Michael Jackson Part 2 - Holiday Board

[Dunlurken]

Since the last thread was over 1,000 posts, I hope it's okay if I start a new one. Carry on. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

bump! Anyone remember that term? :biggrin:

[Dunlurken]

That's some crazy stuff. People have been confused because it goes by two names, one generic and the regular name. Diprivan and the Pro thing.

If he had access to something that was putting him in a coma, no wonder he is dead. RIP Michael.

[truthdiscern]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

[Dunlurken]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

One doctor said it leaves your system immediately. Doesn't show up in hair etc. So wouldn't show up in toxicology reports.

anyone posted a link to it yet?

[aproudmom]

Thanks Dun :)

May 2007 -Propofol Abuse Growing Problem for Anesthesiologists

Lately, the lay press has picked up on the subject. Men’s Health magazine published an article last November titled, “The Junkie in the O.R.,” claiming an “epidemic” of drug-addled anesthesiologists “who are addicted to their own drugs.”

The article cited studies suggesting that “more than 400 drug-addicted anesthesiologists and residents may be working in operating rooms at this moment,” and that the specialty is disproportionately treated for addiction. (Experts interviewed for this article disputed that figure, saying the real number, although nearly impossible to determine, is probably much smaller.)

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?ses=ogst&section_id=1&show=dept&article_id=7579

:ohmy:thanks was reading it as the new thread got started..I am not sure what one of our ER docs was addicted to but he ended up committing suicide he was actually the best doctor in there was so shocked when I went into work one morning and they said Dr T had committed suicide over being addicted to something he was getting from the ER not sure what..was kinda a hush hush..

[aproudmom]

One doctor said it leaves your system immediately. Doesn't show up in hair etc. So wouldn't show up in toxicology reports.

anyone posted a link to it yet?

that is what I heard :confused:but someone sorry can not remember posted it on the other thread..

[Lyndawitha"Y]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

Hey Truth..My luck..thread shuts down when I post...LOL..

Now to answer your question..Autopsy's dont just open up and look at things, they take sample of all sorts of tisssues and fluids..in fact I read somewhere that they took portions of his brain...yikes hard to take, eh?..Anyway, these tissues and fluids are all preserved according to protocol, and yes, they can go back and do tests for specifics at a later date..Me think, with the finding of this Diprivan, they could very well find it in his Liver ( as metabolites), and his urine as well..Tho this drugs works directly on the brain centers, I am not sure if there would be residual drug left behind???

Forensics, really do not need large samples to work with, so feel confident that if this drug was used, they can find it...

LMS

[Dunlurken]

I'm curious why anyone needs "sleep" that badly, that they would allow themselves to be put in a coma. That is not sleep. JMO.

I still think there's something to Michael being in Bahrain. Could it be that was where he was "introduced" to it? I haven't seen the answer to that one yet. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

Hey Truth..My luck..thread shuts down when I post...LOL..

Now to answer your question..Autopsy's dont just open up and look at things, they take sample of all sorts of tisssues and fluids..in fact I read somewhere that they took portions of his brain...yikes hard to take, eh?..Anyway, these tissues and fluids are all preserved according to protocol, and yes, they can go back and do tests for specifics at a later date..Me think, with the finding of this Diprivan, they could very well find it in his Liver ( as metabolites), and his urine as well..Tho this drugs works directly on the brain centers, I am not sure if there would be residual drug left behind???

Forensics, really do not need large samples to work with, so feel confident that if this drug was used, they can find it...

LMSI found it interesting, and kind of gross, that they "freeze dry" the brain before the can do the toxicology. If it's there, which I'm sure it is, hopefully they can find it, and track the source. JMO.

[aproudmom]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

no it was 3 days later IIRC the same day Daddy Joe came out and talked about the kids and they were doing the autopsy as he was talking is what I think he said..but what ever day they went in for the search warrant his body had been released 2 days prior IIRC so if they found it then in the home maybe they went and did something also..not sure how that works but most of the doctors said it may not be in his system but I am not a doc..

[aproudmom]

[QUOTE=Lyndawitha"Y;13252440]I found it interesting, and kind of gross, that they "freeze dry" the brain before the can do the toxicology. If it's there, which I'm sure it is, hopefully they can find it, and track the source. JMO.

That is why the long wait..for tox to come back..

[Dunlurken]

no it was 3 days later IIRC the same day Daddy Joe came out and talked about the kids and they were doing the autopsy as he was talking is what I think he said..but what ever day they went in for the search warrant his body had been released 2 days prior IIRC so if they found it then in the home maybe they went and did something also..not sure how that works but most of the doctors said it may not be in his system but I am not a doc..

I think you're right.... it will not be in his system. Personally, I think a doctor gave it to him, that doctor who was recently hired. I don't think the body has to metabolize it. We shall see.

The thing is this. It has to go through an IV. We shall see where the IV marks are, if any. You can't inject into your butt is what I'm trying to say.

I also heard he had some sort of "shunt" where they can put IV fluids directly into your body without starting a new IV.

ETA: Husband says shunt isn't the right word.

[truthdiscern]

I'm curious why anyone needs "sleep" that badly, that they would allow themselves to be put in a coma. That is not sleep. JMO.

I still think there's something to Michael being in Bahrain. Could it be that was where he was "introduced" to it? I haven't seen the answer to that one yet. JMO.
he used it during the History tour in the late 90's...well, we dont know that for a fact but he traveled with an anesthesiologist who is on record as saying he was there to put him out and bring him in..or something like that..it was also reported that at that time they traveled with the hospital equipment for administering ivs..
that is why i think he felt this would help him get thru the tour..he had used this method successfully before...im just adding my own version of 2 + 2...thats why he was so insistent that murray be hired to be with him 24/7 at 150k per month...I think it was as much a part of the tours success (to him) as the costuming..albeit, with potential danger

[aproudmom]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

Hey Truth..My luck..thread shuts down when I post...LOL..

Now to answer your question..Autopsy's dont just open up and look at things, they take sample of all sorts of tisssues and fluids..in fact I read somewhere that they took portions of his brain...yikes hard to take, eh?..Anyway, these tissues and fluids are all preserved according to protocol, and yes, they can go back and do tests for specifics at a later date..Me think, with the finding of this Diprivan, they could very well find it in his Liver ( as metabolites), and his urine as well..Tho this drugs works directly on the brain centers, I am not sure if there would be residual drug left behind???

Forensics, really do not need large samples to work with, so feel confident that if this drug was used, they can find it...

LMS

thanks a bunch glad to hear it can stay in there it had been bothering me with the doctors saying they may not be able to find it since it is not tested for and is not in the system along time...makes me feel better

[aproudmom]

I think you're right.... it will not be in his system. Personally, I think a doctor gave it to him, that doctor who was recently hired. I don't think the body has to metabolize it. We shall see.

The thing is this. It has to go through an IV. We shall see where the IV marks are, if any. You can't inject into your butt is what I'm trying to say.

I also heard he had some sort of "shunt" where they can put IV fluids directly into your body without starting a new IV.

ETA: Husband says shunt isn't the right word.

like a port so they don't have to start a IV all the time..it also comes in pre-filled syringes from the link I posted yesterday and is made in the UK

[aproudmom]

he used it during the History tour in the late 90's...well, we dont know that for a fact but he traveled with an anesthesiologist who is on record as saying he was there to put him out and bring him in..or something like that..it was also reported that at that time they traveled with the hospital equipment for administering ivs..
that is why i think he felt this would help him get thru the tour..he had used this method successfully before...im just adding my own version of 2 + 2...thats why he was so insistent that murray be hired to be with him 24/7 at 150k per month...I think it was as much a part of the tours success (to him) as the costuming..albeit, with potential danger

That is a lot of money for just being there in case he was needed I must admit:sneaky: and like I said I have not slept in 2 days do not know why..and it is terrible I am so tired so insomnia has got to be horrible and then to know you have to do 2 to 3 tours a week. he needed sleep..not a high IMO

[Dunlurken]

like a port so they don't have to start a IV all the time..it also comes in pre-filled syringes from the link I posted yesterday and is made in the UK

Yes, that's the word. My mom had one. I wonder if Michael had one. Poor Guy, if he did. 5'10" and 112 lbs. someone was NOT taking care of him. I don't care how much money he had. I would have called the cops, 911, something.

They keep saying he looked FABULOUS in the rehersal videos. He's slow, not in shape, and looks bad. JMO.

[Dunlurken]

That is a lot of money for just being there in case he was needed I must admit:sneaky: and like I said I have not slept in 2 days do not know why..and it is terrible I am so tired so insomnia has got to be horrible and then to know you have to do 2 to 3 tours a week. he needed sleep..not a high IMO
It's not a "high". It's a checking out. Same thing as being dead. JMO.

[truthdiscern]

LyndawithaY posted on the last thread that since MJ died the body would not be able to metabolize the drug as quickly...in her post it looks like 31 hrs would be max for it to still be in the body...first autopsy was probably not looking for it...reason for the second autopsy, imo...it was at least a couple days for that, wasn't it? .dont know much about autopsy's so my question is whether the toxicology report ordered could be redone in the case of the first autopsy?..or use the same samples..how does that work?

Hey Truth..My luck..thread shuts down when I post...LOL..

Now to answer your question..Autopsy's dont just open up and look at things, they take sample of all sorts of tisssues and fluids..in fact I read somewhere that they took portions of his brain...yikes hard to take, eh?..Anyway, these tissues and fluids are all preserved according to protocol, and yes, they can go back and do tests for specifics at a later date..Me think, with the finding of this Diprivan, they could very well find it in his Liver ( as metabolites), and his urine as well..Tho this drugs works directly on the brain centers, I am not sure if there would be residual drug left behind???

Forensics, really do not need large samples to work with, so feel confident that if this drug was used, they can find it...

LMS
well that is good news..and if all of this bears out, and the dr did administer this drug..encouraged by mj....and if he had put in a shunt as suggested by another poster( who knows on that one)..but if it is true it is THE biggest indication that he had plans to continue this idea to combat insomnia and the wear from the tour...who killed him?..in some ways, we all did...just by wanting what he was capable of delivering...disregarding and ignorant of the sacrifices to give that to us..
there are so many lessons in all of this...

[aproudmom]

This was a good find I think Athena found it..sorry if I got the wrong person

Propofol is a drug that in a sense doesn’t get you high,” said Omar S. Manejwala, MD, associate medical director at the William J. Farley Center at Williamsburg Place, an addiction treatment clinic in Virginia that, like Talbott, also focuses on physicians. “It blocks out the world,” :sad:

Many have admitted to a history of psychological or physical trauma, such as rape or childhood sexual abuse—which may help explain the drug’s appeal, Dr. Earley said. “What it’s best at is why it’s used in anesthesia—making people unconscious. It’s somewhat dissociative, and can lead to an out-of-body sensation.”

In his experience, Dr. Manejwala said, nearly every propofol addict started injecting to overcome persistent insomnia.

[Dunlurken]

[QUOTE=Lyndawitha"Y;13252440]
well that is good news..and if all of this bears out, and the dr did administer this drug..encouraged by mj....and if he had put in a shunt as suggested by another poster( who knows on that one)..but if it is true it is THE biggest indication that he had plans to continue this idea to combat insomnia and the wear from the tour...who killed him?..in some ways, we all did...just by wanting what he was capable of delivering...disregarding and ignorant of the sacrifices to give that to us..
there are so many lessons in all of this...

He said "This is It". Poor guy could hardly lift his legs. 50 years old and trying to do 50 concerts?

RIP Michael. :rose:

[VC2]

no it was 3 days later IIRC the same day Daddy Joe came out and talked about the kids and they were doing the autopsy as he was talking is what I think he said..but what ever day they went in for the search warrant his body had been released 2 days prior IIRC so if they found it then in the home maybe they went and did something also..not sure how that works but most of the doctors said it may not be in his system but I am not a doc..

Didnt they go out after the nurse spoke out? not completely sure on that

What i am thinking is that they may have found no drugs in his system or only a small dose of demerol, something that could be considered legitimate with pain after a punishing few hours thenight before of dancing. Not an OD and not an amount to kill him and no obvious cod with the first tox results (i believe the coroner had them back, it just takes longer for the neuro and heart to come back sometimes).

Then word of diprivan comes, they send LE back to see if its found in the house, it may or may not have been in his body by then or have needed to go back for specific testing.

jmo

[ABC]

Yes, that's the word. My mom had one. I wonder if Michael had one. Poor Guy, if he did. 5'10" and 112 lbs. someone was NOT taking care of him. I don't care how much money he had. I would have called the cops, 911, something.

They keep saying he looked FABULOUS in the rehersal videos. He's slow, not in shape, and looks bad. JMO.

ITA. I think poor Michael looked sad, thin and unhealthy. Talk of redoing the autopsy and test while the initial autopsy and tests results is not completed is premature. 50 almost 51 years olds take care of themselves.

[aproudmom]

It's not a "high". It's a checking out. Same thing as being dead. JMO.

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?ses=ogst&section_id=1&show=dept&article_id=7579

I know and the link Athena put on the other thread really gets into the reasons and I jut posted pretty much what you said..

[truthdiscern]

[QUOTE=truthdiscern;13252497]

He said "This is It". Poor guy could hardly lift his legs. 50 years old and trying to do 50 concerts?


RIP Michael. :rose:
hats not what the dancers who were rehearsing with him have reported..they were still awed by him..his ability to move and his creativity and ability to make them be better performers...i watched them interviewed last evening and i believe them...he was ready..and in the opinion of his choreographer, better than ever even though he had made adjustments -i assumed he meant for whatever he could no longer do..
they seemed like genuine young people who were thrilled to have been in his company and on the same stage as him..each said they learned so much from him

[Dunlurken]

ITA. I think poor Michael looked sad, thin and unhealthy. Talk of redoing the autopsy and test while the initial autopsy and tests results is not completed is premature.
I disagree a bit. Better to let a second autopsy be completed just to ensure there is no more silliness on the part of the family. Let us not forget, Caylee's family requested a second autopsy. Different circumstances I understand. But let us be done with it so Michael can RIP.

I'm more concerned about the children that aren't his. That's going to be a major battle because of his estate. Those kids aren't his anymore than I'm his child. JMO.

[Shells2]

I disagree a bit. Better to let a second autopsy be completed just to ensure there is no more silliness on the part of the family. Let us not forget, Caylee's family requested a second autopsy. Different circumstances I understand. But let us be done with it so Michael can RIP.

I'm more concerned about the children that aren't his. That's going to be a major battle because of his estate. Those kids aren't his anymore than I'm his child. JMO.

WHAT? So if you were to adopt, or have a surrogate deliver your children, when you passed on, your will wouldn't be recognized because the children weren't "yours"???

[Dunlurken]

WHAT? So if you were to adopt, or have a surrogate deliver your children, when you passed on, your will wouldn't be recognized because the children weren't "yours"???
He never adopted them. He is not the biological dad. So..... who do they belong to? I would guess Debbie Rowe. Sad, but true. JMO.

[VC2]

I can't believe all the Drs that are addicted? No wonder it was no big deal apparently to get it for MJ. That is really scary. :ohmy:

I can imagine that many addicted to some drug, but not diprivan. IMO that is a smaller amount and the ones who say so are telling the truth. It is to lethal, the "high" is like 2 seconds if that, they know the importance of being monitored with it, and they have access to hundreds of other possibilities that they can use themselves safely, high will last longer than 2 secs before they are unconcscious, and doesn't burn so badly they need lidocaine to go with it.

out of all the drugs at hand for them, this imo would be the least likely for most.

IMO

[aproudmom]

Didnt they go out after the nurse spoke out? not completely sure on that

What i am thinking is that they may have found no drugs in his system or only a small dose of demerol, something that could be considered legitimate with pain after a punishing few hours thenight before of dancing. Not an OD and not an amount to kill him and no obvious cod with the first tox results (i believe the coroner had them back, it just takes longer for the neuro and heart to come back sometimes).

Then word of diprivan comes, they send LE back to see if its found in the house, it may or may not have been in his body by then or have needed to go back for specific testing.

jmo

yes they did the next day IIRC and all of the docs I have heard said they knew the day the 1 autopsy was done what killed him but they have to freeze the brain and that takes longer to get back the samples not the brain..sorry but it is what it is..I am not sure if they mean he died of cardiac arrest caused by accidental overdose or what but Dr. Baden Dr Perper and Dr Spitz all said they knew what killed him..it is a open investigation..so they wait for all the tox to come back..I dont have the links so I will put IMO or JMO..lol..

[Dunlurken]

yes they did the next day IIRC and all of the docs I have heard said they knew the day the 1 autopsy was done what killed him but they have to freeze the brain and that takes longer to get back the samples not the brain..sorry but it is what it is..I am not sure if they mean he died of cardiac arrest caused by accidental overdose or what but Dr. Baden Dr Perper and Dr Spitz all said they knew what killed him..it is a open investigation..so they wait for all the tox to come back..I dont have the links so I will put IMO or JMO..lol..

And, boy did LAPD screw up by not making the house a crime scene. What else is missing? :confused:

[truthdiscern]

He never adopted them. He is not the biological dad. So..... who do they belong to? I would guess Debbie Rowe. Sad, but true. JMO.
if DR proceeds, and separates the children..she will be publicly destroyed...

[Shells2]

He never adopted them. He is not the biological dad. So..... who do they belong to? I would guess Debbie Rowe. Sad, but true. JMO.

If he is listed on the birth certificate as the "Father", he supported them financially and raised them, they are "his". Legally, and morally.

[aproudmom]

I just wonder why the family did not find it his mother and Janet had been there with the moving trucks before they came back with a search warrant..wonder if they found something and called if it was found out in the open and not hid just very odd to me a doctor would not get rid of it knowing what could happen..

[VC2]

He never adopted them. He is not the biological dad. So..... who do they belong to? I would guess Debbie Rowe. Sad, but true. JMO.

Not true according to every california attorney who has spoken on it. Because they were born while married to Debbie Rowe and there was no paternity challenge within the first 2 years, the children are his legally. Which seems like a good idea unless you divorce someone after 10 years of marriage and discover that the kids were actually someone elses. You are still liable for their child support

IMO

[KatieLady]

If he is listed on the birth certificate as the "Father", he supported them financially and raised them, they are "his". Legally, and morally.

In Calif that is the case

IMO

[Dunlurken]

If he is listed on the birth certificate as the "Father", he supported them financially and raised them, they are "his". Legally, and morally.

Wrong. I could put Bill Clinton on the birth certificate as the father. Doesn't make it so. JMO.

[truthdiscern]

[QUOTE=truthdiscern;13252497]
--------------------

Lat night i heard a doctor say that this drug will not give him a "restful sleep". So how was this helping MJ? in no ways that i can see. jmo
me either..BUT...he had used it before..he started trying to get it, according to Lee, in January..after he had announced the tour...i think, in his mind, it worked...

[KatieLady]

Wrong. I could put Bill Clinton on the birth certificate as the father. Doesn't make it so. JMO.

In Calif it would have to be proven otherwise (with DNA) That is my understanding IMO

[Dunlurken]

In Calif it would have to be proven otherwise (with DNA) That is my understanding IMO
The DNA will prove he is not the father. Those kids, the oldest ones, are not "mixed". I have a mixed grand daughter. MJ is not the father of those kids. JMO. Now, Blanket, don't have a clue.

DNA tests coming soon? You bet. JMO.

[VC2]

[QUOTE=truthdiscern;13252497]
--------------------

Lat night i heard a doctor say that this drug will not give him a "restful sleep". So how was this helping MJ? in no ways that i can see. jmo

he may have felt it did. Essentially his brain was in a coma while under. When he woke he probably felt more rested than when he could not sleep. He would not know what part of the brain was in what state at what periods as he was under.

I know when i come out of a general i feel like i was asleep and i think partly bc i come out feeling awake and strong.

People die from no sleep but they do put patients in induced coma's sometimes for a month or more. I think its false to say you don't "sleep", you may not have the REM dream sleep but it does shut down a lot of your brain and therefore body and allow it to rest even if its not "restful".

I think some doctors are using words ppl can understand and concepts they can understand rather than trying to confuse them with all the technicalese

IMO

[truthdiscern]

--------

seems to me she has already been publicly destroyed. i would rather see the kids with her than to remain in the whacky jackson family. jmo
oh my...you are entitled to your opinion even though I believe it is misguided..

[Lyndawitha"Y]

[QUOTE=truthdiscern;13252497]
--------------------

Lat night i heard a doctor say that this drug will not give him a "restful sleep". So how was this helping MJ? in no ways that i can see. jmo

Yikes..I see the quoting has gone array....I happen to agree with you..that this drug does not give one a restful sleep. ..but puts you into a coma-like state...Having said that, maybe in MJ's mind because he was able to retire to his numbing, blackness..that was his thinking he got some sleep??!!..It's not even like a trance, or altered state..in fact these coma-induced people dont even hear noise, voices or feel any touch....

Not trying to be silly, but maybe he experienced a "Coma Therapy" and everyone changed the clocks an told him he was out for a whole day...and he thought..wow..I feel rested...It's amazing what we can tell our minds to think and believe....?

MJ, had his obsessions, and no one could alter or change his mind..many tried to..but failed..

LMS

[VC2]

In Calif it would have to be proven otherwise (with DNA) That is my understanding IMO

Actually an attorney on cnn was saying even DNA would not change it since they were married for more than 2 years. Legally he still would be the father.

IMO

[enigma™]

--------------------

Lat night i heard a doctor say that this drug will not give him a "restful sleep". So how was this helping MJ? in no ways that i can see. jmo


Perhaps, psychologically, knowing he was out for a certain period of time helped him feel rested?

[Ontario]

I'm curious why anyone needs "sleep" that badly, that they would allow themselves to be put in a coma. That is not sleep. JMO.

I still think there's something to Michael being in Bahrain. Could it be that was where he was "introduced" to it? I haven't seen the answer to that one yet. JMO.

How long was he there for, and who or where did he stay, I never really followed his where abouts then.

Those (3) children must have lived a very strange life, I guess they only had each other>

[Dunlurken]

Personally, I would hope the court allows the children to stay with Michael's family. That's the moral issue vs. the legal issue. He sure screwed up that one. I don't think he planned on dying. JMO.

[VC2]

straight from a horses mouth for you Dunlurken:

Presumed Father

If any of the following are true, a man is presumed to be the father of a child, unless he or the mother proves otherwise to a court:

* he was married to the mother when the child was conceived or born, although some states do not consider a man to be a presumed father if the couple has separated he attempted to marry the mother (even if the marriage was not valid) and the child was conceived or born during the "marriage."
* he married the mother after the birth and agreed either to have his name on the birth certificate or to support the child, or he welcomed the child into his home and openly held the child out as his own.

In some states, the presumption of paternity is considered conclusive, which means it cannot be disproven, even with contradictory blood tests. In Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U.S. 110 (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court upheld California's presumed father statute as a rational method of protecting the integrity of the family against challenges based on the due process rights of the father and the child. A presumed father must pay child support.
http://www.cadivorceonline.com/calpages/paterntifaq.asp

[Jenny]

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seems to me she has already been publicly destroyed. i would rather see the kids with her than to remain in the whacky jackson family. jmo


I don't think KJ is whacky. I would rather see them with her as opposed to a so-called mother who has sold them twice or more & can't make her mind up as to whether she wants them(looking for more money no doubt)


IMO

[Dunlurken]

Actually an attorney on cnn was saying even DNA would not change it since they were married for more than 2 years. Legally he still would be the father.

IMO

Thank you. That's good news. I hope you're right. If Debbie Rowe doesn't contest the will/estate, we might be okay. JMO. Otherwise..... big time trouble.

[KatieLady]

Actually an attorney on cnn was saying even DNA would not change it since they were married for more than 2 years. Legally he still would be the father.

IMO

You are correct...sorry...I was thinking of a non married couple.

[Jenny]

He's their father. I don't care if the kids doesn't have 1 ounce of his blood in their body.


IMO

[Shells2]

Wrong. I could put Bill Clinton on the birth certificate as the father. Doesn't make it so. JMO.


You are incorrect...

If Bill Clinton was on the birth certificate, was married to your mother, raised you, and financially provided you then he would be your father under the California law.

You should read up on it..

[ABC]

I disagree a bit. Better to let a second autopsy be completed just to ensure there is no more silliness on the part of the family. Let us not forget, Caylee's family requested a second autopsy. Different circumstances I understand. But let us be done with it so Michael can RIP.

I'm more concerned about the children that aren't his. That's going to be a major battle because of his estate. Those kids aren't his anymore than I'm his child. JMO.

I understand there was a second autopsy done on MJ paid for by the family. As there were two done on poor Daniel Smith. Dr Perper did an excellent autopsy and kept tons of all the samples and folks still want poor Anna and Daniel disturbed and want them subjected to another autopsy. Don't the dead have a right to peace too? The problem is not the autopsy being preformed by Doctor's with educations, degrees and vast experience but lay people refusing to believe when they don't get the results they want. Look at Mays, some posts were already in court, suing the Airlines, when it was obvious that it was not a head injury but clearly cardiovascular disease.
I disagree. There will be no court battle over custody of those kids. They belong with their grandmother who was choosen by their father in his will. Unless some man thinks he is the father and wants custody, then why folks care anyway?

[Dunlurken]

I honestly wish that this would be put to rest already. MJ is legally the father - period. There are two laws that make it so:

1) He was married to Debbie Rowe at the time of birth which automatically makes him the father due to marriage laws. Even if Debbie Rowe had an affair while they were married -- he would still be the childrens' legal father.

2) The only exception to the above - would be had the bio father contested this within the first 2 years. He didn't so moot point.

Michael Jackson is the legal father of his children and the cared, loved, nurtured and supported them AND is the ONLY parent the children know.
And, Debbie is the legal/biological mother. You can't have it both ways. JMO.

[aproudmom]

Michael Jackson: Cherilyn Lee, Diprivan® (propofol), and Myers' Cocktail

Last evening, California nutritionist and registered nurse Ms Cherilyn Lee gave an interview to Campbell Brown on CNN (and this AP exclusive report) describing Michael Jackson's repeated requests of her for the intravenous sedative drug for his insomnia. She wisely rejected his requests, instead providing him with a vitamin and mineral "energy" injection called Myers' cocktail.

Diprivan is the trade name for propofol (PROPE-uh-fawl), a product of AstraZeneca whose healthcare professionals website on the drug is currently closed. Estimated US annual sales of Diprivan are $375-400 million USD

, its safety is one of the reasons it is used for outpatient surgery, together with its rapid onset and quick recovery. However, the prescribing information for Diprivan notes specifically that the dose should be reduced when the drug is used together with opioids (such as meperidine or fentanyl) or other sedatives such as benzodiazepines.

Note added: Later today, KevinMD (Dr Kevin Pho) further emphasized 1) there is no scientific basis for its unapproved indication in insomnia and that 2) propofol should never be found in a home.

He goes on to say:
That is some serious malpractice, bordering on criminal, if any doctor had indeed injected Jackson with Diprivan simply to help him sleep.

However, most relevant to the Jackson case is that propofol can cause cardiac tachyarrhythmias (rhythmic disturbances at high heart rate), especially in people predisposed to cardiac problems.

As I wrote last week in my blog post on Demerol ® (meperidine), Jackson's reported long-term use of this analgesic for back pain may have already primed him for cardiac problems due to the accumulation of a toxic metabolite, normeperidine. However - and please note - that while all of my pharmacology/toxicology discussion is based in science and medicine, any extrapolation to the Michael Jackson case and the cause of his death is speculation at this point. I only have access to the reports regarding his potential drug exposure that all of you do. Only time will tell what is the truth once the full autopsy and toxicology reports are released.

Most relevant to the Jackson case is that the safety of Myers' Cocktail is not yet clear. I am particularly concerned with the calcium composition of this intravenous brew; while not likely to be toxic on its own, if dosed as listed, I do have some concern if Mr Jackson already had pre-existing cardiac problems and/or was receiving drugs such as Demerol (meperidine) or Diprivan (propofol) which each pose a risk of cardiac toxicity.

So, while press reports will be focusing today on Diprivan (propofol), let us not forget to consider the potential contributions of this "natural, alternative" therapy in the sad case of his death.


http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/07/michael_jackson_cherilyn_lee_d.php

[Dunlurken]

I saw a guy on TV who was trying to stop taking Xanax. So he switched to herbal medicine. Put him in a coma for months. they couldn't understand why. The mixture of herbal medicine and controlled medicines don't work. JMO.

[Shells2]

And, Debbie is the legal/biological mother. You can't have it both ways. JMO.


Biological and legal are not one and the same.

[Mamie]

I don't think KJ is whacky. I would rather see them with her as opposed to a so-called mother who has sold them twice or more & can't make her mind up as to whether she wants them(looking for more money no doubt)


IMO

I agree completely! They need to stay with Katherine, that was Michael's first choice and he loved his children with all his heart. I'm sure that if he thought DR was such a hot choice he may have spoken with her ahead of time about taking all three if something happened to him and then he would have given her more than enough money for herself and the kids. But since that didn't happen and he specifically omitted her from his will, we can safely say he knew she didn't give two hoots about Prince and Paris and she might as well have only been a surrogate.

I do think, though, for continuity, that Grace needs to be very much involved in the children's lives. Also, Grace may lend strength to Katherine where she might need it regarding Joe. After a time when things are definitely more settled, legal boundaries can be set up regarding Joe and his influence over the children and the money. We've seen how he wants to take over and be at the helm and he honestly thinks he is. This, I believe, is one man that will never stop trying to be in control, so strength will be needed to constantly defeat him. JMO

[*Serenity*]

As we reported days ago, law enforcement found Propofol inside Jackson's house. Propofol is an anesthesia, which should never be administered outside a hospital, and it's looking like that drug killed Jackson. If cops find who supplied it and who administered it, the docs could well be prosecuted for manslaughter.

http://www.tmz.com/

[Firehead11]

I think there is a big difference being the BIRTH mother and being the father in this case. We must also remember that the children that DR had for Michael are 12 and 10 and I hope that any judge will ask them where they want to be. DR hasn't been involved in their lives, those children only know the Jackson family as their family.

IMO, she is after MORE money. If she puts enough pressure on the Jacksons. they just might offer her more money.

[Pretty Leaf]

Thank you. That's good news. I hope you're right. If Debbie Rowe doesn't contest the will/estate, we might be okay. JMO. Otherwise..... big time trouble.

I believe that DR has not decided to contest at this point is money. If the Jackson's agree to pay her or to keep her on a payroll so to speak then she will not contest. Is she does not contest then there is something in it for her.

If she does contest it is not out of love for those 2 children, which she was entitled to see over the past years and has not. It is about the $$$$ that comes with those kids.

[aproudmom]

If all this is true MJ did not have a chance if he had not died now it would have happened soon.so I would say all these talkers should have called the law should have reported to DFC reported the doctors they could have done more MJ or not they all knew what was going on and now they want to cry about it..he was sick a very sick person I don't care if he knew it was dangerous he had doctors who knew it could kill him and they still got it..alot of blood on alot of hands IMO:cursing:


The elimination half-life of propofol has been estimated to be between 2–24 hours. However, its duration of clinical effect is much shorter because propofol is rapidly distributed into peripheral tissues. When used for IV sedation, propofol typically wears off in minutes. Propofol is versatile; the drug can be given for short or prolonged sedation as well as for general anesthesia. Its use is not associated with nausea as is often seen with opioid medications. These characteristics of rapid onset and recovery along with its amnestic effects[15] have led to its widespread use for sedation and anesthesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propofol
Propofol infusion syndrome is a rare syndrome which affects patients undergoing long-term treatment with high doses of the anaesthetic and sedative drug Propofol. It can lead to cardiac failure, rhabdomyolysis, metabolic acidosis and renal failure and is often fatal.

[Shells2]

I believe that DR has not decided to contest at this point is money. If the Jackson's agree to pay her or to keep her on a payroll so to speak then she will not contest. Is she does not contest then there is something in it for her.

If she does contest it is not out of love for those 2 children, which she was entitled to see over the past years and has not. It is about the $$$$ that comes with those kids.


I totally agree.. that woman has creeped me out from the get go. What kind of person can give birth to babies and just walk away from them like that? She doesn't deserve them!

[Jenny]

I agree completely! They need to stay with Katherine, that was Michael's first choice and he loved his children with all his heart. I'm sure that if he thought DR was such a hot choice he may have spoken with her ahead of time about taking all three if something happened to him and then he would have given her more than enough money for herself and the kids. But since that didn't happen and he specifically omitted her from his will, we can safely say he knew she didn't give two hoots about Prince and Paris and she might as well have only been a surrogate.

I do think, though, for continuity, that Grace needs to be very much involved in the children's lives. Also, Grace may lend strength to Katherine where she might need it regarding Joe. After a time when things are definitely more settled, legal boundaries can be set up regarding Joe and his influence over the children and the money. We've seen how he wants to take over and be at the helm and he honestly thinks he is. This, I believe, is one man that will never stop trying to be in control, so strength will be needed to constantly defeat him. JMO


I couldn't agree more about Grace. She has been a constant in their lives & I believe she really cares about them :)

[*Serenity*]

IMO a parent is the person who brought you up, nurtured you, and was there for you. Not someone who chose to give up that right. You only have to look at adoption to see my point. The people that matter are the people that were always there for you. I speak from experience, being adopted. DR was not there and chose not to be, so definitely as far from a parent as you can be, whether blood or not, it does not matter and, believe me, it doesn't.

I hope she doesn't get the kids for their sake.

jmo


I hope she doesn't get another dollar from the Jackson funds period, and hopefully she will not get her paws on the children, the very children she uses as pawns for $$$$$$.

I am so hoping she gets a Judge that will spit all of her words/actions right back in her face! I doubt a Judge will seperate the 3 children, and she has no rights to Blanket at all. The two older children hopefully will have a voice with their wishes as well, at least I believe they are old enough to speak out.

[Ice Cycle]

I hope she doesn't get another dollar from the Jackson funds period, and hopefully she will not get her paws on the children, the very children she uses as pawns for $$$$$$.

I am so hoping she gets a Judge that will spit all of her words/actions right back in her face! I doubt a Judge will seperate the 3 children, and she has no rights to Blanket at all. The two older children hopefully will have a voice with their wishes as well, at least I believe they are old enough to speak out.

It's MO that once she took the money for those children that she gave up her rights and who Michael chose to leave them to was then his decision, I believe the court will also see it that way.
One thing that does bother me though is why he used her as the bio Mother and be married to her, seems it would of been less complicated to use a surrogate that was not the bio Mother if he was not going to be the Bio, in case their was any future problems.
Does anyone know if she has any other kids?

[True2Blues]

I saw a guy on TV who was trying to stop taking Xanax. So he switched to herbal medicine. Put him in a coma for months. they couldn't understand why. The mixture of herbal medicine and controlled medicines don't work. JMO.

It's a very common belief that if something is Herbal it's completely safe, and that's not true at all. There are many Herbal medicines that interact badly with prescription medicines. It's something you really have to watch, but it isn't often highlighted.

[Cardinal]

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2009/07/04/jackson-book-madonna.html

"Montreal-born author Ian Halperin's new book Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson has been snapped up by a major French publisher, which will distribute 100,000 copies of the unauthorized biography."

"Halperin, who also penned an unauthorized biography of Cirque du Soleil founder Guy Laliberté, says his book is a "vindication" of Jackson in the face of accusations of child abuse he faced in the 1990s.

"We hope that this book will give him back his reputation as much as we can — his glory as an artist — because we feel that he had been destroyed morally, psychologically and also as an artist by all these accusations and by the way his entourage was pressuring him out of greed to do those London concerts," said Halperin in an interview earlier this week."

It's available for pre-order through amazon.

[VC2]

Honestly, I know for a fact Katherine Jackson's and Diana Ross' age is going to be a huge factor in the custody hearing. I do hope when they file their motion they include Grace as a care giver or have a back up plan say such as letting Rebbie Jackson possibly taking custody provided she has maintained contact with the children. The biggest fear I see here is that neither gets them and they go into foster care. JMHO

In ever case there is always a possibility but Diana Ross from all i know is in great shape for 65. There is no reason to think she is to old to be guardian to 7-12 year olds and raised 3 chidlren herself.

In some places a judge might wonder about age, certainly katherines, but Diana? she is young!

[*Serenity*]

It's MO that once she took the money for those children that she gave up her rights and who Michael chose to leave them to was then his decision, I believe the court will also see it that way.
One thing that does bother me though is why he used her as the bio Mother and be married to her, seems it would of been less complicated to use a surrogate that was not the bio Mother if he was not going to be the Bio, in case their was any future problems.
Does anyone know if she has any other kids?

NO-- she never wanted to be Mother
She had the children for Jackson to be a Father not for her to be a Mother-- her own words.

She has a bunch of dogs and horses. She breeds horses and her 30 some dogs swim in a rather nice swimming pool at her ranch. Yea... I know -- sounds a little over the top to own to have 30 dogs.
She has no photos around her ranch of the children and why.... according to her that was an agreement between her and Michael.
She is a known liar so I don't believe anything coming from her.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

This contradicts what some of the THs have said that you wouldn't use it for minor surgery:

Propofol is used for procedures including planned heart defibrillation, cardiac by-pass surgery and brain surgery; as well as for minor surgery where in smaller doses it causes light sedation. Its warning label clearly categorizes it as a powerful anesthetic and that those who administer it should 1) be trained in general anesthesia and 2) not performing the actual surgical procedure.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154127.php

Athena..course we all know that talking heads always know everything..100% and never miss when giving there opinions...right?..(sarcasm intended)

Just as a side note regarding Talking Heads....I recall on numerous times I heard a "TH" and went to myself???Whoa..what the heck???..Then was able to find facts to either contradict it or show it wasnt actually how they portray'd...I even recall during the Sommer's case listening to the expert..say somethings and went Whoa..what??..then the defense expert cleared it up..however.the jury went with pros. expert..along with other emotional suggestions and convicted...well, we know how that turned out...

Anyway..~~ my point is..TH's are just that>> Talking Heads...who may or may not know of what they speak..or only have half the info..Sad but true...24 hour media has made it lucrative for these TH's to spin what limited info they have..either about the case..or about the circumstances...Makes me chuckle..except for the fact..that some do HANG on every word they say!!

Off my soapbox about TH's..sorry!

LMS

[*Serenity*]

It's MO that once she took the money for those children that she gave up her rights and who Michael chose to leave them to was then his decision, I believe the court will also see it that way.
One thing that does bother me though is why he used her as the bio Mother and be married to her, seems it would of been less complicated to use a surrogate that was not the bio Mother if he was not going to be the Bio, in case their was any future problems.
Does anyone know if she has any other kids?

I think he trusted her and she betrayed him-- not once but several times, especially going back demanding more $$$. I think he learned a lesson from ole Deb-- and when it came to Blanket he did the surrogate and no Mother mentioned on the BC. I think his lawyer picked Blanket up from the hospital and delivered him to Michael, the surrogate did not know who was getting the baby.

[VC2]

It's a very common belief that if something is Herbal it's completely safe, and that's not true at all. There are many Herbal medicines that interact badly with prescription medicines. It's something you really have to watch, but it isn't often highlighted.

There was a nutritionist who used to shows on PBS on diet etc. and he used to really go into the "natural" stuff, saying your body breaks all sugars down into one of 2 or 3 etc. and it doesn't matter if its natural turnbinado sugar or if its white sugar, its still SUGAR.

Then in response to some woman who went on and on about changing her diet and using all natural things he said "syphilis is natural too, do you want that? " :laugh:

I never forgot it and he was so right about not everything natural is healthy and not everything synthetic is bad

IMO

[Mamie]

Honestly, I know for a fact Katherine Jackson's and Diana Ross' age is going to be a huge factor in the custody hearing. I do hope when they file their motion they include Grace as a care giver or have a back up plan say such as letting Rebbie Jackson possibly taking custody provided she has maintained contact with the children. The biggest fear I see here is that neither gets them and they go into foster care. JMHO

Age is going to be a factor where Katherine is concerned (hoping they don't even consider Diana Ross) but I think with the family ties, possibly Grace and I sincerely hope she is in this mix, plus additional help if it's needed for the children----I don't think you'd have to worry that they would be going into foster care. Talk about your problems for the kids-----yuck, foster care!

I would worry about someone kidnapping any of them if they went to DR. Her not caring would cause her to be careless. It could also be a concern with the Jacksons but I think they would take measures to prevent that being used to security personnel wherein DR would see paying out that money as not really needed. JMO

[mrsmcgoo]

I hope this wasn't discussed, I didn't see it if it has been.

My mother and I were talking about MJ things and she reminded me that MJ is Nicole Richie's Godfather. She also said that one of the programs reported that Nicole was willing to take MJ's children.

I have searched and searched trying to find anything about Nicole's saying she would take the children, but haven't found a thing. Anyone else hear this? :confused:

(My poor Mom sometimes gets mixed up and she could be getting Nicole confused with someone else. )

JMO

[Lyndawitha"Y]

I think he trusted her and she betrayed him-- not once but several times, especially going back demanding more $$$. I think he learned a lesson from ole Deb-- and when it came to Blanket he did the surrogate and no Mother mentioned on the BC. I think his lawyer picked Blanket up from the hospital and delivered him to Michael, the surrogate did not know who was getting the baby.

I do think that the word betrayal can be equated with the term "Taking Advantage"..and I do believe that even MJ took advantage too in business dealings..example~

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/17/michael-jackson-sued-sheikh

Michael Jackson sued by King of Bahrain's sonThe credit crunch has hit Jacko. Last week, he was forced to sell his home. Now, the troubled star is being sued for $7m for failing to deliver an album financed by a Bahraini prince

It seems when you are in the entertainment field or any field where one has power ..people take advantage of others....

Michael takes advantage of a Pharmacy, doesnt pay his bills, gets sued..and then settles for less than what he owes...Who benefits?? Usually the one with the money..and the laws on their side...

I dont think of Michael as a victim, not one bit...and for all those that profited from their association with him..Michael also profited from his liasons... It's called in their business "Symbiotic Relationships"..

LMS

[Mamie]

Wow, I'm watching "The Jacksons: An American Dream" on VH1. I've never seen it before and I didn't (don't) know Joe Jackson ever cheated on Katherine. Is this a factual movie, does anyone know? TIA

[Cardinal]

What you say makes sense. Just that I have personal knowledge of this having happened. :( I've just been reading some family law but for a different state re: best interests of the child -- and Grace actually meets every single criteria for 3rd party custody in that state. Not sure about CA.

But Grace would have to file a petition for custody, right? And her status with INS may prove troublesome.

[Cardinal]

Yes she would have to file and if KJ couldn't get them -- I would think the Jacksons would pay legal fees for her.
Uh-oh Is she not a legal resident?

I think she's a legal resident by virtue of her marriage to whats-his-name, but it seems to be a marriage in name only, and INS could easily challenge that.

I think she'd be better off to come to an agreement with KJ and stay off the radar.

[mrsmcgoo]

Ok...I 'll take that as a no, that no one else heard about Nicole Richie making statements about the children. :biggrin:

[Cardinal]

Irate Michael fans who want the best for the kids, can send ALOUD message, They should be under Grace's watchful eye/ care. They trust her, IMO

I think Grace partnering with KJ to raise the children would be a great solution, and may minimize the concerns about KJ's age.

[GentleBreeze]

The DNA will prove he is not the father. Those kids, the oldest ones, are not "mixed". I have a mixed grand daughter. MJ is not the father of those kids. JMO. Now, Blanket, don't have a clue.

DNA tests coming soon? You bet. JMO.

That is not the way the law is though Dunnie. He is listed as the father. The children are 12,11 and 7 and no one in all that time has refuted that he is their father.

They have two years from birth to refute that he is not the legal father. That time span has long ago past.

imo

[aproudmom]

Just in case you have a myspace neat site with some good music...I got a new friend:biggrin:
http://www.myspace.com/michaeljackson

[GentleBreeze]

I think Grace partnering with KJ to raise the children would be a great solution, and may minimize the concerns about KJ's age.

I really am not concerned that much about KJ. She seems to be a very healthy active woman no matter her age. I am sure she too will have instructions who will care for the children should she get unable or passes away.

Now it would be wonderful if Grace could come back and be their Nanny again and assist KJ but KJ will have many more willing to help her than just GR.

imo

[Mamie]

What you say makes sense. Just that I have personal knowledge of this having happened. :( I've just been reading some family law but for a different state re: best interests of the child -- and Grace actually meets every single criteria for 3rd party custody in that state. Not sure about CA.

When I was a child (all of us kids in my family are adopted), we took in my half sister while her mother had Tuberculosis and was recovering. My bio dad was married to my half sister's mother at the time and he said he knew a family who would take her for awhile. Awhile turned out to be a little over two years. When we got her, she was a year old and could barely sit up. She had a flat head from being left in the crib on her back all the time and a diaper rash so bad that my mom cried every time she had to change her diaper and back then they used cornstarch for diaper rashes----no such thing as Desitin or things beyond that. Anyhow, my mother sewed for her and the whole family fell in love with her. It was clear she had been neglected in her own mother's care. So when the mother recuperated and they came to get her, it was a very painful day for our family but the authorites along with the Catholic Aid Society said that her mother should have her back since she is the "fit and rightful mother". So now she's 3-1/2 when we lost her and as time went by, she missed going to Kindergarten because her mother kept her home to do chores. It took our family five years to get her back through the courts because no one wanted to say bad things against the mother for what they had witnessed and you needed hard proof or lots of witnesses. Anyhow, when we got her back she was 8 and had lost her sight in one eye, 50% of her hearing in one ear and about 15% in the other ear----all due to beatings by her mother. Her mother had other children during the course of this time, a couple from my bio father and a girl from her next husband but the only child she beat was my sister. My point is unless things have really changed here in California (which I hope they have) it takes quite a bit to keep children from their bio mother. I so hope that judges look at things differently now and whomever is on the bench with this case takes the kids (the two older ones) one at a time in chambers and warms up to them and really asks what they'd like and where they'd like to live. JMO

[Mamie]

Pretty much -- actually prouced by Jermaine Jackson.

From what I understand the affair scene is not accurate because Katherine, LaToya and Janet actually went to Joe Jackson's office where the woman worked and beat her up. The woman threatened criminal charges but a cash settlement was reached. I've also read he had more than one affair but don't remember where I read it. Maybe J. Randy Taborelli's book ??

Ahh, thank you dear! I can always count on you for great info!
Thanks again Athena!

[Cardinal]

When I was a child (all of us kids in my family are adopted), we took in my half sister while her mother had Tuberculosis and was recovering. My bio dad was married to my half sister's mother at the time and he said he knew a family who would take her for awhile. Awhile turned out to be a little over two years. When we got her, she was a year old and could barely sit up. She had a flat head from being left in the crib on her back all the time and a diaper rash so bad that my mom cried every time she had to change her diaper and back then they used cornstarch for diaper rashes----no such thing as Desitin or things beyond that. Anyhow, my mother sewed for her and the whole family fell in love with her. It was clear she had been neglected in her own mother's care. So when the mother recuperated and they came to get her, it was a very painful day for our family but the authorites along with the Catholic Aid Society said that her mother should have her back since she is the "fit and rightful mother". So now she's 3-1/2 when we lost her and as time went by, she missed going to Kindergarten because her mother kept her home to do chores. It took our family five years to get her back through the courts because no one wanted to say bad things against the mother for what they had witnessed and you needed hard proof or lots of witnesses. Anyhow, when we got her back she was 8 and had lost her sight in one eye, 50% of her hearing in one ear and about 15% in the other ear----all due to beatings by her mother. Her mother had other children during the course of this time, a couple from my bio father and a girl from her next husband but the only child she beat was my sister. My point is unless things have really changed here in California (which I hope they have) it takes quite a bit to keep children from their bio mother. I so hope that judges look at things differently now and whomever is on the bench with this case takes the kids (the two older ones) one at a time in chambers and warms up to them and really asks what they'd like and where they'd like to live. JMO

:rose: Bless your sister, and bless your mother and all of you. And I think you're right - it's very difficult to keep children from their biological mother. Those adopted children whose birth mothers got them back come to mind, too.

I'm hoping that the fact this is a totally unique situation, and that the children are old enough to express their preferences, will allow some flexibility in the decision. Maybe DR and KJ could agree to share custody - based upon DR's previous behavior, they wouldn't have to worry about seeing much of her.

[Ontario]

It's MO that once she took the money for those children that she gave up her rights and who Michael chose to leave them to was then his decision, I believe the court will also see it that way.
One thing that does bother me though is why he used her as the bio Mother and be married to her, seems it would of been less complicated to use a surrogate that was not the bio Mother if he was not going to be the Bio, in case their was any future problems.
Does anyone know if she has any other kids?

I might be incorrect, but I believe she lives with a female, on her Horse Ranch which means so very much to her.

I am just wondering, so please do not jump out and kill me, but was Michael Jackson a sexless man, I have always wondered that. I know he wa married to Lisa Maria, but I do not believe that it was a real marriage, I think she liked him, and felt sorry for him, sje had always kept her home and her children were never at his house, or if they were she was always with them.

[GentleBreeze]

Age is going to be a factor where Katherine is concerned (hoping they don't even consider Diana Ross) but I think with the family ties, possibly Grace and I sincerely hope she is in this mix, plus additional help if it's needed for the children----I don't think you'd have to worry that they would be going into foster care. Talk about your problems for the kids-----yuck, foster care!

I would worry about someone kidnapping any of them if they went to DR. Her not caring would cause her to be careless. It could also be a concern with the Jacksons but I think they would take measures to prevent that being used to security personnel wherein DR would see paying out that money as not really needed. JMO

I think what will be paramount to a Judge especially with these particular children is who is better equipped to handle the media and hold the public at bay away from these famous children by giving them privacy and normalcy.

Katherine even though a part of a very famous family has for the most part managed to remain low key and knows the best when it comes to protecting the children from the media.

These children will never wind up in foster care. They have those in their own families ready and willing to care of all three of them. Together as they should be.

imo

[Cardinal]

I really am not concerned that much about KJ. She seems to be a very healthy active woman no matter her age. I am sure she too will have instructions who will care for the children should she get unable or passes away.

Now it would be wonderful if Grace could come back and be their Nanny again and assist KJ but KJ will have many more willing to help her than just GR.

imo

I'm concerned that given the children's rather nomadic upbringing, KJ's age will be a factor if the judge is looking at providing a stable home for the children until they're of age. By the time Blanket is 18, KJ will be 90, if she's still living.

[aproudmom]

Is it only freaking in Indiana that it is nasty and rainy and no satellite I am missing my sports and it is pizzen me off..:biggrin: guess I will just listen to music:angry:

http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.artistalbums&artistid=1592921&albumid=8084746

[Cardinal]

Oh, wow. If this is a preview of the book.........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197466/Revealed-Michael-Jacksons-revenge-grave.html

"I was told last week that he had recently begun a relationship with a male artist. However, Jackson was afraid of being revealed as gay, believing many would view this as confirmation of the false allegations made against him that he was a child molester."

"On Wednesday I received an email from a source saying the family are still fighting over Jackson's estate: 'The family was determined to get a will that meets their demands. They have millions at stake here. They can profit hugely from this.' "

[Mamie]

:rose: Bless your sister, and bless your mother and all of you. And I think you're right - it's very difficult to keep children from their biological mother. Those adopted children whose birth mothers got them back come to mind, too.

I'm hoping that the fact this is a totally unique situation, and that the children are old enough to express their preferences, will allow some flexibility in the decision. Maybe DR and KJ could agree to share custody - based upon DR's previous behavior, they wouldn't have to worry about seeing much of her.

I'm hoping that this is a unique situation as well.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. My sister, although not without medical problems now, has had a very fulfilling life. She's worked as a senior administrator for a Sheriff's Dept. for over 20 years here in CA and trains dogs for the blind in her off time. She's a wonderful person!

[Tokyo Rose]

I agree. I know it is going to be a huge factor which is why we brought up Grace - perhaps to get co-custody in the event KJ dies. Not for anything no matter what anyone says KJ has been a tremendously strong woman given all she has been through. Tom Meserau describes her as "the rock" JMO

I thought the children were to go to Diana Ross if anything happens to KJ.

[aproudmom]

No but the fact that the supposed birth mother did give them up IS. This is a huge factor and says it all imo.

3 times she just wants money..she does not want those kids came out of her own mouth not ours

[Tokyo Rose]

No but the fact that the supposed birth mother did give them up IS. This is a huge factor and says it all imo.

I believe her contract to give up her children to MJ is now void since he is dead, no?

[Cardinal]

a book so fast???????????????
TY:rolleyes: ICK, no thanks, :closedeyes:

According to the article I posted earlier, it was already on the presses when he died. The release was intended to coincide with the UK tour.

[VC2]

According to Lisa, if you believe her, the marriage was not a sham. Personally I've always thought of MJ being asexual or perhaps she was the only one? JMO

I dont think asexual,i could see Lisa Marie being the only one tho. He had such a bad body image of himself, i don't think he ever was going to be comfortable with the messy and very vulnerable nakedness of sex. With maybe a couple of exceptions, a woman whom he had known all his life and had seen the changes plus whom he could trust bc she had lived in the same bubble of celebrity he did. I always wonder about brooke shields too but i doubt it..don't think they were so close that he would expose himself like that to possible ridicule. If grace was the "friend" in his life i could see that too..lived with him for years and because of her close relationship to him and the kids its possible..i am sure she must have seen him at vulnerable times without sex and she had provedher trustability. We never heard one peep from her anything over the years.

Honestly with JC describing the "spotted penis" - which as i have said, i can imagine a hundred ways that accidentally occurred and had no sexual connotation whatsoever, it seems clear his vitiligo was bad enough to affect his sexual organs as well. There are very together adults who have difficulty with their self image in that area be it women with mastectomies, men who have scarred bodies etc etc. and to imagine that MJ would have any less of a complex about it is impossible IMO

Let alone the fact he knew that if he hired an escort, had a supposed girlfriend like most people do (you meet them and a month or so later you start having sex) there would probably pictures sold to tabloids everywhere, i think his only option was on his own and through his music. Many an adult has taken care of it themselves, so that isn't unusual. What is, is a situation where he really had no other options.

IMO

[Mamie]

I think what will be paramount to a Judge especially with these particular children is who is better equipped to handle the media and hold the public at bay away from these famous children by giving them privacy and normalcy.

Katherine even though a part of a very famous family has for the most part managed to remain low key and knows the best when it comes to protecting the children from the media.

These children will never wind up in foster care. They have those in their own families ready and willing to care of all three of them. Together as they should be.

imo

I agree, GB, 100%. The Jackson family is much more than well equipped to care for all three of these children and they already know and love them. What more could anyone want? Let's hope the court sees it as we do. JMO

[Cardinal]

LOL UK story, but was delightful, :scared::tonguewag:

Hey, I didn't write it.

[Tokyo Rose]

It think it became null and void when the judge said it was. People aren't allwoed to sell their children, contract or not.


imo...of course.

The appeals court ruled she still had parental rights. I don't remember any judge commenting on the surrogate arrangements.

Surrogates are hired all the time to carry people's babies and are paid to do so. It's not unusual.

jmo

[aproudmom]

How can the fans having never met any of the involved parties determine what is the best for the kids? The fan's opinions will not be a consideration in the court making that decision.

imo...of course.

being a vessel does not make a mother she said it in her own words which those kids I am sure knows since she broke that agreement and went on TV that is one reason MJ stopped paying her she agreed to things and then went on TV showing her doggy's in the pool and the pics of her horses and talking about she was just his womb...bla bla bla I can go on I just read what was in the court doc the of all the times he had to pay her and get her out of debt over her animals and credit cards...also any vessel that cared abut their kids and went to court saying you was worried after that doc of MB's when MJ said there was nothing wrong with giving children love and allowing them to sleep in your bed...YES I DID NOT AGREE..but you know what she was not to worried cause she turned around and took money..MONEY? KIDS SAFETY? SHE WENT WITH THE MONEY...END OF STORY...ALL JMO

[dinojen]

Interesting read... I think his children will be well cared for... and I think there are few that knew the true Michael... but from what I have been reading he sure sounds like he loved his children.. and only wanted the best for them. It's MO that the last person they need to be with is Debbie Rowe.


http://www.comcast.net/articles/music/20090704/US.Jackson.Tohme/


Hopefully this man will continue to watch over Michael's children's finances.

[Cardinal]

No is right. She gave up her rights and, that makes no difference to whether MJ is dead. She has made her position perfectly clear by giving them up and having no interest in them. It is obvious her motives now are only monetary gain, not the childrens' wellbeing. They should stay with those that love and care for them already and have done so all their lives, not a stranger who wanted nothing to do with them. Blood or not, it really doesn't matter and it totally doesn't. Blood means nothing; it is those that have cared for them through their lives that do.

imo

I don't disagree with you about her motives, or about caring for them being more important than blood.

But IIRC, her rights were restored. And a biological parent has strong standing, like it or not.

[Mamie]

Is it only freaking in Indiana that it is nasty and rainy and no satellite I am missing my sports and it is pizzen me off..:biggrin: guess I will just listen to music:angry:

http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.artistalbums&artistid=1592921&albumid=8084746

Poor baby! That is my great fear--------days off or a holiday long weekend and NO DANG TV!!! (True story!)

[Tokyo Rose]

I believe KJ and Debbie Rowe will reach an agreement. IIRC KJ has already said the children should know their biological mother and would allow visitation. Am I right about that?

[Tokyo Rose]

So are you saying that DR should have custody of the children that she has show absolutely no interest in whatsoever. Hmmm......

No, not at all. I think she should have some visitation rights though.

[Tokyo Rose]

I know. I wasn't talking about the surrogate, I was talking about D. Rowe.

I don't understand. D. Rowe was a surrogate. imo

[Cardinal]

I disagree. If a parent has given up their rights to a child, then they have made their call then. Crikey, if this was the case the world of adopted kids would become a minefield. Blood parents maybe changing their minds years later; what a mess that would be. No different to here. The courts, if they are fair, will see that.

I think adoption is a different set of rules. DR's rights were restored:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jDOMKiiRyR4KJWq5bIFiPJ5YJrHw

Rowe signed away her parental rights to her two children in 2001, describing Jackson as a "wonderful man... a brilliant father."

However a Los Angeles judge reversed the order in 2004 after Rowe cited concerns over publicity related to Jackson's prosecution for child molestation."

I'm not supporting her right to custody; I'm just saying she has legal standing to seek it.

[incidentally]

Oh, wow. If this is a preview of the book.........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197466/Revealed-Michael-Jacksons-revenge-grave.html

"I was told last week that he had recently begun a relationship with a male artist. However, Jackson was afraid of being revealed as gay, believing many would view this as confirmation of the false allegations made against him that he was a child molester."

"On Wednesday I received an email from a source saying the family are still fighting over Jackson's estate: 'The family was determined to get a will that meets their demands. They have millions at stake here. They can profit hugely from this.' "

I wouldn't waste one second believing anything Ian Haleperin writes and never have.

Take a look at this article from Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/12/22/biographer-claims-michael-jackson-seriously-ill/

It's just one example in a myriad of others. He is also a continual contributor to The Sun, which I think most if not all of us can agree is the bottom feeder of tabloids.

[Tokyo Rose]

I disagree. If a parent has given up their rights to a child, then they have made their call then. Crikey, if this was the case the world of adopted kids would become a minefield. Blood parents maybe changing their minds years later; what a mess that would be. No different to here. The courts, if they are fair, will see that.

This has nothing do do with adoption. MJ never adopted those children.
jmo

[aproudmom]

I believe her contract to give up her children to MJ is now void since he is dead, no?

She signed her rights over a stupid Judge overturned it and MJ should have had a better lawyer or maybe he felt the millions he had gave her was enough...she went after them during the trial she did not want his mother having them if he went away..then when he moved she did not like him having the kids around Islam or extremist IIRC..lol..so she went for MO money..and then she was dead broke and had so much debt so he gave her 250.000 more how much does it take to get this womb to go away..FGS those kids do not know her she did not want them it is all on tape and any judge with half a brain will see what she is after $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ she calls her dogs and horses her babys:rolleyes: JMO :smile:

[Tokyo Rose]

She was married to their father. That makes her more than just a surrogate.

imo...of course.


She was hired as a surrogate. Who knows why they married? It does cement her rights to the children though. jmo

[Cardinal]

I wouldn't waste one second believing anything Ian Haleperin writes and never have.

Take a look at this article from Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/12/22/biographer-claims-michael-jackson-seriously-ill/

It's just one example in a myriad of others. He is also a continual contributor to The Sun, which I think most if not all of us can agree is the bottom feeder of tabloids.

So maybe it's all bogus, I don't know. But parts of it ring true, I can't say why. I think the autopsy report will either confirm or refute a lot of it.

[Mamie]

Okay, so I went to look up something on Debbie Rowe and clicked on the TMZ site. On June 27th, they had her being the bio mom of the two oldest kids. On June 30th, they had neither she or MJ being the bio parents of the two oldest kids and MJ not being the bio dad of the youngest. That particular story I clicked on the latest date was June 30th, I think.

Just so we can keep the record straight and because TMZ seems to be ahead of everyone else for breaking stories, they have since corrected themselves and now agree that DR is the bio mom of the oldest two, or no?

I do apologize for the rehashing of this.:blushing:

[Cardinal]

:wub: aww wasn't shooting the messenger.:tongueside:

LOL Thanks for clarifying.

[Tokyo Rose]

She signed her rights over a stupid Judge overturned it and MJ should have had a better lawyer or maybe he felt the millions he had gave her was enough...she went after them during the trial she did not want his mother having them if he went away..then when he moved she did not like him having the kids around Islam or extremist IIRC..lol..so she went for MO money..and then she was dead broke and had so much debt so he gave her 250.000 more how much does it take to get this womb to go away..FGS those kids do not know her she did not want them it is all on tape and any judge with half a brain will see what she is after $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ she calls her dogs and horses her babys:rolleyes: JMO :smile:

She's still the biological mother. She is the only one with biological connections to them other than the sperm donor. I feel she should be allowed visitation rights to get to know them. I call my dogs my babies too.

jmo

[incidentally]

So maybe it's all bogus, I don't know. But parts of it ring true, I can't say why. I think the autopsy report will either confirm or refute a lot of it.

I believe parts of it will ring true because small facts already known, into and a lot of fiction.

Before I joined here, I was on a few other message boards that wouldn't even allow links to any of his assertions or articles. That has to be really bad since these were gossip sites with very little moderating.

[Tokyo Rose]

You don't adopt children who are already established to be legally your own. I don't understand Nancy Grace, who is somewhat of a lawyer, making these kind of comments. There is no legal basis whatsoever.

Yes, people do adopt children under those circumstances. Especially if they are not biologically related to them and MJ wasn't. jmo

[incidentally]

Isn't how most of the stuff is on MJ. They put in a few well-known facts and then lie or spin the rest of it. :)

Ack! I just edited my post. Yes, you are accurate but I believe he is the worst of the worst.

I added this to my earlier post:

Before I joined here, I was on a few other message boards that wouldn't even allow links to any of his assertions or articles. That has to be really bad since these were gossip sites with very little moderating.

[Mamie]

the people who posts comments are scary. CW needs to have a talk with Harvey.:scared: for Harvey, lol

Okay you lost me with this reponse.

[Cardinal]

I believe parts of it will ring true because small facts already known, into and a lot of fiction.

Before I joined here, I was on a few other message boards that wouldn't even allow links to any of his assertions or articles. That has to be really bad since these were gossip sites with very little moderating.

That adds some perspective to it! But Halperin aside, I really think there's a lot we don't know yet.

[Mamie]

Search (in yesterday's thread) for "Rumors" -- I posted a list yesterday of the stories that are not true

And thank you again, Athena, for your great info!!!!

[Tokyo Rose]

If K Jackson dies, Diana would still have to petition the court. You cannot give away children.

That makes sense. Do you think KJ should make out a will really fast too as where they should go if she dies?

[aproudmom]

This has nothing do do with adoption. MJ never adopted those children.
jmo

IMO He had no idea he needed to adopt his own kids he was way to trusting as he was alot of times I think with that little part about her not being named in the will shows me he never knew she could get those kids his name is on those BC and he raised all 3 of those children and he put his wishes down in his will if DR had a heart she would jump on her high horsey and ride away and leave them kids alone they do not know her they will be split up I have no compassion for someone who says the things she has about her gifts from god she does not want them to call her mommy she does not deserve that title..some people were not to be parents...ALL HER WORDS..NOT MINE

But I will let a Judge make that decision and pray it is the right one for those kids..I can not help but get upset I am a mother I would die for my kids this women makes me sick DR..I am done you all can go on I do not think she deserves them or any money but mark my words if she comes out of court well her lawyer smiling it means she got a few million out of them..JMO:mad:

[Tokyo Rose]

:confused: MJ was the ONLY parent the children knew. They only know their Jacksons side of the family. DR only got her parental rights back because she could not terminate them and then she again settled for money. The children don't know her AT ALL and they are 13, 11 and soon to be 8 years old. Blood doesn't make one a parent -- the caring, nuturing, support and love is what makes a parent. :rolleyes:

I think the children should be allowed to know their biological mother.
There should be visitation rights for Debbie Rowe. :rolleyes:

[Dunlurken]

You don't adopt children who are already established to be legally your own. I don't understand Nancy Grace, who is somewhat of a lawyer, making these kind of comments. There is no legal basis whatsoever.

If the children aren't biologically yours, you have to adopt them. Back up thread, someone from California said that's not the case, so I don't know. LOL. Maybe it varies by State? :confused:

[Tokyo Rose]

Can you cite one single case in the State of California, where a legally established father was required to adopt his children?

No. LOL Should I be able to?

[Dunlurken]

Can you cite one single case in the State of California, where a legally established father was required to adopt his children?

Your post makes no sense. Sorry. Just because you marry someone, doesn't make those children yours. Any California family attornies on board? LOL.

[aproudmom]

On E there is True Hollywood story 2003 doc/bio about MJ my darn satellite is still out so all I can see is the guide no picture:cursing:

[Tokyo Rose]

Children are not property, and can't be distributed under the terms of a will.

The court will certainly take into consideration what the decedent wishes.

[Dunlurken]

Children are not property, and can't be distributed under the terms of a will.

Biologically, they belong to Debbie Rowe. Remember, initially she gave up her parental rights, but they were reinstated. MJ has no legal/biological/ethical/moral claim to those kids. He was nothing more than a caregiver. JMO.

[Eagleeye]

Irate Michael fans who want the best for the kids, can send ALOUD message, They should be under Grace's watchful eye/ care. They trust her, IMO

Every blogger in this country can scream from the top of the Empire State Building and it will make not wit of difference as to where these children will go. It is not fans who decide these matters, it is the Courts. Top that off with the fact that Third Party Custody is one of the hardest things to accomplish, especially in California.

[Dunlurken]

On E there is True Hollywood story 2003 doc/bio about MJ my darn satellite is still out so all I can see is the guide no picture:cursing:

Ghee. Thanks for the tease. LOL. :smile:

[Cardinal]

Biologically, they belong to Debbie Rowe. Remember, initially she gave up her parental rights, but they were reinstated. MJ has no legal/biological/ethical/moral claim to those kids. He was nothing more than a caregiver. JMO.

Absent a DNA test, I'm not convinced MJ is not the biological father of those children.

[incidentally]

That adds some perspective to it! But Halperin aside, I really think there's a lot we don't know yet.



bold mine.

I agree and I believe there is a lot we will never know.

[Cardinal]

bold mine.

I agree and I believe there is a lot we will never know.

Or should know, honestly. I understand that the trade-off for celebrity is a loss of privacy, but some things should just remain private.

[aproudmom]

Your post makes no sense. Sorry. Just because you marry someone, doesn't make those children yours. Any California family attornies on board? LOL.

now wait if you sign the BC you are saying that is your child even if it is not actually your biological child..or it is that way here

But no if you marry it does not make you the kids parent unless you adopt them

[Dunlurken]

Absent a DNA test, I'm not convinced MJ is not the biological father of those children.

I would be willing to bet he's not the biological father. See, that's where he made his mistake when drawing up his will. He would let NO ONE, NO ONE, know he wasn't the bio dad.

So in his will he claims "my children".... well, Michael, they aren't your children. You are an icon and a legend, but you screwed up on this one. JMO.

How many times have we seen children taken out of wonderful homes because the parents aren't biologically related to the parents? Happens all the time, unfortunately.

I don't think Michael "planned" to die before the children reached the age of majority..... 18.

[airportwoman]

That's some crazy stuff. People have been confused because it goes by two names, one generic and the regular name. Diprivan and the Pro thing.

If he had access to something that was putting him in a coma, no wonder he is dead. RIP Michael.

I'm quoting post #5, FTR.

Did anyone see Dr. Drew on Larry King last night? He was totally shocked about this because he had never personally seen a case of Diprivan abuse, although he had heard of it, and I hadn't either.

I'm a hospital pharmacist. We send tons of this stuff to the OR, and occasionally a patient in the ICU will be on it to initiate sedation for a ventilator. It's a terrific agent because it is so short acting; if the patient needs to be awakened, they shut off the drip and if the patient is otherwise conscious, they will wake up in a matter of a few minutes. It's very dangerous to use for more than a couple of days because it is oil based and can precipitate liver failure. It is an emulsion, and looks a lot like milk.

The generic name is propofol and the brand name is Diprivan.

It's also used rarely in the emergency room, and does not relieve pain.

[airportwoman]

I would be willing to bet he's not the biological father. See, that's where he made his mistake when drawing up his will. He would let NO ONE, NO ONE, know he wasn't the bio dad.

So in his will he claims "my children".... well, Michael, they aren't your children. You are an icon and a legend, but you screwed up on this one. JMO.

How many times have we seen children taken out of wonderful homes because the parents aren't biologically related to the parents? Happens all the time, unfortunately.

I don't think Michael "planned" to die before the children reached the age of majority..... 18.

Even with the kids being veiled or covered with blankets, it's perfectly obvious that he is not their biological father. They are white children. Changing your skin color won't change your DNA.

[incidentally]

Or should know, honestly. I understand that the trade-off for celebrity is a loss of privacy, but some things should just remain private.

Agreed. :smile:

[Dunlurken]

now wait if you sign the BC you are saying that is your child even if it is not actually your biological child..or it is that way here

But no if you marry it does not make you the kids parent unless you adopt them

Correct. That's why we are in this mess. He never adopted Debbie's kids, that I know of. We shall see. Would tarnish his image to admit they weren't biologically his.

wonder where Blanket's mom and dad are? They will be coming out of the woodwork soon, unless they are deceased. JMO.

[aproudmom]

Or should know, honestly. I understand that the trade-off for celebrity is a loss of privacy, but some things should just remain private.

in all honesty I think they do need some sort of protection such as all this talk over drugs and kids..mainly for those kids..I would rather be poor than live with cameras and freaks chasing me down with my kids it is down right dangerous..IMO

[Dunlurken]

I'm quoting post #5, FTR.

Did anyone see Dr. Drew on Larry King last night? He was totally shocked about this because he had never personally seen a case of Diprivan abuse, although he had heard of it, and I hadn't either.

I'm a hospital pharmacist. We send tons of this stuff to the OR, and occasionally a patient in the ICU will be on it to initiate sedation for a ventilator. It's a terrific agent because it is so short acting; if the patient needs to be awakened, they shut off the drip and if the patient is otherwise conscious, they will wake up in a matter of a few minutes. It's very dangerous to use for more than a couple of days because it is oil based and can precipitate liver failure. It is an emulsion, and looks a lot like milk.

The generic name is propofol and the brand name is Diprivan.

It's also used rarely in the emergency room, and does not relieve pain.
I think I've had it before while being put to sleep for surgery. You come awake quickly, unless they change the IV drip to bring you out slowly.

[who_is_it]

I couldn't agree more about Grace. She has been a constant in their lives & I believe she really cares about them :)

Usually I don't believe in rumors which come from an unreliable source. Nevertheless I think it could be true what the bodyguard said: that MJ had a longterm girlfriend... and this maybe was Grace.

[VC2]

I disagree. If a parent has given up their rights to a child, then they have made their call then. Crikey, if this was the case the world of adopted kids would become a minefield. Blood parents maybe changing their minds years later; what a mess that would be. No different to here. The courts, if they are fair, will see that.

I was listening to a california attorney on hln yesterday, not one of the celeb atty's who are on just to hear their mouths flap but a real one :D

She said the way the law is written, Debbie Row is the presumptive guardian as the mother. So what happens is Commissioner Belkstaff (sp)-its not a judge but effectively acts as one - starts with that, then looks at reasons why she should not be the guardian and someone else should be.

One thing i will say, the fact she is hemming and hawing about wanting custody imo will work against her. Especially if in the negotiations any money is mentioned, KJ's attorney's can use that as evidence.

IMO

[aproudmom]

I thought the song They don't care about us was a new one..its not uh all kinds of songs to listen to..
http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.artistalbums&artistid=1592921&albumid=8084746

[VC2]

Correct. That's why we are in this mess. He never adopted Debbie's kids, that I know of. We shall see. Would tarnish his image to admit they weren't biologically his.

wonder where Blanket's mom and dad are? They will be coming out of the woodwork soon, unless they are deceased. JMO.

Dunlurken he did not NEED to adopt them. He was presumptively and legally the father. I posted back page 2 or 3 the exact case law for you that says so. They were born during their marriage, and there was no challenge to the paternity for a period of 2 years. IF Debbie had gotten custody when they divorced he would have had to pay child support DNA or not.

IMO

[Cardinal]

I would be willing to bet he's not the biological father. See, that's where he made his mistake when drawing up his will. He would let NO ONE, NO ONE, know he wasn't the bio dad.

So in his will he claims "my children".... well, Michael, they aren't your children. You are an icon and a legend, but you screwed up on this one. JMO.

How many times have we seen children taken out of wonderful homes because the parents aren't biologically related to the parents? Happens all the time, unfortunately.

I don't think Michael "planned" to die before the children reached the age of majority..... 18.

No, his attorney didn't screw up drafting the will. Unless MJ was intestate, the biology of his children is irrelevant. His estate pours over into a family trust, and will be administered as MJ specified by the trustee regardless of the children's paternity. Further, the will goes on to say that if for any reason the gift to the trust is invalid, he leaves his estate to the trustee(s) to administer according to the terms of the trust. Good attorney, imo.

[Dunlurken]

His long term girlfriend was Dianna Ross.

Boy, that was a strange bequeath wasn't it. Caught me out of the blue. Diana Ross? Wow. Although she has raised 5 of her own children and done a wonderful job. JMO.

[who_is_it]

I would have 2 questions:

At the beginning TMZ reported MJ got a demerol shot. -- Is demerol like diprivan a narcotic drug / has a sedative effect?

I know how Murray's lawyer explained the delay of the 911 call (didn't know address, no phone).... but how could the media and / or authorities know THAT there was a delay of 30 minutes? (= How did it come out that there was a delay?)

[Tokyo Rose]

It all boils down to DR being their biological mother which will carry great weight in court. jmo

[Dunlurken]

No, his attorney didn't screw up drafting the will. Unless MJ was intestate, the biology of his children is irrelevant. His estate pours over into a family trust, and will be administered as MJ specified by the trustee regardless of the children's paternity. Further, the will goes on to say that if for any reason the gift to the trust is invalid, he leaves his estate to the trustee(s) to administer according to the terms of the trust. Good attorney, imo.

But the children aren't his trustees. His mom is. :confused:

[VC2]

Presumed Father

If any of the following are true, a man is presumed to be the father of a child, unless he or the mother proves otherwise to a court:

* he was married to the mother when the child was conceived or born, although some states do not consider a man to be a presumed father if the couple has separated he attempted to marry the mother (even if the marriage was not valid) and the child was conceived or born during the "marriage."
* he married the mother after the birth and agreed either to have his name on the birth certificate or to support the child, or he welcomed the child into his home and openly held the child out as his own.

In some states, the presumption of paternity is considered conclusive, which means it cannot be disproven, even with contradictory blood tests. In Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U.S. 110 (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court upheld California's presumed father statute as a rational method of protecting the integrity of the family against challenges based on the due process rights of the father and the child. A presumed father must pay child support.

http://www.cadivorceonline.com/calpages/paterntifaq.asp

[incidentally]

Raleigh, NC is having a memorial service which will simulcast the service in CA.

http://www.wral.com/entertainment/story/5503570/

$5.00 per person admission fee.

[Cardinal]

Even with the kids being veiled or covered with blankets, it's perfectly obvious that he is not their biological father. They are white children. Changing your skin color won't change your DNA.

Excuse me, but I have a bi-racial step-granddaughter whose mother is a blond Caucasian and whose father is a medium-skinned African American. She is as light-skinned as MJ's children.

[who_is_it]

Boy, that was a strange bequeath wasn't it. Caught me out of the blue. Diana Ross? Wow. Although she has raised 5 of her own children and done a wonderful job. JMO.

Did Diana Ross make a statement since the will was published? I always believed Michael had a crush on Diana Ross.

[Dunlurken]

It all boils down to DR being their biological mother which will carry great weight in court. jmoYou got it! MJ had no right to those kids.

And, I don't care to read the California Children's code. His lawyer assumed, or Michael told him, he was the bio dad. And he is not. IMO.

[aproudmom]

I was listening to a california attorney on hln yesterday, not one of the celeb atty's who are on just to hear their mouths flap but a real one :D

She said the way the law is written, Debbie Row is the presumptive guardian as the mother. So what happens is Commissioner Belkstaff (sp)-its not a judge but effectively acts as one - starts with that, then looks at reasons why she should not be the guardian and someone else should be.

One thing i will say, the fact she is hemming and hawing about wanting custody imo will work against her. Especially if in the negotiations any money is mentioned, KJ's attorney's can use that as evidence.

IMO

Thanks I am sure the kids will not be with her then..and if they want to try some sort of visitation it should be when the kids are ready and not some big move to the vessels home..heck never know by the time it is over the kids may be 18

[who_is_it]

His long term girlfriend was Dianna Ross.

???
Who did say so? I don't believe this...

[Tokyo Rose]

His long term girlfriend was Dianna Ross.

He never had any girlfriends. I think we all know why. jmo

Why wouldn't he use his own sperm to create his children? Strange.

[incidentally]

I would have 2 questions:

At the beginning TMZ reported MJ got a demerol shot. -- Is demerol like diprivan a narcotic drug / has a sedative effect?

I know how Murray's lawyer explained the delay of the 911 call (didn't know address, no phone).... but how could the media and / or authorities know THAT there was a delay of 30 minutes? (= How did it come out that there was a delay?)

Diprivan is not a narcotic. Demerol is. There is a post of mine on the first MJ thread that explains my experience with Demerol and Vicodin/hydrocodone.

[Dunlurken]

Excuse me, but I have a bi-racial step-granddaughter whose mother is a blond Caucasian and whose father is a medium-skinned African American. She is as light-skinned as MJ's children.

The proper term these days is "mixed". I have a mixed grandchild also. Dark hair with red highlights. Tans quickly. On the other hand, we have friends with mixed children. However, the father is only 1/2 black and the mother totally white. Lineage goes a long way on determining what children look like. JMO.

[TunaMelt]

Excuse me, but I have a bi-racial step-granddaughter whose mother is a blond Caucasian and whose father is a medium-skinned African American. She is as light-skinned as MJ's children.

Exceptional.

[*Serenity*]

I think I've had it before while being put to sleep for surgery. You come awake quickly, unless they change the IV drip to bring you out slowly.

If you were out of it and asleep-- how do you know how quick you came out of it?

[Cardinal]

But the children aren't his trustees. His mom is. :confused:

No, he named his mother the guardian of the person and the estate for his children. According to his will, he was both the Trustor (grantor) and Trustee of the family trust at the time it was created. Not unusual. The trust document will have a provision for a Successor Trustee as his death, but we don't know who that is.

[Dunlurken]

<duncecap dunnie:wub:> I learned from a tacky but wise poster on TMZ you can't bleach sperm white. Does this settle this?:tonguewag:

They love him, period.

I'm agreeing with you. Just because they love him doesn't give anyone any legal rights to those kids. LOL.

[Mamie]

Raleigh, NC is having a memorial service which will simulcast the service in CA.

http://www.wral.com/entertainment/story/5503570/

$5.00 per person admission fee.

Why would they do this------and charge for it, yet????

[TunaMelt]

He never had any girlfriends. I think we all know why. jmo

Why wouldn't he use his own sperm to create his children? Strange.

I think he thought the whole idea of "having" children was odd and distasteful. I don't think he wanted anything to do with it one way or another.

He saw children (males) as sexual objects, not as off-spring.

And he thought of himself as a child too, so how can a child like him have a child, he'd think.

[Cardinal]

Exceptional.

Yes, she is. :) Extremely bright, loving......but enough of that!

And Dunny, I will use the term I choose, if that's okay with you.

[Tokyo Rose]

7613. (a) If, under the supervision of a licensed physician and
surgeon and with the consent of her husband, a wife is inseminated
artificially with semen donated by a man not her husband, the husband
is treated in law as if he were the natural father of a child
thereby conceived. The husband's consent must be in writing and
signed by him and his wife. The physician and surgeon shall certify
their signatures and the date of the insemination, and retain the
husband's consent as part of the medical record, where it shall be
kept confidential and in a sealed file. However, the physician and
surgeon's failure to do so does not affect the father and child
relationship. All papers and records pertaining to the insemination,
whether part of the permanent record of a court or of a file held by
the supervising physician and surgeon or elsewhere, are subject to
inspection only upon an order of the court for good cause shown.
(b) The donor of semen provided to a licensed physician and
surgeon or to a licensed sperm bank for use in artificial
insemination or in vitro fertilization of a woman other than the
donor's wife is treated in law as if he were not the natural father
of a child thereby conceived.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=07001-08000&file=7610-7614

And if this never happened than what?

"The husband's consent must be in writing and
signed by him and his wife."

[*Serenity*]

You got it! MJ had no right to those kids.

And, I don't care to read the California Children's code. His lawyer assumed, or Michael told him, he was the bio dad. And he is not. IMO.

If you don't care to read any California codes or laws how you can make proper decisions/opinions? If you do not have every legal document and all of MJ's trust documents, how do you happen to know the things you keep posting?

[Mamie]

Sorry, I drifted, LOL. TMZ has a comment section, I have posted on it. The people are scary, very nasty and they could live near me, ack..........:tonguewag:

Okay, got it now. Your reference to CW really threw me! LOL

[Cardinal]

7613. (a) If, under the supervision of a licensed physician and
surgeon and with the consent of her husband, a wife is inseminated
artificially with semen donated by a man not her husband, the husband
is treated in law as if he were the natural father of a child
thereby conceived. The husband's consent must be in writing and
signed by him and his wife. The physician and surgeon shall certify
their signatures and the date of the insemination, and retain the
husband's consent as part of the medical record, where it shall be
kept confidential and in a sealed file. However, the physician and
surgeon's failure to do so does not affect the father and child
relationship. All papers and records pertaining to the insemination,
whether part of the permanent record of a court or of a file held by
the supervising physician and surgeon or elsewhere, are subject to
inspection only upon an order of the court for good cause shown.
(b) The donor of semen provided to a licensed physician and
surgeon or to a licensed sperm bank for use in artificial
insemination or in vitro fertilization of a woman other than the
donor's wife is treated in law as if he were not the natural father
of a child thereby conceived.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=07001-08000&file=7610-7614

Interesting, thank you. It appears that law caught up with medicine, in this case.

[FrankieBones1]

bump! Anyone remember that term? :biggrin:

It's a dance move, right? :0)

Looks like the service will be held at the Staples Centre. Any idea of the cost of a ticket?

My next question would be if you live in the area would you go or would you stay home?

[kellabeck]

Diprivan is not a narcotic. Demerol is. There is a post of mine on the first MJ thread that explains my experience with Demerol and Vicodin/hydrocodone.

Dr Drew Pinsky told Anderson Cooper last night that Diprivan can be addictive.

[Dunlurken]

7613. (a) If, under the supervision of a licensed physician and
surgeon and with the consent of her husband, a wife is inseminated
artificially with semen donated by a man not her husband, the husband
is treated in law as if he were the natural father of a child
thereby conceived. The husband's consent must be in writing and
signed by him and his wife. The physician and surgeon shall certify
their signatures and the date of the insemination, and retain the
husband's consent as part of the medical record, where it shall be
kept confidential and in a sealed file. However, the physician and
surgeon's failure to do so does not affect the father and child
relationship. All papers and records pertaining to the insemination,
whether part of the permanent record of a court or of a file held by
the supervising physician and surgeon or elsewhere, are subject to
inspection only upon an order of the court for good cause shown.
(b) The donor of semen provided to a licensed physician and
surgeon or to a licensed sperm bank for use in artificial
insemination or in vitro fertilization of a woman other than the
donor's wife is treated in law as if he were not the natural father
of a child thereby conceived.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=07001-08000&file=7610-7614Thank you. Does it go on to say anything about the death of the "father" and whether the mother, whose eggs were inseminated, has rights?

Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg? JMO.

[Mamie]

Search (in yesterday's thread) for "Rumors" -- I posted a list yesterday of the stories that are not true

And good job of it you did, too! I wonder if NG will take what's his name to task about it the next time she has him on her show, or has she already and I missed that too?:rolleyes:

[aproudmom]

People Special Edition is out..
The Talent and the Tragedy of MJ
my kiddo just brought it in for me aw how sweet:wub:

[incidentally]

Why would they do this------and charge for it, yet????

I can only guess there was a high demand for it. The $5.00 won't even cover the expenses of holding such an event. North Carolina is also suffering terribly from the economy.

[Dunlurken]

It's a dance move, right? :0)

Looks like the service will be held at the Staples Centre. Any idea of the cost of a ticket?

My next question would be if you live in the area would you go or would you stay home?

Hey Frankie. LTNS. Sure do miss a good trial. :seeya:

I would stay home and watch it on TV. Just like I will do for the fireworks tonight. I can see the Pentagon from my street. Hate the traffic, etc. Been there done that. LOL.

[kellabeck]

Absent a DNA test, I'm not convinced MJ is not the biological father of those children.

That's astonishing considering how they look.

[who_is_it]

Diprivan is not a narcotic. Demerol is. There is a post of mine on the first MJ thread that explains my experience with Demerol and Vicodin/hydrocodone.

Now again about Diprivan: I thought it's an anesthesia drug. So, don’t you call it "narcotic" for what the poster airportwoman explained: "if the patient needs to be awakened, they shut off the drip and if the patient is otherwise conscious, they will wake up in a matter of a few minutes."


I thought "narcotic" and "anesthesizing" are synonyms but you're reply makes me conclude that "narcotic" describes a longer lasting effect... - Is this correct?

[aubrey04]

I have spent a lot of time reading about MJ. I guess I just didn't pay much attention to him during all the trials and tribulations.. even though he was a huge influence on my youth - being born in the mid-70s.

The slimy people who are involved in his affairs just leaves me so uneasy. Anthony Pellicano, Geragos and his goons, the Nation of Islam and on and on and on.. Then the Chandler family and the Arvizo's.. and Debbie Rowe.. (and tons more)..

Plus Jackson's own family with all it's "issues". The entire thing makes me want to take a shower - I feel filthy just reading the stuff I have been reading through. I don't see any heroes here.

I hope that those children grow up in a caring environment - away from the money grubbing leeches and loonies.. but somehow, I don't see how that will happen.

imo

[Mamie]

It's a dance move, right? :0)

Looks like the service will be held at the Staples Centre. Any idea of the cost of a ticket?

My next question would be if you live in the area would you go or would you stay home?

It's by lottery only and free. I think 11,500 tickets were available and I think I read here yesterday that minutes after people started getting notified that some were on sale on eBay??? Which someone here did state would probably happen, and apparently............

[Cardinal]

That is assuming (which I don't) that his sperm wasn't used.

Here's some more of the code:


7611. A man is presumed to be the natural father of a child if he
meets the conditions provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
7540) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 7570) of Part 2 or in any
of the following subdivisions:
(a) He and the child's natural mother are or have been married to
each other and the child is born during the marriage, or within 300
days after the marriage is terminated by death, annulment,
declaration of invalidity, or divorce, or after a judgment of
separation is entered by a court.
(b) Before the child's birth, he and the child's natural mother
have attempted to marry each other by a marriage solemnized in
apparent compliance with law, although the attempted marriage is or
could be declared invalid, and either of the following is true:
(1) If the attempted marriage could be declared invalid only by a
court, the child is born during the attempted marriage, or within 300
days after its termination by death, annulment, declaration of
invalidity, or divorce.
(2) If the attempted marriage is invalid without a court order,
the child is born within 300 days after the termination of
cohabitation.
(c) After the child's birth, he and the child's natural mother
have married, or attempted to marry, each other by a marriage
solemnized in apparent compliance with law, although the attempted
marriage is or could be declared invalid, and either of the following
is true:
(1) With his consent, he is named as the child's father on the
child's birth certificate.
(2) He is obligated to support the child under a written voluntary
promise or by court order.
(d) He receives the child into his home and openly holds out the
child as his natural child.

Well, I guess that answers the question someone asked earlier about the reason JM married DR.

[Tokyo Rose]

That is assuming (which I don't) that his sperm wasn't used.

Here's some more of the code:


7611. A man is presumed to be the natural father of a child if he
meets the conditions provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
7540) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 7570) of Part 2 or in any
of the following subdivisions:
(a) He and the child's natural mother are or have been married to
each other and the child is born during the marriage, or within 300
days after the marriage is terminated by death, annulment,
declaration of invalidity, or divorce, or after a judgment of
separation is entered by a court.
(b) Before the child's birth, he and the child's natural mother
have attempted to marry each other by a marriage solemnized in
apparent compliance with law, although the attempted marriage is or
could be declared invalid, and either of the following is true:
(1) If the attempted marriage could be declared invalid only by a
court, the child is born during the attempted marriage, or within 300
days after its termination by death, annulment, declaration of
invalidity, or divorce.
(2) If the attempted marriage is invalid without a court order,
the child is born within 300 days after the termination of
cohabitation.
(c) After the child's birth, he and the child's natural mother
have married, or attempted to marry, each other by a marriage
solemnized in apparent compliance with law, although the attempted
marriage is or could be declared invalid, and either of the following
is true:
(1) With his consent, he is named as the child's father on the
child's birth certificate.
(2) He is obligated to support the child under a written voluntary
promise or by court order.
(d) He receives the child into his home and openly holds out the
child as his natural child.

And if this marriage was never consummated, than what?

[Cardinal]

That's astonishing considering how they look.

You must have missed my post about my granddaughter.

[incidentally]

Dr Drew Pinsky told Anderson Cooper last night that Diprivan can be addictive.

Yes, I've heard the same however that was not what was being addressed in my post or the post I quoted.

Is there a reason you bring this up?

[Dunlurken]

And if this marriage was never consummated, than what?

WHOA! Back up. LOL. So many question, so little time. :huh:

[Mamie]

I can only guess there was a high demand for it. The $5.00 won't even cover the expenses of holding such an event. North Carolina is also suffering terribly from the economy.

Uh-huh. They want to see how much money they can make off their own people. If the state is suffering so from the economy, what do they think the residents of that state are doing??? And I don't mean to take it out on you, it just upsets me when I see someone trying to blatantly take advantage of people. JMO

[Tokyo Rose]

They look like beautiful children who were much loved and cared for by their Father.

They looked beautiful even with their heads always covered.:rolleyes:

[Dunlurken]

They didn't do the bump and grind, dunnie:glare:

That's what we think. Wonder what Debbie will say. :huh: Wonder what Lisa Marie says. JMO.

[aproudmom]

Yes, people do adopt children under those circumstances. Especially if they are not biologically related to them and MJ wasn't. jmo

if you have a child prior to marriage then you have got to get a special paper from the courthouse here allowing the male/father to have the name on the BC they are saying that is my child blood or not they do not ask for DNA...BUT if you have a child and you get married and your husband wants to be added to the BC they have to adopt the child I do know all this because my ex was going to adopt my oldest son whom was 3 when we got together 4 when we got married...but we never did it he still sees him all is good..my son is 19 now..but we did have a son during our marriage and both our names are listed..as far as I know the only problem with MJ is if the kids were not his bio kids did she always say they were not his? if this was Joe down the road that DR would never get those kids being out of their life they would go to the family of the father..its all about the Star status here and money..but sure it is not the same every where we shall see what happens and just hope the best for the kids whatever that may be

[incidentally]

Link? please. How can it be additive if no one can get it, or knows about it?

Here is a transcript to the interview, Snazzy.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/03/acd.01.html

[who_is_it]

I have spent a lot of time reading about MJ. I guess I just didn't pay much attention to him during all the trials and tribulations.. even though he was a huge influence on my youth - being born in the mid-70s.

The slimy people who are involved in his affairs just leaves me so uneasy. Anthony Pellicano, Geragos and his goons, the Nation of Islam and on and on and on.. Then the Chandler family and the Arvizo's.. and Debbie Rowe.. (and tons more)..

Plus Jackson's own family with all it's "issues". The entire thing makes me want to take a shower - I feel filthy just reading the stuff I have been reading through. I don't see any heroes here.

I hope that those children grow up in a caring environment - away from the money grubbing leeches and loonies.. but somehow, I don't see how that will happen.

imo

Imo the people he was surrounded in his last months were nice, dignified people: The AEG man Phillips, his old manager DiLeo, the people who were working together with him on the shows.

I still feel hate for some people who ruined his life, for example Bashir, Feldman and the AV family. Their vile motivation is beyond my imagination; for me it's incomprehensible how somebody could be capable of causing so much pain in someone else's life... -- for money.

[Cardinal]

They looked beautiful even with their heads always covered.:rolleyes:

Yes, they do. And they've lost their father, and are in (another) strange place, and I pray the court genuinely has their best interests at heart.

[incidentally]

Uh-huh. They want to see how much money they can make off their own people. If the state is suffering so from the economy, what do they think the residents of that state are doing??? And I don't mean to take it out on you, it just upsets me when I see someone trying to blatantly take advantage of people. JMO

Oh. Okay.

[Eagleeye]

Now again about Diprivan: I thought it's an anesthesia drug. So, don’t you call it "narcotic" for what the poster airportwoman explained: "if the patient needs to be awakened, they shut off the drip and if the patient is otherwise conscious, they will wake up in a matter of a few minutes."


I thought "narcotic" and "anesthesizing" are synonyms but you're reply makes me conclude that "narcotic" describes a longer lasting effect... - Is this correct?


Who,

Demerol is one of the stronger of the narcotic pain relieving drugs. Diprivan is use to start and maintain anesthesia for the purposes of keeping one asleep as long as the operation or proceedure takes. Then it is backed off till the patient wakes up.

It depends on the size and weight of a person and the dosage how long Demerol lasts in your sytem. From expierience 100mg of Demerol relieved the pain of my Kidney Stones for a period of approximately 2 two three hours. I weigh 200 lbs. and am male.

[TunaMelt]

[QUOTE=TunaMelt;13253293]I think he thought the whole idea of "having" children was odd and distasteful. I don't think he wanted anything to do with it one way or another.

He saw children (males) as sexual objects, not as off-spring.
snipped
QUOTE]


Should we just go ahead and assume this is the way you feel about your children too, since you feel its okay to make these assumptions about MJ and his children?

Don't confuse me and Michael Jackson. And my children have nothing to do with this post or this message board.

Don't make assumptions about me. I didn't ask for them. On the other hand:

Jackson was a celebrity to some, and he invited attention. I'm giving it to him, albeit posthumously, by adding my commentary.

Watch where you step.
There is a line.

[Dunlurken]

Of course you don't really know that to be fact. I only hope those kids aren't destroyed by the rumor, innuendo and falsities, perpetrated by the well meaning public, as was their father.

I agree with you 100%. Now if you can get Debbie Rowe out of the picture, all will be fine. The kids know the Jackson family and that's where they belong, morally and ethically. Parental rights be dammed. However, when you are talking about an estate as large as his will be eventually, the cockroaches will come out of the woodwork. JMO. Think ahead.....:sad:

[who_is_it]

Who,

Demerol is one of the stronger of the narcotic pain relieving drugs. Diprivan is use to start and maintain anesthesia for the purposes of keeping one asleep as long as the operation or proceedure takes. Then it is backed off till the patient wakes up.

It depends on the size and weight and of a person and the dosage how long Demerol lasts. From expierience 100mg of Demerol relieved the pain of my Kidney Stones for a period of approximately 2 two three hours. I weigh 200 lbs. and am male.

Thank you for your explanation. How then could the use of Diprivan make sense for MJ? -- It just would make sense if he could have slept looooonnnng and no permanent control would have been necessary!?

[Mamie]

Blah.....Blah...... Blah.... Michael deserves this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEZUMkOWfF0


He donated.


Did you "zone out" again? I don't have a problem with anyone having anything for the fans of Michael Jackson, in his memory, whatever they want to do. I DO have a problem with them charging for it. Pay attention!

[aproudmom]

That's what we think. Wonder what Debbie will say. :huh: Wonder what Lisa Marie says. JMO.

I know what Donald Trump had to say:biggrin: he thinks ol Mikey and Lisa got it on all night long at his mansion when they came to stay..

[Dunlurken]

Thank you for your explanation. How then could the use of Diprivan make sense for MJ? -- It just would make sense if he could have slept looooonnnng and no permanent control would have been necessary!?
From what we hear, he travelled with a medical unit back in the 90s. Anasthesiologist, etc. That person would have access to Deprivan (or however you spell it.)

[Cardinal]

I know what Donald Trump had to say:biggrin: he thinks ol Mikey and Lisa got it on all night long at his mansion when they came to stay..

ROTFL Link please? Please? I'd really like to read that!

[TunaMelt]

Link? please. How can it be additive if no one can get it, or knows about it?

C'mon.
Think about it.

:rolleyes:

[incidentally]

Who,

Demerol is one of the stronger of the narcotic pain relieving drugs. Diprivan is use to start and maintain anesthesia for the purposes of keeping one asleep as long as the operation or proceedure takes. Then it is backed off till the patient wakes up.

It depends on the size and weight of a person and the dosage how long Demerol lasts in your sytem. From expierience 100mg of Demerol relieved the pain of my Kidney Stones for a period of approximately 2 two three hours. I weigh 200 lbs. and am male.

Yes and to be clear Diprivan has absolutely NO analgesic/pain relief properties. Just because someone is sedated doesn't mean they are not having pain. Demerol = pain control, Diprivan = sedation.

[FrankieBones1]

Frankie, I wouldn't get caught up in that circus for all the tea in China nor for all the meds in Michael's possession.

Hi, Vonna! :wub:
If I were living nearby I'd go. Just to be a part of that strange and weird history. I wouldn't pay more that twenty bucks for a ticket.

[TunaMelt]

They look like beautiful children who were much loved and cared for by their Father.

got a link?

just kidding.
:laugh:

[Mamie]

Who is "they" and who is "their own people"? Who is taking advantage of whom? I am a resident of California and feel that the crowd of people are there, and its probably best to use taxpayer money to attempt to keep control over such a crowd. I believe that is what they have done, to the best of their abilities.

If you go back to Page 6, Post #224, it should bring you up to speed. This has nothing to do with California, where I live also.

[Dunlurken]

Diprivan is not a controlled substance. Therefore, the DEA has no dog in this fight. Except for the other substances that will be found in his system, if any. JMO.

Poor Guy. RIP Michael. :rose:

[CinderL.]

OMG, I just realized my husband is flying into LAX on Tuesday morning from South America. I need to talk to him and tell him to catch the train to San Diego. No one is going to want to pick him up. :scared::scared:

[GentleBreeze]

I agree, GB, 100%. The Jackson family is much more than well equipped to care for all three of these children and they already know and love them. What more could anyone want? Let's hope the court sees it as we do. JMO

I believe that the Judge will, Mamie.

There is no logical reason for these children to be ripped away from the family they have known since birth, love and imo if the Judge asked them individually, I do believe they will tell him/her they want to be with their Grandmother. I think other than MJ and Grace she has been one of the most consistent figures in their lives.

imo

[Eagleeye]

Thank you for your explanation. How then could the use of Diprivan make sense for MJ? -- It just would make sense if he could have slept looooonnnng and no permanent control would have been necessary!?

That his apparently why he had an anesthesiologist and a medical doctor on his 24/7 staff. One to administer the drug and the other to monitor his blood oxygen, heart rate and blood pressure. Required in the administration of Diprivan that there be at least two to monitor the patient while they had him under. Othewise it would be extremely dangerous for only one provider to be present. They were most likely giving him oxygen at the same time.

[FrankieBones1]

ROTFL Link please? Please? I'd really like to read that!

I think it was Dateline's special last night. It was an old clip of Trump as his hair was much darker and the comb over was fuller. He said it with a straight face. He really believes they were consumating their marriage and rarely came up for air.

[TunaMelt]

Imo the people he was surrounded in his last months were nice, dignified people: The AEG man Phillips, his old manager DiLeo, the people who were working together with him on the shows.

I still feel hate for some people who ruined his life, for example Bashir, Feldman and the AV family. Their vile motivation is beyond my imagination; for me it's incomprehensible how somebody could be capable of causing so much pain in someone else's life... -- for money.

Michael Jackson ruined his own life.

He had two feet.

He could have turned and walked away.

He didn't.

His decision, his choice, his big mistake.

[AlohaRainbow]

for anyone who likes to watch the bloody and usually gorey trauma shows on discovery health channel, on one of the shows today (from sunnybrooke trauma center in canada), when they attempted to put a patient's dislocated hip back into her socket, the camera zoomed into them injecting a milky white substance from a syringe into the IV line to sedate her.... that would be propofol.

http://www.creaghbrown.co.uk/anae/photos/propofol_sml.jpg

[Dunlurken]

I believe that the Judge will, Mamie.

There is no logical reason for these children to be ripped away from the family they have known since birth, love and imo if the Judge asked them individually, I do believe they will tell him/her they want to be with their Grandmother. I think other than MJ and Grace she has been one of the most consistent figures in their lives.

imo
Let's pray you're right. Someone pay off Debbie Rowe again, PLEASE. JMO.

[FrankieBones1]

Hey Frankie. LTNS. Sure do miss a good trial. :seeya:

I would stay home and watch it on TV. Just like I will do for the fireworks tonight. I can see the Pentagon from my street. Hate the traffic, etc. Been there done that. LOL.

That's right! CNN will carry the service live on Tuesday afternoon (Eastern time). Seems like it was about 2pm Eastern. And I hear you about the live trials. Miss those badly!:wub:

[*Serenity*]

Hi, Vonna! :wub:
If I were living nearby I'd go. Just to be a part of that strange and weird history. I wouldn't pay more that twenty bucks for a ticket.

The tickets are free, and the winners drawn from the pool will know sometime tomorrow, then they have to go to Saples Center on Monday to receive their tickets and wristbands.

:)


More than 1.2 million people have registered online to receive their free tickets.


http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/49924267.html

[Dunlurken]

Michael Jackson ruined his own life.

He had two feet.

He could have turned and walked away.

He didn't.

His decision, his choice, his big mistake.
Have to disagree. He lived what he was taught, and actually had enough fortitude to let his own father "go". You know, that guy who used to beat him with a belt and take him to strip clubs when he was just a kid.

[Tokyo Rose]

Yes, they do. And they've lost their father, and are in (another) strange place, and I pray the court genuinely has their best interests at heart.


I do too. Nothing will ever take away what a talent their father was either.

[Mamie]

OMG, I just realized my husband is flying into LAX on Tuesday morning from South America. I need to talk to him and tell him to catch the train to San Diego. No one is going to want to pick him up. :scared::scared:

LMAO! The poor guy----but you're undoubtedly correct!:biggrin:

[FrankieBones1]

D. Rowe's rights re: parentage have no bearing on M. Jackson's rights. If what you believe were true (and I guarantee you its not) then those children would have no rights to any portion of his estate either. Michael Jackson was and will forever be the father of those children.

For sure, Arguendo. Even if he wasn't the bio dad (which is still in the air) he is still very much their dad. I wonder if the family will be able to keep them out of the spotlight like he did.

[aproudmom]

ROTFL Link please? Please? I'd really like to read that!

oh you I saw it on TV last night heck if I know which one I think ET or Inside edition or Showbiz heck I can not remember but he said I can not say if they did anything but it was real and they spent alot of time in the mansion he owned named after his ex wife not sure if he still owns it or not..Trumps ex..he said he liked women that was all he would say you know trump he just keeps ya hanging.:tonguewag:

[incidentally]

The tickets are free, no charge. $0.00

My understanding is AEG is picking up the tab for a lot of it.

[*Serenity*]

Michael was J.Branca (one of his lawyers) Best Man...

:) Good Photo...



Check out this photo of Michael Jackson with his lawyer, John Branca, at Branca's wedding in 1987. Jackson served as best man.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/04/michael-jackson-best-man/

[TunaMelt]

You stepped over that line with your assumptions, imo. Do you have any proof whatsoever that any of those three children were sexually violated or abused by their father, at any time? Being a celebrity should not be a factor to these kind of disgusting rumors.

I did not say Michael Jackson sexually abused his own children.


And in a perfect world a "celebrity" could enjoy celebrity status without being subjected to rumor.

Guess what?

This isn't a perfect world. They don't call it the entertainment industry for nothing. Rumor sells, celebrities have publicists to issue publicity about them because publicity sells celebrities. You might not like it, but guess what?

That's neither here nor there.

[FrankieBones1]

The tickets are free, and the winners drawn from the pool will know sometime tomorrow, then they have to go to Saples Center on Monday to receive their tickets and wristbands.

:)


More than 1.2 million people have registered online to receive their free tickets.


http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/49924267.html

Wow!
Jane Valez Mitchell is talking about it now. The intersection of the 10 and the 110 highway is normally bumper to bumper. What's it going to be like on Tuesday? If you don't have a ticket and wristband, you don't get into the area.

There will be no body at the the Staples Centre. It will be a service only.

[*Serenity*]

A spokesman for the Jackson family revealed that after only seven hours, over 500,000 people had entered the lottery for memorial tickets. Okay, time for some quick math: that means that roughly 71,500 people per hour have signed up. And if you extend that rate for the remaining 25 hours (especially since the lottery has been opened up to the entire world), you get a total number of around 2.3 million.




The bottom line: a 0.4% chance of getting a ticket. The good news? You're still more likely to get a ticket than get struck by lightning.


http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/04/jackson-ticket-odds-are-bad-very-bad/

[Tokyo Rose]

oh you I saw it on TV last night heck if I know which one I think ET or Inside edition or Showbiz heck I can not remember but he said I can not say if they did anything but it was real and they spent alot of time in the mansion he owned named after his ex wife not sure if he still owns it or not..Trumps ex..he said he liked women that was all he would say you know trump he just keeps ya hanging.:tonguewag:

Oh, I saw that interview with Trump a couple of times. Did you believe him?

[n/t]

Not sure if this was posted or not but I'm sure we've all seen the news footage of his last rehearsal video. It's been "leaked" to YouTube. I have to say there is only a minute of the video and the song as I'm sure his concerts would've been awesome! Such a sad and tragic end for such a talented man. What a shame.

Michael Jackson: The "leaked" final concert footage
http://www.kansascity.com/932/story/1303990.html?storylink=omni_popular

[Cardinal]

I think it was Dateline's special last night. It was an old clip of Trump as his hair was much darker and the comb over was fuller. He said it with a straight face. He really believes they were consumating their marriage and rarely came up for air.

Thanks I'll look for it. :D

Happy 4th everyone!!

[*Serenity*]

Wow!
Jane Valez Mitchell is talking about it now. The intersection of the 10 and the 110 highway is normally bumper to bumper. What's it going to be like on Tuesday? If you don't have a ticket and wristband, you don't get into the area.

There will be no body at the the Staples Centre. It will be a service only.

I have to make a run to LAX tomorrow to pick up my Grandson-- I have a 'gut feeling' the airport will be packed with arrivals.

I'm sure thousands will show up, regardless of being advised they will not get anywhere near the Staples Center without tickets and wristands.

<scarey for Los Angeles in my opinion>

[Dunlurken]

Michael was J.Branca (one of his lawyers) Best Man...

:) Good Photo...





http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/04/michael-jackson-best-man/
Michael did so much good. People keep forgetting that. He left 20% of his fortune to charities for children.
JMO.

[GentleBreeze]

You stepped over that line with your assumptions, imo. Do you have any proof whatsoever that any of those three children were sexually violated or abused by their father, at any time? Being a celebrity should not be a factor to these kind of disgusting rumors.

Where in the heck does stuff like that come from? There has never been one iota of proof that MJ molested his children.

I guess if the children writes a book one day about how the media and society had misunderstood MJ and that he was truly a great father some will call them bald face liars because it isn't what they wanted to hear. :shrug:

This reminds me of the old church lady always gossiping and making stuff up so they can spread it around and watch it grow.:rolleyes:

I think these children have wonderful treasured memories of their father.

imo

[FrankieBones1]

I'll have to say that I was bothered by seeing pictures within hours of his death, of his children, with their faces exposed. I have to wonder how much money was paid for those family pictures, and who sold them.

And what about the video played last night of the two kids playing with Michael and singing? It was priceless. I think it was on Dateline.

I can't imagine what a network would pay for vid clips and photos like that.

[n/t]

Wow!
Jane Valez Mitchell is talking about it now. The intersection of the 10 and the 110 highway is normally bumper to bumper. What's it going to be like on Tuesday? If you don't have a ticket and wristband, you don't get into the area.

There will be no body at the the Staples Centre. It will be a service only.

It will be insane. I hope LE and security is ready. I don't care how many times and the amount of warnings being sent out, there will be thousands of people there.

[aproudmom]

OK so does everyone think MJ never did the dirty in his 50 years or it did not function or he just did not like Brookie and Lisa an Debbie ya know what I mean..why would he not have kids with his um fluids? I must say the kids look nothing like him but he is their father and we all agree on that..but why no kids of his own :wink:

[Dunlurken]

Wow!
Jane Valez Mitchell is talking about it now. The intersection of the 10 and the 110 highway is normally bumper to bumper. What's it going to be like on Tuesday? If you don't have a ticket and wristband, you don't get into the area.

There will be no body at the the Staples Centre. It will be a service only.

thank you. I was wondering if the body would be brought in. I'm glad to know it will not be. Thanks again. I'm hoping it will be a tribute to his life and the wonderful things he did.

Moon Walk being one of many. LOL.

[FrankieBones1]

I have to make a run to LAX tomorrow to pick up my Grandson-- I have a 'gut feeling' the airport will be packed with arrivals.

I'm sure thousands will show up, regardless of being advised they will not get anywhere near the Staples Center without tickets and wristands.

<scarey for Los Angeles in my opinion>


Yoikes! Good luck with that.

[Mamie]

To me.. being up to speed means being aware of the fact that the Jackson family is not charging a fee to attend the funeral.

Since you appear to not comprehend the meaning of "being up to speed" when given instructions on how to get up to speed (in this case), let me sum it up for you: The poster on Page 6 posted a link stating that Raleigh, NC was going to host a gathering on Tuesday for the fans of Michael Jackson. They were going to have fans speak and provide a televised feed of the event in California, and I think have some choir sing, as well. They (the organizers) are charging $5.00/person for this. I do not think they should charge anything. That was my ONLY POINT. And you aren't thinking that Tuesday morning's event at Staples Center is the actual funeral, are you?

[n/t]

I have to make a run to LAX tomorrow to pick up my Grandson-- I have a 'gut feeling' the airport will be packed with arrivals.

I'm sure thousands will show up, regardless of being advised they will not get anywhere near the Staples Center without tickets and wristands.

<scarey for Los Angeles in my opinion>

Good Luck!

[Dunlurken]

It will be insane. I hope LE and security is ready. I don't care how many times and the amount of warnings being sent out, there will be thousands of people there.

I would imagine Pandemonium. Or, a Thriller. Take your pick. Man, I'm gonna miss him. :sad:

[FrankieBones1]

OK so does everyone think MJ never did the dirty in his 50 years or it did not function or he just did not like Brookie and Lisa an Debbie ya know what I mean..why would he not have kids with his um fluids? I must say the kids look nothing like him but he is their father and we all agree on that..but why no kids of his own :wink:

I think he was very asexual. Or could it be that he had his sperm tested and he had slower swimmers.

[TunaMelt]

Have to disagree. He lived what he was taught, and actually had enough fortitude to let his own father "go". You know, that guy who used to beat him with a belt and take him to strip clubs when he was just a kid.

I do know what's said about Jackson's father.

I do know some fathers beat their kids. I also know that not all those kids grow up to be screwed up drug addicts with other problems -- most don't.

As for having enough fortitude to let his father "go" -- okay. But then we can't blame Joe Jackson for turning him into the messed up mess he was. Michael that is.

Michael Jackson was a man old enough to be a grandfather. No excuses for that guy. He was his own victim. He was his own fault.