7/25

[flipflop]

Experts: Jackson case now a full criminal probe
‘This is about building a criminal case,’ not cause of death, lawyer says

The documents seized from his clinic included a “suspension notice” from Doctor’s Hospital in Houston as well as “papers regarding incomplete chart” at the same hospital. Also on the list was an expired medical board certificate.

“I can hear the prosecution opening statement in this case already,” Geragos said. “They’re going to talk about a doctor who had privileges suspended at a hospital for poor record keeping, has financial difficulties and now he gets this once in a lifetime opportunity to get a large paycheck and be the live-in doctor to Michael Jackson.”


Greg Scott, a former U.S. attorney and district attorney in California, said it will take strong evidence to lead prosecutors to make the leap from finding negligence to finding criminal negligence, the basis of a manslaughter charge. Even if a charge is filed, he said prosecutors won’t have an easy time at trial.

“Cases against doctors are extremely difficult,” he said. “A jury is being asked to second guess the decisions of a trained professional and we usually don’t do that. If a doctor tells us to do something, we do it.”

He noted that the standard for conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt and, “If the defense finds even one doctor to testify this was proper treatment, that’s reasonable doubt.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32133053/?gt1=43001


Where are they going to find a doctor who will get on the stand and say...Administering propofol at home? Sure, this is proper treatment. We doctors do it all the time.

[flipflop]

I read that before and didn´t really understand what Greg Scott meant. Is there any doctor that would testify that propofol or deprivan was proper treatment? I cannot imagine.


Lol, I know. If they do find a doctor to say it's proper treatment I'm thinking he won't have too many patients after his testimony. :smile:

[flipflop]

Jackson false nose was missing after death

http://movies.ndtv.com/movie_story.aspx?section=Movies&id=ENTEN20090102666&keyword=music

I had read an MSNBC article yesterday about that. If its true that is just horrible.

[VC2]

From the article today, am sort of shocked at how Branca and Mclaine "recovered" 5 million dollars cash from former financial advisors as per cnn. http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/24/michael.jackson.estate/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

I am shocked that any former advisor HAD 5 million of MJ's money and deeply disturbed by it. they don't say how it was recovered but imo its pretty clear that it was not handed to them voluntarily or the word recovered would not be used.

Seems branca and team were able to discover money was missing that belonged to mj and then went to twist the appropriate arms to recover it.

Makes me wonder how often his financial team just simply did not pay the bills he thought were being paid? Yes he was financially irresponsible, there is no doubt of that but seems to me that even when he had a good reason to think things were being taken care of by his financial ppl, they weren't.

it really is to much..seems like his own issues were one thing but sadly the leeches around him were willy nilly doing anything they wanted. Branca in an interview in the last 8 years or so, said that MJ was a brilliant business man, i think he meant in terms of coming up with ideas and designing things that were geared to making money, but sadly had the ability to choose the worst in people and advisors around him, trusting all the wrong people.

I hope the reason the court documents filed yesterday did not disclose how the 5 million was recovered is because LE has been contacted and it is under investigation..i really really hope so.

imo

eta i think the fact he brought the old team that was responsible for the financial and entertainment success of his back speaks volumes to how he had actually started getting his life back in some sort of order, and climbing out of the hole he found himself in. That his family was claiming he shut them out the last few months...imo has far more to do with the fact that his leeches were no longer going to them as spies or perhaps even placed by family, rather like oxman was.

It even crosses my mind to wonder if the 5 million dollars had been not for the former advisors own use but had been peeled away from its legitimate use to go to Joe. i suppose that is to much of a conspiracy theory

just boggles me, 5 million dollars cash "recovered" from a financial advisor.

[flipflop]

1 more thing, in the pic of him in ambulance it was there.

Yeah I saw that. I don't know what to believe. It is sick if it is true and someone took it.

[KatieLady]

Medical files went missing just hours before Jacko died

http://www.herald.ie/world-news/medical-files-went-missing-just-hours-before-jacko-died-1840722.html

If this is true....it sure makes you wonder about his health before he passed. There had to be something going on??

[crazymama]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out. I have been reading there
have been deaths with this method from well, sloppy doctoring.
MJ apparently had another insurance medical exam to pass
before the concert.
.novusdetox.com/faq.php
While Rapid Detox promises that it will be a rapid process, the time for the detoxification program that they are describing is the actual time when the patient is under general anesthesia. Because of the strong drugs used and the shock this detoxification gives your body, most people require upwards of three to six days just to recover from being under this long. They also often have severe side effects. Rapid Detox claims that you can detox from a drug while under anesthesia for six to eight hours. However, Rapid Detox centers do not tell you that, like any time that you are under anesthesia for this long and because of the strong drug used for detoxification that is injected in your body, recuperation often takes from a few uncomfortable days to several weeks.

[Dunlurken]

Medical files went missing just hours before Jacko died

http://www.herald.ie/world-news/medical-files-went-missing-just-hours-before-jacko-died-1840722.html

If this is true, which I believe it is, this so-called Doctor should be charged with manslaughter, not involuntary manslaughter where he could only get three years.

No wonder the guy is in hiding and has lawyered up. He knows he's guilty of murder. Just waiting for the charges to come down and see what they will be.

A doctor at the bedside of a dying man, being paid $150,000 a month by a drug addict? Not any kind of doctor I want to have. JMO.

Michael is not responsible for his death. The money hungry syncophiles are. JMO.

[KatieLady]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out. I have been reading there
have been deaths with this method from well, sloppy doctoring.
MJ apparently had another insurance medical exam to pass
before the concert.
.novusdetox.com/faq.php
While Rapid Detox promises that it will be a rapid process, the time for the detoxification program that they are describing is the actual time when the patient is under general anesthesia. Because of the strong drugs used and the shock this detoxification gives your body, most people require upwards of three to six days just to recover from being under this long. They also often have severe side effects. Rapid Detox claims that you can detox from a drug while under anesthesia for six to eight hours. However, Rapid Detox centers do not tell you that, like any time that you are under anesthesia for this long and because of the strong drug used for detoxification that is injected in your body, recuperation often takes from a few uncomfortable days to several weeks.

But would Dr. Murray have reason to believe that MJ would not live thru that? Is that why, even before MJ passed, he was getting rid of his files? So many questions.....

[RootBeer]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out. I have been reading there
have been deaths with this method from well, sloppy doctoring.
MJ apparently had another insurance medical exam to pass
before the concert.
.novusdetox.com/faq.php
While Rapid Detox promises that it will be a rapid process, the time for the detoxification program that they are describing is the actual time when the patient is under general anesthesia. Because of the strong drugs used and the shock this detoxification gives your body, most people require upwards of three to six days just to recover from being under this long. They also often have severe side effects. Rapid Detox claims that you can detox from a drug while under anesthesia for six to eight hours. However, Rapid Detox centers do not tell you that, like any time that you are under anesthesia for this long and because of the strong drug used for detoxification that is injected in your body, recuperation often takes from a few uncomfortable days to several weeks.

I saw an episode of ER where Dr. Ross did that to a baby that was addicted.

[Zenyatta]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out. I have been reading there
have been deaths with this method from well, sloppy doctoring.
MJ apparently had another insurance medical exam to pass
before the concert.
.novusdetox.com/faq.php
While Rapid Detox promises that it will be a rapid process, the time for the detoxification program that they are describing is the actual time when the patient is under general anesthesia. Because of the strong drugs used and the shock this detoxification gives your body, most people require upwards of three to six days just to recover from being under this long. They also often have severe side effects. Rapid Detox claims that you can detox from a drug while under anesthesia for six to eight hours. However, Rapid Detox centers do not tell you that, like any time that you are under anesthesia for this long and because of the strong drug used for detoxification that is injected in your body, recuperation often takes from a few uncomfortable days to several weeks.

Good morning Crazy Mama,

It's possible Murray could say that.

However, according to at least one source, Diprivan might not be the best choice for detoxing:

"How to understand the Dangers of Diprovan abuse"

http://www.howcast.com/guides/3613-How-To-Understand-the-Dangers-Of-Diprivan-Propofol-Abuse

//snip//
Recovering drug addicts are cautioned against receiving Diprivan because it can trigger a relapse.
//snip//

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Personally I believe MJ was long dead before that 911 call was made. The time in between was attempting to cover his tracks. JMO

It sure does seem that way Athena..LOL..it does seem "Crow" will not be on my menue.eh?...Anyway, for Dr. Murray, his problem is not just what went down at MJ's house on the 25th June..but his frenzy of suspicious behaviors before the 911 call, and post 911 call..Isnt it always the way....its the coverups that come backto haunt you ...I for one would love to hear what Stacey Howe has to say..however seems she is AWOL at present...hummmm.wonder just where she is right now?

LMS:seeya:

[crazymama]

But would Dr. Murray have reason to believe that MJ would not live thru that? Is that why, even before MJ passed, he was getting rid of his files? So many questions.....
-----------------
Hmm, got rid of his files before MJ passed?
What I was thinking was he was detoxing him and using
the vitamins ladys cocktail to flush his system. And that
when he said he never gave MJ narcotics, that was what he was
trying to flush from his system.
Another thing would you let someone give this to you alone if
you were MJ. He barely knew this dr. How would he trust him
not to take nudie pics of him or something when he was out. There had to be someone else present.

[KatieLady]

Personally I believe MJ was long dead before that 911 call was made. The time in between was attempting to cover his tracks. JMO

if this story is true it would sure confirm it for me IMO

[RootBeer]

Indeed it boggles the mind. It also shows these executors are extremely good. imo

It will take at least a few years for the executors to pay off MJ's debts and settle his estate. They have a huge job to do. jmo

[Zenyatta]

Good morning all :)


How's this for a plot twist? Yesterday we broke the story that the Special Administrators of Michael Jackson's estate filed legal papers saying they just recovered $5.5 million is cash from a former financial advisor. The advisor is Dr. Tohme Tohme, who got involved with Jackson in the last year-and-a-half of his life, and he claims the money was "a secret."

In an interview last night, Dr. Tohme said the money came from recording residuals and that "It was a secret between Michael and me."

Dr. Tohme claims the money was going to be used for a Las Vegas "dream home."

Tohme says Michael implored him, "Don't tell anyone about the money." He says when the singer died, he came forward and said he had the stash.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/25/michael-jackson-dr-tohme-tohme-probate-special-administrators-secret/


This is the home that MJ wanted in Vegas to be called "Wonderland"

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/michael-jacksons-wonderland/646518569

Good morning, Athena! Do you think Dr. Tohme is credible? I think you started to tell us more about him the other day, didn't you?

Here's another twist -- last night I posted some links concerning the good Doctor Neil Ratner, the anesthesiologist MJ used on his tour. He has quite a history:

"Crocked Doc Won't Say if he gave drugs to Jax"
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ay_if_he_.html

//snip//
Ratner, a 49-year-old ex-rock 'n' roll drummer and manager of Peter Frampton and Edgar Winter, has been on the stand for days, admitting he repeatedly took drugs while caring for patients during the 1980s.

In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.

Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.

Lauersen is accused of lying to insurers to make them pay for $2.2 million in infertility treatments the companies traditionally don't cover. Ratner was Lauersen's chief anesthesiologist for the past decade.

Ratner, who graduated from a medical school in Mexico and cut his ponytail two weeks before trial, said he traveled with Jackson as paid tour doctor during the African leg of the singer's 1997 world tour.
//snip//

(Be sure to read the rest of the link if you're interested in what Ratner had to say on the stand when being questioned about adminstering drugs to Michael. Talk about evasive!)

"Jackson Doctor wanted Michael to live near him"
http://www.showbiz411.com/jackson-mi...niels-lauersen

//snip//
But little by little stories are emerging about Ratner, a doctor who was suspended from practicing medicine for three years in 2002 as the result of an insurance fraud scheme that involved New York obstetrician-gynecologist Dr. Niels Lauersen, the ex-boyfriend of songwriter/socialitie Denise Rich.
//snip//

[crazymama]

Good morning Crazy Mama,

It's possible Murray could say that.

However, according to at least one source, Diprivan might not be the best choice for detoxing:

"How to understand the Dangers of Diprovan abuse"

http://www.howcast.com/guides/3613-How-To-Understand-the-Dangers-Of-Diprivan-Propofol-Abuse

//snip//
Recovering drug addicts are cautioned against receiving Diprivan because it can trigger a relapse.
//snip//
----------
Morining,
Yes, I was reading to that there is alot of problems with rapid detox and has been deaths. And also that it doesn't address the persons real needs to take drugs, so people do relapse.

[Zenyatta]

-----------------
Hmm, got rid of his files before MJ passed?
What I was thinking was he was detoxing him and using
the vitamins ladys cocktail to flush his system. And that
when he said he never gave MJ narcotics, that was what he was
trying to flush from his system.
Another thing would you let someone give this to you alone if
you were MJ. He barely knew this dr. How would he trust him
not to take nudie pics of him or something when he was out. There had to be someone else present.

The link you posted previously says that detox is uncomfortable and takes days to weeks for recuperation. So, if Murray attempts to claim he was trying to help Jackson by putting him through detox, how does he explain the grueling rehearsal schedule and the fact that the tour was starting in what, a couple weeks? Were there plans to postpone all of these activities while Michael recuperated from detox? Or maybe it doesn't work that way, don't know, just thinking out loud.

I think Dr. Murray has painted himself into a corner.

[Zenyatta]

----------
Morining,
Yes, I was reading to that there is alot of problems with rapid detox and has been deaths. And also that it doesn't address the persons real needs to take drugs, so people do relapse.


That's my understanding too, mama. I'm thinking Dr. Murray might want to skip that defense. I'm thinking he might want to take any plea deal offered, at this point (IF it's verified that Diprivan killed MJ, and Murray administered it).

IMO

[who_is_it]

The link you posted previously says that detox is uncomfortable and takes days to weeks for recuperation. So, if Murray attempts to claim he was trying to help Jackson by putting him through detox, how does he explain the grueling rehearsal schedule and the fact that the tour was starting in what, a couple weeks? Were there plans to postpone all of these activities while Michael recuperated from detox? Or maybe it doesn't work that way, don't know, just thinking out loud.

I think Dr. Murray has painted himself into a corner.

Thanks for your links about anesthesia drug abuse yesterday. I've read the articles.

I have no time to join the discussion now. CU some other time!

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out. I have been reading there
have been deaths with this method from well, sloppy doctoring.
MJ apparently had another insurance medical exam to pass
before the concert.
.novusdetox.com/faq.php
While Rapid Detox promises that it will be a rapid process, the time for the detoxification program that they are describing is the actual time when the patient is under general anesthesia. Because of the strong drugs used and the shock this detoxification gives your body, most people require upwards of three to six days just to recover from being under this long. They also often have severe side effects. Rapid Detox claims that you can detox from a drug while under anesthesia for six to eight hours. However, Rapid Detox centers do not tell you that, like any time that you are under anesthesia for this long and because of the strong drug used for detoxification that is injected in your body, recuperation often takes from a few uncomfortable days to several weeks.

All I can say about this is "talk About Off Label" use of this drug, something which is inherently dangerous...especialll if used by unqualified, untrained person, who doesnt follow the dosing guidelines and procedures clearly outlined in its Monograph....Primarily Rescue equipment, and monitoring of the patient constantly! Dr. Murray is in one big trouble..and I am sure he is not the only one in that web of malpractice....Just who gets caught..we will soon see..

LMS

[Zenyatta]

Thanks for your links about anesthesia drug abuse yesterday. I've read the articles.

I have no time to join the discussion now. CU some other time!

You're welcome. Please come back soon!

[VC2]

IMO not so sure that Tohme just turned this money over. Don't forget that MJ had a meeting with Branca about 3 weeks before his death. He would have probably told Branca about this "stash". Kind of weird IMO just to have $5.5M just lying around too!

This is just my speculation -- but I believe Branca was called back in to possibly try to alter the contract for the 50 concerts. I honestly do not believe MJ agreed to those and by all accounts he was infuriated. If you look at his press announcement -- he specifically says he agreed to 10 concerts and that's on tape. I sure would like to know if MJ signed that contract or did his business manager sign that contract? I've also never heard of an entertainer performing so many concerts in one location. Usually they are spread out amongst locations. JMO

regarding the 50 vs 10. It was someone else who kept on about the 10 and imo it became internet fact.

Well according to rolling stone who checked with a number of people it was as AEG said always 31 concerts. In fact the reason MJ chose the number 31 was it was one more than Prince whom he had a rivalry with in some ways. He wanted to go one better.

When it sold out in hours, Phillips called to see if MJ would agree to an extended tour with 20 more dates. He agreed on two conditions. One was a manor house for he and his children to stay in while in the UK including a place with animals, and two was that at the end of the tour the Guinness book of world records would present him with an award...apparently MJ was not certain of what award he wanted but that there was a best of type.

I found that far more believalbe than thinking he ever planned to do just 10.

IMO

[crazymama]

The link you posted previously says that detox is uncomfortable and takes days to weeks for recuperation. So, if Murray attempts to claim he was trying to help Jackson by putting him through detox, how does he explain the grueling rehearsal schedule and the fact that the tour was starting in what, a couple weeks? Were there plans to postpone all of these activities while Michael recuperated from detox? Or maybe it doesn't work that way, don't know, just thinking out loud.

I think Dr. Murray has painted himself into a corner.
-------------
He might have used this detox method before with good results. Some people can go through treatments easily than others. I just think about that next medical exam coming up for him. I think he was pushed into more concerts than he wanted and by heck the people around him were going to get it. Then again he could have been using it for sleep, who knows.

ibogaine-therapy.net/indexa74e.html?PAGE=58
Furthermore, the NIDA report says patients may be at risk of choking or cardiac complications when given large quantities of detox drugs in combination with anesthesia....

Detoxing under a general anesthetic is a major medical procedure. The body undergoes extreme trauma during the detox, and general anesthetics (especially of such long duration) are inherently risky procedures. Fatalities while under anesthetic have been reported. In New Jersey alone there have been 7 reported deaths. The total number nationwide is not available....
There are a handful of clinics that advertise on the Internet, and an unknown number of doctors nationwide perform the procedure secretly.

[Zenyatta]

All I can say about this is "talk About Off Label" use of this drug, something which is inherently dangerous...especialll if used by unqualified, untrained person, who doesnt follow the dosing guidelines and procedures clearly outlined in its Monograph....Primarily Rescue equipment, and monitoring of the patient constantly! Dr. Murray is in one big trouble..and I am sure he is not the only one in that web of malpractice....Just who gets caught..we will soon see..

LMS

Good morning, Lynda,

Question for you.

Could someone going through detox perform as Michael demonstrated in the rehearsal clip?

Thanks.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Exactly. I don't know how Dr. Murray can around this IMO.

"The propofol found in Jackson's home raises big questions.

"I can't think of a situation where it would be appropriate in the home setting," said Dr. David Zvara, anesthesia chairman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

The American Society of Anesthesiologists issued guidance on the drug in 2004. Any doctor using propofol should have the education and training to manage anesthesia complications and "be physically present throughout the sedation," it says. Patients "should be monitored without interruption" for signs of trouble, and rescue equipment "must be immediately available."

An ordinary doctor without special training is "absolutely not" qualified to do give the drug, Zvara said.

http://www.kpic.com/news/entertainment/51032457.html

LOl Athena..we are like a tag team...I make a point..and you rush in to back it up for me...Too Cute..and I appreciate it!! There are those that just dont believe either what i say..or why I say it....

LMS :-)

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Good morning, Lynda,

Question for you.

Could someone going through detox perform as Michael demonstrated in the rehearsal clip?

Thanks.

likelly not..at least not without some sort of hummmchemical support..Trying to be delicate here....It seems the detoxing is meant to drain someone of toxic substances, but just the process takes so much other things out of you..and must add..supplemental electrolytes, and vitamins and minerals to replace what is lost in this process is mandetory...Any inbalance of these things create cadiac (electrical) problems..leading to dysrhymias...In fact..MJ could very well have collapsed on that stage from a catastrophic Cardiac event ..

I think the link Athena posted sort of outlines the high risk of this treatment (detox by Aneasthesia), and the patient in no way is physically prepared for such activities..

just a thought here..maybe that is why there was a person assigned to MJ to make sure he ate, and drank fluids???hummming

LMS

[Zenyatta]

I'm certainly glad it has finally been shown in posts Diprivan is highly addictive. I have thought that from the beginning. It is such a shame MJ had the money to fuel the addictions. Of course if MJ didn't have the money he wouldn't have been MJ. Such a sad circle of circumstance. jmo

MJ had the means to find the worst Doctors money could buy.

IMO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't think it has ever been proven he is in hiding. It has been said he has security 24/7 and can't go anywhere because of threats. I can't blame him for that since MJ fans have been known to be crazy. I'd like to see a link he is in "hiding" too. jmo

I dont believe making a statement like hiding is so of the wall...I guess it comes down to what is the definition of "In Hiding"...As for Dr. Murray, no one has seen or heard anything from his lips since he spoke to LE..only his lawyer has made statements, then there is the fact the tabloids described, he was living in a "Gated community"..staying away from media types, then there's his leaving California to go home to Texas,http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/17/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol/
]Dr. Conrad Murray has made himself scarce since speaking with the LAPD two days after Michael Jackson's death. [/U]We've learned the doctor has high-tailed it out of California, at least for now

and once again..Dr. M. is nowhere to be seen or found by outsiders..I could go on..But it does seem Dr. Murray is in an "Avoidance" state...and I dont blame him...he is deep do do..

LMS:laugh:

[ellegna]

MJ had the means to find the worst Doctors money could buy.

IMO

Bingo! You nailed that one.
IMO....Any self respecting, diligent, credible doctor, as tempting as $$$$ would be, would have refused to supply MJ's drug habit.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

-------------

U know...............i dont understand how anyone can say that none of this is MJ's fault. To me, thats just making excuses for him. jmo

You know what Buzzzzzz (hope I used enough z's).?.I have only read a few even intimating MJ had no blame in this...In all honesty, of course he is to blame for ignoring all the warnings, and continued to seek a "Quick Fix" for his perceived problems...but like but like most crimes, there are usually many more involved...The Dr.'s do have a higher standard..not to mention the issues of "Medical Ethical" issues...Unfortunately, MJ had to die to expose them and flush them out!

I have even heard some balme LE for not persueing the drug issues back in Neverland Dayz..but you have to know..even if they pursued it..MJ likely would have found other "Unethicals" to take their places. MJ was in deed a Trainwreck heading for a disaster..and not sure anyone could have stopped it. Now, having said all that, I also believe these "charlatans" who claim to be Physicians, who are suppose to first do no harm...not only need to answer for their actions and deeds, but they have to face the music..incarcerations..yep..

If these Dr.'s did this for MJ, I have to wonder just who else they are doing such things for??

LMS:mad:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

------------------

If MJ would have went to jail for drugs, maybe he would have learned a lesson and possibly still be alive today. jmo

You maybe right, but there is a very high level of proof needed to put anyone in jail for abuse of perscriptions...MJ has always used the excuse his "Addictons" were from "Perscriptions" which right there places the blame on the "Perscribers"...MJ was very good at the excuse game, and I am sure he tricked his brain into believing those excuses..

If you want to take just one example..try and go back and follow Robert Downey Jr.'s case..from his first brush with the law thru to his final turnaround..It took years and years before he finally Got it..and I am sure he still has to fight his "emotional need" everyday..

As for MJ, there were many around him over the years who knew about his dependencies, but could nothing....and if they reported it to the authorities..it is a very slippery slope..media attentions, legal costs, and
a fan base that would crucify you for "wanting your 15 minutes of fame" or even worse..just wantingmoney out of MJ..blackmailing etc...
Even some of the family members denied their interventions after his death..why?..Cause it didnt look good..plain and simple..Some are even now believing his family didnt care about him (MJ) but only his money..
Sometimes yiu just can win for losing...

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I, for one, am not giving the doctors a free pass here. If there is anything they did wrong, they should pay.

Likewise, I won't give MJ a free pass here either. Like I said in a previous post, he had the money to fuel his addictions and that is exactly what he did including Diprivan. The money bought him the doctors and he did doctor shop. How are you so sure one doctor knew about the other. I think some didn't, but that's just me.

It's like what came first, the chicken or the egg. jmo

I have a feeling that the Investigators are trying to find any links between these Doctors..as you say, they can always claim ignorance in not being told certain medical history items.also that is why getting all the medial records too..I think they believe Dr. Murray is at fault for his treatments at that residence, but I also think they are trying to find links to other physicians involved in this whole mess!

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I think it is totally wrong to throw people in jail because they are ill. MJ was not treated right. There are always different methods to deal with any problem, good and bad ones. He needed help to solve the problems he had, anyone would in his place. His pain and other problems could have been treated without drugs.

I do think that the courts are loath to throw addicts into jail..unless of course they kill or murder someone, but tend to force rehab and other things forcing them to help themselves...It doesnt always work..but it seems to be what they (courts) are striving for...

Facilitators and that could be anyone from the street pusher, dealers right on up to the medical professionals, all have a role..however, not always held accountable either....I recall when Carroll O'Conner went after the drug pusher who facilitated in his son's drug addiction..and he died..is just one example where the Drug Supplier was gone after...let me see if I can find that..
Here it is~~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_O'Connor


[edit] Personal life
O'Connor married his wife Nancy in Dublin, Ireland (and she later converted to Roman Catholicism for him) in 1951. In 1995 their only child, adopted son Hugh O'Connor, committed suicide after a long battle with drug addiction. Hugh left a widow and small child behind. O'Connor appeared in public service announcements for Partnership for a Drug Free America and spent the rest of his life working to raise awareness about drug addiction. After Hugh's death, O'Connor successfully lobbied to get the State of California to pass legislation that allows family members of an addicted person or anyone injured by a drug dealer's actions, including employers, to sue for reimbursement for medical treatment and rehabilitation costs. The law, known as the Drug Dealer Civil Liability Act in California, went into effect in 1997.

Eleven other states followed with similar legislation, which has been referred to as The Hugh O'Connor Memorial Law.

LMS

[daniel green]

snipped

just boggles me, 5 million dollars cash "recovered" from a financial advisor.

5 million in cash, anywhere is preposterous and shocking.

And can't be for any good purpose.

[daniel green]

Personally I believe MJ was long dead before that 911 call was made. The time in between was attempting to cover his tracks. JMO

To the letter, consciousness of guilt.

[daniel green]

----------
Morining,
Yes, I was reading to that there is alot of problems with rapid detox and has been deaths. And also that it doesn't address the persons real needs to take drugs, so people do relapse.

I am 100% convinced that rapid detox has nothing to do with it.

With rapid detox, which is very controversial, there is not only anesthesia given but large doses of other drugs infused:

Patients, all heroin addicts, were divided into three treatment groups. Those receiving ultra rapid detox were anesthetized for about four hours while they got a large dose of a drug that blocks the brain's opioid receptors.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-08-23-detox_x.htm

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Very cool in concept..but not practical IMO There is almost a zero chance of recovery. Can't attach a drug dealer's paycheck, they often end up dead or incarcerated....what lawyer is gonna do this on a contingency basis?

LOL..you maybe right there too..however when those pill pushing perscription writers get exposed...look out..Big Bucks...

Maybe this law could be expanded to find culpibility in causing death to the addict too.....
Wonder what other laws are going to be clarified or expanded after the ANS "enablers" go to court..??

LMS:w00t:

[daniel green]

"Rapid detox" using general anesthesia and high-dose naltrexone to treat individuals addicted to heroin is not more effective, and may be more dangerous, than alternative withdrawal strategies using buprenorphine or clonidine with naltrexone.

And the nurse and others have claimed MJ begged them for the diprivan to sleep.

Not sure where this rapid detox theories are coming from, but they don't seem to be based on any facts.

Also, rapid detox was used while the patient was under general anesthesia and intubated, and I cannot find a thing about dirprivan being used as part of the anesthesia.

[flipflop]

------------------

MJ didnt want help............plain and simple. If he wanted help he would have got it, just like he got everything else he wanted. jmo


I think he probably thought like most addicts think. Why get help for something that is no big deal, which is what most addicts think when someone tries to tell them the harm they are doing to their bodies.

I am one of those. I smoke. Not a day goes by that someone doesn't tell me I am killing myself, playing with fire, you are going to get lung cancer....and on and on. They are right. But I try to rationalize it to myself. Doesn't mean that I don't want to quit.

[daniel green]

Dr. Murray might be saying he was detoxing MJ. It's called
rapid detox with anesthesia and they also inject with a
cocktail to flush your system out.snipped.

It's not as simple as that. Opiod antigens are injected IV while the patient is under anesthesia and lasts for a few days. It's not a cocktail of any sort.

General anesthesia while the antigen is given.

Antigen binds with the opiates, getting rid of the high (patients given narcan in ER's typically complain loudly to the docs about their buzz being gone) and the proponents of rapid detox (which was never past the experimental stage) claimed it would get rid of the cravings.

Anyone detoxes any drugs within 24-72 hrs anyway, without any need to be put on anesthesia.

Detox centers aid the patients by making them more comfortable during the detox stage giving them small doses of tranquilizers (such as librium) and restoryl for sleep and phenregran for nausea.

The rapid detox proposed to get you over those 24-72 hrs asleep so you wouldn't go through the misery of detoxing. But no legitimate detox center performed it, as keeping a patient under anesthesia for so long is very dangerous.

Also, if MJ was addicted to other things besides opiates (ie, xanax, klonopin, valium, etc) it would not work.

[daniel green]

Good morning, Lynda,

Question for you.

Could someone going through detox perform as Michael demonstrated in the rehearsal clip?

Thanks.

Not Lynda--but the answer is no.

I have, unfortunately, seen many ppl detoxing during my 20 yrs of work and during the 24-72 hrs it takes to detox ppl are miserable. Nausea, vomiting, chills, pain, profuse sweating, confusion, tremors, etc.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

------------

i agree. Its called being "spoiled rotten". jmo

LOL..I find that termed spoiled..in my mind anyway.refers to children..I like to use the term "Endulged" for adults...and when someone who is rich, famous, and in need...There are always some supplier for that need out there...Sad but true..MJ paid for his demands..the ultimate price..now it is time for the suppliers to pay their pound of flesh too!
LMS

[daniel green]

snipped

An ordinary doctor without special training is "absolutely not" qualified to do give the drug, Zvara said.

http://www.kpic.com/news/entertainment/51032457.html

And as this guy was not an anesthesiologist, he surely was not qualified.

And he had his staff clean out the storage unit right after?

How this won't be 2nd degree murder is beyond me.

[daniel green]

------------------

If MJ would have went to jail for drugs, maybe he would have learned a lesson and possibly still be alive today. jmo

MJ would not have gone to either jail or prison for using drugs.

Not reasonable given that it would have been a first time offense and he had no priors or any kind.

He would have received probation, at most, with drug treatment of his choice and mandatory (or not) drug testing for a period of time.

I do think it is sad that did not happen, as it would have been a chance to save his life and have him be able to be here for his children.

[Zenyatta]

Here's a link to the CBS News story I summarized last night:

"Abuse of Diprivan A Growing Problem"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/eveningnews/main5186904.shtm

//snip//
The singer's former nurse says he asked for the drug to battle his insomnia.

"I understand it," said Thane Flora, who abused Diprivan. "I understand that desperation."

Flora is now in recovery. But she abused Diprivan in the 1990s while working as a nurse anesthetist. She used it to fight insomnia brought on by an addiction to painkillers.

"It's real simple," Flora said. "You use it to go to sleep. Wake up a few minutes later and use it again."

That's because the drug wears off in about five minutes, leading addicts to constantly inject themselves.

"The patients we've seen who used Diprivan will often self inject 50, 70 times per day," Manejwala said.

And despite the short-term effect, most addicts report experiencing a sense of euphoria when they wake up.

"What makes sense to an active addict makes no sense to someone that's not an active addict," Flora said.
//snip//

I forgot to include in my summary that Thane Flora was also a former nurse for MJ. (So we have at least 2 people once in Jackson's employ -- Ms. Flora and Dr. Ratner -- who admit to abusing drugs themselves).

I thought her last statement (bolded) explains a lot.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

------------

involuntary manslaughter......watch and see. jmo

It is my recollection that DA's usually charge the highest level..if for nothing else that to get some plea bargain.. So I guess we will have to wait and see what the initial charging will be....Am I mistaken or did I hear this whole thing will be going to a Grand Jury?..I read that somewhere..if true, I think it will be that group who decide on the charges.

I just recall which link I read that on..so just take it as rumor for now...or if someone can correct my recollections..TYIA

LMS

[daniel green]

I do think that the courts are loath to throw addicts into jail..unless of course they kill or murder someone, but tend to force rehab and other things forcing them to help themselves...It doesnt always work..but it seems to be what they (courts) are striving for...

snipped

You are right.

There is enough jail/prison space as it is, and someone thinks that courts will put drug USERS in prison? No way. Not unless they comit another crime or break probation of some sort (which is what happened to Rbt Downey Jr, he kept breaking his parole/probation by using drugs and/or failing drug tests).

[Zenyatta]

Daniel Green:

Speaking for myself, I never meant to imply that MJ used Diprivan for detox. Simply that if Dr. Murray tried to used that excuse to justify its use, it probably wouldn't fly.

IMO

[daniel green]

----------------
r u a doctor or r u reading that on the internet? curious

HUH? :confused:

I know that from 20 yrs of working with children who are either addicts themselves or live with addicts. I take kids to detox at least twice a week, still, and I am only working 1/4-time.

But it is against TOS to ask those kind of personal questions.

[daniel green]

Daniel Green:

Speaking for myself, I never meant to imply that MJ used Diprivan for detox. Simply that if Dr. Murray tried to used that excuse to justify its use, it probably wouldn't fly.

IMO

He'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

Preposterous on its face.

Thx for clarifying it.

[daniel green]

Am I mistaken or did I hear this whole thing will be going to a Grand Jury?..I read that somewhere..if true, I think it will be that group who decide on the charges.

snipped
LMS

I would think so.

[Zenyatta]

He'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

Preposterous on its face.

Thx for clarifying it.

You're welcome. :smile:

Preposterosity hasn't stopped certain celebrity defense attorneys before. Guess we'll see, if this goes to trial.

IMO

[daniel green]

I personally think the best place to throw an addict for any crime committed is jail. Cold turkey and their off drugs. Many addicts are cured that way. They come out of jail clean. jmo

Really, huh?

I have never seen an addict come out of jail clean in 20 yrs.

"Cold turkey," as you call it, can kill.

It's not only inhumane to have anyone detox that way, but medically unsound.

Two wks ago I was in the waiting room with a juvenile at the county detox unit and a student from Duke Univ was there waiting for his meds (librium, phrenegran and vitamin B's injections) before being given a room. He had been brought in because he rolled his car 4 times the day before, drunk. He was shaking and teeth chattering so badly while he told me he had been taking 20 xanax/day, on top of drinking. I called out to the techs, because he looked in really bad shape, and he went into convulsions, right there in admit.

Dry detoxing is a very dangerous thing.

[daniel green]

You forgot to link the author. :laugh:

imo

HUH? You want a link to my thoughts?

[daniel green]

snipped
If these Dr.'s did this for MJ, I have to wonder just who else they are doing such things for??

LMS:mad:

You know it's far and wide.

What I truly hope happens is that they blow the lid off these practices and put these docs in prison. That should put a stop to it.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I WILL FOLLOW that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel;


http://nktiuro.tripod.com/hippocra.htm

"Do no harm"

Yepper..thus my outrage since I heard the term Diprivan...absolutely no excuse will negate Dr. Muray's culpibility in this..The patient paid already for his part in this...so lets go after the rest of them "Unethical" ones!!

LMS:mad:

[daniel green]

Actually, it depends what drug they're detoxing from.

imo

Actually, no.

Detoxing from opiates, alcohol, trancs, meth, whatever, is pretty much the same. Nausea, vomiting, chills, tremors, pain, patient can have seizures, can have hallucinations, etc.

But this is getting far off topic now, as detox is not the topic.

[daniel green]

snipped

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ut/press/releases/Stack%20indictment.pdf

Thx, Athena! Off to a mani-pedi afternoon with my girls, so will read when I get back.

Just from memory, the doc that Rxd the wrestler who killed his wife, child and himself went to prison, right?

Looking forward to reading this when I get back.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't agree, but you do have a right to your opinions. imo

I really hate to jump in here..but would like to maybe inform some about the dangers of Detox and the repercussion of it..It does depend on just what you are trying to detox from..as the effects of whatever you are abusing can and does directly effects different systems..here is the most simple description I found regarding just detoxing from alcohol

[edit] Alcohol detoxification
Main article: Alcohol detoxification
Alcohol detoxification is a process by which a heavy drinker's system is brought back to normal after being used to having alcohol in the body on a continual basis. Serious alcohol addiction results in a decrease in production of GABA neuro-inhibitor because alcohol acts to replace it. Precipitous withdrawal from long-term alcohol addiction without medical management can cause severe health problems and can be fatal. Alcohol detox is not a treatment for alcoholism. After detoxification, other treatments must be undergone to deal with the underlying addiction that caused the alcohol use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification

Withdrawl from anything could very well cause catastrophic
physiological reactions..seizures are only one of them..electrical malfuntions causing cardiac dysrhythmia's ( life threatening if not corrected) to plain old dehydration due to constant vomiting, diarrhea and sweating out fluids!..

As for MJ...who know what he was trying to do with this "Sleep Therapy" ala Diprivan..but suffice to say, the treater is in huge trouble!!

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Medical Detoxification
As you may know, it is dangerous to quit drugs cold turkey. Many individuals require medical detoxification before they can begin a program of treatment or rehabilitation. The purpose of detoxification, or “detox,” as it is commonly called, is to help individuals to withdraw from an addictive substance.

Detox is conducted under close medical supervision during the withdrawal phase. Withdrawal symptoms may range from mild irritability to seizures and even death. Other common withdrawal symptoms include anxiety, panic, depression, incoherent thoughts, muscle cramps, vomiting, or nausea.

When patients first enter a detox unit, they are given medications to ease the symptoms of withdrawal. They may be given tranquilizers, anti-hypertensive drugs, or other medications. Some patients may be given small doses of their drug to which they’re addicted with the intent of gradually tapering the doses. This detox process usually takes several days, perhaps longer, depending on the type of drug to which one is addicted.

http://www.prescriptiondrugaddiction.com/treatment.asp

Once again Athena..The calvary to the rescue..LOL

It has crossed my mind that just maybe MJ had tried to get off his drug ( persription) use..by replacing it with another..and put his life into the hands of an incompetent for getting this drug administered..It seems Mj deluded himself to think just any Dr. would do this..after all..to him it is just going into a coma-sleep-state..had denied allthe warnings he got..

LMS:ohmy:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

He may have been just trying to cut down as well. Perhaps that is what explains his "racing thoughts" and insomnia and why the people who have been around him recently did not think he was abusing drugs. You have to also keep in mind much of what we've heard is his drug abuse going back to the days of the trial. We don't know what his drug use was in the past few months. Just a thought..... However, he still would have needed a qualified physician. JMHO

Of course..that goes without saying..but from Cherilyn's comment on MJ's response to her when she told him how dangerous Diprivan was..He said ..something along the line of Nooooo, not if I am being monitored....No wonder Nurse Cherilyn felt concern..I think she knew full well, this drug required a very specialized person to administer...

Dr. M. was not qualified..dont give a hoot if he had MD beside his name!

LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

IMO MJ's first drug of choice..to get "high"...was Demerol.

I think he suffered from insomnia because of all his other drug usage. imo

Ya know..we can go around speculating all we want as to what MJ thought..and what he did, and why he did it..It is however something that He took to his grave with him..and the issue on the table right now for me anyway, is to maybe find out who facilitated his dependency...and try to put either a stop or deterent in place..

In all cases..Addicts need to be protected from themselves..if for no other reason than to protect those around them...The kids, family or anyone else who cares...

It is unfair really to just the vilify drug addict..as with that dependency comes all sorts of other players..like it or not..In MJ;s case.."Others" may have to answer for their role in all this..and its about time really..

LMS

[sunstar]

You know it's far and wide.

What I truly hope happens is that they blow the lid off these practices and put these docs in prison. That should put a stop to it.

Hi! I think there's a very good chance this doctor could be convicted of involuntary manslaughter and I'd think along with that he'd lose his medical license. I'm also waiting to hear more about what was being removed from his storage facility the morning MJ died, and if the doctor could've ordered the clean up after finding MJ unresponsive. MOO

[Eagleeye]

-------------

link please

Why would you ask for a link from someone who has personal experience with this process? When it comes from study and daily pracitce one can state their opinion. It is your choice to accept it or not. Now do you need a link to my opinion?

Link: Eagleeye's opinion.

[achristie]

Really, huh?

I have never seen an addict come out of jail clean in 20 yrs.

"Cold turkey," as you call it, can kill.

It's not only inhumane to have anyone detox that way, but medically unsound.

Two wks ago I was in the waiting room with a juvenile at the county detox unit and a student from Duke Univ was there waiting for his meds (librium, phrenegran and vitamin B's injections) before being given a room. He had been brought in because he rolled his car 4 times the day before, drunk. He was shaking and teeth chattering so badly while he told me he had been taking 20 xanax/day, on top of drinking. I called out to the techs, because he looked in really bad shape, and he went into convulsions, right there in admit.

Dry detoxing is a very dangerous thing.

What a sad story. Didn't one of MJ's insiders say he was taking up to 40 xanax a day? I thought that would be impossible. Now, you say this college kid was taking 20 a day and drinking, too. This just blows me away. I would think they'd go into respiratory arrest. I read somewhere that wine and xanax could be a deadly combination ( no link), that it could be a problem with middle school kids who sneak the drug out of the parent's medicine cabinet.

And ITA with your comment that these docs should go to jail.

MOO Aggie

[sunstar]

He may have been just trying to cut down as well. Perhaps that is what explains his "racing thoughts" and insomnia and why the people who have been around him recently did not think he was abusing drugs. You have to also keep in mind much of what we've heard is his drug abuse going back to the days of the trial. We don't know what his drug use was in the past few months. Just a thought..... However, he still would have needed a qualified physician. JMHO

I agree that he may have cut back a lot on the prescription drugs and that caused the insomnia, which he may have thought the diprivan would take care of. The doctor should have said "no" like CL did when he asked her for it. But sadly it looks like Dr. M wanted and needed the money more. MOO

[disneyfreak]

I found this under the prescribing info for US doctors. Highlighted a couple words. The DA has a decent chance at manslaughter IMO by proving the doctor didn't have the necessary equipment. Unlike the other recommendations, that is listed as a MUST.
http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/diprivan.pdf?redirected=yes

WARNINGS
For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained
in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Patients should be continuously
monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately
available.
For sedation of intubated, mechanically ventilated adult patients in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU), DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered
only by persons skilled in the management of critically ill patients and trained in cardiovascular resuscitation and airway management.
In the elderly, debilitated, or ASA III/IV patients, rapid (single or repeated) bolus administration should not be used during general anesthesia or MAC sedation
in order to minimize undesirable cardiorespiratory depression including hypotension, apnea, airway obstruction, and/or oxygen desaturation.
MAC sedation patients should be continuously monitored by persons not involved in the conduct of the surgical or diagnostic procedure; oxygen supplementation
should be immediately available and provided where clinically indicated; and oxygen saturation should be monitored in all patients. Patients should
be continuously monitored for early signs of hypotension, apnea, airway obstruction, and/or oxygen desaturation. These cardiorespiratory effects are more
likely to occur following rapid initiation (loading) boluses or during supplemental maintenance boluses, especially in the elderly, debilitated, or ASA III/IV
patients.

[Eagleeye]

Link doesn't work...:(


It wasn't meant to, I was being facetious. :wink:

[sunstar]

Guess it does not matter that the propofol was not found in Dr. Murray's offices:


Hidden Drug Stash Found in Jackson's House
Posted Jul 25th 2009 8:30AM by TMZ Staff

Sources say when the LAPD first searched Jackson's home the night he died, they did not turn up Propofol or many of the other drugs that were in Jackson's house.

Dr. Murray talked to the LAPD the following Saturday and the information he supplied triggered another, broader search warrant. Cops returned to the house the following Monday and discovered "various drugs" secretly stashed in a closet of the guest room where Dr. Murray was staying.

One law enforcement source says: "The drugs were concealed...they weren't obvious." Among the stash -- Propofol, the drug authorities believe killed Michael Jackson.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/25/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-drug-stash-lapd-propofol/
And secretly stashed in the room where the doctor was staying. I don't know what defense he could come up with for this ~ he certainly won't be able to say somebody else snuck in there and took it and gave it to MJ. MOO

[Unperson1984]

------------

involuntary manslaughter......watch and see. jmo

I believe you are correct.

[Zenyatta]

IMO It wouldn't matter if they brought the charges or not...no way would MJ have been convicted...of anything.

TDT, I agree with you. IMO had Sneddon tried to prosecute MJ for possession after the molestation trial, MJ's handlers would claim the prosecution was just sour grapes on Sneddon's part and ridicule Sneddon for continuing his vendetta against MJ.

[Imperfect4]

And secretly stashed in the room where the doctor was staying. I don't know what defense he could come up with for this ~ he certainly won't be able to say somebody else snuck in there and took it and gave it to MJ. MOO

This is entirely hypothetical, but suppose we were to learn Dr. Murray is also a drug user?

Just wondering how much rope many here would give him, if he too had a problem.

I just find it interesting so many are willing to forgive MJ his weaknesses, but no one else in this saga. Maybe the doc was also "addicted" -- if not to drugs, then perhaps to being financially solvent.

What then? Does the compassion shown for MJ then extend to Dr. Murray and his weaknesses, whatever those may be?

If not, why not? Shall we hold Dr. Murray to a higher standard than the King of Pop, icon, idol and father of three innocent children?

Not trying to be argumentative. Just curious.

[Imperfect4]

A doctor is always held to a higher standard of care. Especially one who charges $150,000.00 per month for his services.

imo...of course.

MJ charged much more than that for his performances, but I fail to see the relevance of what the expensive doctor charged the supremely wealthy superstar.

Your comment "a doctor is always held to a higher standard of care" is a copout, with all due respect. What if a doctor is also an addict? How is a singer/dancer more worthy of treatment or compassion? And why would you expect more from an addicted doctor than an addicted pop icon? If MJ couldn't be expected to help himself, how can the doctor? Where is the fairness to the doctor? (Again, this is hypothetical.)

[Unperson1984]

I found this under the prescribing info for US doctors. Highlighted a couple words. The DA has a decent chance at manslaughter IMO by proving the doctor didn't have the necessary equipment. Unlike the other recommendations, that is listed as a MUST.
http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/diprivan.pdf?redirected=yes

Excellent link. It shows the basic problem with charging Murray with
2nd degree.

Once a person is a licensed MD, they can perform any and all medical procedures. Murray calls himself a cardiologist in spite of the fact he isn't Board Certified, and that is perfectly legal. Drugs include advisories that say “should” not shall or must, and that gives the doctors wide latitude in what procedures and drugs they choose to use.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Excellent link. It shows the basic problem with charging Murray with
2nd degree.

Once a person is a licensed MD, they can perform any and all medical procedures. Murray calls himself a cardiologist in spite of the fact he isn't Board Certified, and that is perfectly legal. Drugs include advisories that say “should” not shall or must, and that gives the doctors wide latitude in what procedures and drugs they choose to use.

I would hope that Dr. Murray had an "Informed Conscent" for his treatment..and witnessed accordingly..as that would at one level prove he had used due diligence to inform HIS patient of all the dangers of whatever procedure he was doing...Whenever a medical facility performs a medical procedure..conscents must be signed..which prove the patient had been informed!!

LMS:laugh:

[Zenyatta]

This is entirely hypothetical, but suppose we were to learn Dr. Murray is also a drug user?

Just wondering how much rope many here would give him, if he too had a problem.

I just find it interesting so many are willing to forgive MJ his weaknesses, but no one else in this saga. Maybe the doc was also "addicted" -- if not to drugs, then perhaps to being financially solvent.

What then? Does the compassion shown for MJ then extend to Dr. Murray and his weaknesses, whatever those may be?

If not, why not? Shall we hold Dr. Murray to a higher standard than the King of Pop, icon, idol and father of three innocent children?

Not trying to be argumentative. Just curious.

Excellent post.

I haven't forgiven MJ his weaknesses. Especially since he was responsible for 3 children.

It's just that he's dead, and my main focus is on how he died, and, who and what circumstances over the years contributed to that death.

Murray's attorney has contended that Dr. Murray was simply "the last man standing" who happened to be there when Michael died. While that doesn't absolve Murray, I understand what Chernoff's saying. Especially after reading about Dr. Ratner's history and seeing Dr. Klein on LKL. Michael Jackson was playing Russian Roulette. All IMO.

[Unperson1984]

There you are. When you went to sleep last night, I had responded that there was no therapeutic use of deprivan in a home setting, and I sure don't see a difference between Spector's use of a gun, and the Doctor's use of a drug that wasn't intended for the purpose in which it was used.

There is no law against using deprivan in a home, it is left to the doctor to decide where to administer treatment.

If true that MJ died from deprivan use, Murray used poor judgement and engaged in an unusual course of treatment, but he didn't break the law. Poor medical judgement does not rise to the legal level of 2nd degree murder.

[Imperfect4]

--------------------
good question about fairness to the doctor. So many people already have him convicted. the question i have is this.........if the doc was covering up, why would he tell LE where the drugs were stashed in MJ's house? i think its gonna take a lot to convict this doc. jmo

I think the doctor probably screwed up big time. I think his cooperation with LE will be helpful to him as all this moves forward toward a conclusion.

I think Murray should be held responsible for his role in MJ's death. But I think no matter how many doctors and pharmacies and other peripheral characters are held responsible, the ultimate responsibility lay with Michael.

Imo, if we don't as a society reacquaint ourselves -- quickly -- with the concept of Personal Responsibility, we're doomed.

[Zenyatta]

I would hope that Dr. Murray had an "Informed Conscent" for his treatment..and witnessed accordingly..as that would at one level prove he had used due diligence to inform HIS patient of all the dangers of whatever procedure he was doing...Whenever a medical facility performs a medical procedure..conscents must be signed..which prove the patient had been informed!!

LMS:laugh:

How does informed consent work with a procedure that is not FDA approved?

[Imperfect4]

Excellent post.

I haven't forgiven MJ his weaknesses. Especially since he was responsible for 3 children.

It's just that he's dead, and my main focus is on how he died, and, who and what circumstances over the years contributed to that death.

Murray's attorney has contended that Dr. Murray was simply "the last man standing" who happened to be there when Michael died. While that doesn't absolve Murray, I understand what Chernoff's saying. Especially after reading about Dr. Ratner's history and seeing Dr. Klein on LKL. Michael Jackson was playing Russian Roulette. All IMO.

Thank you for the compliment. I'm really enjoying reading your posts as well.

The situation with MJ was a snowball rolling downhill for years, imo. Eventually it was going to hit bottom, and most likely, people would be lying beneath it when it came to rest.

[Zenyatta]

There is no law against using deprivan in a home, it is left to the doctor to decide where to administer treatment.

If true that MJ died from deprivan use, Murray used poor judgement and engaged in an unusual course of treatment, but he didn't break the law. Poor medical judgement does not rise to the legal level of 2nd degree murder.

What type of laws or statutes govern usage of drugs for off label uses? (Honest question -- I don't know).

I agree with you on the 2nd degree murder. Regardless of California's definition, I think a good Defense attorney would pound away at the lack of intent on Murray's part.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

How does informed consent work with a procedure that is not FDA approved?

Here's what I found "Informed Conscent~~

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/eto/content/eto_1_2x_informed_consent.asp

From the doctor's viewpoint, informed consent means that:

A doctor or nurse must make every effort to be sure the patient understands the purpose, benefits, risks, and other options of the test or treatment. Then the doctor or nurse must get the patient's consent before starting. In some cases, even a simple blood test or an injection ("shot") requires written consent from the patient.
As long as the adult patient is mentally able to make his or her own decisions, medical care cannot begin unless the patient gives informed consent.
If the patient is a minor (under age), or has a serious mental disability, or cannot give consent, then the parent, legal guardian, or a person authorized by the court must give consent. This is usually a close family member who has reason to know what the patient would want. (See the section below, "Who besides the patient is allowed to consent?") As some very public court cases have shown, an elaborate legal system is in place to guide cases in which the patient is mentally or physically unable to give informed consent for treatment. Such cases may come up if the patient is in a coma (unconscious) or on life-support equipment.

I will leave it up to you/others to decide..

LMS

[Zenyatta]

bravo!!!!! Post of the day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. !!!!!

[VC2]

And secretly stashed in the room where the doctor was staying. I don't know what defense he could come up with for this ~ he certainly won't be able to say somebody else snuck in there and took it and gave it to MJ. MOO

ITA!! i think he concealed it in his closet knowing he had to go to the hospital with the emt's and not wanting anything found until he could get back. (he = murray)

Athena, what you said is so important as well as lynda. one we weren't in his head but most importantly the majority of information on his drug abuse was from a few years ago. Few people close to him recently have seen it or said anything about it and even the ones who talk as if they were are faces from the old days. Oddly enough they never say that on tv though. Like Oxman who is now a radio host coming across as a family spokesman at first and attorney. I doubt he had seen MJ in years or even spoken to him lately beyon a casual hello how are you. Stacy brown..another one who has not been around MJ for a long time. i could go on. Even his family admits they were "shut out" over the last months even tho he did go to the anniversary party so they can't be trusted as having any real info on him in the last year or so. The "intervention" turns out to have been from neverland!!!! years ago and perhaps one in 2007 but im not buying anything la toya says any longer..and the family denied the 2007 one. iirc he was living in ireland then no?

If we listen to the people who have seen him recently, and use our common sense imo its clear that he was doing much better than a few years ago. Just from the facts we do know, facts that have been either confirmed or obvious. 1. he was able, willing and ready to contract to a 31 date tour. there is argument over the 50 days if he wanted or not but i tend to go with the latest information from the reporter at rolling stone and from Phillips since all comments about the extra days or the 10 days come from those who either have sued him - rowe - or are no longer with him. 2.
He complied with all the things needed to get the contract signed and was certainly mentally capable enough of making decisions including the fact he wanted the doctor with him for the tour and final rehearsals. He passed an insurance exam. - insurers are not fools and don't have their doctors just accept info from the patient or even let blood be drawn by anyone but their md's in a situation like this. We are talking millions. 3.The video of his rehearsal plus all the information from people involved in them, many many people, he was in great shape and had back to his old form as well as happy..something we hadn't seen in a long time. 4. He had hired back the best of the best advisers he had over the years. The ones who were competent, had his best interests in mind and were not the leeches of recent years who he fired. 5.the first reports out of the autopsy were that the coroner was surprised at his health. overall good health not bad health as had been assumed by anyone who hadn't seen him. ok not confirmed but i trust the first reports far more than i do the wild speculation afterwards.

This is not to say that he was not still addicted to pain killers. I mention it all the time, he also had reasons to take them legitimately which put him in much more of a catch 22 than many addicts, its not nearly as easy to stop if you know you have real chronic disease/pain that need pain killers. aspirin won't work for someone who had abused them in the past anyway. i seriously doubt he was prepared or willing to try alternative biofeedback treatments when he was in pain, even if he wanted to get a handle on it. Heck im not an addict but if anyone suggested i try something other than a strong pain killer when i have pain i would shoot them :lol: So it was a little more difficult for him than just getting off the drugs..what replaces them when he needs them?

I think he was still addicted to pain killers but had greatly reduced his narcotic/opiate use to a mainetenance level for him. (i say for him because that could still be technically high when someone has an extreme tolerance due to abuse). He was not a zombie druggie, he was able to keep up with 20 year olds dancing and entertaining, be at 6 hours of rehearsal a day, work with the choreographers and directors to get his vision of the show mapped out and deal with all of this. IMO his use of diprivan was his crazy idea for dealing with severe insomnia either from reducing his need for painkillers or just a natural sleep disorder he had for years and since he had a doctor to administer and monitor it he thought he had made it just as safe as in a doctors surgical clinic, where he seems to have had it for minor surgeries. btw some acne treatments that require a dermatologist to administer it can be very painful..especially if you have a pain phobia.

Oh and another thing that seems to fit with the "getting himself together" mj is that Klein was apparently repairing his face to make it look more normal. Something that we saw the results of, he looks much more normal now than he did 5 years ago. That also tells me he was mentally getting more together because he did not think the bizarre look due all the plastic surgeries he had was ok any longer.

IMO

eta and i think it is why they seem to plan to call his death a homicide. If it was a mix of drugs he had given himself that could be lethal then imo they would have been far more hesitant. Probably are a couple of drugs in his system but as i said, greatly reduced levels and not in a level that would have killed him even with diprivan imo. There are many patients who have been given morphine or demerol to deal with extreme pain in ER until the surgeon arrives to operate an hour or two later and are still put under. That is another reason a trained anaesthesiologist is needed for putting people under at all times. it clearly was not the first night he had used diprivan and i doubt it was the only night he might have taken a pain killer too expecially after rehearsals! If it was a one time thing then that further says he was not using narcotics anywhere close to the way he had been in the past.

IMO

[Unperson1984]

What type of laws or statutes govern usage of drugs for off label uses? (Honest question -- I don't know).

I agree with you on the 2nd degree murder. Regardless of California's definition, I think a good Defense attorney would pound away at the lack of intent on Murray's part.

There are no statutes against off label use. If a drug manufacturer doesn't want their drug used off label they must to go to the extreme methods used by the manufacturer of a drug like Revlimid.

Insurance companies try to stop off label drug use by refusing to pay for prescriptions, but I doubt MJ was using Blue Cross for his drug abuse.

[Unperson1984]

I disagree that any MD can administer propofol. Even in an outpatient setting -- in ADDITION to the doctor an anesthesiologist is REQUIRED. My husband had a recent colonoscopy and an anaesthesiologist was there as well as his Doctor; doesn't matter the anaesthesia used. There is also a separate fee for the anaesthesiologist which some insurance companies pay and some not.

Dr. Murray has NO authorization to administer this in or out of the hospital:

From disney's link:

WARNINGS
For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available.

http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/diprivan.pdf?redirected=yes

I'm not sure what you mean by "authorization." Authorization from whom?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

But reckless endangerment does.



PDF version of this article


August 2008 · Vol. 20, No. 08
FOCUS ON PROFESSIONAL LIABILITY
Stuff of nightmares: Criminal prosecution for malpractice
Knowing how the law distinguishes criminal acts committed in practice from civil malpractice should ease your fears about the rare (but terrifying) prosecution




How does the law distinguish criminal culpability from its civil counterpart?

Depraved indifference to human life

Lack of timely response

Reckless endangerment

Risky therapies


What crimes can a physician commit?Any action that violates the law—insurance fraud, illicit sexual contact, theft, illegal distribution of narcotics, and tax evasion, to name several—is a criminal offense, whether perpetrated in the course of medical practice or under other circumstances.3 But a physician, by the nature of his (her) work, is in a unique position in regard to the law: When a patient in his care suffers severe or lethal injury, he may face a charge of criminal negligence, manslaughter, or second-degree murder2 (see the glossary of death-related charges

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:6PNnj22rv2gJ:www.obgmanagement.com/article_pages.asp%3FAID%3D6463+doctors+charged+wit h+2nd+degree+murder+for+reckless+endangerment&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8


imo...of course.

LOL..Ya beat me to it....I was actually going to use an example of a Dr. ( Family Practicioner) who tried to do a "Heart Transplant" in their garage..even though that surgery is not illegal..it is illegal to perform certain medical procedures beyond one's training, and lacking the proper staff and equipment in performing that procedure..

ETA..I quite realize the extreme ..but the principle still applies..

LMS:ohmy:

[Zenyatta]

There are no statutes against off label use. If a drug manufacturer doesn't want their drug used off label they must to go to the extreme methods used by the manufacturer of a drug like Revlimid.

Insurance companies try to stop off label drug use by refusing to pay for prescriptions, but I doubt MJ was using Blue Cross for his drug abuse.

Thanks, much appreciated.

[Cardinal]

I disagree he was doing better than he had been in years.

I think he was a drug addict.

I think he was backed into a corner by his ridiculous spending habits and agreed to the concerts because he needed the money to continue his ridiculous spending habit.

I also believe MJ continued to surround himself with "slimey" people

imo

So you think his death is his own fault? That he deserved to die because he was, in your opinion, a drug addict with ridiculous spending habits, surrounded by "slimey" people?

Just trying to understand your perspective, you know.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I can't help but to imagine the patient lying on top of the hood of the car parked in the garage. Thats just nuts.

Then you can only imagine my dismay when I heard Diprivan was used in MJ's home enviornment..For me..that was just as NUTS!.LOL..It is really hard to convey over a message board, personal feelings.as it can get so mis-read or mis-understood...So I pretty well stick to my own expertise, experiences..and ask for others who have other expertise to help me understand..I am no Lawyer..tho have had experiences in courtroom ( medical cases/witness)..I can only speak for myself and my own knowledge base...

LMS

[Zenyatta]

I can't help but to imagine the patient lying on top of the hood of the car parked in the garage. Thats just nuts.

What did they plan to use to restart his heart? Jumper cables?

sorry, couldn't resist...

[Lyndawitha"Y]

What did they plan to use to restart his heart? Jumper cables?

sorry, couldn't resist...


......:laugh:.....:laugh:

LMS:lol:

[Cardinal]

I've stated my opinions.

I never said he deserved to die.....everyone dies. He died prematurely because he refused to seek treatment for his addiction. Is he solely responsible?...no, he had help, that he bought and paid for. imo

I haven't seen an official cause of death yet, so I don't know why he died.

[Unperson1984]

LOL..Ya beat me to it....I was actually going to use an example of a Dr. ( Family Practicioner) who tried to do a "Heart Transplant" in their garage..even though that surgery is not illegal..it is illegal to perform certain medical procedures beyond one's training, and lacking the proper staff and equipment in performing that procedure..

ETA..I quite realize the extreme ..but the principle still applies..

LMS:ohmy:

Show me the code that restricts a doctor to certain procedures in California. And let's not assume this was the first time the drug had been used be MJ in a home setting. We know he asked at least two medical providers for it in the past.

We'll all talk more tomorrow, I'm meeting some people at Disneyland for a birthday dinner.

TTFN

[Zenyatta]

I've stated my opinions.

I never said he deserved to die.....everyone dies. He died prematurely because he refused to seek treatment for his addiction. Is he solely responsible?...no, he had help, that he bought and paid for. imo

I understand your point of view. I haven't seen anyone, even the resident troublemakers, say that Michael Jackson deserved to die.

What makes me sad is that there were many, many good people that would have been more than willing to help Michael -- Deepak Chopra and Nurse Cherilyn Lee come to mind. Those are opportunities that most people don't get, and Michael could have taken full advantage of.

[Cardinal]

I understand your point of view. I haven't seen anyone, even the resident troublemakers, say that Michael Jackson deserved to die.

~snipped~

Perhaps not. But they've come close, imo. I find the lack of compassion amazing.

[Zenyatta]

Too funny!!! Thanks for lightening it up. :laugh:

Credit goes to Lynda for that. She's the one that provided the visual of the guy on sprawled in the bed of his 4WD with a Pabst's Blue Ribbon IV drip undergoing heart surgery in his garage.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Show me the code that restricts a doctor to certain procedures in California. And let's not assume this was the first time the drug had been used be MJ in a home setting. We know he asked at least two medical providers for it in the past.

We'll all talk more tomorrow, I'm meeting some people at Disneyland for a birthday dinner.

TTFN

My bolding...Oh pleeze...in medicine one does not have to have a written code specific to one drug..or a procedure..or treatment..It is an innate understood medical legal issue when one decides to take any of these outside of its intended use!! I will not be drawn into an arguement about proving such a point!

LMS:rolleyes:

[Imperfect4]

---------------

Well said (your last sentance). But IMO theres gonna be many attorneys thats gonna find loop holes in the law and the only person held responsible for MJ's death will be MJ himself. JMO

I guess I have mixed feelings about that.

MJ, imo, was ultimately responsible, and it does us no good as a society to find others to blame for our problems. It solves nothing, in the end, but in the meantime provides encouragement for irresponsible, often criminal behavior.

On the other hand, I believe doctors who over-prescribe or knowingly allow "doctor shopping" by patients or simply choose to remain ignorant of what other treatment their patients are receiving should be held accountable for the damage they are helping to inflict.

[sunstar]

ITA!! i think he concealed it in his closet knowing he had to go to the hospital with the emt's and not wanting anything found until he could get back. (he = murray)

(snipped for space)

eta and i think it is why they seem to plan to call his death a homicide. If it was a mix of drugs he had given himself that could be lethal then imo they would have been far more hesitant. Probably are a couple of drugs in his system but as i said, greatly reduced levels and not in a level that would have killed him even with diprivan imo. There are many patients who have been given morphine or demerol to deal with extreme pain in ER until the surgeon arrives to operate an hour or two later and are still put under. That is another reason a trained anaesthesiologist is needed for putting people under at all times. it clearly was not the first night he had used diprivan and i doubt it was the only night he might have taken a pain killer too expecially after rehearsals! If it was a one time thing then that further says he was not using narcotics anywhere close to the way he had been in the past.

IMO

Good thoughts also about why it was stashed in the closet. I do think it's possible that he put it there after discovering MJ unresponsive so no one would discover it was there until he could retrieve it. Then when he was being questioned by LE and couldn't return to the house, figured he'd better admit to it being there, fearing LE would find it anyway ~ MOO. I also think MJ wasn't abusing prescription drugs when he died, but had probably cut back substantially, which in turn could've caused the insomnia. There wouldn't be a homicide investigation if the ME believed he could've died from an accidental overdose. MOO

[Zenyatta]

Perhaps not. But they've come close, imo. I find the lack of compassion amazing.

I feel immense compassion for Michael Jackson while believing he is also personally accountable for his actions. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm going to give my fellow posters the benefit of any doubt -- even the ones with whom I disagree -- and think that if they weren't compassionate, they probably wouldn't be here discussing it. Just my take. :smile:

[daniel green]

This looks like it was an interesting case and fairly recent too. He is going to be sentenced 9/22/09. I only copied those charges that could apply here (not all of them) except in this case wouldn't the administration of diprivan would be worse IMO since there is no justification of home use? This Dr also issued prescriptions in others' names.

GRAND JURY RETURNS 18-COUNT INDICTMENT IN DR. WARREN STACK CASE

INDICTMENT ALLEGES CONDUCT RESULTED IN FIVE DEATHS



http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ut/press/releases/Stack%20indictment.pdf

snipped

Well, well, well. Not THAT's interesting!!!!!!!!!!

A FEDERAL indictment, too. And conspiracy.


Arrest warrants have been issued for the three defendants in the case. The conspiracy count carries a potential penalty of up to 5 years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine. The potential penalty for counts 2-6, unlawful distribution or dispensation of a controlled substance resulting in death, is not less than 20 years per count and can go as high as life. The potential fine for each of these counts is $1 million. Counts 7-13, unlawful distribution or dispensation of a controlled substance, is up to 20 years and a $1 million fine. Counts 14-18, which allege health care fraud, have a potential penalty of up to 10 years and a $250,000 fine.

Makes one wonder, doesn't it, at the possibilitie in this case, given that the DEA was at the raid at the Houston office and at the storage unit, iirc. And the emails and hard-drive seized.

VERY interesting!!! Thx for that.

[Cardinal]

I feel immense compassion for Michael Jackson while believing he is also personally accountable for his actions. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm going to give my fellow posters the benefit of any doubt -- even the ones with whom I disagree -- and think that if they weren't compassionate, they probably wouldn't be here discussing it. Just my take. :smile:

That's a bright outlook. :) And no, the 2 concepts aren't mutually exclusive. I believe in holding people accountable for their actions. But I haven't seen anything documented about MJ's actions in the months prior to his death regarding drugs, prescription or otherwise. And until I do, unlike some, I'm not going to call him a "drug addict".

But I disagree with you that everyone here discussing it feels compassion. I've seen many other motivations for discussions here.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Slight deviation ..but does anyone know how long MJ lived a this residence??...I use the term loosely..it was a palace....

I wonder..as we all know..the longer one lives somewhere..the more stuff gets collected..

LMS:laugh:

[Imperfect4]

I understand your point of view. I haven't seen anyone, even the resident troublemakers, say that Michael Jackson deserved to die.

What makes me sad is that there were many, many good people that would have been more than willing to help Michael -- Deepak Chopra and Nurse Cherilyn Lee come to mind. Those are opportunities that most people don't get, and Michael could have taken full advantage of.

I agree. And I applaud Chopra for speaking out so quickly and so honestly about his knowledge of MJ's addictive behavior. He didn't have to do that and I'm sure has taken some grief for it. Imo, he did it for the greater good.

[sunstar]

(respectfully snipped)

Dr. Murray has NO authorization to administer this in or out of the hospital:

From disney's link:

WARNINGS
For general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available.

http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/diprivan.pdf?redirected=yes
(bolding mine)

And if Dr. M was administering diprivan to MJ, where was this medical equipment? Assuming they are filed, this is probably going to be a huge part of the homicide charges. Not only should he have administered it, but there wasn't anything in place in the event something went wrong. MOO.

[Cardinal]

I agree. And I applaud Chopra for speaking out so quickly and so honestly about his knowledge of MJ's addictive behavior. He didn't have to do that and I'm sure has taken some grief for it. Imo, he did it for the greater good.

Or his 15 minutes. :rolleyes:

[sunstar]

IMO MJ was a hoarder...it was probably used as a stock room...

I understand he was also, but it's interesting that the drugs were stashed in Dr. M's room. Why do that if he was self-injecting the diprivan? Why not in his own room(s)? :shrug: MOO

[Imperfect4]

Good thoughts also about why it was stashed in the closet. I do think it's possible that he put it there after discovering MJ unresponsive so no one would discover it was there until he could retrieve it. Then when he was being questioned by LE and couldn't return to the house, figured he'd better admit to it being there, fearing LE would find it anyway ~ MOO. I also think MJ wasn't abusing prescription drugs when he died, but had probably cut back substantially, which in turn could've caused the insomnia. There wouldn't be a homicide investigation if the ME believed he could've died from an accidental overdose. MOO

Maybe it was stashed in a closet because there were 3 young children in the house? I would imagine MJ himself, as a caring father, was careful about where he stored his drugs and drug paraphernalia.

[sunstar]

Maybe it was stashed in a closet because there were 3 young children in the house? I would imagine MJ himself, as a caring father, was careful about where he stored his drugs and drug paraphernalia.

Good point ~ I'm sure he didn't want his children to get into it. But this was the diprivan, in Dr. M's room/closet. It's the exact location that indicates to me that Dr. M was using it. MOO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

My understanding is that diprivan is not a controlled substance.

definition of a controlled substance (in your neck of the woods)


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Controlled+substance

controlled substance n. a drug which has been declared by federal or state law to be illegal for sale or use, but may be dispensed under a physician's prescription. The basis for control and regulation is the danger of addiction, abuse, physical and mental harm (including death), the trafficking by illegal means, and the dangers from actions of those who have used the substances. (See: narcotics)

please note the last bracketed ..Diprivan was not considered a controlled substance..mainly because it is not a perscriptive drug..dispensed by pharmacies to the public..However, given it's pharmacological uses..It likely was understood..NOT TO BE USED outside of its intended setting and parameters...i.e outside of surgical units with administrations by specifically trained people...

I have to ask..why are the only other cases being sighted are abuses by Medical People???

Having said that...it will no doubt have a huge printed warning on all labels..NOT TO BE USED BY UNAUTHORIZED..or something along those lines..

LMS

[Cardinal]

definition of a controlled substance (in your neck of the woods)


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Controlled+substance

controlled substance n. a drug which has been declared by federal or state law to be illegal for sale or use, but may be dispensed under a physician's prescription. The basis for control and regulation is the danger of addiction, abuse, physical and mental harm (including death), the trafficking by illegal means, and the dangers from actions of those who have used the substances. (See: narcotics)

please note the last bracketed ..Diprivan was not considered a controlled substance..mainly because it is not a perscriptive drug..dispensed by pharmacies to the public..However, given it's pharmacological uses..It likely was understood..NOT TO BE USED outside of its intended setting and parameters...i.e outside of surgical units with administrations by specifically trained people...

I have to ask..why are the only other cases being sighted are abuses by Medical People???

Having said that...it will no doubt have a huge printed warning on all labels..NOT TO BE USED BY UNAUTHORIZED..or something along those lines..

LMS

Which, imo, is right up there with drive-through coffee cups that say "Warning - hot beverage".

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Good point ~ I'm sure he didn't want his children to get into it. But this was the diprivan, in Dr. M's room/closet. It's the exact location that indicates to me that Dr. M was using it. MOO

or maybe administering it to someone...that of course is if you meant Dr. M. was self injecting...

LMS

[Imperfect4]

I feel immense compassion for Michael Jackson while believing he is also personally accountable for his actions. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm going to give my fellow posters the benefit of any doubt -- even the ones with whom I disagree -- and think that if they weren't compassionate, they probably wouldn't be here discussing it. Just my take. :smile:

Well said. Since when is a belief in personal responsibility the equivalent of a lack of compassion?

The thing is, at some point, we all need to "grow up." We do a terrible disservice to everyone in our lives, particularly our children, and society as a whole when we don't, as adults, make every attempt to reconcile our pasts (no matter how dysfunctional), recognize our weaknesses, and take steps to grow beyond them.

I view it as our duty when we reach adulthood.

[Imperfect4]

Or his 15 minutes. :rolleyes:

Oh my goodness! Weren't you the one upthread chiding others for a lack of compassion? :confused:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Which, imo, is right up there with drive-through coffee cups that say "Warning - hot beverage".

Goodness..I am really going to read that menue..next time I run thru a "Drive Thru".....LOL

Kidding aside..it is those very labelings that protects the pharmaceutical industry from huge law suits!

LMS

[Imperfect4]

I disagree...but am unable to get into why I disagree....

Ack! (My PM function is enabled. :smile:)

[daniel green]

[B] snipped

Detox is conducted under close medical supervision during the withdrawal phase. Withdrawal symptoms may range from mild irritability to seizures and even death. Other common withdrawal symptoms include anxiety, panic, depression, incoherent thoughts, muscle cramps, vomiting, or nausea.

When patients first enter a detox unit, they are given medications to ease the symptoms of withdrawal. They may be given tranquilizers, anti-hypertensive drugs, or other medications. Some patients may be given small doses of their drug to which they’re addicted with the intent of gradually tapering the doses. This detox process usually takes several days, perhaps longer, depending on the type of drug to which one is addicted.

http://www.prescriptiondrugaddiction.com/treatment.asp

Thx!!!! Just like what I wrote out on pg 2 that some folks were asking a link for. :laugh:

[Cardinal]

Well said. Since when is a belief in personal responsibility the equivalent of a lack of compassion?

The thing is, at some point, we all need to "grow up." We do a terrible disservice to everyone in our lives, particularly our children, and society as a whole when we don't, as adults, make every attempt to reconcile our pasts (no matter how dysfunctional), recognize our weaknesses, and take steps to grow beyond them.

I view it as our duty when we reach adulthood.

I agree with you. In a perfect world. Unfortunately, the world isn't perfect, and neither are most of the people in it.

By his own admission, MJ didn't choose to "grow up". Would I want to live with someone who didn't choose to "grow up"? No. Does his choice give anyone, other than his children and a higher power, the right to judge him? No, imo.

[Zenyatta]

Well said. Since when is a belief in personal responsibility the equivalent of a lack of compassion?

The thing is, at some point, we all need to "grow up." We do a terrible disservice to everyone in our lives, particularly our children, and society as a whole when we don't, as adults, make every attempt to reconcile our pasts (no matter how dysfunctional), recognize our weaknesses, and take steps to grow beyond them.

I view it as our duty when we reach adulthood.

Ah, thanks. Right back at ya.

Like TDT, I reserve the bulk of my compassion for Michael's children. And Michael was not only accountable to himself, but to his children, whom he choose to have, and who had no choice in the matter.

Their lives will be forever impacted by his decisions, just as Michael's was affected by the choices made by his parents. IMO.

[Cardinal]

Oh my goodness! Weren't you the one upthread chiding others for a lack of compassion? :confused:

I didn't chide anyone - I simply expressed my amazement at the lack of compassion for a deceased person. Does that clear up your confusion?

[Cardinal]

Goodness..I am really going to read that menue..next time I run thru a "Drive Thru".....LOL

Kidding aside..it is those very labelings that protects the pharmaceutical industry from huge law suits!

LMS

I know, and the fast food places are hoping for the same indemnification. I just have a problem with trying to legislate common sense! But that's a whole nother thread!

[daniel green]

Fact 10: Most non-violent drug users get treatment, not just jail time.

There is a myth in this country that U.S. prisons are filled with drug users. This assertion is simply not true. snipped

Right. Which is why I found it preposterous that someone upthread said MJ should have gone to jail for using drugs. :rolleyes:

As if jails/prisons were not full at 3 times the max already.

[Imperfect4]

I agree with you. In a perfect world. Unfortunately, the world isn't perfect, and neither are most of the people in it.

By his own admission, MJ didn't choose to "grow up". Would I want to live with someone who didn't choose to "grow up"? No. Does his choice give anyone, other than his children and a higher power, the right to judge him? No, imo.

No, it's surely not a perfect world. So should we shrug our shoulders and slide on into hell? I don't view that as our purpose in life.

And does your acceptance of MJ's shortcomings extend to an acceptance of Dr. Murray's as well? Just curious.

[daniel green]

Guess it does not matter that the propofol was not found in Dr. Murray's offices:


Hidden Drug Stash Found in Jackson's House
Posted Jul 25th 2009 8:30AM by TMZ Staff

Sources say when the LAPD first searched Jackson's home the night he died, they did not turn up Propofol or many of the other drugs that were in Jackson's house.

Dr. Murray talked to the LAPD the following Saturday and the information he supplied triggered another, broader search warrant. Cops returned to the house the following Monday and discovered "various drugs" secretly stashed in a closet of the guest room where Dr. Murray was staying.

One law enforcement source says: "The drugs were concealed...they weren't obvious." Among the stash -- Propofol, the drug authorities believe killed Michael Jackson.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/25/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-drug-stash-lapd-propofol/

Yikes.

Has he gotten a team of criminal lawyers yet? :ohmy:

[Cardinal]

No, it's surely not a perfect world. So should we shrug our shoulders and slide on into hell? I don't view that as our purpose in life.

And does your acceptance of MJ's shortcomings extend to an acceptance of Dr. Murray's as well? Just curious.

To a point. I hold him to a higher standard than MJ, due to his hippocratic oath. I've seen several posts about MJ "buying" doctors. But you can't buy someone who isn't for sale, and I don't believe anyone who takes that oath should be for sale. Another accountability issue, imo.

[Imperfect4]

I didn't chide anyone - I simply expressed my amazement at the lack of compassion for a deceased person. Does that clear up your confusion?

Not really, since I don't see a lack of compassion here. But thanks for your concern. :smile:

[Cardinal]

Not really, since I don't see a lack of compassion here. But thanks for your concern. :smile:

Don't you? How interesting.

[daniel green]

What a sad story. Didn't one of MJ's insiders say he was taking up to 40 xanax a day? I thought that would be impossible. Now, you say this college kid was taking 20 a day and drinking, too. This just blows me away. I would think they'd go into respiratory arrest. I read somewhere that wine and xanax could be a deadly combination ( no link), that it could be a problem with middle school kids who sneak the drug out of the parent's medicine cabinet.

And ITA with your comment that these docs should go to jail.

MOO Aggie

The cops who found him after his car rolled over 4 times told him they had no idea how he lived. Yeah, it was sad to see him, such a smart kid, nice kid, with such an addiction. And going to one of the country's best universities. I've wanted so badly to ask how he is doing, but given HIPPA laws, they would not be able to tell me.

Kids getting into scripts and med cabinets is frightening, very frightening. Addiction to Rx drugs is the leading cause of addiction in this country.

(Xanax withdrawal as well as alcohol detox could have caused his seizures in the wait room. He'd been held in jail overnight for the traffic charges, so he had gone 12-14 hrs without either)

[Imperfect4]

To a point. I hold him to a higher standard than MJ, due to his hippocratic oath. I've seen several posts about MJ "buying" doctors. But you can't buy someone who isn't for sale, and I don't believe anyone who takes that oath should be for sale. Another accountability issue, imo.

I hold persons "in authority" -- including doctors -- to a high standard myself. MJ was a person "in authority" in his own right, by virtue of his standing as a pop icon, idol, hero, superstar, etc. To your point, he didn't take an oath like the good doctor no doubt was required to.

However, I am idly curious how much compassion Dr. Murray would receive here if, hypothetically speaking, it was revealed he was also a substance abuser.

[daniel green]

Yes and the fact that the emails were sent to Dr. Klein. I do wonder what their connection was?

Not sure if you read this:

We've learned Dr. Arnold Klein once took Michael Jackson to the office next door to his -- run by a gynecologist specializing in vaginal rejuvenation -- to perform a minor acne treatment on the singer under full anesthesia.

Dr. Richmond says, per Klein's request, he got an anesthesiologist and a scrub tech who worked on Jackson.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/klein-does-surgery-on-jackson-in-gyno-office/


Here's how crazy it got: The L.A. County Coroner's office took Jackson's medical records from Dr. Arnold Klein last week. Law enforcement sources tell us, Klein used the name Omar Arnold on some of the files. We're told inside those files, the doctor refers to Jackson by his real name.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/michael-jackson-alias-doctor-arnold-klein-la-county-coroner-omar-arnold-drugs/

What a crazy story, eh???? :scared:

The thing about a connection like this, and emails and fed ex pckgs is how easy that can become a conspiracy in an indictment.

I did not realize that there were Kelin emails with MJ's name on them.:ohmy:

[Zenyatta]

"Wacky Warning Contest Winner"

http://www.examiner.com/x-3747-Louisville-City-Hall-Examiner~y2009m6d16-Wacky-warning-label-contest-winner

//snip//
Other winners include:

A wart removal product instruction guide that warns, “Do not use if you cannot see clearly to read the information in the information booklet.”

A label on the underside of a cereal bowl warns, “Always use this product with adult supervision.”

A small, 1” x 4” LCD panel warns, “Do not eat the LCD panel.”

A bag of livestock castration rings warns, “For animal use only.”
//snip//

For more:

http://www.wackywarnings.com/

Hope I didn't offend anyone with the off topic black humour. Back to our regularly scheduled program....

[Cardinal]

I hold persons "in authority" -- including doctors -- to a high standard myself. MJ was a person "in authority" in his own right, by virtue of his standing as a pop icon, idol, hero, superstar, etc. To your point, he didn't take an oath like the good doctor no doubt was required to.

However, I am idly curious how much compassion Dr. Murray would receive here if, hypothetically speaking, it was revealed he was also substance abuser.

If, hypothetically speaking, Dr. Murray were a substance abuser, AND if he was only harming himself, he would receive the same compassion from me. If, hypothetically speaking, he were a substance abuser AND was harming a patient, there would be significantly less compassion from me.

And your "in authority" analogy for MJ doesn't work for me.

[Imperfect4]

IMO Michael Jackson had a much more important title....."Daddy"

Good point. Should've added that to my response upthread. :thumbup:

[Cardinal]

But being a human being does.


imo...of course.

:) For most of us.

[Imperfect4]

If, hypothetically speaking, Dr. Murray were a substance abuser, AND if he was only harming himself, he would receive the same compassion from me. If, hypothetically speaking, he were a substance abuser AND was harming a patient, there would be significantly less compassion from me.

And your "in authority" analogy for MJ doesn't work for me.

I can accept you don't believe today's celebrities qualify as role models ("in authority" figures, imo), but I must heartily disagree.

Do you feel MJ was only harming himself with his addiction?

[daniel green]

I think the doctor probably screwed up big time. I think his cooperation with LE will be helpful to him as all this moves forward toward a conclusion.

snipped.

I think he should have kept his mouth shut. It was his telling the police about the stash in the closet that led them to it AFTER they had searched the home.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Being dead ...doesn't earn someone the right to boat loads of compassion. IMO

I dont wish to use the term compassion..I prefer the word of "Empathy",,and that to me only means I have an understanding..not necessarily condoning or accepting..but understanding...

It is that find line for me, in my work..as strict compassion is not helpful..but empathy allows me to take things as they are..and deal with them..all the while not trying to be judgemental...A very fine line to walk..and I have been doing it for 4 decades..so I do understand the confusion for some..

While some here already know my thoughts on MJ..I have not allowed those thoughts ( actually have let them go completely) to try and learn something..to seek answers to all the questions surrounding this death.

Now..I DO have compassion for the "Innocents" left behind..however the facilitators.enablers...NONE!

LMS

[Cardinal]

I can accept you don't believe today's celebrities qualify as role models ("in authority" figures, imo), but I must heartily disagree.

Do you feel MJ was only harming himself with his addiction?

Celebrities are made celebrities by the media and the public, not by themselves. And they are only role models for those who lack real ones, imo. Celebrities are human beings with a talent that gets them recognition, but they are human beings nevertheless. And to hold them to some higher standard is rather naive, imo.

And no, IF MJ had an addiction he was harming his children as well. And like I said earlier, his children and a higher power are the only ones in a position to judge him, if that's true. JMO

[who_is_it]

IMO Michael Jackson had a much more important title....."Daddy"

Even the accuser's mother saw in him a "daddy":

"She [Janet Arvizo] said that Michael's been like a father to her children; that she was upset about it; that he has been very good to her children. He's more like a – more than their father had ever been."

source: testimony by social worker Irene Peters, 05/17/05, page 10636 - 10637

[Cardinal]

Don't know about you...but when a few certain people on death row are executed, I'll be glad...not even an ounce of compassion from me they will get! imo..obviously.

What do people on death row have to do with MJ?

[daniel green]

snipped Like Oxman who is now a radio host coming across as a family spokesman at first and attorney.

E'ning, VC!

However, Oxman was at the hospital with the family and it appears that what he said that night was true. About this being worse than ANS, etc.

[Imperfect4]

I think he should have kept his mouth shut. It was his telling the police about the stash in the closet that led them to it AFTER they had searched the home.

Should have kept his mouth shut to save his own skin? Perhaps the doctor is genuinely remorseful for what happened and is being cooperative as a result?

Honesty. What a concept! :smile:

(Just giving Dr. Murray the benefit of the doubt, since I think he's as deserving of it as his patient until proven otherwise.)

[Imperfect4]

Celebrities are made celebrities by the media and the public, not by themselves. And they are only role models for those who lack real ones, imo. Celebrities are human beings with a talent that gets them recognition, but they are human beings nevertheless. And to hold them to some higher standard is rather naive, imo.

And no, IF MJ had an addiction he was harming his children as well. And like I said earlier, his children and a higher power are the only ones in a position to judge him, if that's true. JMO

Doctors are also human beings. To assume they are infallible is also naive, imo.

You've mentioned "judgment" twice now, I believe. I don't know about you, but I'm discussing the case, not sitting in judgment of anyone.

[Cardinal]

Won't they get your compassion too? I'm pretty sure they've had terrible childhoods too. imo

What does my level of compassion for MJ have to do with anything?????

Anyone's death has my compassion - for the people they leave behind grieving, if for no other reason.

As I said initially, I find your level of compassion for MJ indicative of your perspective in this discussion.

Did you find out how to put people on ignore yet? I'll be glad to PM you, if not.

[daniel green]

I disagree he was doing better than he had been in years.

I think he was a drug addict.

I think he was backed into a corner by his ridiculous spending habits and agreed to the concerts because he needed the money to continue his ridiculous spending habit.

I also believe MJ continued to surround himself with "slimey" people

imo

Completely agree. I see the Diprivan use as end-stage addiction gone out of control and with a doctor unethical enough and uncaring enough to administer it in a home setting.

[Cardinal]

Doctors are also human beings. To assume they are infallible is also naive, imo.

You've mentioned "judgment" twice now, I believe. I don't know about you, but I'm discussing the case, not sitting in judgment of anyone.

I'm glad to hear that. Would that were true of everyone.

I never said doctors are infallible. I said I hold them to a higher standard, due to the oath they take. If Dr. Murray administered drugs to MJ outside the parameters of his profession, I believe he should be held accountable for that. Don't you?

[Imperfect4]

Anyone's death has my compassion - for the people they leave behind grieving, if for no other reason.

As I said initially, I find your level of compassion for MJ indicative of your perspective in this discussion.

Did you find out how to put people on ignore yet? I'll be glad to PM you, if not.

My bold. Isn't that a judgment you're making?

[Imperfect4]

I'm glad to hear that. Would that were true of everyone.

I never said doctors are infallible. I said I hold them to a higher standard, due to the oath they take. If Dr. Murray administered drugs to MJ outside the parameters of his profession, I believe he should be held accountable for that. Don't you?

Absolutely, and no matter what his own weaknesses may be. Perhaps a weakness for financial stability. Perhaps his own weakness for drugs. Just as was the case with MJ, Dr. Murray is responsible for his own behavior. Whatever the demons, it is the responsibility of every adult to challenge his or her own. Excuses serve no purpose. imo

[Cardinal]

My bold. Isn't that a judgment you're making?

No, it's simply an attempt to put a poster's comments into context. I'm surprised you can't make that distinction.

I thought you wanted to discuss this case.

[daniel green]

There are no statutes against off label use. If a drug manufacturer doesn't want their drug used off label they must to go to the extreme methods used by the manufacturer of a drug like Revlimid.

Insurance companies try to stop off label drug use by refusing to pay for prescriptions, but I doubt MJ was using Blue Cross for his drug abuse.

Not sure how off-label use came up as a discussion.

Because one thing is someone using Retin-A to fight wrinkles (and a dermatologist Rxing it for that) and then just totally crazy irresponsible giving someone diprivan at home is in a whole different category.

It's not like an diprivan is used off-label for any darn thing.

Kinda like saying that one can either Rx or use demerol "off-label" as a sleep aid. :rolleyes:

[Imperfect4]

No, it's simply an attempt to put a poster's comments into context. I'm surprised you can't make that distinction.

I thought you wanted to discuss this case.

You're getting a little snarky there, Cardinal. Not necessary. :smile:

[Cardinal]

Absolutely, and no matter what his own weaknesses may be. Perhaps a weakness for financial stability. Perhaps his own weakness for drugs. Just as was the case with MJ, Dr. Murray is responsible for his own behavior. Whatever the demons, it is the responsibility of every adult to challenge his or her own. Excuses serve no purpose. imo

I agree, and I have made no excuses for anyone. Like most here, I am simply trying to come to terms with, and understand, the dynamics of the situation that caused MJ's death.

[daniel green]

Absolutely, and no matter what his own weaknesses may be. Perhaps a weakness for financial stability. Perhaps his own weakness for drugs. Just as was the case with MJ, Dr. Murray is responsible for his own behavior. Whatever the demons, it is the responsibility of every adult to challenge his or her own. Excuses serve no purpose. imo

No matter what ppl may think, medical and scientific communities agree 100% that addiction is not a matter of will or weakness. It is a disease.

[Imperfect4]

I agree, and I have made no excuses for anyone. Like most here, I am simply trying to come to terms with, and understand, the dynamics of the situation that caused MJ's death.

On that we agree. :smile:

I do find myself wishing this kind of attention and concern might be given to, say, just one fallen member of the armed forces who gave his or her life so we could all enjoy the freedom to sit at our computers and discuss the life and death of Michael Jackson.

[Cardinal]

No matter what ppl may think, medical and scientific communities agree 100% that addiction is not a matter of will or weakness. It is a disease.

Yes, it is. And IF MJ had an addiction, his doctor should have made every effort to treat the disease, rather than enable it. IMO

[daniel green]

LOL..Ya beat me to it....I was actually going to use an example of a Dr. ( Family Practicioner) who tried to do a "Heart Transplant" in their garage..even though that surgery is not illegal..it is illegal to perform certain medical procedures beyond one's training, and lacking the proper staff and equipment in performing that procedure..

ETA..I quite realize the extreme ..but the principle still applies..

LMS:ohmy:

Exactly. That's it, exactly.

[Imperfect4]

No matter what ppl may think, medical and scientific communities agree 100% that addiction is not a matter of will or weakness. It is a disease.

And as I asked you the other night, and you did not answer ... how do you suppose addicts get sober?

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Yes, it is. And IF MJ had an addiction, his doctor should have made every effort to treat the disease, rather than enable it. IMO


I agree..and it does seem some did attempt to reason with him..and point out the errors in his thinking..however..HC professionals cannot always help these people..who are bent of self destruction..If
those that try and fail should fee responsible..that is not helpful either..however...for those HC professional that potentiated that behavior should be feeling guilty at this point...believe me Cardinal.I know from personal experience if we collapse because of our failure to reach some who obviously need help..we would be a dying breed...Sometimes for the ones who deny or refuse to facilitate..gets ousted..ignored rejected..we should never stop trying..however we should NOT blame ourselves either if the addicted ends up dead...

NOW...if you are the HC professional who condoned the addictions no matter what kind ... by faciliatating..then I do hold them responsible for their actions/their part in the demise...Course.that is just me..

LMS

[daniel green]

And as I asked you the other night, and you did not answer ... how do you suppose addicts get sober?

With effective treatment.

Well, with detox, but that is putting too fine a point on it. So I will go with just effective treatment.

[Cardinal]

I agree..and it does seem some did attempt to reason with him..and point out the errors in his thinking..however..HC professionals cannot always help these people..who are bent of self destruction..If
those that try and fail should fee responsible..that is not helpful either..however...for those HC professional that potentiated that behavior should be feeling guilty at this point...believe me Cardinal.I know from personal experience if we collapse because of our failure to reach some who obviously need help..we would be a dying breed...Sometimes for the ones who deny or refuse to facilitate..gets ousted..ignored rejected..we should ever stop trying..however we should blame ourselves either if the addicted ends up dead...

NOW...if you are the HC professional who condoned the addictions no matter what kind ... by faciliatating..then I do hold them responsible for their actions/their part in the demise...Course.that is just me..

LMS

I honestly don't know what to believe about the "intervention" stories at this point, Lynda. On some level, I believe some members of MJ's family did try to reach out, and perhaps were rejected. And, if true, I find that very sad.

But I do hold the HC professionals in his life to a higher standard. Regardless of what they were paid or what they perceived their actions to be, they had a responsibility to the oath they took to do no harm. IMO

[Imperfect4]

With effective treatment.

Well, with detox, but that is putting too fine a point on it. So I will go with just effective treatment.

And who makes the decision to go for effective treatment?

[daniel green]

And who makes the decision to go for effective treatment?

To quote our President, that question is way above my pay grade, I'm afraid.

[daniel green]

But isn't entering treatment a choice? snipped

Not always.

However, we are getting far afield from the topic here and I will stay on topic.

[Imperfect4]

But isn't entering treatment a choice? Doesn't the addict play a part? everyday of recovery?

Absolutely, he or she does. And any substance abuse specialist will tell you that. Even if laws allowed us to commit addicts against their will to detox and treatment programs, any expert in the field will tell you it simply will not "take" without the desire and full cooperation of the substance abuser.

No doctor should ever help an addict stay addicted, especially knowingly, but with MJ's resources and what appears to have been his single-minded focus on getting whatever drugs he wanted, he would never have run out of ways to get high or get anesthetized or whatever his desire might be. Only he, MJ, could make the ultimate decision to get and stay sober.

[Imperfect4]

To quote our President, that question is way above my pay grade, I'm afraid.

I can accept that. I just thought I'd read some of your posts indicating it was up to others to do that for Michael, even against his will. My point -- it doesn't work that way.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Absolutely, he or she does. And any substance abuse specialist will tell you that. Even if laws allowed us to commit addicts against their will to detox and treatment programs, any expert in the field will tell you it simply will not "take" without the desire and full cooperation of the substance abuser.

No doctor should ever help an addict stay addicted, especially knowingly, but with MJ's resources and what appears to have been his single-minded focus on getting whatever drugs he wanted, he would never have run out of ways to get high or get anesthetized or whatever his desire might be. Only he, MJ, could make the ultimate decision to get and stay sober.

Very well said Imperfect..and I do realize you are NOT blaming the addict entirely...but all addicts have to accept they are an addict, then they have to be willing to do the work required to set themselves free..but I do draw a line when credentialed professional abuse their power to feed whatever addiction presents..

I do however..find it futile to try and blame just the addict..there are so many parts/plyers in anyones addiction lifestyle...and I also believe it was MJ's money that made it appeaing for those Physicians to risk their licensing..to meet MJ's demands...I really do doubt a Medical Professional would risk their life, liberty and livelihood on just a demand for drugs..And it those greedy ones that I personally detest...It is just not acceptable for me!

LMS

[daniel green]

I can accept that. I just thought I'd read some of your posts indicating it was up to others to do that for Michael, even against his will. My point -- it doesn't work that way.

Nope. I never said that.

[Imperfect4]

Very well said Imperfect..and I do realize you are NOT blaming the addict entirely...but all addicts have to accept they are an addict, then they have to be willing to do the work required to set themselves free..but I do draw a line when credentialed professional abuse their power to feed whatever addiction presents..

I do however..find it futile to try and blame just the addict..there are so many parts/plyers in anyones addiction lifestyle...and I also believe it was MJ's money that made it appeaing for those Physicians to risk their licensing..to meet MJ's demands...I really do doubt a Medical Professional would risk their life, liberty and livelihood on just a demand for drugs..And it those greedy ones that I personally detest...It is just not acceptable for me!

LMS

Someone close to me is a recovering addict, drug of choice was heroin. He spent half his life using. He's in his early 30's now, and has been clean and sober about a year and a half. :smile:

Unlike MJ, he didn't have the financial or "fame" resources to get prescription drugs, or do any doctor shopping, or have personal physicians, or hide out in any number of fine homes or other countries, or float through life on a cloud of fame which made him untouchable.

He was just your average street addict who slept under benches and in other people's cars, and wound up in jail quite often, with the occasional hospital stay to treat the ravages of his addiction and lifestyle.

Eventually, he got sick of living that way and started the long, hard crawl out of his hole. At the end of the day, his choice was to die an addict, or get help. I think MJ had the same choices, at the end of the day.

[Imperfect4]

Nope. I never said that.

Okay. I must've confused you with someone else. Apologies. :smile:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Someone close to me is a recovering addict, drug of choice was heroin. He spent half his life using. He's in his early 30's now, and has been clean and sober about a year and a half. :smile:

Unlike MJ, he didn't have the financial or "fame" resources to get prescription drugs, or do any doctor shopping, or have personal physicians, or hide out in any number of fine homes or other countries, or float through life on a cloud of fame which made him untouchable.

He was just your average street addict who slept under benches and in other people's cars, and wound up in jail quite often, with the occasional hospital stay to treat the ravages of his addiction and lifestyle.

Eventually, he got sick of living that way and started the long, hard crawl out of his hole. At the end of the day, his choice was to die an addict, or get help. I think MJ had the same choices, at the end of the day.

I do have compassiona for people such as yourself..as you are walking in those shoes of understanding just what and how addiction of just one person directly effects those around them...and I also find it rediculous to compare addicts such as Mj to regular, non-wealthy, non-famous addicts...as unfortunately those addicts truly have to crawl on the streets, begging or stealing for their next fix..MJ..and his problem is yet another level..and from history..he is not alone..we have heard of many rich famous and affluent that have died because of their inability to get/ACCEPT PROPER help..and that is where I draw that line.....for any medical professional to nurture, profit from someones failings is just unacceptible for me...

Bless you and I pray for you to maintain..I think you know what I mean..:loveeyes:

LMS

[Imperfect4]

I do have compassiona for people such as yourself..as you are walking in those shoes of understanding just what and how addiction of just one person directly effects those around them...and I also find it rediculous to compare addicts such as Mj to regular, non-wealthy, non-famous addicts...as unfortunately those addicts truly have to crawl on the streets, begging or stealing for their next fix..MJ..and his problem is yet another level..and from history..he is not alone..we have heard of many rich famous and affluent that have died because of their inability to get/ACCEPT PROPER help..and that is where I draw that line.....for any medical professional to nurture, profit from someones failings is just unacceptible for me...

Bless you and I pray for you to maintain..I think you know what I mean..:loveeyes:

LMS

Thanks, Lynda. Fortunately, I came on the scene late in the game, and didn't have to endure him up-close-and-personal while he was using. From the stories I've heard, it was hell.

There have been studies done recently which indicate the single most important thing to young people in this country today is fame. Even money, material things, big jobs, and all the usual trappings of success don't rank up there with a lust we have in this country for fame.

Seems the doctors who helped MJ get and take his drugs are good examples of this *fame sickness* we seem to suffer from. (And I realize you're up in Canada, so I'm not including ya'll in this, because I have no idea whether your country worships fame to the extent mine does.)

[daniel green]

Someone close to me is a recovering addict, drug of choice was heroin. He spent half his life using. He's in his early 30's now, and has been clean and sober about a year and a half. :smile:
snipped.

Mazel tov!!!!!!!

[VC2]

E'ning, VC!

However, Oxman was at the hospital with the family and it appears that what he said that night was true. About this being worse than ANS, etc.

I don;t think Oxman had a clue, he was going by knowing mj in the past and even though i am certain he was addicted to pain killing drugs i am not so certain that he was using heavily at the time of his death. In fact things point to the opposite. Yes he was right about it being bigger than ANS but imo he would have laughed at the idea that it was a homicide. He thought it had everything to do with prescription drug abuse, that is all he talked about.

Diprivan i see as a separate issue. Unless you know that he was using it for some bizarre high that lasted a few seconds when he had so much more available that was easier to get and give, i think the extremely likely scenario was a crazy idea that made sense to him for severe insomnia. That may even have been brought on by reducing his narcotic usage. I might have asked a doctor about it too if nothing got me to sleep properly when after numerous surgeries, short and long i discovered that it had no bad side effects on me. no i cant imagine doing it but i can see why he thought it would work as a layman. If he was told that it was dangerous and had to be done in the hospital, he was in a position to "make a hospital setting" by hiring a physician and assuming he had equipment and knew what he was doing.

dont get me wrong, i think he had an addiction to painkillers. I just believe he had started to get his life together and was at the least using far less than at its heights.

He would still be alive today IMO if Murray had even been the least bit competent. Apart from the totally unethical part about administering it whatsoever in a home, he was completely incompetent in terms of training in anaesthesiology, and had complete reckless disregard for human life by not having rescue equipment with him..not even a personal defibrillator.

Those things MJ would have expected from a physician, and no one will convince me murray told him he was unable, untrained and would kill him if he did it. Which is why it looks like its coming down to a murder charge (manslaughter is murder too) for Murray. This is far and away totally different from a doc writing a prescription.

imo

[who_is_it]

I do have compassiona for people such as yourself..as you are walking in those shoes of understanding just what and how addiction of just one person directly effects those around them...and I also find it rediculous to compare addicts such as Mj to regular, non-wealthy, non-famous addicts...as unfortunately those addicts truly have to crawl on the streets, begging or stealing for their next fix..MJ..and his problem is yet another level..and from history..he is not alone..we have heard of many rich famous and affluent that have died because of their inability to get/ACCEPT PROPER help..and that is where I draw that line.....for any medical professional to nurture, profit from someones failings is just unacceptible for me...

Bless you and I pray for you to maintain..I think you know what I mean..:loveeyes:

LMS

I don't find it ridiculous to compare street addicts and addicted celebrities. The structure of the disease is the same.

It also lasts longer until celebrities hit rock bottom.

Street addicts get their drugs on black markets and officially prescribed as substitutes, famous addicts just get them prescribed by their doctors. If street addicts die from substitutes it's "socially tolerated" -- at least not investigated in a way the MJ case is.

[Imperfect4]

I don't find it ridiculous to compare street addicts and addicted celebrities. The structure of the disease is the same.

It also lasts longer until celebrities hit rock bottom.

Street addicts get their drugs on black markets and officially prescribed as substitutes, famous addicts just get them prescribed by their doctors. If street addicts die from substitutes it's "socially tolerated" -- at least not investigated in a way the MJ case is.

Good point. And in fact, I think recovering addicts make it a point not to separate themselves from other substance abusers, either by substance of choice, or by whether they're addicted to legal or illegal substances.

[who_is_it]

Good point. And in fact, I think recovering addicts make it a point not to separate themselves from other substance abusers, either by substance of choice, or by whether they're addicted to legal or illegal substances.

It's true that recovering addicts often don't separate themselves from other addicts... and relapse. Imo it's because they often have no other friends.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I don't find it ridiculous to compare street addicts and addicted celebrities. The structure of the disease is the same.

It also lasts longer until celebrities hit rock bottom.

Street addicts get their drugs on black markets and officially prescribed as substitutes, famous addicts just get them prescribed by their doctors. If street addicts die from substitutes it's "socially tolerated" -- at least not investigated in a way the MJ case is.

I do think you entirely missed my point..it does not take a rocket scientist to recocognize..that a rich addict has more resources..than a regular addict..thus you find far more convictions of drug possession and abuses..not to mention murder and mayhem by that ( scuse my term here) lower level addicts...

OF course..it is a disease..but like any other disease it is managed far differently by the rich than the poor who dont have the money to buy the drug, buy off possible squealers.or beter yet..buy professionals to feed their habit...and that is my point..

Sorry..if you misunderstood
LMS

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I guess it is time I left..as it seems my input here is not being received as I intended..

Salut
LMS

[who_is_it]

I do think you entirely missed my point..it does not take a rocket scientist to recocognize..that a rich addict has more resources..than a regular addict..thus you find far more convictions of drug possession and abuses..not to mention murder and mayhem by that ( scuse my term here) lower level addicts...

OF course..it is a disease..but like any other disease it is managed far differently by the rich than the poor who dont have the money to buy the drug, buy off possible squealers.or beter yet..buy professionals to feed their habit...and that is my point..

Sorry..if you misunderstood
LMS

It didn't miss your point; I just added my own related thoughts to yours.

Professionals also feed the habits of street addicts by the prescription of substitute drugs. The only difference is that THIS is somehow socially tolerated imo. It's blamed on the abuser only.

[RootBeer]

It's true that recovering addicts often don't separate themselves from other addicts... and relapse. Imo it's because they often have no other friends.

I agree, I see this problem on the show "Intervention".

[daniel green]

I agree, I see this problem on the show "Intervention".

I love that show. It shows the reality of it, the mayhem it causes on family and loved ones, the pain of addict and the truth about recovery.

[daniel green]

I do think you entirely missed my point..it does not take a rocket scientist to recocognize..that a rich addict has more resources..than a regular addict..thus you find far more convictions of drug possession and abuses..not to mention murder and mayhem by that ( scuse my term here) lower level addicts...

OF course..it is a disease..but like any other disease it is managed far differently by the rich than the poor who dont have the money to buy the drug, buy off possible squealers.or beter yet..buy professionals to feed their habit...and that is my point..

Sorry..if you misunderstood
LMS

I don't think anyone misunderstood.

No addict "manages" the disease differently. It is certainly not better managed by addicts with money.

The idea of a "lower level addict" is totally anathema to the concept of addiction as a disease or the treatment option. :tongueside: I don't even know what to day about that.

In 12 step programs addicts, no matter what their bank accounts show, all say, hello, I am so and so and I am an addict. I think that speaks directly to the misguided notion that there are different levels of addicts.

[daniel green]

snipped

1) Believes MJ died because Dr. Murray fell asleep and was not adjusting the flow of diprivan which has to be done continuously

2) Says MJ WAS receiving diprivan in Dr. Klein's office

3) Debbie Rowe is the one who was injecting MJ with demerol for pain a couple of years ago and even kept a log (showed log on TV - had stopped working for Dr Klein by that time)

4) Nose was not the result of plastic surgery after the first time but by the bleaching cream benoquin which caused thinness of the skin and was receiving cortisone injections which also causes the skin to thin further

The brand name is Benoquin which contains monobenzone which should ONLY be used for bad cases of vitiligo (disfiguring condition characterized by patch loss of pigmentation). It is a permanent depigmenting agent used to create a uniformly totally white appearance on vitiligo skin where residual areas still have some pigmentation.

:)

WOW

WOW

WOW

Fell asleep at the wheel????? Are you kidding me?????

If true, Klein is in the same soup Murray is.

What on earth was DR doing giving him demerol injections?

Makes total sense about the thinning of the skin and blood vessels with Benoquin.

YIKES. :ohmy:

As Oxman said, worse than ANS.

[Unperson1984]

Happy Birthday Unperson?!? Have fun.

Thank you, but this was my sister's birthday and I was the hosting the dinner. The rack of lamb was great!

[legalmania]

Michael, I want to dedicate this song to you, everybody is blaming your death on one thing or another and I'm blaming it on what you would probably say, blame it on the boogie.

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Blame It on the Boogie (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/blame_it_on_the_boogie)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)Hey

[legalmania]

I don´t think those that have this lack of compassion make any sense. Compassion is necessary to fully comprehend MJ´s situation, figure out why he died, and change so it can´t happen again.

Hi feelings, I see that you are from Berlin, welcome. You may find some americans, very difficult to deal with even when it comes to death. You have two choices either fight with them or ignore them. Compassion is a word some don't understand. You have a good point and just remember your maturity is above many. Or do what I do play music.

[legalmania]

Good Morning everyone, this is a song that Diana Ross sang in Lady sings the blues and it was a song meant for people struggling with addiction. This is for Michael and all the other people that have a daily struggle with addiction.

----------------
Now playing: Diana Ross - Good Morning Heartache (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/diana_ross/track/good_morning_heartache)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[legalmania]

Hi Legal, I don't think this one pertains to Michael. Billie Holiday was an entirely different case. Michaels' scalp burns introduced him to pain killers. I think BH chose drugs as a way of life period. I may be wrong and this is just MOO.

Hi Patty, I didn't even think anybody was still up, believe it or not Michael and Billie had a lot in common, Michael did suffer from a lot of physical pain not only the pain on his scalp but the pain from dancing all those years, but they both suffered from emotional pain, Billie had a pain inside,that we could never understand and she was very insecure and suffered from stage fright, and they both died way to young Billie was 44 and Michael 50.

[legalmania]

Goodnight all! Talk tomorrow.:rose::beer: Long Live the King of Pops Music

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Man in the Mirror (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/man_in_the_mirror)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[flipflop]

Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived

http://www.tmz.com/


Wow, another story we are hearing resurface. But I am like others on here who believe that he was dead awhile before the paramedics arrived.

[crazymama]

Hi Daniel Greene,
Your 100% sure of the reason MJ was using Diprivan. Thats
really sure. Myself I have no idea. I never heard of this kind
of drug abuse before. I was just looking for reasons for someone
to take it. To take it to sleep to me is beyond the pale. To me
you would have to be very deep in addiction to do this. Just because he told people it was to sleep, does not make it true. He was an addict, they say most anything to acquire their drugs. And yeah I feel bad saying MJ was a addict. That's why I was thinking maybe he was taking the Diprivan, for Rapid Detox. I guess I was wanting to think he was fighting to get clean with the Diprivan and not to abuse it as a sleeping aid.
His family are saying he was an addict and was actively using months before his death and they tried to intervene, but were shut out.
How could he have passed a five hour medical exam from a
insurance company for the tour? And he had another coming up.
I find it difficult to believe that you could use Diprivan for sleep
repeatedly night after and not have your thought processes messed up. These are all my opinions.

[who_is_it]

Just found that sad quote:

"Despite the resurgence in his popularity, he complained of feeling alone -- almost abandoned. He was 23.

When I asked why he didn't live on his own like his brothers, rather than at his parents' house, he said, "Oh, no, I think I'd die on my own. I'd be so lonely. Even at home, I'm lonely. I sit in my room and sometimes cry. It is so hard to make friends, and there are some things you can't talk to your parents or family about. I sometimes walk around the neighborhood at night, just hoping to find someone to talk to. But I just end up coming home."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-me-jackson-hilburn27-2009jun27,0,4897003.story

[who_is_it]

Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived

http://www.tmz.com/

It's NO NEW story at all....

The content equals the INITIAL NEWS by TMZ on Michael's death on 06 / 26:

"A source tells us Jackson was dead when paramedics arrived. A cardiologist at UCLA tells TMZ Jackson died of cardiac arrest."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/

I've always believed in the truth of this first, spontaneous story -- told BEFORE any lawyers were contacted.

[daniel green]

Hi Legal, I don't think this one pertains to Michael. Billie Holiday was an entirely different case. Michaels' scalp burns introduced him to pain kilers. I think BH chose drugs as a way of life period. I may be wrong and this is just MOO.

Nobody choodes drugs as a way of life. It's a disease.

There are millions and millions of ppl worldwide who are given the same kind/amount/duration pain meds that MJ had for the scalp burn and are not addicted.

[daniel green]

Hi Daniel Greene,
Your 100% sure of the reason MJ was using Diprivan. Thats
really sure. Myself I have no idea. I never heard of this kind
of drug abuse before. I was just looking for reasons for someone
to take it. snipped.

AI'd never heard of it either. And I don't think he was getting a high outta of it, as one's asleep within seconds. But I think it's--as we've read on countless links about diprivan--a way to ck out completely. Go to sleep. Be out of hours.

[Zenyatta]

Here's an Anesthesiologist who states his opinion that Diprivan differs from other sedation agents with regard to "high" it can produce, and also warns of the danger.

Propofol: Dancing with a "White Rabbit"
By C.F. Ward, MD, Spring 2008

http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf

//snip//
As someone who initially was trained with thiopental (Pentothal) as the induction agent of choice, propofol represented a significant change in my practice. I even remember my first experience using propofol: a young woman who was emerging from a MAC anesthesia looked at me as though I were a masked Brad Pitt and told me that she felt simply wonderful. This bore no resemblance to my experience with other sedation agents, and I felt then that this might become an issue of concern for propofol. A feeling of euphoria with no residual “hangover” might suggest propofol is a near perfect mood-altering drug, but it is one that possesses a very thin window separating the dreamy state from the nonresponsive. The first case report of which I am aware that reported addiction to propofol appeared in 1992 and assured me that I was not the only anesthesiologist to notice this potential application of propofol. Subsequently, research published in 2004 noted that sleep deprivation, a reality of many of our lives, was to some extent erased during propofol anesthesia. This paper even generated an editorial, the title of which needs little explanation: “Rested and Refreshed after Anesthesia?”
//end//

I'm not convinced that MJ's use of this drug to relieve sleep deprivation didn't eventually lead to a psychological dependence on the drug's other effects.

IMO

[crazymama]

Regarding the Nurse Lee-
Lee said at one point, she spent the night with Jackson to monitor him while he slept. She said she gave him herbal remedies and stayed in a corner chair in his vast bedroom....
After running blood tests, she devised protein shakes for him and gave him an intravenous vitamin and mineral mixture - known as a 'Myers cocktail,' after Dr. John Myers - which Lee said she uses routinely in her practice.
dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1196712/Michael-Jackson-begged-deadly-drug-Diprivan-Propofol-cure-chronic-insomnia-nurse-reveals.html
Regarding Myers cocktail use-
Narcotic Withdrawal - A 35-year old man addicted to morphine was going through early stages of withdrawal, showing diaphoresis and extreme agitation. Halfway through the injection he was able to sit still, and by the end of the injection his withdrawal symptoms had alleviated. After four consecutive days of Myers’ injections he was able to continue his withdrawal period uneventfully.
springseternal.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?op=SEInjectableStory&CheckKey=GnQAnfuuar

Just keeping an open mind.

[Zenyatta]

Hi Daniel Greene,
Your 100% sure of the reason MJ was using Diprivan. Thats
really sure. Myself I have no idea. I never heard of this kind
of drug abuse before. I was just looking for reasons for someone
to take it. To take it to sleep to me is beyond the pale. To me
you would have to be very deep in addiction to do this. Just because he told people it was to sleep, does not make it true. He was an addict, they say most anything to acquire their drugs. And yeah I feel bad saying MJ was a addict. That's why I was thinking maybe he was taking the Diprivan, for Rapid Detox. I guess I was wanting to think he was fighting to get clean with the Diprivan and not to abuse it as a sleeping aid.
His family are saying he was an addict and was actively using months before his death and they tried to intervene, but were shut out.
How could he have passed a five hour medical exam from a
insurance company for the tour? And he had another coming up.
I find it difficult to believe that you could use Diprivan for sleep
repeatedly night after and not have your thought processes messed up. These are all my opinions.

Good morning, CrazyMama:

I'd never heard of Diprivan either. I think knowledge of its potential for addiction and use/abuse was restricted to medical circles, mainly anesthesiologists, because they are the ones with access to it and knowledge of its unique characteristics.

We may never know whether Michael's supposed use of Diprivan for sleep had developed into a dependence on its other effects, or exactly why Michael used it.

Here's something I posted in the links thread which may be of interest to you:

Diprivan/Propofol

- can be highly addictive

- many who become addicted start out by using Diprivan to relieve sleep deprivation

- can be self administered, with some addicts injecting themselves 50-70 times per day

- can produce a state of oblivion -- "completely blotto," says one expert -- that takes away all anxiety and fear

- can produce euphoric sensations, disinhibition, sexual hallucinations. One Doctor reports that it differs from other sedation agents in this sense, quote "a feeling of euphoria with no residual 'hangover' may suggest propofol is a near perfect mood-altering drug, but it is one that possesses a very thin window separating the dreamy state from the nonresponsive."

- is so lethal and the "dosage window" so narrow that addiction can likely lead to death, with one report stating that 28% of medical personnel who tried Diprivan even once died

- there were 43 reported deaths linked to Propofol in 2008, up from an average of 22 deaths per year the previous decade

- may be easier to steal from hospital settings than other narcotics (where every milligram of use is accounted for, unlike Propofol)


Links:

Propofol Abuse Growing Problem for Anesthesiologists

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/in...rticle_id=7579

Death related to recreational abuse of Propofol at therapeutic dose rangehttp://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/97/2/268

Propofol Dependency in a Layperson
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiolo...&type=fulltext

How to Understand the Dangers of Diprivan (Propofol) Abuse
http://www.howcast.com/guides/3613-H...Propofol-Abuse

Propofol: Dancing with a "White Rabbit"
http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf

Propofol Sedative puts focus on prescription drug abuse
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_633011.html

Abuse of Diprivan a growing problem(Includes statements from Thane Flora, a recovering Diprivan addict who was Michael's former nurse)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5186904.shtml

Spotlight on Diprivan and Propofol Addiction/The Farley Center
http://www.farleycenter.com/resource...ofol-addiction

Michael Jackson Death: Common anesthetic Propofol in spotlight
http://www.farleycenter.com/resource...ofol-addiction

We can speculate all day about why Michael used Diprivan, but I don't think anyone can argue that it's not an extremely dangerous drug, especially when used inappropriately.

Nice to see you, CrazyMama, have a nice day.

[daniel green]

Here's an Anesthesiologist who states his opinion that Diprivan differs from other sedation agents with regard to "high" it can produce, and also warns of the danger.

Propofol: Dancing with a "White Rabbit"
By C.F. Ward, MD, Spring 2008

http://www.csahq.org/pdf/bulletin/propofol_57_2.pdf snipped



WOW, many thanks!!!!!!!!

The best piece posted re diprivan to date!
I tend to think that most practicing anesthesiologists skim over educational pieces about drug diversion and addiction the way the general citizenry ignore descriptions of tax-evasion techniques. These subjects have in common two primary qualities: few people seriously engage in either one, and the transgressions do not seem to have a victim with whom to identify easily. Let me suggest, if I may, that the second notion is exceptionally flawed and that this subject requires more awareness than it usually receives. In particular, I would like to call attention to the abuse of propofol that is either actually
increasing in frequency or at least is being reported in greater numbers of late.


A footnote: Physicians and nurses without anesthesia training or experience currently are using propofol for patient sedation, and this problem has not, to my knowledge, been reported from these sources, although a recent review from France hints that might change.

And man oh man if this is not right down prescient, isn't it, in 2008?

[Zenyatta]

Regarding the Nurse Lee-
Lee said at one point, she spent the night with Jackson to monitor him while he slept. She said she gave him herbal remedies and stayed in a corner chair in his vast bedroom....
After running blood tests, she devised protein shakes for him and gave him an intravenous vitamin and mineral mixture - known as a 'Myers cocktail,' after Dr. John Myers - which Lee said she uses routinely in her practice.
dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1196712/Michael-Jackson-begged-deadly-drug-Diprivan-Propofol-cure-chronic-insomnia-nurse-reveals.html
Regarding Myers cocktail use-
Narcotic Withdrawal - A 35-year old man addicted to morphine was going through early stages of withdrawal, showing diaphoresis and extreme agitation. Halfway through the injection he was able to sit still, and by the end of the injection his withdrawal symptoms had alleviated. After four consecutive days of Myers’ injections he was able to continue his withdrawal period uneventfully.
springseternal.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?op=SEInjectableStory&CheckKey=GnQAnfuuar

Just keeping an open mind.

Thanks. It is really unfortunate that Michael didn't pay heed to Nurse Lee's admonitions about Diprivan, and stay under her care and guidance. She appears to me to be a sincere, loving person who had Michael's best interests at heart.

[daniel green]

Good morning, CrazyMama:

snippe
Propofol Dependency in a Layperson
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiolo...&type=fulltext

.

Euphoria, sexual hallucinations and disinhibition have been described on recovery of propofol anaesthesia.1 2 These effects could explain the recreational use of the drug. Moreover, several experimental studies strongly suggest the potential for abuse and dependence on propofol,3–5 and few cases of abuse and dependency have been described, mostly in medical professionals. As propofol is generally not recognized as a substance of abuse, and because of its safe profile, it is important to remember that rare adverse reactions of propofol could produce death in a context of abuse, even at therapeutic dose range, in the absence of ventilatory and medical assistance.

Aha! So the euphoria, sexual hallucinations and disinhibition are on RECOVERY from the anesthetic's use.

Well, that makes total sense!

Thx!

[daniel green]

snipped

Propofol Sedative puts focus on prescription drug abuse
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_633011.html

.

Gil Kerlikowske, chief of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, said in an interview on CBS' "The Early Show" that more people are dying in the United States from drug overdoses than gunshot wounds.

That is horrific.

[Zenyatta]

WOW, many thanks!!!!!!!!

The best piece posted re diprivan to date!





And man oh man if this is not right down prescient, isn't it, in 2008?

You're welcome, Daniel Green. Thank you for your contributions, too.

It's not just prescient, it's downright sad, isn't it?

Please Note in my last post that deaths from Propofol have increased from an average of 22 per year in the past decade to 43 reported deaths in 2008.

[daniel green]

Jackson's suspected use of Diprivan would be unusual. The Los Angeles Times reported that bottles of the sedative were found in his home and investigators are focusing on at least five doctors who prescribed drugs to Jackson before he suffered cardiac arrest. Authorities are investigating allegations that Jackson, 50, was consuming painkillers, sedatives and antidepressants.

"(Propofol) is not a medicine that is at all dispensed as an outpatient prescription," Weber said. "I would think it would be very hard to overdose alone because once you stop, the effects go away."

ibid, from the pittsburg link.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[daniel green]

You're welcome, Daniel Green. Thank you for your contributions, too.

It's not just prescient, it's downright sad, isn't it?

Please Note in my last post that deaths from Propofol have increased from an average of 22 per year in the past decade to 43 reported deaths in 2008.

Very sad. Thankfully, a huge case will ensure that this abuse gets internationa attention.

But, sheesh, how awful. Right there in the medical literature, and this very warning from 2008.

[daniel green]

snipped

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/in...rticle_id=7579



Propofol Dependency in a Layperson
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiolo...&type=fulltext

How to Understand the Dangers of Diprivan (Propofol) Abuse
http://www.howcast.com/guides/3613-H...Propofol-Abuse



Abuse of Diprivan a growing problem(Includes statements from Thane Flora, a recovering Diprivan addict who was Michael's former nurse)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5186904.shtml

Spotlight on Diprivan and Propofol Addiction/The Farley Center
http://www.farleycenter.com/resource...ofol-addiction

Michael Jackson Death: Common anesthetic Propofol in spotlight
http://www.farleycenter.com/resource...ofol-addiction

snipped.

I couldn't get those links to open?

[crazymama]

Thanks. It is really unfortunate that Michael didn't pay heed to Nurse Lee's admonitions about Diprivan, and stay under her care and guidance. She appears to me to be a sincere, loving person who had Michael's best interests at heart.
---------
Good day Zenyatta,
Yes its true we will have to wait awhile to find out why he was
using Diprivan for sure. But none of the reasons can be good for
a person.
As far as Nurse Lee, or anyone around MJ at the end, not so sure.
Some could be covering the butts.

[LordMisRule]

Hi Daniel Greene,
Your 100% sure of the reason MJ was using Diprivan. Thats
really sure. Myself I have no idea. I never heard of this kind
of drug abuse before. I was just looking for reasons for someone
to take it. To take it to sleep to me is beyond the pale. To me
you would have to be very deep in addiction to do this. Just because he told people it was to sleep, does not make it true. He was an addict, they say most anything to acquire their drugs. And yeah I feel bad saying MJ was a addict. That's why I was thinking maybe he was taking the Diprivan, for Rapid Detox. I guess I was wanting to think he was fighting to get clean with the Diprivan and not to abuse it as a sleeping aid.
His family are saying he was an addict and was actively using months before his death and they tried to intervene, but were shut out.
How could he have passed a five hour medical exam from a
insurance company for the tour? And he had another coming up.
I find it difficult to believe that you could use Diprivan for sleep
repeatedly night after and not have your thought processes messed up. These are all my opinions.

That's the question I have - how did he pass the five hour medical exam with all the alleged drug use? Was it fixed? Did an independent doctor run the exam, or one on Michael Jackson's staff? Did they run a blood test?

[Zenyatta]

That's the question I have - how did he pass the five hour medical exam with all the alleged drug use? Was it fixed? Did an independent doctor run the exam, or one on Michael Jackson's staff? Did they run a blood test?

Good question, though others have stated that Diprivan has a very short half life and leaves the system quite quickly.

I don't know. What are your thoughts?

[Zenyatta]

I couldn't get those links to open?

Hmmm.....I'm sorry, I'm technically-challenged and not sure why they won't work or what to do. I'm hesitant to post the entire text, because I believe that may be against TOS.

I have to go out for awhile, but when I come back, I'll see if I can repost them.

Again, my sincere apologies.

[Zenyatta]

ibid, from the pittsburg link.

Jackson's suspected use of Diprivan would be unusual. The Los Angeles Times reported that bottles of the sedative were found in his home and investigators are focusing on at least five doctors who prescribed drugs to Jackson before he suffered cardiac arrest. Authorities are investigating allegations that Jackson, 50, was consuming painkillers, sedatives and antidepressants.

"(Propofol) is not a medicine that is at all dispensed as an outpatient prescription," Weber said. "I would think it would be very hard to overdose alone because once you stop, the effects go away

Interesting. Very interesting.

Michael Jackson's entire life was nothing if not unusual, no?

Weber needs to familiarize himself with Diprivan abuse and the incidence of death among anesthesiologists and nurse anesthesists who have died after experimenting with it -- probably while alone.

(IMO, but included in the links previously provided).

BBL, and I'll look at those non-working links. Any suggestions from you link experts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[daniel green]

It was an independent doctor that the insurance company hired. There are conflicting reports about the time of the physical. Some say 4 hours; some say 4 1/2 hours and some say 5 not that it makes a difference just pointing out the difference in reports:
snipped

Let's just say that the same independent docs give physicals to other entertainers who also p*** them, and shouldn't have...

[daniel green]

Michael Jackson's entire life was nothing if not unusual, no?

snipped.

You are right about that. Nothing if not unusual.

I cannot thank you enough for that White Rabbit medical lit piece. Unbelievably informative.

[Zenyatta]

Hi Zen

I honestly do not believe MJ was using this drug as others addicted to it have been using it to get short, frequent highs. I honestly believe MJ was using this drug to knock him out at night - thus the continuing monitoring required. If this euphoria experienced by others was experienced by MJ it was just a "side" benefit of going under or coming out of it. He was knocked out for hours not minutes. One thing about this diprivan is once under - there is no dreaming; no racing thoughts and amnesia upon awakening. JMO

Good morning Athena,

Nice to see you. I was just leaving to run some errands...

I tend to agree that he probably wasn't self injecting 50-70 times a day as reported in other instances.

I don't know if he was psychologically dependent on some of the other attributes of the drug.

I don't know that that even matters so much as that it was a very dangerous drug that was administered inappropriately, for the wrong reasons, by the wrong parties, and it ended up killing him.

And leaving his children without their daddy.

IMO.

[daniel green]

snipped. One thing about this diprivan is once under - there is no dreaming; no racing thoughts and amnesia upon awakening. JMO

But the euphoria and sexual hallucinations and disinhibition happens on awakening, not while going under.

[daniel green]

I tend to agree that he probably wasn't self injecting 50-70 times a day as reported in other instances.

snipped.

Well, no, of course not.

Because he was having it administerd long term via IV.

[Zenyatta]

You are right about that. Nothing if not unusual.

I cannot thank you enough for that White Rabbit medical lit piece. Unbelievably informative.

( blushing ) and you are so welcome. I'm glad I could be of help.

[who_is_it]

<snipped>

In 12 step programs addicts, no matter what their bank accounts show, all say, hello, I am so and so and I am an addict. I think that speaks directly to the misguided notion that there are different levels of addicts.

I once listened to an AA woman who spoke to about 50 non-AA people. Some of them had no idea about the disease, some them were listening with a feeling of merciful superioty. (At least this was my impression.)

The AA speaker then referred to a tragic aspect with some sort of irony. She said: We're a very exclusive club! 98% of all alcoholics don't succeed...

Loved her words...

[Eagleeye]

--------------

Have u ever heard of a cath? It shouldnt be that hard to roll up your sleeves and then just inject a small amount. jmo

Are you suggesting that this is what Dr Murray did for MJ so he could self inject himself?

http://www.thebody.com/content/art1786.html

[crazymama]

That's the question I have - how did he p*** the five hour medical exam with all the alleged drug use? Was it fixed? Did an independent doctor run the exam, or one on Michael Jackson's staff? Did they run a blood test?
------
Well I read that Nurse Lee gave him a blood test, before giving
her Myers cocktail and that the independent 5 hour medical
exam for the tour also included blood tests. And he was to face another medical test by the insurer before the tour set off. His family says he was abusing a few months before his death. Something is not right. all my opinions
Hi by the way.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

--------------

Have u ever heard of a cath? It shouldnt be that hard to roll up your sleeves and then just inject a small amount. jmo

Somehow, I just cant seem to get my head around MJ being so informed, and self sufficient to do this for himself..Why bother hiring a 208.00 an hour physician..why not just instruct one his staffers..on what to do..?? Doesnt fit at all, given MJ's propensity to have hired caretakers to do for him...

It appears from that article..it is quite likely that MJ experience a sense of wellbeing upon waking up..and seems to have replaced to some extend other drugs for this one...I also believe it was Dr. Klein that introduced this drug to him, which he likely feel in love with, sought out someone to infuse him at home to avoid any outsiders from catching on.

Just food for thought, no proof at all, just speculating..

LMS

[sunstar]

Anyone watch Geraldo tonight? Was actually flipping through the channels and stopped and recorded it. Kind of getting MJ'd out and just need to watch a good movie!!!

Dr. Stephen Goefflein, MJ's Plastic Surgeon was on. May be a repeat later. Katherine Jackson gave him permission to speak to Craig Rivera and he appeared in person so this is right out of his mouth:

1) Believes MJ died because Dr. Murray fell asleep and was not adjusting the flow of diprivan which has to be done continuously

2) Says MJ WAS receiving diprivan in Dr. Klein's office

(snipped for space)

~Geraldo At Large 7/25/09 10PM EST

Goodnight all :)

I missed Geraldo's show so thanks so much for the recap! I am not at all surprised that it's possible Dr. M "fell asleep" ~ I believe something obviously went wrong. And Dr. K. giving him diprivan also? Not really a surprise either since it seems these doctors would do anything for him. :scared: MOO

[Zenyatta]

Following Jackson's death, allegations emerged that the 50-year-old King of Pop had been consuming painkillers, sedatives and antidepressants. But Lee said she encountered a man tortured by sleep deprivation and one who expressed opposition to recreational drug use.

"He wasn't looking to get high or feel good and sedated from drugs," she said. "This was a person who was not on drugs. This was a person who was seeking help, desperately, to get some sleep, to get some rest."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529633,00.html

Sources told CNN Friday Jackson suffered from such a severe case of insomnia he traveled with a private anesthesiologist in the mid-1990s.

Dr. Neil Ratner regularly helped "take down" and "bring him back up" during the pop icon's HIStory tour, sources told CNN.

Ratner confirmed that Jackson suffered from a m***ive sleep disorder, but refused to comment on any of the other allegations.

"It's really something I don't want to talk about right now," he said outside his Woodstock, New York, home Thursday.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/michael_jackson/2009/07/03/2009-07-03_powerful_sedative_diprivan_found_in_michael_jac ksons_home.html#ixzz0MOJCAbU3


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/michael_jackson/2009/07/03/2009-07-03_powerful_sedative_diprivan_found_in_michael_jac ksons_home.html#ixzz0MOIwr1RV


Hi Athena,

Playing Devil's advocate here.

IF MJ is addicted to Diprivan, I don't think he's going to admit it to Nurse Cherilyn, or tell her that it wants it in lieu of other remedies because he enjoys the high.

Secondly, I can see why Dr. Ratner doesn't want to talk about any of it. He's not the most credible source, in my opinion:

"Crocked Doc Won't Say if he gave drugs to Jax" (from 2000)

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ay_if_he_.html

//snip//
Ratner, a 49-year-old ex-rock 'n' roll drummer and manager of Peter Frampton and Edgar Winter, has been on the stand for days, admitting he repeatedly took drugs while caring for patients during the 1980s.

In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.
Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.

Lauersen is accused of lying to insurers to make them pay for $2.2 million in infertility treatments the companies traditionally don't cover. Ratner was Lauersen's chief anesthesiologist for the past decade.

Ratner, who graduated from a medical school in Mexico and cut his ponytail two weeks before trial, said he traveled with Jackson as paid tour doctor during the African leg of the singer's 1997 world tour.
//snip//


"Jackson Doctor wanted Michael to live near him"
http://www.showbiz411.com/jackson-mi...niels-lauersen

//snip//
But little by little stories are emerging about Ratner, a doctor who was suspended from practicing medicine for three years in 2002 as the result of an insurance fraud scheme that involved New York obstetrician-gynecologist Dr. Niels Lauersen, the ex-boyfriend of songwriter/socialitie Denise Rich.
//snip//

It't too bad that MJ didn't use his resources to hire someone who was legitimate and skilled in the treatment of sleep disorders.

IMO

[daniel green]

I know what ppl around MJ said about his not using drugs before his death.

But, I will believe it when I see a negative tox screen report this week.

[daniel green]

In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.[/B]
Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.

snipped

How on this good earth is this man still practicing medicine???? :cursing:

[Zenyatta]

Somehow, I just cant seem to get my head around MJ being so informed, and self sufficient to do this for himself..Why bother hiring a 208.00 an hour physician..why not just instruct one his staffers..on what to do..?? Doesnt fit at all, given MJ's propensity to have hired caretakers to do for him...

It appears from that article..it is quite likely that MJ experience a sense of wellbeing upon waking up..and seems to have replaced to some extend other drugs for this one...I also believe it was Dr. Klein that introduced this drug to him, which he likely feel in love with, sought out someone to infuse him at home to avoid any outsiders from catching on.

Just food for thought, no proof at all, just speculating..

LMS

Good morning, Lynda:

Good questions. Did he hire Dr. Murray because he needed Dr. Murray to obtain the Diprivan for him? How did Dr. Murray obtain it? What was his source?

Did Michael trade an addiction to Demerol to one for Diprivan? Did he realize how dangerous the drug was? Or had he convinced himself so thoroughly that it relieved his "sleep deprivation" that it offset any risks?

I agree with you -- that the whole thing may have started with Klein and his use of Diprivan for skin treatments.

IMO

[Zenyatta]

How on this good earth is this man still practicing medicine???? :cursing:

I was stunned that he only received a three year suspension. I didn't read all the details of the insurance fraud scam in which he was involved, but I'm wondering if the 3 years was due to some sort of plea deal in return for his testimony (?).

Unbelievable, isn't it?

[Eagleeye]

How on this good earth is this man still practicing medicine???? :cursing:

Daniel,

All Medical Doctors practice medicine. Some just do it better than others. Practice being the operative word. :smile:

[Zenyatta]

I know what ppl around MJ said about his not using drugs before his death.

But, I will believe it when I see a negative tox screen report this week.


Ok, just a layperson's understanding, but from what I've read, one could use Diprivan, and, because of its short half life and the lack of a "hangover" effect, that person would appear to function quite normally when not under the influence, correct?

Or at least until a mistake is made and the person dies.

IMO

[disneyfreak]

Ok, just a layperson's understanding, but from what I've read, one could use Diprivan, and, because of its short half life and the lack of a "hangover" effect, that person would appear to function quite normally when not under the influence, correct?

Or at least until a mistake is made and the person dies.

IMO

Yes. This is from personal experience.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Good morning, Lynda:

Good questions. Did he hire Dr. Murray because he needed Dr. Murray to obtain the Diprivan for him? How did Dr. Murray obtain it? What was his source?

Did Michael trade an addiction to Demerol to one for Diprivan? Did he realize how dangerous the drug was? Or had he convinced himself so thoroughly that it relieved his "sleep deprivation" that it offset any risks?

I agree with you -- that the whole thing may have started with Klein and his use of Diprivan for skin treatments.

IMO

I wonder too..why Dr.M..out of State MD...hummm..if Dr. M. was transporting this drug across state lines to infuse MJ at home??..Any laws broken there?..Not sure since it isnt considered a controlled drug..but then again it would explain all the searches..looking for receipts, Online communications, MJ's medical files, or other files bu LE..Also they need to speak to Dr. M.'s office admninistrator..I am sure she knows exactly what went on in the offices of Dr. M..

I do believe that MJ convinced himself it was safe..IF he could find a Dr. to give it to him...Problem tho..he just didnt realize the MD. would need to have experience using this drug...

IF, MJ really in truly used this drug, for it's effects when waking up.It is a shame he never realized that feeling .. in the last time he lay down to get his dosing/sleep/waking up refreshed...Went to "Netherland"...and never woke up!

LMS

[Zenyatta]

Daniel,

All Medical Doctors practice medicine. Some just do it better than others. Practice being the operative word. :smile:

Yikes. You do have a point

[Zenyatta]

I wonder too..why Dr.M..out of State MD...hummm..if Dr. M. was transporting this drug across state lines to infuse MJ at home??..Any laws broken there?..Not sure since it isnt considered a controlled drug..but then again it would explain all the searches..looking for receipts, Online communications, MJ's medical files, or other files bu LE..Also they need to speak to Dr. M.'s office admninistrator..I am sure she knows exactly what went on in the offices of Dr. M..

I do believe that MJ convinced himself it was safe..IF he could find a Dr. to give it to him...Problem tho..he just didnt realize the MD. would need to have experience using this drug...

IF, MJ really in truly used this drug, for it's effects when waking up.It is a shame he never realized that feeling .. in the last time he lay down to get his dosing/sleep/waking up refreshed...Went to "Netherland"...and never woke up!

LMS

One very good point about Diprivan not being a controlled substance:

"Propofol sedative puts focus on prescription druge abuse"

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_633011.html

//snip//
The drug is not as closely monitored as narcotics, where every milligram used is accounted for, so it could be easier to steal in a hospital setting, Troianos said.
//snip//

Did Murray have multiple contacts at hospitals who were stealing it for him?

Is there a black market for these drugs that involves the manufacturers? Anyone know?

Could Murray have misrepresented himself to pharmaceutical companies? (remember all of those Fed Exes....)

Athena found a link between Murray and Klein. Could Klein have gotten it for Murray?

One of the CNN talking heads recently alleged that anyone can get any drug they want on the street if they have the right contacts. He didn't go into details.

Anyone? Anyone? Buehler?

[Zenyatta]

Yes. This is from personal experience.

Thank you, disneyfreak. Then I'd say that makes Diprivan doubly dangerous, because there's no obvious symptoms or warning signs that someone may be abusing it. IMO

[Zenyatta]

-------------

If a person goes to a doctor for a treatment of some kind and is given diprivan and then the patient likes the feeling from the drug and then in turn continues to crave it, then do u hold the doc responsible? jmo

Hi Buzzzzzzzzz,
I'd say ***igning responsibility depends on the circumstances, but you'll note that I have never said MJ was not partially responsible. IMO.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

One very good point about Diprivan not being a controlled substance:

"Propofol sedative puts focus on prescription druge abuse"

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_633011.html

//snip//
The drug is not as closely monitored as narcotics, where every milligram used is accounted for, so it could be easier to steal in a hospital setting, Troianos said.
//snip//

Did Murray have multiple contacts at hospitals who were stealing it for him?

Is there a black market for these drugs that involves the manufacturers? Anyone know?

Could Murray have misrepresented himself to pharmaceutical companies? (remember all of those Fed Exes....)

Athena found a link between Murray and Klein. Could Klein have gotten it for Murray?

One of the CNN talking heads recently alleged that anyone can get any drug they want on the street if they have the right contacts. He didn't go into details.

Anyone? Anyone? Buehler?

I just did a quick look online..and it is very accessable to order it..Yikes I found out it's din# and costs $62.26 for Diprivan 1% 20ml for 5 vials

I didnt go any further to see just what information one needs to file inorder to get this stuff shipped....I am having heart palpitations just thinking about who can order this stuff..and what they could do with it..Geesh!!

I dont this Dr. M. would have to even get it from a hospital or clinical setting..but could order it..under the credentialing as an MD..I just dont know what to make of it!!

LMS

[Zenyatta]

I just did a quick look online..and it is very accessable to order it..Yikes I found out it's din# and costs $62.26 for Diprivan 1% 20ml for 5 vials

I didnt go any further to see just what information one needs to file inorder to get this stuff shipped....I am having heart palpitations just thinking about who can order this stuff..and what they could do with it..Geesh!!

I dont this Dr. M. would have to even get it from a hospital or clinical setting..but could order it..under the credentialing as an MD..I just dont know what to make of it!!

LMS

Thank you. I'd also forgotten that it's also used in Veterinary practices.

There was one account of an addict who got it from his Veterinarian. He told the vet he used it to anesthesize his fish (I know, I know....I can provide a link if anyone wants verification).

I have read since the MJ incident that the DEA is considering making it a controlled substance. I don't know if that would have made any difference in MJ's case. IMO

O/T: Just catching up on posts I missed last night. I'm glad you're back. Just don't try anything in your garage, ok? :smile:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Wasn't it already determined that the propofol came from Teva Pharmaceuticals by the lot #s?

I didnt know that Athena....Teva is a distributor of some sort.. Maybe they are like acompany that produces "Generic " products after the Patent runs out?..I dont know as not US savy on how you all do it down there??

http://investdb.theglobeandmail.com/invest/investSQL/gx.company_prof?company_id=180136

TEVA PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRIES ADR
TEVA Pharmaceuticals USA, the business is to develop, manufacture, and market generic pharmaceuticals. Teva USA sells its products to chains, wholesalers, distributors, hospitals, managed care entities, and government agencies. The company markets a variety of dosage forms, including both extended and immediate release tablets and capsules, creams, ointments, solutions, and suspensions. Key therapeutic areas are the analgesic, anti-infective, cardiovascular, CNS, dermatological and anti-inflammatory categories.

I also did find it on the menu on other Online sites..too! If the actual vials retrieved by LE..well maybe they can track who ordered them, and where they had ben sent to....Humming..maybe thats why they went to Dr. M.'s office and storage units...??


LMS

[Eagleeye]

Thank you. I'd also forgotten that it's also used in Veterinary practices.


//snipped//

You bet it is.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/ysvms/article/PIIS1096286799800218/abstract

http://www.isrvma.org/article/57_4_2.htm

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Wasn't it already determined that the propofol came from Teva Pharmaceuticals by the lot #s?

ETA:


Our sources say Teva looked at the lot number of the vial and found some of the vials in the lot went to AmerisourceBergen -- a distributor of the drug. We're told the DEA contacted AmerisourceBergen a few days ago and asked for all sales records of Propofol over a recent two-month period.

http://www.tmz.com/tag/teva+pharmaceuticals/



AmerisourceBergen

http://www.amerisourcebergen.com/cp/1/drugco/index.jsp

http://www.amerisourcebergen.com/cp/1/markets/suppliers/index.jsp

Oh..my little "Linkmyster Friend"...TY..it does seem they are zeroing in on the "Itiniary" of those Lot#'s...hummmm interesting...

LMS:wub:

[daniel green]

Thank you. I'd also forgotten that it's also used in Veterinary practices.

snipped:

And in one of the excellent links you poste upthread, they said it is not locked or tracked in hospitals or OR's.

[Zenyatta]

And in one of the excellent links you poste upthread, they said it is not locked or tracked in hospitals or OR's.

Daniel Green,

Last week I would have shrugged my shoulders at that statement. Since reading a lot about anesthetics and the known incidence of addiction among anesthesiologists, I find this appalling and inexcusable.

Totally off topic, but here's an article you might find interesting:

"The Junkie in the O.R."

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=health&category=doctors.hospitals&conitem=d7a4dfaa4d41e010VgnVCM20000012281eac____&page=

Scary stuff. If for no other reason than this, I would think Diprivan should have already been a controlled substance.

Also evidence that someone can be addicted and highly functional at the same time.

IMO

[sunstar]

And in one of the excellent links you poste upthread, they said it is not locked or tracked in hospitals or OR's.

So that seems to mean that doctors, nurses or anyone with access to hospital supplies could just walk out the door with it? :scared: I thought hospitals would at least inventory supplies, especially medications and anesthesia. MOO

[Zenyatta]

I just looked at a site where you can order it online. Sounds like people could use it just to "decrease () nervousness and stress" without being knocked out?

This medicine has proven itself to be highly effective in aiding in the decrease of nervousness and stress. Intake of this medicine is known to bring about a peaceful and relaxed state and in some cases it might even lead to a temporary lack of consciousness. Such a temporary lack of consciousness is sometimes necessary in order for the patient to undergo certain operations or some diagnosis examinations that his personal physician has to carry out.



http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s3445-s-DIPRIVAN.aspx

"in some cases might even lead to a temporary lack of consciousness"?

I'd say that's the understatement of the year. :angry:

[sunstar]

-------------
or maybe someone with a famous superstar name could have ordered it. Why ***ume it was Dr. M.? jmo

Not intending to go o/t, but why is it today I'm reading every word with a certain three letters in it has *** instead? I hadn't noticed this before and some times it's getting confusing. :confused:

[Zenyatta]

Not intending to go o/t, but why is it today I'm reading every word with a certain three letters in it has *** instead? I hadn't noticed this before and some times it's getting confusing. :confused:

I guess the three letter word that starts with an "a" and refers to the hindend is a "controlled substance" here in IS land.

Noticed it earlier when someone tried to say "m***ive," and it took me awhile to figure it out too! :laugh:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

So that seems to mean that doctors, nurses or anyone with access to hospital supplies could just walk out the door with it? :scared: I thought hospitals would at least inventory supplies, especially medications and anesthesia. MOO

I am not saying that this donesnt or does happen in your hospitals down there..but up here, if any medications..especially anesthetics, analgesics, even some expensive antibiotics..can be either tracked or traced if they so chose..It is alot of work, but can be done..For example if a drug needs to be accounted for, they can look at the records of stocking that drug to a specific department, then require some answers to where and for who that drug was used for or given...patients records can be checked, and all who have access have to answer for their dispensing habits...All Drug rooms are locked to outsiders, and only those with code or key can enter and have access....so does narrow the field somewhat....Me thinks this drug will have to be signed for and documented for which patient in future..like all narcotics are now..if pulled for a patient, not given, then it is returned and documented accordingly...

It is fortunate, that they at least found Diprivan onsite of the death, so no need to prove one way or other, it was accessable to the infuser..Its one thing to find a drug in a victims system..quite another to prove who had access to it...

LMS

[Zenyatta]

So that seems to mean that doctors, nurses or anyone with access to hospital supplies could just walk out the door with it? :scared: I thought hospitals would at least inventory supplies, especially medications and anesthesia. MOO


I don't know if it's that easy, but from what I've read, narcotics that are cl***ified as controlled substances are tracked down to the milligram. Drugs that are not controlled substances are probably inventoried, but not as closely. (?)

The above article about addicted anesthesiologists talks about how Doctors can fudge how much they use for a procedure, and keep the overage.

With Diprovan, I suppose someone could say that it spoiled or was contaminated (since that happens easily) and had to be disposed of, or some such. Probably many other creative ways to secure it. IMO.

ETA: Ack!! Cl***ified is another one of those words.