7/16 -- Nine Doctors Who Treated Michael Jackson Under Investigation [Archive] - Page 2

lilismom

07-22-2009, 02:19 PM

DOCTORS OFFICE BEING RAIDED AS I TYPE THIS ON FOX NEW is the thread shutdown or what..it all says locked???

http://cbs3.com/topstories/michael.jackson.doctor.2.1096379.html

What I found most interesting here was the quote from Murray's attorney:

"Dr. Murray was the last doctor standing when Michael Jackson died and it seems all the fury is directed toward him," Chernoff said.

Seems to me that Dr. Murray took great pains to NOT be the last doctor standing when MJ died or he would have been pronounced at the house BY him. Was the trip to the hospital even necessary?

IMO,
Lilismom

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 02:19 PM

Hi lilman :seeya:

Yes - HLN said he would not come into talk to them so they went there but for them to raid the office has to be more to it but warrants are sealed so unless they are leaked ......

Do they know where the doctor is? I don't have the fed going.

aproudmom

07-22-2009, 02:22 PM

They found it alright.
I think it was found at the scene as well. I've read it is very difficult to detect in bloodstream. I figure they found traces in tissue samples and probably at the injection sites. JMO

Hi LIL
I think you could be right..just wonder if they are watching the doctor I hate to say this but his life was full of debt before this and if he could be facing charges I do worry about him doing something and not just running..I know any doctor should pay for giving this but could you imagine what your life would even be like with very angry fans of MJ his life is over more than likely over money I am sure

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 02:24 PM

I'm surprised live news stations are not covering as much as I thought they would. It's only covered between other stories.

in my opinion

Link to Houston Fox 1....page 2. They might have something

http://www.livenewscameras.com/

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:24 PM

http://cbs3.com/topstories/michael.jackson.doctor.2.1096379.html

What I found most interesting here was the quote from Murray's attorney:

"Dr. Murray was the last doctor standing when Michael Jackson died and it seems all the fury is directed toward him," Chernoff said.

Seems to me that Dr. Murray took great pains to NOT be the last doctor standing when MJ died or he would have been pronounced at the house BY him. Was the trip to the hospital even necessary?

IMO,
Lilismom

No I don't think it was, but what seems obvious is Dr Murry must not have agreed to sign the death certificate which triggered the autopsy.

I think Mr Jackson was dead at the home when rescue arrived. IIRC rescue wanted to pronounce him at the home, but Dr Murry wouldn't let them. He insisted they keep trying and transport him.

in my opinion

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 02:31 PM

IMO he did not want to be the one who signed MJ's death certificate in an attempt to avoid being connected to the actual death.

Boy, he sure miscalculated that one! IMO

lilismom

07-22-2009, 02:32 PM

IMO he did not want to be the one who signed MJ's death certificate in an attempt to avoid being connected to the actual death.

These warrants are sealed so doubt if we are going to hear anything anytime soon. JMO

Exactly. Which is why I wonder why his attorney would say he was the "last doctor standing". On the payroll? Perhaps. But he wasn't the last doctor that tended to MJ that day and he made darn sure of it.

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:35 PM

IMO he did not want to be the one who signed MJ's death certificate in an attempt to avoid being connected to the actual death.

These warrants are sealed so doubt if we are going to hear anything anytime soon. JMO

I don't think it matters if he signed or not. He was going to be connected as the doctor of record either way.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:38 PM

Exactly. Which is why I wonder why his attorney would say he was the "last doctor standing". On the payroll? Perhaps. But he wasn't the last doctor that tended to MJ that day and he made darn sure of it.

IMO,
Lilismom

Last doctor standing in a whole string of doctors who was involved in Mr Jackson's treatment over the years. He was the last doctor of record for Mr Jackson.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:44 PM

Boy, he sure miscalculated that one! IMO

Katie, he would still be connected whether he signed or not. He was present when Mr Jackson died and was the doctor of record. Not signing the death certificate would have made no difference.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:46 PM

I think we know that but he did NOT WANT to sign that death certificate as it would have been an admission that MJ died on HIS watch.

Athena, don't take this personally, but that's silly. He was there. Do you know why doctor's sign death certificates and why they don't?

in my opinion

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 02:46 PM

Wonder who these people are that just entered the area of Dr. Murray's office and he camera keeps panning in on them??

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream4

Hmm, almost a month later they raid the place. Wonder what they will find, if anything.

lilismom

07-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Last doctor standing in a whole string of doctors who was involved in Mr Jackson's treatment over the years. He was the last doctor of record for Mr Jackson.

in my opinion

Oh I agree. He didn't want to be known as the doc that ultimately failed to revive him/killed him/drugged him/over medicated him, etc. And IMO, there is a reason. Imagine what was going on in that house before EMT's arrived? Chaos I bet. OMG. Michael Jackson is dead. And on my watch. Not that I don't think MJ is partly responsible for his own death if the anesthesia killed him or any combination of other medication which he doctor shopped to get, but this doc was there to watch him, to be there in the event of an emergency situation. Particularly THIS situation if he was being knocked out nightly. They both knew the risks and apparently MJ could afford to pay a doctor in need of cash to do it anyway. I could be way, way off. I guess we'll see.

IMO,
Lilismom

Nic99

07-22-2009, 02:53 PM

Perhaps you can enlighten me

The doctor did not sign the death certificate, which is protocol for a death that occurs under the watch of a physician. If the doctor does not provide the police with the details and circumstances surrounding the death and does not sign the death certificate, the case will be transferred to the coroner’s office, where it will be investigated as a homicide.

http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-298196.htm

Sorry but had to laugh at the link site: datehookup.com lol; some mighty fine people on that one.....:wub:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:53 PM

Perhaps you can enlighten me

The doctor did not sign the death certificate, which is protocol for a death that occurs under the watch of a physician. If the doctor does not provide the police with the details and circumstances surrounding the death and does not sign the death certificate, the case will be transferred to the coroner’s office, where it will be investigated as a homicide.

http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-298196.htm

Doctors will sign a death certificate if they know for sure what killed a person. If the doctor don't sign, it triggers an autopsy to find out. Seems to me he would have signed if he wanted to avoid an autopsy and cover himself for something.

in my opinion

lilismom

07-22-2009, 02:55 PM

Katie, he would still be connected whether he signed or not. He was present when Mr Jackson died and was the doctor of record. Not signing the death certificate would have made no difference.

in my opinion

I don't know the legalities of who signs what and when but my feeling is that this doc did not want to be the one to have had MJ die on his watch. He wanted him transported to the hospital so that he could say "see, I did all I could for him, THEY couldn't revive him either". Wasn't my fault kind of thing.

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Sorry but had to laugh at the link site: datehookup.com lol; some mighty fine people on that one.....:wub:

LOL, I didn't look at the link.

in my opinion

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 02:58 PM

lilismom

07-22-2009, 03:00 PM

Doctors will sign a death certificate if they know for sure what killed a person. If the doctor don't sign, it triggers an autopsy to find out. Seems to me he would have signed if he wanted to avoid an autopsy and cover himself for something.

in my opinion

In that moment or 30 moments before 911 was called, I don't think he was thinking about anything other than getting the death itself off of his hands.

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:00 PM

In a death involving a patient under the care of several physicians, the Medical Examiner has no official role in determining which physician is responsible for signing the death certificate and, certainly,
will not take jurisdiction due a death certificate signing dispute between physicians.

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=signing+death+certificate&fr=slv8-tyc7&u=www.miamidade.gov/medexam/library/Private_MD_Responsibilities.pdf&w=signing+sign+signs+death+certificate+certificate s&d=KtgZ7hlMTGKy&icp=1&.intl=us

I don't know if there was a dispute between doctors, but I doubt it.

Since Dr Murry was there and his last doctor of record, I would think he was asked and said no so it triggered the autopsy.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:02 PM

You would think but I'm not sure he is the sharpest knife in the drawer!

I didn't say he was. Doctors know those rules real good though. lol

lilismom

07-22-2009, 03:03 PM

I don't know if there was a dispute between doctors, but I doubt it.

Since Dr Murry was there and his last doctor of record, I would think he was asked and said no so it triggered the autopsy.

in my opinion

Anyone know if the doctor rode in the ambulance with MJ? Did the EMT's themselves ever treat him at the scene or on the way? Do they only know what was told to them by Dr. Murray - i.e. - he has a faint pulse, let's get on the road to the hospital?

IMO,
Lilismom

aproudmom

07-22-2009, 03:05 PM

http://cbs3.com/topstories/michael.jackson.doctor.2.1096379.html

What I found most interesting here was the quote from Murray's attorney:

"Dr. Murray was the last doctor standing when Michael Jackson died and it seems all the fury is directed toward him," Chernoff said.

Seems to me that Dr. Murray took great pains to NOT be the last doctor standing when MJ died or he would have been pronounced at the house BY him. Was the trip to the hospital even necessary?

IMO,
Lilismom

I think they found it odd he would not even sign it at the hospital his lawyers said it was because he was the one that told them to get a autopsy of their own...and no they did not want to take him In to the hospital the doctor told them to...the EMT knew he was flat lined and gone by the time they got there..but the doc told them to keep trying..

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:05 PM

I don't know the legalities of who signs what and when but my feeling is that this doc did not want to be the one to have had MJ die on his watch. He wanted him transported to the hospital so that he could say "see, I did all I could for him, THEY couldn't revive him either". Wasn't my fault kind of thing.

IMO,
Lilismom

The autopsy will show exactly who was at fault. How he looked to others won't matter and I'm sure he knew that.

in my opinion

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 03:06 PM

Doctors will sign a death certificate if they know for sure what killed a person. If the doctor don't sign, it triggers an autopsy to find out. Seems to me he would have signed if he wanted to avoid an autopsy and cover himself for something.

in my opinion

DR M would not have signed that death certificate if a team of Special Ops were standing over him guns drawn. MOO
MJ'S body riddled with needle marks and IV drugs laying around. :thumbdown:

Not to mention this DR performing CPR on a bed to a dead person. EMT'S arrived to a flatlined MJ.
Don't hike your leg on me and tell me its raining. :thumbdown:
I suspected this DR from DAY ONE. MOO

One thing we know for a fact:
Dirprivan/Propofol cannot be self administered. At least not a fatal dose. A person would fall over before they could inject enough to kill them.
And I personally do not believe MJ would have had the stomach to ever inject himself with anything. MOO

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:07 PM

Anyone know if the doctor rode in the ambulance with MJ? Did the EMT's themselves ever treat him at the scene or on the way? Do they only know what was told to them by Dr. Murray - i.e. - he has a faint pulse, let's get on the road to the hospital?

IMO,
Lilismom

Rescue continued to treat him and Dr Murry rode in the ambulance to the hospital treating him also.

in my opinion

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 03:09 PM

It was said that EMT'S wanted to call the Coroner after they arrived.
MJ was dead then.

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 03:10 PM

Rescue continued to treat him and Dr Murry rode in the ambulance to the hospital treating him also.

in my opinion

Resued continued at the doctors request. Jackson was dead before they arrived. IMO

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:10 PM

I think Dr Murray was disputing it!

Personally, I think he was scared out of his mind! Saw his life flash before his eyes kinda scared. imo

I agree with that.

in my opinion

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 03:12 PM

I didn't say he was. Doctors know those rules real good though. lol

At least they should LOL

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:13 PM

I think they found it odd he would not even sign it at the hospital his lawyers said it was because he was the one that told them to get a autopsy of their own...and no they did not want to take him In to the hospital the doctor told them to...the EMT knew he was flat lined and gone by the time they got there..but the doc told them to keep trying..

When he wouldn't sign it triggerd an autopsy.

in my opinion

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 03:13 PM

Would you happen to have a link for that?

Not disagreeing with ya...happen to agree but I was unable to source it. I thought it may have been just gossip.

I heard it on FOX and CNN the afternoon MJ died. I guess you can research on their sites, because they sure were saying it. HTH

Nic99

07-22-2009, 03:15 PM

When he wouldn't sign it triggerd an autopsy.

in my opinion

Which means he signed his own 'go to jail' card imo:huh:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:16 PM

Resued continued at the doctors request. Jackson was dead before they arrived. IMO

Rescue's opinion was he was dead when they arrived, but a medical doctor on the scene told them to continue and they did.

in my opinion

flipflop

07-22-2009, 03:16 PM

Here is another article about the raid

Feds Raid Dr. Conrad Murray's Office
Posted Jul 22nd 2009 12:03PM by TMZ Staff

We've learned the Houston office of Dr. Conrad Murray is currently being raided by federal authorities ... and we've learned they are looking specifically for all medical records relating to Michael Jackson.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/22/dr-conrad-murrays-office-raided/

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 03:17 PM

There would have been an autopsy no matter what. Even if the DC was signed. JMO

The family would have had a private one, just like they did.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:18 PM

Which means he signed his own 'go to jail' card imo:huh:

It's beginning to look that way. I thought diprivan wouldn't be found in the tox report all along because of the doctor's actions. I guess we still don't know for sure if it was. We will see.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:20 PM

Do you think he was thinking clearly at the time he refused? I don't. IMO He was probably worried about the mess he made in his pants! j/k But I think he was too scared to think straight.

He may have been. I think he would have signed to stop an autopsy if he was guilty of anything or he just wasn't thinking.

in my opinion

aproudmom

07-22-2009, 03:21 PM

Jermaine plea to please leave MJ alone..on showbiz tonight

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:22 PM

There would have been an autopsy no matter what. Even if the DC was signed. JMO

The family would have had a private one, just like they did.

That's true.

in my opinion

VC2

07-22-2009, 03:22 PM

I take it from this, Diprivan must have been found in Mr. Jackson's body.
Who knows for sure though.

in my opinion

i agree. I don't think they would have done a full blown raid if it was just a question of writing MJ some scripts for painkillers. IF as almost all reports suggest (except ppl who simply won't believe anyone) he had lupus and vitiligo I think it would be far more complicated to do at this point in time. You would have to match dosages with what could be argued were legitimate amounts for someone who had a high tolerance. It would have to be checked with all other prescriptions, decide who might have legitimately and imo this is pretty fast.

but as you said..who knows.

VC2

07-22-2009, 03:29 PM

Athena, don't take this personally, but that's silly. He was there. Do you know why doctor's sign death certificates and why they don't?

in my opinion

They sign them if they know what the cause of death was and it was expected or at least not unexpected-for example thinking someone would die in a year but they die the next month of heart disease.

Murray, as panicked as he was, knew that to actually sign the death certificate would have been unethical in and of itself unless MJ had a terminal condition or an obvious accident that killed him. Even when drug overdoses are strongly suspected tdoctors rarely sign them because it is still an unexpected death and the question of deliberate or accidental still arises.

He really had no choice. If he signed it they would open an investigation even faster imo

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 03:33 PM

To me it would not have mattered if he had signed the DC or not. The Jackson family would have had an autopsy done to satisify their own questions.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:42 PM

Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyer, Ed Chernoff, just released a statement about today's raid at the doc's office -- saying law enforcement officials were searching for evidence "of the offense of manslaughter." "We can confirm that a search warrant was executed today on Dr. Murray's offices in Houston, Texas. We reviewed the warrant and remained on the premises while the search was being executed. The search was conducted by members of the DEA, two Robbery – Homicide detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department and Houston Police officers. The search warrant authorized law enforcement to search for and seize items, including documents, they believed constituted evidence of the offense of manslaughter. Law enforcement concluded their search around 12:30pm, and left with a forensic image of a business computer hard drive and 21 documents. None of the documents taken had previously been requested by law enforcement or the L.A. Coroner's office."

http://www.tmz.com/

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:43 PM

Jermaine plea to please leave MJ alone..on showbiz tonight

Oh, the irony. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

VC2

07-22-2009, 03:47 PM

I agree with that.

in my opinion

absolutely. It doesn't matter what the cause was, natural or not being the doctor on duty when one of the worlds biggest entertainers dies is going to cause panic. Unless he was 90 and expected to die.

i felt sorry for him the first few hours because i couldn't imagine any doctor including ethical ones finding MJ dead and not panicking trying to continue cpr far beyond the possibility of life.
\
now i think that he actually killed mj lol.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:49 PM

Detectives searched the Houston, Texas, medical office of Dr. Conrad Murray on Wednesday for "evidence of the offense of manslaughter," Murray's lawyer said. Officers stand outside the Houston, Texas, building where Dr. Conrad Murray has an office. The search warrant "services part of the ongoing investigation into the death of Michael Jackson," a Los Angeles Police spokesman said. The DEA was assisting Los Angeles, California, police detectives in the search, spokeswoman Violet Szeleczky said. Murray was the doctor with Jackson at his home when the pop star died June 25. A spokesman for Murray's lawyer confirmed the search. He said they were "caught off guard by this," but they are cooperating with investigators.
"Anything they are asking we will give them," the spokesman said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/22/jackson.murray.search/index.html

VC2

07-22-2009, 03:50 PM

Just announced on Fox that the search was related to finding evidence of "manslaughter".

:ohmy: what i said all along, if its diprivan it is manslaughter. tks athena

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:51 PM

I heard Dr Nancy, on MSNBC, this morning say that Dr Murray did not have hospital privileges at ANY hospital and says that is a red flag at him being a shady doc.

BorderCollieMom

07-22-2009, 03:51 PM

Anyone know what is meant by " evidence of manslaughter" ?

Just wondering ... Ch 8 news Dallas & HLN is reporting this is going on at Murrays office.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 03:51 PM

They sign them if they know what the cause of death was and it was expected or at least not unexpected-for example thinking someone would die in a year but they die the next month of heart disease.

Murray, as panicked as he was, knew that to actually sign the death certificate would have been unethical in and of itself unless MJ had a terminal condition or an obvious accident that killed him. Even when drug overdoses are strongly suspected tdoctors rarely sign them because it is still an unexpected death and the question of deliberate or accidental still arises.

He really had no choice. If he signed it they would open an investigation even faster imo

Doctors don't sign on accidents. An autopsy is done automatically. All traffic deaths are automatically autopsied as an example. I agree with you in part. Do you remember they were talking about a heart attack,
not about an overdose at all?

He did not sign the death certificate because he knew Mr Jackson was an addict and he knew it.

Doctors sign on natural deaths only.

I was arguing an original point that Dr Murry didn't sign the death certificate because he didn't want to be known as the last doctor "standing" and signing would have been an admission of guilt which I found to be silly.

I do agree with TooDarnTired he was busy cleaning himself up.jk This was a very high profile case.

in my opinion

BorderCollieMom

07-22-2009, 03:54 PM

Athena....thanks.

All I am seeing is they took "documents" , I think they said 20 pages.

What ? thats it ?

Still confused on "evidence of manslaughter".

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:54 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32084545/ns/entertainment-music/

crazymama

07-22-2009, 03:55 PM

daniel green

07-22-2009, 03:56 PM

Athena....thanks.

All I am seeing is they took "documents" , I think they said 20 pages.

What ? thats it ?

Still confused on "evidence of manslaughter".

21 documents and copy of the hard-drive on his computer.

BorderCollieMom

07-22-2009, 04:01 PM

21 documents and copy of the hard-drive on his computer.

Thanks DG.

HLN is giving more details also now.

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 04:05 PM

Could the problem regarding the death certificate
be that MJ died in his home. Just recently a friend of
mine, her mom passed at home(expected) and she had trouble
transporting the body out of the home.
I think more than one doc is in trouble and maybe others.

My Dad passed away at home. It was unexpected but he was 86 and had a history of heart problems. LE would not release his body to the funeral home until they spoke to his doc and he told them that he would sign the death certificate. If he wouldn't sign we were told that LE would have to call the coroner and an autopsy would have to be preformed.

This was in California.

lilismom

07-22-2009, 04:06 PM

I was arguing an original point that Dr Murry didn't sign the death certificate because he didn't want to be known as the last doctor "standing" and signing would have been an admission of guilt which I found to be silly.

I do agree with TooDarnTired he was busy cleaning himself up.jk This was a very high profile case.

in my opinion[/QUOTE]

SNIPPED.

I don't think it is silly at all. He was distancing himself right from the beginning was my point.

Carry on.

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 04:12 PM

I was arguing an original point that Dr Murry didn't sign the death certificate because he didn't want to be known as the last doctor "standing" and signing would have been an admission of guilt which I found to be silly.

I do agree with TooDarnTired he was busy cleaning himself up.jk This was a very high profile case.

in my opinion

SNIPPED.

I don't think it is silly at all. He was distancing himself right from the beginning was my point.

Carry on.

IMO,
Lilismom[/QUOTE]

I wasn't referring to you. Sorry you thought so.

in my opinion

crazymama

07-22-2009, 04:14 PM

My Dad passed away at home. It was unexpected but he was 86 and had a history of heart problems. LE would not release his body to the funeral home until they spoke to his doc and he told them that he would sign the death certificate. If he wouldn't sign we were told that LE would have to call the coroner and an autopsy would have to be preformed.

This was in California.
-----------
And all this went on with your father still in the home? Yes
sounds similar to what my friend experienced, but I can't
remember exactly anymore. She was in TO, Canada. So maybe thats why they didn't want to declare him dead in the home, he would have been there for awhile, imagine the chaos.

lilismom

07-22-2009, 04:20 PM

I wasn't referring to you. Sorry you thought so.

in my opinion[/QUOTE]

Its cool. :)

IMO,
Lilismom

VC2

07-22-2009, 04:28 PM

Hello daniel,

This supports your statement:

"In a statement released shortly after the search began, lawyers for Dr. Murray said the agents were executing a warrant that authorized them to “search for and seize items, including documents, they believed constituted evidence of the offense of manslaughter.” They said the agents seized a forensic image of a business computer hard drive and 21 documents.

“None of the documents taken had previously been requested by law enforcement or the L.A. Coroner’s office,” they said.

The Los Angeles coroner’s office has yet to release the results of its autopsy on Mr. Jackson’s body, but the police department was reportedly acting on preliminary results suggesting that one or more drugs found in lethal amounts in the singer’s system came from Dr. Murray’s office.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/us/23jackson.html

i am actually surprised they are going this far without the autopsy results being officially announced...then again i wonder if the "no charges even if manner is homicide" comment by LE was a plant and they are taking the extra 2 weeks to get enough evidence that a search warrant could be issued by a judge without tipping Murray off that they considered it a homicide/manslaughter.

Did you hear there is a criminal investigation into the memorial too? good for the mayor to have requested it, it seems many of the costs were inflated like the lunches.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:35 PM

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 04:38 PM

Wasn't it reported that the Dr. injected MJ's heart when trying to revive him? I couldn't find the article but when searching found this:

In 2007, Dr. Murray drained fluid from the heart of a 67-year-old Las Vegas patient. The patient died after surgery. According to the coroner's investigation report, his wife was told by one of the docs her husband's heart was punctured during the procedure -- so she complained to the coroner's office.

The investigation report confirms that, during Dr. Murray's surgery, the patient suffered a puncture to the right ventricle of his heart, which was eventually listed as one of four causes of death on the autopsy report.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/09/jackson-doc-was-under-investigation-before/print

FGS
I would not let this QUACK near my Teddy Bear collection, much less Aunt Lew, Max or myself.

QUACK QUACK :cursing:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:39 PM

Wasn't it reported that the Dr. injected MJ's heart when trying to revive him? I couldn't find the article but when searching found this:

snipped

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/09/jackson-doc-was-under-investigation-before/print

Not sure it was directly to the heart, but it sure was reported by many news sources that he gave MJ adrenaline to get the heart going again.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:43 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534378,00.html

Mentions drugS found in high concentration in MJ's body, from the preliminary tox report.

Murray's LV office also searched.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 04:43 PM

Good afternoon, Athena.

Seems like they were quite surprised.

I found this very interesting, as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/us/23jackson.html?hp

“It’s not a raid,” she said. “A raid means we’re busting in with firearms. That’s not the case.”:biggrin:

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 04:43 PM

I read Lidocaine was found at the scene.
Would this have been used with the Epinephrine?

This whole case just makes me :mad: as heck.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:46 PM

Thanks.

Yes I wonder if it could have been a lethal cocktail or is diprivan considered the primary cause? Guess we'll find out. If diprivan was found that is definitely a case for involuntary manslaughter. snipped

My money is on driprivan being the cause of death, leading to manslaughter. Although I think they could go with even 2d degree murder--disregard for human life.

I also believe, especially from the reports today about a prelim tox report, that there will be other drugs in MJ's body, may he RIP, at very high levels but that they did not contribute or did not make a lethal cocktail.

If MJ was not being given oxygen, as per the medical directives for diprivan, while on it, for sure I think they should charge with 2d degree.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 04:47 PM

It's time for the tox report to be released so we can see it. I wonder what's taking so long? The media is running wild anyway. I say let's us see!!!:thumbup:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:47 PM

I read Lidocaine was found at the scene.
Would this have been used with the Epinephrine?

This whole case just makes me :mad: as heck.

As Athena just mentioned, the lidocaine was probly used with the diprivan, as it causes burning when it goes in and lidocaine is commonly used at the injection site.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:49 PM

OK searching with the word adrenaline did bring this up? But I believe the Coroner said the leaks were false - so not sure if it was everything or parts of it -- so don't take this to the bank:

"There were also four injection sites near his heart - evidence of a failed bid to pump adrenalin directly into the organ in an attempt to restart it."

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/06/29/20090629joe-jackson.html

Yes! Thx. That is what I remembered.

That would make sense, given that it is given when heart stops--especially with drug overdoses.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 04:52 PM

My money is on driprivan being the cause of death, leading to manslaughter. Although I think they could go with even 2d degree murder--disregard for human life.

I also believe, especially from the reports today about a prelim tox report, that there will be other drugs in MJ's body, may he RIP, at very high levels but that they did not contribute or did not make a lethal cocktail.

If MJ was not being given oxygen, as per the medical directives for diprivan, while on it, for sure I think they should charge with 2d degree.

ITA with the 2nd degree murder charge. Not just the oxygen part, but this DR had no business administering this drug in the first place. This is not drug to be administered in the HOME.
Anesthesiology is very specialized medicine to be practiced by Licensed Anesthesiologists ONLY.

This fool could not even perform CPR FGS. JMO

It will be coming very soon. JMO

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:53 PM

“It’s not a raid,” she said. “A raid means we’re busting in with firearms. That’s not the case.”:biggrin:

Are you still of the opinion that MJ died of an accidental self-administered overdose?

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 04:54 PM

IMO they are dotting the i's and crossing the t's. They cannot afford to make an error.

Do they even have to make this public if it results in a criminal trial? JMO

I don't know Athena.
Might not be made available to the public. Everyone is going to go crazy when the arrest is made. Some autopsy reports are never released.

VC2

07-22-2009, 04:56 PM

Wasn't it reported that the Dr. injected MJ's heart when trying to revive him? I couldn't find the article but when searching found this:

In 2007, Dr. Murray drained fluid from the heart of a 67-year-old Las Vegas patient. The patient died after surgery. According to the coroner's investigation report, his wife was told by one of the docs her husband's heart was punctured during the procedure -- so she complained to the coroner's office.

The investigation report confirms that, during Dr. Murray's surgery, the patient suffered a puncture to the right ventricle of his heart, which was eventually listed as one of four causes of death on the autopsy report.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/09/jackson-doc-was-under-investigation-before/print

my aha moment. since he was a cardiologist and not a cardiac surgeon i hadn't thought he would be getting diprivan through his practice.

Clearly he was doing surgical procedures though which would give him access.

imo

daniel green

07-22-2009, 04:57 PM

It is a horrible shame that they did not strip him of his licenses after the first lawsuits against the man, Athena.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 04:58 PM

As Athena just mentioned, the lidocaine was probly used with the diprivan, as it causes burning when it goes in and lidocaine is commonly used at the injection site.

Its also used with Epinephrine. Someone said the DR had administered that as well.

I don't give a rats about that one way or the other.
Its the lethal dose that counts.

Not trying to be rude or anything, but as I said before this case makes me VERY ANGRY.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 05:00 PM

Are you still of the opinion that MJ died of an accidental self-administered overdose?

I cannot believe anyone would believe that. :huh:

VC2

07-22-2009, 05:02 PM

Not sure it was directly to the heart, but it sure was reported by many news sources that he gave MJ adrenaline to get the heart going again.

with this quack i bet he missed the heart. it is meant to go right in the heart. sighs.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 05:03 PM

The Medical Board is a day late and a $ short.

This sickens me to no end. :crying:

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 05:06 PM

with this quack i bet he missed the heart. it is meant to go right in the heart. sighs.

Just sickening.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 05:06 PM

Its also used with Epinephrine. Someone said the DR had administered that as well.

snipped.

Epinephrine is adrenaline, I believe.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 05:08 PM

with this quack i bet he missed the heart. it is meant to go right in the heart. sighs.

What a horror, this man is. I bet he was totally clueless and not only gave MJ, may he RIP, the overdose and no oxygen support, but failed at any reviving attempts--as miserably as he failed in CPR and calling 911.

What an awful thing.

VC2

07-22-2009, 05:09 PM

My money is on driprivan being the cause of death, leading to manslaughter. Although I think they could go with even 2d degree murder--disregard for human life.

I also believe, especially from the reports today about a prelim tox report, that there will be other drugs in MJ's body, may he RIP, at very high levels but that they did not contribute or did not make a lethal cocktail.

If MJ was not being given oxygen, as per the medical directives for diprivan, while on it, for sure I think they should charge with 2d degree.

i think even further than that, if he did not have intubation and rescue equipment with him when giving it as per standard procedure then it shoud be 2nd degree. Its not enough just to give oxygen, if respiratory collapse occurs he cant breathe oxygen if its mask form. Needs to be intubated preferably at the start but certainly on collapse. He didn't even have a defibrillator which is needed for cardiac collapse.

To me that alone is reckless disregard before he even opened the vial.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 05:09 PM

It certainly is. Also in the link from your article it says he shared a practice with a Dr. Armstrong who had his license revoked and then reinstated in mid-2008. Wonder if he could have obtained the diprivan? I would think Dr. Murray would not have been able to enter any hospital to request it ???

I am not sure where he would get it, but he probly didn't have much trouble getting it, even out of the country.

But I do find it strange that he had no hospital privileges.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 05:10 PM

Epinephrine is adrenaline, I believe.

One in the same I think.

I'm going to do some laundry and chill out.
See you all later. :seeya:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 05:11 PM

i think even further than that, if he did not have intubation and rescue equipment with him when giving it as per standard procedure then it shoud be 2nd degree. Its not enough just to give oxygen, if respiratory collapse occurs he cant breathe oxygen if its mask form. Needs to be intubated preferably at the start but certainly on collapse. He didn't even have a defibrillator which is needed for cardiac collapse.

To me that alone is reckless disregard before he even opened the vial.

YEP. Thx for stating that so clearly.

I think it should be 2d degree and hope that he is charged with it.

VC2

07-22-2009, 05:22 PM

It is a horrible shame that they did not strip him of his licenses after the first lawsuits against the man, Athena.

It sure is daniel. I stand by my belief that MJ had started trying to get himself together, reducing reliance on pain killers to mainenance dosages and going back to diprivan for sleep therapy/his insomnia.

It is far far easier to take 4 pills to get to sleep than it is to bother with injections and anaesthesia plus as an addict he gets a nice high for a while before. He wanted to be in top shape for the tour and obviously his mind was back together enough that he got the original GOOD team of advisors back on board etc. I know what Leonard Rowe said but since he is suing MJ for not doing the family tour but the O2 instead..i doubt he saw him much and if he thought he couldnt do the 02 then couldnt do the family tour either.

so i guess i am absolutely furious at this death... I hate to say it but why couldn't he get Neil Ratner the anaesthesiologist from the first tour to be with him :( he might be doing something crazy stupid but at least the precautions would be there such as full rescue equipment, a physician certified in administerin anaesthesia etc. :(

no i am not saying it was ok, but i have always believed if you are going to do somethign stupid do it smart. I think MJ tried to by hiring Murray as a physician to administer it. He thought that he knew how to and would be safe. Some how i seriously doubt murray told him he didn't have an effing clue

VC2

07-22-2009, 05:27 PM

as far as getting it goes, from the link Athena found, he clearly did surgical procedures...he killed the man by puncturing his heart.

I may be wrong but he could well have done it in his clinic, diprivan is rarely used outside of hospital settings but it can be used in physicians surgeries for things. If he didn't have hospital priveleges then wear else did he drain the fluid?

flipflop

07-22-2009, 05:29 PM

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?id=15719529&ps=1011&srce=news_class&action=5&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_USNWU00L5_UNEWS

from your link...

"Dr. Murray was the last doctor standing when Michael Jackson died and it seems all the fury is directed toward him," Chernoff said. "Dr. Murray is frustrated by negative and often erroneous media reports, he has to walk around 24-7 with a bodyguard. He can't operate his practice. He can't go to work because he is harassed no matter where he goes."

Isn't that the way MJ had to live every day of his life?

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 05:33 PM

from your link...

"Dr. Murray was the last doctor standing when Michael Jackson died and it seems all the fury is directed toward him," Chernoff said. "Dr. Murray is frustrated by negative and often erroneous media reports, he has to walk around 24-7 with a bodyguard. He can't operate his practice. He can't go to work because he is harassed no matter where he goes."

Isn't that the way MJ had to live every day of his life?

He should get used to harassment. It will probably get worse in prison.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 05:57 PM

He should get used to harassment. It will probably get worse in prison.

Hmmmmm My guess is he would have to be charged with a crime, arrested, tried, and found guilty before that could happen.

in my opinion

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 06:00 PM

Hmmmmm My guess is he would have to be charged with a crime, arrested, tried, and found guilty before that could happen.

in my opinion

And I think it will be happening.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 06:12 PM

Hmmmmm My guess is he would have to be charged with a crime, arrested, tried, and found guilty before that could happen.

in my opinion

True. But it appears that the death of M. Jackson was the result of, at the very least, criminal negligence committed by the Doctor who charged $15,000.00 per month for his professional services.

Even if he doesn't serve time in prison, he will never be allowed to practice medicine. Hopefully he has backup skills in something other than medicine.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 06:17 PM

KatieLady

07-22-2009, 06:27 PM

-----------
And all this went on with your father still in the home? Yes
sounds similar to what my friend experienced, but I can't
remember exactly anymore. She was in TO, Canada. So maybe thats why they didn't want to declare him dead in the home, he would have been there for awhile, imagine the chaos.

Sorry...I had to leave for a bit.

Yes....he died in his home. The paramedics declared him dead. He had died in his sleep several hours before he was found

disneyfreak

07-22-2009, 06:30 PM

I was just on HLN with Mike. :biggrin:
Asked if the Coroner/LE were obligated to release the autopsy results if there was an arrest.

They said it might only say 'cardiac arrest' but not the other causes, if it might hinder the case/investigation. Something like that. I had to run ask Aunt Lew if she heard me. LOL

So we may not hear the autopsy results.

I had a similar experience. I was writing a paper for my sociology course and needed access to a coroner's file from 1970. I had to wait for the DA to get back to the coroner to release it even though the case had been closed. Reason was, it had been labeled "murder" even though it was later found to be an accident. That was reason enough to keep the file closed. Ironically, the reason I hadn't been able to get the file that day was that the DA was physically up at Neverland, it was the first day they were serving Jackson with the search warrant in the recent criminal case.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 06:32 PM

-------------------------

For sure. And they havn't even released the autopsy report as yet. Yet others already have him in jail. JMO

It has already been determined that his death was not due to natural causes. His title of "Doctor" has allowed him to remain free thus far. If he was a dealer off the street, shooting up his customers, he would have been arrested already.

imo...of course.

VC2

07-22-2009, 06:36 PM

I was just on HLN with Mike. :biggrin:
Asked if the Coroner/LE were obligated to release the autopsy results if there was an arrest.

They said it might only say 'cardiac arrest' but not the other causes, if it might hinder the case/investigation. Something like that. I had to run ask Aunt Lew if she heard me. LOL

So we may not hear the autopsy results.

I heard you! good question but i sure hope they release the autopsy report or tmz manages to get a copy. imo it is far better than the rumors going around, for his own sake.

If people knew what happened at least the wild speculation would stop.

Rolling Stone's writer of their indepth piece on his final days says he was skinny 127 lbs, but also that doctors and nurses were going in and out of the morgue to get a look of him as he lay on the metal gurney. That they say he had no nose, just a whole where it should be.

Then another reporter reminded mike that 2 weeks dr. klein said that he had been rebuilding his face to make it more normal and that included fillers to his nose which had problems due to cartilage collapse and his plastic surgeries, and he did have a nose.

Its that sort of thing -personally i believe klein bc he does know that it would come out at autopsy, absolutely no value to him to lie

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 06:38 PM

True. But it appears that the death of M. Jackson was the result of, at the very least, criminal negligence committed by the Doctor who charged $15,000.00 per month for his professional services.

Even if he doesn't serve time in prison, he will never be allowed to practice medicine. Hopefully he has backup skills in something other than medicine.

Missed a "0"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Murray#Personal_physician
Murray, who is not board-certified, is a 1989 graduate of Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee. He filed for bankruptcy in 1992,[41] and is reported to have had judgments filed against him or his company totalling over $435,000.[39] ABC News reported that Murray's partner in his Houston office had his license revoked and the clinic shut down in 2002 for improperly dispensing medication. Law enforcement officials reportedly called the clinic a "pill mill".[42]

Murray got to know Jackson in 2008 after treating one of his children in Las Vegas. Jackson summoned him in May 2009 to Los Angeles to help with preparations for the London concerts, then insisted that his concert promoter AEG Live hire Murray, who had been living with Jackson for two weeks before the death. Randy Phillips, AEG Live's chief executive, said the doctor had planned to travel with Jackson to Britain for a fee of $150,000 a month.[2] Murray has said through his attorney that he did not prescribe or administer Demerol or Oxycontin to Jackson, but would not say what, if anything, he did prescribe or administer.[33] According to the New York Times, preliminary autopsy results suggest "one or more drugs found in lethal amounts in the singer’s system came from Dr. Murray’s office."[43]

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 06:40 PM

-----------------------------

Nor has suicide been ruled out either. JMO

So why do you think the DEA entered into Murrays office and seized documents and imaged his computer within a month of Jackson's death?

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 06:41 PM

-----------------------------

Nor has suicide been ruled out either. JMO

Maybe not by you. But logic and common sense leads away from a suicide theory.

imo...of course.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 06:43 PM

I heard you! good question but i sure hope they release the autopsy report or tmz manages to get a copy. imo it is far better than the rumors going around, for his own sake.

If people knew what happened at least the wild speculation would stop.

Rolling Stone's writer of their indepth piece on his final days says he was skinny 127 lbs, but also that doctors and nurses were going in and out of the morgue to get a look of him as he lay on the metal gurney. That they say he had no nose, just a whole where it should be.

Then another reporter reminded mike that 2 weeks dr. klein said that he had been rebuilding his face to make it more normal and that included fillers to his nose which had problems due to cartilage collapse and his plastic surgeries, and he did have a nose.

Its that sort of thing -personally i believe klein bc he does know that it would come out at autopsy, absolutely no value to him to lie

Hopefully we will hear the results soon.
But I've been conducting a little poll with my buddies this past weekend.

Criminal charges or autopsy results - which will come first?
I've been sticking to my guns that criminal charges would be filed first.

I've been wrong before so no biggie either way. :wink:

And I also do not believe that junk about MJ nose. I believe DR Klein on that one. He surely knows it would be come out.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 06:45 PM

Missed a "0"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Murray#Personal_physician
Murray, who is not board-certified, is a 1989 graduate of Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee. He filed for bankruptcy in 1992,[41] and is reported to have had judgments filed against him or his company totalling over $435,000.[39] ABC News reported that Murray's partner in his Houston office had his license revoked and the clinic shut down in 2002 for improperly dispensing medication. Law enforcement officials reportedly called the clinic a "pill mill".[42]

Murray got to know Jackson in 2008 after treating one of his children in Las Vegas. Jackson summoned him in May 2009 to Los Angeles to help with preparations for the London concerts, then insisted that his concert promoter AEG Live hire Murray, who had been living with Jackson for two weeks before the death. Randy Phillips, AEG Live's chief executive, said the doctor had planned to travel with Jackson to Britain for a fee of $150,000 a month.[2] Murray has said through his attorney that he did not prescribe or administer Demerol or Oxycontin to Jackson, but would not say what, if anything, he did prescribe or administer.[33] According to the New York Times, preliminary autopsy results suggest "one or more drugs found in lethal amounts in the singer’s system came from Dr. Murray’s office."[43]

heh... I wanted to add the extra zero, but thought I remembered it wrong. Thanks for the correction. Wow!~ thats a lot of money!

crazymama

07-22-2009, 06:46 PM

Nic99

07-22-2009, 06:52 PM

Make sure you cook it thoroughly, lest you might get sick.

LOL theres that 'crow' saying again. I had never heard that until this week and it does make me chuckle. Maybe I'll say it at work and see what response I get - I think they'll send for the men in white coats lol. Great saying:biggrin:

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 06:58 PM

LOL theres that 'crow' saying again. I had never heard that until this week and it does make me chuckle. Maybe I'll say it at work and see what response I get - I think they'll send for the men in white coats lol. Great saying:biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_crow

Eating crow (archaically, eating boiled crow) is an English-language idiom meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong after taking a strong position.[1] Eating crow is presumably foul tasting in the same way being proven wrong might be emotionally hard to swallow.[1] Eating crow is of a family of idioms having to do with eating and being proven incorrect, such as to eat dirt, to eat your words, to eat your hat (or shoe).[1]

VC2

07-22-2009, 06:59 PM

If it can be proven that this other doctor, Neil Ratner,
put him under with drugs like diprivan during a concert series,
then he too should be punished. It's unethical medicine and
unethical behavior toward anothers life.

oh unethical yes if the reason was for sleep therapy by ratner. However unlike murray he was fully certified in anaesthesia and travelled with a mini clinic of all things he needed. This was back in the 90's i believe he was censured at some point.

Murray showed an absolute reckless disregard for human life if he administered diprivan without all equipment needed or training in it.

Nic99

07-22-2009, 07:02 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_crow

Eating crow (archaically, eating boiled crow) is an English-language idiom meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong after taking a strong position.[1] Eating crow is presumably foul tasting in the same way being proven wrong might be emotionally hard to swallow.[1] Eating crow is of a family of idioms having to do with eating and being proven incorrect, such as to eat dirt, to eat your words, to eat your hat (or shoe).[1]

Thank you for the explanation. I have 'never' heard anyone say that over here, but we do say 'eat your hat' or 'eat your words' alot. I didn't have a clue what you were all on about and it just makes me smile when I hear it now:biggrin:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:02 PM

So why do you think the DEA entered into Murrays office and seized documents and imaged his computer within a month of Jackson's death?

For all of Jackson's medical records? Many doctors keep their patients listed on a computer with all their records also. IIRC the doctor's lawyer said the police had not asked for the 21 documents or they would have been furnished.

in my opinion

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 07:13 PM

-------------

But you see, i'm not saying that MJ administered the diprivan to himself. I never meant to imply that. There could be other ways that he could have wanted to die. Maybe he injested nuerous pills without the doctor knowing and then asked for the diprivan. That could surely be a way to end one's life. As for crow..........i have eaten plates of it before. lol jmo

Imo there's no way he wanted to die. Everyone in his close circle said he was happy and looking forward to doing the concerts -- not only people from the crew but also friends, for example Mark Lester, said so.

crazymama

07-22-2009, 07:15 PM

oh unethical yes if the reason was for sleep therapy by ratner. However unlike murray he was fully certified in anaesthesia and travelled with a mini clinic of all things he needed. This was back in the 90's i believe he was censured at some point.

Murray showed an absolute reckless disregard for human life if he administered diprivan without all equipment needed or training in it.
------
Anytime your put under, something could go wrong. And to give it to someone for sleep, well I
would like to see his paychqs from MJ. He should lose his medical license, if this is story is true.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:18 PM

Law enforcement officials reportedly called the clinic a "pill mill".[42]

snipped

According to the New York Times, preliminary autopsy results suggest "one or more drugs found in lethal amounts in the singer’s system came from Dr. Murray’s office."[43]

Yeah, it makes total sense this guy worked in a "clinic" that was just a pill mill.

Seems that news sources are all saying that there were drugs found in lethal amounts and that they came from Dr M.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:21 PM

It has already been determined that his death was not due to natural causes. His title of "Doctor" has allowed him to remain free thus far. If he was a dealer off the street, shooting up his customers, he would have been arrested already.

imo...of course.

For real.

And no doubt he will be treated as a drug dealer in the criminal justice system.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 07:21 PM

oh unethical yes if the reason was for sleep therapy by ratner. However unlike murray he was fully certified in anaesthesia and travelled with a mini clinic of all things he needed. This was back in the 90's i believe he was censured at some point.

Murray showed an absolute reckless disregard for human life if he administered diprivan without all equipment needed or training in it.

I agree, it's worse what Dr. Murray did.... but what Ratner is concerned: I don't think his mini clinic would have helped if he hadn't been there during decisive minutes of an emergency. By all what I understand about diprivan and propofol a doctor can't walk away for a minute and has to observe the treated person continuously.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:29 PM

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 07:29 PM

What remains unclear to me is how MJ could feel fit the day after the use of these anesthesia drugs -- also during his concerts in the 90s.

Usually people feel tired after anesthesia.

crazymama

07-22-2009, 07:31 PM

You would think it would be a requirement that more
than one person should be present when giving this type
of drug. Someone else that knows cpr at least.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 07:33 PM

Well, if everything that is being said here about the doctors attending Mr Jackson, I still find it amazing how hard core addicts like he was can find doctors who oblige them. Seems he got was he was looking for.

in my opinion

Imo many factors play a role. The doctors were star struck, maybe proud of treating MJ, greedy, in debt...., had weak characters, couldn't say "no" to a friend etc.

Unperson1984

07-22-2009, 07:35 PM

What remains unclear to me is how MJ could feel fit the day after the use of these anesthesia drugs -- also during his concerts in the 90s.

Usually people feel tired after anesthesia.

True, but usually people are placed under anesthesia to perform a medical procedure.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:40 PM

snipped Seems he got was he was looking for.

in my opinion

Really? He was looking for bad/criminal medical treatment and death? :rolleyes:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:44 PM

An official from the L.A. County Coroner's office is in the offices of Michael Jackson's former nurse -- the nurse who claims Jackson badgered her for a powerful anesthesia. Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter just left nurse Cherilyn Lee's office ... he walked out with Jackson's medical records. We asked Lee about Jackson's use of the drug Propofol -- she says he asked her for it but she never gave it to him. Winter retrieved files from Dr. Arnold Klein last week. UPDATE: Winter has left the building with medical records. He said Lee was cooperative and is not under investigation

http://www.tmz.com/

Poochie Pie

07-22-2009, 07:44 PM

Well, if everything that is being said here about the doctors attending Mr Jackson, I still find it amazing how hard core addicts like he was can find doctors who oblige them. Seems he got was he was looking for.

in my opinion "Seems he got what he was looking for"... Not sure I agree with this statement, retired..... He was looking for sleep... NOT Eternal sleep... IMO

Poochie

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:45 PM

Really? He was looking for bad/criminal medical treatment and death? :rolleyes:

No, he was oh so innocent in all this. Geez

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:45 PM

AEG has filed legal papers asking to be part of the Michael Jackson probate hearing on August 3. The papers entitle AEG to receive all legal papers, including notices of court hearings, connected to the probate. It's unclear if AEG is teeing up a financial claim against the estate.

http://www.tmz.com/

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:46 PM

No, he was oh so innocent in all this. Geez

in my opinion

HUH? :confused:

Addiction is a disease, not a crime.

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 07:47 PM

"Seems he got what he was looking for"... Not sure I agree with this statement, retired..... He was looking for sleep... NOT Eternal sleep... IMO

Poochie
I completely agree with you, Poochie, and well said. I don't think never-waking-up-again was ever intended by MJ.

It was typical addict behavior, imo. They don't and cannot possibly know when their body will not take anymore of their abuse with the drugs. MJ surpassed his body's limit is what I am afraid this comes down to. :(

imo

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:48 PM

"Seems he got what he was looking for"... Not sure I agree with this statement, retired..... He was looking for sleep... NOT Eternal sleep... IMO

Poochie

He was looking for drugs. All kinds of drugs. He liked drugs. It led to his death as happens a whole lot with addicts. He certainly got the drugs he was looking for, so he got what he was looking for, no?

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:50 PM

Retiredcop, it appears that you know nothing about addiction.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 07:50 PM

No, he was oh so innocent in all this. Geez

in my opinion

Between the $150,000.00 per month Doctor and the patient, I would say yes, he was the innocent in this.

imo...of course.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:51 PM

HUH? :confused:

Addiction is a disease, not a crime.

When did I say it was a crime?:confused: Although buying illegal drugs is a crime. I guess he is a legal addict?

He was looking for drugs and he got them.

in my opinion

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 07:51 PM

-------------

No............he was looking for his own troubles with his druggie lifestyle. jmo

Druggie lifestyle? What is that?

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:53 PM

Between the $150,000.00 per month Doctor and the patient, I would say yes, he was the innocent in this.

imo...of course.

No one is innocent in this.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:53 PM

-----------------------------

Nor has suicide been ruled out either. JMO

Really, huh?

Which is why the police raided Dr M's office today

The Los Angeles Police Department's homicide division was involved in the search, and the warrant authorized them to "search for and seize items, including documents, they believed constituted evidence of the offense of manslaughter," said Ed Chernoff, Murray's lawyer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072201789.html

Right. Homicide divisions always raid someone's office looking for evidence of manslaughter after a suicide. :rolleyes:

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 07:54 PM

True, but usually people are placed under anesthesia to perform a medical procedure.
Excellent point about "medical procedures," Un, and it's so nice to read your expert legal opinions here. Finally, a case in the State where you practice! :seeya:

imo

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 07:54 PM

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:54 PM

------------

Very true. Its hard for me to understand how people cant see this. What does a person think will happen to them when they continue down a path of drugs.
jmo

I don't know? Bizarre to say the least.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:55 PM

Druggie lifestyle? What is that?

Goodness, what a horrible, offensive and ignorant term for a disease.

I guess some folks have an insuling lifestyle? Or a chemo lifestyle?

How nasty. :rolleyes:

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 07:56 PM

No one is innocent in this.

in my opinion

Have you heard... he had three young children who loved him.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:56 PM

He was looking for sleep. There is a difference between wanting to sleep and wanting to be high.

I've heard a lot of excuses. That's a good one.:wink:

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 07:57 PM

Have you heard... he had three young children who loved him.

Yes, too bad he didn't care with his doctor shopping and pill poping.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:58 PM

No one is innocent in this.

in my opinion

What on earth does that mean?

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 07:58 PM

------------

I asked u nicely to stop baiting me. I'm sick of it.

You are free to place me on ignore. I encourage you to utilize it.

Poochie Pie

07-22-2009, 07:59 PM

I completely agree with you, Poochie, and well said. I don't think never-waking-up-again was ever intended by MJ.

It was typical addict behavior, imo. They don't and cannot possibly know when their body will not take anymore of their abuse with the drugs. MJ surpassed his body's limit is what I am afraid this comes down to. :(

imo Thank you Miami.. My sentiments exactly... But don't you think that he must have felt pretty safe with a Cardiologist living right there with him..?? IMO, DR. Murray was negligent, at the least, in not getting Emergency personnel to the scene.. I still can't believe the stories he gave.. Time was of the essence..!! Know what I mean..??

Poochie

daniel green

07-22-2009, 07:59 PM

Yes, too bad he didn't care with his doctor shopping and pill poping.

in my opinion

He didn't care about his children?????????? :confused: Please post proof of that.

Also, pls post proof of your allegation re "pill popping."

TIA

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:00 PM

He was looking for sleep. There is a difference between wanting to sleep and wanting to be high.

And the difference is?

in my opinion

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:01 PM

No, he was oh so innocent in all this. Geez

in my opinion

I would never blame any addict. Addiction is irrational, the argument "it's your own fault" doesn't work for addicts.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:02 PM

I would never blame any addict. Addiction is irrational, the argument "it's your own fault" doesn't work for addicts.

Most of them know it.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:03 PM

http://www.hbo.com/addiction/understanding_addiction/index.html

Here. Perhaps even a cursory glancing through this might lead to less ridiculous and nasty misstatments about what addiction is or about anyone who suffers with the disease of addiction, and their loved ones.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:04 PM

He was looking for sleep. There is a difference between wanting to sleep and wanting to be high.

Yes, there is a difference... but nevertheless one can't say the addicts who want to be high are the "bad guys". Addiction IS a disease... and part of the disease is that the addict denies his own addiction and always finds "good reasons" to continue drug abuse.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:04 PM

Yes, too bad he didn't care with his doctor shopping and pill poping.

in my opinion

All I can say is I'm glad you are retired, and hope you are enjoying it.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:06 PM

People probably continue to think of addiction -- particularly to illicit drugs -- as primarily a moral or character problem, something caused by degeneracy or lack of willpower.

Scientific research into addiction, however, has led experts to conclude that addiction is actually a disease, a chronic illness like diabetes or hypertension. The American Medical Association broke new ground approximately forty years ago when it declared alcoholism to be a disease. And in the past decade, dramatic advances in technology have allowed scientists to examine the brain itself in search of the causes, mechanisms, and consequences of addiction. Today, scientists and physicians overwhelmingly agree that while use and even abuse of drugs such as alcohol and cocaine is a behavior over which the individual exerts control, addiction to these substances is something different. Scientists have begun to understand why addicted people may sacrifice everything that's important to them -- their jobs, their families, their homes -- in the quest for a chemical fix.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/closetohome/science/

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:07 PM

And the difference is?

in my opinion

How about you stay awake for a week and then report back to us if you figure out what the difference is.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:07 PM

All I can say is I'm glad you are retired, and hope you are enjoying it.

Scooby,

I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but personal attacks because you don't agree with me is against tos. I'll let it pass because I'm not a reporter.

Thank you, I am enjoying my retirement.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:08 PM

How about you stay awake for a week and then report back to us if you figure out what the difference is.

Huh?:confused:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:08 PM

Yes, there is a difference... but nevertheless one can't say the addicts who want to be high are the "bad guys". Addiction IS a disease... and part of the disease is that the addict denies his own addiction and always finds "good reasons" to continue drug abuse.

Not to mention that even heredity plays a large part in the disease of addiction. Just like it does in diseases like diabetes or cancer.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:09 PM

Most of them know it.

in my opinion

They know it... but can't stop, though. They make resolutions... but can't keep them. Addicts are torn between regret and insatiable desire.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:10 PM

Not to mention that even heredity plays a large part in the disease of addiction. Just like it does in diseases like diabetes or cancer.

Yes, I've read, too, that addiction could be genetic.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:13 PM

Scooby,

I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but personal attacks because you don't agree with me is against tos. I'll let it pass because I'm not a reporter.

Thank you, I am enjoying my retirement.

in my opinion

If you thought it was a personal attack, you are mistaken. But I apologize if you were offended.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:15 PM

I wonder.... if any of his doctors ever performed a sleep study on him.

Poochie Pie

07-22-2009, 08:15 PM

He was looking for drugs. All kinds of drugs. He liked drugs. It led to his death as happens a whole lot with addicts. He certainly got the drugs he was looking for, so he got what he was looking for, no?

in my opinion Okay... In a sense... he got the drugs.. Yes.. But, IMO, the only reason they led to his death is because he trusted too many Doctors with his Life.. There have been may rumors, retired, that he used the Anesthesia years and years ago while on his Germany Tour.. He may have been no stranger to it.. But, it certainly didn't kill him THEN... Correct..?? I find it very strange that he was fine and actually performing the night before his "sudden" death... Do you not..??

Poochie

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:15 PM

I really dont want to debate who is at fault here..it is sfufice to say that anyone addicted to something has a disease of sorts.and the only difference in someone like MJ having this "disease"..is he found people to feed that addiction..whether it was plastic surgery, or pills, or Sleep therpy...and why??? because he had power, fame and money!! Its most likely a very common phenomena is those circles....however I have a big but here....

Facilitators..such as Dr. Ratner...back in 1996..met MJ's needs..without incident..however he was not only qualified..he had the apropriate support equipement to do it..unlike Dr. Murray, then of course Dr. Klein..I am still waiting to see how he comes into this as well..he's ben with MJ for 25 years...knows full well of MJ's addictions....then of course MJ's entourages who supported his behaviors..hide facts..and towed the "partyline",,so to speak...

Last..MJ has paid in full for his part in this..no charges can be laid against him for his drug abuses..and any other abuses for that matter..His Plastic Surgery's were very indicative of his mindset..and their failures just pushed his need for more and more corrective procedures etc..

I do think that ANS and MJ will finally expose this sick, abuse of the system and stop or at least punish Medical people for enabling like this..money is so powerul.but maybe jail time will get their priorties straight!!

LMS

Ahh the voice of reason. I'll go along with that. There are junkies and enablers. Neither is a pretty thing. It takes two to tango so to speak.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:16 PM

Many people assume that addiction is simply an overuse of drugs, and that the addict is just a drug user who chooses to use too much. But research has shown that addiction, unlike casual drug use, is no longer a matter of free choice. "Functionally you've moved into a different state, a state of compulsive drug use," says Alan Leshner, Ph.D., director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA). "People have a lot of trouble understanding that addiction is not an issue of choice or will or morality. " The National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Medical Association all define this state of driven, compulsive use as the essence of addiction.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/closetohome/science/html/differences.html

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:17 PM

I wonder.... if any of his doctors ever performed a sleep study on him.

Very interesting question!

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:19 PM

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/closetohome/science/html/differences.html

Did you happen to listen to NPR today?

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:19 PM

Yes, I've read, too, that addiction could be genetic.

Genetic predisposition is another likely culprit. Researchers have shown relatively conclusively that people with a particular kind of severe, early-onset alcoholism are genetically predisposed to it. In some young men, for example, the risk may be as much as 10-fold greater than in people without that genetic predisposition. In general, children of alcoholics are two to four times more likely to become alcoholics or addicts themselves, reports the federal government's Center for Substance Abuse Prevention. Studies involving adoption have shown that if a person's biological parents were alcoholics, a greater risk for alcoholism persists even if the person was raised by non-alcoholics. And, according to the Addiction Science Research and Education Center at the University of Texas at Austin, more than 60 percent of alcoholics have family histories of alcoholism.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/closetohome/science/html/biology.html

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:20 PM

Did you happen to listen to NPR today?

No, I didn't. Was it on this subject?

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:20 PM

Yes, too bad he didn't care with his doctor shopping and pill poping.

in my opinion

I can understand YOUR perspective as a cop, too. Often addicts cause a lot of trouble for the police..., maybe you think: Why do they never learn, never take the chance of rehab?!

Like the link posted by Daniel says: An addict sacrifices his job, even his loved ones... and takes up any risk to get his drugs -- even becomes criminal. Imo addiction has nothing to do with reason or brainpower.

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 08:23 PM

Thank you Miami.. My sentiments exactly... But don't you think that he must have felt pretty safe with a Cardiologist living right there with him..?? IMO, DR. Murray was negligent, at the least, in not getting Emergency personnel to the scene.. I still can't believe the stories he gave.. Time was of the essence..!! Know what I mean..??

Poochie
Yes, you are exactly right, good point. MJ was probably under the delusion that the doctor would keep him safe.

Drug addicts are never thinking they will die - only looking to satisfy their addiction. It is a nightmare no one would wish on their worst enemy.

imo

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:23 PM

Very interesting question!

Well.. One of the reports stated that he complained of a constant ringing inside his head, or that he couldn't turn off his brain. I'm no doctor but I would imagine that would be extremely difficult to endure. Perhaps some sort of study or interest in what was causing it would have been valuable, and might have saved his life.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:23 PM

How Science Has Revolutionized the Understanding of Drug Addiction.

Throughout much of the last century, scientists studying drug abuse labored in the shadows of powerful myths and misconceptions about the nature of addiction. When science began to study addictive behavior in the 1930s, people addicted to drugs were thought to be morally flawed and lacking in willpower. Those views shaped society's responses to drug abuse, treating it as a moral failing rather than a health problem, which led to an emphasis on punitive rather than preventative and therapeutic actions. Today, thanks to science, our views and our responses to drug abuse have changed dramatically. Groundbreaking discoveries about the brain have revolutionized our understanding of drug addiction, enabling us to respond effectively to the problem.

As a result of scientific research, we know that addiction is a disease that affects both brain and behavior. We have identified many of the biological and environmental factors and are beginning to search for the genetic variations that contribute to the development and progression of the disease. Scientists use this knowledge to develop effective prevention and treatment approaches that reduce the toll drug abuse takes on individuals, families, and communities.

Despite these advances, many people today do not understand why individuals become addicted to drugs or how drugs change the brain to foster compulsive drug abuse. This booklet aims to fill that knowledge gap by providing scientific information about the disease of drug addiction, including the many harmful consequences of drug abuse and the basic approaches that have been developed to prevent and treat the disease. At the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), we believe that increased understanding of the basics of addiction will empower people to make informed choices in their own lives, adopt science-based policies and programs that reduce drug abuse and addiction in their communities, and support scientific research that improves the Nation's well-being.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/ScienceofAddiction/

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:24 PM

I can understand YOUR perspective as a cop, too. Often addicts cause a lot of trouble for the police..., maybe you think: Why do they never learn, never take the chance of rehab?!

Like the link posted by Daniel says: An addict sacrifices his job, even his loved ones... and takes up any risk to get his drugs -- even becomes criminal. Imo addiction has nothing to do with reason or brainpower.

No, I don't care for addicts. I have seen what they can do to innocent people to get enough money for their habit. I don't mean just their family, but innocent people the rob and kill to get money for their habits.

When they go to trial, drugs and all the mumbo jumbo about how they can't help themselves does not become a mitigating factor.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:25 PM

Well.. One of the reports stated that he complained of a constant ringing inside his head, or that he couldn't turn off his brain. I'm no doctor but I would imagine that would be extremely difficult to endure. Perhaps some sort of study or interest in what was causing it would have been valuable, and might have saved his life.

How interesting. Let me go to the NPR site and see if they have that up yet.

Thanks for telling me that, I had not heard that before.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:26 PM

snipped
When they go to trial, drugs and all the mumbo jumbo about how they can't help themselves does not become a mitigating factor.

in my opinion

Totally incorrect.

Pls do let us know of someone being tried for being an addict, btw.

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 08:26 PM

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:26 PM

No, I didn't. Was it on this subject?

Almost word for word to what you have been posting. Your opinion is shared by many, including me.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:29 PM

How interesting. Let me go to the NPR site and see if they have that up yet.

Thanks for telling me that, I had not heard that before.

NPR was discussing addiction, but I never heard them mention M. Jackson. The constant noise in his head was reported shortly after his death, but I can't remember who reported it.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:30 PM

<snipped>
Last..MJ has paid in full for his part in this..no charges can be laid against him for his drug abuses..and any other abuses for that matter..His Plastic Surgery's were very indicative of his mindset..and their failures just pushed his need for more and more corrective procedures etc..
<snipped>
LMS

(Apart from MJ) plastic surgery could be addictive.

Most addicts aren't only addicted to one substance only, most of them are politox. Like you said it's a mindset -- not necessarily directed on drugs only.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:30 PM

Complained to whom?

My guess would be his doctors, as well as those close to him.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:32 PM

I wish everbody would just stop making excuses for MJ. jmo

Likewise... I wish people would stop making excuses for Dr. Conrad Murry.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:32 PM

Almost word for word to what you have been posting. Your opinion is shared by many, including me.

Thanks for letting me know.

It is the view held by the scientific and medical communities (and, law enforcement, too!!!) for a very long time. It shocks me to read anything/anyone in the 21st century think it is a matter of desire/will.

That ringing in the ears has to be miserable, miserable. And that question of a sleep study is intriguing. Makes me wonder.

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:36 PM

This is a very good article - but unfortunately, addiction is only understood after one lives the full horror of dealing with an addict. And even then, it is STILL hard to understand how someone can do this to themselves. :(

imo

Imo EVERYBODY knows any people -- even they are no close one -- with addiction problems.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:36 PM

Huh? Did he say that? I can't tell cuz you snipped part of the post.

I didn't see anything about going to trial for being an addict. Obviously, he meant trial for robbery, possession, burglary, etc and using drug addiction as a defense.

imo

Drug addiction is not a viable defense, its a mitigating factor.

imo...of course.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:38 PM

--------------

Ringing inside the head can be caused from a broken blood vessel. Maybe he couldnt turn off his brain cause he was always worried where his next fix would come from. jmo

i would say that is the reason for sure.

in my opinion

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 08:39 PM

Imo EVERYBODY knows any people -- even they are no close one -- with addiction problems.
Yes, but actually living the roller coaster, begin sucked into the addicts vortex, is different than just observing. imo

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:39 PM

Drug addiction is not a viable defense, its a mitigating factor.

imo...of course.

It never worked as a mitigating factor to my knowledge....

in my opinion

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 08:39 PM

i would say that is the reason for sure.

in my opinion

:rolleyes:
My eyes will not come back around on that one.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:40 PM

i also think that "Addictive behavior" by rich or affluent people stay under the radar..so to speak..snipped:

I agree.

I was shocked when I read about Cindy McCain having been addicted to prescription pain meds for years, even going so far as to stealing from her not-for-profit foundation.

More kids are now turning to Rx meds and becoming addicted. Addiction to pain killers is the #1 cause of addiction in this country.

It's a terrible disease, ravaging families and communities as well as those suffering with addiction.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:40 PM

----------

Its treatable.........so why didnt he get treatement instead of leaving his children without a father. There is just no excuse in my book. jmo

How do you successfully treat it? You should share your knowledge with the rest of the world, because from what I've heard it is not as easy as you seem to believe.

LILMANMAX

07-22-2009, 08:41 PM

It never worked as a mitigating factor to my knowledge....

in my opinion

Which is limited at best and is my opinion.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:41 PM

:rolleyes:
My eyes will not come back around on that one.

LOL Yes I noticed they were rolling.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:42 PM

Yes, but actually living the roller coaster, begin sucked into the addicts vortex, is different than just observing. imo

It is. Very different.

When I first started working with children whose parents were addicts I was so angry at the parents. But that was back in 1980 and I knew nothing about addiction.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:43 PM

How do you successfully treat it? You should share your knowledge with the rest of the world, because from what I've heard it is not as easy as you seem to believe.

You go to an eye, ear, and nose guy.

in my opinion

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:43 PM

I agree.

I was shocked when I read about Cindy McCain having been addicted to prescription pain meds for years, even going so far as to stealing from her not-for-profit foundation.

More kids are now turning to Rx meds and becoming addicted. Addiction to pain killers is the #1 cause of addiction in this country.

It's a terrible disease, ravaging families and communities as well as those suffering with addiction.

Pat Nixon also had addiction issues. I never heard anyone call her a junkie.

:huh:

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:44 PM

How do you successfully treat it? You should share your knowledge with the rest of the world, because from what I've heard it is not as easy as you seem to believe.

Man oh man oh man. If someone has the cure to addiction, he/she could not only get insanely rich, but be of enourmous help to humanity.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:44 PM

It is. Very different.

When I first started working with children whose parents were addicts I was so angry at the parents. But that was back in 1980 and I knew nothing about addiction.

What???? You're still not angry at drug addicted parents. I'd be livid. Poor kids.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:45 PM

It never worked as a mitigating factor to my knowledge....

in my opinion

That is ridiculous.

Simply ridiculous.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:45 PM

Man oh man oh man. If someone has the cure to addiction, he/she could not only get insanely rich, but be of enourmous help to humanity.

She/he was talking about ringing in the ears.lol

in my opinion

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:46 PM

i also think that "Addictive behavior" by rich or affluent people stay under the radar..so to speak..but regular, or lower class citizns resort to seeking underground people to get their net fix..thus become more exposed.....Just because MJ didnt have to go to the Streets to get his fix..no matter what his need was at the time..He remained "under the radar..and was able to make excuses with prescribed..or medical rocedure..or medial illness or disease ala Vitiglio or Lupus..or his burn from quarter century ago..In the end..He died because he reused to take the proper advice I am sure he had been given over the years..and Dr. shopped to find the ones that would allow him to continue on his "Self Destructive" highway!!

Ya all know what I think of Medical people who knowingly facilitate such behaviors..Key word..knowingly..and I think now the medical community has been told...They are on notice now!!

LMS:mad:

I agree, addiction has nothing to do with the social class... The only difference is that people like MJ don't get their drugs on an underground black market.

In Germany doctors prescribe drugs as substitutes for illegal drugs. There's a black market for prescription drugs, too. Imo the balancing act is: Who legally gets the drug as a substitute... and when is it criminal / illegal to prescribe the drug? In the case of MJ it's investigated because he was a celebrity. If a street addict dies from prescription drugs "no one" cares... It happens day by day.

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:46 PM

Pat Nixon also had addiction issues. I never heard anyone call her a junkie.

:huh:

Of course not, and she should not have been. So was Betty Ford, and she is a wonderful person who has done so much to explain addiction and to help those who suffer from the disease.

Using terms like that truly says more about the person using the nasty term than the person suffering from the disease of addiction.

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 08:47 PM

My guess would be his doctors, as well as those close to him.

Didn't he also tell the nurse that was coming to see him that he had the feeling of being hot on one side of his body and cold on the other side?

imo

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 08:50 PM

Didn't he also tell the nurse that was coming to see him that he had the feeling of being hot on one side of his body and cold on the other side?

imo

Btw..., the former nurse is investigated now, too:

Coroner Wants Jackson Files From Former Nurse
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/22/coroner-wants-jackson-files-from-former-nurse/

Got to log out...

CU!

:seeya:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:51 PM

Btw..., the former nurse is investigated now, too:

Coroner Wants Jackson Files From Former Nurse
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/22/coroner-wants-jackson-files-from-former-nurse/

Got to log out...

CU!

:seeya:

Ha, I knew it. I thought there was something hinky about her.

in my opinion

Imperfect4

07-22-2009, 08:52 PM

I guess thats why you are a retired cop instead of a retired doctor.
:confused:

Your snarky, uncalled-for personal remarks are being reported, Scoob. :rolleyes:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:53 PM

Didn't he also tell the nurse that was coming to see him that he had the feeling of being hot on one side of his body and cold on the other side?

imo

It's called hyperventilating because he needed a fix.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 08:54 PM

Ha, I knew it. I thought there was something hinky about her.

in my opinion

That hinky meter might need some tuning. :wink:

From the link:

An official from the L.A. County Coroner's office is in the offices of Michael Jackson's former nurse -- the nurse who claims Jackson badgered her for a powerful anesthesia. Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter just left nurse Cherilyn Lee's office ... he walked out with Jackson's medical records. We asked Lee about Jackson's use of the drug Propofol -- she says he asked her for it but she never gave it to him. Winter retrieved files from Dr. Arnold Klein last week.

UPDATE: Winter has left the building with medical records. He said Lee was cooperative and is not under investigation.

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 08:57 PM

Your snarky, uncalled-for personal remarks are being reported, Scoob. :rolleyes:

You left your Cindy Anthony forum to deliver this message? I'm flattered.

While you are at it, would you kindly report the poster who referred to a former first lady of the US as a junkie. Much obliged.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:58 PM

That hinky meter might need some tuning. :wink:

From the link:

Mr Green, they always say their not under investigation at first. Come on.

in my opinion

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 08:59 PM

You left your Cindy Anthony forum to deliver this message? I'm flattered.

While you are at it, would you kindly report the poster who referred to a former first lady of the US as a junkie. Much obliged.

Excuse me, why am I involved in this all of a sudden. Please. Besides she was an addict.

in my opinion

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 09:01 PM

Oh, really? lol. And exactly what's wrong the word junkie? Or do you even knowwhat it means? :rolleyes:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/junkie

"junkie" - a narcotics peddler or addict

"junkie- a person who derives inordinate pleasure from or who is dependent on something

"junkie - a junk dealer

Now who are you to say what someone should be called?

imo

Were you aware that diprovan is not a narcotic?

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 09:02 PM

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 09:03 PM

Excuse me, why am I involved in this all of a sudden. Please. Besides she was an addict.

in my opinion

Huh? I mentioned Cindy Anthony, and former first lady. I can't imagine you are either of the people mentioned. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 09:03 PM

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:03 PM

It's called hyperventilating because he needed a fix.

in my opinion

hyperventilating? She mentioned nothing about he was having trouble breathing?

She said he was sleep deprived.

imo

who_is_it

07-22-2009, 09:05 PM

I just happened to complete a chapter in Ian Halpern's book and found this to be interesting:

MJ was going through detox during his History tour and was being weaned off of the prescription meds. As a result of withdrawal due to lower dosages, he was suffering from severe insominia -- would not be able to sleep for 48 hours straight. Jackson's long-time business partner Myoung-ho Lee hired Dr. Neil Ratner to oversee the detox and the anasthesiologist accompanied him on this trip and "treated" him with a drug similar to propofol in order to induce coma.

"Unmasked" ppg. 144-145

Good to know you read this book. Not now because I don't have time... and not on THIS thread.... but I would have some questions on the book some other time....

:seeya:

crazymama

07-22-2009, 09:05 PM

I seem to recall a type of controversial drug withdrawel
treatment, where the doctors put u under and do some
type of cleanse of the drugs from ur body. I think it helps
skip the ddts or whatever they call thems.

He passed a independent lengthy physical exam for the
tour and passed. Would like to know what that says. It
should show if he was medicating or abusing. Just my
opinions.

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 09:06 PM

Good to know you read this book. Not now because I don't have time... and not on THIS thread.... but I would have some questions on the book some other time....

:seeya:

I agree. We have a book thread here.

in my opinion

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 09:06 PM

Now I'm reporting you. I called MJ a junkie and that's exactly what he was.

I didn't call the first lady anything.

imo

I never said you did.

FYI:

retiredcop
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 416

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel green
Of course not, and she should not have been. So was Betty Ford, and she is a wonderful person who has done so much to explain addiction and to help those who suffer from the disease.

Using terms like that truly says more about the person using the nasty term than the person suffering from the disease of addiction.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Stop joking Mr Green, she was a junkie and you know it.

in my opinion
__________________
My posts are my opinion only.

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:08 PM

Mr Green, they always say their not under investigation at first. Come on.

in my opinion

They do? They usually remain mum and do not say one way or the other.

From TMZ.

UPDATE: Winter has left the building with medical records. He said Lee was cooperative and is not under investigation.

imo

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 09:10 PM

I never said you did.

FYI:

retiredcop
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 416

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel green
Of course not, and she should not have been. So was Betty Ford, and she is a wonderful person who has done so much to explain addiction and to help those who suffer from the disease.

Using terms like that truly says more about the person using the nasty term than the person suffering from the disease of addiction.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Stop joking Mr Green, she was a junkie and you know it.

in my opinion
__________________
My posts are my opinion only.

Wait, you just posted it wasn't me. What's up here. I did say in my opinion ya know. Why are you looking to get me in trouble for nothing just to get yourself out of trouble?

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 09:11 PM

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20293054,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:11 PM

Personally I found Nurse Lee to be very credible. She came forward on her own and did not even have to get involved in this mess. Even after she came forward it took a couple of weeks before LE finally questioned her. JMO

I have been more impressed with her than any of the ones who gave MJ medical care.

I am so glad that they finally talked with her and I am sure when they came today she more than willingly gave them her records.

I think she very much liked and cared for MJ as a person and his health.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:15 PM

The reason I mentioned that particular passage is because when he was using anesthesia during that tour he was also detoxing and couldn't sleep which is a major withdrawal symptom. I just wonder if that is a possibility here too! JMO

It sure makes sense to me. I know you have told me before but someone close to him mentioned he was detoxing, if so, then the insomnia would return with a vengeance and that is why he was asking the nurse in May about Diprivan. She said he was tired and sleep deprived.

imo

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 09:16 PM

You're in no trouble. There's nothing wrong with the word "junkie" and I have posted the definitions upthread.

You might be being harassed for no reason.

imo

I do feel I'm being harassed and can't imagine why? Thank you.

in my opinion

daniel green

07-22-2009, 09:17 PM

[QUOTE=Athena2;13302810]I am sorry but I had to laugh while reading this statement.

Yeah, I had to laugh, too. Seems like the doc needs better lawyers.

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:24 PM

i don't think they are "Investigating Her" persay..I think since she reported what she did..and she had access to MJ earlier in the year..and she had records of her treatments and treatment plans..These records have to be suppeona'd..she cannot just give an interview..she has to show and tell by her records..and HIPPA demands..they have to be suppeona'd..

Given her report of Mj calling her when he wanted Diprivan..but he also was complaining of chills..and feeling hot on one side, cold on another etc..and she told him to go to ER..she was concerned!! and advised against Diprivan!!

Nurse Cherilyn has no culpability in this death..one iotta..IMO

LMS

I totally agree.

I also don't think he had been taking Diprivan in the recent past. If so he would have already known where he could get it. It seems he wanted to sleep due to all the rigors that the tour rehearsal was taking and his mind never stopped so he could rest. They said MJ was even designing the programs that was going to be used in the tour. He was known as a perfectionist on stage and was engaged in every aspect of the shows and if he was trying to detox too then this would just add to a mind filled with so many thoughts bouncing off the other one.

As you know this drug does not make someone high. They sleep and MJ needed to sleep badly.

imo

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 09:27 PM

IIRC, MJ was 5'10"

imo

sunstar

07-22-2009, 09:30 PM

I have been more impressed with her than any of the ones who gave MJ medical care.

I am so glad that they finally talked with her and I am sure when they came today she more than willingly gave them her records.

I think she very much liked and cared for MJ as a person and his health.

imo

I share your thoughts, GB. Nancy Grace was just talking with her on the phone on her show. At least she didn't enable MJ by getting what he wanted and she seems to have been up front with helping LE. MOO

MiamiNice1

07-22-2009, 09:31 PM

Close enough in horse shoes and hand grenades..LOL..2" make no nevermind..he was 127 lbs..and that is not even in the scale of close to normal range!!

Anyway...One can always argue he was "Wirey"..but I really dont buy it..

LMS
"Anorexic" is the word that comes to my mind. imo.

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:35 PM

Good Eve Ms Athena...The only question I have to ask having heard all these proclamations of seeing no needle marks...I know the public never saw MJ in short sleeves..or shirtless...I wonder if any of these people ever saw Mj without total body cover..??? Lou Ferrigno has to be blind not to see this man at what 6 feet tall, weighing 127 lbs..as "In good shape"..He needs to rethink that..IMO

LMS

I don't think even in his prime MJ weighed more than 140 pounds. Many dancers are very thin.

I do believe that Lou would know what "good shape" for his size would mean though.

So many have said, yes, he was thin but very agile and was very energetic.

I have seen music videos that MJ has done where he is in a white t-shirt. I have even seen him with his shirt open. Although not skinny he has always had an extremely slight build.

imo

Firehead11

07-22-2009, 09:37 PM

He was looking for drugs. All kinds of drugs. He liked drugs. It led to his death as happens a whole lot with addicts. He certainly got the drugs he was looking for, so he got what he was looking for, no?

in my opinion

He might have been looking for drugs. He was not looking to be put to sleep forever. The doctor holds some blame for all of this. A major part of the blame. He could have refused to treat Jackson. That man was charging a little under 5 grand a day for his deadly services. All IMO.

sunstar

07-22-2009, 09:38 PM

I don't think even in his prime MJ weighed more than 140 pounds. Many dancers are very thin.

I do believe that Lou would know what "good shape" for his size would mean though.

So many have said, yes, he was thin but very agile and was very energetic.

I have seen music videos that MJ has done where he is in a white t-shirt. I have even seen him with his shirt open. Although not skinny he has always had an extremely slight build.

imo
I've seen those photos you're referring to, and could tell he was very thin by the visible bones in his chest. He did seem to have a small frame though, no where near the size of his brothers. :sad: MOO

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:40 PM

I share your thoughts, GB. Nancy Grace was just talking with her on the phone on her show. At least she didn't enable MJ by getting what he wanted and she seems to have been up front with helping LE. MOO

She seems so warm and down to earth. No wonder MJs children were drawn to her and she to them. She thought they were all beautiful, intelligent, giving and very social children and she talked about what a wonderful father MJ was and that he was the humblest man she had ever met who loved to give hugs.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 09:45 PM

I've seen those photos you're referring to, and could tell he was very thin by the visible bones in his chest. He did seem to have a small frame though, no where near the size of his brothers. :sad: MOO

That is right. He had no mass like his brothers do. He has always been an extremely thin man.

imo

sunstar

07-22-2009, 09:48 PM

Every video MJ ever did where his chest was exposed - you could see his bones. IIRC in the Black or White video he tears open his shirt and doesn't he bare his chest in "You Are Not Alone" ?

Yes, I think that's the video. And those were a few years ago! :smile:

sunstar

07-22-2009, 09:49 PM

She seems so warm and down to earth. No wonder MJs children were drawn to her and she to them. She thought they were all beautiful, intelligent, giving and very social children and she talked about what a wonderful father MJ was and that he was the humblest man she had ever met who loved to give hugs.

imo

Maybe that's why I find her so believable! :wink:

Anakerie

07-22-2009, 10:37 PM

I found this link..regarding the "Manslaughter' possible charges..This is an article by Linda Deutsch...Is this the same one from the Spector acclaim?

anyway~~

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_michael_jackson_manslaughter;_ylt=Aph91Lk1gUYll 7YIvoYdM14XIr0F;_ylu=X3oDMTMyOWcxZGc1BGFzc2V0A2FwL zIwMDkwNzIyL3VzX21pY2hhZWxfamFja3Nvbl9tYW5zbGF1Z2h 0ZXIEY3BvcwM2BHBvcwM2BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzb GsDaW5qYWNrc29uY2Fz

In Jackson case, what constitutes manslaughter?

LMS
Yep, Linda Deutsch is one of the reporters that reported on the Spector trial.. She's done a lot of "Hollywood courtroom" reporting over the years as well as other types of stories.

Anakerie

07-22-2009, 10:47 PM

Linda Deutch is a very well known AP reporter. She's been reporting for them for years. :wub:

imo

Yup! :biggrin:

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 10:55 PM

He might have been looking for drugs. He was not looking to be put to sleep forever. The doctor holds some blame for all of this. A major part of the blame. He could have refused to treat Jackson. That man was charging a little under 5 grand a day for his deadly services. All IMO.

I didn't say he was looking to sleep forever. That has nothing to do with my point. Belushi wasn't looking to sleep forever either. No addict is looking for a hot pop. But even though they know, and they do know including Mr Jackson, that they are playing Russian Roulette, they continue to look for the next fix. HE was paying this doctor big bucks. He was doing the paying to have this doctor.

Now we don't know yet who will be charged in this case if anyone is. I just heard on Nancy Grace the nurse had her office searched and files taken. The coroner is not going to overlook anyone. They are looking for who supplied all the drugs including diprivan. If an anesthesiologist got the drug for him, he'll be in trouble too.

I'm not assuming Dr Murry is a "murderer" without knowing what happened.

in my opinon

GentleBreeze

07-22-2009, 10:56 PM

-----------------

Thanks for posting that. Maybe now some will understand the meaning.
Just because some have a famous name, they cant be called a junkie?
jmo

I guess it is a personal preference what individuals call them.

I have compassion for these people because I feel they did not want to become addicted to prescription drugs so therefore "junkie" seems to be rather demeaning but then I have never cared for applying labels anyway.

imo

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 10:57 PM

-----------------

Thanks for posting that. Maybe now some will understand the meaning.
Just because some have a famous name, they cant be called a junkie?
jmo

Just because some have a famous name, are they not entitled to some degree of compassion?

Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.
Dalai Lama

retiredcop

07-22-2009, 11:02 PM

----------

Were u talking about me? If so, yes i did say that.

And why not. If the shoe fits........

in my opinion

ScoobyDoo

07-22-2009, 11:04 PM

I didn't say he was looking to sleep forever. That has nothing to do with my point. Belushi wasn't looking to sleep forever either.

snipped

in my opinon

The woman who administered the drug to Belushi spent time in prison for her role in his death. Would M. Jackson be dead if not for the intervening action of the doctor?

The doctor should be afforded the same rights as any other person suspected of causing the death of another human. No more, no less.

imo...of course.