Do you believe in god?

[bbking]

This question was inspired from an essay I read on one of the dreaded links, and I will post it at the end because it is a wonderful, inspirational piece, in my opinion.

I think most people believe in God, and I wonder, those of you who believe in God, have you ever tried to prove that God exists. I think the essay in the link proves that God exists through compelling,
"circumstantial" evidence.

I also get the feeling that most people who think they believe in God don't spend much time thinking about God, and I wonder whether there is therefore much difference between hse who believe in God and those who do not.

I think the following essay (http://surftofind.com/god) will inspire Liberals and Conservatives alike, and there should therefore be no objection to publishing it here -it SHOULD NOT be controversial.

And so, I end with "GOD BLESS YOU" and in that respect, I have a question.

I used to feel uncomfortable when anybody said "God Bless You", to me.

Why?

I thought I fely uncomfortable because I though it was rather presumptuous for somebody (other than a priest) to use that term.

Was I right to feel that way?

Well, I guess I have told you how I feel about God and people, now it's your turn, and this is one topic that is never boring, in my opinion.

Now for those who think this is a personal issue, I don't agree because God can hear you, so what's the point?

[apothecary]

Warning...I did have a glass(rather large) of wine on an empty stomach when I read your post.It brought to mind the john Updike novel I read about 20 yrs ago about a mathematician who tried to prove God exists using computer analysis.Can't even remember the title but I loved the book and can't even remember the ending.Anyways,my personal belief is that there is no god.Life is a crap shoot and we respond to what happens to us according to our in born personalities.Some win some lose.I always compare it to a stepping on ants or whatever and some get crunched and some get away.That's the way it is.

[doctor_J]

Please see these search results before you click on the poster's link to the site they keep pushing.

http://www.google.com/search?q=surftofind&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Who are "they" and what is their point? Before your post came up (I have learned to trust your posts) I clicked the "essay" The link was dishonest, the message board is fake, all clicks off that page take you to the same propoganda sites. Nothing about the site is real or honest. What's the point? It makes the OP's thread dishonest. He/she is obviously not interested in whether or not a person believes in God or why.

Isn't this kind of thing callled spam? Or is it just trolling? Is the only difference in the motive? Hard to imagine people value their time so little as to spend it in such a manner. Why are "they" allowed to continue this nonsense at IS?

[incidentally]

Who are "they" and what is their point? Before your post came up (I have learned to trust your posts) I clicked the "essay" The link was dishonest, the message board is fake, all clicks off that page take you to the same propoganda sites. Nothing about the site is real or honest. What's the point? It makes the OP's thread dishonest. He/she is obviously not interested in whether or not a person believes in God or why.

Isn't this kind of thing callled spam? Or is it just trolling? Is the only difference in the motive? Hard to imagine people value their time so little as to spend it in such a manner. Why are "they" allowed to continue this nonsense at IS?

I'm sorry if you are angry at me, doctor_J but according to my searches this person, along with several other posters are pushing this site which I believe, based on factual information, is a spam site. I've done many, many searches on them.

Again, I apologize if I have upset you.

tally

[incidentally]

Please refer to this link to see SOME the key words these posters are using in order to get hits on their site. If you look at their posts here, you will see these words used often.

http://searchanalytics.compete.com/site_referrals/surftofind.com

Every time we post on their threads, they receive more potential hits to their spam site, imo but I don't want to see IS go down because of these posters.

ETA: According to my information and belief, the more people that click on their link, the more money they make.

[bbking]

You are free to name and define him (or her).

But generally speaking, God refers to the all-powerful force that is responsible for creating this vast universe -now is the word "creating" okay?

Ideas:

•"All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced." (Isaiah 45:16)

•"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God." (Isaiah 45:5)

•"It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isaiah 45:12)

•"The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him." (Nahum 1:7)

•"The eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love." (Psalms 33:18)

•"Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

•"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5-6)

[bbking]

You can not do a thing to change that. Only the Holy Spirit can change a person's heart and take that which is "dead" (according to Scripture) and make it alive. Be a prayer warrior in regards to your friend, but the burden is not yours to carry. :smile:

THANK YOU, I know it's not my burden but it's difficult to feel that way...when it's personal involvement.

[wanabegeek]

I believe in God, always have and always will!

[Charms]

Yes. I definitely believe in God. I have a wonderful relationship with him.
The best thing about God is you don't have to believe in Him, He believes in you, regardless.

[bbking]

Yes. I definitely believe in God. I have a wonderful relationship with him.
The best thing about God is you don't have to believe in Him, He believes in you, regardless.



....and that's worth repeating...

[incidentally]

I suppose, I run the risk of being banned but this board, IS, has meant a lot to me so I give you another link that you all may understand what I strongly, I believe is going on here.

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/bot.html

I posted a link earlier about how they use catch word or phrases that puts them on top of any search engine.

Am I the only one that has noticed the new nics that always end up on these threads? Am I the only one that notices, they start new threads after falsely establishing a level of "trust"? Am I the only one that notices the "hook" happens on weekend or late in the evening?

And it is my belief, it is all spam, bots, potentially viruses and "people" that arrive to make it look real.

Every hit to their site, IMO, produces revenue. Every post here, imo, does the same

Maybe IS doesn't care, but I do.

Regards,

tally

[incidentally]

No offense, but I have to say the boards today have been oddly paranoid if you can classify this group in such a way. I noticed the same thing on another thread. Any astrologers out there? Any idea what's going on?

Hi herlock,

It hasn't been just today, I have been researching this for many weeks. I've brought this up several times as has others over the last month or more.

No paranoia here and no disrespect meant but IS is being used, imo, to produce revenue by others. If you want, search the links they provide. do right click properties and then search the link without the backslash.

Look at other sites that have figured it out.

Regards,

tally

ETA: do a search on surftofind.com and then Lynn Foster. This will give you a starting point. Make sure your virus and firewalls are secure.

[Charms]

No offense, but I have to say the boards today have been oddly paranoid if you can classify this group in such a way. I noticed the same thing on another thread. Any astrologers out there? Any idea what's going on?


Astrologers??? :shrug:
God created the stars and the universe. He is the only predictor and indicator of life. :rose:

[bbking]

No offense, but I have to say the boards today have been oddly paranoid if you can classify this group in such a way. I noticed the same thing on another thread. Any astrologers out there? Any idea what's going on?


I don't think it's paranoia.

I think it's control-freak obsession.

Some people get jealous when a thread gets popular because THEY didn't start it -can it be as petty as that?

Personally, I think it's just the obsession to censor.

I have learned a great deal from the surftofind link, and it is clear and obvious that some people like to control every debate.

Personally, I am against all forms of censorship, and if they hide behind manufactured allegations regarding viruses and the like, to justify their so called "paranoia" -for the lack of a more precise word, they are extremely dishonest.

[incidentally]

I don't think it's paranoia.

I think it's control-freak obsession.

Some people get jealous when a thread gets popular because THEY didn't start it -can it be as petty as that?

Personally, I think it's just the obsession to censor.

I have learned a great deal from the surftofind link, and it is clear and obvious that some people like to control every debate.

Personally, I am against all forms of censorship, and if they hide behind manufactured allegations regarding viruses and the like, to justify their so called "paranoia" -for the lack of a more precise word, they are extremely dishonest.

See how fast this response came, Herlock? I believe, know..this is how it works, catch phrases included.

tally

ETA: They always acknowledge parts of others post that will "bot" them.

[Brentwood]

I do not believe God is an old white man sitting on a throne. I believe God is everything and we are all part of God.

I believe in reincarnation and that we are here to learn lessons and progress toward spiritual enlightenment.

I did not open the op link and suggest others do not open it.

[Cornblossom]

[I don't think tally is censoring...I think she's trying to save her friends computers from being infected if they should click on that link. IMO free will may be a gift from God...are you going to give free computers to anyone whose computer you harm by clicking on that link because they trusted you?

[bbking]

I expect that anybody who wants to participate in this thread would click on that link.

Anybody who doesn't wish to participate on this thread should not click on that link.

[bbking]

I don't think tally is censoring...I think she's trying to save her friends computers from being infected if they should click on that link. IMO free will may be a gift from God...are you going to give free computers to anyone whose computer you harm by clicking on that link because they trusted you?

There are no viruses on that site, here's a nice story about David Carradine I found on that site:

http://surftofind.com/carradine

He was a spiritual actor so it might be appropriate in this thread about God.

[annalyzer]

I don't think tally is censoring...I think she's trying to save her friends computers from being infected if they should click on that link. IMO free will may be a gift from God...are you going to give free computers to anyone whose computer you harm by clicking on that link because they trusted you?


Hi Corn. I clicked on the link and had no problem.

[Cornblossom]

You can call all the names you want,but when I clicked on that link,my virus program shut the page down and gave me the warning.

[bbking]

Hi Corn. I clicked on the link and had no problem.

I have never had a problem either.

[bbking]

You can call all the names you want,but when I clicked on that link,my virus program shut the page down and gave me the warning.


You obviously picked it up from some other site.

[Cornblossom]

Hi Corn. I clicked on the link and had no problem.
I did, as did others......hope you ran your virus scan after you clicked on it if yours didn't catch it.

[Cornblossom]

You obviously picked it up from some other site.

Funny that my virus program didn't do that until I clicked on that link....anyway,if you're going to start calling names there is no use posting on your thread any more. People know there is a chance that link has a virus and spam and if they so choose to click it-so be it.

[bbking]

no virus on that site.

[annalyzer]

I did, as did others......hope you ran your virus scan after you clicked on it if yours didn't catch it.

I'll take your word for it Corn.

[bbking]

Funny that my virus program didn't do that until I clicked on that link....anyway,if you're going to start calling names there is no use posting on your thread any more. People know there is a chance that link has a virus and spam and if they so choose to click it-so be it.


It's clean, feel free to find God

http://surftofind.com/god

[Cornblossom]

It's clean, feel free to find God

http://surftofind.com/god
LMAO...I don't have to click any link to find God.

[bbking]

Hi Corn. I clicked on the link and had no problem.


I'll confirmed that your word is reliable here, did I not?

[Brentwood]

I do not believe God is an old white man sitting on a throne. I believe God is everything and we are all part of God.

I believe in reincarnation and that we are here to learn lessons and progress toward spiritual enlightenment.

I did not open the op link and suggest others do not open it.

Don't click the link, people.

[Details]

I've always heard there are no athiests in fox holes.:wink:NOT true - I know one of them. And there are many atheists who have gone peacefully to their grave, with no deathbed conversion.

Sorry - but it's an insulting cliche - imagine if someone of the Islam faith said, "There are no infidels in foxholes" - with the same implication, that when push comes to shove, Christians would admit to themselves they truly believe in Allah. Or, "There are no Christians in foxholes" - implying everyone is really an atheist when it comes down to it.

I don't believe in God - never saw the evidence to suggest any such being exists. The world appears random, believers commit as much, or more, crime than unbelievers, there is no religion, no matter how much they all claim to have the answer, that does better for it's believers than the average (were there a path God prefers, you'd expect it to be obvious - in happiness, in goodness, in money, in something!). The laws of physics explain how everything we know happened, so there's no reason to look for more. I've read the bible - nothing in there that is any different than the thousands of holy books and religions to come before and after it.

I could be wrong - but as I see it - IF there is a God - just IF - he created me as I am - logical, inquisitive, and without any trace of faith. So, he chose me to not believe - if he exists. I'm going the direction I should go, whether there is or is not a God. To pretend a faith I do not have - assuredly that would not work with a true God who knows what you actually believe.

Conversion attempts are indeed futile - either you believe or you do not. It is a simple line.

[doctor_J]

I suppose, I run the risk of being banned but this board, IS, has meant a lot to me so I give you another link that you all may understand what I strongly, I believe is going on here.

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/bot.html

I posted a link earlier about how they use catch word or phrases that puts them on top of any search engine.

Am I the only one that has noticed the new nics that always end up on these threads? Am I the only one that notices, they start new threads after falsely establishing a level of "trust"? Am I the only one that notices the "hook" happens on weekend or late in the evening?

And it is my belief, it is all spam, bots, potentially viruses and "people" that arrive to make it look real.

Every hit to their site, IMO, produces revenue. Every post here, imo, does the same

Maybe IS doesn't care, but I do.

Regards,

tally

I came to the same conclusion independently of your earlier post. I was AGREEING with you. Just angry at seeing this repeatedly happen here. I always feel deceived after clicking on their links. Sorry if it was confusing. I didn't check back for hours, knowing the thread was deceitful.

[doctor_J]

Who are "they" and what is their point? Before your post came up (I have learned to trust your posts) I clicked the "essay" The link was dishonest, the message board is fake, all clicks off that page take you to the same propoganda sites. Nothing about the site is real or honest. What's the point? It makes the OP's thread dishonest. He/she is obviously not interested in whether or not a person believes in God or why.

Isn't this kind of thing callled spam? Or is it just trolling? Is the only difference in the motive? Hard to imagine people value their time so little as to spend it in such a manner. Why are "they" allowed to continue this nonsense at IS?

Had to quote myself because the OP accused me of bad spelling. My profuse apologies for misspelling "propaganda" in my offense over once again, being deceived by spam. I believe my sin was misplacing a vowel.:blushing:

[Lynden1000]

If you paused for air, you may learn to edit your own spelling.

I am very much interested on whether or not a person believes in God because a dear friend is an atheist and I don't know what I can do to change that.

As an atheist, I can tell you that nothing is more annoying than having a theist friend who takes it upon himself to make you his personal test subject when you're not interested.

If your friend likes to talk religion, then by all means share. And if he/she likes to debate, all the better.

If not, then the best thing to do is to respect your friend's conclusions and leave it at that. Otherwise I can assure you that the friend will not remain such for very long.

[bbking]

NOT true - I know one of them. And there are many atheists who have gone peacefully to their grave, with no deathbed conversion.

Sorry - but it's an insulting cliche - imagine if someone of the Islam faith said, "There are no infidels in foxholes" - with the same implication, that when push comes to shove, Christians would admit to themselves they truly believe in Allah. Or, "There are no Christians in foxholes" - implying everyone is really an atheist when it comes down to it.

I don't believe in God - never saw the evidence to suggest any such being exists. The world appears random, believers commit as much, or more, crime than unbelievers, there is no religion, no matter how much they all claim to have the answer, that does better for it's believers than the average (were there a path God prefers, you'd expect it to be obvious - in happiness, in goodness, in money, in something!). The laws of physics explain how everything we know happened, so there's no reason to look for more. I've read the bible - nothing in there that is any different than the thousands of holy books and religions to come before and after it.

I could be wrong - but as I see it - IF there is a God - just IF - he created me as I am - logical, inquisitive, and without any trace of faith. So, he chose me to not believe - if he exists. I'm going the direction I should go, whether there is or is not a God. To pretend a faith I do not have - assuredly that would not work with a true God who knows what you actually believe.

Conversion attempts are indeed futile - either you believe or you do not. It is a simple line.

I think that one day, you might convert yourself.

I'd like to share a little quote with you from Blaise Pascal, who said the following:

"What reason have they to say that one cannot rise from the dead? hich is more difficult, to be born, or to rise again? That what has never been should be, or that which has been should be again? Is it more difficult to come into being than to return to it? Habit makes one seem to us, the lack of habit makes the other impossible - a commonplace way of judging !"

[bbking]

This is my favorite quote from Pascal:

"Nature is an infinite sphere whose cente is everywhere and whose circumpherence is nowhere. Ultimately, it is the greatest perceptible feature of God's almightiness that our imagination should be lost in that thought."

Those who read Pascal say things like, "We need not share his faith to recognoze what a depth of understanding of the human mind and heart is in Pascal and to be stirred by his evocation of man's lot and by his mystic sense of the divine."

[CindR]

I suppose, I run the risk of being banned but this board, IS, has meant a lot to me so I give you another link that you all may understand what I strongly, I believe is going on here.

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/bot.html

I posted a link earlier about how they use catch word or phrases that puts them on top of any search engine.

Am I the only one that has noticed the new nics that always end up on these threads? Am I the only one that notices, they start new threads after falsely establishing a level of "trust"? Am I the only one that notices the "hook" happens on weekend or late in the evening?

And it is my belief, it is all spam, bots, potentially viruses and "people" that arrive to make it look real.

Every hit to their site, IMO, produces revenue. Every post here, imo, does the same

Maybe IS doesn't care, but I do.

Regards,

tally

This thread was moved, links, too so they must meet with CW's approval. :shrug:

[Cooper]

I think this thread is interesting. I like reading the various responses. I did click on the link - and guess what? - NO VIRUS! So what's that all about?


Perhaps you don't have security protection?

My computer shut down with a warning.

[Carol25]

Do I believe in God? Most certainly! I believe that everyone was born with God in their heart. It is there for the taking and He tries to get you to know Him. You can accept Him or reject Him. It's really that simple.

I did not have a religious background, yet He found me. If we all really reflected on our lives and think of the miracles He has performed for us, we would be amazed. The coincidences in our lives that changed our paths were not just coincidences. They were most likely the interception from God. Have you thanked Him?

Have you had no miracles in your life? Are you not reflecting hard enough or not let God open those doors?

[Details]

I think that one day, you might convert yourself.

I'd like to share a little quote with you from Blaise Pascal, who said the following:

"What reason have they to say that one cannot rise from the dead? hich is more difficult, to be born, or to rise again? That what has never been should be, or that which has been should be again? Is it more difficult to come into being than to return to it? Habit makes one seem to us, the lack of habit makes the other impossible - a commonplace way of judging !"I think one day you might convert too.

Habit makes people believe in God - because their parents did, and they were raised to, and everyone around them does - so if we go by the way of thinking a common place way of judging can well be wrong - that can cut both ways.

But to suggest to anyone that their faith, their belief, their way of seeing the world is false and a lie, as the "no atheists in foxholes" does - is always an insult, whether it's a Muslim saying all Christians admit their true belief in Allah when death is coming; or an atheist saying believers abandon their belief when death is imminent.

[Doc Holliday]

So was this an honest thread, or was there an underlying motive to get people to visit that "surf to find" site?

I notice that bbking has started another thread about "bias" on Open Court, with, of course, another link to "surf to find".

So what's up, bbking? Did you want honest discussion or do you benefit in some way from people visiting "surf to find"? Or, perhaps, both?

[farina]

This is my favorite quote from Pascal:

"Nature is an infinite sphere whose cente is everywhere and whose circumpherence is nowhere. Ultimately, it is the greatest perceptible feature of God's almightiness that our imagination should be lost in that thought."

Those who read Pascal say things like, "We need not share his faith to recognoze what a depth of understanding of the human mind and heart is in Pascal and to be stirred by his evocation of man's lot and by his mystic sense of the divine."

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/bigbang.html
Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God


Apparently even Stephen Hawking goes to church on occasion, perhaps just to be on the safe side.

[Details]

As it is an insult to claim that people who believe in God do so out of habit. That is your opinion, not a fact. My faith is much more personal and deeper than that, it is an insult to have it cheapened by being called merely a habit.
IMO.Habit was the word chosen in the quote I was replying to - and I was addressing the argument in that quote that suggests something everyone believes in is believed in out of habit, and thus should be questioned at the least. Although I'd say it's true for many. However, it's far less of an insult than suggesting your faith is not merely a habit, but not real at all, and would change in a foxhole.

Context matters - read the post and the quote I was replying to.

[Carol25]

Yes quite simply, I do believe in God.
Heddenup, about your sig...that's the wonderful thing about dogs! Do you think God provided us with them for that reason? lol!

[LisaM22]

I do not believe God is an old white man sitting on a throne. I believe God is everything and we are all part of God.

I believe in reincarnation and that we are here to learn lessons and progress toward spiritual enlightenment.

I did not open the op link and suggest others do not open it.

you got it :thumbup:

[AnniePie]

LMAO...I don't have to click any link to find God.

LOL I love you, CB!!

[AnniePie]

Do I believe in God? Most certainly! I believe that everyone was born with God in their heart. It is there for the taking and He tries to get you to know Him. You can accept Him or reject Him. It's really that simple.

I did not have a religious background, yet He found me. If we all really reflected on our lives and think of the miracles He has performed for us, we would be amazed. The coincidences in our lives that changed our paths were not just coincidences. They were most likely the interception from God. Have you thanked Him?

Have you had no miracles in your life? Are you not reflecting hard enough or not let God open those doors?


I so agree, Carol. The problem is that what we define as "miracles" are so often classified as "science" or just what a person living on this (miraculous!) earth would be taught to expect.

I once had a boss who knew I was a Christian and in a bout of ridicule asked me if I'd ever seen a miracle. I replied that every time one of my friends had a baby it was a miracle! He smirked as if I were a complete idiot and moved on.

That was over 25 years ago, and it amazes me still.

Annie

[AnniePie]

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/bigbang.html
Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God


Apparently even Stephen Hawking goes to church on occasion, perhaps just to be on the safe side.

LOL! I love it!! :laugh:

[momof6]

I believe there is a higher power somewhere.

I do not believe in religion, but am not an atheist. To me, everyone has there own way of finding there spiritual peace.

I'am not against religion or religious people. I have many Chrisitian relatives(all denominations) and Jewish friends, and I have a relative that is a Buddist. They are all wonderful people that do so much good for others. I love being around my religious friends, its just that formal religion is not for me.

[LisaM22]

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/bigbang.html
Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God


Apparently even Stephen Hawking goes to church on occasion, perhaps just to be on the safe side.

you do not have to believe in a bible to believe in a god, the two do not go hand in hand - the big bang may not agree with your bible, but who's to say it's not the work a god set in motion?

[Brentwood]

My 2 cents...

G-d is the white light of universal enlightenment that is a part of all of us and everything.

I believe the Bible is the symbolic account of the fall and restoration of the human soul to its divine origins. I believe our spiritual self is our more natural state of being (as opposed to our physical being that we are living now).

I also believe in reincarnation. Has anyone here read any of the Edgar Cayce books?

[February]

I believe in God with my whole being. I also believe in his son Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
Thanks to Jesus dyiing in the cross for my ( our) sins we are promised/guaranteed eternal life.
I can't wait to see my mommie.

[EMAA]

I believe in God with my whole being. I also believe in his son Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
Thanks to Jesus dyiing in the cross for my ( our) sins we are promised/guaranteed eternal life.
I can't wait to see my mommie.

Me too, and see her you shall. I long for the day to see my daughter again.

[LisaM22]

I believe there is a higher power somewhere.

I do not believe in religion, but am not an atheist. To me, everyone has there own way of finding there spiritual peace.
<snip>

you got it..... :thumbup:

[CRRJJ]

Me too, and see her you shall. I long for the day to see my daughter again.

And I wait for the time that I can see my husband, our 2 sons, my parents, grandparents, favorite aunt and uncle, and so many others and to think they would not be waiting for me to join them is just not anything I can comprehend. Of course they are there. HOW do others bear losing a dear one if they believe that is the end. pfft! no more? I pray for them even if they don't get it. :sad:

[Details]

And I wait for the time that I can see my husband, our 2 sons, my parents, grandparents, favorite aunt and uncle, and so many others and to think they would not be waiting for me to join them is just not anything I can comprehend. Of course they are there. HOW do others bear losing a dear one if they believe that is the end. pfft! no more? I pray for them even if they don't get it. :sad:It's not about getting it - or what I'd like. It's about what I believe to be the truth. I could wait for the time when all food turns to chocolate and I lose weight eating it - but I don't believe that to be true.

There's nothing to comprehend - it's just about what you think is the truth. If you don't think it's the truth, just because it is a very pretty and pleasant myth, doesn't change what you believe.

To me - there is this one life - which makes it all the more precious, means I cannot believe in any form of "kill them all, let God sort them out" (BTW: just speaking in general terms, not anything you or any other poster here has advocated), nor any concept that a murder of a child has anything to make me feel better (at least she's in heaven now). For all I see, this is reality - that's it. It'd be nice to think there's something after - but it'd also be nice to think I'm going to get a billion dollars, peace will break out in the middle east, hunger will go away - these things would be nice and beautiful to believe in - but they aren't true, from what I see of the world.

[LisaM22]

And I wait for the time that I can see my husband, our 2 sons, my parents, grandparents, favorite aunt and uncle, and so many others and to think they would not be waiting for me to join them is just not anything I can comprehend. Of course they are there. HOW do others bear losing a dear one if they believe that is the end. pfft! no more? I pray for them even if they don't get it. :sad:

just because you don't believe a god would be better then that, doesn't mean everyone believes that - it is sad to see some people try and use fear to propagate their myth, it is sad that you have to send part of your day praying to a god NOT to hurt your loved ones, you really think a god would send good people to hell for not believing what you believe, get real....

[LisaM22]

just because you don't believe a god would be better then that, doesn't mean everyone believes that - it is sad to see some people try and use fear to propagate their myth, it is sad that you have to send part of your day praying to a god NOT to hurt your loved ones, you really think a god would send good people to hell for not believing what you believe, get real....

rereading what you said CRRJJ, I am not sure I got you msg right, I apologize if I did not understand you correctly

[LisaM22]

Do I believe in G_D? I don't know. I DO believe there is more to life in the Universe than what is portrayed on Earth. Seems silly to me that we could perceive the idea that is G_D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ~~Carl Sagan~~

I love Carl Sagan shows, he does a great job explaining things, makes it easy to learn

[Doc Holliday]

Reading the excerpt of Pale Blue Dot was a brick wall moment for me.

We are just a micro speck of dust in the Universe.

Now imagine for a second if 'eternal cosmic inflation' is true. There would be an infinite number of those pale blue dots in an infinite number of pocket universes.........


I'm not totally sold on inflation, but I get the feeling that a growing number of scientists consider it a done deal. Or maybe I just hang out in places where inflation cosmologists are over represented.....

[Doc Holliday]

I didn't want to start a thread, but I stumbled upon this website a few weeks ago and I've found the video/discussions absolutely fascinating, and so I thought I'd post it here.

The interviewees run the spectrum from believers to non-believers, from theists to atheists, and include philosophers and scientists.


http://www.closertotruth.com/webisode-list

[spidereater]

It's not about getting it - or what I'd like. . . snipped> For all I see, this is reality - that's it. It'd be nice to think there's something after - but it'd also be nice to think I'm going to get a billion dollars, peace will break out in the middle east, hunger will go away - these things would be nice and beautiful to believe in - but they aren't true, from what I see of the world.Thank you for stating your feelings so well, Details. I agree completely!

[Doc Holliday]

Thank you for stating your feelings so well, Details. I agree completely!


I don't believe in an afterlife, because I can't accept the truth of something without sufficient evidence or reason, but I don't imagine for a second that death is extinction. I simply don't know. I'll be forever agnostic until the day of my death (assuming some scientific evidence doesn't emerge in the meantime which provides proof of an afterlife). My desire to know the truth and to think carefully and rationally and base my beliefs upon evidence will serve me just as well in any future existence as in the here and now.

Robert G. Ingersoll is one of my favorite free thinkers from the 19th century. He said that he didn't know if man was immortal because there was no evidence, but he expressed hope. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9407E4D71430E132A25751C2A9619C94689ED7CF

I too have the hope of a future existence, but not the belief. And it's amazing how many atheists out there give the knee-jerk reaction "well, I hope I win the lottery too!". There is no comparison between an event which can be examined scientifically (and the probability calculated with mathematical precision), and an event which is beyond the ability of science to examine. I think it's just sloppy thinking to compare a possible afterlife, properly understood, with known events in this universe. If a future existence doesn't involve any violations of natural law in this universe, or if the afterlife is something that is not here but there, not now but then, then there is no way to apply probability theory. It can't be examined scientifically - even in principle.

While reading an atheist message board once, I watched as a 'veteran' atheist was teaching a 'rookie' atheist. Two things you need to do, the vet said, first, always use a small "g" when writing the word 'god', and second, positively believe that death is extinction (close your eyes and imagine it).

Such is the fervor of the New Atheist whose religious faith is as strong as any Bible Fundamentalist. Express the hope of a possible afterlife to such people, and watch them lash out with hysteria and anger. It's almost as if they are afraid that there will be some sort of afterlife.

I'll close with an Ingersoll quote, where he was speaking after the death of a good friend:

In the drama of human life, all are actors, and no one
knows his part. In this great play the scenes are shifted
by unknown forces, and the commencement, plot and end
are still unknown are still unguessed. One by one the
players leave the stage, and others take their places. There
is no pause the play goes on. No prompter's voice is
heard, and no one has the slightest clue to what the next
scene is to be.

Will this great drama have an end ? Will the curtain
fall at last? Will it rise again upon some other stage?
Reason says perhaps, and Hope still whispers yes.

http://www.archive.org/stream/worksofrobertgin12ingeiala/worksofrobertgin12ingeiala_djvu.txt

[Details]

I don't know either - but you seem a bit harsh on this. Yes, it is like the lottery - I don't know, and without any scientific, any factual, any anything to suggest an afterlife, the odds of there being one, to me, appear like the odds that I win the lottery.

And I'm not getting anything from being indoctrinated by other veteran atheists - I'm not part of any atheist organizations, forums, etc. - because it isn't a religion or a belief system - it's the lack of one. I do think this life is it, and think that's the only way to live, since no afterlife is proven - if one should exist - it'd be a pleasant bonus - but to live like it is real is like spending money like I'm going to win the lottery next year.

Yeah, there are silly atheists, just like there are silly believers who indoctrinate - that doesn't make all atheists one unified front with those beliefs.



However - I was replying to a post by a believer - who spoke about praying for the poor atheists not getting it, and how awful it would be to have to face death of a loved one, without knowing I would see my grandmother again. It's a frequent point made - to point out the benefits of Christianity, as if belief would change the reality. That is why I was pointing out that I can't believe something is real if I don't really believe it is real. I can't say, "Oh, I'd love to see my wonderful Grandma again - so I now believe in Christianity."

[Doc Holliday]

I don't know either - but you seem a bit harsh on this.

Sorry - I guess I was speaking from personal experience with New Atheists, most of whom seem to be about 16 yrs old and full of fury and hate.

Yes, it is like the lottery - I don't know, and without any scientific, any factual, any anything to suggest an afterlife, the odds of there being one, to me, appear like the odds that I win the lottery.


I bought a lottery ticket the other day and it's still in my wallet. Before the drawing is held I can go to the lottery website and calculate the exact odds that I win. How can one calculate the odds of a possible future existence?

I think all one is justified in doing is to express an opinion that an afterlife is highly unlikely, but to compare it to physical events in the known universe is to commit an error.

[Doc Holliday]

However - I was replying to a post by a believer ...

By the way, Details, I could have just posted my post without quoting spidereater.

I didn't have you in mind at all when I wrote my post and I don't want you to think that I had any 'harshness' pointed your way or that I was implying anything about you.

Not in the least! You are always one of my favorite people here.

[Details]

Sorry - I guess I was speaking from personal experience with New Atheists, most of whom seem to be about 16 yrs old and full of fury and hate.



I bought a lottery ticket the other day and it's still in my wallet. Before the drawing is held I can go to the lottery website and calculate the exact odds that I win. How can one calculate the odds of a possible future existence?

I think all one is justified in doing is to express an opinion that an afterlife is highly unlikely, but to compare it to physical events in the known universe is to commit an error.New Atheists are not any different to me than New Christians - same age, same deal - they think they know how the world works - to me, it's a teenager thing. Doesn't matter the subject, economics or religion (welfare types just don't want to work, business and profit is evil, Jesus is our savior and anyone who doesn't follow HIS rules is evil, there is no (lower case)god, and that truth must be pushed down everyone's throat) - it's the teenager thing, teenager passion. It's why so many great discoveries are made early in life - and it's why we don't let teenagers do too much.



The lottery ticket, like the afterlife, in a lot of ways, is either a winner or not - that fact is true, you just don't know which until the time comes.


I'm looking at is as the odds of an afterlife existing, without any ability for us to detect it, for those in the afterlife to contact in a substantial verifiable way, etc. Obviously - were those in the afterlife able to contact the living - almost everyone in the world would have had the experience - that would confirm it.

I do think you can at least guesstimate the odds. Of course, there is one true reality - and none of us knows what it is - but the odds of one reality versus another being true - that's something we discuss all the time in trials - look to the evidence, and figure the odds of one reality (he killed her) versus another reality (he didn't kill her). Only one is true, and we might never find out for sure which it is - but you can still look and say - with this set of evidence, it's a near certainty, million to one odds, that he killed her, with this set of evidence, I can't be more than 50% sure he killed her.

[Details]

By the way, Details, I could have just posted my post without quoting spidereater.

I didn't have you in mind at all when I wrote my post and I don't want you to think that I had any 'harshness' pointed your way or that I was implying anything about you.

Not in the least! You are always one of my favorite people here.No problem - and likewise - you've always been a favorite - which is why it was important to me to clarify that my type of view is not something from any type of atheist extremist points of view. It's simply just mine.

[MoonFlwr]

Do I believe in G_D? I don't know. I DO believe there is more to life in the Universe than what is portrayed on Earth. Seems silly to me that we could perceive the idea that is G_D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. ~~Carl Sagan~~

Man! You quoted one of my favourite, favourite pieces of writing! I, too, had a (did a poster call it a 'wall-hitting' moment?), when I read that!
What an eye-opening piece of writing it is....and it continues to crop up again every so often...each time helping to create clarity for me, on the bigger picture.

[spidereater]

<snipped> I don't imagine for a second that death is extinction. I simply don't know.

<snipped>

Such is the fervor of the New Atheist whose religious faith is as strong as any Bible Fundamentalist.

thank you for your thoughts. i hope you don't mind my snipping two parts of your post that i find particularly interesting and on which i would like to comment.

regarding the first, if death isn't extinction, doesn't that mean an afterlife? it seems obvious and inescapable to me that once the body dies, life in any form is over - so the idea that there might be some part of me that will escape that finality seems utterly preposterous.

could you please elaborate on the other statement? why do you label the fervor of an atheist as "religious faith"?

and one last thing, what is a New Atheist?

thank you!

[Doc Holliday]

thank you for your thoughts. i hope you don't mind my snipping two parts of your post that i find particularly interesting and on which i would like to comment.

regarding the first, if death isn't extinction, doesn't that mean an afterlife? it seems obvious and inescapable to me that once the body dies, life in any form is over - so the idea that there might be some part of me that will escape that finality seems utterly preposterous.

could you please elaborate on the other statement? why do you label the fervor of an atheist as "religious faith"?

and one last thing, what is a New Atheist?

thank you!

Snipping is always allowed, spidereater.

I hijacked the term "New Atheist" for my own use to describe the type of emotionally immature person you meet on the internet who has no respect for any religious beliefs at all and only wants to use adult language while mocking faith beliefs (thus showing that they have the emotional maturity of a young teen).

There is another definition though, the real one, and you might find it on this blog: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/

Chris (an atheist) and Sheril (an agnostic) have their latest book out which is called "Unscientific America", and they level some criticism at the so-called New Atheists.

As for a possible afterlife, who the heck knows? I could babble on for hours and talk about a thousand websites and ideas and so forth. I guess, along one dimension, it all comes down to one's personal philosophy and whether you are more materialist/physicalist or tend towards the idealistic end of the spectrum, combined with certain ideas of cosmology.

Besides, and more in line with my post, I was simply saying that if an afterlife is someplace else, or, some other time, then there is no way to examine such a belief scientifically, or subject it to any probability calculations. In contrast, people who believe that you have a supernatural soul that floats away from your body at death are expressing a belief about something that is interacting with the laws of physics in this universe, and thus should be, in principle at least, subject to scientific testing.

[LisaM22]

thank you for your thoughts. i hope you don't mind my snipping two parts of your post that i find particularly interesting and on which i would like to comment.

regarding the first, if death isn't extinction, doesn't that mean an afterlife? it seems obvious and inescapable to me that once the body dies, life in any form is over - so the idea that there might be some part of me that will escape that finality seems utterly preposterous.

could you please elaborate on the other statement? why do you label the fervor of an atheist as "religious faith"?

and one last thing, what is a New Atheist?

thank you!

I think that means the ones that say with as much certainty there is NO afterlife as those that claim to know with certainty what that after life is and the rules that govern it - in other words the opposite end of the spectrum from the religious fanatics

[Hannibal]

I believe God exist....but isn't good as we humans define good...

The bible says God is a selfish God and I believe that...

so while Satan/the Devil is evil God isn't good in our sense of the word..
That's why he allows all the evil things in this world to persist..I believe and all the pain and anguish...

When I lost my wife back in 2001 and then a few months later my mom..I came to this conclusion...

:angry::angry:

[Nic99]

I believe God exist....but isn't good as we humans define good...

The bible says God is a selfish God and I believe that...

so while Satan/the Devil is evil God isn't good in our sense of the word..
That's why he allows all the evil things in this world to persist..I believe and all the pain and anguish...

When I lost my wife back in 2001 and then a few months later my mom..I came to this conclusion...

:angry::angry:

I'm really sorry for your loss Hannibal. I, too, believe in God, but don't understand why good people have to leave us like they do? It just doesn't seem fair imo. It does make me question 'why'.

[Doc Holliday]

Ah yes, the problem of evil. Why do such bad things happen if God is all-powerful and all-good?

I remember this book review by Martin Gardner where he discusses it.

If God were obliged to prevent all accidents that kill or injure, he would have to be constantly poking his fingers into millions of events around the globe. History would turn into a chaos of endless miracles.

http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/The-price-we-pay-3949

As Gardner says, it's not going to be an argument that persuades an atheist, but it might strike a chord with a theist who is perplexed by the problem of evil.

God might still be 'all-powerful' even though there are things He can't do, like make two plus two equal five, or erase your grandparents from history, or keep sticking his finger into the laws of physics.

And maybe a future existence in a better environment will make up for the sufferings in this one.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. I, of course, don't have a clue what the truth of the matter is.

[EMAA]

It just really amazes me how some will take ever single word someone else has to say as gospel and yet the oldest document recorded is called a myth.

God is good and has said what the consequences are for certain things. He made a statement and if He did something contrary to what He's already said then it would make God a liar. jmho

[doradoll]

I am agnostic. One thing that surprises me with those that believe in Heaven is when someone dies, people aren't rejoicing as I would expect if they believed that their loved one is in heaven. I don't understand that. I mean, I can see being sad for one's self, but I rarely see the joy of letting one go to Heaven.

I am a nurse and have watched so many people die. I have yet to encounter a patient that was anxious to go or family that was happy for them.

I am not being judgemental in a negative way, I am simply curious. I have coworkers who are devout Christians that don't want to take care of a dying patient. I have asked them if the believe in Heaven why are they afraid?

I personally find peace in letting someone pass that is suffering; simply for the fact that they get relief from their pain. Even when I walked into my Mother's room and recognized that she was dying after a brain hemorrhage (weeks past the actual bleed), I was so happy for her that she wouldn't have to live blind, confused and paralyzed like she was. I cried for myself later and miss her everyday.

I suppose this is why I don't like or appreciate funerals. I think the time and money would be better spent with the people when they were alive.

I do get a peaceful feeling in a church, though. Just the beauty of it and the intended goodness of it's purpose.

Thoughts to ponder on a rainy day here.

[Nic99]

I am agnostic. One thing that surprises me with those that believe in Heaven is when someone dies, people aren't rejoicing as I would expect if they believed that their loved one is in heaven. I don't understand that. I mean, I can see being sad for one's self, but I rarely see the joy of letting one go to Heaven.

I am a nurse and have watched so many people die. I have yet to encounter a patient that was anxious to go or family that was happy for them.

I am not being judgemental in a negative way, I am simply curious. I have coworkers who are devout Christians that don't want to take care of a dying patient. I have asked them if the believe in Heaven why are they afraid?

I personally find peace in letting someone pass that is suffering; simply for the fact that they get relief from their pain. Even when I walked into my Mother's room and recognized that she was dying after a brain hemorrhage (weeks past the actual bleed), I was so happy for her that she wouldn't have to live blind, confused and paralyzed like she was. I cried for myself later and miss her everyday.

I suppose this is why I don't like or appreciate funerals. I think the time and money would be better spent with the people when they were alive.

I do get a peaceful feeling in a church, though. Just the beauty of it and the intended goodness of it's purpose.

Thoughts to ponder on a rainy day here.

What an eloquent post and I can totally understand where you are coming from. I suppose imo your friends who are Christians are almost grieving for their loss in a way. For, if they are Christians, as you say, they will have faith that their loved one is going to a better place, heaven.

I don't know, I have too many questions and wish that I had the strong faith that some of my Christian friends have, but I question so much at times. Maybe one day.....

[Patriot]

What an eloquent post and I can totally understand where you are coming from. I suppose imo your friends who are Christians are almost grieving for their loss in a way. For, if they are Christians, as you say, they will have faith that their loved one is going to a better place, heaven.

I don't know, I have too many questions and wish that I had the strong faith that some of my Christian friends have, but I question so much at times. Maybe one day.....


Why do you think faith and questioning are mutually exclusive? They aren't. :)


Mark (Chap. 9) tells the story of Jesus walking and coming upon his disciples, and a "great multitude" of people gathering around them. When they saw Jesus, the father of a young man who needed healing since childhood ran to Him and begged for healing for his Son. Jesus ecouraged the father to believe, that all things are possible if he would believe. Next -

"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

And Jesus took compassion on the man and son and healed him.



Yet, after Jesus was crucified, He appeared to his disciples, but Thomas was not with them, so he did not witness Jesus appearing. When they told Thomas about it, he refused to believe it, saying that only when he sees Jesus for himself and touches him, will he believe it. Eight days later, Jesus appeared to them again -this time Thomas was present- and Thomas believed. Jesus did not have the same compassion for Thomas that He had for the father, instead He rebuked Thomas, saying "blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe". (John 20)


The difference in the two men and the attitude Jesus had toward each is that one wanted to believe and overcome his doubt, the other would not even attempt to believe. God isn't offended by doubt, only stubborness. :)

[Andy1]

I am agnostic. One thing that surprises me with those that believe in Heaven is when someone dies, people aren't rejoicing as I would expect if they believed that their loved one is in heaven. I don't understand that. I mean, I can see being sad for one's self, but I rarely see the joy of letting one go to Heaven.

I am a nurse and have watched so many people die. I have yet to encounter a patient that was anxious to go or family that was happy for them.

I am not being judgemental in a negative way, I am simply curious. I have coworkers who are devout Christians that don't want to take care of a dying patient. I have asked them if the believe in Heaven why are they afraid?

I personally find peace in letting someone pass that is suffering; simply for the fact that they get relief from their pain. Even when I walked into my Mother's room and recognized that she was dying after a brain hemorrhage (weeks past the actual bleed), I was so happy for her that she wouldn't have to live blind, confused and paralyzed like she was. I cried for myself later and miss her everyday.

I suppose this is why I don't like or appreciate funerals. I think the time and money would be better spent with the people when they were alive.

I do get a peaceful feeling in a church, though. Just the beauty of it and the intended goodness of it's purpose.

Thoughts to ponder on a rainy day here.

I think it's still sad to let a loved one go even if they are a Christian and you know they are going to a better place, they will be missed here and now

[Gary_Tibbs]

What an eloquent post and I can totally understand where you are coming from. I suppose imo your friends who are Christians are almost grieving for their loss in a way. For, if they are Christians, as you say, they will have faith that their loved one is going to a better place, heaven.

I don't know, I have too many questions and wish that I had the strong faith that some of my Christian friends have, but I question so much at times. Maybe one day.....

I beieve our spiritual self is our more natural self. There is more to life than we understand.

[Carol25]

Why do you think faith and questioning are mutually exclusive? They aren't. :)


Mark (Chap. 9) tells the story of Jesus walking and coming upon his disciples, and a "great multitude" of people gathering around them. When they saw Jesus, the father of a young man who needed healing since childhood ran to Him and begged for healing for his Son. Jesus ecouraged the father to believe, that all things are possible if he would believe. Next -

And Jesus took compassion on the man and son and healed him.

Yet, after Jesus was crucified, He appeared to his disciples, but Thomas was not with them, so he did not witness Jesus appearing. When they told Thomas about it, he refused to believe it, saying that only when he sees Jesus for himself and touches him, will he believe it. Eight days later, Jesus appeared to them again -this time Thomas was present- and Thomas believed. Jesus did not have the same compassion for Thomas that He had for the father, instead He rebuked Thomas, saying "blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe". (John 20)


The difference in the two men and the attitude Jesus had toward each is that one wanted to believe and overcome his doubt, the other would not even attempt to believe. God isn't offended by doubt, only stubborness. :)
Thank you for this review, Patriot. It's so comforting to hear the words of Jesus again.

[Patriot]

Thank you for this review, Patriot. It's so comforting to hear the words of Jesus again.

YW. I just hate to see someone beat up on themselves for doubting. It's needless guilt....at least IMO from what I see in Scripture. The only time it's wrong is when it overcomes faith. God wants us to come to Him with everything, even our doubts. :)

[spidereater]

<snipped> God wants us to come to Him with everything, even our doubts. :)i did, and was met with silence. happily, it was the best thing that every happened to me - i am now a grateful agnostic!!

[orangetaffy]

I believe in God the father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Brentwood]

I do not believe that there is an individual who is God. I believe there is a collective of love, order, serenity that is God.

[crocdog1]

I believe in God the father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

So do I.

However, I do not believe that some Right Wing Republican Fundamental Protestants should be able to force their very stong faith based beliefs, convictions, and tenets on me, as a Christian, or others such as Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Agnostics, Atheists, and so forth and so on. JMHO

[orangetaffy]

So do I.

However, I do not believe that some Right Wing Republican Fundamental Protestants should be able to force their very stong faith based beliefs, convictions, and tenets on me, as a Christian, or others such as Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Agnostics, Atheists, and so forth and so on. JMHO

Nor would I. That is why I am against ANY faith based programs in the govt. I was shocked to see where Obama has held on to the faith based initiatives that Bush started.

[Emerald]

I was against "faith based initiatives". Then, I moved to a very small town about 2 years ago. Everything in the area focuses around the church. Not so much the religion, but the building. It's more of a community center, providing beginning of school grooming/dressing/medical services, tutoring. Also serves as the local community food bank, and voting precint.

I'm not a Christian, Muslim, Jew, agnostic or athiest. Consider myself spiritual. Prefer to be in/of the World, not just riding it through space until I die.

So called faith-based initiatives provide much needed community services which have nothing to do with religion, IMO. If that's what it takes to get by or get through to other humans that we are the top of the food chain, with nowhere to turn for survival of the species, then so be it.

Amen:lol:

JMO

[LisaM22]

I beieve our spiritual self is our more natural self. There is more to life than we understand.

as do I, I believe in a higher power, just not a jealous god that sits in judgment of whether you believe in him or not up in the sky, I believe we have many lives with which to learn

[Tennessean]

The answer to your question is yes, I believe in God, and no I do not need to attempt to prove it to anyone.

[LisaM22]

no one needs to prove what they "believe" to anyone, I believe what I believe, others believe what they believe, if there was definite proof of anyone's beliefs, we would all believe the same thing, this is a free country, a country of many beliefs, that is why separation of church and state is so important

I believe in reincarnation, but can I prove it to others, no, but that is what I believe based on my own experiences, we each have to find the truth for ourselves

[GentleBreeze]

Yes, I believe in God.

imo

[flipflop]

Yes, I believe in God. :thumbup:

[EMAA]

Yes, I believe in God.

[Wukong]

Yes, I believe in God! :)