Appeal expected in Melanie McGuire Case

[nsm]

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009905300339

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009905300339

Isn't that standard procedure?

imo

[Cornblossom]

Isn't that standard procedure?

imo
Yes,it is standard procedure...OJ has filed an appeal as well.

[GentleBreeze]

Yes,it is standard procedure...OJ has filed an appeal as well.

Thanks, Corny.

imo

[annalyzer]

Yeah, good luck with that. :laugh:

[bchand]

Yeah, good luck with that. :laugh:

lol yep, the sooner they file the appeal, the sooner she'll realize she's not going anywhere.

[Tracian]

I still think that there is more to this case than we know; IMO, she had help, maybe if this appeal is denied she will have cause to attempt to bargain.

I just don't think she did this alone.

[panache]

I still think that there is more to this case than we know; IMO, she had help, maybe if this appeal is denied she will have cause to attempt to bargain.

I just don't think she did this alone.

Do you have anyone in mind?

[Tracian]

Do you have anyone in mind?


Maybe a family member, I don't know, but she is a slight person, and to be able to kill her husband, cut him up, clean the crime scene, stuff him in suitcases, load them in a car, drive them to a bridge, lug them up, and toss them in the river...I really think someone assisted her, perhaps 'after the fact' but I honestly just don't think she did it alone.

[SKARDYKAT]

Tracian, you took all those words out of my mouth.
I would be interested in following this appeal.
I can still see Joe Tacopina when the verdict was read
and I think his legs just about went out from under him.

[annalyzer]

I still think that there is more to this case than we know; IMO, she had help, maybe if this appeal is denied she will have cause to attempt to bargain.

I just don't think she did this alone.


Except for some thinking she was too petite to carry this off alone there is no evidence that anyone helped her that I can recall. She was determined and she carried it off. But she made mistakes and now she is where she belongs until she dies.

[Adalena935]

If that's her in the photo on the right, she looks bad. She was so cold and uncaring during her trial. I really dislike her. Totally self-absorbed diabolical woman.

[Tracian]

Except for some thinking she was too petite to carry this off alone there is no evidence that anyone helped her that I can recall. She was determined and she carried it off. But she made mistakes and now she is where she belongs until she dies.


Maybe I watch too much LIFETIME movie network,:lol: I just think that she had someone help her, and IMO, if she thinks she could shave off some time, she may roll over at some point.

[Tracian]

I think there was ample evidence that she drugged hubby, and killed him or let him suffocate from the drugs. (Was he also shot?) Then she cut him up (and the mattress of the bed was never found, remember). When you cut a 180 pound guy in half, and then take off the head, and the legs, it's down to nice juicy manageable weights...and she's smart enough NOT to involve anyone else in the act of the killing.

Help from dad in getting rid of evidence maybe. Help from friend in cleaning apt. There's not much there to charge dad or friend with, other than hindering or conspiracy after the fact. IMO

Good luck Melanie... you'll need it to get anywhere other than prison.


What amazes me about this case is the clean up. CSI has found blood from years eariler in some cases, but IIRC they even removed plate covers, molding and found nothing. Nothing in the drains...or traps.

I didn't follow this case super well, mostly what I saw on 'Snapped' and 48 hours...did they ever say where she got the sawzall?

[SKARDYKAT]

You would think when such a horrendous thing would happen to a body, that you could not clean up good enough. And, you would have to get rid of more than a mattress.
Just a devil's advocate here.....:shrug:

[panache]

I agree with ya'll on that...I don't think she did it alone and I don't think she did it in that apartment. I didn't follow the whole trial but people would have heard that saw and the 'cleanup' was done too well. I just don't believe she could have cut him up and not left something, anything behind... I actually thought about her while moving and getting our house ready to sell. It reeked of bleach for days because I fell in love with Clorox Cleanup...It reminded me of the testimony of how her apartment smelled of bleach.

There were no neighbors around to hear that saw.

[Tracian]

I think she cut him up somewhere other than the apt. He was killed in the bed, but the cutting up took place elsewhere. Now how did she get his body to somewhere else without leaving a trace of blood anywhere? I have to leave this to someone's imagination..how about a nurse taking her husband out on a stretcher at 3 AM? (She could arrange that!) But instead of going to a hospital or clinic with the hubby, just going to some wooded area in NJ, away from people and cutting up the body there.

That is possible. The DA surmised that she cut him up in the bathroom tub, and due to how clean the bathroom was, she offered that as proof of the dismemberment happening there.

This case is bizarre, IMO, I think she is guilty, but I do think also, that someone so far has gotten away with crimes regarding this case.

[4Life]

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009905300339

That is standard procedure.

She is not going any where

[SKARDYKAT]

You would think that when an appeal is filed, you could get more information than "new facts". Wouldn't they have to state those facts in the request? Maybe I need to do some digging.
(HUH, like I would know where to start.)

[4Life]

You would think that when an appeal is filed, you could get more information than "new facts". Wouldn't they have to state those facts in the request? Maybe I need to do some digging.
(HUH, like I would know where to start.)
All I know is, new evidence is not part of the appellate process. From what I know it is only about inncorrect ruling

[bookie]

All I know is, new evidence is not part of the appellate process. From what I know it is only about inncorrect ruling


New evidence can and often is part of the appelate process.


In throwing out the sentence and ordering a new trial for Soteras, Judge Robert Anderson said information obtained recently from two witnesses and a sworn statement from the other driver involved in the crash undermined the first-degree murder conviction.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1604068.html

[4Life]

New evidence can and often is part of the appelate process.


In throwing out the sentence and ordering a new trial for Soteras, Judge Robert Anderson said information obtained recently from two witnesses and a sworn statement from the other driver involved in the crash undermined the first-degree murder conviction.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1604068.html For a murder appeal in NJ/NY, new evidence will not be heard

An appeal is based upon the papers and evidence used at the lower court. No new evidence can be used.

http://www.robertcohenlawoffice.com/WhatisanAppeal.shtml

[bookie]

New evidence can and often is part of the appelate process.


In throwing out the sentence and ordering a new trial for Soteras, Judge Robert Anderson said information obtained recently from two witnesses and a sworn statement from the other driver involved in the crash undermined the first-degree murder conviction.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1604068.html


Too late to edit so I'm quoting my post.

I think you are thinking of death penalty cases where the automatic (first) appeal deals with the court record.

[bookie]

For a murder appeal in NJ/NY, new evidence will not be heard

An appeal is based upon the papers and evidence used at the lower court. No new evidence can be used.

http://www.robertcohenlawoffice.com/WhatisanAppeal.shtml

I just posted a link for a case in NJ that was overturned in part due to new evidence.

[4Life]

I just posted a link for a case in NJ that was overturned in part due to new evidence.

From what I know in NJ, no new evidence can be used in an appeal, but if the appeal is granted then new evidence can be used. The appeal is for trial court error.

[4Life]

I just posted a link for a case in NJ that was overturned in part due to new evidence.

That link was a case in Chicago

[aproudmom]

Isn't that standard procedure?

imo

yes everyone usually appeals they say they have new evidence well it better be pretty good or I don't think she has a chance. May teach her not to cut up hubby every again

An appeal is part of the normal process, Prezioso said.

[hiitsme]

[QUOTE=aproudmom;13155805]yes everyone usually appeals they say they have new evidence well it better be pretty good or I don't think she has a chance. May teach her not to cut up hubby every again

An appeal is part of the normal process, Prezioso said.[/QUOTE

Everyone is entitled to one but this will get as far as the Peterson and Spector appeals will. Chances in all three cases are slim to none! Justice was served. MOO

[trialwatchr]

Howdy Folks,

I followed this trial too, pretty closely. It was an interesting case. I am curious to see on what grounds they are filing this appeal, at the 11th hour with several extensions granted...Poor Ol' Mel, of course she was shocked to have been found guilty, she was/is delusional thinking she would get away with murdering the father of her children and then marry the doc who was using her. Doh! :cursing:

[trialwatchr]

Maybe I watch too much LIFETIME movie network,:lol: I just think that she had someone help her, and IMO, if she thinks she could shave off some time, she may roll over at some point.

And I would really love to see her confess, for the McGuires, for the Rices, and all who loved Bill, for the truth to finally come out of her own mouth.

[Len]

I agree with ya'll on that...I don't think she did it alone and I don't think she did it in that apartment. I didn't follow the whole trial but people would have heard that saw and the 'cleanup' was done too well. I just don't believe she could have cut him up and not left something, anything behind... I actually thought about her while moving and getting our house ready to sell. It reeked of bleach for days because I fell in love with Clorox Cleanup...It reminded me of the testimony of how her apartment smelled of bleach.



It will be interesting to see what happens with the appeal. I agree with you that the evidence does not support the apartment as the murder place. I still have doubts about this case, as there was no convincing physical evidence linking her to the crime. Only circumstantial. I would not be surprised if the appeal goes thru and at the end we find out that she did not commit the crime. I think that is a real possibility IMO.

[seawolf4]

I respectfully disagree. All evidence is circumstantial except for a confession or an eyewitnes. Everything else, including DNA, etc. is circumstantial. Albet there is strong circumstantial and weak circumstatial cases. I think this was a very strong circumstantial case.
I agree with the prosecution that the dismemberment took place in that bathroom, thus the bathroom "debris" (sp) on the duct tape that was used to close the trash bags. Anyone who has worked with bloody surgeries or blood shipments should know that there are "pads" that will absorb all blood.
What about her purchasing the gun in a different state that was never found? the same type of gun he was shot with? what about her on tape getting out of his car in AC? What about her continual lying? This is just to name a few of the things that were presented at trial.
If the suitcases, which were their own, had not washed up she may very well and gotten away with this murder. Her appeal will be denied and she will remain in jail.
This is MOO. And now I am off to work. Guess that makes me a "post and run" LOL
And a good day to all.

[Topaz]

There was quite of a bit of defense trickery in this trial don't forget.

Huge newspaper spreads over Easter holiday saying MM passed a lie detector test. (was not admitted into evidence because of NJ law as explained by the judge)...but that was a huge publicity stunt using the media to get to the jury.

Two witnesses claimed, to get MM off. One during the defense portion, who claimed to be on that bridge etc. And one after the verdict, a crook who lied to get favors. Both were faked.

So I would wonder what the "new evidence" really is, and how reliable it could be!

I think the mountain of evidence was just huge. Her own admissions also sank her. Whoever moved that car, had WM's tissue on their shoes. And she admits to moving it. I think she did this, planned it, and tried in a very damning way to cover it up. All she accomplished was creating more attention to herself with all her lies. Honest people don't do this. And don't forget the jury watched her carefully during this long trial. I, like others here have said, found her cold, and arrogant. The only time she showed real tears was when her friend complimented her and when she realized she was found guilty. Tears for herself!

She is going to be staying there in prison, IMO.

[Len]

There was quite of a bit of defense trickery in this trial don't forget.

Huge newspaper spreads over Easter holiday saying MM passed a lie detector test. (was not admitted into evidence because of NJ law as explained by the judge)...but that was a huge publicity stunt using the media to get to the jury.

Two witnesses claimed, to get MM off. One during the defense portion, who claimed to be on that bridge etc. And one after the verdict, a crook who lied to get favors. Both were faked.

So I would wonder what the "new evidence" really is, and how reliable it could be!

I think the mountain of evidence was just huge. Her own admissions also sank her. Whoever moved that car, had WM's tissue on their shoes. And she admits to moving it. I think she did this, planned it, and tried in a very damning way to cover it up. All she accomplished was creating more attention to herself with all her lies. Honest people don't do this. And don't forget the jury watched her carefully during this long trial. I, like others here have said, found her cold, and arrogant. The only time she showed real tears was when her friend complimented her and when she realized she was found guilty. Tears for herself!

She is going to be staying there in prison, IMO.


Hey Topaz,
Nice to see you again. We will finally find out what happens with the appeal. Although there was a lot of circumstantial evidence and she may well be guilty, I still have doubts. For a simple reason. Some of the "physical" (CH, tissues, hair stubble DNA) evidence seemed to me overly exaggerated and "over interpreted" by the prosecution and that makes me wonder what else could have been possibly exaggerated and over interpreted in the whole case.

[RayStar]

Seawolf4 I don't think the crime happened in that bathroom. I am more suspect of her workplace.
I have always questioned how the jury would be able to find her guilty. Well, whether or not the state proved its case. I was leaning toward the not proven guilty side. The lady DA was a terror. Excellent at her job.
If she does win an appeal, I hope she doesn't drag someone else into it.

[Len]

Seawolf4 I don't think the crime happened in that bathroom. I am more suspect of her workplace.
I have always questioned how the jury would be able to find her guilty. Well, whether or not the state proved its case. I was leaning toward the not proven guilty side. The lady DA was a terror. Excellent at her job.
If she does win an appeal, I hope she doesn't drag someone else into it.


I used to believe that the case was not proven BARD, but that MM was somehow guilty, possibly as an accomplice to the crime. Now I think it is very possible that she is innocent. The fact that Baker Bots took her appeal pro-bono says something about the case. I am very curious to find our what is in the appeal. This case has so much mystery and so many unanswered questions left.

[Great Dane]

I think there was ample evidence that she drugged hubby, and killed him or let him suffocate from the drugs. (Was he also shot?) Then she cut him up (and the mattress of the bed was never found, remember). When you cut a 180 pound guy in half, and then take off the head, and the legs, it's down to nice juicy manageable weights...and she's smart enough NOT to involve anyone else in the act of the killing.

Help from dad in getting rid of evidence maybe. Help from friend in cleaning apt. There's not much there to charge dad or friend with, other than hindering or conspiracy after the fact. IMO

Good luck Melanie... you'll need it to get anywhere other than prison.

Actually, I thought Brad admitted helping her get rid of the mattress along with some other furniture? I think they rented a van and brought it to a dump.That was one of my main issues....how could she have disposed of a blood filled/stained mattress with her lover, without him noticing? The NJ LE let the case sit idle or with the Virginia police for so long that pieces of evidence, such as the mattress were gone by the time the case went to trial...

The thought that she dragged sawdust pieces of his flesh into the car mat, without leaving a trace of them in between the hard wood floors of the TH, without even a piece of bone or flesh or DNA in the pipes...does not make sense....

I think they said it could not have occured at the work place, soemthing to do with security, things being locked....if she would have went there, or BM it would have been documented somehow...I forget the particulars, but that was not a possibility....

[BigDude]

Actually, I thought Brad admitted helping her get rid of the mattress along with some other furniture? I think they rented a van and brought it to a dump.That was one of my main issues....how could she have disposed of a blood filled/stained mattress with her lover, without him noticing? The NJ LE let the case sit idle or with the Virginia police for so long that pieces of evidence, such as the mattress were gone by the time the case went to trial...

The thought that she dragged sawdust pieces of his flesh into the car mat, without leaving a trace of them in between the hard wood floors of the TH, without even a piece of bone or flesh or DNA in the pipes...does not make sense....

I think they said it could not have occured at the work place, soemthing to do with security, things being locked....if she would have went there, or BM it would have been documented somehow...I forget the particulars, but that was not a possibility....

Great dane:

Did you see the testimony of Justin Merrero? He is the one who took the mattress along with a friend. They also got the furniture. All furniture was in perfect condition.

The specs on the floot matt were only microscopic and I thought they said that they could not have been seen with the naked eye. So very inconsequential, IMO.

[bugsy]

Oh boy... here we go again.

Should be an interesting week.

[Great Dane]

Great dane:

Did you see the testimony of Justin Merrero? He is the one who took the mattress along with a friend. They also got the furniture. All furniture was in perfect condition.

The specs on the floot matt were only microscopic and I thought they said that they could not have been seen with the naked eye. So very inconsequential, IMO.

All of the details get a little fuzzy at times, in regards to who was with her when they moved the stuff etc. but the basic premise is the same....no one saw a bloody mattress, no bullet holes, the green fiber didn't match, no DNA....which is all of a sudden proof....if they searched my bathroom, they would also not find any of WM's DNA, maybe I should hire a lawyer...lol

Certain pieces of evidence, like the CH seem more definite and have been a cause for major questioning on my own behalf, the nail in the coffin as I usually say...but, even that IMO can be speculative....since they never tested the blood for it, since it leaves the blood quickly, since the pharmacy can't recall who picked up the script....and while it was written out to Tiffany Bain, a former patient of RMA, on a BM script....it points directly to MM, unless of course people in NJ talk, and someone else had access to the knowledge that Tiffany Bain was a patient etc...did a handwriting specialist verify this particular script with MM's handwriting? or just Brad Miller????

[Pooh]

I have always been in MM's corner. I don't believe for a second she was involved in Bill's murder. It was convenient for the prosecution to go after her in this case. I'm hopeful the upcoming appeal will be her ticket to freedom. It's scary what the legal system can do to people who are innocent. This case has opened my eyes to the real possibility of the DA bringing cases against the wrong people.

And before you guilty people jump all over me, it's a free country and I'm allowed to have my own opinion. :)

[annalyzer]

I have always been in MM's corner. I don't believe for a second she was involved in Bill's murder. It was convenient for the prosecution to go after her in this case. I'm hopeful the upcoming appeal will be her ticket to freedom. It's scary what the legal system can do to people who are innocent. This case has opened my eyes to the real possibility of the DA bringing cases against the wrong people.

And before you guilty people jump all over me, it's a free country and I'm allowed to have my own opinion. :)

Of course you can have your opinion. Now can you explain away the evidence against her? The gun, the bullets she purchased that matched the one that killed her husband, the luggage, the trashbags, the moving of the car, the bit of her husband's flesh found in his car that she admitted to moving, the forging of the prescription, the ez pass records...

Hmmm, did I leave out anything?

[Len]

Of course you can have your opinion. Now can you explain away the evidence against her? The gun, the bullets she purchased that matched the one that killed her husband, the luggage, the trashbags, the moving of the car, the bit of her husband's flesh found in his car that she admitted to moving, the forging of the prescription, the ez pass records...

Hmmm, did I leave out anything?


Well, some of this evidence may be very questionable. Like the trash bags were "matched", but no controls were used. Meaning that the matching may not be reliable (IMO of course). The "flesh" in the car is the most unreliable evidence in my opinion. There were only deep skin tissues, while in case like that one would expect other tissues as well.

[annalyzer]

Well, some of this evidence may be very questionable. Like the trash bags were "matched", but no controls were used. Meaning that the matching may not be reliable (IMO of course). The "flesh" in the car is the most unreliable evidence in my opinion. There were only deep skin tissues, while in case like that one would expect other tissues as well.

Yes some evidence can be picked away at but when you add up the total evidence against her it presents a clear picture. There is no way of getting around the evidence of the gun and bullets. I think it was never proven exactly where Melanie killed and chopped up her husband and that is why some have doubts as to whether she is guilty. Also some believe she is too petite to have been able to carry if off. I don't.

[annalyzer]

The prosecutor skipped spotlight and stuck to evidence

Posted by The Star-Ledger July 17, 2007 12:13PM
Categories: McGuire murder trial

Date: 2007/04/24

Series: THE McGUIRE VERDICT


The prosecutor skipped spotlight and stuck to evidence
By MARK DiIONNO
STAR-LEDGER STAFF

Prosecuting attorney Patti Prezioso went into this case understanding the public fascination with Melanie McGuire and appreciating the charismatic, media-friendly quality of defense attorney Joe Tacopina. Prezioso knew she wasn't the star of the show.

And she never tried to be.

In fact, Prezioso did the opposite. She dampened her personality to let the evidence rise.

That was never more apparent than last Tuesday when, for three hours, she faced the jury, recounting six weeks of testimony and evidence as she summed up the state's case against McGuire.

Over and over, Prezioso used the word "evidence."

"The evidence should guide your decision."

"There is a myriad of evidence that leads right to the defendant."

"This is not about drama. This is not about looks. It is about evidence, and the evidence speaks loud and clear."

She talked about how the absence of evidence sometimes speaks louder than evidence.

"Yes, there is no evidence of Bill McGuire's DNA in the bathroom, but there was no evidence of Melanie McGuire's DNA or (their) children's DNA, either. It was all wiped away."

The state had 55 boxes of evidence, and Prezioso did her best to empty each one for the jury.

Chemical evidence of similarities between the bags used to wrap Bill McGuire's body and those found in the home of her parents; DNA evidence of particles of Bill McGuire's flesh, found in the car Melanie McGuire admitted moving after he disappeared; ballistics evidence of bullets used to kill him, the same kind Melanie McGuire had purchased, with the gun, days before his death.

The prosecutor showed a minute-by-minute timeline of Melanie McGuire's actions in the days after her husband's disappearance, using extensive cell phone and E-ZPass records to establish that McGuire had time to drive to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel, dump her husband's body and make it back home in time for a lunch date.

"And during all that time, about nine hours," Prezioso said, "this woman who virtually lives on the telephone, made only 12 minutes of cell phone calls."

When she finished, the jury was given instructions by Judge Frederick De Vesa and sent home to rest up for deliberations. McGuire and her family quickly left the building, and behind them went the small army of television people from all three networks and Court TV, the freelance writers and courtroom bloggers and news reporters.

Tacopina was escorted into the white Court TV production tent anchored outside the Middlesex County Courthouse.

As the residual rain and wind from last week's nor'easter tore at the flaps, the defense attorney could be seen inside, sitting in a director's chair, facing the white lights of the camera, even brighter on this dismal day, talking to the nation of Melanie-watchers.

Outside, Prezioso walked by, lugging her own files on a wheelie cart, her head down against the wind-whipped misty rain, with her unruly head of black curly hair, uncut for six weeks, blowing crazy.

There were no cameras, no media tagging along.

And that was just the way Prezioso wanted it. Her case strategy -- and overall philosophy -- has always been to let the evidence speak for itself.

In a world where courtroom drama has crossed the line into entertainment, Patricia Prezioso has made a career of not playing that game.

"Courtrooms weren't designed to be theaters," she said last week. "There is only one audience I'm concerned with. The 12 people in the jury box aren't watching me for entertainment, they're watching me to help them make a serious decision."

And she is serious. As serious as the charges she prosecuted in the McGuire case.

"I learned working in Morgenthau's office to approach this job as meticulous and professional as possible," she said, referring to Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. "It's important for a jury to see me as a credible public servant. Work as a prosecutor is the most important job in government. I don't want to make it sound corny, but I truly believe justice must be served."

Prezioso made it clear she didn't begrudge the defense team the attention it received and, in fact, thinks aiming the term "celebrity lawyer" at Tacopina was unfair.

"Joe is an excellent attorney," she said. "He was able to turn some of our evidence and witnesses to his advantage. I learned some things watching him."

She also realized Tacopina's personality -- the humor, flair, charm and, when he needed it, the bare-knuckled chivalry he showed in defending his client -- was not something she could, or would, compete with.

"That's not my fight to be in . . . My fight is to get justice done," she said. "I need to make sure the jury hears the witnesses and the evidence. My job is not to create other noise."

And so yesterday, the jury told her they heard the evidence loud and clear.

"That summation was outstanding," said assistant prosecutor Chris Romanyshyn after the verdict. "She brought in all the small pieces of evidence and made a compelling case. She outlined it beautifully."

When the verdict came in, Prezioso was finally pushed to center stage. At a news conference at the Middlesex County Prosecutor's Office, she was publicly congratulated by her bosses, Attorney General Stuart Rabner and Criminal Justice chief Gregory Paw, and was publicly thanked by Cindy Ligosh, Bill McGuire's sister, on behalf of the McGuire family.

When that was over, Patti Prezioso was grabbed by a television producer and led out into the sun toward the Court TV tent, reluctantly ready for her close-up.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerarchives/20...d_spotlig.html
__________________

[annalyzer]

Assistant Attorney General Patricia Prezioso told jurors McGuire forged a prescription for a powerful sedative, chloral hydrate, using the name of a patient from her clinic April 28, 2004, the day her husband disappeared.


http://pysih.com/2007/06/05/melanie-mcguire/

[Great Dane]

Assistant Attorney General Patricia Prezioso told jurors McGuire forged a prescription for a powerful sedative, chloral hydrate, using the name of a patient from her clinic April 28, 2004, the day her husband disappeared.


http://pysih.com/2007/06/05/melanie-mcguire/

PP told jurors a lot of things, most of which were speculative....she could not produce any proff that the murder took place in the TH, but she said it happened there, she could not prove that the CH was put into a glass of wine, but she told them they were drinking wine, she could not porve that the green fiber matched ANYTHING in MM's apartment, yet she spoke about MM placing the pillow over his face and shooting him, she can not produce a gun, the bullets, any DNA....yet, she put together a story, wrapped up nice and tight with a bow....

WM was a felon, as a felon he could not purchase his own gun....MM has lied in the past for WM under oath for a driving infraction, why not break the law again and buy him a gun?

If you live in the NJ area, you too may have had matching garbage bags and no DNA in your betheroom, perhaps you or anyone else with the same circumstances could have also faced trial and lost....:crying:

I'm not saying that she is innocent...I'm saying she was never PROVEN GUILTY BARD....

[BigDude]

Assistant Attorney General Patricia Prezioso told jurors McGuire forged a prescription for a powerful sedative, chloral hydrate, using the name of a patient from her clinic April 28, 2004, the day her husband disappeared.


http://pysih.com/2007/06/05/melanie-mcguire/


Anna,

BM said it was not MM's signature of "Miller".

[BigDude]

Yes some evidence can be picked away at but when you add up the total evidence against her it presents a clear picture. There is no way of getting around the evidence of the gun and bullets. I think it was never proven exactly where Melanie killed and chopped up her husband and that is why some have doubts as to whether she is guilty. Also some believe she is too petite to have been able to carry if off. I don't.

Anna:

I agree the bullets are a problem.

[Topaz]

And Scott Turano said in his opening defense speech that it was a MOB hit... "Where do they shoot you? Here and "here" " . Defense never delivered on that speculation, and the jury probably noticed and was not impressed.

Never one speck of data/proof about the MOB. And not one
speck of evidence from the defense on MM and WM's personal finances to prove defense allegations that gambling was the motive for his demise.

This is sort of like "the bushy haired stranger" who gets blamed in many crimes as perp.

[Len]

And Scott Turano said in his opening defense speech that it was a MOB hit... "Where do they shoot you? Here and "here" " . Defense never delivered on that speculation, and the jury probably noticed and was not impressed.

Never one speck of data/proof about the MOB. And not one
speck of evidence from the defense on MM and WM's personal finances to prove defense allegations that gambling was the motive for his demise.

This is sort of like "the bushy haired stranger" who gets blamed in many crimes as perp.



Good points. But that does not change the fact that the case was not proven BARD (IMO of course). IMO she was convicted based on a lot of weak evidence and scenarios that were accepted as facts. She may well be guilty, but she may not.

The only absolutely solid evidence IMO was her buying a gun that was likely used in the murder. Everything else can be argued and have various explanations (IMO). Anyway, we will find out what happens with the appeal.

[Great Dane]

Good points. But that does not change the fact that the case was not proven BARD (IMO of course). IMO she was convicted based on a lot of weak evidence and scenarios that were accepted as facts. She may well be guilty, but she may not.

The only absolutely solid evidence IMO was her buying a gun that was likely used in the murder. Everything else can be argued and have various explanations (IMO). Anyway, we will find out what happens with the appeal.

Len,

Even the gun purchase makes sense. If WM told her he wanted a gun, but couldn't get one because of his record....what reason would she use for not buying it for her husband? I'm sure she was looking for any reason to keep Bill happy and carry on with Brad....who would have ever thought he would show up shot, possibly with his own gun and cut up and stuffed into three suitcases? Who could have anticipated "that"???? "IF" her intent was to kill Bill, why buy wad cutter bullets?

[Topaz]

Motive Means Opportunity....

MM had all three. She places herself in two parts of the crime scenes with her own words. AC/car moving and The Bridge.

She has no alibi.
She did not report him missing.
She lied consistently about just about everything to LE.

She lied and lied, and for what reason? To protect herself, and/or her doctor lover? She planned this...her emails to Finn point to her planning it.

There is plenty of evidence in this case. Now that time has passed, the intensity of the trial etc does wane. But that does not dilute what happened and how it happened. No one ever knows the details of all crimes. The vast majority of Ted Bundy's crime details are totally unknown, for example. Many murderers take to their graves details about their activities ...it happens all the time. This case is not any different.

This is one devious murderer, IMO.

[Great Dane]

Motive Means Opportunity....

MM had all three. She places herself in two parts of the crime scenes with her own words. AC/car moving and The Bridge.

She has no alibi.
She did not report him missing.
She lied consistently about just about everything to LE.

She lied and lied, and for what reason? To protect herself, and/or her doctor lover? She planned this...her emails to Finn point to her planning it.

There is plenty of evidence in this case. Now that time has passed, the intensity of the trial etc does wane. But that does not dilute what happened and how it happened. No one ever knows the details of all crimes. The vast majority of Ted Bundy's crime details are totally unknown, for example. Many murderers take to their graves details about their activities ...it happens all the time. This case is not any different.

This is one devious murderer, IMO.


No alibi? No one even knows the exact date and time or his death....

CL didn't report him missing either....he and MM were using an out of state address for their car insurance, which is illegal....it was the reason she and CL gave for being hesitant about waiting to contact LE....plus if he left in a huff and they weren't speaking....

A lot of people lie, think it will make them look better...sometimes the truth isn't always pretty either....

MM isn't a saint, but she's no where near a Ted Bundy either....:mellow:

[Jupiter]

She planned it…

The evidence speaks for itself…

She might not have done it in the apartment…

Doesn’t matter…

Anyone who doesn’t think or believe there wasn’t enough evidence to convict her in this case must not realize how people get convicted everyday with much less evidence to show.

It was the job of her defense lawyers to create doubt in the minds of the jurors. They didn’t create enough doubt to convince them to ignore the mountain of evidence that pointed towards her being guilty.

The system works.

She will very more than likely remain in jail for the rest of her days, as she should.

[4Life]

Anna,

BM said it was not MM's signature of "Miller". No he said it was his signiture but looked like MMs handwriting

[nsm]

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20090530/NEWS/905300339/1003/NEWS0107/2+years+after+Middlesex+County+guilty+verdict++app eal+expected+in+Melanie+McGuire+slaying+case

[Len]

No alibi? No one even knows the exact date and time or his death....


Exactly. Also my recollection is that based on the timeline of events, if the murder did not happen in the apartment, it would have been impossible for MM to have been the physical killer somewhere else. That may be exactly the reason that the prosecution's theory was that the murder happened in the TH. The problem is that there was zero evidence for a crime scene at the TH. That alone creates reasonable doubt (IMO of course).

[Great Dane]

She planned it…

The evidence speaks for itself…

She might not have done it in the apartment…

Doesn’t matter…

Anyone who doesn’t think or believe there wasn’t enough evidence to convict her in this case must not realize how people get convicted everyday with much less evidence to show.

It was the job of her defense lawyers to create doubt in the minds of the jurors. They didn’t create enough doubt to convince them to ignore the mountain of evidence that pointed towards her being guilty.

The system works.

She will very more than likely remain in jail for the rest of her days, as she should.

I think JT dropped the ball, I think he thought the evidence while plentiful, was not nearly enough to convict her for life....I think PP's closing argument was the one thing that painted a picture, tied it all together...problem is, half of what she said wasn't "factual"....and I don't know if it was the reading of the message boards, or what....but IMO the jury didn't take the time to take each piece of evidence apart....I would have never been able to send her away for life on the evidence presented....>maybe that makes me a fool, I'm not sure....but, I to this day still have doubts and have spoken to others that agree....:confused:

[4Life]

No he said it was his signiture but looked like MMs handwriting

Too late to edit, The above should read:
No, he said it was not his signiture but the handwriting looked like MMs

[Great Dane]

Too late to edit, The above should read:
No, he said it was not his signiture but the handwriting looked like MMs

Oh thats good, because Brad is a handwriting specialist in addition to being a fertility doctor...lol

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist....:w00t:

[ksk1]

The prosecutor skipped spotlight and stuck to evidence

Posted by The Star-Ledger July 17, 2007 12:13PM
Categories: McGuire murder trial

Date: 2007/04/24

Series: THE McGUIRE VERDICT


The prosecutor skipped spotlight and stuck to evidence
By MARK DiIONNO
STAR-LEDGER STAFF

Prosecuting attorney Patti Prezioso went into this case understanding the public fascination with Melanie McGuire and appreciating the charismatic, media-friendly quality of defense attorney Joe Tacopina. Prezioso knew she wasn't the star of the show.

And she never tried to be.

In fact, Prezioso did the opposite. She dampened her personality to let the evidence rise.

That was never more apparent than last Tuesday when, for three hours, she faced the jury, recounting six weeks of testimony and evidence as she summed up the state's case against McGuire.

Over and over, Prezioso used the word "evidence."

"The evidence should guide your decision."

"There is a myriad of evidence that leads right to the defendant."

"This is not about drama. This is not about looks. It is about evidence, and the evidence speaks loud and clear."

She talked about how the absence of evidence sometimes speaks louder than evidence.

"Yes, there is no evidence of Bill McGuire's DNA in the bathroom, but there was no evidence of Melanie McGuire's DNA or (their) children's DNA, either. It was all wiped away."

The state had 55 boxes of evidence, and Prezioso did her best to empty each one for the jury.

Chemical evidence of similarities between the bags used to wrap Bill McGuire's body and those found in the home of her parents; DNA evidence of particles of Bill McGuire's flesh, found in the car Melanie McGuire admitted moving after he disappeared; ballistics evidence of bullets used to kill him, the same kind Melanie McGuire had purchased, with the gun, days before his death.

The prosecutor showed a minute-by-minute timeline of Melanie McGuire's actions in the days after her husband's disappearance, using extensive cell phone and E-ZPass records to establish that McGuire had time to drive to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel, dump her husband's body and make it back home in time for a lunch date.

"And during all that time, about nine hours," Prezioso said, "this woman who virtually lives on the telephone, made only 12 minutes of cell phone calls."

When she finished, the jury was given instructions by Judge Frederick De Vesa and sent home to rest up for deliberations. McGuire and her family quickly left the building, and behind them went the small army of television people from all three networks and Court TV, the freelance writers and courtroom bloggers and news reporters.

Tacopina was escorted into the white Court TV production tent anchored outside the Middlesex County Courthouse.

As the residual rain and wind from last week's nor'easter tore at the flaps, the defense attorney could be seen inside, sitting in a director's chair, facing the white lights of the camera, even brighter on this dismal day, talking to the nation of Melanie-watchers.

Outside, Prezioso walked by, lugging her own files on a wheelie cart, her head down against the wind-whipped misty rain, with her unruly head of black curly hair, uncut for six weeks, blowing crazy.

There were no cameras, no media tagging along.

And that was just the way Prezioso wanted it. Her case strategy -- and overall philosophy -- has always been to let the evidence speak for itself.

In a world where courtroom drama has crossed the line into entertainment, Patricia Prezioso has made a career of not playing that game.

"Courtrooms weren't designed to be theaters," she said last week. "There is only one audience I'm concerned with. The 12 people in the jury box aren't watching me for entertainment, they're watching me to help them make a serious decision."

And she is serious. As serious as the charges she prosecuted in the McGuire case.

"I learned working in Morgenthau's office to approach this job as meticulous and professional as possible," she said, referring to Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. "It's important for a jury to see me as a credible public servant. Work as a prosecutor is the most important job in government. I don't want to make it sound corny, but I truly believe justice must be served."

Prezioso made it clear she didn't begrudge the defense team the attention it received and, in fact, thinks aiming the term "celebrity lawyer" at Tacopina was unfair.

"Joe is an excellent attorney," she said. "He was able to turn some of our evidence and witnesses to his advantage. I learned some things watching him."

She also realized Tacopina's personality -- the humor, flair, charm and, when he needed it, the bare-knuckled chivalry he showed in defending his client -- was not something she could, or would, compete with.

"That's not my fight to be in . . . My fight is to get justice done," she said. "I need to make sure the jury hears the witnesses and the evidence. My job is not to create other noise."

And so yesterday, the jury told her they heard the evidence loud and clear.

"That summation was outstanding," said assistant prosecutor Chris Romanyshyn after the verdict. "She brought in all the small pieces of evidence and made a compelling case. She outlined it beautifully."

When the verdict came in, Prezioso was finally pushed to center stage. At a news conference at the Middlesex County Prosecutor's Office, she was publicly congratulated by her bosses, Attorney General Stuart Rabner and Criminal Justice chief Gregory Paw, and was publicly thanked by Cindy Ligosh, Bill McGuire's sister, on behalf of the McGuire family.

When that was over, Patti Prezioso was grabbed by a television producer and led out into the sun toward the Court TV tent, reluctantly ready for her close-up.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerarchives/20...d_spotlig.html
__________________

Thank you for posting this. It recalled the case very well. I forgot about the prescription forged days before the murder by MM. And the gun bought under a fake address by MM. If she did not do it, she is so unlucky that her husband turned up murdered by the same type of gun she secretly purchased right before his death. And didnt she not report him missing but his sister Cindy reported it to the police? That gave her time to clean up the evidence. Once I saw all the evidence, I had no doubt she was guilty.

[annalyzer]

I'd forgotten about the internet searches.

excerpt~

Despite a lack of physical evidence at the apartment, Internet searches on Melanie's computer were found for "how to commit a murder" and "undetectable poisons" in the weeks before the murder. Melanie also purchased a .38 caliber gun at a gun shop in Pennsylvania just two days before McGuire disappeared. The gun she bought is consistent with the one that killed McGuire, but has never been found.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Story?id=3301941&page=2

[Great Dane]

Thank you for posting this. It recalled the case very well. I forgot about the prescription forged days before the murder by MM. And the gun bought under a fake address by MM. If she did not do it, she is so unlucky that her husband turned up murdered by the same type of gun she secretly purchased right before his death. And didnt she not report him missing but his sister Cindy reported it to the police? That gave her time to clean up the evidence. Once I saw all the evidence, I had no doubt she was guilty.

It wasn't a fake address it was the SAME address MM and WM used to get less expensive car insurance, a relative in PA....MM and CL both hesitated to contact the police...does anyone recall if anyone had conatcted the police before Sue Rice saw him on television??????:confused:

[Great Dane]

I'd forgotten about the internet searches.

excerpt~

Despite a lack of physical evidence at the apartment, Internet searches on Melanie's computer were found for "how to commit a murder" and "undetectable poisons" in the weeks before the murder. Melanie also purchased a .38 caliber gun at a gun shop in Pennsylvania just two days before McGuire disappeared. The gun she bought is consistent with the one that killed McGuire, but has never been found.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Story?id=3301941&page=2

Right a .38, one of the most popular guns....I recall people saying MM liked murder mysteries....perhaps she was googling that for another purpose...I know after being on this web site and reading some of the stuff I read, I google a lot of things that one might deam suspicious....if you recall the searches were also mixed in with real estate searches, on line gambling, banking....

I'm not saying she didn't do it, I'm saying that for almost every single piece of evidence, their are legitamate question marks to go with them....

[annalyzer]

excerpt ~

But there was one clue that caused investigators to question the grieving widow: the blanket found wrapped around Bill's torso was the very same kind of blanket used at the fertility clinic where Melanie worked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/48hours/main3300536_page2.shtml

[Great Dane]

excerpt ~

But there was one clue that caused investigators to question the grieving widow: the blanket found wrapped around Bill's torso was the very same kind of blanket used at the fertility clinic where Melanie worked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/48hours/main3300536_page2.shtml

My mother has never worked in a hospital a day in her life. If I were to go to my mother's house right now, I bet you I could find at least three blankets from the hospital...(not that I am proud of thet, but it's true). Do you have any idea a. how many blankets are stolen daily from the hospital or b. whether or not WM had any in his possession at the time of his murder? I don't think it's so impossible to believe that he could have had one in the car for an unplanned picnic, or perhaps for the kids if they were cold....

[annalyzer]

Oh my, I had forgotten about the letters!

excerpt~

Oct. 26, 2006: A second indictment is handed up, accusing Melanie McGuire of writing a series of letters aimed at getting police off her trail during the homicide investigation. The letters suggest she was being framed.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerarchives/2007/07/mcguire_timeline.html

[4Life]

It wasn't a fake address it was the SAME address MM and WM used to get less expensive car insurance, a relative in PA....MM and CL both hesitated to contact the police...does anyone recall if anyone had conatcted the police before Sue Rice saw him on television??????:confused:Technically is was a "fake" address because MM never lived at her Aunts home in PA, MM used that address to obtain car insurance illegally and a gun illegally. In on the of taped phone calls, her cousin asks her about the gun because the police are questioning the Aunt who did not know MM used her address to get a gun

[Great Dane]

Oh my, I had forgotten about the letters!

excerpt~

Oct. 26, 2006: A second indictment is handed up, accusing Melanie McGuire of writing a series of letters aimed at getting police off her trail during the homicide investigation. The letters suggest she was being framed.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerarchives/2007/07/mcguire_timeline.html

Ah, the letters...never proven to have been written by MM, no trace of DNA on the envelope, no trace of the compouter where they had been printed out of/written on, no proof whatsoever that they were connected to her at all....even the Amex card that was purchased, the grainy film...never proven to have been her....I'm glad you brought that up!

[annalyzer]

Jul 19, 2007 7:55 pm US/Eastern

N.J. Suitcase Slayer Receives Life In Prison
Melanie McGuire Drugged, Shot, Dismembered & Dumped Husband


A woman convicted of drugging and shooting her husband, cutting up his remains and throwing luggage stuffed with his body parts into the Chesapeake Bay was sentenced to life in prison Thursday.

Melanie McGuire, 34, was convicted in April of killing her husband William McGuire, 39, whose body washed up in May 2004 in three Kenneth Cole suitcases.

Prosecutor Patricia Prezioso pushed for life in prison because of the gruesome nature of the crime and McGuire's lack of remorse.

In handing down the sentence Judge Frederick DeVesa called the crime "depraved" as McGuire, sitting in a green shirt with her hands handcuffed in front of her, sat quietly and cried.

"The depravity of this murder simply shocks the conscience of this court," DeVesa said.

Prior to the sentencing, William McGuire's sister Cindy Ligosh said she hoped the decision would allow her and her family to move on with their lives.

"It won't mean that I won't stop thinking about my brother," Ligosh said.

"The family and friends of William McGuire will suffer his loss for the rest of our days," Laura Ligosh, McGuire's niece, said. "All we can ask is that you take her freedom like she took our Billy."

Prosecutors said McGuire wanted her husband out of the way to start a new life with her lover, her boss at a Morristown fertility clinic. They described a woman who carefully planned her husband's murder, searching the Internet for information about buying a gun and untraceable poisons.

The defense argued that William had abused his wife and she had intending to leave him. Her attorneys questioned how the petite McGuire could have had the strength to commit the crimes. They also pointed out the lack of physical evidence at the crime scene, the couple's Woodbridge apartment.

She'll serve life in prison and will only be eligible for parole after 63 years.

"The record in this case reveals that she has been a ruthless, calculating individual," DeVesa said.

Melanie McGuire did not take the stand in her own defense, but she steadfastly maintained her innocence.

Below is a timeline of events relating to the disappearance and the trial.

2004
April 26: Melanie McGuire purchases a gun in Pennsylvania.
April 27: Last day William McGuire reports to work at New Jersey Institute of Technology in Newark.
April 28: William and Melanie McGuire close on a $500,000 house in Warren County.

April 29: Melanie McGuire reports the couple has a fight, and he leaves their Woodbridge apartment about 2:30 A.M.

April 30: McGuire's car is parked in a lot behind a motel on Atlantic City's casino strip. Grainy security tape footage shows a person getting out of the vehicle and walking away.

May 5: First suitcase containing body parts is found by fisherman on island near Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel.

May 11: Second suitcase containing body parts spotted on shore of Fisherman's Island, on Virginia's Eastern Shore.

May 16: Boater finds third suitcase floating in waters off a second island in the bay.

May 17: McGuire, due back at work after a two-week vacation, doesn't show up. His wife calls to ask if the office has heard from her husband.

May 21: Virginia Beach Police release sketch of murder victim found in suitcases.

May 25: Melanie McGuire files for divorce.

May 28: McGuire phones her husband's workplace, tells his boss that she's spoken with police and McGuire is dead.

September: The New Jersey Attorney General's Office takes up the murder investigation after Virginia Beach detectives determine that McGuire likely was killed in New Jersey.

2005
June 2: Melanie McGuire is arrested and charged with first-degree murder in her husband's death.
June 7: McGuire is released on $750,000 bail.

Oct. 12: McGuire indicted on charges of murder, desecration of a corpse, perjury and a weapons violation. She pleads not guilty.

2006
Oct. 31: Melanie McGuire is indicted on additional counts after authorities say she wrote anonymous letters to throw detectives off her trail. Additional charges include hindering prosecution, tampering with evidence and filing false reports. She pleads not guilty and remains free after posting additional bail, for a total of $2.1 million.

2007
March 5: McGuire's murder trial begins in state Superior Court in New Brunswick.
March 21: Melanie McGuire's former lover, Bradley Miller, testifies the couple were intending to leave their respective spouses and start a life together.
April 16: Defense presents closing arguments.

April 17: Prosecution presents closing arguments.

April 18: Jury begins deliberations.

April 23: McGuire convicted of murder, desecration of a corpse, perjury and a weapons offense. She is acquitted on the four remaining counts: two counts of hindering prosecution, falsifying evidence, and drug possession.

June 26: In a television interview, taped before her conviction, McGuire professes her innocence.
July 19: McGuire is sentenced to life in prison.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/hacking.murder.homicide.2.245823.html

[Great Dane]

Technically is was a "fake" address because MM never lived at her Aunts home in PA, MM used that address to obtain car insurance illegally and a gun illegally. In on the of taped phone calls, her cousin asks her about the gun because the police are questioning the Aunt who did not know MM used her address to get a gun

Iit's an actual address, just not her actual address as opposed to a fake address which would be 143 Juniper Lane, or some other mythical made up address that didn't exist....

Of course her cousin asks her baout the gun, did you think she was going to tell everyone that she went and purchased a gun for her husband, a former felon....that would have been illegal! She could have lost her career on just the mere purchase of the gun, for Bill....Gee, I'm so "shocked" that she lied about buying the gun, or that she didn't run to the police right away to tell them, hey officer I just want you to know....I bought a gun, two days before my husband went missing......yeah, I bought it for him, because he's a felon and he couldn't buy it for himself....because I was having an affair with my boss and I wanted to appease him....and now he ended up dead....and I'm telling you the truth now, because I don't want you to think it was me.....I'm sure if she told that story to the police, they would have believed her.....:sneaky:

[Great Dane]

Annalyzer:

April 23: McGuire convicted of murder, desecration of a corpse, perjury and a weapons offense. She is acquitted on the four remaining counts: two counts of hindering prosecution, falsifying evidence, and drug possession.

She was not convicted for writing the letters

[4Life]

Iit's an actual address, just not her actual address as opposed to a fake address which would be 143 Juniper Lane, or some other mythical made up address that didn't exist....

Of course her cousin asks her baout the gun, did you think she was going to tell everyone that she went and purchased a gun for her husband, a former felon....that would have been illegal! She could have lost her career on just the mere purchase of the gun, for Bill....Gee, I'm so "shocked" that she lied about buying the gun, or that she didn't run to the police right away to tell them, hey officer I just want you to know....I bought a gun, two days before my husband went missing......yeah, I bought it for him, because he's a felon and he couldn't buy it for himself....because I was having an affair with my boss and I wanted to appease him....and now he ended up dead....and I'm telling you the truth now, because I don't want you to think it was me.....I'm sure if she told that story to the police, they would have believed her.....:sneaky:Before she bought the gun, she was telling people she was scared of Wm, so why buy him a gun? Would any wife buy their husband a gun if they were afraid of him?
She still bought the gun illegally, she bought it in PA, she resides in NJ and took the gun over state lines, which is illegal and a felony I believe.
Nice niece to have, use your Aunts address to buy a gun illegally and have the PA police all over her house for something she knew nothing about because her niece did it

[Great Dane]

Quote: Prosecutors said McGuire wanted her husband out of the way to start a new life with her lover, her boss at a Morristown fertility clinic.

According to both MM and BM, they were not planning to do any such thing. They were both committed to their families (if not their partners). BM never stated at any point during the trial or afterward that he and MM were planning to leave their spouses to get married etc. If anything, the one time he suggested something along those lines as prompted by LE, she was like...where is this coming from????

[4Life]

Quote: Prosecutors said McGuire wanted her husband out of the way to start a new life with her lover, her boss at a Morristown fertility clinic.

According to both MM and BM, they were not planning to do any such thing. They were both committed to their families (if not their partners). BM never stated at any point during the trial or afterward that he and MM were planning to leave their spouses to get married etc. If anything, the one time he suggested something along those lines as prompted by LE, she was like...where is this coming from????

Do you have a link to your quote?
This is so old, but I thought he admitted on the stand that they did plan on getting together and having a family

TIA

[Great Dane]

Before she bought the gun, she was telling people she was scared of Wm, so why buy him a gun? Would any wife buy their husband a gun if they were afraid of him?
She still bought the gun illegally, she bought it in PA, she resides in NJ and took the gun over state lines.
Nice niece to have, use your Aunts address to buy a gun illegally and have the PA police all over her house for something she knew nothing about because her niece did it

She was telling Finn about the gun, in case the authorities found out later that she purchased the gun with a felon living in the house. I think she thought by having Finn think she was buying it for "herself", God forbid it ever did come up that the gun had been bought, at least she would have someone that could say she purchased it for herself....as opposed to buying it for Bill....and she didn't over e-mail, perhaps so at a later point in time, it would have been documented....

So, using the address for cheaper insurance was okay...but, not for the purchase of a gun that you never thought was going to be used???? What would be the harm in using that address if the gun was never used, if Bill was alive today...would anyone be the wiser????

[4Life]

She was telling Finn about the gun, in case the authorities found out later that she purchased the gun with a felon living in the house. I think she thought by having Finn think she was buying it for "herself", God forbid it ever did come up that the gun had been bought, at least she would have someone that could say she purchased it for herself....as opposed to buying it for Bill....and she didn't over e-mail, perhaps so at a later point in time, it would have been documented....

So, using the address for cheaper insurance was okay...but, not for the purchase of a gun that you never thought was going to be used???? What would be the harm in using that address if the gun was never used, if Bill was alive today...would anyone be the wiser????

I never said it was ok to use the address for insurance fraud, I have always stated that was illegal and wrong to do. I am sure she Ok'd that with her Aunt first.

I still don't believe she bought the gun for WM, she was telling people she feared WM. Again what wife and mother of 2 babies is going to run out buy a gun illegally for a husband that she is in fear of?

[annalyzer]

Before she bought the gun, she was telling people she was scared of Wm, so why buy him a gun? Would any wife buy their husband a gun if they were afraid of him?


She also took out a restraining order on him and then went and moved his car to "spite him". :unsure:

[4Life]

Thank you for the debate, time to run errands before dinner.

[4Life]

She also took out a restraining order on him and then went and moved his car to "spite him". :unsure: I forgot about that, thanks.
Yeah that made a lot of sense didn't it?

[BigDude]

No he said it was his signiture but looked like MMs handwriting

4Life:

You are partially right in your answer. Miller, under cross-examination by Tacopina, was shown his signature by MM and said that was her signature of his name on one document that had been put up on a board for examination. He said he had authorized her to sign his name to prescriptions. But maybe you missed this, but when the prescription for Tiffany Bain was put up for exam, Miller was asked if that were MM's signature for him (Miller), Miller said it was not. Tacopina then said that he was talking about the CH prescription and Miller said no it was not her writing of his signature. Hope that clears it up for you.
BigD

[Great Dane]

I never said it was ok to use the address for insurance fraud, I have always stated that was illegal and wrong to do. I am sure she Ok'd that with her Aunt first.

I still don't believe she bought the gun for WM, she was telling people she feared WM. Again what wife and mother of 2 babies is going to run out buy a gun illegally for a husband that she is in fear of?

But she wasn't afraid of him....her story to Finn was a fake...intended to protect her if her buying a gun for WM ever came to surface...she was never afriad of him IMO....the TRO hearing was set up to document that he left her....I don't think she had "planned" on them asking her baout the gun, quite honestly that may have been the very minute that she even "thought" about the gun and the possibility that he may have left with it....If her intent was to lie, why stop at he tried to put a dryer sheet in my mouth? Why not scratch herself or bang her face???

The moving of the car, while foolish may have been her wanting to find out what he was up to, who he was with, maybe despite her affair with Brad, she still had that I don't want you but I don;'t want you to be with anyone else attitude that people in unhealthy relationships often have....again, I don't think she was ever "afraid" of WM....if she were, Brad would have known that.....but, she didn't tell Brad, she told Finn....a meaningless friend, an insignificant person....

[4Life]

4Life:

You are partially right in your answer. Miller, under cross-examination by Tacopina, was shown his signature by MM and said that was her signature of his name on one document that had been put up on a board for examination. He said he had authorized her to sign his name to prescriptions. But maybe you missed this, but when the prescription for Tiffany Bain was put up for exam, Miller was asked if that were MM's signature for him (Miller), Miller said it was not. Tacopina then said that he was talking about the CH prescription and Miller said no it was not her writing of his signature. Hope that clears it up for you.
BigD

Thank you, I did miss trhat part or forgot about, like I said it has been 2 years.
So, someone (MM in MO) had access to the RMA patient Bains pvt information to use on that prescription.

Ok, really need to do errands, I am so far behind

[BigDude]

The blanket that was with the victim was not the same as what was at RMA. The company that provided the blankets said he delivered to over 100 places in NJ. One of the blankets was from Cambodia and I think the other one was from the Phillipines. They also had different color on them. But most signifcantly, I find that the discovery of animal hair on the blanket was glossed over by Lesniak when questioned on the stand. He made it sound insignificant that there was animal hair although MM had no pet. He said that there was no DNA test for animal hair which I thought was not correct. I hope this clears up the confusion.
Big D

[4Life]

But she wasn't afraid of him....her story to Finn was a fake...intended to protect her if her buying a gun for WM ever came to surface...she was never afriad of him IMO....the TRO hearing was set up to document that he left her....I don't think she had "planned" on them asking her baout the gun, quite honestly that may have been the very minute that she even "thought" about the gun and the possibility that he may have left with it....If her intent was to lie, why stop at he tried to put a dryer sheet in my mouth? Why not scratch herself or bang her face???

The moving of the car, while foolish may have been her wanting to find out what he was up to, who he was with, maybe despite her affair with Brad, she still had that I don't want you but I don;'t want you to be with anyone else attitude that people in unhealthy relationships often have....again, I don't think she was ever "afraid" of WM....if she were, Brad would have known that.....but, she didn't tell Brad, she told Finn....a meaningless friend, an insignificant person.... So why lie to the TRO Judge and say there are no weapons in the home? If she had nothing to hid, why lie at all?

Why did she have different stories about the gun?

Why did she have different stories about the AC trips?

If she was tired (1st story) and did not feel like driving her car back to Woodbridge, why not get a room at one of the many hotels/motels down there? Alot cheaper instead of that $400+ so called cab rides

Why not take the cab to her parents home who are 20 mins away from AC instead of spending over 400.00 to go from AC to Woodbridge and Back to AC?

Again, why not call her parents or take a cab ride to her parents house from AC if she couldn't find her car?(2nd story she told)

Why go back to AC 2 more times after the 1st time?

[4Life]

The blanket that was with the victim was not the same as what was at RMA. The company that provided the blankets said he delivered to over 100 places in NJ. One of the blankets was from Cambodia and I think the other one was from the Phillipines. They also had different color on them. But most signifcantly, I find that the discovery of animal hair on the blanket was glossed over by Lesniak when questioned on the stand. He made it sound insignificant that there was animal hair although MM had no pet. He said that there was no DNA test for animal hair which I thought was not correct. I hope this clears up the confusion.
Big D

But it was said on the stand that they could have had those blankets at one, they always don't get the same blankets.

Animal hair has me stumped because the Capps and MMs brother both had dogs. Brother had one before the murder and still does and the Capps had one before the murder. Both dogs have been in both homes

[Great Dane]

So why lie to the TRO Judge and say there are no weapons in the home? If she had nothing to hid, why lie at all?

Why did she have different stories about the gun?

Why did she have different stories about the AC trips?

If she was tired (1st story) and did not feel like driving her car back to Woodbridge, why not get a room at one of the many hotels/motels down there? Alot cheaper instead of that $400+ so called cab rides

Why not take the cab to her parents home who are 20 mins away from AC instead of spending over 400.00 to go from AC to Woodbridge and Back to AC?

Again, why not call her parents or take a cab ride to her parents house from AC if she couldn't find her car?(2nd story she told)

Why go back to AC 2 more times after the 1st time?

I have explained why she would lie about the gun. In regards to the NJ trips, I would lie as well....she was being considered for murder charges, anyone in that car with her would have been considered an accomplice...why take anyone down this ride with you? If you are innocent and you know you didn't do it....why add a friend or family member to the scenario, so they have legal fees and they get pressured by the police????

If you ask anyone, anyone at all....man shows up dead, cut and shoved into his 3 suitcases....who do ya think did it....9 out of ten will most likely say the wife without hesitation, try it...ask a few people that are unfamiliar with the case....add a gun purchase and an affair to the mix....and you have the MM trial...the police focused on her the entire time, her , her parents, her lover, her friends.....and I get "why"....but, did they pursue any additional venues? I'm not even saying the mob....but anyone else? Did they ever look into anyone else?

The case sat idle for almost a year, a lot of evidence was I'm sure missed because of their lacidaisicalness....the case was in every paper, the news.....NJ LE "needed" soemone to go down for this case....and I'm not saying anyone was crooked....but, I am going to say that CH showed up right in the nick of time....odd how I have to sign for every script I pick up, I even need identification to get Mucinex from behind the counter....but, you can pick up an undetectable poisin without any proof????? :closedeyes:

[Great Dane]

But it was said on the stand that they could have had those blankets at one, they always don't get the same blankets.

Animal hair has me stumped because the Capps and MMs brother both had dogs. Brother had one before the murder and still does and the Capps had one before the murder. Both dogs have been in both homes

I believe every place was checked for dog hair/animals etc., also the long hair, the chip of red polish.....???? They checked every bottle of MM and LC's polish, didn't match, even went to the nail salons to check the color....

The tape had razor stubble, which was supposed to have been proof that it was in the bathroom...but, if your razor has ever opened in your luggage....the hair could have been from there as well....not to mention WM went for a hair cut that every same day as the closing, he had a very short cut, another possibility....and "fi" someone was trying to frame MM, or you or me....what's to say I couldn't have went in your bathroom closed the door and poured your razor stubble into a zip loc bag...who would ever notice????

My bathroom also smells like bleach everytime I clean it....maybe Lori the nurse would think my bathroom smells like a mourge too....lol

[Jupiter]

She also took out a restraining order on him and then went and moved his car to "spite him". :unsure:

Don’t forget about her driving down to A.C. and taking a cab back up to Woodbridge because she forgot where she parked her car, then took a cab back to A. C.

[Topaz]

The Most Diabolical Framer-Upper EVER!

Had to have stalked MM for a long time. Knowing she was having that long term affair (which we are told even the husband didn't know about or Brad's wife) Had to have alot of time on their hands to do all this.

Somehow got into RMA's computer files and chose a patient to forge the Chloral Hydrate for on the very day of the home closing. Filled the RX minutes after MM dropped off the boys.

Sneaked into MM's home and planted all those computer searches.

Knew MM bought a gun 2 days previously and those particular bullets used for target practice.

Arranged to "steal" the luggage and garbage bags to put WM into and plant the blanket.

Knew MM wouldn't file a missing person's report.

Knew MM would move WM's car.

Knew MM would be on that Bridge during the time frame when the suitcases were dumped.

Knew MM would flub up the EZpass trips.

Had all WM's personal property...keys and wedding ring to send to the prosecution pretending to be a "mobster" worried about MM's future.

YADA YADA YADA.... not reasonable.

If MM was such a crime buff, she would have KNOWN that the wife/spouse would be a suspect...so why lie and make herself look MORE guilty?

There is NO common sense to the continued theories that MM is innocent. She is just very very guilty...and her behaviors were red flags in this regard in addition to the evidence.

And there are lots more facts, that we all know....MM used to try and deflect suspicion from herself. In the end she just did herself in. End of story.

[RayStar]

I used to believe that the case was not proven BARD, but that MM was somehow guilty, possibly as an accomplice to the crime. Now I think it is very possible that she is innocent. The fact that Baker Bots took her appeal pro-bono says something about the case. I am very curious to find our what is in the appeal. This case has so much mystery and so many unanswered questions left.
Thank you Len. You have posted what I was afraid to post. In my mind Melanine should be free now. I did not like the way Ms. DA swayed the jury with as lack of evidence. I would want more proof of guilt before convicting someone if I were a juror. I feel better now.

Annalyzer I love your posts on this thread.

[Jupiter]

Her behavior is that of a sociopath.

[Len]

Somehow got into RMA's computer files and chose a patient to forge the Chloral Hydrate for on the very day of the home closing.


What did the chloral hydrate have to do with the whole case? There is no proof that it was used in any way in the murder. None. Also, if it is true that it was left in that car in the original bottle, then it makes absolutely no sense that MM left it there deliberately.

The whole scenario presented by the prosecution about the potential use of CH in the murder makes no sense IMO. Also, lets not forget that the blood of the victim was tested in NJ (from what I recall) and was negative. When something is tested negative, it is interpreted as negative. In this case, various negatives were interpreted as "potential positives that could not be detected any longer" (i.e. CH and lack of DNA or blood in the TH").

Many of the pieces of evidence that you listed were very weak and unreliable IMO.

[Topaz]

It also makes no sense that the MOB did it.

There was no financial evidence introduced by the defense that
chronic gambling was an issue. In fact we learn after the fact that MM herself was a sharp player herself!

In the end, there was no defense beside some character testimony.

In the end, the jury relies on its common sense, and weighs each piece of evidence and decides. That is what they are there for. They can totally disbelieve witnesses, or anything if they choose. They can nullify a whole trial, as in OJ.

Obviously in this trial the jury chose to follow the time line, testimony, drug usage and forgery of MM for her Xanax, gun purchase, lies to get the TRO, consciousness of guilt behaviors after the body surfaced,
obsessively and unnaturally cleaned rental apartment.

Where the chloral hydrate comes in? The most likely scenario is that it was used for something important. The timing of the searches and the purchase suggest that. I always thought it "might" be for the kids...since chloral hydrate is used to sedate children prior to procedures. But that was a long shot IMO. The small amount in the car? It was not from the original bottle which was never recovered.
The bottle and its bag with receipt are gone. Perhaps it was planted by MM as a red herring. If the plan for WM was to never surface, finding something suspicious in his car might have sent investigators off on a tangent AWAY from HER. A warrant for the computer can only be given with probable cause, and if no body turns up, no probable cause to find her activities on same.

This is a very complex case...everything highly inter-related. I think MM didn't expect for WM's body to surface so quickly. She was caught off guard without a "plan"...so she lied, and tried to deflect suspicion off herself. She never thought her over-clean house would imply her... but it did...since NO ONE's DNA was found there! Who does this when moving...? That alone is very strange.

Everything comes back to HER. No MOB hit. No fiendish person framing her up, no other evidence to anyone else.

I will be watching however, to see what this "new evidence" is being presented in the appeal request. Given the track record so far, I am not expecting much however.

[Len]

Topaz,
Regarding how the CH that was found in the car, I have read contradicting stories. In most cases it was reported as a bottle with a "colored liquid" or something like that, but (if I recall correctly) I have seen it also mentioned as the original vial. Anyway, the fact remains that the prosecution's scenario does not stand without the CH. But there was no CH or its metabolites found in the victim's blood when tested.

Now, one could speculate as you did that CH was used for other reasons (i.e. sedate children), but there is no evidence for that either.

I agree with you that there was nothing to suggest that the mob killed him. But the mob was not on trial for that murder, MM was. The fact that the prosecution had to assemble such a far-fetched hypothetical scenario for the murder that is not supported by the evidence (no CH in blood, no DNA or blood in the TH, no crime scene, no noise from dismembering, no noise from gunshots, no bullet damage in the TH, etc. etc.) is IMO a reflection of the lack of strong evidence against MM (with the exception of the purchase of the gun that is very strong CE). IMO the prosecution was forced to propose such a highly unlikely scenario, because they could not come up with an alternative one. Because based on the timeline of events, MM could not have been the physical killer otherwise.

The interesting thing is that, reading posts here, many who believe that MM committed the crime, do not believe the murder happened in the TH. The prosecution somehow implied that there could have been an accomplice to cover that as well. But if there was an accomplice among the known people in that story, that person would have been caught and prosecuted by now. Even if it was a murder for hire scenario, and MM had hired someone unknown to kill WM, there would have been some evidence after such a detailed and thorough investigation.

MM looked very guilty at the end because the focus was on her and every move she made was explained as someone trying to cover up a crime. But there are other explanations as well. IMO there is a real possibility that she did not do it.

[Topaz]

Len,

When I started watching this trial, it was on during the Anna Nicole Smith's death coverage. I was interested in the drug use and Daniel's death, as it relates to accidents with prescription drugs. CourtTV would cut to MM's trial during this time. (at that time I also was working full time ) In the beginning I was open to MM's innocence, like I am to all trials. But as it progressed, it changed for me rapidly.
Even at the verdict, I had a smidge (and I mean smidge) of doubt.
Her TV appearances cleared that away for me rapidly, so now I am sure she did it.

No one at this time knows HOW she did it, but common sense and the circumstances do point to her using the chloral hydrate somehow. She did search "undetectable poisons" so she chose a drug that is rapidly removed from the body in minutes. Normal forensic screens do not look for every poison in a body with cause of death as gun shot. The little "vial" of Ch was not labeled, in the car. They didn't know what it was until finding the RX information and Google search on MM's computer later for Walgreen's. MM also wasted no time in cremating WM's remains, just in case.

There will always be doubters. There are people walking around today who think OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman.

[Len]

No one at this time knows HOW she did it, but common sense and the circumstances do point to her using the chloral hydrate somehow. She did search "undetectable poisons" so she chose a drug that is rapidly removed from the body in minutes. Normal forensic screens do not look for every poison in a body with cause of death as gun shot. The little "vial" of Ch was not labeled, in the car. They didn't know what it was until finding the RX information and Google search on MM's computer later for Walgreen's. MM also wasted no time in cremating WM's remains, just in case.

There will always be doubters. There are people walking around today who think OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman.

Topaz,
That's the whole point in this case. One assumes that CH was used because of "common sense" and because there was a search for "undetectable poisons". One assumes that MM is the murderer because of "common sense" (she bought a gun). But common sense alone should not be enough to convict someone. The defense had presented evidence that those searches were done in close time-proximity to when a password-protected account of the victim was on. Based on this, one can not say with confidence who did the searches. And what makes you think that CH is an "undetectable poison" anyway? It is not. It is very detectable (via its metabolites) and someone who did internet searches could easily find that out. Normal forensic screens do not look for "every poison", but in this case CH was looked in the second screen in NJ. And it was negative.

My point is that there are so many holes and so many discrepancies in this case, that there is reasonable doubt. Unless one pre-assumes based on "common sense" that MM had to be the killer because she bought the gun.

As for OJ's guilt, what can I say. You are right there are still some who think that OJ did not commit the murders (but of course he did). The same way that there are some who still believe that Cynthia Sommer is guilty of murder (although a crime was never committed and she is now free).

[Great Dane]

I agree with Len 150%....:thumbsup:

[Topaz]

I do not think it is plausible or reasonable to expect SO MANY issues
surrounding MM to be "coincidence".

One coincidence or maybe even 2 but not the huge amount surrounding the facts of this case. That is how circumstantial evidence is used...as a total assemblage of facts leading to a conclusion.

Dissecting minutely every bit of evidence as possibly pointing elsewhere is not productive. You could speculate on everything that way and get nowhere. Cynthia Sommer's trial was totally different from MM's. It was obvious that she was innocent. There wasn't even believable evidence of arsenic poisoning. The chain of custody of Todd's specimens was broken some 16 or more times. The lab used was faulty.

The only circumstantial evidence was Cindy buying cigarettes on the way to the hospital, and her boob job and parties several months after Todd's death. That was IT.

So you cannot compare these two cases, that way IMO.

Try and catch this trial on line:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/19/48hours/main955496.shtml

The elements parallel MM in a very startling way. We have a murder, we have cleaning it up using special solvents, we have dumping and desecration of a corpse(fire in this case), we have dumping the car somewhere else, we have grainy video of Tracy coming out of a store, victim shot with a gun, sexual overtones,
etc etc. And she was convicted too. It all added up to HER. Same way.
There is a 48hrs special on it, which is very interesting.

[Great Dane]

The Most Diabolical Framer-Upper EVER!

Had to have stalked MM for a long time. Knowing she was having that long term affair (which we are told even the husband didn't know about or Brad's wife) Had to have alot of time on their hands to do all this.

Somehow got into RMA's computer files and chose a patient to forge the Chloral Hydrate for on the very day of the home closing. Filled the RX minutes after MM dropped off the boys.

Sneaked into MM's home and planted all those computer searches.

Knew MM bought a gun 2 days previously and those particular bullets used for target practice.

Arranged to "steal" the luggage and garbage bags to put WM into and plant the blanket.

Knew MM wouldn't file a missing person's report.

Knew MM would move WM's car.

Knew MM would be on that Bridge during the time frame when the suitcases were dumped.

Knew MM would flub up the EZpass trips.

Had all WM's personal property...keys and wedding ring to send to the prosecution pretending to be a "mobster" worried about MM's future.

YADA YADA YADA.... not reasonable.

If MM was such a crime buff, she would have KNOWN that the wife/spouse would be a suspect...so why lie and make herself look MORE guilty?

There is NO common sense to the continued theories that MM is innocent. She is just very very guilty...and her behaviors were red flags in this regard in addition to the evidence.

And there are lots more facts, that we all know....MM used to try and deflect suspicion from herself. In the end she just did herself in. End of story.

According to the nurses at RMA, the affair was pretty apparent....a fellow nurse at RMA would have complete access to everyones files, a script pad....may live in the same area, be familiar with MM's schedule, may be on a similar schedule herself....

MM was never proven to have written the "mob" letter, so I'm not going to rediscuss that point....

Sometimes the truth isn't pretty, if the wife is "ALWAYS" a suspect....are you saying she was guilty before they started looking for evidence? Because I think that the police were treating her as if she were, and the media, and WM's family/friends....because she's a crime buff and she knows how police antagonize/intimidate witnesses, perhaps she was trying to prevent anyone from being bullied into giving testimony? Perhaps she was trying to make the police do their job, instead of scaring people like Finn and Brad....they were 150% innocent, yet Brad and Finn were OBVIOUSLY frightened by the police, their threats....otherwise why participate with them, phone taps etc.....they were trying to save themselves, signing the proffer....and they were innocent as well....but, I'm sure the police warned them, if you don't help us you will be sitting in a cage right next to your friend, your lover etc.....

If having an affair automatically makes you a murderer, or capable of being a murderer, or more likely to have a motive.....than I think a lot more of us are guilty, or have been guilty in our lifetime than we'd care to admit....or is that just common sense? yadda yadda yadda....

[Len]

According to the nurses at RMA, the affair was pretty apparent....a fellow nurse at RMA would have complete access to everyones files, a script pad....may live in the same area, be familiar with MM's schedule, may be on a similar schedule herself....



Actually, that's an excellent point. I am wondering if that was ever considered during the investigation. It could have been simply someone else working in that clinic who faked that script and took and used the CH, totally unrelated to the crime. Such a possibility has some validity as the CH was apparently not used in the crime (based on the negative blood test).

Of course, CH was found in the car of the victim, but it never made sense why would MM leave it there if she used it in the crime. Again, many things dont make sense in this case.

[annalyzer]

Actually, that's an excellent point. I am wondering if that was ever considered during the investigation. It could have been simply someone else working in that clinic who faked that script and took and used the CH, totally unrelated to the crime. Such a possibility has some validity as the CH was apparently not used in the crime (based on the negative blood test).

Of course, CH was found in the car of the victim, but it never made sense why would MM leave it there if she used it in the crime. Again, many things dont make sense in this case.


Oh my lord, some of you have an excuse for everything. :rolleyes:

Bill's body was too decomposed to show results IIRC. So there just happens to be the drug in the car and a prescription was forged? lol

Most murderers make mistakes and Melanie was no different.

Melanie is a cold calculating manipulative lying *itch. Poor Bill.

imo

[annalyzer]

If having an affair automatically makes you a murderer, or capable of being a murderer, or more likely to have a motive.....than I think a lot more of us are guilty, or have been guilty in our lifetime than we'd care to admit....or is that just common sense? yadda yadda yadda....


(bolding mine) Affairs are a motive in many many spousal murders. It's a fact. Yes many people have affairs but their spouses don't end up murdered either. Guilty of an affair but not guilty of offing your spouse because of an affair.

[Great Dane]

Oh my lord, some of you have an excuse for everything. :rolleyes:

Bill's body was too decomposed to show results IIRC. So there just happens to be the drug in the car and a prescription was forged? lol

Most murderers make mistakes and Melanie was no different.

Melanie is a cold calculating manipulative lying *itch. Poor Bill.

imo

Can you explain to me, if you believe she drugged him in the TH, why that vile would have ever needed to be in the car?????

[Great Dane]

(bolding mine) Affairs are a motive in many many spousal murders. It's a fact. Yes many people have affairs but their spouses don't end up murdered either. Guilty of an affair but not guilty of offing your spouse because of an affair.

But she was already having the affair for several years at that point, Brad even testified to the fact that thgey had no intentions of leaving their spouses....while I get that love can be a reason for murder, she would have had nothing to gain by murdering WM....what would she gain, a big house and a mortgage she couldn't afford on her own?

[BigDude]

There was never a real motive presented that held much weight IMO. It was a very remote plan that MM and BM had talked about regarding any future plans for marriage. Didn't MM say to BM on the phone, why was he bringing up marriage?

The CH played no part in this murder as far a I am convinced. The story told by the prosecutor made no sense and could not be backed up by any convincing evidence, IMO.
Big D

[Len]

Cynthia Sommer's trial was totally different from MM's. It was obvious that she was innocent. There wasn't even believable evidence of arsenic poisoning.


That is what you (and I) thought then, but not what the prosecutor or the prosecution's expert argued. In fact, dont forget that the prosecution
made a very persuasive argument to the jurors, to the point that they convicted Cynthia Sommer (for a murder that was never committed).

[annalyzer]

But she was already having the affair for several years at that point, Brad even testified to the fact that thgey had no intentions of leaving their spouses....while I get that love can be a reason for murder, she would have had nothing to gain by murdering WM....what would she gain, a big house and a mortgage she couldn't afford on her own?


I believe Brad would have left his wife for Melanie had she not been charged with murder. A new big house for him and her to live in. He made plenty of money to pay the bills.

[Great Dane]

I believe Brad would have left his wife for Melanie had she not been charged with murder. A new big house for him and her to live in. He made plenty of money to pay the bills.

That is speculative, BM had a sick kid at home....I seriously doubt he would disrupt his family, knowing he had MM all to himself...

[Topaz]

Well, Len, I was not moved by the prosecutor in Cynthia Sommer's trial.

I thought she was horrible. I don't think many people agreed with the verdict when it came down either. Everyone on CTV was appalled.

Not so with PP in MM's trial. That was conducted carefully, in a very organized way, with no hints of any LE errors.

I think LE in NJ started to look seriously at MM because:
1) her demeanor was strange, atypical. No missing person's report.

2) TWO attorneys accompanying her to her first interview.

3) when they discovered the gun purchase with false ID this sent up a red flag

4) medical blanket in the suitcase, and MM was a nurse.

5) then the lies about the gun in the lock box, about the luggage, about the AC trip, EZ pass records trying to be changed,

I could go on and on...but it started piling up on her pretty quickly.

This was no rush to judgement....there was plenty that LE found and followed.

On MM's side, she had ample time to get rid of any evidence. Almost a month, and used that time frame to clean the apartment. She lucked out in that regard, but not on the rest.

[annalyzer]

That is speculative, BM had a sick kid at home....I seriously doubt he would disrupt his family, knowing he had MM all to himself...

Oh I believe Melanie could have talked him into it. She is very manipulative. imo

[Great Dane]

Oh I believe Melanie could have talked him into it. She is very manipulative. imo

I'll have to take your word on that since I don't know her personally etc.

[BigDude]

If MM was so manipulative it seems like she could have persuaded BM in leaving his wife earlier. They had been having the affair for three years. That seems like long enough to work some magic IMO.
Big D

[annalyzer]

I wonder if Joseph Tacopina is still standing beside her? Anyone know?

[annalyzer]

If MM was so manipulative it seems like she could have persuaded BM in leaving his wife earlier. They had been having the affair for three years. That seems like long enough to work some magic IMO.
Big D

It takes some time to get a man to fall madly in love with you. I wouldn't think Brad was in love with her from the start. Perhaps she was just as happy with the affair the way it was going as he was for those three years. Many people murder their spouses after having an ongoing affair for years. And the question is usually brought up why murder when they're having their cake and eating it too? Who knows what made them decide to off their spouse at that particular time. Perhaps they had thought about it for quite awhile before carrying it off. imo

[Great Dane]

I did not follow the Cynthia Somner trial, ac tually MM's trial is the only one that I have ever actually followed and can not seem to shake, very annoying...lol

But, in googling it to see the connection, this excerpt srtood out inparticular:

My colleague wanted me to understand the immense power of a prosecutor and the need to reign in a “rush to judgment” mentality. He emphasized that doing justice doesn’t always mean trying to secure a conviction but doing what’s right whether it’s lowering the charges or dismissing them outright.

Sommer’s case may not have been a classic rush to judgment since there wasn’t even a criminal investigation until 15 months after Todd Sommer’s death. Moreover, Sommer wasn’t arrested until November 2005, more than three years after her husband’s death. Despite the holes in the prosecution’s case—the most glaring being no link between Sommer and arsenic—a jury of twelve San Diegans found her guilty. She was facing a sentence of life without parole.

I wonder if PP ever questions herself, her motives....

[4Life]

Can you explain to me, if you believe she drugged him in the TH, why that vile would have ever needed to be in the car?????

Yup, she was planning on getting rid of it with the gun and body but forgot it. Remember she finally admitted to being the last person in his car in AC

[Great Dane]

Yup, she was planning on getting rid of it with the gun and body but forgot it

She forgot? If what you are saying is true, why not leave it on her body, in a pocket...why put it in the glove compartment, why have it leave the house, why not toss it with the luggage/body? the fact that she supposedly had it in the TH, during the early stages of the murder, but decided to bring it with her, in the car, place it in the glove compartment and forget, doesn't make any sense....how can someone do all of the cutting, cleaning so thouroughly and leave such an essential piece of evidence in a place, that it never should have been in the 1st place....the CH was six steps before she evern supposedly got into the car

[annalyzer]

I did not follow the Cynthia Somner trial, ac tually MM's trial is the only one that I have ever actually followed and can not seem to shake, very annoying...lol




Perhaps if you had followed as many trials as some of us you would more easily be able to see just how manipulative Melanie is and how that much evidence against her can be picked apart individually but together as a whole is very overwhelming evidence as to her guilt.

[Len]

She forgot? If what you are saying is true, why not leave it on her body, in a pocket...why put it in the glove compartment, why have it leave the house, why not toss it with the luggage/body? the fact that she supposedly had it in the TH, during the early stages of the murder, but decided to bring it with her, in the car, place it in the glove compartment and forget, doesn't make any sense....how can someone do all of the cutting, cleaning so thouroughly and leave such an essential piece of evidence in a place, that it never should have been in the 1st place....the CH was six steps before she evern supposedly got into the car



The CH had obviously nothing to do with the murder. The victim's blood was tested and it was negative. The scenario of the prosecution involving use of CH to sedate the victim and then kill him was incredibly far-fetched with no evidence to really support it. And that is exactly the problem with the whole case. If the prosecution could only come up with such an unrealistic and unsupported scenario of how the murder happened, then maybe MM is really innocent. It means that the prosecution could not connect the dots based on evidence that would support a really possible scenario. Why? Apparently because there was no such convincing evidence.

[annalyzer]

Can you explain to me, if you believe she drugged him in the TH, why that vile would have ever needed to be in the car?????


Perhaps she planned on or did in fact use some of it to put her kids to sleep soundly or wanted to keep it to get herself to sleep at a future time. Who knows. There are almost always stupid mistakes made in a murder and that is why many murderers get caught.

[4Life]

She forgot? If what you are saying is true, why not leave it on her body, in a pocket...why put it in the glove compartment, why have it leave the house, why not toss it with the luggage/body? the fact that she supposedly had it in the TH, during the early stages of the murder, but decided to bring it with her, in the car, place it in the glove compartment and forget, doesn't make any sense....how can someone do all of the cutting, cleaning so thouroughly and leave such an essential piece of evidence in a place, that it never should have been in the 1st place....the CH was six steps before she evern supposedly got into the carWith all the lying she was telling and forgetting what she told who etc.. very easy for her to forget a small vile in the car. She made many errors and told many lies in this plot of murder and that was one of them.

[annalyzer]

excerpt ~

Next the prosecutor told the jury about important evidence that showed the murder had been carefully planned. All of it was captured on the McGuires’ home computer.

A computer expert told the jury about incriminating Internet searches that had been done in the days before Bill McGuire’s death.

Computer expert: There were several searches that involved things like names of chemicals and poisons. There were searches that involved guns and gun laws and things like that.

The expert said someone had browsed the Internet for advice on “How to commit murder.” And then there was this: a search for “chloral hydrate,” a powerful but uncommon sedative. There was also a search for a nearby Walgreen’s pharmacy.

Prezioso: Hooking it up with the computer search that led us to Walgreen’s was this very significant prescription written in a name of an RMA patient.

RMA—as in the clinic where Melanie worked. The prescription was for chloralhydrate, and it was filled at a Walgreen's just a mile from the daycare center where Melanie dropped off the children. There was something else about that prescription: it featured the signature of Dr. Bradley miller, Melanie’s former lover, and the state’s star witness.

Prosecutor: Sir, did you write that prescription?

DR. BRAD MILLER: No, I did not.

Prosecutor: Are you familiar with the handwriting on those two prescriptions?

DR. BRAD MILLER: Yes.

Prosecutor: And whose handwriting do you believe it to be?

DR. BRAD MILLER: It appears to be Melanie’s.

Patty Prezioso: Certainly this defendant had written prescriptions for Dr. Miller in the past, and would be familiar with doing that, and would have access to those pads.

And listen to this: the prescription had been picked up on April 28th, hours before he disappeared and possibly the last full day of Bill McGuire’s life. A vial of chloralhydrate was later found in Bill’s car by the police. The prosecutor said the killer used the sedative to knock McGuire unconscious before shooting him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18688528/page/4/

[Great Dane]

With all the lying she was telling and forgetting what she told who etc.. very easy for her to forget a small vile in the car. She made many errors and told many lies in this plot of murder and that was one of them.

You are referring to a much later point, with all of the lying and fear....at that particular point in time, she wasn't answering any questions to anyone...

[annalyzer]

oh I had forgotten about so much of the circumstantial evidence against poor wittle Melanie lol :rolleyes:

Jury hears testimony about anonymous letters
Prosecution alleges McGuire sent letters to attorneys, newspaper
BY KATHY CHANG
Staff Writer

NEW BRUNSWICK - A year following William McGuire's death, several anonymous letters were sent to people directly involved with investigating the McGuire case and to the media, according to authorities.

One of the charges that Melanie McGuire is accused of is allegedly sending Federal Express packages containing letters allegedly written by her to mislead authorities. A package was sent to then-Attorney General Peter Harvey, Assistant Attorney General Patricia Prezioso, the Trentonian newspaper, and her former lawyer between Oct. 9 and Oct. 11, 2005, authorities said.

The package also included a "Set her [Melanie] up" list, a "Final Stages" list, a man's wedding ring and bracelet, a key to William McGuire's old Nissan Maxima, and a key to the lock box in the storage bin in Edison, where McGuire moved her belongings after she moved out of the Woodbridge apartment.

The jury heard previous testimony that all items were processed for fingerprints and the results were negative. Fingerprints and a partial palm print were found inside the lock box, but did not match Melanie McGuire or her parents, Michael and Linda Cappararo.

McGuire, 34, a former fertility clinic nurse, is on trial for killing her husband, William McGuire, in their Woodbridge Center Plaza apartment and later dismembering his body between April 28 and May 5, 2004.

McGuire, who resides in Brick Township, remains free on $2.1 million bail.

A typewritten letter addressed to then-Attorney General Peter Harvey in August 2005, accused investigators of not doing a thorough investigation and characterizes William McGuire as a greedy person with a big ego, who loved to gamble in Atlantic City. The letter writer wrote several times that Melanie McGuire did not kill her husband. The letter writer also provided facts of the case that only investigators knew at the time and also details of William and Melanie McGuire's marriage and McGuire's job at New Jersey Institute of Technology.

A handwritten letter addressed to Madame Assistant Attorney General [Prezioso], suggested that it was written by Cindy Ligosh's [William McGurie's sister] colleague at Weichert Realtors in Franklin Lakes and that Ligosh wrote the "Set her Up" and "Final Stages" list, which authorities allege Melanie McGuire wrote to mislead authorities. Ligosh testified last week that she saw the items for the first time when she testified at the grand jury in 2005. Tamar Joffe, Ligosh's boss at Weichert Realtors, testified that she did not recognize the handwriting to be Ligosh's or any of her employees.

The Fed Ex package had a return address of Weichert Realtors in Franklin Lakes where Ligosh is a Realtor. However, Ligosh and her boss testified that the address and phone number were wrong.

On March 28, 2004, Ligosh went over to her brother's apartment in Woodbridge. Ligosh said it was the last time she saw her brother. As the two were sitting on the couch watching TV and drinking wine, they were complaining about their sister Nancy because she was complicating things over their mother Ruth's estate in Florida. Their mother passed away in the summer of 2003.

"Bill and I were up here, and Nancy, who did live in Florida, was still eight hours away from our mother's estate," said Ligosh, who said Melanie was in and out of the room. "So I picked up a pad that was next to the phone and started doodling since I always like to write things down. We came up with a list [three items] to get back at her. It was a joke between Bill and I, and we never intended to do any of the items on the list. We love our sister; we just were venting our frustrations. My brother fell asleep, so I wrote a note on the bottom of the paper that I would talk to him tomorrow."

The prosecution displayed the list to the jury. Prezioso asked Ligosh what she expected would happen to the list and how she felt about the list being displayed to the jury.

"I just expected that it would be thrown in the garbage," said Ligosh. "I'm mortified."

The 12-woman and four-man jury learned that the Fed Ex package was paid for by a $50 American Express gift card at a Rite Aid in Passaic County. New Jersey State Police were able to obtain video tape from a United Check Cashing surveillance camera, which caught a glimpse of a woman walking into the Rite Aid minutes before someone paid for the postage for the package.

Authorities were not able to conclusively identify that the woman was or was not Melanie McGuire.

In July 2005, an anonymous phone call was made to the Wycoff Police Department telling them that Cindy and Max Ligosh [William McGuire's sister and nephew] were stashing drugs outside in the bushes of their home.

Since March 2005, the state police had run wiretaps on Melanie McGuire and her close family and friends and had become familiar with their voices.

Detective John Pizzuro of the state police identified the voice of the anonymous phone call as McGuire's stepfather, Michael Cappararo.

The defense argued that the phone call was strictly made because the Cappararos were upset that Cindy Ligosh had custody over McGuire's two young sons.

In November 2005, a can, which contained various items including an Ultramax ammunition box, a few empty plastic bags, and drugs, were found outside in the bushes of the Ligosh home. Detective Dan Kellogg of the Wycoff Police Department testified that he searched the interior and exterior of the Ligosh home in July after the anonymous call was made and found nothing. The jury heard previous testimony that all items, including the can, were processed for fingerprints and the results were negative.

(more at link)
http://ws.gmnews.com/news/2007/0411/Front_page/023.html

[Great Dane]

MM was not found guilty of writing those letters....checked multiple times for fingerprints, none found matching MM or her family....

In regards to CL's doodle...I have never written down anything like that about anyone in my life, nonetheless my family....while I don't think CL had anything to do with the death of WM, I think that letter definitely sheds some insight into what kind of person she was....as far as MM keeping the doodle, I'm not sure that says anything about her....perhaps she kept it initially to show a friend, like...I told you she was a witch, look at her to do list for her own sister!

[annalyzer]

MM was not found guilty of writing those letters....checked multiple times for fingerprints, none found matching MM or her family....


Well it is a fact that they were written so who do you think wrote them and why?

Unbelievable. So much evidence against this woman and some will pick apart each individual piece instead of looking at the big picture. How could an innocent woman have this much evidence against her?

And then not even get on the stand to defend herself? lol

[4Life]

You are referring to a much later point, with all of the lying and fear....at that particular point in time, she wasn't answering any questions to anyone...Are you 100% positive about that?

[Great Dane]

Well it is a fact that they were written so who do you think wrote them and why?

Unbelievable. So much evidence against this woman and some will pick apart each individual piece instead of looking at the big picture. How could an innocent woman have this much evidence against her?

And then not even get on the stand to defend herself? lol

MM had lied on the stand for a driving infraction for WM years ago. Do you think PP wouldn't have mentioned that when she was on the stand???? Do you think the jury would have ignored that????

[BigDude]

I did not follow the Cynthia Somner trial, ac tually MM's trial is the only one that I have ever actually followed and can not seem to shake, very annoying...lol

But, in googling it to see the connection, this excerpt srtood out inparticular:

My colleague wanted me to understand the immense power of a prosecutor and the need to reign in a “rush to judgment” mentality. He emphasized that doing justice doesn’t always mean trying to secure a conviction but doing what’s right whether it’s lowering the charges or dismissing them outright.

Sommer’s case may not have been a classic rush to judgment since there wasn’t even a criminal investigation until 15 months after Todd Sommer’s death. Moreover, Sommer wasn’t arrested until November 2005, more than three years after her husband’s death. Despite the holes in the prosecution’s case—the most glaring being no link between Sommer and arsenic—a jury of twelve San Diegans found her guilty. She was facing a sentence of life without parole.

I wonder if PP ever questions herself, her motives....

PP may have not questioned herself, but by Mon June 8, she probably will be.

As to Tacopina being involved, who cares? He is old news.
Big D

[Great Dane]

Are you 100% positive about that?

No, I'm not....but, seeing as his body wasn't found until after that point/he wasn't missing....so, who would have been asking her? questioning her?

[Topaz]

The chloral hydrate in the car was NO ACCIDENT...it was completely devoid of fingerprints. It was wiped down.

I think it was put there as a red herring....to mislead the police when eventually the car was towed and possibly searched as abandoned, looking for ID. The presence of the drug would point away from MM to possible "street suppliers". But you know Chloral hydrate cannot be measured after 4 minutes in the body. Only certain metabolites. And it is not commonly diverted, or even carried by all pharmacies commonly. This drug is very rarely used today --this is one fact I am very sure of. It is so rarely used that it was taken off the market for a while. Not worth even making it! Some doctors protested and it came back as an orphan drug for children who are very impaired.

The little syringe implied to me oral use since the needle was missing.
Often small doses of 1 or 2ml are measured in syringes with the needles removed for small kids. MM would have syringes since she went to patients homes to administer shots of fertility drugs on occasion.

If that CH were for family use, there would be prints on it. And there were none. A murderer giving this drug to drug an adult would not be using small syringes. It would take 10ml to sedate an average adult (or more depending--like Anna Nichol Smith who had a tolerance from frequent use).

[Great Dane]

The chloral hydrate in the car was NO ACCIDENT...it was completely devoid of fingerprints. It was wiped down.

I think it was put there as a red herring....to mislead the police when eventually the car was towed and possibly searched as abandoned, looking for ID. The presence of the drug would point away from MM to possible "street suppliers". But you know Chloral hydrate cannot be measured after 4 minutes in the body. Only certain metabolites. And it is not commonly diverted, or even carried by all pharmacies commonly. This drug is very rarely used today --this is one fact I am very sure of. It is so rarely used that it was taken off the market for a while. Not worth even making it! Some doctors protested and it came back as an orphan drug for children who are very impaired.

The little syringe implied to me oral use since the needle was missing.
Often small doses of 1 or 2ml are measured in syringes with the needles removed for small kids. MM would have syringes since she went to patients homes to administer shots of fertility drugs on occasion.

If that CH were for family use, there would be prints on it. And there were none. A murderer giving this drug to drug an adult would not be using small syringes. It would take 10ml to sedate an average adult (or more depending--like Anna Nichol Smith who had a tolerance from frequent use).

Why place a perscription drug that could be traced back to the place you work, written on the script of your lover, MM may not be a genius....but, from what I understand she was a very smart woman, a good student...how could she have not thought about the possibility of that being traced back to her? This is her industry, and that is just "basic" knowledge...if her idea was to place a red herring, why not a bag of herroin off the street that couldn't be traced?????

[Great Dane]

If anything, I think the fact that it had no prints, was left on purpose is even greater proof that someone was trying to set her up....a trail of bread crumbs per say.....

:scared:

[annalyzer]

Why place a perscription drug that could be traced back to the place you work, written on the script of your lover, MM may not be a genius....but, from what I understand she was a very smart woman, a good student...how could she have not thought about the possibility of that being traced back to her? This is her industry, and that is just "basic" knowledge...if her idea was to place a red herring, why not a bag of herroin off the street that couldn't be traced?????


She thought she could outsmart LE. She isn't as smart as you think. In fact I find her quite stupid to do those searches on the internet and then murder her husband. But it happens all the time. She thought she was going to get away with it so she didn't worry about an internet search here or a gun purchase there. She had a ready made excuse for everything. And taken individually one by one her excuses may seem true. But add all of it together and the fact that the murdered man was her husband, no enemies to speak of, add in the affair and you've got one very guilty woman. imo

[Great Dane]

She thought she could outsmart LE. She isn't as smart as you think. In fact I find her quite stupid to do those searches on the internet and then murder her husband. But it happens all the time. She thought she was going to get away with it so she didn't worry about an internet search here or a gun purchase there. She had a ready made excuse for everything. And taken individually one by one her excuses may seem true. But add all of it together and the fact that the murdered man was her husband, no enemies to speak of, add in the affair and you've got one very guilty woman. imo

Okay, let's pretend for a moment what you are saying is true (about her being stupid)....at the time of the indictment (would she have known about the computer searches, had they been placed in as evidence yet), because if not (because I don;t think they confiscated her computer at that point) wouldn't this same stupid woman "if" she was sending a letter to the DA, and whomever else got a copy....wouldn't she leave DNA on it, or have a computer tracing og the letter....I mean, by the time the letter was being sent, she was being phone tapped etc., how could "she" get to an Amex card, mail the stuff out...without a trace, without any DNA evidence, without anything....while being monitered by the police? How was she able to pull that one off?

[annalyzer]

If anything, I think the fact that it had no prints, was left on purpose is even greater proof that someone was trying to set her up....a trail of bread crumbs per say.....

:scared:


"set her up" :laugh:

[Great Dane]

"set her up" :laugh:

HA ha, I didn't even realize that I used that term, that is a little laughable....but, it doesn't make sense that a nurse of all people, a person that could probbaly get her hands on a variety of different script pads....would decide to do things the way that they were done....not to say murders are supposed to make sense, but I agreed with JT's statement...is she really smart, caniving, manipulative...or is she stupid, she can't be both.....

One minute someone is suggesting she was so careless she left the CH in the car, the next someone is saying it was cleaned of prints and left on purpose....another person is stating that it was never used....and truthfully, none of us know for a fact that it was used....yet, it's a very pivital piece of evidence....

[annalyzer]

Okay, let's pretend for a moment what you are saying is true (about her being stupid)....at the time of the indictment (would she have known about the computer searches, had they been placed in as evidence yet), because if not (because I don;t think they confiscated her computer at that point) wouldn't this same stupid woman "if" she was sending a letter to the DA, and whomever else got a copy....wouldn't she leave DNA on it, or have a computer tracing og the letter....I mean, by the time the letter was being sent, she was being phone tapped etc., how could "she" get to an Amex card, mail the stuff out...without a trace, without any DNA evidence, without anything....while being monitered by the police? How was she able to pull that one off?

The same way anyone would do it. Someone did it, right? Why isn't anyone's dna on the letter?

[annalyzer]

HA ha, I didn't even realize that I used that term, that is a little laughable....but, it doesn't make sense that a nurse of all people, a person that could probbaly get her hands on a variety of different script pads....would decide to do things the way that they were done....not to say murders are supposed to make sense, but I agreed with JT's statement...is she really smart, caniving, manipulative...or is she stupid, she can't be both.....

One minute someone is suggesting she was so careless she left the CH in the car, the next someone is saying it was cleaned of prints and left on purpose....another person is stating that it was never used....and truthfully, none of us know for a fact that it was used....yet, it's a very pivital piece of evidence....

There have been so many cases over the last few years of people doing internet searches on how to kill their spouses or searches for poisons that ended up killing their spouse. I really don't know why people do such stupid things unless they are just so arrogant they don't think they'll be caught. I know some probably didn't realize those searches could be found on their computer after deleting them.

[Great Dane]

Someone did do it, but perhaps not someone that was being watched by the police.

I recall them searching MM's home, her parents home....I don't know which was done at what time, but where was she keeping these articles that showed up in the envelope?

Someone that was not a suspect had all of the time in the world to make sure things were done maticulously....they checked MM for the Amex card, found a few....but none that matched the one used to purchase the envelope etc....how odd that they didn't pay cash, or any other kind of gift card...for all you or I know, the killer gave MM a gift Card last year for Christmas, knew she utilized them....had recieved a few for her birthday one year....or does coincidence only work on the behalf of the opposing team? In a situation as such, cash would have been the easiest way.....don't you agree? why pay with a gift card?

[Jupiter]

Can you explain to me, if you believe she drugged him in the TH, why that vile would have ever needed to be in the car?????

She could have placed the CH in the car to make it look like it belonged to Bill. Bill’s car, Bill’s CH. That way she can tie the searches in the internet to Bill. For all we know, she could have realized the searches on her computer were going to be made public. If I remember, her computer was at her lawyer’s office before the state picked it up.

She was in a panic.

I don’t know how you feel or act when you’re trying to get away with murder. I can only guess at why or how she did things.

[Great Dane]

There have been so many cases over the last few years of people doing internet searches on how to kill their spouses or searches for poisons that ended up killing their spouse. I really don't know why people do such stupid things unless they are just so arrogant they don't think they'll be caught. I know some probably didn't realize those searches could be found on their computer after deleting them.

WM was a computer guy, MM had to have known that....she read mystery novels, again I'm sure she knew that....this is what I'm saying, believe me...I don't think this woman is a saint, but it's stuff like that....that makes me question the "big picture"....any time you allow anyone in your home, to have access to your things, even to use your toilet....they can get DNA from your razor, they can borrow your computer, check out the lay out of your home....

I don't know who killed WM, maybe it was MM....but, I wouldn't have been able to find her guilty BARD...with all of the question marks I have about sooooo many different things....and perhaps I am a little naive about the court system and what is/isn't enough evidence to place someone in jail for life, but I will tell you if what they had, is all anyone needs....I'm very afraid to ver know anyone in my life that may be murdered.....

[Great Dane]

She could have placed the CH in the car to make it look like it belonged to Bill. Bill’s car, Bill’s CH. That way she can tie the searches in the internet to Bill. For all we know, she could have realized the searches on her computer were going to be made public. If I remember, her computer was at her lawyer’s office before the state picked it up.

She was in a panic.

I don’t know how you feel or act when you’re trying to get away with murder. I can only guess at why or how she did things.

So, in the midst of her panic state, she wiped the prints clean and left a bottle that could easily be traced....(it was CH, not amoxicillan) back to her or her lover? or her work place?????

[Len]

The chloral hydrate in the car was NO ACCIDENT...it was completely devoid of fingerprints. It was wiped down.

I think it was put there as a red herring....to mislead the police when eventually the car was towed and possibly searched as abandoned, looking for ID. The presence of the drug would point away from MM to possible "street suppliers". But you know Chloral hydrate cannot be measured after 4 minutes in the body. Only certain metabolites. And it is not commonly diverted, or even carried by all pharmacies commonly. This drug is very rarely used today --this is one fact I am very sure of. It is so rarely used that it was taken off the market for a while. Not worth even making it! Some doctors protested and it came back as an orphan drug for children who are very impaired.

The little syringe implied to me oral use since the needle was missing.
Often small doses of 1 or 2ml are measured in syringes with the needles removed for small kids. MM would have syringes since she went to patients homes to administer shots of fertility drugs on occasion.

If that CH were for family use, there would be prints on it. And there were none. A murderer giving this drug to drug an adult would not be using small syringes. It would take 10ml to sedate an average adult (or more depending--like Anna Nichol Smith who had a tolerance from frequent use).


Topaz,
Wait a second. We do not know whether the prints were "wiped out". There is no way to know that. All we know is that no prints could be recovered from that small vial. That is not that uncommon with small objects.

Also, although the half-life of CH is 4-5 minutes, its metabolites can be measured for days. And that is how its use can be detected.

IMO it makes absolutely no sense that MM would place it there as "red herring". If she had faked the script to obtain the drug and use it to kill her husband, she must have checked and know the very basics. Like the fact that this drug is almost never used (as you pointed out). She would know that leaving it in the car would raise suspicions against her and would ignite a search to find out where the drug came from.

I think the presence of the CH in the glove compartment is a bizarre event that can not be explained with what we know. But there is one thing that IMO is almost certain based on the evidence. That CH was not used to sedate and kill the victim as per the prosecution's theory. The blood test was negative.

[Jupiter]

But she was already having the affair for several years at that point, Brad even testified to the fact that thgey had no intentions of leaving their spouses....while I get that love can be a reason for murder, she would have had nothing to gain by murdering WM....what would she gain, a big house and a mortgage she couldn't afford on her own?





BM did say in court that at some point they were going to leave their spouses and marry as they wanted to have children together.

He, BM, was a HUGE meal ticket to her… He was in for MILLIONS at RMA.

This isn’t about MM’s feelings. A sociopath is incapable of having feelings. It was about her controlling the situation, the affair, her marriage, her kids.

Her husband didn’t agree to having children before the wedding, she made that decision by herself.

She was a controlling, manipulative, coldhearted, sociopath. She did a GREAT job of making people think the opposite about her. That’s what a sociopath will do. One in every 24 people is a sociopath. These could be people you know, living next door to you. They don’t wear a sign saying they are a sociopath.

When they are smart, like MM, they can be very dangerous. This, of course, is just my opinion.

[annalyzer]

Someone did do it, but perhaps not someone that was being watched by the police.

I recall them searching MM's home, her parents home....I don't know which was done at what time, but where was she keeping these articles that showed up in the envelope?

Someone that was not a suspect had all of the time in the world to make sure things were done maticulously....they checked MM for the Amex card, found a few....but none that matched the one used to purchase the envelope etc....how odd that they didn't pay cash, or any other kind of gift card...for all you or I know, the killer gave MM a gift Card last year for Christmas, knew she utilized them....had recieved a few for her birthday one year....or does coincidence only work on the behalf of the opposing team? In a situation as such, cash would have been the easiest way.....don't you agree? why pay with a gift card?


Who do you think wanted Bill dead and also wanted Melanie set up to look like she did it? But then wrote those letters saying she didn't do it.

[Great Dane]

Jupiter:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not recall Brad Miller ever saying anything to that effect, if anyone ONE time on the wire tapped call, he mentioned somehting about marriage and MM was like what, where is that coming from?

If you have proof of that statement and you can find it, I'd love to see it....I went looking for proof of twhat he said yesterday for someone else and could not locate what I was sekking, perhaps you will be more successful....:tongueside:

[annalyzer]

BM did say in court that at some point they were going to leave their spouses and marry as they wanted to have children together.

He, BM, was a HUGE meal ticket to her… He was in for MILLIONS at RMA.



And she wasn't going to get very far with her husband who iirc had a serious gambling addiction.

[Great Dane]

Who do you think wanted Bill dead and also wanted Melanie set up to look like she did it? But then wrote those letters saying she didn't do it.

I have no idea, perhaps they didn't think the LE would think it was her, maybe they were trying to set up WM...maybe they didn't know they used two different computers, maybe they didn't know MM was sleeping with her dr. friend,perhaps they knew they did it....and never thought that an iccocent woman would be sent to jail for their crime....I don't have all of the answers obviously....but soemone that didn't think the thigs they did wouldd amount to her being accused, might feel like trying to save her....:unsure:

[Great Dane]

And she wasn't going to get very far with her husband who iirc had a serious gambling addiction.

A felon, a huge gambling addiction, was known for his get rich schemes according to Bill Rice in the Glatt book....the out of state insurance, the one night stand....Trust me when I say, I'm not trying to degrade WM's memory, but this was not an upstanding guy....you can't ignore the fact that he may have had enemies, or people that weren't such a fan of him....

On that note, I'm logging off....>yawn

[Jupiter]

There was never a real motive presented that held much weight IMO. It was a very remote plan that MM and BM had talked about regarding any future plans for marriage. Didn't MM say to BM on the phone, why was he bringing up marriage?

The CH played no part in this murder as far a I am convinced. The story told by the prosecutor made no sense and could not be backed up by any convincing evidence, IMO.
Big D

I believe the motive was MONEY, prestige, power. Brad was worth big bucks. If she were married to Brad, she would be a part of that practice in a BIG way.

Getting divorced was expensive. In her mind, it was easier to get rid of him.

Those are motives.

She knew that there was a possibility her conversations were being monitored on the phone. She even spoke in code with her stepfather.

[annalyzer]

Jupiter:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not recall Brad Miller ever saying anything to that effect, if anyone ONE time on the wire tapped call, he mentioned somehting about marriage and MM was like what, where is that coming from?

If you have proof of that statement and you can find it, I'd love to see it....I went looking for proof of twhat he said yesterday for someone else and could not locate what I was sekking, perhaps you will be more successful....:tongueside:


excerpt ~

Next on the stand was her ex-lover, Dr. Bradley Miller. It was the first time in two years that Melanie came face-to-face with Miller, whom the prosecution claims was a motive for murder.

On the stand, Miller testified that his relationship got more intimate with Melanie when she was 38 weeks pregnant.

What was Melanie thinking?

"I'm thinking, 'Here is somebody who thinks the sun rises and sets over me anyway,'" she tells Maher.

Miller also testified that he was in love with Melanie at the time and that she had also told him she loved him. "Just to hear him get up there and say how much he had loved me," Melanie commented in her diary on Miller's testimony. "I just died all over again."

"We were hoping to be together in the future, to buy a house and have kids together," Miller testified.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/48hours/main3300536_page5.shtml

[annalyzer]

A felon, a huge gambling addiction, was known for his get rich schemes according to Bill Rice in the Glatt book....the out of state insurance, the one night stand....Trust me when I say, I'm not trying to degrade WM's memory, but this was not an upstanding guy....you can't ignore the fact that he may have had enemies, or people that weren't such a fan of him....

On that note, I'm logging off....>yawn

He liked to gamble. I don't remember any evidence of any large gambling debts or of any enemies.

[Topaz]

Never confuse intelligence with common sense.

MM was intelligent...very. She majored in statistics! A math person.
Somewhat more organized than the average person.

But a "feeling" person? Maybe not. She handled some patients at RMA roughly...and some complained publicly on their website.
Was this a lack of empathy? perhaps.

One very dominant characteristic of narcissistic sociopaths is that they do not understand human issues. They can manipulate people, they can pose as anything or anyone you may want or desire, but in the end their lack of self/feeling and arrogance and grandiosity brings them down. They get caught up in their own lies, and some of those lies can totally backfire on them because of this grandiosity.

Prisons are full of them. Up to 40% of prisoners are sociopaths.

One need only look at Neil Entwhistle. He was similar, although male.
It is thought that 75% of narcissists are male. That leaves the smaller number as female. Many people are just unequipped to deal with a person of this caliper. Most normal people trust, and extend second chances when hurt. Sociopaths take advantage of this, and get what they want... but they can fail..and when they do, it can be a biggie like what MM did.

Read Martha Stout's book...The Sociopath Next Door... it will open your eyes if you don't know much about this subject.

[Jupiter]

excerpt ~

Next on the stand was her ex-lover, Dr. Bradley Miller. It was the first time in two years that Melanie came face-to-face with Miller, whom the prosecution claims was a motive for murder.

On the stand, Miller testified that his relationship got more intimate with Melanie when she was 38 weeks pregnant.

What was Melanie thinking?

"I'm thinking, 'Here is somebody who thinks the sun rises and sets over me anyway,'" she tells Maher.

Miller also testified that he was in love with Melanie at the time and that she had also told him she loved him. "Just to hear him get up there and say how much he had loved me," Melanie commented in her diary on Miller's testimony. "I just died all over again."

"We were hoping to be together in the future, to buy a house and have kids together," Miller testified.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/48hours/main3300536_page5.shtml

Thanks Annalyzer! She had him, hook, line & sinker…

She was good at manipulating the men in her life.

[Jupiter]

excerpt ~

Next on the stand was her ex-lover, Dr. Bradley Miller. It was the first time in two years that Melanie came face-to-face with Miller, whom the prosecution claims was a motive for murder.

On the stand, Miller testified that his relationship got more intimate with Melanie when she was 38 weeks pregnant.

What was Melanie thinking?

"I'm thinking, 'Here is somebody who thinks the sun rises and sets over me anyway,'" she tells Maher.

Miller also testified that he was in love with Melanie at the time and that she had also told him she loved him. "Just to hear him get up there and say how much he had loved me," Melanie commented in her diary on Miller's testimony. "I just died all over again."

"We were hoping to be together in the future, to buy a house and have kids together," Miller testified.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/48hours/main3300536_page5.shtml

Thanks Annalyzer! She had him, hook, line & sinker…

She was good at manipulating the men in her life.

[Jupiter]

Never confuse intelligence with common sense.

MM was intelligent...very. She majored in statistics! A math person.
Somewhat more organized than the average person.

But a "feeling" person? Maybe not. She handled some patients at RMA roughly...and some complained publicly on their website.
Was this a lack of empathy? perhaps.

One very dominant characteristic of narcissistic sociopaths is that they do not understand human issues. They can manipulate people, they can pose as anything or anyone you may want or desire, but in the end their lack of self/feeling and arrogance and grandiosity brings them down. They get caught up in their own lies, and some of those lies can totally backfire on them because of this grandiosity.

Prisons are full of them. Up to 40% of prisoners are sociopaths.

One need only look at Neil Entwhistle. He was similar, although male.
It is thought that 75% of narcissists are male. That leaves the smaller number as female. Many people are just unequipped to deal with a person of this caliper. Most normal people trust, and extend second chances when hurt. Sociopaths take advantage of this, and get what they want... but they can fail..and when they do, it can be a biggie like what MM did.

Read Martha Stout's book...The Sociopath Next Door... it will open your eyes if you don't know much about this subject.

That was an excellent book! I just read it. I completely agree with you.

[Jack&Jill]

What amazes me about this case is the clean up. CSI has found blood from years eariler in some cases, but IIRC they even removed plate covers, molding and found nothing. Nothing in the drains...or traps.

I didn't follow this case super well, mostly what I saw on 'Snapped' and 48 hours...did they ever say where she got the sawzall?


Exactly. I saw a case on forensic files where blood was found in the wood flooring ( cracks, crevices ) 20 years after a murder , not a SPEC of blood was found in the wood flooring. not a spec of any DNA throughout that home.

If the murder didn't happen at the TH , then MM could not have done it .

As for the sawzall , the ONLY matching saw was that owned by Brad Miller ,but he got a proffer for wire tapping his calls to MM !

[4Life]

What amazes me about this case is the clean up. CSI has found blood from years eariler in some cases, but IIRC they even removed plate covers, molding and found nothing. Nothing in the drains...or traps.

I didn't follow this case super well, mostly what I saw on 'Snapped' and 48 hours...did they ever say where she got the sawzall?

There was no DNA at all in that townhouse, nothing fom MM,WM or the 2 small boys.

Never ssaid where the saw came from. Miller had one but MMs stepfather had 25 saws in his home

[BigDude]

I don't remember one thing in court saying that MM's father had any saws that would match the marks made on WM's body. His duct tape did not match any of the tape found on the victim's bags either. Nothing MM had was ever found to have matched what was found with the victim including the bags. The police should have looked at other people IMO.
BigD

[Dtviewer3]

I don't remember one thing in court saying that MM's father had any saws that would match the marks made on WM's body. His duct tape did not match any of the tape found on the victim's bags either. Nothing MM had was ever found to have matched what was found with the victim including the bags. The police should have looked at other people IMO.
BigD

Umm, did you forget?

Bill McGuires body was found in the family luggage.

[BigDude]

Yes, of course I know that there was the family luggage, but WM probably left with them when he stormed out of the townhouse or already had them in his car.

I agree with Great Dane and Len that the CH played no part in this crime. If the CH had been used, it would have ended up in the same place the gun did. Long gone.

[Dtviewer3]

I have to disagree with you. What about the luggage? It belonged to Ms Mcguire
The razor stubble on the tape belonged to both Mcguires
The blankets, RMA used those at one time, they had not for a time.
The bags matched according to the States expert witness. The defense called in Ms Ginter as their expert witness on the bags, the only problem with her saying the bags did not match- She never got to examine or test the bags, she only came to her conclusion from notes she had been given. The very next day she did a live interview on Court TV,phone interview, where she admitted to not being able to examine the bags or do any testing of her own. She also said she made some mathematiical errors.

Of course.

And dont forget the bullet found in the bag happened to be the SAME EXACT TYPE melanie purchased.

(And lied under oath about having of course)

And the state also had another witness testify about the dye cut markings on the bag matched to bags that Melanie and William had owned.

Melanie will never see a day free again...........

[Len]

Exactly. I saw a case on forensic files where blood was found in the wood flooring ( cracks, crevices ) 20 years after a murder , not a SPEC of blood was found in the wood flooring. not a spec of any DNA throughout that home.

If the murder didn't happen at the TH , then MM could not have done it .



That's the whole point. The evidence is inconsistent with the murder happening in that TH. If the murder did not happen there, the timeline of events makes it essentially impossible for MM to be the actual killer. That is why the scenario of the prosecution was focused on the murder happening in the TH. Despite all the evidence against it.

[Jupiter]

Yes, of course I know that there was the family luggage, but WM probably left with them when he stormed out of the townhouse or already had them in his car.

I agree with Great Dane and Len that the CH played no part in this crime. If the CH had been used, it would have ended up in the same place the gun did. Long gone.

Big Dude… What do you think; he stormed out of the house with 3 suitcases? Yeah…right.

[Jack&Jill]

The chloral hydrate in the car was NO ACCIDENT...it was completely devoid of fingerprints. It was wiped down.

I think it was put there as a red herring....to mislead the police when eventually the car was towed and possibly searched as abandoned, looking for ID. The presence of the drug would point away from MM to possible "street suppliers". But you know Chloral hydrate cannot be measured after 4 minutes in the body. Only certain metabolites. And it is not commonly diverted, or even carried by all pharmacies commonly. This drug is very rarely used today --this is one fact I am very sure of. It is so rarely used that it was taken off the market for a while. Not worth even making it! Some doctors protested and it came back as an orphan drug for children who are very impaired.

The little syringe implied to me oral use since the needle was missing.
Often small doses of 1 or 2ml are measured in syringes with the needles removed for small kids. MM would have syringes since she went to patients homes to administer shots of fertility drugs on occasion.

If that CH were for family use, there would be prints on it. And there were none. A murderer giving this drug to drug an adult would not be using small syringes. It would take 10ml to sedate an average adult (or more depending--like Anna Nichol Smith who had a tolerance from frequent use).

I see a lot of contradiction in your post. The thing that stands out most and will comment at the moment on is IF this syringe was left there on PURPOSE, WHO in the medical field would have obtained a script for that drug from a clinic in which they worked to be traced back to the Dr. ordering it,false or not. a paper trail of this sort is most apparent and MM would certainly not have done such a thing.

She would not have bought a gun in her own name with her own drivers license. She would not have written a script from her own place of employment SIGNED by a man she was having an affair with. She would not have spoken so sourly of WM before and after to offer suspicion that she and WM were not fond of one another. She would have played the part of a widow , but she didn't try to hide her distaste of WM at all.


So what would account for these acts , placing a syringe from a script obtained at the clinic she worked signed by the Doctor she was having an affair with placed in the glove box, but YES void of prints, of course , who would have access to a script pad here or there MM had from her work, Who was able to enter MM town home , who did she trust ,not knowing she could not really trust. Who had motive , where was WM really murdered it was NOT that town home .

[Len]

Of course.

And dont forget the bullet found in the bag happened to be the SAME EXACT TYPE melanie purchased.

(And lied under oath about having of course)

And the state also had another witness testify about the dye cut markings on the bag matched to bags that Melanie and William had owned.

Melanie will never see a day free again...........


Hi DT,
Nice to see you again. I am afraid you have it wrong (as always). The fact that Baker Botts is representing her pro-bono in her appeal, suggest that she has a real chance. JMO.

[Jack&Jill]

Yes, of course I know that there was the family luggage, but WM probably left with them when he stormed out of the townhouse or already had them in his car.

I agree with Great Dane and Len that the CH played no part in this crime. If the CH had been used, it would have ended up in the same place the gun did. Long gone.

My feeling on the luggage is that he already had the suitcases packed in his trunk,he was moving the NEXT DAY, or perhaps they did argure and he packed his stuff, lots of it because he was heading to the new home , or someone packed them in advance for him. I am convinced this woman was set up for the murder of her husband, by someone close.

Who I am not sure.

Big dude may I ask ,who was the CH for , do you believe MM did write that script and pick it up, just curious.

[Dtviewer3]

Hi DT,
Nice to see you again. I am afraid you have it wrong (as always). The fact that Baker Botts is representing her pro-bono in her appeal, suggest that she has a real chance. JMO.

Please.

Melanie is just another criminal among thousands and thousands begging for an appeal.

Just because a big firm sees a chance to get involved in a very visible high profile case means nothing.

Her appeal, just like her case, will fail miserably.

Hope she has gotten comfortable in her new life/home........

[Len]

Please.

Melanie is just another criminal among thousands and thousands begging for an appeal.

Just because a big firm sees a chance to get involved in a very visible high profile case means nothing.

Her appeal, just like her case, will fail miserably.

Hope she has gotten comfortable in her new life/home........


I think you had similar opinions about the Cynthia Sommer case. Right?

[Jack&Jill]

There was no DNA at all in that townhouse, nothing fom MM,WM or the 2 small boys.

Never ssaid where the saw came from. Miller had one but MMs stepfather had 25 saws in his home


Yes that always threw me that Dr.Millers saw, was the ONLY saw that matched the marks on WM's body. Very disturbing.

What it not disturbing is that MM father did have 25 saws and not one of them matched.Nothing was ever linked to MM mother and father, yet PP tried without success to suggest they were somehow involved. The problem was MM was not involved ,so therefore nor were her parents.

Brad millers saw may just have been a fluke.

[Dtviewer3]

I think you had similar opinions about the Cynthia Sommer case. Right?

As I have told you over and over.
I never followed the CS trial.

I made one post on the forum after her convivtion.

Something like "another day, another murderer".

We've been over this many times before Len.
I didnt follow her trial. None.

[Jack&Jill]

Odd that the script was picked up not far from the childrens day care center, in fact you can see the day care center from the pharmacy


Oh so odd isn't it.

which is yet another reason I believe she was framed, after all who would go to such lengths to get caught murdering their husband ? Certainly MM needn't look up the address on her home PC for a walgreens that was right by her children's daycare ! However,someone who is being set up WOULD go to all these lengths that there is no other explanation for.

We are to believe this woman was so analytical and genius ,yet made certain that every detail of the murder had some connection that would lead right back to her and her lover.

That is the WHOLE issue IMO.

[Dtviewer3]

Yes that always threw me that Dr.Millers saw, was the ONLY saw that matched the marks on WM's body. Very disturbing.
Not true. Dr Millers saw was NEVER EVER matched to the marks on Wm's body. Never.
What it not disturbing is that MM father did have 25 saws and not one of them matched.
There was never a saw found that was matched to the marks. Its reasonable the saw was discarded just as was the gun.
Nothing was ever linked to MM mother and father, yet PP tried without success to suggest they were somehow involved.
PP as many others do believed the ez-pass records linked the dumping of the body to MM and the parents.

The problem was MM was not involved ,so therefore nor were her parents.

The facts proved otherwise to the jury. MM is in jail for the rest of her life as we speak.

Brad millers saw may just have been a fluke.

It was.


Above......

[Dtviewer3]

Oh so odd isn't it.

which is yet another reason I believe she was framed, after all who would go to such lengths to get caught murdering their husband ? Certainly MM needn't look up the address on her home PC for a walgreens that was right by her children's daycare ! However,someone who is being set up WOULD go to all these lengths that there is no other explanation for.

The CH wasnt picked up from the Walgreens right near the daycare. It was picked up from another walgreens within minutes of the daycare. NOT the closest walgreens.It was picked up from the walgreens that was looked up on the home computer. This was testified to at trial.

We are to believe this woman was so analytical and genius ,
Genius??? LOL--your words, certainly I have never heard anyone call her a genius.

yet made certain that every detail of the murder had some connection that would lead right back to her and her lover.

thats how criminals get caught..........

That is the WHOLE issue IMO.

Above.........

[Pinwheel]

hi!! :thumbsup:

read that an appeal is getting filed so i thought this was the place for the best chatter. I followed the case back then and the boards but didn't post.

does anyone anticipate what the appeal grounds are? does anyone have a primer on what the appeal process is?

[Jack&Jill]

Above......

From my understanding of a poster here there is an appeal pending and the Attorneys have taken the case pro-bono, that alone speaks volumes.

I see this quote is not outlining all of your post, which were in RED and embedded in my post. Refer back to that if need be.

Do you have an issue with the appeal and perhaps a new trial or other where new evidence you have no knowledge of may exist to further warrant such?


Why would this be so disturbing if there were, if someone is innocent I feel they should be granted a new trial or be set free .

[annalyzer]

I have looked up places online to see what time they open. Ms Mcguire could have been checking on the time they open, helping her decide if she could pick up the script on her way to taking the children to day care or on the way back.


yep, I have too. that whole set up thing is ridiculous. who else would have access to melanie's computer to make the search and also had access to the prescription pad and also had access to Bill's car to leave it in the glovebox. :rolleyes:

[Jack&Jill]

Really? That is news to me and I followed this case every single day. I never once heard that Dr. Millers saw matched the marks on Mr Mcguires body

I'm sorry let me rephrase that for correction. Dr millers TYPE of SAW was THE SAME EXACT TYPE of saw that the expert felt was used to make the markings on WM body. The expert had one huge problem in testing the OTHER blade, hence the saw came with 2 blades , but ONE was MISSING so therefore no one could possibly learn IF the OTHER blade could have been the ONE that was used to chop up WM body.

But the point is it was DR .Millers same type of saw that the expert said was used to chop up WM body. that is alarming to say the least.

[BigDude]

J&J---

MM did not write the CH prescription and Miller said it court it was NOT her signature of his name- (Miller). The entire matter with the CH is just plain disturbing. I am sure MM did not have a thing to do with it but then if you think WM wrote it which he could have because he had been to pharmacy school. But then one of the letters that was sent in with the Fed Ex package looked like the same printing that was on the prescription. So who knows how this CH saga started. Like Great Dane said there was nothing signed when the prescription was picked up and the employee did not remember who picked it up.
BIG D

[Dtviewer3]

From my understanding of a poster here there is an appeal pending and the Attorneys have taken the case pro-bono, that alone speaks volumes.

I see this quote is not outlining all of your post, which were in RED and embedded in my post. Refer back to that if need be.

Do you have an issue with the appeal and perhaps a new trial or other where new evidence you have no knowledge of may exist to further warrant such?


Why would this be so disturbing if there were, if someone is innocent I feel they should be granted a new trial or be set free .

Many many cases are taken pro-bono.
Means nothing as far as guilt is concerned.

I have no issue with an appeal at all. Melanie can file 100 appeals for all I care.

Or 1000.

Or even 1 million.

It still wont change the mountain of evidence against her.

[annalyzer]

J&J---

MM did not write the CH prescription and Miller said it court it was NOT her signature of his name- (Miller). The entire matter with the CH is just plain disturbing. I am sure MM did not have a thing to do with it but then if you think WM wrote it which he could have because he had been to pharmacy school. But then one of the letters that was sent in with the Fed Ex package looked like the same printing that was on the prescription. So who knows how this CH saga started. Like Great Dane said there was nothing signed when the prescription was picked up and the employee did not remember who picked it up.
BIG D


(I posted this on the previous page)

excerpt ~

Next the prosecutor told the jury about important evidence that showed the murder had been carefully planned. All of it was captured on the McGuires’ home computer.

A computer expert told the jury about incriminating Internet searches that had been done in the days before Bill McGuire’s death.

Computer expert: There were several searches that involved things like names of chemicals and poisons. There were searches that involved guns and gun laws and things like that.

The expert said someone had browsed the Internet for advice on “How to commit murder.” And then there was this: a search for “chloral hydrate,” a powerful but uncommon sedative. There was also a search for a nearby Walgreen’s pharmacy.

Prezioso: Hooking it up with the computer search that led us to Walgreen’s was this very significant prescription written in a name of an RMA patient.

RMA—as in the clinic where Melanie worked. The prescription was for chloralhydrate, and it was filled at a Walgreen's just a mile from the daycare center where Melanie dropped off the children. There was something else about that prescription: it featured the signature of Dr. Bradley miller, Melanie’s former lover, and the state’s star witness.

Prosecutor: Sir, did you write that prescription?

DR. BRAD MILLER: No, I did not.

Prosecutor: Are you familiar with the handwriting on those two prescriptions?

DR. BRAD MILLER: Yes.

Prosecutor: And whose handwriting do you believe it to be?

DR. BRAD MILLER: It appears to be Melanie’s.

Patty Prezioso: Certainly this defendant had written prescriptions for Dr. Miller in the past, and would be familiar with doing that, and would have access to those pads.

And listen to this: the prescription had been picked up on April 28th, hours before he disappeared and possibly the last full day of Bill McGuire’s life. A vial of chloralhydrate was later found in Bill’s car by the police. The prosecutor said the killer used the sedative to knock McGuire unconscious before shooting him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18688528/page/4/

[Dtviewer3]

J&J---

MM did not write the CH prescription and Miller said it court it was NOT her signature of his name- (Miller).

Correction. Dr Miller said the script looked to be written by MM but the signature didnt look like she wrote it.

The entire matter with the CH is just plain disturbing. I am sure MM did not have a thing to do with it

It was written on a pad from Mels work.
It was written to a patients name from Mels work.
It was picked up from a walgreens searched on Mels/wWm's computer.
It was picked up MINUTES after Mel dropped the kids at daycare, at a walgreens 1.8 miles from the daycare.
It was written in handwriting that Miller said looked to be Mels.


-snipped-----
BIG D

Thats a damning mountain of circumstantial evidence to try to ignore

[Jack&Jill]

I have looked up places online to see what time they open. Ms Mcguire could have been checking on the time they open, helping her decide if she could pick up the script on her way to taking the children to day care or on the way back.


I have to wonder why is it so compelling that some worry about an appeal ,if its so certain the real murderer is where she belongs. It is obvious why those of us who feel she is innocent have interest, yet the reciprocal of that does not add up for me.

[BigDude]

Yes that always threw me that Dr.Millers saw, was the ONLY saw that matched the marks on WM's body. Very disturbing.

What it not disturbing is that MM father did have 25 saws and not one of them matched.Nothing was ever linked to MM mother and father, yet PP tried without success to suggest they were somehow involved. The problem was MM was not involved ,so therefore nor were her parents.

Brad millers saw may just have been a fluke.

J&J---

Brad Miller's saw may have been a great big lie. How does LE know for sure what cut the body other than a saw that had been used to cut PVC white shavings prior to cutting WM up into three pieces. No PVC shavings were found near the furnace at the McGuire home. So who had been sawing PVC before the murder? I cannot picture Miller fixing anything around his house with his saw. Another handyman out there who WM upset and wanted him dead?!
Big D

[Dtviewer3]

I have to wonder why is it so compelling that some worry about an appeal ,if its so certain the real murderer is where she belongs. It is obvious why those of us who feel she is innocent have interest, yet the reciprocal of that does not add up for me.

I have yet to see one single person say they were 'worried' about an appeal.

Could you please point one out to me?

[Jupiter]

J&J---

MM did not write the CH prescription and Miller said it court it was NOT her signature of his name- (Miller). The entire matter with the CH is just plain disturbing. I am sure MM did not have a thing to do with it but then if you think WM wrote it which he could have because he had been to pharmacy school. But then one of the letters that was sent in with the Fed Ex package looked like the same printing that was on the prescription. So who knows how this CH saga started. Like Great Dane said there was nothing signed when the prescription was picked up and the employee did not remember who picked it up.
BIG D

Sorry, but I believe you are wrong. Dr. Miller said that was his name on the script, but he didn’t sign it… SOMEONE signed his name and forged his signature.

[Jack&Jill]

Very odd for a package shipper to own 25 saws. It could be possible he had 26 and the 26th one disappeared with the gun.

I think the mother and fathers ez-pass hits suggest they were involved in some way, shape or form. I believe one of the bags in their garage also suggest they were involved.
I note you find it odd for a package shipper to have 25 saws. so WHAT EXACTLY are you suggesting then ,that he was a serial killer and used all these saws to murder people ,yet only ditched ONE of them when it hit too close to home ?

Perhaps he was into wood working, remodeling , building things.

[Jack&Jill]

I have yet to see one single person say they were 'worried' about an appeal.

Could you please point one out to me?

Must I really point out the obvious to you? Why else would there be a rash of interest if there was no worry? I have explained already the NG stance and the obvious interest WE would most certainly have.

I think that should wrap that up tightly, shall we move on now that its totally cleared up.

[4Life]

I see KR is back :tonguewag:

[4Life]

(I posted this on the previous page)

excerpt ~

Next the prosecutor told the jury about important evidence that showed the murder had been carefully planned. All of it was captured on the McGuires’ home computer.

A computer expert told the jury about incriminating Internet searches that had been done in the days before Bill McGuire’s death.

Computer expert: There were several searches that involved things like names of chemicals and poisons. There were searches that involved guns and gun laws and things like that.

The expert said someone had browsed the Internet for advice on “How to commit murder.” And then there was this: a search for “chloral hydrate,” a powerful but uncommon sedative. There was also a search for a nearby Walgreen’s pharmacy.

Prezioso: Hooking it up with the computer search that led us to Walgreen’s was this very significant prescription written in a name of an RMA patient.

RMA—as in the clinic where Melanie worked. The prescription was for chloralhydrate, and it was filled at a Walgreen's just a mile from the daycare center where Melanie dropped off the children. There was something else about that prescription: it featured the signature of Dr. Bradley miller, Melanie’s former lover, and the state’s star witness.

Prosecutor: Sir, did you write that prescription?

DR. BRAD MILLER: No, I did not.

Prosecutor: Are you familiar with the handwriting on those two prescriptions?

DR. BRAD MILLER: Yes.

Prosecutor: And whose handwriting do you believe it to be?

DR. BRAD MILLER: It appears to be Melanie’s.

Patty Prezioso: Certainly this defendant had written prescriptions for Dr. Miller in the past, and would be familiar with doing that, and would have access to those pads.

And listen to this: the prescription had been picked up on April 28th, hours before he disappeared and possibly the last full day of Bill McGuire’s life. A vial of chloralhydrate was later found in Bill’s car by the police. The prosecutor said the killer used the sedative to knock McGuire unconscious before shooting him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18688528/page/4/

Thats what I thought but someone here told me I was wrong. TY :thumbsup:

[BigDude]

I beg your pardon my fellow posters. Miller said it was not his signature the way MM signed his prescriptions. You trying to lie and make it so, will not change the testimony at the trial.

I agree that if the other posters were convinced the evidence was secure that they would have dropped this case a long time ago. It appears that they are waiting for the shoe to drop.
Big D

[Jack&Jill]

J&J---

Brad Miller's saw may have been a great big lie. How does LE know for sure what cut the body other than a saw that had been used to cut PVC white shavings prior to cutting WM up into three pieces. No PVC shavings were found near the furnace at the McGuire home. So who had been sawing PVC before the murder? I cannot picture Miller fixing anything around his house with his saw. Another handyman out there who WM upset and wanted him dead?!
Big D


Are there any play sets for children that are made from PVC materials, such as some lawn furniture are?

IF perhaps BM was involved and was given the proffer and he would be forever safe from conviction,it would be difficult for MM to ever voice this hence even her knowing what BM did to her husband and not coming forward or telling on him would lead some to feel she was involved in some way too.

The saw has always been compelling to me, however may not be connected at all,people do own saw zalls just like that ,or even as you say who is to say they could tell what saw made those markings.

Just getting back into this after learning of the pending appeal, which for me is exciting hence I never thought MM was guilty at all.

[Len]

Thats a damning mountain of circumstantial evidence to try to ignore


Ok, but you ignore the most important fact of all. The victim's blood was tested for the metabolites of CH and it was negative. Let me repeat, negative.

Interpretation: CH was not used in the murder. As simple as that.

[Jack&Jill]

Samething could be said about the Not Guiltys, don't you think?


No , not at all , don't you get it ? We clearly have a reason for out interest and debates, if the G'S are so certain the murderer has been caught ,convicted and where she need be ,then they should be happy and have long moved on , however MM is still in prison and thus clearly accounts for our continued interest. Surely you do get this,it just jumps out at you.

[Dtviewer3]

I beg your pardon my fellow posters. Miller said it was not his signature the way MM signed his prescriptions. You trying to lie and make it so, will not change the testimony at the trial.

Nope, not true. I have already posted that Dr Miller said he recognized the handwriting on the script as Melanies, but did not recognize the signature. You can refer to my post if you need.

I agree that if the other posters were convinced the evidence was secure that they would have dropped this case a long time ago. It appears that they are waiting for the shoe to drop.


I didnt know I need the 'not guilties' posters blessings' to tell me what cases i should be interested in and why. Thanks for letting me know.
Big D


Above.........

[4Life]

No , not at all , don't you get it ? We clearly have a reason for out interest and debates, if the G'S are so certain the murderer has been caught ,convicted and where she need be ,then they should be happy and have long moved on , however MM is still in prison and thus clearly accounts for our continued interest. Surely you do get this,it just jumps out at you.

Maybe we want to make sure the facts are posted and no lies are told!

[Dtviewer3]

Are there any play sets for children that are made from PVC materials, such as some lawn furniture are?

IF perhaps BM was involved and was given the proffer and he would be forever safe from conviction,

Where are you getting this nonsense? A proffer has nothing to do with making someone safe from conviction. Zero.

it would be difficult for MM to ever voice this hence even her knowing what BM did--snipped---.

What a ridiculous post...........

[Jack&Jill]

Ok, but you ignore the most important fact of all. The victim's blood was tested for the metabolites of CH and it was negative. Let me repeat, negative.

Interpretation: CH was not used in the murder. As simple as that.

Lets not forget too that 4 bullets were used. YET nothing lodged ,dodged or stuck in anything and only a couple of bullets recovered. In what town house could this have happened as it surely was not the Mcguires! Unless theie walls were bullet proof! But then still there would be slugs.

And as you say no metabolites found , even if the drug tested negative because of a time lapse some metabolite from that drug should have been picked up by toxicology.


How is it that she could lure MM from the TH , leave the kids alone take him some where , shoot him 4 times , dismember his body,stuff him in suitcases without leaving ANY DNA, or other in the CAR.


Come on right !

[4Life]

I beg your pardon my fellow posters. Miller said it was not his signature the way MM signed his prescriptions. You trying to lie and make it so, will not change the testimony at the trial.


Sorry BD, but not according to the transcript that the other poster posted

[BigDude]

When was the Ch prescription found at the Walgreen's? I thought the Glatt book said it was quite late, which is hard to understand because the LE had the home computer and knew it was searched for. So what took so long to find the prescription? I wonder if there was a way that the prescription was planted at that Walgreen's? Just thinking outside the box.
Big D

[Len]

What a ridiculous post...........

That is not the best way to argue I am afraid....By the way you did not respond to my post above.

[Dtviewer3]

Ok, but you ignore the most important fact of all. The victim's blood was tested for the metabolites of CH and it was negative. Let me repeat, negative.

Interpretation: CH was not used in the murder. As simple as that.

YOU are ignoring the absolute most important FACT of them all.

I never said the CH was used in the murder. Never.

My whole post was that the evidence suggests that Melanie aquired the CH.

(please read a little more carefully Len:wink:)

[Jack&Jill]

What a ridiculous post...........


Okay your opinion matters too, as does mine as ridiculous as it may seem.

[4Life]

Are there any play sets for children that are made from PVC materials, such as some lawn furniture are?

IF perhaps BM was involved and was given the proffer and he would be forever safe from conviction,it would be difficult for MM to ever voice this hence even her knowing what BM did to her husband and not coming forward or telling on him would lead some to feel she was involved in some way too.

The saw has always been compelling to me, however may not be connected at all,people do own saw zalls just like that ,or even as you say who is to say they could tell what saw made those markings.

Just getting back into this after learning of the pending appeal, which for me is exciting hence I never thought MM was guilty at all.

A proffer doesnt save anyone from conviction of a murder

[Len]

Lets not forget too that 4 bullets were used. YET nothing lodged ,dodged or stuck in anything and only a couple of bullets recovered. In what town house could this have happened as it surely was not the Mcguires! Unless theie walls were bullet proof! But then still there would be slugs.

And as you say no metabolites found , even if the drug tested negative because of a time lapse some metabolite from that drug should have been picked up by toxicology.


How is it that she could lure MM from the TH , leave the kids alone take him some where , shoot him 4 times , dismember his body,stuff him in suitcases without leaving ANY DNA, or other in the CAR.


Come on right !



Exactly. The evidence in the case is simply inconsistent with MM killing WM in the apartment. It is also completely inconsistent with the CH having anything to do with the murder.

[Jack&Jill]

YOU are ignoring the absolute most important FACT of them all.

I never said the CH was used in the murder. Never.

My whole post was that the evidence suggests that Melanie aquired the CH.

(please read a little more carefully Len:wink:)

This is obviously nothing more then a game for you . Why are you debating the CH at all then? If it has nothing to do with it IYO , why try to argue with a poster ?

[4Life]

When was the Ch prescription found at the Walgreen's? I thought the Glatt book said it was quite late, which is hard to understand because the LE had the home computer and knew it was searched for. So what took so long to find the prescription? I wonder if there was a way that the prescription was planted at that Walgreen's? Just thinking outside the box.
Big D

I dont think they found it until after the vial was found in his car

[Dtviewer3]

Okay your opinion matters too, as does mine as ridiculous as it may seem.

My post wasnt my opinion.

It was a fact.

Dr Miller was never offered any kind of deal in relation to the murder of Wm mcGuire.

[4Life]

Good night, have fun. We will all see what happens on the 8th. The State has 30 days to answer the appeal and after that who knows how long it will be before the courts decide on it

[Dtviewer3]

This is obviously nothing more then a game for you . Why are you debating the CH at all then? If it has nothing to do with it IYO , why try to argue with a poster ?

I didnt say the CH was or wasnt used.

I am saying that the evidence suggests Melanie acquired the CH.

[Jack&Jill]

YOU are ignoring the absolute most important FACT of them all.

I never said the CH was used in the murder. Never.

My whole post was that the evidence suggests that Melanie aquired the CH.

(please read a little more carefully Len:wink:)

What I should have added to my prior post in response to you was, what role or point is trying to be made about the CH then, what do you think she EVER did with it and if nothing to do with the murder ,what does it matter?

[Len]

YOU are ignoring the absolute most important FACT of them all.

I never said the CH was used in the murder. Never.

My whole post was that the evidence suggests that Melanie aquired the CH.

(please read a little more carefully Len:wink:)



Either her or someone else working in that clinic who may be unrelated to the crime.

So, I take it that you agree then that CH was not used in the murder. Meaning that you disagree with the prosecution's theory, but you still believe she is guilty.

The problem is that the extremely far-fetched scenario of the prosecution is probably the only theoretically possible scenario in which MM physically killed the victim. The timeline and sequence of events makes other scenarios essentially impossible.

[annalyzer]

I have to wonder why is it so compelling that some worry about an appeal ,if its so certain the real murderer is where she belongs. It is obvious why those of us who feel she is innocent have interest, yet the reciprocal of that does not add up for me.


I doubt anyone is worried about it. her appeal is standard practice.

[Dtviewer3]

Either her or someone else working in that clinic who may be unrelated to the crime.

So, I take it that you agree then that CH was not used in the murder. Meaning that you disagree with the prosecution's theory, but you still believe she is guilty.

The problem is that the extremely far-fetched scenario of the prosecution is probably the only theoretically possible scenario in which MM physically killed the victim. The timeline and sequence of events makes other scenarios essentially impossible.

I dont know if Melanie tried to use the CH as some sort of 'prop', or if she planned to use it and then decided not to.
Only MM knows that.

Even if the CH wasnt used, Mel could heve shot WM while he slept, or maybe after he drank to much.

All plausable scenarios............

(BTW, the timeline certainly doesnt preclude other possibilities involving melanie.)

We will never know every exact fact.

[annalyzer]

Maybe we want to make sure the facts are posted and no lies are told!

Even OJ has his followers.

[Jack&Jill]

I doubt anyone is worried about it. her appeal is standard practice.


Specifically there are a few that are worried.They are not necessarily jumping right out at you though, or maybe they are LMAO. Maybe they have good reason to be, what do I know?

I'm just excited that the appeal is around the corner and hoping for at least a new trial if NOT some breaking news !

[annalyzer]

I dont know if Melanie tried to use the CH as some sort of 'prop', or if she planned to use it and then decided not to.
Only MM knows that.

Even if the CH wasnt used, Mel could heve shot WM while he slept, or maybe after he drank to much.

All plausable scenarios............

(BTW, the timeline certainly doesnt preclude other possibilities involving melanie.)

We will never know every exact fact.

Was it absolutely proven that Bill wasn't given the drug? I can't find that testimony yet. I thought the body was too decomposed to make a determination.

[Dtviewer3]

Specifically there are a few that are worried.They are not necessarily jumping right out at you though, or maybe they are LMAO. Maybe they have good reason to be, what do I know?

I'm just excited that the appeal is around the corner and hoping for at least a new trial if NOT some breaking news !

And I am just as happy to know that melanie will never live another day outside of prison.

[Jack&Jill]

I had read some where the time is usually 8 months for a criminal appeal but a lot longer for one that involves murder. It all depends on the case, how many appeals are ahead of Ms Mcguires. Some states will decide on appeal according to the appeallant’s release date, cases with a shorter sentence are generally dealt with more quickly than cases with longer sentences


OR depending on the compelling evidence warranting the appeal may be rather quick and to the point ? WHO is to say , its all a slow process,which saddens me!

[Len]

Even if the CH wasnt used, Mel could heve shot WM while he slept, or maybe after he drank to much.


(BTW, the timeline certainly doesnt preclude other possibilities involving melanie.)



No, not really for both. Dont forget that the prosecutions' theory involves using a pillow as a silencer. If she had done that with him not sedated, it would be possible that he would wake up and stop her. She would not want to take such a risk I assume...

As for other possibilities, they are totally impossible if the murder happened outisde the TH. She could have not done it herself, unless it was murder-for hire. But if she had hired someone else, LE would have found that after such a detailed investigation.

[annalyzer]

Specifically there are a few that are worried.They are not necessarily jumping right out at you though, or maybe they are LMAO. Maybe they have good reason to be, what do I know?

I'm just excited that the appeal is around the corner and hoping for at least a new trial if NOT some breaking news !


Well see that is where I have a problem. Wasting taxpayer's money. Unless of course some new compelling evidence is brought forth. I wouldn't hold my breath. I look forward to Monday.

[Len]

It was never proven. The body was too decomposed and too late to find any traces of CH according to the ME

They tested because they thought it could be detectable. Otherwise there was no point in testing. Also, if you do some search you will see that the metabolites of CH (that they can check for) last for days. If it was there it should have been detectable (at least traces). There was no expert witness from the defense to argue that.

[Dtviewer3]

No, not really for both. Dont forget that the prosecutions' theory involves using a pillow as a silencer. If she had done that with him not sedated, it would be possible that he would wake up and stop her. She would not want to take such a risk I assume...

You assume? Good grief. People shoot others to death everday without sedating them. I hope you have a more compelling argument than 'I assume'. I think its very possible he could have been shot while he slept.

As for other possibilities, they are totally impossible if the murder happened outisde the TH.

Not true. Maybe she lured him somewhere else and shot him? You cant know that for certain. I believe he was killed in the TH though.

She could have not done it herself, unless it was murder-for hire.

I dont think that is the case
But if she had hired someone else,
Nope
LE would have found that after such a detailed investigation.

Above............

[annalyzer]

Hey did anyone answer my question? Is her former defense attorney , Tacopina, still standing behind her?

[Dtviewer3]

Hey did anyone answer my question? Is her former defense attorney , Tacopina, still standing behind her?

he's not representing her in the appeal.

[annalyzer]

Above............


I believe the reason Bill was cut up in pieces was so that petite mel could move him by herself. I think if anything her stepfather or others helped cover for her after the fact.

[Dtviewer3]

I believe the reason Bill was cut up in pieces was so that petite mel could move him by herself. I think if anything her stepfather or others helped cover for her after the fact.

I think the stepfather may have helped her dump the body.

[annalyzer]

he's not representing her in the appeal.


I know I read somewhere that his partner, who was there at the trial, visited mel in prison for some reason or other. Didn't see when it was tho.

[Len]

Hey did anyone answer my question? Is her former defense attorney , Tacopina, still standing behind her?

Steven Turano is and there was a very recent article that he was talking about her. He was representing her together with JT. But for the appeal she has to use different lawyers and Baker Botts has taken her case pro-bono.

[Dtviewer3]

From what I have heard, Tacopina has moved on. It seems it is just Kilberg from Baker and Botts, S. Turano and the public defender. I think the public defender will be the main person representing her.

After Tacopina swam away from the Titanic he decided to walk home instead of hoping a ride on the Hindenburg..............

[Len]

I think the stepfather may have helped her dump the body.

There is zero evidence for this. Only wild speculation without any basis.

[Dtviewer3]

There is zero evidence for this. Only wild speculation without any basis.

Actually the ez-pass info from the day the bodies are believed to be dumped suggest this is a possibility.

But I will say that there isnt any hard evidence that that is what happened.

[annalyzer]

After Tacopina swam away from the Titanic he decided to walk home instead of hoping a ride on the Hindenburg..............

lol Since this appeal has come up I've been reading a lot of news items I've been searching for to straighten out the facts. In one Tacopina said something like he will stand by Melanie all the way to her appeal. :laugh:

[Dtviewer3]

lol Since this appeal has come up I've been reading a lot of news items I've been searching for to straighten out the facts. In one Tacopina said something like he will stand by Melanie all the way to her appeal. :laugh:

I dont think I've ever heard a lawyer say otherwise!!!

[Topaz]

I also think the appeal will fail.

And I come here out of curiosity, because I follow many trials for the same reason. The Entwhisle trial was also extremely fascinating and very very sad.

I also find the speculations here fascinating.

For example: The Walgreen's on the computer and next to the day care was a 24hr store. Being in that profession myself, I have helped many many people find unusual medications. Drug stores do not carry everything you know. Some patients will wait for a store to ORDER an item, but others are IN A HURRY (like MM who bought that gun pretty close to the crime line). 24 hr pharmacies are often in locations that are very busy. It is not unusual for a 24 hr pharmacy to fill 400 RXs a day or more. These large volume stores often have a much larger corresponding inventory. Hence more likely to have a rare item like chloral hydrate liquid. So this is what may have happened. MM took the RX to a store she never had patronized so the staff would not recognize her (forged RX and all). She discovered the CH was not easily available. Went home, and started looking up other places. She may have been given the suggestion to "try that Walgreen's". So she looked up their # on the computer and called them. She may have even forgotton she did that, if she used the computer to find other merchandise that way. Bingo, that store had the CH and was close to where she would be. End of story.
Try yourself... call your area pharmacies and see how many have CH in stock right now. Another unusual item: Thalidomide... see if you can find this one! Remember, unusual items more often can be found in 24 hr stores, or stores with long waits, that do huge numbers of RXs a day.
So that Walgreen's choice can simply be explained if you understand the mechanics of finding an unusual drug.

WM's body was never tested for chloral hydrate. That was stated on the TV shows. Cause of death was obvious, so elaborate toxic screening beyond the typical recreational benzos and opiates and cocaine was not performed. The elaborate toxicology tests are only done when cause of death cannot be determined. Watch Dr. G on Discovery for example.
There are "levels" of tests... like there are levels of urine screens for your job. (they cost alot of money and may have to be sent out)

I think the projection here by MM fans is misplaced when interest in this case comes up with new media coverage, like the book, and now like this thread for the appeal. The claim that some posters here FEAR that MM will get off, is somewhat a projection of the fans' own fears.
I for one find all of the MM situation basically very fascinating. Many of us watch TruTV (and the old CTV) and read Anne Rule's books, etc because of the curiosity factor. I watch most of the trials that involve medical angles, or a extreme freak factor. I couldn't handle John Couey tho... but I did watch the defense PET scan expert but the rest was too disgusting for me. Entwhistle was in that category somewhat, but less so. His reactions to the crime video of his own family were something I'll NEVER forget. I'd hate to see either of THEM roaming around free doing those things again! That is different from the "fear" the MM fans accuse some of us of.

[bugsy]

I have to disagree with you. What about the luggage? It belonged to Ms Mcguire
The razor stubble on the tape belonged to both Mcguires
The blankets, RMA used those at one time, they had not for a time.
The bags matched according to the States expert witness. The defense called in Ms Ginter as their expert witness on the bags, the only problem with her saying the bags did not match- She never got to examine or test the bags, she only came to her conclusion from notes she had been given. The very next day she did a live interview on Court TV,phone interview, where she admitted to not being able to examine the bags or do any testing of her own. She also said she made some mathematiical errors.

Just to clarify, the bags belonged to both the McGuires, not only MM. WM could have very well left with them.

[bugsy]

Above......

While I've seen nothing that suggests to me that Miller was involved, I did find it strange that the state wouldn't have had their "bone expert", or "saw expert", or whatever you want to call him examine Miller's Saw after they became aware of it.

It was the only saw owned by anyone involved that matched the class characteristics of the tool used to cut up the remains.

It just seems as another example to me that the state was only interested in possible information that could be used against MM. If it involved someone else, they ignored it.

Do you think if the state found a similar saw at either MM or her parents house, they would have ignored it? Or would they have tested it, and compared it to the tool marks on the bone?

[kellabeck]

Just to clarify, the bags belonged to both the McGuires, not only MM. WM could have very well left with them.

No, he couldn't. He was already dead. And we know that from the facts. He never returned the early evening phone call to his friend-- totally unlike him. And his cell phone was never used again.

Plus his car had evidence of his skin on the floorboard, consistent with its coming from his dismemberment. And we know that Melanie confessed to having moved the car.

Face it, MM fans. The evidence supports guilt and that's why this killer was convicted.

[Len]

WM's body was never tested for chloral hydrate. That was stated on the TV shows. Cause of death was obvious, so elaborate toxic screening beyond the typical recreational benzos and opiates and cocaine was not performed.



You are very wrong on that. What you wrote above is correct for the first set of screens done in Virginia. When the case moved to NJ (and after they had found the vial with CH in the car), they tested in NJ for CH and its metabolites and the results were negative. During the trial PP asked the state toxicologist to explain what is "volatility" of different substances and how that could explain the negative test. The argument was that the test was negative because the volatility of CH was high and no longer detectable. That argument never made much sense to me (and it was what made me to start questioning the prosecution's theory), and I had looked and found that the volatility of CH is less than alcohol (that was trace positive in the VA screen). I also remember clearly that PP had asked the toxicologist what is the half-life of CH and he had said 4-5 min or something, but there was no follow up question regarding its metabolites that last for days. And the defense never brought that up.

Anyway, there was a test done in NJ and it was negative. The prosecution had argued that it was "too late" to detect it by then, but the defense never brought an expert to counter that argument.

[Great Dane]

Odd that the script was picked up not far from the childrens day care center, in fact you can see the day care center from the pharmacy

I wonder if LE checked whether or not MM had ever had a script filled before the day the CH was picked up? It may give some doubt to the google searches, proving that she didn't need to google it, that it might have been someone else...even if she had went into the store and purchased maxi-pads at one point, it would take away the reasoning of her needing to have googled the walgreens at all

[Topaz]

My recollection was that the original autopsy did not test for CH.
That was in Virginia. I recall the Virginia tech saying this on camera. WM was not sent to NJ until after he was identified and juristiction was turned over to NJ. (about a month passed during this time from estimated time of death).

When NJ realized that a complex crime was involved in the this death,
they tried to find the CH and it was "too late"... and MM cremated the body as soon as she got possession. I recall the testimony from the expert that samples were "lost" or not taken.
This is a complex drug, and it WAS searched on her computer, and she knew exactly what it would be like to find --- along with the searches for "undetectable" poisons. MM didn't just pluck the CH out of thin air.
In fact she is young enough to not have had training in this drug, which maybe 20+ yrs ago might have been mentioned in her nursing training.

Back when I trained, there were no benzos, or Dalmane, or Ambien. Chloral Hydrate was commonly used and so were barbiturates. (we are talking late 60's and early 70's.) Now that other sedatives are used more safely, chloral hydrate is pretty rare. Even for sedating kids, dentists use Versed (not really common) or Vistaril (the now preferred means). Hospitals still used chloral hydrate sometimes for pre-op....my son had it 22 yrs ago when he had ENT procedure/anesthesia. I don't know how common it is too though for hospital use. In long term care we didn't use it (rehab and nursing homes) either.

[Great Dane]

Don't forget they had access to RMA's patient file.

Or they just knew Tiffany Bain, knew she was going to the fertility clinic...

[Len]

My recollection was that the original autopsy did not test for CH.
That was in Virginia. I recall the Virginia tech saying this on camera. WM was not sent to NJ until after he was identified and juristiction was turned over to NJ. (about a month passed during this time from estimated time of death).

When NJ realized that a complex crime was involved in the this death,
they tried to find the CH and it was "too late"... and MM cremated the body as soon as she got possession. I recall the testimony from the expert that samples were "lost" or not taken.


Wrong. It is correct that they did not test for CH first in VA, they only did the basic toxicology screen. When the case moved to NJ and they realized that it was a complex crime and there was CH in the car, the toxicologists in NJ still had the body available at that time and they did test it for CH and was negative. That is why in the trial PP was asking questions about volatility, arguing that the body was tested too late (again that never made sense to me and there was no expert from the defense to counter-argue). Anyway, the NJ authorities also wanted to get and test the original blood samples from Virginia for CH, but they could not as the authorities in VA had not kept them after the initial simple toxicology screen.

There is no evidence for the use of CH as part of the murder plan. Only a hypothesis without anything serious to back it up. But it was a critical element in the prosecution's scenario.

[Topaz]

Len, if your logic were adhered to, very few people would ever get convicted. Much evidence is not 100% ever.

Eye witness testimony (which some jurors seem to want) is often very
unreliable.

This is why prosecutors need many forms and types of evidence.
Time lines that place a person in a place, where fingerprints are found for example. One could argue that the prints came from a prior time period.

When many pieces corroborate each other, that solidifies the whole evidence process.

Even confessions are potentially unrealiable these days, unless there is video!

I think playing devil's advocate like you do here, Len, does stimulate discussion. But it will not necessarily be pertinent to an appeal or other legal process IMO. In the end, the criminal justice system will work within its guidelines like it always does. Just like in the medico-legal arena, "standard of care" is arbitrary, and may change and have little validity at times.

It is like my husband says often (he is an attorney)...you can sue or appeal anytime you want. WINNING is another thing all together!
Even now as I type this, Vioxx -- which has been attributed to over 100,000 deaths --is winning some suits. Even with the evidence that Merck concealed its dangers from doctors and the public.

[Great Dane]

While I've seen nothing that suggests to me that Miller was involved, I did find it strange that the state wouldn't have had their "bone expert", or "saw expert", or whatever you want to call him examine Miller's Saw after they became aware of it.

It was the only saw owned by anyone involved that matched the class characteristics of the tool used to cut up the remains.

It just seems as another example to me that the state was only interested in possible information that could be used against MM. If it involved someone else, they ignored it.

Do you think if the state found a similar saw at either MM or her parents house, they would have ignored it? Or would they have tested it, and compared it to the tool marks on the bone?

Brad had out of town guests staying at his home, he was very cooperative with the police, aside from the fact that he was having an affair with WM's wife, I don't think they had anything else to go on.....which is why I never understood his eagerness to help the police, and sign a proffer to save himself....it's one thing to want to help, to even inadvertantly feel like what you are doing might have potentially helped MM...it's another thing to be 100% innocent and have the fear, or the threats from the police make you feel like if you didn't sign the proffer you too may be in jail, for life....based on a saw you had purchased/used to do something at some other point in time???

Am I worng, or does anyone else think that Brad and Finn were afriad if they didn't cooperate they too would be in jail?

[4Life]

Just to clarify, the bags belonged to both the McGuires, not only MM. WM could have very well left with them. Really? How could he have left with them? He was already dead. MM and WM were in his car that day together, came home and watched TV in the living room when they fell asleep. According to MM they woke up and that is when the fight started. MM said the luggage was in the storage unit. MM had the key. MM gave the key to her stepfather so he and others can move stuff into the unit for her. The police had to call the stepfather to come down to the storage unit place so he can open the unit.
So let's think: According to MM the luggage was in the storage unit, she had the key, then the stepfather had the key, WM body was found in the luggage. Hmmm

[4Life]

Or they just knew Tiffany Bain, knew she was going to the fertility clinic... And they just happen to have a script pad from RMA? Use the Walgreens near the childrens school?