7/7, 7/8 Memorial thread, #2 & Wed. Daily thread

[*Serenity*]

Memorial Photos


http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Memorial/ss/events/en/070609mjacksonstaple

[*Serenity*]

Good Morning Meridian,

I went back and watched it again and of course the tears came again. Hearing Michael's voice at the end was one of the most heart gripping moments for me.

As I watched the entire memorial I had the overwhelming sense that there the truth was finally being told. Can you even imagine how it must have felt for the 20,000 sitting right there? There was a sense of peace, unity and love throughout that entire Center.

It made me feel so much better about the future of MJs children when I saw how very close they are with their father's family. It is them who can bring love and comfort to such beautiful children who loved and idolized their daddy.

imo

The children's interaction with Michael's family spoke volumes, for me.
Paris was certainly watching out for little Blanket. In one photo she has both arms around him holding on to his arms, and kissing the top of his head. Another photo she is in front of him holding his hand. She is obviously quite mature for age, and shows tremendous love and care for both of her brothers. Prince was also loving toward Paris after she spoke about her 'Daddy'. I can clearly see a very strong bond between the three of them.

IMO

[Meridian]

The woman that led "Heal the World" and "We Are The World" in the MJ memorial today.

http://www.lakenetnwi.net/member/notable/html/Kellee_Patterson.htm
Seriously???

[Barbara fl.]

Good Morning Meridian,

I went back and watched it again and of course the tears came again. Hearing Michael's voice at the end was one of the most heart gripping moments for me.

As I watched the entire memorial I had the overwhelming sense that there the truth was finally being told. Can you even imagine how it must have felt for the 20,000 sitting right there? There was a sense of peace, unity and love throughout that entire Center.

It made me feel so much better about the future of MJs children when I saw how very close they are with their father's family. It is them who can bring love and comfort to such beautiful children who loved and idolized their daddy.

imo


I too hope the children remain with Michael's family.....The mother will destroy these children.....but I truly doubt that any court would give them to her.....all she is looking for is another pay day (like NG said)....I believe that if it comes down to it the family will probably pay her off one more time.....but I hope that the jusge rules in their favor so they wont have to give this woman another dime.....

She made enough off of her own children...:mad:

[Meridian]

Run fast because here comes the comments about the gum chewing again.... I was pointed out before and MJ fans ripped those people apart :chicken:
The difference is that you didn't say anything positive along with your comment. :rolleyes:

[Barbara fl.]

The children's interaction with Michael's family spoke volumes, for me.
Paris was certainly watching out for little Blanket. In one photo she has both arms around him holding on to his arms, and kissing the top of his head. Another photo she is in front of him holding his hand. She is obviously quite mature for age, and shows tremendous love and care for both of her brothers. Prince was also loving toward Paris after she spoke about her 'Daddy'. I can clearly see a very strong bond between the three of them.

IMO



I think that Paris is a very sensitive and caring little girl...one of MJ friends stated that when ever he was around them, Paris was very protective of Michael and would follow him into everyroom.....

My heart breaks for her....she is a little girl that any mother would die to have and now she has to go thru all this, not knowing where hr and her brothers will end up....

I pray the judge does the right thing and leaves them where they are and belong....

[*Serenity*]

I think that Paris is a very sensitive and caring little girl...one of MJ friends stated that when ever he was around them, Paris was very protective of Michael and would follow him into everyroom.....

My heart breaks for her....she is a little girl that any mother would die to have and now she has to go thru all this, not knowing where hr and her brothers will end up....

I pray the judge does the right thing and leaves them where they are and belong....


I can't imagine any judge seperating the three children, it would be devastating for all three of them. AND DR has no legal rights to Blanket at all. I seriously doubt a judge will hand Prince and Paris over to her after reviewing her entire history in regards to the children. In my opinion.

The children appear to be comfortable with Michael's family and getting the love and support they need right now.

I pray for all of them.

:rose:

[Meridian]

Good Morning Meridian,

I went back and watched it again and of course the tears came again. Hearing Michael's voice at the end was one of the most heart gripping moments for me.

As I watched the entire memorial I had the overwhelming sense that there the truth was finally being told. Can you even imagine how it must have felt for the 20,000 sitting right there? There was a sense of peace, unity and love throughout that entire Center.

It made me feel so much better about the future of MJs children when I saw how very close they are with their father's family. It is them who can bring love and comfort to such beautiful children who loved and idolized their daddy.

imo
Good morning!

I agree with all that you said. :thumbup:

[GentleBreeze]

I can't imagine any judge separating the three children, it would be devastating for all three of them. AND DR has no legal rights to Blanket at all. I seriously doubt a judge will hand Prince and Paris over to her after reviewing her entire history in regards to the children. In my opinion.

The children appear to be comfortable with Michael's family and getting the love and support they need right now.

I pray for all of them.

:rose:

I just don't see it happening either, Serenity.

There simply is no logical reason for doing so. It is obvious how bonded these children are with the Jackson family. They have been there consistently all of their lives just like their daddy. With him gone and them in deep grief about that they need this family even more so now.

imo

[MoonHarvest]

Good Morning Meridian,

I went back and watched it again and of course the tears came again. Hearing Michael's voice at the end was one of the most heart gripping moments for me.

As I watched the entire memorial I had the overwhelming sense that there the truth was finally being told. Can you even imagine how it must have felt for the 20,000 sitting right there? There was a sense of peace, unity and love throughout that entire Center.

It made me feel so much better about the future of MJs children when I saw how very close they are with their father's family. It is them who can bring love and comfort to such beautiful children who loved and idolized their daddy.

imo

I too Gentle, had the overwhelming sense that finally the truth was not only being told but being HEARD. It was so big how could it be denied any longer?

For me it was summed up entirely when Al Sharpton said ""there weren't nothing strange about your daddy,it was strange what your daddy had to deal with." At that moment I just about fell in love with Al Sharpton.:wub:

[GentleBreeze]

I think that Paris is a very sensitive and caring little girl...one of MJ friends stated that when ever he was around them, Paris was very protective of Michael and would follow him into everyroom.....

My heart breaks for her....she is a little girl that any mother would die to have and now she has to go thru all this, not knowing where hr and her brothers will end up....

I pray the judge does the right thing and leaves them where they are and belong....

On Greta last night the nurse that came to the home this year said that Prince was very close to his father and that all of four interacted very well with each other. She talked about how intelligent they were, social, happy and very giving. They wanted her to eat with them and they bought her a gift on her birthday. She said MJ was the most humble man she had ever met and loved to give hugs.

So they were one family unit no matter the biological makeup and I don't think any Judge is going to rip that away from them and send them to live with someone they don't know or split them up when there is no need.

imo

[*Serenity*]

I just don't see it happening either, Serenity.

There simply is no logical reason for doing so. It is obvious how bonded these children are with the Jackson family. They have been there consistently all of their lives just like their daddy. With him gone and them in deep grief about that they need this family even more so now.

imo

I'm sure the days ahead will be difficult for them as things quiet, and settle down with no viewing of their Daddy, no memorials, and all of the extended family return to their homes/lives. They will start grieving/missing Michael more when everyday life for them will become so very different. They are in new and unfamiliar surroundings, lost their father, and probably so very confused and heartbroken. It is painful to even imagine what they are going through.

As for Katherine, wow... I hope to never in my lifetime walk through that woman's shoes! Loss for words-really.

Nice to see you this a.m. GB and I hope you have a wonderful day.

:)

[MoonHarvest]

Jackson's Kids in Better Spirits at Post-Memorial Reception

http://www.usmagazine.com/news/michael-jacksons-kids-in-better-spirits-at-reception-200987

[lilismom]

Memorial Photos


http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Memorial/ss/events/en/070609mjacksonstaple


Thanks for posting these. Viewing them now. As I do and as I watched yesterday through tears and a huge lump in my throat on my frickin birthday no less (lol), I was reminded for probably the 100th time since his death what a superstar Michael Jackson really was...and then...Paris spoke. OMG. I couldn't even breathe. And then it all was brought back down to reality. Michael is their father and brother and son. What a heartbreaking day for them. My thanks to them for allowing us to participate in this memorial and thanks to them for sharing Michael with us for now and forever.

IMO,
Lilismom

[trucrimegal]

Oh right----I hadn't thought of it that way----his new dancers and singers. Thanks for bringing that out.

Like your nic, btw. I love true crime myself, too!


Thanks -- reading True Crime has been my passion since I was very young. Ann Rule is one of my favorites authors in True Crime.

[mrsmcgoo]

Good morning all!

I am still feeling the effects of the memorial yesterday. It sure pulled at the heart strings.

I am always sad when I see memorials like this because I wonder if the person, MJ in this case, was aware of how he was loved? Makes me sad.

I do feel that the children need to be with MJ's family, Katherine for sure or perhaps one of the girls. I think it would be a good idea to have the long time Nanny close to share in their care. I was so happy that Paris was able to express her love for Dad, down the road she can look back and not have regrets that she didn't express her love for her father too all when she had the chance.

JMO

[ellegna]

I can't imagine any judge seperating the three children, it would be devastating for all three of them. AND DR has no legal rights to Blanket at all. I seriously doubt a judge will hand Prince and Paris over to her after reviewing her entire history in regards to the children. In my opinion.

The children appear to be comfortable with Michael's family and getting the love and support they need right now.

I pray for all of them.

:rose:

I totally agree.

There's no doubt in my mind DR has resurfaced for one reason. $$$$$
I truly hope the Jackson Family stand firm and refuse to give DR one red cent for custody or just to go away.

[*Serenity*]

Jackson's Kids in Better Spirits at Post-Memorial Reception

http://www.usmagazine.com/news/michael-jacksons-kids-in-better-spirits-at-reception-200987


Thank you for the link MH.

From the link, it appears Grace was with the children and family.



Grace Rwaramba, Jackson's former nanny, was overheard saying: "The kids are holding up really well. It's good for them to be around the other kids."


It's great news to hear how much they are enjoying all of their cousins.

[Firehead11]

That is what all the reports have been. I don't recall the catalogue being worth that much. I also don't think he owned the whole thing anymore


http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke

An interesting read for all that wish to know about it.

He owned half of the catalog at the time of his death.

Look at the box on the left in the link. It states that the catalog is estimated to be worth 2 million.

[lilismom]

Looking thru the pictures it appears as if Prince Michael II is wearing white socks. Just like his daddy. :(

IMO,
Lilismom

[GentleBreeze]

The children's interaction with Michael's family spoke volumes, for me.
Paris was certainly watching out for little Blanket. In one photo she has both arms around him holding on to his arms, and kissing the top of his head. Another photo she is in front of him holding his hand. She is obviously quite mature for age, and shows tremendous love and care for both of her brothers. Prince was also loving toward Paris after she spoke about her 'Daddy'. I can clearly see a very strong bond between the three of them.

IMO

I think their daddy taught them to be kind and loving children. They will gather strength in each other and look after the other one. I believe they were taught that by MJ.

He so wanted his children to feel like they were loved and cherished and that it was alright to just be kids and have fun.

The entire Jackson family including the children were very emotionally attached to each other.

They ARE family..........no doubt about it, imo.

I don't see Joe being around much. He will go back to LV once this calms down some, imo.

imo

[*Serenity*]

Looking thru the pictures it appears as if Prince Michael II is wearing white socks. Just like his daddy. :(

IMO,
Lilismom

Yea... isn't that just adorable, along with the doll of his 'Daddy'?

Look at photos #13, 14, and 15



http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/features/article_1488415.php/In_Pictures_Michael_Jackson_Memorial_Service_Round up?page=15

[GentleBreeze]

Looking thru the pictures it appears as if Prince Michael II is wearing white socks. Just like his daddy. :(

IMO,
Lilismom

Yes he had the black on with MJs famous look of the white socks and he was holding his "daddy doll" and I thought that was precious. You could tell he had played with it. It is probably one of his favorite toy dolls. lol

imo

[MoonHarvest]

I think their daddy taught them to be kind and loving children. They will gather strength in each other and look after the other one. I believe they were taught that by MJ.

He so wanted his children to feel like they were loved and cherished and that it was alright to just be kids and have fun.

The entire Jackson family including the children were very emotionally attached to each other.

They ARE family..........no doubt about it, imo.

I don't see Joe being around much. He will go back to LV once this calms down some, imo.

imo

I think Michael Jackson taught those children what he knew, Gentle.

[GentleBreeze]

http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke

An interesting read for all that wish to know about it.

He owned half of the catalog at the time of his death.

Look at the box on the left in the link. It states that the catalog is estimated to be worth 2 million.

I will have to go back and try to find that link again.

But from the article you have linked it stated this:

"Jackson's half ownership in ATV/Sony which owns the Beatles catalog estimated to be worth as much as $2 billion is held in a trust that shields it from his creditors."

Read more: http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke#ixzz0KgD9 WpRA&C

[Firehead11]

I will have to go back and try to find that link again.

But from the article you have linked it stated this:

"Jackson's half ownership in ATV/Sony which owns the Beatles catalog estimated to be worth as much as $2 billion is held in a trust that shields it from his creditors."

Read more: http://entrepreneur-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_michael_jackson_could_never_be_broke#ixzz0KgD9 WpRA&C


oops ! A slight difference.......that makes more sense to me, 2 billion.

[Firehead11]

Well from watching the memorial service yesterday, it appears that the children are very close to the Jackson family. Most children are natural in their emotions, so I believe what I saw.

Whether his body was in the casket or not, the family would know. No one else needs that information. The people were there topay their respect and to be a part of history. Everything went well and nothing drastic happened that some stated would.

May he rest in peace.

[Brattnt]

Well from watching the memorial service yesterday, it appears that the children are very close to the Jackson family. Most children are natural in their emotions, so I believe what I saw.

Whether his body was in the casket or not, the family would know. No one else needs that information. The people were there topay their respect and to be a part of history. Everything went well and nothing drastic happened that some stated would.

May he rest in peace.

I agree Fire...It was very obvious to me that those children love, and are loved by the Jackson family...:wub:

MOO

[Firehead11]

For those who seek information on Jackson, his life, his music and other info that one might want, I am supplying a link for your use:

http://www.google.com

[Tokyo Rose]

Those children have a right to know their birth mother. That's going to be in their minds no matter what. No telling what they know now. They will know their father was married to their mother. I believe DR should have visiting rights and see where it goes from there. She needs to answer some of their questions.

If their biological father was not MJ, that will be hard on them for sure.

As for Blanket, he can meet his birth mother if he choses to do so and reaches the age of majority.

When those children marry and have children of their own, I believe they need to know their background for any problem health wise that might apply.

jmo

[mrsmcgoo]

:scared:

To those that were looking on Ebay for the MJ Memorial Program yesterday....

I got a message from Ebay warning me someone had tried to access my account there. It also says it was from the seller of these programs. I didn't buy anything from this seller, just asked them a question via Ebay. I do see that the seller is now not a member too!

I went in and changed my password as a percaution.

[Tokyo Rose]

------------

Where was he for the other 3 years?

That's a good question. I thought he was in Bahrain all that time. I never heard anything about where he was other than that.

[mrsmcgoo]

That's a good question. I thought he was in Bahrain all that time. I never heard anything about where he was other than that.

I thought I heard England at some point, not sure how long though.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Those children have a right to know their birth mother. That's going to be in their minds no matter what. No telling what they know now. They will know their father was married to their mother. I believe DR should have visiting rights and see where it goes from there. She needs to answer some of their questions.

If their biological father was not MJ, that will be hard on them for sure.

As for Blanket, he can meet his birth mother if he choses to do so and reaches the age of majority.

When those children marry and have children of their own, I believe they need to know their background for any problem health wise that might apply.

jmo


How can Blanket meet his birth mother. MJ said he did not know who the surrogate mother was. She must have wanted to keep it very confidential.

imo

[Tokyo Rose]

I thought I heard England at some point, not sure how long though.

JMO

I think he had very little or no contact with his family after that trial ended in 2006. I don't believe the children are as familiar with the family as some say.

JMO

[mrsmcgoo]

I think he had very little or no contact with his family after that trial ended in 2006. I don't believe the children are as familiar with the family as some say.

JMO

I honestly don't know. I do think that Katherine is a very caring person, more so after the memorial and she was specifically mentioned. The children do have Nanny Grace close by, she was at the memorial. I feel the combination of Katherine and Grace will be good for the children. They seemed very comfortable standing next to their uncles and aunts. I didn't notice any obvious body language that would indicate they were otherwise yesterday, and I was watching that closely. Just my opinion though. lol

[GentleBreeze]

oops ! A slight difference.......that makes more sense to me, 2 billion.

That kind of money is unbelievable to grasp and MJ knew the kids would have that to rely on where it couldn't be touched by creditors.

He will have plenty to pay off his bills on just the vast amount of money being made since his death and it will go on just like it has gone on for almost 32 years for Elvis' estate. If they sell any memorabilia it is now going through the roof. There are many many ardent die hard fans of MJs across the world that have plenty of money.

imo

[who_is_it]

That's a good question. I thought he was in Bahrain all that time. I never heard anything about where he was other than that.

at the beginning of 2006: Ireland. There he lived for a while and recorded new songs together with Will.I.am.

[Tokyo Rose]

How can Blanket meet his birth mother. MJ said he did not know who the surrogate mother was. She must have wanted to keep it very confidential.

imo

Come on. You believe MJ didn't know who the surrogate was? In the Bashir (sp) documentary he had two different answers to that. One was he knew the surrogate and had a relationship with her. The other was he didn't know the surrogate.

If nothing else, he would know who he paid. There certainly must be legal papers written on the arrangement.

Blanket will be told, I would hope, or he will be able to search it out himself.

JMO

[*Serenity*]

Those children have a right to know their birth mother. That's going to be in their minds no matter what. No telling what they know now. They will know their father was married to their mother. I believe DR should have visiting rights and see where it goes from there. She needs to answer some of their questions.

If their biological father was not MJ, that will be hard on them for sure.

As for Blanket, he can meet his birth mother if he choses to do so and reaches the age of majority.

When those children marry and have children of their own, I believe they need to know their background for any problem health wise that might apply.

jmo

There is a time and place for everything, and right now is a very poor time in their lives to be placed in her care. She has shown no interest in them or being a part of their lives, so if she really wants to get to know them, they should have the right to speak for themselves, they are certainly old enough at this time.

I believe the Judge will be the ultimate decision maker, and a wise one would look at her history and listen to the children.

:)

They can always find out DR medical history, and I have to wonder how much DR knows about her biological parents medical history.
She was adopted as well.

[Tokyo Rose]

------------

I'm sure the mother will come forward very soon. jmo


I'm thinking the same thing myself. Although MJ said the birth mother didn't know who her baby went to, I find that hard to believe. I don't see how legal arrangements (paperwork) could have MJ as anonymous.

jmo

[*Serenity*]

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ Michael Jackson's family has given the LAPD a list of doctors they believe may have misprescribed drugs to Michael Jackson -- and we've learned Dr. Arnold Klein is on that list.

http://www.tmz.com/

[Firehead11]

These children are 12, 10 and 7. They have not been involved with any BIRTH PARENT for any length of time. These older children should be asked IF they want to be involved with their BIRTH mother. Those children also have THE RIGHT to know how much MONEY DR got paid over the years. As of right now, the children should not be seperated from each other and definately not from the only family they have known all during these years.

[Firehead11]

I'm thinking the same thing myself. Although MJ said the birth mother didn't know who her baby went to, I find that hard to believe. I don't see how legal arrangements (paperwork) could have MJ as anonymous.

jmo

Ever give up a child for adoption?

[who_is_it]

By all respect for the beautiful memorial I'm disappointed that no one except the Congress woman and Rev. Al Sharpton took the chance of one billion spectators to speak out more critical. What the Motown man said -- that Michael always had a beautiful life -- is untrue and hypocritical. Michael was tortured in a fight against wrong allegations and beaten up by the media over years. No one of the speakers dared to deliver facts and the truth and critisize false and sensational media reports. -- Inappropriate for a memorial? Imo no. A lot of media dished the dirt on Michael two days after his death -- some of the reports misleading, selective or even wrong. Why would it have been inappropriate to beat back with the truth?

[Tokyo Rose]

There is a time and place for everything, and right now is a very poor time in their lives to be placed in her care. She has shown no interest in them or being a part of their lives, so if she really wants to get to know them, they should have the right to speak for themselves, they are certainly old enough at this time.

I believe the Judge will be the ultimate decision maker, and a wise one would look at her history and listen to the children.

:)

They can always find out DR medical history, and I have to wonder how much DR knows about her biological parents medical history.
She was adopted as well.

It has changed for adopted children. They now can search out their biological parents easier and the same goes for DR. Actually she may know all that already.

Here is my point. I don't believe the judge will make a decision based on what the children may or may not want, at least until the children get to know their mother through visitations. They are not old enough to make the decision.

I never said placed in her care solely. There will be background checks on everyone and home visits no doubt. There will be much to take into consideration.

I heard on the news a while back, the children's services had launched an investigation as to the children maybe being around drugs in their father's house. I haven't heard anything since, but am checking for a link.

jmo

[CinderL.]

I'm thinking the same thing myself. Although MJ said the birth mother didn't know who her baby went to, I find that hard to believe. I don't see how legal arrangements (paperwork) could have MJ as anonymous.

jmo

Even if he was anonymous, it would be easy to figure out now that the hospital has been published. How many women would have given birth at that hospital on that day, and have an attny. come and get the baby?

[*Serenity*]

This article is very well written, and a good read.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/07/remembering-michael-jackson-the-service-is-a-thriller.html

[Firehead11]

By all respect for the beautiful memorial I'm disappointed that no one except the Congress woman and Rev. Al Sharpton took the chance of one billion spectators to speak out more critical. What the Motown man said -- that Michael always had a beautiful life -- is untrue and hypocritical. Michael was tortured in a fight against wrong allegations and beaten up by the media over years. No one of the speakers dared to deliver facts and the truth (not so nice for some others...) and critisize false and sensational media reports. -- Inappropriate for a memorial? Imo no. A lot of media dished the dirt on Michael two days after his death -- some of the reports misleading, selective or even wrong. Why would it have been inappropriate to beat back with the truth?

The memorial service was not the place to bring up all that BS. Just as this board was not the place yesterday to do the same. His children, sitting in the front row, already know the truth. That is what matters.

You are never going to change public opinion of what he did and didn't do. I don't know if people would even believe the boys who did accuse Jackson of it IF they would come out and said they lied.

[CinderL.]

http://www.tmz.com/

As much as Kline protests, I think he is up to his neck in this whole thing.

[*Serenity*]

As much as Kline protests, I think he is up to his neck in this whole thing.

I think he was on GMA this morning, and on tmz website they have a short clip of him, and very few details. I think that was today... lol

[Tokyo Rose]

Ever give up a child for adoption?

Really, that is a personal question. No comment on a message board.

[CinderL.]

I think he was on GMA this morning, and on tmz website they have a short clip of him, and very few details. I think that was today... lol

I didn't see him, but read about what he said. I am not buying it. But, time will tell. :shrug:

[*Serenity*]

"How am I going to prescribe Diprivan when I don't know how to use it?"

Klein said Jackson suffered from lupus. "And then I had to deal with vitiligo, the loss of pigment, and that was also a very traumatic thing to do, because they are both autoimmune diseases ... and so, I had to go through this whole process with him by keeping him looking relatively normal."





http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ktla-jackson-doctor,0,6065410.story

[Tokyo Rose]

I didn't see him, but read about what he said. I am not buying it. But, time will tell. :shrug:


I did see him. He looked and talked like he has some sort of physical disorder. When told it has been speculated he could be the biological father of the children, he answered to the best of his knowledge he didn't think so. jmo no link.

[mrsmcgoo]

It has changed for adopted children. They now can search out their biological parents easier and the same goes for DR. Actually she may know all that already.

Here is my point. I don't believe the judge will make a decision based on what the children may or may not want, at least until the children get to know their mother through visitations. They are not old enough to make the decision.

I never said placed in her care solely. There will be background checks on everyone and home visits no doubt. There will be much to take into consideration.

I heard on the news a while back, the children's services had launched an investigation as to the children maybe being around drugs in their father's house. I haven't heard anything since, but am checking for a link.

jmo


I was under the impression that DR had her parental rights restored back around 2006. Not sure of date. This to me would mean that she would have visitation with the children, however she didn't follow up with that. This is just my gut feeling. I don't think she wanted to be a mother than, or now. I think her intentions are purely financial and that sickens me because the children deserve better. They need stability after losing one parent.

JMO

[CinderL.]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ktla-jackson-doctor,0,6065410.story

From that article it says Dr. Murray is an anesthesiologist. Where did they get that information? I never heard that. Anyone else?

"Medical experts, however, point to the fact that Murray is an an anesthesiologist who could have had access to propofol -- a very potent surgical anesthesia that was reportedly found in Jackson's rented home."

[Tokyo Rose]

I was under the impression that DR had her parental rights restored back around 2006. Not sure of date. This to me would mean that she would have visitation with the children, however she didn't follow up with that. This is just my gut feeling. I don't think she wanted to be a mother than, or now. I think her intentions are purely financial and that sickens me because the children deserve better. They need stability after losing one parent.

JMO

I don't know what would give them the best stability if they haven't been around MJ's family much either. That's for the court to decide.

Wasn't DR more or less kept from seeing the children per MJ? Who really knows what went on between them after her rights were restored. If he didn't want her around she probably would have stayed away.

I believe she has all the money she could ever want right now without going after more.

jmo

[CinderL.]

I did see him. He looked and talked like he has some sort of physical disorder. When told it has been speculated he could be the biological father of the children, he answered to the best of his knowledge he didn't think so. jmo no link.

I just saw the clip on TMZ. He did sound strange.

[Tokyo Rose]

From that article it says Dr. Murray is an anesthesiologist. Where did they get that information? I never heard that. Anyone else?

"Medical experts, however, point to the fact that Murray is an an anesthesiologist who could have had access to propofol -- a very potent surgical anesthesia that was reportedly found in Jackson's rented home."

I looked up his background and he is a cardiologist. I googled him. jmo

[CinderL.]

I looked up his background and he is a cardiologist. jmo He isn't even board certified in cardiology. As, one of the news programs asked last night.....Who would pay $150,000. a month for a non-board certified Dr.? From what I have read, he was certified until 2008, he took the boards to renew, and didn't pass.

[who_is_it]

What did the media ever say that was not true?

A LOT. Just take one of the latest examples: Grace, the nanny, stated on her own website that she has never spoken to the Times UK.

[mrsmcgoo]

I don't know what would give them the best stability if they haven't been around MJ's family much either. That's for the court to decide.

Wasn't DR more or less kept from seeing the children per MJ? Who really knows what went on between them after her rights were restored. If he didn't want her around she probably would have stayed away.

I believe she has all the money she could ever want right now without going after more.

jmo

I always thought that DR had decided on her own that she wasn't going to be a parent. Just because of what she said in an interview about having the children for Michael. They weren't her children she stated. I didn't feel she was preasured to say those things, as she was all alone and it was quite a while after the marriage had ended.

You are right though, who knows really. There could be so much more to this than we know.

I just pray the children are allowed to be children and have a happy, secure life.

JMO

[who_is_it]

I have posted this 10 times here on the threads... -- an article which was published BEFORE Michael's death:

Michael Jackson Mystery Dr. Visits

"So for the last few months we've been catching Michael Jackson leaving a medical building in Beverly Hills. Now we know who Jackson has been seeing.

Jackson has been going to the office of Dr. Arnie Klein -- dermatologist to the stars -- and he's been going there several times a week lately."

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/18/michael-jackson-jacko-dr-arnie-klein-arnold-dermatologist-vitiligo-child-jmolestation/

Back then there were skin cancer rumors all over the web... but the "mystery visits" could have had other reasons, right?

[Ice Cycle]

I always thought that DR had decided on her own that she wasn't going to be a parent. Just because of what she said in an interview about having the children for Michael. They weren't her children she stated. I didn't feel she was preasured to say those things, as she was all alone and it was quite a while after the marriage had ended.

You are right though, who knows really. There could be so much more to this than we know.

I just pray the children are allowed to be children and have a happy, secure life.

JMO

I don't know and this is just MO but I think their is a uncanny resemblance to Blanket and the oldest son Prince. I know they are not suppose to be blood related but they just look alike to me, especially the eyes. Though why he would not want it know if he was the Bio or DR to both is beyond me.

[*Serenity*]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/08/barbara-walters-spy-cam-at-jackson-memorial/

[CinderL.]

I don't know and this is just MO but I think their is a uncanny resemblance to Blanket and the oldest son Prince. I know they are not suppose to be blood related but they just look alike to me, especially the eyes. Though why he would not want it know if he was the Bio or DR to both is beyond me.

I thought there was a resemblance also. :ohmy:

[Firehead11]

Really, that is a personal question. No comment on a message board.

Yes, it was a personal question. Your choice not to answer it but if you have not experienced how adoption agencies and lawyers can keep something confidential, how can you have such a negative opinion of it?

Lawyers have to keep things confidential by law. Of course some break that law.

Adoption agencies have to keep if confidential until the child becomes legal age. Then it is the child's option to be able to contact the birth parent.

Oh, and I speak from experience.

[*Serenity*]

Not a member of any MJ fan sites, but one thing I noticed is they have excellent document retention -- going all the way back to 1999:

This was the original case where DR asked for her parental rights to be terminated. She did have them restored on appeal because it is said you cannot terminate parental rights without the involvement of DCFS.

Here are the original documents though back in 2001 when she requested parental termination. Interesting read:

At the Oct 17 2001 hearing when Rowe was represented by attorney Iris Finsilver, she said the last time she had even seen the children was almost a year before the hearing. She also testified that she never had so much as a desire to call them over the phone.

Before she made the decision to completely terminate her parental rights, Rowe thought about making the decision for a year. The actual transcript is provided but you have to download the pdf file to read it.

From the hearing transcript:

http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-related/daming-docs-from-debbie-rowe-parental-rights-termination-hearing.html

Thank you for your 'research' once again Athena. :)


I enjoy how you seek the truth, regardless if the truth sheds the good, bad, or uglies.

[*Serenity*]

What else is new? In the past decade+ I have lost much respect for the media. Most of them are just plain unethical. JMO

Oh yea.... regardless of what they were told about photos, video, she proceeded to invade the privacy of the family, and the children. I like how the article states, others were doing it as well. Sounds like children explaining to their parents why they did something wrong.


Exactly why Michael tried to protect them from the papparazi.

[CinderL.]

Getting back to the Diprivan..in this article Nurse Lee gives some rather curious statements she atributes to Michael..going back 3 months prior to his death...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ktla-jackson-doctor,0,6065410.story?page=3

He said, 'I don't like drugs. I don't want any drugs. My doctor told me this is a safe medicine,"' Lee said. The next day, she said she brought a copy of the Physician's Desk Reference to show him the section on Diprivan.

"He said, 'No, my doctor said it's safe. It works quick and it's safe as long as somebody's here to monitor me and wake me up. It's going be OK," Lee said. She said he did not give the doctor's name.

She mentons this a few times..that Michael said "His Dr. told him this drug was safe"...Wonder which Dr. that was..Dr. Murray maybe?..I also did hear on a news show, a Chef that worked at the house, noting that Dr. Murray was witnessed taking large tanks (O2 Maybe) out the back door....Why would this Cardiogist need Oxygen at the house for his patient?...Michael wasnt a COPD patient was he?? I am sorry..but my hinky meter keeps going off regarding this Dr.?! I have a feeling he had given this "Sleep Therapy" to MJ more often than JUST that fateful night..IMO anyway..

LMS

I agree, and the saddest thing is that I heard one Dr. say this drug doesn't even give you a good sleep. You never get into REM.

[Firehead11]

ITA. Who are we to want to know who they are anyway? That is up to the children to seek out if they want to. Information should NOT be made public and this is exactly why privacy laws prevail. For DR to come out and announce to the world that MJ was not the bio father leads me to believe she is not looking out for the best interests of the children. This was a very, very low thing for her to do. Mothers tend to want to protect their children. Personally, I am totally disgusted by what she did and I hope the court agrees. JMO

Was it DR or DD that announced it? I heard both ways. And I agree, most mothers act in the best interest of the child, but I really do not consider her a mother/mommy. A birth mother yes but that is it.

[CinderL.]

Nice to post with you too:laugh:

The only problem is that Michael Jackson died on Dr. Murray's watch!!

LMS:sneaky:

Yes, IMO that is a very big problem for Dr. Murray.

[spydernweb2006]

I dont know if this is real but it seems real to me:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj9DgeLmzac&NR=1


I just dont see Larry King and CNN as doing something to fool the public. It DID give me chills.


JMHO

Hugs,
Spyder

[CinderL.]

And that was Dr Murray's misfortune. :sad:

imo

Yes, it was. Who do you think started the IV? IF in fact this is the drug that killed MJ.

[Nic99]

Yes, we know about your hinky meter and this doctor.

There were many doctors. That's what addicts do. Look for doctors to give them medications. Dr. Murray was probably the last in a long line of doctors who were manipulated by Jackson.

moo

I disagree, drug addicts look for drug-pushers. Doctors are supposed to be trusted, along with their prescriptions, drugs, etc. They are supposed to help you,not otherwise. The big thing about a Doctor is that they are qualified to prescribe the appropriate drug for you; not otherwise, money or not, that is the whole point of a doctor imo. MJ was clearly not 'helped' by his qualified Doctor imo.

[*Serenity*]

Nice to post with you too:laugh:

The only problem is that Michael Jackson died on Dr. Murray's watch!!

LMS:sneaky:


I'm still way curious as to why the oxygen tanks were at the home.
Sounds like this was going on for quite some time, and after listening to the chef's interview, it is apparent Dr.M was in the picture longer than originally stated.

IMO
JMO
MOO



:)

[Debb]

Please excuse me if this has already been discussed.
Who were the women on the stage standing around Paris when she spoke yesterday. Was it LaToya in the hat? Was the oldest sister up there? Who was the woman standing in front of who I think was Janet?

[*Serenity*]

Please excuse me if this has already been discussed.
Who were the women on the stage standing around Paris when she spoke yesterday. Was it LaToya in the hat? Was the oldest sister up there? Who was the woman standing in front of who I think was Janet?

Janet is the one next to Paris, LaToya is behind with the hat, and I'm not 100% sure but the other lady may have been Rebbie.

[*Serenity*]

MJ became familiar with this drug by the anesthesiologist who traveled with him during the History tour who probably is the one who told him it was safe and that was his last tour. I would venture to guess that MJ may not have used it again until this upcoming tour since he did not know of a doctor who would do it thus the call to the nurse. The timeline definitely points to Dr. Murray. JMO

"Adding to the suggestion that Diprivan (Propofol) may have been instrumental in Michael Jackson's death is the revelation that during Jackson's HIStory Tour in the mid-90's, an anesthesiologist traveled with the star. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta spoke with the anesthesiologist, who admitted working with Michael Jackson at one time but refused to comment on his involvement with the fallen singer."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1909876/michael_jackson_was_diprivan_propofol.html?cat=49


I remember reading about this, and this was during the same time frame they had the IV Pole at his hotel room.

Thanks again for information with a link attached.

:)

[Nic99]

I'm sorry but multimillionaire celebrities who are addicted to prescription drugs don't have to look for pushers. They can afford to find Dr's to prescribe for them. And many doctors, apparently, are willing to do so.

Anything Dr. Murray may have done was done before.

imo

A Doctor should never have prescribed something dangerous to their patient; money or no money. That is the duty of the Doctor, to care for their patient, not otherwise. Anything otherwise is a criminal offence by the Doctor and he or they should be punished severely.

[flipflop]

I have a question. Kind of trivial but I was wondering if anyone knew why MJ had that tape wrapped around his fingertips. I noticed it in the Bashir video and also in one of the pictures in People magazine this week.

[CinderL.]

IMO MJ had a sickness -- he was addicted to drugs that were legitimately used for pain. Doctors are supposed to adhere to their code of ethics. They issued prescriptions in other names, and some of the prescriptions were filled with NO names which also implicates the pharmacies involved. These doctors are worse than drug-pushers who sell illegal drugs because they are supposed to be ethical. I think every doctor's name involved should be plastered on the front page of each newspaper and the law needs to be enforced. This does not just happen to celebrities but to ALL Americans. It is a national crisis. JMHO

My friend who works in an ER, said they have the same people come in time after time, with back pain, headaches, etc. They have to give them pain meds. After they come in a few times, they are referred to counseling, or a counselor is brought in to speak with them at the time. These people usually make the rounds to all of the ER's in the area.

[mrsmcgoo]

Snipped from Athena's post bolded: ( Hope you don't mind...just wanted to save space! )

Before she made the decision to completely terminate her parental rights, Rowe thought about making the decision for a year. The actual transcript is provided but you have to download the pdf file to read it.

From the hearing transcript:

http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-related/daming-docs-from-debbie-rowe-parental-rights-termination-hearing.html[/B]

Thank you for looking this up. I do believe that DR has shot herself in the foot as far as any future with her children. I am so pleased that documents such as these exist so we can see her cold feelings toward her children.....

Children don't need to ever see a parent stating such cold things about them.

If there is more to this story, we will hear, but from the info we do have, DR is not mother material in my eyes.

JMO

[Nic99]

IMO MJ had a sickness -- he was addicted to drugs that were legitimately used for pain. Anyone that has used painkillers know that tolerance buildup occurs when taking a certain drug for too long and you need more and more. Doctors are supposed to adhere to their code of ethics. They issued prescriptions in other names, and some of the prescriptions were filled with NO names which also implicates the pharmacies involved. These doctors are worse than drug-pushers who sell illegal drugs because they are supposed to be ethical. I think every doctor's name involved should be plastered on the front page of each newspaper and the law needs to be enforced; they need to be charged and jailed just like a drug pusher. This does not just happen to celebrities but to ALL Americans. It is a national crisis. JMHO

Thanks for the information. ITA with you; these Doctors should be named and shamed, so people are aware that they are not really Doctors in the 'qualified' sense at all, but corrupt and are actually killers in the bold sense of the word... Such a real shame that this was ever allowed to happen in the first place.

[*Serenity*]

I have a question. Kind of trivial but I was wondering if anyone knew why MJ had that tape wrapped around his fingertips. I noticed it in the Bashir video and also in one of the pictures in People magazine this week.


LOL

I have wondered the exact same thing.


Curiousity..!

[CinderL.]

I have a question. Kind of trivial but I was wondering if anyone knew why MJ had that tape wrapped around his fingertips. I noticed it in the Bashir video and also in one of the pictures in People magazine this week.


Someone said it was to cover up the vitiligo which often starts on the fingers. I know it did with my sister-in-law.

[Tokyo Rose]

I'm still way curious as to why the oxygen tanks were at the home.
Sounds like this was going on for quite some time, and after listening to the chef's interview, it is apparent Dr.M was in the picture longer than originally stated.

IMO
JMO
MOO



:)

Was the chef telling the truth? Was the nanny telling the truth? I think posters put way too much faith in this nanny as to her ability with the children and her truthfulness.

She is only the nanny and not in anyway connected to these children otherwise. A nanny can be replaced and is never crucial to children's stability.

jmo

[flipflop]

Thanks guys, for the fingertip/tape answers. I had just been wondering.

[CinderL.]

Snipped from Athena's post bolded: ( Hope you don't mind...just wanted to save space! )

Before she made the decision to completely terminate her parental rights, Rowe thought about making the decision for a year. The actual transcript is provided but you have to download the pdf file to read it.

From the hearing transcript:

http://site2.mjeol.com/mj-related/daming-docs-from-debbie-rowe-parental-rights-termination-hearing.html[/B]

Thank you for looking this up. I do believe that DR has shot herself in the foot as far as any future with her children. I am so pleased that documents such as these exist so we can see her cold feelings toward her children.....

Children don't need to ever see a parent stating such cold things about them.

If there is more to this story, we will hear, but from the info we do have, DR is not mother material in my eyes.

JMO

I don't really see her as cold. I don't think she ever wanted children, and I think she loved MJ very much. Maybe obsessively. I think she would have done anything he wanted. I don't really think she likes kids much.

[Tokyo Rose]

To cover white splotches on his skin from vitiligo.

But he was entirely white at that time. Why worry about the ends of the fingers?

[GentleBreeze]

I'm sorry but multimillionaire celebrities who are addicted to prescription drugs don't have to look for pushers. They can afford to find Dr's to prescribe for them. And many doctors, apparently, are willing to do so.

Anything Dr. Murray may have done was done before.

imo

I don't think you have to be a millionaire though to get these prescribed drugs since 25 million people in our country are addicted to prescription drugs with many many deaths occurring yearly and the majority of them aren't stars. We just hear about their deaths more because it makes the news.

I don't think it is just a rich problem....... I think it is an epidemic that affects all walks of life.

imo

[mrsmcgoo]

I also think the boys eyes are similiar! Was thinking that yesterday actually.

Also, did you guys notice how Janet is clearly holding back tears as Paris is speaking yesterday? She looks like she could be biting her lip to keep control. :crying:

[ScoobyDoo]

And that was Dr Murray's misfortune. :sad:

imo


His misfortune? The victims of misfortune were Michael and his three children.. as well as his family and friends. I have had to battle with many doctors to provide appropriate use of a controlled substance for my daughter, because they are so unwilling and fearful to prescribe or even use in the hospital setting, the use of certain drugs.

Dr Murry, on the other hand, is reported to have financial issues, and he took a position which paid $150,000.00 per month. Although the findings aren't conclusive yet, it appears that he was the Doctor treating MJ, that drugs were likely used that would have to be taken illegally from a locked hospital supply unit, and then would have to administer this dangerous drug in a manner that has no legitimate use in a home setting. And further.. he had a professional obligation to monitor the patient (Michael) to assure he was still breathing, and it appears that he failed to do that. The doctors motives, were for financial gain... or so it seems.

If I walked into a hospital and stole dangerous drugs and then administered it to someone, who then died, I assure you I would be held accoutable, and so should each doctor who is found to have contributed in some form to the demise of M. Jackson.

imo...of course.

[CinderL.]

I don't think you have to be a millionaire though to get these prescribed drugs since 25 million people in our country are addicted to prescription drugs with many many deaths occurring yearly and the majority of them aren't stars. We just hear about their deaths more because it makes the news.

I don't think it is just a rich problem....... I think it is an epidemic that affects all walks of life.

imo

That is true. Many pharmacies don't even carry Oxycodon anymore because of fear of robberies. They will put a sign on the door stating they don't carry it.

[who_is_it]

Was the chef telling the truth? Was the nanny telling the truth? I think posters put way too much faith in this nanny as to her ability with the children and her truthfulness.

She is only the nanny and not in anyway connected to these children otherwise. A nanny can be replaced and is never crucial to children's stability.

jmo

Which chef do you refer to? To whom did he speak out... and what?

[GentleBreeze]

But he was entirely white at that time. Why worry about the ends of the fingers?

Was he? I know Cicely Tyson said yesterday that is why he started wearing the one glove because the Vitiligo was very noticeable on that hand.

imo

[lilismom]

I also think the boys eyes are similiar! Was thinking that yesterday actually.

Also, did you guys notice how Janet is clearly holding back tears as Paris is speaking yesterday? She looks like she could be biting her lip to keep control. :crying:

Yep and I think I looked exactly like that thru most of it!

Any possibility that all three kids were conceived using the same sperm? Was Prince Michael II's mother a surrogate and just didn't know who the parents would be?

IMO,

[CinderL.]

His misfortune? The victims of misfortune were Michael and his three children.. as well as his family and friends. I have had to battle with many doctors to provide appropriate use of a controlled substance for my daughter, because they are so unwilling and fearful to prescribe or even use in the hospital setting, the use of certain drugs.

Dr Murry, on the other hand, is reported to have financial issues, and he took a position which paid $150,000.00 per month. Although the findings aren't conclusive yet, it appears that he was the Doctor treating MJ, that drugs were likely used that would have to be taken illegally from a locked hospital supply unit, and then would have to administer this dangerous drug in a manner that has no legitimate use in a home setting. And further.. he had a professional obligation to monitor the patient (Michael) to assure he was still breathing, and it appears that he failed to do that. The doctors motives, were for financial gain... or so it seems.

If I walked into a hospital and stole dangerous drugs and then administered it to someone, who then died, I assure you I would be held accoutable, and so should each doctor who is found to have contributed in some form to the demise of M. Jackson.

imo...of course.

And, I agree with you.

[ScoobyDoo]

I'm sorry but multimillionaire celebrities who are addicted to prescription drugs don't have to look for pushers. They can afford to find Dr's to prescribe for them. And many doctors, apparently, are willing to do so.

Anything Dr. Murray may have done was done before.

imo


Although I would choose other words to describe Rush Limbaugh, rather than a celebrity, he indeed resorted to fueling his oxycontin addiction by buying it off the streets from a pusher.

[trucrimegal]

Which chef do you refer to? To whom did he speak out... and what?

I'm not sure but I think this is the link that refers to MJ's chef and what he saw at the house concerning oxygen tanks. It is from Radar Online:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/exclusive-video-interview-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-chef-reveals-bombshell-about-singer%E2%80%99s

[ScoobyDoo]

And, I agree with you.

Wow! Really? Planets must be colliding. haha just kidding.
:tongueside:

[CinderL.]

Wow! Really? Planets must be colliding. haha just kidding.
:tongueside:

OH come on, I think I have agreed with you before. Right? :laugh:

[GentleBreeze]

His misfortune? The victims of misfortune were Michael and his three children.. as well as his family and friends. I have had to battle with many doctors to provide appropriate use of a controlled substance for my daughter, because they are so unwilling and fearful to prescribe or even use in the hospital setting, the use of certain drugs.

Dr Murry, on the other hand, is reported to have financial issues, and he took a position which paid $150,000.00 per month. Although the findings aren't conclusive yet, it appears that he was the Doctor treating MJ, that drugs were likely used that would have to be taken illegally from a locked hospital supply unit, and then would have to administer this dangerous drug in a manner that has no legitimate use in a home setting. And further.. he had a professional obligation to monitor the patient (Michael) to assure he was still breathing, and it appears that he failed to do that. The doctors motives, were for financial gain... or so it seems.

If I walked into a hospital and stole dangerous drugs and then administered it to someone, who then died, I assure you I would be held accountable, and so should each doctor who is found to have contributed in some form to the demise of M. Jackson.

imo...of course.

I totally agree. I think, like Elvis...Michael trusted doctors. All MJ knew was he wanted to sleep. Those who knew him well said he was a perfectionist when it came to preforming so his mind probably never rested one second thinking what needed to be done and just how it was to be done.

IMO, the doctor who brought him down so he could sleep could not bring him up again and that is when this tragedy occurred. Even the doctor was to have said that he stepped out of the room. An anesthesiologist is to monitor the patient at all times because things just like this can happen.

imo

[mrsmcgoo]

Yep and I think I looked exactly like that thru most of it!

Any possibility that all three kids were conceived using the same sperm? Was Prince Michael II's mother a surrogate and just didn't know who the parents would be?

IMO,

Sounds very possible to me.

The children are beautiful regardless, Paris is a stunning child.

JMO

[Tokyo Rose]

Which chef do you refer to? To whom did he speak out... and what?


MJ's chef. He said he saw Dr. Murray with oxygen tanks at the house.
He recently came forward for his 15 minuets of fame.
jmo

[ScoobyDoo]

Well it's not an exact replica. :rolleyes:

It's another drug addict dangling a baby from a balcony.

And frankly, I don't think that drug addicts make very good "daddys."

That is my opinion.


Then you are talking about a large portion this country's fathers and mothers, not just Michael Jackson. At least he had staff to watch his kids, where most don't.

[lilismom]

Also think about this -- it said that MJ took drugs for pain and at night was "treated" with the diprivan. This affect would be bringing him up during the day and bringing him down at night.

I seriously doubt the children were ever aware -- MJ was a full-functioning drug addict. I know alcoholics who are also full-functioning.


That and Paris clearly and tearfully told us what she thought about her Daddy. :crying: He loved and them and was loved by them. At his end, that's all that really matters.

IMO,
Lilismom

[ScoobyDoo]

Also think about this -- it said that MJ took drugs for pain and at night was "treated" with the diprivan. This affect would be bringing him up during the day and bringing him down at night.

I seriously doubt the children were ever aware -- MJ was a full-functioning drug addict and doesn't mean his behavior changed. I know alcoholics who are also full-functioning; work full-time and hold high-level exeuctive jobs.


He devoted his life to his kids. There is no doubt in my mind that he was a wonderful father, in every respect.

[Tokyo Rose]

Also think about this -- it said that MJ took drugs for pain and at night was "treated" with the diprivan. This affect would be bringing him up during the day and bringing him down at night.

I seriously doubt the children were ever aware -- MJ was a full-functioning drug addict and doesn't mean his behavior changed. I know alcoholics who are also full-functioning; work full-time and hold high-level exeuctive jobs.

They can also make mistakes with their drugs and accidentally OD themselves.

This doesn't mean doctors can't be held libel for over prescribing unless one doctor doesn't know about the other as when someone doctor shops. jmo

[CinderL.]

He devoted his life to his kids. There is no doubt in my mind that he was a wonderful father, in every respect.

This is were we part ways. I have no doubt that he loved his children, or that his children loved him, but, he was warned repeatedly that Propofol was a very dangerous drug, If he took this drug after the warnings, he was not thinking of his children enough. Which is true of most addicts, I guess.

[kennedy06]

May I ask those of you that have been able to follow this a little closer what drugs was he on, I had heard about a rehab at one point. I am aware of talk about this drug used for putting one out in surgery but was he using other prescribed medications?

Edit-I just read the CNN link above. Wow sounds there was a lot going on with him.

[CinderL.]

Perhaps you are not aware that prescriptions were issued in OTHER NAMES as well as prescriptions filled with NO names. So who is the one who is supposed to take responsibility here?

Michael Jackson?

[Tokyo Rose]

Michael Jackson?

Well said.

[Nic99]

His misfortune? The victims of misfortune were Michael and his three children.. as well as his family and friends. I have had to battle with many doctors to provide appropriate use of a controlled substance for my daughter, because they are so unwilling and fearful to prescribe or even use in the hospital setting, the use of certain drugs.

Dr Murry, on the other hand, is reported to have financial issues, and he took a position which paid $150,000.00 per month. Although the findings aren't conclusive yet, it appears that he was the Doctor treating MJ, that drugs were likely used that would have to be taken illegally from a locked hospital supply unit, and then would have to administer this dangerous drug in a manner that has no legitimate use in a home setting. And further.. he had a professional obligation to monitor the patient (Michael) to assure he was still breathing, and it appears that he failed to do that. The doctors motives, were for financial gain... or so it seems.

If I walked into a hospital and stole dangerous drugs and then administered it to someone, who then died, I assure you I would be held accoutable, and so should each doctor who is found to have contributed in some form to the demise of M. Jackson.

imo...of course.

Great post; ITA with everything you have said. It is the Doctors who should be held accountable for a breach of trust imo.

[Tokyo Rose]

Not sure what he was actually taking as the toxicology report has not been released yet. However, LE found pain killers, anti-depressant medication and the diprivan which is an anaesthesia in his home.

All that medication around and the kids knew nothing about it? Hmmmm

[GentleBreeze]

I know this is not the same but some doctors are just too quick to hand out medication. When my son was younger he was diagnosed with ADD. We were referred to a specialist and interviewed. He had my son draw a picture (this was the very FIRST appointment we had). At the end of the session he prescribed ritalin -- and I never went back to that doctor. As it turned out my son learned to compensate for his learning disability and is now a dual Science major in college. NEVER took drugs

Our son, who never has gone to the doctor much...did one day with his back. The doctor gave him two prescriptions. He had them filled but thank God before he took any of them his wife looked them up on the internet and found when taken together there is a high risk of death.:cursing:

I shudder even to this day when I think about it. He took them back to the doctor and told him to keep them....he would rather have pain in his back than death and walked out and hasn't been back.

imo

[Nic99]

Well said.

The DOCTOR(s) who prescribed the drugs, obviously.

[TunaMelt]

I also think he just poo-pooed the nurse knowing he had done it before with no negative repercussions and really did believe it to be safe. :shrug:

If he thought that drug was safe, that's just typical of drug addict thinking.

They'll take any drug and tell themselves it's safe if they like its effects.

Addicts can convince themselves of anything if it has to do with taking or getting or using drugs.

[Callie]

And no incidents outside either. Thats a rare day in LA to have a big event without violence and mayhem. I am proud to live here today knowing that Michael Jackson finally was given the respect he earned and deserved.

Hi Scooby! :seeya:

I totally agree. He was a good person, but so badly misunderstood.

Love you, Michael. You've earned your wings.

[CinderL.]

The DOCTOR(s) who prescribed the drugs, obviously.

No one forced MJ to take any medications. Ultimately it is his responsibility. The Dr.'s are culpable. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Michael Jackson?

Is he a licensed medical doctor? Is he a licensed pharmacist?

imo

[CinderL.]

LOL -- MJ obviously did not issue the prescriptions. :rolleyes:

But, he took them. His body, his life, his responsibility. IMO

[Nic99]

But, he took them. His body, his life, his responsibility. IMO

Oh come on; you can't be serious. If I go to my Doctor, I have to trust in their professional judgement and I certainly can't be held responsible for the drugs they choose to prescribe me. That is their duty as a health professional and certainly not mine.

[lilismom]

But, he took them. His body, his life, his responsibility. IMO

I guess this is true to a point. Shouldn't the doctor(s) know better though? Did they all know and all look the other way? What about the pharmacies? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

IMO,
Lilismom

[TunaMelt]

Our son, who never has gone to the doctor much...did one day with his back. The doctor gave him two prescriptions. He had them filled but thank God before he took any of them his wife looked them up on the internet and found when taken together there is a high risk of death.:cursing:

I shudder even to this day when I think about it. He took them back to the doctor and told him to keep them....he would rather have pain in his back than death and walked out and hasn't been back.

imo

A lot of hospitals and doc offices are tied into one central computer that records test results automatically, and records prescriptions (no hard copies are given), and sends them to the pharmacies that are connected to their computer. There's only the slimmest of chances that a prescription can get by all the safeguards and checks in the computer system -- and the pharmacy system -- that a prescription that is not to be taken with another will be issued.

Or one that shouldn't be taken with one the patient is already taking -- can't be done. The prescription won't be filled.

What a shame your doctor wasn't a part of this kind of system; mistakes rarely occur.

[Firehead11]

One of my friends is a trama transport nurse. She never really followed all the Jackson stuff but she said she wanted to know two things. What was going to happen with the children and how the hell did Jackson get that drug in his house. She also stated that she almost lost a patient that was being transported last week due to that drug. It seems that the blood pressure bottoms out real fast and the patient has to be monitored very closely. While in transport she had to close and open the IV lines several times due to the blood pressure.

My theory, yeah doctor gave him an iv of this drug and went to get a sandwich or potty and just wasn't there when his blood pressure bottom out. I bet it happened in the past but it was being monitered by several people.

What will people think if the drug tests come normal except for the one drug? Won't a lott of people be shocked if that happens?

[Nic99]

One of my friends is a trama transport nurse. She never really followed all the Jackson stuff but she said she wanted to know two things. What was going to happen with the children and how the hell did Jackson get that drug in his house. She also stated that she almost lost a patient that was being transported last week due to that drug. It seems that the blood pressure bottoms out real fast and the patient has to be monitored very closely. While in transport she had to close and open the IV lines several times due to the blood pressure.

My theory, yeah doctor gave him an iv of this drug and went to get a sandwich or potty and just wasn't there when his blood pressure bottom out. I bet it happened in the past but it was being monitered by several people.

What will people think if the drug tests come normal except for the one drug? Won't a lott of people be shocked if that happens?

That is really worrying and unfortunately looks like being the truth imo. This was obviously a very dangerous drug and should have been closely monitored and probably never been allowed to be administered. Any responsible Doctor would not have allowed this to happen.

[legalmania]

I found this on CNN site: and IF true..once again would indicate he has received many "Sleep Therapy" treatments..Sorry for using that term..but it seems that is what Michael wanted.."SLEEP"!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/07/jackson.drugs/index.html

A source involved with the investigation into Jackson's death told CNN that Jackson had "numerous track marks" on his arms -- and that those marks "could certainly be consistent with the regular IV use of a drug, like Diprivan."

I really wait with baited breath for his final autopsy results..as it will explain or dispel much of the information out there..

LMS

I suffer from insomnia and I know what it's like to just want to sleep. I've tried taking prescription medications for sleep ,but the medications I take for lung disease overpowers the sleeping medications and I only get about 1 to 3 hours of sleep a night. I don't think I would go as far as Michael did to get sleep, but I wish they would come up with something that would knock me out safely.

[lilismom]

Of course you're right.

That's why I believed the nurse, Ms Lee, because the discussion she described was typical of an addict looking for his next fix.

imo

Didn't she also say something to the effect of you don't take this drug to get high, that it just knocks you out. So what "fix" other than sleep was he looking for with this particular drug?

IMO,
Lilismom

[CinderL.]

Oh come on; you can't be serious. If I go to my Doctor, I have to trust in their professional judgement and I certainly can't be held responsible for the drugs they choose to prescribe me. That is their duty as a health professional and certainly not mine.

Oh come on, are you saying that MJ didn't know exactly what he was taking? That he asked for drugs? He found unscrupulous Dr.'s that would do what he wanted. The Dr.s should be held accountable for any part they played, but, you can't tell me MJ, didn't know what he wanted. He bought them.

[ScoobyDoo]

If he thought that drug was safe, that's just typical of drug addict thinking.

They'll take any drug and tell themselves it's safe if they like its effects.

Addicts can convince themselves of anything if it has to do with taking or getting or using drugs.


Especially when his $150,000.00 a month doctor was giving it to him.

[Nic99]

First of all, an addict who is doctor shopping never tells a Dr that he has medication from another Dr. The addict lies and manipulates to get what he wants.

imo

Whatever happened to patient records. Okay, I live in the UK, but this is just too much. Maybe you need a whole new overhaul in your medical system if this is what is allowed to go on.

[ScoobyDoo]

Oh come on, are you saying that MJ didn't know exactly what he was taking? That he asked for drugs? He found unscrupulous Dr.'s that would do what he wanted. The Dr.s should be held accountable for any part they played, but, you can't tell me MJ, didn't know what he wanted. He bought them.

Michael Jackson has paid for his part. Now shall the others.

[Ice Cycle]

A lot of hospitals and doc offices are tied into one central computer that records test results automatically, and records prescriptions (no hard copies are given), and sends them to the pharmacies that are connected to their computer. There's only the slimmest of chances that a prescription can get by all the safeguards and checks in the computer system -- and the pharmacy system -- that a prescription that is not to be taken with another will be issued.

Or one that shouldn't be taken with one the patient is already taking -- can't be done. The prescription won't be filled.

What a shame your doctor wasn't a part of this kind of system; mistakes rarely occur.

I don't think central computer records are available in every state.
Not to mention that now days with the Internet- anyone can get anything and that would definitely apply to MJ.

[CinderL.]

I guess this is true to a point. Shouldn't the doctor(s) know better though? Did they all know and all look the other way? What about the pharmacies? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

IMO,
Lilismom

Of course they should be held accountable. Everyone who was involved. My point was that ultimately it was MJ, who wanted, and took the pills, or whatever it was he took.

[TunaMelt]

I guess this is true to a point. Shouldn't the doctor(s) know better though? Did they all know and all look the other way? What about the pharmacies? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

IMO,
Lilismom

The doctor relies on the patient to tell them the whole truth about what drugs they are taking or have taken.

A doctor's only as good as the information he's been given. Pharmacists too.

They're not fortune tellers. They don't have crystal balls.

Jackson was rolling the dice with his life.

Ultimately, he caused his own death.

It was suicide by doctor. Maybe unintentional, but suicide all the same. The doctor was the method, the drugs the means, and Jackson the person responsible for setting it all in motion.

[Nic99]

Oh come on, are you saying that MJ didn't know exactly what he was taking? That he asked for drugs? He found unscrupulous Dr.'s that would do what he wanted. The Dr.s should be held accountable for any part they played, but, you can't tell me MJ, didn't know what he wanted. He bought them.

He may have 'thought' he knew what the drug was doing for him, but he wasn't a qualified Doctor and so he trusted in one (or more). It was their duty to care for him, not otherwise imo.

[VC2]

Getting back to the Diprivan..in this article Nurse Lee gives some rather curious statements she atributes to Michael..going back 3 months prior to his death...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ktla-jackson-doctor,0,6065410.story?page=3

He said, 'I don't like drugs. I don't want any drugs. My doctor told me this is a safe medicine,"' Lee said. The next day, she said she brought a copy of the Physician's Desk Reference to show him the section on Diprivan.

"He said, 'No, my doctor said it's safe. It works quick and it's safe as long as somebody's here to monitor me and wake me up. It's going be OK," Lee said. She said he did not give the doctor's name.

She mentons this a few times..that Michael said "His Dr. told him this drug was safe"...Wonder which Dr. that was..Dr. Murray maybe?..I also did hear on a news show, a Chef that worked at the house, noting that Dr. Murray was witnessed taking large tanks (O2 Maybe) out the back door....Why would this Cardiogist need Oxygen at the house for his patient?...Michael wasnt a COPD patient was he?? I am sorry..but my hinky meter keeps going off regarding this Dr.?! I have a feeling he had given this "Sleep Therapy" to MJ more often than JUST that fateful night..IMO anyway..

LMS

Tragedy of this, if he had managed to reduce his drugs except for legitimate reasons (severe pain for ex.) there is no reason for him to disbelieve the Dr. who said its safe at home so long as he monitors him. 99% of people would have no reason to think a doctor is lying about something that just puts him to sleep.

If it is the COD then there better be a manslaughter charge. It is far different than prescribing some demerol IMO

[GentleBreeze]

A lot of hospitals and doc offices are tied into one central computer that records test results automatically, and records prescriptions (no hard copies are given), and sends them to the pharmacies that are connected to their computer. There's only the slimmest of chances that a prescription can get by all the safeguards and checks in the computer system -- and the pharmacy system -- that a prescription that is not to be taken with another will be issued.

Or one that shouldn't be taken with one the patient is already taking -- can't be done. The prescription won't be filled.

What a shame your doctor wasn't a part of this kind of system; mistakes rarely occur.

My son didn't take any medication before and he has never done so even after that scary encounter.

The pharmacist did not catch it either. Filled it in a flash.

I don't know what happened. All I know is I thank God that my daughter in law was intelligent enough to check it out first.

Thankfully neither I nor my husband are having to take any prescription drugs.

imo

[TunaMelt]

Michael Jackson has paid for his part. Now shall the others.

That sounds like an edict.
:huh:

[CinderL.]

Michael Jackson has paid for his part. Now shall the others.


I hope they do. This really has to stop. It will be interesting to see what happens to ANS's Dr.s. That might be a preview to this case.

[legalmania]

I don't think central computer records are available in every state.
Not to mention that now days with the Internet- anyone can get anything and that would definitely apply to MJ.

That's what happened to Farrah and she sued, somebody was selling her private medical records. They're suppose to make sure your records are secure. I think with a central computer system it will become very easy to steal medical records.

[TunaMelt]

He may have 'thought' he knew what the drug was doing for him, but he wasn't a qualified Doctor and so he trusted in one (or more). It was their duty to care for him, not otherwise imo.

www.webmd.com

I'm only half-kidding.
There's lots of information out there for legal and illegal drugs. Ultimately it's about personal responsibility.

What's so hard about grasping the fact that a person is responsible for themselves and their actions? That when you're over 7 years old, "It's not my fault" is not an acceptable answer?

:mellow:

[Tokyo Rose]

Is he a licensed medical doctor? Is he a licensed pharmacist?

imo

Addicts can rattle off more information off the top of their heads about drugs than a doctor or pharmacist would know without looking it up. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

The doctor relies on the patient to tell them the whole truth about what drugs they are taking or have taken.

A doctor's only as good as the information he's been given. Pharmacists too.

They're not fortune tellers. They don't have crystal balls.

Jackson was rolling the dice with his life.

Ultimately, he caused his own death.

It was suicide by doctor. Maybe unintentional, but suicide all the same. The doctor was the method, the drugs the means, and Jackson the person responsible for setting it all in motion.

I don't think there is anything that shows that.

I think the doctor screwed up. I think he did know all about what MJ was taking. May have been the one to make sure he took the two half dissolved pills in his stomach. If he wanted this to happen he wouldn't have had a doctor monitor him closely in his home.

IMO, he did not cause his own death. He died at the hands of another's incompetence.

imo

[TunaMelt]

What a great post. It's what I and a few others have been saying all along, only you are much more articulate. :biggrin:

imo

:seeya:

:smile:

........

[Nic99]

Nic..there is a "Confidentiality" issue when it comes to your medical records.thats why most physicians require you to sign an agrrement to open your medical history or they refuse to treat...Doublle edge sword..if you want to keep your files secret..but want treatment for something....

The problem in this case that when offered $5000.00 a day to tend to someones needs..maybe their Medical Ethics get compromised?? Money does buy alot..and unfortuantely for Michael he hired the wrong person to protect him from himself and his need (for sleep)!

LMS

Yup and these Doctors should not be allowed to prescribe, unless the patient records are available to view imo. How else can a Doctor prescribe to a patient if they are not fully aware of the medical history. This is so wrong and it just makes you wonder how many other times this has happened in the past. Surely something should be done about this imo. This will happen again, unless something is changed by the Government or Health Authority.

[legalmania]

My son didn't take any medication before and he has never done so even after that scary encounter.

The pharmacist did not catch it either. Filled it in a flash.

I don't know what happened. All I know is I thank God that my daughter in law was intelligent enough to check it out first.

Thankfully neither I nor my husband are having to take any prescription drugs.

imo

I have to check all the time when these doctors come out with their new samples, I have found several medications that when mixed with some of the medications I have to take daily can kill me.

[GentleBreeze]

Addicts can rattle off more information off the top of their heads about drugs than a doctor or pharmacist would know without looking it up. jmo

Doesn't matter what they can do or not do. They can list them all but they still aren't licensed doctors nor are they licensed pharmacists.

[VC2]

looking at this pic, i do not understand why there is a suggestion they are purely caucasian. Doesn't matter anyway but imo all 3 children are of mixed race. AA or eastern Mediterranean or native but i sure can't see just caucasian in any of them http://www.usmagazine.com/news/michael-jacksons-kids-in-better-spirits-at-reception-200987

Not that you can tell just from looks but even if someone thought they could.....this is not the example i would use!

IMO

[TunaMelt]

I don't think there is anything that shows that.

I think the doctor screwed up. I think he did know all about what MJ was taking. May have been the one to make sure he took the two half dissolved pills in his stomach. If he wanted this to happen he wouldn't have had a doctor monitor him closely in his home.

IMO, he did not cause his own death. He died at the hands of another's incompetence.

imo

"It's not my fault."
:confused:
Nope.
That just won't cut it.
Not this time.

:mellow:

[ScoobyDoo]

I hope they do. This really has to stop. It will be interesting to see what happens to ANS's Dr.s. That might be a preview to this case.


Them too. But I really like Howard K. Stern and would hate to see him go to prison.
:mellow:

[kennedy06]

I don't think he was a dumb man. As a Father, he had a responsibility to realize the side affects of any drugs he decided to put in his body. Just like you or I. Being wealthy or a celebrity didn't free him from that responsibility. Life is no longer a game to be played when you bring children into the picture.

I'm sure he was a nice Dad and all but he was a grown man even if he liked Peter Pan. The doctors bare responsibility, those that knew what he was doing and did nothing to try to intervene bare some responsibility, Michael bared the most responsibility because he was the one who used them willingly.

Only ones out of all this who don't are his children.

I don't disrepect him or think badly of him just wish he would have thought twice about what he was doing.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

I have to check all the time when these doctors come out with their new samples, I have found several medications that when mixed with some of the medications I have to take daily can kill me.

It is so frightening because so many do not check. They put too much trust in the pharmacists and doctors and think they have it right when that is not always true.

imo

[Tokyo Rose]

My son didn't take any medication before and he has never done so even after that scary encounter.

The pharmacist did not catch it either. Filled it in a flash.

I don't know what happened. All I know is I thank God that my daughter in law was intelligent enough to check it out first.

Thankfully neither I nor my husband are having to take any prescription drugs.

imo

It is one's responsibility to check each drug they get from the pharmacy. That has even been recommended more than once on various links and mags such as AARP. Even though a pharmacy keeps a computer system with each patient listed mistakes can be made. These computors are suppose to red flag any dangerous mixes you may get.

Sometimes the red frag don't pop up.

I not only check to make sure I have the proper medicine filled, but I check out the drug to see what exactly the doctor gave me and what can't be taken with it.

I've found mistakes, but really don't make as big a deal out of it as you have. jmo

I think you are over exagerating.

[TunaMelt]

I have to check all the time when these doctors come out with their new samples, I have found several medications that when mixed with some of the medications I have to take daily can kill me.

Do all your doctors know who's giving you what kinds of samples? That should be on your medical records...and if it were, that wouldn't happen. That's the great thing about computerized records, charts, prescriptions all connected to pharmacies.

You won't be taking or given drugs (samples or otherwise) that would kill you taken in combination with other prescribed drugs.

:confused:

[Nic99]

It is so frightening because so many do not check. They put too much trust in the pharmacists and doctors and think they have it right when that is not always true.

imo

No, most do not check, because in my book, that is what the Doctor is there for. Your average 'Joe' does not know what a Doctor does and not all have access to the internet. This is scary; boy, it makes me glad that I don't live in the US and can trust in my Doctor.

[legalmania]

It is so frightening because so many do not check. They put too much trust in the pharmacists and doctors and think they have it right when that is not always true.

imo

I've had two doctors overdose me on my lung medications, It was scary as a little kid hearing welcome back, we almost lost you. I use to stop breathing a lot. Suffocation is a terrible way to die.

[TunaMelt]

Drug addiction is a disease and unfortunately when you are in pain or cannot sleep all you think about is what can make you feel better. Millions of Americans are affected by this -- it is a NATIONAL CRISIS. It is clear to me some of these doctors knew he was abusing drugs. Why would they issue prescriptions in other people's name and some with NO NAMES. It is unethical and the pharmacies should be held accountable as well for filling them. Controlled substances MUST be logged and signed per our drug laws.

The laws need to be enforced and doctors jailed just like drug pushers of illegal drugs. Hopefully as a result HL, ANS and MJ's death would not have been in vain.


War on Doctors / Pain Crisis

"Pain medications, such as OxyContin, Vicodin, and Methadone, have received increased government and media attention over the last 2 or 3 years, as the growth of their application in the treatment of patients with acute and chronic pain has been accompanied by an increase in reported drug abuse and dependence, adverse medical events, and pharmacy robberies. In response, the federal government announced a new initiative to control prescription drug abuse. 1 Various proposed measures, including heightened scrutiny of physicians’ practices, increased prosecution of physicians, increased restrictions on a number of pain medications, drug monitoring programs to catch “doctor shoppers,” and encouragement of more rigorous patient screening, will, it is claimed, limit the diversion of prescription medications from medical channels.

It would follow from this assumption that removal of the “bad apples” among doctors and that greater precision by well-intentioned doctors in directing prescriptions to appropriate patients would reduce the quantities available for misuse. It is further assumed that restricting the supply of medications available for diversion from medical practice will restrict the access of would-be illicit users to prescription medications, and that restricted access will lower the overall burden of substance abuse. Whether the new enforcement policy will limit diversion or reduce substance abuse remains to be seen.

http://doctordeluca.com/wordpress/challenge-prescription-misuse/

Prescription Drug Abuse: Crisis in America

http://www.imperialvalleynews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6142&Itemid=2

What is your point, Athena?

I know it's a national crisis.

What's that to do with Michael Jackson specifically?

[legalmania]

Do all your doctors know who's giving you what kinds of samples? That should be on your medical records...and if it were, that wouldn't happen. That's the great thing about computerized records, charts, prescriptions all connected to pharmacies.

You won't be taking or given drugs (samples or otherwise) that would kill you taken in combination with other prescribed drugs.

:confused:

I have been a government experiment since I was born, every doctor has a different diagnosis. Let's talk about MJ I don't want to talk about me.

[Tokyo Rose]

No, most do not check, because in my book, that is what the Doctor is there for. Your average 'Joe' does not know what a Doctor does and not all have access to the internet. This is scary; boy, it makes me glad that I don't live in the US and can trust in my Doctor.

But can you? I would suggest you check what you are taking. It's all of us who have the responsibility for what goes into our bodies. If not our own selves than who? jmo

Now that the average Joe does have access to the internet, they can and should keep track of their meds. jmo

[Tokyo Rose]

Average john does don't have money like MJ did -- so how do they get over prescribed drugs? :confused: Laws need to be enforced period and more screening of patients are required. No one should be able to walk into their Doctor's office and just ask for a prescription -- and unfortunately that is exactly what happens.

They have insurance. An average person can doctor shop and does. jmo

[TunaMelt]

Originally Posted by TunaMelt
The doctor relies on the patient to tell them the whole truth about what drugs they are taking or have taken.

A doctor's only as good as the information he's been given. Pharmacists too.

They're not fortune tellers. They don't have crystal balls.

Jackson was rolling the dice with his life.

Ultimately, he caused his own death.

It was suicide by doctor. Maybe unintentional, but suicide all the same. The doctor was the method, the drugs the means, and Jackson the person responsible for setting it all in motion.

Lilyanne
What a great post. It's what I and a few others have been saying all along, only you are much more articulate.

imo

LOL suicide by dr.? The dr. has the right to say NO. Did they really tell Michael of the dangers, or just do it to help him, which is wrong. Seems Michael thought this was safe, that he chatted with the nurse Cheryl about it, if her account was accurate, he seemed to not know the true dangers. Big diff. in helpng a patient to ease his/hers pain and helping them sleep /enabling them with this killer drug. Sorry if I mess'd up the above posts. Did Michael know of the dangers of this scary drug or did the Dr. misled him and MJ thought he would wake up and sing and dance? Miss you Michael, you did right by your children. With respect IMSNARKYO

Snarky,
You know darn good and well that Michael Jackson ALSO had the right and responsibility as a man and a father to say NO to drugs, to get clean.

He violated his responsibilities as a father and a provider, as the doctors violated their oath.

It doesn't make Michael Jackson any less responsible for his own death.

He did it to himself, yes, he did.

[GentleBreeze]

"It's not my fault."
:confused:
Nope.
That just won't cut it.
Not this time.

:mellow:

Why? If he died from a combination of the IV drip and possibly the other medication that had been subscribed by Muray then why would it be any different than the thousands of other overdoses? If that turns out to be the case.

MJ wanted to live very much. That is why he had his own personal physician that was SUPPOSED to be sitting right by his bedside monitoring him the entire time.

imo

[TunaMelt]

Average Joe addict lies to one Dr and doesn't tell what another Dr gave him. Or he buys the pills illegally on the street.

imo

Say good-bye to all that real soon, with a new national health care program, aka socialized medicine. Big Brother will know everything you're taking, unless you get it on the street.

[lilismom]

The doctor relies on the patient to tell them the whole truth about what drugs they are taking or have taken.

A doctor's only as good as the information he's been given. Pharmacists too.

They're not fortune tellers. They don't have crystal balls.

Jackson was rolling the dice with his life.

Ultimately, he caused his own death.

It was suicide by doctor. Maybe unintentional, but suicide all the same. The doctor was the method, the drugs the means, and Jackson the person responsible for setting it all in motion.


I agree with you except for thinking that he caused his own death. Maybe then but not now. By all accounts he was back and better than ever. An accident? Perhaps, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "suicide by doctor". I don't believe for a second that Michael thought he wouldn't wake up. If he thought he could handle the use of this drug alone why the monitoring? He apparently knew the risks and took what he thought were the necessary precautions. Did he shop around until he found a doctor that would help him take it? Looks that way. Maybe. But I don't believe he took this drug, if in fact he did, thinking he would never wake up. Not that day or any other day. He trusted the person he chose and paid handsomely to watch over him.

Time will tell I guess.

IMO,
Lilismom

[TunaMelt]

Why? If he died from a combination of the IV drip and possibly the other medication that had been subscribed by Muray then why would it be any different than the thousands of other overdoses? If that turns out to be the case.

MJ wanted to live very much. That is why he had his own personal physician that was SUPPOSED to be sitting right by his bedside monitoring him the entire time.

imo

They enabled, yes.
But he hired them to enable him.

[TunaMelt]

I need proof he was an addict, a REAL ADDICT. Paris never seen him as that. Someone introduced him to this, <surgeries> but who ever allowed it out hospital boundries, KILLED HIM. JMSO

No.
Because he said "give it to me."

That's why I say he's responsible for his own death.

[GentleBreeze]

But can you? I would suggest you check what you are taking. It's all of us who have the responsibility for what goes into our bodies. If not our own selves than who? jmo

Now that the average Joe does have access to the internet, they can and should keep track of their meds. jmo

Oh pleeeze. It is not the responsibility of the patient to nursemaid the pharmacists or doctors.

Many elderly people do not have access to computers and are extremely trusting of their doctors and pharmacists but I guess now if the doctor or the pharmacist gets it wrong it is the patient's fault.:rolleyes:

[legalmania]

I hope I'm not prying but you mentioned a few times about your lung disease. I'm very sorry.

Do you have sacordosis? You don't have to answer.

imo

They don't know what it is as a child they thought it was asthma, but then, they thought it was copd, now they think I have a rare virus that stays in my system and when I get a low resistance it goes to my lungs. Thanks for caring.

[GentleBreeze]

No.
Because he said "give it to me."

That's why I say he's responsible for his own death.

SO?:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

I need proof he was an addict, a REAL ADDICT. Paris never seen him as that. Someone introduced him to this, <surgeries> but who ever allowed it out hospital boundries, KILLED HIM. JMSO

Absolutely. I couldnt agree more.

[Nic99]

Drug Seekers come from all walks of life..and as you posted..it is indeed a crisis..I recall way back when..we ( as front line caregivers) recognized this problem..and initiated a data base ..we nicknames " Frequent flyers"..and by doing that we could nip it in the bud, and protect the physicians..and intervene with the patients..that goes back more than 25 years...

Perscriptions when dispensed up here, are done and accompanied with a whole readout on its uses, precautions, side effects , how to respond to those effects, and who SHOULD NOT TAKE THIS DRUG etc..



Michael believed it was safe, simply because he had it likely many times with no ill effects..unfortunately, he assumed too much didnt he? When any person gains whatever effect wanted..they do tend to dismiss the risks.."It wont happen to me" attitude..

BTW..I dont believe Michael suffered..as I think he went to sleep and his complications caused his death..so never woke up to any conscious level..For this belief..I take some comfort..

LMS

Thanks for your post. It is good to know that he most likely didn't suffer, but it sucks that it should have ever been allowed in the first place, and if it was, that Doctor should have been present at all times to carefully monitor his mistake.

[FallenAngel♥]

I need proof he was an addict, a REAL ADDICT. Paris never seen him as that. Someone introduced him to this, <surgeries> but who ever allowed it out hospital boundries, KILLED HIM. JMSO

I thought he admitted he was an addicted and checked himself into rehab several times.

[FallenAngel♥]

Hasn't it been reported that he was taking xanax, demerol, zoloft, etc.? he also owed $100,000 to a pharmacy at one time.

I don't think there's any question that he was an addict. I believe Dr. Gupta said so as well.

imo

There is no doubt in my mind he was an addict :(

[FallenAngel♥]

I just have a question for those who think MJ is totally responsible for his drug taking (IF he abused them)?

Do you not have compassion for prescription drug abusers who got addicted by taking legitimately prescribed drugs for whatever ails them? Do you not have anyone in your family who was affected, a friend or perhaps someone you know? Do you know how hard it is for a family friend to even get intervention because the patient is an adult?

The lack of compassion shown here just totally escapes me. :confused:

I have compassion for MJ, his children, family and friends BUT with i believe he was and addict just like Anna Nicole Smith. and YES i've had a family member that was addicted to pain killers after a surgery and she had to go to rehab because she almost died.

[Scampi]

Tragedy of this, if he had managed to reduce his drugs except for legitimate reasons (severe pain for ex.) there is no reason for him to disbelieve the Dr. who said its safe at home so long as he monitors him. 99% of people would have no reason to think a doctor is lying about something that just puts him to sleep.

If it is the COD then there better be a manslaughter charge. It is far different than prescribing some demerol IMO


Hiya VC!! It is a tragedy. This is what happens when a patient with too much money, who is in pain and can afford to doctor shop finds one who is unethical, imo.

Reminds me of Howard Hughes in the last years of his life.

I believe Michael was responsible for his own health, up to any unethical and/or illegal actions by any of the physicians treating him. Any doctor betraying his oath as a healer or breaking the law should be prosecuted. Michael Jackson did not administer an IV of dripriven to himself, imo.

[Ice Cycle]

The doctor relies on the patient to tell them the whole truth about what drugs they are taking or have taken.

A doctor's only as good as the information he's been given. Pharmacists too.

They're not fortune tellers. They don't have crystal balls.

Jackson was rolling the dice with his life.

Ultimately, he caused his own death.

It was suicide by doctor. Maybe unintentional, but suicide all the same. The doctor was the method, the drugs the means, and Jackson the person responsible for setting it all in motion.

I agree with this, if it was the same doctor giving him it all then that is a different story. We are responsible for our own health and the fact is you can get many things on the Internet, in other countries and on the street for that matter. It is not the doctor's responsibility to investigate(other than questioning) what a person is getting or not getting, as most of them now days won't even file the insurance for a person. I believe there is a point where family and friends then need to intervene if possible. Though that was probably not possible as I am sure he would of cut them out of his life. I am certain that put the people closest to him in a bad situation.

[legalmania]

Absolutely. I couldnt agree more.

Does anyone think that maybe Michael got a few surgeries in his house? All's you need is a sterile room, they do proceedures in doctors offices so why not at his house?

[Mnchkin426]

How about waiting for the toxicology reports to return to see if drugs were really responsible for MJ's death? IMO

[who_is_it]

Here ya go...I see it is a radaronline..yikes...however I recall hearing it on a more reputable site..


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/exclusive-video-interview-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-chef-reveals-bombshell-about-singer%E2%80%99s


Here further on Dr. Murray refusing comment on those oxygen tanks.



http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/jackson%E2%80%99s-doctor-refuses-comment-eyewitness-report-about-oxygen-tanks


So take this for what it's worth..however, IF this is factual, and the truth..it does fit with "Sleep Therapy" probability, IMO

LMS

Thank you.

Hhhhmm, he described the tanks precisely. Imo it's true.

Apart from this I don't know if he spoke the truth. I think he wasn't well-disposed towards Michael:

"Jones left Jackson's employ at the end of May. He says that Jackson wanted him to accompany him on tour but they couldn’t agree on financial compensation."

[FallenAngel♥]

You can succeed from alcohol and drugs, but how do you go into rehab for this? He never meant to leave Michael, Paris, Blanket.

Did Anna Nicole Smith mean to leave her babygirl? I think not.

[Scampi]

I just have a question for those who think MJ is totally responsible for his drug taking (IF he abused them)?

Do you not have compassion for prescription drug abusers who got addicted by taking legitimately prescribed drugs for whatever ails them? Do you not have anyone in your family who was affected, a friend or perhaps someone you know? Do you know how hard it is for a family to even get intervention because the patient is an adult? Even most alcholics won't admit it until they've reached rock-bottom. Unfortunately MJ learned too late -- as his "bottom" was death.

The lack of compassion shown here just totally escapes me. :confused:

Hiya Athie, sometimes people are stingy with compassion until it directly impacts their lives or the lives of those they love.

:seeya:

[FallenAngel♥]

How about waiting for the toxicology reports to return to see if drugs were really responsible for MJ's death? IMO

Well IMO the second autopsy toxicology report is back and thats why the jackson family started helping the LAPD today by turning over the names of MJ's drs that they think gave him drugs.

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree with this, if it was the same doctor giving him it all then that is a different story. We are responsible for our own health and the fact is you can get many things on the Internet, in other countries and on the street for that matter. It is not the doctor's responsibility to investigate(other than questioning) what a person is getting or not getting, as most of them now days won't even file the insurance for a person. I believe there is a point where family and friends then need to intervene if possible. Though that was probably not possible as I am sure he would of cut them out of his life. I am certain that put the people closest to him in a bad situation.


Was it the doctor's responsibility to break into the hospital supply room, to steal those drugs? It is reported that M. Jackson was not well versed in computer use, so I doubt he got it off the internet.

[legalmania]

How about waiting for the toxicology reports to return to see if drugs were really responsible for MJ's death? IMO

They must have some idea what was in his system. They say that deprovin goes through the system rather quickly.

[FallenAngel♥]

HLN's now saying sources are telling them that MJ had numerous track marks on his arm and veins were collapsed :(

[Nic99]

My bolding nic99.....There lies the huge issue..monitoring is one thing..but it behooves the caregiver to have adequate equipment and personel available to treat and stabilize when complications occur!! It wasnt just a mistake, but a medical ethic issue...never mind being in a home situation..

Guess, you can tell I dont hold Dr. Murray in high esteme..He may have been trying to keep it to a minimum exposure..but by doing that he not only put Michael at risk but himself too!! Michael lost big time and Dr. Murray lost on the culpibility level...Time will only tell when all the facts come out..just how this all happened..and I dont discount Dr. Klein either..maybe he was the conduit to obtaining this drug..we dont have actual evidence of that..but Michael's frequent visits to him in the weeks prior to his death does create some suspicions..

LMS

Unfortunately it all looks too clear imo. I agree with you and it is such a sad situation that should never have been allowed to go this far. Michael was not overweight, not a prime target for a heart attack in that respect, but was being treated by a Doctor incorrectly and subsequently suffered due to this. I hope this Doctor is held accountable and others if necessary - it was all just for monetary gain on their point and is sickening....

[FallenAngel♥]

I read it the same way FA.

I think the Dr's should be charged. They forget they are suppose to help people when they start seeing $$$$'s.

[FallenAngel♥]

After the memorial at the Staples Center, Michael Jackson's three sisters, La Toya, Janet and Rebbie, spoke to the overflow crowd at the Nokia Theater across the street.


http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=44f745f0-e1a8-4081-98d9-17331f71bf77

[Unperson1984]

I need proof he was an addict, a REAL ADDICT. Paris never seen him as that. Someone introduced him to this, <surgeries> but who ever allowed it out hospital boundries, KILLED HIM. JMSO

Paris saw him as the Daddy she loved, beyond that we really don't know.

[Nic99]

Hi ya Scampi,

I suppose you are right. But we as American citizens really need to contact our Reprs to let them know that we want Doctors to follow the law. Every doctor that ever issued questionable prescriptions should be plastered on the front page of the news and charged just like illegal drug pushers. They are worse IMO because they are supposed to adhere to a code of ethics and the pharmacies that fill prescriptions with fake names and NO names need to be held accountable as well. Just frustrating that some people just don't get this. :(

ITA with everything you have said. I am sure there are a lot of us out there who 'do get it' and it should be law imo. This should never be allowed to happen ever again.

[who_is_it]

Getting back to the Diprivan..in this article Nurse Lee gives some rather curious statements she atributes to Michael..going back 3 months prior to his death...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ktla-jackson-doctor,0,6065410.story?page=3

He said, 'I don't like drugs. I don't want any drugs. My doctor told me this is a safe medicine,"' Lee said. The next day, she said she brought a copy of the Physician's Desk Reference to show him the section on Diprivan.

"He said, 'No, my doctor said it's safe. It works quick and it's safe as long as somebody's here to monitor me and wake me up. It's going be OK," Lee said. She said he did not give the doctor's name.

She mentons this a few times..that Michael said "His Dr. told him this drug was safe"...Wonder which Dr. that was..Dr. Murray maybe?..I also did hear on a news show, a Chef that worked at the house, noting that Dr. Murray was witnessed taking large tanks (O2 Maybe) out the back door....Why would this Cardiogist need Oxygen at the house for his patient?...Michael wasnt a COPD patient was he?? I am sorry..but my hinky meter keeps going off regarding this Dr.?! I have a feeling he had given this "Sleep Therapy" to MJ more often than JUST that fateful night..IMO anyway..

LMS

IF the nurse speaks the truth we still don't know if any doctor told him the drug would be save. Someone who's addicted tries everything to get a drug. Maybe Michael wanted the drug so badly... and lied.

------

"Comedian Dick Gregory, who knows Lee and her work, said he believes Jackson's insomnia had its roots in the pop star's 2005 trial on child molestation charges."


I wouldn't wonder. Back then I thought he was totally drugged up when he hugged Mesereau and later walked out the court room. No blame or negative judgement intended; I think we can't imagine what stress, pain and fear he had to go through.

[*Serenity*]

Hi ya Scampi,

I suppose you are right. But we as American citizens really need to contact our Reprs to let them know that we want Doctors to follow the law. Every doctor that ever issued questionable prescriptions should be plastered on the front page of the news and charged just like illegal drug pushers. They are worse IMO because they are supposed to adhere to a code of ethics and the pharmacies that fill prescriptions with fake names and NO names need to be held accountable as well. Just frustrating that some people just don't get this. :(


I think when charges start coming forward, and prosecutions start to hit the forefront, it will send a very clear message for those that wish to remain in the medical field. This has gone on for so long with no repurcussions, that the unethical ones think they will never get caught.

JMO of course... :)

[MoonHarvest]

Honestly, quite some time ago I had a surgery where anesthesia was used. It was during a very emotionally painful time in my life. I clearly remember just how soothing that feeling before going under was. I also remember thinking in my mind at the time , how a person could get hooked on this.

[ish]

looking at this pic, i do not understand why there is a suggestion they are purely caucasian. Doesn't matter anyway but imo all 3 children are of mixed race. AA or eastern Mediterranean or native but i sure can't see just caucasian in any of them http://www.usmagazine.com/news/michael-jacksons-kids-in-better-spirits-at-reception-200987

Not that you can tell just from looks but even if someone thought they could.....this is not the example i would use!

IMO


After watching Miko Brando on LKL the last several nights and now seeing that photo of Blanket, I wonder if Miko was his father. I'd like to know what exactly Miko does for a living outside of being Marlon Brando's son and best friend to Michael. The other two children seem much darker than they have in other photos, especially their hair. I wonder if Michael had it lightened. I saw several photos of Michael Jr with platinum blonde hair as a 3 or 4 yr old. The skin color could just be that they are older now and get outside much more, I think he kept them hidden away a lot when they were very young. SInce the child molestation trial I think they have been out of this country most of this time ( in Bahrain I believe) Didn't they only return to the U.S within the last year?

regarding the dr and whose fault it is that MJ is dead.. I have to give a large chunk of blame to MJ himself. He was used to buying what he wanted, he didn 't listen to those who told him he was heading for trouble, Deepak Choprah and Uri Geller among them. He decided he wanted this medication and he found someone to give it to him. I think most normal thinking people would have taken the advice given by others, but MJ decided he knew best. Logic should have told him that if he had to hire a DR. for 100k a month, something was wrong but he felt that he was special and sadly when you start thinking like that trouble isn't too far down the road.

[legalmania]

My bolding legalmania...The big difference is that in Dr.'s office there are medically educated personel around to help when complications ocurr..and if this was done in Michael's house ( man, did you see that place???Palace)..and had absolutely no assistance...Not responsible medical practice to me anyway...Huge difference between local aneasthetic and IV Aneasthetic..

LMS

Just a thought maybe he had everyone there for just the day of the procedure and then the doctor would monitor him after that. If he could have a zoo and a carnival he could have a medical center. I just don't understand why he needed something so powerful to knock him out.

[legalmania]

After the memorial at the Staples Center, Michael Jackson's three sisters, La Toya, Janet and Rebbie, spoke to the overflow crowd at the Nokia Theater across the street.


http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=44f745f0-e1a8-4081-98d9-17331f71bf77

Which sister was in the big hat?

[norwood]

I just have a question for those who think MJ is totally responsible for his drug taking (IF he abused them)?

Do you not have compassion for prescription drug abusers who got addicted by taking legitimately prescribed drugs for whatever ails them? Do you not have anyone in your family who was affected, a friend or perhaps someone you know? Do you know how hard it is for a family to even get intervention because the patient is an adult? Even most alcholics won't admit it until they've reached rock-bottom. Unfortunately MJ learned too late -- as his "bottom" was death.

The lack of compassion shown here just totally escapes me. :confused:

In a word, NO, I do not. I am about to be 58 years old and my mother was addicted to precribed medicine. She did not die from it, she was murdered. I do balme her and my father for allowing it. This goes back all the way to the 50s and 60s and then t all the way into the early 90s. I also blame her doctor. I have always said he retired on what she paid him to prescribe what ever she wanted. I have seen her so drugged she could not hold her head up. Until you have lived with this you don't know what you are talking about. The person likes the high and will go to multiple DRs with out telling them about other prescriptions from other Drs. My mother did it all. As far as I know she never bought off the street, she didn't have to. She was very adept at getting scripts from DRs. She caused her addiction because she liked the high, period.

[legalmania]

Rebbie and LaToya both have large hats on but LaToya's extends further around. Rebbie was the first one to speak.

I guess LaToya doesn't remember going on tv and accusing her brother of molestation? She is so two faced.

[who_is_it]

Hi ya Scampi,

I suppose you are right. But we as American citizens really need to contact our Reprs to let them know that we want Doctors to follow the law. Every doctor that ever issued questionable prescriptions should be plastered on the front page of the news and charged just like illegal drug pushers. They are worse IMO because they are supposed to adhere to a code of ethics and the pharmacies that fill prescriptions with fake names and NO names need to be held accountable as well. Just frustrating that some people just don't get this. :(

Thanks for your explanation in reply to my other post.

I just can talk about my own country. There it doesn't work at all like you would wish:

Now - as a celebrity died (same with Heath Ledger and ANS) - the public CARES. In my country it's very common that prescription drugs are given to "street addicts"* as substitutes. There's a big black market for those legally prescribed drugs. Quite often "street addicts"* don't die of illegal drugs but of a cocktail of prescription drugs or also a combination of alcohol and benzodiazepine. "No one" cares, "no one" blames the docs. If they die it's just like "another addict has died".

2 thoughts:

First is that it's a double standard.

Second is: How should the health system handle it? "Street addicts"* should get it as a substitute, others not? It's a balance act. Who should or even MUST get the drug and if you give to others it's a crime? Where to draw the line?

* It might sound derogative but it's not meant like this. Addiction is a disease.

[legalmania]

When you are in pain, all the pills do is help you to function. If you keep your dosage down to 180mg daily you will not die. Narcotics are not bad for you, it's just people do to high of a dose. I remember getting straight codeine as a kid about 12. It made me itchy but the pain stopped. I've been on and off codeine most of my life.

[Ice Cycle]

Does anyone know if any of the channels are replaying the Memorial tonight all the way through? Someone I know hasn't got to see it yet.

[MoonHarvest]

In a word, NO, I do not. I am about to be 58 years old and my mother was addicted to precribed medicine. She did not die from it, she was murdered. I do balme her and my father for allowing it. This goes back all the way to the 50s and 60s and then t all the way into the early 90s. I also blame her doctor. I have always said he retired on what she paid him to prescribe what ever she wanted. I have seen her so drugged she could not hold her head up. Until you have lived with this you don't know what you are talking about. The person likes the high and will go to multiple DRs with out telling them about other prescriptions from other Drs. My mother did it all. As far as I know she never bought off the street, she didn't have to. She was very adept at getting scripts from DRs. She caused her addiction because she liked the high, period.

Too bad Western medicine doesn't see the whole person and treat them accordingly. I believe we can ail from three distinct components, or in the least two. What ails us mentally-spiritually will indeed manifest itself into the physical. But, alas in today's society still all too often the "mentally" is over looked and still even taboo.

[legalmania]

Does anyone know if any of the channels are replaying the Memorial tonight all the way through? Someone I know hasn't got to see it yet.

It was on vh1 earlier. Someone had a link yesterday. Maybe if you go to links you can find it.

[legalmania]

I think BIG Hat was La Toya

Beret was Janet

Medium hat was Rebbe

I thought so. I knew Janet. She could hardly talk. I think she was the closest to Michael. I wonder how this will effect her?

[CinderL.]

Average john does don't have money like MJ did -- so how do they get over prescribed drugs? :confused: Laws need to be enforced period and more screening of patients are required. No one should be able to walk into their Doctor's office and just ask for a prescription -- and unfortunately that is exactly what happens.

Or as I have posted, many go to the ER. for pain meds. They have to treat the patient. The Dr.s, Nurses, know that they have been in tons of times. They usually send in a Social Services person to talk with them about rehab. They go to every hospital in the area.

[legalmania]

Well I got to get some work done so I'll leave everybody for now, with this song. For MJ. :rose::seeya:

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Never Can Say Goodbye (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/never_can_say_goodbye)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[CinderL.]

I just have a question for those who think MJ is totally responsible for his drug taking (IF he abused them)?

Do you not have compassion for prescription drug abusers who got addicted by taking legitimately prescribed drugs for whatever ails them? Do you not have anyone in your family who was affected, a friend or perhaps someone you know? Do you know how hard it is for a family to even get intervention because the patient is an adult? Even most alcholics won't admit it until they've reached rock-bottom. Unfortunately MJ learned too late -- as his "bottom" was death.

The lack of compassion shown here just totally escapes me. :confused:


I for one NEVER said MJ was Totally responsible. I said ULTIMATELY it was his fault, because he chose to do the drugs. The Dr.s share in the responsibility. IMO

[LLaFren]

Have you ever had it? I have for two medical procedures. It knocks you out into a glorious sleep and you wake up refreshed. It's fantastic.

imo

Had to bump this, I had it for a procedure not to long ago it was the best sleep I had had in years.

History wise I am classified as a severe insomniac, I've tried every "sleep aid" available, most hype me up instead of putting me to sleep (and we really won't talk about what happened when I tried Ambien :)).

I can understand why someone who had the money would pay a Dr. to administer this, especially when I haven't slept for more than an hour or two in the last three days.

[ScoobyDoo]

Then you shouldn't consider MJ a good father. IMO

He put his children through the ordeal of a trial, because he would not stop sleeping with other people's little boys and all that went along with that....and because of his refusing to get legitimate medical help he's dead...and again his children are suffering. IMO


It was quite evident that his children and the vast majority of people who actually knew him, along with 12 jurors, don't make their judgements dependant on the words of Nancy Grace, and those like her.

[Mnchkin426]

Well IMO the second autopsy toxicology report is back and thats why the jackson family started helping the LAPD today by turning over the names of MJ's drs that they think gave him drugs.

I'm curious as to where you saw that any toxicology report is back. Tried to google it and was unsuccessful. Could you provide me with a link, please?

If so, turning over the names of MJ's doctors to the LAPD seems like one approach to trying to figure out what happened. There could be several reasons for doing so, including the family being suspicious of the doctors. On the other hand, who else had more information about MJ's physical condition than the doctors treating him. I don't think it just has to mean that there was a drug overdose. Remember, he was being treated for a chronic, potentially fatal illness....Lupus. The coroner's office is the one to determine cause of death and the statement from there said it would take several weeks for the test results to come back.

Still think I'll wait for the official toxicology report. JMO

[ScoobyDoo]

Everyday when he arrived for court during the trial he was so stoned he didn't even look coherent. I don't care what his defense attorney, Messeru (sp) says, I saw MJ with my own eyes. IMO

No one can tell me he was a good father during that long long period of time.

Perhaps the blame should be placed with the vindictive prosecutor who stopped at nothing to maliciously bring falses charges against him, for which he was fully acquited. I'm sure being falsely accused would have some impact on one's family.

[ScoobyDoo]

And guess what??..Those departments have a huge binder full of documentation of those "Frequent Flyers"..and are dealt with accordingly..In the 90's Migraine treament changed...No longer narcotic treatment...but alternative...LOL..you should have seen the exit stage right by the "Seekers"??? True Migraine patients loved the new treatment!!

LMS:laugh:


It pretty much sucks to be called a frequent flyer, drug seeker, when you have a diagnosis, treatment plan, and because the doctor is not familiar with a particular rare disease, the patient is deemed an addict, and refused the appropriate care.

[MoonHarvest]

Everyday when he arrived for court during the trial he was so stoned he didn't even look coherent. I don't care what his defense attorney, Messeru (sp) says, I saw MJ with my own eyes. IMO

No one can tell me he was a good father during that long long period of time.

I might be inclined to go to court "stoned" or medicated too if facing the possibility of prison and those type of extremely serious charges . AllMOO of course.

[MoonHarvest]

And guess what??..Those departments have a huge binder full of documentation of those "Frequent Flyers"..and are dealt with accordingly..In the 90's Migraine treament changed...No longer narcotic treatment...but alternative...LOL..you should have seen the exit stage right by the "Seekers"??? True Migraine patients loved the new treatment!!

LMS:laugh:


It's a crime and down right low, how some medical staff "think" they "know" and consequently label in error, some human beings.

[CinderL.]

And guess what??..Those departments have a huge binder full of documentation of those "Frequent Flyers"..and are dealt with accordingly..In the 90's Migraine treament changed...No longer narcotic treatment...but alternative...LOL..you should have seen the exit stage right by the "Seekers"??? True Migraine patients loved the new treatment!!

LMS:laugh:

That is what my friend said also. She said most are "back pain" now. :ohmy::smile:

[GentleBreeze]

How about waiting for the toxicology reports to return to see if drugs were really responsible for MJ's death? IMO

Now that is a good suggestion.

imo

[Ice Cycle]

It was on vh1 earlier. Someone had a link yesterday. Maybe if you go to links you can find it.

Thanks, I have looked around but can't find anything about it.

[4Life]

No one can tell me he was a good father during that long long period of time.Yesterday morning Mjs daughter told you he was a good father
Her exact words to you, the tabloids and the world


“I just want to say ever since I was born, Daddy has been the best father you can ever imagine,And I just want to say I love him so much.”

[who_is_it]

As I recall it...she was to testify for the prosecution during the trial.

The way I remember it, she was scripted for the rebuttal video (which you are referring to) and she appeared as part of it, in hopes of actually seeing her children. Later, on the stand she totally flip flopped at the last minute ....again...On the stand...she said she hopes to see her children. IMO It was MJ that used the children as a dangling carrot and would not allow her access to them.

IMO You have to remember MJ has an entire team to twist the truth and fuel the media with their version. Their version is the one the media laps up and spoon feeds the fans. IMO

Ya also have to remember that MJ employed the most RUTHLESS people he possible could, Anthony Pellicano just to name one...he's in prison now for illegal wire tapping...but in the past he was caught with MILIATY GRADE PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES and live grenades in his office safe.....swell guy:scared: I believe he was also involved with making death threats against a NY Times reporter. These are the types of people chose to surround himself with...and he did it for a good reason. IMO

Talking about RUTHLESS:

"None of the media descriptions of Jackson’s career, including a superficial pop-driven survey of the star’s career by Anderson Cooper, referred to the 2005 plaintiff’s lies and his mother’s shabby history of conning individuals and institutions including J. C. Penney’s, which she accused of sexual abuse. She claimed that she had been "fondled inappropriately” by store personnel. Documents also hinted that "…the mom rehearsed her children to corroborate her story."

During the 2005 trial, Jackson’s Attorney, Tom Mesereau Jr. got the teenage boy to admit that he lied under oath during the J. C. Penny case. (...) Linda Deutsch, one of the last of hard-nosed shoe leather journalists, reporting for the Associated Press on March of 2005. said that Mesereau got the 15 year old to admit that he’d told Jeffrey Alpert, a school official that "nothing happened" between Jackson and him.

(...)

While referring to Jackson as "bizarre" none of the cable reporting about Jackson's death cited the bizarre courtroom testimony of the plaintiff’s mother, Janet Arvizo. At one point during her testimony, she said that feared her children would disappear from Neverland, Jackson’s ranch, in a hot air balloon.

(...)

Finally, in November of 2006, according to TMZ, Janet Arvizo pled no contest to a welfare fraud charge in Los Angeles. She was ordered to 150 hours of community service and to pay $8, 600 in restitution. During Jackson's trial, Arvizo invoked the Fifth regarding welfare fraud. Seems that she applied for welfare even though she’d received a $150, 000 settlement from J. C. Penny’s. Even with the mother's behavior and the boys lies, Nancy Grace, commenting on the death of Jackson, said that she was surprised by the not guilty verdict in the Jackson trial. No wonder Ms. Grace has been called "a cheerleader for the prosecution."
http://www.counterpunch.org/reed06292009.html

Who twisted the truth?

[Ice Cycle]

Know this if off topic but just wondering if he been buried yet and have they said where?

[CinderL.]

It's a crime and down right low, how some medical staff "think" they "know" and consequently label in error, some human beings.

These people would go to all of the hospitals in the area. Sometimes more than one on the same day. I think usually they know who the addicts are. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Perhaps the blame should be placed with the vindictive prosecutor who stopped at nothing to maliciously bring false charges against him, for which he was fully acquitted. I'm sure being falsely accused would have some impact on one's family.

I think it destroyed MJ and threw him into the pits of despair. I think that would be normal for anyone falsely accused. No wonder he was stoned. Imo he was traumatized by the entire spectacle. I don't even do drugs but I probably would start if accused of something this offensive and I would crawl in a hole and stay there. lol

I wish Sneddon had had the courage to face that he didn't have a case and the evidence was as weak as a wet noodle. But I think bringing the case was done more for political gain imo.

imo

[4Life]

For those of you that say YOU KNOW MJ was NOT a good father, Listen to HIS DAUGHTER tell you the truth and prove you wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhpXzBVBoKw

[MoonHarvest]

IMO He struggled with drug addiction LONG before the "incident" you speak of.

How do you know? It really isn't any of our business.

[4Life]

It's not like she had anyone to compare him to or knows any different. She loved him...fine. That doesn't make him a "good parent" IMO

Most children would say the same about their parent...and we know that's not the reality.

And children will speak the truth
Geez the man is dead, A father,son, brother, uncle is Dead. Leave him alone

Marlon(his brother) said yesterday Michael maybe now they will leave you alone

Guess not

Some people here are worse than the tabloids

[MoonHarvest]

I think it destroyed MJ and threw him into the pits of despair. I think that would be normal for anyone falsely accused. No wonder he was stoned. Imo he was traumatized by the entire spectacle. I don't even do drugs but I probably would start if accused of something this offensive and I would crawl in a hole and stay there. lol

I wish Sneddon had had the courage to face that he didn't have a case and the evidence was as weak as a wet noodle. But I think bringing the case was done more for political gain imo.

imo

:lol: I'd do the same exact thing, in fact I'm not so sure I'd even make it to court. (and I don't do drugs either.)

[Gilly]

Does anyone know if any of the channels are replaying the Memorial tonight all the way through? Someone I know hasn't got to see it yet.


You can watch it here Ice:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31782901#31782901

[4Life]

Even in death he is hounded for publicity. (shaking head). Marlon's statement yesterday at the memorial "maybe now they'll leave you alone" is just wishful thinking unfortunately. :(

Wow, we think alike. I just posted the same thing

[Ice Cycle]

You can watch it here Ice:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31782901#31782901


Thank You---------

[MoonHarvest]

And children will speak the truth
Geez the man is dead, A father,son, brother, uncle is Dead. Leave him alone

Marlon(his brother) said yesterday Michael maybe now they will leave you alone

Guess not

Some people here are worse than the tabloids

ALL my MOO of course, but they would take blood and skin off of a person if they could, and that still wouldn't be enough.


Look at what people did to Jesus. And before anyone is offff and running, I am not comparing MJ to Jesus.

[LILMANMAX]

It's not like she had anyone to compare him to or knows any different. She loved him...fine. That doesn't make him a "good parent" IMO

Most children would say the same about their parent...and we know that's not the reality.

Those words came from her heart and soul. The true love she and her father shared.
Your comments are totally unnecessary. :rolleyes:

[Ice Cycle]

It's a secret. TMZ is looking http://www.tmz.com/

I say doesn't matter. I don't care, he's at rest where ever he is. Body and Spirit.IMO

Oh Ok, not a surprise and was wondering since their was so much buz about it.

[LILMANMAX]

Excuse me...I don't give a rats butt what the boys mother did or did do.

The defense strategy was brilliant ...gotta give them credit where credit is due.

BUT SHE WASN'T ON TRIAL......It was Michael Jackson and I believed her son was VERY CREDIBLE.

IMO


You obviously did not read the actual court transcripts.

[4Life]

Excuse me...I don't give a rats butt what the boys mother did or did do.

The defense strategy was brilliant ...gotta give them credit where credit is due.

BUT SHE WASN'T ON TRIAL......It was Michael Jackson and I believed her son was VERY CREDIBLE.

IMO

I'm sure MJs 3 kids would want you to hear what their Daddy sung to people like you and the tabloids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5KAJw4y8wE

[who_is_it]

ALL my MOO of course, but they would take blood and skin off of a person if they could, and that still wouldn't be enough.

<snipped>



I think the same. One would actually think the haters (those you think he's guilty but also others) would feel satisfied in a way: Michael Jackson died in a tragic way shortly before a big comeback. But no, they don't stop to bash him.

[4Life]

You obviously did not read the actual court transcripts.

Very clear that she did not

Read only what they want to read
See only what they want to see
Hear only what they want to hear

[GentleBreeze]

:tongueside:You DON'T KNOW. By all accounts of family and friends who DID KNOW him he was a good father. The kids loved him and he loved them. Until proven differently - this really needs to be dropped.

I think it is just totally logical that those who really really knew MJ very well would know him much better than anyone who sits far far away... who did not know him at all.:shrug:

I believe every word that Paris had to say and the many others who knew him well that spoke about him. Paris certainly isn't the only one to comment on what a great father MJ was to his children. She just wanted to affirm it herself to the world and she did and it will not be the last glowing words we hear from his children either imo. Their voices will rise and become stronger with age.

imo

[who_is_it]

Excuse me...I don't give a rats butt what the boys mother did or did do.

The defense strategy was brilliant ...gotta give them credit where credit is due.

BUT SHE WASN'T ON TRIAL......It was Michael Jackson and I believed her son was VERY CREDIBLE.

IMO

This is the problem: You don't care what Athena and I have posted just now.

Read... and you'll see there was a pattern of accusing others of sexual abuse.

Obviously you saw my post about the grifters..., then jumped to the conclusion that Athena's post was on the same topic -- didn't even check the link which was about DR (a different topic).

[CinderL.]

I think the same. One would actually think the haters (those you think he's guilty but also others) would feel satisfied in a way: Michael Jackson died in a tragic way shortly before a big comeback. But no, they don't stop to bash him.

I am not a "hater", didn't watch the trial, didn't care. I do care HOW he died. Things need to change. Between ANS and her enablers, and MJ and his enablers, maybe Dr.s will take a good look at themselves, and stop this practice of prescribing anything people ask for. For the "fans", just because MJ's is now dead, that doesn't erase his life. IMO of course.

[MoonHarvest]

I think the same. One would actually think the haters (those you think he's guilty but also others) would feel satisfied in a way: Michael Jackson died in a tragic way shortly before a big comeback. But no, they don't stop to bash him.


Some hate. Some do care I think for boys who they either feel they can relate to, and, or, still feel may have been abused. I understand.

[4Life]

I am not a "hater", didn't watch the trial, didn't care. I do care HOW he died. Things need to change. Between ANS and her enablers, and MJ and his enablers, maybe Dr.s will take a good look at themselves, and stop this practice of prescribing anything people ask for. For the "fans", just because MJ's is now dead, that doesn't erase his life. IMO of course.

And it shouldn't be anyones business how he lived HIS life
He wasn't a murderer, rapist, molester, kidnapper etc....

[Mnchkin426]

Excuse me...I don't give a rats butt what the boys mother did or did do.

The defense strategy was brilliant ...gotta give them credit where credit is due.

BUT SHE WASN'T ON TRIAL......It was Michael Jackson and I believed her son was VERY CREDIBLE.

IMO

Wow! Sorry that you were fooled by two accomplished and admitted liars. By the way, don't think getting at the truth is a "defense strategy"....it's the way our legal system is supposed to work.

[Callie]

Guilty or innocent ...doesn't really matter. What I am speaking of is the inappropriate behavior HE engaged in. Sharing a bed with some one else's child. He knew the trouble it caused before....yet ...he continued. It all could have EASILY been avoided. IMO

If it was simply a matter of cuddling with kids, tucking them in and warm milk and cookies...he should have been busy doing those things with his own children. IMO

Maybe his children were there too.

Kicking back, eating popcorn, candy or whatever, telling stories, watching TV and just having fun.... comfortably.

He saw himself as like Peter Pan. Are we to believe Peter Pan of our childhood days was a pervert? I think it was all totally innocent.

Guess it was a good way for some folks to get lots of bucks at the expense of their children.barf

[CinderL.]

And it shouldn't be anyones business how he lived HIS life
He wasn't a murderer, rapist, molester, kidnapper etc....

I guess people must care or there wouldn't be websites such as this. :confused: Last I looked this site was about court cases, it isn't the MichaelJacksonFanClub. And, I believe there will be many upcoming court cases having to do with MJ's life.

[MoonHarvest]

You are really jumping to conclusions here..The people I speak of have had a long history..not a one time or few time thing..Please dont take my post about this as any judgment..however..when people set a standard..for their seeking of drugs...All I am saying..it is being observe..and documented...and your know why???? Because we..as a medical community have to answer for dispensing those drugs..not just perscibing of those drugs..I have seen many Doctors go down because of inproper prescription supplying..and there is something to be said for "Control" of drugs in general...Listen..I am not talking about creams or ointments..nor over the counter meds..

Labelling or documenting is only earned by frequent requestings lacking history and symptomology..which seasoned professionals flush out....

I have to ask..are you actually adovating handing out such meds like "Candy"? without documenting why?..as those are questions you are asked in COURT!!....If you think that is okay..and not question..So be it..but from my point of view..Not Wise...

LMS

I have a problem with labeling and diagnosing people in a short period of time. I have a problem of any medical staff that would make light of an addict or a person in pain be it physical or mental. I have a problem with western medicine that only seems narrowly willing or able to treat physical pain, as physical pain often manifests after mental stress/pain. The mind /body are connected, as one.

No, by all means dispense drugs wisely.

[4Life]

I guess people must care or there wouldn't be websites such as this. :confused: Last I looked this site was about court cases, it isn't the MichaelJacksonFanClub. And, I believe there will be many upcoming court cases having to do with MJ's life.Is there a Michael Jackson court case going on right now? He is being dragged into court again? :confused:

[Hanalei]

That's your opinion and you don't know him so how do you know he wasn't these things? I think when someone has close contact with children we should all be aware of their actions. IMO


And it shouldn't be anyones business how he lived HIS life
He wasn't a murderer, rapist, molester, kidnapper etc....