Victoria (Tori) Stafford, 8, Canada, Arrests

[Jester]

Continuing the discussion here ...

she did and also said it was two or 3 times. Apparently the people who saw JG over there numerous times was after tori's abduction when he went over a few times to see if there was anything that showed tori was there.

Her description of TLM's mother was right on to. "vulgar"

damn and sounds like TLM had the young dog in that sling thing around her shown in the video :cursing: Tara said Tori would have been all over the puppy if that was the case and gone willingly.

i am so darned mad!!! not only did Tara and JG give the name to cops, but the neighbors as well and they did NOTHING about it.

imo

I'm not going to assume that the police did nothing. We don't know what the police were doing, or what their strategy was. We know that TLM's name was given to police early on, and that she was picked up on an unrelated warrant shortly after her name was provided. Police had little to connect TLM to the abduction other than the video tape. They put TLM in a police gait lineup based on that evidence. Apparently that, and the fact that she learned (while in jail) that her boyfriend had a new girlfriend, were enough to break her.

What more could police have done? They had no grounds for a search warrant of Carol's house, they had no connection to Rafferty. The employees at the school were oblivious to who was hanging around the school with puppies. There was no reason to pursue TLM without more information. Police searched across the country for Tori, so they were not completely tunnel visioned. They did the investigation, arrested the right people, and now it's hoped that Tori's remains will be found.

[Jester]

For those who haven't followed the case:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/22/police-search-tori459.html

[Orleaner12]

big Oxy drug bust in Woodstock...read it in the London Free Press..

[Orleaner12]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541586.html

[n/t]

big Oxy drug bust in Woodstock...read it in the London Free Press..

Here's the link


14 charged in Woodstock Oxy probe
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541586.html

[n/t]

Thanks for the thread Jester. I hope the others know about the Holiday Forum. Most are new posters.

I think I'll start sending PM's letting them know.

[Jester]

Thanks for the thread Jester. I hope the others know about the Holiday Forum. Most are new posters.

I think I'll start sending PM's letting them know.

Good idea. Everyone's probably wondering what happened and why it's all locked up.

[Orleaner12]

great idea N/T...was wondering how to do that as most that are new to this site may not know how the holiday threads work...

[Hope4Tori]

Here's the link


14 charged in Woodstock Oxy probe
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541586.html


Hey n/t and Orleaner and Jester - I got lost and then I thought I must have been banned 'cause al of a sudden the buttons to post on the last thread just disappeared and I couldn't reply - then I went to the links thread and the post button is missing there too - finally I found this thread but I have no idea what's up??

Here is the link for Tori's Law re changes to the Amber Alert -it's an online petition form:

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

May Tori be found and returned to her family tonight!:wub:

[mrsmcgoo]

Continuing the discussion here ...



I'm not going to assume that the police did nothing. We don't know what the police were doing, or what their strategy was. We know that TLM's name was given to police early on, and that she was picked up on an unrelated warrant shortly after her name was provided. Police had little to connect TLM to the abduction other than the video tape. They put TLM in a police gait lineup based on that evidence. Apparently that, and the fact that she learned (while in jail) that her boyfriend had a new girlfriend, were enough to break her.

What more could police have done? They had no grounds for a search warrant of Carol's house, they had no connection to Rafferty. The employees at the school were oblivious to who was hanging around the school with puppies. There was no reason to pursue TLM without more information. Police searched across the country for Tori, so they were not completely tunnel visioned. They did the investigation, arrested the right people, and now it's hoped that Tori's remains will be found.

I guess we won't know full what LE were doing exactly. I do however think they failed on many degrees of this case. The neighbor, who reported that the lady walking with Tara looked like TLM also knew she had a white coat, I would think that alone would have been enough for issuing a search warrant, but then they even knew that her hair was changed right around the time that the video was released. There should have been arrests quicker, homes should have been searched immediately.

In regards to the Amber Alert, probably one of their biggest goofs. The LE focused on Tara, led the public to believe it was Tara, and did nothing to defend her when perhaps they knew the difference.

I am not happy with how this was handled at all.

JMO

[Orleaner12]

H4T, I believe Monday is Memorial Day in US and as this site is a US site on any of the holidays they always open up one common thread..

[Hope4Tori]

Thank you n/t -:wub: just as I posted my last message I got yours!

Happy Memorial Day weekend to our American pals! Thanks Jester for making this temporary thread for Tori!

I think I'm going to read and wait to post until I can get more facts . . .but I know I've said that before so don't be shocked if I jump right back in! :w00t:

Hoping Tori is found and reunited with her family tonight!:wub:

[n/t]

Hey n/t and Orleaner and Jester - I got lost and then I thought I must have been banned 'cause al of a sudden the buttons to post on the last thread just disappeared and I couldn't reply - then I went to the links thread and the post button is missing there too - finally I found this thread but I have no idea what's up??

Here is the link for Tori's Law re changes to the Amber Alert -it's an online petition form:

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

May Tori be found and returned to her family tonight!:wub:

Glad you found us. I sent you a PM letting you know. Just ignore it. lol.


I'll check out the online petition after notifying the rest of the Tori posters who may still be wondering what's going on with the forum being locked.

[Orleaner12]

I guess we won't know full what LE were doing exactly. I do however think they failed on many degrees of this case. The neighbor, who reported that the lady walking with Tara looked like TLM also knew she had a white coat, I would think that alone would have been enough for issuing a search warrant, but then they even knew that her hair was changed right around the time that the video was released. There should have been arrests quicker, homes should have been searched immediately.

In regards to the Amber Alert, probably one of their biggest goofs. The LE focused on Tara, led the public to believe it was Tara, and did nothing to defend her when perhaps they knew the difference.

I am not happy with how this was handled at all.

JMO


you know I'm thinking that the OPP did get this right in regards to TLM...they hauled her in on Easter Sunday on another charge (was this a pretense)...we will never know...and they waited for her to crack or connect her to the other perp...maybe they put the rumour out there that he was dating someone else......

[n/t]

I sent PM's to the ones I think are new to this board. I hope I didn't miss anyone.

[Hope4Tori]

H4T, I believe Monday is Memorial Day in US and as this site is a US site on any of the holidays they always open up one common thread..

Thanks Orleaner!! :smile:- I'm happy to to know I wasn't lost - or worse booted!:w00t:

n/t pm'd me and others - so I think more will be finding us here again soon!

I'm off for a break to get dinner . . .

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[n/t]

Do any of you know if online petitions hold any weight when it comes to changing policies as in this case?

I had planned to take 3 days in June to go to Ottawa.

My plan was to send the RCMP an email and request an appointment to see them. I want to know what is required to change the Amber Alert policy and was hoping they would help guide me and let me know what needs to be done.

June 22, 23 & 24th. are the days I already have requested time off from work.

Any Canadians wanting to join me, please PM me.

[lizzard]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541586.html

Thanks for the link, Orleaner12. I know the article says a 3 month investigation, but am I the only one who thinks Miss Terri is singing like the proverbial canary??

[mrsmcgoo]

you know I'm thinking that the OPP did get this right in regards to TLM...they hauled her in on Easter Sunday on another charge (was this a pretense)...we will never know...and they waited for her to crack or connect her to the other perp...maybe they put the rumour out there that he was dating someone else......

Honestly, I hope you are right.

But the thing that bothers me and leaves me to wonder if they knew anything, was that if they were connecting the dots with TLM, they did nothing to protect Tara. I got the impression very early that Tara was the main suspect and LE could have easily stepped up for her. That was something they never did.

My biggest fear, is the deal. I am praying there is no deal. Bad memories of Karla Homolka, I can't stop thinking of the comparrison.

JMO

[n/t]

you know I'm thinking that the OPP did get this right in regards to TLM...they hauled her in on Easter Sunday on another charge (was this a pretense)...we will never know...and they waited for her to crack or connect her to the other perp...maybe they put the rumour out there that he was dating someone else......

Maybe but Easter was April 12th. I'd like to know what they did between April 12th. and May 19th? Did they still think Tara was involved? They were attending every single one of her PC's and there's no doubt they suspected her. Even setting up the limo ride. I haven't seen that confirmed but someone (I believe it was VC2) said it was in a Globe&Mail article.

Were they just sitting back waiting for someone to crack? We know they checked landfills and apparently checked homes in the area. :shrug:

[mrsmcgoo]

Do any of you know if online petitions hold any weight when it comes to changing policies as in this case?

I had planned to take 3 days in June to go to Ottawa.

My plan was to send the RCMP an email and request an appointment to see them. I want to know what is required to change the Amber Alert policy and was hoping they would help guide me and let me know what needs to be done.

June 22, 23 & 24th. are the days I already have requested time off from work.

Any Canadians wanting to join me, please PM me.


I will gladly help anyway I can, but I wouldn't be able to go to Ottawa. Anything I can do from here, I will do. Just let me know.

[n/t]

I will gladly help anyway I can, but I wouldn't be able to go to Ottawa. Anything I can do from here, I will do. Just let me know.

Thanks! I know you're way out East lol. I'm only an hour away from Ottawa. :smile:

[Orleaner12]

Maybe but Easter was April 12th. I'd like to know what they did between April 12th. and May 19th? Did they still think Tara was involved? They were attending every single one of her PC's and there's no doubt they suspected her. Even setting up the limo ride. I haven't seen that confirmed but someone (I believe it was VC2) said it was in a Globe&Mail article.

Were they just sitting back waiting for someone to crack? We know they checked landfills and apparently checked homes in the area. :shrug:



the words of Tara's very early on really bothered me (along with some other things)..Tara said someone may have done this to be vindictive and maybe now they have carried it too far and don't know how to make it right...not exact wording but close...surely you would know if you peeved someone off and would have someone in mind... no?

[Orleaner12]

Thanks! I know you're way out East lol. I'm only an hour away from Ottawa. :smile:

sorry, appreciate what you are trying to accomplish but hubby's job too sensitive for me to become involved in anything political...:wink:

[n/t]

the words of Tara's very early on really bothered me (along with some other things)..Tara said someone may have done this to be vindictive and maybe now they have carried it too far and don't know how to make it right...not exact wording but close...surely you would know if you peeved someone off and would have someone in mind... no?


Yes. I agree some of her words did raise suspicions. No doubt and I think many not just this board but on other boards as well.

I just wonder though if it's because she knew she was a drug addict and that's what made her say certain things. Maybe she thought exactly what we all did when we found out she was abusing Oxy. KWIM

She may have gone through all kinds of scenarios in her head on who may have taken Tori. She knew she didn't.

NP about Ottawa I understand.

[puppyraiser]

Yes. I agree some of her words did raise suspicions. No doubt and I think many not just this board but on other boards as well.

I just wonder though if it's because she knew she was a drug addict and that's what made her say certain things. Maybe she thought exactly what we all did when we found out she was abusing Oxy. KWIM

She may have gone through all kinds of scenarios in her head on who may have taken Tori. She knew she didn't.

NP about Ottawa I understand.

n/t- sorry can't join you in June in Ottawa either. Already booked time off for August....too bad on the timing because I'd only be an hr away from Ottawa then.

I think the thing I find oddest is the comment about a "remote field". By the looks of the location LE seems to be focusing on, you can't get much more remote.

[n/t]

n/t- sorry can't join you in June in Ottawa either. Already booked time off for August....too bad on the timing because I'd only be an hr away from Ottawa then.

I think the thing I find oddest is the comment about a "remote field". By the looks of the location LE seems to be focusing on, you can't get much more remote.

You're so right. Another bizarre statment made by Tara. It just so happens that they are indeed looking for Tori in a very remote field.

NP about Ottawa

[n/t]

MISSING GIRL: Cops zero in on suspicious vehicle


WOODSTOCK — Police are looking for information on a suspect vehicle involved in the abduction and murder of Victoria Stafford on or about April 8.

Investigators are hopeful that someone may recall seeing the suspect vehicle and/or the suspects either in Woodstock or the Guelph area. The vehicle is described as a 2003 Honda 4-Door car, blue with black spray paint over portions of the vehicle.

Police continue to look for evidence in and around Wellington County in proximity to the Guelph.

Oxford Community Police Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland says police have seized the vehicle and are searching for evidence.

“We feel the vehicle will greatly assist us in finding Victoria,” Maitland said.




Police have reason to believe that the vehicle, suspects and victim may have been in and around the area of the Guelph Home Depot parking lot some time during the early evening hours April 8.

Police would like to speak with anyone who may have .

Investigators are also asking area property owners in within a 50-minute drive of Guelph City, to check their fields and report any suspicious or significant changes they notice to landscape or familiar landmarks.

“Our focus remains on recovering Victoria Stafford to provide closure for her family” said OPP Inspector Bill Renton. A significant team of investigators and civilian police staff continue to manage the tips that continue to pour in and follow up on leads already received.

Anyone with information is asked to call the Oxford Community Police at 519-537-2323 or Toll Free at 1-877-537-6277, their Local Police, or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477) Incident details can be found at OPP Missing Persons and Unidentified Bodies at www.opp.ca or America’s Most Wanted at www.amw.com or www.oxfordcommunitypolice.on.ca


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541776.html

[n/t]

“Remember her because she was the prettiest, most beautiful little girl in the world,” said McDonald, her voice cracking as she began to cry.

:crying:


Tori :rose:

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1580173

[VC2]

Thanks! I know you're way out East lol. I'm only an hour away from Ottawa. :smile:

well we could meet up, i am 30 minutes away in wakefield

[Orleaner12]

n/t I think you and I are going to end up talking to each other all weekend:laugh: it seems the others may not have understood how this site works during holidays.....

[n/t]

I agree with Tara about the helicopter rides and I posted as such this morning even before she mentioned it this afternoon at the press conference.

This monster is just looking for a plea deal. She has no clue where Tori is. Put her back in the slammer and throw away the key. She's useless. :cursing::cuss: hammer

[Hope4Tori]

MISSING GIRL: Cops zero in on suspicious vehicle


WOODSTOCK — Police are looking for information on a suspect vehicle involved in the abduction and murder of Victoria Stafford on or about April 8.

Investigators are hopeful that someone may recall seeing the suspect vehicle and/or the suspects either in Woodstock or the Guelph area. The vehicle is described as a 2003 Honda 4-Door car, blue with black spray paint over portions of the vehicle.

Police continue to look for evidence in and around Wellington County in proximity to the Guelph.

Oxford Community Police Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland says police have seized the vehicle and are searching for evidence.

“We feel the vehicle will greatly assist us in finding Victoria,” Maitland said.




Police have reason to believe that the vehicle, suspects and victim may have been in and around the area of the Guelph Home Depot parking lot some time during the early evening hours April 8.

Police would like to speak with anyone who may have .

Investigators are also asking area property owners in within a 50-minute drive of Guelph City, to check their fields and report any suspicious or significant changes they notice to landscape or familiar landmarks.

“Our focus remains on recovering Victoria Stafford to provide closure for her family” said OPP Inspector Bill Renton. A significant team of investigators and civilian police staff continue to manage the tips that continue to pour in and follow up on leads already received.

Anyone with information is asked to call the Oxford Community Police at 519-537-2323 or Toll Free at 1-877-537-6277, their Local Police, or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477) Incident details can be found at OPP Missing Persons and Unidentified Bodies at www.opp.ca or America’s Most Wanted at www.amw.com or www.oxfordcommunitypolice.on.ca


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9541776.html

Hey n/t - thanks for posting these details -:thumbsup: I just now saw photos of the car on CP24 - one of the photos appeared - maybe? - to have been from a surveillance video at the Home Depot parking lot? IDK for certain where it actually was .. .

The AMBER ALERT may very well have made all the difference in the world for Tori~IMO -see my bold in your post. I wonder how long LE has had this crucial information and if they had it before today why was it withheld from the public?

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[n/t]

well we could meet up, i am 30 minutes away in wakefield

That would be great!! I'm trying to locate the person who started the petition online to see where they're at. I'll have more time this weekend to scour the other boards to see what others are doing and I'll contact the RCMP to get an appointment to meet with us.

Let's keep our fingers crossed. I'm determined to make this change.:thumbup:

[n/t]

n/t I think you and I are going to end up talking to each other all weekend:laugh: it seems the others may not have understood how this site works during holidays.....

Poor Doctor J. He/she thought CW banned him/her. I PM'd the link and was hoping he/she would show up by now.

[n/t]

Hey n/t - thanks for posting these details -:thumbsup: I just now saw photos of the car on CP24 - one of the photos appeared - maybe? - to have been from a surveillance video at the Home Depot parking lot? IDK for certain where it actually was .. .

The AMBER ALERT may very well have made all the difference in the world for Tori~IMO -see my bold in your post. I wonder how long LE has had this crucial information and if they had it before today why was it withheld from the public?

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:


I think it would have. I feel it in my heart that Tori could've been found alive if the Amber Alert was issued. But even if it was too late, her little body would've been found a lot sooner.

I know Cedrika Provencher's dad was just as disgusted with the way police handled his daughter's case. Something needs to be done. Children's lives are at risk.

Here's a quote from the Provencher family

Both father and son have complained that the first days after Cedrika's disappearance were wasted and that the case was not treated with enough urgency because there was no firm lead she had been abducted...... Similar complaints were made by townspeople in Woodstock because the case did not meet Amber Alert requirements to warrant an immediate emergency broadcast...... For an Amber Alert to be triggered, police must believe a child under 18 has just been abducted, consider the child to be in danger of serious bodily harm and have enough descriptive information of a suspect or vehicle...... Henri Provencher suggests there needs to be another type of emergency alert in cases such as his granddaughter's and the Stafford one - something that captures the full attention of a community ....... "You can't wait - the minute something like that happens you have to get things going," Henri Provencher said...... "If we had reacted in the first instances that it was the worst possible scenario, perhaps things would have played out differently."....

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2597244270064924833LLYwNf

[Orleaner12]

H4T I read that article about the Home Depot parking lot...I still don't see how the Amber alert would have helped at the time because they really had no info to put it out there, only the face of little Tori... they really need more info before they can call for the Amber..ie: colour/make of auto...person of interest (if known or suspected) etc. all they had to go on was a pix of Tori and it is doubtful that an abductor would dare show a child in a public place...so therefore I have to agree with the police on this one....same as whether they had labled it abduction form the start rather than missing...they explained at the start that their investigation remains the same for either.... I am thinking that once they started to suspect TLM that maybe the name of Michael came up in their investigations but how do they haul someone in just because of association....that's why they had to try and crack her and that rumour about a girlfriend may have been their idea......you know "hell hath no fury".... they couldn't beat info out of her....maybe the reason they did pull her in was her connection to OXY...they did say that she broke her probation order.... looking at her Mother and the condition she is in, it looks as if they figured there was not much they could do to her....

[n/t]

It's so frightening. I look at MR's picture in this link and he looks so normal. Good looking guy. I'm sure he could've had all the woman he wanted. Why?? Why do this to a little 8 year old girl?

I sometimes just sit here shaking my head wondering.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/22/9534296-sun.html

[Orleaner12]

interesting read about the conditions of the Amber Alert...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMBER_Alert

[Pretty Leaf]

Do any of you know if online petitions hold any weight when it comes to changing policies as in this case?

I had planned to take 3 days in June to go to Ottawa.

My plan was to send the RCMP an email and request an appointment to see them. I want to know what is required to change the Amber Alert policy and was hoping they would help guide me and let me know what needs to be done.

June 22, 23 & 24th. are the days I already have requested time off from work.

Any Canadians wanting to join me, please PM me.


I live in Ottawa but unfortunately DH is ill and I am on 24/7.

I know that the provinces through funding by the government of Canada have an Amber Alert protocol to be used country wide if necessary, but an Amber Alert is the call of the territorial police agency, in this case the OPP.

I would suggest starting there as there is a local OPP station in every
community/or close to, and ask for a copy of the Ontario's amber alert policy or contact your MPP before attempting anything federally. If not satisfied contact your MP, that's what the legislator's are for.


Even though RCMP headquarters are here I wouldn't know where to start to request an interview as this is a federal police agency. To ask them about a change in policy would be like asking the FBI to change a policy.

Researching this answer I came across a article from 2007 where the provincial and territories were streamlined to have all of the same procedures federally. Now that does not mean it is a federal policy, just that all across this land the same conditions must be met from province to province.

Hope this helps.

[n/t]

H4T I read that article about the Home Depot parking lot...I still don't see how the Amber alert would have helped at the time because they really had no info to put it out there, only the face of little Tori... they really need more info before they can call for the Amber..ie: colour/make of auto...person of interest (if known or suspected) etc. all they had to go on was a pix of Tori and it is doubtful that an abductor would dare show a child in a public place...so therefore I have to agree with the police on this one....same as whether they had labled it abduction form the start rather than missing...they explained at the start that their investigation remains the same for either.... I am thinking that once they started to suspect TLM that maybe the name of Michael came up in their investigations but how do they haul someone in just because of association....that's why they had to try and crack her and that rumour about a girlfriend may have been their idea......you know "hell hath no fury".... they couldn't beat info out of her....maybe the reason they did pull her in was her connection to OXY...they did say that she broke her probation order.... looking at her Mother and the condition she is in, it looks as if they figured there was not much they could do to her....


They had a surveillance video and a description of the abductor. They had the sketch (although 10 days later).

The point is it doesn't matter. Put their faces out there. Her face should've been on every highway sign, every subway (metro), train station,gas station...they have the technology to do it. Who gives a darn about a Burger King ad. Oh that's right. Ads bring in the $$$. Sorry. A child's life is worth more. And you know what? It's not like we have thousands of children going missing every day here in Canada. I'm talking about children under the age of 16 who we know would have no means whatsoever to support themselves.

So what if the issue an Amber Alert and then cancel?

[n/t]

I live in Ottawa but unfortunately DH is ill and I am on 24/7.

I know that the provinces through funding by the government of Canada have an Amber Alert protocol to be used country wide if necessary, but an Amber Alert is the call of the territorial police agency, in this case the OPP.

I would suggest starting there as there is a local OPP station in every
community/or close to, and ask for a copy of the Ontario's amber alert policy or contact your MPP before attempting anything federally. If not satisfied contact your MP, that's what the legislator's are for.


Even though RCMP headquarters are here I wouldn't know where to start to request an interview as this is a federal police agency. To ask them about a change in policy would be like asking the FBI to change a policy.

Researching this answer I came across a article from 2007 where the provincial and territories were streamlined to have all of the same procedures federally. Now that does not mean it is a federal policy, just that all across this land the same conditions must be met from province to province.

Hope this helps.


Yes, it helps a lot. Thanks so much. I was going to contact the RCMP to get more information and help on what to do and how to go about making the change.

[Orleaner12]

how soon did they grab that video...was it that evening or the next day? I was away when this all happened so I didn't hear about it until the following week...

[n/t]

New images in Tori case; body still missing

Photo of the car at the link

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090521/Tori_search_090522/20090522/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[n/t]

how soon did they grab that video...was it that evening or the next day? I was away when this all happened so I didn't hear about it until the following week...

April 9th.


Here's a link to the timeline

http://www.canada.com/April+Victoria+Stafford+last+seen+afternoon+walkin g+home+from+school+never+arrives+Amber+alert+issue d/1613196/story.html

[Orleaner12]

snipped from article..

"The blue Honda, which is partially covered by black spray paint, was spotted by video cameras in the parking lot of the Home Depot in Guelph, Ont., around the time Victoria was kidnapped on April 8."


how is that possible...around the same time...how far is Guelph from Woodstock...does this mean that TLM may have taken Tori to her house?

[n/t]

snipped from article..

"The blue Honda, which is partially covered by black spray paint, was spotted by video cameras in the parking lot of the Home Depot in Guelph, Ont., around the time Victoria was kidnapped on April 8."


how is that possible...around the same time...how far is Guelph from Woodstock...does this mean that TLM may have taken Tori to her house?

According to google map it's 55 minutes by car.

[lune3]

I can understand that if Tori was buried in a field or forest that it would be tough to find her again, since many places look alike and because of weather and foliage changes.
But I can't understand the rock pile thing. One would remember that. Either she was hidden in a rock pile or not, there can't be a question about that. How many rock piles are there in that area? Surely after 3 days of intensive searching you'd think they would have focused on all the rock piles if there are several.

Either TLM is leading them on a wild goose chase, or Lafferty moved the body. I'm inclined to believe it's the first. She's not doing this "out of consideration for the family", not for a minute. She's stalling IMO. She's playing games with LE, enjoying the attention and "importance" of her position in this awful tragedy IMO.

[n/t]

I can understand that if Tori was buried in a field or forest that it would be tough to find her again, since many places look alike and because of weather and foliage changes.
But I can't understand the rock pile thing. One would remember that. Either she was hidden in a rock pile or not, there can't be a question about that. How many rock piles are there in that area? Surely after 3 days of intensive searching you'd think they would have focused on all the rock piles if there are several.

Either TLM is leading them on a wild goose chase, or Lafferty moved the body. I'm inclined to believe it's the first. She's not doing this "out of consideration for the family", not for a minute. She's stalling IMO. She's playing games with LE, enjoying the attention and "importance" of her position in this awful tragedy IMO.

I agree and being coached by her lawyer on what to do and when. It's disgusting.

[doctor_J]

You're so right. Another bizarre statment made by Tara. It just so happens that they are indeed looking for Tori in a very remote field.

NP about Ottawa

Seems to me that some are ignoring some very significant facts due to the quilty emotions of Tara not murdering her daughter. I have previously posted several scenarios regarding Tori's demise being related to Tara and James' drug addiction, in particular an Onycontin addiction. These are not weekend potheads.

The "mildly vindictive" comment--- there are constant vendettas between users and their "friends" who supply. Cost changes daily according to supply. For instance, the price doubles the day prior to a holiday weekend. Cost drops on the 3rd of the month (US) due to SSI and SS checks arriving. There was a transaction concerning a couch and a possibly a bed. An addict never gives their supplier anything. They expect "credit" in the form of discounted pills or a freebie. A wannebe gangster could take a "mild vendetta" to something extreme if she is mentally disturbed or just far more evil than Tara could have possibly anticipated.

The remote field was strange when it happened and even more so now.:sneaky:

Tara has already publicly lied about her relationship with Terri M. More than one person has contradicted her and she has contradicted herself (as addicts often do when lying).

A major contradiction was that she did not know Terri and had never spoken to her when visiting Carol but that she gave her name to LE immediately as "someone new in their lives". She had just said she did not know her name. She can not get her stories straight.

She said the condition of Carol's house made her see that this was not someone to have puppies with BUT it took her 3 visits to figure this out?? 3 trips she admitted to, but the neighbors did not remember her. However, they remembered James quite well and even knew his name. There was an ongoing relationship here.:rolleyes:

I have to respond to the comment that Tara's doctor needs to medicate her for the stress. ARE U KIDDING ME????:scared: Do you want to kill her?? I know u mean well. The woman is taking the most powerfu opiate known to man (methadone) plus/minus any Oxy she's unable to resist on the side. I can certainly see her giving into the craving at a time like this. Especially if she was able to resist in the hope of saving Tori. Plus, in over 30 years,I have never seen an opiate addict, much less and Oxycontin addict that did not abuse benzodiazapines and marijuana also. Even if you don't include alcohol to this toxic mix, Tara is bordering on overdose at all times.It is dangerous for her to go to sleep. Remember Heath Ledger?? And he was taking only prescribed dosages, according to tox reports.

jmo

[n/t]

Does anybody else wonder why Rodney wasn't at the PC today?

[n/t]

Glad you found your way Doctor J. :smile:

[Hollyhocks]

Seems to me that some are ignoring some very significant facts due to the quilty emotions of Tara not murdering her daughter. I have previously posted several scenarios regarding Tori's demise being related to Tara and James' drug addiction, in particular an Onycontin addiction. These are not weekend potheads.

The "mildly vindictive" comment--- there are constant vendettas between users and their "friends" who supply. Cost changes daily according to supply. For instance, the price doubles the day prior to a holiday weekend. Cost drops on the 3rd of the month (US) due to SSI and SS checks arriving. There was a transaction concerning a couch and a possibly a bed. An addict never gives their supplier anything. They expect "credit" in the form of discounted pills or a freebie. A wannebe gangster could take a "mild vendetta" to something extreme if she is mentally disturbed or just far more evil than Tara could have possibly anticipated.

The remote field was strange when it happened and even more so now.:sneaky:

Tara has already publicly lied about her relationship with Terri M. More than one person has contradicted her and she has contradicted herself (as addicts often do when lying).

A major contradiction was that she did not know Terri and had never spoken to her when visiting Carol but that she gave her name to LE immediately as "someone new in their lives". She had just said she did not know her name. She can not get her stories straight.

She said the condition of Carol's house made her see that this was not someone to have puppies with BUT it took her 3 visits to figure this out?? 3 trips she admitted to, but the neighbors did not remember her. However, they remembered James quite well and even knew his name. There was an ongoing relationship here.:rolleyes:

I have to respond to the comment that Tara's doctor needs to medicate her for the stress. ARE U KIDDING ME????:scared: Do you want to kill her?? I know u mean well. The woman is taking the most powerfu opiate known to man (methadone) plus/minus any Oxy she's unable to resist on the side. I can certainly see her giving into the craving at a time like this. Especially if she was able to resist in the hope of saving Tori. Plus, in over 30 years,I have never seen an opiate addict, much less and Oxycontin addict that did not abuse benzodiazapines and marijuana also. Even if you don't include alcohol to this toxic mix, Tara is bordering on overdose at all times.It is dangerous for her to go to sleep. Remember Heath Ledger?? And he was taking only prescribed dosages, according to tox reports.

jmo

I tend to agree. I think there are many complex relationships within this group.

[n/t]

DJ, not sure if you saw the link posted but 14 were arrested on an Oxy drug bust in Woodstock.

How do we know TLM and MR were drug dealers though? The connection could be drugs but I don't think Tara or James got it from this 18 year old. :shrug:

[Hope4Tori]

H4T I read that article about the Home Depot parking lot...I still don't see how the Amber alert would have helped at the time because they really had no info to put it out there, only the face of little Tori... they really need more info before they can call for the Amber..ie: colour/make of auto...person of interest (if known or suspected) etc. all they had to go on was a pix of Tori and it is doubtful that an abductor would dare show a child in a public place...so therefore I have to agree with the police on this one....same as whether they had labled it abduction form the start rather than missing...they explained at the start that their investigation remains the same for either.... I am thinking that once they started to suspect TLM that maybe the name of Michael came up in their investigations but how do they haul someone in just because of association....that's why they had to try and crack her and that rumour about a girlfriend may have been their idea......you know "hell hath no fury".... they couldn't beat info out of her....maybe the reason they did pull her in was her connection to OXY...they did say that she broke her probation order.... looking at her Mother and the condition she is in, it looks as if they figured there was not much they could do to her....

Hey Orleaner - Just pretend there was an Amber Alert about little 8yr. old Tori at 6:06 pm - the moment she was reported to have been missing after school which would have been at that time over two and a half hours - and the family assured the police that it was completely out of character for Tori to have run away - and that they had contacted every person in the neighbourhood and friends and no one had seen her - they checked the area and the school area themselves but found no trace of Tori - they did all that before reporting it but then were convinced that something was terribly wrong and that they believed Tori was in trouble and even potentially in danger - etc.

They didn't need a vehicle or a suspect to issue an AMBER ALERT to the public IMO - Here's what could have helped IMO - My pretend AMBER ALERT that could have been issued and would have reached people locally and all over Ontario - saturate the available media via Highway sign overhead alerts, radio, tv, internet, twitter, e-mail -

AMBER ALERT Victoria Stafford of Woodstock Ontario - 8yrs old (ht & wt stats) (photo and/or description of clothing and accessories) is missing. Victoria also known as Tori and/or her nickname Miley was last seen in the vicinity of her school (area cross section) at approx. 3:30 today. If you see Victoria alone or with others, contact LE immediately with details as to her whereabouts including if applicable any accompanying person(s), vehicle, or other mode of public transit. Please take extra note of your surroundings and any child that could be Victoria. Victoria's safety is in jeopardy. If you do see a person with Victoria do not approach Victoria or the person, immediately call 911.

Say this had been done at around 6 or 7 pm on that cool Wednesday evening and shoppers at the Guelph area Home Depot heard/saw that alert -maybe that car would have been noticed and maybe someone would have seen Victoria inside of it and maybe today she would be at home getting ready to enjoy the weekend with her family and friends. Instead they are left without comfort as they await news of her remains.

If Toris PHOTO and description was put out there IMO that would have been enough as in my mind when an 8 yr old is missing an AMBER ALERT is justified.

The perps could have also heard/seen an AMBER ALERT as well and it might have made them get scared and then just drop her off in a nearby field - ALIVE - so they could escape - but they could have also been determined to make sure Tori would never live to tell from the moment they first took her in hand. I don't think an AMBER ALERT would have caused Tori to have been more at risk but I do think it may have helped to spare her life, IMO.

My AMBER ALERT may not be realistic - and we don't know if in fact it would have made a difference - and now we may never know.

Now I'll leave it to you all to critique edit my stylistic run-on sentence version of an AMBER ALERT!:tonguewag:


May Tori be found tonight and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[n/t]

Not from me H4T. I think that's exactly what should've been done and that's why the Amber Alert criteria needs to be changed. 8 year olds don't just disappear into thin air.

[brooklinite]

Thanks for the PM n/t! I was absent-mindedly hitting refresh every now and then, wondering why nobody had posted for a few hours. I had nothing new to add, so it took me a while to even notice the reply buttons were gone! :blushing:

Going to catch up on the rest of the thread now...

[VC2]

DJ, not sure if you saw the link posted but 14 were arrested on an Oxy drug bust in Woodstock.

How do we know TLM and MR were drug dealers though? The connection could be drugs but I don't think Tara or James got it from this 18 year old. :shrug:

Rafferty has no criminal history and iirc was described as a recreational/party user of any drugs. I have never read a word about them being dealers, either of them.

Also Dr. J has no idea if Tara is bordering on overdose at all times unless he has access to her, her medical records and the records at her treatment program including the required random urine screening (required by all methadone treatment programs in ontario)

IMO

[cantstandnuts]

Not from me H4T. I think that's exactly what should've been done and that's why the Amber Alert criteria needs to be changed. 8 year olds don't just disappear into thin air.

I had read somewhere, sorry can't link it, that they don't just put out Amber alerts without the established criteria because that would dilute them to the point that people would no longer pay attention to them. I don't believe that would happen and I believe that in this case, it may have resulted in a live Tori being sent home to her parents. The worst thing that can happen, IMO, is that they have to cancel it. And it was obvious that this child had been taken, this was an abduction, so who needs a car and a description of that car to put the child's face out there? There was a good chance that had LE decided to do this, that someone would have seen Tori with TLM and she would be alive today...or at the very least, her family would have known what happened to her way before now. It's sad and to me, diluting the power of an amber alert is a weak argument for not issuing one. Honestly, how many of us would ever ignore it if it were issued? Not me, that's for sure.

I wish you luck with your efforts to change this...I only wish I were anywhere near there and I would go along with you, but I live on the East Coast and there just isn't any way I could do it. Good Luck!

[n/t]

Thanks for the PM n/t! I was absent-mindedly hitting refresh every now and then, wondering why nobody had posted for a few hours. I had nothing new to add, so it took me a while to even notice the reply buttons were gone! :blushing:

Going to catch up on the rest of the thread now...

YW..glad you found us. :smile:

[Orleaner12]

DJ, not sure if you saw the link posted but 14 were arrested on an Oxy drug bust in Woodstock.

How do we know TLM and MR were drug dealers though? The connection could be drugs but I don't think Tara or James got it from this 18 year old. :shrug:



n/t did you see the age of those arrested today...not far off of TLM's age... why was James hanging out there over the past six weeks...TLM was in custody...the Mother was spaced out...why was Michael arrested at that house on Tuesday evening...the mother did not like him...TLM was not there...what reason was he there.....any bet it was because of the drugs.....think it would be easier to barter with an 18 year old (TLM) than someone more conditioned...there is a kingpin somewhere and the younger ones are the sellers..... Oxy is tied into this somehow....

if the auto was painted black in places and seen in that condition on April 8th then it wasn't painted to disguise it's identity after the fact.... and how could it be in two places at the same time...Woodstock and Guelph...

[VC2]

btw i thought the "random field" comment was not only smart but made sense bc she lives in a farming area.'

I always had trouble with parents saying "drop her off at a drug store" or any other very public place. Not because it wouldn't be the best thing but it would put the abductors at risk of being seen, or their car being seen. A field was a great idea, it ensures the abductor can at least see there is a way to do it and be safe (so long as the child doesn't know them in which case they are dead anyway).

As far as it being where the body seems to have been dumped...well thats where bodies often are dumped. I think the only connection is that she was thinking of a place that whoever took her might agree to let her go at, and in fact uncosciously may have also thought of a field because you wonder if your baby is dead and lying out in a field since most ppl don't dump childrens bodies in center town.

JMO

[n/t]

I had read somewhere, sorry can't link it, that they don't just put out Amber alerts without the established criteria because that would dilute them to the point that people would no longer pay attention to them. I don't believe that would happen and I believe that in this case, it may have resulted in a live Tori being sent home to her parents. The worst thing that can happen, IMO, is that they have to cancel it. And it was obvious that this child had been taken, this was an abduction, so who needs a car and a description of that car to put the child's face out there? There was a good chance that had LE decided to do this, that someone would have seen Tori with TLM and she would be alive today...or at the very least, her family would have known what happened to her way before now. It's sad and to me, diluting the power of an amber alert is a weak argument for not issuing one. Honestly, how many of us would ever ignore it if it were issued? Not me, that's for sure.

I wish you luck with your efforts to change this...I only wish I were anywhere near there and I would go along with you, but I live on the East Coast and there just isn't any way I could do it. Good Luck!

Thank you. Yes, you're right that LE thinks if too many Amber Alerts are issued, people become desensitized and won't pay attention to them. I think that's BS. Amber Alerts are much more effective than putting up flyers. As for the media, they will cover the story for a week or two but then move on to other stories. Tori's case was still in the media..thanks to Tara and Rodney for keeping her story out there. But we slowly started to notice the media fading. We went from 10 microphones to only one at the last PC before the breaking news of the arrests.

[VC2]

n/t did you see the age of those arrested today...not far off of TLM's age... why was James hanging out there over the past six weeks...TLM was in custody...the Mother was spaced out...why was Michael arrested at that house on Tuesday evening...the mother did not like him...TLM was not there...what reason was he there.....any bet it was because of the drugs.....think it would be easier to barter with an 18 year old (TLM) than someone more conditioned...there is a kingpin somewhere and the younger ones are the sellers..... Oxy is tied into this somehow....

if the auto was painted black in places and seen in that condition on April 8th then it wasn't painted to disguise it's identity after the fact.... and how could it be in two places at the same time...Woodstock and Guelph...

umm James was "hanging out" over there because as explained today, they had wondered about her from the beginning and even more after the sketch (yes i know she denied recognizing her to the media and so would i have if i wanted tori alive..and also was afraid for my son, but LE knew) so James went over quite a few times looking to see if there was any trace of Tori.

Was rafferty arrested there? I thought it was TLM's mother who was dragged out cursing and screaming by police. I just can't remember exactly where he was arrested. However, as far as mom not liking him, I don't believe a word that comes out of TLM's mothers mouth.

and btw. you dont "barter" with dealers. Not for minor drug use - as in you aren't a big dealer working for a larger one. You pay the street rate.

imo

[moonlite]

Does anybody else wonder why Rodney wasn't at the PC today?

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping that all is ok with Rodney. Maybe he is not getting along with Tara? I hope his family is supporting him at this horrid time.

I'm still confused about this case!! I hope they do find Tori and that TLM is not just leading police on a wild goose chase as others already stated.

Moonlite

[Orleaner12]

snipped...

"Say this had been done at around 6 or 7 pm on that cool Wednesday evening and shoppers at the Guelph area Home Depot heard/saw that alert -maybe that car would have been noticed and maybe someone would have seen Victoria inside of it and maybe today she would be at home getting ready to enjoy the weekend with her family and friends. Instead they are left without comfort as they await news of her remains. "

you make some valid points H4T but at that time they did not know the make or colour of the auto plus the article where this is written about states that the car was on the CCTV camera ABOUT the time that Tori was taken in Woodstock...my question is how could it be in two places at the same time...was that a boo boo on the author of the article? also if Tori was in the car what are the chances that she may have been in the trunk dead if what police say is true...that she was dead within a short time frame..so other than her picture etc. what else did they have to go on...if this was out of the norm for Tori why did her Mother wait until 6PM to call police...surely it didn't take that long to call her friends or their parents when she first became worried...why didn't she call the school to see if for whatever reason Tori was still there...I can't be positive about this one but most schools have what is called "after school programs" where the child goes after school until the parent picks them up and usually the rule is that it must be no later than 6PM...I know it is a fact where I live...it is a paid for babysitting service provided by an outsider through the OBE...maybe just maybe she could have slipped into one of those classrooms where activities are taking place....so many what if's but none will help poor little Tori now..she was let down by all...IMO for gods sake she was only 8 years old...a little too young to be out on her own IMO..doesn't matter the size of her town...bad things don't always happen in big centres...

[Orleaner12]

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping that all is ok with Rodney. Maybe he is not getting along with Tara? I hope his family is supporting him at this horrid time.

I'm still confused about this case!! I hope they do find Tori and that TLM is not just leading police on a wild goose chase as others already stated.

Moonlite


I felt so sorry for Rodney last evening when he went to pick up Daryn and was told he wasn't there but with Tara's family in another town..Why didn't she call him to let him know in advance... why didn't the police include him with the DNA of Tori last evening...he is her father for god's sake...I think Tara is icing him out....ticked because of the tapping me thinks...that family is divided, now more than before... when Tara was talking about being fabulous parents today I got the impression it was her and James, not her and Rodney.......

[lizzard]

umm James was "hanging out" over there because as explained today, they had wondered about her from the beginning and even more after the sketch (yes i know she denied recognizing her to the media and so would i have if i wanted tori alive..and also was afraid for my son, but LE knew) so James went over quite a few times looking to see if there was any trace of Tori.

Was rafferty arrested there? I thought it was TLM's mother who was dragged out cursing and screaming by police. I just can't remember exactly where he was arrested. However, as far as mom not liking him, I don't believe a word that comes out of TLM's mothers mouth.

and btw. you dont "barter" with dealers. Not for minor drug use - as in you aren't a big dealer working for a larger one. You pay the street rate.

imo
my bold

Where I live, there is almost NOTHING that cannot be traded for drugs.

imo

[n/t]

n/t did you see the age of those arrested today...not far off of TLM's age... why was James hanging out there over the past six weeks...TLM was in custody...the Mother was spaced out...why was Michael arrested at that house on Tuesday evening...the mother did not like him...TLM was not there...what reason was he there.....any bet it was because of the drugs.....think it would be easier to barter with an 18 year old (TLM) than someone more conditioned...there is a kingpin somewhere and the younger ones are the sellers..... Oxy is tied into this somehow....

if the auto was painted black in places and seen in that condition on April 8th then it wasn't painted to disguise it's identity after the fact.... and how could it be in two places at the same time...Woodstock and Guelph...


You know, Orleaner, I am totally ignorant about drugs, drug dealers. I have no idea why a "kingpin" would even trust an 18 year old with this stuff but maybe they're being used so if anything comes down, the kingpin would be protected and the younger ones face charges. I have no clue.

As for the car, Guelph is only 55 minutes away. If Tori was abducted at 3:35, put in the car and driven to Guelph, wouldn't that make it 2 places? Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

[Orleaner12]

snipped from your post:

"and btw. you dont "barter" with dealers. Not for minor drug use - as in you aren't a big dealer working for a larger one. You pay the street rate."




so sorry...my boo boo...of course I would have no way of knowing that being as I am naive in the working of the drug trade.....:glare:

[Hope4Tori]

Does anybody else wonder why Rodney wasn't at the PC today?

Welcome to all the new and/or newer and/or visiting posters -:thumbsup: all your ideas are welcome!! Please don't feel any need to censure yourselves as to your own opinions - other posters may agree or ignore or disagree with your opinions but I think it safe for me to speak on behalf of everyone here when I say that we appreciate having new and fresh perspectives!

Hey n/t Yes, I noticed and as everything else about the case I have no answer but I did wonder why . . .and after TM's report that a LE officer/detective confirmed to her that she is/was the prime suspect, I wonder if they had any such suspicions of RS? - or if they had him working on their behalf to try to trip up TM? - I still wonder if RS and TM suspect/ed one another?

Am I crazy or did I hear/read somewhere that he had been carrying a concealed tape recorder into TM's house when he was speaking with her at some point?? Maybe I dreamt this but I can't help but think I had heard/read that account somewhere - please help if anyone here remembers?

And Doctor J - I don't want you to declare me insane - but I do feel like I am on my way to crazy confusion over this case!:tonguewag:

May Tori come home tonight and be reunited with her family!:wub:

[n/t]

I felt so sorry for Rodney last evening when he went to pick up Daryn and was told he wasn't there but with Tara's family in another town..Why didn't she call him to let him know in advance... why didn't the police include him with the DNA of Tori last evening...he is her father for god's sake...I think Tara is icing him out....ticked because of the tapping me thinks...that family is divided, now more than before... when Tara was talking about being fabulous parents today I got the impression it was her and James, not her and Rodney.......

I agree with you on that. Tara was talking about her and James being the parents. Can you blame her though? Can you blame her for being angry at Rodney and his family for suspecting her? Let's be honest here. I'd be livid too.

Rodney hasn't been in their lives, never paid child support, he was looking at her school stuff at PC's for the first time. That was a choice he made. I'm sure he regrets it now but sadly, you can't turn back time. Daddy's girl is gone. :sad:

[Hope4Tori]

Not from me H4T. I think that's exactly what should've been done and that's why the Amber Alert criteria needs to be changed. 8 year olds don't just disappear into thin air.

Hey n/t Thank you! :biggrin:Now I only wish I could join you in Ottawa to do something about it, but unfortunately I am unable!

Good for you VC2 for offering your help! I hope lots of other volunteers will join you!:thumbsup:


May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[doctor_J]

DJ, not sure if you saw the link posted but 14 were arrested on an Oxy drug bust in Woodstock.

How do we know TLM and MR were drug dealers though? The connection could be drugs but I don't think Tara or James got it from this 18 year old. :shrug:

Your post made me realize that people have misconceptions concerning my use of the word "dealer". Oxy and many other RX. drugs are not commonly dealt by "professional" dealers like cocaine, marijuana, meth and other illicit drugs. Abusers deal and dealers use. It's not all they do and it's only done with someone they trust. They find someone with a regular supply and befriend them. They do not even consider themselves dealers because they only "sell" what they don't use themselves and mostly to cover their own habit.

Here's how it works. The dealer is the grandmother down the street with degenerative bone disease and not enough SS to pay the bills.

Carol has a legitimate reason to have an Oxy RX. She is also an abuser as I think we can all see. Just sayin how it usually works. We don't yet have proof in this case. Carol probably has 3 or 4 different doctors in different counties (towns, provinces, whatever) that have no idea what the other docs are prescribing. She gets her Rx filled monthly, all different pharmacies. Even with only one script, if she only takes 1/2 and sell the rest, it could make her a living of over $1000/mo. Say she gets 60 tablets, 80mg, monthly on ONE script. She takes 1/2 and sells 1/2. That's 30 pills at 80 bucks to supplement her income and pay for benzos,alcohol etc. That's a modest prescription for someone with intestinal cancer. $2400/month just for one 1/2 of one script. Say Terri took 1/2 of that for her own habit and to supply MR. That's still $1200 and she only has 15 pills to sell. She wouldn't be considered a "dealer" if she had just had 2 reliable customers who quietly bought those 15 every month. Multiply this situation by 5 or 6 prescriptions and you've got a more of a conventional dealer. These type "dealers' rarely have to solicit new customers and most of their friends might not even know they sell a few pills. Got to say though, the neighbors probably had it figured out.

VC2- The reason I know Tara is on the brink of OD at all times is because all methadone recipients are in danger of overdose. Statistically, Oxycontin addicts on methadone test positive on those routine urine screens up to 90% of the time. After 3 positive tests in a row they have broken their contracts and are denied methadone for 6 months. So, it is medically accepted that they are most likely cheating and doctors dose the methadone cautiously for several months. Also there is at least one report in print that Tara was snorting before a pc. Methadone is EXTREMELY dangerous and anyone taking it daily is informed of the risk of death IN THEIR SLEEP due to respiratory depression. They are required to acknowledge that risk in writing. That risk is compared to the danger of crushing, dissolving and shooting a PILL, strained thru a cigarette filter, into their veins several times a day. It's worth the risk.

[Orleaner12]

my bold

Where I live, there is almost NOTHING that cannot be traded for drugs.

imo


would snowblowers be on that list......:wink:

[n/t]

Welcome to all the new and/or newer and/or visiting posters -:thumbsup: all your ideas are welcome!! Please don't feel any need to censure yourselves as to your own opinions - other posters may agree or ignore or disagree with your opinions but I think it safe for me to speak on behalf of everyone here when I say that we appreciate having new and fresh perspectives!

Hey n/t Yes, I noticed and as everything else about the case I have no answer but I did wonder why . . .and after TM's report that a LE officer/detective confirmed to her that she is/was the prime suspect, I wonder if they had any such suspicions of RS? - or if they had him working on their behalf to try to trip up TM? - I still wonder if RS and TM suspect/ed one another?

Am I crazy or did I hear/read somewhere that he had been carrying a concealed tape recorder into TM's house when he was speaking with her at some point?? Maybe I dreamt this but I can't help but think I had heard/read that account somewhere - please help if anyone here remembers?

And Doctor J - I don't want you to declare me insane - but I do feel like I am on my way to crazy confusion over this case!:tonguewag:

May Tori come home tonight and be reunited with her family!:wub:

You heard right. He was taping her.

[doctor_J]

Can someone post a link to today's pc with Tara? I'm on an ancient laptop that is so slow I'll never find it. I'm way behind. I was awakened by a busted pipe this am and 2 inches of water in my house. Lots of plumbers all day....:w00t:

My son took the good laptop (the pro-gamers model-love it's speed, lol)

[n/t]

snipped...

"Say this had been done at around 6 or 7 pm on that cool Wednesday evening and shoppers at the Guelph area Home Depot heard/saw that alert -maybe that car would have been noticed and maybe someone would have seen Victoria inside of it and maybe today she would be at home getting ready to enjoy the weekend with her family and friends. Instead they are left without comfort as they await news of her remains. "

you make some valid points H4T but at that time they did not know the make or colour of the auto plus the article where this is written about states that the car was on the CCTV camera ABOUT the time that Tori was taken in Woodstock...my question is how could it be in two places at the same time...was that a boo boo on the author of the article? also if Tori was in the car what are the chances that she may have been in the trunk dead if what police say is true...that she was dead within a short time frame..so other than her picture etc. what else did they have to go on...if this was out of the norm for Tori why did her Mother wait until 6PM to call police...surely it didn't take that long to call her friends or their parents when she first became worried...why didn't she call the school to see if for whatever reason Tori was still there...I can't be positive about this one but most schools have what is called "after school programs" where the child goes after school until the parent picks them up and usually the rule is that it must be no later than 6PM...I know it is a fact where I live...it is a paid for babysitting service provided by an outsider through the OBE...maybe just maybe she could have slipped into one of those classrooms where activities are taking place....so many what if's but none will help poor little Tori now..she was let down by all...IMO for gods sake she was only 8 years old...a little too young to be out on her own IMO..doesn't matter the size of her town...bad things don't always happen in big centres...


Tara and her mother were at the school. When they were there, a police car was at the school because another boy was missing. It turned out the boy was later found. The police officer told Tara that she needed to go to the police station to file a missing person report. He didn't take any information. How sick is that?

Tara's mom went to the police station and Tara returned home to wait there for Tori in case she returned. IIRC, this was approx 5:30.

[doctor_J]

H4T ---I'm not a psychiatrist but I wouldn't feel the need to refer you to one. I believe your sanity is sound. (and I enjoy your hypergraphia, lol) :thumbup:

[n/t]

Can someone post a link to today's pc with Tara? I'm on an ancient laptop that is so slow I'll never find it. I'm way behind. I was awakened by a busted pipe this am and 2 inches of water in my house. Lots of plumbers all day....:w00t:

My son took the good laptop (the pro-gamers model-love it's speed, lol)


Oh dear. Plumbers? Why didn't you call the firemen? I'll tell you my story some other time. :lol:

I think Orleaner usually has the best link to the PC's., right Orleaner? :wub:

[lizzard]

Welcome to all the new and/or newer and/or visiting posters - all your ideas are welcome!! Please don't feel any need to censure yourselves as to your own opinions - other posters may agree or ignore or disagree with your opinions but I think it safe for me to speak on behalf of everyone here when I say that we appreciate having new and fresh perspectives!

Hey n/t Yes, I noticed and as everything else about the case I have no answer but I did wonder why . . .and after TM's report that a LE officer/detective confirmed to her that she is/was the prime suspect, I wonder if they had any such suspicions of RS? - or if they had him working on their behalf to try to trip up TM? - I still wonder if RS and TM suspect/ed one another?

Am I crazy or did I hear/read somewhere that he had been carrying a concealed tape recorder into TM's house when he was speaking with her at some point?? Maybe I dreamt this but I can't help but think I had heard/read that account somewhere - please help if anyone here remembers?

And Doctor J - I don't want you to declare me insane - but I do feel like I am on my way to crazy confusion over this case!:tonguewag:

May Tori come home tonight and be reunited with her family!:wub:

Hi, H4T:seeya:

I'm sure I read that as well, going to look. BRB, nobody go anywhere.

[n/t]

Hi, H4T:seeya:

I'm sure I read that as well, going to look. BRB, nobody go anywhere.

If it helps, I think it was the Globe&Mail article. Some very interesting and revealing stuff in that article.

[cantstandnuts]

Seems to me that some are ignoring some very significant facts due to the quilty emotions of Tara not murdering her daughter. I have previously posted several scenarios regarding Tori's demise being related to Tara and James' drug addiction, in particular an Onycontin addiction. These are not weekend potheads.

The "mildly vindictive" comment--- there are constant vendettas between users and their "friends" who supply. Cost changes daily according to supply. For instance, the price doubles the day prior to a holiday weekend. Cost drops on the 3rd of the month (US) due to SSI and SS checks arriving. There was a transaction concerning a couch and a possibly a bed. An addict never gives their supplier anything. They expect "credit" in the form of discounted pills or a freebie. A wannebe gangster could take a "mild vendetta" to something extreme if she is mentally disturbed or just far more evil than Tara could have possibly anticipated.

The remote field was strange when it happened and even more so now.:sneaky:

Tara has already publicly lied about her relationship with Terri M. More than one person has contradicted her and she has contradicted herself (as addicts often do when lying).

A major contradiction was that she did not know Terri and had never spoken to her when visiting Carol but that she gave her name to LE immediately as "someone new in their lives". She had just said she did not know her name. She can not get her stories straight.

She said the condition of Carol's house made her see that this was not someone to have puppies with BUT it took her 3 visits to figure this out?? 3 trips she admitted to, but the neighbors did not remember her. However, they remembered James quite well and even knew his name. There was an ongoing relationship here.:rolleyes:

I have to respond to the comment that Tara's doctor needs to medicate her for the stress. ARE U KIDDING ME????:scared: Do you want to kill her?? I know u mean well. The woman is taking the most powerfu opiate known to man (methadone) plus/minus any Oxy she's unable to resist on the side. I can certainly see her giving into the craving at a time like this. Especially if she was able to resist in the hope of saving Tori. Plus, in over 30 years,I have never seen an opiate addict, much less and Oxycontin addict that did not abuse benzodiazapines and marijuana also. Even if you don't include alcohol to this toxic mix, Tara is bordering on overdose at all times.It is dangerous for her to go to sleep. Remember Heath Ledger?? And he was taking only prescribed dosages, according to tox reports.

jmo

I can agree with one thing. Tara probably shouldn't be given any tranquilizers to help her cope. Being on Methadone, it's a recipe for her to fall on the floor unconscious.

Methadone, however, is not the most powerful opiate known to man. I would say Fentanyl probably is, although I am not positive. That's why when patients who are on methadone clinics need meds for pain, you have to give them something that will outdo the Methadone and where I work, we choose Fentanyl...it will kick Methadone off the opiate receptor and jump on it, making pain relief possible.

As for bartering, I've personally heard my patients doing it. Small time drug pushers and users will often trade drugs for other stuff.

I think this association was small time, no drug lords involved. So, if TLM needed a couch and Tara needed Oxy, the trade would happen.

I do, however, fully believe that Tara knows TLM and had spoken with her and that James was over there and known to the neighbors because he too had been over there, not looking for evidence of Tori, but for Oxycontin prior to Tori's disappearance and then after, for evidence of her because they realized they may have put her in harms way once they saw the video and recognized TLM. I know that Tara loves that child simply because she was willing to actually point to her to LE after the disappearance.

I feel terribly sorry for Tara and do believe that if she ever knew that buying a few Oxycontin would lead to the death of her daughter, that she never would have done it and that she is completely destroyed that she has lost her little 8 year old girl.

I think you're right on one more thing...Oxy is involved, just not in the way you may think. It's just a loose association that allowed two predators to take advantage. Not vindictive, but opportunistic. IMO

[n/t]

MISSING GIRL: Police tactics questioned


WOOSTOCK — Weeks after arresting a female suspect carrying a white puffy jacket while getting into their cruiser — a woman later charged with abduction — police investigating the killing of Victoria Stafford continued to question frightened women in the city, several sources said.

“That’s what I don’t get,” said the mother of one woman, whom she said was pulled out of their home by police with guns drawn.

“They had that girl right from the start. It was terrifying. That’s what makes me so mad.”

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9542851.html

:scared:

[n/t]

Boy,,,,are the reporters ever busy now digging up whatever they can, eh?

[Jester]

I guess we won't know full what LE were doing exactly. I do however think they failed on many degrees of this case. The neighbor, who reported that the lady walking with Tara looked like TLM also knew she had a white coat, I would think that alone would have been enough for issuing a search warrant, but then they even knew that her hair was changed right around the time that the video was released. There should have been arrests quicker, homes should have been searched immediately.

In regards to the Amber Alert, probably one of their biggest goofs. The LE focused on Tara, led the public to believe it was Tara, and did nothing to defend her when perhaps they knew the difference.

I am not happy with how this was handled at all.

JMO

I would have to agree that there was some misplaced form of tunnel vision, something the Ontario police forces should have been cautious of after the Guy Paul Morin case. That was a fiasco, and the crime has never been solved. Additionally, there should have been an Amber Alert. If they had info about a green car, a woman in a white coat, and a picture of Tori, quick response could have made a difference.

[Hope4Tori]

I had read somewhere, sorry can't link it, that they don't just put out Amber alerts without the established criteria because that would dilute them to the point that people would no longer pay attention to them. I don't believe that would happen and I believe that in this case, it may have resulted in a live Tori being sent home to her parents. The worst thing that can happen, IMO, is that they have to cancel it. And it was obvious that this child had been taken, this was an abduction, so who needs a car and a description of that car to put the child's face out there? There was a good chance that had LE decided to do this, that someone would have seen Tori with TLM and she would be alive today...or at the very least, her family would have known what happened to her way before now. It's sad and to me, diluting the power of an amber alert is a weak argument for not issuing one. Honestly, how many of us would ever ignore it if it were issued? Not me, that's for sure.

I wish you luck with your efforts to change this...I only wish I were anywhere near there and I would go along with you, but I live on the East Coast and there just isn't any way I could do it. Good Luck!

Hey cantstandnuts! :thumbsup: ITA - and IMO if anyone's concern is that AMBER ALERTS would cause the public to become desensitized to the message, I would also argue that perhaps once the public heard success stories of found missing children there would be a heightened sensitivity and increased awareness of the issue, IMO. Many people respond naturally to the call for help and would like to have the opportunity to be a part - perhaps for some missing children - a huge part of the solution, IMO!

Without AMBER ALERTS being issued more often as needed, we are more likely to become desensitized to the issue of missing children because many people feel removed from the situation until the details are made public, and by then it is often too late for the missing child and for the public to have a chance to effect the outcome. The rare use of AMBER ALERTS IMO, is actually wrongly convincing people that missing children are so common and most for harmless reasons and therefore as a society we accept that our children are simply not that important. IMO, all children when missing is a serious thing - something worthy of notice and action by all of us if possible! If people had the chance to do something to make a difference for a missing child, IMO, most would gladly take it!

There should be a dedicated LE force IMO for all issues relating to children - but I know especially in this economy - I am only dreaming!

May Tori be found and reunited with loved ones tonight!:wub:

[cantstandnuts]

MISSING GIRL: Police tactics questioned


WOOSTOCK — Weeks after arresting a female suspect carrying a white puffy jacket while getting into their cruiser — a woman later charged with abduction — police investigating the killing of Victoria Stafford continued to question frightened women in the city, several sources said.

“That’s what I don’t get,” said the mother of one woman, whom she said was pulled out of their home by police with guns drawn.

“They had that girl right from the start. It was terrifying. That’s what makes me so mad.”

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9542851.html

:scared:

Yeah, they had her, they had info on the white puffy coat turned pink puffy coat and they had the long hair cut short. They had info that she had been hanging around the school walking her dog. So, why were they out terrorizing other women and not instead fully focused on getting TLM to spill her guts?

[Jester]

Do any of you know if online petitions hold any weight when it comes to changing policies as in this case?

I had planned to take 3 days in June to go to Ottawa.

My plan was to send the RCMP an email and request an appointment to see them. I want to know what is required to change the Amber Alert policy and was hoping they would help guide me and let me know what needs to be done.

June 22, 23 & 24th. are the days I already have requested time off from work.

Any Canadians wanting to join me, please PM me.

Interesting question about what is needed to amend the Amber Alert. Wasn't the Canadian law adopted because of the US Amber alert? Maybe it needs to be Canadianized.

[VC2]

snipped from your post:

"and btw. you dont "barter" with dealers. Not for minor drug use - as in you aren't a big dealer working for a larger one. You pay the street rate."




so sorry...my boo boo...of course I would have no way of knowing that being as I am naive in the working of the drug trade.....:glare:

Well I was, in my teens in Chicago. Yes you can "barter" soem things like sex or a car, but they normally won't even take jewelry, means having to fence it and there are more than enough buyers for drugs.

As far as money goes, we know coke was 100 bucks a gram. (have always wondered if inflation kept up with drug prices lol, it was quite a few years ago) That was the price you were never going to pay 80 bucks a gram by bartering. The only ppl who did were those buying by the ounces or pounds, obviously to redeal.

Most of us preferred pills, coke or mda, and i cant even remember the darvon costs or other pills at the time, but you did know them, everyone did. There wasn't a high school that didn't have it available on lunch break in our area of winnetka.

It has been many many years, but i doubt that there are any dealers who are willing to barter down the cost of what they are selling UNLESS it was sex or something like that in trade. certainly not in cash. All you have to do is walk out your door and head downtown to find all the buyers you want at the price it goes for.

We were all spoiled brat kids, was weird...one of the wealthiest (in terms of family) was the biggest dealer, he was 16 and went on to become a successful lawyer from what i heard. Fortunately i went through those years in my teens and by the time i hit university was well past it, but its not as difficult or hard to find as many think and thousands of people have gotten into trouble with it early on in life and come through the other side successfully.

Sometimes i think drugs are blamed for way to much. It does not turn someone into a psychopathic child rapist and murderer. It would never occur to me to think people who smoke weed or pop a pill would dream of hurting a child in this way. It destroys lives but not like that.

IMO

[doctor_J]

I can agree with one thing. Tara probably shouldn't be given any tranquilizers to help her cope. Being on Methadone, it's a recipe for her to fall on the floor unconscious.

Methadone, however, is not the most powerful opiate known to man. I would say Fentanyl probably is, although I am not positive. That's why when patients who are on methadone clinics need meds for pain, you have to give them something that will outdo the Methadone and where I work, we choose Fentanyl...it will kick Methadone off the opiate receptor and jump on it, making pain relief possible.

As for bartering, I've personally heard my patients doing it. Small time drug pushers and users will often trade drugs for other stuff.

I think this association was small time, no drug lords involved. So, if TLM needed a couch and Tara needed Oxy, the trade would happen.

I do, however, fully believe that Tara knows TLM and had spoken with her and that James was over there and known to the neighbors because he too had been over there, not looking for evidence of Tori, but for Oxycontin prior to Tori's disappearance and then after, for evidence of her because they realized they may have put her in harms way once they saw the video and recognized TLM. I know that Tara loves that child simply because she was willing to actually point to her to LE after the disappearance.

I feel terribly sorry for Tara and do believe that if she ever knew that buying a few Oxycontin would lead to the death of her daughter, that she never would have done it and that she is completely destroyed that she has lost her little 8 year old girl.

I think you're right on one more thing...Oxy is involved, just not in the way you may think. It's just a loose association that allowed two predators to take advantage. Not vindictive, but opportunistic. IMO

The ability of Fentanyl to relieve pain unrelieved by methadone or otherwise saturated opiate receptors is not related to "strength" as measured by it's relation to the standard, morphine. It works because it's chemical profile (imagery) is so different from morphine that it "tricks" receptors to hypersaturate. But that's a little too much info, I know.

I agree on the dealer, drug lord thing and I addressed a later post to it.:biggrin:

[VC2]

I can agree with one thing. Tara probably shouldn't be given any tranquilizers to help her cope. Being on Methadone, it's a recipe for her to fall on the floor unconscious.

Methadone, however, is not the most powerful opiate known to man. I would say Fentanyl probably is, although I am not positive. That's why when patients who are on methadone clinics need meds for pain, you have to give them something that will outdo the Methadone and where I work, we choose Fentanyl...it will kick Methadone off the opiate receptor and jump on it, making pain relief possible.

snipped

Fentanyl is a wonder drug for pain, I have had two of my cats on it, one when she had a shattered pelvis and one who had cancer. They make you sign your life away at the vets though and even have to bring the patch back once the 5 days are up that its effective for. I was appalled when they said people have been known to take it off their animals and use it themselves or sell it. I just cant imagine making a helpless animal suffer so you can get a high. Especially when you are paying a darned high vet bill because anything serious enough to need fentanyl isn't cheap to treat.

Oddly enough most of my kitties have gotten scared on hydro morphone (morphine derivative), they get completely confused and react, while fentanyl just takes their pain away and they can eat and enjoy being part of the cat clan as much as possible.

[lizzard]

Hi, H4T:seeya:

I'm sure I read that as well, going to look. BRB, nobody go anywhere.

It's quite far down in the article.

http://www.globemoney.com/news/national/after-42-days-arrest-in-case-of-tori-stafford/article1145754/

Right as usual, n/t. Thanks. :thumbup:

[cantstandnuts]

Hey cantstandnuts! :thumbsup: ITA - and IMO if anyone's concern is that AMBER ALERTS would cause the public to become desensitized to the message, I would also argue that perhaps once the public heard success stories of found missing children there would be a heightened sensitivity and increased awareness of the issue, IMO. Many people respond naturally to the call for help and would like to have the opportunity to be a part - perhaps for some missing children - a huge part of the solution, IMO!

Without AMBER ALERTS being issued more often as needed, we are more likely to become desensitized to the issue of missing children because many people feel removed from the situation until the details are made public, and by then it is often too late for the missing child and for the public to have a chance to effect the outcome. The rare use of AMBER ALERTS IMO, is actually wrongly convincing people that missing children are so common and most for harmless reasons and therefore as a society we accept that our children are simply not that important. IMO, all children when missing is a serious thing - something worthy of notice and action by all of us if possible! If people had the chance to do something to make a difference for a missing child, IMO, most would gladly take it!

There should be a dedicated LE force IMO for all issues relating to children - but I know especially in this economy - I am only dreaming!

May Tori be found and reunited with loved ones tonight!:wub:

Hope4Tori, may I first say I read all your posts and love them all. Second, you are so right, the built in desire to help is in most of us and so there is no way I can see that Amber Alerts could ever be diluted and therefore ignored. I just don't see it!

I think that was probably the biggest mistake that LE made in this case, but the second was in running around accusing innocents of this crime when they had evidence (IMO) to do more to make TLM fess up much earlier than they did. May have saved Tori, may have not, but at least her family could be on the way to healing much sooner.

And it bothers me that she's "helping" this family find their daughter now. First of all, that is BS, she's loving all of this because she is mad at the world and sick and likely trying to save her butt a bit of time in the slammer and second, what a slap in the face. You take her, give her to your boyfriend, kill her (I personally don't think BF did it, I think TLM did) and now you want to help? A little late, don't ya think?

[doctor_J]

Well I was, in my teens in Chicago. Yes you can "barter" soem things like sex or a car, but they normally won't even take jewelry, means having to fence it and there are more than enough buyers for drugs.

As far as money goes, we know coke was 100 bucks a gram. (have always wondered if inflation kept up with drug prices lol, it was quite a few years ago) That was the price you were never going to pay 80 bucks a gram by bartering. The only ppl who did were those buying by the ounces or pounds, obviously to redeal.

Most of us preferred pills, coke or mda, and i cant even remember the darvon costs or other pills at the time, but you did know them, everyone did. There wasn't a high school that didn't have it available on lunch break in our area of winnetka.

It has been many many years, but i doubt that there are any dealers who are willing to barter down the cost of what they are selling UNLESS it was sex or something like that in trade. certainly not in cash. All you have to do is walk out your door and head downtown to find all the buyers you want at the price it goes for.

We were all spoiled brat kids, was weird...one of the wealthiest (in terms of family) was the biggest dealer, he was 16 and went on to become a successful lawyer from what i heard. Fortunately i went through those years in my teens and by the time i hit university was well past it, but its not as difficult or hard to find as many think and thousands of people have gotten into trouble with it early on in life and come through the other side successfully.

Sometimes i think drugs are blamed for way to much. It does not turn someone into a psychopathic child rapist and murderer. It would never occur to me to think people who smoke weed or pop a pill would dream of hurting a child in this way. It destroys lives but not like that.

IMO

I totally agree with your last paragraph. One of MR neighbors/friends or maybe the mom's BF said he couldn't have done it, must have been drugs. It is very rare that drugs can make a person do something so out of character and outrageously criminal. Only the hallucinagins, like LSD, PCP could do that. In those cases a person is out of touch with reality (psychotic) due to the drug. Still culpable though, because they took the drug knowing they would hallucinate.

[brooklinite]

I'm not going against the Amber Alert issue, here, but I'm wondering if some kind of compromise could be made between what we have now, and issuing something every time a child goes missing. When I used to be on shift during the summer time, it was common for 2-3 children to go missing from my division alone on a given weekend day. Granted, it was a popular area for families, but that's just one division in one city in one province. Quite often, the child would not be found for at least an hour. There were never any alerts issued as the children just vanished from a crowded area. Thankfully, most of them had simply wandered off to look at something and gotten lost, but it is a tough call for LE to make because most parents say that it is completely out of character for their kids to go off somewhere. I'm not saying that the existing Amber Alert criteria is necessarily the right approach, but I understand where the concern re: desensitization comes in.

[cantstandnuts]

The ability of Fentanyl to relieve pain unrelieved by methadone or otherwise saturated opiate receptors is not related to "strength" as measured by it's relation to the standard, morphine. It works because it's chemical profile (imagery) is so different from morphine that it "tricks" receptors to hypersaturate. But that's a little too much info, I know.

I agree on the dealer, drug lord thing and I addressed a later post to it.:biggrin:

Sorry, didn't see that post. Will check it out.
And no, it's not too much info, would actually really like to know. I thought it was about strength, not different chemical profile. Thank you for that bit of education, Doctor J!

[lizzard]

It's quite far down in the article.

http://www.globemoney.com/news/national/after-42-days-arrest-in-case-of-tori-stafford/article1145754/

Right as usual, n/t. Thanks. :thumbup:
my quote

Tried to post this in the links (for once I remembered!), it wouldn't let me???

[VC2]

Yeah, they had her, they had info on the white puffy coat turned pink puffy coat and they had the long hair cut short. They had info that she had been hanging around the school walking her dog. So, why were they out terrorizing other women and not instead fully focused on getting TLM to spill her guts?

:cursing::cursing:
But eight people who contacted police about Terri-Lynne McClintic, charged with abduction, and accessory to murder after the fact, told The Free Press they don’t understand why police had the woman in custody April 12 but did not have her charged until May 20.

Ok so maybe they wrote off Tara giving them mcclintic as a possibility because they were sure she had taken tori. And the other neighbors of mcclintic who did everything they could to get police to listen perhaps they ignored because who knows what their background is. BUT EIGHT PEOPLE and they didn't get a search warrant, they didn't pull in her boyfriend for questioning??????

I mean on the day they arrested TLM they still had Tara come in to do a "gait walk" so obviously they didn't take TLM seriously at all. Good thing she wasn't smart enough to change her walk or she would still be quiet and rafferty free.

IMO

[Jester]

Hey n/t - thanks for posting these details -:thumbsup: I just now saw photos of the car on CP24 - one of the photos appeared - maybe? - to have been from a surveillance video at the Home Depot parking lot? IDK for certain where it actually was .. .

The AMBER ALERT may very well have made all the difference in the world for Tori~IMO -see my bold in your post. I wonder how long LE has had this crucial information and if they had it before today why was it withheld from the public?

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

Petition says Green car ... that's an important detail. When did police learn the correct color of the car?

[cantstandnuts]

Fentanyl is a wonder drug for pain, I have had two of my cats on it, one when she had a shattered pelvis and one who had cancer. They make you sign your life away at the vets though and even have to bring the patch back once the 5 days are up that its effective for. I was appalled when they said people have been known to take it off their animals and use it themselves or sell it. I just cant imagine making a helpless animal suffer so you can get a high. Especially when you are paying a darned high vet bill because anything serious enough to need fentanyl isn't cheap to treat.

Oddly enough most of my kitties have gotten scared on hydro morphone (morphine derivative), they get completely confused and react, while fentanyl just takes their pain away and they can eat and enjoy being part of the cat clan as much as possible.

As Doctor J eluded to, it must be because of the different chemical properties that your cats related differently to each medication.

Addiction is powerful. I can totally see an addict choosing to get high over his own pet's pain.

I know some of my patients have cut up Fentanyl patches and eaten them to get high. OMG!

[VC2]

Sorry, didn't see that post. Will check it out.
And no, it's not too much info, would actually really like to know. I thought it was about strength, not different chemical profile. Thank you for that bit of education, Doctor J!

I may be wrong on this but when i was checking out fentanyl (i check out every drug prescribed to my cats, especially since they have underlying health issues - one is FIV positive, one was diabetic, most were exposed to herpes by two starving ferals so i watch immune system reactions like a hawk) but the chemical profile is so different that its a favored drug for end stage disease when the patient wants as much quality time with their family as possible? That the way it works doesn't cloud the mind as much as the opiates and therefore they can be more responsive with family.

Just something i think i read on it.

[Hope4Tori]

snipped...

"Say this had been done at around 6 or 7 pm on that cool Wednesday evening and shoppers at the Guelph area Home Depot heard/saw that alert -maybe that car would have been noticed and maybe someone would have seen Victoria inside of it and maybe today she would be at home getting ready to enjoy the weekend with her family and friends. Instead they are left without comfort as they await news of her remains. "

you make some valid points H4T but at that time they did not know the make or colour of the auto plus the article where this is written about states that the car was on the CCTV camera ABOUT the time that Tori was taken in Woodstock...my question is how could it be in two places at the same time...was that a boo boo on the author of the article? also if Tori was in the car what are the chances that she may have been in the trunk dead if what police say is true...that she was dead within a short time frame..so other than her picture etc. what else did they have to go on...if this was out of the norm for Tori why did her Mother wait until 6PM to call police...surely it didn't take that long to call her friends or their parents when she first became worried...why didn't she call the school to see if for whatever reason Tori was still there...I can't be positive about this one but most schools have what is called "after school programs" where the child goes after school until the parent picks them up and usually the rule is that it must be no later than 6PM...I know it is a fact where I live...it is a paid for babysitting service provided by an outsider through the OBE...maybe just maybe she could have slipped into one of those classrooms where activities are taking place....so many what if's but none will help poor little Tori now..she was let down by all...IMO for gods sake she was only 8 years old...a little too young to be out on her own IMO..doesn't matter the size of her town...bad things don't always happen in big centres...


Hey Orleaner -:wub: As to the article time frame it could be a reporter's interpretation IDK, but I am going by the LE update report as to time frame saying early hours of the evening.

I don't think it matters at all re AMBER ALERT if LE have a suspect and/or vehicle description - a description of the missing child and/or photo, details of the circumstance should be sufficient to put the issue the AMBER ALERT. It is my suggestion that an AMBER ALERT may have helped - even it it was a remote chance - and now that we know Tori was in Guelph area which is not a hugely populated centre and where locals may notice something or someone different - there may have been a chance someone could have seen her still alive. . .

And if she had been killed and in the trunk, maybe there would be blood dripping from it . . . and someone may have noticed because people would have been on high alert to check out their surroundings for unusual things. Without an AMBER ALERT people just go about their daily business without any concern, rightly so. And what harm can an AMBER ALERT do - much less I think than the potential to do good, IMO.

If an AMBER ALERT had been issued at 6 or 7 on the 8th, then on the next day when the infamous video with Tori and the suspect was discovered, it is my opinion also that the curious vehicle should have been identified then to the public as a POI as well. What harm would that have done? It could have helped, IMO.

I had posted way back - it feels like years ago now!:) - in an American LE article that it is common for parents not to formally report their children missing in the first 2 -3 hours because they often don't want to think the worst and expect to locate their child on their own.

I live in Toronto and I agree as I sit here writing tonight with my door wide open bad things don't happen only in big cities and even in my city child abductions are extremely rare and taken seriously here, IMO, by LE and the public alike - thank goodness!

I will concede to you and others, Orleaner, as I posted at the end of the last locked thread, there are still questions, and I want the whole truth to be revealed for Tori's sake! Avoiding or dismissing the uncomfortable questions, does nothing to change whatever the truth may be even though I am sensitive to the timing, as I am sure everyone here would agree, doesn't make questioning TM an easy thing to do, at least not for conflicted me.

I have a theory about why TM was so adamant about denying all possibility that Tori's disappearance had anything to do with drugs, and that is IMO her own way of avoiding any guilt for having had involvement in that world and may have worried that her decisions in that respect may have exposed Tori to risky characters, and she is probably afraid to admit these feelings even to herself! I can feel compassion for her in that way, if my theory is true. That would be a horrible burden to bear and in the moment TM has more than most can ever imagine.

May Tori be reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[cantstandnuts]

:cursing::cursing:


Ok so maybe they wrote off Tara giving them mcclintic as a possibility because they were sure she had taken tori. And the other neighbors of mcclintic who did everything they could to get police to listen perhaps they ignored because who knows what their background is. BUT EIGHT PEOPLE and they didn't get a search warrant, they didn't pull in her boyfriend for questioning??????

I mean on the day they arrested TLM they still had Tara come in to do a "gait walk" so obviously they didn't take TLM seriously at all. Good thing she wasn't smart enough to change her walk or she would still be quiet and rafferty free.

IMO

I wonder, if because the people reporting on the strange behavior of TLM lived in this run down area, that LE didn't take it as seriously as they should have? I mean, if the people making the statements had been more "fortunate" would they have been taken more seriously?

Just thinking out loud, but YKWIM?

[VC2]

As Doctor J eluded to, it must be because of the different chemical properties that your cats related differently to each medication.

Addiction is powerful. I can totally see an addict choosing to get high over his own pet's pain.

I know some of my patients have cut up Fentanyl patches and eaten them to get high. OMG!

oh i can see them wanting to, but since addicts have their sources i just can't understand making a beloved pet suffer when they don't have an alternate source for the drug they need and you do. I would cut off both arms for any of my cats. but then, people do call me the crazy cat lady:blushing:

[cantstandnuts]

oh i can see them wanting to, but since addicts have their sources i just can't understand making a beloved pet suffer when they don't have an alternate source for the drug they need and you do. I would cut off both arms for any of my cats. but then, people do call me the crazy cat lady:blushing:

And, you're not an addict. Again, addiction is so powerful that cats, dogs and sadly, even children, don't always take precedence.

[VC2]

I wonder, if because the people reporting on the strange behavior of TLM lived in this run down area, that LE didn't take it as seriously as they should have? I mean, if the people making the statements had been more "fortunate" would they have been taken more seriously?

Just thinking out loud, but YKWIM?

I do and if that is true, then i hope that every officer who looked at the tips about TLM gets FIRED.

they have no business being cops, or maybe just traffic duty if they ignore multiple same tips about a woman seen abducting a little girl to focus on the childs parents instead.

I bet dollars to donuts that the only reason TLM was arrested for probation breach warrants is that they put her name into the system when it was told to them and saw she was wanted on the probation warrants so arrested her. The coat she had probably wasn't even tested for forensics imo.

all imo

[Orleaner12]

another from the Globe & Mail..


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toris-mother-police-process-are-both-vindicated-at-last/article1150281/

[Hope4Tori]

H4T ---I'm not a psychiatrist but I wouldn't feel the need to refer you to one. I believe your sanity is sound. (and I enjoy your hypergraphia, lol) thumbs up stolen and converted into words by the prolific H4T!

Thank you Doctor J - and for those like me who had no idea what that means -http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26483

"Hypergraphia: The driving compulsion to write; the overwhelming urge to write. Hypergraphia may compel someone to keep a voluminous journal, to jot off frequent letters to the editor, to write on toilet paper if nothing else is available, and perhaps even to compile a dictionary. Hypergraphia is the opposite of writer's block.

Temporal lobe epilepsy is associated with hypergraphia. This association has been known at least as early as 1974 (Waxman SG, Geschwind N. Hypergraphia in temporal lobe epilepsy. Neurology. 1974;24:629-36). A number of prolific writer may have had temporal lobe epilepsy, including Byron, Dante, Dostoevsky, Moliere, Petrarch, Poe, and Tennyson.

Hypergraphia has also been called the midnight disease" :laugh: and no wonder I cannot keep up with the reading here and often lag behind - I'm so happily occupied writing! And thanks again Dr. J as now I have a new word to add to my "dictionary"! Perhaps I should have saved this response until the clock struck 12 tonight!

LOL - at least now I have a diagnosis - I cannot wait to tell my kids - you should see the birthday cards I write!:tonguewag:

May Tori be found tonight and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[doctor_J]

oh i can see them wanting to, but since addicts have their sources i just can't understand making a beloved pet suffer when they don't have an alternate source for the drug they need and you do. I would cut off both arms for any of my cats. but then, people do call me the crazy cat lady:blushing:

Another crazy cat person here. ME TOO!!

You might be interested to know that cats react differently to opiates than any other known species. They have, predictably, what is called a "paradoxical" reaction. Opiates in general often have the opposite effect than intended. Morphine can and will cause a cat to behave in a hyperactive, crazy manner and is contraindicated. Fentanyl proved to be a wonder drug for cats and for the first time an opiate could be used sucessfully to relieve their pain. That pardoxical reaction is probably why your cats dreaded the hydrocodone.

Love the cat lovers!!! Sorry O/T

[Hope4Tori]

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping that all is ok with Rodney. Maybe he is not getting along with Tara? I hope his family is supporting him at this horrid time.

I'm still confused about this case!! I hope they do find Tori and that TLM is not just leading police on a wild goose chase as others already stated.

Moonlite H4T's bold

Hey Moonlite!:smile: ITA with all your points and questions - and me too - I'm confused about so much and have no final opinion yet!

May Tori be found and returned to her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[doctor_J]

Thank you Doctor J - and for those like me who had no idea what that means -http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26483

"Hypergraphia: The driving compulsion to write; the overwhelming urge to write. Hypergraphia may compel someone to keep a voluminous journal, to jot off frequent letters to the editor, to write on toilet paper if nothing else is available, and perhaps even to compile a dictionary. Hypergraphia is the opposite of writer's block.

Temporal lobe epilepsy is associated with hypergraphia. This association has been known at least as early as 1974 (Waxman SG, Geschwind N. Hypergraphia in temporal lobe epilepsy. Neurology. 1974;24:629-36). A number of prolific writer may have had temporal lobe epilepsy, including Byron, Dante, Dostoevsky, Moliere, Petrarch, Poe, and Tennyson.

Hypergraphia has also been called the midnight disease" and no wonder I cannot keep up with the reading here and often lag behind - I'm so happily occupied writing! And thanks again Dr. J as now I have a new word to add to my "dictionary"! Perhaps I should have saved this response until the clock struck 12 tonight!

LOL - at least now I have a diagnosis - I cannot wait to tell my kids - you should see the birthday cards I write!:tonguewag:

May Tori be found tonight and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

Will you be paying by check or credit card today?????:biggrin:

[Hope4Tori]

I felt so sorry for Rodney last evening when he went to pick up Daryn and was told he wasn't there but with Tara's family in another town..Why didn't she call him to let him know in advance... why didn't the police include him with the DNA of Tori last evening...he is her father for god's sake...I think Tara is icing him out....ticked because of the tapping me thinks...that family is divided, now more than before... when Tara was talking about being fabulous parents today I got the impression it was her and James, not her and Rodney....... H4T's bold


Hey Orleaner and n/t - I don't know if anyone commented yet but I think TM mentioned in her pc today that LE got swabs from both she and RS for DNA, IIRC. I don't suspect he had anything recent of Tori's to add to that effort, but I could be wrong.

May Tori be found tonight and reunited with her family!:wub:

[VC2]

another from the Globe & Mail..


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toris-mother-police-process-are-both-vindicated-at-last/article1150281/

i dont completely agree with this article. The police understandably had listening devices in Tara's house bc they were suspicious of her.

With EIGHT tips about TLM they should have gotten a warrant and had devices in both her and rafferty's house..hers at least. This is not an either or situation, they wilfully neglected to strongly follow up TLM or her boyfriend..whom i am sure any friend of hers could have informed them who it was.

IMO

[doctor_J]

OK, big contradiction here. Tara and James didn't know the McClintics but James felt comfortable visiting Carol 2 or 3 days into a MAJOR family crisis. Just what excuse did he use for the impromptu visit?? Denying the drug connection is insane of Tara.

Goris visited McLintic’s Wilson Street triplex about two or three days after Victoria’s abduction on a gut feeling that she may have been involved, McDonald said

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1580173

[Hope4Tori]

You heard right. He was taping her.

Thank you for confirming that for me n/t - IMO all trust that may have existed before between them must now be completely eroded - and that's also very tragic, if true.

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[VC2]

Another crazy cat person here. ME TOO!!

You might be interested to know that cats react differently to opiates than any other known species. They have, predictably, what is called a "paradoxical" reaction. Opiates in general often have the opposite effect than intended. Morphine can and will cause a cat to behave in a hyperactive, crazy manner and is contraindicated. Fentanyl proved to be a wonder drug for cats and for the first time an opiate could be used sucessfully to relieve their pain. That pardoxical reaction is probably why your cats dreaded the hydrocodone.

Love the cat lovers!!! Sorry O/T

That would do it, and now my vet is going to have a lot of explaining to do. will pm you

[Hope4Tori]

Hi, H4T:seeya:

I'm sure I read that as well, going to look. BRB, nobody go anywhere.


Thank you Lizzard :thumbsup:I appreciate the backup!!!!


Wishing and hoping that Tori will be returned to her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[VC2]

OK, big contradiction here. Tara and James didn't know the McClintics but James felt comfortable visiting Carol 2 or 3 days into a MAJOR family crisis. Just what excuse did he use for the impromptu visit?? Denying the drug connection is insane of Tara.

Goris visited McLintic’s Wilson Street triplex about two or three days after Victoria’s abduction on a gut feeling that she may have been involved, McDonald said

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1580173

lets see... how about .. the dogs? any excuse to get in there. It does not mean she is insane, it may just mean she is telling the truth unless you have tunnel vision. I haven't even read one link about either rafferty or mcclintic being dealers. There was a rumor they met at the meth clinic but that was just as likely started by reporters as an explanation of how they knew each other since tara had come clean with her past oxy use.

(btw if i thought they did drugs and i was JG, i would be buying from them even if i never had touched them before) I just the think the dogs make the most sense especially since he went over a few times and TLM was in jail then.

jmo

[Hope4Tori]

I can agree with one thing. Tara probably shouldn't be given any tranquilizers to help her cope. Being on Methadone, it's a recipe for her to fall on the floor unconscious.

Methadone, however, is not the most powerful opiate known to man. I would say Fentanyl probably is, although I am not positive. That's why when patients who are on methadone clinics need meds for pain, you have to give them something that will outdo the Methadone and where I work, we choose Fentanyl...it will kick Methadone off the opiate receptor and jump on it, making pain relief possible.

As for bartering, I've personally heard my patients doing it. Small time drug pushers and users will often trade drugs for other stuff.

I think this association was small time, no drug lords involved. So, if TLM needed a couch and Tara needed Oxy, the trade would happen.

I do, however, fully believe that Tara knows TLM and had spoken with her and that James was over there and known to the neighbors because he too had been over there, not looking for evidence of Tori, but for Oxycontin prior to Tori's disappearance and then after, for evidence of her because they realized they may have put her in harms way once they saw the video and recognized TLM. I know that Tara loves that child simply because she was willing to actually point to her to LE after the disappearance.

I feel terribly sorry for Tara and do believe that if she ever knew that buying a few Oxycontin would lead to the death of her daughter, that she never would have done it and that she is completely destroyed that she has lost her little 8 year old girl.

I think you're right on one more thing...Oxy is involved, just not in the way you may think. It's just a loose association that allowed two predators to take advantage. Not vindictive, but opportunistic. IMO


Hey Cantstandnuts - again you are taking the words right out of my mouth with your last four paragraphs and maybe because of the sensitivity and compassion in the way you express your suspicion, I find it easier to accept my own lingering feelings of doubt. If TM does have any involvement, IMO, it would be most likely as you describe.

And maybe I am struggling with feelings of responsibility and guilt for having ever written any words of doubt or criticism, because I didn't and don't want to believe she had any connection - by association or otherwise - and all along my gut was telling me she didn't but my brain was asking me to keep an open mind. It doesn't feel good inside of me to think the worst of anyone - thoughts like that gnaw at me and I will never be comfortable making harsh judgements on anyone in this case or outside of it because it is simply not a natural way for me to think or react.:ohmy:

None of us here have an exclusive and accurate insight into the truth - and I so wish we did for Tori. I appreciate all the variety of viewpoints about Tori's situation and I love to be challenged on my own opinions because if not challenged, and if those challenges are not given consideration, I would not be satisfied with myself. If I am strongly convicted about something I will be prepared to defend my opinion. It's good for us all here to be open to others, because I have been convinced to change my opinion, at times when others have made persuasive arguments and have highlighted flaws in this case. Tonight I am still uncertain exactly where I stand, except I never doubt that I stand for truth and hope and justice for Tori in the end!

Anyway, can you imagine how long this board would have lasted if everyone agreed about everything all the time? :w00t:

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[canada]

And it bothers me that she's "helping" this family find their daughter now. First of all, that is BS, she's loving all of this because she is mad at the world and sick and likely trying to save her butt a bit of time in the slammer and second, what a slap in the face. You take her, give her to your boyfriend, kill her (I personally don't think BF did it, I think TLM did) and now you want to help? A little late, don't ya think?

Just watch...those two animals will be pointing the fingers at each other.
Makes me sick that her lawyer (lawyers that take those types of clients make me ill) can stand there and throw pixie dust on a child murder and we are all supposed to have a warm fuzzy feeling about it.
I really do hope that there has been information provided that is useful because I will be even more disgusted if that witch is wasting everybody's time.

[Jester]

:cursing::cursing:


Ok so maybe they wrote off Tara giving them mcclintic as a possibility because they were sure she had taken tori. And the other neighbors of mcclintic who did everything they could to get police to listen perhaps they ignored because who knows what their background is. BUT EIGHT PEOPLE and they didn't get a search warrant, they didn't pull in her boyfriend for questioning??????

I mean on the day they arrested TLM they still had Tara come in to do a "gait walk" so obviously they didn't take TLM seriously at all. Good thing she wasn't smart enough to change her walk or she would still be quiet and rafferty free.

IMO

I think the police need probably cause to get a search warrant. Maybe 8 people suspected Terry Lynne, and maybe they all reported their thoughts to the police. There were probably a lot of other names that were also mentioned. At one time, police were looking in other provinces because of tips. Tips don't justify a search warrant.

[Hope4Tori]

my quote

Tried to post this in the links (for once I remembered!), it wouldn't let me???

LOL - Lizzard :w00t: - me too - I think it is also disabled because of the holiday.

I had tried to post the petition for Tori's Law and was not able.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

May Tori be finally found today and reunited with her family!:wub:

[lizzard]

Hey Cantstandnuts - again you are taking the words right out of my mouth with your last four paragraphs and maybe because of the sensitivity and compassion in the way you express your suspicion, I find it easier to accept my own lingering feelings of doubt. If TM does have any involvement, IMO, it would be most likely as you describe.

And maybe I am struggling with feelings of responsibility and guilt for having ever written any words of doubt or criticism, because I didn't and don't want to believe she had any connection - by association or otherwise - and all along my gut was telling me she didn't but my brain was asking me to keep an open mind. It doesn't feel good inside of me to think the worst of anyone - thoughts like that gnaw at me and I will never be comfortable making harsh judgements on anyone in this case or outside of it because it is simply not a natural way for me to think or react.:ohmy:

None of us here have an exclusive and accurate insight into the truth - and I so wish we did for Tori. I appreciate all the variety of viewpoints about Tori's situation and I love to be challenged on my own opinions because if not challenged, and if those challenges are not given consideration, I would not be satisfied with myself. If I am strongly convicted about something I will be prepared to defend my opinion. It's good for us all here to be open to others, because I have been convinced to change my opinion, at times when others have made persuasive arguments and have highlighted flaws in this case. Tonight I am still uncertain exactly where I stand, except I never doubt that I stand for truth and hope and justice for Tori in the end!

Anyway, can you imagine how long this board would have lasted if everyone agreed about everything all the time? :w00t:

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

H4T, I love how you phrase things, always with compassion combined with insight. I too do not want to believe that Tara was involved, and I don't think she was, directly.
Indirectly, however, I think she is in deep. Her drug use is admitted, and despite her protests to the contrary she is not exhibiting signs of being committed to recovery. I believe the two alleged murderers are small-time dealers, my experience is that to use, you have to have some source of income, and most users deal to a certain degree. I do not want to speculate as to whether James and Tara fall into this category, but as I said earlier, there is very little that cannot be bartered for drugs. The dependency overrules any common sense, the need for a fix outweighs any normal instincts. I do not believe that Tara bartered Tori for drugs, let me make that clear. I do believe that she was taken as a result of a promise not kept, a deal not followed through with, or a payment not remitted. Small town dealers will, imo, extend credit briefly, non-payment is dealt with swiftly.

All jmo.

[moonlite]

I felt so sorry for Rodney last evening when he went to pick up Daryn and was told he wasn't there but with Tara's family in another town..Why didn't she call him to let him know in advance... why didn't the police include him with the DNA of Tori last evening...he is her father for god's sake...I think Tara is icing him out....ticked because of the tapping me thinks...that family is divided, now more than before... when Tara was talking about being fabulous parents today I got the impression it was her and James, not her and Rodney.......

Greetings'
Orleaner"

I must have missed that "Rodney going to pick up Daryn only to be told that he was not there" Who knows why Tara, does what she does!!
I think the police did include Rodney with the DNA. I do hope the Canadian child protective services really do take a good hard look at Tara's parenting skills. IMO' there is allot more to be said about this case.

Moonlite

[Hope4Tori]

Petition says Green car ... that's an important detail. When did police learn the correct color of the car?


Hey Jester - :thumbsup: I noticed that too but as far as I know the updated description of the car was not made public until this evening, and I didn't notice the petition until later. I think it would be prudent to have the wording updated but I have no idea how to alert the original creator of the petition - and I wonder if anything is amended if the existing "signatures" would still be valid? - and there are several thousand signatures on it already.

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

[lizzard]

LOL - Lizzard :w00t: - me too - I think it is also disabled because of the holiday.
I had tried to post the petition for Tori's Law and was not able.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

May Tori be finally found today and reunited with her family!:wub:my bold

That figgers! The ONE time I remember!:thumbdown:

[Jester]

Hey Jester - :thumbsup: I noticed that too but as far as I know the updated description of the car was not made public until this evening, and I didn't notice the petition until later. I think it would be prudent to have the wording updated but I have no idea how to alert the original creator of the petition - and I wonder if anything is amended if the existing "signatures" would still be valid? - and there are several thousand signatures on it already.

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

I think that's a bit of a problem. I don't think a petition can be altered and the names transferred. In fact, I think the petition should be a little more neutral. By specifying the car colour, it suggests that the green car was accurate information. Today, we know that it isn't. Knowing about a green car at the beginning would have misled people.

I think it needs a little more thought.

[Hope4Tori]

Hope4Tori, may I first say I read all your posts and love them all. Second, you are so right, the built in desire to help is in most of us and so there is no way I can see that Amber Alerts could ever be diluted and therefore ignored. I just don't see it!

I think that was probably the biggest mistake that LE made in this case, but the second was in running around accusing innocents of this crime when they had evidence (IMO) to do more to make TLM fess up much earlier than they did. May have saved Tori, may have not, but at least her family could be on the way to healing much sooner.

And it bothers me that she's "helping" this family find their daughter now. First of all, that is BS, she's loving all of this because she is mad at the world and sick and likely trying to save her butt a bit of time in the slammer and second, what a slap in the face. You take her, give her to your boyfriend, kill her (I personally don't think BF did it, I think TLM did) and now you want to help? A little late, don't ya think?


Thank you Cantstandnuts! :wub: and likewise from me to you!

I am not sure about TLM and/or MR - I need way more details to form an opinion - but I have my doubts about motives and I do so hope that both parties will receive the same charges with respect to the murder charge, if in fact Tori has been murdered, and the alleged accused are guilty, IMO.

I must be hours behind you all by now and soon I must sleep!:sleep:

May Tori be found and reunited with her family today!:wub:

[moonlite]

Just watch...those two animals will be pointing the fingers at each other.
Makes me sick that her lawyer (lawyers that take those types of clients make me ill) can stand there and throw pixie dust on a child murder and we are all supposed to have a warm fuzzy feeling about it.
I really do hope that there has been information provided that is useful because I will be even more disgusted if that witch is wasting everybody's time.

Greetings"
Canada"

I think before everything is said and done with this case there will be a few more fingers pointing. Yes' I hope too that TLM, is not taking everyone for a ride. I just can't believe that TLM, couldn't take the police exactly to the spot where Tori is at. IMO' this kind makes me wonder if she is telling the truth?

Moonlite

[Hope4Tori]

I wonder, if because the people reporting on the strange behavior of TLM lived in this run down area, that LE didn't take it as seriously as they should have? I mean, if the people making the statements had been more "fortunate" would they have been taken more seriously?

Just thinking out loud, but YKWIM?

Hey Cantstandnuts -:thumbsup: Exactly - I had posted this very concern in the now locked thread! And I extended that question to include TM/JG and their families and friends as well, with respect to how they were viewed by LE . . . just a thought. I cannot help but wonder about that too!

Admittedly, I would be swayed but just such a bias, and I know that may not be fair, but if ever I came face to face with someone like TLM's mom for instance, I would run for my life!

Years ago I travelled to a mid-sized city in the USA and I drove away from my hotel and ended up in a real slum - it was very scary - I was shocked to see that people actually lived in such conditions and while I pitied them for their circumstances, I actually panicked and felt vey at risk. It was just a vibe and I guess my vivid imagination working overtime. It didn't help that I was driving a nice rental car with the windows rolled down completely on the summer's day as Enya music played on the car cd. Believe me I did not go unnoticed and in an effort to escape that area I ended up on a freeway and ended up following a cop off the ramp to an exit and luckily he gave me directions to get back to the safety of my hotel. He cautioned me about travelling around without being wise to the area and I was for the rest of the trip more than careful!:w00t:

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

[Hope4Tori]

[QUOTE=doctor_J;13131209]Will you be paying by check or credit card today?????: QUOTE] biggrin converted to words by H4T


Hey Doctor J - Can I run a tab? I have a feeling that I'll be relying upon your professional opinion more in the future!:w00t:

BTW - I hadn't noticed before that I was in such illustrious company i.e. Byron, Dante, Dostoevsky, Moliere, Petrarch, Poe, and Tennyson. Not bad indeed!

To begin if you could help me with my growing dictionary . . . what does ETA and OT mean here? :shrug:

May Tori be found and reunited with her family today!:wub:

[moonlite]

MISSING GIRL: Police tactics questioned


WOOSTOCK — Weeks after arresting a female suspect carrying a white puffy jacket while getting into their cruiser — a woman later charged with abduction — police investigating the killing of Victoria Stafford continued to question frightened women in the city, several sources said.

“That’s what I don’t get,” said the mother of one woman, whom she said was pulled out of their home by police with guns drawn.

“They had that girl right from the start. It was terrifying. That’s what makes me so mad.”

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9542851.html

:scared:

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping TLM can tell the police where Tori is buried. I'm just wondering big time here, if TLM, is telling the truth? The article said; that TLM, wanted to get back at her boyfriend for seeing other women?
Gez' this TLM does sound kind of vindictive!!!
Interesting how she tried to dye her white coat and article does state she had coat with her when arrested.

Another thing' I kind get the impression that maybe the cops didn't believe her at first. I mean if they were still interrogating another woman as mentioned in the article. This all kind of makes a person go hmmm-doggy.

Moonlite

[Amy]

the words of Tara's very early on really bothered me (along with some other things)..Tara said someone may have done this to be vindictive and maybe now they have carried it too far and don't know how to make it right...not exact wording but close...surely you would know if you peeved someone off and would have someone in mind... no?

I get confused by Tara's words. Early on, when the sketch was first released, Tara said she did not know anyone who would match that sketch. Now, Rodney was saying it reminded him of someone in high school--would that mean from before when he was in high school, or now while he is in high school? Tara said several times, the sketch reminded Rodney of someone, but it didn't remind her of anyone.

Now, today as I am reading, Tara is saying that she recognized the sketch as being TLM and told LE @ the time?

Then, the first I read about Tara and whether or not she knows TLM is that they went to her house about dog breeding, and saw how little furnishings there were, so she wanted to give TLM a couch. A neighbor seems to confirm this, as there was a couch Tara wasn't able to sell, the friend suggested what to do w/it, and Tara said she was going to give it to a friend, which turned out to be TLM. The next I am reading is that Tara is saying she didn't know TLM @ all, certainly didn't have drug dealings w/her, MIGHT have SEEN her @ her mom's house, but didn't talk to her.

So, if she had only seen her once, the impression TLM left w/her was such that she could recognize her from a sketch? And, why would she first be saying the sketch didn't remind her of anyone she knew, then turns around and says she recognized her and gave her name to LE?

[Hope4Tori]

another from the Globe & Mail..


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toris-mother-police-process-are-both-vindicated-at-last/article1150281/


Thanks for posting this article Orleaner - :thumbsup: I respect greatly the perspective of Christie Blatchford, Globe & Mail. I do wonder what LE heard in that house that continued to cause their suspcions of TM?

The comments section in this article is functioning and someone commented on why this was so - as I believe others here had noticed as well that for other articles it was disabled.

I know for a fact when someone had posted a highly inflammatory comment about JG, it was quickly removed and the comment section that day was then disabled. The paper has a duty first to protect itself from legal action which could ensue if they are perceived to assist in propogating such serious rumours by permitting their publication, JMO.

Christie Blatchford is IMO conservative in her views and she probably has great respect for LE since I imagine over the many years she has covered the news of the day she has also earned their respect and has been privvy to some insider info, JMO. I do believe that she is a very objective and honest observer and writer. . .FWIW. She is one of my favourites among T.O. columnists and I trust her motives, experience and her wise approach.

May Tori be found today and reunited with her family!:wub:

[moonlite]

Yeah, they had her, they had info on the white puffy coat turned pink puffy coat and they had the long hair cut short. They had info that she had been hanging around the school walking her dog. So, why were they out terrorizing other women and not instead fully focused on getting TLM to spill her guts?

Greetings"
Cantstandnuts'

I like your name.LOL I just wanted to add' that TLM, being seen around Tori's, school could be construed as premeditation. Does Canada have the death penalty? I'm not sure how Canadian laws work, but I know in the USA, TLM and her boyfriend would possibly be facing the death penalty.

Moonlite

[Amy]

I think it would have. I feel it in my heart that Tori could've been found alive if the Amber Alert was issued. But even if it was too late, her little body would've been found a lot sooner.

I know Cedrika Provencher's dad was just as disgusted with the way police handled his daughter's case. Something needs to be done. Children's lives are at risk.

Here's a quote from the Provencher family

Both father and son have complained that the first days after Cedrika's disappearance were wasted and that the case was not treated with enough urgency because there was no firm lead she had been abducted...... Similar complaints were made by townspeople in Woodstock because the case did not meet Amber Alert requirements to warrant an immediate emergency broadcast...... For an Amber Alert to be triggered, police must believe a child under 18 has just been abducted, consider the child to be in danger of serious bodily harm and have enough descriptive information of a suspect or vehicle...... Henri Provencher suggests there needs to be another type of emergency alert in cases such as his granddaughter's and the Stafford one - something that captures the full attention of a community ....... "You can't wait - the minute something like that happens you have to get things going," Henri Provencher said...... "If we had reacted in the first instances that it was the worst possible scenario, perhaps things would have played out differently."....

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2597244270064924833LLYwNf

IMO, the minimal amount of information that should be required is the name of the victim, his/her age, ht, wt, color of hair, what clothes the parents last recall him/her wearing. The probable location of the disappearance. A very recent pic as soon as it can be provided. People can start looking for the VICTIM---and descriptions of the car and possible suspect can be added as that info becomes available.

But, what if the suspect handed the child off to someone else? People might look @ someone who resembles what the suspect is supposed to look like, but if s/he do not have a child in tow, is anyone going to take a second look? The same w/the vehicle. The suspect can abandon that vehicle and get into another, especially since s/he would be aware that the description will be all over the area.

I see Amber Alerts that are issued when it is suspected that a non-custodial parent has abducted the child. The parent's name, a description of what vehicle s/he drives (even if no one saw any vehicle or even saw the abduction) Sometimes the parent takes the child to harm him/her, but there are others who take the child because s/he wants the child...and may even go across one of the borders to excape detection.

So, if LE suspects the parent might have done something to the child--given her away, just hiding her from the other parent, whatever--why in the world wouldn't the hue and cry go out immediately????

And, above all, even if LE thinks the missing child--even if s/he is 16 or 17 has run away--there should be an Amber Alert. Especially if they think an 8 w/o child is going to run away--for God's sake--someone needs to FIND that child, she is too young to have a CLUE what she will do--where will she sleep, what will she eat? Will someone evil pick her up and molest and kill her, or start her in a world of prostitution @ such an early age?

And they can say what they want until the cows come home about Tori going "willingly" with the person. When it is determined that the person w/the child is NOT on the "can-pick-up list" it becomes an abduction because the mother did not authorize the person to take the child. When they look @ it LEGALLY--the mother's authorization is all that counts. The 8 y/o's willingness cannot supercede the mother's decision. A child might go willingly w/someone who says she is to take Tori to see her grandpa, and her mom is waiting there for her. Or with a person who says her puppy is in the car, and she needs to come get him.

Besides, how long after Tori was missing was this video discovered, and viewed until she was on there and LE could make their decision that she was going willingly? They would have had to have made the assumption about running away even before that. How many cameras are there on the periphery of the schools? How many little girls were seen on the tape(s?) It had to have taken some time to come across the part with Tori leaving.

[Hope4Tori]

[QUOTE=Hope4Tori;13131618]


ETA=Edited to add; and
OT=Off Topic

Thank you Kittymama! :thumbsup: I knew ETA didn't mean the usual estimated time of arrival - and I thought maybe the OT may have meant Oh Thanks!:laugh: The context just didn't fit!

Now off to bed for me! Really I mean it this time!

May Tori be found today and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[Amy]

I can understand that if Tori was buried in a field or forest that it would be tough to find her again, since many places look alike and because of weather and foliage changes.
But I can't understand the rock pile thing. One would remember that. Either she was hidden in a rock pile or not, there can't be a question about that. How many rock piles are there in that area? Surely after 3 days of intensive searching you'd think they would have focused on all the rock piles if there are several.

Either TLM is leading them on a wild goose chase, or Lafferty moved the body. I'm inclined to believe it's the first. She's not doing this "out of consideration for the family", not for a minute. She's stalling IMO. She's playing games with LE, enjoying the attention and "importance" of her position in this awful tragedy IMO.

I think TLM is playing this for all it's worth, delay any consequences to her, plus, she is out and about, probably gettiing lunch that isn't jail issued, flying around in a helicopter, not being stuck in a cell, having to think about what she has done.

I read on the last thread (that was closed) where her attorney "Leroy?" is saying she is getting nothing out of this. I think he is putting a spin on things, that is about as ludicrous as something Jose Baez would be saying, IMO. Okay, TECHNICALLY I suppose she's not getting anything out of it---YET. But I could betcha that, when Tori is found, she plans on getting something such as, reduced charges, or reduced sentence when the time comes.

If she was truely doing this out of the goodness of her heart, showing her remorse, or whatever, she would have led authorities directly to where Tori is. I am astounded that LE is letting her carry on for 3 days, leading them from one place to another. Even if she was high on something, she would have an idea of the area they left her in. She needs to go back and sit in her cell cuz she isn't helping one bit. They would be searching those areas whether she was in the helicopter or not, or @ least they should be.

IMO

[Hope4Tori]

H4T, I love how you phrase things, always with compassion combined with insight. I too do not want to believe that Tara was involved, and I don't think she was, directly.
Indirectly, however, I think she is in deep. Her drug use is admitted, and despite her protests to the contrary she is not exhibiting signs of being committed to recovery. I believe the two alleged murderers are small-time dealers, my experience is that to use, you have to have some source of income, and most users deal to a certain degree. I do not want to speculate as to whether James and Tara fall into this category, but as I said earlier, there is very little that cannot be bartered for drugs. The dependency overrules any common sense, the need for a fix outweighs any normal instincts. I do not believe that Tara bartered Tori for drugs, let me make that clear. I do believe that she was taken as a result of a promise not kept, a deal not followed through with, or a payment not remitted. Small town dealers will, imo, extend credit briefly, non-payment is dealt with swiftly.

All jmo.

Nighty night Lizzard :wub:and thanks for your kind comments! I respect your opinion -- now after reading and writing all night I have not come closer to any final conclusions!

May Tori finally be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[doctor_J]

VC2---Your pm box is full and won't accept anymore. You're popular tonite.

[Amy]

Hey Orleaner - Just pretend there was an Amber Alert about little 8yr. old Tori at 6:06 pm - the moment she was reported to have been missing after school which would have been at that time over two and a half hours - and the family assured the police that it was completely out of character for Tori to have run away - and that they had contacted every person in the neighbourhood and friends and no one had seen her - they checked the area and the school area themselves but found no trace of Tori - they did all that before reporting it but then were convinced that something was terribly wrong and that they believed Tori was in trouble and even potentially in danger - etc.

They didn't need a vehicle or a suspect to issue an AMBER ALERT to the public IMO - Here's what could have helped IMO - My pretend AMBER ALERT that could have been issued and would have reached people locally and all over Ontario - saturate the available media via Highway sign overhead alerts, radio, tv, internet, twitter, e-mail -

AMBER ALERT Victoria Stafford of Woodstock Ontario - 8yrs old (ht & wt stats) (photo and/or description of clothing and accessories) is missing. Victoria also known as Tori and/or her nickname Miley was last seen in the vicinity of her school (area cross section) at approx. 3:30 today. If you see Victoria alone or with others, contact LE immediately with details as to her whereabouts including if applicable any accompanying person(s), vehicle, or other mode of public transit. Please take extra note of your surroundings and any child that could be Victoria. Victoria's safety is in jeopardy. If you do see a person with Victoria do not approach Victoria or the person, immediately call 911.

Say this had been done at around 6 or 7 pm on that cool Wednesday evening and shoppers at the Guelph area Home Depot heard/saw that alert -maybe that car would have been noticed and maybe someone would have seen Victoria inside of it and maybe today she would be at home getting ready to enjoy the weekend with her family and friends. Instead they are left without comfort as they await news of her remains.

If Toris PHOTO and description was put out there IMO that would have been enough as in my mind when an 8 yr old is missing an AMBER ALERT is justified.

The perps could have also heard/seen an AMBER ALERT as well and it might have made them get scared and then just drop her off in a nearby field - ALIVE - so they could escape - but they could have also been determined to make sure Tori would never live to tell from the moment they first took her in hand. I don't think an AMBER ALERT would have caused Tori to have been more at risk but I do think it may have helped to spare her life, IMO.

My AMBER ALERT may not be realistic - and we don't know if in fact it would have made a difference - and now we may never know.

Now I'll leave it to you all to critique edit my stylistic run-on sentence version of an AMBER ALERT!:tonguewag:


May Tori be found tonight and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

YES!!!! You posted this much more succinctly and clearly than I did. I truely believe that just to get the CHILD out there, on the news, maybe even a breaking alert that interupts regularly scheduled programming. Someone may have seen her, and may have been able to alert authorities. Indeed, the perps may have planned to kill her outright, and may have already done that, but the FINDING of Tori might have happened earlier. If she was alive--wonderful. If she was already dead, heartbreaking--but she would have been back w/her family so much sooner. Possibly.

[Amy]

my bold

Where I live, there is almost NOTHING that cannot be traded for drugs.

imo

Bartering seems to be the way younger folks get their drugs. A girl living w/me had drugs for oral surgery. The girl she baby sat for would only take her to town or watch her child if K would pay her in pills. She would not take cash, and would not help her out if K would not give her pills. So I know bartering is done for drugs in some areas, in some cases.

[Hope4Tori]

There's a few things here that bother me. One is from that article:

"Ms. McDonald failed in two of the questions asked her. The results suggested she had more information about Tori's disappearance than she was telling police, or that she'd had some advance knowledge that something wicked was her way coming. When detectives told her this (and though she many times suggested to reporters she had never been given the results, she had), she stormed out of the room."

I wonder what that could mean? I have a feeling--and please don't jump on me for this, it's just my opinion--that it may turn out to be significant.

Also, in one of the articles, it mentions that when police picked TLM up on April 12th, she was carrying her puffy white coat, which had been dyed "slightly pink." But I thought that her mother said that she and MR went to London to dispose of the coat and some other clothes? That doesn't make sense. I know her mother is pretty weird, but why would she say that? Just how much does she know?

What if this girl's just playing with LE? What if Tori's not dead, but locked up somewhere, or hidden somewhere? I know it's not likely, but would you trust anything this obviously crazy, angry, and bitter girl said? What if they sold her? Not TM, but TLM and MR?

Just thinking out loud. Wishful thinking, I suppose, that there may still be hope for Tori. I guess I feel the same way as Rodney--I can't bring myself to believe she's really dead until they find her body. :crying:

Kittymama -:thumbsup: thank you fo sharing your thoughts because my imagination makes me wonder along those same lines! I had questioned this possibility here earlier as well in another thread.

The first day I heard about Tori's "murder" I was frankly crushed - and if it is true I can now accept it and have no wish to deny reality - but I do sense that there is so much more we have yet to learn and I do hope still that against all odds Tori could be alive and hidden somewhere. I stopped putting my message about wishing for her eternal peace yesterday, which may seem like denial to some, but to me it is still possible until we have irrefutable evidence to the contrary!

OMG - I really have to crash!

May Tori be found and returned to her loved ones today!:wub:

[moonlite]

Thank you for confirming that for me n/t - IMO all trust that may have existed before between them must now be completely eroded - and that's also very tragic, if true.

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

Greetings'

Well' after reading that Rodney' taped Tara, it does make a wee bit of sense why he was not at the press conference today. I hope Tara realizes after everything is said and done, that taking drugs, exposing your children to that type of life style. That is a huge dysfunction that she is potentially handing down to her children.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Kittymama -:thumbsup: thank you fo sharing your thoughts because my imagination makes me wonder along those same lines! I had questioned this possibility here earlier as well in another thread.

The first day I heard about Tori's "murder" I was frankly crushed - and if it is true I can now accept it and have no wish to deny reality - but I do sense that there is so much more we have yet to learn and I do hope still that against all odds Tori could be alive and hidden somewhere. I stopped putting my message about wishing for her eternal peace yesterday, which may seem like denial to some, but to me it is still possible until we have irrefutable evidence to the contrary!

OMG - I really have to crash!

May Tori be found and returned to her loved ones today!:wub:

Greetings'
Hope4Tori"

I agree' It's not over until it's over; meaning until her body is found. Until all the questions are answered. Until every i is dotted and every t crossed.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Do any of you know if online petitions hold any weight when it comes to changing policies as in this case?

I had planned to take 3 days in June to go to Ottawa.

My plan was to send the RCMP an email and request an appointment to see them. I want to know what is required to change the Amber Alert policy and was hoping they would help guide me and let me know what needs to be done.

June 22, 23 & 24th. are the days I already have requested time off from work.

Any Canadians wanting to join me, please PM me.

just been watching all the news links and Tara's PC and seeing the accused flying around..I broke so my boys sent me to band camp..J/K just wanted to let everyone know if I can help in anyway I am here..I am not from Canada I do have family living in Canada...

I pray they find her soon I can not imagine the pain:crying:

[aproudmom]

I am listening to a PC did I hear that this girl said if she had knew it was Tori she would not have took her?? in the video it looks like tori knew this women I guess I could be wrong since the video was grainy

[Amy]

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping TLM can tell the police where Tori is buried. I'm just wondering big time here, if TLM, is telling the truth? The article said; that TLM, wanted to get back at her boyfriend for seeing other women?
Gez' this TLM does sound kind of vindictive!!!
Interesting how she tried to dye her white coat and article does state she had coat with her when arrested.

Another thing' I kind get the impression that maybe the cops didn't believe her at first. I mean if they were still interrogating another woman as mentioned in the article. This all kind of makes a person go hmmm-doggy.

Moonlite

Wonder if TLM's mom knew there was an association with TLM and Tori?:? The neighbor (Racine?) says he was told that TLM and MR had taken her coat "and other clothes" to London for disposal? What would be the reasoning behind her telling that? Especially if it hadn't happened @ all.

[aproudmom]

Greetings"
N/T'

I'm hoping TLM can tell the police where Tori is buried. I'm just wondering big time here, if TLM, is telling the truth? The article said; that TLM, wanted to get back at her boyfriend for seeing other women?
Gez' this TLM does sound kind of vindictive!!!
Interesting how she tried to dye her white coat and article does state she had coat with her when arrested.

Another thing' I kind get the impression that maybe the cops didn't believe her at first. I mean if they were still interrogating another woman as mentioned in the article. This all kind of makes a person go hmmm-doggy.

Moonlite

I was thinking the same thing what a way to get back at him cause she is going down also and I hope she ends up being charged with more I am sorry I feel she should ..she lured her away she did not come forward over guilt only to get back at him...and why dye the coat heck I would have threw it away..so the reason I am hearing she can not pin point the place she was left is because the change in seasons trees have leafs and so on..this is so sad I guess he is not helping in giving the location....

[aproudmom]

I agree with you on that. Tara was talking about her and James being the parents. Can you blame her though? Can you blame her for being angry at Rodney and his family for suspecting her? Let's be honest here. I'd be livid too.

Rodney hasn't been in their lives, never paid child support, he was looking at her school stuff at PC's for the first time. That was a choice he made. I'm sure he regrets it now but sadly, you can't turn back time. Daddy's girl is gone. :sad:

I thought of that when I just watched a interview just a few days after she went missing and he said he had not been the best dad and he knew that but she was his little girl..so like you said he will have to live with that for the rest of his life and agree I would be a little upset if my ex did that to me when I knew I had no reason to be taped she did say they all told Darren right so looks like she was at least thinking of him and having them all 3 tell him his sister was in heaven now...:crying:

[moonlite]

Wonder if TLM's mom knew there was an association with TLM and Tori?:? The neighbor (Racine?) says he was told that TLM and MR had taken her coat "and other clothes" to London for disposal? What would be the reasoning behind her telling that? Especially if it hadn't happened @ all.

Greetings'
Amy"

Who really knows what the truth is in this case. I mean, a person reads one article, then yet another pops up said something different.
Maybe' TLM's,mom got a little mixed up with what clothes were being disposed of? Maybe TLM, did dispose of other clothing or something?
I'm sure hoping the police have it all straight, because good gravy' I sure don't.
Honestly' I really don't know what to think? I keep going back and fourth with this case. I just think there is a whole can of worms going to be opened.

Moonlite

[moonlite]

I was thinking the same thing what a way to get back at him cause she is going down also and I hope she ends up being charged with more I am sorry I feel she should ..she lured her away she did not come forward over guilt only to get back at him...and why dye the coat heck I would have threw it away..so the reason I am hearing she can not pin point the place she was left is because the change in seasons trees have leafs and so on..this is so sad I guess he is not helping in giving the location....

Greetings'
AProudMom"

Yes' if TLM' is actually telling the truth, then finding Tori should not be a problem. I don't think a person would forget where they dumped a body. IMO I'm sorry for being graphic!!
Yes' TLM and her boyfriend should both get the death penalty. I know allot of people will not agree. But to me' a pedophiles is a waste of space and once the line has been crossed with killing, then there is nothing redeemable with that person.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

my bold

Where I live, there is almost NOTHING that cannot be traded for drugs.

imo

hate to say it but got to agree with you on this one

[aproudmom]

Greetings'
AProudMom"

Yes' if TLM' is actually telling the truth, then finding Tori should not be a problem. I don't think a person would forget where they dumped a body. IMO I'm sorry for being graphic!!
Yes' TLM and her boyfriend should both get the death penalty. I know allot of people will not agree. But to me' a pedophiles is a waste of space and once the line has been crossed with killing, then there is nothing redeemable with that person.

Moonlite

got to agree I think she would remember something about the area my gosh I don't think I could forget it if I played a part in dumping a child's body..seems media is using the change in foliage as to why she is having problems I am not sure just find it odd and I think I just heard she will continue until Sunday now..lets hope if true she suddenly grows a brain and brings this child back home..and why is she not being charged with murder from what I have read unless I missed it do we know for sure she played no part in her death she had no problem luring her to a waiting car and dumping her body so did she just decided to not be around for the murder of this child...they both need to rot if they did this to this sweet little girl...I have a feeling this was part of a plea if she would fess up to everything and help find the body..jmo though

[moonlite]

I am listening to a PC did I hear that this girl said if she had knew it was Tori she would not have took her?? in the video it looks like tori knew this women I guess I could be wrong since the video was grainy

Greetings"
AProudMom'

All I can say" Oh Please!!!! Like TLM' didn't know who Tori was.
TLM' I believe was at Tara's house at one time or another had met Tori.
Maybe it was Tara at TLM's house?
TLM' had been stalking the school for a few days as reported by the news articles.
There is premeditation here!!! I sure don't think it's whoops sorry I grabbed your kid.
If TLM is telling the truth' then Tori should be found.
I can't wait for the truth to come out. Because IMO' there is whole can of worms going to open up.

You probably did hear right!! Because nothing about this case makes sense.IMO

Moonlite

[moonlite]

got to agree I think she would remember something about the area my gosh I don't think I could forget it if I played a part in dumping a child's body..seems media is using the change in foliage as to why she is having problems I am not sure just find it odd and I think I just heard she will continue until Sunday now..lets hope if true she suddenly grows a brain and brings this child back home..and why is she not being charged with murder from what I have read unless I missed it do we know for sure she played no part in her death she had no problem luring her to a waiting car and dumping her body so did she just decided to not be around for the murder of this child...they both need to rot if they did this to this sweet little girl...I have a feeling this was part of a plea if she would fess up to everything and help find the body..jmo though

Greetings"
AProudMom"

If TLM' is truly involved. Then Yes' TLM needs to be charged with first degree murder. If I lived in Canada, and this happened. I would be screeching at every politician, police, anyone that makes laws or helps shape them. Because it would be a mockery' to let someone like TLM, off on any less charge than first degree murder and the death penalty.

Rafferty' deserves no less!!!

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Greetings"
AProudMom'

All I can say" Oh Please!!!! Like TLM' didn't know who Tori was.
TLM' I believe was at Tara's house at one time or another had met Tori.
Maybe it was Tara at TLM's house?
TLM' had been stalking the school for a few days as reported by the news articles.
There is premeditation here!!! I sure don't think it's whoops sorry I grabbed your kid.
If TLM is telling the truth' then Tori should be found.
I can't wait for the truth to come out. Because IMO' there is whole can of worms going to open up.

You probably did hear right!! Because nothing about this case makes sense.IMO

Moonlite

First of all you are very sweet noticed you always say Greetings thank you

I thought that was very odd so Tara said that surely to goodness this girl did not tell her that personally wonder where she heard that from I have to agree a lot of odd things in this case did Tara not say that she did meet her 1 time when she went to her moms house to talk about breading the dogs..maybe I did not hear her right in her PC..actually I am not sure I even heard she had the kids with her when she went to talk about breeding the dogs she only went 2 times and never went back because she used a lot of profanity

[aproudmom]

I know she went through a lot but she will see down the road this is very normal in a lot of cases..I know it does not take her pain away but it is very normal to look at the parents and everything in their past or who they know or what kind of parent they are..I do pray her baby is brought home Tori needs to be laid to rest she was a sweet little girl that is now a sweet little Angel with that big smile that has melted so many peoples hearts...




WOODSTOCK -- After six weeks of suffering through not just the loss of her little girl but also daily accusations of guilt, of being a drug addict, of being a terrible mother -- Tara McDonald yesterday offered thanks


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/23/9544736-sun.html

[Amy]

Greetings'
AProudMom"

Yes' if TLM' is actually telling the truth, then finding Tori should not be a problem. I don't think a person would forget where they dumped a body. IMO I'm sorry for being graphic!!
Yes' TLM and her boyfriend should both get the death penalty. I know allot of people will not agree. But to me' a pedophiles is a waste of space and once the line has been crossed with killing, then there is nothing redeemable with that person.

Moonlite

Was just watching the rerun of Issues. A psychiatrist that was on reconfirmed what I had read in the past--that it is nearly impossible for a pediophile to change. They should NEVER, EVER be released back into society, IMO. People should not have to be looking @ every person and wonder if that person is a sex offender. There will still be some out there, the ones that haven't been caught. But it would sure be a whole lot less.

As they were discussing, the sex offender should not include the 18 y/o boy who was porking his 16 y/o girlfriend, but should be focusing on the freaking predators, the pediophiles (paraphrased, of course.)

[moonlite]

There's a few things here that bother me. One is from that article:

"Ms. McDonald failed in two of the questions asked her. The results suggested she had more information about Tori's disappearance than she was telling police, or that she'd had some advance knowledge that something wicked was her way coming. When detectives told her this (and though she many times suggested to reporters she had never been given the results, she had), she stormed out of the room."

I wonder what that could mean? I have a feeling--and please don't jump on me for this, it's just my opinion--that it may turn out to be significant.

Also, in one of the articles, it mentions that when police picked TLM up on April 12th, she was carrying her puffy white coat, which had been dyed "slightly pink." But I thought that her mother said that she and MR went to London to dispose of the coat and some other clothes? That doesn't make sense. I know her mother is pretty weird, but why would she say that? Just how much does she know?

What if this girl's just playing with LE? What if Tori's not dead, but locked up somewhere, or hidden somewhere? I know it's not likely, but would you trust anything this obviously crazy, angry, and bitter girl said? What if they sold her? Not TM, but TLM and MR?

Just thinking out loud. Wishful thinking, I suppose, that there may still be hope for Tori. I guess I feel the same way as Rodney--I can't bring myself to believe she's really dead until they find her body. :crying:

Greetings'
KittyMama"

Nothing surprises me when it comes from Tara. I'm sorry to say that' IMO. I didn't think she passed her lie detector test. I kept asking about it. Maybe the police should not put all the nuts in one bowl' so to speak. I mean' hopefully the police are really looking at every angle. When I say that' I mean' Tara' IMO' I know proving anything is going to take an act from God.IMO

I know she is supposedly the grieving mom' etc. I just wish the real truth would come out.

This is just my IMO'

I'm sorry but I do need to say one thing' I still think Tara is involved either advertly or inadvertently. IMO'

Moonlite

[moonlite]

Was just watching the rerun of Issues. A psychiatrist that was on reconfirmed what I had read in the past--that it is nearly impossible for a pedophile to change. They should NEVER, EVER be released back into society, IMO. People should not have to be looking @ every person and wonder if that person is a sex offender. There will still be some out there, the ones that haven't been caught. But it would sure be a whole lot less.

As they were discussing, the sex offender should not include the 18 y/o boy who was porking his 16 y/o girlfriend, but should be focusing on the freaking predators, the pediophiles (paraphrased, of course.)

Greetings"
Amy"

Yes' I agree with you" as you so eloquently put it " the 18yr porking his 16 yr girlfriend.LOL
Yes' I'm talking only about the predators, the perps, the pedophiles.
Every State, Country, Region, etc needs laws that will protect the children.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Was just watching the rerun of Issues. A psychiatrist that was on reconfirmed what I had read in the past--that it is nearly impossible for a pediophile to change. They should NEVER, EVER be released back into society, IMO. People should not have to be looking @ every person and wonder if that person is a sex offender. There will still be some out there, the ones that haven't been caught. But it would sure be a whole lot less.

As they were discussing, the sex offender should not include the 18 y/o boy who was porking his 16 y/o girlfriend, but should be focusing on the freaking predators, the pediophiles (paraphrased, of course.)

I have heard that from alot on those shows..they will never change and I don't even like talking about this cause I have been attacked for saying anything like I support someone breaking the law but my cousin who was a senior in HS 18 slept with his G/F she was a week away from 16 he got 5yrs when he broke it off and peed her off and she told her parents..so I agree not only because this happened to my cousin he did his time but he will have to register as a SO for the rest of his life and he is not the only one that her parents charged and now she is married to the other guy that went away for pizzing them off...I think they should some how separate them or put more information on the charges this happens all the time around here when it is not rape or molestation it was consensual and young and dumb teens that had no idea what could happen..my BIL is a Judge he told my cousin to just plea or he could get up to 15yrs..so I do not come from a family of criminals..and I have been raped and he did not even get 2yrs because I knew him and took him home because he was drunk and I am so against drinking and driving so his lawyers blamed me..

[aproudmom]

Greetings'
KittyMama"

Nothing surprises me when it comes from Tara. I'm sorry to say that' IMO. I didn't think she passed her lie detector test. I kept asking about it. Maybe the police should not put all the nuts in one bowl' so to speak. I mean' hopefully the police are really looking at every angle. When I say that' I mean' Tara' IMO' I know proving anything is going to take an act from God.IMO

I know she is supposedly the grieving mom' etc. I just wish the real truth would come out.

This is just my IMO'

I'm sorry but I do need to say one thing' I still think Tara is involved either advertly or inadvertently. IMO'

Moonlite

and you have every right to give your opinion..so no sorrys needed here..all I heard is she stormed out during the test never heard she passed it other than her saying it..IIRC

[n/t]

just been watching all the news links and Tara's PC and seeing the accused flying around..I broke so my boys sent me to band camp..J/K just wanted to let everyone know if I can help in anyway I am here..I am not from Canada I do have family living in Canada...

I pray they find her soon I can not imagine the pain:crying:

Thanks mom. I know how much you care about children. Remember how pissed I was when an Amber Alert wasn't issued for Sandra? Same case here. Sadly, both girls lives were taken away too soon. :sad:

[n/t]

Greetings"
Cantstandnuts'

I like your name.LOL I just wanted to add' that TLM, being seen around Tori's, school could be construed as premeditation. Does Canada have the death penalty? I'm not sure how Canadian laws work, but I know in the USA, TLM and her boyfriend would possibly be facing the death penalty.

Moonlite

No we don't have the death penalty here. I wish we did.

[aproudmom]

I pray they find little Tori and bring her home to rest in peace :crying:

OK I am outta here for the day got to get ready for my Lil sisters wedding..have a great day everyone:seeya: :patriot:

[aproudmom]

Thanks mom. I know how much you care about children. Remember how pissed I was when an Amber Alert wasn't issued for Sandra? Same case here. Sadly, both girls lives were taken away too soon. :sad:

yep I sure do I was so angry they did not put one out like she really runaway we just do not know if it could help a child even with out a car or tag number they should put out everything else IMO

[n/t]

I disagree with Ms. Blatchford regarding the Amber Alert.

1) Why did the police wait until the following day to retrieve the video? If they wanted to, they could've had it that night for god's sake. They're the police. Instead they called to get confirmation whether or not the case met the Amber Alert critera. What a waste of time! Maybe every police station in the country should have it plastered on their walls just in case. :rolleyes:

2) As far as I know, there's no set time as to when an Amber Alert can be issued. Yes, the first few hours are critical in a missing child case but when they had confirmation the next day that this was indeed an abduction from the surveillance video, they should've issued one immediately but instead they decided that Tori willingly walked with the abductor so she couldn't have been in danger. What a bunch of hooey!!!


3) Yes, stastistically missing children are taken by quarrelling parents but they had Tara, Rodney and James that same night telling them she was abducted but of course, as we know now, they didn't believe them and continued on with their own theory that Tara did it.

Wrong wrong wrong... if anything I hope they learned something from the mess they created. A child is dead and they have a lot of explaining to do not just about the Amber Alert but the way they handled this entire case, imo

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toris-mother-police-process-are-both-vindicated-at-last/article1150281/

[n/t]

Great article about Woodstock and Oxy abuse.

The seedy side of small-town Ontario
The slaying of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford has put the spotlight on a community suffering the scourge of drug abuse

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-seedy-side-of-small-town-ontario/article1150591/

[n/t]

Waiting for Tori to come home
Police warn search could be slow and painstaking
http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485271

[Jester]

Great article about Woodstock and Oxy abuse.

The seedy side of small-town Ontario
The slaying of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford has put the spotlight on a community suffering the scourge of drug abuse

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-seedy-side-of-small-town-ontario/article1150591/

Police have said that the criteria for an Amber Alert were not met.

Amber Alert Criteria Canada

1. Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
2. The victim is a child under 18 (but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
3. There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/omc-ned/news-nouv/amber-eng.htm
Date: 2008-12-22

[n/t]

April 17

Police respond to the family's anger, labelling the case an abduction for the first time. Oxford Community Police have been reluctant to use the term, because the child appears to have willingly gone along with her kidnapper. The force also requests help from the OPP, which will add to the resources to aid in the hunt.

April 17

The first non-family criticism of local police seeps into the case, after a former Toronto Police officer involved in the Holly Jones search wonders why the Oxford force waited so long to call the crime an abduction and didn't immediately issue an Amber Alert. His implied criticism is tempered because he knows the force is working with limited resources.

Local cops respond Amber Alerts are usually only called when there's reason to believe a youngster is in imminent danger and there is specific information about a suspect. They had no such information in this case.


Great timeline link with details.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_34707.aspx

[n/t]

Police have said that the criteria for an Amber Alert were not met.

Amber Alert Criteria Canada

1. Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
2. The victim is a child under 18 (but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
3. There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/omc-ned/news-nouv/amber-eng.htm
Date: 2008-12-22

Morning Jester

It took them 9 days to confirm an abduction! Thanks for the link.

I posted a link to the timeline right after your post. I will do some research on the Holly Jones case and see how that was handled. Bruce Smollett is the former Police officer they're referring to in the link posted.

[n/t]

Having the suspect on the searches is a total waste. Throw her back in jail. We're into day 4 and she hasn't done a darn thing to help find Tori's body.:thumbdown:

I have some errands to run...be back in a bit.

[Jester]

Do we know that Terry Lynne says she was drugged up when she kidnapped Tori? I got the impression from Tara's comments yesterday that TL was at the elementary school several times to abduct a child. Was she drugged up every time? Is she saying that she was drugged up to suggest diminished capacity?

If she was drugged up to the extent that she cannot remember where she and Rafferty took Tori, then she should have been visibly drugged up at the school. Did school staff not notice a crazed looking 18 year old at the school? If she has a long history of drug abuse, I think it's possible that she doesn't know (black out stupid) where she and Rafferty took Tori. I'm inclined to go along with Tara at this point and think that Terry Lynne is enjoying some helicopter rides without knowing where Tori is. I also think police should have asked her to retrace their steps by car, not helicopter. Even the most clever and alert people would be challenged to retrace steps by air rather than by car.

Terry Lynne's friend said that TL was abused as a child. TL's mother said her response was to not allow the abuser to see TL after the abuse, but she did not report the abuse. TL's friend said that it traumatized TL throughout her childhood. Why did TL then turn around and traumatize another child? The vindictive factor comes in not only when Rafferty found another girlfriend, but also possibly because Tara was a generous spirit towards Carol. Maybe TL was jealous. TL has said Tori was randomly selected, and the police seem to believe that, but the dog connection ... breeding small dogs, Tori loving dogs, TL taking the dog to the school to lure Tori ... seems there's more to it.

[Jester]

Morning Jester

It took them 9 days to confirm an abduction! Thanks for the link.

I posted a link to the timeline right after your post. I will do some research on the Holly Jones case and see how that was handled. Bruce Smollett is the former Police officer they're referring to in the link posted.

I think the problem with issuing an Amber Alert for Tori was this:

"4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known)."

If there had been a report about a green car, it would have been incorrect and it could actually have interfered with identifying the right person. Information from the video did lead to tips about TL (amongst many others), but there was still no evidence. She was picked up on an unrelated warrant, so she was at least taken off the street while police continued to investigate (police didn't ignore the tip).

[M_J]

Good Morning All,

Wishing all of the Americans in the board a good memorial weekend.

I was just coming on to check and see if there is any new info. I don't quite understand why LE are still only charging TLM with abduction and accessory to murder or w/e. If she lured Tori, brought her to MR, and I'm assuming helped him to hide the body, (otherwise she wouldn't be involved in searches.. but who knows, LE has been ..dumb.. IMO this whole time..) she should be charged with a lot more. I see many people also agree with me.

I have asked several people via fb and email to sign the online petition. I will re post the link here for anyone that might not be able to find it.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

I hope she comes home soon, but I don't expect her to. :sad:

[lizzard]

Greetings"
AProudMom"

If TLM' is truly involved. Then Yes' TLM needs to be charged with first degree murder. If I lived in Canada, and this happened. I would be screeching at every politician, police, anyone that makes laws or helps shape them. Because it would be a mockery' to let someone like TLM, off on any less charge than first degree murder and the death penalty.

Rafferty' deserves no less!!!

Moonlite

Sadly, we do not have the DP here. We mostly give them a slap on the wrist and a pretty ankle bracelet.:cursing:

jmo

[Jester]

Sadly, we do not have the DP here. We mostly give them a slap on the wrist and a pretty ankle bracelet.:cursing:

TL needs to be charged with murder. First degree murder should get both of them a 25 years sentence.

[n/t]

No abduction attempts in Fergus

Ontario Provincial Police want to dispel rumours of attempted child abductions in the small town of Fergus just before the abduction and alleged April 8 killing of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford of Woodstock.

"There's nothing that's been reported in Fergus that I know of," OPP spokesperson Const. Keith Robb said yesterday. "As far as I know, there's no basis to the allegations about Fergus."

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/485278

[n/t]

Good Morning All,

Wishing all of the Americans in the board a good memorial weekend.

I was just coming on to check and see if there is any new info. I don't quite understand why LE are still only charging TLM with abduction and accessory to murder or w/e. If she lured Tori, brought her to MR, and I'm assuming helped him to hide the body, (otherwise she wouldn't be involved in searches.. but who knows, LE has been ..dumb.. IMO this whole time..) she should be charged with a lot more. I see many people also agree with me.

I have asked several people via fb and email to sign the online petition. I will re post the link here for anyone that might not be able to find it.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

I hope she comes home soon, but I don't expect her to. :sad:


Over 8000 names! :thumbup:


I just sent an email to the person who started the petition. Will keep you all posted. In the meantime, I have a lot of work to do and I better start getting busy in my research!

Contacting Mr. Provencher will be one of my next steps. I'd like to know what he's done in his quest to make the changes to the system. :smile:

[JD1974]

umm James was "hanging out" over there because as explained today, they had wondered about her from the beginning and even more after the sketch (yes i know she denied recognizing her to the media and so would i have if i wanted tori alive..and also was afraid for my son, but LE knew) so James went over quite a few times looking to see if there was any trace of Tori.

Was rafferty arrested there? I thought it was TLM's mother who was dragged out cursing and screaming by police. I just can't remember exactly where he was arrested. However, as far as mom not liking him, I don't believe a word that comes out of TLM's mothers mouth.

and btw. you dont "barter" with dealers. Not for minor drug use - as in you aren't a big dealer working for a larger one. You pay the street rate.

imo


IMO it is the opposite, the minor dealers barter all the time. I know someone who recieved a laptop for 10 Oxy's...the people who get Oxy's themselves barter. I take them on a daily basis and you wouldn't believe the stuff I have been offered for mine! I always just tell them if they need them so bad, go to the doctor like I do.

[JD1974]

I am really curious to know what evidence they have on these 2, I am almost wondering if TLM isn't trying to throw her boyfriend under the bus for this? Seems odd, JG goes to the house, the car was in another area when Tori was taken? I am totally confused..is this a scam on TLM's part or do they have the evidence? I hope they aren't basing all these charges on just what she is saying.

[cantstandnuts]

(snipped with respect to save space)


Anyway, can you imagine how long this board would have lasted if everyone agreed about everything all the time? :w00t:

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

This board would have been long gone had we all happily agreed about everything, H4T. One of the great things about this site is all the knowledge that people have that gets shared here and how varied it is. This is actually my daily newspaper of sorts. It's where I come for news and the insights into that news. I just love it here.

One of the reasons I am so convinced that Tara loves that child so much is that she was actually willing to point to TLM even though it would likely result in some unsavory aspects of herself coming out, assuming there was the Oxy connection, of course. And for James to go over there looking for hints of Tori is another example. They put themselves out there for scrutiny with these actions (again, assuming the involvement wasn't about dogs, but rather drugs) and that says a lot. They were willing to take the heat in order to get little Tori back. Some would have avoided the connection at all costs to save face and even though they may have lied about why they had such an association in the first place, they had to know the truth would probably come out in the long run and yet, they still did the right thing for Tori.

I hope they find her soon. :crying:

[cantstandnuts]

Just watch...those two animals will be pointing the fingers at each other.
Makes me sick that her lawyer (lawyers that take those types of clients make me ill) can stand there and throw pixie dust on a child murder and we are all supposed to have a warm fuzzy feeling about it.
I really do hope that there has been information provided that is useful because I will be even more disgusted if that witch is wasting everybody's time.

ITA. But, I'm afraid this may be time wasted. They looked through rock piles and now they're searching fields? Which is it TLM? Did ya put her in a rock pile or a field? I think this twisted individual is playing with everyone at this point.

The press described her as stoic. I found that an odd way to describe her. Stoic implies brave. She's vacant, empty, dead inside. Ick.

[cantstandnuts]

I get confused by Tara's words. Early on, when the sketch was first released, Tara said she did not know anyone who would match that sketch. Now, Rodney was saying it reminded him of someone in high school--would that mean from before when he was in high school, or now while he is in high school? Tara said several times, the sketch reminded Rodney of someone, but it didn't remind her of anyone.

Now, today as I am reading, Tara is saying that she recognized the sketch as being TLM and told LE @ the time?

Then, the first I read about Tara and whether or not she knows TLM is that they went to her house about dog breeding, and saw how little furnishings there were, so she wanted to give TLM a couch. A neighbor seems to confirm this, as there was a couch Tara wasn't able to sell, the friend suggested what to do w/it, and Tara said she was going to give it to a friend, which turned out to be TLM. The next I am reading is that Tara is saying she didn't know TLM @ all, certainly didn't have drug dealings w/her, MIGHT have SEEN her @ her mom's house, but didn't talk to her.

So, if she had only seen her once, the impression TLM left w/her was such that she could recognize her from a sketch? And, why would she first be saying the sketch didn't remind her of anyone she knew, then turns around and says she recognized her and gave her name to LE?

I'm thinking she may have initially not wanted to admit any association with TLM because drugs were in fact involved, but then realized she had to point to TLM to get Tori back, so fabricated the dog story to cover up the truth. The inconsistencies seem to point to her wanting to get TLM out there for scrutiny, but also wanting to keep quiet the reason she knew her.

[cantstandnuts]

Greetings"
Cantstandnuts'

I like your name.LOL I just wanted to add' that TLM, being seen around Tori's, school could be construed as premeditation. Does Canada have the death penalty? I'm not sure how Canadian laws work, but I know in the USA, TLM and her boyfriend would possibly be facing the death penalty.

Moonlite

Greetings, Moonlite. I like your name, too! I don't believe, but can't state as fact that there is no death penalty in Canada. I'm sure the Canadians here can say for sure.

[JD1974]

Too late to edit my post, I take Oxycodone not Oxycontin..I know there is a chemical difference but have no idea about any street difference...I need them and do not want to go to jail so I keep mine to myself lol

[JD1974]

ITA. But, I'm afraid this may be time wasted. They looked through rock piles and now they're searching fields? Which is it TLM? Did ya put her in a rock pile or a field? I think this twisted individual is playing with everyone at this point.

The press described her as stoic. I found that an odd way to describe her. Stoic implies brave. She's vacant, empty, dead inside. Ick.


That's why I am kind of wondering if she confessed for some sick sense of fame?

[JD1974]

Greetings, Moonlite. I like your name, too! I don't believe, but can't state as fact that there is no death penalty in Canada. I'm sure the Canadians here can say for sure.

I don't live in Canada but from the posters who do live there I have gleaned there is no DP. Slap on the wrist kind of thing.

Actually I recall that pig farmer that murdered all those women only recieved years and he killed a lot of women!

[cantstandnuts]

Thanks mom. I know how much you care about children. Remember how pissed I was when an Amber Alert wasn't issued for Sandra? Same case here. Sadly, both girls lives were taken away too soon. :sad:

I don't understand why these little children don't meet the criteria for amber alert. They are at risk for serious bodily harm (one of the criteria)if they aren't found because they are tiny and can't fend for themselves! I don't get it. These children's disappearances meet the criteria as it is defined IMO.

[cantstandnuts]

Police have said that the criteria for an Amber Alert were not met.

Amber Alert Criteria Canada

1. Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
2. The victim is a child under 18 (but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
3. There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/omc-ned/news-nouv/amber-eng.htm
Date: 2008-12-22

Must they meet all criteria? This case meets #3 just by virtue of the child's age. She can't just wander all over the place and not be in imminent danger!

[cantstandnuts]

That's why I am kind of wondering if she confessed for some sick sense of fame?

That could be, but she did a lot of suspicious things (cut hair, dyed white coat) after the disappearance and was hanging out at the school prior.

[cantstandnuts]

I don't live in Canada but from the posters who do live there I have gleaned there is no DP. Slap on the wrist kind of thing.

Actually I recall that pig farmer that murdered all those women only recieved years and he killed a lot of women!


I remember him. OMG, he's a real sick one.

And n/t confirmed No DP.

This whole thing sure smacks of Homolka. That was the very first case that brought me to CTV. Horrific case! And she's free now. Awful. I hope there isn't a similar outcome, but TLM is 'cooperating' with LE and pointing to MR, so it's shaping up very similar so far.

[Hollyhocks]

I pray they find little Tori and bring her home to rest in peace

OK I am outta here for the day got to get ready for my Lil sisters wedding..have a great day everyone:seeya: :patriot:

How FUN! Have a terrific day...and best wishes to your sister!:thumbsup:

[janesdeaan]

ITA. But, I'm afraid this may be time wasted. They looked through rock piles and now they're searching fields? Which is it TLM? Did ya put her in a rock pile or a field? I think this twisted individual is playing with everyone at this point.

The press described her as stoic. I found that an odd way to describe her. Stoic implies brave. She's vacant, empty, dead inside. Ick.

Exactly what I am thinking, she may be stalling in order for more time to pass so advanced decomposition will make it harder for LE to determine TOD, COD and for evidence in general to be gone !!

[lizzard]

I remember him. OMG, he's a real sick one.

And n/t confirmed No DP.

This whole thing sure smacks of Homolka. That was the very first case that brought me to CTV. Horrific case! And she's free now. Awful. I hope there isn't a similar outcome, but TLM is 'cooperating' with LE and pointing to MR, so it's shaping up very similar so far.

I have a scenario, it's full of holes, so bear with me. What if TLM is nothing but a liar, at least as far as the Bernardo/Homolka theory goes?
That is nothing more than a diversion, so that LE will absolutely allow her to cooperate, and pay attention to her,(no deal here, just her volunteering info, giving someone else (nobody throw anything, I'm not suggesting Tara) time to move the body elsewhere, hoping to avoid LE finding it - no body, no charge. She's only 18, not the sharpest imo, may not realize that doesn't necessarily matter. At some point, she tells LE she made it up, and in her mind they let her go because there is no body. As I say, it is full of holes, the largest being where does the B/F fit in. This just keeps fogging in and out of my brain, somebody shoot me down.
I have another one that involves Tori still being alive, but that's just because it's what I want to believe:crying:

[Hollyhocks]

Exactly what I am thinking, she may be stalling in order for more time to pass so advanced decomposition will make it harder for LE to determine TOD, COD and for evidence in general to be gone !!

I find it almost impossible to believe that TLM really knows where poor little Tori's body is. if she did, it would have been found by now!
How about involving MR?
If he was at the Home Depot...he knows where she is!

TLM is getting 'free time' out of her cell as far as I am concerned!

[cantstandnuts]

Exactly what I am thinking, she may be stalling in order for more time to pass so advanced decomposition will make it harder for LE to determine TOD, COD and for evidence in general to be gone !!

That's a thought. I keep thinking, though that this 18 year old is just playing with everyone as far as her so called cooperation and either doesn't know where the body is or does but is never going to say. I saw some of her facebook stuff and she's really dark and really angry and she could be leading everyone around to give them hope only to dash it later, prolonging the agony and causing pain for everyone.

JMO

[cantstandnuts]

I have a scenario, it's full of holes, so bear with me. What if TLM is nothing but a liar, at least as far as the Bernardo/Homolka theory goes?
That is nothing more than a diversion, so that LE will absolutely allow her to cooperate, and pay attention to her,(no deal here, just her volunteering info, giving someone else (nobody throw anything, I'm not suggesting Tara) time to move the body elsewhere, hoping to avoid LE finding it - no body, no charge. She's only 18, not the sharpest imo, may not realize that doesn't necessarily matter. At some point, she tells LE she made it up, and in her mind they let her go because there is no body. As I say, it is full of holes, the largest being where does the B/F fit in. This just keeps fogging in and out of my brain, somebody shoot me down.
I have another one that involves Tori still being alive, but that's just because it's what I want to believe:crying:


I want that, too. I still have a glimmer...barely.

She may be trying for a reduced charge, but I think it could be more primative and she's just enjoying stringing everyone along because she can inflict more suffering on all. It may not mean anthing except that I've got an overactive imagination and am reading too much into her entries there, but her facebook page frightened me and paints a picture of a deeply disturbed individual who hates the world and wants to hurt whoever she can.

Joseph Duncan proved to be someone who was bent on inflicting as much pain as he could on society and did that with his crimes. She could be similar.

Just thinking out loud again...

[n/t]

No apology for missing Ont. girl's family as police resume search

“We are aware that she's complained to the media about police handling of the case,” said Maitland. “We don't make an apology in stating that our goal was to find Victoria Stafford at all costs and everyone and everything is quote, unquote suspect until they are completely ruled out or prove to be of no interest to police investigators.”


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/apology+missing+girl+family/1624202/story.html


:huh: So they haven't ruled any of them out yet? Tara is still a suspect?

[n/t]

Police ask for tips from landowners as search resumes for girl's body
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/23/stafford-search.html\

ETA Some interesting comments by readers at the end of the article.

[canada]

I think the police need probably cause to get a search warrant. Maybe 8 people suspected Terry Lynne, and maybe they all reported their thoughts to the police. There were probably a lot of other names that were also mentioned. At one time, police were looking in other provinces because of tips. Tips don't justify a search warrant.

They could have asked TLM if they could look in her home...any innocent person would welcome the police to have a look. I am sure they could have gotten a warrent to search for the white coat. I am not sure what else they could have put on the search warrant but I am sure they could have gotten one based on the numerous suspicions by neighbors.

[canada]

Police have said that the criteria for an Amber Alert were not met.

Amber Alert Criteria Canada

1. Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
2. The victim is a child under 18 (but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
3. There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/omc-ned/news-nouv/amber-eng.htm
Date: 2008-12-22


Thank you Jester.
I think we can all agree that this case met the criteria. I think an alert should have been issued. Would it have saved Tori's life? Doesn't sound like it but it may have brought the suspects into contact with the police quicker as people may have paid more attention to their surroundings.

Has it been said if the police issued a BOLO (be on the lookout) to all surrounding police forces?

[Hope4Tori]

Hey everybody!:wub:

http://www.thestar.com/gta/columnist/article/638602

Please read this article - I cannot comment right now - I am speechless!:scared: And when I am speechless it is scary!

excerpted " . . .one obscure detail emerges as most strange and haunting: The revelation that Daryn had sensed something suspect about one of the accused, Terri-Lynne McClintic.

Tori's dad, Rodney Stafford, told the Star's Raveena Aulakh on Wednesday that Daryn had earlier mentioned the name Terri-Lynne and "that address'' – the house on Wilson St. where McClintic resided with her mother."

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

[canada]

It took them 9 days to confirm an abduction!

When I first heard about this case and saw the video I couldn't figure out why it took LE so long to call this an abduction.

Hmmm...lets see...we have video of an unknown female walking with the child who is missing. What more do you need?
Sure Tori was walking with the female willingly...she did not jump out of the bushes and snatch her. Why hold back on calling this an abduction? LE botched this in so many ways.
I am so angry.

[n/t]

Hey everybody!:wub:

http://www.thestar.com/gta/columnist/article/638602

Please read this article - I cannot comment right now - I am speechless!:scared: And when I am speechless it is scary!

excerpted " . . .one obscure detail emerges as most strange and haunting: The revelation that Daryn had sensed something suspect about one of the accused, Terri-Lynne McClintic.

Tori's dad, Rodney Stafford, told the Star's Raveena Aulakh on Wednesday that Daryn had earlier mentioned the name Terri-Lynne and "that address'' – the house on Wilson St. where McClintic resided with her mother."

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

Hey H4T

He must've gotten it from James. If you read the next paragraph, he describes exactly what James apparently noticed when he went to the house.

[n/t]

When I first heard about this case and saw the video I couldn't figure out why it took LE so long to call this an abduction.

Hmmm...lets see...we have video of an unknown female walking with the child who is missing. What more do you need?
Sure Tori was walking with the female willingly...she did not jump out of the bushes and snatch her. Why hold back on calling this an abduction? LE botched this in so many ways.
I am so angry.

Yup, I agree. From what we know so far, it sure sounds like they did.

[n/t]

Thank you Jester.
I think we can all agree that this case met the criteria. I think an alert should have been issued. Would it have saved Tori's life? Doesn't sound like it but it may have brought the suspects into contact with the police quicker as people may have paid more attention to their surroundings.

Has it been said if the police issued a BOLO (be on the lookout) to all surrounding police forces?

I don't think we have BOLO alerts here.

[canada]

I don't live in Canada but from the posters who do live there I have gleaned there is no DP. Slap on the wrist kind of thing.

Actually I recall that pig farmer that murdered all those women only recieved years and he killed a lot of women!

There is no death penalty.
the MOST anybody can get "life" with no parole for 25 years. You can kill multiple people such as the pig farmer did and still only get no parole for 25. They always run life sentences concurrantly. It's sick.

TLM will probably be like Karla Homolka and get next to nothing and be released from jail in 5 years.
I really don't care if she had a tough life. So did many other people and they don't kill children. I also don't care about her state of mind and if it were polluted with drugs. She was sober enough to cover up her crime. The only reason she is "helping" (and I use that term very loosely) is because she wants to try and save her butt.

I pray that Tori is found today.

[canada]

That's a thought. I keep thinking, though that this 18 year old is just playing with everyone as far as her so called cooperation and either doesn't know where the body is or does but is never going to say. I saw some of her facebook stuff and she's really dark and really angry and she could be leading everyone around to give them hope only to dash it later, prolonging the agony and causing pain for everyone.

JMO

I saw her FB page too and doubt that she is all of a sudden being a model citizen and helping LE. She came across as "eff the world". Very angry and really into the gang/ghetto trash talk.
It's been how many days of "cooperation" and still no Tori.

Does anybody know if they have determined where Tori was killed? i.e. in one of their houses? Has it been said if Ident has gone to the houses and removed items etc.?

ITA with a PP who said that the more time that goes on that there will be little chance of finding TOD & COD. TLM is playing a game as far as I am concerned.

[Orleaner12]

Hello to all, hope you are enjoying your day wherever you may be...jsut popped in to catch up and read a few papers on line....have another link that I thought was interesting.....

http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/639199

[Jester]

Over 8000 names! :thumbup:


I just sent an email to the person who started the petition. Will keep you all posted. In the meantime, I have a lot of work to do and I better start getting busy in my research!

Contacting Mr. Provencher will be one of my next steps. I'd like to know what he's done in his quest to make the changes to the system. :smile:

Do you mind if I ask what changes people want to see? Is it point number 4, where the change should be that even if there isn't any information about the suspect or the vehicle, an Amber Alert should be posted?

It seems to be true that the criteria for an Amber Alert was not met, specifically, there was no accurate information about the suspect or vehicle. The argument that the public could become desensitized about Amber Alerts if every missing child - known to have been abducted or not - was on the Amber Alerts, people would stop paying attention.

[VC2]

Hey H4T

He must've gotten it from James. If you read the next paragraph, he describes exactly what James apparently noticed when he went to the house.

yep probably heard what james was telling Tara he had seen when he went to look around.

[Hollyhocks]

I read somewhere on here (sorry! Can't remember which article!) that TLM hid in the bathroom when the police came over to question the house occupants.

Hard to believe they would not have found her, though.

[streeter]

Thanks for the thread Jester. I hope the others know about the Holiday Forum. Most are new posters.

I think I'll start sending PM's letting them know.

Thanks for the heads-up, n/t! I'm thinkin "Holiday? What holiday?" LOL, I'm such a Canadian. :lol:

[Jester]

Must they meet all criteria? This case meets #3 just by virtue of the child's age. She can't just wander all over the place and not be in imminent danger!

I believe so. All criteria must be met before an Amber Alert can be issued. Police stated at the arrest PC that not all the criteria had been met, and I think the missing one was a description of a vehicle or suspect. Giving out incorrect information, such as a green car, rather than the blue car they have now identified, could be misleading. For example, if someone saw the video and thought it was Terry Lynne, but knew she didn't own a green car, they may not have provided her name to police.

[Jester]

They could have asked TLM if they could look in her home...any innocent person would welcome the police to have a look. I am sure they could have gotten a warrent to search for the white coat. I am not sure what else they could have put on the search warrant but I am sure they could have gotten one based on the numerous suspicions by neighbors.

I'm not convinced of that. I don't think that refusing to allow police the opportunity to come into the house and look around is justification for a search warrant. It is everyone's right to refuse to allow people to enter their homes unless the people trying to enter have a search warrant. Without proof that Terry Lynne owned a coat identical to the one in the video (like a store receipt), I think there wasn't much to go on.

[Jester]

Thank you Jester.
I think we can all agree that this case met the criteria. I think an alert should have been issued. Would it have saved Tori's life? Doesn't sound like it but it may have brought the suspects into contact with the police quicker as people may have paid more attention to their surroundings.

Has it been said if the police issued a BOLO (be on the lookout) to all surrounding police forces?

I think point number 4 is the debatable point. There was information to give to the public about the kidnappers but, because it appeared that Tori went willingly, police could not immediately say that she was kidnapped. The point here, that I think could be argued, is that it's easy to coerce some children to the extent that it could appear as though they are going willingly. Tori wasn't dragged away, she was lured away ... and that's the point where no one can say - from a distant video surveillance - whether it was willingly or not.

There was an Amber Alert in my area recently. A girl about Tori's age was lured away by a man that said he had a puppy in his vehicle. Her brother's saw what happened and got information about the vehicle. There is a similarity in that the girl was lured, not dragged, but there was also vehicle information.

[streeter]

Thanks for the link, Orleaner12. I know the article says a 3 month investigation, but am I the only one who thinks Miss Terri is singing like the proverbial canary??

OMG I can't believe I didn't clue in to this! :scared:

Thanks, lizzard. :wub:

And you know darn well that the cops would put out some phony "background" about the Oxy investigation to cover their own butts. I don't trust that Boss Hogg police chief. Even his "heartfelt" presser statement on Thursday was prefaced with a defensive statement about how phenominal the investigation was.

If they make a deal with this thing, then we didn't learn anything from the Homolka case. If the Canadian public were to gain anything from that debacle at all, it should at least be assurance that we would never have something like that happen again in our criminal law system.

My lack of faith in this police force leads me to worry that they are copping a deal behind the scenes and will cite privacy as an excuse for hiding it from the public, and the ink will be too dry to revoke it, which is what happened with Karla.

Now, I think, is the time to act on this. I appreciate your work, n/t, on the Amber Alert laws. I think the public also needs to mobilize NOW on preventative action against any plea deal. It can't be left to this LE.

What might get public outcry going is if the media were to do a story with Tim Danson (I think that's the name of the lawyer for the French/Mahaffey families), and former members of the Green Ribbon Task Force, and the justice that held the inquiry into the Bernardo investigation mistakes (Campbell?). I think people are riled up, but I am honestly afraid that this LE is going to do whatever they want unless a politician steps in. :angry:

[Jester]

There is no death penalty.
the MOST anybody can get "life" with no parole for 25 years. You can kill multiple people such as the pig farmer did and still only get no parole for 25. They always run life sentences concurrantly. It's sick.

TLM will probably be like Karla Homolka and get next to nothing and be released from jail in 5 years.
I really don't care if she had a tough life. So did many other people and they don't kill children. I also don't care about her state of mind and if it were polluted with drugs. She was sober enough to cover up her crime. The only reason she is "helping" (and I use that term very loosely) is because she wants to try and save her butt.

I pray that Tori is found today.

People like Paul Bernardo, and a few others, have the dangerous offender label, meaning he can be kept incarcerated indefinitely.

[Jester]

I saw her FB page too and doubt that she is all of a sudden being a model citizen and helping LE. She came across as "eff the world". Very angry and really into the gang/ghetto trash talk.
It's been how many days of "cooperation" and still no Tori.

Does anybody know if they have determined where Tori was killed? i.e. in one of their houses? Has it been said if Ident has gone to the houses and removed items etc.?

ITA with a PP who said that the more time that goes on that there will be little chance of finding TOD & COD. TLM is playing a game as far as I am concerned.

I'm speculating, but I'm assuming that TL lured Tori to the car, which was parked close to where we saw her on video. Once in the car, Rafferty probably drove in the direction of where they are now searching. Rafferty stopped the car, TL claims she walked away so Rafferty could assault Tori. At some point Tori was murdered, and most likely Rafferty then drove around looking for a place to leave her.

So ... I don't think they were in either Rafferty's or TL's mothers' homes.

[Jester]

I read somewhere on here (sorry! Can't remember which article!) that TLM hid in the bathroom when the police came over to question the house occupants.

Hard to believe they would not have found her, though.

She did. The neighbor was visiting (snooping) when the police did their door to door search. TL hid in the bathroom. The neighbor answered the door and when the police asked if anyone else was in the house, he said yes ... Terry Lynne. When he went to get her, she didn't want to give her name. The neighbor asked her if she kidnapped Tori, she said she didn't, so he said she had nothing to worry about and got her to the door to tell police her name. She was arrested shortly afterwards on an unrelated charge.

[Jester]

Just reading the above linked article:

"Eleven-year-old Daryn Stafford is the one who often walked his sister home from school, as he would probably have done on that fateful day, April 8, except that he'd accompanied another youngster, an autistic child, back to the boy's townhouse, as requested by the boy's father."

If anyone is suffering from guilt, it's the father of the autistic boy that didn't think to ask both children to walk his son home that afternoon. I didn't know this until reading it today. Daryn, of course, must be feeling just awful as well - not surprising he's angry. I hope he has some counseling available.

[n/t]

I'm not convinced of that. I don't think that refusing to allow police the opportunity to come into the house and look around is justification for a search warrant. It is everyone's right to refuse to allow people to enter their homes unless the people trying to enter have a search warrant. Without proof that Terry Lynne owned a coat identical to the one in the video (like a store receipt), I think there wasn't much to go on.

Didn't they get a search warrant to search Uncle John's house and his mom's in Cluny?

How did they manage to do that? I can't believe they couldn't have gotten one to search TLM's. Did they even bother? :rolleyes:

[Hope4Tori]

Hey everybody!:wub:

http://www.thestar.com/gta/columnist/article/638602

Please read this article - I cannot comment right now - I am speechless!:scared: And when I am speechless it is scary!

excerpted " . . .one obscure detail emerges as most strange and haunting: The revelation that Daryn had sensed something suspect about one of the accused, Terri-Lynne McClintic.

Tori's dad, Rodney Stafford, told the Star's Raveena Aulakh on Wednesday that Daryn had earlier mentioned the name Terri-Lynne and "that address'' – the house on Wilson St. where McClintic resided with her mother."



May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

Sorry folks - Quoting myself - in reference to the same link as per my previous post. . .and noted above

The above noted quoted comment concerns me because the details are exactly as was noticed by the neighbours and widely reported over the last few days since TLM/MR's arrests . . . IIRC those exact details were mentioned also by TM to the media at yesterday's pc when TM said JG went to TLM's area and made mention of these same concerns and they had told "someone" at LE . . . Were those suspicions of JG/TM's about TLM shared with RS or concealed from him?

Did RS alert TM/JG that DS had made such comments to him sometime earlier and that RS related DS's comments Wednesday to a reporter? How much earlier did RS hear of these comments by DS? Did he report the comments to LE? How can RS not find out exactly when and why DS had sensed something wrong about TLM? If someone had shared these details with DS prior to TLM's arrest I think he would know whom that is and be able to freely say, i.e JG and/or TM, IMO. IMO, these questions and more deserve to be pursued and answered.

There are various and conflicting published reports (links already posted)by both neigbours and TLM's mom about the white coat - it was discarded by TLM perhaps at a dumpsite? - perhaps in London? - it was dyed pink? - it was with her at the time she was arrested by LE on charges of breach of probation on April 12th?

And why did the concerned neighbours harbour the suspicious TLM when the police came to their home where she had been visiting - on/or prior to April 12, the day of her initial arrest? Since JG/TM were suspicious of TLM, did JG/TM insist that TLM be picked up by LE and did they ask for the help of any concerned neighbours to add support for that purpose? Did the neighbours directly approach JG/TM/RS to share their suspicions about TLM?

If JG/TM were that suspicious in those early hours or days or weeks about TLM why did they not relentlessly pressure LE to vigourously pursue the matter, just as they had been vigourously pursued? Did LE get good and convincing information from anyone? Did TLM's neighbours and/or her mom and/or JG/TM know she was incarcerated on/after April 12th? If not, did anyone question her unknown whereabouts and suddenly missing status for an unknown reason, as I imagine that would in and of itself have been worrisome in a community on high alert?

What was the date that LE first suggested that TM, TLM and/or others take the gait walk?

Sorry . . I know I'm rambling but I have so many nagging questions . . . . . .

Have a great evening everbody!

May all the questions be answered and may Tori be found and returned to her loved ones today!!!!!!!!

[n/t]

Do you mind if I ask what changes people want to see? Is it point number 4, where the change should be that even if there isn't any information about the suspect or the vehicle, an Amber Alert should be posted?

It seems to be true that the criteria for an Amber Alert was not met, specifically, there was no accurate information about the suspect or vehicle. The argument that the public could become desensitized about Amber Alerts if every missing child - known to have been abducted or not - was on the Amber Alerts, people would stop paying attention.

Yes. If there's reason to believe that the child was abducted as in this case, an Amber Alert should be issued.

It doesn't matter if they release wrong information at the time of the alert. It can always be updated and/or amended. We've seen that happen many times. I go back to Officer Smollet's quote which has become my sig line since April 17th. 2009.

I disagree that people become desensitized.

[n/t]

I'm speculating, but I'm assuming that TL lured Tori to the car, which was parked close to where we saw her on video. Once in the car, Rafferty probably drove in the direction of where they are now searching. Rafferty stopped the car, TL claims she walked away so Rafferty could assault Tori. At some point Tori was murdered, and most likely Rafferty then drove around looking for a place to leave her.

So ... I don't think they were in either Rafferty's or TL's mothers' homes.

I agree. What were they doing at the Home Depot, if that is indeed his car?

You would think they have surveillance video at the home depot parking lot or can't they question the cashiers? I'm sure there's even surveillance videos inside the darn store?

What is wrong with this police force? I can't believe they're that stupid. I want to know what the heck they're doing.:cursing:

[n/t]

Investigators say they believe that the vehicle, along with the suspects and Tori may have been in and around the parking lot of a Home Depot in Guelph during the early evening that day.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/community-grieves-for-tori-as-search-continues/article1150801/


Believe? hammer

[lizzard]

Yes. If there's reason to believe that the child was abducted as in this case, an Amber Alert should be issued.

It doesn't matter if they release wrong information at the time of the alert. It can always be updated and/or amended. We've seen that happen many times. I go back to Officer Smollet's quote which has become my sig line since April 17th. 2009.

I disagree that people become desensitized.

I agree.

The only concern I would have is wrong info ~ wrong car = no report, possibly. There must be a way to advise no info on vehicle if they are not absolutely sure.

[Jester]

Didn't they get a search warrant to search Uncle John's house and his mom's in Cluny?

How did they manage to do that? I can't believe they couldn't have gotten one to search TLM's. Did they even bother? :rolleyes:

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090508/CGY_Tori_StaffordSearch_090508/20090509/?hub=EdmontonHome

Found the above link. It says that the homes were searched, but doesn't mention a search warrant. The relatives welcomed the search, so it could be that no warrant was necessary.

[north-eh]

:laugh: Duh, Oh man I forgot this was a Holiday weekend for my American friends and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where everyone was! Well I do now. LOL!!
Geeze, now to catch up and Happy Memorial Day weekend to our American friends on the board.
Praying they will find little Tori and bring her home to her family so she can rest. God Bless her.
N

[Jester]

Yes. If there's reason to believe that the child was abducted as in this case, an Amber Alert should be issued.

It doesn't matter if they release wrong information at the time of the alert. It can always be updated and/or amended. We've seen that happen many times. I go back to Officer Smollet's quote which has become my sig line since April 17th. 2009.

I disagree that people become desensitized.

So do I understand that the petition should state that the Amber Alert should be activated without point number 4, or should point number 4 be expanded to include observations (not just vehicle and known suspect)? It seems that the police and RCMP are expecting that all 4 criteria be met before they're comfortable issuing an Amber Alert. It also seems to me that the police are unable to discern between a child going willingly, and a child being lured with promise of something they may want. Maybe the petition should also state that a parent's word is sufficient to verify that a child has been abducted. At this time, it seems like it's up to the police, and they're clearly not able to discern between lured away and willingness. Additionally, I'm concerned that there was some socio-economic discrimination. If Tori had been the daughter of a judge and a politician, no one would have doubted the claims of abduction. Maybe points like that need to be inserted into an Amber Alert petition - at least until police and RCMP can clear their heads of prejudice and skepticism.

I realize that there is already a petition circulating, but the point about the green car somewhat weakens the argument, IMO.

Here are the criteria again:

1. Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
2. The victim is a child under 18(but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
3. There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).

[Hope4Tori]

Thanks for finding this article, Hope4Tori. Rosie DiManno has always been an excellent reporter IMO. I can imagine that Daryn picked up this wording from JG, at least I hope he wasn`t at McClintic`s house himself.
There is something else in the article though that made me gulp for a moment. The father of the autistic child requesting Daryn to walk his son home that day? It`s the first time I hear who requested this and it makes me go hmmmmm.
I say hmmmm because - remember the JG and KP snowblower connection and KP`s girlfriend being Penny M.(edited by H4T) who got busted with him over the growth operation of 80,000? Her name pops up for some autism event coordination two years ago. I wonder if this is the same person. And wasn`t a disabled child "rescued" from KP and PM`s house of the growth operation that got busted in March this year? My head is spinning, I can not remember which articles this was all noted in but this nagging feeling that Daryn had been lured away from walking with Tori that day keeps sneaking back into my mind. Not that it matters much now other than to eventually see that Tori - and maybe even Tara and Rodney- had become victims in a grand scheme of others` drug debts. Time will tell.


Hey Think Tank - Thanks for your post! My churning stomach is telling me that more details are pending . . .

I wonder about whom the father of that child mentioned in RosieD's article is as well! What is the connection? And yes, it may be the reporter's interpretation when saying that DS was asked by the father - but she is highly regarded by not only you - and me - by many many others and she has a great reputation for accuracy as well as extraordinary descriptive flourish, IMO. I cannot imagine her adding any spin, IMO.

So - having said that - if DS was approached by the father when would that have occured? I imagine it wasn't directly to DS immediately after school April 8th because that doesn't make sense - IMO, the father if he were at the school that day would have assisted his own child home. TM has given the impression in several pcs and articles that this arrangement of DS walking the father's child home after school was fairly routine, and Tori often waited behind at the school for DS to return and then together they would continue to walk to their own home. Perhaps RosieD intended it only to mean that at some point DS was asked by the father to walk the child home as perhaps it was an expectation or standing request for some time - IDK.

In all the days prior to April 8th, by TM's own account, due to cold weather Tori and DS's nana LW had been driving them home. Perhaps the father of the child DS regularly accompanied home saw him in the morning of April 8th and made the request to him directly or to nana? Perhaps there was a phone call from the father asking for permission from TM or nana on the evening of the 7th or early morning on the eighth? IDK

As you mentioned (my bold in your message above) - and as others here have surmised - DS could have got the info from JG and/or TM, IDK. But I do wonder why he wouldn't just tell his Dad that, and if he did tell his Dad perhaps RS just didn't want to mention the source to a reporter? IDK

I remember the people and story you are referring to and I don't think your concern or theory is far-fetched - and as always good detective work on your part! :thumbsup:

Anything is possible still - and maybe we are all being manipulated by someone who does have the answers to these questions we all have and all the while TLM is in a remote field so-called assisting LE, as we are still going around endlessly in circles! Someone knows the whole truth, and IMO, the someone or someones are leading us all astray, JMO!:scared:

And it just occured to me that if TLM was in fact seen in the area of the school in the days prior to April 8th, and if she had been stalking Tori and planning to abduct her, she would have noticed that for several days prior nana had been picking Tori and DS up in a car, so why would TLM return on April 8th expecting Tori would not be driven home by nana as she had been in those days prior? That was the first day Tori was expected by TM to walk to her new home - and presumably with brother Daryn. TM said only two people in the world knew that info - TM and nana.

More questions . . .

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones tonight!:wub:

[lizzard]

:laugh: Duh, Oh man I forgot this was a Holiday weekend for my American friends and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where everyone was! Well I do now. LOL!!
Geeze, now to catch up and Happy Memorial Day weekend to our American friends on the board.
Praying they will find little Tori and bring her home to her family so she can rest. God Bless her.
N

Glad you found us, north-eh!:thumbsup:

To my American friends, :patriot:

[Hope4Tori]

I have a scenario, it's full of holes, so bear with me. What if TLM is nothing but a liar, at least as far as the Bernardo/Homolka theory goes?
That is nothing more than a diversion, so that LE will absolutely allow her to cooperate, and pay attention to her,(no deal here, just her volunteering info, giving someone else (nobody throw anything, I'm not suggesting Tara) time to move the body elsewhere, hoping to avoid LE finding it - no body, no charge. She's only 18, not the sharpest imo, may not realize that doesn't necessarily matter. At some point, she tells LE she made it up, and in her mind they let her go because there is no body. As I say, it is full of holes, the largest being where does the B/F fit in. This just keeps fogging in and out of my brain, somebody shoot me down.
I have another one that involves Tori still being alive, but that's just because it's what I want to believe:crying:

Hey Lizzard - nice to see you here !:smile:


I think your intution is telling you something like mine is telling me - with no confirmed details as to why LE made these arrests of TLM and MR, why should we believe they have compelling evidence? IMO, LE is expecting the public to trust them - blindly -and as for the accused we have few details to make any judgement, IMO. I will believe that Tori is in fact murdered when it has been irrefutably established as a fact . . .in the meantime for me, I just keep wondering how long it will take before the public will get any information that we can trust, JMO!

I am skeptical - LE supposedly has sufficient evidence to support the assertion that Tori has been murdered and they supposedly have evidence to substantiate murder charges. I am waiting to see what evidence LE has and whose account of the circumstances they are going by, JMO.

I am exhausted - physically and emotionally spent from wondering - never in my life have I spent such dedicated time and energy in front of a computer trying to figure something out - and the more I think I know - the less I know for sure!

Have a great Saturday night folks! I'm making a much needed escape for now . . .

May Tori be found and returned to her loved ones today~:wub:

[doctor_J]

I'm just not ready to criticize LE until we know about the investigation. They've been
extremely tight-lipped and have had NO LEAKS. This is practically unheard of in the US, but some of you Canadians have said it is SOP there. We don't know if or when they tried to get a warrant on TLM' house or if a judge would not sign off on what little they had. We don't know how long it took to "break" Terri. We do know they locked her up on the 4th day after the abduction and made her "walk the video walk".

Look what they had to work with. The missing child lived with 2 Oxycontin addicts that couldn't pass a LD. They had Tara's ultra bizarre behavior and lack of emotion. They had statistics to consider but were apparently running parallel investigations too.

They had 1000's of tips and had to sort thru ALL of them. They didn't know which ones would turn out to be good ones. They had goofballs calling in tips and wingnut psychics and dreamers. They had people calling in from MB's like this one giving "tips" because they thought they had it figured out.

They couldn't believe a word out of Tara's mouth because she constantly contradicted herself.

We don't know WHEN the neighbors reported their suspicions. They might have just put it together now and are telling the story like they had it solved back then.

As far as we know, no one tipped them to MR until Terri finally broke. They must have been working on her the whole time. BUT even that was clouded, and still is, by Tara and James murky association with Carol and Terri.

I think Rodney coming out with Daryn knowing and suspecting Terri is his way of starting to reveal that he suspects the kids were acquainted with that residence and those 2 people due to the drug connection.

I think Tara and James put this child at high risk and that Tori was targeted due to that association. We'll have to wait and see and may never know. Tara's not going to tell the truth or accept any responsibility. IMO, she's still behaving bizarrely. She's as pulled together and cold and self-centered as ever. I think she's been contemplating a lawsuit all along and has already suggested her plans.

[doctor_J]

GUGAG ---IF YOU CAN READ THIS EMPTY YOUR PM BOX SO I CAN HELP!

Sorry folks, one of our members is having problems and I have no way to reach her/him.

[doctor_J]

Folks --Several of our Canadians friend are lost and cannot find the Temporary forum because they are not aware of the Memorial Day holiday board. They can pm but not post because they are on the wrong board. Their PM's are full because they have been seeking help. They think they are banned but are not. I was the same way yesterday and spent hours trying to get on.

What can we do to help them find this board??? We need an alert on main page.

[moonlite]

Great article about Woodstock and Oxy abuse.

The seedy side of small-town Ontario
The slaying of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford has put the spotlight on a community suffering the scourge of drug abuse

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-seedy-side-of-small-town-ontario/article1150591/

Greetings"
N/T'

Thank you for the link. I have an off topic question. Why do OXY drug users get methadone? How does that methadone keep them from being drug addicts? I'm not understanding' so I thought,I would ask.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Folks --Several of our Canadians friend are lost and cannot find the Temporary forum because they are not aware of the Memorial Day holiday board. They can pm but not post because they are on the wrong board. Their PM's are full because they have been seeking help. They think they are banned but are not. I was the same way yesterday and spent hours trying to get on.

What can we do to help them find this board??? We need an alert on main page.

o no they don't see the holiday forum thread? not sure what else to do if their PM is full..let me know if I can help out..is there a bunch that don't know how to get on the holiday forum

[doctor_J]

o no they don't see the holiday forum thread? not sure what else to do if their PM is full..let me know if I can help out..is there a bunch that don't know how to get on the holiday forum

Proudmom, 3 have pm'ed me but I can't reply because their box is full. They all think they are banned without notice just like me and ThinkTank but if they can pm they are not banned. Is it possible to put an alert on front page of regular IS page?

[mrsmcgoo]

Investigators say they believe that the vehicle, along with the suspects and Tori may have been in and around the parking lot of a Home Depot in Guelph during the early evening that day.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/community-grieves-for-tori-as-search-continues/article1150801/


Believe? hammer


This whole thing is making me madder by the minute!

I haven't read the links yet and by some of the posts I know I am going to be wild by the time I finish reading.

I think this is crap, shabby, rotten police work. Is this the best we have to offer our children for protection?

:cursing:

[moonlite]

I'm just not ready to criticize LE until we know about the investigation. They've been
extremely tight-lipped and have had NO LEAKS. This is practically unheard of in the US, but some of you Canadians have said it is SOP there. We don't know if or when they tried to get a warrant on TLM' house or if a judge would not sign off on what little they had. We don't know how long it took to "break" Terri. We do know they locked her up on the 4th day after the abduction and made her "walk the video walk".

Look what they had to work with. The missing child lived with 2 Oxycontin addicts that couldn't pass a LD. They had Tara's ultra bizarre behavior and lack of emotion. They had statistics to consider but were apparently running parallel investigations too.

They had 1000's of tips and had to sort thru ALL of them. They didn't know which ones would turn out to be good ones. They had goofballs calling in tips and wingnut psychics and dreamers. They had people calling in from MB's like this one giving "tips" because they thought they had it figured out.

They couldn't believe a word out of Tara's mouth because she constantly contradicted herself.

We don't know WHEN the neighbors reported their suspicions. They might have just put it together now and are telling the story like they had it solved back then.

As far as we know, no one tipped them to MR until Terri finally broke. They must have been working on her the whole time. BUT even that was clouded, and still is, by Tara and James murky association with Carol and Terri.

I think Rodney coming out with Daryn knowing and suspecting Terri is his way of starting to reveal that he suspects the kids were acquainted with that residence and those 2 people due to the drug connection.

I think Tara and James put this child at high risk and that Tori was targeted due to that association. We'll have to wait and see and may never know. Tara's not going to tell the truth or accept any responsibility. IMO, she's still behaving bizarrely. She's as pulled together and cold and self-centered as ever. I think she's been contemplating a lawsuit all along and has already suggested her plans.

Greetings"
Doctor J'

I agree' I agree!!! I could not have said this any better myself. I wish the Canadian child protective services takes a good look at Tara's, parenting skills. I mean when a parent exposes their children to known dangers that is neglect. I think taking drugs' being high on them is neglect when you have children.

Moonlite

[aproudmom]

Greetings"
N/T'

Thank you for the link. I have an off topic question. Why do OXY drug users get methadone? How does that methadone keep them from being drug addicts? I'm not understanding' so I thought,I would ask.

Moonlite

I do not know much about drugs but IIRC methadone is actually used to help people get off of certain drugs to take the side effects away or lessen them but in a lot of cases they ended up mis-using methadone just as they did Crystal METH...Anna Nicole Smith was hooked on it along with tons of other things..and her son Daniel also had it in his system the night he died in her hospital room along with other substances..in other words it is used to help someone get off of a certain drug but often they can not go without it...if not used in the correct way

[doctor_J]

[/COLOR]

Greetings"
Doctor J'

I agree' I agree!!! I could not have said this any better myself. I wish the Canadian child protective services takes a good look at Tara's, parenting skills. I mean when a parent exposes their children to known dangers that is neglect. I think taking drugs' being high on them is neglect when you have children.

Moonlite

WOW, I thought I was the only one and I'm still ready to dodge rotten tomatoes!:laugh:

[aproudmom]

Proudmom, 3 have pm'ed me but I can't reply because their box is full. They all think they are banned without notice just like me and ThinkTank but if they can pm they are not banned. Is it possible to put an alert on front page of regular IS page?

I am not sure it something can point them to the holiday thread but sounds as if no one has been banned or it would not even go to the full PM..are they trying to post on other threads..how do you know they cant find the thread? did someone PM you..wish I knew what we could do hate to lose people thinking they got banned..does CW post alerts on holidays I know most of us now but some didn't know to come here this morning even on other threads they thought the forum was shut down for the holiday weekend..

[doctor_J]

Greetings"
N/T'

Thank you for the link. I have an off topic question. Why do OXY drug users get methadone? How does that methadone keep them from being drug addicts? I'm not understanding' so I thought,I would ask.

Moonlite

Moonlite, I sent you a pm about this question.

[mrsmcgoo]

Petition that was posted here has 9099 signatures at present! :thumbsup: