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07-24-2009, 08:03 PM

New Jackson Docs -- Millions Recovered

Posted Jul 24th 2009 5:50PM by TMZ Staff

Michael JacksonWe've now obtained documents filed yesterday in the Michael Jackson probate case.

The Special Administrators have recovered $5.5 million in cash from a former financial advisor. The documents do not name the advisor.

In the documents, the administrators predict Jackson has enough cash to pay off his estimated $400 million in debts -- and still have money left over for his heirs.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/Michael-jackson-probate-death-millions/

aproudmom

07-24-2009, 08:06 PM

anyone watching NG TMZ is saying this women is also linked to doctor Klein..no link just heard it on NG

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 08:06 PM

<snipped>
IF that one doctor went on tour with him in the 90's I am sorry he should also be questioned the ones who picked them up for him in their own name should be looked at I do not care who he is MJ or Joe the plumber...JMO

I also think his "treatment" can't be excused by the fact he had a mini clinic with him.

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 08:09 PM

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 08:17 PM

<snipped>

Joe Jackson has talked about filing wrongful death suit. If that eventually happens, and damages are awarded, those monies will go to the estate right? Actually, I believe 100% of any damages should go to his children, and his children alone, but that probably won't happen.

IMO

A civil lawsuit for wrongful death would be ridiculous imo. Damages from the doctor in debt? -- Peanuts compared to the estate.

Moreover it's useless. Michael Jackson can't be revived by a lawsuit.

crazymama

07-24-2009, 08:17 PM

Naive .... or arrogant .... or desperate (for money). Or some combination of the three.

----
Yes, and these drugs prescribed, or illegal affect your
thinking and reasoning permantly. Well look at Ozzie.
You you imagine him loose for long.

aproudmom

07-24-2009, 08:40 PM

ok I am not hearing stuff the reporter on NG said this Stacey Howe works for Dr Klein if true that is why the emails of hers was taken from the search I guess..if true..
I can not get TMZ to open but pretty sure they said they reported it for some reason it is running very slow..

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 08:44 PM

IMO That's not the reason for his not having been buried yet. Ya simply dig down a few extra feet, lower the casket in the vault and back a cement mixer up to the hole and pour a few feet of concrete. No big deal.

It's not the missing brain either, IMO

I don't think it is that simple.

Elvis's family thought that is all they had to do is seal Elvis up in concrete and marble in a crypt and that would be that and he would be secure where no one would even think about tampering with it, however; they were wrong and wound up having to move him where he could be on his own property with security guards there at all times.

Some people can become ghoulish and cuckoo when it comes to icons.

They will bury him when they think the place and time is right. They have dug up coffins of people who have been buried for over 30 years and they were in pristine shape. This is just MJs earthly body anyway and imo his spirit has long passed on....

For all we know he could have been buried the day of the memorial.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 08:53 PM

Hi aproudmom -- not on TMZ yet but check this out:

We've now obtained documents filed yesterday in the Michael Jackson probate case.

The Special Administrators have recovered $5.5 million in cash from a former financial advisor. The documents do not name the advisor.

In the documents, the administrators predict Jackson has enough cash to pay off his estimated $400 million in debts -- and still have money left over for his heirs.

The docs also say Jackson's children are the beneficiaries of an insurance trust established by Michael Jackson. The proceeds have not yet been collected, which explains why lawyers for Katherine Jackson have asked for a temporary allowance.

The Special Administrators expect to generate tens of millions of dollars of revenue from various business deals that are now in the works.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/24/Michael-jackson-probate-death-millions/

WOW! I had a feeling these Administrators were very sharp and they sure haven't let any grass grow under their feet. Already collectimg millions that was owed to MJ. Good for them!

I sure would like to know how much that insurance trust is. I bet it is huge.

No telling how much money MJ is going to make posthumously. It may even top what Lisa has gotten since Elvis died.

imo

vonna

07-24-2009, 08:53 PM

I agree. It was Joe Jackson who mentioned it. Would the Doctor's malpractice insurance cover this? That might not look like small peanuts to Joe Jackson.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think of Joe Jackson getting any money from his son's death via a wrongful death action.

Couldn't agree more. It would be obscene.

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 08:57 PM

Tho..you cant excuse what Dr. Ratner did..at least he was qualified and didnt kill his patient( MJ)......Unethical..yep..but what else could he be held accountable for?..Sure..Hate the guy..at least he followed protocol..and protected his patient from himself..unfortunate for MJ..he got a false sense of security after that experience..and Paid for his miscalculation!

LMS

I never said he could / should be held accountable.

All I wanted to say is that his "mini clinic" didn't guarantee a "treatment" free of risks. I've never heard before that anesthesia drugs are used for a sleep therapy but for surgery only.

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 08:59 PM

Are they investigating the pharmacies who filled the prescriptions. Seems to me the pharmacist who billed MJ $100K in a two year period should definitely be investigated and prosecuted:

Pharmacist’s Guide to Prescription Fraud

Your Responsibilities

The abuse of prescription drugs—especially controlled substances—is a serious social and health problem in the United States today. As a healthcare professional, you share responsibility for solving the prescription drug abuse and diversion problem.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/pubs/manuals/pharm2/appendix/appdx_o.htm

And what if the prices were totally off the wall that he had to pay? Did they fill them because they knew they could name their price for them since it wasn't going through any insurance company?

imo

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 09:01 PM

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 09:04 PM

I was thinking today, ( scary I know lol) anyone see The Cider House Rules? Remember the kindly doctor had a ether addiction? I'm thinking abusing these types of drugs has been going on for a long time in medical circles.

Yes, I know it was just a book....and movie

I don't know the movie.

I've never heard before about the use of anesthesia drugs for different purposes than surgery. But you could be right, for sure.

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 09:05 PM

Tonight's CBS News featured a brief report on Diprivan addiction.

Ben Tracy reported on the incidence of abuse, mainly within the medical community.

He talked about addicts who would self inject 50-70 times per day and experienced a sense of euphoria from the drug.

<snipped>

50 - 70 times per day....? :sad:

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 09:07 PM

I wonder how they came up with that 5.5M in cash too?? Lot of cash to be just lying around. Maybe that is the missing money LaToya was referring to although she said $2M??? JMO

I thought about that. These guys seem to really know who they are dealing with and looking for and how to locate them. They must have demanded cash because maybe cash was taken.

I am just happy that they seem very sharp financial/estate lawyers and also I am sure they know all of the people in question too as the Admns. have known MJ a long time. I think that is giving them an edge. They know who to look at and where they are.

I have a feeling they will be collecting even more money owed to MJ from those that may have tried to scam MJ.

imo

RootBeer

07-24-2009, 09:53 PM

I just read it! Unbelievable. I'm with ya on the Little House on the Prairie/Leave it to Beaver/Andy Griffith life.

I did have to laugh at Dr. Nostrum. Made me think of Kramer's Dr. Van Nostrum. (sp?).

Here, have my other gold star.

Don't forget "The Waltons". I still have a serious crush on John Boy/Richard Thomas.

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=Richard+Thomas

sorry o/t

RootBeer

07-24-2009, 09:54 PM

Oh..my Lord..the "Man in the Hat"..a Jackson insider..wishes to keep on claiming conspiracy theory..like "Someone wants the "Beatles Album" or whatever..geesh..give me a break..If this joker believes this..then how in the heck if this "Album" is already in "Trust" would murdering MJ do for conspirators..Geesh this "Hat Guy" is a joke..Name starts with a C..and dont care to even entertain his input!! All this crappolla was on JVM show.HLN..

LMS:cursing:

I missed it. :mad:

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 09:58 PM

I am sorry. I missed your posts --didn't go back far enough but just read them both.

IMO Dr Klein lied by omission since reading that transcript he made it sound like he only told MJ that it was dangerous; that he wouldn't do it in the home (but LKL didn't ask him if he did it in someone else's office for a minor procedure). Klein is up to his neck in this. JMO

Want to add on Dr. Klein:

Michael Jackson doctor went too far

"... we might be vulnerable to a charge of violating federal health privacy laws, a punishable offense.

These laws stem from 1990s legislation known as the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act or HIPAA. Basically, the law forbids medical professionals from disclosing health information unless a patient provides consent to do so."

"What made it even more unusual was that on June 30, Klein's attorney, Richard Charnley, released a statement requesting privacy that directly referenced HIPAA:

"Dr. Klein is aware of media reports connecting him to Michael Jackson. Because of patient confidentiality, Dr. Klein will make no statement on any reports or allegations. Out of respect for his patients and adherence to federal HIPAA regulations, Dr. Klein asks that the media not contact him or his patients, nor interfere with their medical treatments. Like millions of Michael's fans around the world, Dr. Klein is saddened by Michael's death and extends his condolences to the family.""

"Whatever the case, Klein most certainly violated something fundamental -- common decency. A dead man's supposedly close friend, a doctor, goes on prime-time TV to eulogize him."

http://www.salon.com/env/vital_signs/2009/07/13/dr_arnold_klein/

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 10:13 PM

------------------
Addicts would self inject 50-70 times a day? hmmmmmm............so
MJ could have injected himself also. imo

... and what for did he have a personal doctor then?

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 10:17 PM

------------------
Addicts would self inject 50-70 times a day? hmmmmmm............so
MJ could have injected himself also. imo

The majority of these type of addicts are in the medical field.

It makes no sense that MJ would inject himself when he had a 150K a month doctor to do so.

imo

who_is_it

07-24-2009, 10:18 PM

------------
i said MAYBE. no clue why he had a doctor.......do u know? jmo

No, I don't know... but what I believe is that he was there to administer the anesthesia drugs.

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 10:19 PM

No, I don't know... but what I believe is that he was there to administer the anesthesia drugs.

And to monitor him while he was sleeping.

imo

tiptop

07-24-2009, 10:26 PM

And to monitor him while he was sleeping.

imo

What I dont understand is, what was Michael getting out of all this?

If you are in a deep sleep and cant remember anything, is it just the fact that he was out for a certain period of time and didnt have to deal with reality? I tend to think that was it in his case. So many creditors. So many people wanting so much from him. Who wouldnt want to sleep for days on end? He couldnt possible be getting any kind of high from it, could he? But yet we hear what a great dad he was. I dunno - it's all very confusing. IMO

tiptop

07-24-2009, 10:38 PM

I agree, and, as I said, I'm not suggesting that MJ was injecting himself, or abusing Propofol to the extent that the addicts in the articles were.

Just showing how dangerous this drug is. Especially to someone who has had past problems with dependence on prescription drugs.

Gentle Breeze, I think you and I exchanged posts yesterday concerning who, when, how, and how many Doctors introduced/encouraged the use of Diprivan, and whether or not any of them may have had personal experience with it.

We know that at least 2 medical professionals who were trying to help Michael -- Cherilyn Lee and Deepak Chopra -- discouraged the use of this drug.

IMO

But unfortunately the two who discouraged Michael were in the minority. And they were not enough to save him perhaps. Guess we will soon find out what is what. Its like Elvis and so many other famous folks. These doctors and friends have a choice. Do as they are expected to do, or be banished from the fold. And most dont want to give up the glamour and privileges of it all. So they enable. IMO

tiptop

07-24-2009, 10:48 PM

These are just MY thoughts. When you sleep and are not in a deep sleep chances are he may have been having bad dreams, racing thoughts, etc. What I believe the diprivan did was induce a coma (which meant it had to be continuous which is why the Dr had to be there) so that this would not happen and he would not remember anything. IMO he was terrified to go to sleep for whatever his reasons were. JMO

Well, I was thinking along these lines as well.

I've read some of the links here, and I still cant figure out what the "high" was other than being knocked completely out. And for someone who was constantly being hounded by creditors, promotors, etc - well, maybe it was just what he needed.

How horrible - most of us view sleep as a refresher; a state to dream and relax and rejuvinate. I cannot imagine not wanting to sleep normally. If this was the case, we had something this King of Pop did not. Most of us can rest and relax without the need of hardcore sleep aids. JMO

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 10:51 PM

Tonite on JVM...........one of the TH said something interesting..........and that is ....if MJ was getting ths dipravin so freely from Dr.Murray, then why was he begging the nurse for it.

Because Murray wasn't his doctor when MJ was seeing the nurse practitioner from January thru April, 09.

He came on the scene in May and had only been in the home for 11 days before MJ passed away.

imo

tiptop

07-24-2009, 11:08 PM

I think anyone that has any abnormal stress in their lives can relate to this. Although not quite the same but even the job I had caused me to jump out of bed because of racing thoughts; or thinking if I had forgotten to do something that day, etc or having nightmares. I just think it happened to him much more often than the average person and let's be real - this 50 year old man was coming out of a 15 year lapse of performing; had money issues up the ying yang and I believe was absolutely terrified of meeting a 50 date schedule. JMO

I hear ya, but I cant imagine anyone of us having the stress and strife he had. I have done tons of different drugs in my early days yet never have I wanted to sleep for days on end. Especially with children. Not judging him, just trying to point out that there was something out of the ordinary going on here.

One thing I did like and remember about Halperin's book Unmasked was.....he said Michael had around 200 music recordings as well as home movies Michael had recorded and art work too. And these were things to support his kids in the future. I hope his kids are provided for. And I hope he had the sense to prepare them for all this that is yet to come. JMO

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:16 PM

I think some of those talking heads need to read this board for their news casts and for updated information. I can't believe half of what they post and they are so far behind us and what we have found out. Gosh I remember some of the tabloid articles were debunked but they were still reporting the info days later. This has been going on for years and years. I don't trust anything they report anymore. Unbelievable. They should all take a lesson from Walter Cronkite. JMO

Just when I think the media cant sink any lower they prove me wrong time and time again.:sad:

imo

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:28 PM

I think I understand the "high."

I'm extremely sensitive. Don't smoke, drink, none of that stuff. Have had strange reactions to "normal" prescription drugs.

There have been times when I have had general anesthesia (which I avoid whenever possible) where I have experienced a "rush" for the few seconds that elapse as one loses consciousness. It was like nothing I've ever felt. I'm equating that to some of the sensations of euphoria described in the articles.

It leads me to believe that these anesthesiologists are aware of the potential for that euphoric rush, and have figured out how to abuse Propofol so that they can experience it over and over again by going under, regaining consciousness, going under, regaining consciousness, over and over again. Since Propofol is so short acting, it would be one of the only anesthetics, if not the only anesthetic, that would allow itself to be manipulated in this fashion. From my own experience, I can see what attraction that might hold for an addict.

I could be entirely wrong, but I was so intrigued by the entire thing that I've been trying to figure it out too. I hope this wasn't too much personal information.

Again, I have no idea if MJ experienced that brief "high" when going under, and if that might have been one of his attractions to the drug, in addition to the state of oblivion it provided.

Please know I am not passing judgment on MJ, but, rather trying to understand. IF he was psychologically addicted, it makes more sense to me than if he was using a very dangerous drug, and risking his life, just to sleep. Especially since there are other options.

Again, just my opinion. Just curious, has anyone else ever experienced that "rush" I've described when being put under anesthesia? The drug that caused it for me was Brevital, another short acting anesthetic.

I really don't know Zeny.

I did watch on Fox News the other day where one of their reporters allowed Fox to video him being put under with diprivan in a doctor's office. He had to have some procedure done to his face, iirc. They showed him being given the drip and within seconds his head was rolling to the side, he may have been able to speak two or three slurred words. I think they timed how long it took for him to go under and it was 12 seconds. So if it is for a rush it sure must be a very short lived one.

I have had diprivan once. I felt some burning, then all I can remember is waking up quite clear minded and not with a hungover drugged out feeling. I did not feel a rush.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:33 PM

--------------

Then who was the doctor that administered the diprivan to him when he was doing his concert tours?

You mean back in the 90s in Germany?

I cant remember his name but he was a licensed anesthesiologist.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:40 PM

---
yes....thats what i was talking about.

I am sure his name is in the thread somewhere Buzzzzzz but I am too tired and sleepy to look for it now. Maybe you can do a search and find his name.

imo

tiptop

07-24-2009, 11:43 PM

-------------------
True.....it makes no sense. But nothing makes sense in all of this. Maybe MJ was getting the dipravin from someone other than Dr. Murray........ while injecting himself...........and wanted the doctor around just to watch him. But little good that did. jmo

True - nothing makes sense here. Personally, I dont see Michael doing much of anything himself. That includes injecting drugs. I think the more drugs you do, the more paranoid you get. I think he wanted these things - wanted someone to give them to him -- and wanted someone to babysit him while he did them. That was the justification in his mind. Yes - he was doing these things - but he had a doctor watching him. And nothing could go wrong because of that........ JMO

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:46 PM

-------------------
True.....it makes no sense. But nothing makes sense in all of this. Maybe MJ was getting the dipravin from someone other than Dr. Murray........ while injecting himself...........and wanted the doctor around just to watch him. But little good that did. jmo

I don't think so. He wouldn't have been asking the nurse practitioner for it as late as April if he already had it and someone to administer it for him.

I don't think there will be any evidence that MJ was injecting himself.

Frankly I think Murray made incriminating statements the first time they talked with him.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-24-2009, 11:48 PM

It's my understanding that it was a Dr. Ratner.

Is he still in business and from CA?

imo

tiptop

07-24-2009, 11:51 PM

It seems now MJ has been addicted to Diprivan for many years. jmo

How has he been getting it?

I am not doubting it, just wondering how it has been dispensed.

tiptop

07-24-2009, 11:57 PM

------------
When an addict needs a fix, they will do what it takes and IMO if it means injecting yourself, one would do it. IMO

Well, maybe. But I have known people who solely depend on others because they cannot inject themselves. Swallow a pill, smoke something --- absolutely. But inject, no way. An "addict" label doesnt necessarily mean that person will do anything. IMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:08 AM

----------------

ok...........i'll change it from addict to drug addicted. geesh jmo

lol - wow, you're easy....

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:12 AM

IIRC the detectives were questioning the nurse about seeing injection marks on MJ. She said that after being questioned by them. She said she hadn't seen any. Just wondering why they would be asking if injection marks weren't on him. The nurse made it sound like they were referring to multiple injection marks. jmo

I'm thinking that this is something we may never know. With two autopies (that we know of) - well, does the public have a legal right to know anything? I think there will be what really is and was ---- and that which the public will be informed of. And they will probably be two separate and different outcomes. IMO

Unperson1984

07-25-2009, 12:18 AM

What I dont understand is, what was Michael getting out of all this?

If you are in a deep sleep and cant remember anything, is it just the fact that he was out for a certain period of time and didnt have to deal with reality? I tend to think that was it in his case. So many creditors. So many people wanting so much from him. Who wouldnt want to sleep for days on end? He couldnt possible be getting any kind of high from it, could he? But yet we hear what a great dad he was. I dunno - it's all very confusing. IMO

Could there be a simpler explanation, perhaps MJ was using amphetamines and needed the propofol to come down from the amphetamines. There was a vial of an amphetamine seized in the warrant executed in Texas, it's an odd drug for a cardiologist to have, and it would explain MJ's extreme thinness.

It's possible, IMO.

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 12:21 AM

I've been intrigued by the possibility of Michael Jackson having a "love child"; and the possibility that "blanket" shares the same mother.

Any thoughts?

moo

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:34 AM

Could there be a simpler explanation, perhaps MJ was using amphetamines and needed the propofol to come down from the amphetamines. There was a vial of an amphetamine seized in the warrant executed in Texas, it's an odd drug for a cardiologist to have, and it would explain MJ's extreme thinness.

It's possible, IMO.

I suppose anything is possible, but MJ has been thin his whole life. I dont know if we can attribute that to Propofol/amphetamines. JMO

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 12:38 AM

That is a thought that has crossed my mind as well. I started to wonder after seeing the rehearsal video. I was pretty surprised at how this 50 year old man, who was said to be so sickly, could move like that. It could also explain why he couldn't get his brain to turn off.

*shrug*

I may be the only person on earth that viewed MJ's final video in this way. He appeared to have difficulty breathing and not really singing; but rather lip syncing.
With respect to his dancing; the clip I saw did not show MJ doing anything exceptional at all, nothing like his past performances.

moo

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:40 AM

That is a thought that has crossed my mind as well. I started to wonder after seeing the rehearsal video. I was pretty surprised at how this 50 year old man, who was said to be so sickly, could move like that. It could also explain why he couldn't get his brain to turn off.

*shrug*

I've only seen the one video of him moving around with other guys. They slowly lift their legs in the videos I've seen. And salute like soldiers. And he is with the female guitar player. Are there other videos of Michael moving faster? I have to admit I was surprised at what little I saw. He was barely moving and yet this man was supposed to do 50 shows? JMO

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 12:42 AM

FYI, I have used sedation dentistry. During my last surgery I clearly remember the doctor telling me to keep breathing.

I'm glad that I was monitored so closely; as it is beginning to appear that MJ may have not been monitored closely enough...

moo

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:43 AM

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:47 AM

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 12:47 AM

What did they give you tinkerbell?

My doctor's office lists a number of alternatives; Diprivan being one. My oral surgeon was also a licensed anesthesiologist. I had an IV, and was hooked up to oxygen, blood pressure and heart monitors. The doc also weighed me prior to surgery; much to my chagrin.

moo

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:49 AM

My doctor's office lists a number of alternatives; Diprivan being one. My oral surgeon was also a licensed anesthesiologist. I had an IV, and was hooked up to oxygen, blood pressure and heart monitors. The doc also weighed me prior to surgery; much to my chagrin.

moo

So you dont know exactly what they gave you?

tiptop

07-25-2009, 12:52 AM

Pan the critics. MJ was rehearsing. It was a rehearsal late at night. It wasn't a performance for his fans...once again it was a 'rehearsal'

So he could be out of breath at a rehearsal but not at the performance in your opinion?

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 12:57 AM

I also noticed a part where it seemed he was out of breath, but thought so would I if I was doing the same thing. Other than that, I thought he looked pretty dam good. I've seen a lot of people his age or even youger looking a lot worse, and moving a lot slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c4DoQrnnos&feature=popular

at around 31 second mark, he seems to be taking deep breaths through his mouth....

moo

Mamie

07-25-2009, 01:00 AM

Seems MJ had everyone on his shoulders. So much blame to go around including MJ himself for not just putting his foot down. I think his self-esteem was so low he took love anyway he could get it. I also believe that is why he surrounded himself with children -- so he could just relax and be free without being judged. JMO

I agree with you on him having everyone on his shoulders. I have thought a lot about this since it happened and it was the guilt, in my opinion, that got to him. He left the group behind----years ago----because that's the way BGordy wanted it. BG only wanted Michael. He could see the ever-changing future with not only MJ in it, but MJ creating the changes and that called for leaving the other four Jacksons behind----which very much angered Joe. And you can see that at family gatherings or whenever the situation presented itself, how comments could make MJ, a very impressionable young man, feel very guilty. Thus came the promises to the family that they'd never have to worry about being taken care of. That was the only way to relieve some of the guilt he felt and that still didn't do it.

I don't know any of this to be true, it is just supposition on my part but boy, it sure fits. Again, JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:01 AM

I would imagine that all dancers have trained themselves how to breath while performing. I don't think it unusual that when they stop dancing, it would be the time to breath. Like a swimmer might do.

I thought we were talking about Michael - not the dancers.

IMO, from what I saw, the dancers surrounding him looked to be in fabulous shape. Not out of breath. IMO

Unperson1984

07-25-2009, 01:04 AM

Maybe the Dr was taking them to keep himself up while he was monitoring MJ. Just a thought .... I think whatever drugs this Dr was giving to MJ including the diprivan if he were, were long removed from his office before this raid. It has been almost a month. I also believe that whatever those women took out of that storage unit the morning of MJ's death may have been incriminating evidence as well. JMO

IMO MJ has been thin all his life. I would attribute weight loss to the stress he was under preparing for this tour and not eating properly.

I would expect that a doctor's office would have more than two drugs, but IIRC they only seized two. Now factor in that the officers from LAPD know what drugs were found in both MJ's body and his house, and that makes the two they seized more interesting to consider.

IMHO

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 01:07 AM

So you dont know exactly what they gave you?

I thought I did; but here's the link:

http://www.vdaa.info/anesthesia_faqs.php

moo

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:07 AM

My point about breathing is this - Michael was in no shape to do 50 shows.

I wish he had been scheduled for the original 10. Or better still, maybe 5 shows. But his promoters were money-whores. And those around him tried to use him for every ounce they could. And that is what is so sad. He probably could have done 2 or 3 shows incredibly. But that didnt fit into the financial situation. IMO

tinkerbell

07-25-2009, 01:13 AM

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:16 AM

The dancers were surrounding him, but it was him who the camera was trained on. I don't recall seeing a close up of the dancers faces, so wouldn't know about how they breath. Also, my guess is when hiring a group of dancers, they are all likely to be well under 50 years of age. I find it pretty remarkable that anyone can dance and sing at the same time.

After hearing for days how sickly he was said to be, that he couldn't possibly perform, and then seeing the rehearsal video, I was blown away. It was the first time that his death made me cry. All I could think was how great he looked, and what a waste that he was dead.

Maybe we saw a different video of the dancers and Michael. The guys I saw around Michael looked around 25-ish. I saw their faces as they marched around the stage.

But excusing that, seeing Michael in that video makes me sad. I think death makes some more mushy, you know? I feel for his kids. Despite the thoughts about him, he has children left behind. And I feel for them. IMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:19 AM

MJ was the consumate performer. He knew how to monitor his breathing techniques during a rehearsal as opposed to a live performance. Most performers do.

Yeah, maybe 20 years ago and minus the drugs. JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:20 AM

I'll see if I can find the article again but most of the dancers were in their early 20's and some of them their first gig with a tour. Don't forget also that MJ has NOT performed like this in over 15 years. These dancers probably have been working out daily

BINGO! :biggrin:

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:32 AM

I feel for his children also. I'm not sure about death and feeling mushy. I felt profound sadness for his family, and for the way he had been treated, and for all that he had to endure during life. I felt angry at all the people who helped bring him down, who killed his spirit and then killed him completely.

Just like Elvis, so easy to blame others. But really, we are all responsible for ourselves. Despite what we want to believe, Michael probably enabled this. Just like Elvis, Johh Belushi, Chris Farley, and countless others before him. We may never know the true story, but I venture a guess that what Michael wanted, Michael got. And that ultimately was his downfall. JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:44 AM

Did you guys see the latest post about his death. I posted it above re: his death being classified as homicide. Just surprised no one has commented. :ohmy:

I guess I didnt repond because it doesnt surprise me.

I blame the docs who coudnt stay away but also Michael himself. If one doc wouldnt provide, I feel certain Michael would have found one who could. Its an unfortunate, sad quasi-suicide. JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 01:56 AM

It is a lot easier to blame others when the death is a homicide. It wouldn't be a homicide if there wasn't someone to blame, and someone who is a victim.

Did Michael get all that he wanted? For his entire life he wanted to heal the world, cure the hunger, bring comfort to the suffering. He wanted to rid the world of hate and replace it with love. He dedicated his life as well as record breaking amounts of money to help others less fortunate. His downfall was being a gentle and kind soul in a world who was out to destroy him.

imo...of course.

Yes, perhaps it will be ruled homocide. But do you really think that is what it is? This doc or that - troubled Michael would have found what he needed.....from this doc or that. Yes, by law that is probably what will come to pass. But ultimately he is his own enabler.

I keep going back to his kids. If he loved them so much, why did he do this to himself? Keep putting himself in harms way? The answer could lie in the anthem to a lost soul. I think his life was balanced between helping and hurting. Helping others and hurting himself. JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 02:07 AM

Quasi-suicide? Is that like being part pregnant? Addiction is an illness. I wish he had a near-death experience that would have perhaps made him seek help; sometimes that is the wake-up call he needed as that is what happened with my brother. I have true compassion for what happened to MJ and anyone else that goes through this. Just glad we never gave up on my brother :(

There was nothing suicidal about his death IMO. He hired a doctor who he thought he could trust to put him under and bring him out of a coma that erased all of the racing thoughts in his head. What I found interesting in the article is that there was no "drug overdose". JMO

IMO what he did resembles suicide. And that is what quasi-suicide means. He enabled those around him and apparently got what he wanted. Even if it meant his death. He knew perfectly well what he was doing. Do you think he was oblivious to the drugs he wanted? Of course not.

He committed professional suicide. Just like Elvis and others I have mentioned. I dont believe for one minute he didnt know the risks involved. Yeah, perhaps he trusted his docs. But that is the safety net for those who live on the edge like he did. And sometimes the net breaks. JMO

tiptop

07-25-2009, 02:09 AM

I personally believe his death rises to the level of 2nd degree murder. He didn't do this to himself. He didnt commit suicide, he died at the hands of another. He loved his kids, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he wasn't anything but an excellent Father. Maybe he was addicted to drugs, but he sure didn't look like we expect an addict to look like on the rehearsal tape. Many people have claimed a lot of things about his drug use, yet he passed a physical just weeks before.

The bottom line is that he didn't die of an accidental or intentional overdose, he was the victim of a homicide.

Do you think the doctor stepped in one day and said - hey, let me give you this drug and see how you like it? He passed a physical because it meant money for MANY people. IMO

Unperson1984

07-25-2009, 02:14 AM

I personally believe his death rises to the level of 2nd degree murder. He didn't do this to himself. He didnt commit suicide, he died at the hands of another. He loved his kids, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he wasn't anything but an excellent Father. Maybe he was addicted to drugs, but he sure didn't look like we expect an addict to look like on the rehearsal tape. Many people have claimed a lot of things about his drug use, yet he passed a physical just weeks before.

The bottom line is that he didn't die of an accidental or intentional overdose, he was the victim of a homicide.

I don't think it was the doctor's intent that MJ should die and that makes 2nd degree a tough charge to make stick.

tiptop

07-25-2009, 02:24 AM

I think everyone should be acquainted with how drug addiction starts and how it affects the brain and they cannot stop by themselves. Too bad the people around him were more interested in his $ than the person:

Perhaps the most tragic aspect of prescription drug addiction, is that if very often starts out as a legitimate backache, or pain and spirals out of control into full blown prescription drug addiction.

An inability to stop using the prescription medication is a characteristic of addiction. Although most people would stop using a prescription drug if they knew it had destructive consequences, an addicted person cannot. After prolonged use of an addictive substance, the brain virtually becomes “re-wired.” Accordingly, addicts are not simply weak-willed; they have differences in the way their brain reacts to drugs than do most people. Once started, they often cannot stop without help.

http://www.healthyplace.com/addictions/prescription-drugs/risk-factors-prescription-drug-addiction/menu-id-54/

Yes. But also some people have the "addiction gene," Some can try something and not want it again. But others get hooked immediately. There is no set remedy in my mind - it depends on the person and their support system. I have no clue about Michael and those very close to him. I am getting the picture that he was pretty much alone with his kids and had no one to tell him DO NOT DO THAT on a regular basis. So true that once they start they cannot stop without help IMO

Unperson1984

07-25-2009, 02:34 AM

I don't think Phil Spector intended for Lana to die, but his reckless behavior and disregard for human life resulted in him being charged and convicted of 2nd degree murder.

I know you are a lawyer, and have an educated understanding of the law, so I respect and value your opinion on this.

The difference is there is no benign or therapeutic use of a gun, any act of using a gun against a person is criminal. A doctor administering a medical drug is somewhat different.

On that note, I wish you all a good night.

My bed is warm, my pillows deep and now its time for me to sleep.

I love Dr Seuss

disneyfreak

07-25-2009, 02:58 AM

Hi UP,

You had asked about Stacy Howe earlier - I posted a link a couple of pages back. Turns out she works for Dr. Klein. Interesting because this connects Dr. Murray and Dr. Klein. There is also another article a couple of pages back where it was reported by a GYN next door that Dr. Klein used his office to give MJ diprivan for a minor acne problem. Sure would like to know what the connection was.

Interesting. I found this link from MSNBC
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32133053/ns/entertainment-music/

Authorities also took e-mails from and correspondence addressed to Stacey Howe. Records listed Howe as “administrator” at Murray’s Las Vegas business, Global Cardiovascular Associates Inc. Attempts to reach her Friday were unsuccessful.

I wonder if she left Klein's practice to continue on with Michael and Murray.

ETA: Sorry Athena. Posted this before I saw you post

ALL:

I have the doctors reversed. Stacy Howe works for Dr. Murray and sent emails to Dr. Klein thus the connection. The rest of it is correct. Sorry! :blushing: