Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

[forensicfan]

This is ridiculous! First of all, I wonder who the hell had the audacity to call and report these people for praying in their home and since when is that taxable???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html?test=latestnews

[incidentally]

Wow. That's just plain bizarre. There must be more to this story then being reported because it makes absolutely no sense.

[Details]

Yep - always look for the rest of the story. Once in awhile there isn't one - but almost always there is.

Other times, it's one burocrat following rules to the letter without common sense, one person with a grudge.

This one sounds real - the 10 News article has nothing that explains it. 15 people once a week - the one issue I could see is if it were one of those streets with almost no parking - I used to live a place where 10 extra cars would absolutely ruin the street for parking. Or - maybe it's more than that - do they run a major collection plate, and more religious business(printing and distributing material) from the home? Or is it noisy - bells and loud music?

We'll see - but there's almost always more to the story - when you have only one side of it, you've never got the whole thing. I'm sure they've put in only what makes them sound good, and nothing else. Maybe it's at least 15, but more often 50 - for instance.


My husband recently got the latest outrageous story from his brother - the power company sued to stop a person from having a wind power generator, since it stopped them from buying power from the power company - an example of how evil those power companies are. He smelled a slanted story, researched - found out that the neighbors sued to have the windmill removed, not the power company - because it was HUGE, noisy, all around nothing you would ever wish to live nearby.

[Details]

I would hope so, this is really bizarre, was it a muslim bible study or christian, not that it matters, just trying to think why anyone would do thisI'd like to hear from a neighbor or so. That'd be a start. Often the government has all kinds of legal issues that stop them from giving the other side. A neighbor may not be unbiased, but at least it'd be the other side.

Could be there is no other side - some low level rule-bound clerk filing papers without regard for proportion. But this story is barely out, only one side, and only from one news agency. We'll see what the story is when more comes out.

[penguin01]

I would hope so, this is really bizarre, was it a Muslim bible study or christian, not that it matters, just trying to think why anyone would do this
bible = christian. Are you really unaware that Muslims do not use the bible? Or were you thinking bible strudy was just a phrase they used loosely meaning "some kinda religious meeting"..... don't care which kind, LOL
Its really bizarre either way. Isn't there something in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights about the "right to congregate". (Canadian here; I know you have it written - forget where). Really there must be more than we presently understand to this story.

[penguin01]

[QUOTE=jamesb68;13148514]both muslims and christians have bible studies

http://www.gotquestions.org/Muslim-WJD1.html

but regardless it should not matter and yes, the law has no place here.(quote)


Your are right: the law has no place. but selling bible study to muslims instead of the Koran or along with the Koran - (or the Qu'uran?)? I'll bet the Mullah's are all over that! NOT! And then there is "Jews for Jesus" who also have bible study - much to the absolute horror of actual practicing Jews! barf
You won't find bible study in the average Synagogue any more than you find bible study in your average Mosque. Actaual Muslims and Jews do not tend to have bible study as a part of their religion. That is a fantasy of Christians.

[penguin01]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_muslim_bible

"The muslim bible is the holy Al-Qur'an"
and the jewish bible is the Talmud. But LE said they were studying the "Bible" not the Qu-uran or the Talmud..... which members of those religions do not confuse with the Bible.

Or are you saying that LE really meant the Pastor (is he not Christian?) and his friends were studing some kind of religious book and we don't know the name of it so we are just calling it the Bible for ease and (lack of) clarity. OR fun and profit.

[Deb7]

and the jewish bible is the Talmud. But LE said they were studying the "Bible" not the Qu-uran or the Talmud..... which members of those religions do not confuse with the Bible.

Or are you saying that LE really meant the Pastor (is he not Christian?) and his friends were studing some kind of religious book and we don't know the name of it so we are just calling it the Bible for ease and (lack of) clarity. OR fun and profit.


I don't mean to argue with you or start an argument, but a bible is the writings of any religion.
Here is a definition (item "d")
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Bible

Many people hold "bible" study, and don't actually use The Bible.

Details, what a great post. I am sure like you and Tally both said, there has to be more to this story.


JMO

[doctor_J]

Hard for me to understand why any journalist would submit a story like this and not present some comments from the neighbors or the county representatives. Seems too biased right off the bat, meant to inflame emotions.

My next door neighbors have 1 parking spot. Every major holiday the family congegates and the parking is on the street, including parking about 3 feet onto my lawn and using my driveway, which holds 6 cars. They've had my permission to do that for 15 years. The whole neighborhood has to carefully navigate thru a narrow opening that's left of the residential street. I'm OK with it because they're great neighbors but if it went down weekly, I would be more than a little distressed.

I agree with others, there's more to this story.

[Xainia]

Here is another article (http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Jun09/Art_Jun09_02.html)

I am guessing the amount of people who attend is the issue.

from five to 27 people, but averages 15.

[aproudmom]

Wow. That's just plain bizarre. There must be more to this story then being reported because it makes absolutely no sense.

I agree this is very odd has to be more to it

[Stella]

Jehovah's Witnesses have Bible studies in their homes regularly.

I would like to know what religion these people are.

[crocdog1]

and the jewish bible is the Talmud. But LE said they were studying the "Bible" not the Qu-uran or the Talmud..... which members of those religions do not confuse with the Bible.

Or are you saying that LE really meant the Pastor (is he not Christian?) and his friends were studing some kind of religious book and we don't know the name of it so we are just calling it the Bible for ease and (lack of) clarity. OR fun and profit.

I just checked to make double sure I got this right.

My BIBLE has both the Old and the New Testament. Last I heard, the Old Testament was of the Jewish faith. This includes the Psalms and, of course Genesis, which many Christians want to be taught as an alternative to Evolution.

[crocdog1]

Hard for me to understand why any journalist would submit a story like this and not present some comments from the neighbors or the county representatives. Seems too biased right off the bat, meant to inflame emotions.

My next door neighbors have 1 parking spot. Every major holiday the family congegates and the parking is on the street, including parking about 3 feet onto my lawn and using my driveway, which holds 6 cars. They've had my permission to do that for 15 years. The whole neighborhood has to carefully navigate thru a narrow opening that's left of the residential street. I'm OK with it because they're great neighbors but if it went down weekly, I would be more than a little distressed.

I agree with others, there's more to this story.

How would you like to have 15 to 27 people park next door to you every week? Think of the parking nightmare for the neighbors.

I guess THE GOLDEN RULE (Matthew 7:12) does not apply to this Bible Study Group.

Just My Humble Opinion

[JD1974]

How would you like to have 15 to 27 people park next door to you every week? Think of the parking nightmare for the neighbors.

I guess THE GOLDEN RULE (Matthew 7:12) does not apply to this Bible Study Group.

Just My Humble Opinion


So how will the parking situation change if these people get a permit? The bible study would still be in the same place...

[penguin01]

I don't mean to argue with you or start an argument, but a bible is the writings of any religion.
Here is a definition (item "d")
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Bible

Many people hold "bible" study, and don't actually use The Bible.

Details, what a great post. I am sure like you and Tally both said, there has to be more to this story.


JMO
OK - my point was when the reporter uses the word "Bible" - with a capitol B (NOT lower case word bible used as a generality) and mentions the "Pastor" holding the study group, and also mentions Good Friday (to wring more outrage out of fellow Christians, perhaps). I think it was sufficiently clear that they are not talking about Jews or Muslims in the article linked. That is what I was saying in reponse to a poster's question about what religion they were. I used the lower case b becasue the poster did so - perhaps that is the confusion. Mea Culpa.
If its not clear enough for you even now -I'm sure you can write the paper and let them know you need more clues as to the "Who" (was studying) and "What" (exactly what book) so we can move on and get more information about the "Why". (Did you catch the Where and When?) Sheesh!
SO - I'm sure there is more to the story - and I'll bet the number of people, noise, parking, etc. have more to do with it than what religion they were.

[playnice]

Wow. Doesnt matter what religion. If it were devil worshipers and they werent offering up live sacrifices or causing any trouble it shouldnt matter. Hopefully there is more to the story.
Id hate to think they can come in your home and tell you that you cant study the bible. What difference does it make if you have 10 people for a tupperware party or bible study in your own home.

[crocdog1]

Wow. Doesnt matter what religion. If it were devil worshipers and they werent offering up live sacrifices or causing any trouble it shouldnt matter. Hopefully there is more to the story.
Id hate to think they can come in your home and tell you that you cant study the bible. What difference does it make if you have 10 people for a tupperware party or bible study in your own home.

How many times a month do people have a tupperware party?

How many times a month do you have big parties that might disturb your neighbors.

Of course, if some people really don't care if they disrupt their neighbors on a weekly basis, I can understand why there are those who say the government is interfering with a person's right to study the Bible in their home.

Like everyone else, I believe there must be much more to this story. However, I certainly don't believe the government was the one who filed a complaint on these people because they were studying the Bible. It had to have originated from someone in the neighborhood.

[Details]

So how will the parking situation change if these people get a permit? The bible study would still be in the same place...The parking situation won't change - but a permit means some checking will be done for if there is enough space, usually. They may not be eligible for a permit if space is too tight, if it's just plain an inappropriate place for that much activity.

There are some things you cannot do with your house - garage sales, for example, most places have a limit on the number you may have, to prevent a weekly garage sale from clogging up the neighborhood. And most garage sales won't get any average 15 people at a time, ever.

[FurthurBB]

and the jewish bible is the Talmud. But LE said they were studying the "Bible" not the Qu-uran or the Talmud..... which members of those religions do not confuse with the Bible.

Or are you saying that LE really meant the Pastor (is he not Christian?) and his friends were studing some kind of religious book and we don't know the name of it so we are just calling it the Bible for ease and (lack of) clarity. OR fun and profit.

The Talmud is the book of Rabbinic law and commentary, the Torah or the Tanakh are the holy scriptures. Not to be picky, but, my upbringing demands I correct you. IMO

[lunchlady]

Hmmm..... I bet it will turn out that the "bible study" was more like a church service, and they were taking money for some reason or another.

"Bible study" makes it sound like a small group quietly discussing some verses, like a book discussion group.
If it was truly that informal then this couple doesn't need to get a permit IMO, but if they were taking money and/or trying to form a congregation and/or preaching then they need to start getting papered up for their non-profit status and required permits.
There's a lotta wannabe or small-time preachers out there, and each of them needs money to get/keep a building and to quit their normal job. The laws governing religious institutions are there to help hucksters from using religion to line their pockets and to help the IRS to monitor how much money is flowing through religious institutions tax-free.

[Cooper]

I'd like to hear from a neighbor or so. That'd be a start. Often the government has all kinds of legal issues that stop them from giving the other side. A neighbor may not be unbiased, but at least it'd be the other side.

Could be there is no other side - some low level rule-bound clerk filing papers without regard for proportion. But this story is barely out, only one side, and only from one news agency. We'll see what the story is when more comes out.


I can't wait to see what eventually comes out.

My first thought was that maybe it was a very large group of people that perhaps took all of the parking and the neighbors complained.

However, if it's 15 or so, that could even be a dinner party rather than a bible study!

People can have visitors in their own home.

[Cooper]

and the jewish bible is the Talmud.


Uh, no. The Hebrew bible is the Tanakah, not the Talmud nor the "Old Testament." It includes the Torah, Prophets and Writings.


The Talmud is a collection of rabbinic writings on Jewish law and tradition.

And yes, Jews study both.

[Cooper]

bible = christian.


Are you really unaware that the "bible" does not "= Christian?"

I am not a Christian and I use my bible all of the time.

[Cooper]

The Talmud is the book of Rabbinic law and commentary, the Torah or the Tanakh are the holy scriptures. Not to be picky, but, my upbringing demands I correct you. IMO


Thank you. There is much misinformation being provided by this poster.

[Details]

I can't wait to see what eventually comes out.

My first thought was that maybe it was a very large group of people that perhaps took all of the parking and the neighbors complained.

However, if it's 15 or so, that could even be a dinner party rather than a bible study!

People can have visitors in their own home.15 is an average, so I'd expect some weeks it's nearly double. But if there was a dinner party every single week taking up all the parking, that'd be pretty annoying.

I'm wondering if we do get any followup - or if they're going to be very quiet. I figure there must be more to the story, or we would have heard from neighbors in support of the bible study, etc. - but nope, we've got a single source.

[Cooper]

15 is an average, so I'd expect some weeks it's nearly double. But if there was a dinner party every single week taking up all the parking, that'd be pretty annoying.

I'm wondering if we do get any followup - or if they're going to be very quiet. I figure there must be more to the story, or we would have heard from neighbors in support of the bible study, etc. - but nope, we've got a single source.


Annoying or not, one could have a dinner party weekly, have a bible study or play poker or bunco etc.

However, I think there is much more to this story.

[Brentwood]

Wow. Doesnt matter what religion. If it were devil worshipers and they werent offering up live sacrifices or causing any trouble it shouldnt matter. Hopefully there is more to the story.
Id hate to think they can come in your home and tell you that you cant study the bible. What difference does it make if you have 10 people for a tupperware party or bible study in your own home.

I agree, the type of gathering shouldn't matter. I was wondering, if maybe, since they live in a limited parking area (culdesac) and it is a weekly meeting of an organized group, there would be parking requirements.

The gatherings are 15-27 people (so they say. they could be fudging the numbers low)...How many extra cars would that put in the culdesac? Maybe 9-15(?) extra cars? Would all of those extra cars displace the neighbors normal parking places. I know it would really irritate me, if I was their neighbor and came home from work and didn't have a place to park.

So what I am getting at is, maybe they are just being asked to apply for a permit so they are evaluated to see if they comply with zoning and parking requirements for organized, regularly held meetings. Then if they do, they would pay the appropriate fees for the use of land-parking they are requiring.

Just a theory

[Adalena935]

I can't wait to see what eventually comes out.

My first thought was that maybe it was a very large group of people that perhaps took all of the parking and the neighbors complained.

However, if it's 15 or so, that could even be a dinner party rather than a bible study!

People can have visitors in their own home.

I honestly don't see (face value) how it's any different than a weekend family barbeque. Before you know it, families will be made to limit their numbers for get-togethers. I'm from a huge Catholic family. My sons married into huge Mexican families. Whew. don't ask. Won't be long some govt entity will have ordinances against family members enjoying one another's company when they have a day of rest.

[Adalena935]

If it's about public fire access, then how come the geek asked the wife; "Do you say amen?" Can't have it both ways. This link says the county's backed off. That this scenario is playing out nationwide and people need to understand their rights. Thing is, govt forces people to hire lawyers to defend them for the right to pray or barbeque in their own homes. outrageous. Besides the couple's been having the bible studies for 5 years. If it's such a huge parking problem, what's their motto; "Let's not rush into anything?"

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16149

[Adalena935]

Hmmm..... I bet it will turn out that the "bible study" was more like a church service, and they were taking money for some reason or another.

"Bible study" makes it sound like a small group quietly discussing some verses, like a book discussion group.
If it was truly that informal then this couple doesn't need to get a permit IMO, but if they were taking money and/or trying to form a congregation and/or preaching then they need to start getting papered up for their non-profit status and required permits.
There's a lotta wannabe or small-time preachers out there, and each of them needs money to get/keep a building and to quit their normal job. The laws governing religious institutions are there to help hucksters from using religion to line their pockets and to help the IRS to monitor how much money is flowing through religious institutions tax-free.

Since when are US citizens banned from donating to any charity or faith group of their choice? I have evangelical friends who are preachers, Jewish friends and I'm born again christian raised roman catholic. We each have always participated in one another's religious services and donated monies to one another's religious charities.

Did you notice that following Hurricane Katrina the first boots on the ground passing out food and water were the religious organizations? People would have starved to death waiting on the govt to decide to get our forced-tax-dollars in gear to help mother's with thirsty babies.

[KittyMom]

slowly the noose tightens...on our freedoms and the foundations of our country.

[lunchlady]

Since when are US citizens banned from donating to any charity or faith group of their choice? I have evangelical friends who are preachers, Jewish friends and I'm born again christian raised roman catholic. We each have always participated in one another's religious services and donated monies to one another's religious charities.

Did you notice that following Hurricane Katrina the first boots on the ground passing out food and water were the religious organizations? People would have starved to death waiting on the govt to decide to get our forced-tax-dollars in gear to help mother's with thirsty babies.

I donate to churches and religious charities also, in fact its the main charity I donate to most years. And it was certainly a shame that the government couldn't get aide more quickly to the stranded people in New Orleans.

My point was that a "Bible study" might not just be a Bible study, but rather a congregation in need of non-profit status and possibily also a building. I don't know this without more information, just putting out ideas as usual.

[Lynden1000]

Since when are US citizens banned from donating to any charity or faith group of their choice? I have evangelical friends who are preachers, Jewish friends and I'm born again christian raised roman catholic. We each have always participated in one another's religious services and donated monies to one another's religious charities.

Did you notice that following Hurricane Katrina the first boots on the ground passing out food and water were the religious organizations? People would have starved to death waiting on the govt to decide to get our forced-tax-dollars in gear to help mother's with thirsty babies.


Why are you snapping at people in here, especially when, by and large, it seems everyone agrees with you?

[Cooper]

Since when are US citizens banned from donating to any charity or faith group of their choice? I have evangelical friends who are preachers, Jewish friends and I'm born again christian raised roman catholic. We each have always participated in one another's religious services and donated monies to one another's religious charities.


Yes, I have done so as well. It's a good thing.

[Cooper]

Follow up:

www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/

"He says it all started with $220 in car damage."


washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/02/illegal-religious-gatherings/

[Details]

Sounds like it was a mixture of what we were theorizing - from the neighbor, 20 or 30 cars - definitely a nuisance, and when damage is done to another car, that's something that would make the neighbors not too happy with the situation. And combine that with someone who was maybe a bit overzealous in applying the rules.

[Cooper]

Sounds like it was a mixture of what we were theorizing - from the neighbor, 20 or 30 cars - definitely a nuisance, and when damage is done to another car, that's something that would make the neighbors not too happy with the situation. And combine that with someone who was maybe a bit overzealous in applying the rules.


Exactly. No need to get paranoid about religious freedom. It amazes me that those from religious traditions that most often have been the oppressors throughout history are the same ones that cry foul whenever given the slightest opportunity.

[Maranatha]

Exactly. No need to get paranoid about religious freedom. It amazes me that those from religious traditions that most often have been the oppressors throughout history are the same ones that cry foul whenever given the slightest opportunity.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller

Just came to mind. God bless.

[Cooper]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller

Just came to mind. God bless.



Thank you. Quoting this here is a great example of the paranoia I was talking about.

[Maranatha]

Thank you. Quoting this here is a great example of the paranoia I was talking about.

You're very welcome! :) But please, don't trouble yourself with thinking I'm paranoid.

Maybe I should quote Christ in how persecution begins and how He has been shown, and continues to be shown correct.

I have a friend, he's Iranian and now lives here in Seattle. He was tortured in an Iranian prison for reading a book (not the Bible) about Jesus.

There was no opportunity for him to get a permit.

God bless.

[Cooper]

You're very welcome! :) But please, don't trouble yourself with thinking I'm paranoid.

Maybe I should quote Christ in how persecution begins and how He has been shown, and continues to be shown correct.

I have a friend, he's Iranian and now lives here in Seattle. He was tortured in an Iranian prison for reading a book (not the Bible) about Jesus.

There was no opportunity for him to get a permit.

God bless.


As a non Christian, quotes from Jesus hold no meaning for me.

My people have been tortured and murdered in his name for centuries.

Note: We do not live in Iran.

Shalom.

[Maranatha]

As a non Christian, quotes from Jesus hold no meaning for me.

My people have been tortured and murdered in his name for centuries.

Note: We do not live in Iran.

Shalom.

Um, you're rather literal, to put it politely. Do you have understanding of history? You say you do.

So have my people.

What do you think our common God thinks of our discourse?

Don't answer, I'm finished with you. :)

God bless.

[Cooper]

Um, you're rather literal, to put it politely. Do you have understanding of history? You say you do.

So have my people.

What do you think our common God thinks of our discourse?

Don't answer, I'm finished with you. :)

God bless.


Yes, I understand history. I was a history major in college for quite some time.

Intellectual discourse has been difficult for you in the past and now the present, I see.

Let's just say I'm not shocked, to put it politely.

[Foxglove]

This is scary!! Is your home your castle or is it a Police State?

Whatever constitutes the gathering, there are no illegal practices involved but California is always instituting new legislature and religion isn't the only victim.

In some California areas, you can't smoke where you live:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/us/27belmont.html

I am not pro-smoking but as long as cigarettes are legal, this is an outrage, IMO.