Tyrone Revisited

[2-B]

I'm bringing this over from the link Cloudbuster provided in the "Hypothetically Speaking" thread because I've been mulling over the Tyrone antiques shop facts as we know them again lately and still have some unanswered questions:

The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop several weeks before Ray Gricar went missing.
Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.
He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.
Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.
WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone.
Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver did not return a call by press time this morning.

http://www.tyronepa.com/v3/2006/05/17/

[bolding mine]

The most inexplicable issue to me in the Tyrone scenario is what I've bolded above.

Why were the Marshalls contacted sometime after Gricar's disappearance? The Tyrone incident apparently took place two or three weeks prior to April 15. Obviously, RG would have been seen many places in those weeks prior to his disappearance. What prompted the contact?

Two possibilities come immediately to mind. First, given the LMW reports in April 2005, did LE contact a list of antique shops to see if RG had ever been elsewhere with a woman fitting the LMW description? Or, conversely, did someone tip off LE that RG might have been seen in the Tyrone shop specifically with someone fitting the LMW description?

I'm interested in seeing whether anyone has other possible explanations for the contact between LE and the Marshalls after RG's disappearance and any ideas about what the contact might mean to this mystery, if anything.

I also still find the explanation that PF was the woman the Marshalls saw difficult to fit into the facts as we know them. I can understand PF making that claim, as she may well have been to that shop with RG on any number of occasions and could easily confuse dates, times, etc.

What I can't understand is the Marshalls remaining adamant after the fact that it was not PF while LE allegedly confirmed it was PF. The issue of confirmation remains a sticking point for me. The Marshalls would have had copies of any signed credit card receipts if purchases were involved, no? A personal check written by PF on PF's account seems to be the only evidence the Marshalls would not have had placing PF there. But RG was the one interested in antiques. His birthday and Christmas were many months away, and people don't usually make purchases of such gifts in the presence of their significant other, anyway, if she were purchasing a gift. What evidence could irrefutably place PF in the Tyrone shop on the date in question?

[gstickley]

(snip)
The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop several weeks before Ray Gricar went missing.
Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.
He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.
Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.
WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone.
Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver did not return a call by press time this morning.

http://www.tyronepa.com/v3/2006/05/17/

(snip)


2-B, I'm so glad we're "re-visiting" the Tyrone MW. I too have had questions about this from the beginning.

***Did not Marshall know RG & LG personally prior to this sighting?

***If BPD gave Marshall the description of the LMW (wasn't she described as looking like Sara James?) & the TMW matched that description, it wasn't PF in the shop with RG; there's no way Sara James & PF could be mistaken for each other, in height, hair style, looks, etc.

***Unless Marshall knew the exact date RG & the TMW were in his shop, there is no way PF could know she was the person with RG. Granted, PF may have visited the shop with RG in the past but, according to Marshall, it was not PF on the particular day he saw RG & the TMW.

***I'm sure you realize that, had the information been made public a year earlier, others might have observed RG & the TMW.

***How long after RG's disappearance did BPD contact Marshall?

***Was Marshall ever able to narrow down the date RG/TMW were in his shop?

[2-B]

GS, the news reports on the Tyrone incident said that the Marshalls knew RG and identified him. I can't find any reports indicating whether they knew PF and LG or didn't know PF and LG, only that the Marshalls eliminated both girlfriend and daughter as the "mystery woman" with Gricar. In a television interview, Mrs. Marshall described the woman with RG as tall, thin, with long dark hair and very attractive. According to one media report, RG and the woman were in the shop browsing and chatting for at least 20 minutes, so this was not a fleeting sighting.

Eliminating a person from an identification is generally easier and more accurate than including a person in an identification. Given the description, I think it's probably not particularly important whether the Marshalls knew PF and LG personally or had only seen photos. LG is tall with long hair but can likely be eliminated because of her blonde hair. PF has dark hair, but can likely be eliminated because she has been described as petite and her hair is close cropped, not long.

IIRC, DZ made the Sara James comment with regard to her hair length only, and that was a witness comment about the LMW.

I, too, would love to know how long after the disappearance the Marshalls were contacted. The reports are vague, saying only "sometime" after. We don't hear from the Marshalls until May '06 when all the fuss about the LMW came to light.

Even if the Marshalls came up with an exact date of the RG visit, how could PF and LE confirm that the woman was PF while the Marshalls still maintained it was not PF? Would the Marshalls not have whatever evidence was necessary for LE to make any confirmation?

[gstickley]

I don't know if I dreamed it or if I read it someplace, but I thought the Marshall's knew RG & LG through LG & their child's school events.

You're right about the 20-minute browsing & chatting & it not being a "fleeting sighting", esp. since the Marshall's knew it was RG.

You're also right about the hair length. There's no way PF's hair cut could be compared to that of Sara James.

Until May 2006, it appears LE was more concerned about the "feelings" of PF than giving pertinent information to the public; the comments made by DZ about the "weekend away", etc., indicate that nothing about any "mystery woman" was going to be be made public in the beginning. Had the "mystery women", the gold/tan car, the man leaning into the Mini been publicized more, IMO it might have jogged the memory of someone; waiting a year to do so was a joke.

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled.

[Politigal]

Early on, police were checking on an acquaintance of Gricar's - a lady who smoked...IIRC.

IMO, they probably were originally honing in on her features...

edited to add ---

I'd *sure* like to know who exactly told police about that lady...

[2-B]

I recall asking after I read about it exactly what description they gave to residents and couldn't get an answer at that time. It seemed strange to me that they would go knock on a door and say 'have you seen a MW?' or 'did you see a woman' unless they had a very good idea of what exactly they were looking for verification of.

Was the description given at that time the same one later given by DetZ on Dateline? Just curious here as to what that early on description was, particularly what the MW was wearing. There was never a mention of whether she was a model-type in 4" heels, or a hippy chick, or an athlete or ??? Since he was supposedly there in blue jeans, fleece and sneakers, someone all decked out would certainly stand out. Why no description of the MW's attire? What was the woman in Tyrone wearing, as well as RG at the time? Dressed as casual as he was said to be in Lewisburg or in a dress suit? Why no details?
JMO

All great questions, Logic.

[2-B]

edited to add ---

I'd *sure* like to know who exactly told police about that lady...

Me too, the same way I'd like to know why police contacted the Marshalls.

[Cloudbuster]

Early on, police were checking on an acquaintance of Gricar's - a lady who smoked...IIRC.

IMO, they probably were originally honing in on her features...

edited to add ---

I'd *sure* like to know who exactly told police about that lady...

JKA told us about her friend that LE questioned her on that SMOKED. LE already had a zone on who this mystery woman was right from the beginning. Question is why JKA's friend right from the start? Who clued LE in about this friend of JKA's very early on? It even seemed to surprise JKA. So would SS have some info or someone else? It wouldn't be MS he was in Pittsburgh camping. Who was there that early on to tell LE about JKA"s friend? Ray wasn't real close to to many it seems so that leaves a few including LM who hasn't said much about this case in general. For the record LM was somewhat close to RG. I don't have a link but strechy ears lol.
jmoo

[Cloudbuster]

Seems to me after they was zoning in on the MW that early on Im sure the person who told LE about JKA's friend also supplied some places that perhaps he knew RG took this JKA friend. Perhaps he knew certain things cause perhaps there was times he tagged along so to speak.....connect the dots and you got who zoned LE in. Its easy to figure out but no I don't have a link but believe me on my stretcy ears.

[sherrijean981]

Why not just say it? It would have to be a friend or relative to "tag" along with RG, right? Can't imagine RG taking anyone on a date with him, but as a group?

I wonder if DZ himself didn't say something about the woman. He seemed all too quick to say about him having a lot of explaining to do to PF.

If RG had been seeing a woman, the MW, before PF, just dating, wouldn't he have gone to his favorite restaurant with her, been seen around town by numerous people? As "just a friend" at the time would he have taken her to any county functions as his date?

[sherrijean981]

Me too, the same way I'd like to know why police contacted the Marshalls.


I thought that was answered in one of the "lost" threads in 2006? I remember reading the explanation on it. S1 where are you when we need you to look at your files?

[2-B]

I thought that was answered in one of the "lost" threads in 2006? I remember reading the explanation on it. S1 where are you when we need you to look at your files?

If there was ever an answer to this, SJ, and you can remember it, I'd be grateful if you can provide it. It's bugged me ever since 2006, and I honestly don't remember an official explanation of it, just a lot of speculation.

[Cloudbuster]

Why not just say it? It would have to be a friend or relative to "tag" along with RG, right? Can't imagine RG taking anyone on a date with him, but as a group?

I wonder if DZ himself didn't say something about the woman. He seemed all too quick to say about him having a lot of explaining to do to PF.

If RG had been seeing a woman, the MW, before PF, just dating, wouldn't he have gone to his favorite restaurant with her, been seen around town by numerous people? As "just a friend" at the time would he have taken her to any county functions as his date?

SJ it's not like RG took this person on a date with him. It was more like the tag along helped the scene look like it was work related, and not a date like setting. Problem of why is because this MW is very publically known just as RG is, if not more so. The tag along is easy to figure out. Some wonder why Lewisburg. I think the further away the better. Plus the area might have been better for the MW in driving but that I don't know for sure. Also this is not a speculation with my stretchy ears. Its a good source and the only reason I can't furnish that is because it would not be fair to that person, otherwise I would just say it with no problem. I can say this much, why did the profiler and LE start to think this was a suicide after speaking with SS? Seems to me there was a problem possibly with the MW.

Just a opinion hypo.

[Politigal]

Judging from this article, I would guess the sighter(s) knew the difference in appearance between PF and the MW.

http://www.wjactv.com/news/9218826/detail.html

'Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, told police she was the woman at the antique shop, but the store's owners said it was not Fornicola, but another woman.'
JMO

IMO, it probably was Patty at the Tyrone antiques shop with RG.

I think the owners didn't come forward *until* they heard about the mystery woman at Lewisburg in the news....

And once again, IMO, it's the power of suggestion by the media.

They probably truly didn't pay that much attention to Gricar or who was with him at the shop, until he was reported missing and not until they heard about that mystery woman and her description.

But, that's just my humble opinion.

[2-B]

IMO, it probably was Patty at the Tyrone antiques shop with RG.

I think the owners didn't come forward *until* they heard about the mystery woman at Lewisburg in the news....

And once again, IMO, it's the power of suggestion by the media.

They probably truly didn't pay that much attention to Gricar or who was with him at the shop, until he was reported missing and not until they heard about that mystery woman and her description.

But, that's just my humble opinion.

I took this idea out for a serious test drive last night and this morning, Pgal, and here's where I get hung up:

If PF was the woman in the shop and the Marshalls didn't come forward until the power of suggestion by the media prompted them in May 2006, then why did LE contact the Marshalls to interview them after RG disappeared?

[Politigal]

I took this idea out for a serious test drive last night and this morning, Pgal, and here's where I get hung up:

If PF was the woman in the shop and the Marshalls didn't come forward until the power of suggestion by the media prompted them in May 2006, then why did LE contact the Marshalls to interview them after RG disappeared?

part of the "no stone unturned" process?

I'm not really sure of the sequence of events...

1) I think the Marshall's didn't come forward until they heard about the mystery woman - which would have been approx May 2006

2) Police probably then interviewed them

3) Patty then says she was the one at Tyrone....

:shrug:

I'm really just guessing here...

[2-B]

Could be, Pgal. The reports say only that LE contacted the Marshalls "sometime after" Gricar disappeared, which is awfully vague.

But I always thought the sequence was

1) Gricar disappears
2) LE contacts the Marshalls
3) Media announces LMW, May 2006
4) Marshalls come forward to local media saying LMW matches description of woman in shop with RG a few weeks prior to his disappearance.

I could be totally wrong since we don't know when "after the disappearance" LE contacted them.

But the Marshalls didn't contact news media/come forward until May 15, 2006. (The LMW details were made front page news on May 13, 2006.) The same day, May 15, the news was reporting that LE believed the woman in the shop to be PF. That would mean LE had to contact the Marshalls and decide it was PF all on the day the Marshalls came forward, right?

[Politigal]

it could have involved the span of several days for the various news reports/interviews, etc...who knows

I found this on Websleuths:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-39539

News this evening stated that Tony Gricar was in Centre County today to meet with police/investigators. He stated that he has spoken with police and with Patty Fornicola about the "sighting" in the Tyrone area antique shop and they feel it was definately Patty who was with Ray in that shop.

Tony Gricar feels that his uncle is dead, but wants all avenues investigated.

[2-B]

IMO, it probably was Patty at the Tyrone antiques shop with RG.

I think the owners didn't come forward *until* they heard about the mystery woman at Lewisburg in the news....



Still kind of tossing around possibilities about Tyrone in the back of my mind while thinking about other aspects of this case.

Was re-reading comments attached to the "Foul play theory weakened" CDT article just now and came across one from our own SJ which mentioned that she had met PF in person. In this comment, SJ described PF as "petite."

The Marshalls describe the woman in the shop with Gricar as "tall," and matching the description given for the LMW, 5'8" to 5'10".

I've seen other descriptions of PF giving the overall impression that she is small or petite. Overall impression for both LMW and TMW is tall.

Just another reason that makes me lean toward the TMW being someone other than PF.

[Politigal]

It's still curious to me though why the Marshalls apparently didn't come forward until they heard about the mystery woman in the news (if that's the true sequence of events.)

Also, I don't know if it might have any bearing on the sighting, but from what I've found online, the Marshalls are in their 60's....

At that age, IMO, your memory isn't as sharp & your eyesight isn't either. And if it was just a run of the mill day where a store owner glances at or sees a familiar customer come by the store, they might not have really paid very close attention, unless they actually interacted with & spoke to Gricar. And none of the articles I've read state that the Marshalls actually spoke to Gricar. They said Gricar was browsing & chatting with the woman he accompanied.

[2-B]

It's still curious to me though why the Marshalls apparently didn't come forward until they heard about the mystery woman in the news (if that's the true sequence of events.)


They came forward to the press when the LMW story broke in May 2006.

But they didn't need to come forward to the investigation, right? The way I understand things, LE had already contacted the Marshalls after RG disappeared. They'd been interviewed and given whatever information they had about RG's visit to their shop to LE whenever that contact was made.

The way I understand things, it was the description of the LMW hitting the news that made them say, "Hey, that sounds just like the woman who was in our shop with RG."

I'm guessing until they heard about the LMW, they had no reason to think there was anything more to come forward about. RG's visit to their shop took place a couple weeks prior to the disappearance and LE had already interviewed them about it. Nothing more to say, I would think, until the LMW raises her head in the media blitz a year after the disappearance.

At least that's what makes sense to me, unless I'm missing something.

[Politigal]

You could be right about the sequence.

But, apparently the Marshalls did not speak to Gricar....did not speak to the woman....did not ring up a purchase for Gricar....nor answer a question for Gricar...or have any interaction with Gricar or the woman. They simply saw him walking thru the place browsing & chatting with a woman.

And, according to this ad (and many others,) I-99 Antiques is a large gallery of 40+ antiques & collectibles dealers:

http://www.visitpa.com/things-to-do/attraction-details/index.aspx?id=67134

I'd be curious to know how far away from Gricar they were when they saw him.

[Politigal]

ps...

here's a bird's eye map of where I-99 Antiques is located.

I'm not sure, but from the description in the ads, and also in looking at google maps, it's on the right side of the street.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qsbxqn8gd60z&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=41966296&encType=1

[Cloudbuster]

That antique shop in Tyrone IMO is not far from Raystown lake area. I was at Raystown lake and remember a sign to the antique place but we turned left to the lake instead of right to head toward the antique place.

[sherrijean981]

You could be right about the sequence.

But, apparently the Marshalls did not speak to Gricar....did not speak to the woman....did not ring up a purchase for Gricar....nor answer a question for Gricar...or have any interaction with Gricar or the woman. They simply saw him walking thru the place browsing & chatting with a woman.

And, according to this ad (and many others,) I-99 Antiques is a large gallery of 40+ antiques & collectibles dealers:

http://www.visitpa.com/things-to-do/attraction-details/index.aspx?id=67134

I'd be curious to know how far away from Gricar they were when they saw him.


I was actually disappointed when I was in the antique shop. It seemed mostly open with a few walls stuck in here and there and there was a basement area you accessed from the doors in, not from inside the store. There were 2 sets of door to the store. It seemed smaller than the SOS to me, but nicer. The checkout counter was just inside the doors so the cashier can see anyone entering or leaving.

[2-B]

The checkout counter was just inside the doors so the cashier can see anyone entering or leaving.

Thanks for the description of the shop, SJ. The position of the checkout counter must be why the Marshalls were able to say RG and the woman left in the Mini Cooper.

[Politigal]

Thanks for the description of the shop, SJ. The position of the checkout counter must be why the Marshalls were able to say RG and the woman left in the Mini Cooper.

you would think if the Marshalls were that close to Gricar as he was exiting the building that they would have spoken....

[2-B]

you would think if the Marshalls were that close to Gricar as he was exiting the building that they would have spoken....

I went back and checked my notes because the "not speaking" part didn't jibe with my memory. (You know I'm OCD about accuracy. :biggrin:)

Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.

He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

[Politigal]

I missed that before....I didn't think they had spoken.

I wonder if Gricar purchased anything & perhaps Patty confirmed what the purchase was...and that's why they (police & family) believe she was indeed the woman he accompanied?

[2-B]

I missed that before....I didn't think they had spoken.

I wonder if Gricar purchased anything & perhaps Patty confirmed what the purchase was...and that's why they (police & family) believe she was indeed the woman he accompanied?

Would that be confirmation of anything, though? Ray could have come home one day saying he'd stopped at the Tryone antiques shop and bought "X." Patty knowing that "X" was purchased at the shop at a particular time wouldn't necessarily mean she was there when it was purchased, right?

I would still be left wondering why LE contacted the Marshalls in the first place. If PF was the woman in the shop with RG, why would LE seek out the Marshalls to check on RG's visit to the shop? I could understand it if the Marshalls had contacted LE originally, but not the other way around.

[Politigal]

just another of the many unanswered puzzles in this case

[sherrijean981]

I went back and checked my notes because the "not speaking" part didn't jibe with my memory. (You know I'm OCD about accuracy. :biggrin:)

Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.

He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

He isn't saying the woman was with RG in the car when he left. Only that Ray left in the same car. Maybe she met him there in her own car, IF, it is another woman.

[sherrijean981]

I wonder if I-99 has personalized bags with their business name on that they put purchases in. Just thinking of that plastic bag with the cassette tape in it that was picked up by the postal carrier on Saturday. I've never been to I-99 so I have no idea, but maybe SJ knows, if she visited there.
JMO

I didn't purchase anything, the guy at the counter was not Marshall, and there was only another couple browsing.

[sherrijean981]

Is there a woman DA in Blair or Huntingdon County, or was there one in 2005? Could someone who left a position in the courthouse, know something about someone, and she was working with RG on it?

Just wondering if they were discussing certain person/s , in a case they might have been working on, away from the office? Or someone was telling him things about an employee of RG's? If there were things going on in the court house that were bothering him, he would not want anyone there to know about the problem until he was reading to bring it out, or know he knew what what going on. Not knowing who he could trust?

I don't know if you understand what I mean or not, just how it is going in my mind. :confused:

[2-B]

He isn't saying the woman was with RG in the car when he left. Only that Ray left in the same car. Maybe she met him there in her own car, IF, it is another woman.

That particular news report doesn't say the woman left in the same car with Ray. However, a poster on WS reported on 5/15 watching a news report on TV where Mrs. Marshall said Ray and the woman left together in the Mini Cooper.

[Politigal]

I still believe it was probably Patty with RG at Tyrone....

....I guess because I simply don't believe in the "mystery woman" at all...especially at Lewisburg.

I don't believe anyone really saw RG there...much less RG with a mystery woman.

[2-B]

I still believe it was probably Patty with RG at Tyrone....

....I guess because I simply don't believe in the "mystery woman" at all...especially at Lewisburg.

I don't believe anyone really saw RG there...much less RG with a mystery woman.

Mmm. I don't think the evidence supports RG being in the SOS, either, Pgal, much less with a mystery woman. I don't think that rules out RG being in Tyrone with prior to the disappearance with someone other than PF, though.

If I had to guess (and this is just a WAG), I'd guess reports of the LMW were somehow linked to reports he'd been seen in Tyrone prior to the disappearance with a woman fitting a similar description, prompting contact with the Marshalls to see if RG had visited the shop and what the circumstances of that visit might have been. I'd guess the Marshalls knew nothing of the LMW until May 2006. I could be way off, but that's what it looks like to me.

[Amused]

Again, begging patience to the comparatively uninformed here (me)....
but, I do know the place in Tyrone. It's really small and if Mr Gricar had stopped in, I have no doubt he would be noticed. Seriously, this area is not all that big and he had been in office and on television for so long that he was a "known" face here in Happy Valley.

Now the question for which I am begging patience......
What do the majority here think happened to Mr. Gricar??
(I realize there will be a variety of opinions, hence the "majority")

Suicide
Walk Away
Foul Play

??

[Amused]

eta:
The "Amused" nic has nothing to do with this case......
wouldn't want anyone to think I was being disrepectful.

[gstickley]

Again, begging patience to the comparatively uninformed here (me)....
but, I do know the place in Tyrone. It's really small and if Mr Gricar had stopped in, I have no doubt he would be noticed. Seriously, this area is not all that big and he had been in office and on television for so long that he was a "known" face here in Happy Valley.

Now the question for which I am begging patience......
What do the majority here think happened to Mr. Gricar??
(I realize there will be a variety of opinions, hence the "majority")

Suicide
Walk Away
Foul Play

??

Hi, Amused.

I can't speak for the "majority", but I can give you my opinion.

Suicide: No. I do not believe RG committed suicide. He appeared to have quite a lot to live for: impending retirement, his daughter & the rest of his family, his intent to travel, his retirement funds & Social Security; also, I don't believe RG would have done this to his family.

Walk Away: No. I do not believe RG walked away, for all of the reasons listed above.

Foul Play: I hate to think RG was the victim of foul play but, since I've eliminated the other 2 possibilities, this is all that is left.

(This is my opinion, to which I am entitled.)

[Amused]

thanks, gstickley, for responding.
Is that the prevalent theory here? (It's my gut-feeling also, btw.)

I'm amazed at how many people here (Centre County, lol, not insessions), when I ask, think that he is in a witness protection program.
Seriously, I get that response more than any other.

[puzzled]

I have said since day one that I believe he was set up, lured and murdered. I think it would be an answer to my prayers if he were found alive and well. I would not be upset with him at all either. However I don't think that he is alive unfortunately.

[2-B]

Again, begging patience to the comparatively uninformed here (me)....
but, I do know the place in Tyrone. It's really small and if Mr Gricar had stopped in, I have no doubt he would be noticed. Seriously, this area is not all that big and he had been in office and on television for so long that he was a "known" face here in Happy Valley.

Now the question for which I am begging patience......
What do the majority here think happened to Mr. Gricar??
(I realize there will be a variety of opinions, hence the "majority")

Suicide
Walk Away
Foul Play

??

I've been following this case since Day 1. For a very long time, I wavered among all three prominent theories and could easily argue any one of the three. There was even a time perhaps a year and several months after the disappearance that I was fairly convinced that RG walked away from his life, but that was before I started the in-depth kind of research I've been doing since that time.

Little by little (like others who have answered your excellent question), things I learned caused me to chip away at two of the main theories.

I no longer give much weight to the possibility of suicide for several reasons.

Likewise, I think walkaway is unlikely, with some narrow exceptions and some extenuating circumstances. I do not believe in the YITMAMPWT (Years In The Making and Meticulously Planned Walkaway Theory), where RG is alleged to have spent years squirreling away money, planning to walk away from his life, and doing all this to gain some kind of legendary status so that people will "still be talking about him."

I sadly think it is most likely that RG is no longer with us. As I understand it, this is the conclusion that TG, LG, and others close to him have also arrived at. As I understand it, this is the conclusion DZ also reached.

I see no problem with reaching an educated "most likely" conclusion about this case after studying it closely for years. We aren't LE. We don't need evidence to indict, so long as what we're saying is "most likely met with foul play" rather than hollering that Person X killed Ray Gricar.

I do see a problem with the public polls touted by the LHG, the ones that show a majority of Centre County residents choosing "walkaway" as the most likely scenario. I highly doubt those participating in that kind of poll have anything remotely close to the intimate familiarity with the publicly released details of the case that those of us who have followed this board (and other boards) have. I have no doubt their opinions (to which they're entitled) are based on rather superficial familiarity with the case, and not with the minutiae we obsess over here. How many of them know exactly where the hard drive and laptop were found? How many of them know that RG threatened his staff with severe reprimand if they did not patch a call from Lara through to him immediately? How many of them would know that one of his ADA's said RG prided himself on being able to be reached by his staff when he was not in the office? How many of them know that the Mini Cooper's presence alone could have been responsible for RG's scent in the parking lot? Those are but a few paltry examples of the kinds of things that affect how one looks at possible theories in this case.

I thnk the public polling was more for political reasons than for anything else.

What we need is a poll here, where readers read regularly, even if they don't post regularly.

So far, just with those who have been vocal enough to post, not one person has put walkway at the top of the list.

[sherrijean981]

I agree, GS.

The evidence, NO body, in no way points toward suicide or walkaway.
That leaves only foul play.

The case is stalled as long as the other two theories are held on to. The only way they can hold onto them is by going against the evidence----NO body. If the goal is to solve the case, they are going to have to move into the position that NO body is evidence.
JMO


Even if there is no body, any 3 of the scenerio's would work.

Recently, and not sure where I read it, there was a body found 30 years after disapperance. Foul play.

Another body found many years later, link on the forum, of a skeleton found in the Pocono's with a tree lying on it. Did he die from the tree falling on him or was it placed there?

Bones being found years and years later in many areas with no method of foul play or suicide.

I still can't forget that CF saw RG in another car in the afternoon of 4/15/05. Could he have walked away? Yes. But he either bought the car previously or he was using someone else's and that someone might have helped him.

I guess I can't give an opinion on the 3 because I have hope he is still alive. But I also believe there are evil people out there who would do another person harm.

In fact, I was speaking to a young man who transferred from NY to Lewistown and will be going to college in the fall. We were discussing drugs from NY, NJ and PA. He said even living in the city, a person standing beside you, dressed in the same close as you, could be a multi millionare or a drug dealer. The easy way to blend in is to dress as the majority and no one knows who you are or what you do.

Was RG trying to "blend in" on 4/15/2005?