6/27 to 6/28 -- #5

[RootBeer]

New thread.

Link to what is on LKL tonight:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

[CinderL.]

TMZ Jackson Fam -- Debbie Rowe Can See Her Kids.

A source close to the family of Michael Jackson tells TMZ if Debbie Rowe reaches out to them, and wants to see her kids, they won't stand in the way.

However, we're told the family is holding strong in its position that the kids should stay with their grandmother Katherine.

We're told the family believes it would be "unfair" for the kids to grow up not knowing their biological mother.

[legalmania]

New thread.

Link to what is on LKL tonight:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

Is this gonna be the new link?

[Avalon]

Wow, it's tough keeping up with you guys!

Legalmania, was that a link to a "Jam" by MJ? I was talking about a song by Teddy Riley's group Guy called "Jam"....late 80's I think. Pretty much mostly an instrumental....I remember it from Soul Train. But thank you honey!

P.S. Actually I think it was called "Teddy's Jam".

(I know....who cares....)

[CinderL.]

Is this gonna be the new link?

:shrug: I hope so, I was over at the other one "refreshing" for a long time before I saw it was closed. :laugh:

[legalmania]

TMZ Jackson Fam -- Debbie Rowe Can See Her Kids.

A source close to the family of Michael Jackson tells TMZ if Debbie Rowe reaches out to them, and wants to see her kids, they won't stand in the way.

However, we're told the family is holding strong in its position that the kids should stay with their grandmother Katherine.

We're told the family believes it would be "unfair" for the kids to grow up not knowing their biological mother.

Well I hope Debbie steps up and gets to know her children. They may be angry in the beginning but in the long run they need a least one parent in their lives.

[aproudmom]

New thread.

Link to what is on LKL tonight:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

thanks just ignore my PM wondered why the thread had been closed..thought something happened

[aproudmom]

:shrug: I hope so, I was over at the other one "refreshing" for a long time before I saw it was closed. :laugh:

I thought I had lost it kept trying to find everyone and everything was closed...:laugh:

[SDMermaid]

Why should they be angry MJ wanted them to himself without her help that was the arrangement.


Well I hope Debbie steps up and gets to know her children. They may be angry in the beginning but in the long run they need a least one parent in their lives.

[RootBeer]

thanks just ignore my PM wondered why the thread had been closed..thought something happened

All good things to those who wait. :thumbsup:

[legalmania]

Wow, it's tough keeping up with you guys!

Legalmania, was that a link to a "Jam" by MJ? I was talking about a song by Teddy Riley's group Guy called "Jam"....late 80's I think. Pretty much mostly an instrumental....I remember it from Soul Train. But thank you honey!

P.S. Actually I think it was called "Teddy's Jam".

(I know....who cares....)

There is a song called Jam by MJ I thought I would play it for Teddy, it's got Michael Jordon in it. That's to funny. I don't remember a group called Jam.

[SDMermaid]

I think now his kids will have a better life from this article it sounds like MJ was not the best parent people made him out to be they didn't even have friends their own age!:cursing:

I hope Debbie steps up and fights for the kids and if she doesn't get them I would love for her to write a book about the real MJ we don't know I would buy it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs
/news/2009/06/28/michael-jackson-s-heartbroken-kids-say-we-miss-daddy-115875-21476862/

[RootBeer]

Scroll down to find this article:

http://www.tmz.com/page/2/

In the first auction since the pop star passed away, the 21 pieces of Jackson memorabilia up for sale got some mind-blowing bids at Julien's Auctions in Las Vegas.

Check out some of the top sales:
- Victory tour shirt: estimate $1000-1500... sold for 42k
- Jackson 5 signed album: estimate $400-600... sold for 27k
- Original painting of Mickey Mouse: estimate $1000-1500... sold for 20k
- Original drawing of a boy: estimate $1500-2000... sold for 16k
- Handwritten note to "Greg": estimate $200-300... sold for 15k

[legalmania]

Why should they be angry MJ wanted them to himself without her help that was the arrangement.

Things have changed though. The kids are very emotional right now. They are going to need their mother.

[RootBeer]

Things have changed though. The kids are very emotional right now. They are going to need their mother.

To them, their mother is Grace. jmo

[aproudmom]

I am starting to think he did have some sort of Cancer I saw a pic of him leaving a doctors office in March IIRC..but the sad thing is I keep reading he feared 2 things 1 dying:sad: kinda like he knew he would not live to be a old man..I think MJ was over doing it and with the stress his heart just stopped..and I do not know about his nose it could or could not be true does not really matter to me actually kinda sad to read..and 4 hours of testing to make sure he was ready for this tour I am not so sure 4hrs was enough...

http://www.metrolyrics.com/2009-michael-jackson-is-reportedly-scared-that-his-nose-will-fall-off-and-lives-in-constant-fear-of-dying-news.html

"Michael is in a fragile state at the moment, and the skin cancer diagnosis has terrified him. He has been told he has a very good chance of recovering and that his cancer is very treatable. But he is still very stressed and worried."

Jacko has already postponed the first four of his London shows at the O2 Arena later this year.

[VC2]

bringing over from the last thread:

It defies common sense to think that any disease caused him to turn white. Isn't it obvious that he shunned his heritage by choosing white women with whom to have children?

wow. just wow. i am almost speechless. I am not going to even try to respond to your post directly but vitiligo IS a disease that causes people to turn white. That is essentially the definition of it, it destroys skin pigment. White people get the disease too but its not as obvious as in black people.
The most notable symptom of Vitiligo is depigmentation of patches of skin that occurs on the extremities. Although patches are initially small in size, they can often start to enlarge and change shape. When skin lesions occur, they are most prominent on the face, hands and wrists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo
the link has a picture of a hand "turning white" as you put it.

Tracian ` as far as evenly, it is my understanding that it started in patches like with everyone else, and in fact its why he wore gloves, then turned the "one glove" into part of his persona. All we have ever seen
of his body is his face and hands. His face has always been heavily made up which would even out patches.

IMO

[VC2]

Well I hope Debbie steps up and gets to know her children. They may be angry in the beginning but in the long run they need a least one parent in their lives.

Gosh i am not so sure Legalmania. it would sort of like suddenly being told a strange lady is now your mom and you must love her. They hardly know her and much from her own choice.

After reading the interview in the Daily Mail with her just last year, i am not so sure she is that tightly wrapped. She seemed upset that the kids were photographed without their veils or masks. Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did. Yet what in heck, does she think you keep kids of 11 years old in veils?

She said she "did the breeding part, she doesnt need the rest of that b.s." about marriage, hardly sounds maternal.

IMO

Here is her interview of last year for those who have not read it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html

[Tracian]

Gosh i am not so sure Legalmania. it would sort of like suddenly being told a strange lady is now your mom and you must love her. They hardly know her and much from her own choice.

After reading the interview in the Daily Mail with her just last year, i am not so sure she is that tightly wrapped. She seemed upset that the kids were photographed without their veils or masks. Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did. Yet what in heck, does she think you keep kids of 11 years old in veils?

She said she "did the breeding part, she doesnt need the rest of that b.s." about marriage, hardly sounds maternal.

IMO

Bolding mine:

So what, if it is true, MJ didn't have a mind of his own when it came to his children, that he was raising, that she had nothing to do with?

Whose idea was it to dangle 'blanket' over the balcony?

[CinderL.]

Things have changed though. The kids are very emotional right now. They are going to need their mother.

Do they even know their mother? And, what mother would let their kids go in the first place?

[Avalon]

I think I have the ticket stub from the '84 Victory Tour in Philly. Not that I would sell it, but I'm sure all mementoes will be wanted by collectors.

(Legal, Teddy's group was named "Guy"....the song was "Teddy's Jam" and it was an R&B hit, not mainstream.)

[CinderL.]

Gosh i am not so sure Legalmania. it would sort of like suddenly being told a strange lady is now your mom and you must love her. They hardly know her and much from her own choice.

After reading the interview in the Daily Mail with her just last year, i am not so sure she is that tightly wrapped. She seemed upset that the kids were photographed without their veils or masks. Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did. Yet what in heck, does she think you keep kids of 11 years old in veils?

She said she "did the breeding part, she doesnt need the rest of that b.s." about marriage, hardly sounds maternal.

IMO

Here is her interview of last year for those who have not read it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html

I didn't know she was the one who wanted the veils.

[R~O~S]

Bringing this over:

Originally by Avalon

originally by R~O~S
I'm totally shocked he didn't accompany Michael in the ambulance. What doctor turns the care of his critically ill patient over to EMT's?

You either pronounce, or you go with your patient. You don't turn him over to EMT's & go on your way leaving your car in the patients drive way.

As the story goes, Dr. Murray did ride in the ambulance and continue to do CPR....and even continued for an hour after MJ got to the ER....despite the fact everyone else knew it was fruitless at that point. Then we heard he was with the lawyer when the children were told. At some point after that, it sounds like he disappeared in all the commotion and went underground until he lawyered up.

Do you remember where you read this? I'd feel a lot better if that were true.

It just seems to me there wouldn't have been any need for LE to find him if he'd been at the hospital, they'd have had ample opportunity to talk to him at the time.

It doesn't seem to fit the timeline that he was at the hospital and with the children when they were told, they had been told rather quickly. & if he had been back at the house, why didn't he take his car when he left?

[CinderL.]

Bringing this over:



Do you remember where you read this? I'd feel a lot better if that were true.

It just seems to me there wouldn't have been any need for LE to find him if he'd been at the hospital, they'd have had ample opportunity to talk to him at the time.

It doesn't seem to fit the timeline that he was at the hospital and with the children when they were told, they had been told rather quickly. & if he had been back at the house, why didn't he take his car when he left?

I think I heard that they did talk to him the day MJ died, but wanted to talk to him again the next day too. I think he is talking to them now.

[GentleBreeze]

I am starting to think he did have some sort of Cancer I saw a pic of him leaving a doctors office in March IIRC..but the sad thing is I keep reading he feared 2 things 1 dying:sad: kinda like he knew he would not live to be a old man..I think MJ was over doing it and with the stress his heart just stopped..and I do not know about his nose it could or could not be true does not really matter to me actually kinda sad to read..and 4 hours of testing to make sure he was ready for this tour I am not so sure 4hrs was enough...

http://www.metrolyrics.com/2009-michael-jackson-is-reportedly-scared-that-his-nose-will-fall-off-and-lives-in-constant-fear-of-dying-news.html

"Michael is in a fragile state at the moment, and the skin cancer diagnosis has terrified him. He has been told he has a very good chance of recovering and that his cancer is very treatable. But he is still very stressed and worried."

Jacko has already postponed the first four of his London shows at the O2 Arena later this year.

I find it so odd that MJ would have skin cancer of all people. As a child he was unable to play out doors and I cant remember Michael not having a long sleeve shirt on when he is outside.

Sometimes I just question the validity to some of these articles when it seems everyone wants to rush out to say something.

imo

[sunstar]

Things have changed though. The kids are very emotional right now. They are going to need their mother.

From what I understand the kids have been very sheltered and right now I think the worst thing for them would be a stranger entering their life and taking over. They should be with someone they know, whether it's his mom or the nanny, or both. Adjusting to a new life is going to be difficult as it is without any more trauma. MOO

[RootBeer]

CEBU, Philippines (CNN) -- Amid the tropical heat of a Philippine prison, convicted murderers, rapists and drug dealers on Saturday paid tribute to Michael Jackson with a reprise of their YouTube dance hit, "Thriller."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/27/michael.jackson.prisoners.thriller/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[aproudmom]

Murray got a lawyer...but is talking to LE and upset over his death per CNN

[legalmania]

Gosh i am not so sure Legalmania. it would sort of like suddenly being told a strange lady is now your mom and you must love her. They hardly know her and much from her own choice.

After reading the interview in the Daily Mail with her just last year, i am not so sure she is that tightly wrapped. She seemed upset that the kids were photographed without their veils or masks. Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did. Yet what in heck, does she think you keep kids of 11 years old in veils?

She said she "did the breeding part, she doesn't need the rest of that b.s." about marriage, hardly sounds maternal.

IMO

Here is her interview of last year for those who have not read it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html

I'm not saying they should ring the doorbell and leave the kids there, she should start seeing them slowly with Grace present. They should all get to know each other. I'm not even saying they should live with her, but they should know who she is and she should be honored to know them. I think kids are the most precious gift one can have and to pass up that opportunity is a great loss on the part of the parent. Why the heck did Michael go along with the veils, if it was me I would have said no. I'll raise them my way. If the kids don't like her than at least they gave it a shot and the kids won't feel like they weren't given the opportunity.

[SDMermaid]

MJ chose to put veils on the kids he had custody Debbie didn't so he didn't have to put veils on the kids. He did the same to himself always covering up something on his face.


Gosh i am not so sure Legalmania. it would sort of like suddenly being told a strange lady is now your mom and you must love her. They hardly know her and much from her own choice.

After reading the interview in the Daily Mail with her just last year, i am not so sure she is that tightly wrapped. She seemed upset that the kids were photographed without their veils or masks. Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did. Yet what in heck, does she think you keep kids of 11 years old in veils?

She said she "did the breeding part, she doesnt need the rest of that b.s." about marriage, hardly sounds maternal.

IMO

Here is her interview of last year for those who have not read it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html

[Avalon]

Do you remember where you read this? I'd feel a lot better if that were true.

It just seems to me there wouldn't have been any need for LE to find him if he'd been at the hospital, they'd have had ample opportunity to talk to him at the time.

It doesn't seem to fit the timeline that he was at the hospital and with the children when they were told, they had been told rather quickly. & if he had been back at the house, why didn't he take his car when he left?

Oh geez, I read so many links Thurs. and Fri., I have no idea where I got that....but check TMZ's old stuff. It was MJ's lawyer who said the doctor was with him (I got the impression it was at the hospital) when the kids were told. I didn't think he named "the doctor" but someone provided a link where I believe he did say "Dr. Murray". I think when the heat started coming down on him (like, hearing his car was being towed), he skipped out "for coffee".....

[aproudmom]

From what I understand the kids have been very sheltered and right now I think the worst thing for them would be a stranger entering their life and taking over. They should be with someone they know, whether it's his mom or the nanny, or both. Adjusting to a new life is going to be difficult as it is without any more trauma. MOO

ITA and sorry I feel DR sold her kids giving birth does not make you a mother..

[CinderL.]

I'm not saying they should ring the doorbell and leave the kids there, she should start seeing them slowly with Grace present. They should all get to know each other. I'm not even saying they should live with her, but they should know who she is and she should be honored to know them. I think kids are the most precious gift one can have and to pass up that opportunity is a great loss on the part of the parent. Why the heck did Michael go along with the veils, if it was me I would have said no. I'll raise them my way. If the kids don't like her than at least they gave it a shot and the kids won't feel like they weren't given the opportunity.


She doesn't seem very maternal. I really would question her motives now if she now wanted custody. Can you say $$$. MOO

[legalmania]

Do they even know their mother? And, what mother would let their kids go in the first place?

I don't know it would have taken a lot to keep me from my kids. I couldn't live without them, but I guess that's just me.

[VC2]

Bringing this over:



Do you remember where you read this? I'd feel a lot better if that were true.

It just seems to me there wouldn't have been any need for LE to find him if he'd been at the hospital, they'd have had ample opportunity to talk to him at the time.

It doesn't seem to fit the timeline that he was at the hospital and with the children when they were told, they had been told rather quickly. & if he had been back at the house, why didn't he take his car when he left?

I don't have the link but i also read that. he refused to stop doing cpr as well even after the emergency doctors wanted to call it over. as far as his car, he went in the ambulance (no emt's are going to refuse a doctor accompanying his patient, they have authority the emt's don't), and the house and street were blocked off by the time it was all over.

I think he was frantic, i mean imagine being the doctor at the house in charge of MJ's physical health when he drops down dead. I don't care how professional a doc is normally, the biggest album seller of all time and one of the worlds biggest celebrities drops down dead on your watch, it is normal to want to keep going past all hope. It just would be mind blowing whether or not he had anything to do with it.

IMO

[CinderL.]

I don't know it would have taken a lot to keep me from my kids. I couldn't live without them, but I guess that's just me.

Exactly. I don't know many moms that would sell their kids. And that is exactly what I think she did.

[SDMermaid]

I don't have kids nor do I want any so I can understand how Debbie feels but that doesn't mean we aren't motherly I'm a very good mommy to my 4 cats and I'm protective towards my niece that doesn't have a mommy (my sister died when she was 24)


I'm not saying they should ring the doorbell and leave the kids there, she should start seeing them slowly with Grace present. They should all get to know each other. I'm not even saying they should live with her, but they should know who she is and she should be honored to know them. I think kids are the most precious gift one can have and to pass up that opportunity is a great loss on the part of the parent. Why the heck did Michael go along with the veils, if it was me I would have said no. I'll raise them my way. If the kids don't like her than at least they gave it a shot and the kids won't feel like they weren't given the opportunity.

[CinderL.]

I don't have the link but i also read that. he refused to stop doing cpr as well even after the emergency doctors wanted to call it over. as far as his car, he went in the ambulance (no emt's are going to refuse a doctor accompanying his patient, they have authority the emt's don't), and the house and street were blocked off by the time it was all over.

I think he was frantic, i mean imagine being the doctor at the house in charge of MJ's physical health when he drops down dead. I don't care how professional a doc is normally, the biggest album seller of all time and one of the worlds biggest celebrities drops down dead on your watch, it is normal to want to keep going past all hope. It just would be mind blowing whether or not he had anything to do with it.

IMO

So far, I feel really bad for the guy. We'll see if he had anything to do with the death, ie. injecting him with drugs. But, now I think he is really wishing he had stayed with his practice.

[Mimi428]

Also ..just fyi for all those who thought mj came up with the veils/masks, it was her who did.

<snipped>

Wow! That is one powerful woman. She hasn't had repeated contact with the kids in years, yet they couldn't take off the veils. And apparently she had MJ under some kind of spell, since he didn't let them take off the veils - nor did he take off his own, long after she was gone.

Incredible. Who knew she had such a hold over all of their lives like that?

[aproudmom]

Oh geez, I read so many links Thurs. and Fri., I have no idea where I got that....but check TMZ's old stuff. It was MJ's lawyer who said the doctor was with him (I got the impression it was at the hospital) when the kids were told. I didn't think he named "the doctor" but someone provided a link where I believe he did say "Dr. Murray". I think when the heat started coming down on him (like, hearing his car was being towed), he skipped out "for coffee".....

you are correct he did go to the hospital with him in the Ambulance and stayed for awhile LE did talk to him. he never ran or hid it was all a bunch of bull out of alot of mouths..for all we know LE told him he could not take his car IIRC he wanted to get a lawyer before he was talked to..and he is cooperating from the report on CNN like 5 minutes ago

[Tracian]

According to this article, Rowe does have parental rights:

Katherine Jackson may wish to keep the children, but Michael Jackson wanted them to be taken care of by their nanny if anything happened to him, ABC News reported, quoting Stacey Brown, co- author of "Michael Jackson Behind the Mask."

Meanwhile, Rowe's former attorney tells People that a judge returned parental rights to Rowe in 2005, so she is the legal parent of her two children with Jackson and can gain custody of them


http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/06/26/jackson.children.will/index.html

[CinderL.]

<snipped>

Wow! That is one powerful woman. She hasn't had repeated contact with the kids in years, yet they couldn't take off the veils. And apparently she had MJ under some kind of spell, since he didn't let them take off the veils - nor did he take off his own, long after she was gone.

Incredible. Who knew she had such a hold over all of their lives like that?

The veil thing really sounded like MJ. I am not saying he was any great shakes as a parent either. I hope these kids turn out ok. The odds are kind of against them. MOO

[legalmania]

She doesn't seem very maternal. I really would question her motives now if she now wanted custody. Can you say $$$. MOO

Didn't she do that in the first place? it seems the time to bargain is in the beginning. Now I don't know what she signed.

[VC2]

MJ chose to put veils on the kids he had custody Debbie didn't so he didn't have to put veils on the kids. He did the same to himself always covering up something on his face.

actually as far as her reasons went i can understand and even think it made some sense for MJ to go along with it. They were huge targets for some kidnapper or if their faces were well known, when out with the nanny getting surrounded. At a young age i don't think it hurt them any when in the public venue.

As far as michael goes, well considering his vitiligo it would have been rather stupid not to cover himself up at times..if he chose a mask some of those occasions thats fine, and also don't forget since it is an auto immune disease he had to be especially careful if he had a cold or anything at all not to get something that would make it worse. A mask would protect him if he was already ill or when lupus was out of remission giving him two active auto immune diseases.

IMO

[CinderL.]

According to this article, Rowe does have parental rights:



http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/06/26/jackson.children.will/index.html

From everything I have read, she does have the right. But, IMO, the only reason she would want them now is for the money.

[Tracian]

<snipped>

Wow! That is one powerful woman. She hasn't had repeated contact with the kids in years, yet they couldn't take off the veils. And apparently she had MJ under some kind of spell, since he didn't let them take off the veils - nor did he take off his own, long after she was gone.

Incredible. Who knew she had such a hold over all of their lives like that?

Yeah, even a child that was not 'hers' she controlled from afar.....

[*Serenity*]

<snipped>

Wow! That is one powerful woman. She hasn't had repeated contact with the kids in years, yet they couldn't take off the veils. And apparently she had MJ under some kind of spell, since he didn't let them take off the veils - nor did he take off his own, long after she was gone.

Incredible. Who knew she had such a hold over all of their lives like that?

It could have been part of their agreement/buyout. I read where she feared the children would be kidnapped -- hence the covering of their faces.

[sunstar]

I find it so odd that MJ would have skin cancer of all people. As a child he was unable to play out doors and I cant remember Michael not having a long sleeve shirt on when he is outside.

Sometimes I just question the validity to some of these articles when it seems everyone wants to rush out to say something.

imo

I also thought it was odd, unless it is has something to do with the vitiligo. :shrug: MOO

[CinderL.]

Didn't she do that in the first place? it seems the time to bargain is in the beginning. Now I don't know what she signed.

Yes, she did do it for the money. Then went back to court and the judge said she still has parental rights. I think.

[Tracian]

From everything I have read, she does have the right. But, IMO, the only reason she would want them now is for the money.


I tend to agree, but since she has the right to the two older children, should she fight, she has standing.

[legalmania]

I don't have kids nor do I want any so I can understand how Debbie feels but that doesn't mean we aren't motherly I'm a very good mommy to my 4 cats and I'm protective towards my niece that doesn't have a mommy (my sister died when she was 24)

I am so sorry about your sister, at least you are smart enough to know what you don't want. It's a big responsibility and to many people have kids and aren't ready, then they either leave them with a relative or leave them in a field dead. I love my cats to although Ozzie Osbourn is a bad boy, and tore up my new bed, I still love him and would never harm him.

[RootBeer]

This thread it to talk about the tribute show tonight for Michael Jackson and not about Debbie Rowe, Child Molestration, or Drugs. (I think you get my idea, thanks)

Cher, Celine Dion, Smokey Robinson, JC Chasez, Corey Feldman and others on Michael Jackson and the influence he's had on music -- and the world!

Tonight, 9 ET!

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

[Avalon]

you are correct he did go to the hospital with him in the Ambulance and stayed for awhile LE did talk to him. he never ran or hid it was all a bunch of bull out of alot of mouths..for all we know LE told him he could not take his car IIRC he wanted to get a lawyer before he was talked to..and he is cooperating from the report on CNN like 5 minutes ago

Yes, he did go MIA for awhile.....LAPD did a press conference yesterday during which they said they were looking for him. They made sure to say he was not a suspect, but could provide information key to the investigation. So, while he may have answered some cursory questions at the hospital, he was not around when investigators (and the family) wanted more details.

[CinderL.]

I tend to agree, but since she has the right to the two older children, should she fight, she has standing.

Oh boy, that is going to be a battle. I think the Jackson's will continue to pay her to stay back. They have now said they would like her to get to know her children. I think they are starting to get the ball rolling. I think Debbie will take the money.

[GentleBreeze]

you are correct he did go to the hospital with him in the Ambulance and stayed for awhile LE did talk to him. he never ran or hid it was all a bunch of bull out of alot of mouths..for all we know LE told him he could not take his car IIRC he wanted to get a lawyer before he was talked to..and he is cooperating from the report on CNN like 5 minutes ago

I don't think this Doctor did anything intentionally to MJ. Like all the others who seem to know MJ closely he is probably devastated that this happened on his watch and to MJ. He knew who his patient was and what a big deal it would be so I think he was frantic hoping and praying that MJ could be brought back to life.

I think he rode with the EMTs and then went into the hospital with them and MJ and continued working on him. He probably thought he could pick up his car anytime and may have gone to someone else's home nearby. He was never running from the police. From what I have read they had already talked with him at the hospital.

Now could he be negligent in someway if the night before MJ was complaining of chest pains and difficulty breathing? That is going to be hard to prove if the Doctor was the only one with MJ the night before this happened.

imo

[R~O~S]

I didn't know she was the one who wanted the veils.

It would seem a lot of things that were worked up in the tabloids as Micheal's oddities were actually reasonable medical precautions or influenced by outside sources.

[RootBeer]

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13230819#post13230819

I started a seperate thread for the tribute show that is suppose to start in a few minutes.

[legalmania]

Yes, she did do it for the money. Then went back to court and the judge said she still has parental rights. I think.

IMO it's time for her to step up those children are beautiful.

[CinderL.]

Yes, he did go MIA for awhile.....LAPD did a press conference yesterday during which they said they were looking for him. They made sure to say he was not a suspect, but could provide information key to the investigation. So, while he may have answered some cursory questions at the hospital, he was not around when investigators (and the family) wanted more details.

He was probably waiting for his Houston Attnys. to show up.

[*Serenity*]

I also thought it was odd, unless it is has something to do with the vitiligo. :shrug: MOO



Former dermatology nurse, Debbie Rowe met Michael Jackson treating his skin conditions-- perhaps things got worse after she left.

[AlohaRainbow]

I find it so odd that MJ would have skin cancer of all people. As a child he was unable to play out doors and I cant remember Michael not having a long sleeve shirt on when he is outside.

Sometimes I just question the validity to some of these articles when it seems everyone wants to rush out to say something.

imo

not sure if he did have skin cancer (but wouldn't be surprised to learn that he did). ... if he did have vitiligo (which i believe he did), he may have tried uv phototherapy treatments in the early stages
http://www.nvfi.org/pages/info_puva_treatment.php

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/skin_cancer/page2_em.htm

ita with questioning the validity of various articles about celebrities! especially when the celebrity is pretty reclusive, there's lots of speculation

[Tracian]

Oh boy, that is going to be a battle. I think the Jackson's will continue to pay her to stay back. They have now said they would like her to get to know her children. I think they are starting to get the ball rolling. I think Debbie will take the money.


I dunno, take a pittance now, or hold on to the prize for steady 'income'.

I can already hear the claim:

"She was a nobody, your Honor, she couldn't fight the MJ mega machine, and was afraid she would become a target of zealous fans, which would endanger her and her children"

I hope I am wrong about this, but nothing surprises me anymore.

[CinderL.]

IMO it's time for her to step up those children are beautiful.

Well, if she stepped in for the right reasons, that would be fine....but if she just wants another chunk of cash, they are better off if she stays away.

[VC2]

So far, I feel really bad for the guy. We'll see if he had anything to do with the death, ie. injecting him with drugs. But, now I think he is really wishing he had stayed with his practice.

I am sure he is as well. the sense of guilt (reasonable or not) must weigh heavy since he was there, especially since as a cardiologist he knew a portable defib might have helped. Not saying it would have or he should have had one there but i can imagine the "what ifs".

The thing about injecting him with demerol is so long as the dose was within therapeutic guidelines it shouldn't make a difference as far his being "involved" with his death. There have been legitimate reasons for MJ to need pain killers, chronic back pain from when he broke his first vertebra during the pepsi accident as he fell when burned, the sort of rehearsals he was doing could have exacerbated that, lupus symptoms causing pain etc etc.

That is one reason why it might be a huge mess, if he did have a shot of demerol but it was not what would be considered a large overdose. Insurance companies for AEG will be fighting it, his personal insurance company might be, that ends up with the estate fighting back, all because of the gray area.

IMO

[aproudmom]

I find it so odd that MJ would have skin cancer of all people. As a child he was unable to play out doors and I cant remember Michael not having a long sleeve shirt on when he is outside.

Sometimes I just question the validity to some of these articles when it seems everyone wants to rush out to say something.

imo

I am not sure just giving my opinion since I have read it over and over he had something on his nose and then the pic of him leaving a clinic around the same time..so I have no clue..guess it does not matter at this point.I do not think it killed him...here is a pic but they could not even be his hands and they can touch up pics..

http://www.celebitchy.com/2122/does_michael_jackson_have_cancer/

[CinderL.]

I dunno, take a pittance now, or hold on to the prize for steady 'income'.

I can already hear the claim:

"She was a nobody, your Honor, she couldn't fight the MJ mega machine, and was afraid she would become a target of zealous fans, which would endanger her and her children"

I hope I am wrong about this, but nothing surprises me anymore.

I think you are right. That is my take too.

[CinderL.]

I am sure he is as well. the sense of guilt (reasonable or not) must weigh heavy since he was there, especially since as a cardiologist he knew a portable defib might have helped. Not saying it would have or he should have had one there but i can imagine the "what ifs".

The thing about injecting him with demerol is so long as the dose was within therapeutic guidelines it shouldn't make a difference as far his being "involved" with his death. There have been legitimate reasons for MJ to need pain killers, chronic back pain from when he broke his first vertebra during the pepsi accident as he fell when burned, the sort of rehearsals he was doing could have exacerbated that, lupus symptoms causing pain etc etc.

That is one reason why it might be a huge mess, if he did have a shot of demerol but it was not what would be considered a large overdose. Insurance companies for AEG will be fighting it, his personal insurance company might be, that ends up with the estate fighting back, all because of the gray area.

IMO

Or if he gave him the shot, but didn't know if he had taken something else.

[RootBeer]

Sorry, I should of known better than to expect Larry King to only talk about the good stuff. :huh:

He is starting the show with Miko Brando and playing the 911 call. :angry:

[R~O~S]

Well, if she stepped in for the right reasons, that would be fine....but if she just wants another chunk of cash, they are better off if she stays away.

Are you forgetting she's not related to Blanket in any way. I don't think there's a chance on God's green earth any judge is going to split those children up and she has no legitimate claim to the youngest child.

[Avalon]

I think this will just be a re-hash of the stuff we saw last night. Miko's got the same shirt on. Bet Chopra is edited out.

[*Serenity*]

I dunno, take a pittance now, or hold on to the prize for steady 'income'.

I can already hear the claim:

"She was a nobody, your Honor, she couldn't fight the MJ mega machine, and was afraid she would become a target of zealous fans, which would endanger her and her children"

I hope I am wrong about this, but nothing surprises me anymore.


I read yesterday (forget where) that she didn't want full custody back, and then this LA Times articles states she does. For the $$ I would say she will try to get them, not because she wants them on a full time basis though. I also read where she has a bunch of horses and such where she lives. AND of all things after looking at her recent photos she needs to lose some weight. Odd.. I know.. I didn't save that link, however here is the LA Times link.

Also-- this article sates: per MJ that Blanket is his sperm and cannot reveal the donor/surrogate.


Although there is wide speculation that Jackson was not the biological father of Rowe's children, he was the legal father under California law.

Jackson raised his children without their mothers. He said the youngest was conceived with his sperm but that he was barred by contract from disclosing the surrogate's identity.

"Jackson wanted to be the exclusive parent, but kids need a backup," Blumberg said. "People die, so what he did was leave his kids without a parent" who has helped raise them.

Iris Finsilver, a lawyer who represented Rowe in the custody case with Jackson, told the Associated Press that she was certain that Rowe would want custody of her children. She said Rowe was devastated by Jackson's death.

[vonna]

bringing over from the last thread:



wow. just wow. i am almost speechless. I am not going to even try to respond to your post directly but vitiligo IS a disease that causes people to turn white. That is essentially the definition of it, it destroys skin pigment. White people get the disease too but its not as obvious as in black people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo
the link has a picture of a hand "turning white" as you put it.

Tracian ` as far as evenly, it is my understanding that it started in patches like with everyone else, and in fact its why he wore gloves, then turned the "one glove" into part of his persona. All we have ever seen
of his body is his face and hands. His face has always been heavily made up which would even out patches.

IMO

I haven't disputed the fact that the disease exists. I am only disputing the fact that he had it. I'd bet my sandy land farm that he had injections to cause the skin change. He changed everything else about himself that could be identified with being the black man he hated being.

[CinderL.]

Are you forgetting she's not related to Blanket in any way. I don't think there's a chance on God's green earth any judge is going to split those children up and she has no legitimate claim to the youngest child.

No, I didn't forget that, and I think that is a big, big plus for Michael's mother, and the nanny. I hope you are right. I don't think they should be separated.

[AlohaRainbow]

It would seem a lot of things that were worked up in the tabloids as Micheal's oddities were actually reasonable medical precautions or influenced by outside sources.

i remember when it came out and/or was rumored (i don't think it was ever *confirmed*) that he slept in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. although that seems weird/bizarre to most people to do that, hyperbaric oxygen is used as a legitimate medical treatment in wound healing. imo, he might have been using it in hopes it would "treat" his vitilgo. (i think the rumor was that he thought it would keep him young or something)

he had the bucks back then to not have to rely on any medical insurance approving any therapy he wanted to try. i'm sure he got plenty of advice about "alternative" therapies, "off label uses", and theoretical and experimental treatments.

[SDMermaid]

Funny how everyone sticks up for MJ when he screwed many people over to the point they have to sue him to get paid. And Debbie was paid off by MJ how come everyone is ok with him not wanting his kids to have mom???


Why? Please answer. Debbie is a loser mom. Give her "buckerroo"s" and she's gone. I have no problem with how he got his 3 kids, they know love. I think the REAL nanny should raise them. Her love for them might be the only love they feel after their Daddy died. I don't expect old man Joe will contibute anything positive. JMO

[Tracian]

Are you forgetting she's not related to Blanket in any way. I don't think there's a chance on God's green earth any judge is going to split those children up and she has no legitimate claim to the youngest child.


Legally that is not an issue. If Debbie Rowe wants her children, they cannot use the fact that Michael had a child with another woman as an excuse to keep the older two children from their mother.

It would be no different if Michael remarried and his new wife was the mother of the youngest, that does not give her standing to keep the two other children.

California courts are very over protective of the biological parent; to the point of lunacy in some cases.

[CinderL.]

I haven't disputed the fact that the disease exists. I am only disputing the fact that he had it. I'd bet my sandy land farm that he had injections to cause the skin change. He changed everything else about himself that could be identified with being the black man he hated being.

What kind of injections can cause the change to skin color?

[GentleBreeze]

I am not sure just giving my opinion since I have read it over and over he had something on his nose and then the pic of him leaving a clinic around the same time..so I have no clue..guess it does not matter at this point.I do not think it killed him...here is a pic but they could not even be his hands and they can touch up pics..

http://www.celebitchy.com/2122/does_michael_jackson_have_cancer/

Gosh to me the nails looks like he had them painted red and it is wearing away on the tips but his hands seem very red and dry though.

I didn't see any growth on his nose. Is it there and I missed it? lol

imo

[RootBeer]

I am so embarrassed and bummed......

This looks like a rerun from last night. On his website they make it look like it is a new show or maybe I read it wrong.

I feel so dumb.

[legalmania]

Michael I loved watching you dance and loved hearing you sing. I am so sorry for your kids and family. I dedicate this to them. Goodnight all:rose::seeya:

----------------
Now playing: Michael Jackson - Gone Too Soon (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/michael_jackson/track/gone_too_soon)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[aproudmom]

When EMTs arrived at Michael Jackson's home yesterday, the medics wanted to pronounce him dead on the scene -- but Michael's personal doctor refused to let them "call it" -- this according to sources close to the situation.When EMTs arrived there was evidence someone had been performing CPR on Michael for "quite some time." There was evidence of Lidocaine -- an old-school drug that can be used to treat disturbances in the heart's rhythm. Medics took over performing CPR but determined Jackson was lifeless -- and wanted to call the coroner to pick up the body.We're told Jackson was flat-lined when EMTs arrived.

M.J.'s doc demanded EMTs continue performing CPR anyway, and demanded that they take Michael to the hospital. Once they arrived at UCLA, we're told Jackson's doc continued to personally administer CPR -even though it was clear Jackson was already gone.

[VC2]

I also thought it was odd, unless it is has something to do with the vitiligo. :shrug: MOO
vrom the american vitiligo research foundation:
Based on the above results the take home message and recommendation is that patients who have vitiligo should undergo an annual total body examination at their Dermatologists in order to recognise a possible melanoma as early as possible.
www.avrf.org/facts/sun.htm

[RootBeer]

I think this will just be a re-hash of the stuff we saw last night. Miko's got the same shirt on. Bet Chopra is edited out.

You are right, it sure looks like a rerun. I wonder if they will cut Usher out when he comments about how Larry is talking about Michael and his life drama the way he is so soon after his death. That was so cool of Usher, Liza put her hand on his shoulder and agreed when he said that.

[aproudmom]

ok LKL is a repeat..this was on last night

[R~O~S]

i remember when it came out and/or was rumored (i don't think it was ever *confirmed*) that he slept in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. although that seems weird/bizarre to most people to do that, hyperbaric oxygen is used as a legitimate medical treatment in wound healing. imo, he might have been using it in hopes it would "treat" his vitilgo. (i think the rumor was that he thought it would keep him young or something)

he had the bucks back then to not have to rely on any medical insurance approving any therapy he wanted to try. i'm sure he got plenty of advice about "alternative" therapies, "off label uses", and theoretical and experimental treatments.

Funny thing is, that "rumor" came from Micheal!! I was reading it today, it was to drum up air time Captain Eo, a publicity stunt.

http://www.michaeljacksonupdates.com/tag/hyperbaric-chamber/

The Hyperbaric Chamber: Jackson himself helped plant some of the wilder stories about himself. Michael Levine, a prominent Hollywood publicist, has confirmed that he helped Jackson and his manager Frank DiLeo plant a story that Jackson slept in a hyperbaric chamber to help promote Jackson’s film Captain Eo. Jackson’s bid to buy the Elephant Man’s bones was another publicity stunt.

[SDMermaid]

I have to LOL everytime I hear MJ claiming his sperm was used to make his children. Why didn't he just say the truth that he didn't want any of his children to have his genes because he didn't even like they way he looked.

I read yesterday (forget where) that she didn't want full custody back, and then this LA Times articles states she does. For the $$ I would say she will try to get them, not because she wants them on a full time basis though. I also read where she has a bunch of horses and such where she lives. AND of all things after looking at her recent photos she needs to lose some weight. Odd.. I know.. I didn't save that link, however here is the LA Times link.

Also-- this article sates: per MJ that Blanket is his sperm and cannot reveal the donor/surrogate.

[SDMermaid]

This is why I don't feel sorry for some of the stuff that was printed about MJ he asked for it!


Funny thing is, that "rumor" came from Micheal!! I was reading it today, it was to drum up air time Captain Eo, a publicity stunt.

http://www.michaeljacksonupdates.com/tag/hyperbaric-chamber/

[GentleBreeze]

I haven't disputed the fact that the disease exists. I am only disputing the fact that he had it. I'd bet my sandy land farm that he had injections to cause the skin change. He changed everything else about himself that could be identified with being the black man he hated being.

I think he hated being his father's son.

imo

[R~O~S]

Legally that is not an issue. If Debbie Rowe wants her children, they cannot use the fact that Michael had a child with another woman as an excuse to keep the older two children from their mother.

It would be no different if Michael remarried and his new wife was the mother of the youngest, that does not give her standing to keep the two other children.

California courts are very over protective of the biological parent; to the point of lunacy in some cases.

The fact she tried to sever her own parental rights, didn't take advantage of any of the visitation rights she had & testified she hadn't seen them in years sure are.

[CinderL.]

I think he hated being his father's son.

imo

To say that MJ was a complex, strange man, would be an understatement. I don't think he knew what he wanted.

[aproudmom]

I am going to give this doctor some slack until we know everything...at this point we have no idea what he did or did not do that day

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou090626_mh_michael-jackson-houston-doctor.be3e4b2.html

Houston doctor gave up practice for Michael Jackson

It was very surprising to all of us to learn that he was Michael Jackson's physician. He is a very humble man. Very Private. Did not say anything to the community. Did not brag about it,” Johnson said.

In a letter to patients at his Las Vegas clinic dated June 15, obtained by TMZ.com, Murray announced he was ceasing to practice medicine indefinitely for a "once in a lifetime opportunity." That opportunity was the chance to live with Jackson and care for him on his upcoming tour.

[CinderL.]

The fact she tried to sever her own parental rights, didn't take advantage of any of the visitation rights she had & testified she hadn't seen them in years sure are.

But, then she went back to court to have them reinstated. I question why. Did she run out of money? If she goes for custody, it will be very interesting to see how all of this played out. Was she given money continuously, or did MJ give her cash to give up her rights at the beginning? Did she get any cash at all? That would be telling I would think to a judge.

[VC2]

Tracian mentioned she had never seen vitiligo so evenly, this treatment is probably one reason it was. One of the therapies for severe vitiligo (would make sense for his face and hands especially):

Depigmentation. Depigmentation may be an option for you if you have vitiligo that covers more than half of your skin. Depigmentation therapy lightens the unaffected parts of your skin to match the areas that have already turned white. For this treatment, you apply a medication called monobenzene ether of hydroquinone twice a day to the areas of your skin that still have pigment. Treatment continues until the darker areas of your skin match the already-depigmented areas.

Redness and swelling are potential side effects of depigmentation therapy, and you have to be careful to avoid skin-to-skin contact with other people for at least two hours after you've applied the drug, so you don't transfer it to them. Other potential side effects include itching and dry skin.
Depigmentation is permanent and will make you extremely sensitive to sunlight permanently.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitiligo/DS00586/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

[Tracian]

The fact she tried to sever her own parental rights, didn't take advantage of any of the visitation rights she had & testified she hadn't seen them in years sure are.


Not according to the article I linked, that she does have parental rights, and has seen them..


"As I understand it, in later years after a substantial amount of time when Debbie Rowe didn't see those children at all, she started to have a relationship with them again. So she'd certainly be an obvious candidate for custody of those two children."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/06/26/jackson.children.will/index.html


Regardless, I have to disagree. California is very liberal with restoring custody to parents, even when abuse and neglect was proved.

[SDMermaid]

I hope the family comes out later about why MJ needed a doctor living with him if he was "healthy"


I am going to give this doctor some slack until we know everything...at this point we have no idea what he did or did not do that day

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou090626_mh_michael-jackson-houston-doctor.be3e4b2.html

Houston doctor gave up practice for Michael Jackson

It was very surprising to all of us to learn that he was Michael Jackson's physician. He is a very humble man. Very Private. Did not say anything to the community. Did not brag about it,” Johnson said.

In a letter to patients at his Las Vegas clinic dated June 15, obtained by TMZ.com, Murray announced he was ceasing to practice medicine indefinitely for a "once in a lifetime opportunity." That opportunity was the chance to live with Jackson and care for him on his upcoming tour.

[CinderL.]

Tracian mentioned she had never seen vitiligo so evenly, this treatment is probably one reason it was. One of the therapies for severe vitiligo (would make sense for his face and hands especially):



http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitiligo/DS00586/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

Thank you. I will pass this information to my sister-in-law. She has gone to so many Dr.s and they tell her to use make up.

[Tracian]

Tracian mentioned she had never seen vitiligo so evenly, this treatment is probably one reason it was. One of the therapies for severe vitiligo (would make sense for his face and hands especially):



http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitiligo/DS00586/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs


I still don't buy that story, sorry. I know that for many whatever MJ says is the honest truth, nothing but the truth...the fact is that Michael has been doing strange things to himself through plastic surgery for years, since the Pepsi commercial.

His behavior was erratic, to say the least.

The man while talented, perhaps even gifted, had serious issues emotionally and mentally.

[vonna]

What kind of injections can cause the change to skin color?

I don't know but he had the money to pay for them. Perhaps Debbie can explain - or the doctor that gave the injections. The clue is that he changed everything else about himself that wasn't identified with being black. I could have bought the ailment had he emerged spotted - but to have become milky white?? Give me a break.

[CinderL.]

I don't know but he had the money to pay for them. Perhaps Debbie can explain - or the doctor that gave the injections. The clue is that he changed everything else about himself that wasn't identified with being black. I could have bought the ailment had he emerged spotted - but to have become milky white?? Give me a break.

I agree it is strange. Could it have just been make-up?

[aproudmom]

GVS is on and it is not a repeat...Fox

[vonna]

I think he hated being his father's son.

imo

I think you're right. That would be understandable but cannot explain the lengths to which he went to change any resemblance to his family.

[aproudmom]

I agree it is strange. Could it have just been make-up?

I have wondered that also..

[vonna]

ITA but that doesn't make me dislike him. There's a news reporter in Detroit that has it, but so what? They put alot of make up on. I still love Michael's singing and dancing. Why should I hate him and talk bad about an amazing singer and dancer? Maybe DD wanted him, and he's asexual and spurrend her. ICK, rut roh:tongueside:

There are many people whose talents I really admire - but my admiration does not extend to what they do in their private lives. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

The fact she tried to sever her own parental rights, didn't take advantage of any of the visitation rights she had & testified she hadn't seen them in years sure are.

Ya know, I am not a Debbie Rowe fan either, but given what we know about the legalese..the most base employee had to sign before being hired.."Confidentiality Agreements"..you can only wonder what Debbie Rowe had to sign before taking on the role of Mother to children that would be going to Michael..None of us really know the behind the scene rules, contracts, agreements that Debbie no doubt faced..so to judge her for her seemingly abandonnement of her children really is unfair..There are so many stories out there..one just doesnt know what is true..what is smoke and mirrors??..

Unless any of us has walked in shoes she walked..it is rather unfair to assume she cares less about her children...Just maybe she had no choice in the matter??Just maybe?

The more I hear, the more I read and the more I see how some just assume things..as gospel..or lies..or inbetween..I find it rather astonishing how some become so self-righteous..or bash information..without thinking...knee jerk responses..and condemnation for even uttering things..I am amazed..but it has only proven to me that no matter which side you have strongest feelings on..you can bet there will be those that will bash you for those thoughts...Too bad..When emotion enters..rath get handed out like candy...Only I dont eat Candy from strangers..

Once again, I will chill out on this topic..and will re-engage when actual facts emerge..Carry on.and hope all remains cordial..
Salut

LMS

[Tracian]

I found this:


Hydroquinone (BLEACHING agent):
For standard non-hormone induced hyperpigmentations Hydroquinone usually reduces or removes hyperpigmentations very effectively. For the person who do not wish to have expensive or invasive procedures or only has slight hyperpigmentations - hydroquinone can be a good option. However, these products may not be suitable for your needs and they will also take longer than some treatment options. Hydroquinone is a melanin blocker. You may have heard it call d skin bleach but in actuality it prohibits new melanin production as your body goes through natural or chemical-assisted exfoliation. These products can be obtained over the counter in weak strengths or by prescription for your plastic surgeon or dermatologist. Some formulations are even available on the Internet.

Formulations of 4% used to be thought to be the best as irritation would erupt in higher strengths. This has been proven although strengths up to 10% are routinely formulated for patients. However it must be noted that higher strengths of Hydroquinone have caused hydroquinone-induced ochronosis (black speckling in the dermis) in patients with darker skins. And have even been banned in parts of Europe and all throughout Asia due to the belief that higher concentrations are carcinogenic


http://www.yestheyrefake.net/hyperpigmentation.htm#What Is Hyperpigmentation Removal?


It does not seem like a safe and effective treatment, but it is the only thing I can find by googling...

I don't know if he had a disease or he used this, or a combo of both or neither..just offering this information.

[Avalon]

My cousin has vitiligo on his hands and they are VERY uneven and splotchy.

I've given up on the LKL re-run and am watching some version of MTV that's showing the MJ "Bad" mini-film.....directed by Scorsese, huh!....MJ is playing the tough gang type just like the Beat It video, only his face is so plastic by this time, he looks like a girl....and then they keep showing him next to Wesley Snipes, further emphasizing how feminine he looks.

[aproudmom]

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou090627_mh_michael-jackson-houston-doctor.111676ae.html

Jackson cardiologist hires Houston law firm
Houston doctor was with the singer when he collapsed

LOS ANGELES -- The cardiologist who was with Michael Jackson when he died has hired a Houston law firm to represent him in the case.

Dr. Conrad Murray hired Houston attorney Ed Chernoff who flew to Los Angeles Friday night to meet with him. They planned to meet with L.A. police Saturday afternoon.

[VC2]

Thank you. I will pass this information to my sister-in-law. She has gone to so many Dr.s and they tell her to use make up.

YW! at least something good might come out of this tragedy.

[CinderL.]

Ya know, I am not a Debbie Rowe fan either, but given what we know about the legalese..the most base employee had to sign before being hired.."Confidentiality Agreements"..you can only wonder what Debbie Rowe had to sign before taking on the role of Mother to children that would be going to Michael..None of us really know the behind the scene rules, contracts, agreements that Debbie no doubt faced..so to judge her for her seemingly abandonnement of her children really is unfair..There are so many stories out there..one just doesnt know what is true..what is smoke and mirrors??..

Unless any of us has walked in shoes she walked..it is rather unfair to assume she cares less about her children...Just maybe she had no choice in the matter??Just maybe?

The more I hear, the more I read and the more I see how some just assume things..as gospel..or lies..or inbetween..I find it rather astonishing how some become so self-righteous..or bash information..without thinking...knee jerk responses..and condemnation for even uttering things..I am amazed..but it has only proven to me that no matter which side you have strongest feelings on..you can bet there will be those that will bash you for those thoughts...Too bad..When emotion enters..rath get handed out like candy...Only I dont eat Candy from strangers..

Once again, I will chill out on this topic..and will re-engage when actual facts emerge..Carry on.and hope all remains cordial..
Salut

LMS

Yes, it will be interesting. I do wonder what the arrangement was. But, if she signed up with MJ to basically be a surrogate, what right does she have to those kids now?

[R~O~S]

Not according to the article I linked, that she does have parental rights, and has seen them..




http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/06/26/jackson.children.will/index.html


Regardless, I have to disagree. California is very liberal with restoring custody to parents, even when abuse and neglect was proved.

Tried to sever, and testified she hadn't seen them in "years". The judge wouldn't allow it.

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20287918,00.html

During the custody fight between Rowe and Jackson in 2005, Rowe sought to give up her parental rights, and lauded Michael as a good father. Retired Judge Stephen Lachs, who presided over the hearing, at first agreed to terminate them, but then Lachs changed his mind and returned the rights to her.

[CinderL.]

YW! at least something good might come out of this tragedy.

Yes, thanks again. I will tell her. I was so afraid that my boys would get it. So far so good.

[*Serenity*]

I have to LOL everytime I hear MJ claiming his sperm was used to make his children. Why didn't he just say the truth that he didn't want any of his children to have his genes because he didn't even like they way he looked.

The only one I have read about that he claimed was his sperm, was Blanket, not the others with Debbie.

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Yes, it will be interesting. I do wonder what the arrangement was. But, if she signed up with MJ to basically be a surrogate, what right does she have to those kids now?

The difference is she actually married him..unlike the surrogate for child#3 "Blanket"..and unbelieveably..as a spouse who gave birth..she has inherent rights??..Silly thought, eh?

LMS

[Tracian]

Tried to sever, and testified she hadn't seen them in "years". The judge wouldn't allow it.

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20287918,00.html

Again, it really is a non issue. If she wants to seek custody, there is a darn good chance she will get it. Not seeing your children, does not mean she is a danger to them, but according to that link I offered, she has been seeing them.

Time will tell, she may just allow the Grandmother to keep them, and visit or drop off the face of the earth.

[Avalon]

Thanks for the tip about Greta being on.

Not to be flip, but I'd imagine the only people kind of happy about the timing of this tragedy are 1) Mark Sanford, and 2) Jon & Kate.

[GentleBreeze]

My cousin has vitiligo on his hands and they are VERY uneven and splotchy.

I've given up on the LKL re-run and am watching some version of MTV that's showing the MJ "Bad" mini-film.....directed by Scorsese, huh!....MJ is playing the tough gang type just like the Beat It video, only his face is so plastic by this time, he looks like a girl....and then they keep showing him next to Wesley Snipes, further emphasizing how feminine he looks.

A little while ago they had the video on that he did with Vanessa Williams. He has his hair pulled back in a long pony tail. They both looked beautiful in that video.

Then I read on line that even in 2003 MJ only weighed 120 pounds. He really has always been extremely lean.

imo

[R~O~S]

Again, it really is a non issue. If she wants to seek custody, there is a darn good chance she will get it. Not seeing your children, does not mean she is a danger to them, but according to that link I offered, she has been seeing them.

Time will tell, she may just allow the Grandmother to keep them, and visit or drop off the face of the earth.

As soon as the inevitable paycheck is cut, she'll be gone with the wind. Just like every other time she's crawled out from under a rock.

& again, I don't believe for a minute any court will split those children up.

[CinderL.]

Again, it really is a non issue. If she wants to seek custody, there is a darn good chance she will get it. Not seeing your children, does not mean she is a danger to them, but according to that link I offered, she has been seeing them.

Time will tell, she may just allow the Grandmother to keep them, and visit or drop off the face of the earth.

For enough money, If they have it, I think she may go away.

[CinderL.]

Thanks for the tip about Greta being on.

Not to be flip, but I'd imagine the only people kind of happy about the timing of this tragedy are 1) Mark Sanford, and 2) Jon & Kate.
I agree. Well, maybe not Jon and Kate.

[VC2]

If there is one person around Michael Jackson whose honesty i completely trust it is Dr. Deepak Chopra. The day he died when interviewed by Wolf Blitzer, he stated that MJ did have vitiligo and lupus. I had not heard of the lupus before myself. he didn't say allegedly, he didn't say perhaps, and they even spent the night in the same hotel room in romania (that i know for sure bc he flew over to visit with his son who MJ took on the tour with him and said that after the concert they just went back to the hotel suite and talked and watched movies) The kids have spent the night with him, the family have visited each other, and i would never question Dr. Chopra's honesty. I am sure he recognizes vitiligo when he sees it.

IMO

[Tracian]

The only one I have read about that he claimed was his sperm, was Blanket, not the others with Debbie.


In California, perhaps in other states too, but here, for sure:

If a man is married to the woman, and she gets pregnant, he is the presumed father. Only two people can contest it, one is the mother, and of course the father.


Case Law Development: Former spouse granted presumed father status to challenge whether he is the actual father
Former husband presented sufficient evidence to show he might qualify as presumed father of ex-wife's son where he was named as father on child's birth certificate, acknowledged his paternity, and received child into his home. Adult child stated in his declaration that presumed father always held himself out as his father, supported him emotionally and financially his whole life, and visited or vacationed with him and his ex-wife frequently. In addition, the presumed father's ex-wife said in declaration that she continued marital relationship with him for many years despite their divorce, with former spouse providing financial support for her and her children


http://oc-divorce.typepad.com/california_divorce_and_fa/2007/01/fomer_spouse_gr.html


This is how MJ is the father of the two older children regardless of DNA...according to CA law, he is the presumed father.

[Tracian]

As soon as the inevitable paycheck is cut, she'll be gone with the wind. Just like every other time she's crawled out from under a rock.

& again, I don't believe for a minute any court will split those children up.

To your first point, you are most likely right.

As to your second...it has been done time and time again...

[GentleBreeze]

The difference is she actually married him..unlike the surrogate for child#3 "Blanket"..and unbelieveably..as a spouse who gave birth..she has inherent rights??..Silly thought, eh?

LMS

If Michael has left a Will and I think he did then the court will put much weight into who he wanted to care for his three children.

The main factor to me is imo no Judge is going to want to separate these three children who have always been together especially when there are family members willing and wanting all three children.

Just because Rowe is the bio mom doesn't mean the Judge will think it is in the best interest of the children if the two lives with her now. The two older children are also old enough to let their voices be heard. I don't think the Judge wants these children to be traumatized anymore than they already are by losing their father.

Personally I would like to see Grace be given custody.

imo

[Tracian]

If Michael has left a Will and I think he did then the court will put much weight into who he wanted to care for his three children.

The main factor to me is imo no Judge is going to want to separate these three children who have always been together especially when there are family members willing and wanting all three children.

Just because Rowe is the bio mom doesn't mean the Judge will think it is in the best interest of the children if the two lives with her now. The two older children are also old enough to let their voices be heard. I don't think the Judge wants these children to be traumatized anymore than they already are by losing their father.

Personally I would like to see Grace be given custody.

imo


Courts are notorious for traumatizing children, baby Jessica comes to mind, being ripped away from her adoptive parents to be given 'back' to her biological parents...there was another case similar around the same time frame.

It is wrong, but for some reason, courts tend to want the biological parents to regain/retain custody in more cases than not regardless of the possible damage emotional or physical to the children.

[Avalon]

Well, Greta's interview with MJ friend Bryan Stoller was interesting. Hadn't seen him before. Saw MJ two months ago and said he didn't look like he was taking care of himself. Was so skinny, Bryan suspected he might be anorexic. Also he had a sensitive stomach -- many foods didn't agree with him. People, these are classic signs of drug addiction. No appetite....emaciated. Just sayin'.

[aproudmom]

I really can not stand this guy if you want to call him that..he makes me sick and has for several years...:ohmy: guess he thought no one would save what he wrote first and hurried up and changed it when he saw MJ was dead...:mad:

http://www.hollywoodgrind.com/perez-hilton-reports-michael-jackson-fakes-his-death/

We knew something like this would happen!!

Michael Jackson was taken by ambulance from his Holmby Hills home to a nearby Los Angeles hospital on Thursday afternoon!!

Supposedly, the singer went into cardiac arrest and the paramedics had to administer CPR!!!

His mother is even on the way to visit him!!!

We are dubious!!

Jacko pulled a similar stunt when he was getting ready for his big HBO special in ‘95 when he “collapsed” at rehearsal!

He was dragging his heels on that just like his upcoming 50 date London residency at the 02 Arena, of which he already postponed the first few dates!!!

Either he’s lying or making himself sick, but we’re curious to see if he’s able to go on!!!

Get your money back, ticket holders!!!!”


After learning that Michael Jackson really was dead, Perez changed his posting to read:

Michael Jackson was taken by ambulance from his Holmby Hills home to a nearby Los Angeles hospital on Thursday afternoon!!

The singer went into cardiac arrest and the paramedics had to administer CPR!!!

His mother is even on the way to visit him!!!

[SDMermaid]

To all the Debbie haters MJ limited her visits with her children:cursing: The more I learn about this the more I dislike him his music was great but as a person he just is way to weird too not want his kids to have a mother! He had one why would he be so selfish to deny his kids a mother!

Rowe - Jackson Marriage:
Michael Jackson's November 15, 1996 marriage to Debbie Rowe, a former nurse, age 37, took place at a hotel suite in Sydney, Australia. She knew Jackson for 15 years before they were married, and was apparently six months pregnant at the time of their marriage.

Although she also cited irreconcilable differences as a reason for their divorce in 1999, on 4/27/05 she testified at the Michael Jackson trial that "[we] never shared a home; we never shared an apartment."

She also stated that she had not seen her children in more than two years. Debbie had been limited to seeing her children only every 45 days, and then for only eight hours under the supervision of a nanny.

After her divorce, she received a $1 million home in Beverly Hills, but had to sign a confidentiality agreement stating that she couldn't speak to the press or anyone in the public about "Michael, the children or our lives together."

http://marriage.about.com/cs/celebritymarriages/p/michaeljackson.htm

[vonna]

We need to disagree with respect, I disagree:tonguewag

Were you in his private life to call him guilty BARD?

A difference of opinion is what makes a horse race.

[VC2]

I seen him too, and believe him. He was upset that Michael asked him for pain pills. I'm alittle iffy on the skin thing. It happened to fast. What dr said he has lupus?

Dr. Deepak Chopra. Deepak is a physician as well

[aproudmom]

does anyone know just why the family had a falling out MJ and JJ used to be so close..

[aproudmom]

I seen him too, and believe him. He was upset that Michael asked him for pain pills. I'm alittle iffy on the skin thing. It happened to fast. What dr said he has lupus?

I also read he had lupus but would have to search for the link it did not name a doctor though..

[GentleBreeze]

To all the Debbie haters MJ limited her visits with her children:cursing: The more I learn about this the more I dislike him his music was great but as a person he just is way to weird too not want his kids to have a mother! He had one why would he be so selfish to deny his kids a mother!

Rowe - Jackson Marriage:
Michael Jackson's November 15, 1996 marriage to Debbie Rowe, a former nurse, age 37, took place at a hotel suite in Sydney, Australia. She knew Jackson for 15 years before they were married, and was apparently six months pregnant at the time of their marriage.

Although she also cited irreconcilable differences as a reason for their divorce in 1999, on 4/27/05 she testified at the Michael Jackson trial that "[we] never shared a home; we never shared an apartment."

She also stated that she had not seen her children in more than two years. Debbie had been limited to seeing her children only every 45 days, and then for only eight hours under the supervision of a nanny.

After her divorce, she received a $1 million home in Beverly Hills, but had to sign a confidentiality agreement stating that she couldn't speak to the press or anyone in the public about "Michael, the children or our lives together."

http://marriage.about.com/cs/celebritymarriages/p/michaeljackson.htm

In her interview back a few years ago she was very matter of fact. She is not the one that wanted these children in the first place. She said she had them for Michael because she knew Michael would make a very good father.

[vonna]

We need to disagree with respect, I disagree:tonguewag

Were you in his private life to call him guilty BARD?

No. Were YOU????

[GentleBreeze]

Dr. Deepak Chopra. Deepak is a physician as well

He is a lovely man. Always so gracious.

imo

[aproudmom]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonnie-fuller/the-real-reason-for-micha_b_221825.html

according to his Wikipedia autobiography and as it turns out -- lupus sufferers frequently die in their 40s and 50's from sudden heart attacks, caused by atherosclerosis.

Lupus causes inflammation in many of the body's organs including the arteries of the heart. The inflamed arteries then cause cholesterol to deposit on their walls.These deposits cause scarring, and the whole process primes lupus victims to have massive heart attacks, which are often asymptomatic beforehand.

Sources: Michael Jackson's Nanny Doesn't Have Lupus -- He Does
Tuesday, October 09, 2007
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300342,00.html

[VC2]

To all the Debbie haters MJ limited her visits with her children:cursing: The more I learn about this the more I dislike him his music was great but as a person he just is way to weird too not want his kids to have a mother! He had one why would he be so selfish to deny his kids a mother!

Rowe - Jackson Marriage:
Michael Jackson's November 15, 1996 marriage to Debbie Rowe, a former nurse, age 37, took place at a hotel suite in Sydney, Australia. She knew Jackson for 15 years before they were married, and was apparently six months pregnant at the time of their marriage.

Although she also cited irreconcilable differences as a reason for their divorce in 1999, on 4/27/05 she testified at the Michael Jackson trial that "[we] never shared a home; we never shared an apartment."

She also stated that she had not seen her children in more than two years. Debbie had been limited to seeing her children only every 45 days, and then for only eight hours under the supervision of a nanny.

After her divorce, she received a $1 million home in Beverly Hills, but had to sign a confidentiality agreement stating that she couldn't speak to the press or anyone in the public about "Michael, the children or our lives together."

http://marriage.about.com/cs/celebritymarriages/p/michaeljackson.htm

umm this is even better:
Pictures of her beloved 'babies' cover the yellowing walls of Debbie Rowe's remote home. There are favourite snapshots, framed portraits and even paintings which perfectly capture their expressions of innocence.......
Indeed, there is not even a single, grainy snapshot of either Prince Michael, now ten, or Paris, nine, the children taken from her arms in the maternity ward in exchange for a multi-million-pound pay-off.(the pictures were all of her dogs and horses she breeds. Really bizarre to hear her talk about how she cant give away the foals, she has to give them to a trainer first considering she gave away her children)

or how about this?
Incredibly, it is not the memory of the bloodied newborn being torn from her arms which moves Rowe to tears now - but the sudden admission that she couldn't bear Jackson any more children.

She bursts into tears and, sobbing loudly, says: "I had so many problems when I was pregnant with Paris. After that I couldn't have any more children. Michael was upset about that, he couldn't understand it. He wanted more babies."

or this?:
In 2006, Rowe took him to court, petitioning for her parental rights to be restored - despite her previous insistence that they should be withheld - and complaining that Jackson had stopped paying her. He claimed she had breached their confidentiality agreement - but a new settlement was reached in secret.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html

[aproudmom]

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288069,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

Jackson Family Issues Statement to Fans

[VC2]

does anyone know just why the family had a falling out MJ and JJ used to be so close..

maybe bc Joe beat him and abused him as a child?
imo

[RootBeer]

Jackson Family Issues Statement to Fans
Originally posted Saturday June 27, 2009 06:15 PM EDT

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288069,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

The Jackson family issued a statement Saturday, conveyed by family patriarch Joseph Jackson. In full, it reads:

In one of the darkest moments of our lives we find it hard to find the words appropriate to this sudden tragedy we all had to encounter. Our beloved son, brother and father of three children has gone so unexpectedly, in such a tragic way and much too soon. It leaves us, his family, speechless and devastated to a point, where communication with the outside world seems almost impossible at times.

We miss Michael endlessly, our pain cannot be described in words. But Michael would not want us to give up now. So we want to thank all of his faithful supporters and loyal fans worldwide, you – who Michael loved so much. Please do not despair, because Michael will continue to live on in each and every one of you. Continue to spread his message, because that is what he would want you to do. Carry on, so his legacy will live forever.

In addition, Joseph Jackson wishes to personally convey: "My grandchildren are deeply moved by all the love and support you have shown for them and their father, Michael Jackson."

Joseph Jackson & Family

[aproudmom]

http://www.people.com/people/news/0,,,00.html

Deepak Chopra: Michael Jackson Had Lupus

Spiritual teacher and medical doctor Deepak Chopra tells PEOPLE that his longtime friend Michael Jackson suffered from lupus, an autoimmune disease, and a skin disorder for many years.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.people.com/people/news/0,,,00.html

Deepak Chopra: Michael Jackson Had Lupus

Spiritual teacher and medical doctor Deepak Chopra tells PEOPLE that his longtime friend Michael Jackson suffered from lupus, an autoimmune disease, and a skin disorder for many years.

So it seems Michael has been very sick for years and no one believed it.

How tragic.

imo

[VC2]

Lots of stars and celebrities have a very personal relationship with Dr. Deepak Chopra. I have to wonder if they are rethinking their confidences now.

He should not have related that information, IMO. My respect for Deepak Chopra has been shattered.

slick, he didn't give out anything that was not already public knowledge. Except some of the addiction information but i felt that was in a very loving way.

I heard about the lupus from him but it had been in the public before, just since i am not a "fan" per se of MJ's i hadn't read it. MJ himself has discussed his vitiligo publicly. My only point was that as a physician he would recognize it, and considering how close the two families were - mj and his - he had the opportunity to recognize it. As far as the info about his children spending sleep overs at MJ's and son going on tour, it was in response to wolf asking about the molestation/pedophile allegations. He said his behavior was absolutely fine with the children and he had no problem whatsoever with his kids being there and his kids had told him there was nothing bad or even odd when they slept over, he did not believe the allegations whatsoever.

His comments were a defense of Michael. Did you read the tribute he wrote to him?

IMO

ETA and he stayed extremely quiet during the trial which was good bc MJ had someone he could count on who was not "wanting" something from him or had an agenda.

[FallenAngel♥]

Well hopefully that can put to rest that MJ did not have vitilligo but bleached his skin. Also explains why he wore so much makeup. :rose:

did you read the article?

[VC2]

Here is his Tribute to Michael

Michael Jackson will be remembered, most likely, as a shattered icon, a pop genius who wound up a mutant of fame. That's not who I will remember, however. His mixture of mystery, isolation, indulgence, overwhelming global fame, and personal loneliness was intimately known to me. For twenty years I observed every aspect, and as easy as it was to love Michael -- and to want to protect him -- his sudden death yesterday seemed almost fated.
continues at the link with much more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/a-tribute-to-my-friend-mi_b_221268.html

[aproudmom]

OMG have you guys seen this..I am shocked they did not run into the hospital

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/entertainment/Michael+Jackson+Dies+Aged+50-68575.html

[aproudmom]

Here is his Tribute to Michael


continues at the link with much more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/a-tribute-to-my-friend-mi_b_221268.html

I just read it... it is 2 pages IIRC

[True2Blues]

No. Were YOU????

I wasn't there either, but I know that an innocent person has no need to pay off anyone, and MJ paid off more than one family after abusing a child.

[aproudmom]

Police 'seize material' from Jackson house

Oxman said: "I did warn him about the drugs, but I am sorry I didn't warn him enough. I am going to wait until I get the toxicology report, and if his death has something to do with drugs, I am prepared to name names of doctors who prescribed them."

http://uk.real.com/video/browse/showbiz/2179/-stories-page-1/

[VC2]

So it seems Michael has been very sick for years and no one believed it.

How tragic.

imo

I always believed it, maybe because i wasn't a huge fan of his music. Don't get me wrong, i recognized his genius and his talent but it just wasn't my sort of music so i never listened to it in the 80s and 90s. So to me i didn't follow all the rumors etc closely, i just knew that vitiligo made perfect sense and also explained the one glove he was known for if lesions had started in that hand..turning the glove into a signature but also covering the lesions.

He also appeared like someone with autoimmune disorders, got sick frequently, had good periods and bad (lupus), pain, and i never ever believed he walked around with an umbrella in sunny weather as some sort of eccentricity so again back to vitiligo. Maybe because almost all of my cats have an auto immune disease-feline herpes, it was rampant in the feral colony around me and caused 2ndry issues, albeit mild except for Big boy who is FIV+, i recognize the the symptoms of taking extra precautions when something seems minor etc. or treating aggressively, or someone with a cold bed bound for 2 weeks...stuff like that. If they were human they would wear masks during flu season too!

IMO

[4Life]

MJs bio is on the biography channel right now
Mostly about his singing career
Liza, Gladys Knight and others speaking

[RootBeer]

MJs bio is on the biography channel right now
Mostly about his singing career
Liza, Gladys Knight and others speaking

Thanks, watching it now....

[4Life]

Thanks 4Life -- it is also labeled new which means it has been updated. Description says it will contain exclusive info .......

Thanks, didn't read the description
Gladys looks pretty good

[FallenAngel♥]

I didn't know about the Lupus but I always believed the Vittiligo because of the tell tale spots on his fingers, hands and chest. I have an African American friend with it but she does wonders with makeup. Maybe now the rumor that he bleached his skin can be put to rest. :(

Did you read the post you posted a few minutes ago?
Well hopefully that can put to rest that MJ did not have vitilligo but bleached his skin. Also explains why he wore so much makeup

[FallenAngel♥]

I have no doubt MJ had vitilligo . You could tell my how when it first started off his face and hands were splatchy.

[4Life]

Gladys is one of those women who age gracefully. Heck she looks better than she did 20 years ago. :)

I was thinking the same

[4Life]

Susan just said MJ lost all his freedom at the age of 9
Wow I still can't get over how good Gladys Knight looks. She has to be 63?

[aproudmom]

guess some of the fans were not so happy with the push back date in fear they would never see MJ on tour, I am sure he was being pushed to get on stage with all the people being so angry..I am sure they are shocked and sad now they will never see him..

Furious Michael Jackson fans spoke of their disappointment today after the first four shows of his sell-out London residency were delayed.

The first concert at the O2 Arena was pushed back five days to 13 July, but around 60,000 fans who fought to get tickets for the following three shows will now have to wait until March 2010 to see their idol

Fans who fear they may now never see the pop superstar are angry with promoters AEG Live for delaying three of the opening gigs by eight months rather than moving all 50 of the concerts back.

AEG Live, which owns the O2, denied that the rescheduled dates were anything to do with reports that Jackson is suffering from skin cancer.

But there were claims that the singer was today set to have surgery to remove potentially life-threatening skin growths.



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23696359-details/First+four+Michael+Jackson+tour+dates+put+back/article.do

[True2Blues]

Please take a moment to read this article.

So why did Michael Jackson opt to settle the civil lawsuit? According to legal secretary Geraldine Hughes, the civil trial was scheduled to precede the criminal trial, which would have been a violation of Jackson’s constitutional right to not self-incriminate. This, Hughes contends, prompted Jackson’s lawyers to advise him to settle the case.

Consistent with Hughes’ explanation, court documents show that Jackson's lawyers filed a motion in 1994 asking for the civil proceedings to be stayed until after the criminal case was resolved; had their request been granted, any potential settlement would have been negotiated after the criminal trial was over. The motion, however, was denied.

Hughes describes the implications that would have resulted from the judge’s refusal to postpone the civil proceedings. “There was the threat of Michael Jackson having to face double jeopardy in having to defend himself in the criminal case as well as the civil case, even though the law is clearly designed to prevent a defendant from having to be tried twice on the same issue at the same time.”

Jackson's lawyers filed another motion in 1994 asking for the District Attorney to be blocked from obtaining evidence used in the civil proceedings, a request that was also rejected. Hughes explains, “The District Attorney's office was also laying in wait to utilize the information that was going to be uncovered or revealed in the civil lawsuit for use in their criminal investigation.”

Had Jackson not settled the civil case, he would have put his defense strategy in jeopardy by revealing his exculpatory evidence to the prosecution months before the criminal case went to trial.

http://surftofind.com/seminal1

Thank you. I've read a great deal about Jackson over the years. I believe what the children he molested said, and I believe that an innocent man would never pay off people to stifle an accusation like that if it weren't true. If he had truly had exculpatory evidence, it would have been shouted from the rooftops. If there's one thing MJ knew about, it was how to generate huge amounts of publicity.

[emdragon]

I wasn't there either, but I know that an innocent person has no need to pay off anyone, and MJ paid off more than one family after abusing a child.

Actually celebs pay off people often just to save themselves the time,money and headaches. At the time Jackson had more money than he had brains to know how to use it. It meant nothing to him, not spending time tied up in court was more valuable to him than money.

At the time I thought the payoff proved guilt but now I'm not so sure. What parent takes money to ignore damage to their child?
The allegations had been being made for years and the family very well could have seen a payday...

I'm having a problem with no other victims going public after the trial.

You have only your opinion when you say he abused kids because we do not know that as a fact.

(I am interested to see if some of the lips paid to be sealed will now be able to speak.)

I don't know if he was a pedophile, but I do know he put himself in the position to make it look like he was and no one close to him stopped him.

He had talent but he wasn't the end all be all of music and he wasn't the only artist with illnesses- this whole fragile special treatment that the man got is pathetic some one needed to tell him to suck it up.

(watching the We are the World video set me off a bit today- watched "do they know it is Christmas" first as it was done first and was the idea and cause of Bob Geldof. the UK artists all meshed well, there was no one given a "spot light" in the video, each had their part. But watch WATW and you notice first that the entire set up is exactly like the band Aid video the year before- then you see special attention and screen time to MJ in his Royal outfit making it look like he was the king and everyone else his minions. I has always bothered me that MJ gets all the credit for that video when he didn't do it alone and infact didn't even have the idea himself- will say he had Bob G in the video and that showed he had some respect acknowledging him even in that small way.)

OK see why he drove people crazy? He would do such ire raising things, he'd be self indulgent and pompous and then he would turn around and do something selfless--- do we love him or hate him... "Tis a Puzzlement

[aproudmom]

sorry so many links but I love google..lol..here is a video and some pics of him and his dancers

Michael Jackson prepares dancers for London gigs

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23694638-details/Michael+Jackson+prepares+dancers+for+London+gigs/article.do

[4Life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTc1nwk5WFI


IMO he looks pretty good

[4Life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_256XQiS1X8

[4Life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SXXBfaai7I

[True2Blues]

Actually celebs pay off people often just to save themselves the time,money and headaches. At the time Jackson had more money than he had brains to know how to use it. It meant nothing to him, not spending time tied up in court was more valuable to him than money.

At the time I thought the payoff proved guilt but now I'm not so sure. What parent takes money to ignore damage to their child?
The allegations had been being made for years and the family very well could have seen a payday...

I'm having a problem with no other victims going public after the trial.

You have only your opinion when you say he abused kids because we do not know that as a fact.

(I am interested to see if some of the lips paid to be sealed will now be able to speak.)

I don't know if he was a pedophile, but I do know he put himself in the position to make it look like he was and no one close to him stopped him.

He had talent but he wasn't the end all be all of music and he wasn't the only artist with illnesses- this whole fragile special treatment that the man got is pathetic some one needed to tell him to suck it up.

(watching the We are the World video set me off a bit today- watched "do they know it is Christmas" first as it was done first and was the idea and cause of Bob Geldof. the UK artists all meshed well, there was no one given a "spot light" in the video, each had their part. But watch WATW and you notice first that the entire set up is exactly like the band Aid video the year before- then you see special attention and screen time to MJ in his Royal outfit making it look like he was the king and everyone else his minions. I has always bothered me that MJ gets all the credit for that video when he didn't do it alone and infact didn't even have the idea himself- will say he had Bob G in the video and that showed he had some respect acknowledging him even in that small way.)

OK see why he drove people crazy? He would do such ire raising things, he'd be self indulgent and pompous and then he would turn around and do something selfless--- do we love him or hate him... "Tis a Puzzlement

I give MJ credit for having guts to stand up, if he were innocent and prove it. Instead he tried to cover it up, believing that his celebrity status entitled him to do whatever he wanted, to whoever he wanted, and his money would allow him to make it go away. There's a lot of that around out there.

I truly believe he was a child molester, and I hate to think what his children may have been exposed to when his access to other people's children was cut off.

I grew up listening to Michael Jackson and was a fan, and it was a terrible thing to think about someone you seem to have known all your life. It had to be proven to me, (celebrities are targets) and it was. And yes, that is just my own opinion, that's true.

As with so many, his celebrity got him out of it. Since then, I can't bear to listen to his music. Being able to sing and dance doesn't make a molester anything else, they're still child molesters.

Unlike a lot of people, I don't find musical talent excuses sexual abuse of children. To me it isn't something that can just be pushed aside as unimportant, it doesn't get more despicable than that. No abuse in childhood excuses a person from becoming a predator and making victims of their own. I guess it just depends on personal priorities.

It's those poor children I feel for. If he was raised in an abusive home (and I believe he was, he isn't the only one who claimed it), then I fear for the children if they are left in the custody of those same people. On the other hand, there's the mother who didn't want the first two. I think they're all of them money grubbing and after those three innocent children for the $$$ they think will come with them.

It's like holding those poor kids over a shark tank.

[Mr. Moto2]

ITA. It bothers me so much that all the negative info on the trial is out there but no one reports the facts that dispute it. :rose:

I agree. Still, MJ should have learned his lesson, and not have dealt with any more opportunistic strangers. Not to mention going on TV and talking about sharing his bed.

[CinderL.]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonnie-fuller/the-real-reason-for-micha_b_221825.html

according to his Wikipedia autobiography and as it turns out -- lupus sufferers frequently die in their 40s and 50's from sudden heart attacks, caused by atherosclerosis.

Lupus causes inflammation in many of the body's organs including the arteries of the heart. The inflamed arteries then cause cholesterol to deposit on their walls.These deposits cause scarring, and the whole process primes lupus victims to have massive heart attacks, which are often asymptomatic beforehand.

Sources: Michael Jackson's Nanny Doesn't Have Lupus -- He Does
Tuesday, October 09, 2007
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300342,00.html

A friend of mine who has lupus said you can have a skin type of lupus, which she has, or you can internal lupus. Don't know.

[aproudmom]

Nanny tells of Jackson drug illness

Michael Jackson had his stomach pumped "many times" having taken a mixture of prescription drugs, his children's nanny has said.

Grace Rwaramba, 42, said the singer had no idea about money and - towards the end of his life - was increasingly influenced by the Nation of Islam sect.

She told the Sunday Times: "I had to pump his stomach many times. He always mixed so much of it."

She said: "There was one period that was so bad that I didn't let the children see him. He always ate too little and mixed too much."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23712940-details/Nanny+tells+of+Jackson+drug+illness/article.do

Jackson himself was left fuming after concert promoters booked 50 gigs.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23712357-details/LAPD+search+for+doctor+after+Michael+Jackson%27s+d eath/article.do

He told fans on his website this month: “I don't know how I'm going to do 50 shows. I'm not a big eater — I need to put some weight on.

“I'm really angry with them booking me up to do 50 shows. I only wanted to do 10, and take the tour around the world to other cities, not 50 in one place. I went to bed knowing I sold 10 dates, and woke up to the news I was booked to do 50.”

Granny and nanny in battle for custody of his three children
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23712609-details/Grief-stricken+family+tell+of+their+love+for+the+‘legend ’/article.do
Michael's mother Katherine wants the kids,” said Stacey Brown, family friend and co-author of Michael Jackson Behind the Mask. “But Michael always said he wants Grace Rwaramba, the nanny, to have them if something happened to him.”

[Mr. Moto2]

No doubt he brought much of it on himself -- very poor judgement. :(

I think he was just stubborn, and didn't listen to the people around him. Of course, the people around him didn't push it too much - they were there to coddle him.

[emdragon]

I give MJ credit for having guts to stand up, if he were innocent and prove it. Instead he tried to cover it up, believing that his celebrity status entitled him to do whatever he wanted, to whoever he wanted, and his money would allow him to make it go away. There's a lot of that around out there.

I truly believe he was a child molester, and I hate to think what his children may have been exposed to when his access to other people's children was cut off.

I grew up listening to Michael Jackson and was a fan, and it was a terrible thing to think about someone you seem to have known all your life. It had to be proven to me, (celebrities are targets) and it was. And yes, that is just my own opinion, that's true.

As with so many, his celebrity got him out of it. Since then, I can't bear to listen to his music. Being able to sing and dance doesn't make a molester anything else, they're still child molesters.

Unlike a lot of people, I don't find musical talent excuses sexual abuse of children. To me it isn't something that can just be pushed aside as unimportant, it doesn't get more despicable than that. No abuse in childhood excuses a person from becoming a predator and making victims of their own. I guess it just depends on personal priorities.

It's those poor children I feel for. If he was raised in an abusive home (and I believe he was, he isn't the only one who claimed it), then I fear for the children if they are left in the custody of those same people. On the other hand, there's the mother who didn't want the first two. I think they're all of them money grubbing and after those three innocent children for the $$$ they think will come with them.

It's like holding those poor kids over a shark tank.

You can't prove a negative.
Once accused there is nothing that will ever clear your name 100% with everyone..people will always think like you do.
I believe the evidence and unfortunately there wasn't any and there have been no other accusations since the trial- that says a lot to me because I believe in fact and logic and both of those tell me if he was a prolific pedophile there would be at least one victim who refuses to stay silent or be bought off.

[True2Blues]

Nanny tells of Jackson drug illness

Michael Jackson had his stomach pumped "many times" having taken a mixture of prescription drugs, his children's nanny has said.

Grace Rwaramba, 42, said the singer had no idea about money and - towards the end of his life - was increasingly influenced by the Nation of Islam sect.

She told the Sunday Times: "I had to pump his stomach many times. He always mixed so much of it."

She said: "There was one period that was so bad that I didn't let the children see him. He always ate too little and mixed too much."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23712940-details/Nanny+tells+of+Jackson+drug+illness/article.do

<Respectfully Snipped>

What a he!! of an atmosphere to raise children in.

[who_is_it]

He didn't molest any children. The trial of lies that people have believed tore his heart and ripped his soul which I believe led to his untimely demise.

<snipped>



Totally my opinion... and the "court of the media" convicted him with a life sentence.

[True2Blues]

You can't prove a negative.
Once accused there is nothing that will ever clear your name 100% with everyone..people will always think like you do.
I believe the evidence and unfortunately there wasn't any and there have been no other accusations since the trial- that says a lot to me because I believe in fact and logic and both of those tell me if he was a prolific pedophile there would be at least one victim who refuses to stay silent or be bought off.

We all have our own opinions, that's what keeps life interesting.

[aproudmom]

I'm really enjoying the MTV documentary. They are showing the full videos with biographical commentary before and after. Very minimal interuption in the videos.

I am flipping channels..right now watching Greta and MTV

[who_is_it]

No doubt he brought much of it on himself -- very poor judgement. Just for the record though Martin Bashir edited that tape - it came out during the trial and as a result some of his statements were taken out of context.
<snipped>



Apart from the essential of the Bashir "documentary" - that the Arvizo boys slept in his room - it was a "documentary" with evil intention ("" because it's no factual documentary imo but biased). For example he once went shopping with Michael and asked the shop assistant several times how much Michael spent. The shop assistant refused to reply. You could feel Bashir's envy.

Michael said he suffered from his looks and entrusted him his vulnerability but Bashir pressurized him to give answers on questions about plastic surgery.

Bashir was convinced the sleep overs weren't correct... but if I have a bad opinion about someone I wouldn't continue to exploit the person to make money.

[aproudmom]

You can't prove a negative.
Once accused there is nothing that will ever clear your name 100% with everyone..people will always think like you do.
I believe the evidence and unfortunately there wasn't any and there have been no other accusations since the trial- that says a lot to me because I believe in fact and logic and both of those tell me if he was a prolific pedophile there would be at least one victim who refuses to stay silent or be bought off.

I think and I also have heard his friends and some family members tell him to stay away from young boys and he said no there was nothing wrong with them sleeping in his bed..so alot felt someone who was accused of a horrible crime but then make statements like MJ did he IMO kinda kept that black cloud over himself..I do not know what happened he was found not guilty by a court of law..so I am just talking out loud

I have and always will say OJ is a murderer that got off...so some are found NG and it does not matter..in OJ case I know he did it without a doubt...MJ I am not so sure I think someone found someone with a heart of a child and jumped on it and screamed molestation..all JMO

[who_is_it]

guess some of the fans were not so happy with the push back date in fear they would never see MJ on tour, I am sure he was being pushed to get on stage with all the people being so angry..I am sure they are shocked and sad now they will never see him..

Furious Michael Jackson fans spoke of their disappointment today after the first four shows of his sell-out London residency were delayed.

<snipped>


Many people can't take off whenever they want to. Furthermore some of the fans probably have booked flights. I would have been angry about the delay, too.

It's not too far for me..., I planned to go there but as I was unsure if the concerts take place I wanted to wait and get a ticket by ebay.

Maybe one week before Michael's death I thought I MUST go there. Shockingly I also thought: You don't know how long he's still alive. Since 2005 I wanted to see Michael Jackson once in person.

I can't express how devastated I am.

I was out now (time difference!) and they've played a lot of Michael Jackson songs. I couldn't enjoy. I'm so sad about his death.

[Mayasmimi]

Watching MTV. Had completely forgotten how he could cross the line from Soul to Rock. I really forgot Dirty Diana. Amazing stuff.

[CinderL.]

Yeah it was the Court of the Media along with some naysayers, some among us, who were determined to bring him down at ANY cost. MJ was fair game to anyone with holes in their pockets.

Example, the jurors who pronounced him Innocent. When they discovered there were no book deals coming their way , they changed their mind to get press and possibly financial opportunities.

Technically they didn't pronounce him "innocent", they pronounced him "not guilty". There is a difference. IMO

[who_is_it]

Watching MTV. Had completely forgotten how he could cross the line from Soul to Rock. I really forgot Dirty Diana. Amazing stuff.

It's one of my favorite songs and I love his outfit in the video. It's so cool when he shred his shirt.

[who_is_it]

Btw, there are already auctioned personal items on ebay. If I remember it correctly David Guest sells some items. I think one couldn't lose money because it gets more valuable the longer you own it. But the items I would like to have (like costumes) would be highly expensive, I guess.

[Mayasmimi]

I think and I also have heard his friends and some family members tell him to stay away from young boys and he said no there was nothing wrong with them sleeping in his bed..so alot felt someone who was accused of a horrible crime but then make statements like MJ did he IMO kinda kept that black cloud over himself..I do not know what happened he was found not guilty by a court of law..so I am just talking out loud

I have and always will say OJ is a murderer that got off...so some are found NG and it does not matter..in OJ case I know he did it without a doubt...MJ I am not so sure I think someone found someone with a heart of a child and jumped on it and screamed molestation..all JMO


You are always so well spoken. I agree 100%. Don't know either, but have always leaned towards innocence. As I see it Michael was a sitting duck.

[aproudmom]

No doubt he brought much of it on himself -- very poor judgement. Just for the record though Martin Bashir edited that tape - it came out during the trial and as a result some of his statements were taken out of context. However, I do believe he should have never had kids spending the night especially after the 1993 allegations. Just left himself too vulnerable and was pretty dumb on his part even if some believed it was innocent. Apparently since the trial he finally realized it.

See that was all I had in my mind that creepy tape..and then heard MB edited tape

[Mayasmimi]

It's one of my favorite songs and I love his outfit in the video. It's so cool when he shred his shirt.

Can't pick a fave. At this very second Black or White is my favorite.

[Avalon]

I have like 5 MTV channels and have no idea which one is regular MTV. The one I have on is "MTV Jams" and they're showing MJ videos. Is that the one you all are talking about?

[who_is_it]

about auctions:

"The custom long-sleeve shirt was expected to sell for $1,000 to $1,500 and went for $52,500, Julien’s said." :ohmy:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&sid=a.9xv0kGkwC0

[aproudmom]

I have no doubt that OJ is guilty. I think DNA evidence was so new then - the jury did not even understand it.
With MJ it was just plain mass hysteria due to the word "pedophile" that overshadowed people from looking at the facts objectively. JMHO

good glad I am not alone.. ITA as far as MJ

[who_is_it]

You never know until you try. :smile: You might get lucky.

Do you have a newspaper headlining his death? They were all sold out in my area for miles around.

If a shirt was 52,000 US$ I couldn't afford it...

[Avalon]

Now watching the "Don't Stop til You Get Enough" video on VH1. Looks like that was after MJ's first nose job. He should've stopped there. He looks adorable and it was a perfect nose job. I think he had it further reduced by the time of the cover of "Thriller".

[Mayasmimi]

I have like 5 MTV channels and have no idea which one is regular MTV. The one I have on is "MTV Jams" and they're showing MJ videos. Is that the one you all are talking about?


Regular MTV for me. Michael Jackson videos. I'm sure it's the same. Did they just show In The Closet?

[Avalon]

Nah....I have MTVH, MTVJ, MTV2, MTV3....WTF.

They're showing some of the same videos over and over though, whichever channel I'm watching. (Like, I saw them do "ABC" on Bandstand twice now....and the "Bad" video twice in a row....geez, it's not like the material is limited.)

P.S. OK, I just found regular MTV....different section of the channels.

[aproudmom]

I do have a question if they felt MJ was a child molester would they not take his kids from him??I know many kids slip through the cracks but I do not think he could pay them off to keep his kids..I think MJ trusted alot of people early on and they turned around and saw the dollar signs MJ was never able to be a child and IMO he was treated much worse by his father he had no self esteem and he was never happy with the way he looked..I really think his abuse as a child had alot to do with the way MJ was which is very odd to alot of people but does not mean he was a pedo

[who_is_it]

another witness, not mentioned by the LA Times, who stated Michael was in good form 2 days before his death:

"Patrick Woodroffe, a lighting director who was at the rehearsals, said that Jackson had been on good form on Tuesday night. "He came on stage at 9 o'clock in the evening and we all looked at each other and there was something that said that he really had it," he said. "It was like he had been holding back and suddenly he was performing as one had remembered him in the past.""

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5653140/Michael-Jackson-the-final-days-and-how-TMZ.com-scooped-the-world.html

[Avalon]

I was thinking MJ looked good at that concert presser....but then I saw the whole video....it really was awkward....like he couldn't get out what he wanted to say, or somethin'....

Hey, when the heck was this interview with the nanny, I wonder..?

[aproudmom]

Nah....I have MTVH, MTVJ, MTV2, MTV3....WTF.

They're showing some of the same videos over and over though, whichever channel I'm watching. (Like, I saw them do "ABC" on Bandstand twice now....and the "Bad" video twice in a row....geez, it's not like the material is limited.)

P.S. OK, I just found regular MTV....different section of the channels.

it is on regular MTV here getting ready to go to a commercial KING OF VIDEOS is what it is called..

[Avalon]

From TMZ: "Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was with Michael Jackson at the time of his collapse, voluntarily contacted the Los Angeles Police Department. Detectives assigned to Robbery-Homicide Division met with Dr. Murray and conducted an extensive interview. Dr. Murray was cooperative and provided information which will aid the investigation."

Boy, could they give us any less information?

[aproudmom]

I was thinking MJ looked good at that concert presser....but then I saw the whole video....it really was awkward....like he couldn't get out what he wanted to say, or somethin'....

Hey, when the heck was this interview with the nanny, I wonder..?

I watched it live stream on here when he announced his tour as far as the nanny it was under breaking news IIRC and today or tonight..I am not so sure all the media is right..how do you pump someones stomach...do you not have to go to the ER for that:confused:

[4Life]

I have like 5 MTV channels and have no idea which one is regular MTV. The one I have on is "MTV Jams" and they're showing MJ videos. Is that the one you all are talking about?

No, those MTVs are all together in a different section, your regular MTV should be in a different section on your cable

[Mayasmimi]

Nah....I have MTVH, MTVJ, MTV2, MTV3....WTF.

They're showing some of the same videos over and over though, whichever channel I'm watching. (Like, I saw them do "ABC" on Bandstand twice now....and the "Bad" video twice in a row....geez, it's not like the material is limited.)

P.S. OK, I just found regular MTV....different section of the channels.

Good for you. Sure beats LKL. I have no idea what he's doing.

[aproudmom]

From TMZ: "Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was with Michael Jackson at the time of his collapse, voluntarily contacted the Los Angeles Police Department. Detectives assigned to Robbery-Homicide Division met with Dr. Murray and conducted an extensive interview. Dr. Murray was cooperative and provided information which will aid the investigation."

Boy, could they give us any less information?

them darn teasers:biggrin:

[Mayasmimi]

Michael and Janet. This song I never thought I cared for. Watching now, I do like it. Funny how time changes things. No?

You Are Not Alone just now. Love this song.

[who_is_it]

By the reliable source "The Times":

"DOZENS of previously unknown Michael Jackson songs, including a warning about climate change which he was composing two days before he died, are expected to restore his children’s fortunes in the months and years ahead."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591266.ece

[kipswife]

Thank you. I've read a great deal about Jackson over the years. I believe what the children he molested said, and I believe that an innocent man would never pay off people to stifle an accusation like that if it weren't true. If he had truly had exculpatory evidence, it would have been shouted from the rooftops. If there's one thing MJ knew about, it was how to generate huge amounts of publicity.

nice to hear a voice of reason .... as you always are

:biggrin:

[Mayasmimi]

Show is over. Awe. Need more. Guess I'll run on to Youtube. Later yall.

[emdragon]

I think and I also have heard his friends and some family members tell him to stay away from young boys and he said no there was nothing wrong with them sleeping in his bed..so alot felt someone who was accused of a horrible crime but then make statements like MJ did he IMO kinda kept that black cloud over himself..I do not know what happened he was found not guilty by a court of law..so I am just talking out loud

I have and always will say OJ is a murderer that got off...so some are found NG and it does not matter..in OJ case I know he did it without a doubt...MJ I am not so sure I think someone found someone with a heart of a child and jumped on it and screamed molestation..all JMO

Oh I agree and have said so- even if he was innocent as a baby he continued the behaviors that made him look guilty.
there wasn't evidence and I'm still waiting for a victim to step up, if one never does I have to surmise he was innocent. I honestly believed that some kid would reach adulthood and blow the lid off everything- but it hasn't happened so I just don't know.

OJ- totally different story- there was hard evidence that he is guilty and that the state just suxed at presenting their case.

[aproudmom]

I have like 5 MTV channels and have no idea which one is regular MTV. The one I have on is "MTV Jams" and they're showing MJ videos. Is that the one you all are talking about?

It is over on my MTV but on VH1 and VH1C there is things about MJ

[who_is_it]

another quote about the rehearsals:

"Between numbers, Kenny Ortega, the long-serving director, urged him to take it easy, to save his voice, but Jackson ignored the advice. “He was well rehearsed and seemed to be enjoying pushing himself,” said the source."
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591266.ece

[aproudmom]

Geraldo talking about him...not a big fan of GR but o well..

[aproudmom]

JOE JACKSON getting ready to talk on Geraldo Rivera FOX

[Mayasmimi]

Geraldo talking about him...not a big fan of GR but o well..

Viewing myself. I'm not a big Geraldo fan either.

[Mayasmimi]

JOE JACKSON getting ready to talk on Geraldo Rivera FOX

Watching. Thanks for the tip.

[emdragon]

I do have a question if they felt MJ was a child molester would they not take his kids from him??I know many kids slip through the cracks but I do not think he could pay them off to keep his kids..I think MJ trusted alot of people early on and they turned around and saw the dollar signs MJ was never able to be a child and IMO he was treated much worse by his father he had no self esteem and he was never happy with the way he looked..I really think his abuse as a child had alot to do with the way MJ was which is very odd to alot of people but does not mean he was a pedo

I just have to say this because it bothers me everytime it gets used as an excuse for how he was...

Yes he had a horrible father. But as far as the entertainment industry his childhood was no worse than the Osmond's. And at the time Donny was the teen idol and all that brought with it.

The only difference between them is their parents. A really great example of the power of good parents..

I believe Donny does understand the loss of childhood and loneliness and that is why he always remained a friend of Michael's but he was also clear that Michael used it as an excuse for his odd behavior

[aproudmom]

What nanny who worked for Michael Jackson saw
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591123.ece


Nanny reveals tragic secret life of Jackson
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

[who_is_it]

Michael Jackson's director sees 'We are the World'-type tribute

Although plans are not yet confirmed, Ortega -- the choreographer and director behind such hits as “Dirty Dancing,” “High School Musical” and “Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus: Best of Both Worlds Concert Tour” -- is seeking to create a tribute to the singer using some of the choreography, costuming, musical staging and films Jackson engineered for his 50-date “This Is It” concert run at London’s O2 Arena.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/06/michael-jacksons-director-sees-we-are-the-worldtype-tribute.html

[Lyvia]

<snip>With MJ it was just plain mass hysteria due to the word "pedophile" that overshadowed people from looking at the facts objectively and believing a street-wise kid and his family who had plotted the entire thing. JMHO

I looked at the facts objectively. I am sure many fans did not. I believe Michael Jackson molested many children. I believe he escaped justice just like many criminals do.

Two settlements of millions of dollars. Risking more settlements and prison just to bring young boys into his bed. Defending the practice by saying he'd let an accused child molester sleep with his own children, as long as he knew them. No parent, no one who loves children would say or do that. It's simply incompatible with loving children selflessly.

He couldn't help himself. He was smart enough to hide in plain sight and sell the manchild routine to many people. But even several of the jurors believe he was guilty of molesting children.

[Mayasmimi]

Joseph Jackson frustrates me. Geraldo, yup...him too.

[aproudmom]

OMG so the nanny was let go..did not know that

She was dismissed for a final time last December but still went back to see the children. When she visited them in April she claims Jackson was so hard up she had to buy “happy birthday” balloons for Paris on her own credit card.

[Mr. Moto2]

By the reliable source "The Times":

"DOZENS of previously unknown Michael Jackson songs, including a warning about climate change which he was composing two days before he died, are expected to restore his children’s fortunes in the months and years ahead."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591266.ece

I've read it's something like 100, or even 200 songs that the public hasn't heard before.

[Lyvia]

What a he!! of an atmosphere to raise children in.

You said it! I already thought those children were in a bad, bad situation, but with a father doing so many drugs he had to have him stomach pumped over and over? I wonder what everyone here would say if the father was just some guy who worked pumping gas or driving a bus.

[FallenAngel♥]

what did Joe say? hubby won't let me turn the channel :(

[who_is_it]

What nanny who worked for Michael Jackson saw
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591123.ece


Nanny reveals tragic secret life of Jackson
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

I've read all the 5 pages of the first article. She has no good things to say about Michael, I believe parts of it to be true.

I think it's not correct that she spoke out to the media -- even worse that she did it so soon. At least she spoke to "The Times" and not to a British tabloid.

[Mr. Moto2]

Now watching the "Don't Stop til You Get Enough" video on VH1. Looks like that was after MJ's first nose job. He should've stopped there. He looks adorable and it was a perfect nose job. I think he had it further reduced by the time of the cover of "Thriller".

Yes, and I think he looked really good on the cover of "Off the Wall", which is a very underrated album IMO. He looked real and unpretentious back then. But I know he had such a complex about his looks. Didn't his wonderful dad call him "big nose" when he was a kid? Geez.

[who_is_it]

[B]Nanny reveals tragic secret life of Jackson
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

"Rwaramba claims the Nation of Islam, the sect that had become increasingly prominent in Jackson’s life, told him it cost $100,000 (£60,000) a month to rent the mansion, but she believes similar properties were on the market for no more than $25,000 a month."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

TYPICAL! I was already wondering why the rent was so high...

[aproudmom]

news of the world Debbie R said they are not his kids within the last hours...OFGS here we go..no link just reported it on GR

[Mayasmimi]

news of the world Debbie R said they are not his kids within the last hours...OFGS here we go..no link just reported it on GR


They were is kids, just not his bio children. Ok. So what else is new? Geesh. No offense to you, Mom. Just saying, was it not obvious?

[who_is_it]

What nanny who worked for Michael Jackson saw
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591123.ece



If this is true I'm shocked that his mother asked for his money right after his death.

I believe also most bad things she said about Michael. I believe he was unable to deal with being "introduced" to reality.

Nevertheless I stand by what I said before: It's not okay that she spoke out to the media... but at least she spoke out to "The Times".

[aproudmom]

I've read all the 5 pages of the first article. She has no good things to say about Michael, I believe parts of it to be true.

I think it's not correct that she spoke out to the media -- even worse that she did it so soon. At least she spoke to "The Times" and not to a British tabloid.

I am just shocked I thought she was still the kids Nanny but she was let go..I am sure some of it is true did you read the part about his mom calling her asking her where the money was??seemed a little odd if true..well unless they had to get everything out and he was known to hide money I guess

[who_is_it]

news of the world Debbie R said they are not his kids within the last hours...OFGS here we go..no link just reported it on GR

NOTW is trashiest British tabloid, sued by Max Mosley (formula one), Sienna Miller and a lot of others -- even trashier than "The Sun". It was NOTW which delivered the untrue story of Britney's sextape.

[Mayasmimi]

Gestational carrier? Ouch. Geraldo drives me insane.

[who_is_it]

I am just shocked I thought she was still the kids Nanny but she was let go..I am sure some of it is true did you read the part about his mom calling her asking her where the money was??seemed a little odd if true..well unless they had to get everything out and he was known to hide money I guess

Though it's not nice to read: I believe most to be true. Sadly.

[aproudmom]

If this is true I'm shocked that his mother asked for his money right after his death.

I believe also most bad things she said about Michael. I believe he was unable to deal with being "introduced" to reality.

Nevertheless I stand by what I said before: It's not okay that she spoke out to the media... but at least she spoke out to "The Times".

I just said that..lol.I think she needs to talk to LE first and media next if she really loves those kids sorry I don't think it is right..JMO

[who_is_it]

I just said that..lol.I think she needs to talk to LE first and media next if she really loves those kids sorry I don't think it is right..JMO

Our posts were parallel... :wink:

[MiamiNice1]

What nanny who worked for Michael Jackson saw
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591123.ece


Nanny reveals tragic secret life of Jackson
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

I can hardly believe what I am reading by the nanny, Grace! What a horror those poor, poor kids have suffered. I believe her and what she has said about the Sheikh has all been said in the recent past by the Sheikh (who was suing MJ) , as well.

Sounds like MJ left a HUGE path of destruction. From Grace's fast account here of her life with MJ, it sounds exactly like the nightmare of living with a drug addict.

What a bizarre coincidence she was going to sit down for the interview now, before his London Concerts. For her sake and for her lack of Health insurance for the care of her neglected Lupus, she should be quiet for now and write a BOOK!


eta - I jokingly called a Louis Farrakhan appearance earlier on this thread....now I can see it will probably be true! :ohmy:

[aproudmom]

NOTW is trashiest British tabloid, sued by Max Mosley (formula one), Sienna Miller and a lot of others -- even trashier than "The Sun". It was NOTW which delivered the untrue story of Britney's sextape.

To me it means nothing those are his kids blood or not..

[emdragon]

Someone wants $$$$$$ for those children. And it's probably their 'mother' who sold them off but now sees even bigger dollar signs.

You do understand that every time you say the children's mother sold her kids you are also saying Jackson BOUGHT them...just as loathsome an act.

[4Life]

news of the world Debbie R said they are not his kids within the last hours...OFGS here we go..no link just reported it on GR

They just had the reporter on and he just said Debbie did not just make that claim, she made that claim long before MJ was dead

[4Life]

To me it means nothing those are his kids blood or not..

I agree, those kids are his, blood or not

[who_is_it]

The reporter from that tabloid just said Debbie did not just make that claim, she made that claim lomg before MJ was dead

I always believed they were not his biological kids... but I don't believe a word of the NOTW. If you consider the tabloid's history of trials for defamation they maybe didn't talk to anybody but just published their thoughts (which are my thoughts and the thoughts of many other people).

No matter if he's not their biological father: I believe he was a good father to them.

[Mayasmimi]

Someone wants $$$$$$ for those children. And it's probably their 'mother' who sold them off but now sees even bigger dollar signs.


I hope not. So sad for the children. I hope that Rowe doesn't. I really don't think she will. Just me. Seems like a nice enough woman. IDK.

[aproudmom]

IMO she should never get them..

But the story may be complicated, as was always the case with the perennially beleaguered King of Pop. The judge who granted sole custody to Jackson in a 2005 dispute with Rowe reportedly reversed that decision over a technicality, according to TMZ, meaning Rowe could be first in line for custody of her biological children.

But Rowe, who reportedly was pushing for a larger settlement from Jackson during the 2005 hearings, stated clearly in court documents that she had no interest in taking her children.

"They're his kids. They're not my kids," she said. "I don't have any rights."

Some child advocates say Rowe's custody would prove detrimental to the children, and they believe she will never gain control of them.

"There's no judge on the planet that would give a woman like that custody of these children. She basically treated them like loaves of bread," said Wendy Murphy, a prosecutor and child advocate, who noted that 20 years of legal trends indicate that the contract will win out.

[who_is_it]

I hope not. So sad for the children. I hope that Rowe doesn't. I really don't think she will. Just me. Seems like a nice enough woman. IDK.

Debbie always said: "The children are his." I don't think she's interested in custody. Maybe she's interested in getting a piece of the $$$ cake.

Unlike many others I didn't get a too bad impression of her. During the trial she supported Mike.

She's probably not the super moral woman because she cashed in, too, but there were worse people in Michael's life. If I only read the story about the 100,000 $ rent house, on the market similar objects for 25,000 $, it makes me wanna barf

[who_is_it]

<snipped>

"They're his kids. They're not my kids," she said. "I don't have any rights."
<snipped>


LOL, again parallel...

[aproudmom]

I hope not. So sad for the children. I hope that Rowe doesn't. I really don't think she will. Just me. Seems like a nice enough woman. IDK.

well if she can get some money to go away I am sure she will...

[who_is_it]

You are right, it sure looks like a rerun. I wonder if they will cut Usher out when he comments about how Larry is talking about Michael and his life drama the way he is so soon after his death. That was so cool of Usher, Liza put her hand on his shoulder and agreed when he said that.

What did Usher say and what did Larry say which wasn't correct?

[Avalon]

Wow....I'm in shock over what the nanny had to say. If this is true, those poor kids have not had a stable life at all. Wonder how MJ got hooked up with the Nation of Islam. The things that don't make sense about the nanny's story is that MJ looked good at the London tour announcement (not emaciated, but then again we could only see his face)....and I find it odd that BOTH she and MJ have lupus? D*mn, this case just gets stranger and stranger.

Oh well, see you guys tomorrow....

[aproudmom]

LOL, again parallel...

you know what happened why he did not get full custody? in 2005 if she did not want them anyway

[Themis]

Fire the Nanny and rent a house for even a *mere* $25,000 per month is nutso.
Well, let me rephrase that -- sounds more in keeping with the what is being reported about the world of MJ. [JMO * Themis]

[aproudmom]

Wow....I'm in shock over what the nanny had to say. If this is true, those poor kids have not had a stable life at all. Wonder how MJ got hooked up with the Nation of Islam. The things that don't make sense about the nanny's story is that MJ looked good at the London tour announcement (not emaciated, but then again we could only see his face)....and I find it odd that BOTH she and MJ have lupus? D*mn, this case just gets stranger and stranger.

Oh well, see you guys tomorrow....

night Avalon..so does she have lupus I thought it was him and they just said it was her..but heck why does it matter now stupid question on my part

[lune3]

What nanny who worked for Michael Jackson saw
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591123.ece


Nanny reveals tragic secret life of Jackson
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6591237.ece

Just finished reading both these articles. I had no idea that Grace had been fired (and more than once). I had hoped she would have a continuing and solid role in the children's upbringing, after all she has been a presence as a mother figure since they were babies. And evidently the kids are very attached to her.

If everything that's related in that article is true, that's pretty enlightening stuff. I'm thinking about what Lisa Marie Presley said, "the very very bad",and why she needed to save herself and extricate herself. Also what Liza Minnelli warned regarding what was to come. This is all so sad, those poor kids.

[4Life]

Tomorrow, Sunday at 10am, The E channel is having a brand new special on the lives of Farrah and Michael, which will include their highs and lows of their lives

[who_is_it]

Shortly after Michael's death TMZ published he was "listless" and "lethargic" at his last rehearsal. Another source (Patrick Woodroffe to Telegraph) said "he was performing as one had remembered him in the past" on Tuesday, not during the last rehearsal on Wednesday.


contradicting to

"Michael Jackson's last rehearsal: 'just beaming with gladness'"
(LA Times)

----------------------
The promotors also stated he didn't appear to be on drugs


contradicting to

what family members already implied: his addiction.
-----------------------

One has to be careful with the information. Though the statements appear sincere and appreciating it could be that the promoters already try to control the damage (what would be understandable).