Michael Jackson ~ Weekend Jul 11-12

[Eagleeye]

New thread, be nice. :smile:

[*Serenity*]

Tell me what has become of my life
I have a wife and two
children who love me
I am the victim of
police brutality, now
I'm tired of bein' the victim of hate
You're rapin' me of my pride
Oh, for God's sake
I look to heaven to
fulfill its prophecy...
Set me free



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqQ2JcQWGs

[kellabeck]

bringing this issue over from previous thread.

Firebird11 posted a claim about the mother of the accuser and that she had named her baby after Michael Jackson.

And I asked, and repeat it here: Do you have a link for that?

[magnolia]

bringing this issue over from previous thread.

Firebird11 posted a claim about the mother of the accuser and that she had named her baby after Michael Jackson.

And I asked, and repeat it here: Do you have a link for that?

I'd like to know also. I've looked for it and can't find a thing about it.

[kellabeck]

I'd like to know also. I've looked for it and can't find a thing about it.

Me neither. It might be like the false story of Jordy Chandler's recantation.

And I've been wondering--- anyone hear anything from Oprah about Jackson?

[Gilly]

bringing this issue over from previous thread.

Firebird11 posted a claim about the mother of the accuser and that she had named her baby after Michael Jackson.

And I asked, and repeat it here: Do you have a link for that?

She married Jay Jackson making her Janet Jackson. I don't remember off hand what their child was called but I'll have a look and see what I can find.

[VC2]

bringing this issue over from previous thread.

Firebird11 posted a claim about the mother of the accuser and that she had named her baby after Michael Jackson.

And I asked, and repeat it here: Do you have a link for that?

not firehead and i seem to remember something like that but she might have actually meant that the mother of the accused named HERSELF JANET JACKSON :sneaky: I am not sure if she named a new baby michael or not. It is very very hard to google because it means googling janet jackson and michael jackson

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Barbara Johnson sentenced Arvizo—whose married name since 2004 happens to be Janet Jackson—to 150 hours of community service and ordered her to pay $8,600 in restitution. If Arvizo comes through with her end of the deal by Apr. 27, she won't have to return to court for a sentencing hearing.

http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/b53757_jackson_accusers_mom_cops_plea.html

[*Serenity*]

Me neither. It might be like the false story of Jordy Chandler's recantation.

And I've been wondering--- anyone hear anything from Oprah about Jackson?


She may NOT have been invited by the family... :)
PLUS I read where she is supposedly on another cruise. lol

[flipflop]

TY, never seen that video. I'm in awe all over again, such talent and his lyrics have much meaning to him and his fan's IMO


That is a good video. Wow. I think that is the first time I have seen him in jeans.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqQ2JcQWGs

That song is so meaningful.

God took him home away from all of the blind hate.

May he rest in peace!:rose:

[*Serenity*]

TY, never seen that video. I'm in awe all over again, such talent and his lyrics have much meaning to him and his fan's IMO

His last video clip alive at Staples rehearsing was the same song. :(


http://www.popsugar.com/3420477

[Scampi]

Me neither. It might be like the false story of Jordy Chandler's recantation.

And I've been wondering--- anyone hear anything from Oprah about Jackson?

Morning Kell!! This has been the grade A mystery to me, how this event took place without the presence of the mighty "O" very curious to me.

[Dunlurken]

I have a very dumb question.... but it was discussed on LKL the other night. Those two boys look just like Miko Brando. Am I off my rocker?

And........ who on earth would let someone take 30-40 Xanax at once? That is like committing suicide. Tolerance, smolerance. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

Morning Kell!! This has been the grade A mystery to me, how this event took place without the presence of the mighty "O" very curious to me.
I think the point is that the ax is going to fall as to who supplied him with drugs. Anyone with "sense"..... "can't touch this". JMO. Liza Minelli said when the toxicology comes back, the chit is going to hit the fan. JMOA.

[*Serenity*]

That song is so meaningful.

God took him home away from all of the blind hate.

May he rest in peace!:rose:

He sang about being set free............. and while I am so sad he is gone, I feel comfort in knowing he is away from this world of hate, and fighting his own battles. His 50 years of life was filled with so much, I can't imagine how he even lived to be 50. I watch him perform, dance, sing, tour, take on so many huge projects, and then finally end up feeling so alone. It is sad on one hand, and so happy on the other that he finally set free. We lost an icon that cared and contriubuted --doubt we see that again in our lifetime.

[Dunlurken]

Personally, I think he took himself away from the blind hate. He was a music icon, no doubt, but his drugs ..... heck he was as an addict. So SAD.

I worry about what the children saw in regards to his drug use. JMO.

[Gilly]

I have a very dumb question.... but it was discussed on LKL the other night. Those two boys look just like Miko Brando. Am I off my rocker?

And........ who on earth would let someone take 30-40 Xanax at once? That is like committing suicide. Tolerance, smolerance. JMO.

Not off your rocker :laugh: Not sure what night it was but there was a guest host on LKL and a reporter from Extra or some such show. They asked Miko if he was the father and he laughed and said he was not.

[Dunlurken]

Not off your rocker :laugh: Not sure what night it was but there was a guest host on LKL and a reporter from Extra or some such show. They asked Miko if he was the father and he laughed and said he was not.

Those two boys look just like Miko. Don't know if it's a coincidence or what. All you have to do is look at the facial features. Polynesian, etc.

[tisamystery]

At the memorial, as guests finsihed speaking/singing the brothers would embrace them. Anybody notice that when Rev. Al Sharpton left the stage Joe Jackson joined the brothers and Sharpton ignored his presence? Then Sharpton walked down the family line to shake hands or hug. Again, he passed right by Joe Jackson. It seems a lot of Michael's friends and admirers consider Joe personna non grata.

Anybody else notice this?

[Eagleeye]

The myth, mystery, history and legacy of Michael Jackson are in the eyes and ears of the beholder. Some will remember him in their minds and hearts in a positive way. Some will remember him in a negative way. That doesn’t make either side of the issue right or wrong. Some would elevate him to Sainthood, which in this poster’s opinion is a huge stretch. He was not Mother Teresa nor was he Jack the Ripper. I think now the big question here is:


Was he murdered?
Was it an accidental overdose?
Did his frail body finally give out on him?
Last but not least will his children be safe and protected?

Does it matter now if some say that he was a child molester? The jury said no. Many believe otherwise. I ask you all what good does it do to rehash the trial and the accusations against him. It was over long ago. Some here wish to antagonize each other at risk of getting banned. Is it worth it?

I never watched or listened to his music. It just wasn’t my cup of tea so to speak. I can’t be a critic of that. I only heard of him in the news. I have my opinions and thoughts, which I will not share, only to say that I am not losing sleep nor posting endlessly in defense or criticism of him. His departed soul rests now in the hands of his maker and no amount of carping is going to change that.

Hopefully he can now rest in peace, as I am not sure he had that in his lifetime.

[Dunlurken]

At the memorial, as guests finsihed speaking/singing the brothers would embrace them. Anybody notice that when Rev. Al Sharpton left the stage Joe Jackson joined the brothers and Sharpton ignored his presence? Then Sharpton walked down the family line to shake hands or hug. Again, he passed right by Joe Jackson. It seems a lot of Michael's friends and admirers consider Joe personna non grata.

Anybody else notice this?

Yes, I noticed it. And if Catherine doesn't distance herself from Joe, legally, she's going to lose custody of those kids. Why was the hearing rescheduled? So Catherine and Debbie could reach a settlement? What a crock. JMO.

[flipflop]

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the central target in both the coroner and LAPD investigations into Michael Jackson's death is Dr. Conrad Murray, who was at Jackson's house when the singer went into full cardiac arrest.

Sources say the doctor is not cooperating with authorities, but they have still found evidence linking him to the drug that may have killed Jackson. As we first reported, as a result of Dr. Murray's second interview with police two weeks ago today, the LAPD obtained a warrant to conduct a second search of Jackson's home -- and that's when they found Propofol, a powerful anesthesia that should never be used outside a hospital. There is evidence Propofol was administered to Jackson shortly before his heart stopped beating.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-drugs-propofol-dr-arnold-lkein/

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Those two boys look just like Miko. Don't know if it's a coincidence or what. All you have to do is look at the facial features. Polynesian, etc.


Wonder if they snaffoo's Miko's cup..for DNA spec...LOL

Your right tho..the two boys sure does indicate those features..especially the eys, and hair!

LMS

[Dunlurken]

Maybe that's what happened. Being sleep deprived and taking many different meds I can see how a person could make an irrational decision, especially if they had a lot of pain. I have heard this called an accidental suicide as well.
IMO

Just like Anna Nicole. But, when you consider the "enablers" around him, people getting prescription drugs in their own name and Michael paying for them, it's not good. People are going to go down and it's about time.

I'm not sure I blame the doctors. They have no idea which other doctors are prescribing what medications. For instance, my husband was doctor shopping. I had to put a STOP to that.

However, whoever administered Diprivan in a non-hospital setting is in deep-dodo. JMO.

[who_is_it]

not firehead and i seem to remember something like that but she might have actually meant that the mother of the accused named HERSELF JANET JACKSON :sneaky: I am not sure if she named a new baby michael or not. It is very very hard to google because it means googling janet jackson and michael jackson

http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/b53757_jackson_accusers_mom_cops_plea.html

Yes, I remember, too, that she married somenone called Jay Jackson.

This is about her community service:

The mother of Michael Jackson's 2004 accuser is no longer a felon.

TMZ was in court as Janet Arvizo (whose married name is now ironically Janet Jackson) told a judge -- through her attorney -- that she successfully completed her community service in connection with a no contest plea to felony welfare fraud.

During cross-examination in the 2005 molestation trial, Arvizo admitted she had failed to disclose income that would have disqualified her from receiving $8,606.98 in welfare benefits.

After the judge was satisfied that Arvizo complied by paying the fine and doing the community service time, she reduced the felony to a misdemeanor.

http://www.tmz.com/2007/08/01/mom-of-jacksons-accuser-im-only-a-small-fraud/

[Dunlurken]

Wonder if they snaffoo's Miko's cup..for DNA spec...LOL

Your right tho..the two boys sure does indicate those features..especially the eys, and hair!

LMS

Miko better lawyer up and stay off TV. JMO. He's been around Michael for years and years. I noticed how he back peddled the other night and said, no, I was just a "roadie". He's got something to hide. JMOA.

[Poochie Pie]

At the memorial, as guests finsihed speaking/singing the brothers would embrace them. Anybody notice that when Rev. Al Sharpton left the stage Joe Jackson joined the brothers and Sharpton ignored his presence? Then Sharpton walked down the family line to shake hands or hug. Again, he passed right by Joe Jackson. It seems a lot of Michael's friends and admirers consider Joe personna non grata.

Anybody else notice this? I noticed it as well, mystery.. I felt it was quite appropriate... It has been said many times that Joe Jackson was the driving force behind Michael's fame and fortune.. and rise to Stardom... IMO, he was also the "driving force" behind Michael's pain and heartbreak... and the total LACK of a normal childhood..!! I believe MJ spent his entire life trying to "recover" the childhood he never had thanks to his abusive, bullying Father.. I have absolutely NO respect for Joe Jackson... IMO

Poochie

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Just like Anna Nicole. But, when you consider the "enablers" around him, people getting prescription drugs in their own name and Michael paying for them, it's not good. People are going to go down and it's about time.

I'm not sure I blame the doctors. They have no idea which other doctors are prescribing what medications. For instance, my husband was doctor shopping. I had to put a STOP to that.

However, whoever administered Diprivan in a non-hospital setting is in deep-dodo. JMO.


However, when Dr. write perscriptions, they must have some medical rational for it..especially the controlled substances!! Its obvious his staffers didnt have those medical issues to have them perscribed//

As for Diprivan..yepper..Dr.Murray is in deeep do-doo..even if he didnt prescribe it..he administered it...Bad..Bad thing to do!! I have been mocked for my blaming of Dr. Murray..but I call it the way I see it..as I know what medical ethics are..mean..and He broke alo of RULES!! I am ashamed of him really!

LMS

[Dunlurken]

However, when Dr. write perscriptions, they must have some medical rational for it..especially the controlled substances!! Its obvious his staffers didnt have those medical issues to have them perscribed//

As for Diprivan..yepper..Dr.Murray is in deeep do-doo..even if he didnt prescribe it..he administered it...Bad..Bad thing to do!! I have been mocked for my blaming of Dr. Murray..but I call it the way I see it..as I know what medical ethics are..mean..and He broke alo of RULES!! I am ashamed of him really!

LMS

Here's the question about Dr. Murray. He is not board certified in California, I'm not sure if he's certified anywhere. Someone was getting the Diprivan for Dr. Murray, or else someone was stealing it from a hospital setting. JMO.

I believe the chef, can't remember his name, who was only working for Michael for one month. He's the one who saw the oxygen tanks, etc. JMO.

[Poochie Pie]

Good afternoon all :)

Not surprising -- this Doc IMO is up to his eyeballs in this.

It is being reported that MJ self-injected himself in the neck? I have a really difficult time accepting this from a man who is said to be afraid of needles? Hi there Athena.. Agree 100% with this entire post... Michael is gone, and to ME, the most unforgiveable act re this Doctor is the fact that he let 30 minutes lapse (maybe even more) before calling 911...!! I will always wonder if MJ could have been saved... The Dr.'s stories.. FGS... "The landline didn't work".. He couldn't find a phone.. He didn't know the ADDRESS... (Where he had been living for almost 2 weeks, of course).... I am just appalled...

Poochie

[Dunlurken]

Good afternoon all :)

Not surprising -- this Doc IMO is up to his eyeballs in this.

It is being reported that MJ self-injected himself in the neck? I have a really difficult time accepting this from a man who is said to be afraid of needles?

I see manslaughter charges coming down the pike. Veins collapsed due to over usage. That's a person who is about to die. Diabetics veins collapse due to dialysis. JMO.

[Mnchkin426]

However, when Dr. write perscriptions, they must have some medical rational for it..especially the controlled substances!! Its obvious his staffers didnt have those medical issues to have them perscribed//

As for Diprivan..yepper..Dr.Murray is in deeep do-doo..even if he didnt prescribe it..he administered it...Bad..Bad thing to do!! I have been mocked for my blaming of Dr. Murray..but I call it the way I see it..as I know what medical ethics are..mean..and He broke alo of RULES!! I am ashamed of him really!

LMS

Has there been any proof that Diprivan caused MJ's death? Seems to me that until that issue is cleared up, neither Dr. Murray or anyone else can be assumed to have administered it. Shouldn't we wait for the toxicology reports? JMO
What rules did Dr. Murray break? Not bein snarky, really don't know.

[Dunlurken]

the milligrams could be . 5 per pill. I don't really believe these reports yet. My dr. gave me 60 Valuims 10 ml. 2 times a day or when needed, a month. Pain keeps you awake specially in Mi sucky weather. I did go off, them maybe that's why I can be snarky:tonguewag:

I don't know who the kids look like. But they don't need another daddy, they have, in memories and love, the 1 they loved and who loved them. Wish the media would stop this.
See, that's the problem. when people doctor shop, they can get a lot of drugs. My husband was taking multiple pills from multiple doctors. I finally called one doctor and said did you know he's taking this and that, etc...... that doctor never would see him again. My husband was also going to different pharmacies.

some doctors do have ethics. JMO.

Here's the problem with Michael though. If you have pills prescribed in different names, which people were providing to him under their own name, it's a cocktail for death. Which is where we are now.

[Poochie Pie]

the milligrams could be . 5 per pill. I don't really believe these reports yet. My dr. gave me 60 Valuims 10 ml. 2 times a day or when needed, a month. Pain keeps you awake specially in Mi sucky weather. I did go off, them maybe that's why I can be snarky:tonguewag:

I don't know who the kids look like. But they don't need another daddy, they have, in memories and love, the 1 they loved and who loved them. Wish the media would stop this. "But they don't need another daddy, they have, in memories and love, the 1 they loved and who loved them"... The most beautiful sentiment I have seen in this entire tragedy, Snarky...!!! Thank you...

Poochie

[Dunlurken]

Hi Lynda - Correct me if I am wrong -- I thought diprivan would have to be retrieved from a hospital or someplace where surgery is done. I don't think a prescription is written for this? :confused:

Correct, it's not a "controlled" substance because you can't get it any place except in a hospital.

But..... can it be brought in from different countries? aka Bahrain?

[GentleBreeze]

I still wonder just how many drugs Michael was really taking right before his death. Not through the years but shortly before.

To me they seem to be honing in on Dr. Murray as the reason why MJ died. I believe he will be charged. He didn't have a license to do this and he did not even follow proper procedures and left the patient unattended which is a no, no.

I have always felt that Murray worked so long on MJ not for MJs sake but trying to save his own skin.

imo

[Dunlurken]

"But they don't need another daddy, they have, in memories and love, the 1 they loved and who loved them"... The most beautiful sentiment I have seen in this entire tragedy, Snarky...!!! Thank you...

Poochie

How could he love them when he was screwed up all the time? Believe me, I cherish the memory of Michael, and what he used to be.

I found it very interesting that the daughter followed Michael around. Was it because she was looking to see who administered drugs to him? Was she "grown up" beyond her years? Was Michael doing the same thing to them (the kids) that his father did to him? JMO.

throw soft pillows please.

[Poochie Pie]

This has bothered me a lot too and I can't imagine that behavior from a doctor. In 30 minutes someone at the house could have taken MJ to the hospital themselves. Not ideal, but better than just waiting.
IMO Absolutely, BackChat..!! The "good doctor's" BMW was sitting right there in the garage, after all... (Before the Police later towed it, of course)..

Poochie

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Here's the question about Dr. Murray. He is not board certified in California, I'm not sure if he's certified anywhere. Someone was getting the Diprivan for Dr. Murray, or else someone was stealing it from a hospital setting. JMO.

I believe the chef, can't remember his name, who was only working for Michael for one month. He's the one who saw the oxygen tanks, etc. JMO.

Your right, Dr. Murray was not Board Certified..I read from a link somewhere, that he had failed his last testing to get his certification..so right there, tells you his capabilities..Also, he did not have any priveleges in California..he could not admit a patient into any hospital..so would always have to either call 911 or get a local physician to admit...The Diprivan had to have been obtained "under the table'..somehow..have no clue..but there is no way he had that drug for any legit purposes...wonder if he will throw whoever supplied him under the bus?..and Yes, this chef person did speak to those pesky Oxygen tanks..and some here even claimed him to be seeking his 15 minutes of fame, no credibility..but to me at the time..it sure fit..and means, the "Sleep Therapy" had been going on for some time..

LMS

[Dunlurken]

Your right, Dr. Murray was not Board Certified..I read from a link somewhere, that he had failed his last testing to get his certification..so right there, tells you his capabilities..Also, he did not have any priveleges in California..he could not admit a patient into any hospital..so would always have to either call 911 or get a local physician to admit...The Diprivan had to have been obtained "under the table'..somehow..have no clue..but there is no way he had that drug for any legit purposes...wonder if he will throw whoever supplied him under the bus?..and Yes, this chef person did speak to those pesky Oxygen tanks..and some here even claimed him to be seeking his 15 minutes of fame, no credibility..but to me at the time..it sure fit..and means, the "Sleep Therapy" had been going on for some time..

LMSThe sleep thereapy is just crazy though. You aren't asleep, you are in a medically induced coma. No wonder Michael died.

Heads are going to roll, or they should. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

Hi GB - Some may not agree with me but I am tired of hearing these TV news bites about MJ taking 40 Xanax a night. It amazes me that these crooked security guards are the source of this info and Chris Carter in particular is a convicted felon. How did they know how many pills MJ was taking? I find it difficult to believe he took them in front of anyone and most of all I don't trust the source. JMHO

Personally I poo poo most of the info we are hearing until the official coroner's autopsy report is released or explained although I do believe if diprivan is involved again Dr. Murray is up to his eyeballs in this. MOO

Personally, I think the COD was deferred until toxicology comes back. Let us not forget Diprivan leaves the system almost immediately. without a trace so to speak. JMO.

[GentleBreeze]

How could he love them when he was screwed up all the time? Believe me, I cherish the memory of Michael, and what he used to be.

I found it very interesting that the daughter followed Michael around. Was it because she was looking to see who administered drugs to him? Was she "grown up" beyond her years? Was Michael doing the same thing to them (the kids) that his father did to him? JMO.

throw soft pillows please.

It was because he was such a good father to follow around. If you had watched as many videos that I have seen of him and his children you would know they adored their daddy. He was sweet, loving, gentle and interacted with them. Why wouldn't they love a daddy like that.

Michael would never hurt a child the way his father hurt him. That is ridiculous. MJ was not and has never been like JJ.

imo

[Dunlurken]

My insurance........ medicaid are very strict about scripts from my experience. He had to paid cash for all the scripts. Would a insurance co. legally pay for his scripts and dipravan?

Michael didn't need health insurance. He had the cash, which is why he is now broke. He's not your average Joe. JMO.

[Poochie Pie]

How could he love them when he was screwed up all the time? Believe me, I cherish the memory of Michael, and what he used to be.

I found it very interesting that the daughter followed Michael around. Was it because she was looking to see who administered drugs to him? Was she "grown up" beyond her years? Was Michael doing the same thing to them (the kids) that his father did to him? JMO.

throw soft pillows please. Dunlurken... Drugs, Alcohol, death nor devastation could ever change the love I hold in my heart for my children and grandchildren.. "How could he love them"..?? To the best of his ability, I suppose.. even being screwed up all of the time.. Perhaps his daughter followed him around out of fear.. She does seem to be wise beyond her years.. Maybe she was worried about something happening to him.. (throwing an extremely soft pillow, LOL.. because I have always seen you as a very loving and compassionate mother and grandmother.. :wink:

Poochie

[Dunlurken]

It was because he was such a good father to follow around. If you had watched as many videos that I have seen of him and his children you would know they adored their daddy. He was sweet, loving, gentle and interacted with them. Why wouldn't they love a daddy like that.

Michael would never hurt a child the way his father hurt him. That is ridiculous. MJ was not and has never been like JJ.

imo

If he was in a medically induced coma at night, then I have to wonder about his parenting skills. JMO. And if he was a drug addict, I also have to wonder about his parenting skills. You and I have always agreed on his legacy, music Icon, etc. Let's not put good father in the same category though. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

Dunlurken... Drugs, Alcohol, death nor devastation could ever change the love I hold in my heart for my children and grandchildren.. "How could he love them"..?? To the best of his ability, I suppose.. even being screwed up all of the time.. Perhaps his daughter followed him around out of fear.. She does seem to be wise beyond her years.. Maybe she was worried about something happening to him.. (throwing an extremely soft pillow, LOL.. because I have always seen you as a very loving and compassionate mother and grandmother.. :wink:

Poochie

I just wonder about his judgment which was obviously clouded by drugs.

RIP Michael. You were loved by too many people, or else, not enough.

[GentleBreeze]

Hi GB - Some may not agree with me but I am tired of hearing these TV news bites about MJ taking 40 Xanax a night. It amazes me that these crooked security guards are the source of this info and Chris Carter in particular is a convicted felon. How did they know how many pills MJ was taking? I find it difficult to believe he took them in front of anyone and most of all I don't trust the source. JMHO

Personally I poo poo most of the info we are hearing until the official coroner's autopsy report is released or explained although I do believe if diprivan is involved again Dr. Murray is up to his eyeballs in this. MOO

Well I tell you this,IMO, if this tragic death was because of the inactions or ineptness of Dr. Murray, fans are going to be furious and so will his own family. The article said (yeah I know lol) that the drug has been traced back to Dr. Murray.

I just have read so many articles about MJ and things he did months before this happened and I just don't see some stoned out druggie but a man that was very much getting his life together.

imo

[Not Telling]

Your right, Dr. Murray was not Board Certified..I read from a link somewhere, that he had failed his last testing to get his certification..so right there, tells you his capabilities..Also, he did not have any priveleges in California..he could not admit a patient into any hospital..so would always have to either call 911 or get a local physician to admit...The Diprivan had to have been obtained "under the table'..somehow..have no clue..but there is no way he had that drug for any legit purposes...wonder if he will throw whoever supplied him under the bus?..and Yes, this chef person did speak to those pesky Oxygen tanks..and some here even claimed him to be seeking his 15 minutes of fame, no credibility..but to me at the time..it sure fit..and means, the "Sleep Therapy" had been going on for some time..

LMS

If you look at these pictures from the raid on Neverland Ranch, in 2003, picture #5 of 37 shows a storage room that has 2 wheelchairs, at least 10 oxygen tanks and an oxygen concentrator...
http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures#46697

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Personally, I think the COD was deferred until toxicology comes back. Let us not forget Diprivan leaves the system almost immediately. without a trace so to speak. JMO.

It takes a while to be absolutely out of all systems Dunlurken..There a 3 phases..action almost immediately (40 seconds) when it reaches that part of the brain to "snow ya..under..", then has to be metabolized by the liver, then has to be disposed of via kidney and bladder..all takes a while, not immediate at all. So Michael crashing either during therapy (infusion), or when initialy coming back..would stop all metabolizing of that drug..I wager there was some found ..

People who have experienced this drug for surgeries, often claim a wonderful sense just before going under..seconds of bliss so to speak..time stands still..and you are awake..having no concept of time. Depending on what other meds were used for the procedure of aneasthesia..One may feel rested...or groggy..depends on the combo used..

LMS

[VC2]

However, when Dr. write perscriptions, they must have some medical rational for it..especially the controlled substances!! Its obvious his staffers didnt have those medical issues to have them perscribed//

As for Diprivan..yepper..Dr.Murray is in deeep do-doo..even if he didnt prescribe it..he administered it...Bad..Bad thing to do!! I have been mocked for my blaming of Dr. Murray..but I call it the way I see it..as I know what medical ethics are..mean..and He broke alo of RULES!! I am ashamed of him really!

LMS

Lynda ITA with you!

The one thing about the other drugs where i am less vehement about the doctors (unless it was one who never examined him or one who wrote 10 prescriptions for diff painkillers at once) is that MJ did have extremely legitimate medical rationale's for painkilling medication. Lupus alone is very painful at times, as is the chronic back condition from a documented broken vertebra, and iirc scarring in a place like the scalp where there is so little fat or muscle but so many nerves and blood vessels (2nd degree is considered by many the most painful because it leaves the nerves intact unlike 3rd or 4th degree where they are dead too) doesn't help especially with vitiligo.

If someone has a lupus outrbeak and goes to a doctor it is completely understood if they are prescribed a narcotic pain killer, especially if they have a high tolerance due to the burns etc when high usage was medically necessary.

So i do think that MJ is equally responsible as any doctors and there may be doctors who prescribed in all good faith. Hard to know what is right when someone says they are in severe pain and has the disease that causes it.

As far as Murray goes, imo that was pure manslaughter. Not just because he administered it (for example if MJ had died under Ratner in the 90's i would not call it that, ratner did take all precautions with his mini clinic and was a board certified anaesthesiologist..just unethical) but because he did so knowing he was completely unqualified and also took no minimal precautions for administering it. However as an M.D. he did this fully aware of the lethality without rescue equipment at his side and had the means to get the equipment. MJ might have known the side effects/dangers but i doubt he knew them in reality in his gut. Many non physicians read about side effects and yet still take a medication prescribed. IMO he felt by having Murray at his side monitoring him that he took care of the dangers. Heck he didn't die in hospital or in clinics when it was given (in his mind). He also knew he had a high tolerance to medications be it narcotics or otherwise which would give him a false sense of safety.

Murray is a blight on the medical profession, should lose his licence and spend 20 years in prison.

IMO

short version: MJ can be excused imo for believing he had done the "responsible thing" by having a doctor monitor him. Yes he does hold some fault for wanting the drug but not nearly as much as Murray. Doctors who prescribed narcotics may be able to be excused in some cases and the fault lies with MJ because as far as some knew he had a legitimate need for pain killers quite often and mj did not tell him that he had gotten them from other doctors too.

gosh not sure if even the short version explains what i am trying to say :laugh:

[Ontario]

At the memorial, as guests finsihed speaking/singing the brothers would embrace them. Anybody notice that when Rev. Al Sharpton left the stage Joe Jackson joined the brothers and Sharpton ignored his presence? Then Sharpton walked down the family line to shake hands or hug. Again, he passed right by Joe Jackson. It seems a lot of Michael's friends and admirers consider Joe personna non grata.

Anybody else notice this?

I think everyone noticed that, the family just let him be, becuase it was not about anyone else but Michael, so I feel they handled it very well, so speakers mentioned the (2) parents and some only mentioned the Mother, Catherine, I respect how the family handled a messy situation, he lived in Vegas, so that speaks in itself, it is all about him and no one else.

[GentleBreeze]

If he was in a medically induced coma at night, then I have to wonder about his parenting skills. JMO. And if he was a drug addict, I also have to wonder about his parenting skills. You and I have always agreed on his legacy, music Icon, etc. Let's not put good father in the same category though. JMO.

I think he was a great father and everyone that really really knew him AND his children have all said the same.

Even the nurse who visited the home this year remarked what a good father he was to his children. I rely on people who really knew him and that really saw him with his children.

imo

[Poochie Pie]

I just wonder about his judgment which was obviously clouded by drugs.

RIP Michael. You were loved by too many people, or else, not enough. Perhaps he just wasn't loved by the "right" people, Dunlurken...

Poochie

[Lyndawitha"Y]

If you look at these pictures from the raid on Neverland Ranch, in 2003, picture #5 of 37 shows a storage room that has 2 wheelchairs, at least 10 oxygen tanks and an oxygen concentrator...
http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures#46697

I saw that yesterday..and this is just more evidence that "Sleep Therapy" for MJ has been going on for years!! Tho Dr. Murray didnt initiate his treament back then..he took on a land-mind of problems taking over this therapy...You have to know, Michael was having a problem getting doctor to support his need for this treatment, and had to stoop in order to get this guy, who was vulnerable..in debt and not on firm footing in his business..

Unfortunately, Mj got what he paid for..I should say overpaid for..incompetent..and negligent..not a good combo when your life is in their hands..IMO

LMS

[tisamystery]

This has bothered me a lot too and I can't imagine that behavior from a doctor. In 30 minutes someone at the house could have taken MJ to the hospital themselves. Not ideal, but better than just waiting.
IMO

I think they needed 30 minutes to hide the evidence (equipment, drugs, etc.)

[VC2]

Well I tell you this,IMO, if this tragic death was because of the inactions or ineptness of Dr. Murray, fans are going to be furious and so will his own family. The article said (yeah I know lol) that the drug has been traced back to Dr. Murray.

I just have read so many articles about MJ and things he did months before this happened and I just don't see some stoned out druggie but a man that was very much getting his life together.

imo

ITA. i have a strong sense he was climbing out of the hole he had been in for a few years emotionally and physically. Even having Klein rebuilding his face to make it look more normal. That speaks to me of someone who is actually ready to get back in the world and actively enjoy it, not a stoned out druggie.

IMO

[Mnchkin426]

Your right, Dr. Murray was not Board Certified..I read from a link somewhere, that he had failed his last testing to get his certification..so right there, tells you his capabilities..Also, he did not have any priveleges in California..he could not admit a patient into any hospital..so would always have to either call 911 or get a local physician to admit...The Diprivan had to have been obtained "under the table'..somehow..have no clue..but there is no way he had that drug for any legit purposes...wonder if he will throw whoever supplied him under the bus?..and Yes, this chef person did speak to those pesky Oxygen tanks..and some here even claimed him to be seeking his 15 minutes of fame, no credibility..but to me at the time..it sure fit..and means, the "Sleep Therapy" had been going on for some time..

LMS

You are correct that Dr. Murray wasn't board certified but that would not prevent him from practicing. He was licensed (different that board certification) to practice in California, as well as Nevada and Texas. He might not have had hospital privileges but that isn't necessarily an indication of his medical abilities. I think this is more of a question of whether he chose to admit patients to a given hospital and whether he had applied to do so. Probably wasn't very responsible of him not to have done so. Not saying that any of this makes him a good or bad doctor. Just my thoughts and opinions.

Also, the oxygen tanks might have had something to do with his lupus....lung involvement? Or, maybe he suffered from sleep apnea. JMO

[Dunlurken]

Perhaps he just wasn't loved by the "right" people, Dunlurken...

Poochie

That's what I think. They wanted his money. I don't know who "they" are. But hopefully, someone will find out.

For some reason, I do hold him somewhat accountable. I get very angry with him for being GONE. Part of the grieving process, I guess. JMO.

RIP Michael. :rose:

[sofiesmom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqQ2JcQWGsI've been looking for this. I knew it existed, but had never seen it. TY so much.

[tisamystery]

ITA. i have a strong sense he was climbing out of the hole he had been in for a few years emotionally and physically. Even having Klein rebuilding his face to make it look more normal. That speaks to me of someone who is actually ready to get back in the world and actively enjoy it, not a stoned out druggie.

IMO

I thought Klein was his dermatologist not plastic surgeon. Am I wrong?

[Alibar]

I have a script for Xanax and happened to discover if I took half of the 5 mg tablet, I could go right to sleep at bedtime. Not sure how long it was, maybe 3 months, that it no longer worked. Wasn't ready to take a whole one, so went sleepless for over a week. Only take it rarely now and not for sleep.

If I took 10 tablets I would be asleep for a week and probably die during that time. Maybe a seasoned drug addict could take a huge number... I don't know.

[VC2]

See, that's the problem. when people doctor shop, they can get a lot of drugs. My husband was taking multiple pills from multiple doctors. I finally called one doctor and said did you know he's taking this and that, etc...... that doctor never would see him again. My husband was also going to different pharmacies.

some doctors do have ethics. JMO.

Here's the problem with Michael though. If you have pills prescribed in different names, which people were providing to him under their own name, it's a cocktail for death. Which is where we are now.

yes. Problem is though he likely had many under his own name too. Unlike many addicts, MJ did have current and chronic diseases and conditions that caused a legitimate need for painkillers at times. Whether or not he was addicted. The addiction just meant that he needed more of the drug to have the pain killing effect. There is no reason in the world if a doctor sees a patient with chronic back pain and lupus that he would think twice about prescribing a needed pain killer during an outbreak of either of lupus or his back causing severe pain. In no way do i say he needed the numerous prescriptions every time etc. let alone the ones in others names, just saying he had a gray area making it extremely difficult to assume that a prescription was not legitimate unless as i said in anotehr post, same doctor wrote 10 at once for 10 different pain killers.

I really think it is important to remember that he had legitimate pain that called for pain killers throughout his life with 2 chronic auto immune diseases and a chronic bad back.

To often i hear and read about how its terrible he took pain killers. I think its very sad he became addicted to them but am not sure what the answer was the many times he did need them.

[Alibar]

Yes -- I forgot what he called it but it wasn't plastic surgery for what he was doing -- something like collagen treatments.

In an article posted about him, it showed: dermatology and cosmetic surgery. And, of course, the latter covers many treatment types.

[VC2]

Dunlurken... Drugs, Alcohol, death nor devastation could ever change the love I hold in my heart for my children and grandchildren.. "How could he love them"..?? To the best of his ability, I suppose.. even being screwed up all of the time.. Perhaps his daughter followed him around out of fear.. She does seem to be wise beyond her years.. Maybe she was worried about something happening to him.. (throwing an extremely soft pillow, LOL.. because I have always seen you as a very loving and compassionate mother and grandmother.. :wink:

Poochie

the "following him around" came from an attorney and friend who was at the house at the time that CPS was investigating the child abuse allegations. Apparently Paris was very protective of MJ at that time and wanted to be included in conversations between the two or in the room.

I would do the same as a child if people were coming to see if they should take me away from my daddy whom i loved and treated me well and was "the best daddy ever". there is nothing more frightening for a child who is in a happy home than thinking they will be taken from their parents. It can't be hidden from them, the questions cps asks alone will make an intelligent child realize the possibility.

I find nothing unusual in her following him around at that time

IMO

[Poochie Pie]

That's what I think. They wanted his money. I don't know who "they" are. But hopefully, someone will find out.

For some reason, I do hold him somewhat accountable. I get very angry with him for being GONE. Part of the grieving process, I guess. JMO.

RIP Michael. :rose: Totally understandable, Dunlurken.... I felt kinda the same way when my Daddy died.. Devastation, yet a bit of anger at him for leaving me... We must try to remember though, that Michael (much like thousands of people every day) trusted his "Doctors" with his life.... Apparently, a HUGE mistake...

Poochie

[VC2]

Thanks. I also noticed the labels on the drugs had old dates. Looks like MJ did not throw out any meds since they were expired. Saw some with 2001 and 2002 dates on it. There are also scanned pictures from a drug regenerative program explaining detoxification.

he is just like me. I could take a picture of a cookie tin i have on my desk with all my vials of medication in it plus about a hundred different ones loose on the bottom.

I am looking at it now.

I have:
one small drawer (for crafts where you put screws or stuff in it) with loose...
looks like some wellbutrin, some effexor of 2 different dosages, 3 or 4 seroquel, some trazadone, 1 dalmane i have had for five years lmao, blue and white blood pressure meds, metformin, 1 oxazapam, 1 small blue thing that i think is a diuretic from a few years ago, some pepcid bought for a cat 3 years ago.

In bottles i have gravol, apo-k from last year (antibiotic i think), one vial so old that the words have rubbed off in parts but i can read "for insomnia" and 2002 but it doesn't contain that (no lid, just used to put loose pills in), 4 vials of atrovent, 6 of sterile saline which was used 2 years ago along with my oxygen tank and mask and nebulizer for a cat who had a chronic respiratory disease - and my emerg doc said that if they were still sealed when i developed dangerous breathing problems due to a cold this years told me after she released me that if i felt it coming back befre the pharmacy opened i could use them for myself..i was treatedd with atrovent in emerg lol. A vial for apo cepha - antibiotic for goofus from last year, potassium pills from last year, loose thyroid meds from god knows when, amoxicillin from last year, some tiny pink pills i have no clue what they are loose..i did have to check the embossing on ones bck they looked a lot like trazadone which i was looking for and didn't want to take the wrong one.

Most of the loose ones are years old though because i have been on "dispills" where the pharmacy puts my 8 morning meds and my 3 evening meds in 4 weeks worth of dispensing where i open the paper back at each date and take them at once for the last 2 years or so.

I just never want to run out of something plus i am a natural slob. Drives my doctor NUTS when he used to insist i brought in all my meds and i brought the whole tin in, most vials without lids bc i forget to put them on, all the loose pills, in a plastic bag. He was horrified. I EXPLAINED that unless he makes me drag them in, i don't need lids!!! they don't go wandering around the house, they stay sitting on my desk.

He was much happier when i got the dispills. Actually anyone who takes a lot of meds should ask the pharmacy if they ofer that service, they do it for nursing homes etc. which is how i found out. Saw the delivery waiting to go and thought dang i need that!

so yeah i totally understand why he had loads of old meds. I don't think MJ was a whole lot tidier than i am :laugh:

eta and none of that includes the vial of rhovane, the 3 left over tylenol 3, and my 3 puffers as well as a vial of prednisone i never finished when my breathing was bad

So i speak from experience, it does not mean that all drugs are being used when they are found. If i died and a medical investigator came in they probably would immediately think drug interactions until they cut me open.

[who_is_it]

I saw that yesterday..and this is just more evidence that "Sleep Therapy" for MJ has been going on for years!! Tho Dr. Murray didnt initiate his treament back then..he took on a land-mind of problems taking over this therapy...You have to know, Michael was having a problem getting doctor to support his need for this treatment, and had to stoop in order to get this guy, who was vulnerable..in debt and not on firm footing in his business..

<snipped>

LMS

I agree, it's likely other doctors refused to support his need; probably the only one he could find was Dr. Murray.

[VC2]

I saw that yesterday..and this is just more evidence that "Sleep Therapy" for MJ has been going on for years!! Tho Dr. Murray didnt initiate his treament back then..he took on a land-mind of problems taking over this therapy...You have to know, Michael was having a problem getting doctor to support his need for this treatment, and had to stoop in order to get this guy, who was vulnerable..in debt and not on firm footing in his business..

Unfortunately, Mj got what he paid for..I should say overpaid for..incompetent..and negligent..not a good combo when your life is in their hands..IMO

LMS

not so sure lynda. The only evidence we have heard from anyone is that he used the sleep therapy twice. Both times either on tour or getting ready to tour.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen other times, but since i have never heard of a stay in physician with him, and the pattern is he has a physician to monitor, except those two times i suspect thats the only time he used them with maybe an occasional one night exception.

To be honest, as a prescritpion painkiller addict i suspect he much preferred to simply take enough to go to sleep. Since he was not touring he didn't have to worry about being fresh and in his best health possible to do punishing shows or dance routines.

IMO

[MiamiNice1]

Some practical and good advice about interventions for a loved one:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/10/drug.intervention.jackson/index.html

Intervening against an adult's will is complicated, painful

- Janet Jackson reportedly tried to stage an intervention for her brother Michael

- Even family members may become enablers in the life of an addict, experts say

- Don't wait until the person you're concerned about "hits rock bottom"

- In most states treatment for addiction cannot be forced by family members or friends

[CinderL.]

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the central target in both the coroner and LAPD investigations into Michael Jackson's death is Dr. Conrad Murray, who was at Jackson's house when the singer went into full cardiac arrest.

Sources say the doctor is not cooperating with authorities, but they have still found evidence linking him to the drug that may have killed Jackson. As we first reported, as a result of Dr. Murray's second interview with police two weeks ago today, the LAPD obtained a warrant to conduct a second search of Jackson's home -- and that's when they found Propofol, a powerful anesthesia that should never be used outside a hospital. There is evidence Propofol was administered to Jackson shortly before his heart stopped beating.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-drugs-propofol-dr-arnold-lkein/


So, pretty much what we have been saying. I would just add Kline to the mix also. IMO

[Not Telling]

Personally, I think the COD was deferred until toxicology comes back. Let us not forget Diprivan leaves the system almost immediately. without a trace so to speak. JMO.

Diprivan is short acting, but that does not mean that it leaves the system almost immediately and without a trace... The drug must be metabolized through the liver and excreted by the kidneys... Metabolism stops at death... Often times, when drugs are metabolized, they are broken down into metabolites which can be detected..For example: Heroin breaks down into codeine and morphine, codeine breaks down into morphine, cocaine breaks down into benzoylecgonine, Pot (THC) breaks down into 9-carboxy-11-nor-delta-9-THC...

Diprivan can be detected and extracted from postmortem blood, liver, muscles, urine, kidneys, brain, and bile...

[CinderL.]

However, when Dr. write perscriptions, they must have some medical rational for it..especially the controlled substances!! Its obvious his staffers didnt have those medical issues to have them perscribed//

As for Diprivan..yepper..Dr.Murray is in deeep do-doo..even if he didnt prescribe it..he administered it...Bad..Bad thing to do!! I have been mocked for my blaming of Dr. Murray..but I call it the way I see it..as I know what medical ethics are..mean..and He broke alo of RULES!! I am ashamed of him really!

LMS

IMO All of MJ's Dr.'s knew exactly what he was doing. I don't think he went to the local GP and asked for drugs. I think there are specific Dr.s that these "stars" know who to go to. And yes, I think everyone around MJ should be worried.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

not so sure lynda. The only evidence we have heard from anyone is that he used the sleep therapy twice. Both times either on tour or getting ready to tour.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen other times, but since i have never heard of a stay in physician with him, and the pattern is he has a physician to monitor, except those two times i suspect thats the only time he used them with maybe an occasional one night exception.

To be honest, as a prescritpion painkiller addict i suspect he much preferred to simply take enough to go to sleep. Since he was not touring he didn't have to worry about being fresh and in his best health possible to do punishing shows or dance routines.

IMO

VC2...time will tell the tale..and all we can do is deduce certain things from the bits and pieces of info we get...as to 2 times useage..that is not likely..IF the reports of his sclerotic veins, collapsed veins etc..are true..One does not have such things if not used and exposed to either infusions (IV's) or Mainlining drugs...and that is something I personally (professionally) attest to..I work with Auto-Immune Disease patients everyday..and see what happens to their veins over time...My expertise happens to be IV's..the one they go to when unsuccessful attempts by others have made a mess of their veins..

LMS

[CinderL.]

Hi there Athena.. Agree 100% with this entire post... Michael is gone, and to ME, the most unforgiveable act re this Doctor is the fact that he let 30 minutes lapse (maybe even more) before calling 911...!! I will always wonder if MJ could have been saved... The Dr.'s stories.. FGS... "The landline didn't work".. He couldn't find a phone.. He didn't know the ADDRESS... (Where he had been living for almost 2 weeks, of course).... I am just appalled...

Poochie

I think the Dr. found him dead, cleaned up as best he could and then called 911. IMO I don't think he could have been saved.

[Not Telling]

I saw that yesterday..and this is just more evidence that "Sleep Therapy" for MJ has been going on for years!! Tho Dr. Murray didnt initiate his treament back then..he took on a land-mind of problems taking over this therapy...You have to know, Michael was having a problem getting doctor to support his need for this treatment, and had to stoop in order to get this guy, who was vulnerable..in debt and not on firm footing in his business..

Unfortunately, Mj got what he paid for..I should say overpaid for..incompetent..and negligent..not a good combo when your life is in their hands..IMO

LMS

Many assume the rich and famous get the best medical treatment available, but often times, that it is not true... Their wealth enables them to buy what they want, not what is in their best interest... imo

[CinderL.]

Correct, it's not a "controlled" substance because you can't get it any place except in a hospital.

But..... can it be brought in from different countries? aka Bahrain?

Or maybe from a dermatologist who does surgeries in his office???

[MiamiNice1]

Diprivan is short acting, but that does not mean that it leaves the system almost immediately and without a trace... The drug must be metabolized through the liver and excreted by the kidneys... Metabolism stops at death... Often times, when drugs are metabolized, they are broken down into metabolites which can be detected..For example: Heroin breaks down into codeine and morphine, codeine breaks down into morphine, cocaine breaks down into benzoylecgonine, Pot (THC) breaks down into 9-carboxy-11-nor-delta-9-THC...

Diprivan can be detected and extracted from postmortem blood, liver, muscles, urine, kidneys, brain, and bile...
Thanks for breaking this down into laymen's terms, NT. I could actually understand this explanation! :read:

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Has anyone heard the reeason for police to be called to Dr. Kleins off yesterday?..It was reported they had been called out by TMZ..?

http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/

Dr. Arnie Klein Calls the Cops
Posted Jul 10th 2009 4:15PM by TMZ Staff



LMS

[CinderL.]

Your right, Dr. Murray was not Board Certified..I read from a link somewhere, that he had failed his last testing to get his certification..so right there, tells you his capabilities..Also, he did not have any priveleges in California..he could not admit a patient into any hospital..so would always have to either call 911 or get a local physician to admit...The Diprivan had to have been obtained "under the table'..somehow..have no clue..but there is no way he had that drug for any legit purposes...wonder if he will throw whoever supplied him under the bus?..and Yes, this chef person did speak to those pesky Oxygen tanks..and some here even claimed him to be seeking his 15 minutes of fame, no credibility..but to me at the time..it sure fit..and means, the "Sleep Therapy" had been going on for some time..

LMS

I don't think he had privileges anywhere. IIRC

[VC2]

That's what I think. They wanted his money. I don't know who "they" are. But hopefully, someone will find out.

For some reason, I do hold him somewhat accountable. I get very angry with him for being GONE. Part of the grieving process, I guess. JMO.

RIP Michael. :rose:

that is understandable. Anger is normal, i think though from everything even people who aren't close to him have said, he was a good father and i really haven't heard anyone except the guy who was questioned when in jail for robbery say that he was stoned all the time

[CinderL.]

Hi GB - Some may not agree with me but I am tired of hearing these TV news bites about MJ taking 40 Xanax a night. It amazes me that these crooked security guards are the source of this info and Chris Carter in particular is a convicted felon. How did they know how many pills MJ was taking? I find it difficult to believe he took them in front of anyone and most of all I don't trust the source. JMHO

Personally I poo poo most of the info we are hearing until the official coroner's autopsy report is released or explained although I do believe if diprivan is involved again Dr. Murray is up to his eyeballs in this. MOO

They have said 30-40 from before, before his death they said 10. I would think if the security were picking up the pills for him they would know how often he was needing refills.

[who_is_it]

Correct, it's not a "controlled" substance because you can't get it any place except in a hospital.

But..... can it be brought in from different countries? aka Bahrain?

I don't think so. My impression is that the more modern Arabian countries like the UAE or Bahrain have an orthodox attitude towards prescription drugs. What could be legal in the US, could be illegal there (I'm not only talking about the strong anesthesia drug found at MJ's home but also prescription drugs which are legal and quite common in the US).

(Apart from the horrific torture case which became public in May) crime is very rare; sentences are draconian. Foreign workers are deported immediately. I don't know about Bahrain but in the UAE they have 95% foreign workers -- also doctors. It's very unlikely MJ got the drugs from there imo.

[Not Telling]

Thanks for breaking this down into laymen's terms, NT. I could actually understand this explanation! :read:

U R Welcome!

[who_is_it]

I think the Dr. found him dead, cleaned up as best he could and then called 911. IMO I don't think he could have been saved.

I have no idea if he could have been saved... but I think the same like you. Most time the first news is closest to the truth. One of the first news was that MJ had died at home and was dead when the ambulance arrived. Later the lawyer issued a statement he still had a pulse. The autopsy will tell the time of death.

[GoldBug]

Sources say the doctor is not cooperating with authorities, but they have still found evidence linking him to the drug that may have killed Jackson
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-drugs-propofol-dr-arnold-lkein/

[CinderL.]

You are correct that Dr. Murray wasn't board certified but that would not prevent him from practicing. He was licensed (different that board certification) to practice in California, as well as Nevada and Texas. He might not have had hospital privileges but that isn't necessarily an indication of his medical abilities. I think this is more of a question of whether he chose to admit patients to a given hospital and whether he had applied to do so. Probably wasn't very responsible of him not to have done so. Not saying that any of this makes him a good or bad doctor. Just my thoughts and opinions.

Also, the oxygen tanks might have had something to do with his lupus....lung involvement? Or, maybe he suffered from sleep apnea. JMO

I am catching up, but I read the Dr. Murray couldn't even write a prescription in CA. The article said he couldn't give anything stronger than cough syrup.

[GoldBug]

Beware of Debbie Rowe

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/debbie-rowe-michael-jackson-custody-children/

[VC2]

VC2...time will tell the tale..and all we can do is deduce certain things from the bits and pieces of info we get...as to 2 times useage..that is not likely..IF the reports of his sclerotic veins, collapsed veins etc..are true..One does not have such things if not used and exposed to either infusions (IV's) or Mainlining drugs...and that is something I personally (professionally) attest to..I work with Auto-Immune Disease patients everyday..and see what happens to their veins over time...My expertise happens to be IV's..the one they go to when unsuccessful attempts by others have made a mess of their veins..

LMS

Oh i don't doubt he may have had issues iwth his veins, he apparently was a big baby about pain (understandable) and insisted on a general for minor surgeries let alone all the ones he would have had during the fire and plastic surgeries, let alone times he may have needed IV's for his auto immune diseases. As you say, it can make a mess of their veins. I am just not so sure it was due to lots of sleep therapy as opposed to disastrous amounts of plastic surgeries plus his need for a general if its minor surgery and other times.

One question..I heard an ER doc on cnn say that the news of collapsed veins in his arms may be due to IV's but it also could be due simply to the cardiac arrest. That if CPR was not attempted immediately or his arrest was not noticed right away that since the thing that keeps veins open is blood pumping through them, without the blood pumping its quite possible that his death itself collapsed the veins, they do see it at autopsies quite often.

Does that make sense to you? It does to me from a laymans perspective, especially given the concept of lividity, the blood pooling to the bottom of the body.

I just do not necessarily believe that the doctor noticed him dead right away (he said he left the room) or did cpr immediately witht he 30 minute delay. In fact if he knew he was dead dead (i.e no hope) he might have taken time to hide away things before he did his "cpr".

IMO

[who_is_it]

I said days ago, Klein's LKL interview was self serving. He's on my Ick Meter at the top. Morally and ethically as friends or Dr.'s they failed him. Whoever was the 1st so called dr. that allowed this the 1st time should be punished. How could any real dr./ anthesialgist attempt this ever outside a hospital...$ha $hing. Friend my a$$.

Since weeks -- even before he spoke out -- he's my suspect #1. I don't trust the words of this man.

Moreover it remains unclear to me why he offered to do a dna test. I don't believe what some posters think he just wants to put the rumor to rest. If he donated sperm to a sperm bank the coincidence his sperm was used to inseminate DR converges to zero. Maybe he IS the biological father, himself WANTS a dna test and now -- as the (wealthy) legal, loving father is dead -- becomes interested in MJ's kids.

[CinderL.]

Hi Ciinder :)

The pills that were confiscated showed most of them expired. I still don't trust the source of the information. JMO


Weren't the pictures of the pills from Neverland? I am :confused: Oh and hi. :smile:

[GoldBug]

Dr. Alex Farshchian wrote Michael Jackson a letter -- dated July 21, 2002 -- in which he writes, "Buprinex (sic) is the potent narcotic I told you about last week. It is just like the D but better." Buprenex is an injectable narcotic painkiller.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/jackson-doc-offers-potent-narcotic-solution/

[Lyndawitha"Y]

"Officers were called to the Beverly Hills office by staff members requesting police protection.

According to police Lt. Tony Lee, Klein's office was receiving harassing phone calls.

Lee says the calls are not threatening, but rather 'suspicious in nature.'

He would not elaborate."

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-klein-calls,0,5360263.story

Thanks Athena..I was wondering..thats all..Maybe his office is being beseiged by MJ fans..who knows?

LMS

[who_is_it]

Sources say the doctor is not cooperating with authorities, but they have still found evidence linking him to the drug that may have killed Jackson
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-drugs-propofol-dr-arnold-lkein/

MJ was soooooooooo often in his office. I don't think he's stupid and always knew he would be suspect #1. IF he has something to do with the prescriptions he would have used an indirect distribution channel imo.

[Mnchkin426]

I am catching up, but I read the Dr. Murray couldn't even write a prescription in CA. The article said he couldn't give anything stronger than cough syrup.

He didn't have a narcotics license in CA. It was strong cough syrup that the article mentioned.....that would be a narcotic. He could write prescriptions for other drugs since he was licensed to practice medicine in CA.

[VC2]

Some practical and good advice about interventions for a loved one:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/10/drug.intervention.jackson/index.html

Intervening against an adult's will is complicated, painful

- Janet Jackson reportedly tried to stage an intervention for her brother Michael

- Even family members may become enablers in the life of an addict, experts say

- Don't wait until the person you're concerned about "hits rock bottom"

- In most states treatment for addiction cannot be forced by family members or friends

I find the last one infuriating. I am all for individual rights but IF the person is unable to get clean enough for long enough to make a knowledgeable decision about whether or not they want to get help, imo it is INSANE to think they can or to expect them to. At that point the state should at least allow a 7 day commitment if only to allow a medically supervised withdrawal and then help of a therapist to decide if they want to take advantage of rehab. The nature of the disease itself makes it so hard for people to decide to get help, its full of rationalizations, fear, a believe that they are functioning perfectly in direct contradiction of the facts.

As far as someone getting help when able to make the choice, just see the amount of patients who go from a hospital OD into rehab. It does not always work but the fact they are in a clinical setting and not able to stay high often allows them to decide to get help..especially since they are supported then by family and therapists in hospital. Essentially though they have been involuntarily hospitalized and then go for help.

If someone is so badly off they need intervention there should be a procedure that does allow family or friends to force them to make the choice while reasonably clear headed and able to decide. It would save a few lives IMO

[who_is_it]

Dr. Alex Farshchian wrote Michael Jackson a letter -- dated July 21, 2002 -- in which he writes, "Buprinex (sic) is the potent narcotic I told you about last week. It is just like the D but better." Buprenex is an injectable narcotic painkiller.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/jackson-doc-offers-potent-narcotic-solution/

Did you Michael Jackson stayed in a converted garage at Farshchian's house?
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/jacksons-knack-for-picking-friendly-docs/

[Eagleeye]

Correct, it's not a "controlled" substance because you can't get it any place except in a hospital.

But..... can it be brought in from different countries? aka Bahrain?

I don't know about Bahrain, but I just got off the phone with my Pharmacist. He said he knows of no pharmacy in the County I live in that stocks Diprivan or Propofol with the sole exception of the Hospital Pharmacies to be dispensed only to the surgical suites or to clinics i.e Oral Surgeons and Cosmetic Surgeons that have the equipment to monitor a patient. He said in the forty years he has been dispensing meds, he has never seen a Doctor of any kind that has prescribed either of those two meds to an individual for home use. He said he would have to take into consideration the ethics of a Doctor that would do that.

[who_is_it]

I find the last one infuriating. I am all for individual rights but IF the person is unable to get clean enough for long enough to make a knowledgeable decision about whether or not they want to get help, imo it is INSANE to think they can or to expect them to. At that point the state should at least allow a 7 day commitment if only to allow a medically supervised withdrawal and then help of a therapist to decide if they want to take advantage of rehab. The nature of the disease itself makes it so hard for people to decide to get help, its full of rationalizations, fear, a believe that they are functioning perfectly in direct contradiction of the facts.

<snipped>

IMO

That's correct, it's the nature of the disease that addicts say that they are not addicted -- not only addicts to drugs but also to alcohol.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Oh i don't doubt he may have had issues iwth his veins, he apparently was a big baby about pain (understandable) and insisted on a general for minor surgeries let alone all the ones he would have had during the fire and plastic surgeries, let alone times he may have needed IV's for his auto immune diseases. As you say, it can make a mess of their veins. I am just not so sure it was due to lots of sleep therapy as opposed to disastrous amounts of plastic surgeries plus his need for a general if its minor surgery and other times.

One question..I heard an ER doc on cnn say that the news of collapsed veins in his arms may be due to IV's but it also could be due simply to the cardiac arrest. That if CPR was not attempted immediately or his arrest was not noticed right away that since the thing that keeps veins open is blood pumping through them, without the blood pumping its quite possible that his death itself collapsed the veins, they do see it at autopsies quite often.
Does that make sense to you? It does to me from a laymans perspective, especially given the concept of lividity, the blood pooling to the bottom of the body.

I just do not necessarily believe that the doctor noticed him dead right away (he said he left the room) or did cpr immediately witht he 30 minute delay. In fact if he knew he was dead dead (i.e no hope) he might have taken time to hide away things before he did his "cpr".

IMO

My bolding to answer..

Of course if the old heart isnt pumping, the cardiovascular system collapses..but if that is all it was..one would not SEE those veins as a purplish color..denoting damage...Damaged or sclerotic veins are visible more so when circulation is intact..however at death, they remain visible..and healthy veins disappear...Hope I have differentiated well enough to see the difference..

LMS

[tisamystery]

The report (by a guard?) that he was taking up to 30-40 a day was probably exagerrated at the time for effect. And who knows if any of those were placebos?

It's also occurred to me that Debbie Rowe may not know who the father is. If it was aritificial insemination, they may have told her it was Michael's but I'm sure when she saw the children she knew they weren't. Still, she may not know for sure.

Klein's "not that I'm aware of" was simply (a) yes, but you can't prove it or (b) no, but I'm enjoying the attention so I'll keep you guessing. Of course, it can be proven through DNA testing. His latter comment (wish I could quote it) sounded like he has some confidentiality agreement and couldn't divulge it anyway.

Consider that, if Klein is the bio dad, those poor kids have not only lost the only dad they have known but that their bio dad may have killed him. Just tragic.

[jewel6]

I believe what is clear here is that MJ was had severe, chronic pain. :(

I beleive so too. lupus and probally arthritis on top of it. lupus is very debilitating. He probally had depression on top of that. jmo

[Not Telling]

I have no idea if he could have been saved... but I think the same like you. Most time the first news is closest to the truth. One of the first news was that MJ had died at home and was dead when the ambulance arrived. Later the lawyer issued a statement he still had a pulse. The autopsy will tell the time of death.

Determining the actual time of death is not precise, and certainly not accurate to within less than an hour... Since they were doing CPR which restores circulation, the time it was discontinued and he was pronounced dead will most likely be the official time of death... jmo

[who_is_it]

Determining the actual time of death is not precise, and certainly not accurate to within less than an hour... Since they were doing CPR which restores circulation, the time it was discontinued and he was pronounced dead will most likely be the official time of death... jmo

Thank you. I didn't know.

[Mnchkin426]

--------------

Regardless, i still think the children would be better off with her rather than the Jacksons. Joe Jackson will be in the picture......not a good thing. JMO JMO JMO

I understand your concerns about the Jacksons but I'm interested as to why you think the children would be better off with Debbie Rowe? What characteristics does she have that would make her a good guardian? TIA

[who_is_it]

I would like to know if Dr. Kline knew anything about Dr. Murry and also if Kline or any other doc besides Murry planed on going on tour with MJ. I am also curious if any of the MJ docs were also treating and/or prescribing meds to any of of the people in Michael`s inner circle.

<snipped>

Dr. Kline was no doubt in shock when he first heard MJ had died. Even so, I still wonder what exactly he was doing for the 5 hrs he said he was sitting at his desk frozen after hearing the news. I am somewhat suspicious of him and his interviews answered many questions I had but also created many more.

I don't know but think Dr. Klein wouldn't have gone on tour with MJ. TMZ once called him the "dermatologist of the stars". Probably it wouldn't have been profitable enough to be MJ's personal doctor on his tour.

[MiamiNice1]

I find the last one infuriating. I am all for individual rights but IF the person is unable to get clean enough for long enough to make a knowledgeable decision about whether or not they want to get help, imo it is INSANE to think they can or to expect them to. At that point the state should at least allow a 7 day commitment if only to allow a medically supervised withdrawal and then help of a therapist to decide if they want to take advantage of rehab. The nature of the disease itself makes it so hard for people to decide to get help, its full of rationalizations, fear, a believe that they are functioning perfectly in direct contradiction of the facts.

As far as someone getting help when able to make the choice, just see the amount of patients who go from a hospital OD into rehab. It does not always work but the fact they are in a clinical setting and not able to stay high often allows them to decide to get help..especially since they are supported then by family and therapists in hospital. Essentially though they have been involuntarily hospitalized and then go for help.

If someone is so badly off they need intervention there should be a procedure that does allow family or friends to force them to make the choice while reasonably clear headed and able to decide. It would save a few lives IMO

You know, what you say makes sense.......kinda like doing a "Baker Act" (in Florida - mandatory commitment up to 3 days for psychiatric evaluation) on someone who so desperately needs the help!

Something interesting - I actually spoke to Jeff VanVonderen, the guy who heads the A&E Program of "Intervention." He told me the following, which could explain why they do not have a "mandatory type" commitment on the books:

Jeff VanVonderen told me that by the time an Intervention is planned and the person (addict) confronted - he said, "98% will agree to go to treatment." He gave me a couple of seemingly "hopeless" situations that he had encountered and said that amazingly, they are ready to go. So that is encouraging.

imo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The report of Injection sites in MJ's neck IF true..lead me to believe that they were done by Dr. Murray..as He likely couldnt find a paripheral vein..so went to what he should know how to do..and that is to access the Internal Jugluar Vein ( usually accessed in ER or ICU units) for central lines done using special catheters ( monitoring can be done) as well..OR the benign reason would be it was done during the resuscitation process when MJ was brought to the ER..Who knows?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_venous_catheter

http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/

Injection Marks on Jackson's Neck
Posted Jul 10th 2009 11:41AM by TMZ Staff


LMS

[Not Telling]

I need evidence, not what some guy said on tv to the media. What were the mls. of the pills? Dr. could have wrote 60 .5ml. if he took 30, that's only 15 ml to him. That would knock me out.

You mean mg. not ml. don't you?

Xanax comes in 0.25, 0.5, 1 or 2 mg tablets...

[Not Telling]

Thank you. I didn't know.

U R Welcome!

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I would like to know if Dr. Kline knew anything about Dr. Murry and also if Kline or any other doc besides Murry planed on going on tour with MJ. I am also curious if any of the MJ docs were also treating and/or prescribing meds to any of of the people in Michael`s inner circle.

Medical Questions: Does anyone know if an injection site with a regular needle looks any different than one made for an IV line??? I would imagine there would be a residue left on the skin from the tape they use to keep the line in place. Do they always use tape for this??
Dr. Kline was no doubt in shock when he first heard MJ had died. Even so, I still wonder what exactly he was doing for the 5 hrs he said he was sitting at his desk frozen after hearing the news. I am somewhat suspicious of him and his interviews answered many questions I had but also created many more.

Bolding to answer~~

If injection is IM (intramuscular) or SC ( subcutaneous).. an in and out timeframe and there will be a very small site..it all depends on the injector (person giving it) and the fluid being injected...Now..IV sites usually are more obvious because it is yes secured (taped/Tegaderm) to support the cannula, connection to IV tubing...However..once again that site could become swollen, bruised if not removed properly and tamponaded ( pressure)..I have had people come back and say..you bandaided the wrong hole..LOL..that's how hard it is to see....

LMS:blushing:

[Eagleeye]

I

Medical Questions: Does anyone know if an injection site with a regular needle looks any different than one made for an IV line??? I would imagine there would be a residue left on the skin from the tape they use to keep the line in place. Do they always use tape for this??

In all my exprience of inserting IV's, we always used tape to secure the needle. There could very well be residue from the tape. If it is a picc line IV the there is a lot of tape. I don't know if MJ had a picc line or not but that would show up for sure as it is a much larger insertion area. They usually leave a small scar on the skin after they are removed. With a picc line in, you can go home and resume normal activity. If you are squeamish, don't watch this. BTW, the picc line is used for long term IV therapy as well as other medications that need to be administered for longer periods of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNiLZ8251mo

[Calla]

I understand your concerns about the Jacksons but I'm interested as to why you think the children would be better off with Debbie Rowe? What characteristics does she have that would make her a good guardian? TIA

Jumping in on this one, uninvited..lol

Just want to say my piece on it.

I do not think they would be better off with Debbie Rowe. If they grow older and choose a relationship with her that would be understandable.
However, from all I have read, she sold them, twice, stated herself that she has not been a mother to them, rarely ever saw them, and really had no need to.

It is a bit far fetched IMO to think that Joe Jackson is going to "beat" those kids. It is just a stretch for me. Sure, he wasn't the kindest and maybe I could even be a little more judgmental and cruel about what he was like. But to make the leap of saying the kids are in danger, as so many have, just isn't sensible to me.
When Joe Jackson was interviewed & responded regarding the kids going into show business, and saying "they say Blanket can dance"..he was asked something along the lines of... if they would or could go into show business. It was a media ploy to get that subject out there and create more drama imo.
The interviewers know they are dealing with someone who may not be the brightest bulb in the box. I don't have info on his education, it is just my opinion, but I do know that if the paper scribbled about a substitute for Demerol that some media outlet have put out was written by MJ , as has been implied, he could not spell very well.

Let me add, I don't care if they are all illiterate. Doesn't take away from what they accomplished. As long as I can decipher it and get the point, I don't care about grammar or spelling.

I am curious though, as to whether Debbie Rowe only comes out of the woodwork when she is short on funds. I also think she hurt herself with her vulgarity in the face of photographers recently. IMO cursing can be a form of child abuse in the grand scheme of things. The anger that sometimes accompanies that language can be very frightening for children

[Not Telling]

lol, yes mg.:w00t:TY

:wink: :smile:

[Calla]

RE: custody of the children

I personally believe that KJ should retain custody with Grace in the picture (to negate the age) and DR should have visitation so the children can get to know her and vice versa. Upon KJ's passing, DR to get custody if the children agree. I also hope the court gives weight to the two older childrens' choice. Should the children desire to know who their bio father was they can actually join a national registry when they become of age but the decision should be left entirely up to them not the public because of a "curiosity" to know. JMHO

I mostly agree, except for the "public curiosity to know" part.:laugh:

I think Blanket looks like Christian Brando, Miko's late brother, (who I adored) :biggrin:

[VC2]

totally O/T but i just tried this amazing recipe for anyone who likes spicy things.. great on top of burgers.

Sugared Jalapenos
http://www.recipezaar.com/sugared-jalapenos-364662

[Eagleeye]

Thanks so much Eagleeye. You know I also wonder about the state of MJ`s eyes when Murry was working on him. I am wondering about the term, "fixed and dilated". Docs always seem to routinely check the eyes, yet on the 911 tape there is no mention of anything like that.

If he was already cold to the touch when the medics arrived, does that mean he was dead? If it does mean that, should his eyes have been open? I know in the last pic they are closed and that got me wondering.

Also I have heard both that Murry did ride with him in the ambulance and that he did not. Does anyone know for sure if he did? Jesse J. has said he did not. He seems to be on the inside w/ the family so I wonder if he is right.

I am sure I could get argument both ways on this. I have seen people die with thier eyes wide open, partially closed or completely closed. If you are asleep or comatose with your eyes closed, they will probably stay that way. If the body was cold to the touch there is a fair chance that he was dead when the medics arrived. My personal belief is that he died almost instantly from a severe overdose of something which caused heart failure. There from what I have read is a two hour window from around 11 to 1 that seems to be unaccounted for. I believe that he was dead long before the Dr. found him. IMO

[VC2]

Bolding to answer~~

If injection is IM (intramuscular) or SC ( subcutaneous).. an in and out timeframe and there will be a very small site..it all depends on the injector (person giving it) and the fluid being injected...Now..IV sites usually are more obvious because it is yes secured (taped/Tegaderm) to support the cannula, connection to IV tubing...However..once again that site could become swollen, bruised if not removed properly and tamponaded ( pressure)..I have had people come back and say..you bandaided the wrong hole..LOL..that's how hard it is to see....

LMS:blushing:

I scream so loudly when they stick a needle in me for anything including standard blood tests that i have caused a waiting room full of children to be hysterical at the lab. (now i warn them to close the door lol). However the absolute worst pain from needles in the arm imo comes from the band aids. It is so bad i cannot remove them myself, i have to go to a walk in clinic to get someone to rip it off me :blushing: Now i refuse to allow them to put a bandaid on the hole. I don't care if i am bleeding on a white silk blouse, nothing is worth the fear/pain of removing a bandaid stuck on your arm. and anyone who says it doesn't hurt is lying!

The other thing that hurts the most is when they use butterfly needles! That stupid tube on the butterfly needles wiggles and then the needle wiggles inside you! Umm Lynda, it sounds like you are expert with IV's and needles, you don't work in Ottawa by any chance do you?? *looks hopefully*

MJ probably had lots of IV's if he was as afraid of needles and pain as reported. I would if i could afford it and needed more than 1 medication or if i needed an injection two or 3 days in a row. Then it makes sense ot have a port in the arm so you only get stuck once!

[VC2]

You know, what you say makes sense.......kinda like doing a "Baker Act" (in Florida - mandatory commitment up to 3 days for psychiatric evaluation) on someone who so desperately needs the help!

Something interesting - I actually spoke to Jeff VanVonderen, the guy who heads the A&E Program of "Intervention." He told me the following, which could explain why they do not have a "mandatory type" commitment on the books:

Jeff VanVonderen told me that by the time an Intervention is planned and the person (addict) confronted - he said, "98% will agree to go to treatment." He gave me a couple of seemingly "hopeless" situations that he had encountered and said that amazingly, they are ready to go. So that is encouraging.

imo

yes it is, but you know most people don't even realize how to stage an effective intervention. Others may have just one friend left, or family who don't have the education etc.

I still believe that any serious addict is a harm to himself or others. That intself should allow an involuntary commitment to see if they can intervene there.

Also ..many interventions are done by ppl who can afford private clinics, while some of the ones who need it most will have no choice but to go through the state.

[VC2]

The report of Injection sites in MJ's neck IF true..lead me to believe that they were done by Dr. Murray..as He likely couldnt find a paripheral vein..so went to what he should know how to do..and that is to access the Internal Jugluar Vein ( usually accessed in ER or ICU units) for central lines done using special catheters ( monitoring can be done) as well..OR the benign reason would be it was done during the resuscitation process when MJ was brought to the ER..Who knows?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_venous_catheter

http://www.tmz.com/category/michael-jackson/

Injection Marks on Jackson's Neck
Posted Jul 10th 2009 11:41AM by TMZ Staff


LMS

wouldn't that be awfully dangerous in that situation? Since it stops acting so quickly and if Murray was going off out of the room for a few minutes at a time (which iirc he said) MJ could wake up - surely murray wasn't allowing it to infuse without him there - and turn his head putting the needle right through the vein and perhaps into the carotid artery or other areas. Since its such a painful medication to get needing lidocaine the femoral or some other choices would make more sense imo.

the injection holes in the neck could be local anaesthetics for the rebuilding of his chin/jaw too couldn't it, and perhaps actual treatment to build up his neck to match the building up of his chin and jaw?

[Calla]

Last night for the first time, i sat down to watch the Martin Bashir interview he did with MJ. OMG.............i almost fell out of my chair when MJ said that as soon as the umbiblical cord to Paris was cut, he (MJ) snatched the baby up, put her in a blanket and took her home.......with the placenta still on the baby. He said he cleaned the baby when he got home. OMG who, in their right mind would do this?

Not only that, but Debbie said in an interview that she was in a different house afterwards and he called to check to see that she was ok...and she was fine with it because it was his child...

[Mnchkin426]

Hey Bubbles -
Could you please answer me about your reasons for thinking Debbie Rowe is the best choice for a guardian for MJ's children. Know you said it was just your opinion but would really like to understand how you came to think that. Thanks.

[Tokyo Rose]

I believe what is clear here is that MJ was had severe, chronic pain. :(

Here is where we differ. I think he was a full blown addict for a very long time. Addicts give themselves numerous aches and pains to get the medication. They will claim illnesses also and in MJ's case had doctors to cover for him. He had enough money for that. No one has seen his medical records. Nothing was said in the autopsy he had any physical problems. He didn't die a natural death, so the only thing left is drugs.

jmo

[Calla]

May I ask again, how many times does Debbie get to be paid off for her children?

The nanny , Grace, had been in contact with KJ from what I have read and I think they are going to be fine where they are

[Tokyo Rose]

Hey Bubbles -
Could you please answer me about your reasons for thinking Debbie Rowe is the best choice for a guardian for MJ's children. Know you said it was just your opinion but would really like to understand how you came to think that. Thanks.

I don't think either choice is that good and do feel sorry for those children. jmo

[Eagleeye]

wouldn't that be awfully dangerous in that situation? Since it stops acting so quickly and if Murray was going off out of the room for a few minutes at a time (which iirc he said) MJ could wake up - surely murray wasn't allowing it to infuse without him there - and turn his head putting the needle right through the vein and perhaps into the carotid artery or other areas. Since its such a painful medication to get needing lidocaine the femoral or some other choices would make more sense imo.

the injection holes in the neck could be local anaesthetics for the rebuilding of his chin/jaw too couldn't it, and perhaps actual treatment to build up his neck to match the building up of his chin and jaw?

Very unlikely (bolding by me). That would have been a lengthy process and not done under local anesthetic. MJ wanted to be uncocnscience for these procedures. If they were going to do it under a local they would have blocked the mandibular nerves in the back of his jaw through his mouth. I doubt if he could have standed that. It is quite painful. The only reason to use a vein in the neck is if they can't find a suitable one in the arms or legs. IMO

[Mnchkin426]

Here is where we differ. I think he was a full blown addict for a very long time. Addicts give themselves numerous aches and pains to get the medication. They will claim illnesses also and in MJ's case had doctors to cover for him. He had enough money for that. No one has seen his medical records. Nothing was said in the autopsy he had any physical problems. He didn't die a natural death, so the only thing left is drugs.

jmo

No one here has seen his medical records but it sounds like the coroner's office is looking at them. Also, no official coroner's report has been published as of yet since it isn't complete. Consequently, we have no idea what was or wasn't found, or reported in it. Think you are jumping the gun. JMO

[Cardinal]

Here is where we differ. I think he was a full blown addict for a very long time. Addicts give themselves numerous aches and pains to get the medication. They will claim illnesses also and in MJ's case had doctors to cover for him. He had enough money for that. No one has seen his medical records. Nothing was said in the autopsy he had any physical problems. He didn't die a natural death, so the only thing left is drugs.

jmo

I didn't realize the autopsy report had been published. Do you have a link to it?

I have, however, seen the death certificate, and the manner of death isn't indicated. So how can you say he didn't die a natural death?

[Tokyo Rose]

May I ask again, how many times does Debbie get to be paid off for her children?

The nanny , Grace, had been in contact with KJ from what I have read and I think they are going to be fine where they are


She's still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement. JMO

I wouldn't put so much hope for those children in a nanny. After all, it is just a nanny.

My concern is the number of people living in the Encino house. I read on AC360 the other night backgrounds on the siblings. It seems Jermaine and his nine kids live there. So with the grandma and his nine kids and MJ's three kids along with Jermaine, and Joe visiting and staying sometimes, that's 15 people.

I'm betting Joe will be visiting much more now too. That Encino house probably isn't big enough for everyone and no room for the nanny probably.

The grandma went out and bought the kids toys and sleeping bags right away. Now I know why.

JMO

[Mnchkin426]

----------------------

In my opinion, anyone is better than the jacksons. I honestly think a child is better off with the mother. I dont know for sure.......but i have not heard anything about DR doing drugs. now that i answered, take it for being MOO.

I already did take it for being MOO. Guess I was hoping for something more than an anti-Jackson opinion. Thanks anyway.

[Tokyo Rose]

I already did take it for being MOO. Guess I was hoping for something more than an anti-Jackson opinion. Thanks anyway.

Read my post to Calla.

[bkwits]

I don't think either choice is that good and do feel sorry for those children. jmo

I agree with you Rose. I don't know that she is the best choice, but I believe that Rowe will get custoday of the older two if she goes to court. IMO. She may relinquish custody. I am afraid for them to end up with Joe. Rebbie or Janet may be a better choice.

IMO

[Tokyo Rose]

I agree he was no doubt an addict for a long time. But as far as the pain, there may be one aspect to it he was not faking and that was the Lupus. Still even that does not account for the major prescriptions we are hearing about. I also think psychologically the Lupus took a toll on him on top of his other stresses and demons in his life.

I have to wonder if perhaps he was turning to the propoal (sp) drug as a kind of lesser of 2 evils. As long as he was under perhaps it meant he was doing less of the other drugs and was able to somewhat get his act together for the tour. Just a thought. I am not saying it is right and
we all know there are those who had warned him of its dangers, so they say. Yet it sounds like that is what he made the choice to do and basically in the process left his children as orphans. Sad!

I wonder if Lupus showed up in the autopsy. I would think it would.jmo

[who_is_it]

Very unlikely (bolding by me). That would have been a lengthy process and not done under local anesthetic. MJ wanted to be uncocnscience for these procedures. If they were going to do it under a local they would have blocked the mandibular nerves in the back of his jaw through his mouth. I doubt if he could have standed that. It is quite painful. The only reason to use a vein in the neck is if they can't find a suitable one in the arms or legs. IMO

Don't want to say this is the case with MJ* but I've seen in a movie that heroin addicts use veins in the neck if they have too many scars in their arms.

(*to avoid wrong conclusions)

[Mnchkin426]

---------------

thats why i was reluctant to answer u. i knew u would come back with a remark like that.

You couldn't possibly know anything of the sort since I have never expressed any sort of opinion about the future of the children?

[Tokyo Rose]

I sincerely thought the people posting on the MJ board would be familiar with the most basic elements of his history. He was in a Pepsi commercial; he had scalp burns, required 3 surgeries on his scalp and broke the 1st vertebrate in his back. That is what started the prescription drugs for pain. Since then he has developed Lupus and vitiligo. Lupus itself is extremely painful and the vitiligo affects you psychologically thus the need for anti-depressants.

I suggest you at least become familiar with the well-known documented issues over the years. :rolleyes:

Millions of Americans get addicted to prescription drugs from a legitimate medical reason. It does not just happen to celebrities. It is the #1 health crisis in America.

Many entertainers get addicted to drugs. They need to sleep and then they need to wake up and it gets worse and worse.

I think the burned scalp issue has been milked long enough as the start of his addiction. Many people suffer bad burns and major complications and don't end up like him.

jmo

[Calla]

She's still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement. JMO

I wouldn't put so much hope for those children in a nanny. After all, it is just a nanny.

My concern is the number of people living in the Encino house. I read on AC360 the other night backgrounds on the siblings. It seems Jermaine and his nine kids live there. So with the grandma and his nine kids and MJ's three kids along with Jermaine, and Joe visiting and staying sometimes, that's 15 people.

I'm betting Joe will be visiting much more now too. That Encino house probably isn't big enough for everyone and no room for the nanny probably.

The grandma went out and bought the kids toys and sleeping bags right away. Now I know why.

JMO

Well the "nanny" was supposedly with MJ for 17 years ...off and on...and the stand in mother figure for the kids, so I think she needs to play a role. I don't know how reliable media reports are...but I also read that MJ fired her because she questioned him on some things..
Wondering about that
I don't have any concerns about the number of people in the house.
But that's just me.
The Duggars had more than that in a small house at one time ..lol

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I scream so loudly when they stick a needle in me for anything including standard blood tests that i have caused a waiting room full of children to be hysterical at the lab. (now i warn them to close the door lol). However the absolute worst pain from needles in the arm imo comes from the band aids. It is so bad i cannot remove them myself, i have to go to a walk in clinic to get someone to rip it off me :blushing: Now i refuse to allow them to put a bandaid on the hole. I don't care if i am bleeding on a white silk blouse, nothing is worth the fear/pain of removing a bandaid stuck on your arm. and anyone who says it doesn't hurt is lying!

The other thing that hurts the most is when they use butterfly needles! That stupid tube on the butterfly needles wiggles and then the needle wiggles inside you! Umm Lynda, it sounds like you are expert with IV's and needles, you don't work in Ottawa by any chance do you?? *looks hopefully*

MJ probably had lots of IV's if he was as afraid of needles and pain as reported. I would if i could afford it and needed more than 1 medication or if i needed an injection two or 3 days in a row. Then it makes sense ot have a port in the arm so you only get stuck once!

Oh Goodness VC2..No, I dont work in Ottawa..but Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington/Hamilton ON..outside west of Toronto..Can I make a suggestion to you??? If you are so sensitive to needles and skin sensitivity..before you go for any tests..put some emla cream on the area..about 20 minutes before venapuncture..it deadens, numbs the area...It's Over the counter cream ( is exspensive $35-45$ a tube)..but is very beneficial for peeps like you..Jus..a sec will look up that magic cream..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidocaine/prilocaine

Sorry for OT..just trying to be helpful VC..

LMS:laugh:

[bkwits]

Does anyone know how Michael's children were being educated? I heard him say in one interview (can't remember which one) that he was educating the children. I don't know if he meant that he personally was the teacher or what. Michael has stated that he never went to school. Given that Joe pushed them to perform, perform, perform, was Michael well-educated?

IMO

[VC2]

May I ask again, how many times does Debbie get to be paid off for her children?

The nanny , Grace, had been in contact with KJ from what I have read and I think they are going to be fine where they are

Grace was at the memorial and the funeral lunch-she was quoted saying something nice about the kids at the lunch, i believe she is not just in touch with KJ but staying at the encino compound IMO.

Grace is not "just a nanny". She has essentially been their mother for their whole life. IF you consider a mother the woman who loves them, who dries their tears, kisses booboos better, dresses them, takes care of their daily needs and brings them up.

She was the one female figure in their lives from the moment of birth until now. She lived with them, she cared for them. Yes i know old tom tom fired her twice but sure doesn't seem to have been for long. The only time seems to have been the few months just before MJ's death, at which point there was a lot going on and nothing said she was not seeing them those months in london.

I thik to call her "just a nanny" as tokyo did is far underestimating not only her impact on the children but their relationship. She may have been paid for her job as a nanny but that doesn't mean the emotional relationship was any different than a moms was.

IMO

[who_is_it]

<snipped>

Millions of Americans get addicted to prescription drugs from a legitimate medical reason. It does not just happen to celebrities. It is the #1 health crisis in America.

In my country it's very common that prescription drugs are given to "street addicts" as substitutes. Is this the case in the US, too?

There's a big black market for legally prescribed drugs. Quite often "street addicts" don't die of illegal drugs but of a cocktail of prescription drugs or also a combination of alcohol and benzodiazepine. "No one" cares, "no one" blames the docs. If they die it's just like "another addict has died".

How should the health system handle it? "Street addicts" should get it as a substitute, others not? Who should or even MUST get the drug and under which circumstances it's a crime? Where to draw the line?

[who_is_it]

Does anyone know how Michael's children were being educated? I heard him say in one interview (can't remember which one) that he was educating the children. I don't know if he meant that he personally was the teacher or what. Michael has stated that he never went to school. Given that Joe pushed them to perform, perform, perform, was Michael well-educated?

IMO

Michael Jackson's kids were home schooled.

[GoldBug]

----------------------

In my opinion, anyone is better than the jacksons. I honestly think a child is better off with the mother. I dont know for sure.......but i have not heard anything about DR doing drugs. now that i answered, take it for being MOO.

IMO, Debbie is only using Michaels kids for money. When she looks at those 2 adorable faces all she sees are dollar signs

[Cardinal]

She's still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement. JMO

I wouldn't put so much hope for those children in a nanny. After all, it is just a nanny.

My concern is the number of people living in the Encino house. I read on AC360 the other night backgrounds on the siblings. It seems Jermaine and his nine kids live there. So with the grandma and his nine kids and MJ's three kids along with Jermaine, and Joe visiting and staying sometimes, that's 15 people.

I'm betting Joe will be visiting much more now too. That Encino house probably isn't big enough for everyone and no room for the nanny probably.

The grandma went out and bought the kids toys and sleeping bags right away. Now I know why.

JMO

http://www.trulia.com/homes/California/Encino/sold/3620790-4641-Hayvenhurst-Ave-Encino-CA-91436

I know why, too. All of the children and grandchildren were coming home for MJ's funeral, and even in a 10,000+ SF house (5BRs and 7 baths), the younger kids probably slept in sleeping bags. And probably thought nothing of it.

Btw, there are many large families who manage just fine in a house with considerably less than 10,000+ SF.

[Tokyo Rose]

You have a link to the above? except the shopping. I know she went to Target. Link to pics of the Jackson compound?

I said the Encino house PROBABLY isn't big enough for all those people. Link to what pictures?

[Mnchkin426]

I wonder if Lupus showed up in the autopsy. I would think it would.jmo

Lupus can attack any of the major organs (heart, lung, kidney, brain etc.), so it seems to me it could very well show up on autopsy. Not sure what signs past activity would leave, though, or if he would have to have been having a flare at the time of his death. Will ask Rheumatologist husband when he returns home. JMO

[who_is_it]

Well the "nanny" was supposedly with MJ for 17 years ...off and on...and the stand in mother figure for the kids, so I think she needs to play a role. I don't know how reliable media reports are...but I also read that MJ fired her because she questioned him on some things..
Wondering about that
I don't have any concerns about the number of people in the house.
But that's just me.
The Duggars had more than that in a small house at one time ..lol

The last time she was fired by his manager Tohme-Tohme - like he said in an interview -- "on behalf of Michael".

[Calla]

Does anyone know how Michael's children were being educated? I heard him say in one interview (can't remember which one) that he was educating the children. I don't know if he meant that he personally was the teacher or what. Michael has stated that he never went to school. Given that Joe pushed them to perform, perform, perform, was Michael well-educated?

IMO

I said it before...but I saw a note posted that was reported to have been written by MJ...and if so, he could not spell.
I don't think Joe was well educated, which could have been at the root of his drive to make his kids famous and rich.

Like I say tho, I don't care about spelling or grammar as long as I can comprehend the point being made.
I personally know plenty of illiterate people (and those dealing with dyslexia,) who are bright , talented, driven, successful individuals.
We all know some famous ones.
I think of you are wealthy, you could choose to keep your kids home with you and hire a romper room teacher & no one would look twice. Now poor folk like me would be arrested on truancy charges. I have issues with formal education anyway, so it makes no nevermind to me..lol

[Calla]

The last time she was fired by his manager Tohme-Tohme - like he said in an interview -- "on behalf of Michael".

Interesting...Wonder what Mr Tohme Tohme told Michael that Grace's story was.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I just have to wonder how he would hide these marks espicially while dancing. In his last tape he has his har pulled back. Perhaps the marks are on the back of his neck.

Sorry Tree Tree..the veins being spoken about in the neck are not located in the back of the neck..but the sides..located just above your collar bone...So dont think this was there the night of his last/final dress rehearsal..more likely later in the wee hours of the morning..or during resuscitation in the ER..Just going by what I have experienced..

LMS

[Tokyo Rose]

IMO, Debbie is only using Michaels kids for money. When she looks at those 2 adorable faces all she sees are dollar signs

Link to your statement?

[bkwits]

Michael Jackson's kids were home schooled.

I realize that, but what kind of education were they getting. Who was homeschooling them? Did a teacher travel with them? The older two should be in what 6th and 7th grade in this next school year?

I just wondered because very little attention has been paid to the childrens' education (I mean by the media).

IMO

[Mnchkin426]

-------------

I took your question to me as a bait. thats what i meant.

I was not baiting you. It was an honest question. Just wanted to know what qualities you see in Debbie Rowe. Pretty simple. Geez.

[jewel6]

I wonder if Lupus showed up in the autopsy. I would think it would.jmo

Lupus is a autoamune disease. sorry for the spelling> It takes a long time to diagnose. They would find it in the blood work and medicine. also medical records. I wonder if anybody else has it in the family? because it is usually heriditary? It is also prevalent in african americans. My friends daughter has it and they have given her a short lifespan. JMO shes twenty and comes to her moms house for injections. jmo

[Calla]

Also about his hair. I heard CW saying his hair was not long enough for long term drug testing. Yet I have also heard that he used a combo of wigs and weaves to hide his baldness. A weeve being used means there was some hair to work with. So perhaps there was some long enough. I know with Anna Nicole, samples of her hair were kept but not tested. I sure hope Jerry Brown gets those and tests them. Hope the same with MJ.

Yeah
I have been counting on Jerry Brown from the day this broke.
The truth, or as much of it as we will be privy to, will come out.

[who_is_it]

I realize that, but what kind of education were they getting. Who was homeschooling them? Did a teacher travel with them? The older two should be in what 6th and 7th grade in this next school year?

I just wondered because very little attention has been paid to the childrens' education (I mean by the media).

IMO

I don't know. I've never read the name of any teacher.

[GoldBug]

Link to your statement?Read the start of my post. What does it say? IMO = In my opinion
But nice try

[GentleBreeze]

Grace was at the memorial and the funeral lunch-she was quoted saying something nice about the kids at the lunch, i believe she is not just in touch with KJ but staying at the encino compound IMO.

Grace is not "just a nanny". She has essentially been their mother for their whole life. IF you consider a mother the woman who loves them, who dries their tears, kisses booboos better, dresses them, takes care of their daily needs and brings them up.

She was the one female figure in their lives from the moment of birth until now. She lived with them, she cared for them. Yes i know old tom tom fired her twice but sure doesn't seem to have been for long. The only time seems to have been the few months just before MJ's death, at which point there was a lot going on and nothing said she was not seeing them those months in london.

I thik to call her "just a nanny" as tokyo did is far underestimating not only her impact on the children but their relationship. She may have been paid for her job as a nanny but that doesn't mean the emotional relationship was any different than a moms was.

IMO

I read that the children called Grace, "Mom."

I saw the photos when they were out and about and the children looked so relaxed with Grace just like they would have if she had been their real mom.

imo

[tisamystery]

[QUOTE=Calla;13274523]May I ask again, how many times does Debbie get to be paid off for her children? SNIPPED
-------------------------

I guess as many times as the Jacksons keep up with "buying" them.
JMO JMO JMO

Maybe it's a rental sort of deal rather than outright purchase. :ohmy:

[Calla]

[QUOTE=Bubbles;13274544]

Maybe it's a rental sort of deal rather than outright purchase. :ohmy:
:mellow:
Maybe you are on to something there.

[Tokyo Rose]

Well the "nanny" was supposedly with MJ for 17 years ...off and on...and the stand in mother figure for the kids, so I think she needs to play a role. I don't know how reliable media reports are...but I also read that MJ fired her because she questioned him on some things..
Wondering about that
I don't have any concerns about the number of people in the house.
But that's just me.
The Duggars had more than that in a small house at one time ..lol

My only concern is the children having some space of their own. Someone said there are 5 bedrooms and 7 baths. That's not enough for 12 children, grandma, jermaine, joe visiting, and the nanny.

Here's hoping Joe wouldn't be allowed there and Jermaine and his 9 kids would move out.

There would then be a room for grandma, a room for the nanny, and a room for each of the children.

jmo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Also about his hair. I heard CW saying his hair was not long enough for long term drug testing. Yet I have also heard that he used a combo of wigs and weaves to hide his baldness. A weeve being used means there was some hair to work with. So perhaps there was some long enough. I know with Anna Nicole, samples of her hair were kept but not tested. I sure hope Jerry Brown gets those and tests them. Hope the same with MJ.

Now this is an area I do not shine in..but in my head..I would think you could use hairs from alternate area's of the body..if he was bald...Humming ..anyone know what forensics they could get from say pubic hair..or under arm hair??...

However..I doubt very much if a drug like Diprivan would be found there..but certainly many drugs do..like poisons..and give you a time line of exposure...

LMS

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know. I've never read the name of any teacher.

A room on the top floor of Neverland was set up like a classroom.

I don't remember where I read it now but the children were reading by the age of 2 and so many have remarked about what intelligent children they are.

[who_is_it]

I have heard of Methadone being used in the USA, not just for heroin addiction but also for certain prescription drugs. As with Anna Nicole, it is being reported that methadone was found at MJ`s home.

I am in Mexico.......what country are you in?.......If you do not mind me asking.

I'm from Germany.

Yes, in most European countries methadone is used, too. Strong addicts also get drugs prescribed with the substance benzodiazepine. I googled... and found out that this drug called Xanax which seems to be quite common in the US is also a drug of the benzodiazepine class. It's the same drug which STRONG addicts get! I think some people don't even know what they take... There's another substitute for illegal drugs called codeine.

[VC2]

Oh Goodness VC2..No, I dont work in Ottawa..but Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington/Hamilton ON..outside west of Toronto..Can I make a suggestion to you??? If you are so sensitive to needles and skin sensitivity..before you go for any tests..put some emla cream on the area..about 20 minutes before venapuncture..it deadens, numbs the area...It's Over the counter cream ( is exspensive $35-45$ a tube)..but is very beneficial for peeps like you..Jus..a sec will look up that magic cream..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidocaine/prilocaine

Sorry for OT..just trying to be helpful VC..

LMS:laugh:

:laugh: i have used emla, will be using it when i go to the dentist wed bc he is going to have to give me novocaine. Stupid govt won't pay for a general to fill a cavity :mad: Its a godsend. Actually brought it along to a vet visit to because one of my kitties had a peri/anal infection and obviously being examined would hurt. Vets face when i pulled it out of the purse and said use this first on her bottom! He thought it was a great idea when he realized.

I ask ppl who sew what happens when they prick themselves with a needle and they all say they yelp!!! IMO people like MJ and myself (as far as pain goes) are absolutely the normal ones and the rest of the world is pretending. Maybe it is why i can totally understand him running for anaesthetics on "minor surgeries" i would to if i could afford it.

You know emla is not even available in the states? It used to be prescription only but i THINK they actually stopped selling it there. Good idea tho to take it for blood tests. Might at least save the ears of the lab techs.

Perhaps it is why i am not so sold on MJ being able to stop abusing prescription pain killers since it seems to me that if his fear of pain was anything near mine then considering he did have conditions that caused real pain there is no way he could face never taking pain killers again. Or i guess i think he may have been able to minimize its use as he tried to get ready for the tour etc. but there were still going to be times he had to have them and not just aspirin.

imo

[who_is_it]

A room on the top floor of Neverland was set up like a classroom.

I don't remember where I read it now but the children were reading by the age of 2 and so many have remarked about what intelligent children they are.

Yes, many people said they're very intelligent.

[tisamystery]

Anybody know where all the money Debbie Rowe received so far has gone? Did she spend it? That's a LOT to spend with little to show for it. Or has she stashed it away somewhere?

[Cardinal]

My only concern is the children having some space of their own. Someone said there are 5 bedrooms and 7 baths. That's not enough for 12 children, grandma, jermaine, joe visiting, and the nanny.

Here's hoping Joe wouldn't be allowed there and Jermaine and his 9 kids would move out.

There would then be a room for grandma, a room for the nanny, and a room for each of the children.

jmo

Did you ever find that link to Jermaine and his children living at Hayvenhurst?

[magnolia]

A room on the top floor of Neverland was set up like a classroom.

I don't remember where I read it now but the children were reading by the age of 2 and so many have remarked about what intelligent children they are.

Bolding is mine...

Of course they were. After all they are MICHAEL'S (swoon) children.

[Tokyo Rose]

Yes, many people said they're very intelligent.

Maybe Grace is a certified teacher. She might have been their home schooling teacher. jmo

[Tokyo Rose]

Did you ever find that link to Jermaine and his children living at Hayvenhurst?

AC360 had a small biography of each of the siblings. Check there. jmo

[Tokyo Rose]

Anybody know where all the money Debbie Rowe received so far has gone? Did she spend it? That's a LOT to spend with little to show for it. Or has she stashed it away somewhere?

I don't think anyone knows since it is no one's business. jmo

[GoldBug]

My only concern is the children having some space of their own. Someone said there are 5 bedrooms and 7 baths. That's not enough for 12 children, grandma, jermaine, joe visiting, and the nanny.

Here's hoping Joe wouldn't be allowed there and Jermaine and his 9 kids would move out.

There would then be a room for grandma, a room for the nanny, and a room for each of the children.

jmo

How do you know Jermaine and his kids live with Katherine Jackson?

[Calla]

My only concern is the children having some space of their own. Someone said there are 5 bedrooms and 7 baths. That's not enough for 12 children, grandma, jermaine, joe visiting, and the nanny.

Here's hoping Joe wouldn't be allowed there and Jermaine and his 9 kids would move out.

There would then be a room for grandma, a room for the nanny, and a room for each of the children.

jmo

LOL
You obviously didn't grow up like I did. No one had a room of their own until one married.
Maybe the kids shared a bed with their dad, and are comfortable with cozy situations.


just being facetious

[Tokyo Rose]

How do you know Jermaine and his kids live with Katherine Jackson?

Keep up with the thread sweetie. LOL

[ScoobyDoo]

My only concern is the children having some space of their own. Someone said there are 5 bedrooms and 7 baths. That's not enough for 12 children, grandma, jermaine, joe visiting, and the nanny.

Here's hoping Joe wouldn't be allowed there and Jermaine and his 9 kids would move out.

There would then be a room for grandma, a room for the nanny, and a room for each of the children.

jmo

Thats crazy. Here in California 5 bedrooms and 7 baths could easily house multiple families. I don't know where you live, but that kind of mentality just wouldn't work here, given the cost of housing.

[GoldBug]

Anybody know where all the money Debbie Rowe received so far has gone? Did she spend it? That's a LOT to spend with little to show for it. Or has she stashed it away somewhere?

I am sure some went to her cosmetic surgery

Imo

[Tokyo Rose]

LOL
You obviously didn't grow up like I did. No one had a room of their own until one married.
Maybe the kids shared a bed with their dad, and are comfortable with cozy situations.


just being facetious

With the amount of money in the estate for these children, I think they should have a room of their own. jmo

[Calla]

A room on the top floor of Neverland was set up like a classroom.

I don't remember where I read it now but the children were reading by the age of 2 and so many have remarked about what intelligent children they are.

I believe they are intelligent too...
Some of the home videos I watched, they impressed me with their knowledge and comprehension as babies

[Cardinal]

I don't think anyone knows since it is no one's business. jmo

I think DR's fiscal responsibility will be very much the court's business. If she has custody, she will be entrusted with the children's distributions from the trust, and will have to account for how the funds are spent.

[CinderL.]

I realize that, but what kind of education were they getting. Who was homeschooling them? Did a teacher travel with them? The older two should be in what 6th and 7th grade in this next school year?

I just wondered because very little attention has been paid to the childrens' education (I mean by the media).

IMO
Speaking of school.......
I heard something about kids from MJ's Jr. High being at the service in Gary last night. I thought he said he never got to go to school???

[GoldBug]

Keep up with the thread sweetie. LOL

I do not see a link that states where Jermaine and his kids live.
Btw, I am not your sweetie. Show some respect

[Tokyo Rose]

Thats crazy. Here in California 5 bedrooms and 7 baths could easily house multiple families. I don't know where you live, but that kind of mentality just wouldn't work here, given the cost of housing.

Is this the same? With the amount of money these kids have in the estate, why can't they have a room of their own? Why is that crazy?

[ScoobyDoo]

[/B]

Bolding is mine...

Of course they were. After all they are MICHAEL'S (swoon) children.

No doubt about it. Michael Jackson was a prodigy and had genius qualities.

[Mnchkin426]

:laugh: i have used emla, will be using it when i go to the dentist wed bc he is going to have to give me novocaine. Stupid govt won't pay for a general to fill a cavity :mad: Its a godsend. Actually brought it along to a vet visit to because one of my kitties had a peri/anal infection and obviously being examined would hurt. Vets face when i pulled it out of the purse and said use this first on her bottom! He thought it was a great idea when he realized.

I ask ppl who sew what happens when they prick themselves with a needle and they all say they yelp!!! IMO people like MJ and myself (as far as pain goes) are absolutely the normal ones and the rest of the world is pretending. Maybe it is why i can totally understand him running for anaesthetics on "minor surgeries" i would to if i could afford it.

You know emla is not even available in the states? It used to be prescription only but i THINK they actually stopped selling it there. Good idea tho to take it for blood tests. Might at least save the ears of the lab techs.

Perhaps it is why i am not so sold on MJ being able to stop abusing prescription pain killers since it seems to me that if his fear of pain was anything near mine then considering he did have conditions that caused real pain there is no way he could face never taking pain killers again. Or i guess i think he may have been able to minimize its use as he tried to get ready for the tour etc. but there were still going to be times he had to have them and not just aspirin.

imo

Just googled to be sure......Emla cream is available in the States....both OTC and prescription. Whew....was worried about all those children as well as adults who are needle-phobic or pain sensitive.

[Tokyo Rose]

I do not see a link that states where Jermaine and his kids live.
Btw, I am not your sweetie. Show some respect

Don't waste your time baiting me today. You are on ignore. lol

[ScoobyDoo]

Is this the same? With the amount of money these kids have in the estate, why can't they have a room of their own? Why is that crazy?

Well.. the proceeds from the estate haven't been distributed yet. And also, I think there is a good possibility that those kids don't want their own room right now.

[GoldBug]

Don't waste your time baiting me today. You are on ignore. lol

Thank you, I was waiting for that
You answered my question. you can not provide a link that supports your statement that Jermaine and his kids live with Katherine.

[GentleBreeze]

LOL
You obviously didn't grow up like I did. No one had a room of their own until one married.
Maybe the kids shared a bed with their dad, and are comfortable with cozy situations.


just being facetious

Even the huge Jackson family lived in a two bedroom home in Indiana.

Dont know what the size of the home has to do with it though.

I bet Katherine's home is very nice and spacious indeed.

imo

[Calla]

With the amount of money in the estate for these children, I think they should have a room of their own. jmo

Wonder if Michael wanted them to have a room of their own.

btw
I read that Jermaines children and Randys children live with grandma.
But that these children are form the same woman so they are cousins and half siblings. Maybe the mother lives there too..:confused:

[Cardinal]

Is this the same? With the amount of money these kids have in the estate, why can't they have a room of their own? Why is that crazy?

Who says they don't have a room of their own?

[Calla]

Even the huge Jackson family lived in a two bedroom home in Indiana.

Dont know what the size of the home has to do with it though.

I bet Katherine's home is very nice and spacious indeed.

imo
I bet her home is plenty roomy.
Size has nothing to do with imo.

I had a 2 bedroom with a converted garage and 9 people lived in it.

We made do and everyone got what they needed.



yeah i am white trash..what of it?:lol:

[GoldBug]

Wonder if Michael wanted them to have a room of their own.

btw
I read that Jermaines children and Randys children live with grandma.


Hi Calla
I have never heard that before. Do you know where you read it. I asked the other poster but she/he assumes I am baiting. I assure you that I am not, just never heard about them living there before

[GoldBug]

Who says they don't have a room of their own?

That is what I want to know. The poster wont supply a link to that statement

[Calla]

Hi Calla
I have never heard that before. Do you know where you read it. I asked the other poster but she/he assumes I am baiting. I assure you that I am not, just never heard about them living there before
I cant recall but then it was in a tv report too.

I will see if I can find it

[who_is_it]

O/T........My sons are half German.

If anything good can come of all this, then perhaps people will be more aware of how addictive some meds can be. And also of course, the Feelgood docs and pharmacies will take notice of all this. Hopefully more will be successfully prosecuted along with the MJ doc(s).

Crazy thing is I just saw on one of the morning shows a guy take $1,000.00 into an L.A. Doc and come out 5 minutes later with MAJOR scripts and samples of narcotics. Even with all this going on, some Feelgoods have not learned their lessons. I have to wonder if some of them are high themselves.

This is crazy!!! Imo these docs aren't "only" to blame for the consequences -- in the worst case lethal consequences -- but also for exploiting the distress of addicts who're willing to pay "all" to get the drug they "need".

[GoldBug]

I cant recall but then it was in a tv report too.

I will see if I can find it

Thank you very much

[ScoobyDoo]

If Debbie goes for custody, her finances are going to be a HUGE part of her case. Wont look good for her if she is broke. Speaking of homes, the house and area she is living in now would never be proper for those kids.


I really have no opinion on who is best suited to care for the children, but am curious to know why you feel the area she lives in wouldn't be proper.

[VC2]

Just googled to be sure......Emla cream is available in the States....both OTC and prescription. Whew....was worried about all those children as well as adults who are needle-phobic or pain sensitive.

maybe its just particular states, because i know a couple of people who really needed it and came up here to get it. That was how i first learned about it. Either way i will tell them to check again because that is good news. (just don't tell a pain phobic daughter about it if she was wishing she could get rings inserted in her lip or something :D)

[Cardinal]

He hasn't lived at Hayvenhurst for 4.5 years, but Michael Jackson's presence at his family's Encino, Calif., estate lingers palpably. A metal star engraved with his name is embedded in the walkway to the 20-room mansion, lest anyone forget that this is a house that Michael built and still maintains. In the 32-seat east-wing theater, his sister-in-law Margaret Maldonado Jackson, who lives at Hayvenhurst with husband Jermaine and his parents

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,312364,00.html

That article is from 1992. Is he still there?

[GoldBug]

Anybody know where all the money Debbie Rowe received so far has gone? Did she spend it? That's a LOT to spend with little to show for it. Or has she stashed it away somewhere?Here is where some went.

Court records show that Rowe started a horse-breeding business in May 2005 in Palmdale, where she moved into a modest, ranch-style house. Jackson gave her more than $250,000 the following month. She paid a $165,000 American Express bill and some attorney's fees, and by the end of the year, the money was all spent, she told the court.

She said she did not have health insurance, and from 2001 to 2005 had spent $16,776 on prescriptions.

Jackson's lawyers countered that Rowe had "discretionary spending of at least $59,000 per month." And court records also contain an allegation that she spent $35,000 a month on care for her dogs.
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/nationworld/la-me-debbie-rowe2-2009jul02,0,4703816.story?page=2

[Tokyo Rose]

Dept. Of Children And Family Services Investigating Welfare Of Michael Jackson Children

The investigation, which falls under a category known as Caretaker Absence or Incapacity, involves talking with the children about their life and finding out their exposure, if any, to the alleged drug use that went on in the house.

The investigators will also look into the conditions at the Jackson’s Encino house, such as who would care for the kids if Katherine were not available.

http://www.popcrunch.com/dept-of-children-and-family-services-investigating-welfare-of-michael-jackson-children/



Oh good, I'm glad to see this. I had heard something about an investigation, but couldn't find a link.

[who_is_it]

What's the name of the driver who took MJ to Dr. Klein's office?

Did Joe Jackson say WHY he believes in foul play? Did he give any details?

[Cardinal]

Dept. Of Children And Family Services Investigating Welfare Of Michael Jackson Children

The investigation, which falls under a category known as Caretaker Absence or Incapacity, involves talking with the children about their life and finding out their exposure, if any, to the alleged drug use that went on in the house.

The investigators will also look into the conditions at the Jackson’s Encino house, such as who would care for the kids if Katherine were not available.

http://www.popcrunch.com/dept-of-children-and-family-services-investigating-welfare-of-michael-jackson-children/

I'm sure the court has ordered a thorough investigation of both the Jackson home and the Rowe home. As they should. I'm also sure the court is aware of the media attention to the custody decision, and every aspect of the situation will be taken into account.

[*Serenity*]

If Debbie goes for custody, her finances are going to be a HUGE part of her case. Wont look good for her if she is broke. Speaking of homes, the house and area she is living in now would never be proper for those kids.


Check this sign out she has posted on her property....
LOL and her t-shirt.

:chicken::chicken:



http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/debbie-rowe-michael-jackson-custody-children/

[Mnchkin426]

maybe its just particular states, because i know a couple of people who really needed it and came up here to get it. That was how i first learned about it. Either way i will tell them to check again because that is good news. (just don't tell a pain phobic daughter about it if she was wishing she could get rings inserted in her lip or something :D)

Hmm....might be true about certain states. Hope I'm not wrong. Just read that some people were recently getting it for their diabetic children. I know some children who need painful daily shots for arthritis have used it in the past. Will have to ask them if they are still.

Tongue piercing is the one that really makes me uncomfortable....well some other locations are worse but I won't go there. LOL

[Cardinal]

Here is where some went.

Court records show that Rowe started a horse-breeding business in May 2005 in Palmdale, where she moved into a modest, ranch-style house. Jackson gave her more than $250,000 the following month. She paid a $165,000 American Express bill and some attorney's fees, and by the end of the year, the money was all spent, she told the court.

She said she did not have health insurance, and from 2001 to 2005 had spent $16,776 on prescriptions.

Jackson's lawyers countered that Rowe had "discretionary spending of at least $59,000 per month." And court records also contain an allegation that she spent $35,000 a month on care for her dogs.
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/nationworld/la-me-debbie-rowe2-2009jul02,0,4703816.story?page=2

$35,000 a month on her dogs??? For what, for heaven's sake? Daily pedicures?

[*Serenity*]

$35,000 a month on her dogs??? For what, for heaven's sake? Daily pedicures?

I read somewhere along the way since Michael died, that she
also has a pretty good size in ground swimming pool, which
she uses for her dogs. Nice doggie pool hey?

[Tokyo Rose]

I'm sure the court has ordered a thorough investigation of both the Jackson home and the Rowe home. As they should. I'm also sure the court is aware of the media attention to the custody decision, and every aspect of the situation will be taken into account.

I agree. Everyone will be investigated and where they will live and in what conditions. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Dept. Of Children And Family Services Investigating Welfare Of Michael Jackson Children

The investigation, which falls under a category known as Caretaker Absence or Incapacity, involves talking with the children about their life and finding out their exposure, if any, to the alleged drug use that went on in the house.

The investigators will also look into the conditions at the Jackson’s Encino house, such as who would care for the kids if Katherine were not available.

http://www.popcrunch.com/dept-of-children-and-family-services-investigating-welfare-of-michael-jackson-children/

Glad to see they are getting this rolling pretty quick. This is customary for the investigation to be done. The sooner the better.

They will talk with the children and that is a good thing and also make sure Katherine's residence is appropriate. I am sure she has no problem in that department. Isn't this a compound where the home sits way back off the main road? I think it would be ideal for them.

imo

[GoldBug]

$35,000 a month on her dogs??? For what, for heaven's sake? Daily pedicures?

That is alot of money each month just for dogs

I heard she also had cosmetic surgery back in 2005

[Calla]

For some reason I think Jermaine moved in there with his family and the kids stayed. I am not sure if it was his oldest 3 or the 2(?) he had with Randy's ex wife.
There is a daughter Dawn , who it has been reported, lived with Katherine.

She is said to have been born in 1984 and the mother is "unknown"..(ironically, that is also the year it is reported that Janet married James Debarge & had a secret child as told by James' brother.)

Anyway, no matter which grand kids live there, or why, I will believe that is the place for the children at this point.

**and sorry, I can't find the report, I recall, about who actually lives there but I will keep trying.

[Cardinal]

I read somewhere along the way since Michael died, that she
also has a pretty good size in ground swimming pool, which
she uses for her dogs. Nice doggie pool hey?

I saw video of that somewhere on youtube. I wonder if Michael's children would have to compete with the dogs for her attention and affection?

[Cardinal]

That is alot of money each months just for dogd

I heard she also had cosmetic surgery back in 2005

Cosmetic surgery? :ohmy: Surely not. :D

[GoldBug]

I read somewhere along the way since Michael died, that she
also has a pretty good size in ground swimming pool, which
she uses for her dogs. Nice doggie pool hey?

While trying to regain custody, Rowe gave a televised interview to CBS. She was shown with her many dogs -- "the kids" -- in a Beverly Hills home that Jackson gave her. The video showed several of the dogs swimming in an attractive pool in the lush backyard.

Inside the house were framed photographs of the dogs. There were none of her children because, she told "The Insider," that was part of the deal she made with Jackson when she gave up custody.
http://www.zap2it.com/news/la-me-debbie-rowe2-2009jul02,0,3376719.story

[GoldBug]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnjLLLEoRc

[*Serenity*]

I saw video of that somewhere on youtube. I wonder if Michael's children would have to compete with the dogs for her attention and affection?

She will probably put them to work doing all the chores to feed the dogs and horses.

I don't really think she wants them at all, in my opinion.

JMO

[aproudmom]

POSTED THE OTHERS IN THE LINKS best interview I have seen yet..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsQ5FGECGQ&feature=related
Michael Jackson interview- Geraldo pt.5/5

[GoldBug]

Cosmetic surgery? :ohmy: Surely not. :D

Yes she did LOL

[VC2]

I loved the story that Brian Monroe the cnn contributor just told about meeting Blanket when he answered the door to MJ's. He had a little bowl of lifesavers wheich he offered to Monroe and then he went to shake his hand but used his left hand and michael stepped in and said "no no, use your right hand to shake hands" :wub:
I just found it touching and an example of MJ not just being a friend to his kids but also teaching manners.

Monroe was there to do an interview with him for cnn in 2007

[Cardinal]

I give up LOL

Halima Rashid became Jackson's fourth wife, she is of Afghan descent, who married in 2007.[15] They currently live in Los Angeles, but frequently travel to London and Bahrain. Jermaine has 8 children: 3 with Gordy, 2 with Maldonado and 2 with Alejandra. A daughter, named Dawn, was born in 1984, mother is unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Jackson

Don't worry about it, Athena. I'm sure if it's an issue the court will address it. Not for us to fret. :)

[aproudmom]

bringing this issue over from previous thread.

Firebird11 posted a claim about the mother of the accuser and that she had named her baby after Michael Jackson.

And I asked, and repeat it here: Do you have a link for that?

O don't forget he has twins also:rolleyes:lady claims Michael fathered her twins a few disappeared I guess..this women claimed to have named her and MJ children..after him..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6mkcYY-1MQ&feature=related

[Cardinal]

She will probably put them to work doing all the chores to feed the dogs and horses.

I don't really think she wants them at all, in my opinion.

JMO

This is my opinion: I don't think she actually wants to raise the children. I do think she wants a voice in how they are raised, by whom they are raised, and with whom they associate. I suspect she wants to make sure Joe is not a part of their lives. And she may want to spend time with them.

[disneyfreak]

Also I might add, Mark G on LKL said such a prosecution of these kind of docs for these type of charges is a real novelty. How many non famous people have died at their hands with not even a slap on the wrist?

Its becoming more common in California to bust these doctors. Usually its through the DEA though.

[aproudmom]

I read somewhere along the way since Michael died, that she
also has a pretty good size in ground swimming pool, which
she uses for her dogs. Nice doggie pool hey?

she lost that home he bought for her the dogs loved the pool though

[*Serenity*]

This is my opinion: I don't think she actually wants to raise the children. I do think she wants a voice in how they are raised, by whom they are raised, and with whom they associate. I suspect she wants to make sure Joe is not a part of their lives. And she may want to spend time with them.

Well I hope she takes that sign down from her property and cleans up her potty mouth. :) She looks like she could get pretty darn mean if you tick her off.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I have a question..Does anyone have information on the Jackson Compound in Encino California?..I had to chuckle..cause when I hear compound .all sorts of visions pop into my head...although have heard it frequently when watching Kennedy coverages..

Anyway, I am sure when many have discussed the three Jackson kids..and their enviornment..NONE of us have ever fathomed the "Jackson Compound" lifestyles..LOL..

I am most certain ( yep assuming here)..that this "Compound is huge, and Michael,Paris and Blanket have just fine accommodations..and knowing Grace is there..I am sure they are being supervised appropriately..I cant see where there could be any problem..Kind of sounds like what they had been used to all of their lives..

LMS

[Cardinal]

I sure hope you are right!

I hope I am too. Not for the sake of being right. But because I think that would be the best situation for the children. At some point, the 2 older ones are going to have questions about her. I think it would be healthy for them to know her.

[Cardinal]

Well I hope she takes that sign down from her property and cleans up her potty mouth. :) She looks like she could get pretty darn mean if you tick her off.

I wouldn't want to cross her! OTOH, if I were being hounded by the media and having my privacy violated by them, I might have the same sign! LOL

[VC2]

Glad to see they are getting this rolling pretty quick. This is customary for the investigation to be done. The sooner the better.

They will talk with the children and that is a good thing and also make sure Katherine's residence is appropriate. I am sure she has no problem in that department. Isn't this a compound where the home sits way back off the main road? I think it would be ideal for them.

imo

I agree. I am confused though, what in the world does cps want to know about whether or not they saw any drug use by MJ. The man is DEAD. They can't take them away from him now. Is it purely voyeurism? I also think that it is a terrible thing to be questioning children who just lost the only parent in their life about, who are already afraid they will have to go live with a stranger (DR) or be torn away from the only family they know.

Why would they be so cruel to the kids as to question them about their dads drug use. In fact imo it might make them feel guilty about not stopping it if they hadn't been exposed to it or not knowing. If they had been, surely it is far better for them to believe that he needed pain medication for his lupus or back than to suggest there is anything wrong???? Hopefully the family has sheltered them from any idea of what is being said about their daddy. To have cps bring it up to them is astounding.

Yes i would understand the need if it was a question of MJ having custody but obviously that is not the case.

IF cps causes any of those children to cry or to question themselves or their daddy right now they should be sued for millions.

IMO

[Pretty Leaf]

She's still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement. JMO[/B]
I wouldn't put so much hope for those children in a nanny. After all, it is just a nanny.

My concern is the number of people living in the Encino house. I read on AC360 the other night backgrounds on the siblings. It seems Jermaine and his nine kids live there. So with the grandma and his nine kids and MJ's three kids along with Jermaine, and Joe visiting and staying sometimes, that's 15 people.

I'm betting Joe will be visiting much more now too. That Encino house probably isn't big enough for everyone and no room for the nanny probably.

The grandma went out and bought the kids toys and sleeping bags right away. Now I know why.

JMO

bolding mine

You continually post that she has not received all her money from the settlement. You know this how?? I can't find that info anywhere. Was it last night that you thought you had it in some document (if not then it was some other topic so sorry if it is not this issue)

PS you can make a statement that she is still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement...that is a statement of fact/or fiction it can't be your opinion, either it is or it is not.

[aproudmom]

This is crazy!!! Imo these docs aren't "only" to blame for the consequences -- in the worst case lethal consequences -- but also for exploiting the distress of addicts who're willing to pay "all" to get the drug they "need".

Dr Klein is also at fault he said he knew MJ was a addict and he continued to give him medication he might want to shut up.. seen MJ ex publicist on TV today she sure made a good point on this doctor...
Sorry NO LINK if anyone wants to hear it google it like I did..not hard to find..

[GentleBreeze]

I agree. I am confused though, what in the world does cps want to know about whether or not they saw any drug use by MJ. The man is DEAD. They can't take them away from him now. Is it purely voyeurism? I also think that it is a terrible thing to be questioning children who just lost the only parent in their life about, who are already afraid they will have to go live with a stranger (DR) or be torn away from the only family they know.

Why would they be so cruel to the kids as to question them about their dads drug use. In fact imo it might make them feel guilty about not stopping it if they hadn't been exposed to it or not knowing. If they had been, surely it is far better for them to believe that he needed pain medication for his lupus or back than to suggest there is anything wrong???? Hopefully the family has sheltered them from any idea of what is being said about their daddy. To have cps bring it up to them is astounding.

Yes i would understand the need if it was a question of MJ having custody but obviously that is not the case.

IF cps causes any of those children to cry or to question themselves or their daddy right now they should be sued for millions.

IMO

Well for me, I look for a little bit of truth in any news article knowing a whole lot of spin and sensationalism has been thrown in.

If the children were questioned about that it wouldn't be CPS it would be the LE investigators.

imo

[Cardinal]

Well for me, I look for a little bit of truth in any news article knowing a whole lot of spin and sensationalism has been thrown in.

If the children were questioned about that it wouldn't be CPS it would be the LE investigators.

imo

Aaah, I'll bet you're right. LE may have asked the children about the "doctors" who were in and out of the house. ETA: Or maybe LE had CPS do it for them under the auspices of the home study.

[flipflop]

I have a question..Does anyone have information on the Jackson Compound in Encino California?..I had to chuckle..cause when I hear compound .all sorts of visions pop into my head...although have heard it frequently when watching Kennedy coverages..

Anyway, I am sure when many have discussed the three Jackson kids..and their enviornment..NONE of us have ever fathomed the "Jackson Compound" lifestyles..LOL..

I am most certain ( yep assuming here)..that this "Compound is huge, and Michael,Paris and Blanket have just fine accommodations..and knowing Grace is there..I am sure they are being supervised appropriately..I cant see where there could be any problem..Kind of sounds like what they had been used to all of their lives..

LMS


Is this the house? It looks beautiful. The one in the center? I know there are a lot of homes.

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/40232/view/?service=1

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Goodness..I was searching for other things.and found this..Yikes!! It is apparantly from LaToya Jackson..


La Toya Jackson: Michael was murdered... I felt it from the start
By Caroline Graham



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1199092/La-Toya-Jackson-Michael-murdered--I-felt-start.html

snippet..~~

Fighting back tears, La Toya, 53, said: ‘I believe Michael was murdered, I felt that from the start. Not just one person was involved, rather it was a conspiracy of people.

I realize this is from a "Rag" site in the uk..but Jeesh..

LMS

[Cardinal]

Is this the house? It looks beautiful. The one in the center? I know there are a lot of homes.

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/40232/view/?service=1

I'm not sure which one it is, but regardless - not too shabby.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Is this the house? It looks beautiful. The one in the center? I know there are a lot of homes.

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/40232/view/?service=1

Yikes..wow..I had no idea of this layout..I did alittle snooping....really nice..spacious..and well looked after...Wonder if the lawnkeepers have to sign a "Confidentiality Contract"?..Sorry..couldnt resist..My Bad!!

LMS

ETA..Forgot my manners..TY flipflop

[*Serenity*]

Goodness..I was searching for other things.and found this..Yikes!! It is apparantly from LaToya Jackson..


La Toya Jackson: Michael was murdered... I felt it from the start
By Caroline Graham



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1199092/La-Toya-Jackson-Michael-murdered--I-felt-start.html

snippet..~~

Fighting back tears, La Toya, 53, said: ‘I believe Michael was murdered, I felt that from the start. Not just one person was involved, rather it was a conspiracy of people.

I realize this is from a "Rag" site in the uk..but Jeesh..

LMS


Well -- when I stop and think about the big picture my own hinky meter starting going off when the LofLondon insured his death
for overdose NOT natural causes. AND the time wasted by NOT
calling 911 followed up with the oxgen tanks and drugs on the property.
That one security guard that called 911 sure was quick to relocate to unknown residence-- he knows a lot in my opinion. I really wonder who else had been in that home that morning ?

[*Serenity*]

Yikes..wow..I had no idea of this layout..I did alittle snooping....really nice..spacious..and well looked after...Wonder if the lawnkeepers have to sign a "Confidentiality Contract"?..Sorry..couldnt resist..My Bad!!

LMS


I noticed the verbage --upper left corner by the address--
HEAVILY MORTGAGED

[Tokyo Rose]

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/07/09/interactive-graphic-the-jackson-siblings/

Here is where I saw the information on Jermaine and his kids. Unfortunately it has been removed. It's a shame since this had good information. Those of you that seem to think I'm lying, I really don't care. I put in my original post I saw this at AC360. Click on this and you will see the interactive picture.

[GentleBreeze]

I actually disagree with you GB :ohmy:

I do believe DCFS will question the children about what they saw or knew about MJ's drug use but it will be done in a subtle way. This is not uncommon and is actually preferable as opposed to LE because they are trained and they will give LE that portion of the interview they do related to the drugs. It is actually routine as part of the home study. JMO

I sure haven't ever heard of it. Now sure if MJ was trying to gain custody but all the cases I have seen a police officer that has expertise in interviewing small children will talk with them about what they knew or didn't know if they are investigating the death of the parent.

imo

[aproudmom]

bolding mine

You continually post that she has not received all her money from the settlement. You know this how?? I can't find that info anywhere. Was it last night that you thought you had it in some document (if not then it was some other topic so sorry if it is not this issue)

PS you can make a statement that she is still trying to get the original 8.5 million in the agreement...that is a statement of fact/or fiction it can't be your opinion, either it is or it is not.

doubt anyone will look for it she lost the home he bought her the one the doggies so loved it is all on the net but you know what Pretty Leaf at this point I see it does not matter to some they will always have something to come back with and their minds are sat not even a legal document will change it..so I will not search for things I have seen and read to be the truth for those who are to darn lazy to do it for themselves..so they just spew out what they want to believe MJ had a agreement with her many times and paid her many times and she still has nothing so of course this women will want some more in his death no doubt about it..in 2005 IIRC she told a judge she could not afford health insurance she had credit card debt out the A$$ so he paid her stuff off or gave her money even though his lawyer said how does 1 person spend that much on animals..IT IS ALL ON THE NET...JMO

She went after HIS kids when it was to benefit her and money made her turn and walk away every time..my question is a lot want to jump on KJ what about DR did she think her children were with a person who overly loved children or who's Grandfather would harm them??IF SO IS SHE THE PERSON THAT SHOULD HAVE THEM??? NO IMO

[who_is_it]

Also I might add, Mark G on LKL said such a prosecution of these kind of docs for these type of charges is a real novelty. How many non famous people have died at their hands with not even a slap on the wrist?

That's my concern. If a street addict dies "no one" cares. If celebrities die (ANS, Ledger, MJ) the media talk about homicide. It's a double standard.

Moreover some MUST get the drugs (addicts to illegal drugs: substitutes), others shouldn't. Where does one draw the line?

[Cardinal]

LOL I just came back to post that after reading the entire article and was going to give a warning that it was from a tabloid. However, it actually is tastefully done and not with sensationlism. I suspect some of it may be true. When you read the entire article -- she is not actually saying though that someone "murdered" MJ -- just that she felt MJ was manipulated. JMO

Definitely a tabloid. BUT...there are a lot of quotes from LaToya. So either there's some truth in there somewhere, or they're going to get sued!

[Pretty Leaf]

Cosmetic surgery? :ohmy: Surely not. :D


For the life of me I can not see evidence that Debbie had cosmetic surgery.anywhere..she has jowls, never had a tummy tuck from what I can see, her nose seems untouched... she should ask for her money back!!

all in jest.........:biggrin:

[Cardinal]

For the life of me I can not see evidence that Debbie had cosmetic surgery.anywhere..she has jowls, never had a tummy tuck from what I can see, her nose seems untouched... she should ask for her money back!!

all in jest.........:biggrin:

Maybe it was somewhere we can't see? :laugh:

[Pretty Leaf]

Maybe it was somewhere we can't see? :laugh:

Jeesh, even Michael did not want to go there:wink:

[who_is_it]

LOL I just came back to post that after reading the entire article and was going to give a warning that it was from a tabloid. However, it actually is tastefully done and not with sensationlism. I suspect some of it may be true. When you read the entire article -- she is not actually saying though that someone "murdered" MJ -- just that she felt MJ was manipulated. JMO

Rupert Murdoch's UK tabloids (Mirror, The Sun, NOTW) talk today about "killers" and "murder" instead of "homicide". Probably this "Daily xxx" paper -- whatever it's called -- belongs to the Rupert Murdoch group, too.

[aproudmom]

Geraldo was a strong supporter during the trial too!

See I never saw that stuff I was blinded by the other things and judging from the way a person looked or talked but I have watched more and read everything I can and have seen I was just like so many those interviews I blocked out because I did not want the truth..that is why I get angry to hear myself called a MJ crazy fan or a supporter who will always block out the truth because I WAS VERY MUCH A HATER of MJ at one point and that doc was what sealed it for me back then...sad to say I was one of those people but I was and I am not changing because he is dead either it is because I have took the time to learn some of the true facts..

[Pretty Leaf]

A few years back a segment for ET was filmed in the guest house. they showed it last week.

BIG QUESTION: When watching the various tours of Neverland, one of the anchors, (wish I could remember which one), made a comment about Michael's furniture and said that many of the pieces were making their way back there. It was as if he let it slip and I was wondering if anyone else heard it. I rewinded several times to make sure. I did notice later at least one moving van going through the gates of NL and it was the same company (Allied perhaps??) that appeared at the MJ home when Janet was there. Anyone have any info on this. I have to wonder what the heck a moving van was doing at NL to began with.

Thanks in advance for replies.........I have to run and make dinner in a hurry, taco night and these people here are starving. I will be back.........sure has been a good group today!!!

Yes I heard that as well, i think there was a link to that video on here last night.