May 26 - 31

[n/t]

Police chief says case is strong

"This is a strong case," Fraser said, "and it becomes stronger as time goes on and we do our jobs."

http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1583087

[n/t]

Police would be part of review

As an online petition to change the conditions for issuing AMBER Alerts gained momentum yesterday, the chief of the Oxford Community Police Service indicated a willingness to participate in a review of the system. In an interview with Sun Media, Chief Ron Fraser suggested that a review of this OPP-administered warning system might result in some improvements.

"Maybe the criteria should be looked at," Fraser said.


http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1583903


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[n/t]

Psychologists were back at her Woodstock school, Oliver Stephens, and expect to remain until year's end.

Dr. Sally Christensen, a Thames Valley school board psychologist, says coping strategies put in place during the last few weeks appear to be helping shaken pupils.

"Some of the kids who have had the most difficulty, we're starting to see them smiling again."

Tori's Grade 3 teacher, who is expecting a baby soon and left last week on maternity leave, is struggling, like many colleagues, with the tragedy.

It's no surprise school staff are devastated, Christensen says.

"They very much see (pupils) as their kids in a way. They feel a close attachment to them."

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/26/9570101-sun.html


:rose:

[n/t]

Meanwhile, a Toronto woman has started a petition to have the conditions of an Amber Alert changed and named it after Tori Stafford. More than 16,000 signatures have been signed for 'Tori's Law' which, if passed in the legislature, would require an Amber Alert to be issued if a guardian finds it out of character for the child to be missing for any length of time. A Toronto MPP has agreed to bring the petition forward to Queen's Park. When Victoria Stafford disappeared April 8, Oxford Community Police never issued an Amber Alert because they say the case didn't fit the description and it's the OPP that controls the Amber Alert.

http://cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16479


This is excellent news!

[n/t]

For those who haven't signed...please please do so. Thank you:wub:

Over 18,900 signatures.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

[n/t]

Break in case led to arrests: chief

Chief Ron Fraser declined to comment when asked if this break involved one of the suspects volunteering information to investigators. Fraser also declined comment when asked when investigators shifted their attention to Michael Rafferty, Tori's accused killer, and accomplice Terri-Lynne McClintic.


http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1584000

[Hope4Tori]

For those who haven't signed...please please do so. Thank you:wub:

Over 18,900 signatures.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

That's fantastic news as posted about the Toronto MPP bringing the petition to Queen's Park!

Good for you n/t and everyone for trying to make sure Tori is going to get justice in her name for all the other children who need it too!:wub:

I do so love T.O.! I'm off now . . . have a happy day everyone!


May Tori be reunited today with her loved ones!:wub:

[Maelstrom5]

Good morning all,

Over the weekend I read a few news reports and newspaper editorials that stated that the police did not falter in not issuing an Amber Alert in Tori’s case. They said there was no sighting of an abduction, and no information about a car or abductor, so it would not have been proper to issue an Amber Alert.

As it turns out an interesting counterpoint to those news editorials was taking place just over the boarder in Monroe, Michigan where 5 year old Nevaeh Buchanan was reported missing on 5/24/09.

The only thing found was her bicycle.

No one saw Nevaeh being taken by force. No car was spotted, and no potential abductor was identified in the first few hours- BUT- an Amber Alert was issued.
(They now are questioning a man)

Why did the Monroe police issue an Amber Alert? Because “they believe she was abducted and is in extreme danger.” LE had none of the required information needed to issue an Amber Alert but they made an educated assumption and decided that if they were going to err; it was going to be on the side of caution.

As of this post; Nevaeh is still missing.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=143252708&albumID=2107080&imageID=35436300

[Amy]

the court order is to enable her to be out of jail and assisting the police, permission needs to be granted for her to leave the premisis

Thanks. After a couple of posts, I think Doctor_J finally got that thru my head. Takes a few repetitions sometimes for me to "get it" :wink:

[n/t]

Good morning all,

Over the weekend I read a few news reports and newspaper editorials that stated that the police did not falter in not issuing an Amber Alert in Tori’s case. They said there was no sighting of an abduction, and no information about a car or abductor, so it would not have been proper to issue an Amber Alert.

As it turns out an interesting counterpoint to those news editorials was taking place just over the boarder in Monroe, Michigan where 5 year old Nevaeh Buchanan was reported missing on 5/24/09.

The only thing found was her bicycle.

No one saw Nevaeh being taken by force. No car was spotted, and no potential abductor was identified in the first few hours- BUT- an Amber Alert was issued.
(They now are questioning a man)

Why did the Monroe police issue an Amber Alert? Because “they believe she was abducted and is in extreme danger.” LE had none of the required information needed to issue an Amber Alert but they made an educated assumption and decided that if they were going to err; it was going to be on the side of caution.

As of this post; Nevaeh is still missing.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=143252708&albumID=2107080&imageID=35436300

Morning Peter,

GMTA. I posted about that case yesterday. :wink:

[Skraps]

Exactly, Scraps, that`s what I meant: it`s not the HD Guelph but likely HD Woodstock. If you look it up with Google Map it will show Keyes Drive on back of HD building. See if it looks familiar...
You are one adventurous spirit Scraps :)

Good job ThinkTank!

[north-eh]

Good morning everyone!
Looks like MR is on suicide watch.
Tori's accused killer on suicide watch
http://news.therecord.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/542585

KITCHENER

The man accused of abducting and killing Victoria Stafford is in segregation and on suicide watch in a London jail, his Kitchener lawyer said yesterday.

"He's in a six by eight (foot) jail cell trying to survive," Hal Mattson said.

"That's what he's concentrating on right now."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I hope and pray today is the day Tori is bought home to her family.
N

[n/t]

Bringing this over from the Holiday Forum.....

05-26-2009, 09:10 AM
north-eh
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hamilton, ontario canada
Posts: 344

Good morning everyone!
Looks like MR is on suicide watch.
Tori's accused killer on suicide watch
http://news.therecord.com/News/Canad...article/542585

KITCHENER

The man accused of abducting and killing Victoria Stafford is in segregation and on suicide watch in a London jail, his Kitchener lawyer said yesterday.

"He's in a six by eight (foot) jail cell trying to survive," Hal Mattson said.

"That's what he's concentrating on right now."



Wow!!! :ohmy:

[n/t]

ooops the link doesn't work.

[n/t]

Let's try this link

Tori's accused killer on suicide watch

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/486208

[n/t]

The date time stamp mystery solved? From the same link posted above.
===

But the car had been caught on tape at an Esso Station half a kilometre from Oliver Stephens School, where Tori studied.

The day Tori was abducted, Oxford Community Police officers visited the gas station at about 9 p.m. and checked video footage, said owner Jigar Patel. "A technician came the next day (April 9) and spent five or six hours and recorded everything (from the surveillance cameras)."

Patel recognized his gas station -- on Norwich Avenue at Parkinson Road -- from a photograph released by the investigating team last Friday after the suspects were in custody. The photograph had the time 4:24:29 printed on it, but Patel said the time monitor on his surveillance cameras is an hour and a few minutes ahead and he put the actual time at about 3:32 or 3:33 p.m. That would have been within minutes of Tori being taken.

[north-eh]

Oops sorry about the link not working and thanks n/t for posting one that does.
Well how's that for news?
N

[n/t]

Oops sorry about the link not working and thanks n/t for posting one that does.
Well how's that for news?
N

Thanks for the news!

If he's contemplating suicide, I think we can all agree on what that means. Coward!!! :angry:

[north-eh]

Thanks for the news!

If he's contemplating suicide, I think we can all agree on what that means. Coward!!! :angry:

Says a lot to me that's for sure.
" I didn't to it!" he says, right! He's trying to survive too, well well, he may have lots of time to get that one down pat then.
N

[Gugug]

The date time stamp mystery solved? From the same link posted above.
===

But the car had been caught on tape at an Esso Station half a kilometre from Oliver Stephens School, where Tori studied.

The day Tori was abducted, Oxford Community Police officers visited the gas station at about 9 p.m. and checked video footage, said owner Jigar Patel. "A technician came the next day (April 9) and spent five or six hours and recorded everything (from the surveillance cameras)."

Patel recognized his gas station -- on Norwich Avenue at Parkinson Road -- from a photograph released by the investigating team last Friday after the suspects were in custody. The photograph had the time 4:24:29 printed on it, but Patel said the time monitor on his surveillance cameras is an hour and a few minutes ahead and he put the actual time at about 3:32 or 3:33 p.m. That would have been within minutes of Tori being taken.

Yes, it is. think a lot of people don't bother resetting for Daylight Saving Time.

This also solves the question of the image being from a Home Depot in Guelph. I did not believe that, and said yesterday that I thought it might have been taken in Woodstock. Once they gave the wider image that showed the parking lot, people who shop at HD in Guelph could have recognized that it was not there. The time stamp was not shown in earlier photos published in the media, either. Whose decision was it to crop the photos: police or media outlets? Why wasn't this information released by police earlier on?

Rafferty does not look like the old photos we've seen of him, either. He appears bloated. That smug look on his face? I've seen it before, and it's insight into his character.

[lizzard]

Thanks for the news!

If he's contemplating suicide, I think we can all agree on what that means. Coward!!! :angry:

Might just be a way to get into seg. Prisoners do not take kindly to baby killers, alleged or not.

IMO

[n/t]

Yes, it is. think a lot of people don't bother resetting for Daylight Saving Time.

This also solves the question of the image being from a Home Depot in Guelph. I did not believe that, and said yesterday that I thought it might have been taken in Woodstock. Once they gave the wider image that showed the parking lot, people who shop at HD in Guelph could have recognized that it was not there. The time stamp was not shown in earlier photos published in the media, either. Whose decision was it to crop the photos: police or media outlets? Why wasn't this information released by police earlier on?

Rafferty does not look like the old photos we've seen of him, either. He appears bloated. That smug look on his face? I've seen it before, and it's insight into his character.


Are you talking about the picture in the link? That's not Rafferty. It's the guy at the Esso station.

[n/t]

Might just be a way to get into seg. Prisoners do not take kindly to baby killers, alleged or not.

IMO

Good point. Coward!:angry:

[Gugug]

Well done, Skraps. Thank you for checking out the HD parking lot in Guelph. You're amazing.

Now we know why police "believe" Tori was in the car when the photo was taken: it was a minute or two after her capture.

[moonlite]

Bringing this over from the Holiday Forum.....

05-26-2009, 09:10 AM
north-eh
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hamilton, ontario canada
Posts: 344

Good morning everyone!
Looks like MR is on suicide watch.
Tori's accused killer on suicide watch
http://news.therecord.com/News/Canad...article/542585

KITCHENER

The man accused of abducting and killing Victoria Stafford is in segregation and on suicide watch in a London jail, his Kitchener lawyer said yesterday.

"He's in a six by eight (foot) jail cell trying to survive," Hal Mattson said.

"That's what he's concentrating on right now."



Wow!!! :ohmy:

Greetings'
N/T'

I think it's pretty common for a suspect to be put on suicide watch and be segregated. IMO' sounds like his attorney is trying to play with the sympathy of the public by his statement.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Are you talking about the picture in the link? That's not Rafferty. It's the guy at the Esso station.

Greetings'
N/T'

I thought the same thing about the guy in the photo on that page.
Someone should tell the guy to take his picture off the page before people misconstrue things.
I'm only saying that for the Esso man's safety.
I sure would not want my picture plastered on a page with MR.

Moonlite

[Hollyhocks]

Greetings'
N/T'

I think it's pretty common for a suspect to be put on suicide watch and be segregated. IMO' sounds like his attorney is trying to play with the sympathy of the public by his statement.

Moonlite

I second that! :wink:

[n/t]

Tori case: Third abandoned car seat reported to police
A third abandoned car seat has been reported to police in Kitchener, in the hunt for clues in the murder of Victoria Stafford, 8.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/486277


Sheesh....does everyone abandon their backseats in Kitchener? :scared:

[Gugug]

Here's another way the car seat removal could indicate premeditation.

Let's say someone bought or rented a set of bolt cutters or other tools that could be used to remove a car seat at a home improvement store. If it could be proven that Tori was still alive at that point, this would indicate planning of some sort. Removal of the seat after the murder would be secondary to the planning before the murder.

Another way this information could be useful is if police could show that the seat was removed after the crime. It would then prove an attempt to cover up the crime, so the perpetrator could not use an insanity plea. People who have the wherewithal to conceal evidence in order to hide their involvement in a crime cannot easily fool the courts into believing that they did not know what they were doing. Manslaughter is not believable in these circumstances.

Back to the car seat. Some models' car seats are hard to find. Junk yards, the reputable ones anyways, keep track of purchases, and in some places police check these records. So, if a seat was bought at a junk yard, there is a good chance someone would have information. Police in certain places have the cooperation of the junk yards because some people sell stolen car parts. When I purchased a used part at such a place, they went out to my vehicle and wrote down the licence number. It's worthwhile for the police to check this information, assuming the seat was not purchased elsewhere, like, I don't know, an autobody shop that was getting rid of some old stuff on the side, KWIM?

[Gugug]

Tori case: Third abandoned car seat reported to police
A third abandoned car seat has been reported to police in Kitchener, in the hunt for clues in the murder of Victoria Stafford, 8.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/486277


Sheesh....does everyone abandon their backseats in Kitchener? :scared:

Don't tell me that Kitchener is one of those places where people put used car seats on their front lawns for use as lawn furniture.

[Gugug]

Greetings'
N/T'

I thought the same thing about the guy in the photo on that page.
Someone should tell the guy to take his picture off the page before people misconstrue things.
I'm only saying that for the Esso man's safety.
I sure would not want my picture plastered on a page with MR.

Moonlite

He'll be lynched.

[lizzard]

Tori case: Third abandoned car seat reported to police
A third abandoned car seat has been reported to police in Kitchener, in the hunt for clues in the murder of Victoria Stafford, 8.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/486277


Sheesh....does everyone abandon their backseats in Kitchener? :scared:

Equally important is WHY are people now running around abandoning backseats in Kitchener? :shrug:

[n/t]

Greetings'
N/T'

I think it's pretty common for a suspect to be put on suicide watch and be segregated. IMO' sounds like his attorney is trying to play with the sympathy of the public by his statement.

Moonlite

It's not working. :angry:

[Hollyhocks]

It's not working. :angry:

LOL :thumbsup:

[Gugug]

Greetings'
N/T'

I think it's pretty common for a suspect to be put on suicide watch and be segregated. IMO' sounds like his attorney is trying to play with the sympathy of the public by his statement.

Moonlite

I saw an article yesterday. Another ex GF of MR said he was crying all the time, trying to manipulate people.

[lizzard]

It's not working. :angry:

Same with Melissa Huckaby. Didn't work there either.

IMO

[Orleaner12]

Good point. Coward!:angry:


the police would be totally nuts not to put him in segregation..he is their prime suspect and they will make sure no harm comes to him..I think most perps, in his situation would be watched 24/7, just in case..I doubt it has anything to do with what he is feeling...he will probably, once convicted, put in a special part of the prison..I don't think as much as we would like it, that he will ever be in with the general population...

[M_J]

I don't really care if he's on suicide watch. Let em do it.

Harsh, but jmo..

[n/t]

I don't really care if he's on suicide watch. Let em do it.

Harsh, but jmo..

No no no no...he has to face justice first!

[n/t]

the police would be totally nuts not to put him in segregation..he is their prime suspect and they will make sure no harm comes to him..I think most perps, in his situation would be watched 24/7, just in case..I doubt it has anything to do with what he is feeling...he will probably, once convicted, put in a special part of the prison..I don't think as much as we would like it, that he will ever be in with the general population...

Was Bernardo in general population?

[n/t]

'Tori's Law' urges changes to Amber Alert system
There is mounting interest among authorities to review the police' Amber Alert system after more than 20,000 people signed a petition calling for changes.

Ontario NDP MPP Rosario Marchese will reportedly bring up the issue at Queen's Park on Tuesday.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090526/Tori_law_090526/20090526/?hub=TorontoNewHome

I know I keep posting it but I'm just so happy it's being addressed! :smile:

[Orleaner12]

no, I read an article a few years back that a reporter, who I believe was the only one granted an interview with him..he is locked up in a dark cell by himself and it seemed he is only permitted out for one hour a day for excerise... that article may still be on line somewhere if you google..

[n/t]

no, I read an article a few years back that a reporter, who I believe was the only one granted an interview with him..he is locked up in a dark cell by himself and it seemed he is only permitted out for one hour a day for excerise... that article may still be on line somewhere if you google..

Thanks....not interested in googling him. Blech!

[Gugug]

This convicted murderer cried for the TV cameras a lot. No tears, mind you. Tears, it seems, are optional:

http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/sundayreader/story.html?id=ec11a6d7-fc8a-4f5b-81e1-0b2061e00a62

[Hollyhocks]

At one time I lived right next door to one of he reporters who was covering the Bernardo/Homolka trial.
He was so traumatized that one weekend he worked through the nights and completely re-landscaped his backyard.
He was THAT desperate for some 'pleasantness' in his life.:sad:

[Orleaner12]

here is a link on the life of P.B. in Kingston prison...half way down the page they write about him..

http://www.insideprison.com/Kingston-Penitentiary.asp

[Orleaner12]

Thanks....not interested in googling him. Blech!



I agree...that is one book I could never pick up and read......

[Gugug]

A few things to remember about the Ken and Barbie killers, as they became known in the media:

Paul's father and Paul himself were investigated by police, who suspected them as being the Scarborough rapist. Paul's father had a history.

Paul changed his last name in jail. He became Paul Teale. Then Karla changed her last name to Teale, too. Then they started being referred to by Bernardo and Homolka again. Who knows what they call themselves now?

Karla handed over her own young sister to Paul as a Christmas present. The sister died.

Karla worked as a veterinary assistant, which gave her access to anaesthetics used in the crimes. She disposed of at least one body. She dismembered the victim, then sealed parts in concrete, which was dropped in a lake. This was evidence presented in the preliminary hearing, which came out in overseas newspapers. Canadian media are required by law to respect publication bans imposed by the courts.

Karla did not have a criminal record before these crimes.

Karla is out of jail and reportedly living somewhere in the Caribbean with her young child and partner.

This case was the reason many Canadians have strong feelings against plea deals. Karla portrayed herself as an abused spouse, rather than the active and willing participant she was in these crimes. There is so much more information that I won't mention, but it is fair to say that a plea deal in this case would meet with outrage from the public.

[justmy2cents]

not sure if anyone has noted this yet but here in canada [U]any [U]person put in custody due to something in regards to a child is immediately put into protective custody.:thumbdown:

side note i would love to see the general population get ahold of these people but again only after they have had their time in court.

Remember what happened to Jeffery Dalhmer (sp) i wish for the same outcome for all these sick and twisted f%^ks

[Gugug]

I saw an article yesterday. Another ex GF of MR said he was crying all the time, trying to manipulate people.

Found it:

http://www.nationalpost.com/most-popular/story.html?id=1622110

[tarabull1]

A few things to remember about the Ken and Barbie killers, as they became known in the media:

Paul's father and Paul himself were investigated by police, who suspected them as being the Scarborough rapist. Paul's father had a history.

Paul changed his last name in jail. He became Paul Teale. Then Karla changed her last name to Teale, too. Then they started being referred to by Bernardo and Homolka again. Who knows what they call themselves now?

Karla handed over her own young sister to Paul as a Christmas present. The sister died.

Karla worked as a veterinary assistant, which gave her access to anaesthetics used in the crimes. She disposed of at least one body. She dismembered the victim, then sealed parts in concrete, which was dropped in a lake. This was evidence presented in the preliminary hearing, which came out in overseas newspapers. Canadian media are required by law to respect publication bans imposed by the courts.

Karla did not have a criminal record before these crimes.

Karla is out of jail and reportedly living somewhere in the Caribbean with her young child and partner.

This case was the reason many Canadians have strong feelings against plea deals. Karla portrayed herself as an abused spouse, rather than the active and willing participant she was in these crimes. There is so much more information that I won't mention, but it is fair to say that a plea deal in this case would meet with outrage from the public.

Ironically this was JUST in the news this past week:

http://karla-homolka-news.newslib.com/story/4715-3068959/

[Gugug]

Something is bothering me about this article:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/640348

I read that the car did not enter the investigation until TLM told the police her story. That is odd. They were looking for a green van, but not any other vehicle? They took video footage from the school, and the gas station, and looked for a green van, but did not connect the dots that it could have been another vehicle?

Many here have asked about footage from the nursing home parking lot, which is where it appeared the "mystery woman" led Tori. Where is that footage? Have they looked at it?

When they copied the footage from the Woodstock Esso station, did they not glance down at their watches to see if the time on the current video was correct, or even think to ask the station owner?

How could this footage have gone unnoticed all this time? Oh, no, what were the police doing/not doing? Maybe they should go to the HD/HD Tool Rental in Woodstock and check store video cameras as well as cashiers' tapes. Maybe the car made more than one stop that day. Maybe they should check all video cams on the route to the MacDonald-Cartier Freeway, and ask store managers if the date stamp is correct.

[Gugug]

An explanation to our American readers:

Why did so many people get upset about Tara McDonald's press conferences?

While Tori's story was unfolding, another very different story was happening in Toronto. A potential organ donor's story was brought forward by the child's parents. These cases usually remain quiet. In this case, the infant who was a potential donor was still alive, and the parents had made it known that they wanted her organs to go to a child they had chosen as a recipient. This is not normal procedure. Then everyone watched as the child died. Except she didn't. The genetic condition causing the child's eventual demise was not taking her life yet, after all. The father held press conferences. Then it turned out that the father had a shady past and was due to appear in court on some charges. It all got ugly.

Meanwhile, back in Woodstock, James Goris was due to appear in court on charges. Tara held daily press conferences. And so on.

[n/t]

Something is bothering me about this article:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/640348

I read that the car did not enter the investigation until TLM told the police her story. That is odd. They were looking for a green van, but not any other vehicle? They took video footage from the school, and the gas station, and looked for a green van, but did not connect the dots that it could have been another vehicle?

Many here have asked about footage from the nursing home parking lot, which is where it appeared the "mystery woman" led Tori. Where is that footage? Have they looked at it?

When they copied the footage from the Woodstock Esso station, did they not glance down at their watches to see if the time on the current video was correct, or even think to ask the station owner?

How could this footage have gone unnoticed all this time? Oh, no, what were the police doing/not doing? Maybe they should go to the HD/HD Tool Rental in Woodstock and check store video cameras as well as cashiers' tapes. Maybe the car made more than one stop that day. Maybe they should check all video cams on the route to the MacDonald-Cartier Freeway, and ask store managers if the date stamp is correct.


What green van? Are you talking about that station wagon or whatever make that car was in the surveillance video?

This one?http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/1562596.bin%3Fsize%3D404x272&imgrefurl=http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/story.html%3Fid%3D1562561&usg=__CxTHidu46PQlAfzTiy_fXoIJpkY=&h=272&w=404&sz=6&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=hbDaM5h3FOzSGM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvictoria%2Bstafford%2Bvideo%2Bcar%26n dsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enCA283CA283%26 sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[n/t]

An explanation to our American readers:

Why did so many people get upset about Tara McDonald's press conferences?

While Tori's story was unfolding, another very different story was happening in Toronto. A potential organ donor's story was brought forward by the child's parents. These cases usually remain quiet. In this case, the infant who was a potential donor was still alive, and the parents had made it known that they wanted her organs to go to a child they had chosen as a recipient. This is not normal procedure. Then everyone watched as the child died. Except she didn't. The genetic condition causing the child's eventual demise was not taking her life yet, after all. The father held press conferences. Then it turned out that the father had a shady past and was due to appear in court on some charges. It all got ugly.

Meanwhile, back in Woodstock, James Goris was due to appear in court on charges. Tara held daily press conferences. And so on.


I'm lost. :unsure:

[moonlite]

Here's another way the car seat removal could indicate premeditation.

Let's say someone bought or rented a set of bolt cutters or other tools that could be used to remove a car seat at a home improvement store. If it could be proven that Tori was still alive at that point, this would indicate planning of some sort. Removal of the seat after the murder would be secondary to the planning before the murder.

Another way this information could be useful is if police could show that the seat was removed after the crime. It would then prove an attempt to cover up the crime, so the perpetrator could not use an insanity plea. People who have the wherewithal to conceal evidence in order to hide their involvement in a crime cannot easily fool the courts into believing that they did not know what they were doing. Manslaughter is not believable in these circumstances.

Back to the car seat. Some models' car seats are hard to find. Junk yards, the reputable ones anyways, keep track of purchases, and in some places police check these records. So, if a seat was bought at a junk yard, there is a good chance someone would have information. Police in certain places have the cooperation of the junk yards because some people sell stolen car parts. When I purchased a used part at such a place, they went out to my vehicle and wrote down the licence number. It's worthwhile for the police to check this information, assuming the seat was not purchased elsewhere, like, I don't know, an autobody shop that was getting rid of some old stuff on the side, KWIM?

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thank you for explaining your reasoning here with the back seat. I have a question for you? Does Canada, have a insanity plea? What happens to a person declared insane? What I mean do you know if the person would ever get out of the hospital?
I know in the USA, most time people who plea insanity are locked up for life. I should clarify' the people who commit violent crimes.

Moonlite

[Gugug]

What green van? Are you talking about that station wagon or whatever make that car was in the surveillance video?

This one?http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/1562596.bin%3Fsize%3D404x272&imgrefurl=http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/story.html%3Fid%3D1562561&usg=__CxTHidu46PQlAfzTiy_fXoIJpkY=&h=272&w=404&sz=6&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=hbDaM5h3FOzSGM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvictoria%2Bstafford%2Bvideo%2Bcar%26n dsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enCA283CA283%26 sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Yes. That one.

[Gugug]

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thank you for explaining your reasoning here with the back seat. I have a question for you? Does Canada, have a insanity plea? What happens to a person declared insane? What I mean do you know if the person would ever get out of the hospital?
I know in the USA, most time people who plea insanity are locked up for life. I should clarify' the people who commit violent crimes.

Moonlite

Yes, people can plead not guilty by reason of insanity. I do not know the specifics of how this is handled. Some are sent to institutions for the criminally insane, such as the facility at Penetanguishene, Ontario. This is where Dr. Robert Hare found ample material to develop his psychopathy checklist.

Locking anyone up for life is very difficult in Canada. We have "Dangerous Offender" status, which can accomplish this. However, it usually takes more than one crime/conviction, and even then is difficult to obtain. I am thinking of a serial rapist and diagnosed psychopath who challenged the court's declaration of Dangerous Offender status and won. He was released, and continually defies the conditions of his parole, yet remains free.

I don't know how mentally ill people are handled in this respect. Does anyone else dare to address this?

[n/t]

Yes. That one.

I'm guessing that wasn't the car they were looking for and only after they got the car, they realized it was at the Esso station on surveillance video.

Per the link:

-----

The car was recently seized by the police and "was not part of the information we had prior to the arrest of the suspect (Michael Rafferty, 28)," explained Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland, spokeswoman for the investigative team.

[moonlite]

I saw an article yesterday. Another ex GF of MR said he was crying all the time, trying to manipulate people.
Greetings'
Gugug"

I can believe MR is a good actor who likes to get his own way. I also believe he is emotionally immature and acting like a child.IMO I'm really wondering what type of strategy his attorney is going to be using? I'm mean it's starting to sound like the attorney is starting on the sympathy card.
Moonlite

[Gugug]

I'm lost. :unsure:

These two stories were playing out in a parallel way in the media simultaneously. The parents, or rather the father, of the baby girl, was stepping out speaking at press conferences. The parents had apparently forced the doctors to step outside of normal protocol, which is for medical professionals to decide who receives donated organs, rather than the donor's family deciding, and the parents reportedly made the donation conditional upon this. Normally, everyone remains anonymous.

Accusations were made by the family about the way the hospital and doctors handled the case. There was mention of violence and hospital staff needing to physically restrain relatives in the unit where the donor was being treated. A trust fund was set up for the baby.

Then it turned out that the father had a past history involving drugs, and was going to court on some charges.

Meanwhile, in Woodstock, rumors were flying about drugs in Tori's disappearance. Then James Goris went to court. Daily press conferences were being held. Accusations were made about the police handling of the case. A trust fund was set up. Etc.

I guess it's not the Canadian way to live your life in the spotlight and not only air your dirty laundry in public, but pre-treat, soak, wash, rinse and dry it for all to see.

Children were at the centre of both of these news stories, for very different reasons. In both cases, the story of the children seemed to get lost in all the chaos and drama surrounding their families. The families played to the media. The media reported it. It wasn't a pretty picture, but it was a symbiotic one.

[moonlite]

Yes, people can plead not guilty by reason of insanity. I do not know the specifics of how this is handled. Some are sent to institutions for the criminally insane, such as the facility at Penetanguishene, Ontario. This is where Dr. Robert Hare found ample material to develop his psychopathy checklist.

Locking anyone up for life is very difficult in Canada. We have "Dangerous Offender" status, which can accomplish this. However, it usually takes more than one crime/conviction, and even then is difficult to obtain. I am thinking of a serial rapist and diagnosed psychopath who challenged the court's declaration of Dangerous Offender status and won. He was released, and continually defies the conditions of his parole, yet remains free.

I don't know how mentally ill people are handled in this respect. Does anyone else dare to address this?

Greetings'
Gugug"

I know of one case here in USA, where a serial rapist is up for civil commitment. From what I understand, the rapist refused to admit guilt and treatment.
How do we know for sure if MR hasn't committed any more crimes? Do you know what type of treatment they give sex offenders?
Moonlite

[Gugug]

I'm guessing that wasn't the car they were looking for and only after they got the car, they realized it was at the Esso station on surveillance video.

Per the link:

-----

The car was recently seized by the police and "was not part of the information we had prior to the arrest of the suspect (Michael Rafferty, 28)," explained Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland, spokeswoman for the investigative team.

Even I am having to admit that perhaps the police had a case of tunnel vision.

I posted the story about Michael White today, as an example of what happens when an investigation goes right. Not only did investigators obtain the video security camera tapes, they watched them, and asked the owners if the time on the tapes was correct. Then they verified this independently.

On the last page of the article, an investigator described it as a dream case, the kind where lucky breaks and investigation come together. He also described the murderer as stupid. The magic combination.

[moonlite]

These two stories were playing out in a parallel way in the media simultaneously. The parents, or rather the father, of the baby girl, was stepping out speaking at press conferences. The parents had apparently forced the doctors to step outside of normal protocol, which is for medical professionals to decide who receives donated organs, rather than the donor's family deciding, and the parents reportedly made the donation conditional upon this. Normally, everyone remains anonymous.

Accusations were made by the family about the way the hospital and doctors handled the case. There was mention of violence and hospital staff needing to physically restrain relatives in the unit where the donor was being treated. A trust fund was set up for the baby.

Then it turned out that the father had a past history involving drugs, and was going to court on some charges.

Meanwhile, in Woodstock, rumors were flying about drugs in Tori's disappearance. Then James Goris went to court. Daily press conferences were being held. Accusations were made about the police handling of the case. A trust fund was set up. Etc.

I guess it's not the Canadian way to live your life in the spotlight and not only air your dirty laundry in public, but pre-treat, soak, wash, rinse and dry it for all to see.

Children were at the centre of both of these news stories, for very different reasons. In both cases, the story of the children seemed to get lost in all the chaos and drama surrounding their families. The families played to the media. The media reported it. It wasn't a pretty picture, but it was a symbiotic one.

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thanks for explaining!!! I was lost too. I never heard or even knew about the baby story?

Hopefully' on a wing and prayer Tori will be found soon.

Moonlite

[brooklinite]

not sure if anyone has noted this yet but here in canada [U]any [U]person put in custody due to something in regards to a child is immediately put into protective custody.:thumbdown:

side note i would love to see the general population get ahold of these people but again only after they have had their time in court.

Remember what happened to Jeffery Dalhmer (sp) i wish for the same outcome for all these sick and twisted f%^ks

Bingo. Even in an often amoral criminal population, there is a special code when it comes to child killers, even those that have not yet been convicted. They wouldn't last a day in general pop.

[brooklinite]

Even I am having to admit that perhaps the police had a case of tunnel vision.

I posted the story about Michael White today, as an example of what happens when an investigation goes right. Not only did investigators obtain the video security camera tapes, they watched them, and asked the owners if the time on the tapes was correct. Then they verified this independently.
On the last page of the article, an investigator described it as a dream case, the kind where lucky breaks and investigation come together. He also described the murderer as stupid. The magic combination.

I agree. Verifying whether or not the time code is correct is quick and simple, and should be done before LE even begins watching the tapes. It's their frame of reference FGS!

[Bala]

A few things to remember about the Ken and Barbie killers, as they became known in the media:

Paul's father and Paul himself were investigated by police, who suspected them as being the Scarborough rapist. Paul's father had a history.

Paul changed his last name in jail. He became Paul Teale. Then Karla changed her last name to Teale, too. Then they started being referred to by Bernardo and Homolka again. Who knows what they call themselves now?

Karla handed over her own young sister to Paul as a Christmas present. The sister died.

Karla worked as a veterinary assistant, which gave her access to anaesthetics used in the crimes. She disposed of at least one body. She dismembered the victim, then sealed parts in concrete, which was dropped in a lake. This was evidence presented in the preliminary hearing, which came out in overseas newspapers. Canadian media are required by law to respect publication bans imposed by the courts.

Karla did not have a criminal record before these crimes.

Karla is out of jail and reportedly living somewhere in the Caribbean with her young child and partner.

This case was the reason many Canadians have strong feelings against plea deals. Karla portrayed herself as an abused spouse, rather than the active and willing participant she was in these crimes. There is so much more information that I won't mention, but it is fair to say that a plea deal in this case would meet with outrage from the public.

The worse part of the Canadian justice system is that Karla walks free and now has a child. How could anyone allow this woman near to bare their child and leave her alone with it.

[Gugug]

Greetings'
Gugug"

I know of one case here in USA, where a serial rapist is up for civil commitment. From what I understand, the rapist refused to admit guilt and treatment.
How do we know for sure if MR hasn't committed any more crimes? Do you know what type of treatment they give sex offenders?
Moonlite

First, I wanted to say that even insane people can be found guilty of crimes here, if the police can prove that they were "sane" at the time. Anyone who premeditates in any way, or conceals evidence after the fact would be considered in control of their thoughts and actions, and therefore not insane at that moment.

Then there are the guilty and insane. I cannot speak to that issue, but there are others here who probably can.

Treatment for sex offenders is optional. They can refuse to participate and cooperate. This would affect them when it comes to early release for good behavior. They most likely would have to serve their sentence in full in such cases. It's mandatory release if they have served their time in full. As for treatment programs, I'm not familiar with those.

Our National Parole Board is remarkably inconsistent in handling these cases, though, and there are some tragedies that rest solely at their feet, IMO.

We do not know if MR has a criminal record. If the police make a statement confirming this, that's the surest bet. There is no easy way to get this information, as each province and territory has two court systems: federal and provincial/territorial. Recent court findings can be found on the provincial websites, but not all are listed. Juvenile records are not available, ever, due to our Young Offender rules. Essentially, names of young offenders are not made public, and the slate is erased when these people reach age 18.

Also, in the case of sex offences against children, public court records might show only initials. This is done to protect the identity of the children involved. As we know, the most likely people to offend against children are those in their circle. Releasing those names could identify the child.

Similarly, it is extremely difficult to obtain public records of family court matters. Our courts seal a lot of information.

Expect some newpapers to apply for court documents under the Freedom of Information act, if they find something of interest that has been sealed.

Part of the public anger in the Karla Homolka trial was the information that was banned from publication within the preliminary hearing (trial before a trial, to determine if there is sufficient evidence to proceed). Foreign media released information that made it abundantly clear that Homolka was an active participant in the crimes. All the while, Canadians could not get this information. I'm not sure if it was ever released here, but it was splashed all over foreign media outlets.

[Gugug]

The worse part of the Canadian justice system is that Karla walks free and now has a child. How could anyone allow this woman near to bare their child and leave her alone with it.

He served time for murdering his girlfriend:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_New_Karla_Homolka_06NOV99.aspx

[justmy2cents]

Greetings'
Gugug"

I know of one case here in USA, where a serial rapist is up for civil commitment. From what I understand, the rapist refused to admit guilt and treatment.
How do we know for sure if MR hasn't committed any more crimes? Do you know what type of treatment they give sex offenders?
Moonlite

In my situation, the sex offender (step parent) was charged by myself and a cousin, the SO got a 3 year suspended sentence and not to be around myself and my cousin as well as not to be around any where kids are and not to be in the company of children under 16, and best to my knowledge received no councelling of any kind. This man spent only 1 night in jail and that was due to I was in a public place and he wouldn't leave so the police were called.

Also to clear up the councelling costs, none were covered by OHIP, all of my councelling regarding this costs were incurred by my mother and myself, there is however compensation that a victim of a crime can apply for, it is called Criminal compensation. I received this and used those funds for the councelling I so badly needed. A shrink mind you is different ie: someone tries to commit suicide, they go in hospital and is given a doctor, this is covered by OHIP as well as more visits to this Dr.

I hope that this lends some answers to questions. Oh yeah only the OPP or RCMP as well as local police have access to the RSO list. We the public are not privy to this information, who they are or where they live.

Me personally I called the place where RSO was working and informed them that they had a RSO working for them and I would no longer be one of their customers. Needless to say the RSO was let go. By the way this all occurred before the RSO list came into play and he is not required to be on it.:thumbdown::cursing:

[Gugug]

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thanks for explaining!!! I was lost too. I never heard or even knew about the baby story?

Hopefully' on a wing and prayer Tori will be found soon.

Moonlite

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_33976.aspx

Note the "focus on my daughter" phrase. Where did we hear that?

Concerns arose that the trust fund, set up by a friend of the father, might be used to pay for his court costs. The father engaged the services of a PR man, who said that the father would be applying for legal aid, and the trust fund moneys were safe. Was the guy working pro-bono, like the Octomom's? Oops, I said it. There are a lot of trust funds out there. Cynicism is setting in.

[n/t]

Amber Alerts: To Call Or Not To Call?

It's one of the questions that continue to haunt the Tori Stafford case - why didn't authorities call an Amber Alert?



more at the link....

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34857.aspx

[lizzard]

The worse part of the Canadian justice system is that Karla walks free and now has a child. How could anyone allow this woman near to bare their child and leave her alone with it.

I was absolutely certain CAS would remove that baby at birth. What were they thinking? :cursing:

IMO

[Gugug]

In my situation, the sex offender (step parent) was charged by myself and a cousin, the SO got a 3 year suspended sentence and not to be around myself and my cousin as well as not to be around any where kids are and not to be in the company of children under 16, and best to my knowledge received no councelling of any kind. This man spent only 1 night in jail and that was due to I was in a public place and he wouldn't leave so the police were called.

Also to clear up the councelling costs, none were covered by OHIP, all of my councelling regarding this costs were incurred by my mother and myself, there is however compensation that a victim of a crime can apply for, it is called Criminal compensation. I received this and used those funds for the councelling I so badly needed. A shrink mind you is different ie: someone tries to commit suicide, they go in hospital and is given a doctor, this is covered by OHIP as well as more visits to this Dr.

I hope that this lends some answers to questions. Oh yeah only the OPP or RCMP as well as local police have access to the RSO list. We the public are not privy to this information, who they are or where they live.

Me personally I called the place where RSO was working and informed them that they had a RSO working for them and I would no longer be one of their customers. Needless to say the RSO was let go. By the way this all occurred before the RSO list came into play and he is not required to be on it.:thumbdown::cursing:

Revictimization: all so wrong morally, ethically and in every other way. I am sorry that you have gone through that awful experience.

[brooklinite]

For anyone interested, "not guilty by reason of insanity" was dispensed with in 1991-1992 and upheld in 2000 in favour of "not criminally responsible on grounds of mental disorder." Semantics, yes, but "not criminally responsible" was further defined in Section 16 of the Criminal Code of Canada as:

"No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered a person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong."

Any actions that acknowledge a guilty act or that could assist a person in avoiding detection, such as the disposal of evidence, particularly in a remote location often go against a finding of NCR (not criminally responsible). There are of course, other mitigating factors, but simplistically, the removal of the MR's car seat, the disposal of evidence and remains, the remote location, TLM's haircut and fabric dye for her coat, etc. all speak to the awareness of criminal responsibility.

[n/t]

I apologize if this was already posted. First time I see it.

Relatives dispute media reports

Muise said she was so fed up with one person's attack on Tara on a Facebook page that she felt compelled to respond.

"Everybody's making up stories about her. I was getting so mad that I had to quit going on (Facebook)."

The family has had to endure the loss of Tori and the personal attacks on her mother, as well as accusations from police that Tara had something to do with the horrific crime, said Muise.

"Investigators said to her many times, 'We'll see you in court.' 'We know it's you.'"

"They were focusing on the family," added Sharon. At one point, police even interviewed Tori's brother Daryn, 11, without another adult being present.

"He cried all night. The family's been through hell. (The police) had no proof and they made it so much harder for them. Tara was such a basket case," said Sharon.



http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1582425

[n/t]

I haven't found any news reports on their search today. Are they still searching the lakes? Are they still in Guelph? Kitchener?

[Gugug]

No, this isn't true. This guy was her "boyfriend" for awhile when she was in jail, but she's now married(?) to another man named Thierry Bordelais. I don't know if he has a criminal record or not.

Sorry, OT, but I just wanted to point that out.

No problem. They may have a whole brood of children by now, and could be living in my city, for all I know.

[Gugug]

I apologize if this was already posted. First time I see it.

Relatives dispute media reports

Muise said she was so fed up with one person's attack on Tara on a Facebook page that she felt compelled to respond.

"Everybody's making up stories about her. I was getting so mad that I had to quit going on (Facebook)."

The family has had to endure the loss of Tori and the personal attacks on her mother, as well as accusations from police that Tara had something to do with the horrific crime, said Muise.

"Investigators said to her many times, 'We'll see you in court.' 'We know it's you.'"

"They were focusing on the family," added Sharon. At one point, police even interviewed Tori's brother Daryn, 11, without another adult being present.

"He cried all night. The family's been through hell. (The police) had no proof and they made it so much harder for them. Tara was such a basket case," said Sharon.



http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1582425

The source of that information was Tara McDonald. Tara's claims are questionable. She lost credibility when she said she only used drugs in high school, and it was only marijuana. Then she contradicted that. Apparently she used drugs much more recently, and it wasn't marijuana. She also attended a methadone clinic. Not only is "everyone" making up stories about Tara McDonald, she has made some up herself.

[Gugug]

There is a forum dedicated to watching LT/KH:

http://watchingkarlahomolka.yuku.com/

I had no idea. I'm with Doug French on the matter, "Good riddance."

[Gugug]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090525/national/missing_girl

Is the Tori alert the idea of someone on this forum? If so, great idea.

[Orleaner12]

another missing girl today in Toronto...


http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34861.aspx

[n/t]

another missing girl today in Toronto...


http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34861.aspx

oh dear.:sad:

Will you start a thread on the Amber Alert Forum or would you like me to?

[Orleaner12]

oh dear.:sad:

Will you start a thread on the Amber Alert Forum or would you like me to?


I'd rather you do it N/T ..... so far this is the only one that has picked up on it...I checked the CTV & CBC sites but nothing yet....

[n/t]

I'd rather you do it N/T ..... so far this is the only one that has picked up on it...I checked the CTV & CBC sites but nothing yet....

ok will do. Hope she's found soon. :rose:

Here's another link. No picture yet. :sad:

http://www.680news.com/news/headlines/more.jsp?content=20090526_144423_7736

[n/t]

Tori Stafford's grandma can still hear daughter's sobs when told Tori was dead

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j7vJ7Vq_YAIj9ZcMYU5znwerYFHQ

[north-eh]

Hi again everyone, here's some news.
Break in case led to arrests: chief
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1584000

<<<snipped>>>>
Apologizing for the lack of public information, Fraser said police needed to protect the integrity of the investigation as officers continued to collect evidence against Rafferty, 28, and 18-year-old McClintic.

"This is a strong case," Fraser said, "and it becomes stronger as time goes on and we do our jobs."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
N

[canada]

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thank you for explaining your reasoning here with the back seat. I have a question for you? Does Canada, have a insanity plea? What happens to a person declared insane? What I mean do you know if the person would ever get out of the hospital?
I know in the USA, most time people who plea insanity are locked up for life. I should clarify' the people who commit violent crimes.

Moonlite

Re: Insanty
There are some people that are found to be "not criminally responsible" and do not ever go to trial. They are kept on a psych hold in a psychiatric facility and are routinely reviewed. If they are found to be fit for trial then they can go to trial and claim they are not criminally responsible during the offence. There have been some that do not go to trial because they are not fit and locked up in a psych facility to be reviewed. Those people and there have been some have later gone on to recover/be successfully treated for mental illness are are then released back into the community. It's happened. One of the latest cases of somebody not being criminally responsible is Vince Li the "bus beading guy". The victim's mother is trying to get changes to the system and is advocating "Tim's Law". I don't want to hijack this thread so if you want more info just google it.
There was another case where I live where a guy was "treated successfully", released into the community...and let me tell you....he went to the local university which didn't please a lot of people. Years later he killed somebody else.
In summary...our system stinks.

[BevAnn]

I've been out through out the holiday weekend - did they find poor Tori yet? I take it from the thread title still saying "missing" she has NOT been found? :crying: It's just so awful...why won't those awful people just tell them where she is??!

[canada]

Snipped How do we know for sure if MR hasn't committed any more crimes? Moonlite


Moonlite,
We don't know about MR's past and that is something I was thinking of today. I would be finding out his whereabouts for any other missing children. I don't see what he did as something that just happened to come up that day. There has got to be a history of something. I bet his computer is filled with porn for starters.

[moonlite]

First, I wanted to say that even insane people can be found guilty of crimes here, if the police can prove that they were "sane" at the time. Anyone who premeditates in any way, or conceals evidence after the fact would be considered in control of their thoughts and actions, and therefore not insane at that moment.

Then there are the guilty and insane. I cannot speak to that issue, but there are others here who probably can.

Treatment for sex offenders is optional. They can refuse to participate and cooperate. This would affect them when it comes to early release for good behavior. They most likely would have to serve their sentence in full in such cases. It's mandatory release if they have served their time in full. As for treatment programs, I'm not familiar with those.

Our National Parole Board is remarkably inconsistent in handling these cases, though, and there are some tragedies that rest solely at their feet, IMO.

We do not know if MR has a criminal record. If the police make a statement confirming this, that's the surest bet. There is no easy way to get this information, as each province and territory has two court systems: federal and provincial/territorial. Recent court findings can be found on the provincial websites, but not all are listed. Juvenile records are not available, ever, due to our Young Offender rules. Essentially, names of young offenders are not made public, and the slate is erased when these people reach age 18.

Also, in the case of sex offences against children, public court records might show only initials. This is done to protect the identity of the children involved. As we know, the most likely people to offend against children are those in their circle. Releasing those names could identify the child.

Similarly, it is extremely difficult to obtain public records of family court matters. Our courts seal a lot of information.

Expect some newpapers to apply for court documents under the Freedom of Information act, if they find something of interest that has been sealed.

Part of the public anger in the Karla Homolka trial was the information that was banned from publication within the preliminary hearing (trial before a trial, to determine if there is sufficient evidence to proceed). Foreign media released information that made it abundantly clear that Homolka was an active participant in the crimes. All the while, Canadians could not get this information. I'm not sure if it was ever released here, but it was splashed all over foreign media outlets.

Greetings'
Gugug"

Thanks for the information. I kind of remember Homolka, case. Yes' very sad too. Well hopefully' the Government won't seal all of the records of Tori's case. I think the public has a right to know!!IMO

Here's wishing Tori found soon.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Snipped


Moonlite,
We don't know about MR's past and that is something I was thinking of today. I would be finding out his whereabouts for any other missing children. I don't see what he did as something that just happened to come up that day. There has got to be a history of something. I bet his computer is filled with porn for starters.

Greetings"
Canada"

I was thinking the same thing too!! I just think MR, might not have been caught at doing it. I'm wondering if he is guilty then there must be others? I'm not saying murdered so to speak; I'm just saying a trail of victims some place? IMO

Moonlite

[beespence]

another missing girl today in Toronto...


http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34861.aspx

Don't know if this posted yet or not but they found the little girl...safe

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsr...pdfs/16493.pdf

[moonlite]

Re: Insanty
There are some people that are found to be "not criminally responsible" and do not ever go to trial. They are kept on a psych hold in a psychiatric facility and are routinely reviewed. If they are found to be fit for trial then they can go to trial and claim they are not criminally responsible during the offence. There have been some that do not go to trial because they are not fit and locked up in a psych facility to be reviewed. Those people and there have been some have later gone on to recover/be successfully treated for mental illness are are then released back into the community. It's happened. One of the latest cases of somebody not being criminally responsible is Vince Li the "bus beading guy". The victim's mother is trying to get changes to the system and is advocating "Tim's Law". I don't want to hijack this thread so if you want more info just google it.
There was another case where I live where a guy was "treated successfully", released into the community...and let me tell you....he went to the local university which didn't please a lot of people. Years later he killed somebody else.
In summary...our system stinks.

Greetings'
Canada"

Thank you for explaining this too me. I'm beginning to understand Canadian Law a wee-bit better.
So if MR, would get insanity he basically being doing the same time, if he were declared competent.
Kind of sounds like some of the Canadian laws need to be looked or updated. IMO

Moonlite

[VC2]

In my situation, the sex offender (step parent) was charged by myself and a cousin, the SO got a 3 year suspended sentence and not to be around myself and my cousin as well as not to be around any where kids are and not to be in the company of children under 16, and best to my knowledge received no councelling of any kind. This man spent only 1 night in jail and that was due to I was in a public place and he wouldn't leave so the police were called.

Also to clear up the councelling costs, none were covered by OHIP, all of my councelling regarding this costs were incurred by my mother and myself, there is however compensation that a victim of a crime can apply for, it is called Criminal compensation. I received this and used those funds for the councelling I so badly needed. A shrink mind you is different ie: someone tries to commit suicide, they go in hospital and is given a doctor, this is covered by OHIP as well as more visits to this Dr.

I hope that this lends some answers to questions. Oh yeah only the OPP or RCMP as well as local police have access to the RSO list. We the public are not privy to this information, who they are or where they live.

Me personally I called the place where RSO was working and informed them that they had a RSO working for them and I would no longer be one of their customers. Needless to say the RSO was let go. By the way this all occurred before the RSO list came into play and he is not required to be on it.:thumbdown::cursing:

That is bizarre. Everyone I know who went to psychiatrists were covered by OHIP. I realize psychologists are not but psychiatrists are M.D.s and therefore all therapy with them is covered.

Someone must have given you bad information, because there is no way you could not have had therapy/counselling and cost covered.

ETA oh i see you mentioned that psychiatrists are covered, but it has nothing to do with in a hospital. Mine and others were simple referrals from our family doctors to a psychiatrist with offices in town. I never think of a psychologist for counselling bc i find they are more metrics oriented (tests etc) than psychiatrists who aremore therapy oriented. In fact mine had nothing to do with my actual medications part, he consulted with my GP but only dealt with the therapy, believing that it was better to separate the enviromental/situational therapy from the biological

[justmy2cents]

That is bizarre. Everyone I know who went to psychiatrists were covered by OHIP. I realize psychologists are not but psychiatrists are M.D.s and therefore all therapy with them is covered.

Someone must have given you bad information, because there is no way you could not have had therapy/counselling and cost covered.

ETA oh i see you mentioned that psychiatrists are covered, but it has nothing to do with in a hospital. Mine and others were simple referrals from our family doctors to a psychiatrist with offices in town. I never think of a psychologist for counselling bc i find they are more metrics oriented (tests etc) than psychiatrists who aremore therapy oriented. In fact mine had nothing to do with my actual medications part, he consulted with my GP but only dealt with the therapy, believing that it was better to separate the enviromental/situational therapy from the biological

I understand what you are saying but...I am only speaking about a person you see for counselling not a psychiatrist who will give you medication, yes that doctor is covered but in my situation I did not want to be medicated I strickly needed counselling and that psychologist was not covered by OHIP.

This is a great example of why fundraisers happen when a child goes missing, this type of councelling is not covered here. And believe me therapy is needed for many many many years to come.

I can't phathom what this family is going through. My heart is with them and I pray Victoria is found soon so that the proper grieving and healing can occur. Really right now their emotions are kind of on hold, they aren't able to start the healing process until they know where their child is.

[Jester]

Here's another way the car seat removal could indicate premeditation.

Let's say someone bought or rented a set of bolt cutters or other tools that could be used to remove a car seat at a home improvement store. If it could be proven that Tori was still alive at that point, this would indicate planning of some sort. Removal of the seat after the murder would be secondary to the planning before the murder.

Another way this information could be useful is if police could show that the seat was removed after the crime. It would then prove an attempt to cover up the crime, so the perpetrator could not use an insanity plea. People who have the wherewithal to conceal evidence in order to hide their involvement in a crime cannot easily fool the courts into believing that they did not know what they were doing. Manslaughter is not believable in these circumstances.

Back to the car seat. Some models' car seats are hard to find. Junk yards, the reputable ones anyways, keep track of purchases, and in some places police check these records. So, if a seat was bought at a junk yard, there is a good chance someone would have information. Police in certain places have the cooperation of the junk yards because some people sell stolen car parts. When I purchased a used part at such a place, they went out to my vehicle and wrote down the licence number. It's worthwhile for the police to check this information, assuming the seat was not purchased elsewhere, like, I don't know, an autobody shop that was getting rid of some old stuff on the side, KWIM?

It seem rather obvious that his was a premeditated rape and murder. Terry Lynne and Michael Rafferty went to the school to kidnap a child with every intention of Michael raping her. They were not taking her for an ice cream. Terry Lynne knew this, and walked away from the car so Michael to commit the rape. Murder was also in the plan, as there's no way they could return Tori to her mother without being caught, and they definitely didn't want to get caught. That's premeditated rape and murder for both Terry Lynne and Michael Rafferty.

[n/t]

It seem rather obvious that his was a premeditated rape and murder. Terry Lynne and Michael Rafferty went to the school to kidnap a child with every intention of Michael raping her. They were not taking her for an ice cream. Terry Lynne knew this, and walked away from the car so Michael to commit the rape. Murder was also in the plan, as there's no way they could return Tori to her mother without being caught, and they definitely didn't want to get caught. That's premeditated rape and murder for both Terry Lynne and Michael Rafferty.

Just to add...she says she walked away but who the heck knows. She could've participated. Sick! Sick monsters. :cursing:

[n/t]

Why can't I find any updates of the search? There's nothing in the news. Does anyone have anything? :sad:

[cantstandnuts]

Don't know if this posted yet or not but they found the little girl...safe

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsr...pdfs/16493.pdf


I know this is O/T and I apologize, but this link doesn't work and the amber alert thread for Naveah isn't saying she was found, just that she may have been spotted. I googled and didn't find anything saying she was found. ??

[cantstandnuts]

Why can't I find any updates of the search? There's nothing in the news. Does anyone have anything? :sad:


Nothing on the search, no. :cursing:

I found this link and I don't think it's been posted yet...It's about the community's grief. This little girl sure captured everyone's hearts.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090523/national/missing_girl

[ttcRider]

I know this is O/T and I apologize, but this link doesn't work and the amber alert thread for Naveah isn't saying she was found, just that she may have been spotted. I googled and didn't find anything saying she was found. ??

the link was for the little Toronto girl in Canada.

[cantstandnuts]

the link was for the little Toronto girl in Canada.

Yes, I know, but it didn't work for me. I googled and didn't find anything on her being found and the amber alert thread didn't mention that she'd been found, just that she may have been spotted.

Sorry for the O/T again, it is just that this didn't sound good at all, pedo involved in the child's life and all, so I was excited when I heard she'd been found. Was she?

[ttcRider]

I can't handle this waiting, and I live halfway across the country and had no idea Victoria Stafford existed before April 8th. I can't even imagine how her family is dealing with this.

I can also see why some of the members here felt they were becoming too emotionally involved and had to take a break.

Do you think we will find anything out that may shed some light on this crime soon? Or do you think there will be a publication ban coming soon that will prevent any information leaks until everything is said and done, which could take years? I really thought that they would find her body by now, but the fact that they haven't yet leads me to believe that either it's too well-hidden, or there's no longer anything to find. *shudder* :crying:

I wouldnt be surprised if there was a publication ban/gag order on this, thats just Canadian Law... We will never really find out what happened. IMO :unsure:

[n/t]

Ontario Correctional Services Minister Rick Bartolucci said he agreed with the petition's request for the review.

“The OPP is going to have a fulsome review,” he said. “They'll involve our partners, and if in fact recommendations are made to change the Amber Alert, I'll be more than happy to work with our policing partners in that.

“At the end of the day we want the strongest possible alert mechanism in place, so I look forward to the findings of the review.”

more at the link.....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/opp-calls-review-into-amber-alert-system/article1152731/


I am so thrilled you cannot imagine. Our voices were heard. Thanks to all who signed the petition and a big big big thank you to SP for starting the petition.

The next step is getting these child predators off our streets and away from our children. Much more difficult task considering our privacy laws but it needs to be done.

Tori needs to be found so we can all say our goodbyes and the persons responsible to face the punishment they so deserve. :rose:

[cantstandnuts]

I can't handle this waiting, and I live halfway across the country and had no idea Victoria Stafford existed before April 8th. I can't even imagine how her family is dealing with this.

I can also see why some of the members here felt they were becoming too emotionally involved and had to take a break.

Do you think we will find anything out that may shed some light on this crime soon? Or do you think there will be a publication ban coming soon that will prevent any information leaks until everything is said and done, which could take years? I really thought that they would find her body by now, but the fact that they haven't yet leads me to believe that either it's too well-hidden, or there's no longer anything to find. *shudder* :crying:


I'm sick about this. I wish they would find her and with the cooperation (using this term loosely) of TLM, thought they would have by now. I truly think TLM was playing everyone with her "efforts" to help LE in the search and that this was a sick game she played and that she never intended to help them at all, but rather just string everyone along to prolong the agony.

[cantstandnuts]

Ontario Correctional Services Minister Rick Bartolucci said he agreed with the petition's request for the review.

“The OPP is going to have a fulsome review,” he said. “They'll involve our partners, and if in fact recommendations are made to change the Amber Alert, I'll be more than happy to work with our policing partners in that.

“At the end of the day we want the strongest possible alert mechanism in place, so I look forward to the findings of the review.”

more at the link.....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/opp-calls-review-into-amber-alert-system/article1152731/


I am so thrilled you cannot imagine. Our voices were heard. Thanks to all who signed the petition and a big big big thank you to SP for starting the petition.

The next step is getting these child predators off our streets and away from our children. Much more difficult task considering our privacy laws but it needs to be done.

Tori needs to be found so we can all say our goodbyes and the persons responsible to face the punishment they so deserve. :rose:


When I signed it, there were only 7550 who had. I read the petition ended up with over 20K signatures, that's amazing!

[cantstandnuts]

Change the "..." to "newsreleases/pdfs" so it becomes:

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/16493.pdf

What's this about a pedo being involved in her life?

ETA: Okay, my link ends up looking the same, but it seems to work.

Oh, hell. I got her mixed up with Naveah Buchanan, 5. She's missing from Ohio...pedo in her life thanks to the mother. I feel like an idiot now. There are just too many children missing, I'm getting them confused. :crying:

[n/t]

I wouldnt be surprised if there was a publication ban/gag order on this, thats just Canadian Law... We will never really find out what happened. IMO :unsure:

We will know what happened at trial. You are correct that these monsters are protected by the privacy laws but evenutally we will know what happened to Victoria Stafford.

I want her to be found so she can be laid to rest and have a proper funeral. I think not only the people of Woodstock but nationwide we need to say our goodbyes.

[brooklinite]

I'm sick about this. I wish they would find her and with the cooperation (using this term loosely) of TLM, thought they would have by now. I truly think TLM was playing everyone with her "efforts" to help LE in the search and that this was a sick game she played and that she never intended to help them at all, but rather just string everyone along to prolong the agony.

It may indeed have been a sick game. It could also have been a very calculated one to make people think that TLM actually had no knowledge of where Tori's remains are beyond what MR might have told her, from which they could infer that she really wasn't so involved after all.

[cantstandnuts]

It may indeed have been a sick game. It could also have been a very calculated one to make people think that TLM actually had no knowledge of where Tori's remains are beyond what MR might have told her, from which they could infer that she really wasn't so involved after all.

OH, she was involved. I'd bet my bottom dollar on that one. I'm actually thinking she's the one who actually killed little Tori. She couldn't have been any colder when they appeared for the arraignment. She claims to have walked away when he assaulted Tori and I do not believe that. I think she was a full participant in all of it and I think she's now playing everyone.

[brooklinite]

OH, she was involved. I'd bet my bottom dollar on that one. I'm actually thinking she's the one who actually killed little Tori. She couldn't have been any colder when they appeared for the arraignment. She claims to have walked away when he assaulted Tori and I do not believe that. I think she was a full participant in all of it and I think she's now playing everyone.

I don't disagree with you. I think she may be trying to manipulate LE and the public by making herself come across as someone with less knowledge and involvement than she actually has. What I meant by my post above is that the past week of catered helicopter tours that came up empty may have been a big PR campaign on TLM's part.

[Aussie Gal]

Hi Everyone.

I don't post much but I am here every day reading along with all of you.

I think TLM can't direct them to the body because MR may have moved it once she was arrested and knew she'd probably talk.

I haven't been able to find the link where TLM says she walked away while Tori was assulted. If some has it saved could they please post it for me.. or point me in the right direction. TIA

[cantstandnuts]

I don't disagree with you. I think she may be trying to manipulate LE and the public by making herself come across as someone with less knowledge and involvement than she actually has. What I meant by my post above is that the past week of catered helicopter tours that came up empty may have been a big PR campaign on TLM's part.

You are probably right. She's got a good lawyer, it seems...probably her idea. It's not going to work. The public is all over this and I'm guessing LE isn't impressed with her, either. Course, they aren't talking yet, so who the heck knows what they're thinking. This case is killing me. :crying:

[Hope4Tori]

This is for you n/t -:wub:- from the CBC news online, Ottawa bureau

Ontario police reviewing Amber Alert in wake of Victoria Stafford case

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/05/26/amber-alert.html

Maybe when you mark your birthday next year, you will remember Tori and the Amber Alert you helped to change by your dedication and your advocacy on behalf of all children . . . No, the change is not yet official, but I do predict it will be!:smile:

May Tori be reunited with her loved one today!:wub:

[n/t]

This is for you n/t -:wub:- from the CBC news online, Ottawa bureau

Ontario police reviewing Amber Alert in wake of Victoria Stafford case

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/05/26/amber-alert.html

Maybe when you mark your bithday next year, you will remember Tori and the Amber Alert you helped to change by your dedication and your advocacy on behalf of all children . . . No, the change is not yet official, but I do predict it will be!:smile:

May Tori be reunited with her loved one today!:wub:

I wish I could take the credit H4T but it's the wonderful lady who started the petition who deserves all the praise and of course, all of us who signed the petition and made our voices heard.

And yes, every year I will remember Tori on my birthday and the dedication by all to help bring her home. I wish it could've been a celebration of finding her alive but I know Tori is smiling down on us from heaven. Victoria Day has a whole new meaning. She will be found and she will get justice.

[doctor_J]

I just wanted to speak to everyone I've spent so many hours discussing and fretting over this case with for weeks. I'm just lurking and waiting and waiting and waiting. Nothing of value to add. :sad:

[n/t]

I just wanted to speak to everyone I've spent so many hours discussing and fretting over this case with for weeks. I'm just lurking and waiting and waiting and waiting. Nothing of value to add. :sad:

:wub:

I wish we had some news about the search.

[n/t]

A note on the side...: a co-worker who lives in Guelph reported the OPP was canvassing his whole neighbourhood today, knocking at all doors, tracking names, leaving phone numbers behind in case important information would come to mind later on. I bet they are trying their best to get tons of information for the trial starting in two days.

The trial doesn't start in 2 days. It's my understanding Thursday is when they will enter their pleas of guilty or not guilty and a trial date will then be set by the judge.

[brooklinite]

Unfortunately Thursday is only the very beginning of the process. TLM and MR are just scheduled to appear via video, I believe, simply to answer to the charges that have been laid.

TLM's charges may still change, but it looks like she's done a nice job stalling that so far by distracting everyone with her wild goose chase.

[beespence]

[QUOTE=cantstandnuts;13140559]I know this is O/T and I apologize, but this link doesn't work and the amber alert thread for Naveah isn't saying she was found, just that she may have been spotted. I googled and didn't find anything saying she was found. ??[/
I read the police notice ...thanking the public and informing them that she had been located @ 2:54 pm . sorry about the link.

Answering a question in regards to a 12yr old that had gone missing in toronto today...

[Hollyhocks]

I just wanted to speak to everyone I've spent so many hours discussing and fretting over this case with for weeks. I'm just lurking and waiting and waiting and waiting. Nothing of value to add. :sad:

Back for a few mins...no news Dr. J?? This morning seemed so hopeful in terms of new news!

[ttcRider]

Did anyone else hear that MR was on a suicide watch?

[Jester]

When I signed it, there were only 7550 who had. I read the petition ended up with over 20K signatures, that's amazing!

Do you think it matters who is signing the petition? I think it's great that there is support for reviewing how the Amber Alert decisions were made in the case of Victoria Stafford, but if the majority of signatures are from foreigners, does it matter?

[Skraps]

Well done, Skraps. Thank you for checking out the HD parking lot in Guelph. You're amazing.

Now we know why police "believe" Tori was in the car when the photo was taken: it was a minute or two after her capture.

...or maybe MR filled up, then abducted Tori, then went to HD Guelph - where I understand it is alleged (sp) Tori was supposedly seen in the car, then went to the current police ground zero.
??

[Hollyhocks]

Do you think it matters who is signing the petition? I think it's great that there is support for reviewing how the Amber Alert decisions were made in the case of Victoria Stafford, but if the majority of signatures are from foreigners, does it matter?

After reviewing it...I don't see that most people have added WHERE they are from!

But it seems hopeful in terms of effecting change!

[Skraps]

Was Bernardo in general population?

No, while awaiting trial Bernardo was in Super Seg at Metro East Detention's 2nd floor, east wing pedophile unit. Bunch of creeps up there. He had his very own cell complete with cement filled door. Everyone entering the unit, even the guards, had to sign into a log -time in /time out. He was complaining to his lawyer that the guards were threatening him and being mean to him.
Anyone want to get in line?

[aproudmom]

Police would be part of review

As an online petition to change the conditions for issuing AMBER Alerts gained momentum yesterday, the chief of the Oxford Community Police Service indicated a willingness to participate in a review of the system. In an interview with Sun Media, Chief Ron Fraser suggested that a review of this OPP-administered warning system might result in some improvements.

"Maybe the criteria should be looked at," Fraser said.


http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1583903


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

:thumbsup:Wonderful news out of this whole sad horrible case

[north-eh]

Did anyone else hear that MR was on a suicide watch?

Yes he is according to reports. Here is the link that was already posted earlier today.

Tori's accused killer on suicide watch
http://news.therecord.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/542585

N

[Hollyhocks]

Yes he is according to reports. Here is the link that was already posted earlier today.

Tori's accused killer on suicide watch
http://news.therecord.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/542585

N

I have to agree with a previous poster's opinion...this report is a ploy by his lawyer to accrue sympathy toward him.

And according to another:

"It's not working".

[Skraps]

LE has laid serious charges against MR and TLM already regarding murder.
But they haven't laid sexual assault charges.

LE has not informed the public of any evidence, whatsoever, that they may have for the murder charge and yet they are so convinced that Tori has been murdered that they have laid the charges.

What I am getting at here is the proof of Tori's death must be so clear that they can lay the murder charges, but yet they haven't laid SA charges.

LE must have some serious physical evidence proving Tori's death. I imagine, so gruesome and horrific, that they cannot release it to the public at this time.

... so I doubt LE is laying murder charges based solely on TLM's KGB Video Statement or they woulda laid the SA charges as well. in my ho.

[aproudmom]

Greetings'
N/T'

I think it's pretty common for a suspect to be put on suicide watch and be segregated. IMO' sounds like his attorney is trying to play with the sympathy of the public by his statement.

Moonlite

usually they hold them on at least a 48 hours watch and then if they feel they could harm themselves they can continue keeping them on watch..the Craigslist killer was put on a watch when they saw he tried to hang himself with his shoe strings did not even know they allowed them in Jail for that reason though

[juliekan]

OH, she was involved. I'd bet my bottom dollar on that one. I'm actually thinking she's the one who actually killed little Tori. She couldn't have been any colder when they appeared for the arraignment. She claims to have walked away when he assaulted Tori and I do not believe that. I think she was a full participant in all of it and I think she's now playing everyone.

I agree with brooklinite and your posts. She's savvy and playing off the fact that she found out he had a penchant for young girls. In an attempt to lure and keep him, she went out and found the girl. She provided what he wanted most and had never done. Then she killed her, thinking he would forever be tied to her. But then LE took her in. At that point she could not control him or the situation. I hope they check into her A LOT MORE. JMO

[Lorelei]

Hmm, anyone know why i wasn't able to access the board since May 22? I checked again today and saw there has been tons of activity. Missed alot.

[Hope4Tori]

One last late night post from me my friends, and I'm wishing each of you all the best! :wub:

A Poem for Tori :wub:

Tonight as I think of you and prepare to make my leave
I shed a lonely silent tear and privately grieve for you
The little girl I care about, yet never knew
But grew to love from a distance so close it hurts
Yes it’s true, the world woke up one chilly April day
Wish now I could have slept right through to May or June or . . .
All these weeks spent wondering where you were and where you are
Everyone nearby, and those across miles and nations, far and wide
Everyone is thinking of you and how you are tonight, sweet child
Whatever happened to you Tori, we all know it is not right,
The news of you, a missing child, so hard to fathom, so unkind
And since that dreadful day you are on my mind, and the world
Weighs on so many shoulders, the world it will not sleep, nor will I
As we pray the Lord your soul to keep, sweet angel of the skies
Every thought of you brings with it tears to the eyes of wise and willing hearts
Wishing you did not have to part from all your dreams of youth so soon
Imagining you hopping, skipping, jumping o’er a shadowy purple moon
Shining your hope and love and innocence onto the winds of change
Your sweetness, and your spirit, and ever etched into memory, your name
Tori, when we heard the news you had been taken away against your will
Time stopped and our heart’s stood still, seems ever since and ever will
All because of you and the hope we had for the little girl we never knew
But grew to care about, no doubt, among the many left hanging in the air
It is not fair, nor is it understood by my simple wish to know the reasons why
Since that cruel April day, with answers yet to come and much mystery to be solved
Your beauty touched and inspired us to make a difference as we evolve
beyond thoughts of the unspeakable, to protect all the other little ones, in your name
Tori, rest assured, your suffering is felt by everyone and will not be in vain
I hope your heart is listening somewhere safe tonight, as in comfort now you may rest
You now know the peace we are all searching for better than anyone ever guessed
So sad, little Tori, our hearts will beat an extra one for yours every time your name is said
Every time a mother hugs her child, and every time a father tucks his little one in bed
Every memory sweet for all the beauty you gave and sad for your future that was taken
You leave the world a better place for having been and you will never be forsaken
I never knew you little Tori, blue eyes shining in all your glory
I so hoped the bad ones would set you free to be your Daddy’s girl, to sit on Momma’s knee
To run and play into your dreams with big brother by your side, into your future wide and open
But tonight I know no matter what, the love you had here will always be with you, just as I was hoping
Safe you are in the heavens of dreams, even children cannot imagine its victorious view
As I look now at your photograph, I see your trusting face, your eyes shining bright and blue,
The world's forever little girl, resting in the safety of God's eternal grace
Smiling, playful, sweet and funny, I know you were because your parents told the world about you, Tori
You could be any little girl, but because you were uniquely you, the world and I will not forget your story
Your story will bring change to the weary world with each new time it's told
Wherever you are sweet child of hope this cold and rainy eve
Wish one last wish upon a heavenly star and know the word is so sad to see you leave
A hug and a kiss and a moonlit wish, Victoria Stafford, you will be missed and justice will be yours, I hope and pray
Forevermore. . .:wub:

Lovingly,
Hope 4 Tori xo

[juliekan]

Hmm, anyone know why i wasn't able to access the board since May 22? I checked again today and saw there has been tons of activity. Missed alot.

Sorry :sad:, when there is a holiday, they close the board down to a temporary forum thread. Only that thread and the amber alert thread (on the regular board site) are open. This is what it looks like.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/forumdisplay.php?f=633

glad you're back!

[lizzard]

Hmm, anyone know why i wasn't able to access the board since May 22? I checked again today and saw there has been tons of activity. Missed alot.

It was an American holiday, CW opens holiday threads. You have lots to read!!:smile:

[Lorelei]

It was an American holiday, CW opens holiday threads. You have lots to read!!:smile:

Thanks everyone. Altho I have kept up to all that is happening, I missed the board, will know for next time :)

[Lorelei]

Hope Tori is found soon :( Her family needs closure :(

[moonlite]

usually they hold them on at least a 48 hours watch and then if they feel they could harm themselves they can continue keeping them on watch..the Craigslist killer was put on a watch when they saw he tried to hang himself with his shoe strings did not even know they allowed them in Jail for that reason though

Greetings'
AProudMom"

I think MR' is a big cry baby'IMO Plus' if they put MR with the rest of the people. The guy might get hurt and then we would not find out the truth!! Then again' the police might get sued too if they knowing let something happen to him.
I didn't think they allowed shoes strings in jail either?
Moonlite

[moonlite]

One last late night post from me my friends, and I'm wishing each of you all the best! :wub:

A Poem for Tori :wub:

Tonight as I think of you and prepare to make my leave
I shed a lonely silent tear and privately grieve for you
The little girl I care about, yet never knew
But grew to love from a distance so close it hurts
Yes it’s true, the world woke up one chilly April day
Wish now I could have slept right through to May or June or . . .
All these weeks spent wondering where you were and where you are
Everyone nearby, and those across miles and nations, far and wide
Everyone is thinking of you and how you are tonight, sweet child
Whatever happened to you Tori, we all know it is not right,
The news of you, a missing child, so hard to fathom, so unkind
And since that dreadful day you are on my mind, and the world
Weighs on so many shoulders, the world it will not sleep, nor will I
As we pray the Lord your soul to keep, sweet angel of the skies
Every thought of you brings with it tears to the eyes of wise and willing hearts
Wishing you did not have to part from all your dreams of youth so soon
Imagining you hopping, skipping, jumping o’er a shadowy purple moon
Shining your hope and love and innocence onto the winds of change
Your sweetness, and your spirit, and ever etched into memory, your name
Tori, when we heard the news you had been taken away against your will
Time stopped and our heart’s stood still, seems ever since and ever will
All because of you and the hope we had for the little girl we never knew
But grew to care about, no doubt, among the many left hanging in the air
It is not fair, nor is it understood by my simple wish to know the reasons why
Since that cruel April day, with answers yet to come and much mystery to be solved
Your beauty touched and inspired us to make a difference as we evolve
beyond thoughts of the unspeakable, to protect all the other little ones, in your name
Tori, rest assured, your suffering is felt by everyone and will not be in vain
I hope your heart is listening somewhere safe tonight, as in comfort now you may rest
You now know the peace we are all searching for better than anyone ever guessed
So sad, little Tori, our hearts will beat an extra one for yours every time your name is said
Every time a mother hugs her child, and every time a father tucks his little one in bed
Every memory sweet for all the beauty you gave and sad for your future that was taken
You leave the world a better place for having been and you will never be forsaken
I never knew you little Tori, blue eyes shining in all your glory
I so hoped the bad ones would set you free to be your Daddy’s girl, to sit on Momma’s knee
To run and play into your dreams with big brother by your side, into your future wide and open
But tonight I know no matter what, the love you had here will always be with you, just as I was hoping
Safe you are in the heavens of dreams, even children cannot imagine its victorious view
As I look now at your photograph, I see your trusting face, your eyes shining bright and blue,
The world's forever little girl, resting in the safety of God's eternal grace
Smiling, playful, sweet and funny, I know you were because your parents told the world about you, Tori
You could be any little girl, but because you were uniquely you, the world and I will not forget your story
Your story will bring change to the weary world with each new time it's told
Wherever you are sweet child of hope this cold and rainy eve
Wish one last wish upon a heavenly star and know the word is so sad to see you leave
A hug and a kiss and a moonlit wish, Victoria Stafford, you will be missed and justice will be yours, I hope and pray
Forevermore. . .:wub:

Lovingly,
Hope 4 Tori xo

Greetings'
Hope 4 Tori"

This is a very nice poem. You did a great job.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Unfortunately Thursday is only the very beginning of the process. TLM and MR are just scheduled to appear via video, I believe, simply to answer to the charges that have been laid.

TLM's charges may still change, but it looks like she's done a nice job stalling that so far by distracting everyone with her wild goose chase.

Greetings"
Brooklinite"

As per our other conversations about TLM and her wild goose chase. I still think the police should get her for interfering with the search. So far, TLM has done nothing but cost Canada, allot of money.
I'm wondering what it would take for TLM to say where Tori is located?

What would be the purpose at this point in stalling? I mean at the most she is only facing 25 yrs. The way I understand it from what others have said. The 25 yrs could be way less and TLM, MR both will be fairly young still.
I bet the police are fed up with both TLM and MR.
TLM for her lying about where Tori is at.
Then they have to contend with the drama queen MR.IMO

Moonlite

[moonlite]

I just wanted to speak to everyone I've spent so many hours discussing and fretting over this case with for weeks. I'm just lurking and waiting and waiting and waiting. Nothing of value to add. :sad:

Greetings'
Doctor J'

You do have something of value to add: You Care!!!

Moonlite

[doctor_J]

Greetings'
Doctor J'

You do have something of value to add: You Care!!!

Moonlite

Gee thanks Moonlite, u made my day.

Maybe tomorrow, Tori will come home to all who loved her in life and those of us who came to love her after she was lost to all.

It's just the freakin injustice and NEEDLESSNESS that I can't overcome. It never had to happen. It served no purpose. It wasn't an act of God. I quess it can only be classified as EVIL visited upon us. I want someone to pay and that still won't be enough, because we cant' make them suffer like she did and it won't bring her back.

[streeter]

Beautiful poem, H4T. :wub:

Regarding the news that the photo was taken at the gas station minutes AFTER Tori was abducted: it got me thinking WHAT A PAIR OF IDIOTS! I never thought of myself as having a criminal mind, but if I were going to do something so serious as to kidnap another human being, I'd put gas in my friggin' tank BEFORE I did the crime.

What a pair of nutjobs. :cursing:

[Hollyhocks]

One last late night post from me my friends, and I'm wishing each of you all the best!

A Poem for Tori :wub:

Tonight as I think of you and prepare to make my leave
I shed a lonely silent tear and privately grieve for you
The little girl I care about, yet never knew
But grew to love from a distance so close it hurts
Yes it’s true, the world woke up one chilly April day
Wish now I could have slept right through to May or June or . . .
All these weeks spent wondering where you were and where you are
Everyone nearby, and those across miles and nations, far and wide
Everyone is thinking of you and how you are tonight, sweet child
Whatever happened to you Tori, we all know it is not right,
The news of you, a missing child, so hard to fathom, so unkind
And since that dreadful day you are on my mind, and the world
Weighs on so many shoulders, the world it will not sleep, nor will I
As we pray the Lord your soul to keep, sweet angel of the skies
Every thought of you brings with it tears to the eyes of wise and willing hearts
Wishing you did not have to part from all your dreams of youth so soon
Imagining you hopping, skipping, jumping o’er a shadowy purple moon
Shining your hope and love and innocence onto the winds of change
Your sweetness, and your spirit, and ever etched into memory, your name
Tori, when we heard the news you had been taken away against your will
Time stopped and our heart’s stood still, seems ever since and ever will
All because of you and the hope we had for the little girl we never knew
But grew to care about, no doubt, among the many left hanging in the air
It is not fair, nor is it understood by my simple wish to know the reasons why
Since that cruel April day, with answers yet to come and much mystery to be solved
Your beauty touched and inspired us to make a difference as we evolve
beyond thoughts of the unspeakable, to protect all the other little ones, in your name
Tori, rest assured, your suffering is felt by everyone and will not be in vain
I hope your heart is listening somewhere safe tonight, as in comfort now you may rest
You now know the peace we are all searching for better than anyone ever guessed
So sad, little Tori, our hearts will beat an extra one for yours every time your name is said
Every time a mother hugs her child, and every time a father tucks his little one in bed
Every memory sweet for all the beauty you gave and sad for your future that was taken
You leave the world a better place for having been and you will never be forsaken
I never knew you little Tori, blue eyes shining in all your glory
I so hoped the bad ones would set you free to be your Daddy’s girl, to sit on Momma’s knee
To run and play into your dreams with big brother by your side, into your future wide and open
But tonight I know no matter what, the love you had here will always be with you, just as I was hoping
Safe you are in the heavens of dreams, even children cannot imagine its victorious view
As I look now at your photograph, I see your trusting face, your eyes shining bright and blue,
The world's forever little girl, resting in the safety of God's eternal grace
Smiling, playful, sweet and funny, I know you were because your parents told the world about you, Tori
You could be any little girl, but because you were uniquely you, the world and I will not forget your story
Your story will bring change to the weary world with each new time it's told
Wherever you are sweet child of hope this cold and rainy eve
Wish one last wish upon a heavenly star and know the word is so sad to see you leave
A hug and a kiss and a moonlit wish, Victoria Stafford, you will be missed and justice will be yours, I hope and pray
Forevermore. . .:wub:

Lovingly,
Hope 4 Tori xo

Hi H4T,

You have put heart and soul into Tori's tragedy. That is a lovely poem and tribute.
I hope the person on FB who is making a book for the family includes it.
XOXOX:wub:

P.S. We all value your contributions! Please do not leave for good!

[Hollyhocks]

Gee thanks Moonlite, u made my day.

Maybe tomorrow, Tori will come home to all who loved her in life and those of us who came to love her after she was lost to all.

It's just the freakin injustice and NEEDLESSNESS that I can't overcome. It never had to happen. It served no purpose. It wasn't an act of God. I quess it can only be classified as EVIL visited upon us. I want someone to pay and that still won't be enough, because we cant' make them suffer like she did and it won't bring her back.


Hi Doctor J.

I hear you. I felt like you do right now, yesterday!

No we can't. You know why?? Because none of us here are depraved, hedonistic, sociopaths.
No one here (I don't think) COULD ever be that callous, cruel or calculated.

I said it a day or so ago, and I will say it again.

The absolute horror of this story is that Tori's had a precious life. It was her HUMAN RIGHT to blossom and grow into a person of her own design. Two sick people tore that away from her. They ripped her away from the arms of the people who loved her for a few MINUTES of hedonistic, obsessive and sociopathic gratification.
How can there be any 'real' justice?

Tori suffered, her family and friends will grieve as long as they live.

I just hope that in our own way, on these boards, we can give Tori's family and friends a bit of comfort, knowing that they have the 'others' behind them.

[Jester]

Just to add...she says she walked away but who the heck knows. She could've participated. Sick! Sick monsters. :cursing:

We know she participated insofar as to lure Tori to Michael's car. She also admitted to knowing perfectly well what Michael intended to do with Tori, as she explained her non-intervention by "she walked away" while he raped her. She claims she didn't commit the murder, and so does Michael. They both knew there would be a murder (since neither of them wanted to get caught kidnapping and raping a nine year old girl) so it matters not what she actually did. She was a participant, present, and did not intervene on Tori's behalf at any time after Tori was lured away from her school on a sunny afternoon.

It is a premeditated murder on her behalf as much as Michael. Could she have allowed Tori to live and identify her as the woman that led Tori to Michael? No. She had as much reason as Michael for wanting Tori to be silenced.

[Jester]

Greetings"
Brooklinite"

As per our other conversations about TLM and her wild goose chase. I still think the police should get her for interfering with the search. So far, TLM has done nothing but cost Canada, allot of money.
I'm wondering what it would take for TLM to say where Tori is located?

What would be the purpose at this point in stalling? I mean at the most she is only facing 25 yrs. The way I understand it from what others have said. The 25 yrs could be way less and TLM, MR both will be fairly young still.
I bet the police are fed up with both TLM and MR.
TLM for her lying about where Tori is at.
Then they have to contend with the drama queen MR.IMO

Moonlite

What if she's not interfering with a police investigation?

What if she led police directly to where she and Michael left Victoria, but Michael moved Tori while Terry Lynn was in jail? What if Tori was put in a dumpster and that dumpster has been emptied several times in the last 7 weeks?

What if she's doing her best to assist with the investigation, but nothing she says makes any difference any more.

[Jester]

Greetings'
AProudMom"

I think MR' is a big cry baby'IMO Plus' if they put MR with the rest of the people. The guy might get hurt and then we would not find out the truth!! Then again' the police might get sued too if they knowing let something happen to him.
I didn't think they allowed shoes strings in jail either?
Moonlite

It seems that Michael cries to manipulate people. He probably threatens suicide for the same reason ... make people cave to his demands using "if you leave me, if you do this, if you do that, I will kill myself." He's probably had a couple of suicide stunts in the past. Maybe we should check with his mom or her boyfriend as to how often Michael has done the crying jag and suicide stunt. It sounds like he was a really obnoxious pr__k at his mother's house shortly before the murder. Why did she let a 28 year old man, her son, sit in his car in the driveway blasting stupid music? Had he made her feel that he would hurt himself if he didn't have his way?

[BJames]

It seems that Michael cries to manipulate people. He probably threatens suicide for the same reason ... make people cave to his demands using "if you leave me, if you do this, if you do that, I will kill myself." He's probably had a couple of suicide stunts in the past. Maybe we should check with his mom or her boyfriend as to how often Michael has done the crying jag and suicide stunt. It sounds like he was a really obnoxious pr__k at his mother's house shortly before the murder. Why did she let a 28 year old man, her son, sit in his car in the driveway blasting stupid music? Had he made her feel that he would hurt himself if he didn't have his way?


Good morning to all :smile:

My guess is when looking further into MR's life and history there is going to be some very interesting information regarding his 'relationships' with other folks....I truly don't believe that this guy just 'snapped'. Even the little bits that have already surfaced show a 'man' reacting to situations (behaving) in a much younger emotional level than can be generally expected of a 28 year old male.
I don't think that this is going to prove to be something out of the blue...whomever does his psych eval will probably see a fairly well established pattern, it will make some sort of sense in the long run.
This isn't any type of 'excuse' for his behaviour...but it may help to see how MR got to where he is today... a little too little, and a lot too late.



Just my opinion of course...

[n/t]

Morning all,

Nothing I could find online about the search. I hope they haven't stopped looking for Tori.

I'm confused and maybe I need more coffee. Where was TLM arrested? Was she already in jail for that other charge? I know that's where everyone assumes she ratted on MR but I wonder if she was out on probation at some point? Would she have helped MR move the body?

Still trying to figure out why didn't find any remains. If that's where the crime was committed, where is Tori? :sad:

[n/t]

Yikes!

A lawyer for the man charged with killing Victoria (Tori) Stafford yesterday slammed Oxford Community Police Chief Ron Fraser for describing the case against his client as "strong" in an interview with Sun Media.

Brennan Smart , one of Michael Thomas Rafferty's lawyers, said it's not for Fraser to decide.

"I think it's not for a police chief to decide," he said. "It's for a trier of fact at a later date to determine the strength of this case."

Smart said he has "resolved to say very little until we get some disclosure of fact," and the Rafferty family is similarly reluctant to speak out.

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1584963

[n/t]

Marc Klaas talks about the "fatal flaw" in the Amber Alert System

Klaas suggested changes are simple. If an otherwise well-adjusted child, with no history or likelihood of running away, doesn't return home on time, an Amber Alert should be issued. Suggestions such a system would be overused, thus making it less effective, are unfounded, he said.

"They say it (could) be overused, but there's no basis for that. Those (cases) don't happen that often."

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580996-sun.html

[cantstandnuts]

Do you think it matters who is signing the petition? I think it's great that there is support for reviewing how the Amber Alert decisions were made in the case of Victoria Stafford, but if the majority of signatures are from foreigners, does it matter?

I really don't know. I'd guess it matters some...in this age, where the internet brings us all closer and makes us all neighbors, I think it matters less than it did 30 years ago, but I'm sure it still matters a bit.
That said, regardless of where the signatures were from, it worked to get the system reviewed at least. I don't know if I put where I was from or not...was that mandatory? I know my name was, but I don't recall if I had to put my location. If it wasn't mandatory, I most likely didn't include it, because I try not to answer anything that isn't required for submission.

[cantstandnuts]

I agree with brooklinite and your posts. She's savvy and playing off the fact that she found out he had a penchant for young girls. In an attempt to lure and keep him, she went out and found the girl. She provided what he wanted most and had never done. Then she killed her, thinking he would forever be tied to her. But then LE took her in. At that point she could not control him or the situation. I hope they check into her A LOT MORE. JMO

Me too. I hope charges get upgraded on her, too. I'd hate to think she gets less than exactly what she deserves and in Canada, it seems people already pay less than the price they should for the crimes they commit, so these need to be very heavy charges with the max penalty, which means she has to be charged and convicted with murder one or she's out in a few years. No offense meant to Canada, btw, but I think we all agree the criminal justice system there is pretty forgiving.

[cantstandnuts]

Gee thanks Moonlite, u made my day.

Maybe tomorrow, Tori will come home to all who loved her in life and those of us who came to love her after she was lost to all.

It's just the freakin injustice and NEEDLESSNESS that I can't overcome. It never had to happen. It served no purpose. It wasn't an act of God. I quess it can only be classified as EVIL visited upon us. I want someone to pay and that still won't be enough, because we cant' make them suffer like she did and it won't bring her back.

:crying: I wasn't expecting to cry so early in the day, but you hit the nail on the head here and it's so incredibly sad and ITA...and I gotta stop reading stuff while at work, people here are going to think I'm a loose cannon.

[Elisse]

I think the reason so little information is coming out at this time is because there is alot more to the story than we realize. I think once the whole story is known many will not be so forgiving to some fo those involved. I just hope that they bring the little angel home soon so that those that love her can have some closure. :sad:

[cantstandnuts]

What if she's not interfering with a police investigation?

What if she led police directly to where she and Michael left Victoria, but Michael moved Tori while Terry Lynn was in jail? What if Tori was put in a dumpster and that dumpster has been emptied several times in the last 7 weeks?

What if she's doing her best to assist with the investigation, but nothing she says makes any difference any more.

No offense to you, but personally I don't care about how hard she might be trying now even if it's true, which I highly doubt.

And here's a thought. If she'd left that poor little 8 year old child alone in the first place, she wouldn't have to try her best to assist now.

She makes me sick and if I had one wish, I would wish that she had done this in Texas so she could die for it.

JMO

[WoodstockMOM]

No offense to you, but personally I don't care about how hard she might be trying now even if it's true, which I highly doubt.

And here's a thought. If she'd left that poor little 8 year old child alone in the first place, she wouldn't have to try her best to assist now.

She makes me sick and if I had one wish, I would wish that she had done this in Texas so she could die for it.

JMO

....AND WOODSTOCK COULDN'T AGREE MORE:thumbsup:

[WoodstockMOM]

Woodstock Then, Woodstock Now



Woodstock calls itself the “Friendly City”. It’s our pride. There is a COW perched at a busy intersection in Woodstock that we call “Countess”. She reminds us of the Pride our City has. Population is approximately 36,000 people and growing. The place where we made small talk with our neighbours – maybe get to know their first name and have a BBQ together and let our children become friends. Parents talk to each other while their children run wild at a park playground. Parents look once in a while to make sure they aren’t hurt or playing too rough. In grocery stores and Wal-mart or Zellers, people of Woodstock nod and say hello. We offer our help to someone in need. We ban together for a cause and we support one another’s accomplishments and sorrows.

On April 8, 2009 Woodstock changed forever.

Woodstock, Ontario became known for being a gossip town, self proclaimed detectives and judges. We no longer showed signs of a once called “Friendly City”. Instead we are divided.

In the early days following Victoria Stafford’s abduction, no woman with her hair pulled back went unnoticed, little girls with blonde hair and blue eyes were examined. Any woman wearing a white sweater or coat became a suspect. Every time a car passes by we glance to see if it matched the car in the police issued video. Our Police department came under scrutiny because an Amber alert wasn’t issued yet Police repeat themselves over and over that it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case never mind the fact that the case didn’t qualify at the time. We don’t hear them or understand because WE have become the judges and the detectives.

Police work around the clock looking for Tori. No retaliation to the ridiculing of their job and efforts came from Police. They work behind the scenes and updates don’t seem to come fast enough.

As time went on the disappearance of this bright, blue eyed 8 year old girl began to separate our City. Both sides, pointing fingers at each other. Both sides had a defence. We were quickly added to a map of large city crimes. The only common ground was the fact that Victoria Stafford, better known as Tori, quickly became a daughter to every resident in the City.

Coffee shops filled with patrons putting opinions on the table. Families in parks discuss how they don’t let their children from their sight anymore. Shoppers don’t nod to say hello, instead we excuse ourselves as we pass by. Children no longer walk to school alone. They can no longer go to their friend’s house around the corner without an adult accompanying them. One split family becomes the topic of every dinner table conversation and almost every phone call. No more internet games and social networks to keep in touch with family and friends. Now we use our internet to read the news, watch a press conference and type out our thoughts of others, search for updates about Tori and see if there are any breaks in the case that prove our theories to be right. We judge how others live.

Flyers are plastered in every business. Reminders of Tori and to watch for her loom the Woodstock terrain. Vigils, bike rally’s, balloon launches and concerts are held to help reunite our community pride and spirit in efforts to Bring Tori Home. From the very young to the very old, with children or without, Tori’s disappearance seems the only thing that matters on every mind in Woodstock. Flowerbeds are late getting planted because we are glued to our televisions and computers in search for answers.

The public lashes out at Tori’s parents misfortune in life in hopes to ease their own minds that a child was stolen from a family because of THEM and not because we failed to protect our own. We needed to hold onto that hope that we weren’t harbouring sick people in our community.

Why Woodstock? We aren’t a large city and shouldn’t have big city crimes. The last real devastation to our city was the tornado in August 1979. How could this happen here? Why Tori? Why the innocent?

On a bright and relatively warm sunny morning, on Wednesday, May 20, 2009, as most of us were getting our children ready for school – news of a break in the case came forth. Hearing that Police had arrested 2 people in connection with Tori’s abduction quickly raised excitement. Maybe we’d get Tori home and then Woodstock can sleep again. Excitement became short lived.

Little did we all know…that 10 hours before, grave news came to light and was shared with Tori’s parents about their daughters’ fate. Warned not to leak the information to the public. By mid morning, our excitement turned to worry, then anger and frustration.

Woodstock got some answers with many questions still hanging heavy in our thoughts. Police announced names of Tori’s abductors and their charges. Very little information was given, but one word stood out and then silence hovered our city. MURDER. But no signs of Tori.

Everywhere in Woodstock – people’s eyes are red and puffy. Mine included. Such a quiet and sombre mood in a bank. Flower shops began to get busy. People were seen huddling near cars downtown listening to the radio waiting for updates. Vans and trucks from media lined the streets once again after being virtually absent for over a week. The sun was shining but Woodstock seemed to house a dark cloud over it. The air was thick and gloomy. Like the calm before a storm.

As evening approached on this day, people were glued to their TV’s watching the news in hopes that Police would report that Tori was found and would be brought home where she would rest for eternity. But sadly, not today.

Tomorrow we’ll waken and that gloom will remain.

In days that follow, red and puffy eyes will have to become part of our daily living. Lost innocence of our children will be felt and provisions made so this can’t ever happen again. At Tori’s expense, and in Her name.

Conversations will have changed course. We’ll no longer seem like detectives and judges. We’ll be a meek and humbled community again. Heart-broken. Tired. Angry. Frustrated. Helpless. We’ll cry for Tori’s family. Whom, we judged in days before. We will cry for Woodstock’s daughter, Tori, who has yet to come home to us. We will pray for our neighbours and we’ll pray for our friends and family. We’ll pray for the Policemen, and those working so hard for this cause, and for THEIR families who have also suffered because of this case.

When Tori comes home to be laid to rest, her short nearly 9 year journey will surely be marked as iconic to our City.

Let’s ban together once again and not allow these criminal and sick minds to raid us of our dignity as a community. Let’s open our circle to all walks of life and embrace each other so that no one, NO ONE stands alone against this heinous crime that was committed upon US ALL. We will all need each other in the coming days so that we can all stand as a Community to lay Woodstock’s Daughter to rest for eternity and commit her spirit to God in Heaven.

Precious thoughts, prayers and strength go to Tori’s loved ones for the coming days ahead. Know that Woodstock lays down their arms and joins you in mourning the loss of a child who has unknowingly marked an era in Woodstock’s STRENGTH as a Community.

Tori, you will be forever remembered as Woodstock’s Little Angel.

[days of yore]

Woodstock Then, Woodstock Now



Woodstock calls itself the “Friendly City”. It’s our pride. There is a COW perched at a busy intersection in Woodstock that we call “Countess”. She reminds us of the Pride our City has. Population is approximately 36,000 people and growing. The place where we made small talk with our neighbours – maybe get to know their first name and have a BBQ together and let our children become friends. Parents talk to each other while their children run wild at a park playground. Parents look once in a while to make sure they aren’t hurt or playing too rough. In grocery stores and Wal-mart or Zellers, people of Woodstock nod and say hello. We offer our help to someone in need. We ban together for a cause and we support one another’s accomplishments and sorrows.

On April 8, 2009 Woodstock changed forever.

Woodstock, Ontario became known for being a gossip town, self proclaimed detectives and judges. We no longer showed signs of a once called “Friendly City”. Instead we are divided.

In the early days following Victoria Stafford’s abduction, no woman with her hair pulled back went unnoticed, little girls with blonde hair and blue eyes were examined. Any woman wearing a white sweater or coat became a suspect. Every time a car passes by we glance to see if it matched the car in the police issued video. Our Police department came under scrutiny because an Amber alert wasn’t issued yet Police repeat themselves over and over that it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case never mind the fact that the case didn’t qualify at the time. We don’t hear them or understand because WE have become the judges and the detectives.

Police work around the clock looking for Tori. No retaliation to the ridiculing of their job and efforts came from Police. They work behind the scenes and updates don’t seem to come fast enough.

As time went on the disappearance of this bright, blue eyed 8 year old girl began to separate our City. Both sides, pointing fingers at each other. Both sides had a defence. We were quickly added to a map of large city crimes. The only common ground was the fact that Victoria Stafford, better known as Tori, quickly became a daughter to every resident in the City.

Coffee shops filled with patrons putting opinions on the table. Families in parks discuss how they don’t let their children from their sight anymore. Shoppers don’t nod to say hello, instead we excuse ourselves as we pass by. Children no longer walk to school alone. They can no longer go to their friend’s house around the corner without an adult accompanying them. One split family becomes the topic of every dinner table conversation and almost every phone call. No more internet games and social networks to keep in touch with family and friends. Now we use our internet to read the news, watch a press conference and type out our thoughts of others, search for updates about Tori and see if there are any breaks in the case that prove our theories to be right. We judge how others live.

Flyers are plastered in every business. Reminders of Tori and to watch for her loom the Woodstock terrain. Vigils, bike rally’s, balloon launches and concerts are held to help reunite our community pride and spirit in efforts to Bring Tori Home. From the very young to the very old, with children or without, Tori’s disappearance seems the only thing that matters on every mind in Woodstock. Flowerbeds are late getting planted because we are glued to our televisions and computers in search for answers.

The public lashes out at Tori’s parents misfortune in life in hopes to ease their own minds that a child was stolen from a family because of THEM and not because we failed to protect our own. We needed to hold onto that hope that we weren’t harbouring sick people in our community.

Why Woodstock? We aren’t a large city and shouldn’t have big city crimes. The last real devastation to our city was the tornado in August 1979. How could this happen here? Why Tori? Why the innocent?

On a bright and relatively warm sunny morning, on Wednesday, May 20, 2009, as most of us were getting our children ready for school – news of a break in the case came forth. Hearing that Police had arrested 2 people in connection with Tori’s abduction quickly raised excitement. Maybe we’d get Tori home and then Woodstock can sleep again. Excitement became short lived.

Little did we all know…that 10 hours before, grave news came to light and was shared with Tori’s parents about their daughters’ fate. Warned not to leak the information to the public. By mid morning, our excitement turned to worry, then anger and frustration.

Woodstock got some answers with many questions still hanging heavy in our thoughts. Police announced names of Tori’s abductors and their charges. Very little information was given, but one word stood out and then silence hovered our city. MURDER. But no signs of Tori.

Everywhere in Woodstock – people’s eyes are red and puffy. Mine included. Such a quiet and sombre mood in a bank. Flower shops began to get busy. People were seen huddling near cars downtown listening to the radio waiting for updates. Vans and trucks from media lined the streets once again after being virtually absent for over a week. The sun was shining but Woodstock seemed to house a dark cloud over it. The air was thick and gloomy. Like the calm before a storm.

As evening approached on this day, people were glued to their TV’s watching the news in hopes that Police would report that Tori was found and would be brought home where she would rest for eternity. But sadly, not today.

Tomorrow we’ll waken and that gloom will remain.

In days that follow, red and puffy eyes will have to become part of our daily living. Lost innocence of our children will be felt and provisions made so this can’t ever happen again. At Tori’s expense, and in Her name.

Conversations will have changed course. We’ll no longer seem like detectives and judges. We’ll be a meek and humbled community again. Heart-broken. Tired. Angry. Frustrated. Helpless. We’ll cry for Tori’s family. Whom, we judged in days before. We will cry for Woodstock’s daughter, Tori, who has yet to come home to us. We will pray for our neighbours and we’ll pray for our friends and family. We’ll pray for the Policemen, and those working so hard for this cause, and for THEIR families who have also suffered because of this case.

When Tori comes home to be laid to rest, her short nearly 9 year journey will surely be marked as iconic to our City.

Let’s ban together once again and not allow these criminal and sick minds to raid us of our dignity as a community. Let’s open our circle to all walks of life and embrace each other so that no one, NO ONE stands alone against this heinous crime that was committed upon US ALL. We will all need each other in the coming days so that we can all stand as a Community to lay Woodstock’s Daughter to rest for eternity and commit her spirit to God in Heaven.

Precious thoughts, prayers and strength go to Tori’s loved ones for the coming days ahead. Know that Woodstock lays down their arms and joins you in mourning the loss of a child who has unknowingly marked an era in Woodstock’s STRENGTH as a Community.

Tori, you will be forever remembered as Woodstock’s Little Angel.

Woodstockmom, that was beautifully written. I feel your pain and am truly sorry for your town having to lose it's innocence. It is very sad that we have to change our 'very being' for these monsters and unfortunately, the true loss of innocence is from our children. We can't even really let them be kids anymore. It's a shame that we have to be brutally honest with them about the reality of such people. Words cannot even describe the loss...

[justmy2cents]

Woodstock mom, that was absolutely beautifully written.

My heart goes out to your community, I'm sorry i am speachless....:crying:

[Gugug]

I heard that. I can't wrap my head around an innocent person threatening suicide in a situation like this...

Without self-pity, there would be no pity at all.

[WoodstockMOM]

Thank you!!

[Gugug]

I understand what you are saying but...I am only speaking about a person you see for counselling not a psychiatrist who will give you medication, yes that doctor is covered but in my situation I did not want to be medicated I strickly needed counselling and that psychologist was not covered by OHIP.

This is a great example of why fundraisers happen when a child goes missing, this type of councelling is not covered here. And believe me therapy is needed for many many many years to come.

I can't phathom what this family is going through. My heart is with them and I pray Victoria is found soon so that the proper grieving and healing can occur. Really right now their emotions are kind of on hold, they aren't able to start the healing process until they know where their child is.

Some time ago, it was stated in the news that the employer of Tori's paternal grandmother offered to pay for counselling for the family. It's a generous offer, because counselling is expensive.

[Gugug]

Re: Insanty
There are some people that are found to be "not criminally responsible" and do not ever go to trial. They are kept on a psych hold in a psychiatric facility and are routinely reviewed. If they are found to be fit for trial then they can go to trial and claim they are not criminally responsible during the offence. There have been some that do not go to trial because they are not fit and locked up in a psych facility to be reviewed. Those people and there have been some have later gone on to recover/be successfully treated for mental illness are are then released back into the community. It's happened. One of the latest cases of somebody not being criminally responsible is Vince Li the "bus beading guy". The victim's mother is trying to get changes to the system and is advocating "Tim's Law". I don't want to hijack this thread so if you want more info just google it.
There was another case where I live where a guy was "treated successfully", released into the community...and let me tell you....he went to the local university which didn't please a lot of people. Years later he killed somebody else.
In summary...our system stinks.

I was hoping no one would mention the Greyhound bus guy.

[Gugug]

Oh, sorry. I really put the cart before the horse there.

This plea will tell us a lot, I think. I wonder if anyone will be sent for psychiatric assessment. I wonder if we will figure out tomorrow if there has been a plea bargain.

If they plead guilty, the public may never learn what they did. A not guilty plea will mean that the evidence will come out at trial.

[Gugug]

Thanks everyone. Altho I have kept up to all that is happening, I missed the board, will know for next time :)

Don't worry. There were lots of us stumbling around in the dark, thinking we'd been banned.

Could CW please put a note on the forum referring posters to the temporary forum next time. We post from all over the world, so a holiday is not a holiday for us.

[Gugug]

Good morning to all :smile:

My guess is when looking further into MR's life and history there is going to be some very interesting information regarding his 'relationships' with other folks....I truly don't believe that this guy just 'snapped'. Even the little bits that have already surfaced show a 'man' reacting to situations (behaving) in a much younger emotional level than can be generally expected of a 28 year old male.
I don't think that this is going to prove to be something out of the blue...whomever does his psych eval will probably see a fairly well established pattern, it will make some sort of sense in the long run.
This isn't any type of 'excuse' for his behaviour...but it may help to see how MR got to where he is today... a little too little, and a lot too late.

Just my opinion of course...

I posted a link a couple of days ago about the kind of people who abduct children. It said that there are always warning signs.

[Gugug]

I really don't know. I'd guess it matters some...in this age, where the internet brings us all closer and makes us all neighbors, I think it matters less than it did 30 years ago, but I'm sure it still matters a bit.
That said, regardless of where the signatures were from, it worked to get the system reviewed at least. I don't know if I put where I was from or not...was that mandatory? I know my name was, but I don't recall if I had to put my location. If it wasn't mandatory, I most likely didn't include it, because I try not to answer anything that isn't required for submission.

It certainly matters in terms of being a public opinion poll, albeit an unscientific one. Politicians listen to public opinion polls.

[Gugug]

Woodstock Then, Woodstock Now



Woodstock calls itself the “Friendly City”. It’s our pride. There is a COW perched at a busy intersection in Woodstock that we call “Countess”. She reminds us of the Pride our City has. Population is approximately 36,000 people and growing. The place where we made small talk with our neighbours – maybe get to know their first name and have a BBQ together and let our children become friends. Parents talk to each other while their children run wild at a park playground. Parents look once in a while to make sure they aren’t hurt or playing too rough. In grocery stores and Wal-mart or Zellers, people of Woodstock nod and say hello. We offer our help to someone in need. We ban together for a cause and we support one another’s accomplishments and sorrows.

On April 8, 2009 Woodstock changed forever.

Woodstock, Ontario became known for being a gossip town, self proclaimed detectives and judges. We no longer showed signs of a once called “Friendly City”. Instead we are divided.

In the early days following Victoria Stafford’s abduction, no woman with her hair pulled back went unnoticed, little girls with blonde hair and blue eyes were examined. Any woman wearing a white sweater or coat became a suspect. Every time a car passes by we glance to see if it matched the car in the police issued video. Our Police department came under scrutiny because an Amber alert wasn’t issued yet Police repeat themselves over and over that it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case never mind the fact that the case didn’t qualify at the time. We don’t hear them or understand because WE have become the judges and the detectives.

Police work around the clock looking for Tori. No retaliation to the ridiculing of their job and efforts came from Police. They work behind the scenes and updates don’t seem to come fast enough.

As time went on the disappearance of this bright, blue eyed 8 year old girl began to separate our City. Both sides, pointing fingers at each other. Both sides had a defence. We were quickly added to a map of large city crimes. The only common ground was the fact that Victoria Stafford, better known as Tori, quickly became a daughter to every resident in the City.

Coffee shops filled with patrons putting opinions on the table. Families in parks discuss how they don’t let their children from their sight anymore. Shoppers don’t nod to say hello, instead we excuse ourselves as we pass by. Children no longer walk to school alone. They can no longer go to their friend’s house around the corner without an adult accompanying them. One split family becomes the topic of every dinner table conversation and almost every phone call. No more internet games and social networks to keep in touch with family and friends. Now we use our internet to read the news, watch a press conference and type out our thoughts of others, search for updates about Tori and see if there are any breaks in the case that prove our theories to be right. We judge how others live.

Flyers are plastered in every business. Reminders of Tori and to watch for her loom the Woodstock terrain. Vigils, bike rally’s, balloon launches and concerts are held to help reunite our community pride and spirit in efforts to Bring Tori Home. From the very young to the very old, with children or without, Tori’s disappearance seems the only thing that matters on every mind in Woodstock. Flowerbeds are late getting planted because we are glued to our televisions and computers in search for answers.

The public lashes out at Tori’s parents misfortune in life in hopes to ease their own minds that a child was stolen from a family because of THEM and not because we failed to protect our own. We needed to hold onto that hope that we weren’t harbouring sick people in our community.

Why Woodstock? We aren’t a large city and shouldn’t have big city crimes. The last real devastation to our city was the tornado in August 1979. How could this happen here? Why Tori? Why the innocent?

On a bright and relatively warm sunny morning, on Wednesday, May 20, 2009, as most of us were getting our children ready for school – news of a break in the case came forth. Hearing that Police had arrested 2 people in connection with Tori’s abduction quickly raised excitement. Maybe we’d get Tori home and then Woodstock can sleep again. Excitement became short lived.

Little did we all know…that 10 hours before, grave news came to light and was shared with Tori’s parents about their daughters’ fate. Warned not to leak the information to the public. By mid morning, our excitement turned to worry, then anger and frustration.

Woodstock got some answers with many questions still hanging heavy in our thoughts. Police announced names of Tori’s abductors and their charges. Very little information was given, but one word stood out and then silence hovered our city. MURDER. But no signs of Tori.

Everywhere in Woodstock – people’s eyes are red and puffy. Mine included. Such a quiet and sombre mood in a bank. Flower shops began to get busy. People were seen huddling near cars downtown listening to the radio waiting for updates. Vans and trucks from media lined the streets once again after being virtually absent for over a week. The sun was shining but Woodstock seemed to house a dark cloud over it. The air was thick and gloomy. Like the calm before a storm.

As evening approached on this day, people were glued to their TV’s watching the news in hopes that Police would report that Tori was found and would be brought home where she would rest for eternity. But sadly, not today.

Tomorrow we’ll waken and that gloom will remain.

In days that follow, red and puffy eyes will have to become part of our daily living. Lost innocence of our children will be felt and provisions made so this can’t ever happen again. At Tori’s expense, and in Her name.

Conversations will have changed course. We’ll no longer seem like detectives and judges. We’ll be a meek and humbled community again. Heart-broken. Tired. Angry. Frustrated. Helpless. We’ll cry for Tori’s family. Whom, we judged in days before. We will cry for Woodstock’s daughter, Tori, who has yet to come home to us. We will pray for our neighbours and we’ll pray for our friends and family. We’ll pray for the Policemen, and those working so hard for this cause, and for THEIR families who have also suffered because of this case.

When Tori comes home to be laid to rest, her short nearly 9 year journey will surely be marked as iconic to our City.

Let’s ban together once again and not allow these criminal and sick minds to raid us of our dignity as a community. Let’s open our circle to all walks of life and embrace each other so that no one, NO ONE stands alone against this heinous crime that was committed upon US ALL. We will all need each other in the coming days so that we can all stand as a Community to lay Woodstock’s Daughter to rest for eternity and commit her spirit to God in Heaven.

Precious thoughts, prayers and strength go to Tori’s loved ones for the coming days ahead. Know that Woodstock lays down their arms and joins you in mourning the loss of a child who has unknowingly marked an era in Woodstock’s STRENGTH as a Community.

Tori, you will be forever remembered as Woodstock’s Little Angel.

It isn't just Woodstock. A couple of years ago, two boys were snatched in rural Saskatchewan in separate incidents. One was in the field outside his family's home. They were taken by a well-known pedophile who seems to be interviewed on the national news quite often, a person who is in and out of the criminal justice system and reoffends whenever he is out.

[brooklinite]

Greetings"
Brooklinite"

As per our other conversations about TLM and her wild goose chase. I still think the police should get her for interfering with the search. So far, TLM has done nothing but cost Canada, allot of money.
I'm wondering what it would take for TLM to say where Tori is located?

What would be the purpose at this point in stalling? I mean at the most she is only facing 25 yrs. The way I understand it from what others have said. The 25 yrs could be way less and TLM, MR both will be fairly young still.
I bet the police are fed up with both TLM and MR.
TLM for her lying about where Tori is at.
Then they have to contend with the drama queen MR.IMO

Moonlite


Hi Moonlite,

At this point, with the very limited info we have, I'm not sure TLM would disclose where Tori was for anything. While physical evidence probably shows that both MR and TLM were involved in this, to what degree each is involved is likely a case of he said, she said. I'm sure TLM is trying to minimize her perceived involvement and label MR as the ringleader.

If she can convince the Crown that she was the lesser of two evils and then supply them with evidence/testimony/etc. that assists in the conviction of MR, she could be looking at a lot less than 25 years, not to mention having charges of a "lighter" nature on her criminal record. (Don't get me started on our justice system. It's far too lenient, doesn't protect the public from repeat offenders and has LE putting themselves on the line to deal with the same people committing the same crimes over and over...:cursing:)

It's just conjecture, but I'm sure TLM thinks it's going to look good on her tomorrow when she has to answer to the charges and her lawyer points out that in the short time since she has been charged, she has already spent five whole days trying her best to help LE find where MR left Tori. Oh yeah, and let's not forget her special "message" to Tori's family. Clearly TLM is just a misguided young woman with a tragic past who gave in to MR's manipulative demands and is feeling tremedously remorseful. (Those who have not yet had their morning coffee, please do note the sarcasm...)

[Orleaner12]

not taking credit to finding this, it was found by another from WS so the credit is their's....but I thought some on here would find it interesting...

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

[Lovethechild]

She makes me sick and if I had one wish, I would wish that she had done this in Texas so she could die for it.

JMO


These 2 A$$wipes need some TEXAS justice!! You kill someone in Texas...they kill ya back.

[brooklinite]

I posted a link a couple of days ago about the kind of people who abduct children. It said that there are always warning signs.

I agree, Gugug. There just about always are signs, I think. Problem is, they aren't always recognized, particularly in a dysfunctional environment. Then there are the cases where people see the signs in retrospect only.

A little OT, but a major indicator of future violent behaviour is the propensity towards harming animals. I've always wanted penalties for animal cruelty, particularly cases involving mutilation and/or death, to be harsher, and for those who commit these types of acts to be more closely monitored. Even if people don't care about animals, they should care about what it means when someone behaves in a violent and deviant way towards them - "graduation" to human beings is but one tiny stepping stone away. I would be intrested to know if either suspect had a history of this.

[Gugug]

Hi Moonlite,

At this point, with the very limited info we have, I'm not sure TLM would disclose where Tori was for anything. While physical evidence probably shows that both MR and TLM were involved in this, to what degree each is involved is likely a case of he said, she said. I'm sure TLM is trying to minimize her perceived involvement and label MR as the ringleader.

If she can convince the Crown that she was the lesser of two evils and then supply them with evidence/testimony/etc. that assists in the conviction of MR, she could be looking at a lot less than 25 years, not to mention having charges of a "lighter" nature on her criminal record. (Don't get me started on our justice system. It's far too lenient, doesn't protect the public from repeat offenders and has LE putting themselves on the line to deal with the same people committing the same crimes over and over...:cursing:)

It's just conjecture, but I'm sure TLM thinks it's going to look good on her tomorrow when she has to answer to the charges and her lawyer points out that in the short time since she has been charged, she has already spent five whole days trying her best to help LE find where MR left Tori. Oh yeah, and let's not forget her special "message" to Tori's family. Clearly TLM is just a misguided young woman with a tragic past who gave in to MR's manipulative demands and is feeling tremedously remorseful. (Those who have not yet had their morning coffee, please do note the sarcasm...)

I think the Canadian public has quickly jumped to the conclusion that we don't want another Karla Homolka deal. Why else does her name come up so often in reference to Tori Stafford's case? To grant such a deal again would be like saying, "The justice system is not going to protect you, folks." Yes, another deal like this would be extremely unwise of anyone who thinks of doing it. Are you listening, members of the Crown?

When I had the misfortune to be at a restaurant where a gunman shot and killed a person, I remember a news item the next day. After it was announced late that night that the young person had succumbed to her wounds, the gunman's house mysteriously caught fire. I don't think it was a coincidence. I don't advocate vigilante action, but I do see the frustration and anger that begets it.

Many years later, things have gotten much worse, with three people being shot and killed in a restaurant just down the street from my child's school, at a time when the school bus would normally have been passing that restaurant. The children could have been caught in the crossfire, but weren't, thanks to a holiday. An innocent adult victim did lose his life, though.

Tori's case is the worst kind of injustice, and I, for one, am fed up with the "discount" mentality of the justice system when it comes to crimes against children. I think the police are fed up with it, too. Please do not add Tori's name to Kristen French's, and Leslie Mahaffy's as those who were discounted by the justice system. Do the right thing this time, members of the Crown: no deal.

[Lovethechild]

from an article:

She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.


TLM seems to habor alot of hatred toward other girls.

[Gugug]

I agree, Gugug. There just about always are signs, I think. Problem is, they aren't always recognized, particularly in a dysfunctional environment. Then there are the cases where people see the signs in retrospect only.

A little OT, but a major indicator of future violent behaviour is the propensity towards harming animals. I've always wanted penalties for animal cruelty, particularly cases involving mutilation and/or death, to be harsher, and for those who commit these types of acts to be more closely monitored. Even if people don't care about animals, they should care about what it means when someone behaves in a violent and deviant way towards them - "graduation" to human beings is but one tiny stepping stone away. I would be intrested to know if either suspect had a history of this.

I think that is why we need to know what happened to Tori and Daryn's dog, and why it ended up at the vet's. I think the dog breeding angle of this story could be the key to your question.

I posted a link a while back about the Humane Societies recognizing the link between violence against animals/people. Having said that, some demented people treat animals with much greater respect than they have for people.

Wanted to add this link: http://www.hare.org/

[brooklinite]

Sigh...even without a plea deal, though, what really happened may only ever amount to TLM's word against RM's, and if she's more convincing, which she apparently has been thus far...she will probably get less time. I hope not. Perhaps enough physical evidence has been or will be found for the case not to have to rely so heavily on the testimony of the suspects.

Regardless of who did what, if TLM and RM were both there, engaging in a criminal act, they should both be held equally responsible for the outcome.

[brooklinite]

I think that is why we need to know what happened to Tori and Daryn's dog, and why it ended up at the vet's. I think the dog breeding angle of this story could be the key to your question.

I posted a link a while back about the Humane Societies recognizing the link between violence against animals/people. Having said that, some demented people treat animals with much greater respect than they have for people.

Wanted to add this link: http://www.hare.org/

Humane Society link sounds interesting. Thanks - will go check it out!

ETA - The Hare link is great, too. Have read Without Conscience for work, and it gives a lot of insight into psychopathy. Very helpful, too, if you have someone in your life like that.

[Gugug]

Humane Society link sounds interesting. Thanks - will go check it out!

ETA - The Hare link is great, too. Have read Without Conscience for work, and it gives a lot of insight into psychopathy. Very helpful, too, if you have someone in your life like that.

Here's a brief summary of the previous checklist:

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html

Wikipedia also has an article on the PCL-R. There are rules, etc., for who can use it to diagnose a P, and how this can be used, but I find it's insight into how this type of person operates.

Sad to say that I recently read an article that said Ps are able to fool not only ordinary folk, but members of the court, due to their ease in telling lies. They can fool everyone. ETA: Michael Woodworth of UBC Okanagan is doing interesting research.

[Gugug]

Humane Society link sounds interesting. Thanks - will go check it out!

ETA - The Hare link is great, too. Have read Without Conscience for work, and it gives a lot of insight into psychopathy. Very helpful, too, if you have someone in your life like that.

Here's a link to another article about that animal cruelty/human abuse research:

http://www.articlearchives.com/crime-law/criminal-offenses-crimes-against/1605024-1.html

[brooklinite]

Here's a brief summary of the previous checklist:

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html

Wikipedia also has an article on the PCL-R. There are rules, etc., for who can use it to diagnose a P, and how this can be used, but I find it's insight into how this type of person operates.

Sad to say that I recently read an article that said Ps are able to fool not only ordinary folk, but members of the court, due to their ease in telling lies. They can fool everyone. ETA: Michael Woodworth of UBC Okanagan is doing interesting research.

Yes, and LD tests, too. Even when P's lie themselves into a corner, they have no fear of getting caught or of the consequences, so they are often able to lie their way back out. A completely specialized set of strategies must be used when interrogating a psychopath. There is no way to appeal to them on an emotional level whatsoever.

[Gugug]

Yes, and LD tests, too. Even when P's lie themselves into a corner, they have no fear of getting caught or of the consequences, so they are often able to lie their way back out. A completely specialized set of strategies must be used when interrogating a psychopath. There is no way to appeal to them on an emotional level whatsoever.

The very talented Edmonton police officers in the Michael White investigation realized this. Their strategy was to hit him with the facts, not feelings. They realized he was unemotional. He didn't even ask to see his daughter, and wanted to go back to work ASAP after his wife disappeared.

There are ways for investigators to use the information from a LD test to tell them what kind of person they are dealing with. That's why it's very valuable as investigative tool to a talented LD technician, even if it can't be used in court as evidence.

Further OT, I wish that judges and justices across Canada would be given extensive training in understanding Ps.

[Orleaner12]

[QUOTE=Gugug;13142469]I think that is why we need to know what happened to Tori and Daryn's dog, and why it ended up at the vet's. I think the dog breeding angle of this story could be the key to your question.



I think the dog story from Tara is just that...a story used as a reason for her connection to TLM...and it may have been the connection at the start but not for breeding...the real reason IMO is the drug connection and no doubt that was taken advantage of...I think if immunity is given to the Mother (Carol) she will testify just what the real relationship was based upon.....I am sure all of that will form part of the defence...of course it is not a reason to abduct and murder a child but if it turns out this was done to settle a drug connection between Tara and the perp (which went terribly wrong) then it does tie Tara & JG into this...and reasons for Daryn to be taken out of that environment....

[Skraps]

Woodstock Then, Woodstock Now
Tori, you will be forever remembered as Woodstock’s Little Angel.


I am sobbing, sobbing.
Thank-you WoodstockMom and God bless you too.
XO

[koawally]

not taking credit to finding this, it was found by another from WS so the credit is their's....but I thought some on here would find it interesting...

http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

From Orleaner12 link: http://www.huntsvilleforester.com/article/136824

She ran away a lot, and one night a bunch of us moms were out looking for her, and we found her hitchhiking down the highway. She did crazy stuff like that. I don’t think she ever felt she had roots. I think she ended up in (a juvenile detention centre) for stabbing a little girl.

[ttcRider]

Humane Society link sounds interesting. Thanks - will go check it out!

ETA - The Hare link is great, too. Have read Without Conscience for work, and it gives a lot of insight into psychopathy. Very helpful, too, if you have someone in your life like that.

just tagging on, hope you don't mind - for our Canadian posters there is an amazing documentary on CBC that airs every few months called I, Psychopath. Great insight here as well.

[M_J]

... someone please find her.

[tarabull1]

http://news.therecord.com/News/article/542900

[snipped...] OXFORD COUNTY -- Twelve officers from the OPP Emergency Response Team are now searching the side of Highway 401 between the Drumbo Road Exit and Highway 2 for the remains of Victoria Stafford.

Oxford Community Police Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland said officers began searching the area this afternoon.

[north-eh]

tarabull1, I just deleted my post you and I had posted the same link at the same time.
Thanks
Please find Tori today....
N

[tarabull1]

tarabull1, I just deleted my post you and I had posted the same link at the same time.
Thanks
Please find Tori today....
N

We are on the same page so to speak & in more ways than one....
PLEASE let today be the day
:rose: for Tori

[Jester]

Good morning to all :smile:

My guess is when looking further into MR's life and history there is going to be some very interesting information regarding his 'relationships' with other folks....I truly don't believe that this guy just 'snapped'. Even the little bits that have already surfaced show a 'man' reacting to situations (behaving) in a much younger emotional level than can be generally expected of a 28 year old male.
I don't think that this is going to prove to be something out of the blue...whomever does his psych eval will probably see a fairly well established pattern, it will make some sort of sense in the long run.
This isn't any type of 'excuse' for his behaviour...but it may help to see how MR got to where he is today... a little too little, and a lot too late.

Just my opinion of course...

I'm pretty sure you're right. His development was stunted somewhere around grade 8, age 14, when he stopped going to school. He didn't have normal social relationships that people develop through high school, and clearly isn't a normal adult. He's comfortable with girls that are almost teenagers, and is attracted to very young girls. I agree that he probably has a long history of hiding his attraction to young girls, but people that know him will be re-evaluating things he said and did over the last few years - and seeing it all in a new light.

[n/t]

... someone please find her.

Ditto :rose:

[north-eh]

I'm wondering what may have caused the OPP to start looking in the Drumbo area now?? A poster on FB says it's only about 20 min.'s from Woodstock.
N

[north-eh]

Here's another editorial.

The unimaginable
http://www.oakvillebeaver.com/opinions/article/257058
<<snipped>>>

Our only hope is that the search for Tori’s body will soon end and that she will finally be laid to rest and her life celebrated in remembrance by all whose lives she touched.
<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
N

[Nen]

It's just gotten to be so frustrating, and heartbreaking. I can't even imagine how hard this is on Tori's family. To know their little girl is out there somewhere and to know that the person(s) responsible won't talk because of their own selfishness.

[moonlite]

It seems that Michael cries to manipulate people. He probably threatens suicide for the same reason ... make people cave to his demands using "if you leave me, if you do this, if you do that, I will kill myself." He's probably had a couple of suicide stunts in the past. Maybe we should check with his mom or her boyfriend as to how often Michael has done the crying jag and suicide stunt. It sounds like he was a really obnoxious pr__k at his mother's house shortly before the murder. Why did she let a 28 year old man, her son, sit in his car in the driveway blasting stupid music? Had he made her feel that he would hurt himself if he didn't have his way?

Greetings'
Jester"

I agree with you. I still think MR is a huge drama queen!!!
What I mean by that' he will doing anything to get attention and control the situation.
I will not be surprised if he does something dramatic during the court proceedings!!
IMO' his mother has enabled MR and his past actions while at her home.
If it were me' I'd kicked his butt and said get a job' go to school' do something with your life!!

Moonlite

[Nen]

I agree with you. I still think MR is a huge drama queen!!!
What I mean by that' he will doing anything to get attention and control the situation.
I will not be surprised if he does something dramatic during the court proceedings!!

I 100% agree

[moonlite]

I think the reason so little information is coming out at this time is because there is alot more to the story than we realize. I think once the whole story is known many will not be so forgiving to some fo those involved. I just hope that they bring the little angel home soon so that those that love her can have some closure. :sad:

Greetings"
Elisse"

I agree with you. I think everyone involved should be charged. But so far that has not happened.IMO I don't think the police were wrong in their assumptions. I just think the police don't have the eveidence.IMO

Moonlite

[n/t]

I apologize if this was already posted. Interesting that they'll appear by video and not in person. Too afraid to face the family members? Cowards!!! Also a description of Highway 401 where they searched today.

Accused in Ont. girl's murder to appear in court Thursday
http://www.canada.com/news/Accused+girl+murder+appear+court+Thursday/1634987/story.html

[moonlite]

Marc Klaas talks about the "fatal flaw" in the Amber Alert System

Klaas suggested changes are simple. If an otherwise well-adjusted child, with no history or likelihood of running away, doesn't return home on time, an Amber Alert should be issued. Suggestions such a system would be overused, thus making it less effective, are unfounded, he said.

"They say it (could) be overused, but there's no basis for that. Those (cases) don't happen that often."

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/27/9580996-sun.html

Greetings'
N/T'

Thanks for posting the link. IMO' there never could be enough Amber Alert's issued. I'd rather see allot, then very few!!! One child saved is worth it!!

Moonlite

[Gugug]

I apologize if this was already posted. Interesting that they'll appear by video and not in person. Too afraid to face the family members? Cowards!!! Also a description of Highway 401 where they searched today.

Accused in Ont. girl's murder to appear in court Thursday
http://www.canada.com/news/Accused+girl+murder+appear+court+Thursday/1634987/story.html

The police have a duty to protect the accused (who are only accused, and have not been found guilty yet). I'm sure they have made this decision after the confrontation at the first court appearance.

[Gugug]

just tagging on, hope you don't mind - for our Canadian posters there is an amazing documentary on CBC that airs every few months called I, Psychopath. Great insight here as well.

I have never heard of that series. Thank you.

[brooklinite]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/27/the-search-for-tori-stafford-whats-taking-so-long/

Article from Macleans. Apparently, TLM's (strategically?) fruitless search is generating the kind of questions I feared it might:

"Does she actually know where the body was dumped, or was she told the location afterwards? Was she ever at the scene of the crime, or was she waiting in a car nearby?"

ETA - It may be premature to say this now, but it's sounding less and less like TLM's charges will be upgraded. There is still much we don't know, though.

[brooklinite]

just tagging on, hope you don't mind - for our Canadian posters there is an amazing documentary on CBC that airs every few months called I, Psychopath. Great insight here as well.

Thanks ttcRider. Checked the CBC schedule and it was on a week ago. :sad: I'll be sure to catch it the next time. It looks fascinating.

[n/t]

Greetings'
N/T'

Thanks for posting the link. IMO' there never could be enough Amber Alert's issued. I'd rather see allot, then very few!!! One child saved is worth it!!

Moonlite

I agree 100% moonlite!

[Nen]

I've never heard of that show, so thanks for the info!

I usually only watch CBC for HNIC or Coronation Street lol

[puppyraiser]

That`s very true. Remember the little town of Chatham, not far from Woodstock, probably also under Oxford Police, had the sad case of 22-month-old Donovan Clubb. Even though it was his mom`s boyfriend who took him on a 3-day fishing trip (!!) and she consented, an Amber Alert was issued when the boyfriend returned without the toddler and then escaped the scene. The toddler`s remains were found soon after, burnt in a wooden area pretty far from home. His mom had just split up with that boyfriend and when he returned without the toddler, he told her her little son was sleeping in the basement. She did not check on her son and only realized around 11am the next morning he was not there. All I know is her ex-boyfriend will be out in another 12 years or so. And she and the biological father of the toddler are swirling around on Facebook with party pictures like they never lost a precious child. Maybe that`s the way younger parents grieve today. Pour it all out on FB. Anyway, Chatham lost its innocence as well but it has not been talked about much.

The Donovan Clubb investigation was headed by the Chatham-Kent Police. The OPP also have a detachment in Chatham but they are responsible for the Provincial Highways and Waterways. That was a sad case...I remember it well. There was also a previous child abduction/murder in Chatham a number of years ago-Danny Smith. His murderer showed all the classic signs of increasing violence towards animals and people. The police were not surprised when he finally murdered a child...the Young Offenders Act did nothing to protect society from this person.

[n/t]

The police have a duty to protect the accused (who are only accused, and have not been found guilty yet). I'm sure they have made this decision after the confrontation at the first court appearance.

I don't think the police decide. I believe their lawyers are the ones who submit their request to the court for their clients not to physically show up in court. Yah....so I stick to my original opinion that they're cowards. Too bad Tori didn't have a choice to get the same protection as these evil monsters.

[n/t]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/27/the-search-for-tori-stafford-whats-taking-so-long/

Article from Macleans. Apparently, TLM's (strategically?) fruitless search is generating the kind of questions I feared it might:

"Does she actually know where the body was dumped, or was she told the location afterwards? Was she ever at the scene of the crime, or was she waiting in a car nearby?"

ETA - It may be premature to say this now, but it's sounding less and less like TLM's charges will be upgraded. There is still much we don't know, though.


Ohhh...she knows alright. She didn't get the plea deal she wanted. She did get a few helicopter rides and probably a few Burger King menu choices.

[Nen]

I strongly believe that both these suspects know exactly where this poor little girl is. Neither will tell for sure because they know the sooner she's found the more evidence/dna will still be there. Neither want that.

Of course innocent until proven guilty by my opinion is both are guilty as sin.

[n/t]

I strongly believe that both these suspects know exactly where this poor little girl is. Neither will tell for sure because they know the sooner she's found the more evidence/dna will still be there. Neither want that.

Of course innocent until proven guilty by my opinion is both are guilty as sin.

Exactly...

[brooklinite]

Ohhh...she knows alright. She didn't get the plea deal she wanted. She did get a few helicopter rides and probably a few Burger King menu choices.

I'm sure she does. But I don't like where those media questions are going. It sounds like TLM is having moderate success in making some people underestimate the degree of her involvement.

[Jester]

Greetings'
Jester"

I agree with you. I still think MR is a huge drama queen!!!
What I mean by that' he will doing anything to get attention and control the situation.
I will not be surprised if he does something dramatic during the court proceedings!!
IMO' his mother has enabled MR and his past actions while at her home.
If it were me' I'd kicked his butt and said get a job' go to school' do something with your life!!

Moonlite

I was at first confused by the crying at the time of the arrest, but it's probably his default reaction to not getting his way ... just like a child. You're right ... I bet he will act like a child during court proceedings. I'm sure that his mother enabled him ... allowing a 14 year old to miss so much school that he only completes one credit in grade 8? That's unbelievable. She then let him move back into her home two years ago, where he proceeded to ruin her life, and push away a man that most likely loved her for 6 years.

She should have thrown him out of the house after a month, or required rent and food costs. Maybe she was afraid of him, or maybe she preferred to have him act like an overgrown teenager. Whatever it was, she's got to be very sorry today.

[n/t]

I'm sure she does. But I don't like where those media questions are going. It sounds like TLM is having moderate success in making some people underestimate the degree of her involvement.

I think it's the same 'ole belief by society that a woman isn't capable of such a heinous crime. The experts need to start waking up to what's really happening. Woman can be just as evil as men....and perhaps worse.

We had the sob story from Homolka of how she was abused by Bernardo. We'll get the same cr@p here. We're already starting to see the stories about her difficult upbringing, unhappy childhood and her drug/alcohol addicted mother...blah blah blah.

[Jester]

I'm sure she does. But I don't like where those media questions are going. It sounds like TLM is having moderate success in making some people underestimate the degree of her involvement.

I doubt the media will influence the prosecutor's decision about charges. At first I thought that TL was genuinely trying to help, then I thought maybe she couldn't help because the body was moved, and now I'm starting to think that after talking to a lawyer, she realized that leading the police to the body would probably guarantee first degree murder charges. I am more in agreement with everyone else here now ... Terry Lynn does not want to help because she doesn't want her charges upgraded.

[Jester]

I think it's the same 'ole belief by society that a woman isn't capable of such a heinous crime. The experts need to start waking up to what's really happening. Woman can be just as evil as men....and perhaps worse.

We had the sob story from Homolka of how she was abused by Bernardo. We'll get the same cr@p here. We're already starting to see the stories about her difficult upbringing, unhappy childhood and her drug/alcohol addicted mother...blah blah blah.

Some prosecutors will look at her blah blah blah childhood as a reason to keep her away from the public. Clearly she's inclined to lash out at young children, so she's dangerous. Her blah blah blah childhood neither explains nor excuses the choices she makes as an adult. I do, however, think the media will exploit with the topic.

[n/t]

Fantino says OPP working hard to locate Tori's body

An "extraordinary number of resources" is being used to find the remains of missing Woodstock girl Victoria Stafford, says the head of Ontario Provincial Police.

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino told CTV Toronto on Wednesday that the Stafford murder case is "complex" and that investigators are doing what they can to bring closure to the girl's family.

"There are a lot of people dedicated to this -- a lot of people committed to bringing closure to this as quickly as we can," he said in an interview from Fergus, Ont. where police have concentrated their search for the past week.

"We can't bring Tori back but we certainly hope to return her remains to her family and proceed with the court case," he said.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090527/tori_search_090527/20090527/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[Gugug]

I don't think the police decide. I believe their lawyers are the ones who submit their request to the court for their clients not to physically show up in court. Yah....so I stick to my original opinion that they're cowards. Too bad Tori didn't have a choice to get the same protection as these evil monsters.

I don't disagree with your opinion of them.

[Gugug]

Some prosecutors will look at her blah blah blah childhood as a reason to keep her away from the public. Clearly she's inclined to lash out at young children, so she's dangerous. Her blah blah blah childhood neither explains nor excuses the choices she makes as an adult. I do, however, think the media will exploit with the topic.

We might hear the old fetal alcohol/crack baby excuse. I know nothing about the woman's birth mother, but this seems to be a popular excuse now.

[n/t]

Any opinion on what he means by "complex"?

To me, it's a kidnap/murder case with perhaps evidence of it being of a sexual nature. What's so complex about it? I don't understand why it would be complex? He has 2 people charged. :shrug:

[justmy2cents]

Some time ago, it was stated in the news that the employer of Tori's paternal grandmother offered to pay for counselling for the family. It's a generous offer, because counselling is expensive.

On that note, I went to a marriage counceller (sp), but really they are all the same and it was $85/hour..... She was really great, it was the best money I ever spent.

[n/t]

Let`s hope with "complex" he doesn`t mean that there is more than those two suspects involved. After all, shortly after the arrests, OPP stated those were the only arrests FOR NOW. I don`t know if they plan on doing another drug bust after all this and that`s what the "complexitiy" refers to? Or yet another person involved in the abduction? Don`t know what to think.


Me either. It's odd because they said they had a good case against them but now it's become complex. Whatever that means. I just hope they know what the heck they're doing.

[cantstandnuts]

I think it's the same 'ole belief by society that a woman isn't capable of such a heinous crime. The experts need to start waking up to what's really happening. Woman can be just as evil as men....and perhaps worse.

We had the sob story from Homolka of how she was abused by Bernardo. We'll get the same cr@p here. We're already starting to see the stories about her difficult upbringing, unhappy childhood and her drug/alcohol addicted mother...blah blah blah.


I'm so sick of the hard upbringing, unhappy childhood excuse. Means nothing. Many of us had a tough one, I have read the stories here. But most of us would never in a million years do anything even close to what she has done (not that we know the full extent of it yet) and so she should get no pass for that...except because of where she is, she may. :cursing:

[justmy2cents]

I apologize if this was already posted. Interesting that they'll appear by video and not in person. Too afraid to face the family members? Cowards!!! Also a description of Highway 401 where they searched today.

Accused in Ont. girl's murder to appear in court Thursday
http://www.canada.com/news/Accused+girl+murder+appear+court+Thursday/1634987/story.html

They are appearing through video because they are not held in Woodstock.

Just catching up don't know if this was posted yet:wink:

[justmy2cents]

I'm so sick of the hard upbringing, unhappy childhood excuse. Means nothing. Many of us had a tough one, I have read the stories here. But most of us would never in a million years do anything even close to what she has done (not that we know the full extent of it yet) and so she should get no pass for that...except because of where she is, she may. :cursing:

you said it perfectly.............bravo:thumbsup:

[ttcRider]

I have never heard of that series. Thank you.

Hi Gugug! Its not a series, its a documentary. It was on last week on CBC's Hot Docs.
Theres a really good out take on the CBC site. Just google it. :wink:

[n/t]

Thursday, the two suspects in Stafford's murder - 28-year-old Michael Rafferty and 18-year-old alleged accomplice Terri-Lynne McClintic - will be making a court appearance via video link, a measure that was necessitated by violent outbursts from Stafford's family members at the local courthouse following their arrests a week earlier.

And as the investigation and search continue, a forensics team remains inside McClintic's home. Her lawyer, Jeanine LeRoy, spoke to CityNews Wednesday, noting she'd conversed with her client a night earlier but stopping short of offering comment about her emotional state.

"We're planning to seek an adjournment in order for the police to complete the investigation and to provide the Crown and then me with disclosure," she said.

"I suspect it (the adjournment) is in the nature of weeks as opposed to days."

LeRoy added she still hasn't spoken to Rafferty's legal representation, but hoped to before week's end.

It's also believed the Crown will separate the cases and try the suspects individually.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34904.aspx

[n/t]

In law, adjournment means to suspend proceedings to another time or place, or to end them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjournment

:angry:

[n/t]

Meanwhile, sources told The Free Press the Honda Civic belonging to accused Michael Rafferty was seen in a surveillance video a few minutes after Tori and her abductor walked along Fyfe Avenue.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/27/9592696.html

[brooklinite]

Has anyone read anything to indicate why police have started searching that new area near the 401 and Hwy. 2? It's a significant distance from the main search area, so LE obviously has a compelling reason to look there. Doubt anything's been released, but am wondering if I missed that today.

[north-eh]

Meanwhile, sources told The Free Press the Honda Civic belonging to accused Michael Rafferty was seen in a surveillance video a few minutes after Tori and her abductor walked along Fyfe Avenue.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/27/9592696.html

Yes thank you n/t. First time I noticed that the car was spray painted "after" it was seen on the video.
I hadn't picked that up before. :huh:
N

[tarabull1]

Has anyone read anything to indicate why police have started searching that new area near the 401 and Hwy. 2? It's a significant distance from the main search area, so LE obviously has a compelling reason to look there. Doubt anything's been released, but am wondering if I missed that today.

I myself haven't seen anything reported BUT you do pose an interesting question, I wondered too.

Do you suppose someone has since come forward saying they saw MR's vehicle on the side of the 401 somewhere at some point since April 8th?

:confused:

[Skraps]

On an o/t positive note, a man investigating the Madelaine McCann case firmly believes the little girl is still alive and being held by someone who wants to have a little girl to love.

http://www.midcheshirechronicle.co.uk/mid-cheshire-news/local-mid-cheshire-news/2009/05/18/former-cheshire-policeman-hunting-missing-madeleine-mccann-believes-she-s-still-alive-59067-23650294/

Just to imagine little Maddie's mom getting to hold her daughter again.... and for Tara.

[north-eh]

Has anyone read anything to indicate why police have started searching that new area near the 401 and Hwy. 2? It's a significant distance from the main search area, so LE obviously has a compelling reason to look there. Doubt anything's been released, but am wondering if I missed that today.

I was asking the same question somewhere up thread earlier today. Perhaps they found some clothing or something that Tori had with her when she abducted, like her Brat pack purse or something? Hard to say something sent them in that direction.:confused:
N

[doctor_J]

Really curious about the "complex" case comment made by commish. The story we know, as horrific as it is, is not complex. There's got to be a lot we don't know. Can't help but wonder if more arrests are coming, maybe to do with the cover-up or the motive.

I think everyone is right on about the "abusive bad childhood, alcoholic, crack mom, fetal alcohol, mom's multiple BF's abused me" defense building up. There will be so many bleeding hearts that jump on that bandwagon. Also plenty of hired gun shrinks ready to plead her case. I never believed Karla H.'s excuse even before the tapes were found. I'm always considered cold hearted, I think, because I rarely, if ever buy that excuse. Maybe it's because I've rarely heard of anyone that had it worse than I did. Completely wiped out my sympathy for any ADULT that chooses to take her/his poor history out on an innocent. There were many, many Melissa Huckaby defenders immediately upon finding out she "might" have been counseled for depression.

Great comment today, btw.

[brooklinite]

Thanks tarabull1 and north-eh for your posts regarding the new search area by the 401. Just found another article about it:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jgSiKcgsiCu-EvRfXJ0GwhMom03w

Referring to Const. Maitland:

"She said police were not searching the area as the result of a tip, but because it "just makes sense" to comb the area along Canada's busiest highway." :huh:

[north-eh]

Really curious about the "complex" case comment made by commish. The story we know, as horrific as it is, is not complex. There's got to be a lot we don't know. Can't help but wonder if more arrests are coming, maybe to do with the cover-up or the motive.

I think everyone is right on about the "abusive bad childhood, alcoholic, crack mom, fetal alcohol, mom's multiple BF's abused me" defense building up. There will be so many bleeding hearts that jump on that bandwagon. Also plenty of hired gun shrinks ready to plead her case. I never believed Karla H.'s excuse even before the tapes were found. I'm always considered cold hearted, I think, because I rarely, if ever buy that excuse. Maybe it's because I've rarely heard of anyone that had it worse than I did. Completely wiped out my sympathy for any ADULT that chooses to take her/his poor history out on an innocent. There were many, many Melissa Huckaby defenders immediately upon finding out she "might" have been counseled for depression.

Great comment today, btw.

Hi doctor_J you have no idea how much I have been wondering this very thing myself. I think a lot will be revealed by the time this gets to trial and even before for that matter.
N

[doctor_J]

Thanks tarabull1 and north-eh for your posts regarding the new search area by the 401. Just found another article about it:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jgSiKcgsiCu-EvRfXJ0GwhMom03w

Referring to Const. Maitland:

"She said police were not searching the area as the result of a tip, but because it "just makes sense" to comb the area along Canada's busiest highway." :huh:

WOW, that's what's called a last resort, we don't have a clue approach.

[Nen]

So basically the girl told them nothing at all of any significance in regards to finding Tori's remains. Regardless of weather changing she should still have a general idea of where she's located. She probably said she knew so she could get some time alone with LE and spin her innocent victim act.

Sorry if this has already been said but I haven't been on in a while so there's just too much to go back and read!

[doctor_J]

Possibilities:

1) Terri never knew where the body was discarded. She was only told by Micheal.

2) Terri knew because she was there and helped but Micheal moved the body after Terri's arrest, fearing she'd tell.
If true: a) Micheal's not as wimpy as he appeared. Moving a days old body exposed to elements and animals is no wimpy job or b) someone helped him. Someone who loves him and has always covered for him, maybe "mommy"? Or someone with experience in criminal convictions who wanted to help save Terri, someone like Carol?.

3) Terri knows and helped but the whole time she "assisted" was a farce in which she faked cooperation in order to a) prevent a greater charge or get some consideration or b) distance herself from the crime by appearing to have less involvement, not even having been present for the murder and disposal. Leading Le to believe that although she gave it her best effort, she could only work with what she'd been told by Micheal or c) she "assisted" on a lark, just for the fun of the wild goose chase or d) she did it to buy time for evidence to deteriorate.

Just trying to make a complex case out of a crime that appears straightforward. Anyone think of a number 4?

[ttcRider]

Possibilities:

1) Terri never knew where the body was discarded. She was only told by Micheal.

2) Terri knew because she was there and helped but Micheal moved the body after Terri's arrest, fearing she'd tell.
If true: a) Micheal's not as wimpy as he appeared. Moving a days old body exposed to elements and animals is no wimpy job or b) someone helped him. Someone who loves him and has always covered for him, maybe "mommy"? Or someone with experience in criminal convictions who wanted to help save Terri, someone like Carol?.

3) Terri knows and helped but the whole time she "assisted" was a farce in which she faked cooperation in order to a) prevent a greater charge or get some consideration or b) distance herself from the crime by appearing to have less involvement, not even having been present for the murder and disposal. Leading Le to believe that although she gave it her best effort, she could only work with what she'd been told by Micheal or c) she "assisted" on a lark, just for the fun of the wild goose chase or d) she did it to buy time for evidence to deteriorate.

Just trying to make a complex case out of a crime that appears straightforward. Anyone think of a number 4?

Don't have a number 4 but wouldn't cadaver dogs hit on your #2? :confused:

[doctor_J]

Don't have a number 4 but wouldn't cadaver dogs hit on your #2? :confused:

They certainly would. We don't know they didn't though. LE could now know the body was moved due to cadaver dogs tracing the body but no body found. They would have probably found other evidence at first dump site, like hair, fibers and decomp. cells. This would certainly make the case more "complex" than it seems.

[doctor_J]

I got a #4.

4)Terri doesn't know because she's innocent. :rolleyes:

[Hollyhocks]

I got a #4.

4)Terri doesn't know because she's innocent. :rolleyes:


Har Har har Doctor J!

How about #4 being following her murder they both got as high as kites and can't remember the specifics of WHERE they left poor Tori??

[doctor_J]

Har Har har Doctor J!

How about #4 being following her murder they both got as high as kites and can't remember the specifics of WHERE they left poor Tori??

I like your #4 much better!

[4greatkids]

Is there any talk that volunteers may be needed to search. I mean it's not like we could do any worse than TLM. I'm not thar far and would be there as soon as needed.
I wanted to hop in my van weeks ago and go looking on my own, but never being there before I wouldn't know where to park, and where to start walking while looking on the ground, without locals noticing my odd behavior and calling the police. If it was in a group and the police knew that would be best because I know about possibility of destroying evidence by tramping through search areas

[Gugug]

Any opinion on what he means by "complex"?

To me, it's a kidnap/murder case with perhaps evidence of it being of a sexual nature. What's so complex about it? I don't understand why it would be complex? He has 2 people charged. :shrug:

Does he mean shades of Cornwall?