isn't even buried yet.

A Nobel Peace prize??????? That's a joke, right? :scared:

[daniel green]

snipped
Her continued appearances on TV is because TH's have requested her. I also believe it is therapeutic for her because I am sure she is asking herself what she could have done to prevent his death? She is suffering from guilt even though she has nothing to feel guilty about. This is normal for someone that experiences guilt. JMO

She was johnnyonthespot with the tv appearances. First one to talk about dirprivan. There is no way she didn't have to call in to get on those shows.

I think it's a wonderful tool to get publicity for her business at this point.

To ascribe survivor's guilt and to say she went on to stop "the trashing" of MJ's (which is, btw, the truth about him) is a bit too armchair pychiatry for my taste.

It is a shame that anyone would be treated by someone with such little education and training as Lee has. It worries me tremendously that SHE was called in, originally, to treat MJ's children.

[aproudmom]

1) More quackery. Sheesh. A machine that prints out everything in your body. :rolleyes:

2) Dehydration is a terrible problem for anorexics. Very dangerous.

my bolding

for prego women to I ended up in the hospital 3 times with my youngest son...also if you are dehydrated it is very very hard to get a vein for a IV when they said my foot I said H** no:smile:

[daniel green]

A turf war between Las Vegas law enforcement on one hand and the DEA and the LAPD on the other could have compromised yesterday's raids on Dr. Conrad Murray's office and home ... according to multiple law enforcement sources. We're told the DEA and LAPD wanted to conduct simultaneous raids in Houston and Las Vegas to maintain the element of surprise ... but the Vegas raids were delayed 6 days

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/power-grab-in-las-vegas-over-michael-jackson-case-raid-dea-lapd/

[daniel green]

Katherine Jackson's lawyer is officially squaring off with the two men Michael Jackson selected to handle his estate, claiming the co-executors are intentionally trying to keep Jackson's mom in the dark.
Londell McMillan just issued a statement making it clear -- he wants Katherine to become a co-executor. McMillan claims the co-executors -- John Branca and John McClain -- are not letting Katherine see the agreement Jackson signed with AEG. ... which McMillan says could be a huge source of income for the estate...One thing is clear -- it's getting ugly. UPDATE 9:43 AM ET Reps for the co-executors just issued a statement, saying the only thing the co-executors asked of Mrs. Jackson is a confidentiality agreement with respect to the AEG agreement but her lawyers refused. They also say it's apparent Katherine's lawyers want to "rewrite Michael's will to make Mrs. Jackson 'Guardian of the Estate' and have her appointed as an executor" ... the co-executors say it's just not what Michael wanted and he said so in his will.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/michael-jackson-katherine-jackson-will-probate-john-branca-john%20mcclain/

[daniel green]

Dr. Conrad Murray has emerged as the primary target in the death of Michael Jackson -- but law enforcement sources tell us a massive investigation is taking form into what could be fraudulent prescription practices of more than a dozen doctors ... and we're told that number could easily double. LAPD detectives and members of the L.A. County Coroner's office are gathering info on various doctors who treated Michael Jackson over the years. Subpoenas have been issued, medical files have been taken and conversations with various doctors and their lawyers are taking place. Jackson has used more than 2 dozen aliases to score drugs, with the help of doctors ... 19 alone are mentioned in the affidavits used to secure search warrants against Dr. Murray.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/massive-jackson-investigation-expanded/

[retiredcop]

well, retiredcop, you certainly called this one! GOLD STAR for you!

A NP that likes to claim she has a PhD. and that's she's a PA as well...what a NUT JOB!

Wow....I believed her to be credible ( Lee) ...after checking out her website and "credentials" ....all I can say is.... QUACK QUACK QUACK.....




all IMO

Yes, she is not credible at all.

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

I posted this a couple of weeks ago an seen someone else posted it...I think alot of things can cause problems with this drug..but LEE was not even treating him with this at the time..so not so sure why this was wrote up..

http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php
Michael Jackson: Cherilyn Lee, Diprivan® (propofol), and Myers' Cocktail

Most relevant to the Jackson case is that the safety of Myers' Cocktail is not yet clear. I am particularly concerned with the calcium composition of this intravenous brew; while not likely to be toxic on its own, if dosed as listed, I do have some concern if Mr Jackson already had pre-existing cardiac problems and/or was receiving drugs such as Demerol (meperidine) or Diprivan (propofol) which each pose a risk of cardiac toxicity.

So, while press reports will be focusing today on Diprivan (propofol), let us not forget to consider the potential contributions of this "natural, alternative" therapy in the sad case of his death.

[retiredcop]

I couldn't keep up with yesterday's thread at the very end about bleaching skin, but I think Mr Jackson just wanted to be white and used vitillago as an excuse to bleach his skin.

of course this is my opinion only

[daniel green]

Perhaps you saw how as the attendants moved Michael Jackson, his body lay nearly flat on the stretcher, as though there were an ironing board underneath the sheet, rather than the body of a full person.My guess from just a glance, is that he weighed around 100 pounds or less. Not slender, not thin, rather… entirely skeletal.

http://themoderatevoice.com/37011/demerolanorexiadehydrationdeath/

Problems associated with anorexia:

• Malnutrition
• Dehydration
• Ruptured stomach
• Serious heart, kidney, and liver damage
• Tooth/gum erosion
• Tears of the esophagus

http://www.anad.org/22385/index.html

[daniel green]

This is one thing I pointed out in the very beginning with these pharmacies. They should be held accountable and lose their licenses as well. I know our Dr. can call in a prescription but when medication is picked up; the hard copy HAS to be presented and in our pharmacy any controlled substance is logged and we have to sign for it. snipped:

Oh, yeah, these pharmacists need to lose their licenses, places need to be closed up. Just like any law enforcement would do with any drug dealer.

The law in the US is that scripts for scheduled substances (percocette and up) cannot be called/faxed in. The fact that these pharmacies would continue to engage in these practices, to the point of not even filling out the aliases, is disgusting.

[daniel green]

Yes, she is not credible at all.

in my opinion

Agreed. In terms of her background, education and non-training.

So I give absolutely no credence to any of her alleged "normal tests" she claims she administered.

However, she did know about the Diprivan. Whether she knew about it because he asked her for it, or because she saw it at his house or whatever, or knew from the staff--that's a whole n'other question.

But ack!!!!! :w00t: No way are her "results/findings" credible.

[daniel green]

I posted this a couple of weeks ago an seen someone else posted it...I think alot of things can cause problems with this drug..but LEE was not even treating him with this at the time..so not so sure why this was wrote up..

http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php
Michael Jackson: Cherilyn Lee, Diprivan® (propofol), and Myers' Cocktail

snipped.

I think that those were two different things and there is no evidence anywhere that Lee administered any such thing.

She says she gave him vitamins and from her own website she claims that IV Vit C can help cancer and HIV, etc. Just about every disease.

[daniel green]

Lee claims that Vit C can help with heavy metal poisoning, for petesakes. :scared: As well as a huge list of other diseases:

http://mynutrimed.com/nmclinic.htm

She makes some bizarro claims about IV Vit C and performs some outrageous treatments with it:

Clinical Use of Vitamin C IV (intravenous)

works as an oxidizing agent in massive amounts ( i.e. 50-150 grams) When used intravenously, it appears that Vitamin C acts as reducing agent, an oxidizing agent, anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, an antihistamine, and as a anti-infective agent.

She also, as per her website, does chelation, which has been known to kill many patients and to have killed many children with autism whose parents were told by quack practioners that it would help "take out the lead" that they alleged caused Autism.

Just troubling, troubling, troubling, this woman's business.

And, of course, totally unregulated by anyone.

[daniel green]

I don't think MJ had anorexia. He just didn't eat and drugs can suppress your appetite. Anorexia is deliberately not eating because you think you are fat. :confused:

I do think he was anorexic.

[Nic99]

============

I absolutely agree with u. jmo

I personally don't think anyone would use vitiligo as an excuse for anything. It is an awful disease, which causes very unsightly and often large patches of totally white skin. I think he was trying to blend them in anyway he could. It is easier to blend in with lighter tones than darker on a permanent basis, by the bleaching methods linked here previously.

[daniel green]

Just another of the bizarro "treatments" she performs. You have to see the picture of the little tent thing she puts patients in:


The Hyperthermia Full Body Treatment is helpful in the removal of toxins such as Dioxin, PCB, DDT, agricultural chemicals, heavy metals (for example, mercury), and toxins associated with modern diseases.

Some benefits of using the Hyperthermia Full Body Treatment in as little as 30 minutes a day (2 to 3 times per week or as needed per the recommendation of Dr. Cherilyn Lee.)

http://mynutrimed.com/nmhyper.htm

NUTS.

Putting a patient suffering from Dioxin poisoning in a hot tent will cure him/her?????? :ohmy::scared::cursing:

Or will get rid of mercury?

Along with the pharmacies that need to be closed and put out of business, so do snakeoil salesppl like this.

[retiredcop]

I personally don't think anyone would use vitiligo as an excuse for anything. It is an awful disease, which causes very unsightly and often large patches of totally white skin. I think he was trying to blend them in anyway he could. It is easier to blend in with lighter tones than darker on a permanent basis, by the bleaching methods linked here previously.

I don't think he had vitilligo at all. I think he just said he did. An excuse to his fans as to why he was turning white.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

Gloria Allred: Jackson Doctor Innocent Until Proven Guilty

http://www.theinsider.com/news/2615332_Gloria_Allred_Jackson_Doctor_Innocent_Unti l_Proven_Guilty
World-famous attorney Gloria Allred talks to Hollywood.tv about the Michael Jackson death investigation


While I do believe that, maybe she should take her own advice. Look at how she opened her mouth up many years ago.

[retiredcop]

Just another of the bizarro "treatments" she performs. You have to see the picture of the little tent thing she puts patients in:



http://mynutrimed.com/nmhyper.htm

NUTS.

Putting a patient suffering from Dioxin poisoning in a hot tent will cure him/her?????? :ohmy::scared::cursing:

Or will get rid of mercury?

Along with the pharmacies that need to be closed and put out of business, so do snakeoil salesppl like this.

This woman is the kind of nut who would keep people who need real medical attention from getting it. She's scary.

in my opinion

[Firehead11]

There have links provided to pictures in regards to his disease, and people still like to think he wanted to be 'white".

Why would anyone use a d8mn disease as an excuse? His skin could have been purple and that still would not have made his hertigae a puple people eater. He would still be an African American/Black man. :rolleyes:

[Nic99]

I don't think he had vitilligo at all. I think he just said he did. An excuse to his fans as to why he was turning white.

in my opinion

I have personal experience of vitiligo in my family and know what it looks like first-hand and do believe that Michael suffered with it. See below and scroll down; especially the pic with him in his Thriller suit, I believe this is when it was triggered and it clearly shows the patches when they first appeared. That is not skin bleaching in that pic, because it would be more even on the whole area and not patchy as it is imo:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Michael-Jackson-Battle-with-Lupus-and-Vitiligo

[retiredcop]

True!

imo

Did you follow the trial? Wasn't there someone who rented out storage units and when Mr Jackson didn't pay the fee for his unit for a long time, the man entered and claimed Mr Jackson's items as his? I remember something like that and a couple of items that were found in there a photographed.

in my opinion

[achristie]

Just another of the bizarro "treatments" she performs. You have to see the picture of the little tent thing she puts patients in:



http://mynutrimed.com/nmhyper.htm

NUTS.

Putting a patient suffering from Dioxin poisoning in a hot tent will cure him/her?????? :ohmy::scared::cursing:

Or will get rid of mercury?

Along with the pharmacies that need to be closed and put out of business, so do snakeoil salesppl like this.

There were rumors many years ago that MJ was using a hyperbaric chamber. I think he actually denied that at some point. No link, just something I recall. I wonder if this was part of his treatment, as she advertises it on her website? Poor Michael. He was a tortured soul. I wonder if he could have been bipolar. Very sad.

MOO Aggie

[CinderL.]

While I do believe that, maybe she should take her own advice. Look at how she opened her mouth up many years ago.

Ha, she never met a camera she didn't love. :wink: Or, microphone.

[daniel green]

I don't think he had vitilligo at all. snipped

Me, either. Not that it makes any difference.

But, the other things he did--the massive, multipleX1000 surgeries he had on his nose, etc, tell a similar story to the skin bleaching.

[GentleBreeze]

There have links provided to pictures in regards to his disease, and people still like to think he wanted to be 'white".

Why would anyone use a d8mn disease as an excuse? His skin could have been purple and that still would not have made his hertigae a puple people eater. He would still be an African American/Black man. :rolleyes:

I honestly don't understand why some insist that they KNOW:rolleyes: MJ wanted to be white when we have read article after article even years ago stating he had Viltilio and have even seen photos of the progression of Vitilio on his face and body.:shrug:



imo

[flipflop]

There have links provided to pictures in regards to his disease, and people still like to think he wanted to be 'white".

Why would anyone use a d8mn disease as an excuse? His skin could have been purple and that still would not have made his hertigae a puple people eater. He would still be an African American/Black man. :rolleyes:

If he wanted to be white wouldnt he have chosen a different type of wig/extensions, or whatever he used? I would think wanting to be white he wouldn't have kept the relaxed african american hairstyle.

[Nic99]

First of all an AA CANNOT turn white just by using bleaching cream. It gets to a certain point and will do NOTHING more by continued use. If a person without vitiligo used it it would just lighten their skin and would NOT be uniform. I think people need to educate themselves on what bleaching cream can and CANNOT do. Even a caucasian person would experience spotting from using bleaching cream for non-vitiligo. MJ used Benoquin which requires a prescription is specifically medication used for vitiligo JMHO

Yes I agree skin bleaching cream just would not do the trick. It is okay for minor skin whitening, but nothing major like vitiligo. There is NO way that could work for MJ, especially because he is a black person. It would not work for a white person either, although it would be less noticeable imo.

[disneyfreak]

Thank you. I thought she was a PA as well.

She is a licensed NP/RN without any actions against her. She is not a licensed PA. She cannot legally practice as a PA in the State of California. Her practice is in California and that is where she attended school so I do not know why she is not licensed.

[daniel green]

snipped MJ used Benoquin which requires a prescription is specifically medication used for vitiligo JMHO

I have an Rx for it and do not have vitiligo.

And from personal use/history as well as reading the Rx info for it, yes it does bleach skin white. It DEPIGMENTS. That is what it is meant to do.

[Nic99]

I have an Rx for it and do not have vitiligo.

And from personal use/history as well as reading the Rx info for it, yes it does bleach skin white. It DEPIGMENTS. That is what it is meant to do.

Why would you want your skin depigmented if you don't suffer from vitiligo? Sorry just curious, you don't have to answer:confused:

[Nic99]

Why would he want to be white, when he had acheived so much as a black man. Also.... I think the children are all his biologically.

imo...of course.

We are not saying that he 'wanted' to be white, we are saying that he suffered from vitiligo and the only treatment for that is lightening/depigmenting the skin, which causes it to lighten and therefore lessen the patchiness which can be very embarrassing and is awful to live with (believe me I know due to family experience). The person suffering will do anything to make the condition less noticeable and who would blame them; the whole world seems to judge on looks and first impressions and it is an awful illness which is very difficult to hide.

[daniel green]

Why would you want your skin depigmented if you don't suffer from vitiligo? Sorry just curious, you don't have to answer:confused:

I have sun damage spots that crop up now and again (brown) from having spent my childhood first in the Caribbean and then in Miami, FL. So I use it on them when they appear.

As I said yesterday, I have to be very careful--per instructions on the Rx and my dermatologist--to apply it ONLY to the dark spot and not surrounding skin, and is depigments and I wind up with white circles.

The Rx cream I use is called Lustra, which is hydroquin. But I used benoquin in the past yrs.

Here is the FDA info re benoquin:

thin layer of Benoquin Cream 20% should be applied and rubbed into the pigmented area two or three times daily, or as directed by physician. Prolonged exposure to sunlight should be avoided during treatment with Benoquin Cream 20%, or a sunscreen should be used.

Depigmentation is usually accomplished after one to four months of Benoquin Cream 20% treatment. If satisfactory results are not obtained after four months of Benoquin Cream 20% treatment, the drug should be discontinued. When the desired degree of depigmentation is obtained, Benoquin Cream 20% should be applied only as often as needed to maintain depigmentation (usually only two times weekly).

Also used for Melasma after pregnancy.

[Nic99]

I have sun damage spots that crop up now and again (brown) from having spent my childhood first in the Caribbean and then in Miami, FL. So I use it on them when they appear.

As I said yesterday, I have to be very careful--per instructions on the Rx and my dermatologist--to apply it ONLY to the dark spot and not surrounding skin, and is depigments and I wind up with white circles.

The Rx cream I use is called Lustra.

Here is the FDA info re benoquin:



Also used for Melasma after pregnancy.

Hi Daniel,
Thanks for answering my question I was just confused. It must be very difficult to get it just right in only small areas, I know that it can spread around the outside quite easily. Surely you can understand why MJ used it suffering so badly from vitiligo and being black as well, must have made it so much worse in a way. It shows up hugely in a white person, so it must have been very traumatic in a black person.
Nic

[daniel green]

snipped He claims, too, that Jackson had Lupus and the disease was being inflamed by "massive injections of collagen" administered to him by Dr. Arnold Klein.

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/07/76795/index.html

Sounds like the proverbial rats on a sinking ship to me.

[daniel green]

Hi Daniel,
Thanks for answering my question I was just confused. It must be very difficult to get it just right in only small areas, I know that it can spread around the outside quite easily. Surely you can understand why MJ used it suffering so badly from vitiligo and being black as well, must have made it so much worse in a way. It shows up hugely in a white person, so it must have been very traumatic in a black person.
Nic

No problem. TOTALLY horrible to keep just on the spot one needs lightened. I said yesterday that one had to choose one's poison. Either the dark spots or the white circles.

I have, personally, over the years seen many cases of African-Americans with vitiligo and my uncle's wife had vitiligo and it IS very disfiguring.

It makes no difference, really, why MJ used it to bleach out his skin--I mean, he did, in fact, bleach out his skin. No matter why. Not only could everyone see it, his docs have talked about it and the benoquin was found in his possession, etc.

Were it not for the fact that he refined his features to basic caucasian looks, it would not be as easy to dismiss the thoughts that the vitiligo claims are just an excuse.

[GentleBreeze]

Why would he want to be white, when he had achieved so much as a black man. Also.... I think the children are all his biologically.

imo...of course.

I have no clue why some insist he wanted to be a white man. I think that would be an interesting poll. Not that he had Vitilio but what is the race of the people that believe he did NOT have Vitilio and insists that he wanted to be a white man.:confused:

Anyone that has kept with MJ from the beginning of his career should know very well that MJ was very proud to be a black man.

I don't know if he is the biological father and it really doesn't matter one whit to those children imo. MJ was their daddy, period. No one no matter how hard they may try will ever change that in their hearts.

If you have seen the photos he did at one time use makeup to cover them but they became more pronounced and the splotches spread and when he was sweating the makeup would streak off to reveal the splotches on his chest, face, neck and hands. That is why MJ wearing only long sleeves trying to hide the splotched skin. Then wearing the hat, the glove and then used the umbrella.

I feel some have prosecuted this man for a traumatic skin disorder he had through no fault of his own but I have seen the same type of ignorant persecution that has happened in my own town where others suffer from it to and who were not understood but demeaned instead.

imo

[Nic99]

No problem. TOTALLY horrible to keep just on the spot one needs lightened. I said yesterday that one had to choose one's poison. Either the dark spots or the white circles.

I have, personally, over the years seen many cases of African-Americans with vitiligo and my uncle's wife had vitiligo and it IS very disfiguring.

It makes no difference, really, why MJ used it to bleach out his skin--I mean, he did, in fact, bleach out his skin. No matter why. Not only could everyone see it, his docs have talked about it and the benoquin was found in his possession, etc.

Were it not for the fact that he refined his features to basic caucasian looks, it would not be as easy to dismiss the thoughts that the vitiligo claims are just an excuse.

Yup it is very disfiguring for some and I think he did everything he could to hide it. I do think he had an issue about his nose from an early age, because his dad told him he had a big nose and used to tease him about it. I think this stuck with him, as it would most of us tbh, and he did something about it in later life and made it smaller through plastic surgery. I don't necessarily think though that these 2 things combined mean that he wanted to be a white person. It is just unfortunate for him he suffered from vitiligo and his dad made him very self-conscious about his nose, so he chose to change that. I don't believe he ever wanted to change into a white person, because everyone knew him as a black person anyway, so what would be the point.

[daniel green]

I have no clue why some insist he wanted to be a white man. snipped

1) because it is the perogative of any person to have an opinion.

2) because he lightened his skin so dramatically and altered his features so dramatically.

But everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and not to buy the pictures of the alleged vitiligo.

Everyone brings to anything their own experiences and histories and makes his/her own opinions.

[GentleBreeze]

Dr. Steven Hoefflin, one of Michael Jackson's former plastic surgeons, is speaking out to ET about "involuntary errors" he believes the L.A. Coroner made in its autopsy report on the late icon.

Hoefflin says he's been informed that the Coroner's office were incorrect in reporting that Jackson was wearing a nasal prosthesis and had lost his nose, leaving only two holes in its place.

"I believe that the coroner's office is profoundly competent and did a commendable job in their post-mortem examination of Michael Jackson. As is so frequent under these circumstances, they merely did not have sufficient information to make an accurate description and interpretation of the anatomical findings," he says, adding he is speaking out "at the written request of Katherine [Jackson] and to give a truthful legacy for Michael."

Hoefflin adds that Jackson had "an indentation of his right nose, which was not from surgery, but from a deep biopsy due to the suspicion of skin cancer." He claims, too, that Jackson had Lupus and the disease was being inflamed by "massive injections of collagen" administered to him by Dr. Arnold Klein.

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/07/76795/index.html

Well in support of the Coroner's office the ME never came out and said that MJ had a prosthetic nose did he?

Didn't that come from some other site, like a tabloid?

I recall reading last night that MJ did have skin cancer and the doctor had been burning them off in his chest area. Dang, now I cant remember where I read that.

imo

[Nic99]

1) because it is the perogative of any person to have an opinion.

2) because he lightened his skin so dramatically and altered his features so dramatically.

But everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and not to buy the pictures of the alleged vitiligo.

Everyone brings to anything their own experiences and histories and makes his/her own opinions.

1) yes it is the perogative of any person to have an opinion totally

2) he lightened his skin so dramatically to camouflage the vitiligo imo

There is no way you cannot see the obvious vitiligo in those pictures, it is a classic example of this disease imo

I bring my history with personal accounts of vitiligo and have an opinion which I believe MJ definitely suffered and the photos prove it. Vitiligo turns your skin white, it does not mean that you want to be a white person, a big difference imo.

[GentleBreeze]

1) because it is the perogative of any person to have an opinion.

2) because he lightened his skin so dramatically and altered his features so dramatically.

But everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and not to buy the pictures of the alleged vitiligo.

Everyone brings to anything their own experiences and histories and makes his/her own opinions.

I feel he had more than 50% of his face and body covered in white splotches from the Vitilio. It kept spreading. The makeup no longer worked. When it dripped off it revealed the white areas which in my opinion were becoming more pronounced.

He would depigment the darker skin because he had more stark white splotches than darker skin.

This wasn't some small liver spots or dark spot here and there imo.

imo

[daniel green]

If people would just educate themselves on the auto immune diseases MJ had they would understand nothing was done to make him look like a "white man".

snipped

Why the need to berate posters who have a differing opinion?

And, having been Dxd with an auto-immune disease myself many moons ago and having lived with it since, I don't understand the personal affront to others about how anyone "needs to educate" themselves.

As to the nose problems being caused by whatever the disease of the day is, please. Did the whole Jackson clan suffer from the same disease? Because they pretty much all have identical noses. At least the ones I know--LaToya, Janet and MJ.

There is nothing wrong with plastic surgery. I've had some myself.

But to pretend there was a need for it due to some disease is, well, disingenous at best. And just downright silly, imo.

[Nic99]

Why the need to berate posters who have a differing opinion?

And, having been Dxd with an auto-immune disease myself many moons ago and having lived with it since, I don't understand the personal affront to others about how anyone "needs to educate" themselves.

As to the nose problems being caused by whatever the disease of the day is, please. Did the whole Jackson clan suffer from the same disease? Because they pretty much all have identical noses. At least the ones I know--LaToya, Janet and MJ.

There is nothing wrong with plastic surgery. I've had some myself.

But to pretend there was a need for it due to some disease is, well, disingenous at best. And just downright silly, imo.

Hi Daniel,
I believe the reason why MJ changed his nose was solely due to his father's comments about his nose being so big when he was young and it stuck with him. I know that comments made to me when I was young, especially by my parents stuck with me, and I think he felt ugly because of his nose, because his father told him so. That is why he changed his nose by plastic surgery imo.. A father's words to a young child can really hit home and stick with you in later life imo.
Nic

[CinderL.]

Dr. Steven Hoefflin, one of Michael Jackson's former plastic surgeons, is speaking out to ET about "involuntary errors" he believes the L.A. Coroner made in its autopsy report on the late icon.

Hoefflin says he's been informed that the Coroner's office were incorrect in reporting that Jackson was wearing a nasal prosthesis and had lost his nose, leaving only two holes in its place.

"I believe that the coroner's office is profoundly competent and did a commendable job in their post-mortem examination of Michael Jackson. As is so frequent under these circumstances, they merely did not have sufficient information to make an accurate description and interpretation of the anatomical findings," he says, adding he is speaking out "at the written request of Katherine [Jackson] and to give a truthful legacy for Michael."

Hoefflin adds that Jackson had "an indentation of his right nose, which was not from surgery, but from a deep biopsy due to the suspicion of skin cancer." He claims, too, that Jackson had Lupus and the disease was being inflamed by "massive injections of collagen" administered to him by Dr. Arnold Klein.

http://www.etonline.com/news/2009/07/76795/index.html

I remember an article that I posted about the German doctor that "fixed" MJ's nose. The article said that they took a part of MJ's ear to build up his nose.

[VC2]

If people would just educate themselves on the auto immune diseases MJ had they would understand nothing was done to make him look like a "white man".

His nose is a result of septal perforation from Lupus where the cartilage collapses and affects both sides of the nose and is treated with cortecorsoids which further thins the surrounding skin. Dr. Hoefflin also said that MJ received his first plastic surgery because of a broken nose - the second time was to treat nasal septal perforation (very common in Lupus and can be confirmed by ANY lupus website) and Dr. Klein said he was even rebuilding this prior to his death. He had vitiligo over 50% of his body and depigmentaion is recommended when this occurs. Dr Strick who has NO dog in this fight examined MJ in 1993 during the JC allegations and said he had vitiligo. :shrug:

You cannot make an intelligent argument without first studying the facts. I cannot even imagine what MJ must have endured and how this affected his psyche and self-esteem and it was because of some of the very comments made here. JMHO

great post!

Not bringing this up to discuss the abuse allegations but as an example of vitiligo: what is even stranger is that the very people who believe Jordan Chandler's story of sexual abuse will say "then why did jordy know his penis was spotted" and in the next sentence deny that he had vitiligo.

I don't think jordy's knowing that has to do with abuse, its easy for guys to see each other, likely walked in when changing, or whatever. I do think it is easy proof of vitiligo, even if ppl don't want to admit the pictures. Or is someone going to tell me that he really wanted to bleach his penis white in spots?

i think some just want to make everything he did bizarre or wacko, they won't give him any ability to be a human being with medical conditions like so many others get. If they accept he had vitiligo, then they have to accept that its not funny to laugh at him using an umbrella or heavy make up.

imo

[Nic99]

great post!

Not bringing this up to discuss the abuse allegations but as an example of vitiligo: what is even stranger is that the very people who believe Jordan Chandler's story of sexual abuse will say "then why did jordy know his penis was spotted" and in the next sentence deny that he had vitiligo.

I don't think jordy's knowing that has to do with abuse, its easy for guys to see each other, likely walked in when changing, or whatever. I do think it is easy proof of vitiligo, even if ppl don't want to admit the pictures. Or is someone going to tell me that he really wanted to bleach his penis white in spots?

i think some just want to make everything he did bizarre or wacko, they won't give him any ability to be a human being with medical conditions like so many others get. If they accept he had vitiligo, then they have to accept that its not funny to laugh at him using an umbrella or heavy make up.

imo

ITA with you and it is so not funny or anything to be laughed at.

[CinderL.]

Why the need to berate posters who have a differing opinion?

And, having been Dxd with an auto-immune disease myself many moons ago and having lived with it since, I don't understand the personal affront to others about how anyone "needs to educate" themselves.

As to the nose problems being caused by whatever the disease of the day is, please. Did the whole Jackson clan suffer from the same disease? Because they pretty much all have identical noses. At least the ones I know--LaToya, Janet and MJ.

There is nothing wrong with plastic surgery. I've had some myself.

But to pretend there was a need for it due to some disease is, well, disingenous at best. And just downright silly, imo.

That must be it Daniel, the whole family suffers from the same disease. :laugh: Did the disease also affect his chin, and cheeks?

[flipflop]

1) yes it is the perogative of any person to have an opinion totally

2) he lightened his skin so dramatically to camouflage the vitiligo imo

There is no way you cannot see the obvious vitiligo in those pictures, it is a classic example of this disease imo

I bring my history with personal accounts of vitiligo and have an opinion which I believe MJ definitely suffered and the photos prove it. Vitiligo turns your skin white, it does not mean that you want to be a white person, a big difference imo.

Some people refuse to see the truth. For instance, there are people in the world who's opinion of the earth is that it is flat. Doesn't matter there is documentation to prove otherwise.

[Nic99]

Some people refuse to see the truth. For instance, there are people in the world who's opinion of the earth is that it is flat. Doesn't matter there is documentation to prove otherwise.

I don't know if you are referring to me, but assume you are, but believe me I have seen the truth of vitiligo first-hand and totally know that MJ was a sufferer. As for the earth being flat, well, you tell me...

[flipflop]

I don't know if you are referring to me, but assume you are, but believe me I have seen the truth of vitiligo first-hand and totally know that MJ was a sufferer. As for the earth being flat, well, you tell me...

No, I was not referring to you. :smile: I believe MJ had vitiligo.

ETA...oh, and for the record, I am a round earth believer, lol.

[Nic99]

No, I was not referring to you. :smile: I believe MJ had vitiligo.

Hi FlipFlop,
I assumed you were referring to my post because you quoted it. I definitely believe MJ had vitiligo and it is quite obvious to me as well imo that he did, by the pics, it is a classic example.
Nic

[Lyndawitha"Y]

---------------

And just what exactly is the truth. Please enlighten us all. jmo

Thought I'd jump in..( home from work)..It seems to me that nobody really knows the truth ( on this board)..and some believe this guy or that guy when hearing an interview..and so on..Michael..most of his adult life, never came foreward with the truth..made excuses, denied something as simple as " Plastic Surgery"...which the whole world could see for their own eyes..it was not forthcoming...I also wonder whatelse he either didnt say, or did say..and at this point..No one really knows..nor can prove it..it is their opinion..unless or until they can actually prove what they are saying...

I tend to disbelieve alot of what some of these doctors have said..as..another will come along and discount it..or claim errors..etc...

MJ..at this point is dead..for too soon..but not without cause..The fact it is taking LE so long to investigate makes it obvious..it is "Complicated"..not just any easy..He took this or that, ..suicide..murder by Doctor..Blame all messengers..as they have an agenda...

To say this is all straight forward???? NOT....However..I do enjoy peoples inputs..some I chuckle at..some I think...hummm..some I get my brain aworking...and so on...:laugh:

I really cant wait for the "Dust" to settle on this..and we can figure out just what transpired.and who else is responsible..(besides Mj himself for his excesses)...Dr.M..has alot of splaining to do to me..(not happy with what he got involved in)...of course I dont mean personally..only for me see how this man's mind (Dr. M.) worked to justify what he did...

LMS:wink:

[crazymama]

I think that those were two different things and there is no evidence anywhere that Lee administered any such thing.

She says she gave him vitamins and from her own website she claims that IV Vit C can help cancer and HIV, etc. Just about every disease.
-----
In case you didn't get an answer about Nurse Lee giving MJ an infusion.
mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/24/michael-jackson-s-desperate-pleas-for-deadly-sleep-drug-propofol-to-tackle-insomnia-115875-21543277/
Jacko begged for the drug in April when Dr James had sent
the star’s nurse Cherilyn Lee to treat him with an drip solution called Myers’ cocktail – a mix of minerals and vitamins the medic described as the IV equivalent of an extreme energy drink.
then it goes on-
Dr James refused to give Jacko the drug. But the King of Pop allegedly never gave up trying and when Cherilyn phoned him just four days before he died at the age of 50, he asked for Propofol again.

[flipflop]

Thought I'd jump in..( home from work)..It seems to me that nobody really knows the truth ( on this board)..and some believe this guy or that guy when hearing an interview..and so on..Michael..most of his adult life, never came foreward with the truth..made excuses, denied something as simple as " Plastic Surgery"...which the whole world could see for their own eyes..it was not forthcoming...I also wonder whatelse he either didnt say, or did say..and at this point..No one really knows..nor can prove it..it is their opinion..unless or until they can actually prove what they are saying...

I tend to disbelieve alot of what some of these doctors have said..as..another will come along and discount it..or claim errors..etc...

MJ..at this point is dead..for too soon..but not without cause..The fact it is taking LE so long to investigate makes it obvious..it is "Complicated"..not just any easy..He took this or that, ..suicide..murder by Doctor..Blame all messengers..as they have an agenda...

To say this is all straight forward???? NOT....However..I do enjoy peoples inputs..some I chuckle at..some I think...hummm..some I get my brain aworking...and so on...:laugh:

I really cant wait for the "Dust" to settle on this..and we can figure out just what transpired.and who else is responsible..(besides Mj himself for his excesses)...Dr.M..has alot of splaining to do to me..(not happy with what he got involved in)...of course I dont mean personally..only for me see how this man's mind (Dr. M.) worked to justify what he did...

LMS:wink:

MJ said in an interview he had vitiligo. He also said, I think in that same interview, that he had only 2 nose surgeries. The latter I do not believe. I do believe the vitiligo.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

MJ said in an interview he had vitiligo. He also said, I think in that same interview, that he had only 2 nose surgeries. The latter I do not believe. I do believe the vitiligo.


yes..I heard that interview with I think was Opra..but my point is that was very late in his career..decades after all the changes being noted..and speculated about..His surgeries..He denied...I have to asky why?..but to me it doesnt matter any more....

Between his small burn on crown of head 1984...and subsequent admitted perscription abuse..Vitiligo was the only other thing he ever really admitted...Most of his secrets are taken to his grave...but that sure wont stop others from making definitative diagnoises...He was a 50 year old man..I am sure he had many ailments..and yep..most should be private..however..in your face things..do need some sort of plausible explanation...and for the record..I dont believe he had "Lupus"..but that is only my opinion...Lupus patients are far more ill, and required alot of hospitalizations...I posted a link last night outlining the systems effected..( Skin is not he exclusive symptom)..

Anyway..have a great evening...:smile:

LMS

[who_is_it]

I remember an article that I posted about the German doctor that "fixed" MJ's nose. The article said that they took a part of MJ's ear to build up his nose.

The German doctor, Professor Mang, is always much out on publicity and likes to have a reputation as plastic surgeon of the stars.

Over years there were always stories about MJ's nose as if his nose was the center of the universe.

I've never seen MJ in person but there must have been something magic and attractive about his aura what is more decisive than his nose imo. Many celebrities described his aura as "magic". By his few stage appearances* during the last years he captivated the audience / guests -- caused mass hysteria.

* WMA 2006, tour announcement, Christian Audigier's birthday

[who_is_it]

MJ said in an interview he had vitiligo. He also said, I think in that same interview, that he had only 2 nose surgeries. The latter I do not believe. I do believe the vitiligo.

He said in the Bashir interview that he only had 2 nose jobs. He went on in the same interview that "everybody in entertainment business" had plastic surgery. True. I believe 95% of all celebs over 25 had.

It's amazing why all the (imo) ugly tennis ball cheek implants and AA chest implants -- looking totally plastic -- are never discussed but MJ's plastic surgery is.

[who_is_it]

Oh I believe he may have had plastic surgery on his nose for non-medical reasons; however I do also believe that the way it has looked in recent years was a result of his illness not additional plastic surgery. I sincerely believe he had a problem with having what was described in his own words as a "big nose". JMO

He confirmed in interviews that his father poked fun at him for his nose and akne. Imo all his plastic surgery was an attempt to overcome this painful rejection for his looks -- an attempt to be loved.

[who_is_it]

Dr. Hoefflin disputed Mang's allegations. Also please note that Daphne Barak reported the interview with Mang and she sold the story to a tabloid.

<snipped>
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/jackson.s%20surgeon%20denies%20working%20on%20nose

Typical "Mang" imo; it fits into the picture that he promoted his name by this story in the tabloids. Even some German doctors joke about him because he's known as a fame ** and too expensive.

[daniel green]

That must be it Daniel, the whole family suffers from the same disease. :laugh: Did the disease also affect his chin, and cheeks?

No kidding. The chin, cheeks, forehead, eyebrows, eyes, all done and all because of some condition?

[who_is_it]

You mean its not like that in Germany?

danke.

Plastic surgery still isn't as accepted as in the US or other European countries like for example Italy. But the acceptance increases steadily.

Furthermore the beauty standards are a bit different. This cheek implant thing isn't popular here.

[daniel green]

snipped Vitiligo turns your skin white, it does not mean that you want to be a white person, a big difference imo.

In spots. Not all over.

As per the Ntl Vitiligo Foundation info I posted yesteday, total depigmintation is not the preferred treatment.

[daniel green]

Thought I'd jump in..( home from work)..It seems to me that nobody really knows the truth ( on this board)..and some believe this guy or that guy when hearing an interview..and so on..Michael..most of his adult life, never came foreward with the truth..made excuses, denied something as simple as " Plastic Surgery"...which the whole world could see for their own eyes..it was not forthcoming...I also wonder whatelse he either didnt say, or did say..and at this point..No one really knows..nor can prove it..it is their opinion..unless or until they can actually prove what they are saying...

snipped:

Exactly!!!

He told so many lies about his appearance, that it is very difficult to believe anything he said about it. Same goes for his docs.

[who_is_it]

What kind of person would summon a young son to watch his father die? I was actually hoping this was tabloid fodder :cursing:


In an interview with the Associated Press, Kai Chase said she saw no evidence that Jackson was abusing prescription drugs. She said that Dr. Conrad Murray, who is the subject of a manslaughter investigation related to Jackson's death, often carried oxygen tanks out of Jackson's bedroom. But she said she didn't know what the tanks were for. Authorities are investigating whether prescription drugs played a role in Jackson's death.

"I started preparing the lunch and then I looked at my cellphone and it was noon. About 12:05 or 12:10 Dr. Murray runs down the steps and screams, 'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud. I run into the den where the kids are playing. Prince (Jackson's oldest son) runs to meet Dr. Murray and from that point on you could feel the energy in the house change.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/michael-jacksons-chef-describes-dramatic-moments-before-pop-star-died-.html

The blog entry says:
"In an interview with the Associated Press, Kai Chase said she saw no evidence that Jackson was abusing prescription drugs."

I'm attached to the word "evidence" if she means literally "evidence" (= she didn't see any drugs around the house but had the impression he does drugs, though) or if she perceived him not as a drug abuser at all.

[CinderL.]

He said in the Bashir interview that he only had 2 nose jobs. He went on in the same interview that "everybody in entertainment business" had plastic surgery. True. I believe 95% of all celebs over 25 had.

It's amazing why all the (imo) ugly tennis ball cheek implants and AA chest implants -- looking totally plastic -- are never discussed but MJ's plastic surgery is.

I would guess because this is the MJ forum. We did talk about others like the cat lady awhile ago.

[daniel green]

It is if you are covered with more than 50% of your skin:

BACKGROUND:
It is a rare event that a patient with vitiligo inquires about the option of depigmentation. The usual course of action I take when I see a patient for the first time who has extensive vitiligo — more than 50 percent loss of pigment of the exposed areas including the hands, arms, and face — is repigmentation. snipped

[B]The usual course of action I take [B]when I see a patient for the first time who has extensive vitiligo of more than 50 percent loss of pigment of the exposed areas including the hands, arms, and face — is repigmentation.

REpigimentation is usual course.

However, as this has nothing to do with the topic of his death, I won't keep talking about it.

Unless there is some evidence in the autopsy that MJ had, in fact, vitiligo, I would never believe it.

[daniel green]

My husband has an old VHS of "Motown 25" - the TV special. It was the first time MJ sang "Billie Jean" and at that time only had one nose job. He was adorable and brilliant.

Sadly, he only went downhill from there.

imo

My older two daughters and I were watching MSNBC the night that MJ died, or a couple nights later, and they showed a compilation of his various appearances, and we remarked the same thing. Had he only stopped there, with the remaking of his face/skin/etc.

My older 3 and I saw him in concert two-3 yrs after that Motown special, and he was utterly brilliant.

[daniel green]

Does anyone know, offhand, if MJ's will, where he says that Diana Ross should get the kids in the even his mother cannot, was written before or after Ross' many problems with alcohol, DWI, etc?

TIA

[Zenyatta]

Exactly!!!

He told so many lies about his appearance, that it is very difficult to believe anything he said about it. Same goes for his docs.

Good afternoon Daniel Green,

It has crossed my mind that some of these Doctors, namely Dr. Klein, might be exaggerating Michael's conditions (i.e. Lupus) in order to justify all of the treatments they've given him over the years. Especially since 19 Doctors are reportedly under investigation for whatever their role is in prescribing drugs to Michael.

I want to thank you, retired cop, and disneyfreak for all of the information on Cherilyn Lee. I admit that I initially fell for her.

Some things she said last night about the coroner's comments gave me pause, and -- voila -- you guys arrive just in the nick of time with all of your research. Much appreciated.

My personal pet peeve? Ph Ds who put Doctor in front of their names. "Dr. Bill Cosby" just strikes me as funny. But Dr. Cherilyn Lee?

http://www.nutrimedhealthcare.com/DrLee.htm

I think it's a little misleading. She is in health care, and, a first glance, someone might actually believe she is a full fledged Doctor of medicine.

Doing prostrate exams. :laugh:

imo

[who_is_it]

copyright AP
Jackson's chef remembers role of personal doctor, praying with children on day singer died
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hitISYixOv_DC0ABZeYzc6dg2BDAD99OCNBG0

It's the original source of what Athena posted.

The article says Dr. Murray always went up to Michael at around 9:00 or 9:30 pm. Makes no sense to me. -- As I recall he was always rehearsing in the evenings. Furthermore it's known that he didn't go to bed early.

I find it interesting, too, that she said the doc didn't come down in the morning to get MJ's juices as usually. Imo it could become important for the investigation what time this usually was (--> death time much earlier?).

[CinderL.]

My older two daughters and I were watching MSNBC the night that MJ died, or a couple nights later, and they showed a compilation of his various appearances, and we remarked the same thing. Had he only stopped there, with the remaking of his face/skin/etc.

My older 3 and I saw him in concert two-3 yrs after that Motown special, and he was utterly brilliant.

Here is a site that has pictures of the changes in MJ. WARNING...if you are a big fan don't read the print....you won't like it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

[who_is_it]

Does anyone know, offhand, if MJ's will, where he says that Diana Ross should get the kids in the even his mother cannot, was written before or after Ross' many problems with alcohol, DWI, etc?

TIA

Diana Ross was arrested for DUI in 2002, the will was made in the same year.

[daniel green]

Good afternoon Daniel Green,

It has crossed my mind that some of these Doctors, namely Dr. Klein, might be exaggerating Michael's conditions (i.e. Lupus) in order to justify all of the treatments they've given him over the years. Especially since 19 Doctors are reportedly under investigation for whatever their role is in prescribing drugs to Michael.

snipped
My personal pet peeve? Ph Ds who put Doctor in front of their names. "Dr. Bill Cosby" just strikes me as funny. But Dr. Cherilyn Lee?

http://www.nutrimedhealthcare.com/DrLee.htm

I think it's a little misleading. She is in health care, and, a first glance, someone might actually believe she is a full fledged Doctor of medicine.

Doing prostrate exams. :laugh:

imo

YEP!!!!!!! That's how it seems to me, as well. That they exagerate and shade and, frankly, lie about the conditions (as if they should be speaking about them at all, period) in order to do just that--explain away their own giving him scripts like they were confetti.

And, yeah, that always seems a bit, well, of self-agrandisement to put the Dr if front of one's name for a PhD.

She is no Dr in medicine anymore than she is a PA.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The blog entry says:
"In an interview with the Associated Press, Kai Chase said she saw no evidence that Jackson was abusing prescription drugs."

I'm attached to the word "evidence" if she means literally "evidence" (= she didn't see any drugs around the house but had the impression he does drugs, though) or if she perceived him not as a drug abuser at all.

I would have to assume it means..she didnt see Mj take any meds...and I am not surprised...I am most certain MJ didnt run around his house..popping pills infront of everbody...After all..perscription drug abusers arent like what is depicted on the TV series "House"!!

All we know at this stage..he had two pills in his stomach at the time of autopsy..what they were no one knows...for all we know they were herbal medications..((hummming..maybe??) ..

Having said that..maybe someone should ask this story person..Have you ever seen him extremely tired?..or slurring his words?..or behaving unusual?...answers may be much different:confused:...then again she might have been told "MJ is extemely tired"..yepppp..WHO knows what really went on?? truthfully???

LMS

BTW..I am smiling at the term EMT's used "Hallyalulla Package"..Is that like a hail Mary move???..

[daniel green]

LOL -- so now you don't want to talk about it?

Repigmentation generally FAILS especially in patients with over 50% of their body.
snipped

From your link from the Ntl Vitiligo folks, to whom I linked yesterday as well:

The usual course of action I take when I see a patient for the first time who has extensive vitiligo of more than 50 percent loss of pigment of the exposed areas including the hands, arms, and face is repigmentation. But if repigmentation techniques fail, we should consider depigmentation. Even after we have been unsuccessful in repigmenting their skin with PUVA and topical steroids, patients are sometimes still reluctant to undergo depigmentation.

Discussing the same thing ad infinitum might be of interest, but it is not on topic, and, frankly, nobody is going to change his/her mind, unless the autopsy reports state one way or another.

[daniel green]

Here is a site that has pictures of the changes in MJ. WARNING...if you are a big fan don't read the print....you won't like it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

1984.

If he had not done anything else after 1984. :sad:

The site does have something in it I had not thought of. Depigmintation, once done, is IT. And MJ turned lighter and lighter and lighter and lighter through the yrs. Another reason why I do not believe it.

And they make an excellent point, had MJ had vitiligo, what a shame that he did not choose to speak about it and to help fund research for it, etc.

[who_is_it]

I would have to assume it means..she didnt see Mj take any meds...and I am not surprised...I am most certain MJ didnt run around his house..popping pills infront of everbody...After all..perscription drug abusers arent like what is depicted on the TV series "House"!!

All we know at this stage..he had two pills in his stomach at the time of autopsy..what they were no one knows...for all we know they were herbal medications..((hummming..maybe??) ..

Having said that..maybe someone should ask this story person..Have you ever seen him extremely tired?..or slurring his words?..or behaving unusual?...answers may be much different:confused:...then again she might have been told "MJ is extemely tired"..yepppp..WHO knows what really went on?? truthfully???

LMS

BTW..I am smiling at the term EMT's used "Hallyalulla Package"..Is that like a hail Mary move???..

Yes, most addicts hide their addiction.

I agree, questions which address his behavior would maybe bring out more revealing answers.

[who_is_it]

1984.

If he had not done anything else after 1984. :sad:

The site does have something in it I had not thought of. Depigmintation, once done, is IT. And MJ turned lighter and lighter and lighter and lighter through the yrs. Another reason why I do not believe it.

And they make an excellent point, had MJ had vitiligo, what a shame that he did not choose to speak about it and to help fund research for it, etc.

He DID speak about it.

"I have a skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It’s something that I can’t help. People make up stories that I don’t want to be who I am. It hurts me."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8121209.stm

[daniel green]

When I said "speak about it" I meant as a spokesperson. Call it by its name. Talk about it, in order to help others. You know.

[CinderL.]

1984.

If he had not done anything else after 1984. :sad:

The site does have something in it I had not thought of. Depigmintation, once done, is IT. And MJ turned lighter and lighter and lighter and lighter through the yrs. Another reason why I do not believe it.

And they make an excellent point, had MJ had vitiligo, what a shame that he did not choose to speak about it and to help fund research for it, etc.

I agree. He looked very good in 1984. I also agree with that he could have done a lot to help the other people that have this disease.

[daniel green]

Katherine Jackson's lawyer is making noise that Michael Jackson's will may not be valid because it wasn't notarized. That's simply not the case. Katherine's lawyer, Londell McMillan, issued a statement referring to a "suspicious circle of relationships" and an "unnotarized will." But here's the deal. In California, a will does not have to be notarized to be valid. In fact, most formal wills are not notarized.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/jackson-will-no-notarization-no-problem/

[daniel green]

I agree. He looked very good in 1984. snipped

And as the site at the link said, he was funny and charming and fun--not at all whiney or being a victim. Very, very sad.

[daniel green]

We've learned L.A. County Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter just arrived at the Beverly Hills medical office of Dr. Lawrence Koplin, subpoena in hand. We've learned Winter is on the hunt for Michael Jackson medical files. We're told Winter is interested in the records of the nurse anesthetist in the office -- David Fournier. We're told Dr. Arnold Klein performed procedures on Jackson in Dr. Koplin's office and Fournier administered anesthesia. UPDATE: Winter has just left and he confirmed he is "still looking for medical records involving Michael Jackson."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/coroner-ed-winter-michael-jackson-lawrence-koplin-subpoena/

[daniel green]

One more thing about Lee. Remember her story about how the LAPD just wanted her to fax her records but she is a health care professional so she can't and they came to get them instead?

On LKL the other night. Interview transcript linked a couple days ago.

They flat out asked her what "records" they took and she said it was the statement about MJ wanting diprovan.

Should have known right then it was malarkey, about the "medical records."

No wonder the LAPD just wanted her to fax her statement to them. :rolleyes:

[CinderL.]

Imo He erased all evidence of his race. I simply believe he absolutely hated himself, the way he looked. His nose and the mutillation of it is a perfect example. He went way overboard trying to erase it. I have no doubt he did the same thing to his skin...imo

He sure seemed to go overboard with everything. With the vitiligo, if using a little cream the way the Dr.'s prescribed worked, use a lot more. The same with the plastic surgery. The same with the shopping. Why buy only one urn, or whatever, if you can buy 30. He was excessive with everything. IMO

[who_is_it]

And as the site at the link said, he was funny and charming and fun--not at all whiney or being a victim. Very, very sad.

But what the rehearsal video showed he was standing there upright again and held his head up -- more confident body language than the years before.

@ "whiney and being a victim": Imagine our discussion wasn't about him but about your or my looks and you or I would read it. Can you imagine HOW MUCH this hurts? And how much more it would hurt if the world wide press prints stuff like this and all over the web pics with jokes emerge? I would die of pain, I think.

[VC2]

REpigimentation is usual course.

However, as this has nothing to do with the topic of his death, I won't keep talking about it.

Unless there is some evidence in the autopsy that MJ had, in fact, vitiligo, I would never believe it.

:ohmy: you are smarter than that Daniel! All the evidence has pointed to vitiligo for years including photographic, the prosecutors physician and more. It is not an uncommon disease either.

As far as repigmentation goes, for over 50% of the body, the mayo clinic only mentions depigmentation. Repigmentation they mention for vitiligo that is caught early.


Depigmentation. Depigmentation may be an option for you if you have vitiligo that covers more than half of your skin. Depigmentation therapy lightens the unaffected parts of your skin to match the areas that have already turned white. For this treatment, you apply a medication called monobenzene ether of hydroquinone twice a day to the areas of your skin that still have pigment. Treatment continues until the darker areas of your skin match the already-depigmented areas.

Redness and swelling are potential side effects of depigmentation therapy, and you have to be careful to avoid skin-to-skin contact with other people for at least two hours after you've applied the drug, so you don't transfer it to them. Other potential side effects include itching and dry skin.
Depigmentation is permanent and will make you extremely sensitive to sunlight permanently.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitiligo/ds00586/dsection=treatments-and-drugs

plus do you think Michael wanted to have a freaking umbrella and hat on at all times out of doors? There are lots of things an entertainer might want as a gimmick but that is way to much of an annoyance. I am not sure why you think the child lied, the prosecutions physician who examined him lied and so many others.

As far as him not talking about it, MJ has always been a very private person when it comes to his day to day personal life. For example you rarely rarely heard or saw the kids except on a few occasions, knew nothing about their likes/dislikes etc. Michael answered the question on Oprah about vitiligo because there were so many ugly nasty rumors about his glove and his skin and makeup but almost never brought it up again publicly afterwards. Understandable since people with the disease feel self conscious, add to it the fact he already had bad self image problems.

IMO

eta and the surgical therapies may have been tried, that would explain the references to minor surgeries. blistering and autologous skin grafts. As a public figure imo its obvious that if they didn't work right away then MJ would go for depigmentation.

[VC2]

What kind of person would summon a young son to watch his father die? I was actually hoping this was tabloid fodder :cursing:


In an interview with the Associated Press, Kai Chase said she saw no evidence that Jackson was abusing prescription drugs. She said that Dr. Conrad Murray, who is the subject of a manslaughter investigation related to Jackson's death, often carried oxygen tanks out of Jackson's bedroom. But she said she didn't know what the tanks were for. Authorities are investigating whether prescription drugs played a role in Jackson's death.

"I started preparing the lunch and then I looked at my cellphone and it was noon. About 12:05 or 12:10 Dr. Murray runs down the steps and screams, 'Go get Prince!' He's screaming very loud. I run into the den where the kids are playing. Prince (Jackson's oldest son) runs to meet Dr. Murray and from that point on you could feel the energy in the house change.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/michael-jacksons-chef-describes-dramatic-moments-before-pop-star-died-.html

that is so disgusting.

I am beginning to come around to the idea that he died 3 hours earlier and Murray spent the time getting records removed, panicking and trying to figure out what to do. The reason i had not believed it earlier is that 3 hours is going to have cooled the body down to the point EMT's would know it was not only hopeless but the report would go to the coroner. Now we know the room was stifling hot, wonder if murray turned up the heat to keep the skin temp warm.

imo

ETA lynda, how long would it take before a body started to break down internally with the heat? I mean it would obviously keep the skin "normal' to the touch but would there be evidence upon autopsy of organ breakdown beginning?

[who_is_it]

that is so disgusting.

I am beginning to come around to the idea that he died 3 hours earlier and Murray spent the time getting records removed, panicking and trying to figure out what to do. The reason i had not believed it earlier is that 3 hours is going to have cooled the body down to the point EMT's would know it was not only hopeless but the report would go to the coroner. Now we know the room was stifling hot, wonder if murray turned up the heat to keep the skin temp warm.

imo

In the AP interview by Kay Chave is mentioned Murray didn't come down to the kitchen to get MJ's juice as he usually did. It would be interesting to know the time when he usually went to the kitchen. At this time he probably was dead already.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't understand how anyone can consider her credible after visiting her website and reading her claims of having a PhD!

At first, I believed she was credible...she sure sounded like it. However, when someone uses a diploma mill to obtain a Ph.D...kinda calls everything she says into question. imo

How does that call into question what she has said?

ETA: Has anyone come out and disputed what she has said about MJ?

imo

[kellabeck]

Don't you have to be alive to get this award

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=79923
Nobel Peace Prize for Michael Jackson ? - Fans Start Online Petition

I predicted this.
I was being sarcastic. But still, I was right.

[Unperson1984]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/jackson-will-no-notarization-no-problem/

I am surprised they would imply a problem with the validity of the Will. If it were to be declared that MJ died intestate I seriously doubt Katherine would receive 40%, in fact the court would likely award everything to the children. Parents of adult children are not the next of kin if there is a surviving spouse or children.

[daniel green]

Imo He erased all evidence of his race. I simply believe he absolutely hated himself, the way he looked. His nose and the mutillation of it is a perfect example. He went way overboard trying to erase it. I have no doubt he did the same thing to his skin...imo

And gender, as well.

[GentleBreeze]

a few spots on his genitalia and hand hardly necessitates total obliteration of his skin color. imo

It wasn't just on those areas.

The photos speak for themselves and even TM said he had white splotches all on his back.

You can tell it on his legs, face, neck, chest and his arms at the very end of his long sleeved shirt and hands.

imo

[daniel green]

:ohmy: you are smarter than that Daniel! All the evidence has pointed to vitiligo for years including photographic, the prosecutors physician and more. It is not an uncommon disease either.

snipped.

I have not kept up with MJ through the years, I am expressing my opinion, that he did not have vitiligo.

I am even willing to say, OK, for the sake of argument, he did. How, then, did his skin get lighter and lighter and lighter through the yrs? Because with depigmintation, once you get rid of the pigment, that is it. Not a progressive thing over years.

As I have said, if it were just one thing. But in context of how he changed his face and body through the years it is not difficult to understand why ppl doubt the vitiligo Dx.

[GentleBreeze]

Have you read her website?

I'm not claiming she lied about what she claims MJ said....what I am saying, I can't believe her..her ridiculous credentials scream FRAUD to me. ANYONE that would go to such extremes in order to feel important, or scam people out of money, I have to wonder what else they'd be willing to do.

Yes, I have, but it is totally irrelevant to what she has said on tv about MJ. Not one person has called in to refute one thing she said or even appeared to rebuke her. Not one person has said she isn't truthful.

That is what is relevant to me and I have found her extremely credible. She was the first to mention diprivan before it was ever mentioned by anyone else, iirc. Imo, she speaks the truth.

She is not the first one to embellish their CV but she has had no complaints against her since becoming a RN in 1982.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I just supplied a link to interviews with various people who say MJ had vitiliogo. Doesn't matter -- they just want to believe what they want.
EVERYONE else - doctors, friends, make-up artist, biographer, etc. that has confirmed that MJ had vitiligo is lying. :rolleyes: JMO

Well at least we get a glimpse of what MJ went through when he told the truth about Vitilio and people refused to believe the truth even though it was there plain as day to see.

At least now he is at peace and doesnt have to suffer from the pain and anguish this caused him for so many years.



imo

[who_is_it]

And gender, as well.

Nowadays is beauty is standardized. By his somehow transsexual looks and other changes he transcended the standards for looks. His looks conveyed a message to a diversity of groups: men, women, the ones who loved his appearance and the ones who loved to hate it.

Specially the last group always got its confirmation: "I'm more standard, I'm more normal."

[who_is_it]

Did you watch the interviews that I just supplied a link to? There has not been one person who has disproven that he had vitiligo and more that say he had it over 50% of his body than not and the medical literature and HIS doctors support it. I'm done! :huh:

I watched it. What happened to Karen Faye? Was she still his make up artist?

[kellabeck]

Here is a site that has pictures of the changes in MJ. WARNING...if you are a big fan don't read the print....you won't like it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

But Michael said he only had two -- TWO -- surgeries on his nose and none-- NONE -- on his face.

"Who do you believe-- me or your lying eyes?"

[CinderL.]

But Michael said he only had two -- TWO -- surgeries on his nose and none-- NONE -- on his face.

"Who do you believe-- me or your lying eyes?"

Ha, I am not quite believing MJ on this. :laugh:

[daniel green]

http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2003/04/orth200304

I have always found Orth's accounts absolutely fascinating, and horrifying.

[daniel green]

But Michael said he only had two -- TWO -- surgeries on his nose and none-- NONE -- on his face.

"Who do you believe-- me or your lying eyes?"

And one because he broke it!

That's the truth!

[daniel green]

"his doctors" are you KIDDING ME??????????????

For real. :tongueside:

[sunstar]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/coroner-ed-winter-michael-jackson-lawrence-koplin-subpoena/

Very interesting! :read:

[GentleBreeze]

Imo He erased all evidence of his race. I simply believe he absolutely hated himself, the way he looked. His nose and the mutillation of it is a perfect example. He went way overboard trying to erase it. I have no doubt he did the same thing to his skin...imo

I don't think so. He was always a proud black man.

I think he did the best he could under the most traumatic of circumstances by having to deal with Vitilio and Discoid Lupus.

In his photos right before he died he looked more like MJ from yesteryear. I think at one time he wanted to look like Peter Pan but then realized when he got his 02 tour that people wanted to see the MJ they had loved before so he did small things to help him achieve that. Imo, he looked quite nice just days before he died.

imo

[CinderL.]

I don't think so. He was always a proud black man.

I think he did the best he could under the most traumatic of circumstances by having to deal with Vitilio and Discoid Lupus.

In his photos right before he died he looked more like MJ from yesteryear. I think at one time he wanted to look like Peter Pan but then realized when he got his 02 tour that people wanted to see the MJ they had loved before so he did small things to help him achieve that. Imo, he looked quite nice just days before he died.

imo

I agree that he looked better in his final days. I don't agree that he did the best he could with his conditions. I have friends and family that have both of these conditions. They deal with it. And we all know people who have had horrible upbringings, horrible diseases, and they deal with it. MJ had money enough that he didn't have to deal with life. IMO. I know this doesn't have anything to do with anything. I just get tired of hearing "poor" Michael...he had a mean dad, had lupus, had vitiligo. ETC.

[GentleBreeze]

But Michael said he only had two -- TWO -- surgeries on his nose and none-- NONE -- on his face.

"Who do you believe-- me or your lying eyes?"

So what? Name me one star that comes out and gives the exact amount of plastic surgeries they have had?

And where do these people get off thinking it is their business anyway?

Did they pay for the surgeries?

What others do cosmetically and pay for is absolutely no one's business anyway.

imo

[CinderL.]

So what? Name me one star that comes out and gives the exact amount of plastic surgeries they have had?

And where do these people get off thinking it is their business anyway?

Did they pay for the surgeries?

What others do cosmetically and pay for is absolutely no one's business anyway.

imo

It isn't our business except for the fact that this is the MJ forum, and his ever changing looks over the years is open for speculation, just as his lupus, vitiligo, his children, will, family etc. is open for discussion. I believe there is only one topic that is off the table. Although there has been discussion about intimate parts of his body in relation to the vitiligo. I myself found that discussion intrusive.

[GentleBreeze]

I agree that he looked better in his final days. I don't agree that he did the best he could with his conditions. I have friends and family that have both of these conditions. They deal with it. And we all know people who have had horrible upbringings, horrible diseases, and they deal with it. MJ had money enough that he didn't have to deal with life. IMO. I know this doesn't have anything to do with anything. I just get tired of hearing "poor" Michael...he had a mean dad, had lupus, had vitiligo. ETC.

I am sorry you feel that way, Cinder but I will always give my compassion and heartfelt sympathy to anyone that has had to go through these things that most assuredly lowers their self esteem causing them extreme emotional and physical pain, including MJ. Not MJ the superstar, although I do think that did compounded the tragedy because he was like a fish in a fish bowl, but for MJ the human being.

And why shouldn't we have sympathy for someone who was abused by their father when they were a child growing up? I really don't understand why MJ is to be excluded.

imo

[VC2]

http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2003/04/orth200304

I have always found Orth's accounts absolutely fascinating, and horrifying.

Maureen Orth is as bad as Diane Dimond. When she wrote about the trial she lied just as much as DD did about what happened in it, has had a case for him for years.

I was stunned when i heard she was Tims wife. I lost all respect for her during the trial and aftermath, absolutely zero credibility when discussing the case or michael jackson

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

-----------

I've come to learn that links mean nothing......the only thing i can see is that when someone expresses their own opinion, then someone comes along with another opinion and supplies a link to try and make the person see it the way they want. Links don't mean a thing. jmo

No they don't, especially when the person refuses to read them.

imo

[VC2]

"his doctors" are you KIDDING ME??????????????

how about the prosecutions doctor? did they lie for MJ as well?

[CinderL.]

I am sorry you feel that way, Cinder but I will always give my compassion and heartfelt sympathy to anyone that has had to go through these things that most assuredly lowers their self esteem causing them extreme emotional and physical pain, including MJ. Not MJ the superstar, although I do think that did compounded the tragedy because he was like a fish in a fish bowl, but for MJ the human being.

And why shouldn't we have sympathy for someone who was abused by their father when they were a child growing up? I really don't understand why MJ is to be excluded.

imo

I am not saying I don't have sympathy for MJ, just as I do anyone that has problems of any kind. I just don't go along with the blame everything on what has happened in his life. His dad, his conditions, etc. He had the money to get help of the good kind, not Dr.'s, and a group of people who were willing to do whatever MJ wanted. Someone needed to tell him to get on with his life, with all of the bad, and the good. IMO

[who_is_it]

Something I've found about Frank DiLeo, his early and late manager and longterm friend:

"But Dileo never had hard feelings. In fact, during Jackson's 2005 trial, Dileo went to L.A. on his own dime to be with Michael and offer support. Here's Dileo proclaiming Jackson's innocence on Fox News (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lzd7MWl4jY).
And that loyalty paid off, when Jackson asked Dileo to take over as his manager earlier this year. Dileo had been spending time in Los Angeles working with Jackson to prepare for the London shows when Jackson died."

http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/pitw/2009/06/a_word_from_frank_dileo_michae.php

He's soooooooooo right. In the Fox interview (first link) he said: "Some media had no mercy. They forgot he's a human being."

[VC2]

It wasn't just on those areas.

The photos speak for themselves and even TM said he had white splotches all on his back.

You can tell it on his legs, face, neck, chest and his arms at the very end of his long sleeved shirt and hands.

imo

yep gentle. The only reason i brought up the other area is because many of the same people who insist they believe Jordy Chandler and use his description of it as some sort of proof are insisting he did not have vitiligo.

However the pictures, often taken by paps, not posed, show how extensive it was. I still don't get why people won't believe it. Its not as if it has a thing to do with an excuse for plastic surgery or something like cinder suggested, it doesn't make him more or less responsible for a painkiller abuse addiction. It does explain some of the oddities like an umbrella or hat at all times but otherwise its just a fact, he had vitiligo. people are working so hard to deny it, not sure what they think he gains by having it or people who believe it gain. It simply explains a couple of things that many looked at as an eccentricity. perhaps the people in the world who insist he did not are afraid that if they drop the "he tried to turn himself white" meme that people won't hate him enough? It is as if they have to keep it up and look at the vitiligo as some sort of weapon for them. Just read some blogs and its really unbelievable.

IMO

[CinderL.]

yep gentle. The only reason i brought up the other area is because many of the same people who insist they believe Jordy Chandler and use his description of it as some sort of proof are insisting he did not have vitiligo.

However the pictures, often taken by paps, not posed, show how extensive it was. I still don't get why people won't believe it. Its not as if it has a thing to do with an excuse for plastic surgery or something like cinder suggested, it doesn't make him more or less responsible for a painkiller abuse addiction. It does explain some of the oddities like an umbrella or hat at all times but otherwise its just a fact, he had vitiligo. people are working so hard to deny it, not sure what they think he gains by having it or people who believe it gain. It simply explains a couple of things that many looked at as an eccentricity. perhaps the people in the world who insist he did not are afraid that if they drop the "he tried to turn himself white" meme that people won't hate him enough? It is as if they have to keep it up and look at the vitiligo as some sort of weapon for them. Just read some blogs and its really unbelievable.

IMO

No, the Lupus has been brought up as an excuse for the plastic surgery. I do believe he had vitiligo. I just don't excuse his drug use because of the lupus, vitiligo, bad dad, etc. I think he was just excessive in his life in all respects, because he could be. Unfortunately his excesses killed him. He had three beautiful children, potential millions, IMO he needed to get his act together for them. He didn't.

[VC2]

Something I've found about Frank DiLeo, his early and late manager and longterm friend:

"But Dileo never had hard feelings. In fact, during Jackson's 2005 trial, Dileo went to L.A. on his own dime to be with Michael and offer support. Here's Dileo proclaiming Jackson's innocence on Fox News (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lzd7MWl4jY).
And that loyalty paid off, when Jackson asked Dileo to take over as his manager earlier this year. Dileo had been spending time in Los Angeles working with Jackson to prepare for the London shows when Jackson died."

http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/pitw/2009/06/a_word_from_frank_dileo_michae.php

He's soooooooooo right. In the Fox interview (first link) he said: "Some media had no mercy. They forgot he's a human being."

This is one of the reasons that it was such good news he brought DiLeo and Branca and the other guy back in. They always had his best interests in mind, as well as having impeccable reputations. Unlike the leeches of recent years. Also why i feel he was getting himself together not spiralling further down at the time of his death.

JMO

[Zenyatta]

I so agree with this guy

"Given enough immunization in the form of wealth and celebrity, a person is free to relieve the tormenting pressures of his or her fantasy world in the sort of floridly eccentric, boundary-violating ways that would never be tolerated from people in more ordinary circumstances, who are subject to more stringent societal constrictions (or, as may be the case, safeguards)."


http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9588/

5 gold stars for you. I think the guy nailed it. Right down to the body dysmorphic disorder.

imo

[who_is_it]

This is one of the reasons that it was such good news he brought DiLeo and Branca and the other guy back in. They always had his best interests in mind, as well as having impeccable reputations. Unlike the leeches of recent years. Also why i feel he was getting himself together not spiralling further down at the time of his death.

JMO

This is the most tragical imo... -- he finally got himself together..., then had to die.

I also have a good impression of Kenny Ortega and Randy Philips. They both appear to be decent, nice people -- no leeches and no fame hungry predators.

[VC2]

What? I think you need to go back and re-read my posts.

I believe MJ had a few spots...in intimate places and probably his hand. I do not believe he had it on over 50% of his body. I think he went to Dr. Klein or some other dermetologist that may have told him about benoquin...or while researching he heard about it and went absolutely WILD with it. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it for now.

I do not believe he had lupus.

Although any part of your body may be affected by vitiligo, depigmentation usually develops first on sun-exposed areas of your skin, such as your hands, feet, arms, face and lips. Although it can start at any age, vitiligo often first appears between the ages of 10 and 30. Vitiligo generally appears in one of three patterns:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitiligo/DS00586/DSECTION=symptoms

we will disagree on the vitiligo.

lupus i believe he had but there is no obvious evidence for it, so am quite prepared to be wrong on that one

[Zenyatta]

No, the Lupus has been brought up as an excuse for the plastic surgery. I do believe he had vitiligo. I just don't excuse his drug use because of the lupus, vitiligo, bad dad, etc. I think he was just excessive in his life in all respects, because he could be. Unfortunately his excesses killed him. He had three beautiful children, potential millions, IMO he needed to get his act together for them. He didn't.

Very well said. imo.

[CinderL.]

Yeah...he got himself so together...that he died... :eyeroll:

Exactly, and I think that is what makes me angry. Not just for MJ, but ANS, and all of the "stars" that actually have the money to change their lives. Not like the street drug users. They don't stand a chance. But, these people have every opportunity to get the help they need. They also surround themselves with "yes" people who do whatever they want. It is sad that his children weren't enough for him to want to change his life.
I am very glad for his kids that he brought the original attnys. back in, in time.

[CinderL.]

If anyone is interested PrimeTime is doing a special 10PM EST ABC:

Description:

With the latest developments in MJ's death investigators take a look at celebrity drug use and the doctors who enable them, as well as why it is so difficult to prosecute the doctors for the outcome of their patients' drug binges.

See ya all later :seeya:

With the ANS case going to trial, and now MJ, I think this is all going to change. Dr.'s are now put on notice, plus the people who "work" for these "stars". They just might have second thoughts about providing drugs in excess to anyone who is "famous".

[who_is_it]

I so agree with this guy

"Given enough immunization in the form of wealth and celebrity, a person is free to relieve the tormenting pressures of his or her fantasy world in the sort of floridly eccentric, boundary-violating ways that would never be tolerated from people in more ordinary circumstances, who are subject to more stringent societal constrictions (or, as may be the case, safeguards)."


http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9588/

I couldn't disagree more.

Firstly his change of look wasn't boundary-violating in a way that it hurt anybody. Secondly who sets the standards and boundaries for "normality" and who says this standard is better than another?

The author says "it would never be tolerated in more ordinary circumstances"... but I claim opposite: In "ordinary circumstances" there are no trashy media which fuel the offense. About people who are reachable in person you would never talk the same derogative way like about a celebrity. If you talked about friends, colleagues etc. as vile as about a celebrity it would boomerang: Others would say you run people down, have no heart etc. Someone who constantly makes malicious remarks isn't welcome.

[Zenyatta]

This statement gave me chills:

//snip//
In a July 24 interview, Dr. Deepak Chopra, a celebrity physician and close friend of Jackson, said that the pop star may have even once hinted to him that he had abused the drug.

"On one occasion ... he said to me, 'Deepak, did you know there's something that takes you right to the edge, to the valley of death and it brings you back. Do you know anything about it?' And at that time I had never even thought of Diprivan or this anesthetic," Chopra told Chris Connelly in an ABC News Nightline interview.

"Well that's now in hindsight, that's Diprivan, isn't it? It takes you right to the edge if it's taken in sufficient amounts, and it takes you back. It's a short-acting anesthetic."
//snip//

From the link:
"Propofol: Jackson's 'Milk of Amnesia'"

http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8193162&pid=248

And more opinions about the effects of Propofol:

//snip//
But despite the effects and risk profile of the drug, some patients who've had the drug describe it as inducing "a very pleasant sleep" that "has the potential to be habit-forming," said Dr. Howard Nearman, chairman of the anesthesiology department at University Hospitals Case Medical Center in Cleveland.

And Dr. Bruce Goldberger, chief of forensic pathology at the University of Florida, noted that the drug "also acts as an aphrodisiac in men -- it has been reported that men have very vivid sexual dreams while under propofol anesthesia."
//end//

[VC2]

Katherine Jackson's lawyer is making noise that Michael Jackson's will may not be valid because it wasn't notarized. That's simply not the case.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/jackson-will-no-notarization-no-problem/

my opinion of katherine is starting to change. There is no reason to contest this will, it is good for her and the children. The executors are top of the line attorneys, the probate attorney (weitzman) is a nationally recognized civil attorney and branca has enormous experience as an entertainment attorney making the most money for his clients as possible.

Katherine is out of her mind if she wants to challenge this, there is only one reason i can think of and it doesn't put her in a good light either. Yes i know Joe is likely behind it but she has the ability to stop this nonsense and her disrespect of her sons will is beginning to make me wonder.

IMO

[CinderL.]

LKL is talking about Omar MJ's secret "love" child...or Joe Jackson is talking about him. I googled this. Has anyone heard of this???:ohmy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5892077/Michael-Jackson-met-secret-love-child-in-Tunisian-hotel.html

[CinderL.]

The young man at the funeral.

What a bunch of BS.

Anyone who remembers what MJ really looks like would know that none of the kids even resemble him. At all.

imo

So, who is this kid, and why was he at the funeral? I am :confused:

[who_is_it]

LKL is talking about Omar MJ's secret "love" child...or Joe Jackson is talking about him. I googled this. Has anyone heard of this???:ohmy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5892077/Michael-Jackson-met-secret-love-child-in-Tunisian-hotel.html

There was a mother of his children coming out, an alleged son, now they've made someone his love child...

There will be hundreds of secret mothers, secret sons, secret love children, secret straight lovers, secret gay lovers, best friends who will come out during the next years.

[VC2]

I couldn't disagree more.

Firstly his change of look wasn't boundary-violating in a way that it hurt anybody. Secondly who sets the standards and boundaries for "normality" and who says this standard is better than another?

The author says "it would never be tolerated in more ordinary circumstances"... but I claim opposite: In "ordinary circumstances" there are no trashy media which fuel the offense. About people who are reachable in person you would never talk the same derogative way like about a celebrity. If you talked about friends, colleagues etc. as vile as about a celebrity it would boomerang: Others would say you run people down, have no heart etc. Someone who constantly makes malicious remarks isn't welcome.

very very true who. The absolute glee that many take in laughing at, deriding or demeaning MJ for his looks is somthing that is a shock to me. His death is a tragedy, whatever the cause. Three children are fatherless now and the world has lost one of the biggest entertainers of this generation. Discussing his drug use is one thing but laughing and finding disease funny or taking pleasure in attacking him for his looks is another entirely.

It certainly would shunned if it was done to any regular member of the public, friends or family. If the media went after joe blow who died say of a huge overdose because he had a disfiguring disease, and could not live with it emotionally, for the disfigurement there would be outrage. It seems it is ok if it is Michael Jackson though.

IMO

[CinderL.]

There was a mother of his children coming out, an alleged son, now they've made someone his love child...

There will be hundreds of secret mothers, secret sons, secret love children, secret straight lovers, secret gay lovers, best friends who will come out during the next years.

Why was this boy at the funeral? Does anyone know?

[CinderL.]

Forget you haven't been around but the discussion is here:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=355400&page=10

Thanks Athena, yes I missed a lot. :biggrin:

[BOZGAL2]

Oh, dear. Anyone watching Larry King?

Joe Jackson did an interview on TV One and didn't deny that that MJ has another son - the one who was at the funeral. :rolleyes:

I can always count on JJ for a good laugh. :biggrin:
Why can the man not keep his mouth shut when someone asks a question? JMO

He had no problem the other night on LKL.
The big shrug and no answer. :rolleyes:

[Zenyatta]

Geez - how many doctors did MJ shop?

Beverly Hills plastic surgeon Lawrence Koplin has become at least the third physician searched by authorities investigating the death of Michael Jackson.

Coroner Assistant Chief Ed Winter was seen entering the clinic on Wednesday and later told reporters he was searching for the pop star's medical records.

A woman who answered the phone at Koplin's office tells PEOPLE, "We're cooperating with the coroner's office and we have no comment at this time."

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20294713,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

Hi Athena!

No kidding....I have heard it reported that 19 Doctors are under investigation. Sorry -- no linky -- it's hot here and I'm too tired to look it up. :smile:

LKL is reporting that autopsy report won't be released until next week. That may be old news. imo

[BOZGAL2]

MJ had many DR'S.
I've heard certain reporters say as many as 19. :sad:

But of course this could be the number of DR'S he has seen over his lifetime. JMO

[BOZGAL2]

According to Randi on AC360 right now -- says Feds say "Dr Murray is the only one we're looking at".

Also said Dr Murray's house is in foreclosure and needs to pay up by mid-August. He is $435M in debt

Also at the end of LKL Marcia Clark said she believes the autopsy report is being held up 1) because Chief Bratton is on vacation - due back next week and 2) so that autopsy report coincides with either charges are either filed or not for Dr. Murray.

ITA with #2.

[GentleBreeze]

I am not saying I don't have sympathy for MJ, just as I do anyone that has problems of any kind. I just don't go along with the blame everything on what has happened in his life. His dad, his conditions, etc. He had the money to get help of the good kind, not Dr.'s, and a group of people who were willing to do whatever MJ wanted. Someone needed to tell him to get on with his life, with all of the bad, and the good. IMO

Yes, I do agree but imo MJ did not particularly trust adults and imo had good reasons not to and in the end no one really walked the walk...they just talked the talk and never tried to legally intervene to try and help him. Imo anyone who is addicted to drugs does have to have a support group that really cares enough to do tough love. Imo, MJs family was too busy mooching off of him and didn't dare want to anger him.

The doctors who were funneling drugs to a known drug addict could name their price and the pharmacy that sold them could as well. Greed is what kept MJ supplied in drugs. Instead of doing the ethical thing they have blood on their hands and instead of trying to help him they supplied him with what they knew eventually would kill him.

I don't see it as blame. I see it as the footsteps that MJ walked during his life from his childhood to his death. Everyone's life experiences certainly forms who they are and who they will become. To me MJ was a very lonely, shy, introverted man who truly felt that the public at large didn't know him, and I am sure he was convinced that they didn't want to know the real him either, but would rather believe all the sick twisted trashloids that constantly berated him.

I think MJ was a very sensitive soul and when he hurt, he hurt deeply and when he hurt he numbed himself with medication. Imo artists seem to be more sensitive than just an average person and what someone else can overcome another individual cannot. It is all about the individual person and the steps they have taken and what life has dealt them to contend with and how strong they are/were to handle what life threw their way.

I cannot begin to know the pain in MJs heart but I do believe he told the truth about so many things and when one is not believed and the truth is never good enough that has got to affect them greatly mentally, imo.

Yes, he had money and many others who have had money sunk to rock bottom and could not shake their addiction either. It not only happens to superstars it happens to highly educated people as well who once were CEOs of companies and lost everything including their families. Drug addiction does not discriminate. It affects all walks of life and having money is not the answer and usually winds up exacerbating the problem.

But I have compassion for them too because I fervently believe no one sets their sights and goals on becoming a drug addict. Iirc only about 15% of those who are addicted to drugs will make it to the other side and become clean and sober for the rest of their lives. It shows just how hard it is to stop.

So it isn't about blame. MJ is no longer here and those with legal blame will be charged imo. It is about trying to understand why this person ended up in this way. It is heartbreaking that it came to this and imo the world has lost one of its kindest souls who loved all people and wanted desparately to feel the love from others.

I do feel without a shadow of a doubt that MJ knew his children loved him very much. I am glad at least he felt that love from his children and he was determine to let them know how much he truly loved them too. He stopped the abuse in its tracks. MJ was no Joe Jackson.

imo

[daniel green]

Maureen Orth is as bad as Diane Dimond. When she wrote about the trial she lied just as much as DD did about what happened in it, has had a case for him for years.

I was stunned when i heard she was Tims wife. I lost all respect for her during the trial and aftermath, absolutely zero credibility when discussing the case or michael jackson

IMO

She is a well-respected journalist for a well respected publication and has been one for over 30 yrs.

Nothing she has written, with ppl ON THE RECORD, has ever been disproved. In fact, most of it came out during the trial.

[BOZGAL2]

over his lifetime? LOL

That was just probably the last year ! imo

Medicine is so specialized now that you are referred to a specialist for just about everything.

I would not even want to add up the number of DR'S I've seen in my lifetime. I'm sure the number would be high.

[Zenyatta]

Ok, I was feeling guilty:

Massive Jackson Investigation into Rx

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/massive-jackson-investigation-expanded/

Dr. Conrad Murray has emerged as the primary target in the death of Michael Jackson -- but law enforcement sources tell us a massive investigation is taking form into what could be fraudulent prescription practices of more than a dozen doctors ... and we're told that number could easily double.

LAPD detectives and members of the L.A. County Coroner's office are gathering info on various doctors who treated Michael Jackson over the years. Subpoenas have been issued, medical files have been taken and conversations with various doctors and their lawyers are taking place.

Jackson has used more than 2 dozen aliases to score drugs, with the help of doctors ... 19 alone are mentioned in the affidavits used to secure search warrants against Dr. Murray.
//snip//

Video: More Doctors under investigation

http://www.videonewslive.com/view/356729/video_more_doctors_under_investigation

July 21: A source tells NBC News that at least 19 doctors are under investigation in the death of pop icon Michael Jackson. NBC?s Jeff Rossen reports. (Today Show)

[VC2]

Do you think that MJ died because he had a disfiguring desease, and couldn't live with it? You are talking about the Vitiligo?

no i don't, not directly. I do think the psychological effect of a self image problem like many who have a disease that that affects their looks will have contributed to his addiction problems. So in that sense there is a link. the psychological effect of being laughed at, disbelieved, told you want to turn yourself white (when you have set up and contributed to so many african american charities) will have not helped either.

My whole point is the glee that some take in laughing at a dead man who we know had self image problems, laughing at his looks when talking about a disease that caused his looks-such as needing makeup and to use things like an umbrella in sun, is pretty inhuman

jmo

[BOZGAL2]

Yes, I do agree but imo MJ did not particularly trust adults and imo had good reasons not to and in the end no one really walked the walk...they just talked the talk and never tried to legally intervene to try and help him. Imo anyone who is addicted to drugs does have to have a support group that really cares enough to do tough love. Imo, MJs family was too busy mooching off of him and didn't dare want to anger him.

The doctors who were funneling drugs to a known drug addict could name their price and the pharmacy that sold them could as well. Greed is what kept MJ supplied in drugs. Instead of doing the ethical thing they have blood on their hands and instead of trying to help him they supplied him with what they knew eventually would kill him.

I don't see it as blame. I see it as the footsteps that MJ walked during his life from his childhood to his death. Everyone's life experiences certainly forms who they are and who they will become. To me MJ was a very lonely, shy, introverted man who truly felt that the public at large didn't know him, and I am sure he was convinced that they didn't want to know the real him either, but would rather believe all the sick twisted trashloids that constantly berated him.

I think MJ was a very sensitive soul and when he hurt, he hurt deeply and when he hurt he numbed himself with medication. Imo artists seem to be more sensitive than just an average person and what someone else can overcome another individual cannot. It is all about the individual person and the steps they have taken and what life has dealt them to contend with and how strong they are/were to handle what life threw their way.

I cannot begin to know the pain in MJs heart but I do believe he told the truth about so many things and when one is not believed and the truth is never good enough that has got to affect them greatly mentally, imo.

Yes, he had money and many others who have had money sunk to rock bottom and could not shake their addiction either. It not only happens to superstars it happens to highly educated people as well who once were CEOs of companies and lost everything including their families. Drug addiction does not discriminate. It affects all walks of life and having money is not the answer and usually winds up exacerbating the problem.

But I have compassion for them too because I fervently believe no one sets their sights and goals on becoming a drug addict. Iirc only about 15% of those who are addicted to drugs will make it to the other side and become clean and sober for the rest of their lives. It shows just how hard it is to stop.

So it isn't about blame. MJ is no longer here and those with legal blame will be charged imo. It is about trying to understand why this person ended up in this way. It is heartbreaking that it came to this and imo the world has lost one of its kindest souls who loved all people and wanted desparately to feel the love from others.

I do feel without a shadow of a doubt that MJ knew his children loved him very much. I am glad at least he felt that love from his children and he was determine to let them know how much he truly loved them too. He stopped the abuse in its tracks. MJ was no Joe Jackson.

imo

Wonderful post.
ITA
I'm so happy he did at least know true love from his children. Even if it was not long enough.

And with that, I'll say goodnight. :seeya:

[daniel green]

You should find them horrifying and sensationalized at best.


snipped]

Nope. She is a well-respected journalist who has written about 100's and 100's of topics, 5 times on MJ. Furthermore, someone in my family knows her, professionally, and respects her 100% and, knowing HER judgement, I believe her.

[CinderL.]

Yes, I do agree but imo MJ did not particularly trust adults and imo had good reasons not to and in the end no one really walked the walk...they just talked the talk and never tried to legally intervene to try and help him. Imo anyone who is addicted to drugs does have to have a support group that really cares enough to do tough love. Imo, MJs family was too busy mooching off of him and didn't dare want to anger him.

The doctors who were funneling drugs to a known drug addict could name their price and the pharmacy that sold them could as well. Greed is what kept MJ supplied in drugs. Instead of doing the ethical thing they have blood on their hands and instead of trying to help him they supplied him with what they knew eventually would kill him.

I don't see it as blame. I see it as the footsteps that MJ walked during his life from his childhood to his death. Everyone's life experiences certainly forms who they are and who they will become. To me MJ was a very lonely, shy, introverted man who truly felt that the public at large didn't know him, and I am sure he was convinced that they didn't want to know the real him either, but would rather believe all the sick twisted trashloids that constantly berated him.

I think MJ was a very sensitive soul and when he hurt, he hurt deeply and when he hurt he numbed himself with medication. Imo artists seem to be more sensitive than just an average person and what someone else can overcome another individual cannot. It is all about the individual person and the steps they have taken and what life has dealt them to contend with and how strong they are/were to handle what life threw their way.

I cannot begin to know the pain in MJs heart but I do believe he told the truth about so many things and when one is not believed and the truth is never good enough that has got to affect them greatly mentally, imo.

Yes, he had money and many others who have had money sunk to rock bottom and could not shake their addiction either. It not only happens to superstars it happens to highly educated people as well who once were CEOs of companies and lost everything including their families. Drug addiction does not discriminate. It affects all walks of life and having money is not the answer and usually winds up exacerbating the problem.

But I have compassion for them too because I fervently believe no one sets their sights and goals on becoming a drug addict. Iirc only about 15% of those who are addicted to drugs will make it to the other side and become clean and sober for the rest of their lives. It shows just how hard it is to stop.

So it isn't about blame. MJ is no longer here and those with legal blame will be charged imo. It is about trying to understand why this person ended up in this way. It is heartbreaking that it came to this and imo the world has lost one of its kindest souls who loved all people and wanted desparately to feel the love from others.

I do feel without a shadow of a doubt that MJ knew his children loved him very much. I am glad at least he felt that love from his children and he was determine to let them know how much he truly loved them too. He stopped the abuse in its tracks. MJ was no Joe Jackson.

imo

Nice post. :smile:

[GentleBreeze]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I thought he looked better than most men his age. It was somewhat shocking seeing him look so great, after hearing all the reports that he was so sickly.

imo...of course.

Here are some of his last photos.

MJ looks good!

http://justjared.buzznet.com/2009/06/29/michael-jackson-final-rehearsal/

ETA: Does this man look 50???? NO WAY! lol

[CinderL.]

no i don't, not directly. I do think the psychological effect of a self image problem like many who have a disease that that affects their looks will have contributed to his addiction problems. So in that sense there is a link. the psychological effect of being laughed at, disbelieved, told you want to turn yourself white (when you have set up and contributed to so many african american charities) will have not helped either.

My whole point is the glee that some take in laughing at a dead man who we know had self image problems, laughing at his looks when talking about a disease that caused his looks-such as needing makeup and to use things like an umbrella in sun, is pretty inhuman

jmo

I truly haven't seen anyone laughing at a dead man....on this forum anyway. I think I laughed with his claim that he only had two plastic surgeries. No way...IMO. But I have never seen anyone on here laughing at any of his problems.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.tmz.com/

Dr. Murray's Employees Tell Different Stories
Posted Jul 29th 2009 9:28PM by TMZ Staff

The two women who allegedly went to Dr. Conrad Murray's Houston storage unit and removed boxes just hours before Michael Jackson was pronounced dead are telling inconsistent stories about what was taken from the storage facility.

[daniel green]

snipped Discussing his drug use is one thing but laughing and finding disease funny or taking pleasure in attacking him for his looks is another entirely.

It certainly would shunned if it was done to any regular member of the public, friends or family. If the media went after joe blow who died say of a huge overdose because he had a disfiguring disease, and could not live with it emotionally, for the disfigurement there would be outrage. It seems it is ok if it is Michael Jackson though.

IMO

1) Who has done this?

2) You serioursly believe that MJ died of an overdose BECAUSE he had a disfiguring disease and he could not live with emotionally?

(and how does that make sense? If he had gone through depigmintation, he would no longer have a disfiguring disease)

[daniel green]

snipped
Katherine is out of her mind if she wants to challenge this, there is only one reason i can think of and it doesn't put her in a good light either. Yes i know Joe is likely behind it but she has the ability to stop this nonsense and her disrespect of her sons will is beginning to make me wonder.

IMO

Uh huh. I agree. Although I doubt her husband has much to do with it.

[daniel green]

The young man at the funeral.

What a bunch of BS.

Anyone who remembers what MJ really looks like would know that none of the kids even resemble him. At all.

imo

Not in the least.

[daniel green]

Welcome to the dark side;)

I never cared for her and outlined the reasons days ago.

I am still angry she hasn't made the decision to bury her son...and it is her decision!!!

That's where I have been all along as well, TDT.

[daniel green]

snipped Greed is what kept MJ supplied in drugs. snipped

And addiction. And wealth. And being a celeb.

[Unperson1984]

Uh huh. I agree. Although I doubt her husband has much to do with it.

I have to wonder how much more than 40% she wants?

[daniel green]

He paid to look like that. It's not like he was born that way.

When a plastic surgeon told him enough....he shopped around till he found one that would mutilate him further. IMO Those willing surgeons are also criminals.

He OBVIOUSLY suffered from body dysphormic disorder...he hated the way he looked. I also believe he was anorexic. imo

The man needed a really good shrink. imo

Indeed.

Cannot agree with you more.

What is shocking about this is the length to which such diseases such as BDS and anorexia and addiction will go when there is enough wealth and power to carry it out this far.

If a housewife is doctor shopping or buying Xanax/percocette/oxycontin online the end result is pretty clear. But what if same housewife had millions and power and time?

Frightening.

[daniel green]

I have to wonder how much more than 40% she wants?

My guess? Another 60%.

[daniel green]

I respect your opinion but I have very little if any respect for MO - followed too closely!

Did you read the links I supplied? There are more available too! JMO

Yes, I did and thank you!

I have read her for years and yrs on various other topics and respect her objectivity and reporting skills totally.

[daniel green]

From the Primetime show, thoughts.

WOW. MJ was taking 30-40 xanax per night at some points???? :scared:

He would stay up all night shopping on ebay.

This Murray is in some serious hot water. And a boatload of debt. How much is he owing in back child support did they say? And his house is forclosed. And that business selling diet energy drinks in Trinidad?

As per the diprivan administration--they showed both the pushing the drug right into the IV site (back of hand) AND sometimes using it in the pump.

It would take a drawer full of diprivan vials to keep a patient asleep overnight. YOWZER. :scared:

[daniel green]

Oh, and how about that Murray had been charged and tried for, and found not guilty, for beating his girl friend?

Lots of reporting about MJ getting drugs from various docs in LV since he went to live there. Had a reputation for it.

What I think says a lot is that, of course, this is exactly the kind of doctor that an addict needs to find. Particularly one with lots of money--needing to find a doc with no scruples and in debt.

A nurse practitioner or home health care person who worked in the office Murray shared with that other doc who lost his license talked about how the drug dealing was OPEN. And she left as a result because she did not want to lose hers.

[retiredcop]

I have to wonder how much more than 40% she wants?

She wants it all of course. Throw the charities out too. She is so greedy she doesn't even have the time to bury her own son.

We blame Joe for everything, but I think Katherine is just like him. It's all about money. That's why she stood by and let Joe beat her kids. It was all about money. Disgusting. Now she has Mr Jackson children.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

I am not saying I don't have sympathy for MJ, just as I do anyone that has problems of any kind. I just don't go along with the blame everything on what has happened in his life. His dad, his conditions, etc. He had the money to get help of the good kind, not Dr.'s, and a group of people who were willing to do whatever MJ wanted. Someone needed to tell him to get on with his life, with all of the bad, and the good. IMO

This is such a great post.

I work with children, and have for 20 yrs, who live in houses infected with roaches and maggots, who pick up their baby bottles from cesspool-backed up filth on the floors to drink the watered Kool-Aid from them. Who are beaten to the point that their legs look like a mass of welts, from the keloid scarring. Who have been raped by their fathers and/or mother's boyfriends and whose moms don't do anything about it because the moms get drugs from those men. Who live in such acute poverty and scarcety that it is mind blowing.

15 yrs ago our first foster child, "T," came to live with us one Friday night because there was absolutely nobody in three counties to take her in. All full up. I had worked with her as a GAL and knew her, at least somewhat. Not well. Just met on ocassion. T was 10 yrs old. She had pelvic inflamatory disease from an untreated case of ghonorhea, she had lice and a face-full of disfiguring white bumps that hurt to look at her. Her hair had been chopped off with what looked like a knife. Her mom, an addict, had just gone to jail for stabbing a man, in front of this child. Her two half-sibs would be taken care of by other relatives.

What was gonna be a weekend stay, lasted for almost 2 yrs. Her mom got sober, went to school, went to parenting classes anf fulfilled every one of the judge's and the GAL's recommendations.

T graduated from college 2 yrs ago. She bought a house this past winter, she is working for a non-profit helping at-risk youth, and is a remarkable young woman of spirit, vitality and faith.

So, the blame everything on his childhood routine gets very old to me. Not to say I don't have compassion for it, I do. It's why I do the work I do. But, c'mon. There is but so much one can, as a 50 yr old, keep blaming on one's childhood.

[retiredcop]

http://www.tmz.com/

Dr. Murray's Employees Tell Different Stories
Posted Jul 29th 2009 9:28PM by TMZ Staff

The two women who allegedly went to Dr. Conrad Murray's Houston storage unit and removed boxes just hours before Michael Jackson was pronounced dead are telling inconsistent stories about what was taken from the storage facility.

Maybe they were over there stealing some things. That would be rich if Mr. Jackson happened to die the day of their planned heist.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

I so agree with this guy

"Given enough immunization in the form of wealth and celebrity, a person is free to relieve the tormenting pressures of his or her fantasy world in the sort of floridly eccentric, boundary-violating ways that would never be tolerated from people in more ordinary circumstances, who are subject to more stringent societal constrictions (or, as may be the case, safeguards)."


http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9588/

What an absolutely fascinating piece. Utterly fascinating.

An Axis II borderline (borderline being one of those catchall terms that are used to describe people whose problems lie somewhere on the continuum between garden-variety neurosis and blood-curdling psychosis) who suffers from body dysmorphic disorder and some variant of OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). And that’s just for starters.

The paragraph about how we loved the little MJ, through our black/white TV screens, as he sang with his brothers was absolutely lovely. Really hit home to me.

And as the subtitle says, "The difference between him and ordinary neurotics is that he could."

Thx very much for that link!

[Unperson1984]

She wants it all of course. Throw the charities out too. She is so greedy she doesn't even have the time to bury her own son.

We blame Joe for everything, but I think Katherine is just like him. It's all about money. That's why she stood by and let Joe beat her kids. It was all about money. Disgusting. Now she has Mr Jackson children.

in my opinion

I realize that it may be blasphemy to say this, but I have to question how much these children are loved by MJ’s family. At best they’re half African-American, at worse they aren’t MJ’s biological children and are half Jewish. They obviously haven’t been raised around the Jackson family to any great degree, and they have lived an upscale lifestyle compared to most of the Jacksons.

Would the family be as concerned for their well-being if millions of dollars didn’t come along with the children? Katherine’s power grab makes me wonder.

IMO

[Eagleeye]

that is so disgusting.

I am beginning to come around to the idea that he died 3 hours earlier and Murray spent the time getting records removed, panicking and trying to figure out what to do. The reason i had not believed it earlier is that 3 hours is going to have cooled the body down to the point EMT's would know it was not only hopeless but the report would go to the coroner. Now we know the room was stifling hot, wonder if murray turned up the heat to keep the skin temp warm.

imo

ETA lynda, how long would it take before a body started to break down internally with the heat? I mean it would obviously keep the skin "normal' to the touch but would there be evidence upon autopsy of organ breakdown beginning?

VC, you didn't ask me but at a normal room temperature a body cools at a rate of @ 1.5 degrees per hour until it gets to the ambient room temperature. Decomposition starts almost immediately. A higher room temp would keep the body warmer longer but would excererate the rate of decomposition. However the EMT's said he was cool to the touch. That would mean that he at least lost three to four degrees for that to be so. In the coroners office they would have taken the temp of the liver which would give them an idea of how long he was dead. He was most likely in algor (coolness) mortis when he arrived at the hospital which would mean he was dead within a six hour range. It is a little more complicated than that but this is a thumbnail sketch of it. I believe he was dead at least three to four hours before he was transported to the hospital.

ETA: Once the body starts decomposition the internal temperature starts to rise again.

[daniel green]

snipped

At the end of LKL Marcia Clark said she believes the autopsy report is being held up 1) because Chief Bratton is on vacation - due back next week and 2) so that autopsy report coincides with either charges are either filed or not for Dr. Murray.



On Primetime they said that the tox report is back and the family has seen it.

[Ionmhainn]

I think that's a common mistake ...to believe that people "blame" all their problems on their upbringing. I think they are looking for answers. Having said that, everything has a "root." By being completely in charge, JJ, imo, overlooked the fact that he was not teaching his children how to look after themselves. Having financial resources has little to do with being emotionally healthy! Some think that by getting away, they have left their problems behind them. But...there are no geographical cures. You're just somewhere else with the same problems. Those who "get away" are determined to not do what their parents did. But...what to do instead? I'd say it's pretty hard to fashion a healthy life for yourself from a skewed foundation, no matter your financial or social status.
IMO

[daniel green]

http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8193162&pid=248

A deadly cocktail of drugs.

Oh, and on Primetime, an ex-diprivan addict talked about her addiction.

[daniel green]

no i don't, not directly. I do think the psychological effect of a self image problem like many who have a disease that that affects their looks will have contributed to his addiction problems. So in that sense there is a link. the psychological effect of being laughed at, disbelieved, told you want to turn yourself white (when you have set up and contributed to so many african american charities) will have not helped either.

My whole point is the glee that some take in laughing at a dead man who we know had self image problems, laughing at his looks when talking about a disease that caused his looks-such as needing makeup and to use things like an umbrella in sun, is pretty inhuman

jmo

Sorry, I'd asked the same question, VC, and just now reading your answer.

Addiction is not caused BY something. And nobody here is laughing at him or taking glee in anything.

The disease did not cause his looks--he had surgery after surgery to change his looks. Including tatoo eyeliner and lip-color, which were not the cause of any disease he may or may not have had, and it was certainly not "needing to wear makeup."

See? This is when it becomes very difficult to actually discuss this case, if folks who are discussing very obvious things that shaped his life are told they are being inhumane or mistreating MJ or something.

[daniel green]

Thank you!!!

You are more than welcome!

And sorry for the personal rant, but, really, having personally witnessed the horror stories I have of thousands of children's lives, I have a little trouble with this one.

[daniel green]

I found it facinating as well...did you happen to catch the date? Was written about 5 years ago

Yeah--I noticed that.

Very fondly written, too. The lovely noting of how he should have been being read stories like Goodnight Moon and the Runaway Rabbit.

And incredibly insightful, that piece.

[daniel green]

So many of the school shootings, including Columbine stem from the hate and cruelty that exists in our schools. snipped.

As it turns out, that was just a myth.

[daniel green]

It seems you and I have very simular professional backgrounds.

My condolences, TDT. :sad:

[aproudmom]

Why is it a shock to you?

The man looked like a freak.

imo

omg forensicpy that is a little to much a freak? a little harsh IMO..

[aproudmom]

daniel - I just watched the Primetime show -- they did not say anything about this cocktail of drugs and were still reporting that they are not even sure it was diprivan so the article you linked to above has yet to be confirmed. I thought the article you posted was in direct relation to the show? They also did not say anything about the Jackson family having seen the autopsy report although I know they probably saw the private one they requested -- but it was not mentioned in this show. The other drugs they spoke about were from 2003. The show still left us with the same questions we have. The only thing it went into more detail about was the background of Dr. Murray and Elizabeth Vargas even said they are combing his files to link him with the diprivan. Oh well.... :confused:

I saw the same as you did..maybe I missed some:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/30/michael.jackson.wrap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories


While authorities have subpoenaed the records of various doctors who have treated Jackson over the years, "Dr. [Conrad] Murray is the only one we're looking at," the federal law enforcement official said.

[aproudmom]

This is such a great post.

I work with children, and have for 20 yrs, who live in houses infected with roaches and maggots, who pick up their baby bottles from cesspool-backed up filth on the floors to drink the watered Kool-Aid from them. Who are beaten to the point that their legs look like a mass of welts, from the keloid scarring. Who have been raped by their fathers and/or mother's boyfriends and whose moms don't do anything about it because the moms get drugs from those men. Who live in such acute poverty and scarcety that it is mind blowing.

15 yrs ago our first foster child, "T," came to live with us one Friday night because there was absolutely nobody in three counties to take her in. All full up. I had worked with her as a GAL and knew her, at least somewhat. Not well. Just met on ocassion. T was 10 yrs old. She had pelvic inflamatory disease from an untreated case of ghonorhea, she had lice and a face-full of disfiguring white bumps that hurt to look at her. Her hair had been chopped off with what looked like a knife. Her mom, an addict, had just gone to jail for stabbing a man, in front of this child. Her two half-sibs would be taken care of by other relatives.

What was gonna be a weekend stay, lasted for almost 2 yrs. Her mom got sober, went to school, went to parenting classes anf fulfilled every one of the judge's and the GAL's recommendations.

T graduated from college 2 yrs ago. She bought a house this past winter, she is working for a non-profit helping at-risk youth, and is a remarkable young woman of spirit, vitality and faith.

So, the blame everything on his childhood routine gets very old to me. Not to say I don't have compassion for it, I do. It's why I do the work I do. But, c'mon. There is but so much one can, as a 50 yr old, keep blaming on one's childhood.

thank you for sharing that..I am sitting here with tissue but I am glad she overcame all that...what a strong young women who had to have some wonderful people in her life for her to end up like she did...I volunteer in a battered women's shelter I can not even say all I have seen and heard but after 5 years of beatings myself I left for my unborn son 19yrs ago so I felt it was a calling for me to help others and show them you can get help you do have a future if you put your mind to it I do not know just what MJ went through but for some reason he never found the strength to get past it so I wont blame him for how he felt about his father or the way he looked I do think he had problems and when he said he hated to look in the mirror he meant it and was not just saying look at poor me..the sad thing is he there was help out there to help him get past that for the most part some never forget so until I walk in their shoes I will not judge I still have trouble and fear things from 19yr ago but I did get the help but does not mean I will ever forget it..I had to go on for my child and now children..so I agree with you but I do think we have to see we are not MJ we did not have cameras in our faces at 5 and then tore apart for years no matter what he did so did he ever have a chance or was it all his fault? that I do not know..and he is dead now so I guess it is to late..and it will continue with other famous and rich people..IMO

[aproudmom]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/30/michael.jackson.wrap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories


While authorities have subpoenaed the records of various doctors who have treated Jackson over the years, "Dr. [Conrad] Murray is the only one we're looking at," the federal law enforcement official said.

I just heard this on HLN and was not going to post it without a link so guess I was not hearing things.thanks GB

[CinderL.]

This is such a great post.

I work with children, and have for 20 yrs, who live in houses infected with roaches and maggots, who pick up their baby bottles from cesspool-backed up filth on the floors to drink the watered Kool-Aid from them. Who are beaten to the point that their legs look like a mass of welts, from the keloid scarring. Who have been raped by their fathers and/or mother's boyfriends and whose moms don't do anything about it because the moms get drugs from those men. Who live in such acute poverty and scarcety that it is mind blowing.

15 yrs ago our first foster child, "T," came to live with us one Friday night because there was absolutely nobody in three counties to take her in. All full up. I had worked with her as a GAL and knew her, at least somewhat. Not well. Just met on ocassion. T was 10 yrs old. She had pelvic inflamatory disease from an untreated case of ghonorhea, she had lice and a face-full of disfiguring white bumps that hurt to look at her. Her hair had been chopped off with what looked like a knife. Her mom, an addict, had just gone to jail for stabbing a man, in front of this child. Her two half-sibs would be taken care of by other relatives.

What was gonna be a weekend stay, lasted for almost 2 yrs. Her mom got sober, went to school, went to parenting classes anf fulfilled every one of the judge's and the GAL's recommendations.

T graduated from college 2 yrs ago. She bought a house this past winter, she is working for a non-profit helping at-risk youth, and is a remarkable young woman of spirit, vitality and faith.

So, the blame everything on his childhood routine gets very old to me. Not to say I don't have compassion for it, I do. It's why I do the work I do. But, c'mon. There is but so much one can, as a 50 yr old, keep blaming on one's childhood.

My goodness, I don't know how you do what you do. It takes a special person. Gold stars x1000 for you and those like you who do make a difference.

[who_is_it]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

This is what I meant by freak:

"In contemporary usage, the word freak is commonly used to refer to a person with something unusual about their appearance or behavior"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak

Like Al Sharpton said to his children: "Not your father was strange... but there were strange things he had to deal with."

Many people who knew Michael said he was more down to earth that you would think.

[who_is_it]

no i don't, not directly. I do think the psychological effect of a self image problem like many who have a disease that that affects their looks will have contributed to his addiction problems. So in that sense there is a link. the psychological effect of being laughed at, disbelieved, told you want to turn yourself white (when you have set up and contributed to so many african american charities) will have not helped either.

My whole point is the glee that some take in laughing at a dead man who we know had self image problems, laughing at his looks when talking about a disease that caused his looks-such as needing makeup and to use things like an umbrella in sun, is pretty inhuman

jmo

:beer:

I agree.

Often the ones who laugh have problems with their looks or self confidence themselves imo.

[who_is_it]

I think it was Al Sharpton. :biggrin:

Yes, your right, it was Al Sharpton. Sorry, I confused the name.

[who_is_it]

From your link:

"Clearly, something was very wrong," she said. "I instantly felt the energy in the house change. It was normally a warm, happy home. In an instant that feeling was gone. The mood became very unsettling."

Chase said Jackson was a great father, letting the children stay up late, watching movies and eating popcorn, but ensuring their days were fairly regimented, with time set aside for study, theater and dance.

"The house was always filled with games, laughter and music," she said. "This makes what happened on June 25th all the more difficult."

So sad to read. :sad:

EVERYBODY said he was such a nice father to them.

[who_is_it]

Was MJ crying out for help? A very haunting song!

Demerol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYzolk3_r50&NR=1


Lyrics:

Relax
This won't hurt you Before I put it in Close your eyes and count to ten
Don't cry I won't convert you There's no need to dismay Close your eyes and drift away

Demerol Demerol Oh God he's taking demerol
Demerol Demerol Oh God he's taking demerol

<snipped>

:ohmy:

I didn't know this song before. So he already knew the drug in 1997 (I just googled when the song was released). He didn't chose to sing about "demerol" by coincidence imo. Most people don't know this drug at all; I, for example, have never ever heard about it before MJ's death.

Yep, you might be right that it was a cry out for help.

[who_is_it]

<snipped>
You have to remember, though, Michael was rehearsing until midnight. Whatever killed him, he must have gotten that after midnight. Until midnight, he was up and about.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/29/lkl.01.html

Ever later, Athena. The magician left the rehearsal at about midnight... and they haven't finished at this time. You have to add the time it took to get back home. I guess he wasn't in bed before 1:30 am (imo).

[CinderL.]

Chopra's talking about MJ last night on LKL.

CHOPRA: Michael was a tortured soul. If you understand the context of his life, you understand why he could have been a tortured soul. He was a loving, compassionate human being. But he also had a lot of self-loathing, a lot of shame, and also an obsession with self- mutilation, as evidenced by the surgery.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/29/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

snipped
I admire people who do what you do -- it can be very rewarding as well as heartbreaking - but it is the accomplishments of these children that you come to cherish.

:rose:

Thank you, but what I do is a day at the park, compared with what the children do, on a daily basis. How they survive the lives they live, I will never comprehend. Not even in 20 more yrs.

The accomplishments, very few and far between, I cherish, but the losses--which are huge--haunt me.

Our beloved foster child, also T, who came to us also as a 10 yr old, was murdered last year in his car, a few months after being released from prison.

[daniel green]

daniel - I just watched the Primetime show -- they did not say anything about this cocktail of drugs and were still reporting that they are not even sure it was diprivan so the article you linked to above has yet to be confirmed. I thought the article you posted was in direct relation to the show? They also did not say anything about the Jackson family having seen the autopsy report although I know they probably saw the private one they requested -- but it was not mentioned in this show. snipped:

Toward the end of the show they say that the tox report is out and that the fam has seen it and it will probly be released next week.

The article I linked to was separate from the Primetime show--which was the only thing I watched last night.

[daniel green]

thank you for sharing that..I am sitting here with tissue but I am glad she overcame all that...what a strong young women who had to have some wonderful people in her life for her to end up like she did...I volunteer in a battered women's shelter I can not even say all I have seen and heard but after 5 years of beatings myself I left for my unborn son 19yrs ago so I felt it was a calling for me to help others and show them you can get help you do have a future if you put your mind to it snipped

You were a brave woman to do what you did. Good for you and your son! And how wonderful that you give back and pay it forward by volunteering with battered women.

Yeah, I had tissues myself last night typing that out. She is a tough kid but had the great luck to have a mom who complied to everything, got her act together, got sober, went to school, got a job, got an apt far from govt housing and got the kids back within 2 yrs. THAT's what made this wonderful girl's success happen.

[daniel green]

So, KJ got custody.

She reached an agreement with DR.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN30328420

Poor kids.

[CinderL.]

TDT: Not sure why you are posting that since it has no bearing on MJ's death and hope we don't stray off topic???
CW closed the thread the last time this happened. :confused:

Why wouldn't his dad's abuse be part of the topic? Many people on here partially blame MJ's dad for MJ's drug abuse, which IMO killed him.

[daniel green]

snipped

KING: What if the toxicology report, Marcia, doesn't show Diprivan.

CLARK: Then you're in a whole different world. For example, here's how Dr. Murray doesn't get arrested. If what you have is a cocktail of drugs, Oxycontin, mixed with Demerol, mixed with Valium, whatever, and they come from a variety of different doctors, or even unknown doctors -- those pill bottles that don't have any labels on them, for example, and you don't know where they came from -- then you're not going to be able to charge anyone, because it's Michael Jackson taking a variety of things. Good luck finding somebody to be culpable for that.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/29/lkl.01.html

I agree with her 100%.

However, if the doc admitted to cops he administered the dirprivan and they can tie it to him in other ways, then there is an arrest.

However, if there is a veritable cocktail of meds in MJ's system, not sure there would be any kind of meaningful conviction.

Also, it is almost certain that the diprivan will not be in the tox report, given how fast it leaves the body.

[daniel green]

Geez daniel -- thought "T" had a happy ending. So sad. :(

2 different T's. One a girl, one a boy.

[CinderL.]

I agree with her 100%.

However, if the doc admitted to cops he administered the dirprivan and they can tie it to him in other ways, then there is an arrest.

However, if there is a veritable cocktail of meds in MJ's system, not sure there would be any kind of meaningful conviction.

Also, it is almost certain that the diprivan will not be in the tox report, given how fast it leaves the body.

Last night on LKL the Dr. was saying it (the diprovan) can get stored in the fat, and that if it was used a lot the hair would probably show it. I hope if that was what killed him it does show up.

************

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Dr. Chopra is absolutely right. First of all, it's not a routine toxicology test. I have talked to lots of people over the past several weeks regarding this very issue. Unless they knew to check for it, because it disappears from the body so quickly, you may not be able to test for it directly.

What happens, Larry, is a few things. One is it does get stored in fat. You may be able to go back and look at the fat and test for it. Also, people who chronically use it, you can test the hair for it as well. Finally, Larry, sometimes it breaks down into various by- products, and sometimes you can test for those by-products, not specific for Diprivan. But it may give you a pretty good idea.

[daniel green]

snipped

Our beloved foster child, also T, who came to us also as a 10 yr old, was murdered last year in his car, a few months after being released from prison.

sorry, let me fix this.

Our beloved foster child, ANOTHER T, who lived with us for 1 1/2 yrs, was a boy who went to prison as a very young man, was released and murdered on the street shortly after that.

[daniel green]

IMO It has lots to do with MJ dying...his children will be living with the woman she said took part and allowed the abuse.

Of course it does.

And around the same man who allegedly was the abuser.

[daniel green]

Do you believe Latoya's claims of abuse at her parents hand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLO-sGDHVts

another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYGP0R7CEg&featurehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLO-sGDHVts=PlayList&p=EC3474479831A230&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

Asking this seriously here, no snark, is vitiligo supposed to have affected her, as well, and the cause for her skin bleaching?

TIA

[daniel green]

Chopra's talking about MJ last night on LKL.

CHOPRA: Michael was a tortured soul. If you understand the context of his life, you understand why he could have been a tortured soul. He was a loving, compassionate human being. But he also had a lot of self-loathing, a lot of shame, and also an obsession with self- mutilation, as evidenced by the surgery.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/29/lkl.01.html

KING: Jim, could a pharmacy be in trouble?

MORET: That's a good question. I think a pharmacy is the ultimate gatekeeper. You have one pharmacy that has 100,000 dollars in outstanding bills, which they have admitted, with Michael Jackson. The question, should the pharmacy have noticed that too much medication was going to one person? They're out could be it was under a number of different aliases. They didn't know it was all going to Michael Jackson. So I think they have a defensible position.

KING: Marcia, what about involuntary manslaughter? I didn't mean to harm him.

CLARK: That would be if he was committing a misdemeanor or if he was acting in a lawful manner, but without due caution or circumspection. That's a two, three or four-year state prison sentence. It's what we call misdemeanor manslaughter. It could happen, if that is what they charge him with.

If, for example, as Trent was saying, he had certainly measures that he could be taking, that he was prepared to take, to counteract the Diprivan, and he wasn't as willfully negligent as second degree would indicate, then involuntary manslaughter would be the way to go.

KING: As a lawyer, if you were representing Dr. Murray, and you believed he had a good story, would you ask him to do media?

COPELAND: No.

KING: Because?

COPELAND: First of all, Larry, he has, in essence, done some media, because you can believe that those three hours of taped interviews that he gave immediately following Michael Jackson's death will, somehow or another, be released. At some point in time, we're going to hear exactly, if they were tape recording conversations -- my suspicion is they were. We're going to hear portions of that. We're also going to see some of the transcripts associated with that interview.

It can't do anything other than hurt him. He will have made certain admissions. He will have made certain statements that will almost always come back to bite him. So, no, I wouldn't advise him to do media.

Interesting.

[daniel green]

I found this interesting, as well, from the LKL transcript linked above:

KING: An internist?

CLARK: A cardiologist. But he's been in trouble before. He's had an arrest before. This is not a doctor with a great history. The fact that they're serving search warrants on his homes indicates that they're looking for all kinds of personal conduct that may indicate he's a criminal.

COPELAND: I'm not certain he's any disciplinary reports in the medical board.

CLARK: I thought he was suspended.

COPELAND: I don't know.

KING: Why would his personal doctor be a cardiologist, not an internist. A cardiologist is a specialist. If a cardiologist is your personal doctor, you have a heart problem.

MORET: In this case, this man was a friend first, and then became his doctors. This doctor treated Michael Jackson's son a number of years ago. Michael Jackson specifically asked for this doctor. AEG didn't want this doctor. Michael did.

and:

KING: What's the delay in the report?

CLARK: Well, there's been speculation about one reason for the delay is that it's actually done, ready to go, but that Chief Bratton is not in town, and it's not going to be released --

KING: He releases it?

CLARK: No, he does not release it, the coroner does. But that they're sitting on it until he gets back in town, back from his vacation next week.

Bratton is Rikki Klieman's (sp) husband.

[daniel green]

From LKL link:

CLARK:... I also think, Larry, that there's a sociological issue here. Prescription drug abuse is the cocaine of this millennium. Remember, cocaine was all of that in the '80s. Now we have prescription drug abuse. Every adult that has health care coverage and can afford the insurance can get a prescription drug high if they want.

Indeed.

[mrsmcgoo]

Last night on LKL the Dr. was saying it (the diprovan) can get stored in the fat, and that if it was used a lot the hair would probably show it. I hope if that was what killed him it does show up.

************

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Dr. Chopra is absolutely right. First of all, it's not a routine toxicology test. I have talked to lots of people over the past several weeks regarding this very issue. Unless they knew to check for it, because it disappears from the body so quickly, you may not be able to test for it directly.

What happens, Larry, is a few things. One is it does get stored in fat. You may be able to go back and look at the fat and test for it. Also, people who chronically use it, you can test the hair for it as well. Finally, Larry, sometimes it breaks down into various by- products, and sometimes you can test for those by-products, not specific for Diprivan. But it may give you a pretty good idea.


Great information, thanks for posting this.

[retiredcop]

And what does your post have to do with the Oprah show and in which my post clearly indicated my specific question? The "refute" as you wish to call it should have been that JC is not scheduled to be on the Oprah show period. JMO

Athena2 this post is off topic. Can we move on?

in my opinion

[Nic99]

Asking this seriously here, no snark, is vitiligo supposed to have affected her, as well, and the cause for her skin bleaching?

TIA

I don't know, but I do know that vitiligo can be hereditary and triggered at anytime in life, so who knows. She may keep it a secret, because she is embarrassed; she does look very pale on that video. Although I remember her on Celebrity Big Brother here a year or so ago and she didn't seem particularly pale then.

[daniel green]

I don't know, but I do know that vitiligo can be hereditary and triggered at anytime in life, so who knows. She may keep it a secret, because she is embarrassed; she does look very pale on that video. Although I remember her on Celebrity Big Brother here a year or so ago and she didn't seem particularly pale then.

She is much, much, much lighter--in fact, pale--than she was as a child.

There must be some health reason for her bleaching her skin, then? :confused:

And for the mutilation of her face?

[who_is_it]

Brought over from old thread


" 07-16-2009, 09:52 AM
Athena2
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 4,404

Is anyone familiar with this publication? I looked at Oprah's site and her schedule for the TV show does not go beyond 7/17. I did send an email to see if this can be confirmed and will provide an update should I get a response:

EXCLUSIVE: Michael Jackson's Kids Fathered by Jordan Chandler
Tuesday, 14 July 2009 20:36

In an exclusive interview scheduled to be aired on Oprah show on July 30th, former accuser in a Michael Jackson molestation trial, Jordan Chandler, confirmed that he fathered two of Michael Jackson's children - Prince Michael Jackson I and Paris Michael Katherine Jackson.

http://www.palluxo.com/index.php?opt...ews&Itemid=104
__________________"

--------------------------------------------------------------------



Doubt it

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/jacko_sex_molestation_accuser_pay_off_suicide_bid/celebrity/67033

"He contemplated suicide - he thought about killing himself rather than face Michael across a packed courtroom and recount what the singer did to him a decade before," revealed the close source.

"He was in a bad way, vowing he'd 'rather die' than have to tell his story on a witness stand with the world watching.'"

Day by day the stories get crazier. It won't last long anymore till you can read: "Michael Jackson is alive".

Both links don't work. As some weird stories appeared and disappeared soon after I already think: Are the executors behind? Do they admonish news outlets with false reports? -- I would appreciate.

[who_is_it]

Why wouldn't his dad's abuse be part of the topic? Many people on here partially blame MJ's dad for MJ's drug abuse, which IMO killed him.

I wouldn't defend his dad... but Mike was surrounded by worse people imo. The sleeping problems got worse with the trial imo.

[who_is_it]

Do you believe Latoya's claims of abuse at her parents hand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLO-sGDHVts

another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYGP0R7CEg&featurehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLO-sGDHVts=PlayList&p=EC3474479831A230&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28

To put it politely: I can't take her seriously. She went to the media and claimed "it was murder". If even it's true one shouldn't do so unless there's no charge imo. She can never keep her mouth shut.

[Nic99]

It's the stage lighting. No way would the media give her a pass if they thought she bleached her skin. This is the first time I've ever seen it even brought up. If you look at pics through the years -- she's always been lighter than the rest of the family and depending on the lighting - some pics look darker or lighter than others. LOL JMO

Yup I agree with that. Lighting can be quite misleading and I saw her alot when she was on BB and it never crossed my mind really. Although, as you say, she is definitely lighter than some of the family, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has vitiligo, who knows really. TBH I don't think the media would be too bothered if she took skin bleaching treatments or not, they just want the entertainment value and she definitely provided it in her own way.

[aproudmom]

I was just on my myspace and seen a bulletin that KJ and DR made a agreement..anyone know if it is true or not..TIA

[Nic99]

I was just on my myspace and seen a bulletin that KJ and DR made a agreement..anyone know if it is true or not..TIA

Hi AProudmom,
If you look on the children and custody thread I think you'll find the updated information there. It does seem they have made an agreement, so that can only be good for the children, because it looks like it is a good one allround.

[CinderL.]

Something about the mystery "son".

http://www.popeater.com/music/article/michael-jackson-son-omer-bhatti/596399?icid=main|htmlws-main|dl3|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popeater.com%2Fmus ic%2Farticle%2Fmichael-jackson-son-omer-bhatti%2F596399

[aproudmom]

It's the stage lighting. No way would the media give her a pass if they thought she bleached her skin. This is the first time I've ever seen it even brought up. If you look at pics through the years -- she's always been lighter than the rest of the family and depending on the lighting - some pics look darker or lighter than others. LOL JMO

I was looking at the People Tribute I got and it has about 100 of the Jackson's extended family members and most are very light skinned..I tried to find it online but couldn't but it was taken at Neverland in 2003

[who_is_it]

Poor thing? He, together with his Father got a lot of money from their extortion scheme against MJ. If he suffered, it had to be from finally realizing how wrong it was to lie, for financial gain, and at the cost of an innocent person.

imo...of course.
:beer:

I agree.

[who_is_it]

I didn't know that he had a song called "tabloid junkie". Just found it on youtube.

Tabloid junkie by Michael Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rXlOVZF4Jc&feature=fvw

The video is created by a youtube user. Don't stop at the part with the Hungarian subtitle. It's worth to watch it till the end -- quite creative work.

[who_is_it]

Part of the song "tabloid junkie":

"It's slander
You say it's not a sword
But with your pen you torture men"
Michael Jackson

OMG, apparently he wrote songs about everything which tortured his heart: morphine (what Athena posted before), tabloid junkie, Dom Sheldon, money.

[Nic99]

Poor thing? He, together with his Father got a lot of money from their extortion scheme against MJ. If he suffered, it had to be from finally realizing how wrong it was to lie, for financial gain, and at the cost of an innocent person.

imo...of course.

ITA and don't believe a word of it. His Dad especially was a very strong person and obviously saw the 'opportunity' there. I think Jordy was embarrassed by the whole thing and felt bad about what he had done and that is why he didn't want to bring it all up again imo, against someone who had been a very good friend to him.

It was all down to $$$$ his Father saw.

[aproudmom]

Something about the mystery "son".

http://www.popeater.com/music/article/michael-jackson-son-omer-bhatti/596399?icid=main|htmlws-main|dl3|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popeater.com%2Fmus ic%2Farticle%2Fmichael-jackson-son-omer-bhatti%2F596399

why would MJ not have anything to do with this child is my question we all know he loved his children:confused: he did spend alot of time at Neverland along with his family I posted the Christmas videos and he does look alot like Blanket when he was that age..but why would it be a secret..

[aproudmom]

OMG this is horrible. I didn't know how bad this child suffered.

Even years passing didn't help him. Poor thing.

in my opinion

well if it was not some stupid tabloid I might take the time to read it but all they do is print lies..JMO