July 27th [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

crazymama

07-27-2009, 12:41 PM

Thought this interesting,
link-
One of the Business and Professions Code sections in California states that

"No physician and surgeon shall be subject to disciplinary action by the Board for prescribing or administering controlled substances in the course of treatment of a person for intractable pain."
goes on..
However, the issue of other possible criminal law violations, and medical malpractice causing a wrongful death, are wholly different issues. A doctor may be civilly liable for medical negligence, if this caused Jackson's sudden death. A doctor providing or injecting a drug that is not properly prescribed for the conditions Jackson suffered may have all kinds of liability. Also, rumors are circulating about Jackson using aliases to obtain drugs, but these rumors have not been attributed to any named source. Any doctor who knowingly facilitated that type of a scheme has potential criminal liability.

virginiabeach.injuryboard.com/wrongful-death/michael-jacksons-doctor-potential-liability-for-prescribing-controlled-substancesanalysis-of-california-state-board-of-medicine-regulations-.aspx?googleid=266320

crazymama

07-27-2009, 01:21 PM

Here is what worries me about Jackson's death now that the latest rumor has surfaced. Why did it take one month for this 5.5 millon dollars to surface after Jackson's death? I call it a rumor because one side states that they recovered it, the other states that they returned the 5.5 million in CASH to the estate. Personally his story (Tohme's) doesn't make a bit of sense to me

If anymore "rumors" come out, I just might be changing my mind on accidental death.

Would it be easy to set up an "accidental" death since it was well known about Jackson's PRESCRIPTION habits? Could all of this be explained as an "oops"?

Let me state this right now, I will be surprised if there are many drugs showing up in the tox report. For some reason, I do not buy that he was such an addict any longer. I have my crow pie in the freezer already if I am wrong. :wink:
-------------
The man was injecting himself(with or without help) with diprivan, you don't think that constitutes addiction/drug abuse?
Hate the sin, love the sinner. But this is not rational thinking to inject yourself like this, even to 'sleep'. It's just shocking drug abuse. It certainly doesn't take away what a legend he was and what a kind, generous human being he was. But he was human and fallible. My opinions.

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 01:50 PM

-------------
The man was injecting himself(with or without help) with diprivan, you don't think that constitutes addiction/drug abuse?
Hate the sin, love the sinner. But this is not rational thinking to inject yourself like this, even to 'sleep'. It's just shocking drug abuse. It certainly doesn't take away what a legend he was and what a kind, generous human being he was. But he was human and fallible. My opinions.

I don't buy that he was injecting himself with this drug at all. Not for a minute.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 01:51 PM

<snipped>

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

I don't know why TMZ highlights his conduct as "strange". Almost everybody would react in a strange way if someone just died -- not to mention the doc knew he acted unethically and probably criminally. It's pretty normal that he behaved "strange" in this situation.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 01:52 PM

I don't buy that he was injecting himself with this drug at all. Not for a minute.

I don't buy it, either.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 01:58 PM

Who said he was injecting himself with diprovan?
---------
Yes, well we don't know if he was self injecting or having some
one inject him. Does it matter? If I am a heroin user, but have
someone else do my injections, I am still a abuser.
Or are you saying he never used this drug at all?

crazymama

07-27-2009, 02:02 PM

I don't buy that he was injecting himself with this drug at all. Not for a minute.
-----------
I am not following some thoughts here. You don't think he ever
used this drug either? or he didn't inject himself. I don't know if
he self injected or had someone do it. But either way if he was
using this drug to sleep, it is a form of drug abuse.

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:16 PM

-----------
I am not following some thoughts here. You don't think he ever
used this drug either? or he didn't inject himself. I don't know if
he self injected or had someone do it. But either way if he was
using this drug to sleep, it is a form of drug abuse.

I do not think he was injecting himself with this drug.

That statement should be self explanatory.

Taking to much aspirin, is also considered drug abuse, if you wish to get technical. My aunt abused her pain medicine but she acted normal. She was the only one who knew how much pain she had and took what she needed to relieve that pain. Fortunately, when her spine was healed she finally realized what was happening.

All this talk about him being an addict and using so many drugs, I am sorry, I do not believe it. Maybe I am being jaded here. I always thought that Smith was a big time user of her prescription drugs, hell just watch her show, you would think so also. However in her tox reports she was completely within normal levels with 10 of her 11 drugs. The CH was above normal.

I will wait for the tox reports.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 02:29 PM

I do not think he was injecting himself with this drug.

That statement should be self explanatory.

Taking to much aspirin, is also considered drug abuse, if you wish to get technical. My aunt abused her pain medicine but she acted normal. She was the only one who knew how much pain she had and took what she needed to relieve that pain. Fortunately, when her spine was healed she finally realized what was happening.

All this talk about him being an addict and using so many drugs, I am sorry, I do not believe it. Maybe I am being jaded here. I always thought that Smith was a big time user of her prescription drugs, hell just watch her show, you would think so also. However in her tox reports she was completely within normal levels with 10 of her 11 drugs. The CH was above normal.

I will wait for the tox reports.
-----------
You don't think Smith was a drug abuser?? To me she sure looked it.
What about when MJ said himself he went to detox before for
drug abuse. It's like when an alcoholic quits drinking, he is still
an addict, but not an active one.
Ok, so you don't believe MJ was begging Nurse Lee for Dirpivan then either?
Many people are addicts, recovering, using heavily, or some learn
to maintain and are functional. Doesn't make them unlovable or less worthy of compassion or understanding. I have no doubt that MJ was a chronic pain patient among his other maladies. all this is my opinions.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 02:34 PM

I don't buy that he was injecting himself with this drug at all. Not for a minute.

I certainly don't either.

imo

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:34 PM

Who is "Smith"?

Anna Nicole Smith.

Eagleeye

07-27-2009, 02:37 PM

No, I'm saying it would be near impossible for him to inject himself with diprivan.

Sorry, no less impossible than an addict injecting himself with heroin, morphine or anything else they want to shove in their veins.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 02:37 PM

No, I'm saying it would be near impossible for him to inject himself with diprivan.
---------
Oh, ok. I have no idea either if he was self injecting or not. Doesn't
sound like it, if he hired drs to do it though.

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:41 PM

-----------
You don't think Smith was a drug abuser?? To me she sure looked it.
That is what I said. She sure looked it but her tox reports did not prove it at the time of her death

What about when MJ said himself he went to detox before for
drug abuse. It's like when an alcoholic quits drinking, he is still
an addict, but not an active one.
So I can say he once used drugs but I don't know about at the time of his death. I will wait for the tox reports. Do you understand that any better?

Ok, so you don't believe MJ was begging Nurse Lee for Dirpivan then either?
I do not believe a lot of the people who come out come out when something like this happens. Some of them look for their 5 minutes of fame at others expense. Again the tox reports should show the truth

Many people are addicts, recovering, using heavily, or some learn
to maintain and are functional. Doesn't make them unlovable or less worthy of compassion or understanding. I have no doubt that MJ was a chronic pain patient among his other maladies. all this is my opinions.

Who said anyone was unloveable? Or less worthy of compassion. I think you have me confused with someone else.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 02:44 PM

Thanx. Strange that they didn't enter the storage facility for 2 months but exactly on the day Michael died...

Now that is uncanny isn't it?

What timing.

imo

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:44 PM

Sorry, no less impossible than an addict injecting himself with heroin, morphine or anything else they want to shove in their veins.

IMO, different drug, different reaction to drug. Heroine or morphine were not designed to put one to sleep or an induced coma like state.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 02:45 PM

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:45 PM

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:46 PM

Now that is uncanny isn't it?

What timing.

imo

Yep. Is your hinky meter going off?

crazymama

07-27-2009, 02:48 PM

Who said anyone was unloveable? Or less worthy of compassion. I think you have me confused with someone else.
----------
Ok, your waiting for the reports. Good plan.

Eagleeye

07-27-2009, 02:49 PM

anyway...back on topic....that still leaves the Demerol and the syringe loaded with Demerol in his bedroom...pills laying about loose, prescription meds in bottles...open bottles of liquor .....remember all that evidence?

If you are talking about this latest incident, I saw where there was an empty syringe that had been used for Licocaine which would have been normal as it is given before an injection of Propofol as Propofol burns like the devil if injected without a pre dose of a numbing drug such as Lidocaine or Xylocaine.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 02:49 PM

Yep. Is your hinky meter going off?

Well I sure don't think it is a coincidence, do you?

Nice to "see" you.:smile:

imo

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:53 PM

Well I sure don't think it is a coincidence, do you?

Nice to "see" you.:smile:

imo

I have a hard time in believing in coincidences, when a death is involved. :mad:

Hi there !:biggrin:

Eagleeye

07-27-2009, 02:53 PM

Heroin isn't taken via iv drip. You are mistaken. If it were thought that he started his own iv, there would be no probable cause to search Dr. Murray's offices, cars...etc.

I beg your pardon, Morphine is given in an IV drip. No one that I saw said that he started his own IV. If so it was purely speculation. And with that let us agree to disagree please.

ETA:, I didn't say that Heroin was given in an iv drip. Although I am sure it could if someone wanted to be that nuts.

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 02:56 PM

VC2

07-27-2009, 02:59 PM

I'm very curious as to why you believe MJ was no longer an addict?

I agree that Tohme's story is pretty hard to swallow! imo

TDT i am with firehead and also have my crow in the freezer ready lol

I believe it because it is to easy to simplistic to say that he had a heavy pain killer addiction in past years so he must still have the same level at his death given the very changed circumstances. Changed not just because he was going to do a tour, it was for financial reasons but he also wanted to show his kids what people were talking about, how he got the fans he did, who he was as an entertainer. Videos don't cut it. That tells me that he really wanted this, and along with the change in advisors - showing increased good judgement and the strength needed to somehow apologize and ask them back after turfing the past leeches (it does take strength for a personality that does it the easy way most times..they parted ways with sadness on the side of branca and dileo, certainly branca was very close to him and has spoken out about his bad taste in trusting the wrong people since they split so there had to be some sort of psychological accomodation to bring them back on board. It is human nature and the 3 he brought back do not need the money, they are highly reputable and successful in their fields). He also had to explain, work with and design his vision for the choreographer and negotiate with AEG the contract he wanted. AEG are not fools. Of course they had a worry about it coming off and yet wanted to do it but if MJ was high as a kite all the time and unable to be clear and focused the O2 tour would never have gotten off the launching pad or past the initial contracts. They aren't that stupid.

Then there are comments from the people who were really around him..from the dancers, the videographers, the lighting people, the management and the team during the weeks and months up to his death. None of them said they saw anything that showed drug abuse and the amount of people saying he seemed fit and together and happy are large enough that it wipes out the very few who were not even around him in the recent months discussing how addicted he was but generally talking about the past. One of my beefs with the "panel" of people who knew him on the shows is most knew him well a few years ago. I don't give a lot of credence to Miko but he has been backed up by far to many others for me to ignore it. The sort of dancing, singing and show he was getting ready for is not something he could have done in a stupor or anything close.

Another thing that made me wonder even before he died was the neverland auction - or auction of items that had been in it. He really worked to stop that not to long before his return to the states. I was surprised that he cared that much partly bc i was thinking of his old persona.

So those are my general reasons. I do think he was still a using addict because no matter how hard i try i can find no way that makes sense to me that MJ was able to quit given chronic back pain and two auto immune diseases that can cause severe pain, let alone getting his face repaired. that isn't painless either. Unless he developed a brand new personality that was able to handle lots of pain without pain killers there is no way imo. That said, i strongly believe he reduced his reliance on them to either maintenance levels or to relieve his actual pain - we can argue if he really felt that much pain after rehearsals in his back or if he just thought he did - and that is why everyone recently saw a Michael Jackson who looked fit, able and great at what he was doing, happy and excited and making competent changes in his life. Actually i think the decrease in pain killer use is one of the reasons he wanted Diprivan so badly. Severe insomnia is par for the course for an addict, a catch 22 if you will because they can use the medications to get to sleep in the end. Withdrawal or decreasing can make insomnia even worse. I have said why i think he thought it was a safe thing to do in his mind, even something that helped him cut down on pain killers.

You see it in regular ppls lives too. People with alcohol or drug problems start getting themselves together and find a job. They have to be awake in the morning, able to produce and they are also proud and excited that they are able to. Drug use or alcohol use reduces so they can get up at 8 am etc. Some then get into treatment, others fall back but its not uncommon that usage decreases.

IMO

crazymama

07-27-2009, 03:00 PM

According to this chronic abuse of this drug should show
up in his hair.
springerlink.com/content/4leaa3ah8q75pndc/
Furthermore, the detection and quantitation of propofol in three different hair segments indicated chronic propofol abuse by the deceased. The results of the investigation suggest that death was not caused by a propofol overdose but by respiratory depression resulting from overly rapid injection.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 03:05 PM

<snipped>
He also had to explain, work with and design his vision for the choreographer and negotiate with AEG the contract he wanted. AEG are not fools. Of course they had a worry about it coming off and yet wanted to do it but if MJ was high as a kite all the time and unable to be clear and focused the O2 tour would never have gotten off the launching pad or past the initial contracts. They aren't that stupid.
<snipped>

IMO

He even negotiated ONE DAY BEFORE his death a contract with Grammy producer Ken Ehrlich for a new project. Ehrlich then was invited to watch MJ's last rehearsal.

Eagleeye

07-27-2009, 03:08 PM

I haven't seen any pictures involving the rented house and needles. Could you point me the way to them?

Sorry, I should have said read instead of saw. On the links page.

VC2

07-27-2009, 03:11 PM

That is why it is called "Buyer Beware." The Dealer is not responisble. It is up to the buyer to check our the car before he goes speeding down the road in a 30 year old car. I feel your analogy is not valid. IMO

yeah ok..i give on that, i actually realized i wasn't using one that fit what i meant properly.

another try. You buy a 2007 grandam sportster. it passed a safety and since you rely on the dealership and the fact it passed a safety (in this case the safety is the doctor) to feel confident driving it. You should have had its vin number pulled whatever program they have for consumers to check their used cars history but you relied on the basic standard of knowledge that the professionals should have-and like me don't even know the name of the program. You are killed in what should have been a very survivable accident whether or not the accident was your fault.

Car crumples like paper and the gas tank explodes killing you. Why? because it had been in a previous serious accident and was rebuilt improperly. You had no idea of the past history of the car.

The accident was your fault but the death was not.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 03:12 PM

According to this link there were surveillance cameras at the storage facility but they weren't working that day.

So how does the woman from the storage place know that two people came and went into Dr. Murray's storage space? Did they have to sign in?

Because if there's no documentation - the woman might very well be lying.

http://entertainment.stv.tv/showbiz/111979-dr-murray-boxes-removed-on-day-jackson-died/

imo

I think some neighbour or passerby has reported it to TMZ and then it was investigated (... other eye witnesses). It could also be that the women made use of a key card and the time they got was electronically tracked down (imo).

VC2

07-27-2009, 03:13 PM

If you are talking about this latest incident, I saw where there was an empty syringe that had been used for Licocaine which would have been normal as it is given before an injection of Propofol as Propofol burns like the devil if injected without a pre dose of a numbing drug such as Lidocaine or Xylocaine.

Yep. Lidocaine is normally given with propofol. That is totally normal and my sense of MJ is that he does not suffer pain happily and that includes a burning injection without a painkiller. Rather like me. Discovered my sobs and fears and insistence on buying emla and finally agreeing to liquid lidocaine at the pharmacy so i didn't feel the pain of the novocaine injection when i went to the dentist is all over the village :blushing:

imo

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 03:14 PM

Is there documentation that they were there? How do we know that the woman is telling the truth?

imo

Why would she lie.

If it is like most storage places they have cameras in place. I hope LE has them.

Isn't LE looking for one of the women who is supposed to be Murray's office manager?

Have they located her yet?

tia

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 03:17 PM

I never saw anything that said a syringe filled with demerol was found. I do know they found an EMPTY syringe along with a vial of demerol - and this proves MJ self-injected how? Also please note that on many of these medications pictures -- they were OLD / EXPIRED.

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46755

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46757

We've obtained documents that were part of the Sheriff's Department's investigation detailing what was found in the search. Among the items ...

-- A vial of Versed -- a powerful sedative
-- Several IV bags containing "a milky white fluid, located in a small cardboard box on top of the bathtub." Propofol and other anesthesias are milky white. As we first reported, Propofol was in Jackson's home the day he died.
-- A vial of Promethazine -- an antihistamine with strong sedative effects
-- A bottle of Alprazolam (generic for Xanax, a powerful anti-anxiety drug)
-- A bottle of Percocet -- a painkiller
-- A syringe
-- A vial with Demerol in it
-- Numerous loose pills outside bottles
-- A bottle of Prednisone -- a steroid
-- Ery-tab -- an antibiotic
-- Prescriptions for Xanax that had been filled
-- A prescription for Alprazolam
-- Oxygen tanks
-- IV stands

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/raid-at-michael-jacksons-neverland-ranch-netted-heavy-drugs/

I think people may be getting confused here. These pictures are from Neverland raid in 2003. These picture do not reflect what was happening now.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 03:19 PM

I think some neighbour or passerby has reported it to TMZ and then it was investigated (... other eye witnesses). It could also be that the women made use of a key card and the time they got was electronically tracked down (imo).

The manager may have to keep a log of who comes in and out and which unit they went to.

She said there were two cars, right?

Usually the manager or worker sits in an office right close to the entrance so they can monitor who is coming onto the property.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 03:22 PM

I think people may be getting confused here. These pictures are from Neverland raid in 2003. These picture do not reflect what was happening now.

Right, that was almost 6 years ago.

I think TMZ confused some because they started rehashing the old case which was many years ago and it has nothing to do with what is going on now.

imo

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 03:28 PM

Athena..my little "Linkmyster Friend'..do you have a link that indicates the storyline about some outsider observing someone remove something from the rental house, dumped it, and the person following them retreived what was dumped?..I seem to recall something about AEG having someone watching the place??..TYIA oh talented one!!!

LMS:laugh:

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 03:29 PM

True FH. This was to respond to TDT's post re: syringe filled with demerol found in NL in 2003 - and that he was self-injecting. There is no evidence that MJ was self-injecting anything then or now. The link to TMZ's site clearly states these items were found at Neverland. JMO

I have an opinion on this also but............................. :rolleyes:

crazymama

07-27-2009, 03:33 PM

Your link takes me to another message board?
---------
Sorry, I don't know what u mean? Did i do something wrong?
this where the link go's to-if that what ur asking.
SpringerLink is one of the world's leading interactive databases for high-quality STM journals, book series, books, reference works and the Online Archives Collection. SpringerLink is a powerful central access point for researchers and scientists.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 03:38 PM

From Rolling Stone who did a full edition on his final days, i do not believe the 10 concert story at all.

<snipped>

I've read your entire post but snipped it for length.

I don't believe the 10-concert-story, either. Reason is that the original story was published by the trashy tabloid "The Sun" which quoted an unnamed fan.

Furthermore it's pretty logical that 10 concerts only couldn't have amortised the investment in the expensive, technically advanced conception of the show.

Phillips said so in an interview before MJ's days but I'm too lazy now to search for the link.

How do you like the Rolling Stone special edition "Hope and ruin"? I try to get it imported and will get a feedback if it's possible tomorrow.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 03:45 PM

here ...maybe this will work better.

Death after excessive propofol abuse
Journal International Journal of Legal Medicine
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0937-9827 (Print) 1437-1596 (Online)
Issue Volume 114, Numbers 4-5 / April, 2001
Category Case report
DOI 10.1007/s004149900129
Pages 248-251
Subject Collection Medicine
SpringerLink Date Tuesday, April 10, 2001

Springer is Germany's biggest media group.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 03:47 PM

I believe that when it's revealed, what ALL exactly, was found in his rental...it will demonstrate not much changed in Michael Jackson's life since 2003........ imo

I am waiting on what the toxicology report reveals.

imo

Nic99

07-27-2009, 03:48 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 03:48 PM

I saw it on Geraldo IIRC Hope that helps..not sure if he has transcripts available

Drat..there goes finding any links..Geraldo doesnt publish transcripts...wonder why?...i will refrain from giving my opinion of Geraldo...:rolleyes:

LMS

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 03:55 PM

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 03:55 PM

It was per Craig Rivera - on Sat 7/18 - Geraldo at Large -- no transcripts available - I did post a summary somewhere on this.

I knew you would figure it out...and I know Geraldo's show doesnt post transcripts...for obvious reasons to me anyway....So, will wait and see if it comes out from a reputable source....TY..I was going to post to you and tell you to stop looking....you are like a dog with a bone when trying to find something..:wub:

LMS

crazymama

07-27-2009, 03:57 PM

Here is a link to bbc news from Music Reporter Ian Youngs, which states that Michael announced the 10 dates. It does report from fans stating this also - I don't really see why they would make that up tbh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7925388.stm
---------
I think he only wanted the 10 dates too. He must have been very
nervous about the comeback. He must of been worried if he could even sell 10 shows or if people would just go to abuse him.
I think once some evil people around him realized what a loyal fan base he had, and how well tickets were selling, their evil scheming began and they forgot about MJ and took advantage of his vulnerabilities and exploited them. It's all so sad.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 03:57 PM

... but it was an unnamed fan who claimed he DIDN'T WANT to do 50... and the source was "The Sun".

I disagree, the BBC had a Music Reporter there and filmed MJ announcing his 10 concerts at the O2 Arena. The Sun may have also run the story, but it is not just from them. Plse see the links posted by myself and Athena2 to verify this.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 03:59 PM

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:02 PM

---------
I think he only wanted the 10 dates too. He must have been very
nervous about the comeback. He must of been worried if he could even sell 10 shows or if people would just go to abuse him.
I think once some evil people around him realized what a loyal fan base he had, and how well tickets were selling, their evil scheming began and they forgot about MJ and took advantage of his vulnerabilities and exploited them. It's all so sad.

I think he wanted the 10 dates originally, because he probably felt that was enough physically for him. I believe he knew how much people over here loved him and wanted to see him again, you can tell by the welcome and also when he did the talk to the uni students that time. I don't think there was any worries on that score imo. I agree that the evil scheming then followed and the $$$ were too tempting and they pushed it too far. IMO MJ would have never been able to complete all 50 concerts. It must have really worried him, because he never wanted to disappoint his fans. It is all very sad.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:04 PM

I responded to your post yesterday VC2 and apparently you did not read it. The 10 concerts were announced at MJ's press conference. I gave you links as well. :confused:

Again:

AEG said that not MJ:

MJ announced 10 at his press conference as I mentioned in my post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_256XQiS1X8

Michael Jackson announces 10-concert comeback

LONDON — Michael Jackson will perform 10 concerts in London this summer in a thrilling comeback aimed at restoring his tarnished King of Pop crown.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2009-03-05-jackson-comeback_N.htm

I've found the link I referred to in response to VC2's post:

"Profits, however, are still some way off. AEG expects to see no return on its investment of at least £20m until Jackson has played one-third of the O2 shows."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6372171.ece?token=null&offset=24&page=3

The article was published BEFORE his death.

It's impossible that only 10 concerts have been planned because they wouldn't have paid back the investment.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:06 PM

It was TWO and a HALF days a week! ...eyeroll....

It may have been 2 and a half days, but it wasn't your average job was it. It meant lengthy daily rehearsals, etc, plus very energetic concerts, so was more likely 7 days a week of constant physical and mental effort. No eyeroll required thank you.....

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:07 PM

---------
I think he only wanted the 10 dates too. He must have been very
nervous about the comeback. He must of been worried if he could even sell 10 shows or if people would just go to abuse him.
I think once some evil people around him realized what a loyal fan base he had, and how well tickets were selling, their evil scheming began and they forgot about MJ and took advantage of his vulnerabilities and exploited them. It's all so sad.

No, he wasn't too nervous but confident. At least several people perceived him this way. Here's one quote by his vocal trainer:

"Jackson had been preparing to take the world back, Holley says, and during the singer's final night, he finally knew he was ready. "You would think that, on the one hand, the world has kind of beaten him up, and you could forgive him for having some trepidation and fear. But he didn't have any of that," says Holley. "Words fail to describe what people would have seen with the tour. I couldn't even imagine until last week when it became physically apparent [on the set]. He was ready to show the world, and I so wish there could have been just one concert so the world would have seen."

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1907601,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

VC2

07-27-2009, 04:10 PM

I responded to your post yesterday VC2 and apparently you did not read it. The 10 concerts were announced at MJ's press conference. I gave you links as well. :confused:

Again:

AEG said that not MJ:

MJ announced 10 at his press conference as I mentioned in my post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_256XQiS1X8

Michael Jackson announces 10-concert comeback

LONDON — Michael Jackson will perform 10 concerts in London this summer in a thrilling comeback aimed at restoring his tarnished King of Pop crown.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2009-03-05-jackson-comeback_N.htm

no i didn't. i think i didn't get back to the board that night. Thanks for the info.

It doesn't make sense though..not at all. 10 shows should never have covered the costs enough to make a reasonable profit for all involved. Perhaps they had wanted to see response to it first?

Either way 31 seemed to be sensible. However, that might be one of the reason's for him turfing Tohme and bringing in DiLeo when he did. I agree 50 was a huge amount, my thought was they might cut down the shows. I think it worked out to 2.2 x a week right? well if it was cut to an hour or an hour and a half from a full show then he probably would have been fine. Essentially each show could work as a rehearsal for the next one once the first few were out of the way.

sighs..i hate all this 2 sides of everything from differing reporters on each subject and then add the slop from years back its so hard to keep everything straight.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:10 PM

I disagree, the BBC had a Music Reporter there and filmed MJ announcing his 10 concerts at the O2 Arena. The Sun may have also run the story, but it is not just from them. Plse see the links posted by myself and Athena2 to verify this.

My post is not about what has been announced initially but about the rumor he did NOT WANT to do 50 shows. This story was originally published by "The Sun":

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2460145/Michael-Jackson-angry-at-50-gig-O2-marathon.html

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:11 PM

link please.. to it being 7 days a week...or even 5 days a week. or even 8 hours a day 4 days a week.

I'll be waiting

I think 'common sense' would tell you that if someone is performing a concert there would be A LOT of rehearsals required to achieve that. Links are not always required for obvious information imo.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:13 PM

<snipped>
It doesn't make sense though..not at all. 10 shows should never have covered the costs enough to make a reasonable profit for all involved. Perhaps they had wanted to see response to it first?

<snipped>

This is the link I announced before:

I've found the link I referred to in response to VC2's post:

"Profits, however, are still some way off. AEG expects to see no return on its investment of at least £20m until Jackson has played one-third of the O2 shows."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6372171.ece?token=null&offset=24&page=3

The article was published BEFORE his death.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:15 PM

actually this is a different Springer than the poster meant. It used to be an independent scientific publishing company, but was taken over by one of the biggest media groups Bertelsmann 20 years ago. imo

Bertelsmann and Springer have merged...; a lot of German media outlets belong to the Springer group.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:19 PM

<snipped>
well if it was cut to an hour or an hour and a half from a full show then he probably would have been fine.
<snipped>

I'm googled out now... but I remember that it was a very long show. There were 2 different concepts to handle it: One was that there should be a break, the other was to cut 2 songs out. They haven't decided it before Michael's death.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 04:19 PM

It may have been 2 and a half days, but it wasn't your average job was it. It meant lengthy daily rehearsals, etc, plus very energetic concerts, so was more likely 7 days a week of constant physical and mental effort. No eyeroll required thank you.....

ITA!

imo

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:20 PM

My post is not about what has been announced initially but about the rumor he did NOT WANT to do 50 shows. This story was originally published by "The Sun":

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2460145/Michael-Jackson-angry-at-50-gig-O2-marathon.html

Okay, here is a link from The Telegraph, which is a reputable newspaper over here, where it states that MJ only agreed to 10 shows and then they changed it afterwards. I think what we are gleaning is that MJ originally agreed to only 10 shows and that the screws were tightened and the extra shows were added, probably because they realised they wouldn't be making the profits from only 10 shows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5821372/Michael-Jacksons-father-condemns-50-date-concert-schedule.html

crazymama

07-27-2009, 04:24 PM

It was TWO and a HALF days a week! ...eyeroll....
----
Two and a half days a week would be hard for someone with
chronic pain, and impossible for many. I think he was taking alot
of the narcotics for pain and I don't blame him for that. My
opinion is evil people saw a vulnerability there and used it to
manipulate and hence increase doses and add other drugs to the mix. all my opinions

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:25 PM

I'm not sure why this is not being understood. The article I posted is dated March 2009. The one you posted is May 31st -- of course by then 50 concerts were scheduled so they had laid out more money. The point is MJ ONLY wanted to do 10 CONCERTS.

Athena, I understood that AT THE BEGINNING there were only 10 concerts announced. I could imagine that the concept of the show was getting bigger, then they've realised that he has to do more concerts to pay back the costs.

My point is NOT the initial number of concerts.

My point is that you say he didn't want to do more than 10 shows. THIS information is from "the Sun" and their source was an unnamed fan. Therefore I don't think it's credible. Everybody says he was focused and enthusiastic. Therefore I believe the "information" provided by "The Sun" even less.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:28 PM

I'm not sure why this is not being understood. The article I posted is dated March 2009. The one you posted is May 31st -- of course by then 50 concerts were scheduled so they had laid out more money. The point is MJ ONLY wanted to do 10 CONCERTS. Again -- I don't read SUN and I did not get the info from SUN or a FAN. If I come across the article will post it but I can ASSURE you it was NOT from SUN. JMO

Does anyone other than me not see that IMO AEG released the video of his partial last rehearsal in an attempt to justify what they did and convince the public that MJ was ready to do these amount of concerts?

Sorry even younger entertainers that have been performing continously DO NOT sign up for 50 concerts in ONE city nevermind for 9 months in one location. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I believe MJ had just resigned himself to the fact that he would have to do the 50 but not because he wanted to. JMO

ETA: The article -- the source even believed he may have accidentally overdosed to avoid the concerts:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-30/jacksons-final-panic

Exactly right and explains it all fully, thank you.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 04:29 PM

----
Two and a half days a week would be hard for someone with
chronic pain, and impossible for many. I think he was taking alot
of the narcotics for pain and I don't blame him for that. My
opinion is evil people saw a vulnerability there and used it to
manipulate and hence increase doses and add other drugs to the mix. all my opinions

To do the performance that MJ did it would be hard on anyone to keep that pace at his age or even younger, especially also doing rehearsals. He was totally physical all through his concerts and they are usually long.

I think they may have seen how quickly the tickets were selling out and became greedier and greedier.

imo

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:29 PM

Okay, here is a link from The Telegraph, which is a reputable newspaper over here, where it states that MJ only agreed to 10 shows and then they changed it afterwards. I think what we are gleaning is that MJ originally agreed to only 10 shows and that the screws were tightened and the extra shows were added, probably because they realised they wouldn't be making the profits from only 10 shows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5821372/Michael-Jacksons-father-condemns-50-date-concert-schedule.html

Nic, shortly after his death I did a bigger google search to find out which media outlet was the first to claim he only wanted to do 10. This was "The Sun". Now in your link Joe Jackson said so. -- Did Michael have contact with his father? How would he know?

I believe this man: Dorian Holley.
http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/interview-with-michael-jacksons-vocal-coach-dorian-holley/267600797

Very genuine, nice man imo.

He says about Michael he's the sweetiest person he ever met in his life.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:34 PM

Nic, shortly after his death I did a bigger google search to find out which media outlet was the first to claim he only wanted to do 10. This was "The Sun". Now in your link Joe Jackson said so. -- Did Michael have contact with his father? How would he know?

Yes he did have contact with his father, although we know the relationship was troubled. I was watching a tribute yesterday where it stated MJ telephoned his father before an interview he was just about to have and asked him some questions and told him he loved him. This was a fairly recent interview, so, I believe there was contact. The Telegraph would not print articles from The Sun, they have their own sources, and are a good newspaper which is not a tabloid, so I believe that what they print is pretty much fact. They have no bad press over here, which is why I linked that.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 04:35 PM

To do the performance that MJ did it would be hard on anyone to keep that pace at his age or even younger, especially also doing rehearsals. He was totally physical all through his concerts and they are usually long.

I think they may have seen how quickly the tickets were selling out and became greedier and greedier.

imo
-------------
Yes, I agree. And even if MJ modified his stage performance, due to his age, it would still be grueling, especially for someone out of the loop for so long.
I have become almost jaded to the extents that some people will do to others to get money.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:45 PM

Yes he did have contact with his father, although we know the relationship was troubled. I was watching a tribute yesterday where it stated MJ telephoned his father before an interview he was just about to have and asked him some questions and told him he loved him. This was a fairly recent interview, so, I believe there was contact. The Telegraph would not print articles from The Sun, they have their own sources, and are a good newspaper which is not a tabloid, so I believe that what they print is pretty much fact. They have no bad press over here, which is why I linked that.

Thanx, I didn't know that he was in touch with his father.

"The Telegraph" named his father as a source. "The Sun" broke the story some while before, quoting a different "source": an unnamed fan. I just said I didn't find "The Sun's" story credible. I didn't judge "The Telegraph" which referred to the same rumor but had a different source.

crazymama

07-27-2009, 04:49 PM

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:49 PM

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:50 PM

Thanx, I didn't know that he was in touch with his father.

"The Telegraph" named his father as a source. "The Sun" broke the story some while before, quoting a different "source": an unnamed fan. I just said I didn't find "The Sun's" story credible. I didn't judge "The Telegraph" which referred to the same rumor but had a different source.

No problem, I know The Sun is a trashy paper and you really cannot believe anything in there. I was trying to find something that I felt you could believe and The Telegraph is a very reliable source, which would not just repeat any words in The Sun imo. If they did, it would soon be lowered.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 04:53 PM

Did you read what I posted? Not from either source mentioned in this post and did NOT come from his father or a fan. :confused:

I am getting a distinct impression that some people only read selective sources that supports their POV. I read everything pro or con and form my own conclusions. JMO

I DID read the link Nic99 posted (and this is what I referred to).

"The father of Michael Jackson has condemned the gruelling 50-date schedule drawn up for his son's comeback, saying the star was not capable of completing the series of sold-out concerts."

I knew the video you've posted (and therefore didn't watch it again).

Like I said above: My point is not the number which was initially announced... but that some claim he didn't want to do more than 10 shows. The USA Today article is just about the number (10) announced back then.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 04:54 PM

--------------
If ur looped out on drugs, your decisions probably are not good ones. You know, don't operate heavy machinery or make important decisions when taking medications.
I don't think he wanted 50 shows. I could see 10.

I agree with your sentence he didn't want 50 shows and I believe was coerced into this by those that felt the need for extra $$$$$. He just wanted to do a comeback concert for his fans and 10 was the original amount agreed. I really don't believe he would have wanted to deliberately disappoint his fans by not being able to perform, but was pressurised into signing for more concerts.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 04:59 PM

Athena--I just read your reply to me re Debbie Rowe and the dates, in context. Thank you very much!!! I have a timeline in my head now! Much appreciated.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 05:02 PM

Oh my goodness who... I said MY link - not Nic's link and not the video.

Please see my Post# 143

I'm taking a break. See you all later

It's getting confusing. Yes, your link is about the initial number: 10.

I have to log out, too. 10 minutes ago my computer just shut itself down -- without my own doing. This must be a sign... :mellow:

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:02 PM

Hang onto your hat!

I totally agree. However, I do not think he will be charged with Murder2.

I do not think he will be charged with murder 2, either, but you never know how that grand jury will decide.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 05:07 PM

Fans smans...those tsunami victims along with Katrina's victim's are still waiting for his promised songs that he claimed he would donate the proceeds from. imo

HE needed the money.

"The collaboration started in 2004 and the pair agreed a deal to release pop songs to raise money for the victims of the Asian tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, the court heard.
But the sheikh claims that the near bankrupt 50-year-old pop star signed a deal in April 2006, took the money and later refused to work on the projects."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1086607/Michael-Jackson-failed-4-6million-music-deal-says-Bahraini-prince.html;jsessionid=ACD43EBCA2B90213A5BBE4A5A24 84FC4#ixzz0MUYseXOa

Thanks for the link TooDarnTired, but the Daily Mail is a tabloid over here, so I wouldn't put much truth on it unfortunately.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 05:08 PM

--------------
its called "working for a living" imo

You've missed the point..........

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 05:13 PM

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. The bag was empty because it ran out with not doc in the room. As to the tape being missing, what a dumb move. Like the cops can't put 2 and 2 together.

Oh, I'm sure they can. :biggrin:

in my opinion

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 05:15 PM

I do not think he will be charged with murder 2, either, but you never know how that grand jury will decide.

That will get so ugly again. Could be the doc will portray Michael Jackson as the "ultimate addict" to save his own *** imo.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:18 PM

THUD...I just fell over.....please list the Jacksons involved in "consulting"....

snipped.

THUD here, too.

That made the movie even more of a piece of fiction. They have shown, over the years, an aversion to telling the truth about themselves. Not even truthful about something as obvious as bleaching creams and plastic surgery.

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 05:20 PM

Debbie Rowe just showed up at Dr. Kline's office. Reported on MSNBC

in my opinion

VC2

07-27-2009, 05:23 PM

Just on MSNBC, Debbie rowe showed up at Dr. Kleins office today...

hmmmmmmmmmmm

cutiepatootie61

07-27-2009, 05:24 PM

I believe Dr. Tohme Tohme signed the contract not MJ. I'd like to see the written and signed contract either way JMO

I believe I read that somewhere as well. Please don't ask for the link, I cannot recall where I read it, but it was soon after his passing. Also, if MJ was as dependent on drugs as it sounds he may have been, could anything he signed or verbally committed to really be taken as gospel? Just as a defendent who is ill and may need daily meds, a judge will evaluate first to determine they actually are coherent enough to know what is going on and can aide in their own defense. moo I'm not sure he signed it, and if he did, I'm not sure he knew what effin day it was to be honest, nevermind what he was signing. No way could he possibly have done 50 shows, he had to know it, as so many others clearly can see just from photos of him. moo

Nic99

07-27-2009, 05:26 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/WireStory?id=6268753&page=1

and here:

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu5puC25Ki6MAl3pXNyoA?p=Arab+Prince +sues+Michael+jackson+katrina&fr=slv8-tyc7&fr2=sb-top&sao=1

pick a link...any link:)

I picked one, but it was a gossip link, so, can't really rely on it.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:26 PM

I never saw anything that said a syringe filled with demerol was found. I do know they found an EMPTY syringe along with a vial of demerol - and this proves MJ self-injected how? Also please note that on many of these medications pictures -- they were OLD / EXPIRED.

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46755

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46757

We've obtained documents that were part of the Sheriff's Department's investigation detailing what was found in the search. Among the items ...

-- A vial of Versed -- a powerful sedative
-- Several IV bags containing "a milky white fluid, located in a small cardboard box on top of the bathtub." Propofol and other anesthesias are milky white. As we first reported, Propofol was in Jackson's home the day he died.
-- A vial of Promethazine -- an antihistamine with strong sedative effects
-- A bottle of Alprazolam (generic for Xanax, a powerful anti-anxiety drug)
-- A bottle of Percocet -- a painkiller
-- A syringe
-- A vial with Demerol in it
-- Numerous loose pills outside bottles
-- A bottle of Prednisone -- a steroid
-- Ery-tab -- an antibiotic
-- Prescriptions for Xanax that had been filled
-- A prescription for Alprazolam
-- Oxygen tanks
-- IV stands

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/raid-at-michael-jacksons-neverland-ranch-netted-heavy-drugs/

Holey moley.

OMG, that is an entire hospital pharmacy.

These were found when??????????????

:ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

He had versed and dirprivan and demerol??????????

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:27 PM

Just on MSNBC, Debbie rowe showed up at Dr. Kleins office today...

hmmmmmmmmmmm

Another coincidence.

Bless their hearts, she had an appt. :rolleyes:

FallenAngel♥

07-27-2009, 05:28 PM

I never saw anything that said a syringe filled with demerol was found. I do know they found an EMPTY syringe along with a vial of demerol - and this proves MJ self-injected how? Also please note that on many of these medications pictures -- they were OLD / EXPIRED.

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46755

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#46757

We've obtained documents that were part of the Sheriff's Department's investigation detailing what was found in the search. Among the items ...

-- A vial of Versed -- a powerful sedative
-- Several IV bags containing "a milky white fluid, located in a small cardboard box on top of the bathtub." Propofol and other anesthesias are milky white. As we first reported, Propofol was in Jackson's home the day he died.
-- A vial of Promethazine -- an antihistamine with strong sedative effects
-- A bottle of Alprazolam (generic for Xanax, a powerful anti-anxiety drug)
-- A bottle of Percocet -- a painkiller
-- A syringe
-- A vial with Demerol in it
-- Numerous loose pills outside bottles
-- A bottle of Prednisone -- a steroid
-- Ery-tab -- an antibiotic
-- Prescriptions for Xanax that had been filled
-- A prescription for Alprazolam
-- Oxygen tanks
-- IV stands

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/raid-at-michael-jacksons-neverland-ranch-netted-heavy-drugs/

OHHHH MY GODDESS..........................WOW
no wonder this guy was broke he spent it all on drugs and doctors

MOO

FallenAngel♥

07-27-2009, 05:30 PM

Holey moley.

OMG, that is an entire hospital pharmacy.

These were found when??????????????

:ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

He had versed and dirprivan and demerol??????????

In 2003 when they raided Neverland...............pretty amazing huh?

VC2

07-27-2009, 05:31 PM

I heard he didn't sign anything but that Tohme did. I wondered if he had the authority to sign in Michael's behalf?

And since this is likely ruled a hmicide, yes Michal Jackson was the victim.

unless he had power of attorney i don't think he could sign contracts for MJ without his approval. Need a legal eagle for that.

I do not believe that mj signed anything without knowing what was in it and i feel strongly that he was perfectly able to make his wishes known. IF thome signed for him, he could not be held to it if shown that he had no knowledge of it imo. In fact it would foolish to stupid of AEG to even try to hold him to it because it just would lead to a lawsuit.

Some of the dates on the front end were broken up and added to the back end of the tour, imo bc with the addition of the 20 dates they spread it out more so it was feasible for MJ to do it.

imo

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:33 PM

I think people may be getting confused here. These pictures are from Neverland raid in 2003. These picture do not reflect what was happening now.

Thank you.

OMG.

I totally agree now, if that is what they found then, that it is horrible that he wasn't charged with narcotics posession ++++ and had the court mandate detox/treatment/follow up through probation--as the article I linked to a few days ago opined.

I had no idea they'd found all that.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:34 PM

In 2003 when they raided Neverland...............pretty amazing huh?

Holy COW. :ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

I had no clue. I did not follow the trial at all and had, seriously, no idea.

OMG. That is a walking hospital pharmacy.

Are you kidding me????????

Versed AND dirprivan AND percocette AND demerol AND xanax and and and and and and????????

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 05:35 PM

I have a question..does anyone know for certain just how much time Lou Ferrigno spent with MJ?...Now he states he didnt see any track/needle marks, and said something along the line he was in the best condition he had seen in years..I would like to know just how much did he see MJ, work with MJ, his acblity to assess health issues, wellness, and fitness levels??..I cant find anything online that outlines his interactions with MJ? TYIA

LMS

FallenAngel♥

07-27-2009, 05:37 PM

Holy COW. :ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

I had no clue. I did not follow the trial at all and had, seriously, no idea.

OMG. That is a walking hospital pharmacy.

Are you kidding me????????

Versed AND dirprivan AND percocette AND demerol AND xanax and and and and and and????????

Truly amazing if you ask me. I'm shocked he wasn't arrested for that but they wanted him for child molestation.....IMO the LE dropped the ball.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 05:37 PM

I know you know it's true--was just piggy backing on your post to support the claim. :laugh:

Okay, I just wasn't prepared to believe the gossip link at first, as many others don't on here, so thanks for the reputable link which can be believed.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:38 PM

yeah...within easy reach of, his then, three year old toddler Prince Michael and two year old Paris. IMO Charming huh?

Unbelievable.

Forget that the kids could get them. They were mostly injectables or IV meds save the xanax, percocette, etc. But HOLY COW.

What is apparent is that there is no way that he was no comatose 24/7with that pharmacy he had in his system.

I doubt there was any parenting available with a parent this deep in narcotics, opiates, trancs, benzos, alcohol and anesthesia, forpetesakes.

Thankfully, they had a nanny. But good night, this is surreal. And he wasn't charged with this and nobody thought to give those children a court appointed guardian or had them removed???????????

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:40 PM

Truly amazing if you ask me. I'm shocked he wasn't arrested for that but they wanted him for child molestation.....IMO the LE dropped the ball.

Dropped the ball is putting it mildly.

This is negligence on their part, imo.

VC2

07-27-2009, 05:40 PM

I heard he didn't sign anything but that Tohme did. I wondered if he had the authority to sign in Michael's behalf?

And since this is likely ruled a hmicide, yes Michal Jackson was the victim.

Even if Jackson was foolish enough to let someone else negotiate and sign a contract without his approval in his name, i seriously doubt AEG would take on close to a half billion dollar concert and tour without knowing that the principal agreed with the contract. Esoecially a principal who was known to have some untrustworthy advisers and had backed out of things before. As much as people want to make MJ sound like a drooling idiot-which imo is far from fact, it is to much to think that the 2nd half of the equation were as well! Half a billion dollars is something you have every clause initialled including every change in the contract.

IMO

VC2

07-27-2009, 05:42 PM

I wouldn't be too sure about that. He has brokered most of MJ's deals since he became the business manger. It is very possible he signed contracts for MJ.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1615320/20090706
/jackson_michael.jhtml

i meant need a legal eagle to address the contractual legality question

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 05:45 PM

OK - had my break :biggrin:

This is absolutely true TDT. I remember when it all happened. They did eventually settle as well:

http://www.zimbio.com/AFP+News/articles/4566/Michael+Jackson+strikes+amicable+deal+Arab

Thanks Athena and TDT for the links on the lawsuit filed by the Bahraini Prince. I was vaguely aware of it, but never kept up with the details.

Please don't throw anything at me, but here's something I found interesting from the link, since Michael's health has been at the center of many debates. Note this article was published on November 24, 2008.

//snip//
The US pop star only agreed last Thursday to travel to London for the latest court case, after his request to be allowed to give evidence by video link was refused.

During argument last week over his court appearance, Jackson's lawyers said the star was suffering from an unspecificed medical condition and it was unlikely that he would be able to give evidence in person.
//snip//

I realize "unspecified medical condition" could mean anything.

( ducking )

Also -- re hair samples and evidence of Propofol. Did Michael wear wigs? How long was any real hair that he had? Long enough to test for long term drug use?

IMO

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:47 PM

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 05:52 PM

Michael Jackson Autopsy Delayed

http://www.voanews.com/english/Entertainment/2009-07-27-voa39.cfm

Thanks, feelings. Note no reason was given for the delay.

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 05:54 PM

Isn't this week the last week in July?

From your link:

"Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter didn't give a reason for the delay, but said the report will now likely be completed the last week of July."

Read that too and thought that perhaps it meant the report wouldn't be completed until then, and not released until later -- like the following week??? :confused:

Is there anything about this situation that isn't clouded in confusion or surrounded by chaos? My head is still spinning from the 10/31/50 concert date debate.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 05:54 PM

OK -- just want to make sure this is clarified since some seem to be confused. This is from Neverland after the charges in 2003.

Suprised you never saw this before daniel. :)

I never followed the trial.

I am just absolutely flabbergasted by that. Completely blown away.

Other than going to the Jackson concert when my kids were like in 3rd-4th grade (they are 34 now!), I really have not followed him.

WOW.

That was some pharmacy they found in his room.

VERSED???????? Demerol, IV bags/poles, diprivan?????????

I guess the reports I have read and tossed aside as ludicrous of MJ wanting to lay like a corpse in his bed for days are not just crazy, like I'd thought.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:00 PM

Scary isn't it? I believe the rehearsals he was late for or a no-show recently were because he was in an extended induced coma. Just my thoughts ....

No doubt.

What is unreal is that he could ever get up.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:02 PM

I agree...or he just didn't feel like it. He was pretty fickle that way. imo

I disagree. He wasn't fickle in that way at all. He wanted to please his fans, they meant the world to him and he wouldn't want to deliberately disappoint them. What links do you have to prove that he was fickle in that way or fact?

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:03 PM

I was not talking about the dirprivan. I was talking about how on earth he could ever even get up and walk with that unbelievable combo of drugs.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:04 PM

Still wondering who in their right mind would trust & excuse a man, with drugs like that in his bedroom, to share it with unrelated boys.

IMO The jury dropped the ball...as did the prosecution....as did CPS.

Well, the parents did for a start.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:05 PM

Did you ever see the video clips of deposition where he was so incoherent at times and even he claimed to not even know a long time close employee of his?

Not the one where he made devil horns and silly faces from the stand...

or even the clip where he is walking with Liz Taylor..he's dressed in silver and she has a purple boa...I don't think he even knows where he is, he's so high. imo

No, I have not.

I have seen the news clips of his coming to court, totally out of his mind on opiates, imo, when he wore the pjs to court and I have heard that he seemed fragile and on drugs in court--but have missed all this.

Please please please someone tell me that children and family services were called in. Please.

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 06:06 PM

Michael Jackson Autopsy Delayed

http://www.voanews.com/english/Entertainment/2009-07-27-voa39.cfm

This is the last week of July.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:06 PM

Well, the parents did for a start.

They should have been charged with negligence.

How horrible.

FallenAngel♥

07-27-2009, 06:07 PM

I was not talking about the dirprivan. I was talking about how on earth he could ever even get up and walk with that unbelievable combo of drugs.

Yeah i know what you mean .......i take two tylenol pm's and i have to hold on to the bed and wall to be able to find the bathroom and hour later lol

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 06:07 PM

----------------

when i said that a faw days ago, i got jumped on. i'll say it again.........MJ should have been arrested.......and his kids taken away, too. what kind of enviroment were those kids living in. jmo

The unfortunate part of all this, is that even if they had of tried to bring charges..it has been proven over and over again..Justice is quite different for the rich than the poor. The worst thing that would have happened, is maybe MJ would have been forced into a posh rehab..but I doubt the kids would have been removed...

LMS

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:09 PM

actually no. He should have been persuaded to stop. You cannot force anyone. You should not arrest and punish people that are ill. This horrible apparently mainstream reaction to addiction is also very much responsible that he never got help and did not survive. imo

No first offender in the US would ever been punished by putting him in jail.

He should have been arrested and put on probation, with the terms of probation being that he complete detox and a at least a 3 month residential (not of his choosing) drug rehab and to continue as an outpatient for 3-5 yrs, with mandatory testing.

It's what saved Rbt Downey Jr and it might have saved MJ, too, and provided a father for his children. Poor, poor kids.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:09 PM

I've already posted them.

Remember the ones where he sued the Arab Prince?

Yes I have seen them and they are nothing to do with concerts or disappointing fans imo....

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 06:11 PM

No, I have not.

I have seen the news clips of his coming to court, totally out of his mind on opiates, imo, when he wore the pjs to court and I have heard that he seemed fragile and on drugs in court--but have missed all this.

Please please please someone tell me that children and family services were called in. Please.

IIRC they were called in, but when they got there everything was hunky dory and they dropped the ball. If we're talking about the time he was arrested that is. I am trying to catch up.

in my opinion

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:14 PM

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:15 PM

OK - but I responded because your response was in the response to mine so guess I misunderstood?

We don't know how he combined those drugs or if they were combined. Two of the drugs were erythromicin (antibiotic) and one was for an antihistamine. If you look at the labels in the pics many were also expired but yet there was medication still in them. He may not have finished each prescription and just didn't throw them out. I know I have to clean out my medicine cabinet every so often because I'm guilty of the same. JMO

I know what those meds all were. Wondered at the prednisonse, myself.

I don't care how much he had all at once, that was the most unbelievable stash of drugs I have ever heard of in 20 yrs.

And I work with children whose parents are addicts, many who I have found with a needle in their arms, when I have done home visits. And many who have traded their children for drugs.

The out of date vials were just indicative of long term heavy abuse.

NOBODY just has versed at home, for the love of pete. NOBODY. I have never heard of such a thing. Versed AND diprivan at home???? Are you kidding??????

I am not sure why anyone would excuse this as some were out of date and 2 were antibiotics. He had a script for Xanax as well as a bottle of them. He had percocette, demerol injectible, oxygen, anesthesia, IV/bags/poles, syringes. That is not just someone who dabbles.

That is hard core addiction like I have never heard of before.

Truly, I am shocked. And it takes a lot to shock me when it comes to dicey parenting (to be nice about it) or substance abuse.

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 06:15 PM

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:16 PM

Too bad someone did not pursue that if they thought he was so addicted. snipped

No kidding.

But there is no doubt he was a hard core addict, is there?

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:19 PM

Oh they were..investigated and found everything to be just peachy.

Gloria Allred demanded it on every news station and was bashed unmercifully for it! And that was after the baby dangling incident when he appeared imo "manic"

I think everyone knows what a poor job CPS does anyway. imo

How criminal.

She should have stayed out of it--her attention/limelight does more harm than good.

Yeah, that baby dangling incident and when he tried to bottle feed that baby through the veil or scarf--scary, scary, scary.

CPS, having worked with them for 20 yrs, is horrible. But usually if the bright light of media is on them, they get to going.

How utterly reprehensible this whole thing was.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:21 PM

---------------

some of us tried telling u that he was a druggie but u didnt want to hear it.....IIRC. jmo

I have never doubted he was an addict, I just find those terms offensive and will continue to find them offensive.

There is nothing to be gained by speaking of any human being in demeaning terms.

I did not know the extent of his addiction. I thought it was demerol and xaxax and muscle relaxers or something.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:23 PM

My doctor prescribed me xanax ...I had some trouble sleeping so I took two before bed as recommended....WHOA! I was so knocked out I slept for 14 hours and a bomb wouldn't have awakened me. I NEVER took them again to sleep, I was afraid the house could catch fire, someone would break in and I would sleep through the alarm...I had a child to worry about after all.

Xanax is over Rxd and over used.

Very clearly, on the Rxing info, and in the Physicians Desk Reference, it says it cannot be used for any period over 2 weeks, and you hear of ppl taking it for years and years, and who cannot get off it without medical intervention via medically-assisted detox.

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 06:23 PM

I know what those meds all were. Wondered at the prednisonse, myself.

I don't care how much he had all at once, that was the most unbelievable stash of drugs I have ever heard of in 20 yrs.

And I work with children whose parents are addicts, many who I have found with a needle in their arms, when I have done home visits. And many who have traded their children for drugs.

The out of date vials were just indicative of long term heavy abuse.

NOBODY just has versed at home, for the love of pete. NOBODY. I have never heard of such a thing. Versed AND diprivan at home???? Are you kidding??????

I am not sure why anyone would excuse this as some were out of date and 2 were antibiotics. He had a script for Xanax as well as a bottle of them. He had percocette, demerol injectible, oxygen, anesthesia, IV/bags/poles, syringes. That is not just someone who dabbles.

That is hard core addiction like I have never heard of before.

Truly, I am shocked. And it takes a lot to shock me when it comes to dicey parenting (to be nice about it) or substance abuse.

Good afternoon Daniel Green. And now you understand why I felt compelled to post countless links about the properties of Diprivan.

Tragic, isn't it?

VC2

07-27-2009, 06:25 PM

Scary isn't it? I believe the rehearsals he was late for or a no-show recently were because he was in an extended induced coma. Just my thoughts ....

oh gosh..i didn't think twice about that. MJ is not the only mega star who is late to things by a couple of hours. He and most of them have an ego which essentially says they are the star of the show. I really don't believe its any more complicated than that.

imo

Roxxanne

07-27-2009, 06:26 PM

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 06:28 PM

The baby dangling incident as scary as it was did not prove he was on drugs though. No one takes your children (right or wrong) for one incident. Look how many times Britney was reported before that finally happened. JMO

But we're not talking about Britney and it really doesn't matter how her case went.

The baby dangling incident was very scary.

Did you see him trying to feed the baby after that and the way his legs were jumping up and down?

He was high on something.

in my opinion

VC2

07-27-2009, 06:33 PM

I was not talking about the dirprivan. I was talking about how on earth he could ever even get up and walk with that unbelievable combo of drugs.

um, you know he wasn't on them all at once, and most were expired/old. He was a pack rat as am i, i said to kay the other day that if i am found dead she better talk to LE because they are going to think i am an overdose of a combo of lethal drugs like MJ :laugh: i have so many loose and old bottles of meds from demerol to ativan to oxazepam to 1 dalmane- thats sat in my "loose" pills more more than 2 years in case i need it- they are going to be sure that was the COD until they cut me open lmao. A few months ago i messaged her saying i have a problem...tooth abcess started and i have 3 orange pills, about 10 of each..one a big oval orange horse pill, one set round and orange and one set a lighter salmony color..which was the penicillin? I couldn't remember because i had been given Potassium supplements after a diuretic and then stopped them before the script refill ran out and they were all loose together. (the salmon was my seroquel, i hadn't taken it in a while so was a little unsure since they were loose too) It was a weekend and i did not want to spend hours in ER to get antibiotics i had. She taught me how to look up the embossing.

Just because he had lots of scripts and expired meds does not mean he took them all.

I am gettting so discombobulated here...TD agreeing with me today, you thinking he was a walking pharmacy of drugs all at once...its to confusing, i feel like twilight zone :confused:

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:35 PM

Why should she have stayed out of it? IMO She was intimately familiar with Michael Jackson and what went on behind the closed doors of NeverLand. She was worried to death about those children....and did her best to see CPS did their job....imo

Unless I don't know how (and, clearly, I am not up to speed here, so that is quite possible! :biggrin:), she was not intimately familiar with either MJ or the children.

I just find the way she gets in the story in every big case distracting, and her ongoing battles with Octomom or whomever the case de jour may be, troubling. She is not the best spokesperson, I don't think, because she turns ppl off just because of her very well known penchant for attaching herself to cases.

Stunned that CPS did nothing.

re: Britney S, her children were taken away and their father has primary custordy and she did not even have supervised visitation for some time till she got her act together. And she lost control of her finances, etc, via a custodian. And there is no way that she was on anything 1/1000th of what it appears MJ was.

BTW, because it's been brought up to my attn, just want to make sure that though I was a very, very casual observer during the MJ trial, I never really followed it. I glanced through it, but was not aware of the ins and outs, obviously.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 06:35 PM

Too bad someone did not pursue that if they thought he was so addicted. This is EXACTLY what we did to my brother and his wife -- my mother kidnapped the kids with our blessing and forced a court hearing since all of our other intervention attempts failed. Still took him time even after that due to the hearings being rescheduled; psycho tests etc. Cost me a pretty penny too because I paid for the legal fees and Psychologist. Bascially we forced Family Court to listen and the children were assigned a legal guardian who sided with my mom. My brother is now drug-free. Can't say the same for his ex-wife though who I understand has had a relapse. looooong story JMO

Oh Athena..your personal story unfortunately is not unique...but say you couldnt afford to foot that bill, and you didnt have a family around you and your mom to support each other..I think it may have turned out much different...IN MJ's case, there was no one who came foreward, even those that could, or might have would have been crucified by MJ's lawyers...and those confidentiality agreements have a tendency to keep some quiet unless they are liable for charges as well..
CPS..has a hard to investigating things or circumstances like this..unless they get cooperation by relieable witnesses..most if not all were willing to lie to keep MJ out of trouble..

Watching him during his trial did indicate his problems..yet even his lawyers made excuses..like "Stress"..and Mental Anguish or whatever else they wanted to spin it...

Mj has had and did have drug issues..no doubt about it..facilitators, enablers assisted him to maintain his course of self destruction..whether or not anyone could have made a difference??Who knows...hindsight is always 100%..Maybe his kids could have..but seemingly..his lawyers, handlers, physicians, friends made no dint in rehabilitation efforts....Otherwise..he would still be alive today..

LMS

BOZGAL2

07-27-2009, 06:39 PM

The stash of drugs does not surprise me at all.
ANS had quite a haul of drugs as well.

I just cannot get a handle on why he did not have chloral hydrate syrup for sedation instead of all these complicated anesthetic drugs.
The CH would have put him to sleep with a few swigs. :confused:

MJ must have also had an IV addiction besides the drugs. JMO

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:40 PM

They've been perscribed to me for a few years...to take as needed...my doctor knows I don't go overboard. One month script worth lasts me approx 3-4 months....sometimes even longer. I think I am pretty much through with them as I haven't had a need to take it for the last 6 months.

Good for you and I'm glad that you didn't become reliant on your medication, BUT, not everyone is that lucky and some people are more prone to become addicted to medication and should they be vilified for it. No, I don't think so. Addiction is an illness and if MJ was an addict then he was suffering and needed all the help he could get, not Docs who would give him whatever he asked for. I don't think he should be judged so harshly because of this, it is an illness after all. No-one asks to become an addict imo.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:41 PM

snipped

Just because he had lots of scripts and expired meds does not mean he took them all.

I am gettting so discombobulated here...TD agreeing with me today, you thinking he was a walking pharmacy of drugs all at once...its to confusing, i feel like twilight zone :confused:

Who knows if he took them all, MJ, it is obvious no ethical doctor in his/her right mind would have ever Rxd them all. Let alone crazy stuff like vials of versed or diprivan or injectible demerol.

Now, don't you make me come up there and clean out those pills, young lady!!!! :wink:

Expired meds work and are fine a couple yrs after expiration.

And, fyi, demerol pills are very ineffective, because the gastric acids get rid of it before much of it can provide any real effect--or pain relief.

But how crazy, really, to have dirprivan and versed and IV bags and injectibles in a room/house???????? I mean, really.

Holy toledo, I doubt he took them all together, but WOW. Even if he took them one after another that is hard core. I mean, there is no minimizing that.

(Pls promise me you will take all those loose pills to your pharmacy and have them tell you what is what and have THEM throw them out!!!!)

BOZGAL2

07-27-2009, 06:41 PM

I used to respect GA alot.
But I cannot stand the way she always pops up in every case receiving media attention or infiltrates herself in the ones that are not out there yet. JMO

hiitsme

07-27-2009, 06:46 PM

My point was.....IMO a parent can not be a "good" parent if they're addicted to drugs. He's been a drug addict for a VERY long time. If he were anyone else, his children would have been removed.

Don't post here much, but totally agree! These children did not deserve this bizarre environment no matter how much money and fame MJ had. Having said that, I don't doubt that he loved them in his own way.

VC2

07-27-2009, 06:47 PM

I wouldn't go that far that you can't use it for over 2 weeks -- just has to be closely monitored by the physician or psychiatrist and blood tests taken to detect liver problems.

YEP! i cannot be without them for major anxiety disorder and panic attacks. Have them in my car all the time. If i am in a superstore and start having a panic attack i have to take one or i will be in big trouble.

One thing they are prescribing now that works wonders instead of xanax or ativan or oxazepam is seroquel at tiny dosages of the normal 400mg as an anti psychotic. They prescribe 25 mg and it really does an amazing job. Unfortunately they caused a very rare and bizarre side effect, when i slept (took it at night bc it makes you sleepy) i got ..worse than nightmares. It was a light sleep and the nightmares would be things like being flayed alive by a serial killer inch by inch but you couldn't wake up even though i knew i was dreaming. it was awful, i understood what the people who are anaesthetised but aren't feel. Totally trapped experiencing everything but unable to move to wake up from it. After a couple of hours i could finally force my eyes open and then i was ok. Only happened on it so now i take it rarely rarely. However for anyone who needs anxiety meds its a lifesaver in most cases. Everyone i know who had xanax before says they haven't touched their bottle at all.

The list of meds he had were not ones that you take at once. He wasn't getting versed the same time as diprivan etc. He also had legitimate reasons for some of the pain killers, and during the trial i am certain he needed some anxiety meds, anyone would. Not to say he didn't abuse prescription pain killers but just that the fact he had a bunch of meds in the house does not mean he was taking or given them all at the same time.

IMO

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 06:50 PM

Unless I don't know how (and, clearly, I am not up to speed here, so that is quite possible! :biggrin:), she was not intimately familiar with either MJ or the children.

I just find the way she gets in the story in every big case distracting, and her ongoing battles with Octomom or whomever the case de jour may be, troubling. She is not the best spokesperson, I don't think, because she turns ppl off just because of her very well known penchant for attaching herself to cases.

//respectfully snipped//

I agree. She is extremely polarizing. Too bad, she because she does know her stuff and is a great victim's advocate. IMO.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:51 PM

snipped

Re: your other post - prednisone -- I believe that would have been used for the vitiligo and lupus. I have taken that just for asthma and eczema but you have to be weaned off that as well. It is used to treat the immune system and inflammation.

Thx.

I know what it is and, like you, I have taken it over the yrs for allergy attacks or long-lasting migraines, etc. It's a huge anti-inflamatory, but one cannot take it too often or for too long.

It was just so random in that list of meds you all posted.

Nic99

07-27-2009, 06:56 PM

Good post Nic. You are a sweetie.
:wub:

Thanks, but I'm just trying to state what I believe amongst all the bad that is being tossed around. We are all human after all. It is so easy to judge someone else.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 06:57 PM

Here is the one occasion I agree with you. CPS is a broken system, at least here in California.

Everywhere.

You don't wanna look at Florida, where they, literally, misplace children.

And having worked with them all my life, I agree that it takes some serious stuff to take kids away from a parent, especially the first time. But, given the circumstances, some intervention by the state should have taken place.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 07:00 PM

I wouldn't go that far that you can't use it for over 2 weeks -- just has to be closely monitored by the physician or psychiatrist and blood tests taken to detect liver problems.

Although there are many benefits to taking Xanax and other Schedule IV drugs, many patients are becoming addicted and therefore require an intervention and drug treatment program to overcome their addictions. The patient’s body can also build up a tolerance to the drug and require larger doses if taken for long periods of time. With these increases in Xanax use come physical and psychological dependencies. Xanax is not drug to quit cold turkey. The Journal of Postgraduate Medicine stated that up to 25 percent of patients who stop taking their medication experienced withdrawal symptoms such as: nausea, vomiting, dizziness, headache, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, chills, lethargy, fatigue, moodiness, crying, dystonia, paresthesia, tremor, vivid dreams, and myalgias.5

The National Institute on Drug Abuse found during a two-year treatment outcome study that 15 percent of heroin users also used benzodiazepines daily for more than one year, and 73 percent used benzodiazepines more often than weekly. Studies also indicate that from 5 percent to as many as 90 percent of methadone users are also regular users of benzodiazepines.6

With this information in mind, the Xanax abuse treatment involves careful monitoring and counseling in an in-patient or outpatient treatment facility. The American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) report on benzodiazepines revealed that 11 to 15 percent of the adult population has taken a benzodiazepine one or more times during the preceding year, but only 1 to 2 percent have taken benzodiazepines daily for 12 months or longer (4). However, in psychiatric treatment settings and in substance-abuse populations, the prevalence of benzodiazepine use, abuse and dependence is substantially higher than that in the general population.7,8 Treatment encompasses a patient’s thought process, behavior, and helps them to cope with everyday life. Patients suffering from Xanax addiction should be tapered off gradually. There are basic outpatient plans available for discontinuation of the drug including: gradual discontinuance over a six to 12 week schedule, monitoring and helping the patient to feel in control of their dosage, and supplying a helpline when the patient needs reassurance.9 Other plans include inpatient treatment centers and 12-step programs such as Narcotics Anonymous, and drug treatment exchanges such as, Clonidine, propranolol, or carbamazepine. Although these substitutes can be dangerous, an inpatient setting where dosages can be physician monitored until the patient can reach a zero dose of the benzodiazepine is recommended.

http://www.addictionsearch.com/treatment_articles/article/xanax-addiction-and-treatment_4.html

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 07:02 PM

------------

i call a spade a spade. And it really irritates me that one of his brothers (dont remember which one) was on tv in an interview saying that MJ did not do drugs. jmo

I think it is called denial..many do that..because they just cant accept what is in their faces..It's a common phenomena...even some posters just wont accept what their own eyes. see.or excuse it...and need more proof...For goodness sake, when someone dies in the presence of a hired phyician, at an age of 50..and they ( brother) continue to deny issues....It has to be a defense mechanism..deny it..and it aint true..Right?

LMS

daniel green

07-27-2009, 07:04 PM

My point was.....IMO a parent can not be a "good" parent if they're addicted to drugs. He's been a drug addict for a VERY long time. If he were anyone else, his children would have been removed.

I agree that someone addicted to a substance, by definition, really, cannot be a good parent.

Unfortunately, there is no place to put children removed from homes, and CPSs everywhere are overtaxed and underfunded and the whole thing is such a giant cesspool of a system, that I doubt his children would have been taken away, given they had a nanny.

But, they could have been granted a Guardian Ad Litem and MJ could have been taken to family court and that judge could have made effective in-patient drug treament a requisite to his keeping the children.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 07:09 PM

I think the family is waiting for the official results rather than become involved in all the rumors and speculation.

Then why even make a statement like that??..Even Jermaine acknowledged MJ's issues..didnt try and deny it..and wished to await outsome of testings...I have to wonder, just what info they (family) got from the second autopsy they had done privately???I realize the state are doing more extensive testings..but they must have some results.for them to come out swinging with ?Murder? accusations..conspiracy theories...

LMS

Nic99

07-27-2009, 07:09 PM

I think the family is waiting for the official results rather than become involved in all the rumors and speculation.

Yup I agree; wouldn't do them any good to speculate in public; they need to wait for the facts and as a family are supporting MJ as they should imo.

VC2

07-27-2009, 07:13 PM

Who knows if he took them all, MJ, it is obvious no ethical doctor in his/her right mind would have ever Rxd them all. Let alone crazy stuff like vials of versed or diprivan or injectible demerol.

Now, don't you make me come up there and clean out those pills, young lady!!!! :wink:

Expired meds work and are fine a couple yrs after expiration.

And, fyi, demerol pills are very ineffective, because the gastric acids get rid of it before much of it can provide any real effect--or pain relief.

But how crazy, really, to have dirprivan and versed and IV bags and injectibles in a room/house???????? I mean, really.

Holy toledo, I doubt he took them all together, but WOW. Even if he took them one after another that is hard core. I mean, there is no minimizing that.

(Pls promise me you will take all those loose pills to your pharmacy and have them tell you what is what and have THEM throw them out!!!!)

god i remember when the cops came on a welfare check (stupid bank called them bc i was hysterical on the phone) and looked rather stunned at my meds, then noticed syringes and a vial, his eyes popped. I said "oh those are for butterscotch's insulin, its time anyway, can you pass me the glucometer there?" and picked up the cat.

So i totally understand MJ having many many meds that do not mean they are taking at once or were leftover. MJ was able to get any medication he wanted, last thing he needed to do was rely on expired stuff.

I also don't think the 2003 find has anything to do with his death. Haven't seen anyone argue that has abused prescription pain killers

imo

BOZGAL2

07-27-2009, 07:17 PM

Xanax has replaced Valium as the anxiety drug of choice.
Has been so for years.
It is used for long periods of time in many patients. I've personally know numerous people who have taken it for years without any addiction problems.
I guess it just depends on the person - addictive personality or not. JMO

Nic99

07-27-2009, 07:18 PM

god i remember when the cops came on a welfare check (stupid bank called them bc i was hysterical on the phone) and looked rather stunned at my meds, then noticed syringes and a vial, his eyes popped. I said "oh those are for butterscotch's insulin, its time anyway, can you pass me the glucometer there?" and picked up the cat.

So i totally understand MJ having many many meds that do not mean they are taking at once or were leftover. MJ was able to get any medication he wanted, last thing he needed to do was rely on expired stuff.

I also don't think the 2003 find has anything to do with his death. Haven't seen anyone argue that has abused prescription pain killers

imo

LOL hope your cats okay or has he/she gone into rehab? Good point and you can see how easy it is for people to judge on what they see and not what is actually happening. We will have to wait and see from the facts. I do believe that MJ had some type of problem with meds and addiction type behaviour however, but I don't feel he was given the help that he should have as an ill man...

daniel green

07-27-2009, 07:21 PM

Good thoughts of Butterscotch, VC. I will always remember him fondly.

daniel green

07-27-2009, 07:24 PM

Usually on the label it tells you when to discard them. I would not take anything after an expiration date. :ohmy:

That is the pharma companies talking! :wink:

Fifteen years ago, the U. S. military decided to find out. Sitting on a $1 billion stockpile of drugs and facing the daunting process of destroying and replacing its supply every two to three years, the military began a testing program to see if it could extend the life of its inventory.The testing, conducted by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration, ultimately covered more than 100 drugs, prescription and over-the-counter. The results, never before reported, show that about 90% of them were safe and effective far past their original expiration date, at least one for 15 years past it.

In light of these results, a former director of the testing program, Francis Flaherty, says he has concluded that expiration dates put on by manufacturers typically have no bearing on whether a drug is usable for longer. Mr. Flaherty notes that a drug maker is required to prove only that a drug is still good on whatever expiration date the company chooses to set. The expiration date doesn't mean, or even suggest, that the drug will stop being effective after that, nor that it will become harmful.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/Prescription_longevity.html

VC2

07-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Thx.

I know what it is and, like you, I have taken it over the yrs for allergy attacks or long-lasting migraines, etc. It's a huge anti-inflamatory, but one cannot take it too often or for too long.

It was just so random in that list of meds you all posted.

i am sure MJ's bone density was bad (one of the biggest side effects of long term prednisone is osteoperosis) and that in itself would have worsened his chronic back pain from the broken he got during the fire and increased pain from dancing and other stressful bone jarring activities :(

Problem is with vitiligo and lupus there is very little else that is as effective for inflammation especially when caused by an immune disease so its life long in flaring up. NSAID's hardly touch it when at its worst and are even harder on your stomach. The relief it gives is incredible, someone in pain from inflammation is going to want it.

or he had to rely on narcotics.

i really don't know what he was meant to do given that he must have had a huge tolerance for pain killers. Unless he was a very strong personality, he was continually sucked back into a cycle of pain killers for legitimate reasons and then abuse of them.

imo

daniel green

07-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Expiration date
The expiration date, required in several countries, specifies the date the manufacturer guarantees the full potency and safety of a drug. Most medications are potent and safe after the expiration date. A study conducted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration covered over 100 drugs, prescription and over-the-counter. The results showed that about 90% of them were safe and effective as far as 15 years past their expiration date. Joel Davis, a former FDA expiration-date compliance chief, said that with a handful of exceptions - notably nitroglycerin, insulin and some liquid antibiotics - most expired drugs are probably effective.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_drug

Firehead11

07-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Well, I read only so far and I am done with this thread and the name calling. The molestion trial keeps being brought up again and again against Coldwater's wishes.

I thought people could discuss this without all the bull but I see that even after 6 years, it is still the same bullchit.

who_is_it

07-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Unbelievable.

Forget that the kids could get them. They were mostly injectables or IV meds save the xanax, percocette, etc. But HOLY COW.

What is apparent is that there is no way that he was no comatose 24/7with that pharmacy he had in his system.

I doubt there was any parenting available with a parent this deep in narcotics, opiates, trancs, benzos, alcohol and anesthesia, forpetesakes.

Thankfully, they had a nanny. But good night, this is surreal. And he wasn't charged with this and nobody thought to give those children a court appointed guardian or had them removed???????????

I doubt he was drugged up 24/7. He worked intensely and enthusiastically during his last months. I don't think this would have been possible with someone acting like Pete Doherty.

Nevertheless sometimes the habits of at least some frequent drug users or alcoholics aren't noticed by their social environment. They act like they were sober... but have a certain level of drugs or alcohol in their system.

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 07:27 PM

I used to respect GA alot.
But I cannot stand the way she always pops up in every case receiving media attention or infiltrates herself in the ones that are not out there yet. JMO

Gloria is a glorified ambulance chaser. IMO

VC2

07-27-2009, 07:49 PM

LOL hope your cats okay or has he/she gone into rehab? Good point and you can see how easy it is for people to judge on what they see and not what is actually happening. We will have to wait and see from the facts. I do believe that MJ had some type of problem with meds and addiction type behaviour however, but I don't feel he was given the help that he should have as an ill man...

unfortunately after 4 years he died in november, but of cancer not diabetes or his chronic respiratory disease but he had a great last 8 years of his life and was quite a fighter.

MJ definitely had prescription drug abuse problems, i only argue against the idea some have that he was always walking around in a stupor unable to function. So much of hype around him is sensationalized to the infinite degree.

For example, the list in 2003. There is nothing on it that we don't know he has used in the past, we know he was given anaesthetics to sleep when on tour in the 90's. we know he had pain narcotics and we know he had anxiety meds. So what is new? that they found them in the house in 2003? Again that does not state what is happening in 2009, 7 years later in terms of level of use. The diprivan is a given. Seems very unlikely he had it before about 5 weeks before his death or he would not have been asking the nurse who managed his dietary supplements for them and insisting it was ok so long as he was monitored. Therefore it makes sense to think that at least a period before then died he did not have diprivan.

IMO

eta and i think that he asked her at all is very telling. It suggests that he was not getting it regularly from Klein etc. She is the least likely to have had access to it.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-27-2009, 07:49 PM

Its possible Jermaine didn't personally see Michael using drugs. And its possible the family doesnt think its anyones business.

I agree..in that most people who abuse medications/drugs do not do infront of those he may feel might judge him..or intervene..Drug abuse on most levels is a private personal matter, and in my experience (workwise) only share that with their fellow abusers..or their enablers...So..I agree in what you are saying...althought question the denial..and claim "He never used drugs"..of course even MJ admitted Perscription Addictions on tape to the world...of course he took drugs..So wonder why he would have said.."Michael never took drugs"...No never mind..It will all come out eventually..and I am most certain the denielas will continue..and the Blame Game will start....Some just cant blame MJ for anything..and continue to see him as a victim of others...and held no self responsibility for anything...But that is fine, if that is what you want to believe...

Out this whole thing, I hope the loopholes, and abuses of drugs by those who have access get exposed once and for all..Perscription Abuse is rampant. That is not just my opinion..but has been shown over and over again..in the life and death of many who have played in that "Ballpark"..

LMS

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 07:56 PM

Why oh why is MJ always portrayed as the victim? Are people seriously claiming MJ didn't know anything about 50 shows and someone else committed him to doing them against his will & knowledge & cooperation ????

Why the need to portray him as the village idiot? Good grief...give the man some credit! IMO He knew what he signed on for and agreed to it. He needed the money. imo

The victim/village idiot thing being promoted here is really puzzling to me as well.

The man was 50. He was not mentally challenged. He had known phenomenal success in his life. He had amassed fortunes. He was an utterly unique creative force. Let's give him some credit, for heaven's sake.

Imo, he either needed or was enticed by the money. If he didn't want to do 50 concert dates, and he either didn't read the contracts he signed or didn't understand them, he should have cultivated advisors who did. If he didn't read his own contracts, and didn't trust anyone else to advise him, whose fault is that?

It makes no sense a phenomenally successful 50 year-old man and father of 3 wound up contracted for 20 or 40 more concert dates than he wished to perform. No sense at all.

It may have happened that way, but this beating of bushes looking for anyone else to blame for Michael's problems besides Michael, is getting old.

Personal Responsibility. What a concept.

VC2

07-27-2009, 07:57 PM

witchywoman

07-27-2009, 08:20 PM

I just heard a news flash that Dr. Murry admitted administering Diprivan the day Mr Jackson died. The information came from an anonymous law enforcement source. The source said it is not known if that's the drug that killed him though.

in my opinion

I tell ya im so behind in this case and need to to do some back tracking n play catch up

eta, thanking everyone here on the forum for keeping me in the loop

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 08:24 PM

Welcome back!

Thank you. :seeya:

I am seeing some new faces, not seeing some old faces. Must have been some stuff going on. :ohmy: I am trying to catch up. It is tough.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 08:31 PM

I just heard a news flash that Dr. Murry admitted administering Diprivan the day Mr Jackson died. The information came from an anonymous law enforcement source. The source said it is not known if that's the drug that killed him though.

in my opinion

The source may not have said so but I think they all know very well by now what killed MJ or they wouldn't be releasing the information this week.

They are just critiquing their paperwork now to get it all lined up and ready, imo.

imo

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 08:32 PM

Yup I agree; wouldn't do them any good to speculate in public; they need to wait for the facts and as a family are supporting MJ as they should imo.

:confused: The family, specifically Joe and LaToya, have said he was murdered in several interviews.

kellabeck

07-27-2009, 08:34 PM

Throw a tent over this circus!
It's only just revving up. More and more and more is going to come out.

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 08:34 PM

Welcome back Cinder; was wondering where you have been and concerned now about aproudmom too! Anyway I still have my old face. :biggrin:

I see that you have your same face :laugh: Good work I am seeing in all of your links.

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 08:34 PM

Right, it isn't relevant what drug bottles he had from 6 years ago. IMO, I want to know what drugs were in his system when he died other than the Propofol.

That is what will be relevant in the case imo.

And if so, how much and were they at acceptable levels except the Propofol. Would they have caused death or did the Propofol cause his death?

imo

That's exactly what I'm wondering. If Dr Murry admitted to giving him Propofol, and that's a big if, what else was in his system? What if he didn't tell Murry he had taken something else?

in my opinion

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 08:37 PM

star struck, fame sick extortionists.

How many suits were filed? Certainly there wasn't a molestation suit filed by the parents of every child who ever hung out at Neverland.

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 08:38 PM

In the words of Joe: The doc put him under, and then Michael woke up dead. There's something wrong there.

Nancy Grace said the same thing! :ohmy:

imo

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 08:41 PM

IMO an empty IV bag that contained the diprivan is very damning. JMO

If there WAS an empty IV bag at all. What all was in his system? Which drug killed him? We don't know. The source said the doctor admitted given him Diprivan that day. If so Diprivan may not be the drug that killed him. Mr Jackson may have taken other drugs and not told the doctor.

in my opinion

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 08:42 PM

In the words of Joe: The doc put him under, and then Michael woke up dead. There's something wrong there.

Those weren't his exact words, and they weren't the only words he's spoken with regard to something being "wrong there."

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 08:48 PM

If there WAS an empty IV bag at all. What all was in his system? Which drug killed him? We don't know. The source said the doctor admitted given him Diprivan that day. If so Diprivan may not be the drug that killed him. Mr Jackson may have taken other drugs and not told the doctor.

in my opinion

That is what we are going to have to wait and see.

But the AP is reporting.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6935418

LOS ANGELES, CA -- A law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation into Michael Jackson's death says the pop star's personal doctor administered the powerful drug that authorities believe killed him.

So even if he did have other drugs in his system it does not mean they would have killed him.

imo

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 09:20 PM

That is what we are going to have to wait and see.

But the AP is reporting.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6935418

LOS ANGELES, CA -- A law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation into Michael Jackson's death says the pop star's personal doctor administered the powerful drug that authorities believe killed him.

So even if he did have other drugs in his system it does not mean they would have killed him.

imo

Yes, I saw that in a news flash but didn't have a link. They will know which drug killed him. Wasn't some pills found in his stomach? What if Mr Jackson was taking some pills and the doctor didn't know it. Dr Murry has admitted he administered Diprivan. I doubt he would have given Mr Jackson Diprivan if he knew Mr Jackson was taking something else too.

in my opinion

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 09:26 PM

Video - Interview by Craig Rivera - Testing diprivan with Dr/Anasthesiologist/Patient. Interesting - patient out in 15 seconds

http://www.truveo.com/tag/Geraldo%20at%20Large#%20tag%3A%22Geraldo%20at%20La rge%22

Interesting. I guess they must give a little bit initially to cause the patient to lose consciousness, then take him deeper with it after they get the oxygen and monitors hooked up?

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 09:35 PM

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/exclusive-katherine-jackson-lawyers-comments-disputed-estate-battle-continues

EXCLUSIVE: Katherine Jackson Lawyer's Comments Disputed -- Estate Battle Continues

It appears Katherine Jackson and her lawyer are still trying to get control of the estate. In my opinion

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 09:58 PM

In MJ's case (for sleeping for hours) - it would have to be adjusted continuously until he is brought out of it)

An adequate interval (3 to 5 minutes) must be allowed between dose adjustments to allow for and assess the clinical effects.

When administering DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion by infusion, syringe or volumetric pumps are recommended to provide controlled infusion rates. When infusing DIPRIVAN

======================

Adult Patients: Most adult patients under 55 years of age and classified as ASA-PS I or II require 2 to 2.5 mg/kg of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion for induction when unpremedicated or when premedicated with oral benzodiazepines or intramuscular opioids. For induction, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be titrated (approximately 40 mg every 10 seconds) against the response of the patient until the clinical signs show the onset of anesthesia. As with other sedative-hypnotic agents, the amount of intravenous opioid and/or benzodiazepine premedication will influence the response of the patient to an induction dose of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion.

http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm

I think I'm now more confused, lol.

So is Diprivan only used to induce anesthesia, and then (in a regular surgery setting, I mean) some other drug is given to put the patient all the way under?

Anyone?

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:02 PM

I think I'm now more confused, lol.

So is Diprivan only used to induce anesthesia, and then (in a regular surgery setting, I mean) some other drug is given to put the patient all the way under?

Anyone?

No, but Diprivan is so short acting that it has to be administered continuously, via drip IV, to keep the person under.

That's my layperson understanding, anyway.

imo

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:08 PM

No, but Diprivan is so short acting that it has to be administered continuously, via drip IV, to keep the person under.

That's my layperson understanding, anyway.

imo

Okay, so layperson to layperson, lol, in that little video with Rivera in which a patient is actually put under with Diprivan, why don't they have him hooked up to all the other gear before he loses consciousness?

I'm just curious about the stages of being anesthetized. I've been put under several times myself (and I never get that relax-you cocktail ahead of time, either). They just go right into the IV with something in the OR and I go out. But it's after that that they put the tube down my throat and such.

I'm possibly making no sense. If not, apologies. :laugh:

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:11 PM

Sorry IM..... I actually understand it but guess not good at explaining it.

What is sounds like to me is that the patient is given enough to put him under and it is monitored throughout the length of the surgery to keep them under as much as is needed every few minutes (titrating - adjusting the drip). I do not believe there is anything else used.

Titration (medical)
Definitions:
1. Volumetric analysis by means of the addition of definite amounts of a test solution to a solution of the substance being assayed.

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=92281

Lynda can probably explain this better.

You're doing fine, I'm the one who is :confused:, lol.

I just can't figure out why all the tubes, etc. aren't in place and ready to roll before the patient loses consciousness.

sunstar

07-27-2009, 10:13 PM

No, but Diprivan is so short acting that it has to be administered continuously, via drip IV, to keep the person under.

That's my layperson understanding, anyway.

imo

This is where I'm confused! Let's say for example that MJ wanted to get a "good night's sleep" (several hours). How much would the Dr. give him in the IV bag? I read about the ration that's supposed to be given but for what duration? I can see where if the IV drip wasn't set properly and too much got into his system at once that he could die, but I'm not sure how much would be in the bag to begin with since it's so short acting. :confused:

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 10:17 PM

Please post this in the will/estate thread. Thanks.

I DID!!!!!! I can't delete THE POST BOSS.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 10:19 PM

AGAIN - PLEASE put these posts in the proper threads. There is a custody thread and a will/estate thread. It is just distracting to the discussion at hand.

I HAVE and I heard you the first time. Stop yelling at me. I can't delete the two posts off this thread.

in my opinion

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:21 PM

I think they are in place in case it becomes necessary. As far as I know, the anesthesiologist sole purpose is to monitor those things and take whatever action is necessary. Thats why it must be done in a hospital setting.

That's my understanding too, and I believe that's what's known as MAC or "monitored anesthesia care." The trained anesthesiologist is there to monitor vitals and provide whatever support is needed.

I do not believe the patient is intubated unless something goes wrong, or the patient has a preexisting condition that requires a ventilator or other respiratory support.

I could be very wrong, but that's what I've inferred from reading articles about Diprivan and anesthetics until my eyes started crossing :confused:

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:23 PM

Imp -- look at the video again - the equipment is already hooked up. You see it as soon as the video starts and they go back to it showing an anaesthesiologist and a scrub nurse monitoring that equipment and the anas is the one who would constantly adjust the drip as needed while the surgeon/doctor is performing their procedure.

The tube you are referring to is called "intubation" but it is not necessary and wasn't used here. It may have been used on you for a specific reason.

Ohhhh, I get it now. Thanks! They didn't "intubate" the patient in the video. Probably because of the type of surgery they were doing. He didn't need to be put way under, in other words.

Yes, I did get the lovely tube on several occasions. Not for certain outpatient procedures, but definitely for all the abdominal stuff. :scared:

(That dang tube can be the worst of it, actually. If they put it in too roughly or open it too widely once it's in, you can wind up with a sore throat that hurts worse than recovery from the actual surgery, lol.)

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:28 PM

This is where I'm confused! Let's say for example that MJ wanted to get a "good night's sleep" (several hours). How much would the Dr. give him in the IV bag? I read about the ration that's supposed to be given but for what duration? I can see where if the IV drip wasn't set properly and too much got into his system at once that he could die, but I'm not sure how much would be in the bag to begin with since it's so short acting. :confused:

It's my understanding that the amount given would be based on the patient's weight and any other drugs he may have in his system that would interact with Diprivan (see previous link).

The duration would be for as long as the patient was required to be under. One of the benefits of Diprivan is that it is very short acting, and the patients regains consciousness in a very short time after its adminstration is stopped. So the recovery time is less, and there is little or no "hangover."

I posted links in the links thread that refer to addicts who self administer Diprivan and do so 50-70 times per day. They lose consciousness for a few minutes, regain consciousness, lose it again, over and over and over to derive whatever benefit they are receiving from the drug (feelings of euphoria, disinhibition, sexual hallunications). The majority of those addicted are medical personnel who know enough about Diprivan that they know how to manipulate its properties.

If you are interested in reading more, I posted several links on the links thread. Posts #160 and #161 on pages 4 and 5.

Please know that I'm not a medical professional, I have just spent days reading about Diprivan, and this is my interpretation. imo

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:32 PM

That is how I understand it too! Imperfect had intubation and I "think" that is what she is finding confusing but not all patients require it at the start. It may be required later if something goes wrong.

Thanks! It obviously makes sense that one wouldn't intubate a singer over and over again, because that could be harmful to their throat and vocal cords (correct?), so I don't think that was ever required with MJ.

I just talked to my girlfriend who is a retired nurse and had Diprivan for her last colonoscopy. She confirmed what we've just said. imo

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 10:35 PM

I think I'm now more confused, lol.

So is Diprivan only used to induce anesthesia, and then (in a regular surgery setting, I mean) some other drug is given to put the patient all the way under?

Anyone?

My friend that works in the ER said that they use it for a quick anesthesia to set a bone, or to put a hip in place, things like that. But, she said you have to have the Dr., a nurse, and the respiratory therapist all there when it is used.

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:36 PM

I don't think it has to do with how deep you are under but serves as "mechanical ventilation" and has to do with the TYPE of surgery you are receiving in your case abdominal. MJ obviously had no surgery and the guy in the video had surgery on his face.

On a side note - this is the blind leading the blind :laugh:

"The most common tracheal intubation is orotracheal intubation where, with the assistance of a laryngoscope, an endotracheal tube is passed through the mouth, larynx, and vocal cords, into the trachea. A bulb is then inflated near the distal tip of the tube to help secure it in place and protect the airway from blood, vomit, and secretions. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intubation

Count me amongst the blind.

That's the perfect link. So intubation also depends on the type of surgery being performed, and whether or not respiratory support is needed. THANKS!

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 10:37 PM

Then you haven't read every post! Someone claimed he was doing great...better than he had been in years and surrounded himself with "good" people.

Those "good" people sure didn't do a very good job of taking care of him, or his money.

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:39 PM

I don't think it has to do with how deep you are under but serves as "mechanical ventilation" and has to do with the TYPE of surgery you are receiving in your case abdominal. MJ obviously had no surgery and the guy in the video had surgery on his face.

On a side note - this is the blind leading the blind :laugh:

"The most common tracheal intubation is orotracheal intubation where, with the assistance of a laryngoscope, an endotracheal tube is passed through the mouth, larynx, and vocal cords, into the trachea. A bulb is then inflated near the distal tip of the tube to help secure it in place and protect the airway from blood, vomit, and secretions. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intubation

Good GOD! :ohmy: What were they doing to me? :scared:

sunstar

07-27-2009, 10:46 PM

There is an adjustment thingie on the IV. The medication is released gradually when using it for hours -- not given all at once.

This chart doesn't show diprivan but it does show an initial dose of the medication being given and how much should be given within minutes:

http://workplacenurses.com/id69.html
OK I think I get it now! The size of the IV bag wouldn't change but the adjustment for how quickly it entered the patient's system would be controlled for the IV to last several hours. Right?

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 10:46 PM

Keeping you from choking on your own blood and vomit and that's a good thing. Just keep in mind you probably had good, qualified medical personnel do this with all of the proper equipment at hand. Sometimes it's best we don't know all of the details. I also had intubation during abdominal surgery and now having read all of this - scared myself. :huh:

Athena, they probably didn't use Propofol on you for your surgery. As far as I can tell, it is usually used for quick anesthesia. They don't usually tube you for propofol, just stand by if you are in trouble. That is my understanding anyway.

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 10:49 PM

OK I think I get it now! The size of the IV bag wouldn't change but the adjustment for how quickly it entered the patient's system would be controlled for the IV to last several hours. Right?

Except, according to my RN friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. You can't just let the drip go, without checking his vitals.

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:49 PM

My friend that works in the ER said that they use it for a quick anesthesia to set a bone, or to put a hip in place, things like that. But, she said you have to have the Dr., a nurse, and the respiratory therapist all there when it is used.

I've had Versed (I think) for endoscopies and a colonoscopy. I'll assume someone in that room with us was well versed in anesthesia. :unsure:

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:52 PM

Keeping you from choking on your own blood and vomit and that's a good thing. Just keep in mind you probably had good, qualified medical personnel do this with all of the proper equipment at hand. Sometimes it's best we don't know all of the details. I also had intubation during abdominal surgery and now having read all of this - scared myself. :huh:

No kidding. I thought the dang thing was just to help me breathe while anesthetized. I guess I assumed my lungs got anesthetized, too. I had no idea about all that other ... stuff. Yikes. Good to know. I think.

sunstar

07-27-2009, 10:54 PM

It's my understanding that the amount given would be based on the patient's weight and any other drugs he may have in his system that would interact with Diprivan (see previous link).

The duration would be for as long as the patient was required to be under. One of the benefits of Diprivan is that it is very short acting, and the patients regains consciousness in a very short time after its adminstration is stopped. So the recovery time is less, and there is little or no "hangover."

I posted links in the links thread that refer to addicts who self administer Diprivan and do so 50-70 times per day. They lose consciousness for a few minutes, regain consciousness, lose it again, over and over and over to derive whatever benefit they are receiving from the drug (feelings of euphoria, disinhibition, sexual hallunications). The majority of those addicted are medical personnel who know enough about Diprivan that they know how to manipulate its properties.

If you are interested in reading more, I posted several links on the links thread. Posts #160 and #161 on pages 4 and 5.

Please know that I'm not a medical professional, I have just spent days reading about Diprivan, and this is my interpretation. imo
Thanks so much and I did read your posts ~ very informative!! :wub: I think what I was most confused by was the term "short acting". I interpreted it to mean that the patient couldn't be anesthetized for a long period of time (such as several hours of sleep) with diprivan. Now I interpret it to mean that once the IV is stopped, it means the patient regains consciousness within a short period of time. So, it seems to me, if this caused MJ's death, it was maybe that too much entered his system at once ~ from the IV flow not being properly set. If MJ wasn't being properly monitored, is it possible he went into cardiac arrest without Dr. M even noticing he'd died until the doctor was removing the IV and MJ didn't wake up? :sad:

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:54 PM

I do have to say that I feel sorry for the Dr to a point. He probably was doing this quite often and then that one night fell asleep. The reason I say "to a point" is because he really should not have been doing this outside of a hospital setting or at least had one more person to assist. I suppose when you are in debt it is hard to say no to $150K / month. :(

Not only that, but as Dr. Drew Pinsky just said on tonight's LKL, "There's not a medical textbook on earth that will put Diprivan on the protocol for insomnia."

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:56 PM

Exactly !!!! I also wish MJ had listened to the Nurse when she told him getting treatments like this for insomnia also meant he might not wake up and guess MJ had such severe insomnia and it had been done before he figured it would be safe and poo-pooed the nurse. Both were irresponsible using this drug for insomnia and MJ paid the price. JMO

Did you happen to hear that "Firpo" character jumping on her chit tonight on NG (hosted by Jean C)? I don't like that dude a bit.

sunstar

07-27-2009, 10:56 PM

Except, according to my RN friend, you need to check vitals every 3 min. You can't just let the drip go, without checking his vitals.

Thanks for the additional info! It seems that's another thing that didn't happen in this case. MOO

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 10:58 PM

Not only that, but as Dr. Drew Pinsky just said on tonight's LKL, "There's not a medical textbook on earth that will put Diprivan on the protocol for insomnia."

I wonder if we'll learn which of his doctors first had that bright idea, back whenever it was MJ got so attached to Diprivan.

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 10:59 PM

Thanks so much and I did read your posts ~ very informative!! :wub: I think what I was most confused by was the term "short acting". I interpreted it to mean that the patient couldn't be anesthetized for a long period of time (such as several hours of sleep) with diprivan. Now I interpret it to mean that once the IV is stopped, it means the patient regains consciousness within a short period of time. So, it seems to me, if this caused MJ's death, it was maybe that too much entered his system at once ~ from the IV flow not being properly set. If MJ wasn't being properly monitored, is it possible he went into cardiac arrest without Dr. M even noticing he'd died until the doctor was removing the IV and MJ didn't wake up? :sad:

You're welcome, and I think you could very well be right.

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 10:59 PM

Did you happen to hear that "Firpo" character jumping on her chit tonight on NG (hosted by Jean C)? I don't like that dude a bit.

I saw that.

in my opinion

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 10:59 PM

My money is still on Diprivan & Demerol combo.

There has been so many links here so it is hard to keep up but is there one that stated demoral and propofol mixed together would cause death?

imo

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 11:02 PM

I saw that.

in my opinion

Seems nurse Lee is one of the few good guys in this saga, though I do wish she'd cease and desist with the TV appearances.

I couldn't believe the "Firpo" character got on her case like that. He was all kinds of indignant that she said Michael "begged for" Diprivan. He said MJ didn't "beg" for anything. How would he know, when it came to Michael's taste for drugs and his need for sleep? He really bugged me, and the guest host should've shut him down, imo.

sunstar

07-27-2009, 11:03 PM

Seems nurse Lee is one of the few good guys in this saga, though I do wish she'd cease and desist with the TV appearances.

I couldn't believe the "Firpo" character got on her case like that. He was all kinds of indignant that she said Michael "begged for" Diprivan. He said MJ didn't "beg" for anything. How would he know, when it came to Michael's taste for drugs and his need for sleep? He really bugged me, and the guest host should've shut him down, imo.

Jean C. is too polite! Nancy probably would have shut him up!! :biggrin: MOO

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 11:08 PM

I wonder if we'll learn which of his doctors first had that bright idea, back whenever it was MJ got so attached to Diprivan.

That's exactly what I wonder. Dr. Ratner? Dr. Klein? Or were there others before that?

Were any of these Doctors using Diprivan for their own use? Ratner admitted to abusing drugs. Was Diprivan one of those drugs?

Here's what Dr Ratner said when questioned during the insurance fraud trial about giving drugs to Michael:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2000/02/09/2000-02-09_crocked_doc_won_t_say_if_he_.html
(February 9, 2000)
//snip//
An upper East Side doctor who shot himself up with morphine while treating patients said yesterday that he was pop star Michael Jackson's tour doctor in 1997.

Dr. Neil Ratner, testifying yesterday in the insurance fraud trial of high-profile infertility expert Dr. Niels Lauersen, was evasive when asked if he had administered drugs to the Gloved One.

"Would you give Michael Jackson drugs?" Lauersen's demanded attorney, Theodore Wells.

"I'm not going to discuss a patient's personal medical condition," Ratner replied.

//snip//

~ and ~

//snip//
During cross-examination, Ratner then repeatedly dodged Wells' questions about whether he administered drugs to anyone on the tour.

"In the course of performing your job as tour doctor, did you have occasion to administer narcotics to persons on the tour?" Wells asked.

Ratner: "No."

Wells: "Drugs?"

Ratner: "What is your definition of drugs?"

Wells fired back, "You're the anesthesiologist, you define it."
//snip//

Diprivan isn't a narcotic, correct?

Did Dr. Klein's acne treatments take place before the 1997 tour? I'm thinking they did.

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 11:09 PM

I agree. And I wonder what's up with all these people who say they are "former Jackson family spokesperson". What does that mean? I don't ever recall the Jackson's having spokespeople before.

Seems to me there have always been "Jackson family spokespeople." (Mostly self-titled, but the Jacksons have never denied any of it, to my knowledge.) It's been my observation most of the Jacksons would prefer other people speak for them. They strike me, in general, as a rather shy and soft-spoken family. Even Joe, in his way. I also think they're easily swayed or impressed or whatever. Absolutely just my OWN sense of the family members.

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 11:15 PM

That's exactly what I wonder. Dr. Ratner? Dr. Klein? Or were there others before that?

<snipped just for space>

"In the course of performing your job as tour doctor, did you have occasion to administer narcotics to persons on the tour?" Wells asked.

Ratner: "No."

Wells: "Drugs?"

Ratner: "What is your definition of drugs?"

Wells fired back, "You're the anesthesiologist, you define it."
//snip//

Diprivan isn't a narcotic, correct?

Did Dr. Klein's acne treatments take place before the 1997 tour? I'm thinking they did.

Don't you just love the wordplay? :rolleyes:

Dr. Klein, imo, will be a big part of all this. He creeps me out.

Imperfect4

07-27-2009, 11:18 PM

Oh I agree, and I believe MJ knew he needed the money and would do whatever MJ wanted. But the ultimate responsibility lies with the Dr., imo, since he's the one who should have known he wasn't qualified to be using anesthesia. :smile: MOO

Yep, the doc is in deep doodoo. Which is where he should be, imo.

CinderL.

07-27-2009, 11:18 PM

Oh I agree, and I believe MJ knew he needed the money and would do whatever MJ wanted. But the ultimate responsibility lies with the Dr., imo, since he's the one who should have known he wasn't qualified to be using anesthesia. :smile: MOO

I agree that the ultimate fault is with MJ. IMO he knew exactly what he was getting into, and found a Dr. that would do what he wanted.

I also think Dr. Kline is up to his neck in this.

Mamie

07-27-2009, 11:19 PM

Yes, I saw that in a news flash but didn't have a link. They will know which drug killed him. Wasn't some pills found in his stomach? What if Mr Jackson was taking some pills and the doctor didn't know it. Dr Murry has admitted he administered Diprivan. I doubt he would have given Mr Jackson Diprivan if he knew Mr Jackson was taking something else too.

in my opinion

And that's a very strong possibility. I wonder if the doctor did a sweep of Michael's room and rounded up all the medications and had them under lock and key (as he should have done living there in the home). I mean he wouldn't have to be with MJ very long to know he was addicted to atleast one thing. And it would be in the doctor's best interest, as well as the health of his patient, to do this. It's different if a doctor asks you if you took something else and he is not living with you, but when he is responsible for you to the tune of $150K a month, you'd think he would want to protect himself and keep his paychecks rolling in. JMO

sunstar

07-27-2009, 11:25 PM

Yep, the doc is in deep doodoo. Which is where he should be, imo.

Exactly! He's the one who took an oath to save lives and do no harm. If he were an anesthesiologist in a hospital and the patient died during surgery through no fault of his own, that would be a totally different matter. But he isn't an anesthesiologist, and this took place in a home, with no emergency resusitative measures at hand. He was actually putting MJ at risk by even administering diprivan, imo. Then to compound it, he delayed calling 911. MOO

GentleBreeze

07-27-2009, 11:26 PM

I agree that the ultimate fault is with MJ. IMO he knew exactly what he was getting into, and found a Dr. that would do what he wanted.

I also think Dr. Kline is up to his neck in this.

I am not sure he fully understood. I am watching the rerun of NG and the nurse practitioner said he assured her he would be okay because he would be monitored. So I think he thought the key to being cautious was to make sure he was constantly monitored.

ETA: And imo he was right, he would have been okay IF he had been monitored but he wasnt monitored at all imo.

imo

retiredcop

07-27-2009, 11:38 PM

I wonder if Mr Jackson was ever taking Methadone? I've heard that doesn't mix well with other drugs.

in my opinion

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 11:42 PM

There has been so many links here so it is hard to keep up but is there one that stated demoral and propofol mixed together would cause death?

imo

I believe so, if the propofol dose has not been properly adjusted (lowered) if Demerol (meperidine) is in the system.

Michael Jackson, Cherilyn Lee,
Diprivan, and Myer's Cocktail

http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/200...ilyn_lee_d.php

//snip//

Propofol has a remarkably good safety record given its widespread use. The average human intravenous dose is 2 to 2.5 mg per kg body weight while the intravenous LD50 (dose that is lethal to 50% of a population) in mice is 50 mg/kg. When used alone, or in combinations with the opioid analgesic fentanyl, it produces a "dissociative analgesia" that is very rarely fatal. Hence, its safety is one of the reasons it is used for outpatient surgery, together with its rapid onset and quick recovery. However, the prescribing information for Diprivan notes specifically that the dose should be reduced when the drug is used together with opioids (such as meperidine or fentanyl) or other sedatives such as benzodiazepines.

[Note added: Later today, KevinMD (Dr Kevin Pho) further emphasized 1) there is no scientific basis for its unapproved indication in insomnia and that 2) propofol should never be found in a home. He goes on to say:

That is some serious malpractice, bordering on criminal, if any doctor had indeed injected Jackson with Diprivan simply to help him sleep.
]

While it is indeed a sedative, it has been reported to produce euphoria (the pleasant feelings of well-being most often associated with morphine and other opioids) in some people who have procured it for the purposes of clandestine use.

The potential risk is from "propofol-related infusion syndrome" - it can produce an elevation in body temperature that is usually not fatal (not "true" malignant hyperthermia as with the rare but fatal side effect of some inhaled anesthetics) but can trigger muscle breakdown called rhabdomyolysis, a rare but devastating side effect that can also occur with statin cholesterol-lowering drugs.

An excellent and timely review of propofol-related infusion syndrome was published in the May issue of Pharmacotherapy by Dr Stephanie Mallow-Corbett and colleagues from the University of Houston College of Pharmacy. The article is reprinted at Medscape (available with free registration). Most notable in this review is that while the syndrome is rare, it is fatal in 64% of cases when it does occur.

However, most relevant to the Jackson case is that propofol can cause cardiac tachyarrhythmias (rhythmic disturbances at high heart rate), especially in people predisposed to cardiac problems.

As I wrote last week in my blog post on Demerol ® (meperidine), Jackson's reported long-term use of this analgesic for back pain may have already primed him for cardiac problems due to the accumulation of a toxic metabolite, normeperidine. However - and please note - that while all of my pharmacology/toxicology discussion is based in science and medicine, any extrapolation to the Michael Jackson case and the cause of his death is speculation at this point. I only have access to the reports regarding his potential drug exposure that all of you do. Only time will tell what is the truth once the full autopsy and toxicology reports are released.

//snip//

RootBeer

07-27-2009, 11:49 PM

Has it been reported the last meal that MJ had?

sunstar

07-27-2009, 11:53 PM

Has it been reported the last meal that MJ had?

I haven't heard anything about that, or when it may have been. Would it have had any effect on the diprivan?

Zenyatta

07-27-2009, 11:56 PM

Too much info. You are making my head spin :laugh:

ETA: You said it yourself: superfluous ! LOL

Here....take a hit off of my Dramamine drip. Been using it for days now, to alleviate the spin :laugh:

sunstar

07-28-2009, 12:05 AM

I think he wanted her to volunteer !!! JMO

Thank goodness she didn't comply! :smile:

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:05 AM

LMAO !!!!! What time can I come over? :lol:

You are always welcome anytime, dear Athena.

oh, could you please bring something for a ginormous headache?

sunstar

07-28-2009, 12:07 AM

OMG! Anyone watching NG? I just caught the tail end of HAT GUY going AFTER the nurse that turned down MJ!

Anyone see the whole thing?

Yes I did the first time it was on tonight. :mad:

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:09 AM

I'm gonna hold off till ya offer some of that "Versed" (sp) stuff

No kidding! That is the one drug I think I could ever consider using recreationally...

Have to admit that I laughed at your "a small crowd gathered" comment. Hope your arm is ok!

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:17 AM

OK you and TDT are getting silly now. Not going to give you or TDT Versed either and you both can beg all you want. :wink:

Gonna take a break and go play some online games. If anyone wants to join me, send me a pm. :)

Goodnight! i'm going to follow you soon, and go watch some TV. Something light, and nothing that concerns opioids or benzodiazepines.
imo.

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 12:19 AM

I am heading off to bed myself.....in 10 minutes... Have a good night everyone!

Good-night! Get a good sleep. :smile:

(Maybe tomorrow you'll be NotSoDarnTired. :laugh:)

sunstar

07-28-2009, 12:20 AM

If it's true that the IV bag was empty; he did more than just step out of the room for a while -- a loooong while maybe !!! :ohmy:

I thought that's what he said he did, but who knows what the truth is right now. I wish we'd get the tox report! MOO

CinderL.

07-28-2009, 12:20 AM

Do you think they could shut off the drip for a few minutes to leave the room? :confused:

I don't think you could, because then the patient would wake up right away.

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 12:23 AM

I don't think you could, because then the patient would wake up right away.

I'm wondering. I think I read up thread it takes 10-15 minutes to wake up.

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:25 AM

Do you think they could shut off the drip for a few minutes to leave the room? :confused:

Good question. How long could the drip be off before he woke up? And is it safe to leave a patient once the drip is turned off and the patient starts to regain consciousness?

Former addict Thane Flora talked about when she would self-administer. Said would give herself the Diprivan, then fall asleep for 5 minutes or so and then regain consciousness. A drip might deliver even less of the drug than the self-administration technique?? Have absolutely no idea.

CinderL.

07-28-2009, 12:26 AM

I'm wondering. I think I read up thread it takes 10-15 minutes to wake up. My RN friend said it takes seconds for them to wake up. I am not a nurse, so I am counting on her to give me good info.

sunstar

07-28-2009, 12:33 AM

I think he's been EXTREMELY cooperative...and won't be surprised if a plea deal with very little to no jail time is reached.

I still want to know if his malpractice insurer will cover this ???

Good question about the insurance, but wouldn't this fall outside the realm of his "normal" practice as a cardiologist?

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 12:34 AM

My RN friend said it takes seconds for them to wake up. I am not a nurse, so I am counting on her to give me good info.

Wow ... just seconds? That must be some wild stuff when you think about it. It can put you far enough under in seconds that you don't feel pain or remember a thing, but it takes just seconds to come out of it. Yikes. Scary stuff, imo.

sunstar

07-28-2009, 12:37 AM

I would think...but I really have no idea

Maybe somebody will know and answer it, but I really don't think most policies would cover something he shouldn't have been doing or wasn't qualified for.

Anyway, it's time to say goodnight and go to bed! :seeya:

CinderL.

07-28-2009, 12:41 AM

Wow ... just seconds? That must be some wild stuff when you think about it. It can put you far enough under in seconds that you don't feel pain or remember a thing, but it takes just seconds to come out of it. Yikes. Scary stuff, imo.

It is scary stuff. She said that they use it as a shot, or a drip, depending on the procedure. That is has to be constantly monitored. She said they use it a lot for kids that have to have a quick thing done. Plus, elderly patients for usually hips or shoulders that are out of the socket. Very quick.

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:44 AM

Wow ... just seconds? That must be some wild stuff when you think about it. It can put you far enough under in seconds that you don't feel pain or remember a thing, but it takes just seconds to come out of it. Yikes. Scary stuff, imo.

Scary, but I can see the advantages too. Supposedly no hangover. Quick recovery time is efficient for hospital and staff, and allows for a faster turnover of patients.

When administered properly, it's reported to be very safe.

The surgery center where I take my dad for his routine colonoscopies (and he gets Diprivan) runs like an assembly line. imo

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 12:49 AM

Scary, but I can see the advantages too. Supposedly no hangover. Quick recovery time is efficient for hospital and staff, and allows for a faster turnover of patients.

When administered properly, it's reported to be very safe.

The surgery center where I take my dad for his routine colonoscopies (and he gets Diprivan) runs like an assembly line. imo

Just like the one here. It's a GI practice with several docs, and they have a "scope" center right down the hallway. I'm pretty sure I've had Versed, not Diprivan ... but I really don't know. I do appreciate how quickly I come out of it. Piece of cake.

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 12:51 AM

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g8-DEMtAE9q4i4ySQ0eV_qZefmRQD99N6QM01

"room Jackson slept in as outfitted with oxygen tanks and an IV drip. Another of his bedrooms was a shambles, with clothes and other items strewn about and handwritten notes stuck on the walls."

The a shambles description doesn't surprise me. Some of those photos from the Neverland raid left me with the impression MJ wasn't exactly a neat freak.

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 12:58 AM

The a shambles description doesn't surprise me. Some of those photos from the Neverland raid left me with the impression MJ wasn't exactly a neat freak.

Me too. My gut feeling told me that LE probably had trouble finding things in that mess. Not that my desk looks any better right now.

VC2

07-28-2009, 12:59 AM

Goodnight! i'm going to follow you soon, and go watch some TV. Something light, and nothing that concerns opioids or benzodiazepines.
imo.

Well i am taking my normal sleeping pill every 2 days, rhovane :laugh: Zopiclone, a benzodiazepine-like drug was introduced and initially promoted as having less dependence and withdrawal than traditional benzodiazepine drugs. However, zopiclone may have an even greater addictive potential than benzodiazepines and has been described as a "benzodiazepine in disguise".[26][27][28] Tolerance to the effects of zopiclone can develop after a few weeks. Long term use should be avoided. Abrupt withdrawal particularly with prolonged and high doses can in severe cases cause seizures and delirium.[29][30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopiclone I take it regularly and have for 2 years every 2 days. All the psych meds i am on for my two clinical illnesses - chronic treatment resistant major depression and major anxiety disorder - plus their own effects give me severe insomnia and without sleep i am far worse than any side effect

just stumbled across an amazing information site.. i can't even describe it, just press enter at the opening page bc the next page is FULL of info and in a really interesting way. the first page looks like its a joke but not really. http://www.dysthymia.com/ Probably one of the best descriptions of both the neurological effects and the real life ones in a FUN way that makes sense i have read apart from the book "The Biochemical Basis of Neuropharmacology" by Jack R. Cooper.

If there is one thing i wish we could discuss during this case is the actual effects and why/how people take them than just the sensationalized "Michael Jackson was an addict and therefore useless" meme.

IMO

eta i never mentioned it before but my major was neuropsychiatry so apart from a later disease reason i have a basis in the whys and wherefores as perhaps my favorite book tells you.

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 01:04 AM

Me too. My gut feeling told me that LE probably had trouble finding things in that mess. Not that my desk looks any better right now.

Surely you're not printing out the info at all those links you've provided, are you? :scared:

:laugh:

Imperfect4

07-28-2009, 01:09 AM

Night, folks. :seeya:

Zenyatta

07-28-2009, 01:12 AM

Surely you're not printing out the info at all those links you've provided, are you? :scared:

:laugh:

OMG....I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I went as far as labeling a manila file folder "Propofol" before I came to my senses!

Goodnight!

VC2

07-28-2009, 01:17 AM

If it's true that the IV bag was empty; he did more than just step out of the room for a while -- a loooong while maybe !!! :ohmy:

Not necessarily. We have a report that the bag was empty and a report there was a needle in his arm.

Well much as i hate to defend him, one of the first things i would have done as a physician and noticed him either with a thready barely noticeable pulse or no pulse is to attach a bag of plasmalyte or its equivalent to the IV and opened the stop cock full on to flood his system with fluid and electrolytes. One of the big dangers of diprivan is low blood pressure, best way to describe the connection is when someone is bleeding badly their blood pressure drops due to loss of blood. Replacing the fluid level at the least can help things. Even a bag of saline would do it

I actually expect an empty IV bag now i think of it unless he was more incompetent than i thought. I am no doctor or nurse but i have 2 bags in my vegetable drawer at the moment. Always kept on hand and replaced when expired. One in case of illness, if a cat is sick even with "cold like" symptoms the fastest way to turn them around can be 150 ml of fluids. In fact my scootch with respiratory disease, any time he seemed to sound "sticky" got sub q fluids via an iv bag under his skin and often he got pneumonia and i could reverse its course in 24 hours partly due to immediate giving of luids. in fact some times one hour did it, he once was stumbling so weak he could not walk properly. Vet was sure euthanasia was the next step but once i got him home and gave him the fluids (early in his chronic disease i did not have bags on hand) he did a 360. Still sick but able to fight it until the doxycycline took effect. Fluids have incredible restorative powers, it can reverse shock in traumatic accidents and more. In fact i no longer just drink diet coke with a cold :biggrin: but actually lots of water too!!!!! i have learned there was a reason for the "drink plenty of fluids"

So long story short an empty bag actually can be telling us that he did the right thing at that time (among all the wrong), not necessarily he left the room for 10 minutes. He would only have had to change the bag which takes seconds (if that, not sure if diprivan is given through a port or mixed with the bag itself)

VC2

07-28-2009, 02:18 AM

well i guess i am talking to myself..and here i thought it was interesting info :P

VC2

07-28-2009, 02:35 AM

Well now....that makes perfect sense....I have seen it work near miracles with animals as well....never even considered it in this case.

A GOLD STAR for you!!!

Why ty ty! I would take a bow if i could but in thanks i will give you an applause: http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3456/bwavobunny.jpg (bwavo bunny is adowable)

Yes it does work near miracles with them, which is why i have two bags and iv syringes on hand at all times. One for illness and one if there is an accidnt. My vet is 45 minutes away(there are ones in between but he is in the major hospital with mri's, surgical subpecialties and most importantly trauma doctors along with the general practic Given the golden hour to treat shock i would rather take 5 minutes and give him 100-200 cc's if hit by a car before i drive him/her. course i use a coat hanger on pole across the head of my bed as an iv pole lol. Isn't it a miracle to see nothing but a bag of fluids save a life?

In all seriousness i think the empty bag must have been from that unless he lost all medical knowledge. He had the bags in the room to give the diprivan with and it is the first thing all paremedics do, get a line going for fluids and it also gives an easy port for other meds..in murrays case, keep the line in the arm even tho the bag was empty so they could use it without mussing and fussing for another vein. Maybe he was dead when they got there especially since he had no rescue equipment but that would be the first thing to do if there was any hope

VC2

07-28-2009, 02:42 AM

you just got a "gold star" for posting that? It is interesting and could explain the empty bag, but didn´t save him.

IMO needing money is no excuse or justification for what this doctor did at all.

I didn't say it was. What i said is that he will lose everything he had or owned including his license, his home, his income and his ability to care for his wife and kids at age 56 from being weak, greedy and believing he was competent. No way an excuse but a lot of punishment.

I got the gold star for giving a very logical reason there was an empty bag rather than assuming it had to do wtih him walking out of the room for a half hour and the whole thing ran into mj's system ..the diprivan. Much more likely it was a bag of plain plasmalyte or saline. Even a first year med student would have used that as a hail mary to get his blood pressure up. at least i think that was what the star was for lol. Does not make him less incompetent, only discussing the reason for the empty bag is probably not what the assumption is.