Michael Jackson Thread July 15 ~ [Archive]

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 04:18 AM

Blessings to the Jackson family in their time of grief.
May they be empowered with strength and guidance as they endure the media and the negativity of others as they grieve the loss of their loved one.
The world feels your pain and will always miss Michael for the music and the joy he gave the world for 50 years. ~

Thanks Pattycake what wonderful caring words to start off with..thank you..

AMAZING the amount of people who did love MJ and appreciate his talent..I hope he is looking down and seeing so many did love him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJVRywgmYM

disneyfreak

07-15-2009, 04:20 AM

My post from yesterday's thread.

I never liked him as a child actor, but he knocked me away as an adult in the 2003 film Party Monster (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320244/). I was very impressed.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 04:28 AM

Did some more digging. Rebecca White is an MTV reporter. She did an interview with DR in 2008. Video of the partial interview here too:

Jul 13 2009 7:09 AM EDT
Exclusive: Debbie Rowe Talks Fame, Regrets Before Michael Jackson's Death
MTV News sent a writer to the home of the late singer's ex-wife in 2008.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1615692/20090713/jackson_michael.jhtml

Goodnight. Gonna try to get some sleep. :seeya:

Night Athena thanks a bunch...I just read it did not know there was a video darn it..lol.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:04 AM

I am not on here to bash DR I am only stating the fact she never wanted to be a mother she has made that totally clear..she says in this legal document she wanted to give up custody a year prior but she knew people would be in a round about way bashing her as a mother...it even says DR you know you will not have any rights to come back later and change this her answer yes I know..she is also ask on page 6 what if something would happen to MJ and he died..her answer..I am sure he...has a wonderful person to take care of them

now IMO she should have no rights to these kids it is all on legal documents why was it overturned what was the technically? because I think that right there shows she had no intentions of wanting those children even if he was dead...she is in it for the money I am sure she has lawyers breathing down her neck about all the money the kids will bring in...she hates cameras she hates not having privacy there is no way in H** she can deal with this..she had one guy arrested for taking a photo and he was not even on her property which makes NO since to me since they sure do not arrest every photo hog that is in for the best picture no matter what they have to do even if it is a dead MJ in the back of a ambulance..she better hang on tight because she is in for the long haul if she goes after the kids..the cops will not protect her forever but if they get to close she just tells her babys the freaking dogs to go and attack as she said in the MTV interview...

page 7 has any promises been made to you directly or by MJ
SHE SAYS NO I want this she said she had not seen or talked to him in quite awhile...

page 9 she says it one more time..if he could not care for them she is sure he has someone to help
all JMO
OCTOBER 2001
http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-related/daming-docs-from-debbie-rowe-parental-rights-termination-hearing.html

and then we also know she went back to court during the trial so she has made 3 attempts to get cash this will just be the 4th I guess:thumbdown:

disneyfreak

07-15-2009, 05:05 AM

Interesting interview. Especially this part:

After that, she went to work for the aforementioned Dr. Klein — who just so happens to be , the dermatologist Jackson began visiting in the mid-1980s (and the man some are claiming is the biological father of Prince and Paris Jackson, the children Rowe gave birth to while married to the singer). She said she still keeps in touch with Klein, whom she described as being "sharp as a tack."

I didn't know the rumors went back to prior to MJ's death.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:31 AM

SMOKEY ROBINSON STILL REELING FROM MICHAEL JACKSON'S DEATH
We asked Robinson if he was disappointed at the amount of coverage given to Jackson's personal problems and legal troubles throughout the past 15 years of his life: "Y'know what, 90 percent of it I am. When people are trying to dwell upon what they consider to be the negative parts of his life, that bothers me, because he did so much for the world and was such a generous man , and he did so much for music -- he broke down a lot of barriers as far as videos and things like that, and got black people into some places where prior to that they had not been in those areas. And for anybody to dwell upon what they think he did negatively -- it bothers me."http://www.kblx.com/morning_show/hollywood_minute.shtml

JACKSON FAMILY REALITY SHOW ON THE ROCKS AFTER MICHAEL'S DEATH?
"We have started discussing internally and with the family but have not yet decided what direction to take with the show," said A&E executives in a statement. "We are respecting the family's wishes right now, and at the appropriate time we will all decide what direction this program to take, so stay tuned."

http://www.kblx.com/morning_show/hollywood_minute.shtml

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:35 AM

My post from yesterday's thread.

I never liked him as a child actor, but he knocked me away as an adult in the 2003 film Party Monster (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320244/). I was very impressed.

I have never seen it..may have to see if I can find it..BTW morning

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:43 AM

OK who ever told me I was wrong and Jennifer Hudson was advised not to fly because of her being so close to her due date but she did anyway and you said she was living in CA anyway..U WERE NOT CORRECT..I was right:tonguewag: I remember her being interviewed but was not going to bicker about it with out a link to what I knew...to be TRUE I think she must have really thought alot of MJ and his family to risk it..and she is a very strong women who has been through h**

After suffering through her own family tragedy last year, when her mother, brother, and nephew were murdered, Hudson returned to the public eye with performances at the Super Bowl and at the Grammy Awards.Though Hudson has not made any public statement about her impending bundle of joy with fiance David Otunga, friends estimate that she is about eight months along. And while most expectant mothers are advised not to fly after their seventh month of pregnancy, Hudson took the risk by catching a flight from Miami to participate in the event.According to reports, the Oscar winner is safe at home once more in Florida and is actually in her ninth month, with the birth expected in the next few weeks. After the birth, Hudson will adjust to motherhood and then get to work on songs for the follow-up to her Grammy winning 2008 debut, Jennifer Hudson.

http://www.hot1063.com/blog.asp?id=29280

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:59 AM

I think MJ was loved more than some know yes alot were not at his memorial but BET re did the whole show in 2 days..Madonna paid tribute to him during her concert..I can go on and on..also I just seen this...not sure if this link will work I downloaded it..if not use the other link and scroll to the bottom

http://www.hot1063.com/goout.asp?u=http://usershare.net/38n0o4y700mp
http://www.hot1063.com/blog.asp?id=29280

Sean "Diddy" Combs, The Game, Chris Brown, Mario Winans, Polow Da Don, Usher, & Boyz II Men have hooked up for a special tribute track the late king of pop, Michael Jackson. The song titled, "Better On The Other Side," is currently available for download right here . Diddy begins the song with a talking intro where he says, "I remember the first time I seen you moonwalk, I believed I could do anything, you made the world dance, you made the music come to life. Mike Jack. Why? You were the greatest. God chose you. We will never forget you. We miss you.":crying:

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:05 AM

Since I am a fair person and if I post something about what DR got I will also post what she did not get..for one I do not pay to read anything so I DO NOT know if this is true but will post it and I am sure it will be the wrong thing to do but we are all adults here the last time I checked..IMO DR has been given enough for a GIFT and if she did it for him then she should have walked away and stayed away...and these dolllar amount are not the same ones I saw on another site..also there is not 1 thing in the 2001 legal document that I posted that says he had not paid her..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmtpi/is_200607/ai_n16567729/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.22

Michael Jackson's legal problems have doubled.

M.J.'s former beloved missus Debbie Rowe, who incubated Jackson children Prince Michael Joseph Jackson, 9, and Paris-Michael Katherine Jackson, 8, has filed a lawsuit against Michael in L.A. Superior Court.

Deb wants an immediate judgment of $195,000 for lawyer fees and $50,000 in living expenses so she can continue an earlier suit she filed to recover payments she says Jackson promised her upon their '99 divorce.

Rowe gave up parental rights to the kids in 2001 but filed to reinstate them in '03 when Jackson was arrested for child molestation. She says M.J. retaliated by stopping the payments ($1 mil a year for the first three years and $750,000 a year for six more). ...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200505/ai_n14748507/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.11
Police sergeant Steve Robel also testified that Debbie Rowe, who was married to Jackson from 1996 to 1999, had said she agreed to make only constructive statements about the singer after their divorce.

Robel's evidence went some way to mitigating the impact of Rowe's testimony last week when, to the dismay of prosecutors who called her as a witness, she lauded Jackson as "generous to a fault" and "a great father."

and I have no doubt her trying to get the kids in case he went to prison was a motive and she got some money and OMG she changed her tune...so trust who you shall I do not trust a mother that sells her children over and over. JMO

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 07:06 AM

This may be another rumor but this time it names a source:

LOS ANGELES - Debbie Rowe told a backstabbing pal "Hell no!" to the idea of raising the two kids she bore ex-hubby Michael Jackson, bombshell e-mails she reportedly wrote reveal.

"Do I want the kids? Hell no! Does it look good for me to ask for them? Absolutely," she wrote July 5 to friend Rebecca White, ExtraTV.com reported. "I don't want to look like the woman who gave away her kids."

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/michael_jackson/2009/07/14/2009-07-14_hell_no_debbie_rowe_does_not_want_michael_jacks ons_kids_but_is_mulling_bid_for_c.html#ixzz0LJSila 3n&D

On the contrary, Debbie does not look like the woman who "gave away" her kids. She looks like the one who SOLD them.

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 07:25 AM

On the contrary, Debbie does not look like the woman who "gave away" her kids. She looks like the one who SOLD them.

AMEN KELLABECK. I was wondering just how many times she can do this whether it's under the guise of horse upkeep, blackmail, or reselling what she has already TRIED TO LEGALLY GIVE AWAY through the COURTS for a tidy sum MIND YOU?????????????

DEBBIE ROWE HAS NO SHAME WHATSOEVER and if I wasn't SICK INSIDE FOR THOSE BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN she provided a VESSEL FOR, :sad: I MIGHT EVEN FEEL PITY FOR HER.

BUT NOT SO MUCH HERE. :thumbdown: JMO

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:34 AM

Today Show is talking about the investigation now. Tune in if you can.

missed it anything good?

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:37 AM

aproudmom, do you realize you've been posting for almost 24 hrs? You ok?

:ohmy:

The cover of the NY Post today:

http://www.nypost.com/

what no I did not log out when I went to my sons ballgame yesterday evening late afternoon..does it still keep you logged in? Unless some one else was on here but would have had to been a ghost..lol..

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:40 AM

Me too. I'm sure it will be repeated or you could view it via their website.

cool thanks I will look..

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:45 AM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=7&entry_id=43598

Joe Jackson: 'Michael only wanted to do 10 shows'

AP Photo/John Smierciak

Joe Jackson.
Michael Jackson's father Joe knew his superstar son would have struggled to complete his 50-date comeback in London -- because the "Thriller" legend only ever wanted to perform 10 concerts.

10 concerts wouldn't make a dent in the hefty debt he owed.

ok do not have a link but remember this very well MJ said he went to bed thinking he had signed on for 10 and then woke up to 30 and he had posted in some blog or something that he had no idea if he could do that many but he was so afraid no one would want to come when the tickets sold out so fast AEG ask to up it to 30 and then sold out very fast again so called someone and ask if MJ would be willing to do 50..I think he was shocked he still could sell out concerts but knew he could not do it...JMO

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:49 AM

My point is it doesn't look like you've gotten any rest since you came back from the game. Not healthy. MJ story will go on for yrs. You won't miss anything. LOL

Oh I know I laid down and took a nap late so could not go back to bed..I do not sleep but 3 or 4 hours a night..I know it is not healthy hey you trying to get rid of me..:tonguewag:

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:54 AM

My point is it doesn't look like you've gotten any rest since you came back from the game. Not healthy. MJ story will go on for yrs. You won't miss anything. LOL

once the tox and autopsy's is released I will not be on here to much I am sure it will slow down..usually I am on the amber alert threads but got so sad all the missing kids..didn't they say if could be next week?

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 08:02 AM

MJ posted on a blog? Well anyway, he should have taken up his concern with AEG and not signed on for that many. I suspect his drug use didn't help in this matter. imo

I can not remember if it was a blog on his official site I really can not remember and maybe he told someone that..it was just days after he died they were talking about it..I think he over did it and they had already pushed back a couple of weeks and alot of ticket holders were so angry..I really do not think he could have done it..or maybe he could I don't know..I just read Ushers wife almost died while getting put under for liposuction a couple of months ago..very scary thank god she was there when she went into cardiac arrest as soon as they hooked up the anesthesia..I am sure he thought of that when he was at the memorial even though as far as I know she was not on other meds..

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 08:21 AM

No, just concerned. 3-4 hrs? Yikes!

:ohmy:

well thanks for being concerned..It is normal..so I am used to it..I saw your post about him not being buried I agree I also thought about that I am just wondering why the hold up are they not all on the same page are they trying to get permission to have him at Neverland...really makes no since unless they are waiting until his brain is released but I really doubt it..I thought he was in one of Gordy's or do we even know...I guess for all we know he has been buried and they are just not saying..

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 08:46 AM

I am glad she uses twitter seems they are reporting so much false crap it is ridiculous...this was a scheduled hopsital stay

Liz Taylor in scheduled hospital visit

"She's suffering weakness, tiredness, exhaustion, emotional draining. She hasn't stopped crying. She and Michael were devoted to one another."

But Taylor, 77, had announced via her Twitter account on July 5 that she would be in hospital this week.

"I wanted you my friends to know that I'm going into the hospital Wednesday or Thursday to complete a test I was in the middle of," she wrote on Twitter on Sunday July 5.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 08:50 AM

flipflop

07-15-2009, 08:57 AM

ish

07-15-2009, 09:35 AM

ok do not have a link but remember this very well MJ said he went to bed thinking he had signed on for 10 and then woke up to 30 and he had posted in some blog or something that he had no idea if he could do that many but he was so afraid no one would want to come when the tickets sold out so fast AEG ask to up it to 30 and then sold out very fast again so called someone and ask if MJ would be willing to do 50..I think he was shocked he still could sell out concerts but knew he could not do it...JMO

my bolding. Perhaps not remembering how many shows he signed up for is a clue that he was not functioning as well as he should. If it were me I might start to think about what I'm doing that is causing a lapse in my memory. With the amount of money he had riding on this tour he needed to be at his best physically and mentally.

VC2

07-15-2009, 09:35 AM

LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide

Posted Jul 15th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.

Law enforcement sources tell us the evidence points to the anesthesia Propofol as the primary cause of Jackson's death. As we first reported, vials of Propofol were found in Jackson's home after he died.

Law enforcement sources say there is already "plenty of powerful evidence" linking Dr. Murray as the person who administered the drug to Jackson. The evidence includes various items found in Jackson's house, including the Propofol, an IV stand and oxygen tank.

Dr. Murray's lawyer would neither confirm nor deny if his client administered the Propofol.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/

Has this been posted? I tried to check back if. If it has let me know real quick and I can delete this post. Thanks. :smile:

Thank you flip flop. Yes i believe that homicide charges will be forthcoming against Dr. Murray. This is not a drug overdose in any usual sense and in fact since MJ was using it to try and sleep it was up to the Dr. to at a minimum have all needed rescue equipment with him if he was going to administer it. If he died then, i would say it was simple negligence and malpractice but the lack of equipment with a drug known to be lethal even when used in a hospital is more than that.

IMO

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 09:42 AM

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, imo. :rolleyes:

WOW, you know other female vessels for babies who come back again and again seeking more money for their services? Do you have a link to that one? :w00t:
WOW....:unsure: JMO.

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 09:45 AM

Thank you flip flop. Yes i believe that homicide charges will be forthcoming against Dr. Murray. This is not a drug overdose in any usual sense and in fact since MJ was using it to try and sleep it was up to the Dr. to at a minimum have all needed rescue equipment with him if he was going to administer it. If he died then, i would say it was simple negligence and malpractice but the lack of equipment with a drug known to be lethal even when used in a hospital is more than that.

IMO

Morning VC, just remembering that notice for patients TMZ had at one point. Wasn't that from Dr. Murray addressing his wonderful opportunity? JMO, but OH MY....I can't even imagine what he's thinking about now, unless he's being taken care of and it's bigger than any of us know. :sneaky:

ALL JMO:cursing:

ish

07-15-2009, 09:48 AM

well I am outta her going to cook breakfast for my boys...everyone have a great day..

Family had drug intervention for Michael Jackson: Tito

"We burst right into the house and he was surprised to see us to say the least. We went into one of his private rooms and had a discussion with him. Some of us were crying."
http://livenews.com.au/entertainment/family-had-drug-intervention-for-michael-jackson-tito/2009/7/15/213008

Wait a minute, didn't we just hear that the family released a statement that there was no intervention? THey denied having one totally, everyone signed the statement except Janet? It was also reported that they attempted one but that MJ's staff refused them entrance to the property and it never took place. We are getting conflicting stories from family members, do any of them really know what is going on?
RE: Joe Jackson's interview on Prime Time. He states he was involved in Michael's meetings with AEG regarding this upcoming tour, discussing merchandising and other subjects, this doesn't seem likely considering Michael's alleged dislike, distrust of his father. Joe stated he took Michael aside and told him to "look out for these people" and Michael said he was. Something doesn't ring true here.

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 09:49 AM

The way I understand it...Michale Jackson....did not pay her as originally agreed. She wants her money.

as usual...MJ didn't pay the bill. imo

I think now that more is starting to surface, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. I wonder how much Grace knows about the deals between Debbie Rowe and Michael Jackson......:wink:

Time will tell and my money says much will be revealed about the wheelings and dealings one way or the other. JMOOC. :ohmy:

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 09:52 AM

I am bring this post over. The thread was closed before I could reply to Aproudmom.

maybe it never mattered to him he was a proud father blood does not make you a parent he has raised them for 12 and 11 and 7 years he is their father IMO..by blood I doubt it but who's business is it he was not privy to tell anyone who's sperm was used IMO...He is on the BC as the father..and DR gave all rights up but it was overturned by another judge due to a technicality..not being rude just do not know why it is such a big deal..they are and will always be MJ children...

http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-related/daming-docs-from-debbie-rowe-parental-rights-termination-hearing.html

It really isn't a big deal to the ones that really matter, the court. But it is a very big deal to the gossip lovers who buy tabloids by the millions weekly and to the media networks who are now using tabloid information as legitimate news sources so they can spoon feed the ardent watchers and readers who want more and more titillating gossip.

This is not a case to determine paternity. This is a case where a Judge will determine who gets guardianship or custody of MJs children now that he is deceased.

I do think that DR will be given visitation rights even though I don't think she even deserves that much.

By law DR and MJ are the parents of Prince and Paris.
By law MJ is the legal parent of Prince II and the surrogate mother is unknown by choice. That is why the birth certificate was filed with the mother's name being blank. It is the legal and accepted way to do so when the surrogate is unknown.

I don't think Paris or Prince looks like DR. Her facial bone structure to me is rather bulky and large. While Paris is lighter skinned tone than her brother, Prince, that is it when looking like DR to me. Now Prince and Blanket both have beautiful olive skin. I don't know their true heritage nor do I care. All I know is all three children of MJs children are extremely beautiful children imo

JMO

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 09:56 AM

I totally appreciated his talent.

I have a different opinion...if he's looking anywhere, it's up. imo

Thank goodness, your opinion doesn't matter to the one sitting on the throne looking down on you.
:rolleyes:

ish

07-15-2009, 09:57 AM

Feel the same way Bly. I hope the courts take her lack of action into consideration and not give her those children. IMO, they'd be better off with a whole new family and not exploited further. imo

Agreed, once those kids are awarded to Katherine, Joe will be there in a flash. I'd put money on seeing them in the not so distant future, if not performing, at least being trotted out for money making purposes.
Joe Jackson is not going to let one dollar he can make off of them slip thru his fingers, once Michael got to the age of 18 he lost control over his income. These kids have several years of earning capacity ahead of them. He sees dollar signs...

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 10:00 AM

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 10:00 AM

Did some more digging. Rebecca White is an MTV reporter. She did an interview with DR in 2008. Video of the partial interview here too:

Jul 13 2009 7:09 AM EDT
Exclusive: Debbie Rowe Talks Fame, Regrets Before Michael Jackson's Death
MTV News sent a writer to the home of the late singer's ex-wife in 2008.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1615692/20090713/jackson_michael.jhtml

Goodnight. Gonna try to get some sleep. :seeya:

I watched one video where she was interviewed by a MTV reporter. It may be this one. But good grief DR has got horse breeding on the brain.

That is 95% of what she talked about.

imo

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 10:05 AM

I have a question....

If Katherine is awarded custody and then were to die (God forbid) can she leave in her will who is to have custody after her or would the kids go to Diana Ross?

Anybody have an idea?

No, Katie she can't. She has no legal power to assign another person since MJ clearly stated if Katherine was incapable or deceased then Diana Ross would raise the children.

Since the kids are already 12,11 and 7 and Ross is only 65 there is a very good chance that Ross will still be capable of taking care of the children, which she has already said she would do, if Katherine could not do so.

imo

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 10:07 AM

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 10:08 AM

Nor yours.
:tonguewag:

You are certainly right about that.........nor anyone else's opinions either.

That is the way He is......He doesn't have to have mere mortals think for Him.:smile:

imo

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 10:12 AM

Interesting read about the custody issue courtesy of Marcia Clark (yes, that Marcia Clark.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-15/jackson-kids-for-sale/?cid=hp:blogunit1

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 10:12 AM

No, Katie she can't. She has no legal power to assign another person since MJ clearly stated if Katherine was incapable or deceased then Diana Ross would raise the children.

Since the kids are already 12,11 and 7 and Ross is only 65 there is a very good chance that Ross will still be capable of taking care of the children, which she has already said she would do, if Katherine could not do so.

imo

Thanks! These poor kids :sad:

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 10:14 AM

Interesting read about the custody issue courtesy of Marcia Clark (yes, that Marcia Clark.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-15/jackson-kids-for-sale/?cid=hp:blogunit1

Thanks Kella

bkwits

07-15-2009, 10:17 AM

If he's talking, someone is paying! imo

Yes, I think he copied what Grace said. He claimed last night on tv that he had spoken to MJ recently and had the above conversation.....talked all about the money from the come back concerts. Joe told him to be careful and watch out for "those" people.

yet out the other side of his mouth...he says their was a conspiracy and no one could get to MJ or talk to him. Even calls from his mother couldn't get through.

I doubt that ABC is paying Joe J. I think he is trying to rehabilitate his image. He has softened his stance on some opinions.For example, he hedged about whether he would promote the children, but his eyes lit up in talking about the possibility of Paris as a performer.

Did you notice that he said Katherine and I should raise the children. But he was much calmer and more genteel (if one can ever say that about Joe J. ) than he normally is.

JMO

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 10:18 AM

Yes, I read that as well. I believe I may have posted that story on the weekend thread. Didn't LaToya say that "not even Joe could get in the few times he supposedly tried"?

You didn't dream it.

Did you see Jermain being interviews on the Today Show? He said something to the affect that they were all together a few weeks ago. BS!! "Michael and the kids, we were all together happy".

These people just make it up as they go along. IMo[/COLOR]

Makes me wonder if any of them ever tell the truth.
:sad:

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 10:20 AM

AMEN KELLABECK. I was wondering just how many times she can do this whether it's under the guise of horse upkeep, blackmail, or reselling what she has already TRIED TO LEGALLY GIVE AWAY through the COURTS for a tidy sum MIND YOU?????????????

DEBBIE ROWE HAS NO SHAME WHATSOEVER and if I wasn't SICK INSIDE FOR THOSE BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN she provided a VESSEL FOR, :sad: I MIGHT EVEN FEEL PITY FOR HER.

BUT NOT SO MUCH HERE. :thumbdown: JMO

Honestly, without holding any animosity toward Ms. Rowe, I'm still out on having an opinion on the arrangement made by Mr. Jackson with Ms. Rowe. It can be looked at as one sold and one bought children.
It can also be looked at as one gave the other the most important thing in his life and the other paid in a divorce settlement.

my opnion only

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 10:23 AM

Got that right.

MJ is in hell. Sinners go to hell. He slept with little boys, he was a drug addict, was a major con artist, drugs around his kids and a thief. What talent he had a long time ago he threw away.

What a great person to admire GB. :thumbdown:

imo

And he bought his children.

My opinion of course.

lilismom

07-15-2009, 10:31 AM

Honestly, without holding any animosity toward Ms. Rowe, I'm still out on having an opinion on the arrangement made by Mr. Jackson with Ms. Rowe. It can be looked at as one sold and one bought children.
It can also be looked at as one gave the other the most important thing in his life and the other paid in a divorce settlement.

my opnion only

Did he have to marry her to seal the deal? So that the kids were legally his? Didn't Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick use a surrogate to birth their twins? Aren't the twins "legally" theirs? I'm sure there is a contract signed before payment is made. Was the sham marriage even necessary?

I'm pretty sure that If KJ is awarded guardianship over the kids and she dies, they then go to Diana Ross. KJ can't will the guardianship of them to anyone else. MJ spelled out clearly what he wanted to happen with them and it certainly wasn't for them to go live with Debbie Rowe.

IMO,
Lilismom

ish

07-15-2009, 10:32 AM

Makes me wonder if any of them ever tell the truth.
:sad:

The Jacksons are fast turning into the Anthonys (Casey's family), another group of people who cannot get their stories straight.

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 10:36 AM

I watched one video where she was interviewed by a MTV reporter. It may be this one. But good grief DR has got horse breeding on the brain.

That is 95% of what she talked about.

imo

AMEN to that GB. When I heard her describing the way she served as a vessel for the children and realized she was going to compare it to impregnating the horse, I became astutely aware of how limited her life skills really seem to be and the children do not belong near her IMO. :eek:

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 10:37 AM

She is, what she is. IMO She stood by while her children were being beaten, abused and emotionally tortured. She did nothing when her husband ran around and slept with anyone that would have him. She remains married to the abuser/ adulterer and still "gushes" like a school girl when talking about him. imo

I have zero respect for her as a mother, wife, and now most importantly...grandmother. IMO Absolutely post of the day, Bly..!!! Thanks for saying what I have been thinking for quite some time.... A Mother, IMO, should be the protector of their children.. Even against their own Father, if necessary.. She failed Michael miserably, and now is raising his children... A big mistake, IMO...

Poochie

ish

07-15-2009, 10:44 AM

Did he have to marry her to seal the deal? So that the kids were legally his? Didn't Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick use a surrogate to birth their twins? Aren't the twins "legally" theirs? I'm sure there is a contract signed before payment is made. Was the sham marriage even necessary?

I'm pretty sure that If KJ is awarded guardianship over the kids and she dies, they then go to Diana Ross. KJ can't will the guardianship of them to anyone else. MJ spelled out clearly what he wanted to happen with them and it certainly wasn't for them to go live with Debbie Rowe.

IMO,
Lilismom

I think they married to further the story that Michael was the bio father, to try and convince the public that MJ actually did the nasty with a woman. The "child molester" stories were not going away after the Lisa Marie Presley marriage/divorce and I think he was doing damage control. Marrying and having children (the old fashioned way allegedly) would help his image he thought.

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 10:44 AM

Did he have to marry her to seal the deal? So that the kids were legally his? Didn't Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick use a surrogate to birth their twins? Aren't the twins "legally" theirs? I'm sure there is a contract signed before payment is made. Was the sham marriage even necessary?

I'm pretty sure that If KJ is awarded guardianship over the kids and she dies, they then go to Diana Ross. KJ can't will the guardianship of them to anyone else. MJ spelled out clearly what he wanted to happen with them and it certainly wasn't for them to go live with Debbie Rowe.

IMO,
Lilismom

I don't think Ms Rowe can be looked at as a surrogate. They were married. They got a divorce and the children were awarded to Mr. Jackson. Ms. Rowe received a settlement regarding the divorce. That means neither sold or bought.

If you would have looked at the partial documents I posted a link to yesterday, Ms. Rowe got very little in comparison to what many women get in a divorce with wealthy men and they keep the children.

As to who the children live with, it would be what is in the best interest of the children over the will if this custody battle goes in front of the courts.

I think the Jacksons worry about that decision going in front of the courts for that very reason.

in my opinion only of course

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 10:49 AM

MJ did not father the kids and never adopted them legally. He bought them. DR is their biological mother. She has her rights of those children. The saga continues...

imo

Not according to Calif law.....

IMO

ish

07-15-2009, 10:52 AM

AMEN to that GB. When I heard her describing the way she served as a vessel for the children and realized she was going to compare it to impregnating the horse, I became astutely aware of how limited her life skills really seem to be and the children do not belong near her IMO. :eek:

Yet this is the woman MJ chose to be the biological mother of his children, regardless if he intended them to be raised by her, her contribution to the gene pool that created these children is 100% greater than his (0%). You would think he would been more concerned with what type of person the mother would be, as it is not clear yet as to whether it is nature or nuture that has the greater influence on how a child turns out.

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:00 AM

bkwits

07-15-2009, 11:00 AM

I think they married to further the story that Michael was the bio father, to try and convince the public that MJ actually did the nasty with a woman. The "child molester" stories were not going away after the Lisa Marie Presley marriage/divorce and I think he was doing damage control. Marrying and having children (the old fashioned way allegedly) would help his image he thought.

IMO, Michael married Debbie so that he would be the legal father of the children. Had they not married (assuming Michael is not the bio father), he would have not claim on the children if Debbie decided she wanted custody. Debbie claims that after Paris was born and she couldn't have more children, Michael was done with her and totally ignored her.IMO

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:03 AM

Surrogates do it all the time....perfectly legal

Not defending her....I'm just saying

IMO

That's what has me wondering why he had to marry her? Can't a single man use a surrogate, draw up a contract, agree on a sum, get the child and the surrogate be gone?

IMO,
Lilismom

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:04 AM

Got that right.

MJ is in hell. Sinners go to hell.

imo

Yeah as if you would know. :rolleyes:

That is preposterous. :lol:

Sinners go to hell? Ummm all mortals sin and no one knows that better than God.

imo

ish

07-15-2009, 11:05 AM

I think they sat in that dermatologists office one day and MJ said he wanted children and she had a womb she wasn't using. I think she agreed and lawyers became involved. I think the marriage was a sham and was only entered into because buying and children is illegal. MJ's lawyers found a way to skirt that law. I believe the amount of $$$ was agreed upon from the get go. When she bore him a second child, a new deal was struck and when she was rendered unable to have any more kids, she was cut loose, just like a broodmare. imo

Agreed, but I do think there was some "romancing" of Ms Rowe for a period, where MJ used his persona to manipulate a mostly likely star struck indivdual into giving in to what he wanted, much like he did later with regard to the doctor shopping.

MJ was a very shrewd businessman, his little boy lost voice and persona were very much for public viewing only. I have read and heard many individuals over the years say that the MJ they know and have been around speaks in a normal voice, soft spoken yes, but no where near the baby doll voice he uses with the "public". He played a part for his fans, I heard him say the other night on Geraldo that as he aged he saw more of his father in him and I agree. I believe underneath the Peter Pan outside, was a cold, ruthless performer, who cut those people who didn't bend to his will out of his life.

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:07 AM

That's what has me wondering why he had to marry her? Can't a single man use a surrogate, draw up a contract, agree on a sum, get the child and the surrogate be gone?

IMO,
Lilismom

I'm not sure? But, for me anyway, it does bolster the "MJ is not the bio Dad" claim. His marriage to DR would have taken care of that problem IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:08 AM

What other type of woman would have children and hand them ( sell them) over to him?

You would think, because she gave him, what he cherished most in this world, he would have...... at the very least, honored the financial agreement he entered into.

And people here claim it was HER idea for the children to wear the masks! HA! HA! HA! Like MJ RESPECTED her enough to honor HER wishes. imo

I know the statement came from DR herself...and I say...she said what she HOPED she would be paid to say. imo

Actually, I think most of what Ms Rowe has said was to Mr Jackson's advantage. She probably signed a non-disclosure agreement to say the right things and certainly not any truth as it were.

Likewise, I believe it was Mr. Jackson who wanted her to give up all rights to the children in court which failed and her rights were restored.
Their she got lucky.

I have heard there will be DNA testing of the children regarding Mr. Jackson and Ms. Rowe.

I have also heard the arrangement Mr. Jackson had with Ms. Rowe ended when he died.

All in my opinion of course.

bkwits

07-15-2009, 11:08 AM

Not according to Calif law.....

IMO

Here in Illinois, she would have rights as the surviving parent. Wasn't in CA that the child of Melissa Huckaby (the woman who allegdely abducted and murdered Sandra Cantu) was given to her father to raise. The father had rarely seen the child and did not pay the child support that was awarded. The parents of Huckaby fought tooth and nail for custody of the child. The child had spent a good part of her life with them and barely knew her father.

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:10 AM

Which part? Can you be more specific?

They were married...no one contested his fatherhood for 2 years. So in the eyes of the law he is their father...period.

IMO

ish

07-15-2009, 11:11 AM

What other type of woman would have children and hand them ( sell them) over to him?

You would think, because she gave him, what he cherished most in this world, he would have...... at the very least, honored the financial agreement he entered into.

And people here claim it was HER idea for the children to wear the masks! HA! HA! HA! Like MJ RESPECTED her enough to honor HER wishes. imo

I know the statement came from DR herself...and I say...she said what she HOPED she would be paid to say. imo

I saw Dr Klein on LKL saying the masks were Martin Bashir and Uri Gellers suggestion, a conspiracy (of course) to make Michael look weird in Bashirs documentary. That the kids never wore them any other time that he saw them. Strange because I saw a clip of Jackson leaving Kleins office with his little white surgical mask, followed by Paris also in the same type of white surgical mask.

bkwits

07-15-2009, 11:12 AM

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:13 AM

Here in Illinois, she would have rights as the surviving parent. Wasn't in CA that the child of Melissa Huckaby (the woman who allegdely abducted and murdered Sandra Cantu) was given to her father to raise. The father had rarely seen the child and did not pay the child support that was awarded. The parents of Huckaby fought tooth and nail for custody of the child. The child had spent a good part of her life with them and barely knew her father.

What I was talking about was if MJ was the children's father. Not if DR had rights or not.

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:14 AM

Marry another woman who is pregant does not make you the biological father. The sperm was not from MJ. It was from another man. Bio and legally the father are two different things. imo

I am only speaking of the legal issue. And right now IMO that is all that counts. If he is the bio dad or not will not come into the question of who should have the kids. IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:16 AM

Is there any proof or concrete reason to believe that Michael Jackson and Debra Rowe entered into a contractual agreement (regarding a payment to Rowe) before she got pregnant or before the first child was born?

Only the documents I found which were 1999. I haven't found anything else as of now.

in my opinion

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:17 AM

MJ did not father the kids and never adopted them legally. He bought them. DR is their biological mother. She has her rights of those children. The saga continues...

imo

I thought it was funny in Marcia Clark's article when she said that DR shouldn't have custody of even a water bug.:wink:

He didnt have to adopt them. What don't you understand about that? They were married when both children were born and by CL. law and most other states, he was presumed to be the father. In 11 and 12 years no one has disputed that. If the children are raised to believe he is their father, then even if he knew he wasn't and tried to fight child support for them, should DR had gotten them back then, he would be unable to do so by California law. He IS the legally reconized father.

No Judge in this country is going to scream out to children who has lost their parent in death and say "he was not your bio father, therefore...." :rolleyes:They do what is in the best interest of the children who have long bonded with their daddy who has been there since birth and follow the letter of the law. It is obvious that MJ in their eyes was/is and will always be their father.

imo

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:19 AM

Good Morning everyone....:loveeyes:

lilismom..I guess your question can be seen as far too simplified..Surrogacy laws are in such flux..and I for one had no idea where they were at 10-12 years ago..So I would think that MJ went the path pf least resistance..to obtain kids, that would be difficult to remove from him, and the fact he could afford ( deep pockets) to obtain his life's dream...

Here a link that shows just how complicated "Surrogacy" is in USA.

http://www.surrogacy.com/legals/map.html

Here's what I found on California State law surrounding this issue..and if you look at it..many of the cases date back to 1993-98...not so long ago in the scheme of things..

http://www.surrogacy.com/legals/article/calaw.html

If you read this leal mumbo jumbo..you can see it is very complicated!

LMS:blink:

Do you think surrogacy laws apply to this case? They were married and divorced.

in my opinion

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:20 AM

I thought it was funny in Marcia Clark's article when she said that DR shouldn't have custody of even a water bug.:wink:

He didnt have to adopt them. What don't you understand about that? They were married when both children were born and by CL. law and most other states, he was presumed to be the father. In 11 and 12 years no one has disputed that. If the children are raised to believe he is their father, then even if he knew he wasn't and tried to fight child support for them, should DR had gotten them back then, he would be unable to do so by California law. He IS the legally reconized father.

No Judge in this country is going to scream out to children who has lost their parent in death and say "he was not your bio father, therefore...." :rolleyes:They do what is in the best interest of the children who have long bonded with their daddy who has been there since birth and follow the letter of the law. It is obvious that MJ in their eyes was/is and will always be their father.

imo

You are correct GB...he did not, by law, have to adopt them. Doesn't really matter to me if he is the Bio dad or not. It plays no part in the custody battle IMO

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:21 AM

Do you think surrogacy laws apply to this case? They were married and divorced.

in my opinion

IMO they don't

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:22 AM

MJ was not your average man. He wanted to make the world believe he was by marrying Lisa marie Preslie and Debbie Rowe. It was a scam to con his fans. imo

I don't know that I have a problem so much with him using her to have children and then paying her a "divorce settlement" in exchange. Especially when surrogacy is legal. Isn't it basically the same thing only with the marriage making them their "legal" children rather than a formal, written contract? Does make me wonder though why he didn't adopt? Especially now when it has become plain, to me at least, that they are not his, nor her, biological children. After all, what was the point then? I don't have a problem being wrong on this. With my own two eyes though, I don't see any resemblance to either of them.

So true what I think it was you who said earlier - how sad that here we are, debating the childrens' future, and there he remains, the superstar, just another body in the basement. Sad indeed. :crying:

IMO,
Lilismom

bkwits

07-15-2009, 11:24 AM

Enough already about the sinners go to hell. Only God knows. Let's not get the thread closed.

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:26 AM

I don't know that I have a problem so much with him using her to have children and then paying her a "divorce settlement" in exchange. Especially when surrogacy is legal. Isn't it basically the same thing only with the marriage making them their "legal" children rather than a formal, written contract? Does make me wonder though why he didn't adopt? Especially now when it has become plain, to me at least, that they are not his, nor her, biological children. After all, what was the point then? I don't have a problem being wrong on this. With my own two eyes though, I don't see any resemblance to either of them.

So true what I think it was you who said earlier - how sad that here we are, debating the childrens' future, and there he remains, the superstar, just another body in the basement. Sad indeed. :crying:

IMO,
Lilismom

The thing is Lilis...it may be "questionable" to us but in the eyes of the law they are two very different things. (children by surrogacy vs in a marriage)

IMO

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:27 AM

He's dead. He ain't playing nothing...LOL Sorry, I just had to make that joke.

DR is still the other parent whether certain parties, including herself like it or not. She can have control if she choses to.

imo

I guess we will see then if Michael's Will trumps her rights as an absentee parent for all these years.

I wouldn't want to be this judge, I'll tell you that.

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:28 AM

I don't know that I have a problem so much with him using her to have children and then paying her a "divorce settlement" in exchange. Especially when surrogacy is legal. Isn't it basically the same thing only with the marriage making them their "legal" children rather than a formal, written contract? Does make me wonder though why he didn't adopt? Especially now when it has become plain, to me at least, that they are not his, nor her, biological children. After all, what was the point then? I don't have a problem being wrong on this. With my own two eyes though, I don't see any resemblance to either of them.

So true what I think it was you who said earlier - how sad that here we are, debating the childrens' future, and there he remains, the superstar, just another body in the basement. Sad indeed. :crying:

IMO,
Lilismom

Surrogacy doesn't apply here. They were married and divorced. There will be DNA testing on the children. I just heard that on TV for what that's worth. I believe Ms Rowe is the biological mother.

my opinion only of course

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:28 AM

Yes, he never adopted the kids and since he never believed anyone would contest it. I know legally he was the father. That is not what I was saying. MJ is not the biological father. imo

So are countless of other fathers.

What does it matter? He is by law, just like countless of other fathers in this country. Who is contesting that he is not the biological father? What man has come forward contesting he is the father instead and wants custody of them?:confused:
Do you have a link?

imo

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:28 AM

He's dead. He ain't playing nothing...LOL Sorry, I just had to make that joke.

DR is still the other parent whether certain parties, including herself like it or not. She can have control if she choses to.

imo

And from what I can tell she is not. She hasn't petitioned the court for custody so IMO that pretty much wraps it up

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:30 AM

The thing is Lilis...it may be "questionable" to us but in the eyes of the law they are two very different things. (children by surrogacy vs in a marriage)

IMO

right. i'm not really questioning the legality of it. they are no more, imo, biologically his than hers, but they are legally theirs through that marriage. i get that. i'm just wondering how much weight that will hold, her as the other parent, with the courts v. michael's will. i guess we will soon see.

IMO,
Lilismom

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:34 AM

right. i'm not really questioning the legality of it. they are no more, imo, biologically his than hers, but they are legally theirs through that marriage. i get that. i'm just wondering how much weight that will hold, her as the other parent, with the courts v. michael's will. i guess we will soon see.

IMO,
Lilismom

so far she hasn't petitioned for custody and IMO she won't. So I don't think she will even come into the issue. The court wouldn't leave the kids with her if she has made it clear (by not asking for them) that she doesn't want them.

In Calif the decision is based on what is best for the kids. I doubt the court would find that a Mom that doesn't want them is the best IMO

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:36 AM

Surrogacy doesn't apply here. They were married and divorced. There will be DNA testing on the children. I just heard that on TV for what that's worth. I believe Ms Rowe is the biological mother.

my opinion only of course

What show was that on? Did it come from actual people that are involved in the custody case or simply another talking bobble head or from unknown sources?

DR sure wouldn't contest that he is their father. She knows by law he is. All she is wanting is to have some type of custody rights because she is the bio mother to the two oldest children.

This is not a parental determination case. It is a custody case where the Judge will decide where MJs children will be raised and by whom.
There is no reason to seek DNA and make the children go through that. Let the Judge ask the two oldest children who their father is and he/she sure will ask them where they want to live and imo it will be with the family they have known all of their lives. Their father's family.

imo

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:36 AM

As far as I know, surrogates are psychologically screened and already have their own children. There are fees related to expenses. IMO it's hardly the same thing.

I never said it was....

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:37 AM

Her lawyer hasn't said 100% she wouldn't. Nothing wrapped up until the fat lady sings: The Judge!

imo

True...she hasn't yet. It is only my opinion that she won't

ish

07-15-2009, 11:38 AM

As far as I know, surrogates are psychologically screened and already have their own children. There are fees related to expenses. IMO it's hardly the same thing.

As usual, Jackson didn't want to go thru the hoops that "regular" people do. He was special and he got what he wanted via charm or money or a combination of both. He bought whatever he wanted his whole life, why would it be different just cause what he wanted this time was children. IMO

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 11:40 AM

I keep reading these posts and shaking my head. It no longer matters if Jackson was the bio father, he is the father as a matter of law.

Some of the posters would do so many things if they were KJ, DR, MJ or JJ. Everyone is claiming to know the truth and no one does. The only one that knew, is DEAD.

I think it is funny that people believe that Jackson sat down with checkbook and pen and wrote out his checks. Does the words business/financial manager come to mind? While he should have kept his mind into his business, apparently he didn't.

For those who are now knocking KJ. I would have loved to see how anyone would have handled the same situation as she did. Yes, it was her job to protect her children. But do we know if Katherine herself was abused? Can you imagine what it would be like back in 1958 for a black woman with 8 children? Who the hell would have helped her? If things happened today, hopefully she would be able to do things different. There are many more places to seek help. If you cannot comphrehend the racial hate that was around at that time, I would suggest that you watch a few movies or read a few history books.

I will agree that Joe Jackson and LaToya should keep their mouths closed until both autopsy reports are released. There are many that feel that a homocide charge will be filed.

JMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:41 AM

I heard it reported Ms Rowe actually loved Mr Jackson. They had a friendship for a long period before she offered to help him have the children "he deserved". They must have first met when Mr Jackson started going to Dr. Kline. I wonder what year that was?

my opinion only

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:42 AM

All i know is Debbie Rowe already admitted they never had sex and those are not his biological children. There are tons of links around here if you need more help on this topic.

Superstar that was also human, not a saint as some believe because he was a singer and a dancer. His family isn't treating him that way either. Speaks volumes to me.

imo

I don't really care about their sex life or lack thereof, honestly. They both knew what it was all for when they got into it.

You don't think his family treated him as a superstar? What was that HUGE memorial for then? Michael, the superstar. I never claimed him a saint and I'm not sure yet what I think about the "charges". In the meantime, he is dead in a basement while everyone is clammoring for a piece of him still. Pretty darn sad.

IMO,
Lilismom

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:45 AM

right. i'm not really questioning the legality of it. they are no more, imo, biologically his than hers, but they are legally theirs through that marriage. i get that. i'm just wondering how much weight that will hold, her as the other parent, with the courts v. michael's will. i guess we will soon see.

IMO,
Lilismom

Even though she is the bio mother she will not carry much weight, imo.

The courts do what is in the best interest of the children and it makes no sense to punish them and make them live with someone they don't really even know.

The Judge will look at who has been the most consistent in their lives and Paris and Prince will be asked where they want to live and who they want to take care of them. I think hands down it is going to be Katherine with maybe Grace assisting her.

As far as Blanket's surrogate she is not listed on the birth certificate for a legal reason. She is an unknown surrogate. Even MJ said he did not know who she was.

imo

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 11:48 AM

What show was that on? Did it come from actual people that are involved in the custody case or simply another talking bobble head or from unknown sources?

DR sure wouldn't contest that he is their father. She knows by law he is. All she is wanting is to have some type of custody rights because she is the bio mother to the two oldest children.

This is not a parental determination case. It is a custody case where the Judge will decide where MJs children will be raised and by whom.
There is no reason to seek DNA and make the children go through that. Let the Judge ask the two oldest children who their father is and he/she sure will ask them where they want to live and imo it will be with the family they have known all of their lives. Their father's family.

imo

It's been reported on HLN several times by the newscasters while I'm sitting here drinking my coffee.

my opinion of course

ish

07-15-2009, 11:53 AM

Couldn't agree more.

Honestly, it's no wonder he turned out that way, when looking how and who he was raised by.

I do think he loved his children as much as he could love. I don't think it was a normal & healthy love....IMO

I think Michael indeed loved his children as much as he could, but I think he craved BEING LOVED by them even more. That is why the children constantly called out to him "I love you, Daddy" whenever they saw him. I believe that is a behavior that was taught to them, not a spontaneous gesture on their part. It was something that he needed to hear. He loved being loved and adored. I'm sure his children were happy enough and well taken care of, was it a good environment for children? That I'm not so sure of.

lilismom

07-15-2009, 11:54 AM

Well if you don't care. Why do you keep asking about their arrangement? You have to look at the whole picture to understand it.

The family is clamoring for a piece of him. How about treat him with respect as a human being? Bury the guy already.

imo

I care as much as anyone else cares about people they don't know. I care what happens to the kids - which is why I wonder about her standing as a parent. Its all for nothing if she hasn't even asked for them.

Ohhhh. Ok. Thanks for the clarification Bly. I agree. Shame but maybe they really are waiting to bury all of him. :(

IMO,
Lilismom

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 11:54 AM

Really don't want this to turn into a religious debate....but doesn't a person have to actually be SORRY? I think how MJ lived his life despicable. IMO

When it all boils down to it, I don't think any of us are mind readers.:wink:

JMO

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Not according to Calif law.....

IMO

That is correct Katie. Add to that we have no idea of the gene pool that was actually preserved for the vessel IMO. Nobody knows with certainty from what I've seen. JMO:sneaky:

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 11:56 AM

I hope the court assigns a guardian ad litem for those kids. Someone neutral has to look out for them until this is settled.

my opinion

ITA Forensic!

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:00 PM

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 12:05 PM

I hope the court assigns a guardian ad litem for those kids. Someone neutral has to look out for them until this is settled.

my opinion

That is my hope too Forensic. I continue to believe the advocates in the area will be watching out for this child custody issue with the unique circumstances involved. JMOOC. :thumbup:

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 12:06 PM

When it all boils down to it, I don't think any of us are mind readers.:wink:

JMO

Exactly GB and nobody here knows what MJ may or may not have felt as he passed over. JMOOC. :smile:

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 12:07 PM

Hello Katie. Hope all is well with you.

Nice to see you here.....you are always the voice of reason :biggrin:

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:07 PM

I think Michael indeed loved his children as much as he could, but I think he craved BEING LOVED by them even more. That is why the children constantly called out to him "I love you, Daddy" whenever they saw him. I believe that is a behavior that was taught to them, not a spontaneous gesture on their part. It was something that he needed to hear. He loved being loved and adored. I'm sure his children were happy enough and well taken care of, was it a good environment for children? That I'm not so sure of.

Oh I think he loved him with all his heart. I loved how relaxed and happy they were as they ran around playing, singing, dancing and even working on a puzzle with their daddy.

He was so kind and gentle with them and it showed.

Everyone loves being loved and it must have done his heart good to see the love in his children's eyes for him. He sure had it in his when he looked at them.

I think even beyond his super stardom achievements that his children were the happiest times of his life and brought him the most enjoyment in 12 years of MJs life that he ever spent on Earth and what extraordinary children they are. Imo, he taught them humility, compassion, to be social, to be giving and to love all others and from what countless others has said who saw these children and their daddy interact.... the story is totally consistent each and every time. They all talk about that wonderful special relationship between MJ and his children. Paris just confirmed what everyone that knew them had already said and her words will never be forgotten imo nor are they her last words either.

JMO

flipflop

07-15-2009, 12:07 PM

I don't know if I have a problem with a need to be loved and a need to be told so. Did he just have these kids so that they would love him unconditionally? Maybe. Did it grow into real "fatherhood" from there? I dunno. Maybe we'll never really know. I know what I heard Paris say at the memorial. It didn't seem controlled or staged or robotic to me. So sad for her. :(

I feel like I tell my DD I love her so often that she gets sick of hearing it. I don't demand that she say it back. Maybe Michael did, maybe he didn't. Maybe they just really loved him that much.

IMO,
Lilismom

I don't have a problem at all with telling your family over and over you love them.

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 12:09 PM

Do you think surrogacy laws apply to this case? They were married and divorced.

in my opinion

Surrogacy laws don't apply to the two older children, but they may apply to the youngest child.

The oldest two were the result of artificial insemination and the law in that area is well settled, they were legally Rowe and Jackson's children.

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:10 PM

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:15 PM

This came from DR herself. I didn't make it up. You came in a few days late since all the links were posted while we were discussing it. That is why I'm helping you see the whole side.

Thought the brain samples were taken already and we'll know the end of this week what drugs were in his system? They still need his brain?

imo

Its cool. I'm done wracking my brain about it and it is a non-issue at this point anyway.

Perhaps I was sleeping thru the news. I thought I heard that that may have been the hold up with the burial.

IMO,
Lilismom

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:18 PM

I don't have a problem at all with telling your family over and over you love them.

I sure don't either, flipflop. Do a lot of it myself daily and it is wonderful to be told "I love you" especially from my hubby, children and grandchildren. I even tell my friends I love them because, I do. I feel deep love in my heart so of course I want them to know that... so I tell them each and everyday because no one knows what tomorrow may bring.

Heck I am like MJ in another way. I love to give and receive hugs and kisses too. My kids who are grown now tell me it is a wonder they have faces today cause I kissed them so much when they were growing up.:biggrin: I still kiss them and they still kiss me. Life is good.

This mean old cruel world need more love in it.........that is for sure.

imo

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:20 PM

Wonder if the surrogate for Blanket will come out of the woodwork?

:ohmy:

She probably would have by now I think. But as with everything else here lately, nothing would surprise me!

IMO,
Lilismom

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 12:20 PM

And from what I can tell she is not. She hasn't petitioned the court for custody so IMO that pretty much wraps it up

And that is an important key to Rowe's motive. If she ready cares for the welfare of these children she would go through the Court for either custody or visitation. Since she hasn't filed I must assume her motive is only financial.

IMO

bkwits

07-15-2009, 12:20 PM

snipped for relevance
There is no reason to seek DNA and make the children go through that. Let the Judge ask the two oldest children who their father is and he/she sure will ask them where they want to live and imo it will be with the family they have known all of their lives. Their father's family.

imo

What would the children "go through"? They just take a swab inside their mouths. Much like they've prob had done at their pediatricians. Now, I am not saying that they are definitely doing DNA tests. I am merely stating that it is non-invasive, painless, simple and the kids don't need to be told what it is for other than maybe a test.

IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:22 PM

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:27 PM

My husband who was forced to hear Paris because they repeated a trillion times over said "she's not really crying and that was coached".

The boys were chewing gum the entire time. Odd to be chewing gum when you're loving father is right there on stage in a coffin.

imo

My best friend and her siblings laughed so hard at their mother's services that people behind us thought they were nuts. They were trying not to laugh out loud which only makes it worse. They were laughing about the music being played by a violinist that the one sister hired. He wasn't very good. Inappropriate? Maybe. But it is what it is and they are kids don't forget. I'm sure when viewing it now, KJ and Co. probably want to snatch that gum right out of their mouths!

IMO,
Lilismom

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 12:28 PM

I agree with you and feel the Jacksons are questionable for the children now. Katherine Jackson was on ABC profiting off that interview. The Jacksons, every one of them, are dysfunctional.

in my opinion only of course

I don't think the Jacksons are the ideal or perfect choice, but there are no better options.

IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:28 PM

Surrogacy laws don't apply to the two older children, but they may apply to the youngest child.

The oldest two were the result of artificial insemination and the law in that area is well settled, they were legally Rowe and Jackson's children.

Yes, I agree and know that. However, I thought we were discussing only Ms Rowes children in regard to the custody hearing and the surrogacy does not apply. I wasn't putting Blanket in the mix.

in my opinion only

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:31 PM

Is it you? j/k :laugh:

I just find it odd no one has come forward all these yrs. Maybe there wasn't a surrogate. Purchased the child w/no legal work?

imo

Ha. No. LOL!

Or maybe, this surrogate just lived up to her end of the contract? Maybe she really doesn't know its MJ?

IMO,
Lilismom

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:31 PM

I don't think the Jacksons are the ideal or perfect choice, but there are no better options.

IMO

I don't think that's true only because we don't really know Ms Rowe. She is not selling interviews for money like the Jacksons.

in my opinion only

bkwits

07-15-2009, 12:32 PM

I worked with severely abused children for years in a few capacities....the one thing they all have in common...they all still loved their parents. Even though the vast majority were abused by their parent's....unless they were rendered incapable of loving anyone.

I am not saying MJ abused his children. what I am saying is...regardless if he was a good father, or not...he was loved by his children. Usually that's just the way it goes.

Thank you very much, I have tried to state that earlier, but you have done so much more clearly and authoritively.

I doubt that MJ physically abused his children, but IMO they were possessions that could give him unconditional love. It seems that he didn't think of their emotional needs, only his own. IMO

After all, he made sure they all 3 had his given name. Poor little Prince Michael 11, doesn't even have a name of his own he shares with his brother. What a shame. IMO

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 12:32 PM

I think what you just said, answers the question asked earlier..Why get married??..In the bonds of matrimony, the law is pretty clear..I think, however, since DR herself referre to herself as a vessel, her gift to Michael, has brought up all these questions..including who's eggs??who's sperm??..For the two oldest children..it makes no matter.

Now, Blanket is another story..however, it seems the surrogate mother was properly screened, and all the laws there semed to have had all the i's doted, and the t's crossed..That surrogate mother likely doesnt even know who they birthed for a third party..so, how could she come foreward now. Some Surrogates, may wonder??but she likely doesnt know..

LMS

Well stated Lynda. The bottom line is that the two pregnancies Debbie Rowe carried may have no biological connection to her or Michael. That said, CA law recognizes them as the parents because the children were born into the marriage IMO. :ohmy: JMO

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:33 PM

What would the children "go through"? They just take a swab inside their mouths. Much like they've prob had done at their pediatricians. Now, I am not saying that they are definitely doing DNA tests. I am merely stating that it is non-invasive, painless, simple and the kids don't need to be told what it is for other than maybe a test.

IMO

The very thought that people would be coming to them to get anything for their bodies to determine who their father was would be very traumatic and totally unnecessary. This is not a parental determination case. This is a case where the Judge is going to decide who gets custody of MJs children.

No one is contesting his fatherhood because everyone knows already he is the legally recognized father in CL and has been all of their lives and the court follows the letter of the law........not what the tabloids may think is a big story in order to see more non relevant trash to spoon feed the public's thirst to know.

imo

ish

07-15-2009, 12:35 PM

Exactly, someone neutral. The Judge could very well decide this because of certain things Joe has said. imo

I think that person should be assigned to these children for the rest of their childhoods, just to make sure that any explotation of them is kept to a minimum.

CANDYKISSES

07-15-2009, 12:35 PM

I don't think the Jacksons are the ideal or perfect choice, but there are no better options.

IMO

Agree Unperson, and simply because they generate publicity we can rest assured the watch dog groups and people like :blushing:GA will be watching out for them. JMO tho. But best of all, it would appear they will stay together legally with Katherine if this works out. JMO.

bkwits

07-15-2009, 12:36 PM

I don't think that's true only because we don't really know Ms Rowe. She is not selling interviews for money like the Jacksons.

in my opinion only

From what I've seen of her, she is not a likeable person. However, I think the insulting and demeaning posts on this board are over the top. She is not a well-educated person and not very social. She speaks without thinking.

I have not seen any evidence that she "sold" her children. I have only seen evidence that she got a divorce settlement in 99. And not a very large one considering Michael's enormous wealth and earning potential at that time.

IMO

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:36 PM

Exactly. He was drugged up most of the time. How was he teaching anyone a thing accept how to put a need in your arm? They had to have seen that of their daddy. imo

:thumbdown:

Sad. If true. But we don't know that. Maybe they had "daddy time" when he was up and fresh as a daisy when he was with them. I hope so. Whatever the case, I don't think they loved him any less for it. Whatever it was, however they lived, was what was normal for them. Now their normal is gone. And the battle begins...maybe.

IMO,
Lilismom

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 12:40 PM

I don't think that's true only because we don't really know Ms Rowe. She is not selling interviews for money like the Jacksons.

in my opinion only

As I stated above, if she seriously wanted custody, or just to be a part of the children's lives, she would have filed with the court by now. Instead she seems to be using her legal status of parent as a bargaining point.

IMHO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:40 PM

That is my hope too Forensic. I continue to believe the advocates in the area will be watching out for this child custody issue with the unique circumstances involved. JMOOC. :thumbup:

Do advocates in different areas actually watch child custody issues?

If they don't agree with some of the issues they see on TV, what do they do?

i always thought one would have to be assigned by a judge and that would only be if the case is in the courts.

my opinion only

bkwits

07-15-2009, 12:42 PM

The very thought that people would be coming to them to get anything for their bodies to determine who their father was would be very traumatic and totally unnecessary. This is not a parental determination case. This is a case where the Judge is going to decide who gets custody of MJs children.

No one is contesting his fatherhood because everyone knows already he is the legally recognized father in CL and has been all of their lives and the court follows the letter of the law........not what the tabloids may think is a big story in order to see more non relevant trash to spoon feed the public's thirst to know.

imo

That is a little over-dramatic, don't you think? I'm not advocating a DNA test. I just said it is not a big deal. Anyway, I thought the test was for Debbie to prove she is the bio mom. IMO

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 12:44 PM

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:44 PM

As I stated above, if she seriously wanted custody, or just to be a part of the children's lives, she would have filed with the court by now. Instead she seems to be using her legal status of parent as a bargaining point.

IMHO

Has she not filed yet? I didn't know that. Both parties are asking for the continences through the courts by their attorneys.

in my opinion only

Not Telling

07-15-2009, 12:45 PM

This was shocking to me... I had no idea it was so bad...

The video shows two takes - in the first the explosion goes off as planned, after Jackson is out of the way. In the sixth the explosion goes off too early, while Jackson is standing right there.

Jackson's head is engulfed in flames, which he at first does not realize as he continues performing. Handlers then rush out to put out the flames.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/15/michael-jacksons-head-on_n_233449.html

lilismom

07-15-2009, 12:47 PM

We know a lot. His drug use since at least 1993 took on a whole new level. Daddy time? When? He was knocked out every day. The nanny was their true guardian..give them to her. MJ was a sorry excuse as a parent and so is DR.

imo

I said I hope so and maybe. MJ chose KJ or Diana Ross. Why Diana and not Grace if outside the family I have no idea. What was his state of mind in 2002 when he signed the Will? Was Grace still in place at that point?

IMO,
Lilismom

ish

07-15-2009, 12:47 PM

Oh I think he loved him with all his heart. I loved how relaxed and happy they were as they ran around playing, singing, dancing and even working on a puzzle with their daddy.

He was so kind and gentle with them and it showed.

Everyone loves being loved and it must have done his heart good to see the love in his children's eyes for him. He sure had it in his when he looked at them.

I think even beyond his super stardom achievements that his children were the happiest times of his life and brought him the most enjoyment in 12 years of MJs life that he ever spent on Earth and what extraordinary children they are. Imo, he taught them humility, compassion, to be social, to be giving and to love all others and from what countless others has said who saw these children and their daddy interact.... the story is totally consistent each and every time. They all talk about that wonderful special relationship between MJ and his children. Paris just confirmed what everyone that knew them had already said and her words will never be forgotten imo nor are they her last words either.

JMO

And everyone that saw Joan Crawford with her kids said she adored them. We've learned differently since. "No wire hangers EVER!!!" LOL
Not to suggest that MJ was physically abusive. We only saw bits and pieces of what life with MJ was like. Even now we are getting vastly different eyewitness accounts of just what shape both physically and mentally MJ was in, until the autopsy report is released we can't know which are correct. But as far as what life was like as MJ children go, despite Paris's tearful declaration, none of us will know what went on behind closed doors. Perhaps those 3 will share some of it when they are older, perhaps not. My guess is that all three may offer up drastically different scenarios.

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:48 PM

I can't imagine who would want a DNA test. Certainly not the Jackson family.

I would think, if this goes before the courts, the court will order a DNA test.

Maybe the Jacksons want to make sure Ms Rowe is the biological mother.

in my own opinion of course

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 12:50 PM

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:51 PM

Exactly. He was drugged up most of the time. They had to have seen that of their daddy. imo

:thumbdown:

How do you know that?

Where you there?

How do you know if he didn't stay in his bedroom suite away from the children during those times? It certainly wasn't like they were packed together like sardines.

Grace had been with the children since they were born and you think she just let the children see MJ at the times he binged? Preposterous, imo.:rolleyes:

imo

ish

07-15-2009, 12:54 PM

My mother said the exact same thing. She even made me watch it at least 3 times to show me that their wasn't even a tear in her eye. She said the kids looked coached singing ...

after watching it...I had to agree.

The gum thing? I heard..MJ only gave candy to other people's children, never his own. He didn't allow them to have candy.

If not directly coached, by bringing them up on stage I think she got caught up in the moment and impulsively wanted to speak. If I noticed correctly, she seemed put off by all the hands grabbing at her and stroking her hair.

And Bly, those two boys looked like they had a whole pack of gum each stuffed in their mouths. If MJ didn't allow it maybe they were making up for lost time. :laugh:

Not Telling

07-15-2009, 12:55 PM

Wow! That is terrible!

It sure was.... OUCH!

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 12:56 PM

He was wacked out. Out cold!! No lights on and his heart stopped. Why are certain posters ignoring the fact he was a major drug addict? Keeping the blinders on isn't very smart. Why post here if you can't handle the truth about just how MJ really was? imo

:rolleyes: I don't think it is a matter of "keeping the blinders on", Music Fan... We post here to share our opinions.. Actually, I don't 100% KNOW how YOU really are.. :wink: But, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt... Unless we are inside someone's heart. it is virtually impossible to know how someone really is... And if they have lost their life... by what ever means, that gives me even more incentive to recognize their goodness as opposed to their weaknesses and mistakes..

Poochie

KatieLady

07-15-2009, 12:56 PM

It sure was.... OUCH!

I had no idea that it was so bad. And....OUCH is right! Must have really hurt!!

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 12:57 PM

I would think, if this goes before the courts, the court will order a DNA test.

Maybe the Jacksons want to make sure Ms Rowe is the biological mother.

in my own opinion of course

Hopefully this will be settled out of court as that is the best thing for the children who are they ones who matters the most.

I do not think the Jacksons will contest that DR is the mom of Paris and Prince. They knew that MJ recognized her as the bio mom.

imo

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 12:58 PM

lilismom

07-15-2009, 01:00 PM

Grace has been with him since way before the kids even came into the picture. ....she was only very recently dismissed by MJ over his drug usage.

Ok thanks. So it seems that way back when he signed the Will that things were ok with Grace. She was fit to care for the children day in and day out. The mother figure. Why then choose Diana who then was already what 59 years old? I understand his mother but if your second choice, out of all of your siblings, is outside the family, why not Grace? Back then? Can't be because she's not related to them. Can't be a money issue. Can't be because she wasn't fit. Can't be because they didn't love her and she them. Why?

Was Michael thinking clearly or advised properly when he signed this Will with regards to the children? I'm sure the Jacksons are thanking their lucky stars that their mother is still alive. Imagine the fireworks if these kids were shipped off to Diana Ross?

IMO,
Lilismom

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:04 PM

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 01:04 PM

Well we now he was a HARDCORE DRUG ADDICT....just how much time do you believe he spent with his children straight as an arrow?

I don't know nor do I pretend to know. All I know from what I have read in the recent months MJ was very much together and very busy going about his work so I just don't see a stoned out druggie to be honest. And sober fathers and mothers can come home everyday and have very little interaction with their children. Imo, when MJ did interact it was each a wonderful memory. That is obvious by Paris's remarks.

Millions of people are addicted to prescription drugs and are drug addicts in the country sadly and a lot of them do function in their everyday lives. Yes, they will binge but that doesn't mean they do it non stop. I am going to wait until the autopsy report comes back. So far, other than what was said to be administered by Dr. Murray, MJ had two half dissolved pills in his stomach at the time of death.

imo

Not Telling

07-15-2009, 01:05 PM

I had no idea that it was so bad. And....OUCH is right! Must have really hurt!!

I guess I always thought it couldn't have been that bad and the reports were probably exaggerated so I was pretty shocked while watching it.. I just wanted to reach through the monitor and put the fire out myself! He instantly lost a lot of hair that probably never grew back...

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 01:10 PM

None of us were there. It just seems to me, with all the evidence coming out, he was very addicted for a very long time.

It would be improbable to believe the children never saw anything, don't you think?

my opinion only

I think of all people MJ told Grace to keep the children away when he binged. He would never want his kids to see him that way and I think Grace made darn sure it didn't happen.

He certainly had enough square footage in his homes to do so and I imagine she told them that their daddy was sleeping or not feeling well.

imo

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 01:15 PM

Has she not filed yet? I didn't know that. Both parties are asking for the continences through the courts by their attorneys.

in my opinion only

She hasn't filed, but the Judge wants her to attend the custody hearing. That's how she got a voice regarding the schedule.

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 01:15 PM

It's no longer 1958.

It's not ??

I think that is what I said. Services that are available today did not exist back in 1958. I doubt very much that anyone could have done better than what Katherine Jackson did in 1958. No one can say what they would have done without being in her shoes at that time.

My hope would be that she would keep her hubby away from these children.

ish

07-15-2009, 01:15 PM

How do you know that?

Where you there?

How do you know if he didn't stay in his bedroom suite away from the children during those times? It certainly wasn't like they were packed together like sardines.

Grace had been with the children since they were born and you think she just let the children see MJ at the times he binged? Preposterous, imo.:rolleyes:

imo

He got rid of Grace fast enough when she started complaining about/questioning his drug use. That tells me he thought little of the impact it would have on his kids I'm sure her concerns were as much for his own health as they were for the children being subjected to it. It's a lot harder to hide your dirty little drug habit from a 12 and an 11 yr old than it is to keep it from a much younger one. I'm betting Paris and Prince knew full well what it meant when "Daddy is resting/sleeping/not feeling well" was the story they got from the hired help. Talk to children of drug addicts and alcoholics they'll tell you none of those stories fooled them.
And how do you know he didn''t have those kids in his room, he loved sleeping with children "it's the most natural thing" "it's all love" "nothing wrong with it" I believe are quotes from MJ himself in the documentary. Or maybe he only liked to sleep with little boys he wasn't related to..... :ohmy:

ish

07-15-2009, 01:16 PM

It's not ??

I think that is what I said. Services that are available today did not exist back in 1958. I doubt very much that anyone could have done better than what Katherine Jackson did in 1958. No one can say what they would have done without being in her shoes at that time.

My hope would be that she would keep her hubby away from these children.

My bolding.

My fear is that she won't.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:18 PM

Works both ways. How would posters know he is going to some imaginary thrown in the sky? He was out cold by his own doing. He wanted to be knocked out.

I'm sticking with the facts. The facts are he was a major drug user and has been doctor shopping for yrs. He took his drug use to a much high level than a crack addict would ever dream of doing. Knowing this and he did this around his children will never give him a pass in my eyes. There is no benefit of the doubt. How? Only if you keep the blinders on because he was famous. IMO His "fame" is a non issue to me, Music...I agree that "He wanted to be knocked out".. I just don't believe he wanted to be "Dead"... I do believe he was addicted to prescription drugs.. Every addiction starts with that first drink. that first pill, or that first cigarette... Having fame and money is not in your favor.. As my dear Sister once said... (who has suffered life altering loss and devastation over the years)... "If I could afford it, I would have been an alcoholic a long time ago"..

Poochie

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 01:18 PM

She hasn't filed, but the Judge wants her to attend the custody hearing. That's how she got a voice regarding the schedule.

So is it that a biological parent doesn't have to file? She does have a lawyer to advise her.

in my opinion only of course

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 01:22 PM

I would think, if this goes before the courts, the court will order a DNA test.

Maybe the Jacksons want to make sure Ms Rowe is the biological mother.

in my own opinion of course

They can't undermine Rowe's parental claim without seriously undermining Michael's parental claim. They have to recognize the marriage as grounds for both Rowe’s and Michael’s parental claims.

cutiepatootie61

07-15-2009, 01:22 PM

Good day all
I just wanted to say that I appreciate the substantial information and links that many of you are so dedicated to bring here. For someone like me who just pops in every now and then when I get a chance to catch the latest. On a side note it is good to see that most of the posters are able to accept one another’s opinion and comment without the bias nonsense. I would hate to see that board get closed due to the mockery and needless ridiculing of each other’s rightfully deserved opinion. Let’s try to keep it respectful regardless of what we may or may not believe in.

Thanks

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 01:23 PM

And everyone that saw Joan Crawford with her kids said she adored them. We've learned differently since. "No wire hangers EVER!!!" LOL
Not to suggest that MJ was physically abusive. We only saw bits and pieces of what life with MJ was like. Even now we are getting vastly different eyewitness accounts of just what shape both physically and mentally MJ was in, until the autopsy report is released we can't know which are correct. But as far as what life was like as MJ children go, despite Paris's tearful declaration, none of us will know what went on behind closed doors. Perhaps those 3 will share some of it when they are older, perhaps not. My guess is that all three may offer up drastically different scenarios.

:lol::lol: I truly think this entire site would have to shutdown if some couldn't use the defense attorney's favorite spin......."behind closed doors" Yep sure do love to throw out them negatives knowing a negative cant be proven.:lol:

But I have no doubt that they will speak in the future and keep their father's legacy alive. Not only that he was the great entertainer in the world but the greatest father to them as well.

The truth has already begun to rise to its feet........spunky Paris has spoken and people across the world listened and still talk about her heartfelt words today. In fact many articles list it as the high point of the memorial.

imo

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 01:24 PM

His "fame" is a non issue to me, Music...I agree that "He wanted to be knocked out".. I just don't believe he wanted to be "Dead"... I do believe he was addicted to prescription drugs.. Every addiction starts with that first drink. that first pill, or that first cigarette... Having fame and money is not in your favor.. As my dear Sister once said... (who has suffered life altering loss and devastation over the years)... "If I could afford it, I would have been an alcoholic a long time ago"..

Poochie

I'm just glad smoking is still legal. If it weren't, I'd have to live underground in a cave. Affording it is becoming an issue now though.

Of course doing anything illegal to get any pills never entered my mind. There is a difference between a legal addiction and an illegal one under the law.

in my opinion only

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 01:26 PM

So is it that a biological parent doesn't have to file? She does have a lawyer to advise her.

in my opinion only of course

Even a biological parent would have to file if that parent didn't have physical or legal custody.

Rowe was a party to an earlier action regarding the children and she is the legal mother, that is why the Judge pulled her into this action.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:31 PM

I just glad smoking is still legal. If it weren't, I'd have to live underground in a cave. Affording it is becoming an issue now though.

Of course doing anything illegal to get any pills never entered my mind. There is a difference between a legal addiction and an illegal one under the law.

in my opinion only And I would be right there in that "cave" with you, retiredcop..!! LOL But, ya know, it IS an "addiction"... Which is exactly why I am hesitant to judge another human being.... We all gots something.. As far as "a difference between a legal addiction and an illegal one under the LAW"... Well, that takes it right to the door of Michael's Dr.'s, does it not..?? He didn't write different names on those prescriptions himself, as far as I know... :wink:

Poochie

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:33 PM

I wasn't referring to you if that is what you thought. We have one who has made up every excuse in the book for her Saint MJ and has personally attacked posters who report the facts.

MJ knew he would die. He told his sister LaToya and he told Lisa Marie Preslie, she put that on her blog.

You'd have to be a real idiot not to know you would die doing that drug. Was MJ an idiot? He was warned. He didn't care.

imo Oh I know you weren't referring to me, Music... :wink: But thanks anyway for the respectful reply... I appreciate it..

Poochie

GentleBreeze

07-15-2009, 01:34 PM

She also believes it is ok for a grown man to sleep with children too. Now denying the kids saw him. Never saw all the track marks either. Puleeze, common sense please take over!

For the amount of time MJ has been addicted to drugs it would be impossible to have kept that hidden from his kids who barely left the home.

Only if it is saint MJ who was a Muslim. imo

:rolleyes:

OK I have tried my best to ignore your constant immature bs and lies but enough is enough.

:no:Either you put up the post of mine where I said it is ok for children to sleep with grown men unrleated to them or I am reporting you to Coldwater. You constantly cannot say one word without interjecting personal attacks into your post. You refuse to discuss just the case and leave the other posters, who has a differing opinion from yours, to hell alone.

I will be waiting for that post that I supposedly wrote.:cursing:

I will not wait long.

imo

bkwits

07-15-2009, 01:35 PM

I think of all people MJ told Grace to keep the children away when he binged. He would never want his kids to see him that way and I think Grace made darn sure it didn't happen.

He certainly had enough square footage in his homes to do so and I imagine she told them that their daddy was sleeping or not feeling well.

imo

Well, since you are truly conjecturing, I will do so as well.

I don't think MJ put his children first so I doubt that he shielded them, even if he could. Also, they traveled extensively and were sometimes in small quarters, according to Grace and someone else (can't remember whether it was Jermaine or who). I doubt that the children had not seen him full of drugs. IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 01:39 PM

Even a biological parent would have to file if that parent didn't have physical or legal custody.

Rowe was a party to an earlier action regarding the children and she is the legal mother, that is why the Judge pulled her into this action.

"She was pulled into this action" so why ridicule her for not filing? Perhaps she wouldn't have filed at all. I do respect her determination in keeping those children away from Joe Jackson. After hearing Katherine Jackson on ABC last night it sounds to me like she is still in love with her husband and seeing him on a regular basis.

I'm beginning to believe that is the sticking point in the negotiations and not money as everyone is suggesting. Ms Rowe wants the Jacksons to honor her agreement with Mr Jackson in regard to the money aspect. I can't blame her for that.

in my opinion only of course

bkwits

07-15-2009, 01:44 PM

I'm just glad smoking is still legal. If it weren't, I'd have to live underground in a cave. Affording it is becoming an issue now though.

Of course doing anything illegal to get any pills never entered my mind. There is a difference between a legal addiction and an illegal one under the law.

in my opinion only

LOL. My addiction is coffee. I am drinking a cup right now. I know I shouldn't drink it this late in the day. Starbucks gets a lot of my money. I love the white chocolate mocha.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:46 PM

"She was pulled into this action" so why ridicule her for not filing? Perhaps she wouldn't have filed at all. I do respect her determination in keeping those children away from Joe Jackson. After hearing Katherine Jackson on ABC last night it sounds to me like she is still in love with her husband and seeing him on a regular basis.

I'm beginning to believe that is the sticking point in the negotiations and not money as everyone is suggesting. Ms Rowe wants the Jacksons to honor her agreement with Mr Jackson in regard to the money aspect. I can't blame her for that.

in my opinion only of course Just to add, I would say that DR knew him much better than we did... IMO, she is fully aware of the "relationship" that Michael had with his Father growing up.. most likely in a lot more depth than we are privy to... and I don't believe it is pretty... I agree about KJ.. She does still seem to be under the power of her husband... Which is really bothersome to me.. IMO

Poochie

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 01:49 PM

LOL. My addiction is coffee. I am drinking a cup right now. I know I shouldn't drink it this late in the day. Starbucks gets a lot of my money. I love the white chocolate mocha.

LOL I was trying to hide that addition. I'm still drinking coffee as well even though my trips to the bathroom are increasing. Shortly I fear I will have to have my computer in there as well.:laugh:

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 01:55 PM

LOL. My addiction is coffee. I am drinking a cup right now. I know I shouldn't drink it this late in the day. Starbucks gets a lot of my money. I love the white chocolate mocha. LOL... Like I said bkwits... We all gots something.. Just made a fresh pot myself... :wink: Back to the case at hand.. Michael Jackson's death was sure to bring out many different opinions.. I once heard it said.."If you want to hear all of the dirt on a person.. no matter how they lived their life, just wait until they're dead"..!! How true..

Poochie

bkwits

07-15-2009, 01:55 PM

My bolding.

My fear is that she won't.

How can she if she is married to him? They share ownership of a home, don't they. It is my opinion that once the dust is settled, Joe J will be a part of the childrens' lives. Grrrr.

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 01:56 PM

"She was pulled into this action" so why ridicule her for not filing? Perhaps she wouldn't have filed at all. I do respect her determination in keeping those children away from Joe Jackson. After hearing Katherine Jackson on ABC last night it sounds to me like she is still in love with her husband and seeing him on a regular basis.

I'm beginning to believe that is the sticking point in the negotiations and not money as everyone is suggesting. Ms Rowe wants the Jacksons to honor her agreement with Mr Jackson in regard to the money aspect. I can't blame her for that.

in my opinion only of course

I'm not ridiculing Rowe, I'm saying her lack of filing for custody indicates she doesn't want custody. Many people don't want to be a parent and I respect that decision. Janet Jackson has publicly made the same choice.

And I don't blame her for trying to get any money still owed her from the divorce agreement. I think linking the money and the children is a bit crass.

flipflop

07-15-2009, 02:08 PM

I am not sure if this particular link was posted or not..so forgive me if it is a repeat..I find it courious, that if this is blanket in the pic..why his hair looks so difference??or is this kid one of their cousins?

Interesting they are going to Jehovah Witness school..and it's the first time i have seen Paris wearing glasses...

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/jackos-kids-let-us-pray/

LMS

I saw that picture. I don't think it is Blanket though. He looks around the same age as Paris.

ETA...I just looked at it again. I don't know. Maybe it is Blanket but you are right, he looks a lot different if it is.

Intermeist

07-15-2009, 02:12 PM

It is my opinion that whether or not Michael was the biological father of DR's children doesn't matter AT ALL, but when it comes to a DNA test, it would be done to establish DR as the biological mother. (Could be asked for by DR, KJ or the court). I think the reason it matters is because if it is established DR is the biological mother, it gives her more standing in a custody case than just being the legal mother alone. I'm not a lawyer, so I have to say I could be totally wrong, but that is my thinking.

who_is_it

07-15-2009, 02:12 PM

Pepsi video finally released: Michael in flames:

"Video from the 1984 Pepsi shoot where Michael Jackson's hair caught fire ... finally released.

The video, obtained by US Magazine, shows exactly what went down when a pyrotechnic mishap ended in Michael's scalp being scorched.

After the accident, Jackson became addicted to painkillers."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-pepsi-explosion-video/

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 02:12 PM

No dirt on me. I'm clean as a whistle, aren't you? j/k

A lot of what we know about Mj was while he was alive. I put his musical talent aside like he did a long time ago. imo Well of course I am... :wink: Kinda have to agree on the "putting his musical talent aside"... Although, I have had some up close and personal experience (not myself, but loved ones) with "addiction".. IMO, no amount of love, devotion to family, children, life itself... can overcome that desire for the drug once it has taken you.. From my experience, of course.. A very sad existence.. IMO

Poochie

flipflop

07-15-2009, 02:16 PM

ScoobyDoo

07-15-2009, 02:17 PM

We know a lot. His drug use since at least 1993 took on a whole new level. Daddy time? When? He was knocked out every day. The nanny was their true guardian..give them to her. MJ was a sorry excuse as a parent and so is DR.

imo

So all these parents within our own neighborhoods, who have a prescription drug problem, are also sorry excuses as parents? Do you believe they should be in forster care or something?

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 02:23 PM

So all these parents within our own neighborhoods, who have a prescription drug problem, are also sorry excuses as parents? Do you believe they should be in forster care or something?

I don't know about Music Fan, but I do, especially if they are as addicted as Mr Jackson. It would depend on the degree of their addiction and if they are willing to stop.

in my own opinion only of course

who_is_it

07-15-2009, 02:26 PM

Wasn't that awful? I could see a burnt bald spot on the top of his head. :sad:

Yes, at the end of the video one could see it. Horrific!!!

ish

07-15-2009, 02:27 PM

How can she if she is married to him? They share ownership of a home, don't they. It is my opinion that once the dust is settled, Joe J will be a part of the childrens' lives. Grrrr.

Joe will make sure of it. Too many dollars to be made for him not to be a part of it.

Unperson1984

07-15-2009, 02:28 PM

So all these parents within our own neighborhoods, who have a prescription drug problem, are also sorry excuses as parents? Do you believe they should be in forster care or something?

If their addiction impairs their judgement, level of consciousness or decision making ability...yes.

ScoobyDoo

07-15-2009, 02:29 PM

I don't know about Music Fan, but I do, especially if they are as addicted as Mr Jackson. It would depend on the degree of their addiction and if they are willing to stop.

in my own opinion only of course

And of course you wouldn't be willing to accept a television diagnosis to decide if a neighbor has an addiction or to what extent, would you?

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 02:31 PM

Yes, at the end of the video one could see it. Horrific!!!

It is horrible. It's really too bad he wasn't strong enough to get off of his addiction after he healed.

in my opinion only

ScoobyDoo

07-15-2009, 02:34 PM

If their addiction impairs their judgement, level of consciousness or decision making ability...yes.

If you include alcohol in the mix, there would not be too many children living at home, but rather foster care. Hopefully the foster care system provides 100 percent guaranteed sober forster parents.

Brattnt

07-15-2009, 02:35 PM

LAPD Treating Jackson Death as Homicide

Multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson's death as a homicide, and they are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray.

Law enforcement sources tell us the evidence points to the anesthesia Propofol as the primary cause of Jackson's death. As we first reported, vials of Propofol were found in Jackson's home after he died.

Law enforcement sources say there is already "plenty of powerful evidence" linking Dr. Murray as the person who administered the drug to Jackson. The evidence includes various items found in Jackson's house, including the Propofol, an IV stand and oxygen tank.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/lapd-treating-jackson-death-a-homicide/

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 02:36 PM

And of course you wouldn't be willing to accept a television diagnosis to decide if a neighbor has an addiction or to what extent, would you?

If I had been Mr Jackson's neighbor, I believe I would have.

in my opinion only of course

Scampi

07-15-2009, 02:36 PM

OK I have tried my best to ignore your constant immature bs and lies but enough is enough.

:no:Either you put up the post of mine where I said it is ok for children to sleep with grown men unrleated to them or I am reporting you to Coldwater. You constantly cannot say one word without interjecting personal attacks into your post. You refuse to discuss just the case and leave the other posters, who has a differing opinion from yours, to hell alone.

I will be waiting for that post that I supposedly wrote.:cursing:

I will not wait long.

imo

Good for you GB, I agree with you, this person is very disruptive to this board, imo.

BTW, I am hearing from certain other boards that LE has declared Michael's death a homicide, tho I have not been able to get a link for us yet.

If this is true, it takes this discussion in an entirely different direction.

:seeya:

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 02:38 PM

Wasn't he in rehab at one time?

Yes, I believe he was, but he still remained an addict. A shame. A musical genius who's light went out because of it.

my opinion only

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 02:42 PM

bkwits

07-15-2009, 02:43 PM

I am not sure if this particular link was posted or not..so forgive me if it is a repeat..I find it curious, that if this is blanket in the pic..why his hair looks so difference??or is this kid one of their cousins?

Interesting they are going to Jehovah Witness school..and it's the first time i have seen Paris wearing glasses...

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/jackos-kids-let-us-pray/

LMS

Maybe it is Vacation Bible School. My church has it in two weeks.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 02:54 PM

You hit the nail right on the head. That is why I don't believe for one second those kids were not neglected and certainly were not neglected. imo LOL... Well, I opened the door, as they say... Actually, Music... my intention in my post was to try and explain MY feelings on the "anger" that some of us feel at MJ (myself included) re the fact that his 3 innocent children are now orphans.. We want to blame him for the addiction.. We want to blame him for not stopping the addiction... It's not that easy.. (for some, impossible).. Not excusing him at all.. But, I don't believe for a moment that those children were neglected.. Robbed of valuable time with their Father in a non-drugged state..?? Perhaps.. But it is my opinion that MJ gave them all the love and care that he possibly could while struggling with his personal demons..

Poochie

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 02:56 PM

If this is true, I hope it helps to force Florida to do the same in the Anna Nicole case.

Sorry, off topic and I do apologize.

in my own opinion of course

There is a difference between the two cases as far as any homicide.

I have to ask you, what happens IF the tox reports shows that he was not showing any addiction to all these drugs people are claiming he is?

I remember when Smith died, I was surprised her levels were within the range of normal. But let us not discuss that on going saga.

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 03:02 PM

I just did a google search and found nothing listing MJ entering a rehab. If you have a link I would like to see it please.

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 03:14 PM

I have to respectfully disagree there Firehead...My reasoning for this is because ANS did have high readings of some drugs..thus the final COD.."Accidental Overdose" key word Overdose..and since Dr. Perper decided to take the statements of the enabling people as gospel..then he used the term "Accidental"..Course we know now what is going on..Charges have been laid against those very Enablers..

Now, as to MJ, I can almost guarantee you, they indeed find either a drug ( that should not have been there) or drugs in his tissues the lend to a conclusion that there was something other than natural occurances that went on..and to follow..Dr. Murray was at the scene, and MJ had just visited Dr. Klein within days of MJ's death..

I too await the toxicology results, however it is my insticts here that tend to make me think...Homicide in some form will be fund..

LMS
'
She had a high reading of one drug, the CH. Something she ingested. It is a far cry from an IV line being inserted and a drug dripping.

About MJ, oh they should find the one drug but what happens if all the rest is a standard level for someone being on pain meds? Will the blood work show an addiction as everyone is suggesting?

reborn

07-15-2009, 03:15 PM

Maybe it is Vacation Bible School. My church has it in two weeks.

Maybe the Jackson's worship this faith. For what its worth I was in the 5th grade (public school)and didn't know my times tables. There was a JW school in town that took non JW faith students for a fee. My parents enrolled me. Within 6 weeks I knew my times tables. I can't say enough about how wonderful their schools are. I stayed there till high school. They didn't offer high school and to attend one I would have had to stay away from home. I was tested and skipped 9 th grade. Wonderful schools.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 03:30 PM

I would have too. Had I been on of his many employees I would have annonymously for the sake of the children. imo Now YOU have hit the "nail on the head", Music...!! Thank you.. Where WERE his many employees.. and friends.. Doctors.. Pharmacies.. Family..?? Had they stepped forward, (even annonymously) for the sake of the children, as you say... perhaps Michael would be alive today.. No..?? They are all speaking out now.. all over the TV and Tabloids.. I'm thinking they were more interested in MJ's money and generosity than they were in his and the children's well being.... IMO

Poochie

reborn

07-15-2009, 03:31 PM

MJ converted to the Nation of Islam aka Muslim religion. Would he send his children to such school? I heard they weren't schooled outside the house at all.

imo

Well as I stated it wasn't my faith and still isn't but the schools are wonderful. Maybe he wanted a good education for his children. You must have heard wrong as we see a photo of them going to this school.

FallenAngel♥

07-15-2009, 03:34 PM

Wasn't he in rehab at one time?

several times......but it looks like he was never over his addiction :(

bkwits

07-15-2009, 03:38 PM

Maybe the Jackson's worship this faith. For what its worth I was in the 5th grade (public school)and didn't know my times tables. There was a JW school in town that took non JW faith students for a fee. My parents enrolled me. Within 6 weeks I knew my times tables. I can't say enough about how wonderful their schools are. I stayed there till high school. They didn't offer high school and to attend one I would have had to stay away from home. I was tested and skipped 9 th grade. Wonderful schools.

Thank, that is very interesting about the JW schools. I did not even realize they had their own schools. :blushing:

MJ and his siblings were brought up in the JW faith. It is my understanding that Katherine is still a devoted JW.

IMO

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 03:47 PM

I respect your opinion. I just can't see how he didn't neglect his fatherly duties based on his over the top drug use for years. He wasn't there like he should have been. He had a nanny take over. You know what I mean? imo Thank you.. I have always tried to respect all opinions on here.. Even if they differ from mine.. and yes.. I do know what you mean.. Of course he somewhat "neglected" his Fatherly duties at times.. in a sense.. due to his drug addiction.. He would have had to.. However, with that said, IMO he was very, very selective with whom he entrusted the care of his children to.. (Unlike many parents we hear about in the News everyday, sadly enough)..

Poochie

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 03:48 PM

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 03:48 PM

There is a difference between the two cases as far as any homicide.

I have to ask you, what happens IF the tox reports shows that he was not showing any addiction to all these drugs people are claiming he is?

I remember when Smith died, I was surprised her levels were within the range of normal. But let us not discuss that on going saga.

They are not looking for addiction. They are only looking at why he died and if it was accidental or criminal.

in my opinion only

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 03:52 PM

They are not looking for addiction. They are only looking at why he died and if it was accidental or criminal.

in my opinion only

They are looking at everything in his blood, brain and liver. Long time use will show up. And I know they are looking for cause of death. What I am asking the are rumors that he was on pain medicines. What will you believe if all levels of this pain medicine is within the relm of normal. Wouldn't he abuse his pain meds?

reborn

07-15-2009, 03:53 PM

Me thinks you did not get my point at all..I was referring to the element of possible homicide..and the fact it was a drug which caused the death (both cases)..The mode of introducing that drug is different..and is really irrelevant when one considers how THAT drug got administered..by mouth or IV or Injection..is really moot (as depends if they gave themselves or had it given) when it comes to who is culpible for "Criminally Negligent Homicide" accusations..

LMS

I think in reading your posts you have never dealt with a person with an addiction. I lost two people in my family one 20 years old and one older from drug abuse. These weren't rich people that couldn't obtain drugs like MJ or ANS . These were just ordinary people. One was a fireman. One a young mother. If someone has an addiction they will get the drugs. Some way some how. How many kids do you think as we type here are selling their bodies on the streets for a fix. I don't believe the label enabler should be put on people that are close to these people. We have no way of knowing how hard these people tried to get the person drug free. A person will get drug free when that person admits to themselves they have a problem and not one minute before. For all we know MJ gave himself the IV. We do know ANS swallowed the drug that killed her. I don't believe for one second if they hadn't gotten the drug from the Drs they wouldn't have gotten it somewhere else. I think these Dr's are trying to control these wealthy people but alas they failed. JB, RP,MM, The list could go on and on . These are famous people . How many Jane and John Does died today from a drug over dose we will never hear of. Until something is done about the drugs in this country this problem will continue. Not just for the rich but for the middle class and the poor.

VC2

07-15-2009, 03:54 PM

LOL Sure, he was forced.

She was very emotional and she said this from the bottom of her heart. If you must put this little girl down and her heartfelt grief from losing the daddy she absolutely adored then I just don't know what to say except I am appalled by your coldness. Why you have such a need to crush this little girl in the ground in her darkest hour leaves me horrified.

imo

as am I. this is appalling, to denigrate a childs grief, including comments about the boys chewing gum.

IMO
sort of o/t but there is a little known fact about gum chewing, it helps stop tears. If you chew gum while chopping an onion it really helps.

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 03:55 PM

I have to respectfully disagree there Firehead...My reasoning for this is because ANS did have high readings of some drugs..thus the final COD.."Accidental Overdose" key word Overdose..and since Dr. Perper decided to take the statements of the enabling people as gospel..then he used the term "Accidental"..Course we know now what is going on..Charges have been laid against those very Enablers..

Now, as to MJ, I can almost guarantee you, they indeed find either a drug ( that should not have been there) or drugs in his tissues the lend to a conclusion that there was something other than natural occurances that went on..and to follow..Dr. Murray was at the scene, and MJ had just visited Dr. Klein within days of MJ's death..

I too await the toxicology results, however it is my insticts here that tend to make me think...Homicide in some form will be fund..

LMS

The problem in the ANS case was all the drugs found in her made a lethal mix. None of those drugs found in her should have been there since those prescriptions were all in Sterns name. The case has been re-opened in Florida where the death occurred.

Enough of being off topic. Again I apologize.

in my humble opinion only

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 03:58 PM

Did they say who their sources are? I've been extremely disappointed in mainstream lately as they have been repeating what has been reported in tabloids; even some that have since been debunked. JMHO

No, it was blurbs the newscasters throw out when the little summaries are being done.

in my opinion only

VC2

07-15-2009, 04:04 PM

Glad to hear that :) I have been suffering from insomnia lately but refuse to take anything for it. My Dr had prescribed ambien but too many side effects and I just won't take the chance. I do take melantonin but it does absolutely nothing so will just have to deal with it. LOL

athena.. best insomnia cure if you are not going out to work. If you generally fall asleep at 3 am for example, then the next night force yourself to stay up one hour later before you go to bed. Do this every night around the clock until you get into a normal sleep time.

It works very well. You can do it backwards for ppl who have to work but only half hour increments.

My GP taught me it years ago and it did work for me. Also neat to see what is on the tv at all the weird hours, or having lunch at midnight lol

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 04:07 PM

They are looking at everything in his blood, brain and liver. Long time use will show up. And I know they are looking for cause of death. What I am asking the are rumors that he was on pain medicines. What will you believe if all levels of this pain medicine is within the relm of normal. Wouldn't he abuse his pain meds? Of course he would "abuse his pain meds", Firehead... IMO.. It's part of the addiction.. and pretty normal for a lot of people.. i believe your body builds up an immunity to medication once you have taken it for awhile.. which goes back to that old saying.. "If one pill is good, 2 must be even better".. and as time goes by, that "one pill" just doesn't work that good anymore.. Know what I mean..?? He may be responsible for his addiction, but, IMO it is starting to look like SOMEONE ELSE is responsible (at least partially) for his death...

Poochie

ish

07-15-2009, 04:08 PM

Mj could have afforded the best help in the world. He chose not to as we are well aware.

I'm still blown away how he was not reported to the authorities? Over $100,000 pharmacy bill in two months is not a red flag? How?

imo

My bolding.

Michael got the care he wanted. He didn't want the best he wanted what he thought was the best for him. When he was told by friends and experts that he was making a mistake and endangering himself he pooh-poohed them and went about getting what he wanted.

vonna

07-15-2009, 04:08 PM

I think you're giving far more credit than he deserves.

If he thought for a second there was anything wrong with his drug addiction, if he even considered the risks of what he was doing...( it's not like he wasn't warned REPEATEDLY) he wouldn't have subjected his children to the possibility of his demise. He would have sought treatment and not dismissed the primary caregiver, Grace. IMO

MJ's love for his children was a selfish one. IMO

He was totally self-absorbed and really into self gratification. He loved his children but he loved himself more.

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 04:12 PM

lunchlady

07-15-2009, 04:12 PM

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 04:13 PM

This morning on Good Morning America it was reported that the tox results which were thought to be announced by Friday or early next week have been delayed another two weeks. I can't find anything on it -- has anyone else heard this? thanks for the info, Athena..!! Wow... This may suggest that the Agencies investigating his death may very well be "circling the wagon", so to speak... If you know what I mean... Interesting..

Poochie

ScoobyDoo

07-15-2009, 04:16 PM

as am I. this is appalling, to denigrate a childs grief, including comments about the boys chewing gum.

IMO
sort of o/t but there is a little known fact about gum chewing, it helps stop tears. If you chew gum while chopping an onion it really helps.

Then to suggest that she is not really crying is just lame. You can hear the sobbing as she held on to her Aunt. Maybe the poster should make an appointment to get her hubby's ears checked.

reborn

07-15-2009, 04:27 PM

Then you really dont know of where I speak from...My underlined bolded comment in your post is soso wrong..I have dealt professionally for decades with various addicts..across the board, and mostly regualr ordinary peole..not STARS...My post is only trying to answer or reply to the poster..not the overall affliction of Drug addictions by society..

I Do Indeed get it reborn!!

Addiction is indeed a big problem in society..but we are speaking about MJ..and his ability to access ..

LMS
I guess I just see it different than you. I don't see MJ's addiction any different than any other persons addiction. He wanted the drugs he was getting. I feel if he hadn't gotten them from this Dr. then he would have gotten them some other way. He wasn't able to face the fact he had a problem and it led to his death.

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 04:28 PM

A $100,000 pharmacy bill might not be outrageous for a chemotherapy patient, but I would think it would be noticed by someone eventually.

I doubt a retail pharmacy would supply a IV anesthetic to any customer. Hospitals get their drugs through other channels. Perhaps Murray was a go between for diversion from a hospital pharmacy or OR. A busy OR in a big hospital might go through a case of the stuff in a month.

I think that the bill of $100,000 is being misrepresented here but I have to go out for awhile. There was a lawsuit back in 2007, filed by the Fine Pharmacy which claimed that jackson owed them over 100,000 grand. These were for drugs that they had filled since 2005. I will look for links to give here. I DID NOT see anything that reflects recent drugs costs.

reborn

07-15-2009, 04:30 PM

He was totally self-absorbed and really into self gratification. He loved his children but he loved himself more.

Thats the case with all addicts.

Poochie Pie

07-15-2009, 04:35 PM

I guess I just see it different than you. I don't see MJ's addiction any different than any other persons addiction. He wanted the drugs he was getting. I feel if he hadn't gotten them from this Dr. then he would have gotten them some other way. He wasn't able to face the fact he had a problem and it led to his death. It may have "led" to his death, reborn..... But... did it actually "Kill" him..??? I think that is the question in everyone's mind...

Poochie

VC2

07-15-2009, 04:49 PM

btw...i had a horrid day, had to go to the dentist and was thinking of MJ a lot. i was hysterically sobbing in fear at going.

Since i didnt have a ride, i could only take 2 ativan which for me does nothing except perhaps stop the outright hysteria to the point of throwing up to calm down to just sobbing. (normally i am sedated with 3 ativan and two demerol for dental visits)

I so completey understand why he wanted anaesthetics for minor procedures. There is nothing more frightening to some than 1. pain and 2. feeling in any way someone cutting/working on/drilling your body.

MJ imo did not think of his diprivan use as dangerous bc he had taken it lots of times before in real clinical settings and it worked with no problem. I venture to say the majority of non medical ppl ignore side effect warnings if its a drug they have taken before without suffering any. Yes nurse warned him but he also had another doc saying it could be done so long as was monitored the whole time

jmo

eta and be gentle today to me..i still feel like the two year old and have stitches.

Brattnt

07-15-2009, 04:51 PM

Faux as Mjs nose. Gum chewing helps stop your ears from popping while in flight, not from crying while on National Television. imo

:laugh:

It's pretty dang pathetic that all you have to contribute to this discussion is putting down Michaels children while at his Memorial...

MOO

flipflop

07-15-2009, 05:03 PM

Access Hollywood
updated 1:06 p.m. ET, Wed., July 15, 2009

LOS ANGELES - Despite an online report claiming Michael Jackson’s death has now turned into a homicide investigation, a Los Angeles Police Department spokesperson told Access Hollywood the investigation of the singer’s death is “ongoing” and currently not being treated as a homicide.

On Wednesday, TMZ claimed that “the LAPD is already treating Michael Jackson’s death as a homicide, and they are focusing on Dr. Conrad Murray,” citing multiple law enforcement sources. The Web site further claimed that “the evidence points to the anesthesia propofol as the primary cause of Jackson’s death.”

When contacted by Access Hollywood, LAPD Officer Tenesh Dobine defined the investigation as “ongoing” and said that they do not know where TMZ obtained information indicating Jackson’s death was now being treated as a homicide.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31923614/ns/entertainment-access_hollywood/?GT1=43001

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 05:05 PM

Rowe Not Looking for Cash Cow

Posted Jul 15th 2009 1:50AM by TMZ Staff

Debbie Rowe Not Looking for Cash CowSources connected with the custody case involving Michael Jackson's kids tell us all Debbie Rowe wants is assurance that the Jackson family will honor the deal she had with Michael.

Rowe and Jackson struck an agreement in which she was paid a large sum over a period of years. We're told the current negotiations between the parties center on that agreement and whether the Jackson family will continue to honor it. Although the agreement stays in effect after Jackson's death, we're told Rowe wants assurance the family will abide by the terms.

Our sources say the talks between Rowe and the Jackson family do not involve anything beyond what Rowe would receive under the agreement and she will not fight for custody.
See Also

* Rowe's Lawyer -- Debbie Doesn't Want MJ's Money

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 05:13 PM

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 05:14 PM

because he didn't want to face his accuser who was on the stand that day! IMO

That seemed obvious to me at the time.

in my opinion only

bkwits

07-15-2009, 05:28 PM

How strange....the children are Jewish and since we have all seen MJ celebrating birthdays with his children they were not being raised Jehovah Witnesses by him!

Were they being raised in the Jewish faith?

bamboopanda

07-15-2009, 05:41 PM

Ionmhainn

07-15-2009, 05:43 PM

Just a comment..why do people assume so much?..I dont believe ever the children's up bringing have been spoken about..although have heard that MJ was born and raised as a Jehovah Witness ..and apparantly converted to Islam last year..but no where have I seen what the kids were exposed to or raised as to religious wise?

LMS

I haven't heard anything about their religious upbringing either, but did hear that the Jacksons were JW. I'm pretty sure the Kingdom Hall referred to in another post is a "meeting place" or "church" and not a school, though.

bkwits

07-15-2009, 05:44 PM

Just a comment..why do people assume so much?..I dont believe ever the children's up bringing have been spoken about..although have heard that MJ was born and raised as a Jehovah Witness ..and apparantly converted to Islam last year..but no where have I seen what the kids were exposed to or raised as to religious wise?

LMS

I "assuming" that because Debbie Rowe is Jewish that the poster considered the children Jewish (at least the older two). The traditional way of looking at whether one is Jewish is if the mother is Jewish. Of course, there are conversions as well. IMO

bkwits

07-15-2009, 05:48 PM

I haven't heard anything about their religious upbringing either, but did hear that the Jacksons were JW. I'm pretty sure the Kingdom Hall referred to in another post is a "meeting place" or "church" and not a school, though.

I think the photo was of them going or coming from Vacation Bible School or Sunday School, if JWs have that. They have Bilbles in their hands.

Besides, it seems to be a very recent photo and school is out for the summer.

IMO

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 05:48 PM

The Jacksons were...MJ was not raising his children as JW

I'm thinking now they will be raised as JWs.

in my opinion

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Don't have a link since this was reported on Geraldo at Large approximately one week after MJ's death. According to Romaine Bain (MJ's prior publicist) she and Grace were NOT fired by MJ but by his handlers and it is believed that a female from the NOI was providing child care. JMO

I CAN BACK YOU UP...heard the same thing so if you are making stuff up I guess I am to..

ALSO just got on watched the Pepsi commercial very sad and also the pic from TMZ unless Blanket grew since the memorial who ever said it was him up thread must be blind that is NOT him...and sorry TMZ is a joke anymore..as is US weekly all JMO
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/jackos-kids-let-us-pray/

bamboopanda

07-15-2009, 05:52 PM

EMAA

07-15-2009, 05:54 PM

random thought from gma photo of mj's lesion on his shin we saw this morning which drs attributed to drug injections. hyperbaric chamber is used to heal open wounds - perhaps that is why he was using it - not to stay eternally young as we thought back then but to heal infections.

My thoughts as well, and, all his facial surgeries. Perhaps he was receiving the proponal while in the champer which is pure oxygen. Usually treated for 2 hrs at a time. He had so many surgries that hyberberic would seem almost have to be utilized due to it being his face.

Ionmhainn

07-15-2009, 06:01 PM

I think the photo was of them going or coming from Vacation Bible School or Sunday School, if JWs have that. They have Bilbles in their hands.

Besides, it seems to be a very recent photo and school is out for the summer.

IMO

Could be. My only reference is a childhood classmate who went to "meetings" at the local Kingdom Hall, while I went to church.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 06:04 PM

I'm thinking now they will be raised as JWs.

in my opinion

I think he was raising them to be what they wanted to be...but that is JMO..MJ stopped practicing JW a long time ago as did several of his siblings his father Joe well not sure about him what ever bible he was reading oked him to have a child out of wedlock and committing adultery so I do not call him a religious person sorry but I don't....I do not think any child should be pushed to practice any religion or why it is a big deal to any of us..they will do as they please I guess and MJ nor anyone on here has a say..JMO

Not talking to you retiredcop just a sad thing all around..I think he just raised them to love but that is just me..he loved Christmas he never had that..he loved birthdays..his first Christmas was at Neverland with Liz Taylor it is a sweet video.

Casecase

07-15-2009, 06:06 PM

I think the photo was of them going or coming from Vacation Bible School or Sunday School, if JWs have that. They have Bilbles in their hands.

Besides, it seems to be a very recent photo and school is out for the summer.

IMO

JWs don't have Vacation Bible School or Sunday School, and those are actually songbooks in their hands. Kingdom Halls are places of worship.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 06:11 PM

Thanks mom. :)

In all fairness to TMZ they only identified the two children that are MJ's. They did not ID the third but I posted a link - it is Jermaine Jackson's son "Jermajesty".

no I seen that I was not referring to TMZ on that..just some of their reporting has been over the top...but that is JMO.I had a good idea it was one of their cousins so did not even have to read it..but knew it was not Blanket and his appearance had been changed..as someone said

ish

07-15-2009, 06:15 PM

How strange....the children are Jewish and since we have all seen MJ celebrating birthdays with his children they were not being raised Jehovah Witnesses by him!

The fellow on JVM and Nancy Grace with the hat, he said Michael contacted him and wanted to discuss getting the children into the Jehovah Witness schools or education. He had been raised that way and wanted his kids to be taught the same. HAT GUY was the one that remarked on how Paris "insisted' on being in the room cause "I just love you so much daddy and have to be near you"

I guess the end of the birthday party years was upon them. LOL

Scampi

07-15-2009, 06:17 PM

His sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber was a hoax orchestrated by MJ.
Prove it.

BambooPanda, that is an excellent assumption on your part, imo.

Welcome to the forum, goodness knows we need thoughtful posters like you.

ish

07-15-2009, 06:21 PM

Soooo...are we to conclude that MJ was so stoned he didn't even realize Grace the nanny was missing? :laugh::laugh:

Maybe the new nanny wore a mask like the kids and he figured it was Grace.LOL Or perhaps Casey Anthony's invisible nanny was hired. If no nanny was there I'm sure the rest of the hired help stepped in.

ish

07-15-2009, 06:30 PM

lynda, mj's mom stated that she wished the kids had a more religious upbringing - that she took them to jehovas witness with her nowadays - its confusing - if she lived with them why werent they brought up that way? its a very strict religion - if im to believe sherry shepard on the view - thats not a great source but they cant date or dance - wouldnt work with mjs lifestye? so many contradictions to explain. the children already have so much to unscramble in their young minds with family and friends coming and going.

Can't dance!! How did Joe get around that one and have the J5 "dancing" all over the place. Well we can hope Katherine sticks to her guns now and keeps Blanket, who Joe says can really dance, on the path of a strict Jehovah Witness. That may be his only hope for a normal upbringing.

Casecase

07-15-2009, 06:31 PM

Can't dance!! How did Joe get around that one and have the J5 "dancing" all over the place. Well we can hope Katherine sticks to her guns now and keeps Blanket, who Joe says can really dance, on the path of a strict Jehovah Witness. That may be his only hope for a normal upbringing.

That's not true, that JWs aren't allowed to dance.

Ionmhainn

07-15-2009, 06:32 PM

Michael Jackson certainly did come to love Christmas and birthdays and I agree that is why he stopped practicing the JW religion. Also from what I understand it has never been confirmed that he actually converted to Islam. Also just to be clear - what Jermaine practices is the Orthodox Islam religion not the one that the NOI practices. He specifically addressed that in one of the many interviews we've seen him in recently. JMO

I was raised Cathlic but my children did not want to practice it after they made their Confirmation and I did not force it. They made up their own minds as to what religion they wanted to follow. :shrug:

It's not unusual, in wanting to establish your independence and "grownupness" to follow a different path than your parents did. It has more to do with that than any particular religion , imo. I think it's very wise of you not to force it. In my experience, lots of people "return to their roots" in later life. :)

My brother-in-law, who calls himself a "recovering Catholic" is married to a JW. I know they send Christmas and birthday cards! Not everyone follows their religion to the letter.

Anyway, while I have my concerns about MJ's children, seeing them go to meetings with their cousin isn't at at the top of my list! Hopefully they will find some comfort there....

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 06:34 PM

JWs don't have Vacation Bible School or Sunday School, and those are actually songbooks in their hands. Kingdom Halls are places of worship.

they used to scare the crap out of me years ago as a child knocking on my door I would hide and then caught 3 JW at my home talking to my son who was 13 at the time trying to get him to read their beliefs they showed up every Sunday until I called the law...just my experience of the JW in my town...NO ONE comes into my home to preach to my children when I do not practice their belief's so as long as no one ANY religion is being pushed on me or my children then they can all pray on just stay off my property..I belong to a small christian church and have for 37 years..I think it is sad if any religion is being pushed on these children..I never forced my children they made that choice themselves..have not been baptized so sick of seeing people being baptized and being a hypocrite and not living their life as they should...JMO and thoughts on it..

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 06:34 PM

Prove it.

BambooPanda, that is an excellent assumption on your part, imo.

Welcome to the forum, goodness knows we need thoughtful posters like you.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/66882

JACKO USED THE ENQUIRER TO FIRST CREATE HIS "BIZARRE" SELF- IMAGE BACK IN 1986

ish

07-15-2009, 06:37 PM

I didn't believe a single word HAT GUY said! he gave me the willies

A lot of MJ hangers on do that to me!!

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 06:50 PM

That's not true, that JWs aren't allowed to dance.

remember when they were talking on what type of funeral would be held that is when they said something about dancing and drinking..I do not practice it but I think that came up over the way they conduct funerals..not sure though...

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 06:55 PM

Good afternoon all -- see it's been busy - trying to get caught up

Thanks for posting this kella.... this has to be one of the most thought out articles I've read re: the custody of the children.

I also notice that most of us here regardless of what we think of MJ -- want the best for his children. JMHO

Absolutely, Athena! I've made no bones about my opinions about Jackson. And my intense sympathies for the children. I care very much about them and wish the very best for them...love, stability, a normal life out of the spotlight.

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 06:57 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-02/new-trial-of-the-century/?cid=bsa:moreauthor1

Marcia Clark's take on a possible prosecution of Jackson's pill-suppliers.

Scampi

07-15-2009, 07:01 PM

Pick a link...any link...

http://www.google.com/hws/search?hl=en&client=dell-usuk&channel=us-psp&ibd=6071231&q=hyperbaric+chamber+michael+jackson

That is not proof to me.

kellabeck

07-15-2009, 07:03 PM

'
She had a high reading of one drug, the CH. Something she ingested. It is a far cry from an IV line being inserted and a drug dripping.

About MJ, oh they should find the one drug but what happens if all the rest is a standard level for someone being on pain meds? Will the blood work show an addiction as everyone is suggesting?

Firehead-- a question...Are you suggesting that Michael Jackson who was sued by a pharmacy for not paying a $100,000 bill, who wrote a song to Demerol, whose friend Deepak Chopra refused to give him a scrip for oxycontin and who urged him to get help, and who admitted to having a dependency on pain meds, that Michael Jackson WASN'T addicted??

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:15 PM

Kimberly Jamison, medical director of wound healing center at Boone Hospital, said patients in a hyperbaric chamber breathe 100 percent oxygen at a pressure that equals the sensation of diving 33 feet under the sea. Normally, she said, people breathe 21 percent oxygen.

"This will help drive more oxygen into tissues, helping ulcers to heal more quickly and can be used to treat bone infection," Jamison said.

While hyperbaric chambers can treat carbon monoxide poisoning, and some experts are looking to use the chambers to treat cerebral palsy and autism, the ones at Boone Hospital will mostly be used to treat wounds.

"These can be diabetic wounds, pressure wounds or vascular ulcers," Jamison said. The chambers will also be used to heal grafts, radiation wounds and infection of bones.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2008/11/19/hyperbaric-chamber/

The treatment is not new to the medical field, and is used in 15 different applications including oxygen depravation, open wound healing, ulcerated sores and wounds and crushed tissue healing. The treatment is used to force pure oxygen into damaged and affected areas to restore blood flow and assist in nerve healing.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+Nation+Watches+as+Fallen+Miner+Enters+Hyperbaric +Chamber-a0140560471

On one of the many shows sorry can not remember he said it was all a joke he bought it and donated it to a burn unit several pics show him with 2 doctors looking at it....he pulled one over on the media for once I think it is the OPRAH interview it is on YouTube she ask him about it and he laughed..lol..anyway they do treat Insomnia I read Keanu Reeves gets treatments for insomnia and also referred another actor who he was filming with to also try it..maybe a HOLLYWOOD thing who knows

http://www.celebitchy.com/11188/keanu_reeves_is_getting_hyperbaric_oxygen_chamber_ treatments/
In Keanu’s case “he has Global Hyperbaric bring a portable chamber to his Hollywood Hills home, and sometimes his movie set, to administer the treatment” and has received it “numerous times,” according to the Enquirer. He also convinced his co-star in the film Street Kings, Naomi Harris, to give it a try.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Keanu-Reeves,-Insomnia,-and-Hyperbaric-Oxygen-Chambers&id=1745453
Insomnia is a sleeping disorder that is characterized by persistent difficulty in falling asleep or staying asleep despite the opportunity. According to the United States Department of Health and Human Services in year 2007, there were approximately 64 million Americans suffering from insomnia on a regular basis each year. Insomnia according to the source also occurs 1.4 times more commonly in women than in men.

http://www.balancedhealthtoday.com/blog/tag/insomnia-treatment/

retiredcop

07-15-2009, 07:28 PM

That's not proof that IS the National Enquirer :confused:

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/66882

Jackson supplied Polaroids of himself napping in the chamber to The Enquirer through his then-manager Frank DiLeo.

"Michael specifically insisted that the world 'bizarre' be used in the story to identify him," DiLeo recalled.

Firehead11

07-15-2009, 07:29 PM

Firehead-- a question...Are you suggesting that Michael Jackson who was sued by a pharmacy for not paying a $100,000 bill, who wrote a song to Demerol, whose friend Deepak Chopra refused to give him a scrip for oxycontin and who urged him to get help, and who admitted to having a dependency on pain meds, that Michael Jackson WASN'T addicted??

Kella, I don't know. I just know that I thought that Smith was a bigtime druggie and look at what showed up in her blood at the autopsy. All normal levels with the exception of the CH. I would have swore that she popped pills day and night. She was actually taking the meds as prescribed to her.

I haven't hear about Chopra refusing to give Jackson a script. There are too many people coming out of the woodwork for their 5 minutes of fame. Some wanting to absolve themselves of not helping Jackson? I don't know. I do not want to do a judgement based on tabloid rumors.

I looked for when Jackson might have been in a rehab. I did not find one link. I just tried to look for where Jackson admitted to being dependant on pain meds, again I didn't find any.

I just want the truth of the matter and I fully realize that I may never hear it.

aproudmom

07-15-2009, 07:36 PM

Madonna and how she stays looking young..man sure wish I had the money I would not mind looking 20 rather than 37:biggrin:

Madonna's Fountain of Youth!

She's talked about it on her website, she even has her own personal hyperbaric oxygen treatment machine in each of her 3 homes. What started as an "underground" celebrity treatment has quickly become the "Fountain of Youth" for Madonna and other A-list celebrities like Molly Sims, Eva Longoria Parker, Gweneth Paltrow and many others.

The Facts:

You see, hyperbaric oxygen treatment has been evolving since the 1940’s. More recently it was used to accelerate skin rejuvenation for burn victims. You may recall that Michael Jackson was one of the first high profile celebs to sleep in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. Hyperbaric oxygen is simply oxygen at a pressure that is above one atmosphere or high-pressure oxygen. Doctors know that adjunctive hyperbaric oxygen therapy has been shown to limit the progression of burn injury, reduce swelling, may reduce the need for surgical intervention, diminish lung damage and shorten the time of hospitalization because it accelerates the production of collagen.
http://www.beautynewsla.com/skin-care/the-oxygen-facial-fact-fiction-fabulous/