June 1 to June 30

[n/t]

Morning all,

Not much in the news except that a memorial is planned for Saturday at 1 pm. at Calvary Church, 65 Lansdowne Ave. It seats 1100 people. Are any of the locals who post here going? :rose:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/06/01/9635391-sun.html

[n/t]

Officers will spend Monday searching along the westbound shoulder of Highway 401 between Cambridge, Ont., and Woodstock.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090601/stafford_search_090601/20090601/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[n/t]

OPP say they have uncovered "items of interest" in the search for the girls remains. CTV reports the discovery was made as OPP teams searched along Highway 6 near Fergus over the weekend, but Oxford OPP will not confirm the reports

:unsure:

http://www.myfmradio.ca/1057/wire/news/00007_Items_Of_Interest_Found_In_Stafford_Case_081 148.php

[BevAnn]

OH I hope it's something that leads them to Tori. :sad:

[Gugug]

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/missing+girl+turns+psychics/1547120/story.html

[n/t]

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/missing+girl+turns+psychics/1547120/story.html

They were so wrong! *sigh*

I can't help but question the what ifs. The amber alert being one. The slow to react by Oxford Police another (which includes releasing the sketch and then much later releasing the car). The obvious suspicions on the parents which have caused delays in getting the real killers and possibly finding Tori's remains.

[Hollyhocks]

They were so wrong! *sigh*

I can't help but question the what ifs. The amber alert being one. The slow to react by Oxford Police another (which includes releasing the sketch and then much later releasing the car). The obvious suspicions on the parents which have caused delays in getting the real killers and possibly finding Tori's remains.

Good morning!

Christine Hamlett has updated her site for anyone who is interested.

http://www.christinehamlett.com/index.asp?pageid=150839

[Gugug]

Good morning!

Christine Hamlett has updated her site for anyone who is interested.

http://www.christinehamlett.com/index.asp?pageid=150839

Yes, she changed some things, too, like taking down the drawing of the pirate character with an eyepatch, and putting up one that looked more like Rafferty.

[n/t]

Yes, she changed some things, too, like taking down the drawing of the pirate character with an eyepatch, and putting up one that looked more like Rafferty.

The photofits don't even look like the suspects. :rolleyes:

[Gugug]

Are police still searching area landfills? I wondered why they only looked at certain ones. Are these the private landfills that are used by commercial waste disposal companies?

[Lovethechild]

Just checking in to see if Tori has been found....:sad: Had to take a break from here for a few days.....

[Gugug]

Hmmmm. She probably had some psychic connection to this website too. Shows the lake of the Rockwood Conservation Area and the old Woolen Mill Ruins.

People who posted comments on her site directed her to the Rockwood info when the police started looking there. The news came out in the media, then she posted the Rockwood info on her site.

[n/t]

I read her analysis of what she claims she got "right," as well as what has yet to be proved and what she got wrong. She's got some rather tenuous connections in her "right" file. Like MTR training as a chef. I know he said he did, but did he really? There were a LOT of other things like that, too.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as psychic "powers." That is not to say there are not people who are intuitive. But intuitive would mean they pick up clues, even if subconscious--not that they have some "otherworldly" connection.

Does anyone else find it distasteful that she brags about how "right" she was, when the fact of this case is a real little girl has been murdered? Or is that just me?

It's not just you. I hope she has a real job.

In the meantime, Tori is still missing and I couldn't find any updates. Very sad. Praying they find her remains in time for the memorial Saturday. :sad:

[north-eh]

I read her analysis of what she claims she got "right," as well as what has yet to be proved and what she got wrong. She's got some rather tenuous connections in her "right" file. Like MTR training as a chef. I know he said he did, but did he really? There were a LOT of other things like that, too.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as psychic "powers." That is not to say there are not people who are intuitive. But intuitive would mean they pick up clues, even if subconscious--not that they have some "otherworldly" connection.

Does anyone else find it distasteful that she brags about how "right" she was, when the fact of this case is a real little girl has been murdered? Or is that just me?

Hi everyone. Kittymama, you don't offend me in the least. I happen to agree. I think the only special powers we have is within ourselves and my favourite is to be positive and to show that side to others. I believe in God being the ultimate source though but the work is up to me.
This just so happens to be my opinion of course and everyone else is welcomed to theirs.

I pray they can find Tori before Saturday. Hubby and I plan to go to the memorial, I just feel compelled to be there.
Where can she be? :sad:
N

[brooklinite]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2009/06/01/9643846.html

Apparently MR is now heavily in LE's sights. No mention of whether he has broken his silence.

[cantstandnuts]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2009/06/01/9643846.html

Apparently MR is now heavily in LE's sights. No mention of whether he has broken his silence.

I just posted this on the links thread. It seems they are really losing hope that they will find her. :crying:

[brooklinite]

I just posted this on the links thread. It seems they are really losing hope that they will find her. :crying:

Sorry csn! I always forget about the links page.

[VC2]

I just posted this on the links thread. It seems they are really losing hope that they will find her. :crying:

Hoping to get the body location, what surprises me is that his attorney is allowing it. The deal cut may be with MR instead, especially if as many of us suspect it was TLM who was the violent one and masterminded this.

imo

[moonlite]

It's not just you. I hope she has a real job.

In the meantime, Tori is still missing and I couldn't find any updates. Very sad. Praying they find her remains in time for the memorial Saturday. :sad:

Greetings'
N/T'

I'm with you; I hope they find Tori's remains. I wish the police would say what concrete evidence they have to know that Tori is passed away.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Good morning!

Christine Hamlett has updated her site for anyone who is interested.

http://www.christinehamlett.com/index.asp?pageid=150839

thanks interesting even if not correct..I just wish they could find her all these kids going missing is so very sad:crying:

[aproudmom]

Morning all,

Not much in the news except that a memorial is planned for Saturday at 1 pm. at Calvary Church, 65 Lansdowne Ave. It seats 1100 people. Are any of the locals who post here going? :rose:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/06/01/9635391-sun.html

omg they are having a memorial:crying:so sad I hope they find her so she can be laid to rest in a proper way...guess the witch napper could not locate the area they dumped her...hope she enjoyed her helicopter rides

[n/t]

Gosh, it doesn't sound good.:sad:

Search area widens as investigation stalls

With investigators still regularly visiting accused killer Michael Rafferty in jail, there are signs the eight-week search for Victoria "Tori" Stafford may be stalling.

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1593964

[BevAnn]

Didn't him or her actually confess?? So WTH?? Tell LE WHERE she is already!! Torture still has it's place, in my opinion.... :angry:

[n/t]

Didn't him or her actually confess?? So WTH?? Tell LE WHERE she is already!! Torture still has it's place, in my opinion.... :angry:

We assume she did but we all know what happened when she tried to "help". They got nowhere! Total waste! :cuss:

[Gugug]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2009/06/01/9643846.html

Apparently MR is now heavily in LE's sights. No mention of whether he has broken his silence.

I have to wonder if LE is waiting until after the memorial service to lay more charges/make announcements. I wonder, and wonder.

[beespence]

Didn't him or her actually confess?? So WTH?? Tell LE WHERE she is already!! Torture still has it's place, in my opinion.... :angry:

I think they should go visit MR....tell him " you have 2 minutes to tell me where Victoria is"......or.....if he doesn't know....won't fess up....release him to general population....that might help his memory.

[n/t]

I think they should go visit MR....tell him " you have 2 minutes to tell me where Victoria is"......or.....if he doesn't know....won't fess up....release him to general population....that might help his memory.

I agree. It would give the cry baby a real reason to cry. :cursing:

[BevAnn]

I think he should have done to him, what he did to Tori. Yeah, let him out into general population. Or let Tori's parents around him unsupervised for an hour.

[omsk99]

I have to wonder if LE is waiting until after the memorial service to lay more charges/make announcements. I wonder, and wonder.

I am wondering about more charges, too. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), no charges for sexual assault or rape have been filed. I do remember reading TLM allegedly told LE that was why Tori was abducted. Not that it would matter in terms fo sentencing, since if convicted on first-degree murder charges, they probably will never be free, but still... Is it because they have nto found Tori's remains and thus have no physical evidence? But they did the same with other charges - charged them with murder without a body :confused:

[doctor_J]

I have been out of the loop a few days due to computer problems. Extremely disappointed to come back and find Tori still not found.

I'm extremely disappointed with the way this case is shaping up, also. MR is looking to be a much more skilled and intelligent manipulator than I anticipated. We know he is a prolific liar, but I wasn't under the impression he was an especially good one. I just assumed everyone on those dating sites lied and he was following suit. A guy so torn up and immature that he cries publicly, asks for his mommy, and pulls a shirt over his head should be relatively easy to interrogate and get some answers. Why has he been able to hold his tongue, before and after lawyering up, and fail to reveal this child's whereabouts?

Few first time criminals have the good sense to keep quiet when arrested. Many rapists and murderers, will quickly try to absolve themselves of some responsibility or seek favor with LE by claiming accidental death occurred or something along the lines of "I was helping TLM pull a vindictive prank. I had no idea she was going to kill the child. She was out of control. I feared for my life if I tried to save Tori."

None of these things seem to be happening. That tells me this man is possibly more criminally sophisticated than he seemed and also far more dangerous. Maybe he HAS been able to withstand hours and days of interrogation and hold his tongue because he is smart and evil. A bad combo. Maybe he knows that finding the body can only hurt his own priorities unless he gets a cherry deal on paper first. Without a body it will be very hard to prove that a murder occurred, much less which one of them did it. But at least one of these two has extremely valuable information, the location of Tori's remains. That info is so precious, it just might get someone off a murder charge and out of prison in a very few years.

[cantstandnuts]

Sorry csn! I always forget about the links page.


No need to be sorry, brooklinite. I think we actually posted each link at the same time, just on different threads. And since not everyone checks links first and sometimes not at all, it's good to get it on the main thread. No worries, with the obvious exception that this little girl is gone and she may never be found. :crying:

[cantstandnuts]

Hoping to get the body location, what surprises me is that his attorney is allowing it. The deal cut may be with MR instead, especially if as many of us suspect it was TLM who was the violent one and masterminded this.

imo


It is a definite possibility. Interesting thought, VC2. I am definitely one thinking she could have been the ringleader in all this. Also, add to all of this the fact that her charges were upgraded to murder and it is certainly possible that the "sweetheart deal" has had its roles reversed. IMO

[n/t]

I have been out of the loop a few days due to computer problems. Extremely disappointed to come back and find Tori still not found.

I'm extremely disappointed with the way this case is shaping up, also. MR is looking to be a much more skilled and intelligent manipulator than I anticipated. We know he is a prolific liar, but I wasn't under the impression he was an especially good one. I just assumed everyone on those dating sites lied and he was following suit. A guy so torn up and immature that he cries publicly, asks for his mommy, and pulls a shirt over his head should be relatively easy to interrogate and get some answers. Why has he been able to hold his tongue, before and after lawyering up, and fail to reveal this child's whereabouts?

Few first time criminals have the good sense to keep quiet when arrested. Many rapists and murderers, will quickly try to absolve themselves of some responsibility or seek favor with LE by claiming accidental death occurred or something along the lines of "I was helping TLM pull a vindictive prank. I had no idea she was going to kill the child. She was out of control. I feared for my life if I tried to save Tori."

None of these things seem to be happening. That tells me this man is possibly more criminally sophisticated than he seemed and also far more dangerous. Maybe he HAS been able to withstand hours and days of interrogation and hold his tongue because he is smart and evil. A bad combo. Maybe he knows that finding the body can only hurt his own priorities unless he gets a cherry deal on paper first. Without a body it will be very hard to prove that a murder occurred, much less which one of them did it. But at least one of these two has extremely valuable information, the location of Tori's remains. That info is so precious, it just might get someone off a murder charge and out of prison in a very few years.

Welcome back!

Revealing where the body is will undoubtly point to guilt. I assume his attorney is present at all times when LE is interrogating him and will not allow his client to answer questions implicating him to the murder.

Do I believe deals are in the works? Absolutely.

IMO, LE screwed this one up and they're now desperately trying to find Victoria's remains to save face. It's not working and this will go down in history as an embarrassment not only for Oxford County Police, OPP but the RCMP as well (if the limo ride was a set up).

Yeah, maybe they couldn't save Victoria's life but after 5 days or less, they should've known the parents were NOT involved.

I guess we all learned a lesson. Things don't always appear as they seem.

[doctor_J]

What would you do if you were the DA (or it's equivalent) for the crown and had to decide whether to offer MF a deal, something less than murder, on order to get his cooperation in locating the body. It is worth that?

It's not my child lying in the woods or buried in a shallow grave suspectible to predators so I can afford to be objective. For the greater good, he should face the maximum penalty if convicted.

Truthfully, If she were my child. I might reconsider. His punishment might take a backseat to having to live with the "unknowns". How would you relinquish that last hope that she could be alive without a body? They'd need a massive amount of blood with Tori's Dna, a vital body part, possible kept as a souvenir, or a videotape. I might not care about the greater good. I might pin my hopes on vigilante justice, either in or out of prison

If they offer him a deal, people will vilify them. If they don't find her body people will vilify them. And there's always a chance they will be aquited due to lack of evidence BARD without the crime scene, murder weapon, time and cause of death and the ability to distinquish who was the perpertrator and who was the accomplice. Not sure they can even prove murder if all they have is TlM's "confession"....
This case only get more and more disrurbing..

[n/t]

Surely, they wouldn't have charged these two with first degree murder without evidence? Surely, they wouldn't have told the parents their daughter is no longer alive without proof she was murdered? Surely, they must have some theory as to what may have happened to Victoria? Surely, they must have some idea where the murderers dumped the body?

Why are they visiting one of the suspects numerous times? Surely, they wouldn't need to do that if they had all their ducks in a row.

And why now? Why didn't the questioning occur on May 19th. when he was arrested? Did they have total trust in the other murderer to lead them to Victoria's remains by taking her on helicopter rides? Surely, that can't be.

[north-eh]

Good morning. Again, no sign of little Tori. Where oh where can she be.
I'm thinking too that MR is waiting to be offered a plea deal before he gives up anything because telling where the body is now points to his guilt of course. He wants no part of that.
There's only a few days remaining before the memorial. I hope and pray they find her on their own. :sad:
N

[Gugug]

I prefer the approach taken by a judge in Alberta. He found the murderer guilty, then offered him an opportunity to tell the court the location of the remains, with his cooperation to be taken into consideration in sentencing. The "consideration" was not specified.

The murderer did not cooperate. The victim's remains were scattered throughout Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I do believe that consideration in sentencing is a better alternative than making a deal that would reduce the charge. However, in this case I do not think it will make any difference at all, because I suspect there is more than one location, or no remains to be found.

I also believe that the families of the victim should be consulted before there is any deal at all. The families may feel quite differently than the general public about this.

[Gugug]

What would you do if you were the DA (or it's equivalent) for the crown and had to decide whether to offer MF a deal, something less than murder, on order to get his cooperation in locating the body. It is worth that?

It's not my child lying in the woods or buried in a shallow grave suspectible to predators so I can afford to be objective. For the greater good, he should face the maximum penalty if convicted.

Truthfully, If she were my child. I might reconsider. His punishment might take a backseat to having to live with the "unknowns". How would you relinquish that last hope that she could be alive without a body? They'd need a massive amount of blood with Tori's Dna, a vital body part, possible kept as a souvenir, or a videotape. I might not care about the greater good. I might pin my hopes on vigilante justice, either in or out of prison

If they offer him a deal, people will vilify them. If they don't find her body people will vilify them. And there's always a chance they will be aquited due to lack of evidence BARD without the crime scene, murder weapon, time and cause of death and the ability to distinquish who was the perpertrator and who was the accomplice. Not sure they can even prove murder if all they have is TlM's "confession"....
This case only get more and more disrurbing..

The courts can charge someone with murder without a body. We've seen documentation here of numerous Canadian cases where that has been done. It does not require a body part, nor even a great deal of blood. In one case, it took the testimony of longstanding conflict between two individuals, eyewitness testimony about a heated nighttime meeting between the two, some splatter marks in one location and blood on some shoes in another.

I think Kim Rossmo's book had it right. In the case of a young child, it is much easier to prove murder without a body. There is videotape evidence of the child being taken away, then the child never returns. Tori's young age will be a key factor in this line of argument by the prosecution, I believe.

However, physical evidence of some kind will make the case much stronger. In the missing women cases in Vancouver, it came down to some small pieces of evidence. Something small can be all the families need to have their questions answered.

[Gugug]

I have been out of the loop a few days due to computer problems. Extremely disappointed to come back and find Tori still not found.

I'm extremely disappointed with the way this case is shaping up, also. MR is looking to be a much more skilled and intelligent manipulator than I anticipated. We know he is a prolific liar, but I wasn't under the impression he was an especially good one. I just assumed everyone on those dating sites lied and he was following suit. A guy so torn up and immature that he cries publicly, asks for his mommy, and pulls a shirt over his head should be relatively easy to interrogate and get some answers. Why has he been able to hold his tongue, before and after lawyering up, and fail to reveal this child's whereabouts?

Few first time criminals have the good sense to keep quiet when arrested. Many rapists and murderers, will quickly try to absolve themselves of some responsibility or seek favor with LE by claiming accidental death occurred or something along the lines of "I was helping TLM pull a vindictive prank. I had no idea she was going to kill the child. She was out of control. I feared for my life if I tried to save Tori."

None of these things seem to be happening. That tells me this man is possibly more criminally sophisticated than he seemed and also far more dangerous. Maybe he HAS been able to withstand hours and days of interrogation and hold his tongue because he is smart and evil. A bad combo. Maybe he knows that finding the body can only hurt his own priorities unless he gets a cherry deal on paper first. Without a body it will be very hard to prove that a murder occurred, much less which one of them did it. But at least one of these two has extremely valuable information, the location of Tori's remains. That info is so precious, it just might get someone off a murder charge and out of prison in a very few years.

We know nothing about his criminal record, or if he has one. If indeed he does have one, we won't know until this trial is over. That's how it works. Unless a reporter finds out by doing some research...

[Gugug]

Here's another example of our justice system in action:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Convicted+Calgary+child+killer+given+conditions/1657598/story.html

[canada]

I am worried this case is fizzling without finding Tori.

[justmy2cents]

I prefer the approach taken by a judge in Alberta. He found the murderer guilty, then offered him an opportunity to tell the court the location of the remains, with his cooperation to be taken into consideration in sentencing. The "consideration" was not specified.

The murderer did not cooperate. The victim's remains were scattered throughout Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I do believe that consideration in sentencing is a better alternative than making a deal that would reduce the charge. However, in this case I do not think it will make any difference at all, because I suspect there is more than one location, or no remains to be found.

I also believe that the families of the victim should be consulted before there is any deal at all. The families may feel quite differently than the general public about this.

Was this case involving a child, i don't think as a parent, i would be able to wait until trial to find my baby...............this case stinks...........i am beyond frustrated and disgusted by the LE and all involved. This family needs their baby back.........WTF is wrong with these people. I would love for Tori's Daddy to have 5 minutes with this SOB. Since this started i have been up and down, this is without her being my child, as parents i can only imagine that the grieving has begun and the anger is really going to come. I believe in Karma but don't like having to wait for it to happen.

on a side note: My mom passed 3.5 years ago and last night she was in my dream with Tori..........hand in hand thats all and they were gone. Tori is in good hands just not her mom and dads and that is the most heartwrenching about this case................

[Gugug]

Remember the ugly confrontation on the street between Rodney Stafford and James Goris, the day of the PC that went wrong, with Tara flipping the bird, going inside, etc?

No, of course not, because nobody filmed it. Or if they did, nobody aired it. Why? Any news reporter/photographer's instinct is to shoot the action. So why ignore a huge blowout on the street between two of the story's main characters? Why ignore the police cars that showed up just as the two were winding down?

This is yet another question I have about the way this case was reported. This side of the story should have been reported in full. An ugly war of words on a public street by the father and mother's boyfriend in the case of a highly-publicized missing child? It should have been covered.

[moonlite]

We assume she did but we all know what happened when she tried to "help". They got nowhere! Total waste! :cuss:

Greetings'
N/T'

I think the good citizens of Canada, should be asking questions!! I mean allot of time and money spent with no results? Don't you think TLM, should be held accountable to the people for the money spent?

IMO' not only is it tragic that Tori has not been found. Yet' I do feel there is more than one victim in this case. I mean the tax payers!!!

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Here's another example of our justice system in action:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Convicted+Calgary+child+killer+given+conditions/1657598/story.html

Greetings'
Gugug"

I'm glad the Citizens of Canada are questioning the Parole Boards decision to release a pedophile back into society. I think everyone should be looking at what better can be done to protect children.
IMO' I think there needs to be allot tougher laws on pedophiles, not just in Canada, but here in the USA.

I hope something is gained; meaning laws changed etc' by Tori's abduction and murder. I'm glad they caught Tori's, perp's. However' I would not feel safe when the day comes her perp's are released.

Maybe' giving them a lifetime of parole, where they have to be held accountable for their where abouts could save one child's life.

Moonlite

[Orleaner12]

I think that once the Memorial service is over with and a respectful amount of time has passed the reporters will have a field day with this..they probably have lots of info about friends and relatives that hasn't been printed to date... I don't think this starts and ends with the two in jail at the moment. I don't agree with a suggestion to let "Rodney or JJ" have a turn...I don't approve of that type of justice.. it should be left to the courts. I also think that this search is still ongoing because the police need a body in order for the 1st degree to stick..otherwise the search would have wound done weeks ago....I also think that they only have the word of Terrilynn that Michael was involved and no other evidence.... all my own opinion of course...:wink:

[moonlite]

We know nothing about his criminal record, or if he has one. If indeed he does have one, we won't know until this trial is over. That's how it works. Unless a reporter finds out by doing some research...

Greetings'
Gugug"

I'm wondering if the police have checked about other children? I mean possible involvement of TLM or MR molesting children. Just my thoughts usually there is something in the perp's past.
Maybe the children are to scared to come forward? IMO' if my child had been associated with these two by any means. I would be asking them questions.
I would go as far back' with these two perp's, from their own childhood.
I bet the police would find other victims.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

I think that once the Memorial service is over with and a respectful amount of time has passed the reporters will have a field day with this..they probably have lots of info about friends and relatives that hasn't been printed to date... I don't think this starts and ends with the two in jail at the moment. I don't agree with a suggestion to let "Rodney or JJ" have a turn...I don't approve of that type of justice.. it should be left to the courts. I also think that this search is still ongoing because the police need a body in order for the 1st degree to stick..otherwise the search would have wound done weeks ago....I also think that they only have the word of Terrilynn that Michael was involved and no other evidence.... all my own opinion of course...:wink:

Greetings'
Orleaner'

IMO' it does sound like all the police have at this point is circumstantial evidence. I think finding Tori's remains would help answer allot of questions.

I agree' I don't think the case will end with just TLM, MR . I think others were involved.IMO

Moonlite

[Gugug]

Other girlfriends of MR were brought in for questioning, apparently in a none-too-friendly way, with police drawing their guns and handcuffing some, according to this report:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/05/23/9544196-sun.html

[Gugug]

Greetings'
Gugug"

I'm wondering if the police have checked about other children? I mean possible involvement of TLM or MR molesting children. Just my thoughts usually there is something in the perp's past.
Maybe the children are to scared to come forward? IMO' if my child had been associated with these two by any means. I would be asking them questions.
I would go as far back' with these two perp's, from their own childhood.
I bet the police would find other victims.

Moonlite

I wonder, too, especially after the article that said MR was fond of children, and had children's toys around. Neighborhood kids apparently hung out around where he lived.

[Gugug]

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16556

[Gugug]

Other girlfriends of MR were brought in for questioning, apparently in a none-too-friendly way, with police drawing their guns and handcuffing some, according to this report:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/05/23/9544196-sun.html

Wanted to point out other things of interest in the article:

Someone says he saw TLM being led away by police, with the pinkish white puffy jacket. Previous reports suggested TLM had disposed of the jacket. I had also read previously that an acquaintance gave TLM the white puffy jacket.

A neighbor saw TLM walking her dog mornings and afternoons along Tori's route to school in the days before she was abducted. Others saw TLM at the school with her dog, talking to a little girl.

[Gugug]

Sandra Schott murdered by her husband in Ingersoll in 2005:

http://news.guelphmercury.com/article/404165

Obituary for her husband, Edward Schott, in Tillsonburg newspaper:

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=301&x=obituaries_result&keyword=schott&order_by=dateofdeath&pos=0&xid=23051#23051

Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this appears to be James Goris' cousin. Please refer to the obituary for father, Kenneth James Schott.

For anyone living in Ingersoll at the time, this murder-suicide would have been widely known. Aren't some of the people involved in this case from Ingersoll?

[Orleaner12]

Sandra Schott murdered by her husband in Ingersoll in 2005:

http://news.guelphmercury.com/article/404165

Obituary for her husband, Edward Schott, in Tillsonburg newspaper:

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=301&x=obituaries_result&keyword=schott&order_by=dateofdeath&pos=0&xid=23051#23051

Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this appears to be James Goris' cousin. Please refer to the obituary for father, Kenneth James Schott.

For anyone living in Ingersoll at the time, this murder-suicide would have been widely known. Aren't some of the people involved in this case from Ingersoll?


you are a wealth of info....yes, to me that reads that this James Goris is a cousin....

[Gugug]

you are a wealth of info....yes, to me that reads that this James Goris is a cousin....

The "beloved father of" line makes me sick. Especially for the son, who is Sandra's child from a previous relationship, and no blood relative of Edward Schott's.

There is also another surviving stepson, according to the obituary.

Family lines are convoluted here, too.

Sandra Schott's friend, who was quoted in the first article, apparently lives in Woodstock.

[Gugug]

Sandra Schott's friend is involved in this program:

http://neighboursfriendsandfamilies.ca/eng/main.php

[Gugug]

And more on the murder of Sandra Schott:

SANDRA SCHOTT-CAW LOCAL 636

On October 27th in Ingersoll Ontario in a wooded area on a road that intersects with her home. Sandra Schott 32, mother of Nicolas 2, Alyssa 4 and Derek 11 was found dead in a burned out car by police. The case of the death was characterized by the OPP as a murder-suicide.

Sandra was a member of CAW Local 636 and worked at Woodingford Lodge in Ingersoll Ontario.

As recently as three weeks before her murder, police had been called to Sandra's home and escorted her husband off the property. Then on October 27th at 6 am the OPP received a call that began a massive search looking for Sandra and her husband using helicopters, cruisers and officers on foot in what they called a "serious domestic situation".

Members of CAW Local 636 are in shock and disbelief and are struggling to deal with the preventable death of their co worker and friend Sandra Schott.

Unfortunately again, action came too late for Sister Schott, her three children, her friends and family. It is yet another stark reminder that women in Canada are not only dying at the hands of men but also at the hands of governments who continue to provide inadequate protection and resources for women facing violence in their lives.

The outrage by both women and men in our union was instant and swift after learning about Sister Schott's senseless and preventable death. The emails I received from members included feelings of anger, helplessness, frustration and sadness but at the same time they expressed a sense of obligation to redouble our efforts through political action.

Ross Gerrie- President of Local 636 and Brenda McLelland wrote an article on the murder of Sandra Schott -both Ross and Brenda have received numerous calls from members of the Woodstock community wanting to be part of the CAW December 6th campaign to end violence against women.

CAW Local 636 would like to extend our sincere thanks to everyone who send condolences to our Local during this very difficult time. It reinforces our belief that "An Injustice to One is an Injustice to All."

The following are a snapshot of emails received from our members after hearing about the murder of Sister Schott.

* Words cannot express the anger and sadness that I feel. It seems that no matter how much we strive to make a difference, it doesn't seem to be enough. Sandra's death is senseless, but if we work harder in her memory, then at least she'll have women working on her behalf, and what a fitting memorial that would be.
* It makes me very sad to hear about one of our sisters losing her life in violence. May our hopes and wishes of violence against women one day be eradicated. If you have any contact with the family, please send along my condolences.
* Thank you for sending this email.....,I am sad but also more committed than ever to continue to fight!!!!
* In our training as advocates we are told that the first six months of relationship dissolution are the most dangerous and we are trained to treat women in violent relationships as potential homicides. Sandra's death infuriates and saddens me. I wish I had been able to able to have the opportunity to speak with her prior to her death. Maybe I could have helped?
* This workplace doesn't yet have a women's advocate. Maybe it will end when every single workplace with employees over 20 has a "Certified women's advocate" similar to the Health and Safety Rep...another one of my dreams.

From: http://www.caw.ca/en/3613.htm

[Gugug]

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=306&x=obituaries_result&keyword=Schott&order_by=surname&pos=0&xid=23091#23091

Sandra Schott's son a McDonald. This is a common last name.

[cantstandnuts]

The courts can charge someone with murder without a body. We've seen documentation here of numerous Canadian cases where that has been done. It does not require a body part, nor even a great deal of blood. In one case, it took the testimony of longstanding conflict between two individuals, eyewitness testimony about a heated nighttime meeting between the two, some splatter marks in one location and blood on some shoes in another.

I think Kim Rossmo's book had it right. In the case of a young child, it is much easier to prove murder without a body. There is videotape evidence of the child being taken away, then the child never returns. Tori's young age will be a key factor in this line of argument by the prosecution, I believe.

However, physical evidence of some kind will make the case much stronger. In the missing women cases in Vancouver, it came down to some small pieces of evidence. Something small can be all the families need to have their questions answered.

The OP wasn't about the likelihood of a conviction, it was about whether or not there should be a deal so that the accused would point to the body, thereby providing the closure this family seems to need. The question by the OP was would the family and LE want to make such a deal? (assuming I understood you Doctor J, correct me if I am wrong on what you meant, please.)

Convictions can be obtained without the body, yes, but families can't always get the closure they need.

If it were me, I think I might want a deal if it meant, that once and for all, I could KNOW for certain that the child I loved so desperately was indeed dead and that I was never going to see that child again. Only then, I think, could I be okay ever again...and even that is a stretch, because I don't think I could ever recover and be "okay" in the strict sense of the word. I would go for the deal, most likely and then hope to God for some vigilante justice, even though I ordinarily don't support that...if this were my child, I think I would be all for it, if not the person to actually deliver it.

Now, would LE and the prosectution want the deal? I am guessing Yes, because they're going to be damned if they do and damned if they don't (LE at least) and if I were them, I know I'd be damned either way and at least I'm going to be damned with a body to present to that family for the closure they need. IMO

[doctor_J]

I agree cantstandnuts. My points were 1) My opinion would be different if it were my own family vs. being an outsider looking at what is best for society in general. Everybody seems to agree. and 2) LE will be damned either way. I'm quessing they'll have to deal with MR and give the family closure. We know that will be best for them but for future little kids and persons contemplating pediphilia, its' not the best precident.

I think heads are going to roll after this case whatever they decide from here.

Thank you Gugag for the great research and links. I appreciate all those who keep us updated.

[doctor_J]

As we all know this case has really brought forward a huge problem for Woodstock and many small towns, drug abuse. Specifically Qxycontin. I hope whatever substitutes for the DEA in Canada will investigate the doctors in the area and get to the bottom of the overprescribing and redistribution of this dangerous drug.

[Gugug]

As we all know this case has really brought forward a huge problem for Woodstock and many small towns, drug abuse. Specifically Qxycontin. I hope whatever substitutes for the DEA in Canada will investigate the doctors in the area and get to the bottom of the overprescribing and redistribution of this dangerous drug.

I don't know what our LE is doing about this. Does anyone?

[Gugug]

The OP wasn't about the likelihood of a conviction, it was about whether or not there should be a deal so that the accused would point to the body, thereby providing the closure this family seems to need. The question by the OP was would the family and LE want to make such a deal? (assuming I understood you Doctor J, correct me if I am wrong on what you meant, please.)

Convictions can be obtained without the body, yes, but families can't always get the closure they need.

If it were me, I think I might want a deal if it meant, that once and for all, I could KNOW for certain that the child I loved so desperately was indeed dead and that I was never going to see that child again. Only then, I think, could I be okay ever again...and even that is a stretch, because I don't think I could ever recover and be "okay" in the strict sense of the word. I would go for the deal, most likely and then hope to God for some vigilante justice, even though I ordinarily don't support that...if this were my child, I think I would be all for it, if not the person to actually deliver it.

Now, would LE and the prosectution want the deal? I am guessing Yes, because they're going to be damned if they do and damned if they don't (LE at least) and if I were them, I know I'd be damned either way and at least I'm going to be damned with a body to present to that family for the closure they need. IMO

In Sandra Schott's murder, dental records were the only way to identify the remains. According to what I read, her estranged husband's remains could not be identified, but were assumed to be him.

In the missing women case in Vancouver, fragments of bone and teeth were all that remained of many of the women. Investigators seived the mud on the property to find fragments. This was not enough in many cases to proceed with charges. Only a few of the missing women cases were brought to trial, but the DNA from fragments of evidence was the proof many families needed to confirm their suspicions. Two family members revisited the site after the trial and shook hands with the murderer's brother. One felt an urgent need to wash her hands immediately after.

The Mahaffy and French families weren't consulted about their wishes in the Bernardo-Homolka case. This is optional for Crown prosecutors. Lobbyists for missing children have made this one of their objectives: consulting and informing families of victims about the prosecution of child murderers.

[aproudmom]

Other girlfriends of MR were brought in for questioning, apparently in a none-too-friendly way, with police drawing their guns and handcuffing some, according to this report:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/05/23/9544196-sun.html

:ohmy:omg no way...this is so sad and I have not been able to post to much these cases are really getting to me..and every time I think of just how this child was lured to a car and murdered and then this witch went on her helicopter trips to help find this child it makes me sicker this child needs to be laid to rest in a proper way I will never ever understand why we have so much EVIL I am getting very worried this child will never be found and it breaks my heart...:crying:

[n/t]

OPP update dated June 3rd. They're still looking for the grey backseat.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2009/03/c2734.html

[Gugug]

"What Everyone Should Know About Woman Abuse":http://www.wildsound-filmmaking-feedback-events.com/alan_powell.html

[Gugug]

Bringing your attention to the final paragraphs of this story:

"If they're looking for the rear car seat linked to a Honda Civic that sources say is owned by the man accused in Tori's presumed death, the landfill job will become all the more daunting.

A Tillsonburg company, Johnson Controls, makes those kinds of seats, Vermeeren says, and rejects end up at the dump. "A car seat to my (staff) is like a seagull -- you see a million every day.""

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/04/9670986-sun.html

Car seats like seagulls? Tillsonburg, eh?

[Gugug]

I wonder if LE needs to start looking for things that might have been used to move rocks and soil, like, say, any missing excavators in the search area:

http://www.helpsolvecrime.com/cotw/

This one is outside the search area, as far as I know.

[Gugug]

What if someone else moved evidence, a friend, perhaps?

[Gugug]

More stolen equipment, closer to search area:

http://www.oxfordcrimestoppers.org/Crimeoftheweek.html

[koawally]

:ohmy:omg no way...this is so sad and I have not been able to post to much these cases are really getting to me..and every time I think of just how this child was lured to a car and murdered and then this witch went on her helicopter trips to help find this child it makes me sicker this child needs to be laid to rest in a proper way I will never ever understand why we have so much EVIL I am getting very worried this child will never be found and it breaks my heart...:crying:

I arrived home about two hours ago from searching for Tori since Monday from sun up to sun down. My two St. Bernards and I were searching from Guelph to Fergus. There are still many out there searching. I've met people from accross Ontario. People have taken time off work to help search. There are even people who are not actively searching but stop to offer hot coffee and donuts for those who are. Tori is on everyone's mind...so many are helping in any way they can, wanting lil Tori found before Saturdays memorial.

I can tell you it is a very hard exhaustive search. Even in the rain no one stops searching. We know she's out there, somewhere, we all want a proper burial for this precious girl.:rose:

[n/t]

I arrived home about two hours ago from searching for Tori since Monday from sun up to sun down. My two St. Bernards and I were searching from Guelph to Fergus. There are still many out there searching. I've met people from accross Ontario. People have taken time off work to help search. There are even people who are not actively searching but stop to offer hot coffee and donuts for those who are. Tori is on everyone's mind...so many are helping in any way they can, wanting lil Tori found before Saturdays memorial.

I can tell you it is a very hard exhaustive search. Even in the rain no one stops searching. We know she's out there, somewhere, we all want a proper burial for this precious girl.:rose:


Who's organizing the searches? Is LE involved? TIA

[Gugug]

I arrived home about two hours ago from searching for Tori since Monday from sun up to sun down. My two St. Bernards and I were searching from Guelph to Fergus. There are still many out there searching. I've met people from accross Ontario. People have taken time off work to help search. There are even people who are not actively searching but stop to offer hot coffee and donuts for those who are. Tori is on everyone's mind...so many are helping in any way they can, wanting lil Tori found before Saturdays memorial.

I can tell you it is a very hard exhaustive search. Even in the rain no one stops searching. We know she's out there, somewhere, we all want a proper burial for this precious girl.:rose:

Thank you for your part in this search. It is difficult terrain, for sure, from what Google Maps shows. A big pat on the back to you and the other searchers for your efforts. So many strangers willing to help, despite their own discomfort and foreboding: that is the true meaning of community.

Are the searchers still looking near Drumbo, or Camp Impeesa?

[wishing4tori]

Remember the ugly confrontation on the street between Rodney Stafford and James Goris, the day of the PC that went wrong, with Tara flipping the bird, going inside, etc?

No, of course not, because nobody filmed it. Or if they did, nobody aired it. Why? Any news reporter/photographer's instinct is to shoot the action. So why ignore a huge blowout on the street between two of the story's main characters? Why ignore the police cars that showed up just as the two were winding down?

This is yet another question I have about the way this case was reported. This side of the story should have been reported in full. An ugly war of words on a public street by the father and mother's boyfriend in the case of a highly-publicized missing child? It should have been covered.

----------------------------------------------------------

This link has the only footage I have seen of the James Goris/Rodney Stafford confrontation. Just a few seconds of it in the middle of this report.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/15/9474891.html

[doctor_J]

I arrived home about two hours ago from searching for Tori since Monday from sun up to sun down. My two St. Bernards and I were searching from Guelph to Fergus. There are still many out there searching. I've met people from accross Ontario. People have taken time off work to help search. There are even people who are not actively searching but stop to offer hot coffee and donuts for those who are. Tori is on everyone's mind...so many are helping in any way they can, wanting lil Tori found before Saturdays memorial.

I can tell you it is a very hard exhaustive search. Even in the rain no one stops searching. We know she's out there, somewhere, we all want a proper burial for this precious girl.:rose:

Bless you, koawally. I will pray for you. Don't know if that will help but I'm pretty sure it can't hurt.:biggrin:

[doctor_J]

You'd think heavy equipment like a Kubota tractor would be hard to steal and all those things hard to pawn/sell/whatever they do with it to get cash. Theft is the bff of drug abuse.

[doctor_J]

Fact is, we all know this child could be anywhere. Above or below ground. Above or below water. In or out of Woodstock or Geulph (sp) or even Ontario. Would like to know of any travel MR did after Terri's arrest but I don't quess he uses credit cards. I'm sure they've got his cell phone but it hasn't led them anywhere. How frustrating! And I"m not even out in the bush and insects. I think I'd feel better if I were. At least I wouldn't feel so darned helpless...

[moonlite]

Fact is, we all know this child could be anywhere. Above or below ground. Above or below water. In or out of Woodstock or Geulph (sp) or even Ontario. Would like to know of any travel MR did after Terri's arrest but I don't quess he uses credit cards. I'm sure they've got his cell phone but it hasn't led them anywhere. How frustrating! And I"m not even out in the bush and insects. I think I'd feel better if I were. At least I wouldn't feel so darned helpless...

Greetings'
Doctor J'

You ask some very good questions. I was wondering the same thing about MR after TLM got locked up.

Can't the police ping his cell phone during April 8th through maybe the 10th ? Ok' I know' that might be far fetched for the police to be able to do!!! I know allot can be done with the cell phone.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

I wonder, too, especially after the article that said MR was fond of children, and had children's toys around. Neighborhood kids apparently hung out around where he lived.

Greetings'
Gugug"

I really hope all the neighbors and anyone with a child that has come in contact with MR & TLM, are talking with their children. I don't think Tori is the only victim.IMO I think the way TLM stalked Tori is something for the Profilers to be looking at.IMO

Moonlite

[n/t]

It'll be a heartwrenching day tomorrow. :sad:

Tori :rose:

Strain precedes memorial for missing girl

The memorial will be held in Woodstock's largest church where Tori's mother, father, brother and aunt will speak.

Tori's friend Brooke McCoy, 8, wrote a song called "Never Forget Me" to remember her classmate.


http://www.canada.com/Strain+precedes+memorial+missing+girl/1665994/story.html

[koawally]

Who's organizing the searches? Is LE involved? TIA

LE is aware of the searches and have asked all neighboring residents to search their properties. Many in the community have organized searches. I live two 1/2 hrs away from Guelph. Between Guelph and Fergus is where I searched. We were to flag anything of interest.

Many people have simply come to search without even being asked. People everywhere want lil Tori found and out of the elements for a proper burial.

[koawally]

Thank you for your part in this search. It is difficult terrain, for sure, from what Google Maps shows. A big pat on the back to you and the other searchers for your efforts. So many strangers willing to help, despite their own discomfort and foreboding: that is the true meaning of community.

Are the searchers still looking near Drumbo, or Camp Impeesa?

Yes people were searching west of Cambrige.

[koawally]

Bless you, koawally. I will pray for you. Don't know if that will help but I'm pretty sure it can't hurt.:biggrin:

Thank you Dr_J...Prayers for Tori

Praying God hears our prayers TODAY!!!

[Hope4Tori]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/A...aspx?e=1600032

Church ready for huge crowd
Posted By Krista Seggewiss, SENTINEL-REVIEW (On-Line June 5, 2009)

If you don't go (to Woodstock for the memorial): Watch live streaming video of the memorial beginning at 1 p.m. at woodstocksentinelreview.com

If you go (to Woodstock for the memorial):

Where: Calvary Pentecostal Church, 65 Lansdowne Ave, Woodstock

When: Doors open at 11 a.m., memorial begins at 1 p.m.

Parking: According to Oxford Police Service Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland, there will be no parking on Lansdowne Ave. She said people can park in the number of church parking lots in the area.

Info posted on links thread as well.

Tori:wub:

[n/t]

Hope4Tori,
Thanks for that link regarding the livestream tomorrow. I'll be watching at 1.

Hope all my fellow posters will be here too. :rose:

[Gugug]

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/A...aspx?e=1600032

Church ready for huge crowd
Posted By Krista Seggewiss, SENTINEL-REVIEW (On-Line June 5, 2009)

If you don't go (to Woodstock for the memorial): Watch live streaming video of the memorial beginning at 1 p.m. at woodstocksentinelreview.com

If you go (to Woodstock for the memorial):

Where: Calvary Pentecostal Church, 65 Lansdowne Ave, Woodstock

When: Doors open at 11 a.m., memorial begins at 1 p.m.

Parking: According to Oxford Police Service Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland, there will be no parking on Lansdowne Ave. She said people can park in the number of church parking lots in the area.

Info posted on links thread as well.

Tori:wub:

I don't think I can watch. That is a hard one. Thank you for the information.

[moonlite]

Just reading that little Brooke wrote and will sing a song for Tori makes me all choked up here at work. It will be hard to watch.


Greetings"
ThinkTank"

Yes' I agree with you. Tori's case is sad and tragic!!! I just wish they could have found her body.

Moonlite

[north-eh]

Hi again everyone. I've had to take sometime away from this case it really has me down as I know it has with you all as well.
Koawally, I am so glad to hear of the searching you have done and to let you know it has not gone unnoticed, not by a long shot my friend, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

My hubby and I and a friend will be going to Woodstock tomorrow for the memorial and I must tell you that although I feel compelled to go I still am hesitant about it. I can't explain it I guess it just sickens me to have to go to a memorial service for a child that hasn't been recovered yet. It would be bad enough if she were but for her not to be there is just impossible to think about.

This dear family what they must be going through and the torture of not knowing where their baby is has got to the hardest of a lifetime. We should not be burying our children it isn't right, it's out of the natural order of things. To think these two charged sitting in jail playing God and refusing to say where the remains are. Sickening!
What good is TLM going to be and just what is her purpose of helping them again. GMAB!!

Is there anyone esle from this board going to the memorial service?
Thank you so much your a great group of caring people and I will talk with you all tomorrow when I return.
Blessings to Tori and to her family that are left behind. :crying:
N

[Gugug]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gUC0QFkc6owx6HDJuKXnbQLkDodw

[Gugug]

Very true, Moonlite, without a body there is no real closure. At least it is harder to come to grips.
My Dad passed away one summer, not too long ago, in a different country. We were supposed to meet three days later anyway so he could see his first grandchild. We missed him alive by three days and then missed the viewing before cremation by another day. I can only imagine how bad it feels to have all these missed moments and "what ifs" with a daughter or a son.

I do believe, in the next couple of weeks we will learn more facts about the search for Tori and what the items of interest in the Guelph area were for example. With 100 police officers on the case and dedicated volunteers like Koawally with St. Bernards there MUST be more evidence found than we currently know of. Then again, MR`s previous jobs as a meat packer and construction helper make me fear that he knows all the tricks of the trade to make evidence disappear.

Sorry for rambling on... I keep thinking about this: we are all aware we have to streetproof our children at a young age. What I like to get more clarity about is how to streetproof parents of newborns to make all the right decisions to avoid creating vindictive monsters down the road. Not everyone from a broken home turns out bad. So there must be some components that make it all good. It is said the early years from 0 to 6 are the most important ones. Still, with all that knowledge I see 4-year-olds that already show cruelty towards even younger children (and animals as someone pointed out before), 8-year-olds who approach other children in a sexualized manner and 10-year-olds with a strong criminal mind of stealing, break-ins and manipulating for advantages. There has to be a key in early childhood that may be hidden in all those parenting books or still needs to be found. Or maybe it`s just those drugs again and nothing else. Sigh.

Attachment parenting is one of the things that holds the key for at-risk children, I believe. In families where there are known psychopaths, parents must take it upon themselves to control what they can control. Genes are one part of the picture, but environment is the other. Parents need to educate themselves, do the hard work of being very involved in their child's life, and go many extra miles to prevent this.

There is no guarantee. No one can say for sure what causes people to become monsters. But loving, involved and empathetic parenting is a very good idea for at-risk children, IMO.

For more on attachment parenting, and Dr. William Sears:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gUC0QFkc6owx6HDJuKXnbQLkDodw

This is another good source:

http://www.naturalchild.com/

Here's another source of information:

http://www.justlikehisfather.com/

[n/t]

Dedicated Tip Line Opened
Victoria Stafford Investigation - 1-866-825-4222

WOODSTOCK, ON, June 5 /CNW/ - As the public continues to provide
investigators with information in regard to the Abduction/Murder of 8 year old Victoria Stafford a new "TIP LINE" has been established. The Oxford Community Police and the Ontario Provincial Police have opened a new "dedicated"
VICTORIA STAFFORD TIP LINE 1-866-825-4222 to assist the public in calling in information.

The VICTORIA STAFFORD TIP LINE, 1-866-825-4222, has been put into place to help investigators manage the steady stream of information that is coming in from the public.

Oxford Community Police Service Police Chief Fraser and Ontario
Provincial Police Detective Inspector Renton says "The intensive search for the remains of Victoria Stafford continues on all fronts and we are
encouraging the public to use this new TIP LINE to call in information."

Anyone with information about this investigation is asked to call the
Oxford Community Police Service at the VICTORIA STAFFORD TIP LINE at
1-866-825-4222. For anonymous tips, the public can call Crime Stoppers at 1 -800 - 222 - TIPS (8477) with their information.

Information about this case can be found on the OPP Missing Persons and Unidentified Bodies website at www.opp.ca, at www.oxfordcommunitypolice.on.ca
or America's Most Wanted at www.amw.com.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2009/05/c3777.html

[n/t]

Hi again everyone. I've had to take sometime away from this case it really has me down as I know it has with you all as well.
Koawally, I am so glad to hear of the searching you have done and to let you know it has not gone unnoticed, not by a long shot my friend, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

My hubby and I and a friend will be going to Woodstock tomorrow for the memorial and I must tell you that although I feel compelled to go I still am hesitant about it. I can't explain it I guess it just sickens me to have to go to a memorial service for a child that hasn't been recovered yet. It would be bad enough if she were but for her not to be there is just impossible to think about.

This dear family what they must be going through and the torture of not knowing where their baby is has got to the hardest of a lifetime. We should not be burying our children it isn't right, it's out of the natural order of things. To think these two charged sitting in jail playing God and refusing to say where the remains are. Sickening!
What good is TLM going to be and just what is her purpose of helping them again. GMAB!!

Is there anyone esle from this board going to the memorial service?
Thank you so much your a great group of caring people and I will talk with you all tomorrow when I return.
Blessings to Tori and to her family that are left behind. :crying:
N


I'll be with you all in spirit. :rose:

[n/t]

Victoria Stafford: a deeply happy child who loved ice cream but hated socks

WOODSTOCK, Ont. — Victoria Elizabeth Stafford did not have the easiest life. Her parents split up when she was 2 1/2. Her father admits he wasn't always around. Her mother admits an addiction to painkillers.

But by all accounts she was a deeply happy and well-adjusted child, surrounded by an enormous amount of love.

Her little body has not been found, but a memorial will be held Saturday to remember a girl those who were central figures in her short life - her father, grandmothers, aunts and uncles - say was a bright spark of life filled with love.

She was a beautiful, sweet baby, but would just not sleep. Full of energy, when Tori the toddler was put down for the night she would keep popping up and peering over the rail of her crib.

Her maternal grandmother's trick was the scratch her back to get her to sleep. It was a custom Linda Winters shared with Tori and that started with her older brother, Daryn.

Victoria's spunky spirit would abound for the rest of her almost nine-year life, as her relatives remember a girl who was always on the go.

"People should remember her as a burst of life," her aunt Randi Millen says.

She loved music as spunky as her, and whenever her uncle Steve Millen put on "The Hamster Dance" song Victoria and her cousins would start bouncing around.

The only times Randi Millen ever saw Tori sitting still were at Medieval Times - a Toronto dinner-theatre show that features jousting - and the Nutcracker ballet.

Even movies were difficult for the active child to sit through. The longer she sat, the antsier she got.

"She was always a little pistol," her paternal grandmother Doreen Graichen says.

As a younger girl she was more timid and quiet, but as she grew so did her outgoing personality. She was not afraid to talk to anyone and showed compassion for all people.

Tori was often hyper, but she was also loved to hug and to cuddle. She would spend many hours with Winters, sitting in a chair together, wrapped up in a blanket and reading the Bible.

In pictures, her white blonde hair and beaming face show a radiant little girl. In several photos she seems to have decided a simple smile would not suffice and instead flashed the camera a massive, open-mouthed grin that nearly enveloped her face.

That somewhat impish smile has been transmitted all across Canada and on flyers her family made when Victoria went missing. Two people have now been charged with first-degree murder and tragically the search for the bright, bubbly girl has become a grim hunt for her remains.

On Friday, police established a dedicated tipline - 1-866-825-4222 - for the public to call with any information that might aid the search.

In many regards Victoria was a typical eight-year-old, but while she was a giggly girly-girl she was also fascinated by insects and nature.

Victoria loved to play dress-up, staging fashion shows and painting her nails with her cousins and having tea parties. She loved to shop and had several T-shirts with that fact proudly emblazoned across the front.

Known as Tori to some and Princess Victoria to others, she loved the popular girl-oriented franchises of Hannah Montana, Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen, and Barbie and Bratz, Winters recalls.

And sparkles. She loved sparkles.

Victoria had a penchant for ice cream, especially bubblegum flavour. Winters remembers her picking out the pieces of gum one by one and saving them for last.

Little Victoria was also a budding artist, putting careful effort into creating beautiful birthday, Valentine's Day and Christmas cards for her relatives - often with a roses-are-red-"vilitse"-are-blue poem inside.

She was content to spend hours drawing and sketching and was happy as long as she had a pencil and paper. In fact, when no paper was available Tori would make do. Her dad recalls many an important document getting covered with smiley faces and stick figures.

But she was also a nature-buff and was constantly exploring the world around her. Victoria was always catching snakes, worms and salamanders - sometimes while wearing a dress.

She would even play with spiders and other bugs that made their way into the house.

Outdoorsy to the core, she spent what time she could swimming, biking, skipping stones and helping Graichen in the garden, taking time and great care to figure out the perfect spot for each flower she planted.

Victoria was in her element on a trip to Alberta last summer, surrounded by the beautiful mountains and nature.

"It was stuff that was supposed to be a lifetime of memories for her," Graichen says.

The little princess was a carefree, "fluttery" girl who would spend her summer days running across neighbours' lawns barefoot.

That neighbours spotted the little girl barefoot would come as no surprise to family members, who say Tori absolutely hated socks. She went without them whenever she could and her shoes would stink as a result.

Even in winter they would have a hard time getting her to put anything on her feet. The last time her father took her on one of their many walks, in the cold days before she went missing, Victoria wore only Crocs on her feet - with no socks, of course.

The refusal to wear socks even in inclement weather is indicative of the little girl with a big personality. And an attitude to match, her dad says.

Victoria had an ear-piercing scream that would sometimes come out when she was mad, sometimes when she was happy, and sometimes just for the fun of showing everyone how loudly she could scream.

When she didn't get her own way, Victoria would storm off to her room and slam her door not once, but twice. She was just learning how to best get her own way and could turn the waterworks on and off as needed.

But what truly upset her the most was fighting with her beloved brother Daryn. He was just two years older than his sister and she was always trying to keep up with him, all her relatives say.

Daryn is an A or B student while Tori was a B or C student, and it was a constant source of frustration for her. She didn't really like doing her homework, so she and her dad had to have a little chat about that. It would be one of the last times they talked.

Victoria and Daryn went through a lot together and had a rock-solid bond. They were everything to each other and would do anything for one another.

Whenever Tori was crying, protective Daryn would try to comfort her - even if he was the reason why she was crying.

"She never liked fighting with her brother," her dad Rodney Stafford says.

"Every time he got mad at her she felt like she was losing her best friend."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gUC0QFkc6owx6HDJuKXnbQLkDodw


RIP little one :rose:

[n/t]

Memorial to celebrate innocent life

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/06/9698111-sun.html

The Free Press will live-stream the service beginning at 12:30 p.m. at lfpress.com

[Hope4Tori]

Today I think this message deserves to be re-posted as it is IMO a beautiful and fitting tribute to Tori:wub: as composed by Streeter:wub: . . . I hope no one minds me re-posting it here today . . . .

Originally posted by streeter 05-21-2009, 02:15 AM

"Love your enimese."

Tori wrote those words inside a cut-out heart at church the week before she was taken. On Tuesday, May 12, two days after Mother's Day, Tara showed us some pictures and artwork by Tori. This one piece stood out above all the others for me. It appeared to have the same effect on her mother; Tara said that the paper heart, and those words, inspired her to write her Mother's Day letter to Tori.

She said that she will try to do what Tori taught her to do: love her enemies. She said that she was praying that the person who took Tori would look into their soul and find the compassion to bring her back to the people who love her. She said that the message "Love your enimese" helped her to get her feelings out. She said that she also found a piece of Tori's paper with "Love your enimese" on the top, and a line drawn down the middle with her friends on one side and her "enimese" on the other, and Tori was still working on the enimese side when she disappeared.

I feel that there's a reason for this. Bear with me.

Several years ago, while my aunt lie dying of cancer in the hospital, my uncle took a break from his bedside vigil and took a walk around the neighbourhood. He came along a bookstore, and went inside to browse, even though his mind was still down the street in that hospital room. He picked up a book and opened it randomly to somewhere in the middle. The words "How Do I Love Thee?" snapped him out of his detached fog and he immediately remembered that my aunt had given him a card on their anniversary with that poem embossed on the inside. He put the book down, walked a bit, and picked up another book. He opened it to a random page, and the same words, "How Do I Love Thee?" jumped off the page at him. He was spooked! I remember my mom told me this story as he had told it to her at my aunt's funeral, and chills went up and down my spine.

He was perplexed and desperate for an answer. He's not an overly religious man, but he went back to the hospital and sought out the pastor. He relayed the story about the two random books he picked up and opened to random pages to see the Elizabeth Barrett Browning poem, the same poem that had compelled his wife to buy that card for him. The pastor told him that he thought it was my aunt's way of sending a message to him at a time when she was too incompacitated to communicate.

At the funeral, the person who delivered her eulogy read the poem, explaining that she asked her husband to have it read out to her loved ones without mentioning HOW she asked him. I always loved that poem, but during that reading, it became personal for me. I heard her message. She was telling each and every one of us "I shall love thee better after death." It was comforting, excruciating, and exhiliarating at the same time. I can't express how much it affected me. (Last year, I chose it for the closing "prayer" when I married my husband.)

I've been thinking about Tori all afternoon, and I keep hearing her words and thinking about how they compelled Tara to finally, at long last, express some of her pain and make a plea for Tori's return.

Now that we know that Tori was already gone, and keeping in mind my uncle's experience, I've been wondering if Tori was sending a message. I know this is a stretch, especially for someone like me who is usually pretty practical and realistic. I just can't help but think that the past six weeks have been so full of suspicion, fighting, accusations, gossip, fear, and hatred. And in the midst of it all, Tori's message is one of universal love, acceptance and forgiveness. It's simplicity and innocence reminds us all -- and hopefully that includes Tara -- that, well, grownups can sure make a big mess out of things and we should follow the example of a little girl who was trying so hard to learn about forgiveness and acceptance.

My tribute to Tori is to never forget what she taught us by dedicating my sig line to her and her message.


:rose: "Love your enimese" -- Tori Stafford

[tia marie]

I just finished reading this page, and in a way, I wish I hadn't. It was so heartbreaking, first to see how beautiful a soul Tori was, I wish I had known her, and second, to see how this case has affected you all. What lovely people you all are to care so deeply for this child of God. I won't be able to watch the live stream but if one of you that does, will please add my prayer along with yours, I will be so grateful.

Love your eniemese.
Tori, you have taught me a lesson.:rose:

[n/t]

Victoria "Tori" Stafford Memorial Tribute

You are so beautiful.
Victoria Elizabeth Stafford
2000 ~ 2009


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWRXJ8DoLU

[n/t]

They're on air already showing images inside the church. :rose:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/06/9698111-sun.html

[brooklinite]

Apparently TLM "assisted" with the search for three days AGAIN this week...:unsure:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/06/06/9699596.html

[MoonFlwr]

Apparently TLM "assisted" with the search for three days AGAIN this week...:unsure:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/06/06/9699596.html

This part is seriously confusing. She is 'helping' search but it's taking so long. How does that add up? (I know this has already been commented on at length.....but still, it is hard to understand!)

Thanks to those who posted links to Tori's memorial service.

[n/t]

Beautiful memorial. :crying:

RIP Tori. You will never be forgotten. :rose:

My sincerest sympathies to the Stafford and McDonald family. :rose:

[kOOkie1]

The Memorial Service was beautiful and touching..What a sweet Angel-

I pray the Family finds comfort in the memories and wonderful images they share in their hearts of Tori:rose:

R.I.P.

[FindtheLost]

That was such a beautiful service. My heart aches especially for her brother. May her family find comfort and peace.

[Gugug]

On this day, three Globe and Mail articles caught my eye.

Vince Li, the Greyhound Bus cannibal, will not be free for another year. It was less than a year ago that he took Tim McLean's life. Li could be set free next year, or any year in the future if the National Parole Board decides to set him free. The media is now using the term "not criminally responsible by reason of insanity" in this and other articles, because apparently the general public does not understand the "not criminally responsible" term.

The "faint hope clause" that lets first- and second-degree murderers apply for release after serving 15 years of a sentence, is being reviewed by our federal government. Families of victims have lobbied to tighten up this clause. "Faint hope" isn't so faint, and families believe this has gone too far. On the other side, lobbyists for prisoners' rights say keeping criminals in jail is too expensive, after all, they should be encouraged to "rehabilitate" in order to get early release.

And Christie Blatchford's column discusses pay rates for lawyers who take Legal Aid cases in Ontario. Lawyers are signing a petition and boycotting Legal Aid. Many of said lawyers never accept Legal Aid cases. Blatchford discusses the benefit of notoriety and publicity to lawyers who do.

[Gugug]

Thanks a bunch for these links, Gugug.
I have been a proponent of attachment parenting since day 1 of my child`s life and it has made all the difference so far. It has enabled him to steer himself from inside out, while I noticed that some of the kids in the neighborhood that were mainly spanked and yelled at or simply neglected, start to act out when out of their parents` supervision. The key may just be the strength of the attachment after all. And then there is the genetic causes as per your last link. That`s very interesting information I am eager to read.
The link to the article on what a happy energetic child Tori was is just heartbreaking. A bright spark, torn out of her happiness in the blink of an eye. And yes, that happiness must have come from being well attached to the Stafford and MacDonald family, as scattered as they may have been.

The heartache of course, comes from the damage caused to the much-loved, and those who love them, by those who have not experienced the bonds of parental love and attachment early in life.

[tia marie]

I wasn't able to see the memorial today. Is it on tape anywhere?

[Gugug]

I wasn't able to see the memorial today. Is it on tape anywhere?

An article, for those who did not see the service:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2009/06/06/9700516.html

[n/t]

That was such a beautiful service. My heart aches especially for her brother. May her family find comfort and peace.

Poor Daryn. I bawled my eyes out when he spoke. I could feel his pain. When he said I'm your brother and I'm supposed to protect you but I guess I didn't...that's when I couldn't stop.

It was the most moving and heartwrenching part of the memorial along with the slide show presentation when we see Tori with her big smile on the big screen and you can tell how close she was with her big brother.

Here I go again......:crying:

[n/t]

An article, for those who did not see the service:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2009/06/06/9700516.html

Here's another

http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/canada/article/241211--tori-stafford-s-brother-breaks-down-at-memorial-for-his-beloved-sister

[n/t]

I must say that I have the utmost respect for all the family members including James. I thought they had a lot of class to come out in front of the entire country to pay tribute to their little girl, Tori. Especially after what they'd been through. The public suspicion, the criticism....it took a lot of class and I applaud them for doing this.

God Bless them and I pray Tori will get justice soon. :rose:

[north-eh]

Hello again everyone. What an incredible day this was.
n/t and all of you, this is one strong family and I'm not kidding. I hope you all got to see it online and see what an absolutely awesome tribute they paid to Tori.
There wasn't a dry eye in the church and Tara was as strong as ever with every member of that family showing the utmost strength and grace you can imagine.
I need to say this and I hope I don't come off sounding coy but Tara is truly a strickingly beautiful woman. She stands out in a crowd and she walks with grace and pois I have no idea what I was expecting but I guess I pictured her a lot different than what I even saw on the telly.
The whole family is pretty remarkable and speak well in public.
Daryn God Bless him couldn't finish his speach and Rodney well IMO he is one heck a great fellow. Of course I don't really know these people but I need to say that what I witnessed today made me sit up and take notice it really did. James was right there holding Tara's hand and took his place beside her.
To sum it all up I was honoured to be there and the slideshow did it for me, not a dry eye in the church throughout.

It was well planned and well delivered. I could see little Tori's face everywhere she was quite the beauty and they had pictures that I hadn't seen before. We didn't stay for refreshments afterwards but a lot did.

After today I pray even harder that those responsible for this will pay dearly for it. Today should NOT have been...so now we keep praying they find her remains so this family can truly lay her to rest as it should be.

Thank you for listening as I just wanted to share this very sad but memorable day with you all.
Little Victoria Stafford has gone home....:crying:
N

[n/t]

Hello again everyone. What an incredible day this was.
n/t and all of you, this is one strong family and I'm not kidding. I hope you all got to see it online and see what an absolutely awesome tribute they paid to Tori.
There wasn't a dry eye in the church and Tara was as strong as ever with every member of that family showing the utmost strength and grace you can imagine.
I need to say this and I hope I don't come off sounding coy but Tara is truly a strickingly beautiful woman. She stands out in a crowd and she walks with grace and pois I have no idea what I was expecting but I guess I pictured her a lot different than what I even saw on the telly.
The whole family is pretty remarkable and speak well in public.
Daryn God Bless him couldn't finish his speach and Rodney well IMO he is one heck a great fellow. Of course I don't really know these people but I need to say that what I witnessed today made me sit up and take notice it really did. James was right there holding Tara's hand and took his place beside her.
To sum it all up I was honoured to be there and the slideshow did it for me, not a dry eye in the church throughout.

It was well planned and well delivered. I could see little Tori's face everywhere she was quite the beauty and they had pictures that I hadn't seen before. We didn't stay for refreshments afterwards but a lot did.

After today I pray even harder that those responsible for this will pay dearly for it. Today should NOT have been...so now we keep praying they find her remains so this family can truly lay her to rest as it should be.

Thank you for listening as I just wanted to share this very sad but memorable day with you all.
Little Victoria Stafford has gone home....:crying:
N


Thanks for sharing North. I wasn't there but it felt like I was with you all. Tears rolled down my face throughout the ceremony but when Daryn spoke is when I bawled my eyes out and the slideshow was so well done. All I could think about is the happy times Tori shared with her brother and her entire family. It was so emotional to watch.

I was so proud of all of them. Tara, Rodney, Daryn and James. They did such a beautiful job in honouring and remembering their daughter and sister.

Tori, our little angel in heaven :rose:

[n/t]

Video on the right.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090606/stafford_memorial_090606/20090606/?hub=TorontoNewHome

:crying:

[north-eh]

n/t I just deleted my post it appeared we posted the same link. thank you.
N

[tia marie]

Thank You all for the links to the Memorial. They were quite moving. Does the police have any clue where the body maybe, are they still searching?

[Skraps]

I arrived home about two hours ago from searching for Tori since Monday from sun up to sun down. My two St. Bernards and I were searching from Guelph to Fergus. There are still many out there searching. I've met people from accross Ontario. People have taken time off work to help search. There are even people who are not actively searching but stop to offer hot coffee and donuts for those who are. Tori is on everyone's mind...so many are helping in any way they can, wanting lil Tori found before Saturdays memorial.

I can tell you it is a very hard exhaustive search. Even in the rain no one stops searching. We know she's out there, somewhere, we all want a proper burial for this precious girl.:rose:

Koawally, I haven't bumped into you yet out there, but I hope too. I will be the girl with the german shepherd. :glare:
After the memorial service today, I was driving towards Orangeville and saw a swarm of crows and turkey vultures surrounding something waaayy off in a field. A field that looked so much like areas the police were paying attention too. It was off a dirt road and I sat in my car squinting at the far off sight wishing I had my binoculars.
I got out of my truck and with my heart in my throat began the long walk through the field.... until I saw that it was a very unfortunate racoon.

God bless little Tori. I love you sweetheart.
May you be in peace and have the keys ready to tease, when your aunt comes to the gate to be with you. I just know, that my mom is with you too. So many are.

[Skraps]

Hello again everyone. What an incredible day this was.
n/t and all of you, this is one strong family and I'm not kidding. I hope you all got to see it online and see what an absolutely awesome tribute they paid to Tori.
There wasn't a dry eye in the church and Tara was as strong as ever with every member of that family showing the utmost strength and grace you can imagine.
I need to say this and I hope I don't come off sounding coy but Tara is truly a strickingly beautiful woman. She stands out in a crowd and she walks with grace and pois I have no idea what I was expecting but I guess I pictured her a lot different than what I even saw on the telly.
The whole family is pretty remarkable and speak well in public.
Daryn God Bless him couldn't finish his speach and Rodney well IMO he is one heck a great fellow. Of course I don't really know these people but I need to say that what I witnessed today made me sit up and take notice it really did. James was right there holding Tara's hand and took his place beside her.
To sum it all up I was honoured to be there and the slideshow did it for me, not a dry eye in the church throughout.

It was well planned and well delivered. I could see little Tori's face everywhere she was quite the beauty and they had pictures that I hadn't seen before. We didn't stay for refreshments afterwards but a lot did.

After today I pray even harder that those responsible for this will pay dearly for it. Today should NOT have been...so now we keep praying they find her remains so this family can truly lay her to rest as it should be.

Thank you for listening as I just wanted to share this very sad but memorable day with you all.
Little Victoria Stafford has gone home....:crying:
N

Thank-you for sharing N.
As Rodney was saying his tribute, I was waiting for him to say that he would love to see his little girl open the doors and walk down the aisle right now...
and you know what, it occurred to me at that moment that she did. Little Tori in her pretty white dress, did open the doors and walk down the aisle to her parents to be with them. She will be with them forever.

And in my mind, I ran my fingers over her brow to tuck a stray tendril behind her ear, then tapped her nose gently and blew her a kiss.
Rest in peace sweet baby. You so didn't deserve any of this. But like your aunt said, like your teeth on the case, maybe one day we will see the greater picture behind all of this.

I hope you dance.

[Skraps]

It's 11:11 - Tori's wishing time.

I wish you peace, sweet Angel.
Goodnight Baby.
XO

[moonlite]

Very true, Moonlite, without a body there is no real closure. At least it is harder to come to grips.
My Dad passed away one summer, not too long ago, in a different country. We were supposed to meet three days later anyway so he could see his first grandchild. We missed him alive by three days and then missed the viewing before cremation by another day. I can only imagine how bad it feels to have all these missed moments and "what ifs" with a daughter or a son.

I do believe, in the next couple of weeks we will learn more facts about the search for Tori and what the items of interest in the Guelph area were for example. With 100 police officers on the case and dedicated volunteers like Koawally with St. Bernards there MUST be more evidence found than we currently know of. Then again, MR`s previous jobs as a meat packer and construction helper make me fear that he knows all the tricks of the trade to make evidence disappear.

Sorry for rambling on... I keep thinking about this: we are all aware we have to streetproof our children at a young age. What I like to get more clarity about is how to streetproof parents of newborns to make all the right decisions to avoid creating vindictive monsters down the road. Not everyone from a broken home turns out bad. So there must be some components that make it all good. It is said the early years from 0 to 6 are the most important ones. Still, with all that knowledge I see 4-year-olds that already show cruelty towards even younger children (and animals as someone pointed out before), 8-year-olds who approach other children in a sexualized manner and 10-year-olds with a strong criminal mind of stealing, break-ins and manipulating for advantages. There has to be a key in early childhood that may be hidden in all those parenting books or still needs to be found. Or maybe it`s just those drugs again and nothing else. Sigh.

Greetings'
Thinktank"

Maybe it's genetics & environment that create the monsters. Maybe' if you take out one of the above mentioned factors; namely the environment. By that I mean' truly see what is going on in a child's life by how they are being treated at home. Yes' I know not all children who are exposed to bad parenting grow up to be thugs' etc. That is why I also stated genetics. I think the combination causes the monsters.IMO

Yes' I do think it shall be interesting to see what comes out the more Tori's case evolves.

P.S. I'm sorry about the loss of your Father.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Beautiful memorial. :crying:

RIP Tori. You will never be forgotten. :rose:

My sincerest sympathies to the Stafford and McDonald family.

is this taped on any sites I totally missed it all I could find was a little clip of her brother talking....TIA if anyone knows.,.not sure I can even handle it those couple of minutes were heartbreaking but still would like to see it...:crying:

[n/t]

Thank You all for the links to the Memorial. They were quite moving. Does the police have any clue where the body maybe, are they still searching?

Yes, they're still searching. I don't know if they have any clue but it seems like one of the suspects has been "assisting" them try to locate Tori's remains.

Here's the OPP update dated June 3rd.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../03/c2734.html

Here's one of the article that talks about the suspect "assisting"
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/06/06/9700811.html

[aproudmom]

Yes, they're still searching. I don't know if they have any clue but it seems like one of the suspects has been "assisting" them try to locate Tori's remains.

Here's the OPP update dated June 3rd.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../03/c2734.html

Here's one of the article that talks about the suspect "assisting"
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/06/06/9700811.html

n/t do you know if they have the memorial on video?? I was just able to see about 2 minutes of it and I missed it yesterday TIA if anyone knows...

[n/t]

is this taped on any sites I totally missed it all I could find was a little clip of her brother talking....TIA if anyone knows.,.not sure I can even handle it those couple of minutes were heartbreaking but still would like to see it...:crying:

Not sure if there's one for the entire memorial but if you go to this link on the right, click on "A family remembers a spunky little princess", it has a video. http://toronto.ctv.ca/

If I find a link of the entire memorial, I'll post it.

[aproudmom]

Not sure if there's one for the entire memorial but if you go to this link on the right, click on "A family remembers a spunky little princess", it has a video. http://toronto.ctv.ca/

If I find a link of the entire memorial, I'll post it.

ok thanks I have looked everywhere and could not find it..I feel so horrible missing it but had to get off here yesterday for awhile all these kids being hurt an murdered it breaks my heart...thanks a lot

[n/t]

Here's another link

http://video.lfpress.ca/video/_/_/5828787001/_/25553518001

[n/t]

ok thanks I have looked everywhere and could not find it..I feel so horrible missing it but had to get off here yesterday for awhile all these kids being hurt an murdered it breaks my heart...thanks a lot

OK...found it.

Go to this link and scroll down to the livestream box, click "on demand" and then click June and it takes you to the memorial.
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/06/9698111-sun.html

[aproudmom]

omg that was enough her poor brother blaming himself for not being there..:crying: I pray he is getting some help this is really going to bother him for the rest of his life he feels he let her down and no 11yr old should have to carry that burden for the rest of their life...

RIP SWEET TORI:rose:
UNTIL YOU ARE FOUND NO ONE CAN BEGIN THE HEALING..the not knowing has got to be so very hard..:crying:

[aproudmom]

OK...found it.

Go to this link and scroll down to the livestream box, click "on demand" and then click June and it takes you to the memorial.
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/06/9698111-sun.html

Thank you so much n/t appreciate it..

[n/t]

omg that was enough her poor brother blaming himself for not being there..:crying: I pray he is getting some help this is really going to bother him for the rest of his life he feels he let her down and no 11yr old should have to carry that burden for the rest of their life...

RIP SWEET TORI:rose:
UNTIL YOU ARE FOUND NO ONE CAN BEGIN THE HEALING..the not knowing has got to be so very hard..

I hope they're all getting help. The one I worry about the most is Tara. She's been the strongest and the one that's been holding it together. Everyone keeps saying she's a strong woman and she herself has admitted not able to show emotion in public. I hope she has a lot of support because the strong ones are the ones who, imo end up crashing the hardest.

:rose:

[n/t]

Apparently TLM "assisted" with the search for three days AGAIN this week...:unsure:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/06/06/9699596.html

I think they should have both of them out there at the landfill every single day until they find something. No protection gear, no food either. Just a bottle of water a day. :angry:

[aproudmom]

I am watching the memorial and all I have to say is NO FAMILY should have to go through this and NO FAMILY should have a memorial with out being able to lay their child to rest..NO CHILD should have to blame themselves for not protecting their little sister..and NO STATE should not have a Amber Alert system in place and a RSO registry..how in the He** are we to protect our children if the government protects these monsters...with that being said I will now watch this precious child's memorial and then do all I can to get my family who lives in Canada to help this family or any others in getting laws changed this should not be happening we have a child thrown in the woods by her mother we have a SS teachers throwing a child in luggage and putting it in cow shi* and we have someone killing a child and pouring concrete over her little body we have little Tori and Haleigh who has yet to be found along with many many others...THIS HAS GOT TO STOP:cursing:
In Memory of this child and all others this is my last word

P.U.S.H Pray until something happens it is up to us because no one else is going to demand changes do we see our government who strikes down these laws looking for their missing or murdered children? NO WE DO NOT and make them work for that seat make them promise to make changes or never vote for them again..I will stop at that sorry to vent but in the name of these children we must fight..

I was looking into some of the bills and seen Mark Lunsford wants to have tracking devices put on all High level RSO but because of money and family security our government would not accept this bill...the Jessica Lunsford act is in place 3 strikes your out well guess we are not using it IMO 3 is way to many times 1 is enough...

OK off to watch the memorial not trying to make this into politics but it is were it begins and ends and so far it s**ks

[aproudmom]

I hope they're all getting help. The one I worry about the most is Tara. She's been the strongest and the one that's been holding it together. Everyone keeps saying she's a strong woman and she herself has admitted not able to show emotion in public. I hope she has a lot of support because the strong ones are the ones who, imo end up crashing the hardest.

:rose:

I am very afraid for her also..it will hit her and I sure hope this witch is out looking for her little body they need her to lay her to rest in a proper burial..I noticed on other forums some still thinks she played apart in this and it is sad we all need to allow them to grieve now and not point fingers at this mother I know we all thought something was just not right but as far as I am concerned LE has the people and she has not been arrested she is a mother of a murdered child....I just listened to the poem wrote by Tori's aunt how sweet it was..so I am going to go and watch the rest and if anyone has petitions or anything to get things changed please let me know and I will pass them all on to my family

[aproudmom]

In Loving Memory of Tori:rose:

http://victoriatori-stafford.gonetoosoon.org/file/scale__600x500/50f1044bf8a67181fb7abb372b6bd531/330472_1242857076.jpg

[Gugug]

http://www.brantfordexpositor.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1584161

If only LE had made the connection between the Honda at the gas station from surveillance camera of April 8th and the suspicion of TMC that apparently Tara and James reported soon after the release of the suspect sketch. It would have exposed MR much sooner and left less time to dispose of the backseat and other evidence. Sigh.

They seized the footage early in the investigation, but the problem is that they did not look at it until after TLM started talking. I'm afraid that counts as an investigative error.

It would have been quite a different thing if they had actually watched the footage, but didn't recognize what they were seeing. Another problem is that they did not ask the owner if the time was correct, nor did they verify it themselves when they took the copies of the tapes.

Surely reviewing security tapes already in their possession (for the time period within about an hour of Tori's disappearance) would have been a logical thing to do. But they did not consider this a kidnapping.

[doctor_J]

All the links referring to TLM "assisting" in the search for 3 more days have been showing up as errors both yesterday and today. I think they were posted by brooklinite and n/t. Anyone find an article referring to this that has not been removed? Could it have been removed because it was incorrect??

[doctor_J]

For anyone that attended, were LE represented at the Memorial??

[puppyraiser]

Koawally, I haven't bumped into you yet out there, but I hope too. I will be the girl with the german shepherd. :glare:
After the memorial service today, I was driving towards Orangeville and saw a swarm of crows and turkey vultures surrounding something waaayy off in a field. A field that looked so much like areas the police were paying attention too. It was off a dirt road and I sat in my car squinting at the far off sight wishing I had my binoculars.
I got out of my truck and with my heart in my throat began the long walk through the field.... until I saw that it was a very unfortunate racoon.

God bless little Tori. I love you sweetheart.
May you be in peace and have the keys ready to tease, when your aunt comes to the gate to be with you. I just know, that my mom is with you too. So many are.

I'll be heading up that way on Friday (12th)to visit friends and plan to help out if there are any searches going on. I'll be the one with either a Golden Retriever or a "petite" black Labrador Retriever. Are there organized searches or are people just going out on their own or in small groups?

[north-eh]

I hope they're all getting help. The one I worry about the most is Tara. She's been the strongest and the one that's been holding it together. Everyone keeps saying she's a strong woman and she herself has admitted not able to show emotion in public. I hope she has a lot of support because the strong ones are the ones who, imo end up crashing the hardest.

:rose:

Hi n/t how are you doing??

I completely agree with you that although Tara appears to be strong that will not last forever.

Crashing is excatly what I was trying to say, thank you. I do believe this maybe the case in the future.
N

[north-eh]

Hi doctor_J here is a link to the search TLM is again assisting with. Just what she is doing there again is anyone's guess.
Tori Stafford Murder Suspect Assists Police Again
http://am980.ca/home/News/GeneralNewsDetail/tabid/967/Default.aspx?id=8297
The lawyer for one of the suspects charged with Tori Stafford's murder says her client was quietly released from prison earlier this week to assist officers in their search for the 8-year old's remains.

It's the second time Terri-Lynne McClintic has personally assisted investigators in a search that's now been going on for more than two weeks.

The 19-year-old's lawyer, Jeanine LeRoy, has told AM980 her client was out with Police for three days this week but has since been returned to custody.

LeRoy says it was Police who contacted her client and requested the assistance.

She would not say where her client travelled with investigators, although earlier this week Police said the search had expanded to include areas northeast of Guelph in Erin Township and further north into Dufferin County.

McClintic's latest brush with freedom means it's likely she spent at least part of her 19th birthday on Tuesday getting some fresh air.

This marks the second time McClintic has personally assisted Police with their search for Tori's remains. In the days following her rest, the teenager was out with investigators pointing out various landmarks in the Fergus-area for five days.

McClintic was returned to custody almost two weeks ago, and appeared in court a few days later.

She's next scheduled to appear before a judge on June 23rd.

Her lawyer maintains any talk of making a deal with Crown prosecutors to testify against ex-boyfriend Michael Rafferty in exchange for a lesser sentence is 'premature'.

Meantime a new tip line has been set up by police for anyone who may have any information.

That number is 1-866-825-4222.

N

[moonlite]

OK...found it.

Go to this link and scroll down to the livestream box, click "on demand" and then click June and it takes you to the memorial.
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/06/9698111-sun.html

Greetings"
N/T'

Thank you so much for the link. I didn't get to see this yesterday!!!
I feel so bad for Daryn. I cried when they showed the slide show of Tori.

Interesting how the pastor said the politicians and police were there?
Are they going to change some laws?

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Hi doctor_J here is a link to the search TLM is again assisting with. Just what she is doing there again is anyone's guess.
Tori Stafford Murder Suspect Assists Police Again
http://am980.ca/home/News/GeneralNewsDetail/tabid/967/Default.aspx?id=8297
The lawyer for one of the suspects charged with Tori Stafford's murder says her client was quietly released from prison earlier this week to assist officers in their search for the 8-year old's remains.

It's the second time Terri-Lynne McClintic has personally assisted investigators in a search that's now been going on for more than two weeks.

The 19-year-old's lawyer, Jeanine LeRoy, has told AM980 her client was out with Police for three days this week but has since been returned to custody.

LeRoy says it was Police who contacted her client and requested the assistance.

She would not say where her client travelled with investigators, although earlier this week Police said the search had expanded to include areas northeast of Guelph in Erin Township and further north into Dufferin County.

McClintic's latest brush with freedom means it's likely she spent at least part of her 19th birthday on Tuesday getting some fresh air.

This marks the second time McClintic has personally assisted Police with their search for Tori's remains. In the days following her rest, the teenager was out with investigators pointing out various landmarks in the Fergus-area for five days.

McClintic was returned to custody almost two weeks ago, and appeared in court a few days later.

She's next scheduled to appear before a judge on June 23rd.

Her lawyer maintains any talk of making a deal with Crown prosecutors to testify against ex-boyfriend Michael Rafferty in exchange for a lesser sentence is 'premature'.

Meantime a new tip line has been set up by police for anyone who may have any information.

That number is 1-866-825-4222.

N

Greetings"
North eh"

Thank for posting the link. Lets hope TLM, is not playing games once again and Tori will be found.

Why are they not asking and perusing MR on the where abouts of Tori?

Moonlite

[doctor_J]

I truly don't understand TLM assisting. What could she possibly know if she did not take them to her earlier? She apparently doesn't even know the general area. Or she's just not telling.

Hope the service provided some kind of closure for family and community alike. I don't see it, but the family had a right to decide it was time....The preacher said he never met Tori, I thought that was a sad note. I think the grandmother described taking Tori to church. Wonder why that preacher didn't preside?

[n/t]

Greetings"
N/T'

Thank you so much for the link. I didn't get to see this yesterday!!!
I feel so bad for Daryn. I cried when they showed the slide show of Tori.

Interesting how the pastor said the politicians and police were there?
Are they going to change some laws?

Moonlite

I think they were there out of respect. The only change I forsee is perhaps to the Amber Alert criteria.

[n/t]

I truly don't understand TLM assisting. What could she possibly know if she did not take them to her earlier? She apparently doesn't even know the general area. Or she's just not telling.

Hope the service provided some kind of closure for family and community alike. I don't see it, but the family had a right to decide it was time....The preacher said he never met Tori, I thought that was a sad note. I think the grandmother described taking Tori to church. Wonder why that preacher didn't preside?

I don't understand it either. If she wants to "assist" she can tell them where the body is behind bars. I don't see the need to let her out and accompany them on these searches. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Like I posted yesterday, get both to search the landfill.:angry:

[n/t]

MR is suppose to appear in court on June 11th. if I'm not mistaken. Has he entered a plea?

[Gugug]

On another tangent, the Bandidos trial is set to resume today.

[kelloggirl]

Good morning all. I have been away from these boards and without news most of the time, and I can't even describe how sad and frustrating it is to read that poor Tori's body hasn't been found yet, despite lots of resources and "cooperation" from one of her abductors. How can this be? What is going on?

And if I, a mere message board poster, feel this, I cannot imagine the pain her family is experiencing. This family deserves closure, if only for a moment of respite from the anguish they will feel for the rest of their lives. :crying:

Since I am catching up, I hope someone can be kind enough to tell me if they have scoured and overturned TLM's and MR's homes and yards to be sure Tori isn't there. At this point, with these two horrific predators, I would be looking everywhere BUT where they tell me to.

:rose: For Tori: May this week be the week you come home :rose:

[n/t]

Good morning all. I have been away from these boards and without news most of the time, and I can't even describe how sad and frustrating it is to read that poor Tori's body hasn't been found yet, despite lots of resources and "cooperation" from one of her abductors. How can this be? What is going on?

And if I, a mere message board poster, feel this, I cannot imagine the pain her family is experiencing. This family deserves closure, if only for a moment of respite from the anguish they will feel for the rest of their lives. :crying:

Since I am catching up, I hope someone can be kind enough to tell me if they have scoured and overturned TLM's and MR's homes and yards to be sure Tori isn't there. At this point, with these two horrific predators, I would be looking everywhere BUT where they tell me to.

:rose: For Tori: May this week be the week you come home :rose:

I'm with you.....look everywhere BUT where the monster says.

IMO, they buried her.

[koawally]

http://www.brantfordexpositor.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1603332&auth=Vincent%20Ball,%20Expositor%20Staff

Bones likely belong to a child five to 10 years old
Posted By Vincent Ball, Expositor Staff
Posted 2 hours ago


Bones found in the shed of a Henrietta Street home last week are believed to be those of a child between five and 10-years of age, Brantford police say.

However, the origins of the bones are still not known and it is not known how long they were in the shed before being discovered by a contractor on Wednesday.

The bones, which included a skull, are now in the care of the coronerÕs office for examination. All of the bones are believed to be from a single source, police said.

No other bones were found during a search by specially-trained investigators on Friday.

An investigation into the discovery continues to be a coronerÕs investigation and Brantford police will continue to help the coronerÕs office when required, police said Monday.

The investigation began after a contractor had part of a human skull fall to his feet while working on a shed at the rear of 10 Henrietta St. He later found some other human bones underneath some floor boards in the shed.

The archaeological recovery team from York Regional Police was brought in on Friday to search the area for additional bones.

[koawally]

Koawally, I haven't bumped into you yet out there, but I hope too. I will be the girl with the german shepherd. :glare:
After the memorial service today, I was driving towards Orangeville and saw a swarm of crows and turkey vultures surrounding something waaayy off in a field. A field that looked so much like areas the police were paying attention too. It was off a dirt road and I sat in my car squinting at the far off sight wishing I had my binoculars.
I got out of my truck and with my heart in my throat began the long walk through the field.... until I saw that it was a very unfortunate racoon.

God bless little Tori. I love you sweetheart.
May you be in peace and have the keys ready to tease, when your aunt comes to the gate to be with you. I just know, that my mom is with you too. So many are.

Hi Skraps,

I haven't been back to the Guelph & Fergus area since last week. It has taken alot out of me as this same time last year my husband passed away. Emotionally I think I'm a bit spent right now. It's a very emotional time for me. The funeral of lil Tori was so difficult as the 6th was the same day my husband actually passed away in my arms.
God Bless Tori's Family...I pray Tori is found soon.

I hope to regroup for a couple of days and if I go out again I'll email you to perhaps search together or go for a meal afterwords.
Binoculars are really really helpfull...and it's starnge you and I were the same when it came to watching circling birds...they caught my eyes too.

Anyone have any more information on the article I just posted on remains/bones of a 5-10year old child found in Brantford??

Could it be our Tori???:wub:

Although a part below from the article states archaelogical recovery...perhaps that indicates---->they are older bones. Blessings to whomever this child is :O(

The archaeological recovery team from York Regional Police was brought in on Friday to search the area for additional bones.

[BevAnn]

OHH Koawally, my hugs go out to you sweety! I'm sorry for all you've been through. :sad:

I have a feeling those bones are older than what we are looking for - as in, been there for a long long time. BUT, it might bring closure to another family! What other missing children are from around that area?

[Gugug]

This is not the same area, but:

http://www.lfpress.ca/perl-bin/publish.cgi?x=articles&p=265765&s=indepthcoverage

Manion lived in London. Maybe elsewhere, too?

http://hazel8500.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/barry-manion-found-dead-in-his-cell/

[n/t]

The bones are not related to any current police investigation as they are believed to have been there for a number of years, police said in their statement.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1598923

[koawally]

This is not the same area, but:

http://www.lfpress.ca/perl-bin/publish.cgi?x=articles&p=265765&s=indepthcoverage

Manion lived in London. Maybe elsewhere, too?

http://hazel8500.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/barry-manion-found-dead-in-his-cell/

BevAnn Thank you Friend {{ HUGS }}

Thanks Gugug for the links. Can't say I'm sorry for this evil man Barry Manion------------> hanging himself!! What a MONSTER!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps there is a link between him and the "bones" of the precious child's remains found in Brantford.

12-year-old Katherine May Wilson :rose: so sad, another lil angel lost to a pedophile

[koawally]

The bones are not related to any current police investigation as they are believed to have been there for a number of years, police said in their statement.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1598923

Thanks n/t

from the article: He believes the skull is that of a child, likely seven or eight years of age, while the leg bones are those of someone who is older and taller, a small woman or teenager, he said.

"Everyone there last night was saying the legs don't match the skull," Armstrong said.

How shocking:ohmy:

[Gugug]

BevAnn Thank you Friend {{ HUGS }}

Thanks Gugug for the links. Can't say I'm sorry for this evil man Barry Manion------------> hanging himself!! What a MONSTER!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps there is a link between him and the "bones" of the precious child's remains found in Brantford.

12-year-old Katherine May Wilson :rose: so sad, another lil angel lost to a pedophile

Manion's case has lessons. He wanted to help police (after not helping them for nearly 40 years), and cooperated with them, by pointing out clearly where he left the body, or buried it (different reports from different newspapers), beside a road. After his death, a hunter told police that the road wasn't there when Kathy was murdered. The police moved the search, and are still looking for her.

Kathy's two sisters told police that they saw Manion driving away with Kathy on the day she disappeared. Another person confirmed what they saw. They saw Manion shoving Kathy's head down so she wouldn't be seen. Kathy appeared to be frightened. The police did not believe this, so it was decades before Manion was charged, tried and convicted.

Manion made conflicting statements to relatives about where he was on the day Kathy disappeared.

Even after Manion apparently molested two of his nieces in the 1980s, he was not charged in Kathy's death.

Kathy's mother had a warning for all parents that children can disappear in an instant when they are walking alone.

In this case, Manion was well-known to Kathy, as he was her father's cousin. He had been sexually abusing her for two years before she was murdered.

Manion had two small children of his own at the time of Kathy's murder, and was in his early 20s. He was a grandfather at the time of his suicide. His wife and adult daughter still live in Kirkland Lake.

[n/t]

I wish we would get an update from LE. The only update we got was that they set up a tip line. 3 weeks after the arrests.:glare:

If they're relying on the murder suspect who had her charges upgraded to murder to "assist" them, I have no hope they'll ever find Victoria's remains except perhaps by luck if some person comes across her remains unexpectedly.

I've lost total faith in them.:sad:

[north-eh]

I wish we would get an update from LE. The only update we got was that they set up a tip line. 3 weeks after the arrests.:glare:

If they're relying on the murder suspect who had her charges upgraded to murder to "assist" them, I have no hope they'll ever find Victoria's remains except perhaps by luck if some person comes across her remains unexpectedly.

I've lost total faith in them.:sad:

Good morning n/t. I feel the same way unfortunately. I have no idea why TLM is anywhere near the search the second time. Do they really expect her to help them this time when she didn't the first time?
I am not feeling too confident that they will find her remains, I'm really not, unless like you say they come across it unexpectedly.
What a shame they have to be so cruel to the family. These feelings must run pretty deep to have such hatred for another human being.

I pray that this week Tori will be found and laid to rest where she belongs. :sad:
N

[Gugug]

Good morning n/t. I feel the same way unfortunately. I have no idea why TLM is anywhere near the search the second time. Do they really expect her to help them this time when she didn't the first time?
I am not feeling too confident that they will find her remains, I'm really not, unless like you say they come across it unexpectedly.
What a shame they have to be so cruel to the family. These feelings must run pretty deep to have such hatred for another human being.

I pray that this week Tori will be found and laid to rest where she belongs. :sad:
N

I wonder if they're asking the wrong person. No, I don't mean MR. Maybe they should be asking someone else in the circle of people who knew Tori.

[Orleaner12]

I wonder if they're asking the wrong person. No, I don't mean MR. Maybe they should be asking someone else in the circle of people who knew Tori.


Good Morning everyone.....

Gugug can you explain the above....anyone in particular you have in mind?

[moonlite]

Thanks n/t

from the article: He believes the skull is that of a child, likely seven or eight years of age, while the leg bones are those of someone who is older and taller, a small woman or teenager, he said.

"Everyone there last night was saying the legs don't match the skull," Armstrong said.

How shocking:ohmy:

Greetings'
Koawally"

I hope the police will be able to identify the bodies? I hope they catch the person who did this.

Moonlite

[Gugug]

Good Morning everyone.....

Gugug can you explain the above....anyone in particular you have in mind?

I think they need to look deeper into the relationships between MR, TLM and others in the circle that knew Tara and Tori. Woodstock is not a big city, and the circle of drug users might provide further clues.

One article noted that another former drug user and ex-pusher, one Christina Morrison, lives a few doors down from where TLM lived with her mother. I do not suggest that she is involved. I think that she might be able to name some names. Maybe she saw things from her home that would be helpful to investigators? From her perspective as a person formerly operating in that realm, she might have a better insight than the average person. She might be more reliable than others in these circles, whose memories might be impaired.

In answer to your question: yes. I wonder if the police videotaped the attendees at the memorial service for Tori. I know they do this at crime-related funerals.

[Gugug]

On another note, the Bandidos trial resumed yesterday. Coverage of the story does not mention MH, who was supposed to testify when the trial was halted about a week ago due to a lawyer's withdrawal from the proceedings. Instead, it refers to testimony from a girlfriend of one of the murdered men.

[n/t]

Almost 5,000 tips in case
http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1604936


"There's so many different tips," Maitland said Monday. "You really can't stop until you investigate them all."


Maybe that's why they're not getting anywhere. Just spinning their wheels, imo.

Still looking for the car seat.

[n/t]

Chief leading Tori case retiring

WOODSTOCK -- The chief for Oxford Community Police has announced plans to retire in October after more than three decades of policing.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/06/10/9745511-sun.html

[n/t]

Copy cat? Police say no but I think they're wrong.

In Mississauga, a stranger rattles six elementary schools

But police said today's incident is unlike Tori’s case

“It is very rare that absolute, complete strangers abduct other strangers. It happens but it is rare,” Const. Minnion said. That being said, police reminded the public yesterday to review safety practices with their children.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/06/09/in-mississauga-a-stranger-rattles-six-elementary-schools.aspx


Yes, one in a million apparently but it happens. I think LE needs to get off their "it's rare" bit and start realizing that it happens more than we think.

Why isn't this like Tori's case? Sounds the same to me. One kid even reported seeing a woman with the man. Ugh!

[n/t]

Exactly. That`s what I meant in previous post: We have a really bad case of management here that lets all evidence and its timely processing slip. It`s too late to undo this mess, IMO. As much as I was hoping LE was just protecting the "progress" of the case with silence, I have lost all confidence.

(my previous notes)
"My impression of LE involvement however is also that despite their great efforts in numbers of assigned officers and hours, there seems to be some crusted leadership that doesn`t allow for deviation from usual approaches. At least that is what you find in companies that deal with last-minute chores: if you see employess spinning their wheels excessively and still not coming to proper results overall, it`s usually bad or inflexible management decisions or lack of goal setting or having the wrong people in middle management."


I agree.

Sounds like they're not making any progress. They can have 100,000 leads but unless you know how to manage them and be able to sift through the ones that will bring in results, they won't get anywhere.

IMO, there's no need to "investigate them all" especially if they don't have the resources to do so.

The other thing that bothers me is they claim to have all these leads but are still relying on the suspected murderer to lead them to Tori's remains.

I just don't get it.

*sigh*

[north-eh]

Good morning my fine friends. Another day and still no sign of Tori. :sad:

I've been reading on FB and Tara is saying that she is planning a wedding for the fall to JG and wants everyone's help in choosing the music. If in fact that is Tara posting of course.
I just came from the memorial service for her murdered daughter and she presumably is now planning a wedding? Forgive me but this is bang out of order, who does that?
This is just my opinion of course but I would like to think she would wait to at least recover the body first, if in fact they ever do but let's at least wait on it a bit longer.:confused:
This reminds me so much of the Haleigh Cumming case when Ronald marries his teen bride Misty smack dab in the middle of Haleigh disappearing, wth is wrong with some people?

Maybe this week little Tori will be found and finally laid to rest.
N

[BevAnn]

Good morning my fine friends. Another day and still no sign of Tori. :sad:

I've been reading on FB and Tara is saying that she is planning a wedding for the fall to JG and wants everyone's help in choosing the music. If in fact that is Tara posting of course.
I just came from the memorial service for her murdered daughter and she presumably is now planning a wedding? Forgive me but this is bang out of order, who does that?
This is just my opinion of course but I would like to think she would wait to at least recover the body first, if in fact they ever do but let's at least wait on it a bit longer.:confused:
This reminds me so much of the Haleigh Cumming case when Ronald marries his teen bride Misty smack dab in the middle of Haleigh disappearing, wth is wrong with some people?

Maybe this week little Tori will be found and finally laid to rest.
N

It's on FOXNEWS today that Mike Tyson just married wife #4 - 2 weeks after his daughter was found accidentally hanged by a treadmill cord.

How can you do that??

But some people do - I guess maybe they try to force a happy, positive situation into their lives to get their minds off the bad that just happened? :confused:

[north-eh]

It's on FOXNEWS today that Mike Tyson just married wife #4 - 2 weeks after his daughter was found accidentally hanged by a treadmill cord.

How can you do that??

But some people do - I guess maybe they try to force a happy, positive situation into their lives to get their minds off the bad that just happened? :confused:

Hi BevAnn. I know it happens, but I never really understood it. I have always heard and felt that any major desicions should never be made for at least a year after a death in a family but this was murder, how can one just plan something like a wedding.
They have yet to get to the first stage of grief let alone the last part it takes some people for ever, what's the rush?
:rolleyes:
N

[Orleaner12]

Good morning my fine friends. Another day and still no sign of Tori. :sad:

I've been reading on FB and Tara is saying that she is planning a wedding for the fall to JG and wants everyone's help in choosing the music. If in fact that is Tara posting of course.
I just came from the memorial service for her murdered daughter and she presumably is now planning a wedding? Forgive me but this is bang out of order, who does that?
This is just my opinion of course but I would like to think she would wait to at least recover the body first, if in fact they ever do but let's at least wait on it a bit longer.:confused:
This reminds me so much of the Haleigh Cumming case when Ronald marries his teen bride Misty smack dab in the middle of Haleigh disappearing, wth is wrong with some people?

Maybe this week little Tori will be found and finally laid to rest.
N


nothing surprises me when it comes to TM...

[gordon24fan]

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/648220

[Gugug]

Poor little Daryn. Why did the father of the Asperger syndrome friend ask him to accompany his son that day? Why was Daryn usually walking home with some other kids first and then return to pick up Tori from school? How long would that take and where would Tori wait in the meantime? Inside of her school? In front? It`s a weird arrangement to begin with.
Wouldn`t Tori and Daryn have been released from school at the same time in general and on April 8th and exchanged some information that Daryn would be taking the extra tour to the Asperger friend`s house? But why wouldn`t he have run into TLM as well then if TLM and Tori were already seen shortly after 3:30pm on the surveillance video unless Tori left school early? I keep thinking someone tricked Daryn that day and arranged that he was asked to go with the other child instead. Do we know more about the family with the child that Daryn accompanied? Any link to TLM?

It does make you wonder, doesn't it? This is especially strange because we heard earlier that Daryn used to walk a girl with Asperger's home. This is the daughter of one of the women who spoke to CTV news.

So, on the very day Tori disappeared, he walked another child with Asperger's home? What is the name of that father? I know we've asked that question before.

[aproudmom]

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/648220

I see another Nascar fan..
well was hoping this sweet child would be found this family needs to have her back and lay her to rest in a proper burial..the memorial broke my heart and her brother poor thing.

[Gugug]

Almost 5,000 tips in case
http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1604936


"There's so many different tips," Maitland said Monday. "You really can't stop until you investigate them all."


Maybe that's why they're not getting anywhere. Just spinning their wheels, imo.

Still looking for the car seat.

Maybe that's why they needed someone like Kim Rossmo. Geographic profiling, as he said, is a system of information management which is very useful in these complex cases.

I know that Tori has been mentioned in the blog "Who Killed Theresa?" I have been reading this blog because I remember the case. Many things went wrong in that investigation, which remains unsolved decades later. The author of the blog is in touch with Kim Rossmo. Now if only someone investigating Tori's case would call Dr. Rossmo to give them advice.

[aproudmom]

It's on FOXNEWS today that Mike Tyson just married wife #4 - 2 weeks after his daughter was found accidentally hanged by a treadmill cord.

How can you do that??

But some people do - I guess maybe they try to force a happy, positive situation into their lives to get their minds off the bad that just happened? :confused:

I am sorry but that would be the last thing on my mind...sounding like the Haleigh Cummings case..FGS

[Gugug]

Good morning my fine friends. Another day and still no sign of Tori. :sad:

I've been reading on FB and Tara is saying that she is planning a wedding for the fall to JG and wants everyone's help in choosing the music. If in fact that is Tara posting of course.
I just came from the memorial service for her murdered daughter and she presumably is now planning a wedding? Forgive me but this is bang out of order, who does that?
This is just my opinion of course but I would like to think she would wait to at least recover the body first, if in fact they ever do but let's at least wait on it a bit longer.:confused:
This reminds me so much of the Haleigh Cumming case when Ronald marries his teen bride Misty smack dab in the middle of Haleigh disappearing, wth is wrong with some people?

Maybe this week little Tori will be found and finally laid to rest.
N

We know there have been "fake Taras" on that wall before. However, I recall an article in the earlier days of Tori's disappearance, which said that around the time Tori disappeared, Tara was thinking of having her sterilization reversed so that she could have a baby with JG. I thought at the time that it was a very odd thing to make public when your child is missing.

[aproudmom]

Copy cat? Police say no but I think they're wrong.

In Mississauga, a stranger rattles six elementary schools

But police said today's incident is unlike Tori’s case

“It is very rare that absolute, complete strangers abduct other strangers. It happens but it is rare,” Const. Minnion said. That being said, police reminded the public yesterday to review safety practices with their children.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/06/09/in-mississauga-a-stranger-rattles-six-elementary-schools.aspx


Yes, one in a million apparently but it happens. I think LE needs to get off their "it's rare" bit and start realizing that it happens more than we think.

Why isn't this like Tori's case? Sounds the same to me. One kid even reported seeing a woman with the man. Ugh!

ITA just look how they were in shock a women killed Sandra they were looking for some sex offender male..

[Gugug]

I am sorry but that would be the last thing on my mind...sounding like the Haleigh Cummings case..FGS

Mike Tyson is a fine role model. Sarcasm.

[aproudmom]

We know there have been "fake Taras" on that wall before. However, I recall an article in the earlier days of Tori's disappearance, which said that around the time Tori disappeared, Tara was thinking of having her sterilization reversed so that she could have a baby with JG. I thought at the time that it was a very odd thing to make public when your child is missing.

:ohmy:no way..

[gordon24fan]

I see another Nascar fan..
well was hoping this sweet child would be found this family needs to have her back and lay her to rest in a proper burial..the memorial broke my heart and her brother poor thing.

Yep nascar fan here from montreal.
I don't post very often but read you guys everyday since i came upon this blog a couple of months ago reasearching on the haleigh c case. now i come here for updates every day on many cases

[Gugug]

Exactly. That`s what I meant in previous post: We have a really bad case of management here that lets all evidence and its timely processing slip. It`s too late to undo this mess, IMO. As much as I was hoping LE was just protecting the "progress" of the case with silence, I have lost all confidence.

(my previous notes)
"My impression of LE involvement however is also that despite their great efforts in numbers of assigned officers and hours, there seems to be some crusted leadership that doesn`t allow for deviation from usual approaches. At least that is what you find in companies that deal with last-minute chores: if you see employess spinning their wheels excessively and still not coming to proper results overall, it`s usually bad or inflexible management decisions or lack of goal setting or having the wrong people in middle management."

I am still confused about the role of the OPP in this investigation. Are they just helping the Oxford police, or has the OPP taken over this investigation? I would be much more positive about this if the OPP were in charge. Why is Maitland still the mouthpiece, if the OPP is involved? This is well beyond the capability of Oxford LE IMO. They might be fine for traffic enforcement and petty theft, but a situation like this? Not so much...

[Gugug]

:ohmy:no way..

Well, according to this newspaper column:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/Front/home

"Ms. McDonald was on at least one occasion seen by some of her relatives grinding up Oxycontin and snorting it, then emerging for her daily “one o'clock,” as she called the news conferences, to, among other things, deny that she had any connection to drugs or that drug debts could be at the root of her daughter's disappearance.

At one of the balloon releases, she told relatives of Tori's dad, Rodney Stafford, that she was hoping to have her sterilization reversed and to have a child with Mr. Goris."

[north-eh]

Well, according to this newspaper column:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090520.tori21/BNStory/Front/home

"Ms. McDonald was on at least one occasion seen by some of her relatives grinding up Oxycontin and snorting it, then emerging for her daily “one o'clock,” as she called the news conferences, to, among other things, deny that she had any connection to drugs or that drug debts could be at the root of her daughter's disappearance.

At one of the balloon releases, she told relatives of Tori's dad, Rodney Stafford, that she was hoping to have her sterilization reversed and to have a child with Mr. Goris."

Thanks for the reminder Gugug, I don't understand TM.
I was so full of sadness and I was even posting about how I admired her strength at Saturday's memorial service and then she turns around and announces something like this??
It sounds like she likes the attention to me.
I think I need to rethink my opinion here.:cursing:
N

[Orleaner12]

the only thing that amazed me about the Memorial service was that TM could give the impression of tearing up but yet no sign of actual tears and no tissue in sight......

[Gugug]

the only thing that amazed me about the Memorial service was that TM could give the impression of tearing up but yet no sign of actual tears and no tissue in sight......

This is what happened at some of the old PCs, too. There is only one kind of person I can think of who can "cry" without ever shedding a tear. It's interesting to go back and review to some of the old posts on this forum, like this page, for example:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13041387

I think that people's first instincts are often the correct ones. Then we try to use logic and facts to talk "sense".

Are the terms "lack of emotion" and "personal strength" one and the same? How much of this comes from drug abuse?

[Lovethechild]

the only thing that amazed me about the Memorial service was that TM could give the impression of tearing up but yet no sign of actual tears and no tissue in sight......


Seems hinky,IMO.

[Gugug]

Was wondering about the extent of drugs and trafficking and came across this:

http://caj.ca/mediamag/awards2005/(Andrew%20Mitrovica)%20Saturday%20Night%20Magazine .htm

Sorry, way off topic. But it serves to show that appearances can be deceiving. Wolves in sheeps' clothing and all that.

[north-eh]

Was wondering about the extent of drugs and trafficking and came across this:

http://caj.ca/mediamag/awards2005/(Andrew%20Mitrovica)%20Saturday%20Night%20Magazine .htm

Sorry, way off topic. But it serves to show that appearances can be deceiving. Wolves in sheeps' clothing and all that.

Wow that's quite an eye opener Gugug! Thank you.
:scared:
We really never know do we? A wolfe in sheep's clothing indeed.
N

[kelloggirl]

This is what happened at some of the old PCs, too. There is only one kind of person I can think of who can "cry" without ever shedding a tear. It's interesting to go back and review to some of the old posts on this forum, like this page, for example:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13041387

I think that people's first instincts are often the correct ones. Then we try to use logic and facts to talk "sense".

Are the terms "lack of emotion" and "personal strength" one and the same? How much of this comes from drug abuse?

I think they're very linked, in that the lack of ability to cope with negative circumstances can lead to choosing drugs or alcohol to avoid those negative emotions that arise. I think doctor_j had some great information/insights on drug use and how Oxycontin in particular works. I can't imagine an event or circumstance worse than losing your daughter that would drive a drug user to fall off the wagon or to react inappropriately. I'm sure she's thinking, I have to be strong, and do something positive, while not realizing that it's healthier to take the time to grieve properly and then move forward. It's common, I think, for people to sometimes rush into things (marriages, etc.) to avoid feeling the pain of events like death of a spouse or divorce.

That said, I admit I still struggle with my own lingering personal negative feelings that I had regarding Tara early on, not because I think she did anything to Tori, but just when I read things like the sterilization reversal and drug use pre-press conference, I just have to stop remind myself that she is human and made and will make mistakes, and that doesn't mean that what she went through is any less painful or tragic.

[moonlite]

Almost 5,000 tips in case
http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1604936


"There's so many different tips," Maitland said Monday. "You really can't stop until you investigate them all."


Maybe that's why they're not getting anywhere. Just spinning their wheels, imo.

Still looking for the car seat.

Greetings'
N/T'

Thanks for the link. I'm wondering why the police even bothered with TLM again? I mean she didn't help the first time around. Why don't the police use reverse tactics and offer up a deal with MR, against TLM?

IMO' MR' is enough of a drama queen to take the bait.

Moonlite

[doctor_J]

I'm going to come right out and say that I don't trust Tara MacDonald as far as I could throw her. Her behavior at the memorial was just as bizzare as it was throughout this ordeal. Inapproproiate lack of emotion. How many of us could attend the funeral of an 8 yr. old child that is a stranger to us, and keep from silently weeping? Even more so in the conditions of Tori's death-- possible sexual molestation, murder and unrecovered remains?

Tara's lack of appropriate emotion , imo, is not a sign of strength, but a sign of personality disorder, lack of maternal bonding and anesthesia due to drug abuse. It has nothing to do with holding herself together for the family. It's shown up all along, by the way of inappropriate thought processes, decision making, inability to cry. This woman either feels no loss, no remorse (and what normal mother wouldn't) and no regret because she is incapable, i.e. psychopathy, or she is so heavily under the influence of narcotics, specificially Oxycontin, methadone and probably benzos that she is chemically blocked from any of these feelings. I suspect we are talking about both conditions concurrently.

This is a dangerous and unhealthy situation for Daryn. I believe it was even more so for Tori. I will be suprised if this is brought to a conclusion without implicating Tara and James and their shady associations, either directly or indirectly leading to Tori's death.

[Orleaner12]

what bothered me about Daryn at the Memorial was all the references to him not being there that day for Tori.. it wasn't just in his little written notes but even the Aunt of Tara's made mention of it in her poem.. if what we were led to believe early on from Tara, Daryn wasn't even supposed to be walking with her that day so I wondered why he was even made to feel such guilt and by whom..another thing that didn't sit well with me was when Tara mentioned that Daryn was so upset that he vented his anger outside with a metal mop handle and broke it in half.... I agree that the home situation needs looking into especially for Daryn's sake...he is living with a convicted criminal, even if it is only for a drug conviction and theft and of course a Mother going through treatment for oxy withdrawal..

[north-eh]

I'm going to come right out and say that I don't trust Tara MacDonald as far as I could throw her. Her behavior at the memorial was just as bizzare as it was throughout this ordeal. Inapproproiate lack of emotion. How many of us could attend the funeral of an 8 yr. old child that is a stranger to us, and keep from silently weeping? Even more so in the conditions of Tori's death-- possible sexual molestation, murder and unrecovered remains?

Tara's lack of appropriate emotion , imo, is not a sign of strength, but a sign of personality disorder, lack of maternal bonding and anesthesia due to drug abuse. It has nothing to do with holding herself together for the family. It's shown up all along, by the way of inappropriate thought processes, decision making, inability to cry. This woman either feels no loss, no remorse (and what normal mother wouldn't) and no regret because she is incapable, i.e. psychopathy, or she is so heavily under the influence of narcotics, specificially Oxycontin, methadone and probably benzos that she is chemically blocked from any of these feelings. I suspect we are talking about both conditions concurrently.

This is a dangerous and unhealthy situation for Daryn. I believe it was even more so for Tori. I will be suprised if this is brought to a conclusion without implicating Tara and James and their shady associations, either directly or indirectly leading to Tori's death.

Hi doctor_J boy it sure is nice to hear from you. You always make so much sense and explain things well, thank you for that.
I know I have said that at the service I saw strength in this woman but on the other hand my not fully understanding these drugs, it does appear that she has it altogether, how silly of me to think that, I know better. This is what I saw I know that... I saw drugs at work and boy did I ever.

I agree too that then when the whole story comes out we maybe in for more of a surprise than we thought. Drugs are rampent in their lives, no question and little Tori may have paid the ultimate price.
N

[north-eh]

what bothered me about Daryn at the Memorial was all the references to him not being there that day for Tori.. it wasn't just in his little written notes but even the Aunt of Tara's made mention of it in her poem.. if what we were led to believe early on from Tara, Daryn wasn't even supposed to be walking with her that day so I wondered why he was even made to feel such guilt and by whom..another thing that didn't sit well with me was when Tara mentioned that Daryn was so upset that he vented his anger outside with a metal mop handle and broke it in half.... I agree that the home situation needs looking into especially for Daryn's sake...he is living with a convicted criminal, even if it is only for a drug conviction and theft and of course a Mother going through treatment for oxy withdrawal..

Bingo!! Orleaner12, I have been wondering the same thing myself. How did it get turned around to look as though Daryn was the one responsible? He is the child here they should be doing all they can to erase any feelings of responsiblity not feed into them.
In the beginning all Tara could talk about was money for therapy for Daryn, now I'm beginning to understand why.
N

[Jester]

I think Tara asked for the handbook on how moms are supposed to act when a young daughter is kidnapped, raped, and murdered. Many have tried to blame Tara, exploring her lifestyle and looking for fault. Personally, I don't think her lifestyle has anything to do with anything. Her daughter is gone, and she knows it. She probably can't bear to think of the circumstances of her abduction and murder. Indeed, both parents are holding out some small hope because Tori has not yet been found. I don't really understand why anyone would want to focus back on Tara, or criticize her. She had nothing to do with her daughter's abduction. Two people have been arrested, and I expect they will be convicted.

[Orleaner12]

at this time I don't believe they have been charged with any sexual charges..which makes one wonder what else their motive could have been.. we also know as per the police that this was not a stranger abduction so it may not be as cut and dry as some believe...

[north-eh]

I think Tara asked for the handbook on how moms are supposed to act when a young daughter is kidnapped, raped, and murdered. Many have tried to blame Tara, exploring her lifestyle and looking for fault. Personally, I don't think her lifestyle has anything to do with anything. Her daughter is gone, and she knows it. She probably can't bear to think of the circumstances of her abduction and murder. Indeed, both parents are holding out some small hope because Tori has not yet been found. I don't really understand why anyone would want to focus back on Tara, or criticize her. She had nothing to do with her daughter's abduction. Two people have been arrested, and I expect they will be convicted.

Hi Jester. I respectfully disagree with you as I feel that although Tara may not be directly responsible for any of this, I truly feel her drug addiction is at the root of her problem, I really do.
IMO no one who is doing drugs and we know Tara admitted this herself, can in anyway make responsible decisions. It just doesn't happen.
Her decisions are not coming from someone with a clear and valid mind and until she gets the help she needs she's on the road to nowhere.
N

[doctor_J]

I can't imagine why any of the adults in this tragedy would repeatedly make reference to Daryn's having any inadvertant responsibility. Yet Tara has mentioned it prominently in pc's and at least twice at the videographed memorial (so he can hear it over and over). It doesn't take a psychiatric professional to know this incident and Daryn's failure to walk Tori home (even though he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do) will have profound effect on his mental health. All children, even more so boys, tend to take too much adult responsibility upon themselves at that age. I keep thinking he has no understanding adult to approach about these feelings. I fear that in a very short time, he may also turn to self-medicating. After all, it's how adults cope with life in his world. I can't see this tragedy causing Tara and James to clean up their act. More likely to make them nose-dive. These are two grown people with children who turned to hard drugs to cope with the normal stress of living. No one's working, noone has an outside profession to consume their time. Making a living is not an important consideration for these people. And they are facing months of trials. Growing up in a house with 2 drug addicts and the nightmare of a murdered sister that Daryn's fate.

Besides all that, what about the insecurity Daryn must feel. He knows parents can't always protect their children. He's apparently allowed free access to the internet or at least access to inappropriate material. How bad are his nightmares? Does he have to go to bed feeling like he is the most responsible person in the house, when James and Tara are high on Oxy? It's a scary situation.

I realize there are many who can't overcompensate enough for having doubted Tara before the arrest. Therefore she is a candidate for mother of the year. No way. These are drug addicts and criminals raising children. I don't need an arrest record to know they are criminals. Abuse of narcotics is illegal and involves many illegal activites, from the procurement of funds to the purchase of illegal drugs. Some think Tara is reformed. That's not what I see and the history does not bear that out. They're both way too familiar with drug dealers and thieves. Oxy is very expensive and few jobs can support it, much less unemployment. It's paid with theft. How else do people without jobs pay $80 for 1 pill?

I respect and appreciate everyone's opinion. I get along quite well with people who do not agree with me. This is a place for opinions and these are some of my concerns. It is NOT OK for a child or children to be raised by drug addicts. The harm is often irreversible.

[Amy]

Bingo!! Orleaner12, I have been wondering the same thing myself. How did it get turned around to look as though Daryn was the one responsible? He is the child here they should be doing all they can to erase any feelings of responsiblity not feed into them.
In the beginning all Tara could talk about was money for therapy for Daryn, now I'm beginning to understand why.
N

Let's hope that any monies they come into, relating to the death of Tori indeed goes for counseling for Daryn. @ some time, that might include TM, the bf and even RS. But concentrate on the little fellow. And hope they get the RIGHT therapist, psychiatrist.

[n/t]

at this time I don't believe they have been charged with any sexual charges..which makes one wonder what else their motive could have been.. we also know as per the police that this was not a stranger abduction so it may not be as cut and dry as some believe...

Where did you get that the police are saying this was not a stranger abduction? I know at first they justified it by saying Tori didn't look distressed because she "willingly" walked with the abductor and therefore didn't issue an amber alert. We know now that they were 100% wrong.

[n/t]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but to continue to blame the family for what happened to Tori is deflecting blame and anger away from the two people responsible for her horrific murder.

Tara, James nor Rodney were charged with anything to do with this crime so to keep focusing on them with the woulda shoulda coulda is a waste. Why not focus on the two people who were indeed responsible? What kind of monsters do we allow on our streets? What preventative measures can be taken? What have we and LE learned from this case? If this can happen in Woodstock it can happen anywhere.

Tara's drug addiction has nothing to do with what happened to her little girl. Even the suspect murderer admitted she did not know who Tori was. They were out to get any girl. They were on a mission. It could've been a little girl playing in her backyard, riding her bike, playing in a park or in a mall.

It is what it is. We can continue to say Tara was/is a drug addict until we're blue in the face. It doesn't change what happened nor will it bring Tori back.


Maybe we're already starting to see a change as a result of this case. Here is what's happening in BC. Some may think it's off topic but imo, it proves that LE, in this case, the RCMP is NOT taking any chances. Kudos to them.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=1683430

[Orleaner12]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but to continue to blame the family for what happened to Tori is deflecting blame and anger away from the two people responsible for her horrific murder.

Tara, James nor Rodney were charged with anything to do with this crime so to keep focusing on them with the woulda shoulda coulda is a waste. Why not focus on the two people who were indeed responsible? What kind of monsters do we allow on our streets? What preventative measures can be taken? What have we and LE learned from this case? If this can happen in Woodstock it can happen anywhere.

Tara's drug addiction has nothing to do with what happened to her little girl. Even the suspect murderer admitted she did not know who Tori was. They were out to get any girl. They were on a mission. It could've been a little girl playing in her backyard, riding her bike, playing in a park or in a mall.

It is what it is. We can continue to say Tara was/is a drug addict until we're blue in the face. It doesn't change what happened nor will it bring Tori back.


Maybe we're already starting to see a change as a result of this case. Here is what's happening in BC. Some may think it's off topic but imo, it proves that LE, in this case, the RCMP is NOT taking any chances. Kudos to them.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=1683430

N/T I appreciate your imput and your views but as you say everyone is entitled to their own views etc. and my opinion at this point is still pointing to TM & JG as having some indirect involvement as to the reason Tori was taken..this does in no way deflect any anger I have from the actual perps..at this time we have no info about them and how they carried this out and why but we do have info about TM & JG and their lifestyle and of course we have info about their friendship with TLM and her Mother and I am not buying into the "dog" issue for being the reason of that friendship.. plus we saw daily how TM reacted and the tales she told.. from the info that the police have released and the articles from the newspapers that I have read it does seem that Tori was familiar with TLM and of course the way the video shows that she walked along with TLM, it points to the fact that this was not a stranger abduction..until it is proven differently, I will continue to believe this to be a fact.. also TLM & MS have not to date been charged with anything sexual so at this time we still don't know what their motive was... from what I do know at this point about TM & JG makes me think that their homelife was not a situation that I would approve of for raising two very young children with one now gone and another continuing to live there..

[n/t]

If it's not an ideal home situation for a child, I don't see Rodney asking for custody of Daryn, where is child protective services? Or the police?

I respect your opinions and I agree with some of the points you make. Tara has made mistakes and I'm sure if she could change anything to have her daughter back, I'm sure she would.

[n/t]

Do we know why the accused will be in court again tomorrow? The trial won't start tomorrow right? Has he made a plea yet? I wish the media would report what the heck is expected in court tomorrow. Good grief.

[juliekan]

I can't imagine why any of the adults in this tragedy would repeatedly make reference to Daryn's having any inadvertant responsibility. Yet Tara has mentioned it prominently in pc's and at least twice at the videographed memorial (so he can hear it over and over). It doesn't take a psychiatric professional to know this incident and Daryn's failure to walk Tori home (even though he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do) will have profound effect on his mental health. All children, even more so boys, tend to take too much adult responsibility upon themselves at that age. I keep thinking he has no understanding adult to approach about these feelings. I fear that in a very short time, he may also turn to self-medicating. After all, it's how adults cope with life in his world. I can't see this tragedy causing Tara and James to clean up their act. More likely to make them nose-dive. These are two grown people with children who turned to hard drugs to cope with the normal stress of living. No one's working, noone has an outside profession to consume their time. Making a living is not an important consideration for these people. And they are facing months of trials. Growing up in a house with 2 drug addicts and the nightmare of a murdered sister that Daryn's fate.

Besides all that, what about the insecurity Daryn must feel. He knows parents can't always protect their children. He's apparently allowed free access to the internet or at least access to inappropriate material. How bad are his nightmares? Does he have to go to bed feeling like he is the most responsible person in the house, when James and Tara are high on Oxy? It's a scary situation.

I realize there are many who can't overcompensate enough for having doubted Tara before the arrest. Therefore she is a candidate for mother of the year. No way. These are drug addicts and criminals raising children. I don't need an arrest record to know they are criminals. Abuse of narcotics is illegal and involves many illegal activites, from the procurement of funds to the purchase of illegal drugs. Some think Tara is reformed. That's not what I see and the history does not bear that out. They're both way too familiar with drug dealers and thieves. Oxy is very expensive and few jobs can support it, much less unemployment. It's paid with theft. How else do people without jobs pay $80 for 1 pill?

I respect and appreciate everyone's opinion. I get along quite well with people who do not agree with me. This is a place for opinions and these are some of my concerns. It is NOT OK for a child or children to be raised by drug addicts. The harm is often irreversible.

ITA with you

[Jester]

Hi Jester. I respectfully disagree with you as I feel that although Tara may not be directly responsible for any of this, I truly feel her drug addiction is at the root of her problem, I really do.
IMO no one who is doing drugs and we know Tara admitted this herself, can in anyway make responsible decisions. It just doesn't happen.
Her decisions are not coming from someone with a clear and valid mind and until she gets the help she needs she's on the road to nowhere.
N

She may well be on the road to no where, but children have been raised in less than ideal circumstances for centuries. I have not read that Tori was neglected, that she was truant, that her medical needs were ignored, or that she was in any way a child who was not loved and cared for.

If I were to place blame, I would be looking at a school with a requirement that children are collected by the correct parent or guardian, and wondering why teachers left Tori in front of the school to be victimized by a predator. Was Terry Lynne loitering outside the school on other days? If so, why didn't teachers confront her? There were several parents collecting children from the school after school. Why didn't anyone pay attention? Did no one care? Tara has a substance abuse problem and she has been in the process of dealing with it from the time prior to Tori's abduction.

Another obvious problem is police bias. If Tori had been the daughter of any professionals, the police would have listened to the parents. Instead, they looked at Tara as a divorced (going nowhere, as you point out) mom. They saw Tori being led away by a stranger, and they refused to believe it was an abduction. Tara did not know who Tori was with, but the police doubted her credibility from the beginning.

Many people, from teachers, to neighbours, to police, failed Tori. Tara's substance abuse is one factor, but not, in my opinion, the important factor.

[Jester]

I think everybody would be happier if we could shift our focus on the two that are already arrested but until the relationships between Tori`s family and the circle of TLM are clear, it seems premature.

See, here is part of an older article from GlobalTV and it is really not quite clear if we are dealing with a stranger abduction. Tara says that TLM`s mom said TLM knew Tori:

"Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said."

Take one look at Terry Lynne's mother ... it's pretty obvious that she has not made any efforts to deal with her drug problems. She has a much longer history of drug abuse than Tara. Why would we say that Tara's mind is not right from drug abuse, and then turn around and believe anything said by TLM's mother? The mother probably hallucinates day and night from years of serious drug abuse, so I wouldn't take anything she says as fact.

[Orleaner12]

She may well be on the road to no where, but children have been raised in less than ideal circumstances for centuries. I have not read that Tori was neglected, that she was truant, that her medical needs were ignored, or that she was in any way a child who was not loved and cared for.

If I were to place blame, I would be looking at a school with a requirement that children are collected by the correct parent or guardian, and wondering why teachers left Tori in front of the school to be victimized by a predator. Was Terry Lynne loitering outside the school on other days? If so, why didn't teachers confront her? There were several parents collecting children from the school after school. Why didn't anyone pay attention? Did no one care? Tara has a substance abuse problem and she has been in the process of dealing with it from the time prior to Tori's abduction.

Another obvious problem is police bias. If Tori had been the daughter of any professionals, the police would have listened to the parents. Instead, they looked at Tara as a divorced (going nowhere, as you point out) mom. They saw Tori being led away by a stranger, and they refused to believe it was an abduction. Tara did not know who Tori was with, but the police doubted her credibility from the beginning.

Many people, from teachers, to neighbours, to police, failed Tori. Tara's substance abuse is one factor, but not, in my opinion, the important factor.

the system did not fail Tori...that started at home..since neither her Mother nor her step father were or are employed I would think it was their responsibility to make sure that Tori was taken care of after school..as Tara stated in one of her tales that Daryn was not supposed to be walking home with Tori that fateful day... the video does not show any force being made on Tori as she walked along with TLM and that seems to have been the impression of many... this family had dealing with the law previously and in any case of abduction the family is the first to be scrutinized and in this case there were many red flags...even upstanding Ed Smart who is neither divorced nor on welfare was looked at carefully by the police before being eliminated... from the PC's that Tara gave most of us picked up on her distorted stories so I can imagine how the police felt about that...it seems that Rodney and his family came under the same cloud but obviously they were eliminated because Rodney was wired by the police early on which indicates to me that TM & JG were still on suspicion for one thing or another...
IMO the school is NOT responsible for this in any way...dropping off and picking up a child is the responsibility of the parent and if a child has to leave school early for whatever reason the school is supplied with a list of authorized people by the parent, otherwise the child is not released on their own...I have noticed that even Tara herself has not placed any blame on the school and rightly so...

[Jester]

N/T I appreciate your imput and your views but as you say everyone is entitled to their own views etc. and my opinion at this point is still pointing to TM & JG as having some indirect involvement as to the reason Tori was taken..this does in no way deflect any anger I have from the actual perps..at this time we have no info about them and how they carried this out and why but we do have info about TM & JG and their lifestyle and of course we have info about their friendship with TLM and her Mother and I am not buying into the "dog" issue for being the reason of that friendship.. plus we saw daily how TM reacted and the tales she told.. from the info that the police have released and the articles from the newspapers that I have read it does seem that Tori was familiar with TLM and of course the way the video shows that she walked along with TLM, it points to the fact that this was not a stranger abduction..until it is proven differently, I will continue to believe this to be a fact.. also TLM & MS have not to date been charged with anything sexual so at this time we still don't know what their motive was... from what I do know at this point about TM & JG makes me think that their homelife was not a situation that I would approve of for raising two very young children with one now gone and another continuing to live there..

Police apparently have enough evidence that TLM kidnapped Tori and that MR was involved. Tori does not appear to be amongst the living, so they have charged them with murder. Without a body, rape cannot be proven. That does not mean rape was not the motive, it only means that it cannot yet be proven.

As for assuming that TLM knew that Tori was Tara's daughter and therefore kidnapped her, that seems to go against everything said by both Tara and TLM. TLM has stated that she did not know Tori was Tara's daughter, Tara has said she had a brief association with TLM's drug infested mother but did not know TLM. Tara has come clean about her illegal drug history, so are you suggesting Tara is withholding information about her association with TLM's mother or TLM to protect them? Are you suggesting one or the other is Tara's drug dealer and she's hiding that fact? It seems to me that until it can be demonstrated that there is some other association between Tara and TLM, we should assume there isn't. So far, everything suggests there is no connection between the two other than the fact that they both liked drugs, both lived in Woodstock, both lived in low cost housing, and so on. That doesn't make them friends, or suggest that they had anything to do with each other. TLM was a troubled teen, TLM was a divorced mom - nothing in common.

[Gugug]

I should have added the link.
http://www.globaltv.com/globaltv/national/SUSPECT+ACTED+REVENGE+TORI/1622098/story.html

Tara has given many conflicting accounts of what happened, right from the beginning, with multiple stories of where Tori and Daryn were supposed to go and what Tori was supposed to do after school. Then she didn't have a clue who the composite sketch resembled. Later she said she told the police exactly who she thought it was, and told them about TLM from the beginning. The stories changed, repeatedly, and some give her a pass, because there could be plausible reasons why she changed them. To me, it's a liar in action.

Why has she lied so many times? Is it her drug abuse (which she lied about too, BTW), or is it her character, or both? What is she trying to hide? Who is she trying to protect? Herself, or others, or both?

This is not to say that TM had any involvement in the murder of Tori. However, she did choose to use illegal drugs and travel in circles of thieves and addicts, a situation which placed her children at risk. She chose to bring a criminal to live in her family home. She is accountable to her children for those choices.

The link you provided also shows another strange clue to Tara's world. When asked how she wanted Tori to be remembered, it was for being pretty. I don't think that's how she will be remembered. She will be remembered as the innocent child of an addict who was kidnapped on her way home from school, and murdered.

No child deserves this. No parent deserves this. But at the end of the day, we all have to take a cold, hard look in the mirror and be accountable for our choices in life. Our choices have consequences, sometimes unforeseen and unspeakable. I wonder if TM will take that cold, hard look in the mirror, or if it would destroy her.

[Gugug]

I can't imagine why any of the adults in this tragedy would repeatedly make reference to Daryn's having any inadvertant responsibility. Yet Tara has mentioned it prominently in pc's and at least twice at the videographed memorial (so he can hear it over and over). It doesn't take a psychiatric professional to know this incident and Daryn's failure to walk Tori home (even though he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do) will have profound effect on his mental health. All children, even more so boys, tend to take too much adult responsibility upon themselves at that age. I keep thinking he has no understanding adult to approach about these feelings. I fear that in a very short time, he may also turn to self-medicating. After all, it's how adults cope with life in his world. I can't see this tragedy causing Tara and James to clean up their act. More likely to make them nose-dive. These are two grown people with children who turned to hard drugs to cope with the normal stress of living. No one's working, noone has an outside profession to consume their time. Making a living is not an important consideration for these people. And they are facing months of trials. Growing up in a house with 2 drug addicts and the nightmare of a murdered sister that Daryn's fate.

Besides all that, what about the insecurity Daryn must feel. He knows parents can't always protect their children. He's apparently allowed free access to the internet or at least access to inappropriate material. How bad are his nightmares? Does he have to go to bed feeling like he is the most responsible person in the house, when James and Tara are high on Oxy? It's a scary situation.

I realize there are many who can't overcompensate enough for having doubted Tara before the arrest. Therefore she is a candidate for mother of the year. No way. These are drug addicts and criminals raising children. I don't need an arrest record to know they are criminals. Abuse of narcotics is illegal and involves many illegal activites, from the procurement of funds to the purchase of illegal drugs. Some think Tara is reformed. That's not what I see and the history does not bear that out. They're both way too familiar with drug dealers and thieves. Oxy is very expensive and few jobs can support it, much less unemployment. It's paid with theft. How else do people without jobs pay $80 for 1 pill?

I respect and appreciate everyone's opinion. I get along quite well with people who do not agree with me. This is a place for opinions and these are some of my concerns. It is NOT OK for a child or children to be raised by drug addicts. The harm is often irreversible.

I agree with you.

[Orleaner12]

Tara has given many conflicting accounts of what happened, right from the beginning, with multiple stories of where Tori and Daryn were supposed to go and what Tori was supposed to do after school. Then she didn't have a clue who the composite sketch resembled. Later she said she told the police exactly who she thought it was, and told them about TLM from the beginning. The stories changed, repeatedly, and some give her a pass, because there could be plausible reasons why she changed them. To me, it's a liar in action.

Why has she lied so many times? Is it her drug abuse (which she lied about too, BTW), or is it her character, or both? What is she trying to hide? Who is she trying to protect? Herself, or others, or both?

This is not to say that TM had any involvement in the murder of Tori. However, she did choose to use illegal drugs and travel in circles of thieves and addicts, a situation which placed her children at risk. She chose to bring a criminal to live in her family home. She is accountable to her children for those choices.

The link you provided also shows another strange clue to Tara's world. When asked how she wanted Tori to be remembered, it was for being pretty. I don't think that's how she will be remembered. She will be remembered as the innocent child of an addict who was kidnapped on her way home from school, and murdered.

No child deserves this. No parent deserves this. But at the end of the day, we all have to take a cold, hard look in the mirror and be accountable for our choices in life. Our choices have consequences, sometimes unforeseen and unspeakable. I wonder if TM will take that cold, hard look in the mirror, or if it would destroy her.


I think Tara will "think about that tomorrow" to use a quote from a famous movie... she only came clean about her drug abuse because she knew the jig was up....she had been followed by reporters to the meth clinic so she knew she could only deny that for so long.

[Jester]

the system did not fail Tori...that started at home..since neither her Mother nor her step father were or are employed I would think it was their responsibility to make sure that Tori was taken care of after school..as Tara stated in one of her tales that Daryn was not supposed to be walking home with Tori that fateful day... the video does not show any force being made on Tori as she walked along with TLM and that seems to have been the impression of many... this family had dealing with the law previously and in any case of abduction the family is the first to be scrutinized and in this case there were many red flags...even upstanding Ed Smart who is neither divorced nor on welfare was looked at carefully by the police before being eliminated... from the PC's that Tara gave most of us picked up on her distorted stories so I can imagine how the police felt about that...it seems that Rodney and his family came under the same cloud but obviously they were eliminated because Rodney was wired by the police early on which indicates to me that TM & JG were still on suspicion for one thing or another...
IMO the school is NOT responsible for this in any way...dropping off and picking up a child is the responsibility of the parent and if a child has to leave school early for whatever reason the school is supplied with a list of authorized people by the parent, otherwise the child is not released on their own...I have noticed that even Tara herself has not placed any blame on the school and rightly so...

If my child did not return home from school, and there was video tape of him or her walking with someone that was a stranger to me, you can be sure I would be raising hell and someone would be listening. It would not matter if my child did not appear to be struggling ... if I didn't know that person that he or she was with, it would not be considered that he or she went willingly. In fact, who cares if it appears that an 8 year old is going willingly? They do it all the time ... 8 year olds usually do what they're told. It means nothing, as we know from several abductions. I recall a recent case where a 9 year old girl was asked if she wanted to see a puppy, and she willingly went with her abductor. Her brothers saw it happen and took the license number.

As for everyone picking up on Tara's stories and thinking that she was involved ... I did not. In fact, the first I knew that anyone was blaming the mother was right here on this forum. I watched news releases, and saw the uncle being investigated, but that's it.

Schools have forms that are sent home at the beginning of every school year. Included in those forms is information about who can pick up the child, their phone numbers, as well as other emergency contact info. That info is collected for a reason: to ensure that no one except approved adults collects the child. I'm negligent like Tara ... I have taken my child to school when there is no school (dumb, but true), I have been late collecting my child after school. I have always found him sitting in the office waiting for me. That is the school's policy.

[Orleaner12]

If my child did not return home from school, and there was video tape of him or her walking with someone that was a stranger to me, you can be sure I would be raising hell and someone would be listening. It would not matter if my child did not appear to be struggling ... if I didn't know that person that he or she was with, it would not be considered that he or she went willingly. In fact, who cares if it appears that an 8 year old is going willingly? They do it all the time ... 8 year olds usually do what they're told. It means nothing, as we know from several abductions. I recall a recent case where a 9 year old girl was asked if she wanted to see a puppy, and she willingly went with her abductor. Her brothers saw it happen and took the license number.

As for everyone picking up on Tara's stories and thinking that she was involved ... I did not. In fact, the first I knew that anyone was blaming the mother was right here on this forum. I watched news releases, and saw the uncle being investigated, but that's it.

Schools have forms that are sent home at the beginning of every school year. Included in those forms is information about who can pick up the child, their phone numbers, as well as other emergency contact info. That info is collected for a reason: to ensure that no one except approved adults collects the child. I'm negligent like Tara ... I have taken my child to school when there is no school (dumb, but true), I have been late collecting my child after school. I have always found him sitting in the office waiting for me. That is the school's policy.

I am not sure where you reside but in Ontario the forms are sent home at the start of the school year but they are for authorization of who can pick a child up DURING the school session in case the child is ill etc. this list has NOTHING to do with after school pickup, that is the responsibility of the parent once the child leaves the school doors unless the child is registered for an after school program (usually when a parent is still at work and will pick child up later). The child leaves the classroom and goes to a specified room that is supervised. When a parent or guardian (who must be on a list) picks the child up they must sign the child out. This school should not hold any blame for the outcome of Tori on that fateful day. That blame lies elsewhere IMO......

[Orleaner12]

If my child did not return home from school, and there was video tape of him or her walking with someone that was a stranger to me, you can be sure I would be raising hell and someone would be listening. It would not matter if my child did not appear to be struggling ... if I didn't know that person that he or she was with, it would not be considered that he or she went willingly. In fact, who cares if it appears that an 8 year old is going willingly? They do it all the time ... 8 year olds usually do what they're told. It means nothing, as we know from several abductions. I recall a recent case where a 9 year old girl was asked if she wanted to see a puppy, and she willingly went with her abductor. Her brothers saw it happen and took the license number.

As for everyone picking up on Tara's stories and thinking that she was involved ... I did not. In fact, the first I knew that anyone was blaming the mother was right here on this forum. I watched news releases, and saw the uncle being investigated, but that's it.

Schools have forms that are sent home at the beginning of every school year. Included in those forms is information about who can pick up the child, their phone numbers, as well as other emergency contact info. That info is collected for a reason: to ensure that no one except approved adults collects the child. I'm negligent like Tara ... I have taken my child to school when there is no school (dumb, but true), I have been late collecting my child after school. I have always found him sitting in the office waiting for me. That is the school's policy.



Just to clarify, this is not the only forum that stated with the blame on the Mother...I won't name the others but believe me there are a few along with the FB account that was opened by the Staffords..so we are not a rare breed on this forum...just astute in our observations..whether we are correct or not..well time will tell..

[Gugug]

I am not sure where you reside but in Ontario the forms are sent home at the start of the school year but they are for authorization of who can pick a child up DURING the school session in case the child is ill etc. this list has NOTHING to do with after school pickup, that is the responsibility of the parent once the child leaves the school doors unless the child is registered for an after school program (usually when a parent is still at work and will pick child up later). The child leaves the classroom and goes to a specified room that is supervised. When a parent or guardian (who must be on a list) picks the child up they must sign the child out. This school should not hold any blame for the outcome of Tori on that fateful day. That blame lies elsewhere IMO......

There is a sign-out list for the end of the day at my child's school. This is only for students who regularly ride the bus. Parents or anyone taking a child who normally rides the bus must go to the office and sign for them. Any non-custodial person must have the parent send a letter of authorization prior to the person arriving at the school, and with sufficient time for the school to check signatures and phone the parent/guardian in charge for confirmation. Otherwise, the child goes on the bus, and you have to pick them up at their designated stop.

Tori did not ride the school bus.

[Orleaner12]

There is a sign-out list for the end of the day at my child's school. This is only for students who regularly ride the bus. Parents or anyone taking a child who normally rides the bus must go to the office and sign for them. Any non-custodial person must have the parent send a letter of authorization prior to the person arriving at the school, and with sufficient time for the school to check signatures and phone the parent/guardian in charge for confirmation. Otherwise, the child goes on the bus, and you have to pick them up at their designated stop.

Tori did not ride the school bus.

as my child does not and has never rode the school bus I am not familiar with that policy. I only know the procedures that I have stated in my above post in regards to regular dismissal..Also my child's school policy was and is that no child is permitted on school grounds before 15minutes before start of school and must be off school grounds after 15 minutes at school day end..

[Amy]

Police apparently have enough evidence that TLM kidnapped Tori and that MR was involved. Tori does not appear to be amongst the living, so they have charged them with murder. Without a body, rape cannot be proven. That does not mean rape was not the motive, it only means that it cannot yet be proven.

As for assuming that TLM knew that Tori was Tara's daughter and therefore kidnapped her, that seems to go against everything said by both Tara and TLM. TLM has stated that she did not know Tori was Tara's daughter, Tara has said she had a brief association with TLM's drug infested mother but did not know TLM. Tara has come clean about her illegal drug history, so are you suggesting Tara is withholding information about her association with TLM's mother or TLM to protect them? Are you suggesting one or the other is Tara's drug dealer and she's hiding that fact? It seems to me that until it can be demonstrated that there is some other association between Tara and TLM, we should assume there isn't. So far, everything suggests there is no connection between the two other than the fact that they both liked drugs, both lived in Woodstock, both lived in low cost housing, and so on. That doesn't make them friends, or suggest that they had anything to do with each other. TLM was a troubled teen, TLM was a divorced mom - nothing in common.

Or, to protect someone other than TLM and/or her mother?

[Gugug]

I am looking back at some of the thoughts shared on this forum previously.

TLM and MR reportedly met in a pizza joint. Remember how I said that in the town where I used to live, people would make a special pizza order in code for delivery. Today I saw this article:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pizzeria+marijuana+dealer+avoids+jail/1684780/story.html

Thinking back to the car seat, I had questions about a certain autobody shop, and whether a person might pick up a new car seat that might have been removed from another person's car that was in for repair. The discarded material would go into a dumpster, and dumpsters where I live are emptied at a private dump. There is a connection in this case to an autobody shop.

I also wondered about heavy equipment theft in the area. News articles in the US point to this type of theft as having a link to organized crime, with equipment being sold or shipped overseas. What do you know, Peel Regional Police recently broke up such a theft ring.

The theft of something like a snowblower might be part of a much bigger picture in the criminal underworld. That's what I'm saying.

[Amy]

There is a sign-out list for the end of the day at my child's school. This is only for students who regularly ride the bus. Parents or anyone taking a child who normally rides the bus must go to the office and sign for them. Any non-custodial person must have the parent send a letter of authorization prior to the person arriving at the school, and with sufficient time for the school to check signatures and phone the parent/guardian in charge for confirmation. Otherwise, the child goes on the bus, and you have to pick them up at their designated stop.

Tori did not ride the school bus.

We also had forms for anyone picking a child up during the school day. My kids did not even need a note to walk instead of taking the bus. If another child was to come home w/one of my kids on the bus, I had to send a note to the school to allow that--me, not the mother of the other child. The bus drivers knew the kids who rode on their bus, and did weed out kids who should not be on. The only time they were told my kids wouldn't be riding was the days that I went to the bus to take them off if they had already boarded, and if not, I usually told the driver the driver they wouldn't be on. But, if they chose to walk home or walk to another kid's home, there was no check or balance for that. When the crowd of kids were gone, either on the buses or had been picked up, or walked, etc, the buses left. They did not wait around to see where Johnny was if he didn't board the bus.

[Gugug]

Or, to protect someone other than TLM and/or her mother?

That other someone is the question, IMO.

[Gugug]

We also had forms for anyone picking a child up during the school day. My kids did not even need a note to walk instead of taking the bus. If another child was to come home w/one of my kids on the bus, I had to send a note to the school to allow that--me, not the mother of the other child. The bus drivers knew the kids who rode on their bus, and did weed out kids who should not be on. The only time they were told my kids wouldn't be riding was the days that I went to the bus to take them off if they had already boarded, and if not, I usually told the driver the driver they wouldn't be on. But, if they chose to walk home or walk to another kid's home, there was no check or balance for that. When the crowd of kids were gone, either on the buses or had been picked up, or walked, etc, the buses left. They did not wait around to see where Johnny was if he didn't board the bus.

There is a policy at my child's school that the bus cannot leave the school until every child is accounted for. They cross-check the signout list from the school office. At my child's old school, it was a free-for-all, which is why he is no longer there.

But again, only for bus students. (They couldn't walk home; it's too far.)

[Gugug]

as my child does not and has never rode the school bus I am not familiar with that policy. I only know the procedures that I have stated in my above post in regards to regular dismissal..Also my child's school policy was and is that no child is permitted on school grounds before 15minutes before start of school and must be off school grounds after 15 minutes at school day end..

I suspect the school followed its rules in Tori's case.

I posted an article from the Toronto Sun a while back. A man who lived on the route Tori walked to school said he saw a woman walking a dog mornings and afternoons along that route in the days before Tori disappeared. People also reported seeing a woman talking to a girl outside the school in the days before Tori disappeared.

I guess that's why I've read that police investigators are supposed to ask not only what was unusual on the day of a crime, but what was normal.

[Gugug]

I am looking back at some of the thoughts shared on this forum previously.

TLM and MR reportedly met in a pizza joint. Remember how I said that in the town where I used to live, people would make a special pizza order in code for delivery. Today I saw this article:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pizzeria+marijuana+dealer+avoids+jail/1684780/story.html

Thinking back to the car seat, I had questions about a certain autobody shop, and whether a person might pick up a new car seat that might have been removed from another person's car that was in for repair. The discarded material would go into a dumpster, and dumpsters where I live are emptied at a private dump. There is a connection in this case to an autobody shop.

I also wondered about heavy equipment theft in the area. News articles in the US point to this type of theft as having a link to organized crime, with equipment being sold or shipped overseas. What do you know, Peel Regional Police recently broke up such a theft ring.

The theft of something like a snowblower might be part of a much bigger picture in the criminal underworld. That's what I'm saying.

Oh, look, an excavator taken during drug arrests on Mohawk land in Canada, with a Hells Angels connection:

http://www.macleans.ca/science/wire/article.jsp?content=n031486914

[Gugug]

If this testimony is to be believed, it is possible to buy a gun on a reserve near London:

http://www.lfpress.com/specialreports/bandidostrial.html

[Gugug]

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090529.BLATCH29ART22305/TPStory/TPComment/

Note this information:

"In the Homolka case, senior prosecutors made the deal before videotapes documenting Ms. Homolka's seemingly avid participation in the attacks were discovered.

But in this case they have given themselves a worst-case scenario out.

If Ms. McClintic were to refuse to testify against Mr. Rafferty, prosecutors could still seek to use any statement she gave police, even if she renounced it, at Mr. Rafferty's trial."

That's my last trip through the archives...today.

[Orleaner12]

thanks Gugug for all your links etc. interesting stuff..

I guess the search through the landfill is over..wonder when they will stop the rest of the search... MR will be in court tomorrow...I hope they have more on him than just the word of TLM....

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/06/11/9766006.html

[doctor_J]

I can't overlook that James and Tara failed their lie detectors. There's no excuse for that. If my child were abducted and I needed to eliminate myself so that the police could find the real killer, even if I were a drug addict, I would SO come clean on that test. Tara has told repeated lies, WHY?

[n/t]

I agree, Jester, TLM`s mother`s words may not be the most reliable in the world and aside from Rodney Stafford having strong feelings about this having been a targeted abduction (see link below), I don`t see confirmation of this by police as of yet, that`s true. Still, TLM`s mother`s and Rodney`s words are something to keep in mind or rather something that will either be proven meaningless during the trial or become of utter importance. We don`t know yet but time will tell. I don`t mean to pick on Tori`s family but feel it is important to remember that none of the previous inconsistencies are explained or resolved. With the sparse information we as "virtual investigators" have access to I can only hope that the real investigators will discover the truth for justice for Tori.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/639922

If they haven't discovered the truth by now, I don't know what else will.

Heck, Tara was taped, followed, set up and told she was the number one suspect because she didn't react as a normal mother would.

What more do they need? A car seat? Tori's remains?

[n/t]

I can't overlook that James and Tara failed their lie detectors. There's no excuse for that. If my child were abducted and I needed to eliminate myself so that the police could find the real killer, even if I were a drug addict, I would SO come clean on that test. Tara has told repeated lies, WHY?

We don't know that she "lied". Some of her answers may have come out as inconclusive. LE did not specifically come out and say she failed the polygraph, did they? If they did, I missed it.

I think people speculated based on what Tara herself said about the polygraph and concluded that she failed it based on what she herself said.

She had to face all these accusations straight out in the media. You know, I give her credit for that. I don't know if I'd be able to stand out there taking the BS thrown at me when I knew in my heart I had nothing to do with my child's disappearance.

I would've given up but she laid out her dirty laundry in hopes that people would stop looking at her and start looking for her little girl. She obviously didn't do a good job at it because people still think she's involved somehow. Maybe if she had the backup support like the McCanns do with a high paid spokesperson and government backup, she would've gotten some sympathy.

[n/t]

Right. There's a reason why polygraphs aren't admissable in court. I'm not saying it's not a good investigative tool but as we can see from this case, it became yet another strike against a mom who had nothing to do with her daughter's disappearance.

BTW....polygraphs are voluntary. They are not forced to take one.

[Orleaner12]

Right. There's a reason why polygraphs aren't admissable in court. I'm not saying it's not a good investigative tool but as we can see from this case, it became yet another strike against a mom who had nothing to do with her daughter's disappearance.

BTW....polygraphs are voluntary. They are not forced to take one.


most people who have nothing to hide would take a test if only to help eliminate themselves so the police could move forward... The Smarts did but the McCann's refused and look where that got them...

[n/t]

most people who have nothing to hide would take a test if only to help eliminate themselves so the police could move forward... The Smarts did but the McCann's refused and look where that got them...

Tara did and look where that got her.

[Orleaner12]

Tara did and look where that got her.


yes but she did not pass (for whatever reason) and Ed Smart along with John Walsh and Mark Klass did...

[n/t]

yes but she did not pass (for whatever reason) and Ed Smart along with John Walsh and Mark Klass did...


Ted Bundy passed.

[Orleaner12]

Ted Bundy passed.

Sociopaths are known to have the ability to pass a lie detector test and TB was one.....

I would never classify Tara as a sociopath....

[n/t]

Court appearance for one of the accused in Stafford case
http://www.570news.com/news/local/more.jsp?content=20090612_050714_7380

I wish they would say why he's appearing.

[n/t]

WOODSTOCK, Ont. - One of the two people accused in the abduction and killing of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford is scheduled to make a court appearance Friday.

Michael Thomas Rafferty, 28, is to appear in the Woodstock, Ont., courtroom via video link at 9:30 a.m.

The court proceeding is expected to be brief, said Rafferty's lawyer, Hal Mattson.

http://www.canada.com/news/Suspect+Tori+Stafford+case+make+court+appearance/1689194/story.html

I should've been an investigative reporter. It's like trying to pull teeth in getting information from the Canadian media. WTH is he appearing ?:rolleyes:

[Gugug]

Tara did and look where that got her.

Maybe the public is reacting to what they've seen and heard with their own eyes and ears. I don't think a lie detector test is necessary for that.

Let's see. She denied using drugs, then it came out that not only did she use drugs, she used them just before one of her press conferences, and was attending a methadone clinic. That threw her statement that drugs had nothing to do with Tori's disappearance out the window.

She denied having any clue about the person in the composite sketch, then later claimed to have told the police that she knew who it was. She added that she and JG had told the police about TLM from the beginning. She could have said something like Rodney did, without divulging to the media who she suspected. Lie!

Just these two examples throw into question many of the other statements she made.

She also told the media that JG's court appearance on theft charges had nothing to do with Tori. Now, having said the previous things about drug use, I question that statement, too.

Once a person starts telling lies, they lose all credibility. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

[Gugug]

WOODSTOCK, Ont. - One of the two people accused in the abduction and killing of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford is scheduled to make a court appearance Friday.

Michael Thomas Rafferty, 28, is to appear in the Woodstock, Ont., courtroom via video link at 9:30 a.m.

The court proceeding is expected to be brief, said Rafferty's lawyer, Hal Mattson.

http://www.canada.com/news/Suspect+Tori+Stafford+case+make+court+appearance/1689194/story.html

I should've been an investigative reporter. It's like trying to pull teeth in getting information from the Canadian media. WTH is he appearing ?:rolleyes:

My guess is that he's entering a plea to the new charges. Weren't the charges changed during the last court appearance, when separate trials were announced?

[Orleaner12]

any bets he will plead "not guilty" ha..... think the next date is July 17th..

[Jester]

I agree, Jester, TLM`s mother`s words may not be the most reliable in the world and aside from Rodney Stafford having strong feelings about this having been a targeted abduction (see link below), I don`t see confirmation of this by police as of yet, that`s true. Still, TLM`s mother`s and Rodney`s words are something to keep in mind or rather something that will either be proven meaningless during the trial or become of utter importance. We don`t know yet but time will tell. I don`t mean to pick on Tori`s family but feel it is important to remember that none of the previous inconsistencies are explained or resolved. With the sparse information we as "virtual investigators" have access to I can only hope that the real investigators will discover the truth for justice for Tori.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/639922

I can't imagine why an absent father would all of a sudden want to say that he thinks Tori's abduction was targeted. He had little to do with his children, so on what is he basing that statement?

[Gugug]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h5vMnSkMYEeUO-df_82o8woZd9fA

[DIANNAM]

The man accused of kidnapping and killing 8 year old Victoria Stafford will next appear in court in July. Twenty Eight year old Michael Rafferty appeared today in a Woodstock courtvia video from the London-Middlesex Detention Centre. His lawyer,Hal Mattson, asked the case be put over until July17. That will give his staff time to review the files and allow the Crown more time to get him full disclosure. Mattson says he doesnt expect the case to get rolling til 2010. Rafferty and 19 year old Terri-Lynne McClintic are both charged with first-degree murder and kidnapping in the case. Yesterday police finished scouring the Oxford County landfill. for clues and evidence in their search for Tori's body. The search continues in rural areas of Wellington County.

CJCS 1240 Radio

[Gugug]

Crime Stoppers is also asking for info on Tori:

http://www.oxfordcrimestoppers.org/Crimeoftheweek.html

April 23rd, 2009

Crime Stoppers continues to accept tips on the Tori Stafford – Abduction Case and thanks the public for their
tremendous support in helping to provide information to forward onto investigators. Crime Stoppers has also noticed
that there is still an excessive amount of trailer thefts within the County of Oxford. Included are; Sometime between
20 – 21 April 2009, a 1999 black Hitchman Trailer, bearing Ontario licence # A6917B, which was loaded with a 2000 Bobcat and skid steer loader, model 873 from Oxford Insta- shade in Holbrook.
Between 16 & 17th April, a 2009 Load Trail tandem axle ,black dump trailer, bearing Ontario licence plate # F5671C.
valued of $4500.00. from Oxford Pool and Spa, Woodstock.

Between 6th and 10th April a 14’ dump trailer bearing Ontario licence C7930D valued at $11,500.00 was stolen from the
rear of the storage shed on Cty Rd 17 in the township of East Zorra Tavistock

If you have any information on this crime or any other crime, call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-tips(8477). Crime Stopper
callers never have to identify themselves or give evidence in court and are eligible for a cash reward up to 2000.00.

Oh, look, the missing equipment again.

[north-eh]

Hi everyone, here's an interesting article I found on methadone.
From the addict's perspective:
http://intervention.org/methadone.htm
"addicts who have experienced Methadone have strong opinions. Some call it Goverment Wine"

N

[Orleaner12]

that article was quite the eye opener...thanks North eh! kids with parents on that must go through hell:scared:

[Amy]

most people who have nothing to hide would take a test if only to help eliminate themselves so the police could move forward... The Smarts did but the McCann's refused and look where that got them...

There have been cases where (usually the dad or stepdad) took LTD's and failed, yet ended up NOT being the perp. I'm sure investigators then felt justified in pursuing the dad(s) yet in reality wasted time because they quit following up any other clues for the time being.

[Orleaner12]

that is true re failing the test...I am not saying that just because Tara did fail that she is in any way involved directly with the abduction of Tori because I do not think that for a moment...what I do believe is that her & James's addiction with Oxy and TLM and her Mother may have had something to do with it.. the motive (whatever it may be)...it has been printed somewhere that TLM & MR were also Oxy users...