7/20 to 7/31 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

Hope4Tori

07-20-2009, 08:49 AM

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836

"The Ontario Provincial Police have confirmed this morning that they have found the remains of a body near Mount Forest, but are not saying whether the suspicious remains belong to 8-year-old Victoria Stafford.

OPP Sgt. David Recktor told the Star that investigators recovered the "suspicious" remains yesterday afternoon near 6th line in Arthur Township, about 40 kilometres northwest of Guelph.

The remains were found on private property in a farm field.

"This was part of the search ongoing since Tori was abducted, but whether or not in fact the remains belong to Victoria Stafford still remains to be seen," Sgt. David Rektor said.

Police have sealed off the area where the remains were found, and are treating the site as a crime scene. Once the remains have been secured, they can be transported to Toronto for a forensic examination, police say.

"Everybody's hopeful that we find remains of Victoria Stafford," said Rektor.

"Investigators have made it clear our goal at this point is to reunite Victoria with her family, so that they can have some closures, so yes, we're hopeful," he said, adding he has no idea how long it would take to identify whether the remains belong to Stafford.

Victoria Stafford was last seen in Woodstock in early April on her way home from school. The young girl, whose disappearance captured international headlines, would have turned 9-years-old last week.

Terri-Lynne McClintic, 19, and Michael Rafferty, 28, were arrested May 19 and have been charged with murder in connection with Tori's disappearance."

Let's hope the remains will be those of Tori and that she will finally be able to be laid to rest and the families will have some semblance of peace for at least knowing she was found. :wub::wub::wub:

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 09:54 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...s-body452.html

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...TorontoNewHome

The remains were discovered Sunday afternoon. Mount Forest is located west of Orangeville and just north of the Wellington and Guelph regions.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836

OPP Sgt. David Recktor told the Star that investigators recovered the "suspicious" remains yesterday afternoon near 6th line in Arthur Township, about 40 kilometres northwest of Guelph.

The remains were found on private property in a farm field.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/can...jKH5m2B2QFx6SQ

Rektor says the remains were in a "relatively new area of the search" for the eight-year-old girl, who went missing in Woodstock, Ont., on April 8.

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 10:04 AM

As you can see, Mount Forest was already a location affiliated somewhat with this investigation.

I am waiting for confirmation of the exact spot, and will update the map momentarily.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100279953068513078256.00046ba276b2b212badab&z=8

Jester

07-20-2009, 10:06 AM

No one is making any speculations, the remains will be secured (no one is objecting the use of the term "remains"), and a determination will be made ... but word is that the remains of an 8 year old child were found outside of Guelph.

How does that connect to Rafferty?

justmy2cents

07-20-2009, 11:13 AM

just watching CP24 and they stated that the police officer who located the remains was driving and looking for landmarks that TLM had disclosed earlier and found the remains that they believe to be of Tori. A press conference at around 12 or 1 pm may occur.

The remains were located only 15 mins further then where they were originally searching with TLM.

side note: It is really difficult for me to be typing "remains found, child", It is really sh*&y because this may really solidify that she is in fact gone, something deep down I was hoping to not be true. (i think or at least hope we all were hoping by some grace of god this child was alive).

Praying for closure for the Stafford and MacDonald families:crying:

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 12:04 PM

The Map is now updated to reflect where the remains have been found.

Near Sally Side Rd. and 2. This comes from a local who knows exactly where they are.

Almost at the EXACT location of our 50 minute radius perimeter map.

kelloggirl

07-20-2009, 01:04 PM

OPP Believe Body That of Tori Stafford (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/668836)

For those that are loosely following the case, might want to know the latest developments:

Ontario Provincial Police commissioner Julian Fantino said this morning that the human remains found near Mount Forest yesterday are likely those of Victoria Stafford.

"We have some very strong leads that cause us to believe that we have, in fact, located the human remains of Tori Stafford," Fantino told CP24.

"As sad as this is," added Fantino, "we're hopeful this will bring some closure to a very tragic and dastardly crime."

The OPP confirmed this morning that they found the remains of a child near Mount Forest in a heavily wooded area along a country lane off Concession No. 6, about six kilometres southwest of Mount Forest.

"It's a wooded area, there are tall trees, a lot of long grass and rocks," OPP Sgt. David Rektor said this morning as he stood beside yellow police tape, which sealed off the lane.

He said it's an area which a stranger would be unlikely to stumble upon.

Situation being discussed in Tori Stafford's current forum:
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=355623

Press conference expected at 1:30pm EST.

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 01:24 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...s-body452.html

About 10 investigators are conducting a search of the area where the remains were found.

Human remains found in southwestern Ontario are almost certainly those of Victoria Stafford, a Woodstock schoolgirl who has been missing for three months, according to the head of the provincial police.

"We have some very strong leads that cause us to believe that we have in fact located the human remains of [Victoria] Tori Stafford," Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino said.

The officer who headed the investigation into Victoria's abduction and murder said the discovery was probably the end of the search.

"At this point we are hopeful that we will be able to honour the life of Victoria Stafford by reuniting her with her loved ones in Woodstock," said Det.-Insp. Bill Renton in a news release.

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 01:26 PM

A black funeral hearse and a forensics truck was seen driving past the police blockade and onto the dirt road where the remains are located. The body was loaded into the hearse. An OPP officer saluted as the hearse drove away.

Const. Mark Cloes said officers will remain on the scene until they are relieved by crime scene investigators.

Cloes said the remains were found off of a dirt road that is well used by the Mennonite community. A detective who is part of the Stafford homicide investigative team was out for a drive when he noticed landmarks familiar to what the suspect described and decided to take a closer look.

"The area fit the profile of what we were looking for," Cloes said. "He went up the laneway and found the remains."

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...TorontoNewHome

Gugug

07-20-2009, 01:28 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/20/opp-remains-body452.html?ref=rss

Remains likely Victoria Stafford's: OPP chief
Last Updated: Monday, July 20, 2009 | 12:05 PM ET Comments183Recommend179
CBC News
Yellow police tape blocks access to a rural area near Mount Forest, Ont., where police have found human remains.Yellow police tape blocks access to a rural area near Mount Forest, Ont., where police have found human remains. (Lorenda Reddekopp/CBC)

Human remains found in southwestern Ontario are almost certainly those of Victoria Stafford, a Woodstock schoolgirl who has been missing for three months, according to the head of the provincial police.

Victoria, who was eight, disappeared on April 8 while on her way home from school in Woodstock. Until now, a massive search effort had failed to find a trace of the girl, even after two people were charged with kidnapping and first-degree murder in the case.

On Monday, the Ontario Provincial Police confirmed that remains had been found Sunday near Mount Forest, about 95 kilometres north of Woodstock.

"We have some very strong leads that cause us to believe that we have in fact located the human remains of [Victoria] Tori Stafford," Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino said.

The officer who headed the investigation into Victoria's abduction and murder said the discovery was probably the end of the search.

"At this point we are hopeful that we will be able to honour the life of Victoria Stafford by reuniting her with her loved ones in Woodstock," said Det.-Insp. Bill Renton in a news release.
The remains were found Sunday near Mount Forest, about 95 kilometres north of Woodstock. Victoria Stafford disappeared on April 8 while on her way home from school in Woodstock.The remains were found Sunday near Mount Forest, about 95 kilometres north of Woodstock. Victoria Stafford disappeared on April 8 while on her way home from school in Woodstock.

Early Monday, OPP investigators confirmed the discovery of remains but said they couldn't confirm whether they belong to the Grade 3 student.

OPP Sgt. Dave Rektor told CBC News that investigators found the remains Sunday in an area about 40 kilometres northwest of Guelph.

Rektor said the remains were southeast of Mount Forest in a "relatively new area of the search" for the girl.

Fantino said more forensic work needed to be done to confirm the identity. But, he said, he was hopeful the find would bring some closure.

About 10 investigators are conducting a search of the area where the remains were found.

After they have completed their search, the remains will be transported to Toronto for forensic examination.

Two Woodstock residents, Michael Rafferty and Terri-Lynne McClintic, are charged with kidnapping and first-degree murder in Victoria's disappearance.

Their trials are not expected to begin until next year. END

Pretty strong language: "almost certainly".

KatieLady

07-20-2009, 01:31 PM

thank you Kellog

:rose:

5boxersmom

07-20-2009, 02:59 PM

RIP :rose:

doctor_J

07-20-2009, 07:33 PM

I don't think they'll ever get out. No way. Unless there was a deal with TLM and she could get the same deal Karla got.

They will be charged with first degree murder with no possibility of parole for 25 years. These 2 monsters will never see freedom again. I will bet my last looney.

I sure hope you're right but how? If they serve every day, with no parole, TLM will be out at 43. She'll still have a whole life ahead. And Rafferty is just 20 something so he can easily do 25 and get out fairly young. Could they be held as dangerous offenders with no prior felonies?

Gugug

07-20-2009, 07:43 PM

I sure hope you're right but how? If they serve every day, with no parole, TLM will be out at 43. She'll still have a whole life ahead. And Rafferty is just 20 something so he can easily do 25 and get out fairly young. Could they be held as dangerous offenders with no prior felonies?

It is not impossible for someone to be declared a dangerous offender with no prior record. However, it would be an exception to the norm.

VC2

07-20-2009, 07:44 PM

I sure hope you're right but how? If they serve every day, with no parole, TLM will be out at 43. She'll still have a whole life ahead. And Rafferty is just 20 something so he can easily do 25 and get out fairly young. Could they be held as dangerous offenders with no prior felonies?

the actual sentence is life with no possibility of parole for 25 years. If they serve every day with no parole they will be there for life.

It doesn't always follow they get parole the first or second or 3rd time.

imo

Gugug

07-20-2009, 07:46 PM

Knowing how cagey LE has been in the past about this case, it could mean TLM or MR. LE would not want to jeopardize the case by naming names before evidence is given in court.

However, could there be more suspects, other than the two accused who are currently in jail? I don't think it's safe to assume anything.

doctor_J

07-20-2009, 08:03 PM

the actual sentence is life with no possibility of parole for 25 years. If they serve every day with no parole they will be there for life.

It doesn't always follow they get parole the first or second or 3rd time.

imo

OK, but I've been told on this board by Canadians that tha maximum they can serve, even with many murders, like the pig man, is 25 years. That life meant a maximum of 25 years. Apparently, it is unclear to many, even in Canada.

Gugug

07-20-2009, 08:19 PM

OK, but I've been told on this board by Canadians that tha maximum they can serve, even with many murders, like the pig man, is 25 years. That life meant a maximum of 25 years. Apparently, it is unclear to many, even in Canada.

Don't forget that the defendants would get double credit for time in jail before a guilty verdict. So, if they spent one year in jail, then were found guilty, they would already have two years taken off the length of their sentence.

Then there's the Faint Hope clause, which really isn't so faint. People serving "life" sentences can get out for "humanitarian" reasons.

We've discussed it before, and life does not mean life when it comes to Canadian prison sentences. There seem to be a million and one ways to get out early, even before the mandated minimum 25 years. That is the reality of it.

n/t

07-20-2009, 08:28 PM

I'm not a lawyer but I believe if the prosecution proves the crime was of a sexual nature involving a minor, it qualifies for dangerous offenders act. I think that's why it was hinted at by LE early on in the investigation.

I wonder if they will move the trial.

VC2

07-20-2009, 08:39 PM

Don't forget that the defendants would get double credit for time in jail before a guilty verdict. So, if they spent one year in jail, then were found guilty, they would already have two years taken off the length of their sentence.

Then there's the Faint Hope clause, which really isn't so faint. People serving "life" sentences can get out for "humanitarian" reasons.

We've discussed it before, and life does not mean life when it comes to Canadian prison sentences. There seem to be a million and one ways to get out early, even before the mandated minimum 25 years. That is the reality of it.

i dont think the time served credit is the issue here.

Sure sometimes ppl are let out if they have a terminal brain cancer or other illnesses, partly on humanitarian grounds and partly because it costs alot more to treat them and transport them for treatment under the prison system for a disease like that.

First degree murder is murder which is planned and deliberate. Sentencing for first degree murder is very simple. We do not have capital punishment in Canada so a person who is convicted of first degree murder is sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole for 25 years. The calculation for those 25 years begins when the person has been arrested and placed in custody, not when they are convicted and found guilty. There is no discretion on the part of the judge; that is the minimum sentence and it is automatic.
http://info.lawyershop.ca/criminal/index.php/tags/first-degree-murder/

What is First (1st) Degree Murder in Canada?

First degree murder carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment without eligibility for parole for 25 years. First degree murder means that you either premeditated or were in the act of another crime when you murdered someone (simply definition). However if you are convicted of 1st degree murder in Canada, the judge has no choice in the sentencing as far as time goes, he/she would have to impose a sentence of life imprisonment without the eligibility for parole for 25 years. There is very little choice in this sentence once someone is found guilty of this crime. The National Parole Board can release them after serving 25 years if they meet the requirements. This is totally up to the NPB and is in no way automatic as some believed. If the offender is released he/she will be on parole for the rest of their life and it can be revoked if they give reason or just cause by the parole board. Some people convicted of a murder or many murders like serial killers may never be out of prison again. I cannot stress this point enough, once your parole eligibility date comes to pass, it is not like you just walk out of prison and you go back to normal life. That will never happen for anyone serving a life sentence.
http://www.conshelpingcons.com/myths-crime-punishment-canada.html

yes Dr. J even a lot of canadians assume the 25 years is the sentence but it is not, and i am not sure why there is a misunderstanding, the words are clear. A MINIMUM of 25 years before parole eligibility. Life is the sentence and they only get paroled IF the parole board oks it which they often don't. Just like in the states, someone might be eligible but they often are denied.

The most heinous crimes are the ones where its unlikely they will ever get out.

jmo

Lollilock

07-20-2009, 09:53 PM

CP24's Sue Sgambati just had a live interview with Det. Sgt. Jim Smith, who is a Criminal Profiler with the Behavioural Sciences division of the OPP that found the remains.

1. The reason he was in the area, is that they were in the process of expanding the search area, and he was assessing how much further and the best areas to move out the search.

2. In the last week or so, information had come to light to expand the area. They were very confident the areas that they had searched so far had been done thoroughly.

3. Based on a "hunch" if you want to call it that, he found items and the things he saw led him further in. He was "startled" with what he found.

4. He said "we moved through the steps" to process the scene, and notified forensic ID unit to take over the scene. (* note he said "we" several times)

5. The investigative teams have been following 1,000's of hunches over the last 2 months. He simply looked somewhere that interested him.

6. Goal is to help prosecution and the crown to move the case forward against the 2 accused.

7. The role that TLM played, was in addition to other information that came together to give them a picture of what to look for.

8. He would not say what the new information was.

9. He has been helping the teams understand the motivations behing the crimes, and to help them make decisions on how to move the investigation forward.

doctor_J

07-20-2009, 09:54 PM

Thanks VC, that's a very reassuring post. That issue has worried me during this entire case, because of earlier discussions on this board. Knowing the situation with Karla Homolka made me inclined to believe sentencing leaned toward the very lenient. There are certainly cases in the US, too, where killers have gotten off very lightly. I will sleep better knowing these scum will probably never see sunlight again.

I surely hope this is Tori. I've hoped and prayed for her to be found and came to terms that she was dead long ago. It should eliminate any chance of a deal for MR. IT is also likely to provide some essential forensic evidence. Not to mention, the relief it has to offer the family.

I hope those perverts have heard the news and are kept in suspense for days before having it confirmed.

doctor_J

07-20-2009, 10:12 PM

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am intending this for my own personal enlightenment, but HOW is it you are so sure about this???

You cannot know what will happen in that courtroom, even based on experience you cannot know.

Charlie, I think you got the wrong impression. That post was based on days of discussion we had much earlier in this case. We went over and over the maximum sentence available if they are found guilty.

ETA -- It was the Canadians that convinced me they could only serve 25 years.

VC2

07-20-2009, 11:30 PM

Charlie, I think you got the wrong impression. That post was based on days of discussion we had much earlier in this case. We went over and over the maximum sentence available if they are found guilty.

ETA -- It was the Canadians that convinced me they could only serve 25 years.

what happens is canadians (and americans) hear the words "25 years" and assume that is when they get out. They forget the actual sentence is life and the whole point of the 25 years is they have no chance to even ask for parole before that. We do have a system more geared to rehabilitation than the US one but it has served us pretty well. That said, i find it rather frustrating that so many in our country do not realize that 25 years is only the earliest date they can ask for parole and that it is not mandatory or even likely in cases like this.

Clifford Olsen, Paul Bernardo and others will never get out. Karla was a whole different situation, i dont want to get into it here but she was not charged with first degree murder so she cant be used as an example.

It is extremely unlikely the parole board would let these two out in 25 years, this crime is horrendous and will be treated like the other worst of the worsts.

jmo

Gugug

07-21-2009, 01:52 AM

Gugug

07-21-2009, 01:54 AM

BJames

07-21-2009, 09:12 AM

Good morning to all :smile:

I am about 45 minutes away from where the remains have been found, and a close friend of mine lives just down the (rural) road from the site.
Word on the street (rural road) is that this is indeed Victoria Stafford, apparently what she was found with (clothing..etc.) all points to a positive identification...and there have been no other missing children in the area.
I have been meant to go for a visit with my friend and her children this morning...when I spoke with her last night she said that there have been less LE present as the day wore on...of course the remains have been removed, but they are probably still processing the crime scene.
It's a pretty difficult situation to relay to young children, hers are 7, 10, 13 and 15...and they have lived a fairly 'sheltered' life.
What a very sad situation...

Just my opinion of course...

n/t

07-21-2009, 09:17 AM

n/t

07-21-2009, 10:39 AM

Victoria Stafford's remains identified

The remains found in an isolated, wooded area of southern Ontario on the weekend are those of schoolgirl Victoria Stafford, police confirmed Tuesday.

Forensic scientists in Toronto "positively identified the remains as those of Victoria Stafford," said Det.-Insp. Bill Renton, who headed the joint OPP-Oxford Community Police task force.

:rose:

RIP sweet Tori

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/21/stafford-murder021.html

north-eh

07-21-2009, 11:19 AM

Good morning n/t. It's a sad day but finally a day we were expecting.
Tori's journey on this earth is over and a new one is beginning. I feel so sad this morning for the family and hope this will give them the closure they so rightly deserve.

The next step now is getting justice for this beautiful innocent child, THAT I will be around to see, I hope.

Here is s bit more news to go along.
Now, it's up to forensics
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1665536&auth=Krista
N

VC2

07-21-2009, 12:41 PM

I'm afraid they'll use a "not criminally responsible" plea due to drug use. The Greyhound bus killer, a paranoid schizophrenic, could be free next year.

Every psychiatrist including the prosecution/crowns agree that he was not criminally responsible he was insane and still is. I totally agreed with that decision.

Of course he "could" be free next year, but extremely doubtful and i would say next to impossible. He is not staying in a luxury hospital that has never seen the criminally insane before.

There was a man who killed his wife back in the 80's, then ate part of her or drank her blood, keeping her dead in the bathtub. very very sick man. He was found not criminally responsible and is still in the hospital. I believe it was in winnipeg and they did a show on him, it was the eeriest thing, as he talked about "like a cat with a mouse" and this almost proud of himself look. It was clear he was still insane and always would be imo. The show was years afterwards.

In fact from the facts of the greyhound murder i suspect he would have been charged with murder 2 and am far more comfortable with him in a hospital for the insane. He will stay there much longer than if he was tried and sent to prison. IMO

no it doesn't always work right but most of the time it does.

n/t

07-21-2009, 12:50 PM

I wonder how MR feels this morning knowing they found her remains? Probably not as confident as he would have been if she was never found. :angry:

I just hope there was no deal made with TLM.

n/t

07-21-2009, 12:59 PM

Anybody think the trial will be moved? I don't think it'll be held in Woodstock.

ellegna

07-21-2009, 01:56 PM

Anybody think the trial will be moved? I don't think it'll be held in Woodstock.

If not in Woodstock most likely will be Guelph

Jester

07-21-2009, 01:59 PM

OK, but I've been told on this board by Canadians that tha maximum they can serve, even with many murders, like the pig man, is 25 years. That life meant a maximum of 25 years. Apparently, it is unclear to many, even in Canada.

I think first degree conviction means 25 years to life in jail, with the first parole eligibility to be after 25 years. Second degree means 25 years to life with parole eligibility set between 10-25 years.

If they are convicted of first degree murder, they would be given 25 year sentences before they could apply for parole. Their eligibility would depend on their behavior in jail, and the likelihood that they would re-offend.

It is not a maximum of 25 years, it is 25 years before they can be considered for release.

juliekan

07-21-2009, 02:09 PM

Jester

07-21-2009, 02:20 PM

Remains identified as missing girl Tori Stafford

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Remains+identified+missing+girl+Tori+Stafford/1811968/story.html

The girl's mother, Tara McDonald, was too distraught to speak to the media. A note left outside her home Tuesday said she needed more time before she could address the public

Don't know if this has been posted, but here are pictures
http://www.calgaryherald.com/Updated+Gallery+Tori+Stafford+abduction/1812397/story.html

kOOkie1

07-21-2009, 02:23 PM

The next time anyone tells me that the human race has 'evolved' I'm going to start reciting the names of these missing children.

'People who commit these crimes are worse than animals.

Just passing thru after seeing the new info..
Amen to that Charlie..that's perfect and I so much agree with you!! just senseless these crimes against children and I will never ever get it :(
My heart is breaking for the Stafford Family..her brother who was so moving at the Memorial..I cant help but to think of his lil heart today.
I hope it brings closure, somewhat..for them all:wub:

Jester

07-21-2009, 02:26 PM

Some video of the area. The grass is so tall that is seems like a bit of a miracle that she was found.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Video+Remains+found/1812400/story.html?tab=VID

BevAnn

07-21-2009, 03:31 PM

OOH!! I am so upset!! :crying: I didn't get on here much yesterday - darn work cutting into my web browsing time! But, I came on today and saw this and it just broke my heart. I mean, we all knew it was coming...but still.

I hope Tori's little body will tell her story, so LE can go all out after those 2 terrible people who did this to her!!

Tori, RIP sweety :rose: and dear Lord, please watch over her family and friends, esp that sweet brother of hers.

museumgirl

07-21-2009, 03:57 PM

I'm glad this beautiful little girl can be laid to rest properly, the idea of a child just rotting in some isolated area without the family being able to visit or even feel that big of closure is horrifying to me.

I am so glad to see her father taking steps to make the world a better place so that his daughter did not die in vain....

I too, hope that her body tells the story and justice is served.

mrsmcgoo

07-21-2009, 04:15 PM

Some video of the area. The grass is so tall that is seems like a bit of a miracle that she was found.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Video+Remains+found/1812400/story.html?tab=VID

Yes, a miracle for sure. Sometimes I wonder if a higher power is guiding searchers when missing bodies are found.

Thankfully Tori will be laid to rest and her family can have peace knowing she is close by.

:rose:

Gugug

07-21-2009, 05:52 PM

Did I read this correctly? Did you say you WITNESSED a murder?

Yes, as a diner in a restaurant.

moonlite

07-21-2009, 06:23 PM

what happens is canadians (and americans) hear the words "25 years" and assume that is when they get out. They forget the actual sentence is life and the whole point of the 25 years is they have no chance to even ask for parole before that. We do have a system more geared to rehabilitation than the US one but it has served us pretty well. That said, i find it rather frustrating that so many in our country do not realize that 25 years is only the earliest date they can ask for parole and that it is not mandatory or even likely in cases like this.

Clifford Olsen, Paul Bernardo and others will never get out. Karla was a whole different situation, i dont want to get into it here but she was not charged with first degree murder so she cant be used as an example.

It is extremely unlikely the parole board would let these two out in 25 years, this crime is horrendous and will be treated like the other worst of the worsts.

jmo

Greetings"
VC2"

Thanks for the clarification. I have to admit I was confused about the 25 yrs to life. I can only hope your right and TLM, MR, never see the light of day.
I'm wondering what the defense strategy will be?

What angles can a Canadian Defense Lawyer use? I'm wondering if it is like here in USA? I mean sometimes it does appear that in USA courts almost anything goes; from grandstanding'etc.

Moonlite

Gugug

07-21-2009, 06:35 PM

i dont think the time served credit is the issue here.

Sure sometimes ppl are let out if they have a terminal brain cancer or other illnesses, partly on humanitarian grounds and partly because it costs alot more to treat them and transport them for treatment under the prison system for a disease like that.

http://info.lawyershop.ca/criminal/index.php/tags/first-degree-murder/

http://www.conshelpingcons.com/myths-crime-punishment-canada.html

yes Dr. J even a lot of canadians assume the 25 years is the sentence but it is not, and i am not sure why there is a misunderstanding, the words are clear. A MINIMUM of 25 years before parole eligibility. Life is the sentence and they only get paroled IF the parole board oks it which they often don't. Just like in the states, someone might be eligible but they often are denied.

The most heinous crimes are the ones where its unlikely they will ever get out.

jmo

i dont think the time served credit is the issue here.

Sure sometimes ppl are let out if they have a terminal brain cancer or other illnesses, partly on humanitarian grounds and partly because it costs alot more to treat them and transport them for treatment under the prison system for a disease like that.

http://info.lawyershop.ca/criminal/index.php/tags/first-degree-murder/

http://www.conshelpingcons.com/myths-crime-punishment-canada.html

yes Dr. J even a lot of canadians assume the 25 years is the sentence but it is not, and i am not sure why there is a misunderstanding, the words are clear. A MINIMUM of 25 years before parole eligibility. Life is the sentence and they only get paroled IF the parole board oks it which they often don't. Just like in the states, someone might be eligible but they often are denied.

The most heinous crimes are the ones where its unlikely they will ever get out.

jmo

I think the murder of Shannon Morrissette was heinous, but her killer applied, and was considered for escorted day passes. When rejected, he was eligible to reapply at a future date.

The Morrissette family was left paying the bill for their air and hotel expenses in order to attend the parole hearing. Their deaf and mute five-year-old daughter's killer had a long criminal history.

As to the previous question of compassionate grounds for the Faint Hope Clause (not your question), in the case of the killer I had the misfortune to see in action, he applied on the grounds that he was not longer a threat, due to his age (60s), and wanted to spend his elderly years with his family. He got out. No tumor required. No minimum 25 years before eligibility for parole. So much for his life sentence for first-degree murder. I did not find this acceptable.

And the system doesn't work if it releases Tim McLean's murderer next year, which is entirely within the realm of legal possibility. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible. He will not have a criminal record when he is released:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090304/bus_verdict_090305/20090305/

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/121312/

This one may slip under the radar, so that if and when Li is released, the Manitoba Criminal Review Board may not make it public. The burden is now on the family to monitor this and, as they did this time around, do their best to make the information public.

It's not so long ago that families were not even made aware of court dates and parole board appearances for the murderers of their loved ones. They used to find out by reading it in the newspaper. As for those not criminally responsible, keeping things secret is what bothers these families a great deal. Fortunately, the entire country does not take the same view as Manitoba.

I must say that having a personal experience, and monitoring the developments of that case over a couple of decades, has changed my point of view about how victims and survivors are treated and how they view the legal process. There is a great deal of re-victimization in the legal process, from plea bargaining forward. I did not know the victim, and I was not physically injured. However, my advice to the families would be to keep Tori high profile in order to ensure that those who took her life do not get off easily. I do believe that keeping her name in the media when parole hearings come up, etc., will ensure a certain amount of public accountability. So it will never be over for the families.

Justice is a subjective thing.

I think sex murders and sex offences belong in a special category, particularly those involving children. Wish as we might, sexual predators and pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. That's my view, and I'm sticking with it.

Gugug

07-21-2009, 06:39 PM

Yes, a miracle for sure. Sometimes I wonder if a higher power is guiding searchers when missing bodies are found.

Thankfully Tori will be laid to rest and her family can have peace knowing she is close by.

:rose:

A lot of people have been praying for this. But let's not forget that it was dogged determination and perseverance by LE, with the possible help of a tipster (who knows: a relative of a suspect?) doing the right thing, that made this happen. Sometimes miracles have a little help.

Jester

07-21-2009, 06:52 PM

A lot of people have been praying for this. But let's not forget that it was dogged determination and perseverance by LE, with the possible help of a tipster (who knows: a relative of a suspect?) doing the right thing, that made this happen. Sometimes miracles have a little help.

The tipster was Terri-Lynn. Tori was found in the same general area that Terri-Lynn first identified.

moonlite

07-21-2009, 06:57 PM

I think the murder of Shannon Morrissette was heinous, but her killer applied, and was considered for escorted day passes. When rejected, he was eligible to reapply at a future date.

The Morrissette family was left paying the bill for their air and hotel expenses in order to attend the parole hearing. Their deaf and mute five-year-old daughter's killer had a long criminal history.

As to the previous question of compassionate grounds for the Faint Hope Clause (not your question), in the case of the killer I had the misfortune to see in action, he applied on the grounds that he was not longer a threat, due to his age (60s), and wanted to spend his elderly years with his family. He got out. No tumor required. No minimum 25 years before eligibility for parole. So much for his life sentence for first-degree murder. I did not find this acceptable.

And the system doesn't work if it releases Tim McLean's murderer next year, which is entirely within the realm of legal possibility. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible. He will not have a criminal record when he is released:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090304/bus_verdict_090305/20090305/

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/121312/

This one may slip under the radar, so that if and when Li is released, the Manitoba Criminal Review Board may not make it public. The burden is now on the family to monitor this and, as they did this time around, do their best to make the information public.

It's not so long ago that families were not even made aware of court dates and parole board appearances for the murderers of their loved ones. They used to find out by reading it in the newspaper. As for those not criminally responsible, keeping things secret is what bothers these families a great deal. Fortunately, the entire country does not take the same view as Manitoba.

I must say that having a personal experience, and monitoring the developments of that case over a couple of decades, has changed my point of view about how victims and survivors are treated and how they view the legal process. There is a great deal of re-victimization in the legal process, from plea bargaining forward. I did not know the victim, and I was not physically injured. However, my advice to the families would be to keep Tori high profile in order to ensure that those who took her life do not get off easily. I do believe that keeping her name in the media when parole hearings come up, etc., will ensure a certain amount of public accountability. So it will never be over for the families.

Justice is a subjective thing.

I think sex murders and sex offences belong in a special category, particularly those involving children. Wish as we might, sexual predators and pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. That's my view, and I'm sticking with it.

Greetings"
Gugug"

Thanks for your input!! Yes' I agree with you about the pedophiles too. Do you think MR could use the insanity defense? I'm only asking because I'm not at all familiar with Canadian law.

Moonlite

north-eh

07-21-2009, 07:59 PM

n/t

07-21-2009, 08:09 PM

jljayne

07-21-2009, 09:28 PM

I hope this will be a lesson to all parents all around the globe: Tell your kids to not go anywhere with anyone that they don't know! Even if the person claims to be a teacher, a principal, a neighbor, a friend of your parents, or other "authority", if you don't know him, you don't go with him!

Skraps

07-21-2009, 09:41 PM

:rose::rose::rose:

Rest in peace sweet Tori.
May you know a Heaven of paradise.

Lyndawitha"Y

07-21-2009, 09:47 PM

Oxford County : McClintic Lawyer May Seek Plea Bargain
http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17034
The lawyer representing Terry-Lynne McClintic is thinking of asking for a plea bargain. Jeannine Leroy says her client helped police look for the remains of Victoria Stafford and a plea bargain may be suitable in the case and is an appropriate avenue to explore. McClintic and 28 year old Michael Rafferty are each charged with kidnapping and first degree murder in the case.

:cursing:
N

All I can say is..I hope and pray that they learned from the Benardo Trial NOT TO make a plea deal...I hope they have enough evidence to not only nail Michael Rafferty but her too!!..so they dont have to give this nasty co-conspirator a walk...I have my finger, toes, arms,legs,even eyes crossed hee!!

LMS:scared:

north-eh

07-21-2009, 10:48 PM

Gugug

07-21-2009, 10:57 PM

Greetings"
Gugug"

Thanks for your input!! Yes' I agree with you about the pedophiles too. Do you think MR could use the insanity defense? I'm only asking because I'm not at all familiar with Canadian law.

Moonlite

I think it is entirely possible that he might plead "not criminally responsible", arguing that he was under the influence of drugs/alcohol and has no memory of what happened.

This will not stand up if the Crown can prove that he premeditated/covered up after the fact. The Home Depot trip will be crucial, I believe.

Whatever he said before Hal Mattson became his lawyer could be critical, too. Mr. Mattson is no longer MR's lawyer, of course.

Gugug

07-21-2009, 11:01 PM

Oxford County : McClintic Lawyer May Seek Plea Bargain
http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17034
The lawyer representing Terry-Lynne McClintic is thinking of asking for a plea bargain. Jeannine Leroy says her client helped police look for the remains of Victoria Stafford and a plea bargain may be suitable in the case and is an appropriate avenue to explore. McClintic and 28 year old Michael Rafferty are each charged with kidnapping and first degree murder in the case.

:cursing:
N

Ms. Leroy: " It's done almost in each and every case that comes before the criminal court. It is a normal, regular and appropriate occurrence."

From: http://www.680news.com/news/headlines/more.jsp?content=20090721_174732_7712

Ms. Leroy, you may recall that case in Alberta where the judge offered consideration in sentencing if a killer revealed the location of his victim. There was no plea bargain. Verdict, then consideration, nothing more. Your suggestion is highly offensive.

puppyraiser

07-22-2009, 12:11 AM

I have watched the video of the Detective (Jim Smyth) who found Tori and I am 95% positive I met him a few weeks ago at an event. We introduced ourselves by first names only, chatted a couple times throughout the afternoon... those types of conversations where a common interest brings strangers together and so that's what you discuss. This past Sunday I was at a similar event and recognized a familiar face (and name) and ended up speaking with the gentleman's wife- he was not at the event on Sunday. It all may just be a total coincidence (same first and last name, same jawline, body structure, voice etc), but I don't think so.

Reason I'm posting this....I will be at another event in August and from the wife's comments, I would imagine they will be attending as it is very close to where they live. If it is indeed Detective Jim Smyth, then I will definitely be passing on my praises to him and all the LE personel who never gave up in their quest to bring Tori home.

Gugug

07-22-2009, 01:27 AM

If they agree to a plea bargin in this case, any hope of justice will have gone out the window, GMAB!!

Here's more reading for you.
Tori Stafford: Accused's neighbours aloof

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/21/10212856.html
N

Apparently a farmer's market is going in across the street from the methadone clinic, at the site of the original Woodstock city hall (now a museum). I guess they think it's a good thing.

That's right by the park where one newspaper interviewed a methadone clinic client.

Where I live, a group tried to put such a clinic in an industrial park, then a strip mall, then in a former medical clinic. They were run out of town. I guess Woodstock is more progressive, or tolerant or whatever you want to call it.

Gugug

07-22-2009, 01:34 AM

Ms. Leroy: " It's done almost in each and every case that comes before the criminal court. It is a normal, regular and appropriate occurrence."

From: http://www.680news.com/news/headlines/more.jsp?content=20090721_174732_7712

Ms. Leroy, you may recall that case in Alberta where the judge offered consideration in sentencing if a killer revealed the location of his victim. There was no plea bargain. Verdict, then consideration, nothing more. Your suggestion is highly offensive.

P.S. Ms. Leroy, I do sincerely hope that this is not what I had suspected earlier. That is, that certain evidence would be revealed once the right plea deal was on the table. A child's life should not be leveraged in this way in a civil society.

moonlite

07-22-2009, 02:46 AM

Oxford County : McClintic Lawyer May Seek Plea Bargain
http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17034
The lawyer representing Terry-Lynne McClintic is thinking of asking for a plea bargain. Jeannine Leroy says her client helped police look for the remains of Victoria Stafford and a plea bargain may be suitable in the case and is an appropriate avenue to explore. McClintic and 28 year old Michael Rafferty are each charged with kidnapping and first degree murder in the case.

:cursing:
N

Greetings'
North-eh"

I really hope TLM does not get a plea bargain. No way in heck' is TLM any less guilty than MR. IMO' I think TLM needs to have additional charges;like kidnapping along with the 1st degree murder charges. I think the police have done a good job with Tori's case. Hopefully' they can help build a case that is very solid and prosecutor won't even consider a plea.

Moonlite

moonlite

07-22-2009, 03:23 AM

I think it is entirely possible that he might plead "not criminally responsible", arguing that he was under the influence of drugs/alcohol and has no memory of what happened.

This will not stand up if the Crown can prove that he premeditated/covered up after the fact. The Home Depot trip will be crucial, I believe.

Whatever he said before Hal Mattson became his lawyer could be critical, too. Mr. Mattson is no longer MR's lawyer, of course.

Greetings"
Gugug"

The kidnapping of Tori should be considered premeditation!! Tori was stalked and I think the prosecutors can prove that by TLM walking her dog near the school.

Yes' taking out the back seat out and spray painting the car does not sound like someone who is insane and doesn't know right from wrong. The digital stuff really bothers me regarding Tori's case too. I'm just hoping it was not some kind of snuff film or something!!

Moonlite

moonlite

07-22-2009, 03:35 AM

I knew it. They better not. :cursing:

Greetings"
N/T'

Is there any way people can start a petition regarding Tori's case? I mean tell the prosecutors not to make a plea deal? Would the prosecutors listen? Ok' this idea might be very far fetched and I'm not familiar with Canadian law. But are prosecutors elected like they are in the USA?

Moonlite

Jester

07-22-2009, 05:10 AM

Greetings"
N/T'

Is there any way people can start a petition regarding Tori's case? I mean tell the prosecutors not to make a plea deal? Would the prosecutors listen? Ok' this idea might be very far fetched and I'm not familiar with Canadian law. But are prosecutors elected like they are in the USA?

Moonlite

Prosecutors are not elected. They are hired for the job, and many stay in the job through to retirement. Some move up the ranks until their skills justify promotion to Assistant Chief Crown Prosecutor, and then Chief Crown Prosecutor. Many senior prosecutors are promoted to position of Judge.

A petition would make no difference, in my opinion. Prosecutors look at the evidence and proceed with the most serious charges they can justify. Since Terri Lynn did not have a special deal when she gave information about Tori's location, and now Tori has been found, what could Terri Lynn possibly use to negotiate a deal? She has been charged with first degree murder and there is no reason that we know of (yet) to justify downgrading those charges.

During sentencing, her lawyer can make an argument for leniency based on Terri Lynn's cooperation. The judge doesn't have to listen. If there are aggravating factors that become known during the trial, the judge will be less inclined to show any leniency. If Terri Lynn participated in, for example, a rape, by restraining Tori, then she is equally guilty. If she walked away knowing that Tori would be raped and murdered, similarly, she's just as guilty. There must be justification for first degree murder charges, and Terri Lynn's diary may be part of that evidence.

Jester

07-22-2009, 05:35 AM

Yes, a miracle for sure. Sometimes I wonder if a higher power is guiding searchers when missing bodies are found.

Thankfully Tori will be laid to rest and her family can have peace knowing she is close by.

:rose:

It seems like even the police officer was surprised when he discovered Tori. As a friend often says "God works in mysterious ways."

Jester

07-22-2009, 05:44 AM

I worry about Tim`s case as well.
Criminal responsibility will one day require a new definition. Is the goal not to protect society from harm? Then mental issues should be kept out of the equation altogether. A certain crime means a certain punishment and only evidence, not future behaviour, should be up for review at some point to give possibly wrong convictions another chance or two for reversal. As long as psychiatric evaluations severely influence trials, there will be Vinces and Michaels and Terris set free prematurely. Where is the justice in this, I wonder. The mental state component bothers me especially since we know that some recreational drugs like cocaine can create schizophrenia and psychotic behaviour as a long term side effect. There should be no excuse for crimes committed under self-imposed misery and delusion. Luckily digital evidence seems to play a big role in Tori`s sad case. This will hopefully make up for a defendant`s attempt to question the credibility of witnesses.

Off topic but related: a couple of years ago my infant child joined a group of other moms and infants in a daycare setting. Most infants were too young to even crawl, they were rather looking around on the carpet, pushing themselves up on their little hands. At each meeting two older mentally disabled children around age 3 were present as well. One of them got the most joy out of seeing infants cry and specialized in stomping on infants` fragile hands when nobody was watching. It happened over and over again but just because the child was mentally disabled, the parent and daycare staff did not intervene and made excuses to the parents of the hurt infants "he doesn`t know any better". It would have been wiser to keep this kid and the group apart but in our efforts to be politically correct, we often do more damage than good. It is the same justice system, small and large.

I think that diminished capacity due to drug use has to be related to a fear of immediate danger. For example, if someone is high on some drug and perceives that someone is attacking them - even if the drugs are distorting their perception, maybe then it is a factor. In this case, it would be impossible to demonstrate that the two murderers were acting on mistaken perceptions when they lured, raped, and murdered a child. There were far too many examples of them functioning rather normally. They drove a car, stopped at a gas station ... I'm not sure what all they did ... they murdered Tori, they hid her, they hid evidence (car seat), and they attempted to avoid arrest. My opinion is that there is no argument to be made about drugs interfering with their ability to determine right from wrong.

n/t

07-22-2009, 06:34 AM

Prosecutors are not elected. They are hired for the job, and many stay in the job through to retirement. Some move up the ranks until their skills justify promotion to Assistant Chief Crown Prosecutor, and then Chief Crown Prosecutor. Many senior prosecutors are promoted to position of Judge.

A petition would make no difference, in my opinion. Prosecutors look at the evidence and proceed with the most serious charges they can justify. Since Terri Lynn did not have a special deal when she gave information about Tori's location, and now Tori has been found, what could Terri Lynn possibly use to negotiate a deal? She has been charged with first degree murder and there is no reason that we know of (yet) to justify downgrading those charges.

During sentencing, her lawyer can make an argument for leniency based on Terri Lynn's cooperation. The judge doesn't have to listen. If there are aggravating factors that become known during the trial, the judge will be less inclined to show any leniency. If Terri Lynn participated in, for example, a rape, by restraining Tori, then she is equally guilty. If she walked away knowing that Tori would be raped and murdered, similarly, she's just as guilty. There must be justification for first degree murder charges, and Terri Lynn's diary may be part of that evidence.

You're right, Jester. I had forgotten that her charges were actually upgraded even when she "helped" search. There's no way they'll go for a plea deal. It's actually rather disgusting that her lawyer would even suggest it but that's what lawyers are paid to do.

I'm confident TLM will get convicted of 1st degree with no parole for 25 years and so will the other murdering low life scum.

Jester

07-22-2009, 06:45 AM

You're right, Jester. I had forgotten that her charges were actually upgraded even when she "helped" search. There's no way they'll go for a plea deal. It's actually rather disgusting that her lawyer would even suggest it but that's what lawyers are paid to do.

I'm confident TLM will get convicted of 1st degree with no parole for 25 years and so will the other murdering low life scum.

It's difficult to figure out what the lawyer is thinking when she mentions a deal. A deal requires Terri Lynn having something to bargain with. Maybe I'm thinking too narrowly, as Terri Lynn could still bargain with saying she will plead guilty and testify against Rafferty. Maybe she wants a reduced charge for that type of plea. However, if she has confessed, then the police have a record of that and she doesn't need to plead guilty. I have to wonder if the police made a deal already (although they say that they did not) such that information leading to the successful recovery of Tori could result in reduced charges or leniency.

n/t

07-22-2009, 06:56 AM

It's difficult to figure out what the lawyer is thinking when she mentions a deal. A deal requires Terri Lynn having something to bargain with. Maybe I'm thinking too narrowly, as Terri Lynn could still bargain with saying she will plead guilty and testify against Rafferty. Maybe she wants a reduced charge for that type of plea. However, if she has confessed, then the police have a record of that and she doesn't need to plead guilty. I have to wonder if the police made a deal already (although they say that they did not) such that information leading to the successful recovery of Tori could result in reduced charges or leniency.

From the link North posted, apparently the lawyer is thinking of asking for a plea bargain because her client helped police search for Victoria. When she helped them search, they didn't find her. Maybe there was a plea deal on the table when this was going on with a specific timeframe. Maybe she was still helping them in some way. Is that possible?

I'm wondering if LE knew where Tori's remains were and were waiting for the time to elapse, found the remains, so no plea bargain? Just a thought.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:12 AM

From the link North posted, apparently the lawyer is thinking of asking for a plea bargain because her client helped police search for Victoria. When she helped them search, they didn't find her. Maybe there was a plea deal on the table when this was going on with a specific timeframe. Maybe she was still helping them in some way. Is that possible?

I'm wondering if LE knew where Tori's remains were and were waiting for the time to elapse, found the remains, so no plea bargain? Just a thought.

I did hear that it was because of Terri Lynn's information that Tori was found ... something about a pile of rocks and other details. It's possible that police continued to interview her even after she was confined to jail. I also have heard police state that there was no deal. Any deal would have to be made with the prosecutor's office, and prosecutors usually keep their end of the deal because otherwise they'd lose their credibility.

I don't know, but maybe there was a verbal deal between Terri Lynn's lawyer and the prosecution that if she helped find the body and Tori was found using that information, then she should be shown leniency. The prosecutor may have said no deal, but tell us what you know. Possibly at that time Terri Lynn told everything that she knew, which resulted in a full confession and first degree murder charges. There may have been an unwritten agreement that if the info Terri Lynn provided led to the discovery of Tori ... an agreement could be reached. I don't know ... I sure hope not. It would be exactly the same deal prosecutors made with Karla Homolka ... thinking that the female accomplice was really a victim. Homolka simply knew the gig was up, as did Terri Lynn. I guess we'll find out in the next couple of days whether there was a deal ... if the records are not sealed ... and otherwise we'll have to wait for a trial.

I don't think the police would have deliberately waited for a deal to expire before recovering the remains. That would be a scandal ... and could impede forensic analysis related to cause of death.

n/t

07-22-2009, 07:29 AM

I did hear that it was because of Terri Lynn's information that Tori was found ... something about a pile of rocks and other details. It's possible that police continued to interview her even after she was confined to jail. I also have heard police state that there was no deal. Any deal would have to be made with the prosecutor's office, and prosecutors usually keep their end of the deal because otherwise they'd lose their credibility.

I don't know, but maybe there was a verbal deal between Terri Lynn's lawyer and the prosecution that if she helped find the body and Tori was found using that information, then she should be shown leniency. The prosecutor may have said no deal, but tell us what you know. Possibly at that time Terri Lynn told everything that she knew, which resulted in a full confession and first degree murder charges. There may have been an unwritten agreement that if the info Terri Lynn provided led to the discovery of Tori ... an agreement could be reached. I don't know ... I sure hope not. It would be exactly the same deal prosecutors made with Karla Homolka ... thinking that the female accomplice was really a victim. Homolka simply knew the gig was up, as did Terri Lynn. I guess we'll find out in the next couple of days whether there was a deal ... if the records are not sealed ... and otherwise we'll have to wait for a trial.

I don't think the police would have deliberately waited for a deal to expire before recovering the remains. That would be a scandal ... and could impede forensic analysis related to cause of death.

I hope the prosecutors are not that stupid. Karla was not a victim and if they consider Terri Lynn a victim that would be an embarrassment to our legal system and an injustice to the real victim, Tori. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake twice. We see TLM walking with Tori in that video. She's the one who lured Tori. She's the one who initiated this brutal murder. If she was a victim, she'd run or call the cops on her sick minded, pervert, coward of a boyfriend who wanted little girls.

I think Canadians will be outraged if either one gets a deal. It won't be pretty. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking that she could be out in 12 years like Karla.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:44 AM

I hope the prosecutors are not that stupid. Karla was not a victim and if they consider Terri Lynn a victim that would be an embarrassment to our legal system and an injustice to the real victim, Tori. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake twice. We see TLM walking with Tori in that video. She's the one who lured Tori. She's the one who initiated this brutal murder. If she was a victim, she'd run or call the cops on her sick minded, pervert, coward of a boyfriend who wanted little girls.

I think Canadians will be outraged if either one gets a deal. It won't be pretty. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking that she could be out in 12 years like Karla.

That's why I'm confused about what her lawyer could be thinking about a deal. On record, there is no deal. It seems to me that she has nothing to bargain with. As you point out, none of this would have happened if Terri Lynn had not lured Tori away. Tori would have been more wary of a 28 year old man trying to lure her away, less so with a woman of 18.

Her lawyer may have asked for a deal, and possibly prosecutors agreed to hear what she would say without committing to anything. Perhaps they have not made a deal, and Terri Lynn's lawyer is hoping that prosecutors will now agree to a deal.

n/t

07-22-2009, 07:49 AM

That's why I'm confused about what her lawyer could be thinking about a deal. On record, there is no deal. It seems to me that she has nothing to bargain with. As you point out, none of this would have happened if Terri Lynn had not lured Tori away. Tori would have been more wary of a 28 year old man trying to lure her away, less so with a woman of 18.

Her lawyer may have asked for a deal, and possibly prosecutors agreed to hear what she would say without committing to anything. Perhaps they have not made a deal, and Terri Lynn's lawyer is hoping that prosecutors will now agree to a deal.

I guess that's her job to get her client a lesser sentence and the plea deal would do that. Afterall, her client "helped" the cops. What a gal :angry:

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:55 AM

I guess that's her job to get her client a lesser sentence and the plea deal would do that. Afterall, her client "helped" the cops. What a gal :angry:

I suspect that's more likely what's going on. The lawyer is thinking about how her client helped the prosecution, and now the prosecution should help her client. If I recall correctly, the lawyer has quite a reputation, and probably moves in all sorts of legal circles. She is apparently trying to get her client a deal, but I don't see any reason why prosecutor's office would go along with it. I hope they refuse a meeting ... and I have to wonder why the lawyer is announcing this to the press.

Is she trying to aggravate the public?

BJames

07-22-2009, 07:56 AM

Why would she want to take the children? Especially the younger ones. Just curious.

Ooops I think I must have miscommunicated here...

I was already meant to visit she and the children before this all came about....and we aren't taking them anywhere near there.
The 'explaining' I was talking about is in regards to how small the community near Mount Forest is...and of course kids talk...and parents have to answer questions.
:smile:

Just my opinion of course...

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:59 AM

Ooops I think I must have miscommunicated here...

I was already meant to visit she and the children before this all came about....and we aren't taking them anywhere near there.
The 'explaining' I was talking about is in regards to how small the community near Mount Forest is...and of course kids talk...and parents have to answer questions.
:smile:

Just my opinion of course...

You're quite right. Children will be talking about it in hushed tone ... for years.

n/t

07-22-2009, 08:12 AM

n/t

07-22-2009, 08:15 AM

I suspect that's more likely what's going on. The lawyer is thinking about how her client helped the prosecution, and now the prosecution should help her client. If I recall correctly, the lawyer has quite a reputation, and probably moves in all sorts of legal circles. She is apparently trying to get her client a deal, but I don't see any reason why prosecutor's office would go along with it. I hope they refuse a meeting ... and I have to wonder why the lawyer is announcing this to the press.

Is she trying to aggravate the public?

Who knows. My guess would be she wants publicity? So the next criminal will look her up and want her.

It takes a special breed to be able to represent these monsters. I don't know how they do it.

n/t

07-22-2009, 08:18 AM

You're quite right. Children will be talking about it in hushed tone ... for years.

I hope this tragedy is a wake up call to parents and children. These horrors happen in big cities and even little towns like Woodstock and never trust anyone including a neighbour or an acquaintance. Sad reality. :sad:

Jester

07-22-2009, 08:24 AM

Who knows. My guess would be she wants publicity? So the next criminal will look her up and want her.

It takes a special breed to be able to represent these monsters. I don't know how they do it.

I suspect she's more interested in her own career. Criminals and murderers usually don't have enough money to hire an expensive lawyer. Is she getting paid her usual fee for this, or is it legal aid? I could see a high profile lawyer taking this on legal aid to further her own career.

Jester

07-22-2009, 08:27 AM

I hope this tragedy is a wake up call to parents and children. These horrors happen in big cities and even little towns like Woodstock and never trust anyone including a neighbour or an acquaintance. Sad reality. :sad:

I think many parents still want to see the good in the world and, as these circumstances as so rare, they do not see it as justification to change a child's entire childhood.

BevAnn

07-22-2009, 09:19 AM

I sure hope they do not offer her a deal, or accept a plea from that witch!! :angry:

True, he found Tori because the area had all the "markers" she told LE about - BUT...one article I read on here, said it was 15 minute drive from where she had them looking! That's quite a ways! How was she off by that much?!

She could give them landmarks all day long, but if she never took them by the actual place, it wouldn't matter! She knew exactly what she was doing - just thank God this guy happened to be broadening his area on a whim (or tip?), and came across her markers. I don't think she had any intention of helping them find Tori. :sneaky:

JMHO

north-eh

07-22-2009, 09:36 AM

Good morning fine friends. I can't get past this deal that TLM's lawyer is talking about. It really makes me angry, surely to God they wouldn't do that.....would they???

Another deal with the devil?

http://thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/604443

There is also a link provided to comment on this article if you wish.

Tori Stafford's family feel grief, relief
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/669808

OPP fete new peninsula office
http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1666211

'A terrible, terrible experience'
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/22/10215166-sun.html

'Friendly City' picks up pieces
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/22/10215171-sun.html

N

north-eh

07-22-2009, 09:38 AM

'Evil does lurk'
The grey skies above the city seemed to fit the grim nature of the announcement.

While everyone had expected police to confirm Tuesday that human remains discovered Sunday in the Mount Forest area were those of Victoria "Tori" Stafford, the mood was still sombre. With this sad confirmation, acting Oxford Community Police Service Chief Rod Freeman suggested the Woodstock community and Tori's grieving family would at last have some measure of closure.

"Our community has gone through a terrible, terrible experience in the last three-and-a-half months," Freeman said during the morning press conference. "The discovery of Tori's remains ... have brought us a little bit closer to closure."

Positively identified Monday night through dental records, Tori's body remained at Toronto's Centre of Forensic Sciences while forensic pathologists continued their examinations. As well as gathering critical evidence for the upcoming trials, the pathologists were trying to determine the cause of death.

When asked when Tori would be returned home, Det.-Insp. Bill Renton, the OPP officer who headed the joint investigation, said the tests could take some weeks. This could delay a formal funeral by as much as a month, the Stafford family said.

"They (police) said it could be some time yet," said Doreen Graichen, Tori's paternal grandmother. "It could be from a week to a month. They were very general.

"There are some ways it's a relief, because now we know where she is, but it's not what we wanted to happen. I just feel kind of numb."
"This is a very tragic event, no doubt," OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino said, "but the end result is gratifying from the point of view of what we can put before the courts and see justice is done.

"We are all grieving . . . about the tragic loss of an innocent child and the realization, once again, that evil does lurk, and we need to be very mindful and caring and conscientious about the well-being of our children."

Following the morning announcement, reporters and news trucks gathered in front of the home of Tara McDonald, Tori's mother. While McDonald was home -- she briefly peered out the front window at the throng of reporters -- she stayed indoors.

Some friends and family stopped by the small Francis Street house but politely refused to talk to reporters. Rodney Stafford, Tori's father, did drop by the house for a few moments to pick up his son Daryn.
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1667324

N

museumgirl

07-22-2009, 11:22 AM

never trust anyone including a neighbour or an acquaintance. Sad reality.

I don't agree with this... you have to learn to trust and teach your children to trust as well. They have to have guidelines and know who their family trusts.. they have to know that if they are uncomfortable in a situation to get out of it immediately.... but if you tell a child they cannot trust anyone.... what is that really teaching them????

Besides.... it's not like mothers and fathers don't hurt their children.... if you are going to say don't trust a neighbor... then add don't trust family and then what type of life does a child have???

n/t

07-22-2009, 01:27 PM

I don't agree with this... you have to learn to trust and teach your children to trust as well. They have to have guidelines and know who their family trusts.. they have to know that if they are uncomfortable in a situation to get out of it immediately.... but if you tell a child they cannot trust anyone.... what is that really teaching them????

Besides.... it's not like mothers and fathers don't hurt their children.... if you are going to say don't trust a neighbor... then add don't trust family and then what type of life does a child have???

Ok to disagree. Sadly, the statistics speak for themselves. Only in rare cases is the perpetrator a stranger.

I would teach my child not to go with anyone unless I approved.

Gugug

07-22-2009, 03:17 PM

I suspect that's more likely what's going on. The lawyer is thinking about how her client helped the prosecution, and now the prosecution should help her client. If I recall correctly, the lawyer has quite a reputation, and probably moves in all sorts of legal circles. She is apparently trying to get her client a deal, but I don't see any reason why prosecutor's office would go along with it. I hope they refuse a meeting ... and I have to wonder why the lawyer is announcing this to the press.

Is she trying to aggravate the public?

Let's just say that she has aggravated the public. She also aggravated the Toronto Police Association in a past case to the point that they filed a formal complaint against her:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2009/08/c6094.html

moonlite

07-22-2009, 03:18 PM

Prosecutors are not elected. They are hired for the job, and many stay in the job through to retirement. Some move up the ranks until their skills justify promotion to Assistant Chief Crown Prosecutor, and then Chief Crown Prosecutor. Many senior prosecutors are promoted to position of Judge.

A petition would make no difference, in my opinion. Prosecutors look at the evidence and proceed with the most serious charges they can justify. Since Terri Lynn did not have a special deal when she gave information about Tori's location, and now Tori has been found, what could Terri Lynn possibly use to negotiate a deal? She has been charged with first degree murder and there is no reason that we know of (yet) to justify downgrading those charges.

During sentencing, her lawyer can make an argument for leniency based on Terri Lynn's cooperation. The judge doesn't have to listen. If there are aggravating factors that become known during the trial, the judge will be less inclined to show any leniency. If Terri Lynn participated in, for example, a rape, by restraining Tori, then she is equally guilty. If she walked away knowing that Tori would be raped and murdered, similarly, she's just as guilty. There must be justification for first degree murder charges, and Terri Lynn's diary may be part of that evidence.

Greetings"
Jester"

Thanks for your thoughts!! I never knew about TLM's diary? When did the police find the diary? What about the digital stuff?

Moonlite

Gugug

07-22-2009, 03:31 PM

Just a thought, but isn't Leroy's push for a plea deal a sort of admission of guilt?

Don't people offer to plead guilty to a reduced charge in the hopes of serving less time? In other words, they don't offer to get off the hook entirely, but to make things slightly better for themselves, in a situation which may be distasteful, yet assures the Crown of a guilty verdict?

Gugug

07-22-2009, 03:39 PM

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=270602&x=articles&s=societe

He did say that he was doing this for Daryn, too, because he wanted to show him that dad could do something about this situation.

Gugug

07-22-2009, 03:57 PM

American information, but relevant to this case:

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/incentive-plea-bargain.htm

http://www.hmichaelsteinberg.com/pleabargaining.htm

CFMom

07-22-2009, 04:11 PM

I don't agree with this... you have to learn to trust and teach your children to trust as well. They have to have guidelines and know who their family trusts.. they have to know that if they are uncomfortable in a situation to get out of it immediately.... but if you tell a child they cannot trust anyone.... what is that really teaching them????

Besides.... it's not like mothers and fathers don't hurt their children.... if you are going to say don't trust a neighbor... then add don't trust family and then what type of life does a child have???

I disagree with you. It's sad...yes..but never the less most of the time its someone the child knows and is trusted by family who snatches them with stories like 'I'm taking you to mom' etc. I'd rather have a child who trusts noone than a dead/missing one.

Is it right to live this way or bring a child up this way..in a perfect world the answer would be NO..but we arent in a perfect world. IMO

Gugug

07-22-2009, 06:24 PM

I worry about Tim`s case as well.
Criminal responsibility will one day require a new definition. Is the goal not to protect society from harm? Then mental issues should be kept out of the equation altogether. A certain crime means a certain punishment and only evidence, not future behaviour, should be up for review at some point to give possibly wrong convictions another chance or two for reversal. As long as psychiatric evaluations severely influence trials, there will be Vinces and Michaels and Terris set free prematurely. Where is the justice in this, I wonder. The mental state component bothers me especially since we know that some recreational drugs like cocaine can create schizophrenia and psychotic behaviour as a long term side effect. There should be no excuse for crimes committed under self-imposed misery and delusion. Luckily digital evidence seems to play a big role in Tori`s sad case. This will hopefully make up for a defendant`s attempt to question the credibility of witnesses.

Off topic but related: a couple of years ago my infant child joined a group of other moms and infants in a daycare setting. Most infants were too young to even crawl, they were rather looking around on the carpet, pushing themselves up on their little hands. At each meeting two older mentally disabled children around age 3 were present as well. One of them got the most joy out of seeing infants cry and specialized in stomping on infants` fragile hands when nobody was watching. It happened over and over again but just because the child was mentally disabled, the parent and daycare staff did not intervene and made excuses to the parents of the hurt infants "he doesn`t know any better". It would have been wiser to keep this kid and the group apart but in our efforts to be politically correct, we often do more damage than good. It is the same justice system, small and large.

I do not agree with "not criminally responsible". I would like to see something like "insane and guilty". This would mean a criminal record. The person committed a criminal act while insane. The record would be public. As it stands now, someone like Vince Li could get out if he plays by the rules and takes his meds. All might be well...until he stops taking his meds while unsupervised, or perhaps takes some other meds/substances that cause a relapse. Let's say, for example, that he threatened someone. With no criminal record, the police and courts would have to treat this as a first offence. He could be released and do something much, much more serious, like acting on that threat.

There is no protection for the public with a system like this. We are left to trust in an authority that keeps things secret. In today's society there is a need and a demand for disclosure. We are hardly obedient peasants who trust in the benevolence of an unknown authority. Patting us on the head and telling us everything will be okay just doesn't cut it.

The current system has no accountability to the public. Isn't that why the law exists in the first place? To safeguard society? How can it do this if it goes against society as a whole?

Then there are the infinite other things like crack babies, FAS, Asperger's, and autism, to name a few. People can be a threat to society and be damaged by pre-birth conditions. There needs to be a way to safeguard society from people who are damaged and dangerous. Currently, such people who commit crimes can be released with no record. There is a problem here.

Gugug

07-22-2009, 07:32 PM

I thought it might be time to repost this link:

http://caj.ca/mediamag/awards2005/(Andrew%20Mitrovica)%20Saturday%20Night%20Magazine .htm

And here's another one:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=zHrclVlr6KoC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=mennonite+drug+trafficking+in+canada&source=bl&ots=FYX26ADwQ6&sig=1bzGaqDfd6nmKPSKK93D5McDFxw&hl=en&ei=W5JnSp3wJZSssgOZ2-WrBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

And another:

http://www.mennonitechurch.ca/resourcecentre/FileDownload/1370/June_2004.pdf

For information only.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:40 PM

Let's just say that she has aggravated the public. She also aggravated the Toronto Police Association in a past case to the point that they filed a formal complaint against her:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2009/08/c6094.html

Thanks for reminding me about that. I think that was where I got the impression that she thought she was more in the league of prosecutors than anyone else. She may think she deserves some special favours after that case and it could be interpreted that she was prepared to bend the law for friends.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:44 PM

Greetings"
Jester"

Thanks for your thoughts!! I never knew about TLM's diary? When did the police find the diary? What about the digital stuff?

Moonlite

I think other posters may know more about the diary, as I haven't been able to keep up with everything. I do recall reading about a diary found at her apt. and some really negative comments about her wanting to hurt, or lash out at, the world.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:49 PM

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=270602&x=articles&s=societe

He did say that he was doing this for Daryn, too, because he wanted to show him that dad could do something about this situation.

He said he will say goodbye to Tori at the top of the Rocky Mountains in Alberta.

Jester

07-22-2009, 07:54 PM

American information, but relevant to this case:

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/incentive-plea-bargain.htm

http://www.hmichaelsteinberg.com/pleabargaining.htm

Thanks for the links. I think the same reasons for a plea apply in Canada. In this case, however, I don't see any of those reasons being a factor. Also, if Terri Lynn is convicted of first degree murder, there is no alternative but a sentence of 25 years to life with no eligibility for parole before 25 years. That's the law and it cannot be changed for Terri Lynn. The only deal that could reduce the sentence is to reduce the charges ... and that seems unlikely. Terri Lynn would have to argue that she lured Tori away and expected to return her to her family at the end of the day - I doubt that's possible. At some point, as they were driving Tori to the middle of no where, she knew it was going to end badly even if she didn't know that at the outset.

Jester

07-23-2009, 12:23 AM

Thanks for re-posting these. Quote from one of the links:

"The proof is in the numbers. By the late 1990s, Old Colony Mennonites living in Ontario, Manitoba and throughout northern Mexico had cornered the market on the sale and distribution of marijuana in Canada, and were responsible for a staggering 20 per cent of all pot smuggled into the country. Police estimate that the cartel, with guile and ingenuity, was spiriting upwards of 750 kilograms of dope across the Canada-U.S. border every month. Today, by Loop’s count, 5,000 Mennonites have been conscripted into the drug trade in southwestern Ontario alone and their ranks swell steadily every year."

I have driven through the area where Tori was found a couple of times before and one can not help but wonder how people in these silent rural areas survive without either getting depressed or driving a few hours a day to work in larger towns. The visible farming activities look too lame to feed the whole population. Little did I know about Mennonite county. The silence of the crops. The silence of a religion and lifestyle. How convenient a platform for criminal activities, not necessarily by any of their members but inviting for anyone with a hidden agenda. Picturing MR and TLM in this, the word 'premeditation' comes back to mind. What if they deliberately chose this area to commit the crime versus just using it as a -sorry- dumping ground.

I think it's important not to generalize about communities. If you research further, you will discover that there are several critiques of the linked articles. Not everyone in Woodstock is a meth addict, and not all Mennonites in Eastern Canada are drug runners. They are both regular communities with small off-shoot populations that are involved in illegal activities.

Gugug

07-23-2009, 01:14 AM

I think it's important not to generalize about communities. If you research further, you will discover that there are several critiques of the linked articles. Not everyone in Woodstock is a meth addict, and not all Mennonites in Eastern Canada are drug runners. They are both regular communities with small off-shoot populations that are involved in illegal activities.

The article did not say that everyone is involved. No, of course not everyone is a drug addict or a Mennonite drug runner.

I posted the article from the Mennonite newsletter as acknowledgment from within that community that a certain portion of that population does indeed have a problem, like other communities across this country.

It is important to remember is that no community, religious or not, should be placed on a pillar. There are bad people who sometimes hide behind religion and other fronts. Thinking that all religious people are good is dangerous. We've had plenty of evidence of that before. It is wiser, IMO, to acknowledge that anyone can be a suspect regardless of what they claim to be. There are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Gugug

07-23-2009, 01:19 AM

He said he will say goodbye to Tori at the top of the Rocky Mountains in Alberta.

"I've wanted to be able to say to my son that I've done that one thing to help. I can say that now," Stafford said.

From: http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/18/10176776-sun.html

Jester

07-23-2009, 01:36 AM

"I've wanted to be able to say to my son that I've done that one thing to help. I can say that now," Stafford said.

From: http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/18/10176776-sun.html

Thanks ... and ..

"He said he will say his own personal goodbye at the top of an Alberta mountain after a bike ride across Canada in honour of his slain daughter."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/Family-of-abducted-Ontario-girl_-Tori-Stafford_-believe-body-found-is-Tori_s.html?viewAllComments=y

aproudmom

07-23-2009, 10:59 AM

aproudmom

07-23-2009, 11:10 AM

The article did not say that everyone is involved. No, of course not everyone is a drug addict or a Mennonite drug runner.

I posted the article from the Mennonite newsletter as acknowledgment from within that community that a certain portion of that population does indeed have a problem, like other communities across this country.

It is important to remember is that no community, religious or not, should be placed on a pillar. There are bad people who sometimes hide behind religion and other fronts. Thinking that all religious people are good is dangerous. We've had plenty of evidence of that before. It is wiser, IMO, to acknowledge that anyone can be a suspect regardless of what they claim to be. There are wolves in sheep's clothing.

very true..some man just got shot dead a few doors down from me and several people in the link to the local paper who does not even live in this area started talking about this being a scary place to live well sorry it has never been a scary place is there bad everywhere heck yes there is... people do not know what their own neighbors do behind closed doors nor do they want to admit it...bad people are every where..and this is a safe place to live but does not mean there is not a bad few..

aproudmom

07-23-2009, 11:25 AM

justmy2cents

07-23-2009, 12:40 PM

you are correct...

Jester

07-23-2009, 12:59 PM

IIRC Canada is not like the US here our prosecutors have to run every 4 years so we have more input or else they know they will be campaigned against and the Judges run a 4yr and a 6yr which is when my BIL has to run for county Judge..I could be wrong but I think there they are hired and IMO it is not good I would rather be able to see what someone does and if they do a poor job I will campaign against them..

Prosecutors are hired, fired, and promoted in Canada based on job performance and skill as well, with the difference being that those abilities are assessed by the department of justice (their employer) rather than campaign, community vote, and election.

MoonFlwr

07-23-2009, 08:04 PM

Ok to disagree. Sadly, the statistics speak for themselves. Only in rare cases is the perpetrator a stranger.

I would teach my child not to go with anyone unless I approved.

Yes, I agree. That's probably the way to go.

Not sure how that would've worked in the Sandra Cantu case, though. :sad:

north-eh

07-23-2009, 09:06 PM

This was taken from a FB site dedicated to no plea deal for MR nor TLM.
I will c&p just the info they are providing asking people to submit their protest against a plea deal. (If I'm stepping on toes here I apologize and I'm sure I will be notified as to whether it is allowed.)

Please go to this website for the the Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario to send a letter of protest a Plea Deal for Terri Lynn McClintic, co-accused in the abduction and murder of Victoria Stafford.

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/feedback.asp

PICK THE FIRST OPTION:
o I want to send a message to the Minister
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You will be asked to enter your name, email address and mailing address. The more people who speak up, the better chance our voices will be heard and taken into consideration. It only takes 2 minutes!

N

Amy

07-24-2009, 03:30 AM

aproudmom

07-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Some video of the area. The grass is so tall that is seems like a bit of a miracle that she was found.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Video+Remains+found/1812400/story.html?tab=VID

:crying:thanks for the link Jester kinda wish I had not watched it..did you see the police saluting the hearse carrying her little body..I will never understand why people do this to throw a child in a field like she is nothing..I hope they rot in jail...JMO

aproudmom

07-24-2009, 08:11 AM

Yes, a miracle for sure. Sometimes I wonder if a higher power is guiding searchers when missing bodies are found.

Thankfully Tori will be laid to rest and her family can have peace knowing she is close by.

:rose:

In the video it says the new tip they got was from TLM or so her lawyer said anyway..I thought she tried and could not find the area?:sneaky:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Video+Remains+found/1812400/story.html?tab=VID

Jester

07-24-2009, 03:44 PM

:crying:thanks for the link Jester kinda wish I had not watched it..did you see the police saluting the hearse carrying her little body..I will never understand why people do this to throw a child in a field like she is nothing..I hope they rot in jail...JMO

That was really hard to watch. I had no idea that a hearse was used to remove remains from a crime scene. The police saluting really drives home how desperately the police had been searching for Tori; how important it had become to them to bring her home.

Jester

07-24-2009, 03:50 PM

In the video it says the new tip they got was from TLM or so her lawyer said anyway..I thought she tried and could not find the area?:sneaky:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Video+Remains+found/1812400/story.html?tab=VID

I understood that Terri Lynne had described a number of landmarks, and a general area where she thought they put Tori ... and the officers continued looking for similar landmarks in the area (something about a pile of rocks).

After the stunt Terry Lynn's lawyer pulled in dismissing charges without even talking to the arresting officer ... I wouldn't put anything past her. I don't think the police will want to make any deals with her either.

Gugug

07-24-2009, 08:17 PM

For any of you who are still following this:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/07/24/10247701.html

I have often wondered about weird connections, like the Stafford line, where bodies of the murdered men were found, the strange timing of Tori's disappearance on the day the trial resumed, and the identity of MH. We have been over these things before. I wondered even more when the trial took a break for a few days, then Tori was found.

Makes me go hmmm.

Jester

07-24-2009, 09:12 PM

Skraps

07-24-2009, 10:13 PM

north-eh

07-24-2009, 11:13 PM

McClintic's lawyer says talk of plea bargain is premature
http://www.thespec.com/article/605184
N

doctor_J

07-24-2009, 11:21 PM

Amy

07-24-2009, 11:37 PM

McClintic's lawyer says talk of plea bargain is premature
http://www.thespec.com/article/605184
N

On the fast track back track there? lol. If it is "premature" to talk of a deal, then she shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Or, if it was mentioned because someone ASKED about a deal, she should have said THEN that it is premature to even be thinking about it. Geesh

moonlite

07-25-2009, 01:55 AM

McClintic's lawyer says talk of plea bargain is premature
http://www.thespec.com/article/605184
N

Greetings"
North-eh"

Thanks for the link. I do think TLM's attorney might have spoke a wee bit out of hand. I mean before' the first article when she was saying a plea is a normal. Seems now TLM's attorney is doing some back tracking with her wording now.IMO Which I think is a very good thing!! There should be no plea!!IMO

Moonlite

n/t

07-25-2009, 09:54 AM

When the crime scene near Mount Forest is clear I will be attending to lay some flowers/teddy bear for Tori. It is only a 25 minute drive from me. For those of you who are so far away, I would be more than willing to include your name/gesture with my placement.
Just let me know what you would like me to do/leave for you.

That's very sweet of you Skraps. A prayer from all of us when you're laying down the flowers would be very much appreciated. :rose:

n/t

07-25-2009, 10:03 AM

Greetings"
North-eh"

Thanks for the link. I do think TLM's attorney might have spoke a wee bit out of hand. I mean before' the first article when she was saying a plea is a normal. Seems now TLM's attorney is doing some back tracking with her wording now.IMO Which I think is a very good thing!! There should be no plea!!IMO

Moonlite

I guess a little back peddling after the outrage from the public. Stupid move on her part.

I do question what she's going to do on Aug 12th. I'm wondering if she'll try to enter an insanity plea or wait for sentencing and beg for leniency because of TLM's troubled childhood.

n/t

07-25-2009, 10:07 AM

That video showing the OPP officers saluting the hearse is so heartbreaking. It really sums up their intense determination to find this child. I just can't come up with appropriate words to express my gratitude and admiration for what that have done for Tori.

I thought it was a beautiful gesture for a beautiful little girl. I'm sure it must've been such an emotional day for them.

As much as I criticized them for the way they handled this case, I know they were relentless in their search to bring Tori home and give her a proper burial.

My blessings go out to them and their families.

north-eh

07-25-2009, 02:33 PM

When the crime scene near Mount Forest is clear I will be attending to lay some flowers/teddy bear for Tori. It is only a 25 minute drive from me. For those of you who are so far away, I would be more than willing to include your name/gesture with my placement.
Just let me know what you would like me to do/leave for you.

Hi Skraps...that really is sweet of you. Just add an extra prayer from all of us would you that would be appreciated.
For Victoria.....:rose:
N

north-eh

07-25-2009, 08:10 PM

Time to join in abject apology

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Cornies_Larry/2009/07/25/10256786-sun.html
N

debbadoo

07-26-2009, 02:30 AM

:crying:thanks for the link Jester kinda wish I had not watched it..did you see the police saluting the hearse carrying her little body..I will never understand why people do this to throw a child in a field like she is nothing..I hope they rot in jail...JMO

I must agree......that video was SO hard to watch, but the hearse and the saluting officers did me in.....:crying:

Skraps

07-26-2009, 10:11 PM

Will do.

I am proud to have been a part of such a great room of people, so devoted to the case of a little girl which none of us had known.

moonlite

07-26-2009, 11:18 PM

Will do.

I am proud to have been a part of such a great room of people, so devoted to the case of a little girl which none of us had known.

Greetings'
Skraps"

Yes' I agree with you!! Lil Tori will forever be in our hearts.

Moonlite

ginky41

07-27-2009, 01:45 AM

I followed this case very closely every day from the beginning, but then I had to take a break. I just checked back today after learning about Robert Manwill missing from Boise, ID (where I live) and saw that Tori's remains had been found. Heartbreaking.

Has there been any determination of motive on the parts of TLM and MR? Was this totally random? Were they just looking for some little girl/any little girl to take?

RIP Sweet Tori.
:rose:

doctor_J

07-27-2009, 04:00 AM

ginky, none of those answers are yet known. TLM has reportedly said that she did not know Tori (did not know she was Tara McDonald's daughter). We also know that there was some kind of relationship between Tara and TLM. We don't know if they had only spoken or had a more involved relationship. Tara and TLM have reportedly denied it but some of that has been contradicted by the reports of TLM's neighbors and one of Tara's former neighbors. We just don't know anything about motive. May actually just have been a "thrill kill" for some kind of deviant sexual pleasure (made me sick to type that).

M_J

07-27-2009, 10:00 AM

Hi all.

I'm not sure if everyone knows who I am, for everyone new to the board.. welcome..

to all the names I remember.. I hope you are all well! :)

I had to take a break from the message board shortly after TLM & MR were charged. I honestly could not believe that someone could hurt such an innocent little girl.

Skraps, I appreciate your offer to say a prayer for everyone here. :)

I'm glad her body has been found, now she can truly rest in peace. Heaven has another angel.

IMO, I don't care what happens to TLM or MR.. as long as they never see the light of day again. :)

n/t

07-29-2009, 09:13 PM

Father of murdered Ont. girl Tori Stafford starts charity bike trek next week

http://www.canadaeast.com/news/article/744324

:rose:

Jester

07-30-2009, 04:02 AM

Father of murdered Ont. girl Tori Stafford starts charity bike trek next week

http://www.canadaeast.com/news/article/744324

:rose:

So he's arriving in Alberta around September 5?

Who in Alberta knows he's doing this?

n/t

07-30-2009, 09:26 AM

So he's arriving in Alberta around September 5?

Who in Alberta knows he's doing this?

I don't know Jester. I'm hoping local and national media will report it.

n/t

07-30-2009, 09:27 AM

Family set to say goodbye

Sixteen weeks after she was cruelly stolen from a Woodstock street, Victoria "Tori" Stafford has now come home.

The eight-year-old's remains were finally returned to her grieving family this week from Toronto's Centre for Forensic Sciences, marking the end to the saddest chapter in this heart-wrenching story.

http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1679457

RIP Tori :rose:

n/t

07-30-2009, 09:29 AM

From the link above, they're still looking for the grey seat.

Investigators are continuing their search for the rear grey cloth-covered seat from the 2003 Honda Civic that police believe was used in the abduction of the little girl.

north-eh

07-30-2009, 10:12 AM

Thanks n/t I was just coming to post the link. :seeya:

I will never forget you Victoria, may you now rest. :rose:
N

moonlite

07-31-2009, 02:33 AM

From the link above, they're still looking for the grey seat.

Greetings'
N/T'

Thanks so much for the link and update. I hope they can find the back seat too. I really believe the police force have really done a good job regarding Tori's case.

I have a question the court appearances in August. Now is that where TLM & MR enter pleas? I'm still trying to understand the Canadian system.

Moonlite

Hope4Tori

07-31-2009, 10:13 PM

Here is Victoria (Tori) Elizabeth Marie Stafford's obituary which is posted as "August 1, 2009" (tomorrow's date).

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=306&x=obituaries&xid=56523#56523

"STAFFORD, Victoria "Tori" Elizabeth Marie - An angel taken from her family and community on April 8, 2009 at the age of 8 years old. Tori will be forever missed by her father Rodney Stafford (Whitney E. Roth) and lovingly remembered by her mother Tara McDonald and her husband James Goris. Loved Sissy of Daryn "Duder" Stafford. Beloved granddaughter of Linda Winters and her late husband Robert (2007), Jim and Sharon McDonald, Doreen Graichen, Mark Stafford and Darlene and Dave Goris and great granddaughter of Frank Webb. Loved niece of John McDonald (Laurel), Rob Stafford, Randi Millen (Steve), Rebecca Nichols (Nathan), Russell Edmonds (Natasha) Matthew Stafford and Jennifer Goris. Special goddaughter to Shawn and Barb Derbowka. Predeceased by her uncle Scott McDonald (2008). Tori was a student at Oliver Stephens Public School and attended Sunday School at College Ave. Church in Woodstock. She will be missed by all who knew her and remembered by the many hearts and minds of her local, national and world wide community. A private family service was held at the Longworth Funeral Home, Woodstock, 519-539-0004. Contributions in memory of Tori may be made to Child Find Canada and may be arranged at www.longworthfuneralhome.com
Posted on 2009-08-01"

BBM - I am presuming the private service has now taken place.

May Tori rest in peace and love eternally! :wub:And may all her loved ones, especially her brave big brother, Daryn :wub:, be filled with happy and enduring memories of their beloved little one, Tori!:wub: