Dr Murray - raid: items seized

[who_is_it]

Items Seized in Michael Jackson Case

"We now have a copy of the law enforcement document listing the items seized yesterday at Dr. Conrad Murray's medical office in Houston.

The items include 1 vial of Phentermine (weight loss drug), 1 vial of Clonazepam (a muscle relaxer), a photocopy picture of Dr. Murray, Rolodex cards, public storage receipts, bio info on Dr. Murray, emails from Stacey Howie (we do not know who that person is), and a Rolodex card with Fed Ex information."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/23/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-seized-items-houston/

... nothing spectacular imo!?

[vonna]

Items Seized in Michael Jackson Case

"We now have a copy of the law enforcement document listing the items seized yesterday at Dr. Conrad Murray's medical office in Houston.

The items include 1 vial of Phentermine (weight loss drug), 1 vial of Clonazepam (a muscle relaxer), a photocopy picture of Dr. Murray, Rolodex cards, public storage receipts, bio info on Dr. Murray, emails from Stacey Howie (we do not know who that person is), and a Rolodex card with Fed Ex information."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/23/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-seized-items-houston/

... nothing spectacular imo!?


BREAKING NEWS: Search warrant says Jackson's doctor is target of manslaughter probe, AP reports

[flipflop]

Manslaughter probe targets Jackson doctor
Police investigating Dr. Conrad Murray, who was with singer when he died


updated 4 minutes ago

Michael Jackson's personal doctor is the target of a manslaughter investigation into the singer's death.

A search warrant filed in a Houston court Thursday allowed authorities to seek evidence of whether Dr. Conrad Murray committed manslaughter.

Murray is the cardiologist who was with Jackson when he died June 25.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32113311/ns/entertainment-music/

[RayStar]

This is so sad. The doctor appears to now have some real legal problems.

[vonna]

This is so sad. The doctor appears to now have some real legal problems.

It is sad....but it appears the doctor asked for it. Time will tell.

[VC2]

on the closed thread i said i had noticed a study about diprivan and how it is closer to real sleep than most anaesthetics.

I finally found it:

These data show that a recovery process similar to that occurring during naturally occurring sleep also takes place during anesthesia and suggest that sleep and anesthesia share common regulatory mechanisms. Such interactions between sleep and anesthesia may allow anesthesiologists to better understand a potentially important source of variability in anesthetic action and raise the possibility that anesthetics may facilitate sleep in environments where sleep deprivation is common..
http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_15166561-recovery-sleep-deprivation-occurs-propofol-anesthesia.htm

[sunstar]

Items Seized in Michael Jackson Case

"We now have a copy of the law enforcement document listing the items seized yesterday at Dr. Conrad Murray's medical office in Houston.

The items include 1 vial of Phentermine (weight loss drug), 1 vial of Clonazepam (a muscle relaxer), a photocopy picture of Dr. Murray, Rolodex cards, public storage receipts, bio info on Dr. Murray, emails from Stacey Howie (we do not know who that person is), and a Rolodex card with Fed Ex information."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/23/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-seized-items-houston/

... nothing spectacular imo!?
The Fed Ex records could be important, imo. They wouldn't show what was in the packages, but could tell if Dr. Murray was having diprivan shipped to himself, then he'd have to account for where it went since he wouldn't have any use for it in his medical practice. Also getting Phentermine from outside the U.S. is illegal, I think. :shrug: MOO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The Fed Ex records could be important, imo. They wouldn't show what was in the packages, but could tell if Dr. Murray was having diprivan shipped to himself, then he'd have to account for where it went since he wouldn't have any use for it in his medical practice. Also getting Phentermine from outside the U.S. is illegal, I think. :shrug: MOO

Dr. Murray is indeed in a huge pickle legally and professionally..and I also believe he knew it back on the day MJ died...why else obtain lawyers before giving statements to LE?..why else have his lawyer go on a media spree spinning his lack of injecting narcotics or giving other controlled substance?..It makes me smile in one way because the Investigative spokespeople have NOT said one word about him..other than he is cooperating..and not a target for criminal charges...yet..raids...on offices..and other investgative procedures...The delay in releasing the Tox Results says it all!! Of course they are following up on those results..but they dont have to publicize anything.."It is an ongoing Death Investigation" afterall!!

BTW..Why should they release anything to the public..and allow anyone the ability to cover more traces of culpibilties..LOL

LMS

[daniel green]

on the closed thread i said i had noticed a study about diprivan and how it is closer to real sleep than most anaesthetics.

I finally found it:


http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_15166561-recovery-sleep-deprivation-occurs-propofol-anesthesia.htm

Thx so much, VC!!!

That seems to be a small study with rats, right?

You are a doll for taking all that time to find it. Thx again!

[daniel green]

snipped
Also getting Phentermine from outside the U.S. is illegal, I think. :shrug: MOO

I believe it is. It is a very dangerous drug.

[sunstar]

Dr. Murray is indeed in a huge pickle legally and professionally..and I also believe he knew it back on the day MJ died...why else obtain lawyers before giving statements to LE?..why else have his lawyer go on a media spree spinning his lack of injecting narcotics or giving other controlled substance?..It makes me smile in one way because the Investigative spokespeople have NOT said one word about him..other than he is cooperating..and not a target for criminal charges...yet..raids...on offices..and other investgative procedures...The delay in releasing the Tox Results says it all!! Of course they are following up on those results..but they dont have to publicize anything.."It is an ongoing Death Investigation" afterall!!

BTW..Why should they release anything to the public..and allow anyone the ability to cover more traces of culpibilties..LOL

LMS

I agree it started when MJ died ~ failure to call 911 for about 30 minutes, questions about his CPR technique and finding propofol in the house. I also agree the state doesn't have to disclose everything they've found or what the tox results are ~ until they're ready to do so. MOO

[sunstar]

I believe it is. It is a very dangerous drug.

I've heard a lot of those online "pharmacies" that sell it are actually outside the U.S. and the DEA tracks shipments and tries to close them down by interception. :scared: MOO since I don't have a link.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I've heard a lot of those online "pharmacies" that sell it are actually outside the U.S. and the DEA tracks shipments and tries to close them down by interception. :scared: MOO since I don't have a link.

Sunstar..Drug/Medication trafficking does not happen only on the streets..LOL.Online stuff is always questionable in my opinion..I would rather pay full pop for something knowing just where it comes from..People should be aware of the dangers of obtaining any drug from a source that cant be verified..Labeling things can be done by anyone with ability to create labels...!! Yikes..cut..copy..paste..print..doesnt take a rocket scientist to create a look-a-like label!!

LMS:ohmy:

[sunstar]

Sunstar..Drug/Medication trafficking does not happen only on the streets..LOL.Online stuff is always questionable in my opinion..I would rather pay full pop for something knowing just where it comes from..People should be aware of the dangers of obtaining any drug from a source that cant be verified..Labeling things can be done by anyone with ability to create labels...!! Yikes..cut..copy..paste..print..doesnt take a rocket scientist to create a look-a-like label!!

LMS:ohmy:

So true! My questions about the items seized at Dr. M's office are the apparent small quantities, like 27 Phentermine pills, 1 clonazepam tablet and why there weren't more if he was reselling or dispensing them ~ unless somebody has had time to "clean house" between MJ's death and the raid on his office. Also no mention of any propofol being found. Smells fishy, imo! :shrug: MOO

[sunstar]

I am a tad confused as to why the other thread got locked. Are we not allowed to discuss Dr Murray??

I just glanced at the old thread before I came over here but I think it's that something other than the death investigation was being discussed. MOO

[flipflop]

So true! My questions about the items seized at Dr. M's office are the apparent small quantities, like 27 Phentermine pills, 1 clonazepam tablet and why there weren't more if he was reselling or dispensing them ~ unless somebody has had time to "clean house" between MJ's death and the raid on his office. Also no mention of any propofol being found. Smells fishy, imo! :shrug: MOO


A second search warrant, also executed Wednesday, targeted a storage locker Murray rented about five miles from the north Houston clinic. Los Angeles police officers and agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration searched the 10-by-15 foot unit, said Sue Lyon, general manager of West 18th Street Self Storage.

Lyon said she didn't know what was taken, though she did notice authorities gave two itemized sheets of paper to Murray's attorneys who were present.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32113311/ns/entertainment-music/

But if they found anything there wouldn't we have heard about it?

[retiredcop]

This is so sad. The doctor appears to now have some real legal problems.

It is sad. I can imagine the doctor rues the day he ever met Mr Jackson.

in my opinion

[Zenyatta]

I am a tad confused as to why the other thread got locked. Are we not allowed to discuss Dr Murray??

Me too, but I notice the daily thread is now open after being closed all day yesterday. :confused:

[retiredcop]

Looks like it was cleaned up too! If it is open guess we can post there? Guess we all just need to remember to stay on topic !!!!! LOL

Yes, you do. lol

in my opinion

[Lyndawitha"Y]

So true! My questions about the items seized at Dr. M's office are the apparent small quantities, like 27 Phentermine pills, 1 clonazepam tablet and why there weren't more if he was reselling or dispensing them ~ unless somebody has had time to "clean house" between MJ's death and the raid on his office. Also no mention of any propofol being found. Smells fishy, imo! :shrug: MOO

You know..I am surprised that's all they found??! If a raid was ever performed on any residence..I am sure they would find all sorts of medications that could be contrued as possible contributing to whatevers.. ( not in MJ case)..however..I think it is the records..and hardrive that will prove to be more inculpating..but then again..who knows??

I also believe Dr. Kleins files will prove to be a problem too..After all Dr. Klein was reported to keep MJ's files in his car and home at one time ..dont have a handy dandy link..however..it seems lawyers keep claiming things like.."It wasnt requested??" yikes...whoops..they want that info???hummmming..yepper!!

Medical/legal issues are always under the Hippa rules.and Medical people can always claim..specifics were not asked for..but you all know..THEY KNOW..what should be Warranted/Suppeana'd..but dont say one word..especially if those records inculpate you!!

LMS

[retiredcop]

Hey no fair -- I think it was all of us!! :tongue:


It wasn't my fault you all followed me down the primrose path about diprivan on the last thread that was closed down. :tonguewag:

in my opinion

[sunstar]

But it did not say what was taken out of his storage unit the same morning MJ died ??

Oops -- another thought just occurred to me. If he was taking stuff out of his storage room the same morning MJ died -- who was monitoring MJ? :ohmy:

Yes, indeed ~ what was really going on between him finding MJ and calling 911? :mad: MOO

[sunstar]

This is available in the US. Did it say it was shipped from outside the US? :confused:

No, but it was talked about on Nancy Grace tonight about the Fed Ex shipments, and one person mentioned possible shipments from outside the U.S. I was guessing this could be true since most online pharmacies that ship Phentermine are outside the U.S. :smile: MOO

[sunstar]

You know..I am surprised that's all they found??! If a raid was ever performed on any residence..I am sure they would find all sorts of medications that could be contrued as possible contributing to whatevers.. ( not in MJ case)..however..I think it is the records..and hardrive that will prove to be more inculpating..but then again..who knows??

I also believe Dr. Kleins files will prove to be a problem too..After all Dr. Klein was reported to keep MJ's files in his car and home at one time ..dont have a handy dandy link..however..it seems lawyers keep claiming things like.."It wasnt requested??" yikes...whoops..they want that info???hummmming..yepper!!

Medical/legal issues are always under the Hippa rules.and Medical people can always claim..specifics were not asked for..but you all know..THEY KNOW..what should be Warranted/Suppeana'd..but dont say one word..especially if those records inculpate you!!

LMS

I agree ~ and I believe the computer hard drive could hold a lot of valuable information. I hope! MOO

[VC2]

Thx so much, VC!!!

That seems to be a small study with rats, right?

You are a doll for taking all that time to find it. Thx again!

Yes it was but i first found it in the farley information that had been posted, then googled for the study itself. Once i found it, seems there are a few that have to do with the sleep issue and how it is better than others for sleep recovery and also that for short surgeries its ideal because there is no grogginess when used alone without a sedative sedative. (i really get annoyed at the media saying powerful sedative when that is not what any anaesthetic is called normally, totally misleading on purpose imo).

Obviously these are all things to take into account when used IN A HOSPITAL as an anaesthetic with rescue equipment, in no way are they discussing its use as a sleep therapy just how it aids sleep recovery when that might be a factor for a patient -e.g. medically induced coma in icu for a few days.

The thing is, if MJ found himself refreshed and feeling better after he had been given it in surgeries it makes more sense now why. It also explains why as a layman with the money he might have thought it was perfect for his severe insomnia when he did not want to be under strong narcotics because he had to put on a show or rehearse etc. I really believe that in his mind it was only to sleep. To many other options he had at hand without fuss or muss or anyones involvement (as in administering) to give him a nice high with pain killers if that was what he was after.

[flipflop]

OK - the reason I asked is because I did notice this drug is shipped online out of Idaho.

http://phentraminecenter.com/?a=gk_04&OVRAW=Phentermine&OVKEY=phentermine&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=20114163521&OVKWID=245152051021


That isn't the same as phentermine, though is it?

from your same link. no it isn't.

Phentramine diet pill is formulated from natural ingredients. Phentramine HCL is formulated from chemical compounds. Both versions of Phentramine supplements are not prescription Phentermine. Phentramine should NOT be used as a substitute for proper diet or exercise. Product should be taken as part of a healthy lifestyle consisting a sensible diet and exercise. Be aware that individual results may vary. The experience of the customers who have submitted testimonials are unique and do not guarantee or predict any outcome. As with any other dietary supplement, Phentramine may not work for everyone. Please consult with your physician before ordering & using. Due to constant product improvement, bottle size, shape, color, and other specifications may change from time to time and the bottle you receive may not match the image on the site.

[flipflop]

I had a couple of windows opened and copied the wrong link. This is the one and it is in Idaho. I had looked up the 208 area code and that's why I had my windows mixed up. Duh :blushing: Under brand name: Fastin

http://www.phentermineoriginal.com/

thats ok. :smile:

[crazymama]

Dr. Murray said he never gave MJ oxy or Demerol,
painkillers. Seems if you take painkillers and go under
Diprivan it could cause issues. He's hoping thats his saving
grace, from murder charge to manslaughter, maybe.
link-
What can go wrong with Diprivan, most commonly, is that a person can stop breathing or have a profound drop in blood pressure. This would be particularly likely if the dose were too high for that particular person, which could be the result of their having other drugs, particularly narcotics or tranquilizers, in their system. If these facts are known they can be taken into consideration in planning the dose and the problems can be avoided. If someone is secretive about their drug abuse behavior, the sedative effects of the drugs can be additive to those of Diprivan causing rapid and profound depression of critical bodily functions.
74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:I9S2-cQOoisJ:www.everydayhealth.com/blog/zimney-health

Also MJ was to have another physical exam by the AEG insurers before the concerts began. He might have passed the first one, but no way could he pass the second, without fudging, I'd say. AEG promoters look suspicious to, I think.

[VC2]

It is sad. I can imagine the doctor rues the day he ever met Mr Jackson.

in my opinion

i am sure he does but i think MJ has more reason to rue the day he met the doctor. His care was so substandard from giving cpr one handed to it looks like administering diprivan with no rescue equipment, not even a defibrillator - which for a cardiologist is really shocking.

imo

[retiredcop]

i am sure he does but i think MJ has more reason to rue the day he met the doctor. His care was so substandard from giving cpr one handed to it looks like administering diprivan with no rescue equipment, not even a defibrillator - which for a cardiologist is really shocking.

imo

I wish I was as certain as you as to what occurred in that room. Innocent until proven guilty and all that stuff.:wink:

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

I've never heard a member of law enforcement say that. Maybe its what they are thinking as they are typing out a warrant request, and claiming probable cause exists.

hmm. :wink:

Hahahaha "claiming"? More like typing up a warrant with the probable cause that exists and knowing the jury has the last word.:wink:

in my opinion of course and always

[Mamie]

But it did not say what was taken out of his storage unit the same morning MJ died ??

Oops -- another thought just occurred to me. If he was taking stuff out of his storage room the same morning MJ died -- who was monitoring MJ? :ohmy:


Too many questions with this doctor! Right off the bat, I questioned the time they waited-----no phone my aching bahind----and then the giving of the CPR the way he did it----nobody gives it like that! Now hearing that the car LE confisgated was registered in his sister's name? Can't the good doctor even have a car in his own name?

And we heard, at first, some report (don't remember what news station had it) about the garage being washed down. Was that ever checked out to be true, and if so, do we know why the wash down?

[February]

Excuse me if someone has already commented on this but.. did you see the MSN home page yesterday? It said Dr. Murray had a body guard 24/7, he couldn't work at his practice, and he was being continually harrassed.

[retiredcop]

Too many questions with this doctor! Right off the bat, I questioned the time they waited-----no phone my aching bahind----and then the giving of the CPR the way he did it----nobody gives it like that! Now hearing that the car LE confisgated was registered in his sister's name? Can't the good doctor even have a car in his own name?

And we heard, at first, some report (don't remember what news station had it) about the garage being washed down. Was that ever checked out to be true, and if so, do we know why the wash down?

You're so right. Not having a car registered in his own name is really suspicious. :rolleyes:

my own opinion of course

[retiredcop]

Believe it or not, 30 minutes isn't that long. People freak, run around looking for the phone that is the same place as always and can't find it, screaming, panicking, shaking, not able to push 911 on the phone, dropping the phone, in shock, forget or don't know anything about CPR, run to the neighbors for help even though they have a phone ect ect ect.

PS chest compressions are not done on a beating heart. Mr Jackson had a faint heartbeat. Compressions would stop it. I think he was mostly getting breaths. When in the 30 minuets did the heart actually stop? Maybe no one was there to help move him to the floor. So the best that could be done was done. This was not a murder and the 30 minuets it took will not prove a murder either.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

I've heard a lot of those online "pharmacies" that sell it are actually outside the U.S. and the DEA tracks shipments and tries to close them down by interception. :scared: MOO since I don't have a link.

Yeah.

And they can track all the pkgs to MJ as well.

Has Murray gotten a criminal lawyer or two yet?

[daniel green]

snipped
Oops -- another thought just occurred to me. If he was taking stuff out of his storage room the same morning MJ died -- who was monitoring MJ? :ohmy:

Now, there's a good question.

[daniel green]

OK - the reason I asked is because I did notice this drug is shipped online out of Idaho.

http://phentraminecenter.com/?a=gk_04&OVRAW=Phentermine&OVKEY=phentermine&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=20114163521&OVKWID=245152051021

Man oh man if they don't need an editor. :blushing:

Who would order anything from anyone who would advertise, from the link:

The Leading Diet Pill is even more cheaper now.

[daniel green]

I had a couple of windows opened and copied the wrong link. This is the one and it is in Idaho. I had looked up the 208 area code and that's why I had my windows mixed up. Duh :blushing: Under brand name: Fastin

http://www.phentermineoriginal.com/

And here's another:

http://phentermine.org/shipping.htm (this one has FedEx shipping)

From the second link:

Looking for Phentermine or Adipex ? Not online - It is illegal to buy. Our Phentermin™37.5 needs no prescription and is legal to order online.

[daniel green]

I've never heard a member of law enforcement say that. Maybe its what they are thinking as they are typing out a warrant request, and claiming probable cause exists.

hmm. :wink:

Me, either. Never. And I have worked with law enforcement my entire adult life.

You have to have probable cause to get a warrant, of course. And even Murray's own lawyer said it was probable cause of manslaughter.

[February]

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Do you think before you post. In 30 minutes, not minuets a person is dead. A minuete is a social dance of French origin for two persons. I am now wondering if you are of an age to know the difference.

LOL Well spoken ! I Totally Agree!!!!!!!!!

[legalmania]

From the second link:

A lot of these on line pharmacies won't ship certain class drugs to the U.S. even though they say all 50 states they will only ship the non-narcardic drugs. If you find one that does, it's expensive they charge a lot for the process of the prescription, plus the medications.

[legalmania]

I just stopped in to dedicate a song to Michael to let him know we miss him. I'm gonna do something a little different I'm going to play a song by Diana Ross for Michael, I know how much he loved her..:rose::seeya:

----------------
Now playing: Diana Ross - Missing You (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/diana_ross/track/missing_you)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[daniel green]

Law enforcement sources tell us they are finding a tangled web of aliases that doctors used to prescribe drugs for Michael Jackson. As we reported Jackson used a variety of aliases to score drugs, including Omar Arnold, Michael Armstrong, Jack London and Peter Midani. We're told Jackson particularly favored the name Omar Arnold.Here's how crazy it got: The L.A. County Coroner's office took Jackson's medical records from Dr. Arnold Klein last week. Law enforcement sources tell us, Klein used the name Omar Arnold on some of the files. We're told inside those files, the doctor refers to Jackson by his real name. In several cases where Dr. Klein treated Jackson under the name Omar Arnold, we're told he sent the singer to the Spalding Pain Medical Clinic in Beverly Hills, where he performed procedures on Jackson, who was given general anesthesia. But the files at Spalding referred to Jackson by an alias other than Omar Arnold. Our sources say the doctor who runs the surgery center made it easy on the Coroner and voluntarily handed over the files in question. Bottom line -- it's not that easy to track Jackson's treatment because of the phony names.



http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/michael-jackson-alias-doctor-arnold-klein-la-county-coroner-omar-arnold-drugs/

[daniel green]

Law enforcement sources tell us the L.A. County Coroner is scheduled to release the autopsy results in Michael Jackson's death next week, and the cause of death will "almost certainly" be homicide -- death at the hands of another. We're told the Coroner himself will make the call mid-week, after he gets the final toxicology report from an outside consultant. But based on the draft report as well as what has become "clear evidence," causes other than homicide -- natural, accidental, accidental overdose, and suicide -- have been ruled out. We've already reported that for weeks, the LAPD has treated Jackson's death as a homicide. They have served multiple criminal search warrants -- most recently at Dr. Conrad Murray's Houston medical office. Dr. Murray is actively being investigated as the person who may have administered the powerful anesthesia Propofol to Jackson the day he died. We're told both the Coroner and LAPD have significant evidence that Propofol caused Jackson's heart to stop.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/michael-jackson-death-coroner-autopsy-results-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-criminal-homicide-propofol/

[February]

I just stopped in to dedicate a song to Michael to let him know we miss him. I'm gonna do something a little different I'm going to play a song by Diana Ross for Michael, I know how much he loved her..:rose::seeya:

----------------
Now playing: Diana Ross - Missing You (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/diana_ross/track/missing_you)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)


Thanks, legal. I remember that song quite well.
How apropos.

[aproudmom]

Is this were we are now..heck it is so hard to keep up with all the threads..anyone up? lol..

[daniel green]

Believe it or not, 30 minutes isn't that long. People freak, run around looking for the phone that is the same place as always and can't find it, screaming, panicking, shaking, not able to push 911 on the phone, dropping the phone, in shock, forget or don't know anything about CPR, run to the neighbors for help even though they have a phone ect ect ect.

snipped.

in my opinion

30 mins is an eternity in this situation. If this cardiologist was panicking, screming, shaking, unable to dial a phone, dropping the phone, etc, he is hopeless and has no business being a cardiologist.

[aproudmom]

Believe it or not, 30 minutes isn't that long. People freak, run around looking for the phone that is the same place as always and can't find it, screaming, panicking, shaking, not able to push 911 on the phone, dropping the phone, in shock, forget or don't know anything about CPR, run to the neighbors for help even though they have a phone ect ect ect.

PS chest compressions are not done on a beating heart. Mr Jackson had a faint heartbeat. Compressions would stop it. I think he was mostly getting breaths. When in the 30 minuets did the heart actually stop? Maybe no one was there to help move him to the floor. So the best that could be done was done. This was not a murder and the 30 minuets it took will not prove a murder either.

in my opinion

I am sorry I disagree...but that is JMO..plus there was someone in that home that could have called ASAP the chef I am sure he had more than 1 bodyguard and if my doctor did not have the straight to pull me to the floor he sure would not be on my payroll..30 minutes is life and death and doctors are trained to know what to do and to do it fast has it even been proven other than his lawyer that there was a faint pulse I have also heard the EMT's knew he was already dead when they arrived so I do feel there was wasted time would it save him I do not think so but that is one thing we may never know..I do not think this was murder but for sure it is manslaughter IMO

[aproudmom]

At 2:00 am my time and there is still a voice of reason awake. Refreshing to say the least. Yes Daniel you know me. I will pm you.

well thanks alot..lol..I am very refreshing..:tonguewag:

[aproudmom]

Legal, just go to your local farm store and you can get most any medication you need without a perscription. 100 cc's of Penicillin G with b/complex is only ten bucks. Price it at Walgreens and see the difference. It is cheaper to treat our animals than it is to treat ourselves. Same product different label.

yep very true and I have even got meds for my Rotty at CVS before but we don't have any farm stores around here so the vets usually have the meds

[VC2]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/michael-jackson-death-coroner-autopsy-results-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-criminal-homicide-propofol/

:thumbup: wow..thanks DG

The doctor is within a hairs breadth of arrest

[aproudmom]

So true! My questions about the items seized at Dr. M's office are the apparent small quantities, like 27 Phentermine pills, 1 clonazepam tablet and why there weren't more if he was reselling or dispensing them ~ unless somebody has had time to "clean house" between MJ's death and the raid on his office. Also no mention of any propofol being found. Smells fishy, imo! :shrug: MOO

My question is why did they find Clonazepam? that is controlled Klonopin is the non generic name..here no doctor can have any controlled substance in their office maybe it is just here but they can not have anything controlled in case someone broke in..maybe it is just here..they do get tons of samples but nothing controlled..and that drug is used for Sezuires,Anxiety

Clonazepam is used to control certain types of seizures in the treatment of epilepsy and for the treatment of panic disorders

[February]

:thumbup: wow..thanks DG

The doctor is within a hairs breadth of arrest



I hope there will be a grand jury hearing.
The doc is shaky. He didn't even identify himself during the 911 call. :ohmy:

[aproudmom]

:ohmy:I am shocked all the stuff you can get on line..wow..I know when I was married his insurance we could get a 90 day supply but they stopped that many years ago..well for controlled substances anyway..still had to send in the prescription though so it would not be hard for any doctor to write a prescription for someone in another name and it be mailed to them...:confused:

[VC2]

i started a new thread for the day, with the news and title that MJ's death is almost certainly a homicide.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13307173#post13307173

[GentleBreeze]

Believe it or not, 30 minutes isn't that long. People freak, run around looking for the phone that is the same place as always and can't find it, screaming, panicking, shaking, not able to push 911 on the phone, dropping the phone, in shock, forget or don't know anything about CPR, run to the neighbors for help even though they have a phone ect ect ect.

PS chest compressions are not done on a beating heart. Mr Jackson had a faint heartbeat. Compressions would stop it. I think he was mostly getting breaths. When in the 30 minuets did the heart actually stop? Maybe no one was there to help move him to the floor. So the best that could be done was done. This was not a murder and the 30 minuets it took will not prove a murder either.

in my opinion

IMO, I think the ME already knows that MJ had been dead much longer than just 30 minutes.

We don't really know he had a heartbeat at all. We do know that is what Murray is trying to say.

Now lets see if it lines up with what the autopsy report uncovered.

imo

[aproudmom]

A second search warrant, also executed Wednesday, targeted a storage locker Murray rented about five miles from the north Houston clinic. Los Angeles police officers and agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration searched the 10-by-15 foot unit, said Sue Lyon, general manager of West 18th Street Self Storage.

Lyon said she didn't know what was taken, though she did notice authorities gave two itemized sheets of paper to Murray's attorneys who were present.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32113311/ns/entertainment-music/

But if they found anything there wouldn't we have heard about it?

I read someone not him was seen there the day MJ died..wonder what time and they must not have cameras or they would know I guess who was in and out of there..

[aproudmom]

IMO, I think the ME already knows that MJ had been dead much longer than just 30 minutes.

We don't really know he had a heartbeat at all. We do know that is what Murray is trying to say.

Now lets see if it lines up with what the autopsy report uncovered.

imo

that is just what I said pretty hard for a dead man to dispute it so that is just what the doctor said...

[Firehead11]

that is just what I said pretty hard for a dead man to dispute it so that is just what the doctor said...

Wasn't there a rumor floating around after the autopsy report that none of the drugs that the ER medics gave Jackson were in his system?

[sunstar]

Yeah.

And they can track all the pkgs to MJ as well.

Has Murray gotten a criminal lawyer or two yet?

Hi! I heard that his lawyer actually has a lawyer! I suspect there will be more than one shipment from Dr. M to MJ. MOO

[Scampi]

I would love to know exactly why Murray's vehicle was impounded. Has there been any release of information as to what the probable cause was to take away the car?

[R~O~S]

IMO, I think the ME already knows that MJ had been dead much longer than just 30 minutes.

We don't really know he had a heartbeat at all. We do know that is what Murray is trying to say.

Now lets see if it lines up with what the autopsy report uncovered.

imo

But why is he saying that when the youngest boy scout certified in CPR knows you don't do chest compressions on someone with a pulse, "faint" or not. A pulse means the heart is beating & compressions will cause cardiac arrest. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

I was questioning that when his statement was first made and nobody seemed to be concerned about it. I tried to get anyone with more medical knowledge than me to tell me if there was ever a time in more advanced medical treatment that you would do compressions on someone with a pulse and got no response.

FWIW, I agree with you. I think he was gone much earlier than the doctor is claiming & the ME knows a lot that hasn't been released.

[ABC]

I wish I was as certain as you as to what occurred in that room. Innocent until proven guilty and all that stuff.:wink:

in my opinion
My opinion too. I expect poor sad, sick, fragile Michael's body just wore out. All that strenious dancing after a nine year lay off could not have been good for his heart at almost 51 years old.

[GentleBreeze]

But why is he saying that when the youngest boy scout certified in CPR knows you don't do chest compressions on someone with a pulse, "faint" or not. A pulse means the heart is beating & compressions will cause cardiac arrest. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

I was questioning that when his statement was first made and nobody seemed to be concerned about it. I tried to get anyone with more medical knowledge than me to tell me if there was ever a time in more advanced medical treatment that you would do compressions on someone with a pulse and got no response.

FWIW, I agree with you. I think he was gone much earlier than the doctor is claiming & the ME knows a lot that hasn't been released.

Good Morning ROS!

From the very beginning none of the doctor's actions have made any sense. What doctor would keep trying to bring someone around after 30 minutes knowing that irreversible brain damage occurs with in at least 6 minutes and that is pushing it because the brain is no longer getting oxygen. He didn't even have a defibrillator. Who was he really trying to save? IMO, it sure wasn't MJ because after that long with no response for all practical purposes MJ was already gone.

Murray needed to have a body that was breathing on its own. Never mind that MJ would most likely be declared brain dead on arrival at the hospital. Murray's actions were nothing about what was in the best interest of his client but his CYA mode.

I not only think he did not monitor Michael as he was to do but he may have even set the drip up too fast. Maybe that is why he went back in when he did because the drip was supposed to be finishing up and then he realized he had overdosed him on diprivan.

I think the ME knows MJ was long dead before the doctor even started working on him. I think that is why they are getting SWs and raiding offices and storage units.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I would love to know exactly why Murray's vehicle was impounded. Has there been any release of information as to what the probable cause was to take away the car?

No there hasn't, Scampi.

I think they saw something through the windows of the vehicle that made them have enough probable cause to impounded his vehicle.

Be interesting since didn't the Chef say he saw Murray carrying such things as oxygen tanks out of the home in May. Wonder what they found in his trunk?:ohmy:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I don't follow you. Bodies don't breath on their own if they are brain dead. jmo

I am sorry, you are right they don't but they do if they are put on a respirator (life support) and I think Murray was hoping this would be done when he told the EMTs to keep working on him, even though they have said that when they arrived MJ was flat lined and they wanted to declare him dead right then and there.

imo

[sunstar]

My opinion too. I expect poor sad, sick, fragile Michael's body just wore out. All that strenious dancing after a nine year lay off could not have been good for his heart at almost 51 years old.

If this were the case though I think the autopsy would've shown heart damage and there wouldn't be an investigation going on now. :sad: He'd also had a physical exam in February and was working out (training). MOO

[ABC]

If this were the case though I think the autopsy would've shown heart damage and there wouldn't be an investigation going on now. :sad: He'd also had a physical exam in February and was working out (training). MOO

I did not know that the autopsy results had been released yet? Must have missed it. What did the Coroner say was the cause of death? In spite of a physical exam, he was a fifty going on fifty one year old fragile guy whose rehearshels were exerting lots of pressure on his body which I think, failed him and he just wore out. RIP

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I did not know that the autopsy results had been released yet? Must have missed it. What did the Coroner say was the cause of death? In spite of a physical exam, he was a fifty going on fifty one year old think fragile guy whose heart, I think, failed him and he just wore out.

IIRC..that the statement so far by the Coroner's Office was that there was no outward physical signs of trauma, or a s s ault..and I have to a s sume there was no inner signs visualized either..like heart attack..or blood clot..so sent tissues and fluids for outside testings..i.e. toxiciology, and microspopic examinations...

What has been discussed in the media, and on boards such as this is speculations based on reports..the finding of Diprivan, the timeline of events, the statements made by family members, friends, acquaintenances, physicians who knew, and or treated MJ, along with whoever spoke...At this point people such as us are only attempting to piece together "possibilities"..based on likelihoods, and probabilities..but in actual fact........Nothings is really decided..since no COD nor Time of Death has been pronounced by the "Powers That Be"...

That's it in a nutshell, the rest is on a month worth of board threads..full of opinions, and their various perspectives of what has been reported..whether the reports are true or not...

LMS:laugh:

[ABC]

IIRC..that the statement so far by the Coroner's Office was that there was no outward physical signs of trauma, or a s s ault..and I have to a s sume there was no inner signs visualized either..like heart attack..or blood clot..so sent tissues and fluids for outside testings..i.e. toxiciology, and microspopic examinations...

What has been discussed in the media, and on boards such as this is speculations based on reports..the finding of Diprivan, the timeline of events, the statements made by family members, friends, acquaintenances, physicians who knew, and or treated MJ, along with whoever spoke...At this point people such as us are only attempting to piece together "possibilities"..based on likelihoods, and probabilities..but in actual fact........Nothings is really decided..since no COD nor Time of Death has been pronounced by the "Powers That Be"...

That's it in a nutshell, the rest is on a month worth of board threads..full of opinions, and their various perspectives of what has been reported..whether the reports are true or not...

LMS:laugh:

Thanks for the information. Appreciate you taking the time. :thumbup:

[GentleBreeze]

I did not know that the autopsy results had been released yet? Must have missed it. What did the Coroner say was the cause of death? In spite of a physical exam, he was a fifty going on fifty one year old fragile guy whose rehearshels were exerting lots of pressure on his body which I think, failed him and he just wore out. RIP

So you think the ME is going to pick natural causes?

imo

[ABC]

So you think the ME is going to pick natural causes?

imo
I do Breeze. Michael was supporting the whole family except for Janet and LaToya plus a host of others including the Doc who was being paid $150,000 a month. Who would be dumb enough to kill the goose that laid the Golden Egg????????? Makes no sense.

[ABC]

So you think the ME is going to pick natural causes?

imo
I do Breeze. Michael was supporting the whole family except for Janet and LaToya plus a host of others including the Doc who was being paid $150,000 a month. I know that some folks are dumb enough to kill the goose that laid the Golden Egg????????? Who in Michael's life would do that?Makes no sense. Some guy gave the family 5.5 million that was Michael's that no one knew about.
What do you think???

[cutiepatootie61]

Wow! I just read that on TMZ and if that's true, then WOW! is all I can say. Those are what they call "bad facts" for a defendant.

Good morning, all.

I agree kellabeck, this compounded with the fact that it was after the lengthy interview with Dr. Murray that law enforcement retrieved a search warrant. It almost sounds as though Dr. Murray fessed everything up. Can't really deny all these facts if true, what could his defense possibly be?
I truly believe it was accidental on Murray's part. No way do I believe that he was part of the conspiracy that some believe was to eliminate MJ. MJ was Murray's ticket out of financial despair, not too mention "the chance in a lifetime" experience.
The one thing left nagging at me is the determination of time of death. I truly hope it was coincidental that Murrays employees removed files from the storage unit 3 hrs before 911 was dialed.
Seems if MJ was dead for any significant amount of time before the call was made, Murray would have "cleaned up" the room a little better.
So far most of what TMZ has reported has supported as truth from many other sources, in fact I don't think any of what they have reported has been proven false.

Can't wait to see the autospy results, such a tragedy. moo

[flipflop]

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange Signs

Posted Jul 27th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell us one of the theories they're exploring in Michael Jackson's death is that Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to the singer and then left the room, eventually to return to a dead body.

Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/

[VC2]

I agree kellabeck, this compounded with the fact that it was after the lengthy interview with Dr. Murray that law enforcement retrieved a search warrant. It almost sounds as though Dr. Murray fessed everything up. Can't really deny all these facts if true, what could his defense possibly be?
I truly believe it was accidental on Murray's part. No way do I believe that he was part of the conspiracy that some believe was to eliminate MJ. MJ was Murray's ticket out of financial despair, not too mention "the chance in a lifetime" experience.
The one thing left nagging at me is the determination of time of death. I truly hope it was coincidental that Murrays employees removed files from the storage unit 3 hrs before 911 was dialed.
Seems if MJ was dead for any significant amount of time before the call was made, Murray would have "cleaned up" the room a little better.
So far most of what TMZ has reported has supported as truth from many other sources, in fact I don't think any of what they have reported has been proven false.

Can't wait to see the autospy results, such a tragedy. moo

well i agree it was not a conspiracy to murder, but it was murder nevertheless imo simply by virtue of the fact it not only was unethical to administer this drug at home (more than unethical, unethical is writing a script for someone who doesn't need it) but outright reckless disregard for human life because 1. he is not trained in its administration and as a physician he knew its lethality even at small doses if not closely monitored. 2. The monitoring equipment at hand was woefully inadequate and he knew it. Not only did he know it, he was able to get the proper monitoring and rescue equipment.

From the paramedics description there was not even an oxygen sensor in the room to determine his blood o2 saturation. That is something you and I can buy to have at home! just goes on your index finger. No defibrillator, no intubation equipment. What did he plan to do if something went wrong when he was "monitoring"? As a cardiologist he KNOWS that the only thing that really helps in a cardiac arrest is a defibrillator. Ok we laymen do cpr until paramedics arrive so that we can keep the blood circulating to the brain, which avoids brain damage and brain death until the heart starts again but even small airlines have personal defibrillators on them. In fact imo its worse that he was a cardiologist that he did not.

He didn't even have an ambu bag apparently!!!!! A mask is useless if someone can't breathe in.

IOW there were so many things that rise to beyond negligence and imo he knew would kill MJ if anything went wrong, that it constitutes murder2 and a reckless disregard for human life. A very good argument could be made on that alone but add the rest to it and what his knowledge was then its a no brainer imo.

Absolutely he had to tell LE some of this, i mean there has to be a reason for the IV given, and Murray is not so stupid that he doesn't realize an autopsy will bring up these questions. Whether he wanted to tell them about the diprivan itself is another thing but he was better off praying it was not the cod and mj had a heart attack than lying about it which he probably realized by the time he met LE since he had not been able to get back into the house and his car was towed.

Appear cooperative and act as if this is nothing unusual i guess was his decision. What his massive ego probably did not tell him was that not only his colleagues but LE would find out he was so far from good practice that it truly was beyond just malpractice.

If it had been during the 93 tour with Ratner, it would be a different case. Ratner was a board certified anaesthesiologist who brough along his own portable clinic. The reason for the anaesthetic was off label but he could argue it was to wean MJ off demerol (which it has been used for in hospital), and whatever we thought or his medical board thought about the use of it, at a minimum he was qualified to administer it and had everything an ambulatory surgery clinic would have at hand if something went wrong. Still incredibly unethical but a vast difference from how Murray went about it and that difference is what makes it rise to a homicide

IMO

[Firehead11]

I agree kellabeck, this compounded with the fact that it was after the lengthy interview with Dr. Murray that law enforcement retrieved a search warrant. It almost sounds as though Dr. Murray fessed everything up. Can't really deny all these facts if true, what could his defense possibly be?
I truly believe it was accidental on Murray's part. No way do I believe that he was part of the conspiracy that some believe was to eliminate MJ. MJ was Murray's ticket out of financial despair, not too mention "the chance in a lifetime" experience.
The one thing left nagging at me is the determination of time of death. I truly hope it was coincidental that Murrays employees removed files from the storage unit 3 hrs before 911 was dialed.
Seems if MJ was dead for any significant amount of time before the call was made, Murray would have "cleaned up" the room a little better.
So far most of what TMZ has reported has supported as truth from many other sources, in fact I don't think any of what they have reported has been proven false.

Can't wait to see the autospy results, such a tragedy. moo

Here is what worries me about Jackson's death now that the latest rumor has surfaced. Why did it take one month for this 5.5 millon dollars to surface after Jackson's death? I call it a rumor because one side states that they recovered it, the other states that they returned the 5.5 million in CASH to the estate. Personally his story (Tohme's) doesn't make a bit of sense to me

If anymore "rumors" come out, I just might be changing my mind on accidental death.

Would it be easy to set up an "accidental" death since it was well known about Jackson's PRESCRIPTION habits? Could all of this be explained as an "oops"?

Let me state this right now, I will be surprised if there are many drugs showing up in the tox report. For some reason, I do not buy that he was such an addict any longer. I have my crow pie in the freezer already if I am wrong. :wink:

[ABC]

I think you may be a tad confused as to what exactly homicide means. It doesn't always mean premeditated murder in the first degree....sometimes it's the wanton disregard for human life, the doctor knew or should have known that the "treatment" he was giving MJ could kill him and took no steps to prevent that from happening. He deviated from the standard practice. IMO

I also think you're quite young to think MJ's 50 year old body simply wore out after a few dance rehearsals. IMO

I am neither confused nor young but do have an extremely active inquiring mind. To date, there is no evidence as to the nature of the Physician's "treatment" or any indication that that "treatment" had anything to do with the death of MJ. Despite the "fifty is the new thirty mojo" touted by the Boomers, fifty is still middle age and continuing the ongoing decline of the body particularly when engaging in high physical activity such as dancing around for an unaccustomed six to eight hours a day. Contrary to popular opinion, death is not optional. Eat well, run, don't smoke and folks still die.

[tiptop]

Has anyone seen more of Michael's rehearsals? I keep seeing the same 30 second shot of him slowly moving around - slowly lifting his leg in unison with the other dancers --- saluting --- interacting with what looks like a female guitar player; moves that look fairly easy compared to his earlier years. I guess it will all be seen when the movie/videos come out.

[cutiepatootie61]

Here is what worries me about Jackson's death now that the latest rumor has surfaced. Why did it take one month for this 5.5 millon dollars to surface after Jackson's death? I call it a rumor because one side states that they recovered it, the other states that they returned the 5.5 million in CASH to the estate. Personally his story (Tohme's) doesn't make a bit of sense to me

If anymore "rumors" come out, I just might be changing my mind on accidental death.

Would it be easy to set up an "accidental" death since it was well known about Jackson's PRESCRIPTION habits? Could all of this be explained as an "oops"?

Let me state this right now, I will be surprised if there are many drugs showing up in the tox report. For some reason, I do not buy that he was such an addict any longer. I have my crow pie in the freezer already if I am wrong. :wink:

I will side with you about Tohme's story, I have wondered if this guy didn't have his own agenda all the while. I too am unclear how this mere 5.5 million suddenly was recovered or turned over in good will.
I can't imagine that Dr. Murray would willingly participate in a conspiracy to do away with MJ. I absolutely think it was an accident on his part, totally unethical and illegal from the sounds of it, no doubt he will do some prison time for his choices, but I really believe it was an error on behalf of Dr. Murray. There is no way he would allow himself to be the fall guy in this grand conspiracy to off MJ. Dr. Murray stood to gain a lot of money from his unethical decisions and had only been on payroll for about a month if that. I don't believe he has received dime one for his ahem services.
I don't know what to believe about how deep MJ's addiction was rooted. It sounds like abuse over the years, but to the point of addiction still, not sure. Will have to wait for the toxicology tests to come back, and some official proof of what his medical records indicate. I think he was a terribly lonely and isolated man who couldn't find true peace and serenity in his life. Even those who he thought were true friends, I'm sure he questioned from time to time. He never was accepted for his true self, not even by his father of all people, people knew and loved the superstar, not the man who clearly wrestled his whole life with who he really was. Truly a sad, sad case. I will bet the only ones he felt truly loved and accepted by were his children, unfortunately I think by the time they arrived in his life, his struggles had already overpowered him. moo

[Unperson1984]

Wow! I just read that on TMZ and if that's true, then WOW! is all I can say. Those are what they call "bad facts" for a defendant.

Good morning, all.

Murray isn't on staff at UCLA, nor does he have privileges there, so I doubt he was allowed to perform any medical procedure once MJ arrived in the ER.

IMHO

[ABC]

I think the evidence is there. To obtain the search warrants, there had to be probable cause. That alone is indication that Dr. Murray had something to do with MJ's death.

imo...of course.
Time will tell and hopefully within the week so this poor guy can go back it his life. To be honest, I did not sell tickets to 50 concerts, put out his rehearsal time line, etc. That would be the promoters of the show and his PR people. I agree that the 30 second spot only inforces my opinion that Michael's body was fragile, tired and worn out. To me, he looked like he could barely move and this "activity" was taking a toll on him.

[ABC]

I apologise. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I do NOT believe for a second that MJ was dancing around strenuously for 6 to 8 hours a day. IMO I hope you can provide a credible link for such a statement.

I also believe there is much evidence that Diprivan is the likely cause of death. Just the fact that it was present, causes air raid sirens to go off in my head. IMO
"Strenuously" is not a word that I used in my post.

[ABC]

Do you have a credible source for the statement, "when engaging in high physical activity such as dancing around for an unaccustomed six to eight hours a day." ?????

Sure, my own opinion and forty years experience with professional dancers (mother, who was a ballroom dancer and daughter, who has a PHD and teaches dance at the University level) so I know how much physical strength it takes to dance. I actually thought it was a well known fact that dancing takes strength and stammina. I don't think its a secret that Jackson has not preformed professionaly in a number of years. Is it????????? I don't think it a secret that he looked frail and fragile. I don't think it a secret that the promoters claimed he has been rehearsing for hours daily in prep for the concerts for the last few months.

[Firehead11]

I will side with you about Tohme's story, I have wondered if this guy didn't have his own agenda all the while. I too am unclear how this mere 5.5 million suddenly was recovered or turned over in good will.
I can't imagine that Dr. Murray would willingly participate in a conspiracy to do away with MJ. I absolutely think it was an accident on his part, totally unethical and illegal from the sounds of it, no doubt he will do some prison time for his choices, but I really believe it was an error on behalf of Dr. Murray. There is no way he would allow himself to be the fall guy in this grand conspiracy to off MJ. Dr. Murray stood to gain a lot of money from his unethical decisions and had only been on payroll for about a month if that. I don't believe he has received dime one for his ahem services.
I don't know what to believe about how deep MJ's addiction was rooted. It sounds like abuse over the years, but to the point of addiction still, not sure. Will have to wait for the toxicology tests to come back, and some official proof of what his medical records indicate. I think he was a terribly lonely and isolated man who couldn't find true peace and serenity in his life. Even those who he thought were true friends, I'm sure he questioned from time to time. He never was accepted for his true self, not even by his father of all people, people knew and loved the superstar, not the man who clearly wrestled his whole life with who he really was. Truly a sad, sad case. I will bet the only ones he felt truly loved and accepted by were his children, unfortunately I think by the time they arrived in his life, his struggles had already overpowered him. moo

Well that sure does sound like a lot of money for his services. It comes to $1,350,000.00 for 9 months based on Jackson doing 50 concerts running thru till January.

To me there is a lot that needs to be explained by the good doctor and Tohme. Did it take him a month to realize that he had 5.5 million cash doctors of Michael's? Why was Joe Jackson pushing for Tohme to be involved in the estate? Enquiring minds want to know.

[who_is_it]

I will side with you about Tohme's story, I have wondered if this guy didn't have his own agenda all the while. I too am unclear how this mere 5.5 million suddenly was recovered or turned over in good will.
I can't imagine that Dr. Murray would willingly participate in a conspiracy to do away with MJ. I absolutely think it was an accident on his part, totally unethical and illegal from the sounds of it, no doubt he will do some prison time for his choices, but I really believe it was an error on behalf of Dr. Murray. There is no way he would allow himself to be the fall guy in this grand conspiracy to off MJ. Dr. Murray stood to gain a lot of money from his unethical decisions and had only been on payroll for about a month if that. I don't believe he has received dime one for his ahem services.
I don't know what to believe about how deep MJ's addiction was rooted. It sounds like abuse over the years, but to the point of addiction still, not sure. Will have to wait for the toxicology tests to come back, and some official proof of what his medical records indicate. I think he was a terribly lonely and isolated man who couldn't find true peace and serenity in his life. Even those who he thought were true friends, I'm sure he questioned from time to time. He never was accepted for his true self, not even by his father of all people, people knew and loved the superstar, not the man who clearly wrestled his whole life with who he really was. Truly a sad, sad case. I will bet the only ones he felt truly loved and accepted by were his children, unfortunately I think by the time they arrived in his life, his struggles had already overpowered him. moo

If Dr. Murray administered I also believe Michael died accidentally.

Read this on his loneliness -- so sad:

"When I asked why he didn't live on his own like his brothers, rather than at his parents' house, he said, "Oh, no, I think I'd die on my own. I'd be so lonely. Even at home, I'm lonely. I sit in my room and sometimes cry. It is so hard to make friends, and there are some things you can't talk to your parents or family about. I sometimes walk around the neighborhood at night, just hoping to find someone to talk to. But I just end up coming home.""

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-me-jackson-hilburn27-2009jun27,0,4897003.story

I take solace in the believe he was surrounded by good people before his death -- not by all the leeches from the years before. By all I heard from the people he worked together my impression is they were nice. They also only made dignified statements after his death.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Does anyone not find this strange considering that Dr. Murray allegedly "just left the room". That bag shouild not have been EMPTY!

Lynda - where r u ???

IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag

Morning Athena...whoops Good Afternoon..It was described as an IV stand with empty IV bag...then also describing Mj with an IV in his arm..maybe the empty one was replaced by a full one..and unable to dispose of it due to hummmm CPR attemt..

I would love to see a picture of the scene, before I can really speculate on all the scenerios that created it....

The one thing that jumps out to me is the "Cool Body Temperature"...Body just dont cool that fast..in 30 minutes..I wonder what his core temp was???dont know..I wonder if there was any lavidity..settling of blood to lowest point, or eyeball cloudiness, or forget the term..water blisters on the eyeball..Anyway..I am sure if the EMT's assessed MJ..they have a knowledge base to know if he had been passed for longer than the 30 mins suggested by Dr.M.

LMS:blink:

[who_is_it]

UPDATE -- (not too interesting imo)

Dr. Murray's Storage Unit -- Files May Hold Clue

"We've learned the two women who went to a Houston storage facility the day Michael Jackson died and removed boxes had rented the facility just months earlier, in the name of their employer -- Dr. Conrad Murray.

The owners of the facility say the two women filled out a contract on April 1, 2009. They rented a unit in the name of Dr. Conrad Murray's medical practice. Dr. Murray's credit card was used to pay the rent for the unit.

The unit contained boxes, furniture and other items. The two women arrived at 9:22 AM Los Angeles time -- 3 hours before the 911 call from Jackson's home.

The women took 3 - 5 boxes though we do not know what was inside.

The facility has a surveillance camera, but it was broken that day.*"

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/dr-murrays-storage-unit-files-may-hold-clue/

* coincidence imo

[Zenyatta]

UPDATE -- (not too interesting imo)

Dr. Murray's Storage Unit -- Files May Hold Clue

"We've learned the two women who went to a Houston storage facility the day Michael Jackson died and removed boxes had rented the facility just months earlier, in the name of their employer -- Dr. Conrad Murray.

The owners of the facility say the two women filled out a contract on April 1, 2009. They rented a unit in the name of Dr. Conrad Murray's medical practice. Dr. Murray's credit card was used to pay the rent for the unit.

The unit contained boxes, furniture and other items. The two women arrived at 9:22 AM Los Angeles time -- 3 hours before the 911 call from Jackson's home.

The women took 3 - 5 boxes though we do not know what was inside.

The facility has a surveillance camera, but it was broken that day.*"

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/dr-murrays-storage-unit-files-may-hold-clue/

* coincidence imo

Thanks, who is it.

The Today Show also reported on it this morning.

Two additional pieces of information from that report:

- it was reported that the Murray's storage facility was not accessed in the month prior to the two women entering it on the day Jackson died.

- they showed the storage facility and a large sign on the side of the building advertised it as "Climate Controlled." This answers a previous poster's question about whether or not some drugs could be kept at Murray's storage facility.

IMO

ETA: It was also reported that a third interview has been scheduled between LE and Dr. Murray.

[Eagleeye]

Thanks, who is it.

The Today Show also reported on it this morning.

Two additional pieces of information from that report:

- it was reported that the Murray's storage facility was not accessed in the month prior to the two women entering it on the day Jackson died.

- they showed the storage facility and a large sign on the side of the building advertised it as "Climate Controlled." This answers a previous poster's question about whether or not some drugs could be kept at Murray's storage facility.

IMO

ETA: It was also reported that a third interview has been scheduled between LE and Dr. Murray.

Under which storage conditions Diprivan should be kept?

Diprivan should be stored in cupboard at room temperature, away from heat, moisture, and direct light. Do not store Diprivan Injections in the bathroom, near the kitchen sink, or in other damp places. Keep always Diprivan medicine out of the reach of children.

http://www.abconlinepharmacy.com/ns/customer/product2793-c-p1

[who_is_it]

Thanks, who is it.

The Today Show also reported on it this morning.

Two additional pieces of information from that report:

- it was reported that the Murray's storage facility was not accessed in the month prior to the two women entering it on the day Jackson died.

- they showed the storage facility and a large sign on the side of the building advertised it as "Climate Controlled." This answers a previous poster's question about whether or not some drugs could be kept at Murray's storage facility.

IMO

ETA: It was also reported that a third interview has been scheduled between LE and Dr. Murray.

Thanx. Strange that they didn't enter the storage facility for 2 months but exactly on the day Michael died...

[VC2]

Hang onto your hat!

I totally agree. However, I do not think he will be charged with Murder2.

HOLY CARP! we need a fainting icon here :laugh: i agree it is unlikely but i hope its a charge along with voluntary manslaughter and the jury can decide. From what we know so far it is applicable. This is not a simple case of someone getting drugs they should not have and taking to much where the majority of cod is on the user.

And you hang on to your hat too, i am not saying that MJ had no part in his cause of death even though i can understand why he believed it was safe with murray there. ESPECIALLY after his 93 experience and the many times he was put under for minor surgeries let alone major. Doesn't mean that he is cleared of all responsibilty though, but to me its like a person driving to fast in an old car that he bought believing the salesperson that it had new brakes when they were actually 30 years old and failed killing him. Yes he would be alive if he did not speed but his death was assured by the people who sold him the car since his belief in good brakes were part of his decision making process on whether he could slow down in time.

[Firehead11]

Time will tell and hopefully within the week so this poor guy can go back it his life. To be honest, I did not sell tickets to 50 concerts, put out his rehearsal time line, etc. That would be the promoters of the show and his PR people. I agree that the 30 second spot only inforces my opinion that Michael's body was fragile, tired and worn out. To me, he looked like he could barely move and this "activity" was taking a toll on him.

Wow!

I saw something entirely different that you in that 30 second spot. IIRC, it almost looks the same as the video of the same song done a few years back.

He looked good to me. It will be interesting to see the remaining 100 minues, won't it?

[Eagleeye]

HOLY CARP! we need a fainting icon here :laugh: i agree it is unlikely but i hope its a charge along with voluntary manslaughter and the jury can decide. From what we know so far it is applicable. This is not a simple case of someone getting drugs they should not have and taking to much where the majority of cod is on the user.

And you hang on to your hat too, i am not saying that MJ had no part in his cause of death even though i can understand why he believed it was safe with murray there. ESPECIALLY after his 93 experience and the many times he was put under for minor surgeries let alone major. Doesn't mean that he is cleared of all responsibilty though, but to me its like a person driving to fast in an old car that he bought believing the salesperson that it had new brakes when they were actually 30 years old and failed killing him. Yes he would be alive if he did not speed but his death was assured by the people who sold him the car since his belief in good brakes were part of his decision making process on whether he could slow down in time.

That is why it is called "Buyer Beware." The Dealer is not responisble. It is up to the buyer to check our the car before he goes speeding down the road in a 30 year old car. I feel your analogy is not valid. IMO

[ABC]

Wow!

I saw something entirely different that you in that 30 second spot. IIRC, it almost looks the same as the video of the same song done a few years back.

He looked good to me. It will be interesting to see the remaining 100 minues, won't it?
Seperate out Michael from the other dancers who are camaflague to his own non existint dancing in my opinion.

[Firehead11]

Certainly NO coincidence IMO

Many strange findings in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if MJ was "murdered" and not by Dr. Murray either.
Seems strange he left the room and came back to an 'EMPTY" IV.
Is it possible someone "adjusted" the IV - other than Dr. Murray? Many, many questions. JMHO

Strange:

MJ signs up for 10 concerts
It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
MJ possibly could not even do 50 concerts IMO
Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
MJ dead a month later
Surveillance tape missing
AEG hires someone to 'watch" MJ's house.
This someone follows "another someone" a mile away from home who dumps prescription meds / prescription pads
This someone turns over evidence to Craig Rivera a month later
Dr. Tohme Tohme has $5.5M in CASH

"In late 2008, a shadowy figure who called himself Dr Tohme Tohme suddenly emerged as Jackson’s ‘official spokesman’.

Tohmehas been alternately described as a Saudi Arabian billionaire and anorthopaedic surgeon, but he is actually a Lebanese businessman who doesnot have a medical licence. At one point, Tohme claimed he was anambassador at large for Senegal, but the Senegalese embassy said theyhad never heard of him.

Tohme’s own ties to the Nation of Islam came to light in March 2009,when New York auctioneer Darren Julien was conducting an auction ofMichael Jackson memorabilia.

Jackson’s handlers had twice before said no to Phillips. This time, with Tohme acting as his confidant, Jackson left the room agreeing to perform ten concerts at the O2.

Before long, however, ten concerts had turned into 50 and the potential revenues had skyrocketed. ‘The vultures who were pulling his strings somehow managed to put this concert extravaganza together behind his back, then presented it to him as a fait accompli,’ said one aide."

http://www.zimbio.com/Dr+Tohme+Tohme/articles/B36S9VCoPE2/Michael+Jackson+Death+Nation+Islam


:ohmy: Where is that fainting smilie when you need it?

[VC2]

sniped for space.........

Strange:

MJ signs up for 10 concerts
It is increased to 31 and then to 50 (by Dr. Tohme Tohme)
MJ is infuriated - does not want to do 50 concerts
MJ possibly could not even do 50 concerts IMO
Complete physical by independent doctor in March - passes with flying colors
Nurse Cherilyn Lee sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through April)
Lou Ferrigno who trained him (MJ wearing short-sleeved white t-shirt) sees no evidence of drug abuse or needle marks (through early May)
Dr. Murray enters scene in May after Ferrigno leaves
Other people around him witness no drug abuse -- but chef does mention oxygen tanks and seeing MJ in surgical garb in May
MJ dead a month later


http://www.zimbio.com/Dr+Tohme+Tohme/articles/B36S9VCoPE2/Michael+Jackson+Death+Nation+Islam

From Rolling Stone who did a full edition on his final days, i do not believe the 10 concert story at all.

The real version is apparently that he agreed to do 31 concerts at first, the extra 1 was to exceed what Prince had done, the two had a bit of a long running competition/feud in who was the best/did more and he wanted to out perform Princes last tour (i think it was his last). That makes sense to me. 10 concerts would hardly have covered the expenses imo given the sort of extravaganza Michael puts on for his fans.

When they went on sale, they were sold out in hours. Phillips then called Jackson to see if he was willing to do 20 more and he finally agreed on two conditions.

1. a manor house where a number of animals could be kept would be found for him and the children to stay at in england..again makes sense 50 tours is a more than a year. He would want to feel there was a real home for he and the kids.

2. that the guinness book of records would give him an award at the end of the tour.

IMO because it was the reporter who investigated and wrote the piece that said it on HLN one night but he did say the full story was in the issue of the Magazine that just came out called "Hope and Ruin" the final days of Michael Jackson's life.

Also very easy to prove imo bc the story of the 10 shows came out at first saying that it was after they sold out that the went to 30 then 50. No where have i seen just 10 dates went on sale

[daniel green]

Does anyone not find this strange considering that Dr. Murray allegedly "just left the room" and why is the surveillance tape missing? That bag shouild not have been EMPTY!

Lynda - where r u ???

".... IV stand nearby along with an[B] empty IV bag "

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. The bag was empty because it ran out with not doc in the room. As to the tape being missing, what a dumb move. Like the cops can't put 2 and 2 together.

[daniel green]

Thanks, who is it.

The Today Show also reported on it this morning.

Two additional pieces of information from that report:

- it was reported that the Murray's storage facility was not accessed in the month prior to the two women entering it on the day Jackson died.

- they showed the storage facility and a large sign on the side of the building advertised it as "Climate Controlled." This answers a previous poster's question about whether or not some drugs could be kept at Murray's storage facility.

IMO

ETA: It was also reported that a third interview has been scheduled between LE and Dr. Murray.

Hmmmmmmmm. How coincidental, eh? :rolleyes:

Thx for letting us know it was climate controlled!

[witchywoman]

My news station just reported breaking info on mj...

I cant copy the entire article ...but heres the link

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6935418

im just paraphrasing, but it looks to me like a insider is saying that that doc murray gave mj a shot of something..jmo

if this is old news, then my bad..

[retiredcop]

My news station just reported breaking info on mj...

I cant copy the entire article ...but heres the link

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6935418

im just paraphrasing, but it looks to me like a insider is saying that that doc murray gave mj a shot of something..jmo

if this is old news, then my bad..

I just heard a news flash that Dr. Murry admitted administering Diprivan the day Mr Jackson died. The information came from an anonymous law enforcement source. The source said it is not known if that's the drug that killed him though.

in my opinion

[VC2]

actually iirc he only asked the nurse about it around 2 weeks before his death. Murray arrived 11 days before his death to be the "in house physician".

further making me think it was to do with getting himself ready for rehearsals and the tour, in his mind good sleeps and being awake and ready without any after effects far more than any regular daily use for years of diprivan.

[GentleBreeze]

My news station just reported breaking info on mj...

I cant copy the entire article ...but heres the link

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6935418

im just paraphrasing, but it looks to me like a insider is saying that that doc murray gave mj a shot of something..jmo

if this is old news, then my bad..

Thanks, Witchy.

I am not surprised. All along TMZ and other outlets have said their inside sources with the investigation are saying MJ was overdosed on Propofol.

That is one of the reasons I believe Murry hooked up the IV and left the room and only returned when he thought it was time MJ would be waking up but imo he set the drip too fast and he had overdosed MJ with the Propofol and MJ was long gone and could not be brought back to life.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

OK - just trying to keep the facts that we do know straight. He asked Nurse Lee about the diprivan in April. Dr. Murray came on board in May and was there 5 nights a week -- he started living with MJ about 11 days before 6/25.

To take it a bit further -- the drugs we have been talking about were found in 2003 and we just don't know how those drugs were taken or if they were taken in a mixed cocktail etc. We don't know yet what drugs he had been taking of not taking recently. JMO

Right, it isn't relevant what drug bottles he had from 6 years ago. IMO, I want to know what drugs were in his system when he died other than the Propofol.

That is what will be relevant in the case imo.

And if so, how much and were they at acceptable levels except the Propofol. Would they have caused death or did the Propofol cause his death?

imo

[Imperfect4]

Maybe he was and not necessarily by Dr Murray either. The events surrounding this case are VERY suspicious. JMO

Anything's possible, but I was responding to a post by someone who seems to feel the Jacksons are waiting for autopsy results and aren't speaking publicly about his death yet. That's not true.

[RootBeer]

Dr. Murray is in big doo doo now. :scared:

[flipflop]

Yes, I saw that in a news flash but didn't have a link. They will know which drug killed him. Wasn't some pills found in his stomach? What if Mr Jackson was taking some pills and the doctor didn't know it. Dr Murry has admitted he administered the drug. He probably wouldn't have given Mr Jackson Diprivan if he knew Mr Jackson was taking something else.

in my opinion

I just heard on Nancy Grace, the same thing about Dr. Murray being the one who administered the drug.

Surely, Dr. Murray asked if he was taking any medications. Thats usually one of the first questions asked by a doctor isn't it?

[retiredcop]

I just heard on Nancy Grace, the same thing about Dr. Murray being the one who administered the drug.

Surely, Dr. Murray asked if he was taking any medications. Thats usually one of the first questions asked by a doctor isn't it?

I would think he did, but Mr Jackson may have said no knowing he wouldn't get the Diprivan if he said yes.

in my opinion

[flipflop]

AP source: Jackson doc gave him anesthetic drug before death
July 27, 2009, 5:12 PM EST

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Michael Jackson's personal doctor administered a powerful anesthetic to help him sleep, and authorities believe the drug is what killed the pop singer, a law enforcement official told The Associated Press on Monday.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing, said Jackson regularly received propofol to sleep, a practice far outside the drug's intended purpose. On June 25, the day Jackson died, Dr. Conrad Murray gave him the drug sometime after midnight, the official said.

Though toxicology reports are pending, investigators are working under the theory that propofol caused Jackson's heart to stop, the official said.

Murray, 51, has been identified in court papers as the subject of a manslaughter investigation and authorities last week raided his office and a storage unit in Houston. Police say Murray is cooperating and have not labeled him a suspect.

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=422942&gt1=28102

So, he was given the diprovan at midnight. Wonder when he actually realized he was dead? :sad:

I just read that again....it says sometime after midnight. Oops.

[Imperfect4]

Breaking News: Ted Rowlands / HLN now

ETA: Basically is saying what the AP article is saying above.

Does anyone besides me think Dr. Murray has admitted to administering the Propofol?

[Imperfect4]

Sounds to me like he did as well. Also referred them to the closet in the house where it was kept. I don't think he really had a choice. JMO

Probably not, but it's good he seems to be cooperating. Will save LE et al a lot of investigation time if Murray just tells it like it is. Of course, LE obviously thinks he's holding out on them somehow, thus the raid on his offices.

I wonder, after reading your Diprivan induction post up above, if perhaps MJ had something else (one of those other classes of drugs mentioned in your post) in his system that particular night, and so the Diprivan acted on him differently than "normal." Not any sort of excuse for either MJ or Dr. Murray, I'm just wondering if that might've been the difference that one time.

[Zenyatta]

//respectfully snipped for emphasis//
I wonder, after reading your Diprivan induction post up above, if perhaps MJ had something else (one of those other classes of drugs mentioned in your post) in his system that particular night, and so the Diprivan acted on him differently than "normal." Not any sort of excuse for either MJ or Dr. Murray, I'm just wondering if that might've been the difference that one time.


Good point. Here's some more detailed information on Diprivan that addresses just that. Also discusses some other rare, but dangerous, potential complications. The link also includes the recipe for the Myers Cocktail referred to by Nurse Cherilyn Lee, if anyone is interested.

Michael Jackson, Cherilyn Lee,
Diprivan, and Myer's Cocktail

http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php

//snip//

Propofol has a remarkably good safety record given its widespread use. The average human intravenous dose is 2 to 2.5 mg per kg body weight while the intravenous LD50 (dose that is lethal to 50% of a population) in mice is 50 mg/kg. When used alone, or in combinations with the opioid analgesic fentanyl, it produces a "dissociative analgesia" that is very rarely fatal. Hence, its safety is one of the reasons it is used for outpatient surgery, together with its rapid onset and quick recovery. However, the prescribing information for Diprivan notes specifically that the dose should be reduced when the drug is used together with opioids (such as meperidine or fentanyl) or other sedatives such as benzodiazepines.

[Note added: Later today, KevinMD (Dr Kevin Pho) further emphasized 1) there is no scientific basis for its unapproved indication in insomnia and that 2) propofol should never be found in a home. He goes on to say:


That is some serious malpractice, bordering on criminal, if any doctor had indeed injected Jackson with Diprivan simply to help him sleep.
]

While it is indeed a sedative, it has been reported to produce euphoria (the pleasant feelings of well-being most often associated with morphine and other opioids) in some people who have procured it for the purposes of clandestine use.

The potential risk is from "propofol-related infusion syndrome" - it can produce an elevation in body temperature that is usually not fatal (not "true" malignant hyperthermia as with the rare but fatal side effect of some inhaled anesthetics) but can trigger muscle breakdown called rhabdomyolysis, a rare but devastating side effect that can also occur with statin cholesterol-lowering drugs.

An excellent and timely review of propofol-related infusion syndrome was published in the May issue of Pharmacotherapy by Dr Stephanie Mallow-Corbett and colleagues from the University of Houston College of Pharmacy. The article is reprinted at Medscape (available with free registration). Most notable in this review is that while the syndrome is rare, it is fatal in 64% of cases when it does occur.

However, most relevant to the Jackson case is that propofol can cause cardiac tachyarrhythmias (rhythmic disturbances at high heart rate), especially in people predisposed to cardiac problems.

As I wrote last week in my blog post on Demerol ® (meperidine), Jackson's reported long-term use of this analgesic for back pain may have already primed him for cardiac problems due to the accumulation of a toxic metabolite, normeperidine. However - and please note - that while all of my pharmacology/toxicology discussion is based in science and medicine, any extrapolation to the Michael Jackson case and the cause of his death is speculation at this point. I only have access to the reports regarding his potential drug exposure that all of you do. Only time will tell what is the truth once the full autopsy and toxicology reports are released.

//snip//

[CinderL.]

I just heard on Nancy Grace, the same thing about Dr. Murray being the one who administered the drug.

Surely, Dr. Murray asked if he was taking any medications. Thats usually one of the first questions asked by a doctor isn't it?

You would think so. I don't think it mattered. IMO the diprovan killed him, but time will tell.

[Imperfect4]

Most of what we know are based on rumor and speculation; just wanted to say that before the answer is given.

According to RUMOR - it is believed that Dr. Murray fell asleep and woke up to find MJ dead. He should have been constantly monitoring MJ and that IV drip. The IV drip was EMPTY when he found MJ and it was too late for him to do anything.

Yep, I've heard that rumor. And it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. I would imagine sitting up all night watching a sleeping man and an IV drip would tend to make a person drowsy, at a minimum -- especially if he'd been sitting there most of the night.

[Imperfect4]

I do have to say that I feel sorry for the Dr to a point. He probably was doing this quite often and then that one night fell asleep. The reason I say "to a point" is because he really should not have been doing this outside of a hospital setting or at least had one more person to assist. I suppose when you are in debt it is hard to say no to $150K / month. :(

ITA with all you said here. I'm not making excuses for him, but ... just as perhaps MJ was enticed by money (and his own financial problems) to agree to more concert dates than he could physically handle, perhaps Dr. Murray was enticed to do things he couldn't handle either, for similar reasons.

[CinderL.]

I've had Versed (I think) for endoscopies and a colonoscopy. I'll assume someone in that room with us was well versed in anesthesia. :unsure:

I will assume the same. :ohmy: I don't think Dr. Murray had ever given anesthesia since maybe medical school. It wouldn't have been his job.

[sunstar]

I will assume the same. :ohmy: I don't think Dr. Murray had ever given anesthesia since maybe medical school. It wouldn't have been his job.

Since he wasn't even a surgeon, I don't see where he would've done it either. But he should've known he shouldn't be administering anesthesia either, no matter what MJ wanted. MOO

[CinderL.]

Since he wasn't even a surgeon, I don't see where he would've done it either. But he should've known he shouldn't be administering anesthesia either, no matter what MJ wanted. MOO

I think money talked in this case. As in others. Some of the hanger on's don't want to be pushed out of the inner circle, and some are paid to be in the inner circle. I think Dr. Murray was one of the money people.

[sunstar]

I think money talked in this case. As in others. Some of the hanger on's don't want to be pushed out of the inner circle, and some are paid to be in the inner circle. I think Dr. Murray was one of the money people.

Oh I agree, and I believe MJ knew he needed the money and would do whatever MJ wanted. But the ultimate responsibility lies with the Dr., imo, since he's the one who should have known he wasn't qualified to be using anesthesia. :smile: MOO

[sunstar]

Good article but the only way this will hold up is if in fact Dr. Murray did NOT fall asleep. I still question that IV bag being EMPTY -- it certainly should not have been empty and adds another danger and that is an AIR embolism. JMO
(bolding mine)


I thought about that too. That's why I originally asked how long would a bag last, if it was set properly (ratio of drug to patient weight, etc) and the patient was to be "out" several hours.

[CinderL.]

I am not sure he fully understood. I am watching the rerun of NG and the nurse practitioner said he assured her he would be okay because he would be monitored. So I think he thought the key to being cautious was to make sure he was constantly monitored.

ETA: And imo he was right, he would have been okay IF he had been monitored but he wasnt monitored at all imo.

imo

But, he,MJ, according to reports, had already had a Dr. who brought with him all of the equipment he needed to monitor him....who was actually an anesthesiologist. So, unless Dr. Murray lied to MJ and told him he had the equipment, and knowledge, he, MJ, was responsible. That is not to say that I don't hold Dr. Murray responsible also.

[Imperfect4]

I am not sure he fully understood. I am watching the rerun of NG and the nurse practitioner said he assured her he would be okay because he would be monitored. So I think he thought the key to being cautious was to make sure he was constantly monitored.

ETA: And imo he was right, he would have been okay IF he had been monitored but he wasnt monitored at all imo.

imo

My guess is he was monitored by Dr. Murray, just not well enough that night.

I also think MJ knew he was asking for something far beyond what he should be asking for (Diprivan administered at home), but he was used to asking for whatever he wanted and getting it.

The responsibility lies with both the "patient" and his doctor, imo.

[sunstar]

Delayed calling 911. IMO it would not have made a difference. Again if it were true that Dr. Murray fell asleep it would have been too late anyway and if he hadn't fallen asleep MJ would be alive today.

I agree, if he'd fallen asleep and MJ were already dead. I was going by another report where he supposedly said MJ had a pulse, then the Dr. tried CPR, then about 30 min. later called 911 after he found out what the address was. :sad: MOO

[Zenyatta]

Good article but the only way this will hold up is if in fact Dr. Murray did NOT fall asleep. I still question that IV bag being EMPTY -- it certainly should not have been empty and adds another danger and that is an AIR embolism. JMO

Agreed. Article is just speculation, as admitted by the author, and I just posted it to provide more (probably superfluous) information on Diprivan. Especially since the author took into consideration Michael's use of Demerol, past or present.

[sunstar]

But, he,MJ, according to reports, had already had a Dr. who brought with him all of the equipment he needed to monitor him....who was actually an anesthesiologist. So, unless Dr. Murray lied to MJ and told him he had the equipment, and knowledge, he, MJ, was responsible. That is not to say that I don't hold Dr. Murray responsible also.

Obviously MJ was desperate this time, even asking the nurse practioner/physician assistant (Cherilyn) to get him the diprivan. What if she had? Would he expect her to know how to properly administer it? I doubt it! When he'd used it previously he had an anesthesiologist administer and monitor it, so you'd think he would've known not just anybody could've done it properly. :shrug: MOO

[CinderL.]

Obviously MJ was desperate this time, even asking the nurse practioner/physician assistant (Cherilyn) to get him the diprivan. What if she had? Would he expect her to know how to properly administer it? I doubt it! When he'd used it previously he had an anesthesiologist administer and monitor it, so you'd think he would've known not just anybody could've done it properly. :shrug: MOO

You would think. He was warned. He was not a stupid person. He wanted what he wanted, and damn the consequences. It didn't work out well for him, or I think Dr. Murray....and maybe Dr. Kline.

[sunstar]

You would think. He was warned. He was not a stupid person. He wanted what he wanted, and damn the consequences. It didn't work out well for him, or I think Dr. Murray....and maybe Dr. Kline.

I'm just wondering how many times Dr. M had given it to him before that night. Maybe once or more with no problems so he thought everything would be ok if he stepped out of the room for a while, or maybe did fall asleep himself? :shrug:

[Zenyatta]

I'm just wondering how many times Dr. M had given it to him before that night. Maybe once or more with no problems so he thought everything would be ok if he stepped out of the room for a while, or maybe did fall asleep himself? :shrug:

So, if vitals need to be checked every 3 minutes (if I remember correctly), what happened when Dr. Murray had to go to the bathroom?

Surely he didn't have a catheter and a bed pan, did he?

And how about Dr. Ratner? What did he do during the tour when he had to go to the bathroom (provided it was Diprivan he adminstered then, which I would almost bet on)?

They were all playing Russian Roulette, imo.

[CinderL.]

We don't know for sure that Dr. Murray was not trained ..... just a thought !! Seems he had been doing it for at least 6 weeks before this night. No MJ wasn't stupid but he had used it before and it was successful - don't think he cared who administered it and don't know for sure he would have known that any doctor couldn't administer it. RN's who are trained administer diprivan.

Having said that wouldn't matter if Dr. Murray was trained or not -- he fell alseep. JMO

RN's that are trained have a respiratory therapist right at the bedside plus a Dr. Not someone who is not trained without the equipment needed to help someone in distress. And, we don't know what happened in the six weeks that Dr. Murray was there....or how many times he gave him Diprovan....or not. Right?

[Imperfect4]

So, if vitals need to be checked every 3 minutes (if I remember correctly), what happened when Dr. Murray had to go to the bathroom?

Surely he didn't have a catheter and a bed pan, did he?

And how about Dr. Ratner? What did he do during the tour when he had to go to the bathroom (provided it was Diprivan he adminstered then, which I would almost bet on)?

They were all playing Russian Roulette, imo.

Do you think they could shut off the drip for a few minutes to leave the room? :confused:

[CinderL.]

So, if vitals need to be checked every 3 minutes (if I remember correctly), what happened when Dr. Murray had to go to the bathroom?

Surely he didn't have a catheter and a bed pan, did he?

And how about Dr. Ratner? What did he do during the tour when he had to go to the bathroom (provided it was Diprivan he adminstered then, which I would almost bet on)?

They were all playing Russian Roulette, imo.

Yes, they were. IMO

[sunstar]

So, if vitals need to be checked every 3 minutes (if I remember correctly), what happened when Dr. Murray had to go to the bathroom?

Surely he didn't have a catheter and a bed pan, did he?

And how about Dr. Ratner? What did he do during the tour when he had to go to the bathroom (provided it was Diprivan he adminstered then, which I would almost bet on)?

They were all playing Russian Roulette, imo.

And that's exactly why this is supposed to be used in a hospital setting, with other trained personnel and medical equipment available!! I so agree about playing Russian Roulette. MOO

[VC2]

going to say this once only bc i can't believe i am..but when Anderson Cooper talked about Murray and mentioned he was 56 years old, i thought "what would it be like, in debt, thinking you are competent and a friend as well as patient offers you the "opportunity of a lifetime" as he described it to his former patients re his leave of absence and then..you kill the biggest live entertainer in the world. Perhaps and probably because you never thought of yourself as incompetent and a lousy physician. You have children in college, entering college or trying to pay off college debt in a recession, you are almost in your retirement years. I actually felt sorry for him. Do i think it was murder 2? Absolutely if the diprivan is the cod. thinking though, he is going to lose his life as he had it anyway with because his license will be stripped in a NY minute once the cod and charges are brought, his children and his wife will have no resources since the civil suit will strip him and them of everything, i cant imagine a jury on this planet that would not find him liable of malpractice...he will go down in infamy as the physician who killed Michael Jackson.

ok maybe i won't be outraged if its a manslaughter charge....i think if i was Murray they would wake up tomorrow to find my dead body. There is no reason to live left for this man. In fact if he is thinking about it, the only way to save anything for his family is to kill himself which i pray he does not do. Just that a civil suit can't be filed if he dies before it is. facing 15 years in prison when i would be 71 upon release? no contest, i would make sure my family did not lose everything first. Sadly the only way to protect his family and their home (its worth far more than his debts, 1.2 million) is to....before the civil suit is filed

Enough people have been devastated by this. Michael's children, his mom and siblings, fans who committed suicide at the news of his death. Not so sure i want another family to suffer the grief and hell of losing a loved one.

IMO

does anyone have his actual background? Did he go to medical school here?

[CinderL.]

I think you're right Unless, you were dead. That is exactly what I think happened. Dr. Murray left, and came back in the room, and MJ. was dead. He should be charged, he had no business giving this medication to anyone. IMO

[sunstar]

Unless, you were dead. That is exactly what I think happened. Dr. Murray left, and came back in the room, and MJ. was dead. He should be charged, he had no business giving this medication to anyone. IMO

I think that's what he said happened, that he'd "stepped out of the room" and when he came back MJ was unresponsive. But that was without mentioning that he'd administered an IV of diprivan. So at the time it didn't make sense why he was even in the room watching MJ sleep. All this was when his lawyer was speaking for him anyway though. MOO

[CinderL.]

going to say this once only bc i can't believe i am..but when Anderson Cooper talked about Murray and mentioned he was 56 years old, i thought "what would it be like, in debt, thinking you are competent and a friend as well as patient offers you the "opportunity of a lifetime" as he described it to his former patients re his leave of absence and then..you kill the biggest live entertainer in the world. Perhaps and probably because you never thought of yourself as incompetent and a lousy physician. You have children in college, entering college or trying to pay off college debt in a recession, you are almost in your retirement years. I actually felt sorry for him. Do i think it was murder 2? Absolutely if the diprivan is the cod. thinking though, he is going to lose his life as he had it anyway with because his license will be stripped in a NY minute once the cod and charges are brought, his children and his wife will have no resources since the civil suit will strip him and them of everything, i cant imagine a jury on this planet that would not find him liable of malpractice...he will go down in infamy as the physician who killed Michael Jackson.

ok maybe i won't be outraged if its a manslaughter charge....i think if i was Murray they would wake up tomorrow to find my dead body. There is no reason to live left for this man. In fact if he is thinking about it, the only way to save anything for his family is to kill himself which i pray he does not do. Just that a civil suit can't be filed if he dies before it is. facing 15 years in prison when i would be 71 upon release? no contest, i would make sure my family did not lose everything first. Sadly the only way to protect his family and their home (its worth far more than his debts, 1.2 million) is to....before the civil suit is filed

Enough people have been devastated by this. Michael's children, his mom and siblings, fans who committed suicide at the news of his death. Not so sure i want another family to suffer the grief and hell of losing a loved one.

IMO

does anyone have his actual background? Did he go to medical school here?

I do sort of feel sorry for Dr. Murray I think he was in dept, and MJ offered him a deal he couldn't refuse....but, he also knew that what he was doing was wrong.

[Zenyatta]

I think he's been EXTREMELY cooperative...and won't be surprised if a plea deal with very little to no jail time is reached.

I still want to know if his malpractice insurer will cover this ???

I'm hoping for a plea. For the sake of Prince, Paris, and Blanket, I hope the Jacksons don't have to go through a trial. I think they need to try to resume some semblance of a relatively normal life as soon as possible for the kids' sake, and I fear that trial would be a circus.

I had that question too. I have known psychiatrists who were sued for sleeping with their patients and their malpractice insurance covered it. That would surely be outside of the norm, wouldn't it? I'm very confused on that issue. And if Murray is convicted of a criminal act, I'd say that complicates matters even more. jmo

[VC2]

We don't know for sure that Dr. Murray was not trained ..... just a thought !! Seems he had been doing it for at least 6 weeks before this night. No MJ wasn't stupid but he had used it before and it was successful - don't think he cared who administered it and don't know for sure he would have known that any doctor couldn't administer it. RN's who are trained administer diprivan.

Having said that wouldn't matter if Dr. Murray was trained or not -- he fell alseep. JMO

He was not trained. The years needed to be an anaesthesiology physician or nurse are on top of the years he took to become a cardiologist. It is not a 1 year course and he would have been licensed in it if completed. Which would have been trumpeted as part of his credentials for good reason.

IMO

[VC2]

So, if vitals need to be checked every 3 minutes (if I remember correctly), what happened when Dr. Murray had to go to the bathroom?

Surely he didn't have a catheter and a bed pan, did he?

And how about Dr. Ratner? What did he do during the tour when he had to go to the bathroom (provided it was Diprivan he adminstered then, which I would almost bet on)?

They were all playing Russian Roulette, imo.

Ratner iirc had an assistant with him at the time to. I may be wrong but everything i learned about ratner and MJ was that he did stupid smart. iow not only monitored but with all the equipment needed to make anaesthesiologist comfortable and all the intubation/rescue equipment as well but an assistant. Only makes sense, MJ could afford it and ratner hardly planned to sit by a bed for 8 hours without food, bathroom breaks or just stretching his legs. I am sure it cost a fortune to have a mini surgical clinic accompany him but ..he knew he had someone trained and at least capable if completely unethical. I have a horrid suspicion that Murray either fell asleep, or had told a guard to watch him as he went to the bathroom. Unfortunately WITHOUT the monitoring equipment, there was little for the guard to watch. If you tell someone to watch the green line on a monitor and if it changes at all to run and get him, that is one thing. "sit here while i go to the bathroom" is another.

IMO

[FallenAngel♥]

Dr. Murray to Cops: I Gave Jackson Propofol

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/28/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-died-lapd-/

WOW at least he was honest.....but he's still going to prison.


moo

[daniel green]

Does anyone besides me think Dr. Murray has admitted to administering the Propofol?

Me.

There's no doubt in my mind.

Seems like he had some terrible legal advice and his out of town (Houston) lawyer had him to talk to the cops for like 4 hrs, just the one day.

[who_is_it]

Dr. Murray to Cops: I Gave Jackson Propofol

"We've told you since July 15 police believe Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to Michael Jackson -- the drug that killed him. There's a reason police believe it. Dr. Murray told them.

Two days after Jackson's death, Dr. Murray told LAPD detectives he administered Propofol to the singer hours before he died ... this, according to multiple law enforcement sources.

We're told Dr. Murray gave Jackson an IV drip of the powerful anesthesia. Police believe Dr. Murray simply wasn't paying attention when the singer's heart stopped beating.

Authorities believe Dr. Murray may have actually fallen asleep during the time the drug was administered and may have awakened to find Jackson already dead from heart failure.

An IV drip of Propofol allows a constant, steady infusion of the drug for a period of time determined by the person administering it.

It is considered reckless in the medical community for a doctor to administer an IV drip of Propofol without the patient being monitored by an EKG, which sounds an alarm when the patient's pulse drops too low. No EKG was found in the house.

Another device -- known as a pulse oximeter -- is used to determine the oxygen saturation in the patient's blood. If the patient's breathing slows to a dangerous level, an alarm alerts the treating physician. Again, no oximeter was found in the house."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/28/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-died-lapd-/

[R~O~S]

I don't think it's homicide Murray's being looked at for. As I understand it's manslaughter, at the moment. I certainly think, accidentally or by not providing correct treatment, he has put himself in a bad place. Anyway, time will tell.

Homicide isn't a charge, it's a manner of death. Specifically the death of one person by and act or omission of another. It's often not criminal like in the case of an accident or justified self defense.

The charge of manslaughter would require the manner of death was a homicide.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/51AB22D3-86AB-4B55-8648BC28B45909C0/alpha/H/

[GentleBreeze]

But, he,MJ, according to reports, had already had a Dr. who brought with him all of the equipment he needed to monitor him....who was actually an anesthesiologist. So, unless Dr. Murray lied to MJ and told him he had the equipment, and knowledge, he, MJ, was responsible. That is not to say that I don't hold Dr. Murray responsible also.

I would certainly think when asked by MJ the doctor conveyed that he was experienced in monitoring and administering the drug.

MJ told the nurse practitioner he was going to be monitored but of course imo we are going to find out he was not. All this doctor had to do is give MJ a list of "must have" equipment in order to properly do this and MJ would have gotten them imo.

And I don't think further equipment would have even helped even if Murray did have them. I think MJ had long been dead before the doctor even went back in to check on him.

imo

[Scampi]

Don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. Who is it posted an update: (see you all later hope I can get some sleep)


Dr. Murray to Cops: I Gave Jackson Propofol
Posted Jul 28th 2009 12:21AM by TMZ Staff

Authorities believe Dr. Murray may have actually fallen asleep during the time the drug was administered and may have awakened to find Jackson already dead from heart failure.

An IV drip of Propofol allows a constant, steady infusion of the drug for a period of time determined by the person administering it.

It is considered reckless in the medical community for a doctor to administer an IV drip of Propofol without the patient being monitored by an EKG, which sounds an alarm when the patient's pulse drops too low. No EKG was found in the house.

Another device -- known as a pulse oximeter -- is used to determine the oxygen saturation in the patient's blood. If the patient's breathing slows to a dangerous level, an alarm alerts the treating physician. Again, no oximeter was found in the house.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/28/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-died-lapd-/


Wow, if he failed to have the necessary equipment that is callous disregard for Michael's life, imo. Negligent homicide comes to mind also.

I am so angry at this man, who apparently let the dollar signs in his eyes blind him to the proper care of his patient.

I am looking forward to Murray's arrest.

[aproudmom]

Video on MJ / Propofol -

Discusses diprivan and also interviews a woman who became addicted to to it. Please note that the interview done with Uri Geller in the opening -- was done several years ago.

"Did Michael Jackson Have a Drug Problem?"

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14757245&ch=4226715&src=news

Morning Athena not sure were we are posting have not been on for a couple of days to post..thanks for the link guess it is time to get caught up...

[aproudmom]

Yes I did. I can't believe he did that either. The nurse has been nothing short of credible IMO.

Just want to make another comment from HLN to clear this up:

There IS NO connection as previously reported between Dr. Klein and Dr. Murray and NO emails were sent to or from Stacy Howe and Dr. Klein. The emails were restricted to correspondence between Stacy and Dr. Murray.

I saw that he is a friend of the family and is mad no one spoke up sooner...but I thought he got carried away also...they finally said that women had a storage unit in her name heard it on LKL so bad reporting when it was said to be Dr K office manager...

[aproudmom]

Good morning -- we were worried about you. Hope you had a nice weekend :)

The threads are divided into categories. Guess this thread will be about Dr. Murray (title wasn't changed) and then there are the custody and will threads, etc.

been out of town had 2 fallen solders and my BIL was part of the escort so we went to show our respect by waving our flags...just got home from one in New Albany so jumped on to see what was up
I have caught some about the doc and seen DR was going into Dr Klein's office yesterday IIRC...glad the media was not pizzin her off was waiting for a fight..but they seemed to have respected her a little more this time

[aproudmom]

There were a couple of erroneous reports on this. One said Howe worked for Dr Klein and another one reported she worked for Dr. Murray and emails were exchanged with Dr Klein making it appear they were connected. Both were incorrect. :angry:

wow omg last time I was on it was Dr. Klein's office manager..heck I even brought it up on here..and it was not even true..so was it correct last night that she just had a storage unit Murray used and it was just in her name or is that untrue also...:confused:

[aproudmom]

:patriot: :rose:

been trying to keep up on MJ on TV but hard to know what is bull and what is true...been in Ohio to KY to Indiana and home just now so I am so lost and don't know if I could ever get caught up seems something new everyday..I also heard they know from the Jackson camp Murray gave MJ that drug with in 24 hours of his death..but so far have not heard it confirmed by LE..for some reason I feel a arrest coming soon..just a gut feeling I guess...JMO

[aproudmom]

are you guys watching the "breaking news" ? It looks like dr. Murray might be arrested soon. His office is surrounded by police.

I think its his las vegas office about to be searched.

channel?...

[aproudmom]

Are you guys watching the "breaking news" ? It looks like Dr. Murray might be arrested soon. His office is surrounded by police.

I think its his Las Vegas office about to be searched.

I checked Fox CNN and HLN and nothing and so far nothing on CNN live stream....

http://www.cnn.com/live/

[aproudmom]

It was on MSNBC. They said they were sending a crew there.

oh ok thank you..not sure I get that channel sure CNN copters will be up there so I will just keep watching live stream and see..

[aproudmom]

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3

[aproudmom]

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream4
anyone know what is going on it keeps going in and out
ugh

http://www.cnn.com/live/

[lilismom]

It's on HLN right now. Wonder if they are going to arrest him???


Good afternoon to all you fine folks!

If they do, today, I think the autopsy results will be released as well.

IMO,
Lilismom

[aproudmom]

why would they be staked out at his home? I would have thought they already searched these places heck plenty of time to get rid of stuff what over a month?:confused:

[aproudmom]

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=10803255&nav=menu107_6

According to sources at the scene, the police have reportedly entered Red Rock Country Club.

This is where the Las Vegas home of Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's doctor, is located.

[CinderL.]

Coming up on FOX.

[aproudmom]

:ohmy: raid at home and office

Police have arrived at the Las Vegas office of Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's doctor. Watch live on KVBC.com.
5 minutes ago from web

[CinderL.]

Greg Jerad on FOX is very disturbed that it took so long to raid Dr. Murray's home and offices. I agree. What could they find now?

[aproudmom]

Oh weird. They have a search warrant not an arrest warrant per Fox. Weird - I would have thought they did that already ??
DEA just entered his home Unbelievable - obviously if he had anything in his home - it's not there now :angry:

wow man figured they had been there already and they are doing both at one time..they have to have reason to now..wonder if they got some tox back.,
[http://www.kvbc.com/

[Firehead11]

Talk about dropping the ball on this investigation... wow.

[retiredcop]

Greg Jerad on FOX is very disturbed that it took so long to raid Dr. Murray's home and offices. I agree. What could they find now?

They have to build up the probable cause to get the search warrant.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

Talk about dropping the ball on this investigation... wow.

How's that?

[CinderL.]

They have to build up the probable cause to get the search warrant.

in my opinion

I know you are right, but I would think they would have had that long ago. If they had probably cause to enter his Houston offices, why would they not have had probable cause for Vegas?

[retiredcop]

They did that last week when they searched the places in Houston. He already has a heads up now. This was extremely slow :angry:

OK, I guess you know how the police are suppose to work.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

well geez we can see they are there and at his home..did not need to see the reporter say that on the live stream from KVBC

[daniel green]

Not that it matters one way or another, but just read through last night's discussion and want to point out that diprivan comes--like all anesthetics--in a small vial. Not in IV bags. The bag of IV fluids was just the standard IV fluids, and the dirprivan is injected into the IV line into the patient's hand or whereitver it has been placed. Just like the nurse will inject whatever meds need to go in interveneously.

[CinderL.]

Exactly Cinder !!!!

At this point, I think it is a waste of time. What are they going to find? I don't think they would have found anything even if they had gone in earlier. I think everything that had to do with MJ happened in LA. IMO

[aproudmom]

OK, I guess you know how the police are suppose to work.:rolleyes:

in my opinion

I would have thought this is not how they do things but that is JMO..and I kinda know how LE works but not the DEA and all that..but with a death I really would have thought they would have searched at least all the offices instead of giving time to perhaps get rid of things..but that is JMO

[retiredcop]

I know you are right, but I would think they would have had that long ago. If they had probably cause to enter his Houston offices, why would they not have had probable cause for Vegas?

I don't know. I guess we have to wait and find out. They are moving slowly to have a good case for trial if it comes to that. Actually, Dr. Murray had a heads up the day Mr Jackson died. If he had anything to clean up he started then.

in my opinion

[CinderL.]

I don't know. I guess we have to wait and find out. They are moving slowly to have a good case for trial if it comes to that. Actually, Dr. Murray had a heads up the day Mr Jackson died. If he had anything to clean up he started then.

in my opinion

I agree. I don't think they will find anything connected to MJ. We'll see.

[daniel green]

What made you think we thought it was an IV bag? It goes into the IV bag and the amount dispensed is adjusted. :confused:

It doesn't go into the IV bag, though, does it? How?

[retiredcop]

I would have thought this is not how they do things but that is JMO..and I kinda know how LE works but not the DEA and all that..but with a death I really would have thought they would have searched at least all the offices instead of giving time to perhaps get rid of things..but that is JMO

If he had anything to clean up he started the day Mr Jackson died.

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

DEA is on KVBC but my darn volume is messing up anyone???never mind heard him

[retiredcop]

I agree. I don't think they will find anything connected to MJ. We'll see.

The thing is, when people clean up scenes, there is a good possibility they will miss something or not clean up something relevant to the case thinking it doesn't matter.

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

If he had anything to clean up he started the day Mr Jackson died.

in my opinion

guess you could be right..just think it should have been done sooner but I will not question them or their investigation they seem to be on top of it now I am kinda wondering why these offices are even open with no doctor the guy from the DEA out of Vegas said there was employees there he was not at the office and the other day there was some at the TX office I thought he was in the hole with money..O well just hope they do not stop at him I think there is others that need to be looked at also..JMO

[lilismom]

wonder how long it will be before that UPS driver is interviewed! did you all see that?!?

IMO,
Lilismom

[retiredcop]

guess you could be right..just think it should have been done sooner but I will not question them or their investigation they seem to be on top of it now I am kinda wondering why these offices are even open with no doctor the guy from the DEA out of Vegas said there was employees there he was not at the office and the other day there was some at the TX office I thought he was in the hole with money..O well just hope they do not stop at him I think there is others that need to be looked at also..JMO

I agree with you. I think there are others involved too.

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream2

http://www.kvbc.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?vt1=l&d1=0&ClipId1=mms%3A//a1853.l547952134.c5479.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1853/5479/v0001/reflector%3A52134&LiveURI=mms%3A//a1853.l547952134.c5479.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1853/5479/v0001/reflector%3A52134&h1=KVBC

They have live stream at both places now but not that we will see much DEA said they would be at the office for a couple of hours

[daniel green]

If he had anything to clean up he started the day Mr Jackson died.

in my opinion

This isn't some finding evidence hunt like at a crime scene. These cops--just like in Houston--know exactly what they're looking for and where it is. That's why that Houston search took so little time. In and out with what they came to get.

[lilismom]

This isn't some finding evidence hunt like at a crime scene. These cops--just like in Houston--know exactly what they're looking for and where it is. That's why that Houston search took so little time. In and out with what they came to get.

I agree. His private residence is not the scene of the "crime". They're there for something specific.

IMO,
Lilismom

[daniel green]

Joining us now, our defense attorneys. Mark Geragos, former Jackson attorney; and Trent Copeland; and Robin Sax, who's former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney and the author of "Predators and Child Molesters." Trent, you're also a CBS legal analyst. I don't want to slight you any.

Robin, first to you, a former deputy DA. You have this evidence now for linking this doctor to using the substance that investigators believe killed Michael Jackson.

As a prosecutor, what do you do with it?

ROBIN SAX, FORMER DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, L.A. COUNTY: I'm thinking I'm filing charges first thing in the morning if I -- if that's the report that I'm actually getting. The only question in my mind is whether it's going to be second degree murder or involuntary manslaughter.

MORET: Many people would say wait a minute. You're jumping the gun. You first have to know where he got the drug.

Did he get it from Michael Jackson?

What do you look at, did he give it to him and that's it, and did it kill him?

SAX: Well, if he was the person that administered this drug and he was the last doctor whop was tending to him and he knows that this drug can only be administered in the hospital, regardless if it was prescribed by someone else, received by someone else -- I'd get those people, too. Don't get me wrong. But first, I would start with Dr. Murray.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

I agree. His private residence is not the scene of the "crime". They're there for something specific.

IMO,
Lilismom

Right. It's not like they're looking for hair and fibers and fingerprints. No doubt Murray himself told them about something there during his hours speaking to police, and the DEA sent to fetch whatever medical record is there.

[lilismom]

Right. It's not like they're looking for hair and fibers and fingerprints. No doubt Murray himself told them about something there during his hours speaking to police, and the DEA sent to fetch whatever medical record is there.


Home office computer?

I wonder if Doc is even there?

IMO,
Lilismom

[daniel green]

MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ONETIME ATTORNEY: You look at everything. You've -- I'm sure that the lawyers have done a parallel investigation at the same time. So while the cops are investigating this, DEA is investigating this. My investigator is out there. I've got a team of investigators that would be out there, if they're -- if they're doing it.

The -- the thing that is going to be probably one of the -- the biggest problems for him is, I think, one of the things we can say definitively that isn't speculation is he did talk to the cops. And he talked to LAPD for hours.

If he talked to them for hours and if he admitted that he was the one who gave Diprivan -- Propofol -- as -- to Michael Jackson and if it's found in the body, the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to want to, as a defense lawyer, get an expert in there to tell me what's going on, how did that -- how did that interact with Michael Jackson's body?

Because that is going to be exactly where somebody like Robin is going to zone in on.

And she's absolutely correct, any D.A. -- especially the DAs that I suspect are handling this case right now -- are going to take a real hard look at whether this is an implied malice murder case -- a second degree murder case. Because you're going to find doctors everywhere who've been all over saying look, you don't administer Diprivan anywhere outside of a hospital. And unless you've got a hospital setting in that -- in that house itself, that's a real problem.

And that's what's going to give me pause as the defense lawyer.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

There is what is called a "port" on an IV that a syringe with the medication is inserted into unless I am not understanding what you mean?

* Any solution that is irritating or hypertonic should be administered via a central line
* This is also true of prolonged administration of nutrition
* In general, solutions that are injected / dripped into an IV should be clear. Notable exception is propofol (Diprivan) a.k.a. "milk of anesthesia".


http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/medical_education/undergraduate/spm/Procedure%20Manual/ivcath.html

Hmmmmmmmmm. Lemme go find this. the central line in the vein into the patient--the IV needle.

Not that it matters one whit, of course. But I am curious about stupid things. :laugh:

[daniel green]

Copeland:

You know, I think, as Mark indicated a second ago, you know, he would have his parallel investigation going on at this point. He'd have a team of -- of investigators looking to some of the very same things that are happening from the DA's perspective.

But the problem with that is, that I don't think that's happening. I mean, he's got a lawyer who's in Texas. He's got a lawyer who now, apparently, has also gotten a lawyer. And so I think when you've got a lawyer who's also getting a lawyer, I think then you've got some problems.

MORET: I've never heard of a lawyer getting a lawyer.

GERAGOS: No, I have. I have.

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: And, you know, one of the problems is, somebody comes to me and says, Mark, will you take my antitrust case?

I'm not doing their antitrust case. You go to somebody else and say I want you to take on a high profile situation like this, a criminal case, in a state case -- I mean, I -- I can't tell you the number of inquiries I get on a daily or monthly basis to take cases out of state. If it's a federal case, I'll do it because generally you've got the federal rules of procedure.

But when you're talking about going in, stepping into the middle of an investigation you know very little about, you don't know the intimate culture in Los Angeles and you're going to...

COPELAND: You don't know the players.

GERAGOS: You don't know the players at all. You don't know -- you don't know LAPD, which is -- is saying something. And then you offer up your guy for three-and-a-half hours, I feel for this lawyer in Texas. I mean, he probably took that -- LAPD told him, look, you're not a target, this guy's not a target, we just want to talk to him, it's just an investigation.

Well, you know, as I tell my clients, when you talk to the -- when the cops lie to you, that's -- the Supreme Court says that's OK. You lie to the cops, that's a separate offense.

COPELAND: Not OK.

GERAGOS: That's a criminal offense.

COPELAND: It's not OK.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

Home office computer?

I wonder if Doc is even there?

IMO,
Lilismom

Computer would be my guess. Emails. Fed Ex stuff.

[BOZGAL2]

There is what is called a "port" on an IV that a syringe with the medication is inserted into unless I am not understanding what you mean?

* Any solution that is irritating or hypertonic should be administered via a central line
* This is also true of prolonged administration of nutrition
* In general, solutions that are injected / dripped into an IV should be clear. Notable exception is propofol (Diprivan) a.k.a. "milk of anesthesia".


http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/medical_education/undergraduate/spm/Procedure%20Manual/ivcath.html


They use the IV pumps at the hospital and set the dosage on those. Usually mixed with another clear liquid.
Of course, I've heard no mention of an IV pump being found but I could be mistaken.

[daniel green]

GERAGOS:

Ted's point is absolutely correct. And what he's going to argue, look, you -- when you have EMTs come out, they are there basically to try and stabilize somebody long enough to get them to a doctor.

So if you've got a doctor there, calling 911 so that you can get somebody there to take him to a doctor -- the doctor is there.

If this doctor knows what he's doing and he's charged with taking care of Michael Jackson, that he's the -- he should be there working on Michael Jackson, not calling the chef or anything else.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[BOZGAL2]

This is like a Special Ops mission.
They know exactly what they are looking for.

I expect an arrest soon.
Just not sure if manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. JMO

[aproudmom]

I agree. His private residence is not the scene of the "crime". They're there for something specific.

IMO,
Lilismom

they said that on some show last night I think LKL..but his home? omg what would be there other than him..and they said just a search warrant..a record search at his home..guess if he had computers then I can see that..

[daniel green]

They use the IV pumps at the hospital and set the dosage on those. Usually mixed with another clear liquid.
Of course, I've heard no mention of an IV pump being found but I could be mistaken.

The reason it makes no sense to me is why, then the lidocaine? Because the burning sensation is at the injection site--the IV needle in hand place, say--and so lidocaine is used.

But, who knows?

[lilismom]

The reason it makes no sense to me is why, then the lidocaine? Because the burning sensation is at the injection site--the IV needle in hand place, say--and so lidocaine is used.

But, who knows?

maybe it burns when going in, even thru iv, so you would use the lidocaine first thru the iv then the propofol/diprovan? i have had meds thru iv burn before.

IMO,
Lilismom

[CinderL.]

they said that on some show last night I think LKL..but his home? omg what would be there other than him..and they said just a search warrant..a record search at his home..guess if he had computers then I can see that..

I want to know where the drug came from. If there were emails from MJ, or someone that worked for MJ telling Dr. Murray he wanted Diprovan, and they could show that Dr. Murray got the Diprovan, that would be big. I still think the drugs came from Dr. Kline. IMO

[retiredcop]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Lemme go find this. the central line in the vein into the patient--the IV needle.

Not that it matters one whit, of course. But I am curious about stupid things. :laugh:

OK, but you didn't have to admit it.:biggrin:

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

This is like a Special Ops mission.
They know exactly what they are looking for.

I expect an arrest soon.
Just not sure if manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. JMO

LOL I said I see a arrest soon then all of a sudden someone said they were at his home so I thought he was being arrested..guess my gut so far is not right but I do see it soon but like you just do not know what the charge will be..on HLN or CNN heck I am flipping channels they said he was not at the office or the home..like to know how they knew he was not home I know he was not at the office cause the DEA said he was not but they never said he was not at the home..wonder just were he is..I guess I am just wondering what is going through this doctors head if he is charged with the death of MJ his life is pretty much over he is broke from what we have heard..does he have a wife and kids? I have not heard

[daniel green]

SAX: But I still think we need to go back and look at Dr. Conrad Murray's behavior, as you bring up, with the -- the phone calls.

I think there is a ton of consciousness of guilt evidence -- the failure to call 911 right away; the fact Dr. Murray was nowhere to be found at the time that the EMT actually did finally arrive -- or, I'm sorry -- actually transport him to the hospital.

There's behaviors that make you want to question. And when you have a clear ringleader or a clear evidence toward one person, it's a lot easier to start there and then start working down on everybody else.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[retiredcop]

This isn't some finding evidence hunt like at a crime scene. These cops--just like in Houston--know exactly what they're looking for and where it is. That's why that Houston search took so little time. In and out with what they came to get.

Well ok then. LOL

in my opinion

[Eagleeye]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Lemme go find this. the central line in the vein into the patient--the IV needle.

Not that it matters one whit, of course. But I am curious about stupid things. :laugh:

Here you go.

http://www.thebody.com/content/art1786.html

[daniel green]

maybe it burns when going in, even thru iv, so you would use the lidocaine first thru the iv then the propofol/diprovan? i have had meds thru iv burn before.

IMO,
Lilismom

It burns at the SITE, though. Like phrenegran, for instance--which I know I never spell right, sorry!

Like I said, I will take my curious about stupid stuff self off to find out how it's actually administered.

[doradoll]

It doesn't go into the IV bag, though, does it? How?

it doesn't matter if it is in a bag or a bottle

the tubing that is connected to the patient can be connected to a bag or a bottle

the bottle has a round rubber stopper at the top of it (as does a bag of any other IV fluids)....the tubing has a sharp spike with a hole in it that allows the fluids to flow down the tubing to the patient

the tubing has a roller clamp on it to allow the drip the be slowed down or it can be unrolled to allow the fluid to run free

Diprivan should be run thru tubing specially made to go thru an electronic pump that measurea the dose passing thru the tubing in tiny amounts......it should never be infused without a pump

[daniel green]

Here you go.

http://www.thebody.com/content/art1786.html

Thx!

Right. He would have had this:

Peripheral Venous Access
This is the typical "hospital IV" line put in your hand or forearm when you are admitted to the hospital. It is a short catheter, usually 3/4 to 1 inch long, inserted into a small peripheral vein and designed to be temporary. These catheters need to be changed every three days, or more often if they dislodge from the vein. Because the veins used are small and have less blood flowing past the catheter, many medications can irritate a peripheral vein. There is a plastic dressing over the catheter, which has to be kept clean and dry at all times. These peripheral IV lines work well in the hospital, where there are nurses to monitor and change them frequently, but are impractical for extended home use because of the potential for dislodging the small catheter from the vein. You have to be careful when moving your arm and daily activities become a little more difficult. Blood cannot be drawn for lab tests from a peripheral catheter. A peripheral catheter needs to be flushed with a saline and heparin injection after every use or at least twice daily if not in use. Saline is a salt solution used to clean or "flush out" the catheter and heparin is flushed into the catheter to prevent blood from clotting in it between uses.

The usual IV line we are all familiar with. And the meds are pushed into that--not the bag, at least for most meds.

[aproudmom]

It doesn't go into the IV bag, though, does it? How?

it just goes into the IV port right? not a actual bag I would think they would see any IV marks when he was in the hospital or fresh ones anyway..or maybe they do not bruise everyone like they do me...heck I look like I am a druggie when they get done with me..my veins are crappy

[daniel green]

CALLER: Hi, I have a two-fold question. First, what is the difference between second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter? And if Dr. Murray is found guilty, what are the consequences for both?

GERAGOS: The second-degree murder is what's called an implied malice murder, which means you don't -- you didn't necessarily intend it, you did something so recklessly that it caused the death. The main difference between that and the manslaughter is the penalty. The penalty for manslaughter is two, three or four years in state prison. The penalty for a second-degree implied malice murder is 15 to life.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[doradoll]

many times lidocaine is used before an IV is started

you can inject a very tiny amount with a tiny needle just beneath the skin at the site where you plan to place the larger needle for the IV

if someone is afraid of needle, we often do this pre-operatively

[GentleBreeze]

Home office computer?

I wonder if Doc is even there?

IMO,
Lilismom

I wonder if they got a tip that the 4 or 5 boxes taken from his storage unit were delivered to his home or taken to his home after they were delivered to him. Does anyone know if they located the Howe woman who is to be his office manager?

They sure have to have something to get probable cause.

imo

[daniel green]

LEE: He was very healthy.

MORET: So there was nothing -- When you saw him, this is January --

LEE: This is the first of February now.

MORET: There was nothing looking at him that would make you think this guy's in trouble?

LEE: No, no organ problems whatsoever.

MORET: Really?

LEE: None.

MORET: Dr. Drew?

DR. DREW PINSKY, VH-1'S "CELEBRITY REHAB": That doesn't surprise me.

MORET: That doesn't surprise you?

PINSKY: No, not at all. If I had seen Howard Samuels at age 20, I wouldn't have been able to tell what was going on. It's very difficult to detect those kinds of things, particularly if you're using pharmaceutical substances. They're safe. That's why we prescribe them. They don't have end organ problems associated with them.

MORET: Michael Jackson specifically asked for a drug by name.

PINSKY: He asked Cherilyn about that too, which is extraordinary. She must have been shocked, if she even heard the name of the drug.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[aproudmom]

Thx!

Right. He would have had this:

.

The usual IV line we are all familiar with. And the meds are pushed into that--not the bag, at least for most meds.

I had one that they left in for 3 days after I came home from having my gallbladder removed and had so much infection..so they put something in it to clog it up and then my doctor flushed it with something before he hooked it up at his office but the second day I do not know what happened they had to run a new one it had been in to long and it was like the bag was flowing but not in my vein and I passed out flat on the floor...you talk about embarrassing:biggrin:

[athina]

TMZ is reporting that a locksmith was called to Dr. Murray's house so I guess he wasn't there...

[daniel green]

MORET: What kind of records were they looking for?

LEE: They just wanted a hard copy of what I had already stated about the Diprivan.

MORET: Drew, we were talking in the break, if Cherilyn had not come forward, when do an Autopsy, you're not going to look for Diprivan.

PINSKY: That's not on the routing toxicology screen. That's for sure. It's very rapid acting, so it could be out of the body. I wonder how they're going to even screen for it, such as it is, with them looking for it.

MORET: Howard, when you hear a doctor being linked to this substance that you can't get outside of a hospital setting -- you've got a lot of experience. You know -- you talk about doctors being on retainer. Have you ever heard of anything to this level?

SAMUELS: Absolutely not. It just goes to show the access that Michael Jackson had, OK? To be able to so seduce a doctor to be able to get this drug that isn't even on the street, nor, in my own experience in treating thousands of addicts, do people come into treatment with an addiction to it.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[doradoll]

It is very likely that he had a main line of basic IV fluids dripping (like normal saline)... then with a short acting drug like Diprivan, he could inject a few milimeters into an injection port on the main line every 15 or 30 minutes for desired effect

I hope this guy wasn't stupid enought to have Diprivan as the only drip infusing....that would be impossible to control in the small amount of the liquid needed

[cutiepatootie61]

TMZ is reporting that a locksmith was called to Dr. Murray's house so I guess he wasn't there...

Do you think they found and questioned these two women who removed boxes from the storage unit, and they said that they brought the boxes to Murray's home? What could they possibly be looking for in the home?
When will we get to see these search warrants? Was it the next day after the raid at the office that those were released? Can't keep track of all this and live life too anymore, I'm sooooo confused....

[daniel green]

MORET: And you show him the listing for this drug and said this is what it can do?

LEE: Yes, I left his house, drove back to my office and came back with the book, because I said he is not getting it from me.

MORET: You were stunned when you saw it?

LEE: I was definitely stunned.

MORET: What was his reaction?

LEE: His reaction was you don't understand. I'm going to be monitored, so I will be safe. I see what the book is saying, but I'll be monitored. You know, someone will monitor me and I'll be safe.

MORET: Drew, I hear from Cherilyn something that's frightening. It's a patient saying, you know what, I'm OK because a doctor will be there.

PINSKY: Not OK. But when a patient asks for medication by name, dose and route of administration, there is a problem. It's not the first time. Think about it, Jim. What if someone had said, give me this medicine. You'll need cardiac monitoring throughout the night, but you'll be OK. You're going to say, I'll have none of that please.

It's happened before. Whatever patients are in a position to do that, it's an adulteration of the physician/patient relationship.

MORET: Howard, if you are hooked or you believe you are hooked on something, you look past that.

SAMUELS: As a recovering addict, I manipulated doctors. I manipulated everyone to get the drug that I wanted. That's common.

MORET: I asked one doctor, was Michael Jackson doctor shopping. And this doctor said no, doctors were shopping him.

SAMUELS: You know what, I believe that. I believe that happens with many, many celebrities in this town.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[daniel green]

It is very likely that he had a main line of basic IV fluids dripping (like normal saline)... then with a short acting drug like Diprivan, he could inject a few milimeters into an injection port on the main line every 15 or 30 minutes for desired effect

I hope this guy wasn't stupid enought to have Diprivan as the only drip infusing....that would be impossible to control in the small amount of the liquid needed

Right. Those were my thoughts, exactly. So you have a regular saline drip (the IV bag( and then push the diprivan (and whatever else) through the line. What we layfolks think of the needle going into our hand or wherever the IV is placed.

THX!

[daniel green]

MORET: What possible reasons, Drew, could a doctor have? If Dr. Murray used Diprivan, what could he say to the authorities?

PINSKY: As a justification?

MORET: Yes.

PINSKY: The only thing I can imagine him saying -- and I don't think it's a justification -- is that this a protocol established by somebody else. But the fact is, insomnia -- there is not a medical textbook on Earth that will put Diprivan on the protocol for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. I'm sure there were other people involved in making the recommendation. He will just say, I was there to do the monitoring.

The fact is, insomnia, there is not a textbook that will put Diprivan for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. He will say I was there to do the monitoring.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[lilismom]

Right. Those were my thoughts, exactly. So you have a regular saline drip (the IV bag( and then push the diprivan (and whatever else) through the line. What we layfolks think of the needle going into our hand or wherever the IV is placed.

THX!

I don't think though that that doesn't mean it still doesn't burn. I have had an IV done and medications administered thru the IV that burn. So I guess the question is, would Lidocaine be used thru the IV to stop the burn of the Diprivan?

IMO<
Lilismom

[retiredcop]

Right. Those were my thoughts, exactly. So you have a regular saline drip (the IV bag( and then push the diprivan (and whatever else) through the line. What we layfolks think of the needle going into our hand or wherever the IV is placed.

THX!

This is the tread about Dr Murray - raid: items seized. There is a daily thread open.

in my opinion

[daniel green]

ROWLANDS: And a couple e-mails to a specific person. We did find out through a source that that individual -- that mystery woman in the e-mails that were confiscated as part of the search warrant is the individual that had a storage locker in her name, not Dr. Murray's name, in Houston, but was using it for Dr. Murray. That's according to a source familiar with the investigation.

Basically, in a case like this, the DEA is involved. And they do this all the time. They know what they're looking for. You've got to think about going into a medical office. It's not like going into a drug dealer's house, where you're looking for anything.

They're looking for very specific things. And that's why it didn't take them long. They went in, got what they needed and left.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

[doradoll]

Right. Those were my thoughts, exactly. So you have a regular saline drip (the IV bag( and then push the diprivan (and whatever else) through the line. What we layfolks think of the needle going into our hand or wherever the IV is placed.

THX!


yes, that would be much safer than actually having the Diprivan as the only fluid dripping, which could have been the case, especially since it seems he didn't control it well

It is possible to run it by itself, though. Most all the bottle or bags that is comes in are designed with a port that can be spiked with the top end of the IV tubing that connects to the patient.

He would have been really STOOPID to have done it that was without an infusion pump to dose out measured amounts thru the tubing.

All I can say, as a practicing RN, that this is BIZARRE beyond belief. I would have never thought anyone with such a career as this MD could do something so unethical. He is going to jail.

[cutiepatootie61]

TMZ is reporting that a locksmith was called to Dr. Murray's house so I guess he wasn't there...

Locksmith??? This article states that Dr. Murray was home at the time of the search, why would a locksmith be needed? Is he barracading himself in the house? Is there a safe that he conveniently lost a combination too?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090728/ap_on_en_mu/us_michael_jackson_doctor

[athina]

Locksmith??? This article states that Dr. Murray was home at the time of the search, why would a locksmith be needed? Is he barracading himself in the house? Is there a safe that he conveniently lost a combination too?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090728/ap_on_en_mu/us_michael_jackson_doctor

I don't know, I read the article saying that he was at home too, so I'm not sure if they wanted the locksmith for something else... this is TMZ so it could be wrong but they first broke the story on his death even before all other national stations so, who knows! LOL

[daniel green]

snipped

All I can say, as a practicing RN, that this is BIZARRE beyond belief. I would have never thought anyone with such a career as this MD could do something so unethical. He is going to jail.

It truly is bizarre. And, yeah, he's going to jail.

The reason this sparked an interest (aside from the difficult custody issue, which is interesting to me in a professional way) is the craziness of actually giving a patient this stuff in a non-hospital setting. And a patient knowing what to ask for. Bizarre.

[athina]

It truly is bizarre. And, yeah, he's going to jail.

The reason this sparked an interest (aside from the difficult custody issue, which is interesting to me in a professional way) is the craziness of actually giving a patient this stuff in a non-hospital setting. And a patient knowing what to ask for. Bizarre.

The thing that first interested me (besides being MJ that is) is that he is not the first to die this way (Anna Nicole, Heath Ledger???) and this has to stop.

It's not possible that only because you have the means to get and buy everything you want, you can fuel your own addictions not from drug dealers but from doctors!! that is beyond wrong IMO.

[who_is_it]

What I find strange is:

According to Lee Michael called her on June 21 to get diprivan. Imo it's likely he had no other supplier for this drug. 4 days later he died. Possibly he has found a (new?) supplier in this short period of time and maybe he didn't take the drug for a while. (Apart from his drug use years back) he maybe started the anesthesia drug use only shortly before his death imo.

[daniel green]

snipped
It's not possible that only because you have the means to get and buy everything you want, you can fuel your own addictions not from drug dealers but from doctors!! that is beyond wrong IMO.

Absolutely.

Dr Pinsky last night and the other gentleman who is a recovered addict and runs a rehab talked about how they had seen celebs who are addicted to Rx drugs leaving the LA area, and they attributed that to docs being more reticent, at this time, to give them scripts as they have in the past. But, they've moved elsewhere, where docs will give them.

[who_is_it]

The thing that first interested me (besides being MJ that is) is that he is not the first to die this way (Anna Nicole, Heath Ledger???) and this has to stop.

It's not possible that only because you have the means to get and buy everything you want, you can fuel your own addictions not from drug dealers but from doctors!! that is beyond wrong IMO.

Street addicts get strong prescription drugs as substitutes from their doctors. Street addicts should get them (and die... and nobody investigates it... ) but if celebrities get them prescribed die it's criminal? Where does one draw the line?

I would never deny Dr. Murray acted recklessly. Nevertheless I feel sorry for him. I don't believe he had bad intentions. I also don't think he was motivated by greed. I could imagine it's more likely he wanted to help his friend with his sleeping problems. Obviously he wasn't aware of the risks of this drug because he had no oximeter and no defribrillator.

[daniel green]

I don't think though that that doesn't mean it still doesn't burn. I have had an IV done and medications administered thru the IV that burn. So I guess the question is, would Lidocaine be used thru the IV to stop the burn of the Diprivan?

IMO<
Lilismom

DIPRIVAN may be administered via a Y-piece close to the injection site, into infusions of Dextrose 5% Intravenous Infusion, Sodium Chloride 0.9% Intravenous Infusion or Dextrose 4% with Sodium Chloride 0.18% Intravenous Infusion.

The glass pre-filled syringe (PFS) has a lower frictional resistance than plastic disposable syringes and operates more easily. Therefore, if DIPRIVAN is administered using a hand held pre-filled syringe, the line between the syringe and the patient must not be left open if unattended.

DIPRIVAN 1% may be premixed with alfentanil injection containing 500 µg/mL alfentanil (RAPIFEN; Janssen Pharmaceuticals Ltd.) in the ratio of 20:1 to 50:1 v/v. Mixtures should be prepared using sterile technique and used within 6 hours of preparation.

In order to reduce pain on initial injection, that part of the DIPRIVAN 1% used for induction may be mixed with Lignocaine Injection (See Dilution and Co-administration table below).

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/datasheet/d/Diprivaninj.htm


Sure does seem like it's pushed into the patient via the IV, not the bag, and that the lido is for that burning at the site.

[daniel green]

Propofol is frequently used for sedation, induction, and maintenance of anesthesia. It is, however, associated with pain on injection. Propofol-Lipuro® has an oil phase that allows a larger proportion of propofol to be dissolved in it and, thereby, apparently reduces pain. However, studies investigating this have had methodological limitations. We devised a randomized, double-blind, crossover study comparing pain on injection between two preparations of propofol, Diprivan® and Propofol-Lipuro®, in subanesthetic doses. Sixty healthy patients received the drugs in random order via the same injection site separated by 10 min and a 0.9% saline flush. Pain was assessed using a verbal rating score (VRS) during and at 1-min time points after injection.

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/3/675

[ScoobyDoo]

Street addicts get strong prescription drugs as substitutes from their doctors. Street addicts should get them (and die... and nobody investigates it... ) but if celebrities get them prescribed die it's criminal? Where does one draw the line?

I would never deny Dr. Murray acted recklessly. Nevertheless I feel sorry for him. I don't believe he had bad intentions. I also don't think he was motivated by greed. I could imagine it's more likely he wanted to help his friend with his sleeping problems. Obviously he wasn't aware of the risks of this drug because he had no oximeter and no defribrillator.


I tend to feel more sorry for the street addicts who die, and aren't worthy of investigation, than I do for the Doctors, such as Dr. Murray.

[aproudmom]

TMZ is reporting that a locksmith was called to Dr. Murray's house so I guess he wasn't there...

oh thanks did not hear that..HLN is finally live there

[aproudmom]

I tend to feel more sorry for the street addicts who die, and aren't worthy of investigation, than I do for the Doctors, such as Dr. Murray.

I did not mean he should not be in trouble I kinda meant I always worry someone may take their own life if they feel theirs are over..and no matter what I would never want to wish death even on him..not that he would I just wondered if he had family and I also feel for the addicts all of them

[retiredcop]

What I find strange is:

According to Lee Michael called her on June 21 to get diprivan. Imo it's likely he had no other supplier for this drug. 4 days later he died. Possibly he has found a (new?) supplier in this short period of time and maybe he didn't take the drug for a while. (Apart from his drug use years back) he maybe started the anesthesia drug use only shortly before his death imo.

That is strange. Why would he call that woman if Dr Murray was there supplying him with the drug? Maybe she's lying. She is really enjoying her 15 minutes of fame.

in my opinion

[aproudmom]

The thing that first interested me (besides being MJ that is) is that he is not the first to die this way (Anna Nicole, Heath Ledger???) and this has to stop.

It's not possible that only because you have the means to get and buy everything you want, you can fuel your own addictions not from drug dealers but from doctors!! that is beyond wrong IMO.

ITA:thumbup:
and we are so lucky we have not lost more..there are so many right now as we speak who are doing the same thing

[BOZGAL2]

The reason it makes no sense to me is why, then the lidocaine? Because the burning sensation is at the injection site--the IV needle in hand place, say--and so lidocaine is used.

But, who knows?

I read that Lidocaine is also used with Epinephrine/Adrenaline.
I also read somewhere that DR administered adrenaline. Not sure where.

Maybe thats what is was there for. :huh:

[Nic99]

Street addicts get strong prescription drugs as substitutes from their doctors. Street addicts should get them (and die... and nobody investigates it... ) but if celebrities get them prescribed die it's criminal? Where does one draw the line?

I would never deny Dr. Murray acted recklessly. Nevertheless I feel sorry for him. I don't believe he had bad intentions. I also don't think he was motivated by greed. I could imagine it's more likely he wanted to help his friend with his sleeping problems. Obviously he wasn't aware of the risks of this drug because he had no oximeter and no defribrillator.

I don't feel sorry for Dr Murray at all. He was a Doctor and, as such, should have made it his duty to find out the appropriate equipment, procedure, and the like for treating his patient in a safe manner. He is a Doctor and should have known better than to go in blind imo.

[aproudmom]

That is strange. Why would he call that woman if Dr Murray was there supplying him with the drug? Maybe she's lying. She is really enjoying her 15 minutes of fame.

in my opinion

:ohmy:retiredcop we agree on something J/K :wink:but I did pick that up last night and thought the same thing..well I don't know about her 15 minutes but I do wonder if he really called her on Fathers day when he had a doctor living with him pretty much

[aproudmom]

oh BTW someone opened a daily thread not sure if it had been posted
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13318016&posted=1#post13318016

[retiredcop]

I don't feel sorry for Dr Murray at all. He was a Doctor and, as such, should have made it his duty to find out the appropriate equipment, procedure, and the like for treating his patient in a safe manner. He is a Doctor and should have known better than to go in blind imo.

You know Nic, Mr Jackson had all kinds of pills there. He could have taken pills himself which didn't combine well with Diprivan.

in my opinion

[doradoll]

Street addicts get strong prescription drugs as substitutes from their doctors. Street addicts should get them (and die... and nobody investigates it... ) but if celebrities get them prescribed die it's criminal? Where does one draw the line?

I would never deny Dr. Murray acted recklessly. Nevertheless I feel sorry for him. I don't believe he had bad intentions. I also don't think he was motivated by greed. I could imagine it's more likely he wanted to help his friend with his sleeping problems. Obviously he wasn't aware of the risks of this drug because he had no oximeter and no defribrillator.

I feel sorry for him in the fact that he has destroyed his own life and career, but this is beyond reason. There is NO WAY that he did not know the danger he was in...why he took the chance besides greed, I have no idea.

This is not like someone gets Morphine in the hospital and then gets a prescription for home use. There is no home use for this. Pt's receiving this are on ventilators for the most part or having small doses given for a surgical procedure. It is beyond malpractice.

[Nic99]

You know Nic, Mr Jackson had all kinds of pills there. He could have taken pills himself which didn't combine well with Diprivan.

in my opinion

Yes true, he may have, but, he also may not have and Dr Murray I believe was negligent, but we will have to wait and see. All will be revealed.....

[retiredcop]

:ohmy:retiredcop we agree on something J/K :wink:but I did pick that up last night and thought the same thing..well I don't know about her 15 minutes but I do wonder if he really called her on Fathers day when he had a doctor living with him pretty much

Everytime I turn around she's on another show. I wonder if she gets paid for that? Yes it is nice we agree. :wink:

in my opinion

[doradoll]

That is strange. Why would he call that woman if Dr Murray was there supplying him with the drug? Maybe she's lying. She is really enjoying her 15 minutes of fame.

in my opinion


perhaps Dr Murray said he would administer it, but would not be able to get it for him

some of the packaging that I have seen looks to be from out of the United States

corner drug stores do not carry Diprivan

it is a hospital drug or outpatient surgical/endoscopy center etc

[aproudmom]

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/3/675

ok I know all to well about the burning but I have never ask why..and god forbid I need it again any time soon but does anyone know if the burning is actually the med or is it because of it being a thick med..I know the antibiotic I get is very thick and it hurts so bad..so is it something in this drug that causes the burning..

[retiredcop]

Yes true, he may have, but, he also may not have and Dr Murray I believe was negligent, but we will have to wait and see. All will be revealed.....

I wonder if it's true there was an IV pole with an empty bag and oxygen units there. If so, Dr Murray may have been monitoring him correctly.

Still, I believe he was negligent in some way, I just don't know the degree of negligence.

in my opinion

[retiredcop]

perhaps Dr Murray said he would administer it, but would not be able to get it for him

some of the packaging that I have seen looks to be from out of the United States

corner drug stores do not carry Diprivan

it is a hospital drug or outpatient surgical/endoscopy center etc

Someone had posted a link here where it can be bought on the internet without a prescription. That could be a reason for the packaging.


in my opinion

[aproudmom]

perhaps Dr Murray said he would administer it, but would not be able to get it for him

some of the packaging that I have seen looks to be from out of the United States

corner drug stores do not carry Diprivan

it is a hospital drug or outpatient surgical/endoscopy center etc

does she work in a hospital? I know she has a office and Murray had no privileges at a hospital see around here we do not have the centers you go to the hospital they have outpatient surgeries but we do not have a office were you go a doctor does it at the hospital..I think this is also what they are looking for how this doctor or MJ got this..I saw it is also made in the UK