Dr Murray - raid: items seized

[doradoll]

I called the on-line Rx number. You have to have a prescription, but if you don't have one you can fill out an information form and if their doctor agrees that you need it, then he will write the Rx for you.

It sounded like I was speaking to someone in India.

CAH-RAZY!!!!!!

[Doselady]

I work in a ICU step down unit in a medium sized hospital.

This is how a typical experience for me would be with Diprivan.

A patient in my unit will go into respiratory distress (say someone with severe asthma etc). They will start struggling despite all other efforts. A rapid response team is called and we have to place a tube down the patient airway to hook them to a ventilator and send them to ICU. They are fighting and struggling so the tube cannot be placed safely without damage to their vocal cords and teeth etc.

Now, we are not even allowed to have Diprivan on our unit. We either have to send urgent orders to the in house pharmacy or get it from ICU's medication machine. We do not carry it in our crash cart. We spike the bottle with the top of the IV tubing (the spike), fill the tubing full of it and thread it thru an infusion pump that gives measured doses of it. The pt immediately goes limp and we intubate and transfer the patient to ICU where they get small measured doses to keep them "down" while their breathing is assisted by the ventilator, turning the drip off occasionally to see what their neurological status is.

It is not something sitting around somewhere. I can see where an ICU nurse could probably tuck a bottle in her purse if she fudged on the removal of it from the med machine, or someone in surgery taking it while an anesthesiologist has left it carelessly, but other than that, it is not easy to get.

I have been in this exact situation with an extreme asthma attack and was in a coma for 3days. Don't remember a thing. This whole situation with MJ is just completely ridiculous. A really competent MD would never do such a thing in a patient's home. Again just follow the money....

[who_is_it]

I will go back to read those, but in my experience, you go to sleep. There are way too many other better substance out there. I have never heard of it in my 20 years in nursing, including ICU and Post Anesthesia. I don't doubt that it feels good for a few seconds before you fall asleep, but what is the point of that? Let me go check those out. Interesting!

Which substances? How are they called? (Just want to know; in case I once have to get surgery I don't want this propofol anesthesia after all I've read about it now.)

[doradoll]

Thank you for that info.

So, nurses administer diprivan without an anesthesiologist present?

yes, it must be in the ICU

[doradoll]

Which substances? How are they called? (Just want to know; in case I once have to get surgery I don't want this propofol anesthesia after all I've read about it now.)

I meant for abuse and feel good stuff! Like Fentanyl, Morphine and Dilaudid etc. Demerol is very rarely used anymore. It does not break down well in the body. We use it for post operative shakes/trembling, but the docs don't order it for pain anymore, as a rule. At least not where I work and I think that is common.

Oxycodone is the biggest love of all abusing medical persons that I know, sadly.

[CinderL.]

Unless he is a tropical fish enthusiast :laugh::lol:.......

[athina]

Nic99:

Don't forget it's available for Veterinary use. Here's how one layperson obtained it:

Propofol Dependency in a Layperson
(The Journal of the American Society of Anesthesiologists)

http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiology/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2002&issue=02000&article=00039&type=fulltext

//snip//
He had several appointments with this anesthesiologist for propofol treatment. From this time on, he started to inject himself with this drug. Before, he had occasionally self-administered benzodiazepines and morphine, and sometimes, he consumed marijuana. He obtained prescriptions for propofol from various veterinarians whom he told that he was a tropical fish enthusiast and he needed propofol to anesthetize his fish. He had three or four propofol sessions per week, lasting 1-2 h. He would inject 5 ml propofol, 1%, in an antecubital vein, fall into a deep, relaxing sleep for approximately 5-10 min, wake up, and inject another 5 ml of the drug, using up to 60-100 ml propofol, 1%, which he had drawn up in 20-ml syringes, per session.
//snip//

Unreal, isn't it?

WOWWWWWWWWWWW that's just so sad.

[doradoll]

Nic99:

Don't forget it's available for Veterinary use. Here's how one layperson obtained it:

Propofol Dependency in a Layperson
(The Journal of the American Society of Anesthesiologists)

http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiology/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2002&issue=02000&article=00039&type=fulltext

//snip//
He had several appointments with this anesthesiologist for propofol treatment. From this time on, he started to inject himself with this drug. Before, he had occasionally self-administered benzodiazepines and morphine, and sometimes, he consumed marijuana. He obtained prescriptions for propofol from various veterinarians whom he told that he was a tropical fish enthusiast and he needed propofol to anesthetize his fish. He had three or four propofol sessions per week, lasting 1-2 h. He would inject 5 ml propofol, 1%, in an antecubital vein, fall into a deep, relaxing sleep for approximately 5-10 min, wake up, and inject another 5 ml of the drug, using up to 60-100 ml propofol, 1%, which he had drawn up in 20-ml syringes, per session.
//snip//

Unreal, isn't it?

yeah, what's the point to knocking yourself out into sleep.....there is something for everyone, I guess

[VC2]

Thank you for that info.

So, nurses administer diprivan without an anesthesiologist present?

In this case it makes sense because its an emergency situation where the patient can't breathe and the reason for it is to intubate them immediately. They have all the monitoring equipment on the patient already, the nurses in ICU and its step down unit have extra responsibilities where they are allowed to do some things in that unit other nurses are not able to in others.

As she says they don't even have it IN her unit, has to be gotten from main icu or pharmacy.

Also as far as anaesthesiologists using it to abuse, they have all the training and knowledge and know their their body to be able to titrate the dose perfectly and even then it has a high mortality rate. Its a far cry from someone having it to sleep overnight with no medical knowledge or murray giving it with no monitoring equipment on MJ

[ScoobyDoo]

Probably because of the high profile of this and maybe just because they can...


Seems you have a good grasp on American police.
:wink:

[who_is_it]

I meant for abuse and feel good stuff! Like Fentanyl, Morphine and Dilaudid etc. Demerol is very rarely used anymore. It does not break down well in the body. We use it for post operative shakes/trembling, but the docs don't order it for pain anymore, as a rule. At least not where I work and I think that is common.

Oxycodone is the biggest love of all abusing medical persons that I know, sadly.

And which ones do you think are good for surgery (not for abuse)?

[athina]

I have almost no knowledge about medicine or medical terms and I would have considered Dr. Murray as someone "trained" to use it. That's why it's kind of scary because if even medical personnel that abuses it dies... well everything can happen then.

I had a surgery last December and I didn't know about this back then, however, If I had to have surgery today I guess I would still let them use it on me.

[doradoll]

And which ones do you think are good for surgery (not for abuse)?


Diprivan if perfect for surgery. Short acting. Don't worry. This whole other scenario is just beyond bizarre and shouldn't effect legit use of needed medicines. Gone are the days that they just put a rag of chloroform on your face, thank goodness.

I am going to go turn on the news to see if there is anything more on the doc's house. Oh what a tangled web we weave.....

[who_is_it]

Diprivan if perfect for surgery. Short acting. Don't worry. This whole other scenario is just beyond bizarre and shouldn't effect legit use of needed medicines. Gone are the days that they just put a rag of choloform on your face, thank goodness.

I am going to go turn on the news to see if there is anything more on the doc's house. Oh what a tangled web we weave.....

Thank you.

I'm very scared of anesthesia. It makes me think I couldn't wake up anymore. Recently I had surgery for which anesthesia is common without anesthesia.

[athina]

Thank you.

I'm very scared of anesthesia. It makes me think I couldn't wake up anymore. Recently I had surgery for which anesthesia is common without anesthesia.

LOL, when I had my surgery on December I asked the doctor if he could perform the procedure with local anesthesia since I was scared of not waking up too!
He then said that I wasn't going to stand having my nose fractured while being aware and only half sleepy, soooo I thought about it and let him use the full anesthesia.
After the surgery was over I was told that I was to wake up in the operating room but instead I woke up in the recovery room and I swear I remember hearing one of the nurses saying "she took a while longer to wake up". Now I'm all scared again about having to have surgery again one day. :sad:

[VC2]

I have almost no knowledge about medicine or medical terms and I would have considered Dr. Murray as someone "trained" to use it. That's why it's kind of scary because if even medical personnel that abuses it dies... well everything can happen then.

I had a surgery last December and I didn't know about this back then, however, If I had to have surgery today I guess I would still let them use it on me.

yes athina, it is one reason that i strongly believe MJ felt he was being "responsible" with the bat guano idea that he can use it for his severe insomnia, and why i also believe that Murray is far more responsible than MJ is for his death. MJ thought he would be fine with a trained MD..just like in small surgical offices or in hospital, its a doctor. Rather than tell him he was untrained, incompetent or at least that he needed an oximeter, intubation equipment, a defibrillator in the room. Not as if MJ would have refused imo.

I don't think this compares to prescription drug abuse, this is a whole different ball of wax and why LE and the coroner seem to be treating it as a homicide. MD;s who are pill mills can be held responsible as well but the whole reason discussion of Murder2 is happening at all is that this is different, MJ had a good faith reason to believe that a doctor was qualified and would use his medical knowledge to monitor him, just because he was a layman. Ask 9 out 10 people if they believe their doctor and they will say yes. I think the charge will be manslaughter but i am sure the DA is seriously looking at murder2 as well.

imo

[who_is_it]

LOL, when I had my surgery on December I asked the doctor if he could perform the procedure with local anesthesia since I was scared of not waking up too!
He then said that I wasn't going to stand having my nose fractured while being aware and only half sleepy, soooo I thought about it and let him use the full anesthesia.
After the surgery was over I was told that I was to wake up in the operating room but instead I woke up in the recovery room and I swear I remember hearing one of the nurses saying "she took a while longer to wake up". Now I'm all scared again about having to have surgery again one day. :sad:

:lol: "she took a while longer...", that's soooo funny.

[who_is_it]

He called her in April for the diprivan. Someone on his staff called her on 6/21 because he wanted her to come over. He said he felt cold on one side and hot on the other.

Cherilyn Lee's Interview:

While in Florida on June 21, Lee was contacted by a member of Jackson's staff.

"He called and was very frantic and said, `Michael needs to see you right away.' I said, 'What's wrong?' And I could hear Michael in the background ..., 'One side of my body is hot, it's hot, and one side of my body is cold. It's very cold,'" Lee said.

"I said, `Tell him he needs to go the hospital. I don't know what's going on, but he needs to go to the hospital ... right away."

"At that point, I knew that somebody had given him something that hit the central nervous system," she said, adding, "He was in trouble Sunday and he was crying out."

Following Jackson's death, allegations emerged that the 50-year-old King of Pop had been consuming painkillers, sedatives and antidepressants. But Lee said she encountered a man tortured by sleep deprivation and one who expressed opposition to recreational drug use.

"He wasn't looking to get high or feel good and sedated from drugs," she said. "This was a person who was not on drugs. This was a person who was seeking help, desperately, to get some sleep, to get some rest."

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/07/01/20090701jackson-drug.html

Thank you, Athena!

[Details]

LOL, when I had my surgery on December I asked the doctor if he could perform the procedure with local anesthesia since I was scared of not waking up too!
He then said that I wasn't going to stand having my nose fractured while being aware and only half sleepy, soooo I thought about it and let him use the full anesthesia.
After the surgery was over I was told that I was to wake up in the operating room but instead I woke up in the recovery room and I swear I remember hearing one of the nurses saying "she took a while longer to wake up". Now I'm all scared again about having to have surgery again one day. :sad:You're in the hospital - odds of anything going wrong is slim to none. And normally you wake up in the recovery room - that's what it is for. A few extra minutes out is no big deal.

The problem would be when someone uses this stuff at home - it's not safe without a pro calibrating the dose, monitoring you continuously.

[sunstar]

Hi everybody :seeya: Jean Casares is filling in for Nancy Grace tonight and she has an anesthesiologist on the program, complete with an IV stand, Diprivan bottles, and she's showing just how it's administered. She showed an electronic flow adjustment device and also how the flow is adjusted by hand. She explained what monitoring needs to be done and she also said you do not leave the patient unattended.

She's also talking about the search warrant on Dr. M's Las Vegas house & office.

[disneyfreak]

Hi everybody :seeya: Jean Casares is filling in for Nancy Grace tonight and she has an anesthesiologist on the program, complete with an IV stand, Diprivan bottles, and she's showing just how it's administered. She showed an electronic flow adjustment device and also how the flow is adjusted by hand. She explained what monitoring needs to be done and she also said you do not leave the patient unattended.

She's also talking about the search warrant on Dr. M's Las Vegas house & office.

Thanks Sunstar. I generally avoid Nancy Grace, but with Jean on explaining this I will try to catch it tonight in rerun.

[Mamie]

Thank you.

I'm very scared of anesthesia. It makes me think I couldn't wake up anymore. Recently I had surgery for which anesthesia is common without anesthesia.

You and me both, scared of anesthesia and for the same reasons! I may need to have surgery on my hip and I'm not looking forward to it at all, first because of the anesthesia and not waking up and then the pain I'm going to be in if I do wake up!

[Mamie]

Hi everybody :seeya: Jean Casares is filling in for Nancy Grace tonight and she has an anesthesiologist on the program, complete with an IV stand, Diprivan bottles, and she's showing just how it's administered. She showed an electronic flow adjustment device and also how the flow is adjusted by hand. She explained what monitoring needs to be done and she also said you do not leave the patient unattended.
She's also talking about the search warrant on Dr. M's Las Vegas house & office.

And I think that's what happened, the good doctor left the patient, by either getting sidetracked and leaving the room or he fell asleep. I thought all along he had fallen asleep. It will be interesting to get hold of his phone records. That may tell approximately the time of death----like when he panicked and had those people retrieve items from his storage unit. JMO

[sunstar]

Thanks Sunstar. I generally avoid Nancy Grace, but with Jean on explaining this I will try to catch it tonight in rerun.

It was just interesting to me with somebody who is actually trained in anesthesia explaining everything. She also went into detail about EKG monitoring, having O2 available, etc. ~ essentially everything NOT at the house and that it should NEVER be administered outside a medical setting or by someone who isn't trained. :sad: MOO

[sunstar]

And I think that's what happened, the good doctor left the patient, by either getting sidetracked and leaving the room or he fell asleep. I thought all along he had fallen asleep. It will be interesting to get hold of his phone records. That may tell approximately the time of death----like when he panicked and had those people retrieve items from his storage unit. JMO

Through his lawyer, he supposedly said he returned to the room and found MJ unresponsive. I think that part is true, but what is left out is that MJ had been hooked up to an IV of diprivan. I'd also be surprised if he really did discover MJ only 30 min. before calling 911 since I do think some "house cleaning" was going on. MOO

[Mamie]

Through his lawyer, he supposedly said he returned to the room and found MJ unresponsive. I think that part is true, but what is left out is that MJ had been hooked up to an IV of diprivan. I'd also be surprised if he really did discover MJ only 30 min. before calling 911 since I do think some "house cleaning" was going on. MOO

Exactly my point about the house cleaning and the cell phone calls to Texas. I don't doubt that he returned and found MJ unresponsive, but that's the problem, isn't it? He wasn't supposed to return-----he wasn't supposed to leave him at all. Atleast I think that's the way diprivan is supposed to be administered. JMO

[who_is_it]

And I think that's what happened, the good doctor left the patient, by either getting sidetracked and leaving the room or he fell asleep. I thought all along he had fallen asleep. It will be interesting to get hold of his phone records. That may tell approximately the time of death----like when he panicked and had those people retrieve items from his storage unit. JMO

That is what was reported on TMZ.

Imagine a doctor would fall asleep in a surgery room... Murray had no oximeter (reckless) and no defribrillator (reckless)... but that he probably feel asleep is the MOST alarming imo.

[who_is_it]

Through his lawyer, he supposedly said he returned to the room and found MJ unresponsive. I think that part is true, but what is left out is that MJ had been hooked up to an IV of diprivan. I'd also be surprised if he really did discover MJ only 30 min. before calling 911 since I do think some "house cleaning" was going on. MOO

I mean, it's also a difference if he just left to go to the bathroom or fell asleep....

[sunstar]

Exactly my point about the house cleaning and the cell phone calls to Texas. I don't doubt that he returned and found MJ unresponsive, but that's the problem, isn't it? He wasn't supposed to return-----he wasn't supposed to leave him at all. Atleast I think that's the way diprivan is supposed to be administered. JMO

No he wasn't supposed to leave the patient alone ~ or for that matter, shouldn't have been giving him anesthesia to begin with. MOO

[sunstar]

I mean, it's also a difference if he just left to go to the bathroom or fell asleep....

According to the anesthesiologist who was on NG's show tonight, he just shouldn't have been giving it to him period. The patient should have been on a heart and oxygen monitor before starting the IV and never left unattended. The show is on again right now and she's explaining it. :smile: MOO

[disneyfreak]

That is what was reported on TMZ.

Imagine a doctor would fall asleep in a surgery room... Murray had no oximeter (reckless) and no defribrillator (reckless)... but that he probably feel asleep is the MOST alarming imo.
I know. When I had this drug in outpatient surgery there was always a RN in the room just in case the doctor had a heart attack or became otherwise incapacitated while I was under. This whole thing makes me sick as I know how preventable it is.

[sunstar]

That is what was reported on TMZ.

Imagine a doctor would fall asleep in a surgery room... Murray had no oximeter (reckless) and no defribrillator (reckless)... but that he probably feel asleep is the MOST alarming imo.

Isn't reckless disregard of human life by administering a potentially lethal substance into someone's body more like 2nd degree murder? I've heard even one legal expert on tv say 1st degree, but I think that's stretching it a little since that would mean premeditated. :shrug: MOO

[tiptop]

Isn't reckless disregard of human life by administering a potentially lethal substance into someone's body more like 2nd degree murder? I've heard even one legal expert on tv say 1st degree, but I think that's stretching it a little since that would mean premeditated. :shrug: MOO

It's all confusing and subject to interpretation I suppose by a jury. Since Diprivan isnt a controlled substance (right?) , would it be manslaughter? Did the doc intentionally kill him without prior planning, (which would be Murder2 if I understand correctly)? I dont think so, but I suppose it all remains to be seen. And how the attorneys can spin it. IMO

[sunstar]

It's all confusing and subject to interpretation I suppose by a jury. Since Diprivan isnt a controlled substance (right?) , would it be manslaughter? Did the doc intentionally kill him without prior planning, (which would be Murder2 if I understand correctly)? I dont think so, but I suppose it all remains to be seen. And how the attorneys can spin it. IMO

That's just what I'm trying to figure out after hearing different opinions on what he could be charged with, and I guess depending on what the California laws are for the different charges. Being he's a doctor who should know the consequences of improperly administering anesthesia, I'd think the charge could be higher than if he weren't a doctor. In other words, held to a higher standard? :shrug: I guess we'll just have to see how it all plays out, and most important what's in the coroners report. MOO

[disneyfreak]

Hi sunstar!

We've been discussing California laws, but here's what I'm wondering. If the DEA is involved, will that mean a Federal indictment, which involves different standards? Is that a stupid question? :confused:

Its not stupid at all. The DEA often works with local law enforcement. In these cases the crimes are prosecuted on the local level. I've seen that with drug busts in my state. Often in Northern California, there are illegal marijuana fields that can only be discovered by the equipment that the DEA owns. Local law enforcement doesn't have the helicopters etc. Yet the growers are often prosecuted in the county court houses.

[sunstar]

Its not stupid at all. The DEA often works with local law enforcement. In these cases the crimes are prosecuted on the local level. I've seen that with drug busts in my state. Often in Northern California, there are illegal marijuana fields that can only be discovered by the equipment that the DEA owns. Local law enforcement doesn't have the helicopters etc. Yet the growers are often prosecuted in the county court houses.

Thanks so much ~ I too was curious about their involvement. :smile:


Have a good night everybody! :seeya:

[Mamie]

That is what was reported on TMZ.

Imagine a doctor would fall asleep in a surgery room... Murray had no oximeter (reckless) and no defribrillator (reckless)... but that he probably feel asleep is the MOST alarming imo.

It was a non-conforming atmosphere around there so I think he felt relaxed. And when someone else is sleeping, doctor or not, in a relaxed atmosphere, I imagine it would be easy to fall asleep. Not saying it's right by any means. I'll bet he wishes over and over he could take those hours back. Besides, this doctor has other questionable attributes, in my opinion, so the quality of doctor he is would first need to be established----atleast in my book.

You had the perfect word------reckless. He was completely reckless, if for no other reason than administering it at all to anyone. JMO

[sunstar]

I think, based on what we know so far, that it could rise to the level of murder 2. Even though it wasn't planned, and was unintentional, the conduct of the doctor was so reckless, and as you say.. disregard for life. Manslaughter is similiar, except that it carries a much lower penalty. I think its like maybe 2-3 years, verses 15 to life for 2nd. I wouldn't be surprised if they charged 2nd degree, and he pleads down to manslaughter

imo...of course.

I agree with you. I watched JVM's "Issues" earlier tonight and they were discussing the possibility that Dr. M "overslept" that morning ~ based on the article released today where the chef says she usually saw him carrying oxygen tanks downstairs in the morning but that morning (6/25) she didn't. It's almost comical that the word "overslept" is used when the Dr. shouldn't have been asleep at all if he was administering an IV anesthetic to MJ. MOO

link to article being discussed http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32203425/ns/entertainment-music/

[sunstar]

In the AP article I read...it states that the chef says the doctor came in the mornings between 9 & 9;30.....

So...he hooked up MJ....left....and came back in the morning?

The chef says she understood he spent the night???

I'm confused.

The article at msnbc.com says

"Chase said Tuesday that she had gotten used to seeing Murray coming and going from the mansion. The doctor usually arrived about 9 or 9:30 p.m. and would go upstairs to Jackson's room, and she said she would not see him again before she left — sometimes late in the evening — but understood he was staying the night."

It also said she'd see him coming downstairs in the mornings with oxygen tanks, except the morning of 6/25. So it sounds like he was spending the night, administering whatever to MJ. MOO