May 22

[n/t]

We're going into the 3rd. day of the search. Bring Tori home :rose:

[n/t]

Who was Tori Stafford?

Could her smile have been any sweeter?

With that sunny grin and blue eyes, Victoria (Tori) Stafford's face is no doubt now known by millions who felt they knew her, even if they didn't.

....more at the link :crying:

http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1579584&auth=Patrick%20Maloney,%20SUN%20MEDIA

:rose:

[n/t]

Here is a another article on Rafferty. He is another Oxycontin user, to some degree. Not sure if it has been posted yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/638574

May Tori be found immediately!

Thanks for the link.

Here's another one.....when I read these 2 comments made by him, it sent chills down my spine.

====
I have bad days these days more then (sic) good," Rafferty wrote in an online profile. I dwell on the past and wish I could go back and change some things and do it all over again ... maybe just the last five years.

I am sorry everyday and feel the pain of knowing that if I had done something different, then life as I know it would be filled with joy."


http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1578359

[M_J]

For those who have followed the case from the beginning, I need your help...

Do you remember when Tara said one of her best friend was on the list to pick up Tori but she said she felt it wasn't right to reveal her name? IIRC, it wasn't Sara because this friend was someone who was a neighbour at the other place or lived close by and Sara had already made the news at the time.

Anybody remember that? Who is this best friend?:scared:

n/t, I thought that on the list was Tara, James' mom, and I guess the best friend you are asking about was whom I thought she said was a neighbour in her old area. I don't think she ever said who it was, but I do know that she said it was someone from the old neighbourhood. I have to go to work soon, but I will re-watch a few of the recent pc's she had done and try to find out for sure. (I know she mentioned it again not too long ago - sometime last week for sure.) I know it wasn't Sara who was on the list, because remember, she didn't "really" know the kids, so Tara wouldn't have had them on it. Plus, Sara just moved back to Woodstock recently anyways - so definately not her. Maybe it could be the mom of one of the children with Special Needs that Daryn walked home? Not sure who it was, but I know it wasn't Sara.

[Maelstrom5]

Here is a another article on Rafferty. He is another Oxycontin user, to some degree. Not sure if it has been posted yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/638574

May Tori be found immediately!

TY for the link ThinkTank,

The more we learn about Michael Rafferty, the more he fit’s the profile of a sociopath. Well dressed, friendly, harmless on the surface, but off to those who get to know him well.

Several reports said that many of his romantic relationships seem to have broken down because of un-named sexual proclivities. We know he was on the net a lot and a review of his computer searches will probably tell more about him. It would not surprise me if the police find he went to a number of very dark places on the net.

I think we will eventually learn he had a number of fantasies but probably would not have acted on the worst of them alone, he needed a kindred spirit to go there and he found one in Terri-Lynne McClintic. Killer teams are often like that, by themselves they are sick and troubling, together they are deadly.

[mrsmcgoo]

copied over here from 21st thread....concerning a data base here in Canada from Anniepooh.

I'm with our mrs, but where does one start with this? I am a "helper", not an administrator... but if you want to get something going, I am here to help.

The most I have done thus far is converse back and forth via email with the RCMP concerning the public's right to who and where these criminal are, as they have in the US.

I am not sure where to start beyond that, but I assume it would be with our MLA's and representatives in our area. A bill would have to be passed, I guess. I have thought this would fall into the category of our rights to information act. Perhaps contacting W5 or Fifth Estate would help. Not sure how to get this all going however, but like you would gladly and enthisiastically help in anyway.

[streeter]

I'm reposting my post that ended up on the bottom of the last thread, because I'd like to know how others feel about the way LE is handling TLM's information.

I think I'm going to be in the minority on this, but I'm having doubts about TLM's account of what happened after she snatched Tori off the street.

I am not only doubting the depth of her involvement. I am doubting the role that she has attributed to MR.

There's something about that court appearance. He is in tears, she is stoic. This, after supposedly being brow-beaten into a "confession." You would think the floodgates of emotion would have been bursting open for days after six weeks of holding it all inside. You assisted in a horrible thing that somebody did, and you feel you must "cooperate to the fullest" or whatever that article said in order to bring Tori home to her loved ones, but at the court appearance and laying in the back of a car during the body search you are ... void of expression. Vacant.

MR has no criminal history that maps out the escalation of criminal activity that you would expect with this type of crime. He is crying at the court appearance. He has no chance to speak, as it's just an arraignment, and nobody from his camp is speaking to the media, so we don't know his story. I'll be interested to see how he pleads to the charges.

I know, here I go talking about behaviour again, just like with Tara, but there's just something about this whole thing that doesn't ring right.

What troubles me the most about these charges is that this group of LE has not proven themselves to be capable of responding to a crime of this magnitude. By all accounts, the arrests happened very quickly after TLM spilled the beans, giving very little time, IMO, to place MR at that place and time on April 8. Was he even interviewed? Did he have a chance to provide an alibi?

Why do I have the feeling that LE's whole case is based on the words of an extremely unstable and anti-social teenager with a drug problem?

Let's not forget that these cops said in the beginning that Tori looked like she was going with someone she knew, so that's a "good" thing. They are certainly capable of thinking that TLM is a woman which means she must have been coerced by big, bad male MR to help him carry out his evil deed. Their ignorance, IMO, knows no bounds. I have no doubt that they were at a dead end in the investigation and that they are trusting this troubled teenager without skepticism.

I am very disturbed by the way this is going down. I really want to hear his side of things.

Am I the only one with these bad vibes?

I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting MR is innocent of all wrongdoing. I just have a feeling that LE is dealing with the devil and, considering their past behaviour, they are probably most willing to do so. They just seem so gullible. :angry:

[mrsmcgoo]

On the news this morning, it showed a picture of TLM getting into a helicopter. She has removed her braids and had a ponytail in. Wondering if she is changing her looks again to help hide any suspicious activity she may have been witnessed doing after Tori was abducted.

Just a thought.

[mrsmcgoo]

I'm reposting my post that ended up on the bottom of the last thread, because I'd like to know how others feel about the way LE is handling TLM's information.

I think I'm going to be in the minority on this, but I'm having doubts about TLM's account of what happened after she snatched Tori off the street.

I am not only doubting the depth of her involvement. I am doubting the role that she has attributed to MR.

There's something about that court appearance. He is in tears, she is stoic. This, after supposedly being brow-beaten into a "confession." You would think the floodgates of emotion would have been bursting open for days after six weeks of holding it all inside. You assisted in a horrible thing that somebody did, and you feel you must "cooperate to the fullest" or whatever that article said in order to bring Tori home to her loved ones, but at the court appearance and laying in the back of a car during the body search you are ... void of expression. Vacant.

MR has no criminal history that maps out the escalation of criminal activity that you would expect with this type of crime. He is crying at the court appearance. He has no chance to speak, as it's just an arraignment, and nobody from his camp is speaking to the media, so we don't know his story. I'll be interested to see how he pleads to the charges.

I know, here I go talking about behaviour again, just like with Tara, but there's just something about this whole thing that doesn't ring right.

What troubles me the most about these charges is that this group of LE has not proven themselves to be capable of responding to a crime of this magnitude. By all accounts, the arrests happened very quickly after TLM spilled the beans, giving very little time, IMO, to place MR at that place and time on April 8. Was he even interviewed? Did he have a chance to provide an alibi?

Why do I have the feeling that LE's whole case is based on the words of an extremely unstable and anti-social teenager with a drug problem?

Let's not forget that these cops said in the beginning that Tori looked like she was going with someone she knew, so that's a "good" thing. They are certainly capable of thinking that TLM is a woman which means she must have been coerced by big, bad male MR to help him carry out his evil deed. Their ignorance, IMO, knows no bounds. I have no doubt that they were at a dead end in the investigation and that they are trusting this troubled teenager without skepticism.

I am very disturbed by the way this is going down. I really want to hear his side of things.

Am I the only one with these bad vibes?

I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting MR is innocent of all wrongdoing. I just have a feeling that LE is dealing with the devil and, considering their past behaviour, they are probably most willing to do so. They just seem so gullible. :angry:


You are not alone at all. I feel the same because I don't have any confidence in the LE. I have visions of Karla Holmolka, who blamed it all on Paul, both pond scum. But LE made that deal with her, only to find the videos of her front in center in the tapes with Paul, as a willing participant. I don't want a deal soley based on what happened in that case, and to me, it sickens me that TLM lured Tori, as Carla lured the victims in that case. I just don't know beyond that either.

JMO

[Gugug]

Here is a another article on Rafferty. He is another Oxycontin user, to some degree. Not sure if it has been posted yet.
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/638574

May Tori be found immediately!

The two accused supposedly met in a pizza joint. In the town where I used to live, the drug runners were pizza delivery guys. You know, order a pizza in code, meaningful only to the person who comes to your address.

[Gugug]

I'm reposting my post that ended up on the bottom of the last thread, because I'd like to know how others feel about the way LE is handling TLM's information.

I think I'm going to be in the minority on this, but I'm having doubts about TLM's account of what happened after she snatched Tori off the street.

I am not only doubting the depth of her involvement. I am doubting the role that she has attributed to MR.

There's something about that court appearance. He is in tears, she is stoic. This, after supposedly being brow-beaten into a "confession." You would think the floodgates of emotion would have been bursting open for days after six weeks of holding it all inside. You assisted in a horrible thing that somebody did, and you feel you must "cooperate to the fullest" or whatever that article said in order to bring Tori home to her loved ones, but at the court appearance and laying in the back of a car during the body search you are ... void of expression. Vacant.

MR has no criminal history that maps out the escalation of criminal activity that you would expect with this type of crime. He is crying at the court appearance. He has no chance to speak, as it's just an arraignment, and nobody from his camp is speaking to the media, so we don't know his story. I'll be interested to see how he pleads to the charges.

I know, here I go talking about behaviour again, just like with Tara, but there's just something about this whole thing that doesn't ring right.

What troubles me the most about these charges is that this group of LE has not proven themselves to be capable of responding to a crime of this magnitude. By all accounts, the arrests happened very quickly after TLM spilled the beans, giving very little time, IMO, to place MR at that place and time on April 8. Was he even interviewed? Did he have a chance to provide an alibi?

Why do I have the feeling that LE's whole case is based on the words of an extremely unstable and anti-social teenager with a drug problem?

Let's not forget that these cops said in the beginning that Tori looked like she was going with someone she knew, so that's a "good" thing. They are certainly capable of thinking that TLM is a woman which means she must have been coerced by big, bad male MR to help him carry out his evil deed. Their ignorance, IMO, knows no bounds. I have no doubt that they were at a dead end in the investigation and that they are trusting this troubled teenager without skepticism.

I am very disturbed by the way this is going down. I really want to hear his side of things.

Am I the only one with these bad vibes?

I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting MR is innocent of all wrongdoing. I just have a feeling that LE is dealing with the devil and, considering their past behaviour, they are probably most willing to do so. They just seem so gullible. :angry:

A body is not necessary for a charge of murder. It is, however, a crime scene which could provide investigators with useful information. Without it, they will need a lot of other evidence, especially eyewitness reports. I'm talking about reliable and credible eyewitnesses, which seem to be rare.

It is naive to believe anyone, including relatives, who abduct a child are looking out for that child's best interests.

[streeter]

The two accused supposedly met in a pizza joint. In the town where I used to live, the drug runners were pizza delivery guys. You know, order a pizza in code, meaningful only to the person who comes to your address.

Gugug, where do you see the pizza joint info? I looked in that article and I couldn't find it. :shrug:

[Gugug]

More alleged details:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/columnists/surveillance-camera-catches-accused-couple-on-day-tori-was-taken/article1147974/

[Gugug]

Gugug, where do you see the pizza joint info? I looked in that article and I couldn't find it. :shrug:

I believe it was in one of The Star articles. They were attributing that information to Carol McClintic, as told to the neighbors who informed police about TLM.

[juliekan]

n/t, I thought that on the list was Tara, James' mom, and I guess the best friend you are asking about was whom I thought she said was a neighbour in her old area. I don't think she ever said who it was, but I do know that she said it was someone from the old neighbourhood. I have to go to work soon, but I will re-watch a few of the recent pc's she had done and try to find out for sure. (I know she mentioned it again not too long ago - sometime last week for sure.) I know it wasn't Sara who was on the list, because remember, she didn't "really" know the kids, so Tara wouldn't have had them on it. Plus, Sara just moved back to Woodstock recently anyways - so definately not her. Maybe it could be the mom of one of the children with Special Needs that Daryn walked home? Not sure who it was, but I know it wasn't Sara.

At a PC, Rodney was asked about whose names were on the list at the school. He said he thought the friend/neighbor was a woman who lived by Tara in the co-op she used to live in. He said if that's who it was, she would never hurt Tori because she was a nice woman with kids of her own.
That's all I remember hearing about the 3rd name.

[Maelstrom5]

I'm reposting my post that ended up on the bottom of the last thread, because I'd like to know how others feel about the way LE is handling TLM's information.


Why do I have the feeling that LE's whole case is based on the words of an extremely unstable and anti-social teenager with a drug problem?



Am I the only one with these bad vibes?

I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting MR is innocent of all wrongdoing. I just have a feeling that LE is dealing with the devil and, considering their past behaviour, they are probably most willing to do so. They just seem so gullible. :angry:

*Respectively snipped for space.*

No streeter you are not alone. It's highly unlikely that MR would have been in the position to harm Tori unless TLM lead her away. Tori was fooled by a young woman into going, but it's very doubtful she would have gone with an adult male.

Of the two TLM seems to possess the most anger towards society in general. Several people here have suggested her motive was to destroy a young child who represented everything she was not.

We do know that when two people act in consort one is usually dominate and the other submissive. The Alfa male is not always, in fact; the male.

[Gugug]

Mentioned many places. Here's one:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/20090521/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[Hope4Tori]

Hey everyone - g'morning!

I am feeling - well I don't quite know how I'm feeling about what has transpired since the arrests of the accused in Tori's "murder" - yes I am actually beginning to wonder if Tori has in fact been murdered.

I am beginning to wonder what if . . . what's up with the search for Tori's remains and the assistance of TLM? . . . Sadly I have no confidence in the moment in LE - None - and that comment upsets me to write because I have always before following Tori's abduction had respect for LE - and I suppose high expectations . . . I gave them all the benefit of my many doubts as time passed hoping and wanting to believe that their silence is necessary and that whatever they knew - which I had hoped was a lot that we didn't - was not shared with the public because it could not be in order to conduct a proper investigation . . . I wanted to believe that they took every possible lead seriously . . . I wanted to believe that they would look at all angles and I felt sorry at times for them in having to try to unravel so many details and look at so many possible suspects - as we had been doing here . . .

I have raised my kids to have respect for the law . . . I have talked a lot about the case with my adult kids and one daughter cautioned me from the get-go that it is her opinion that LE usually gets a prime suspect in their sights and then focuses all their attention in one direction to make the evidence fit that one suspicious person or group . . . I had hoped that opinion would not be the case in Tori's abduction - and murder? - and I am wondering about it all this morning.

I have nothing but questions and more concerns today . . .

I guess, my own naiveté about legal investigations has caused me to be shocked by TM's account of LE's treatment of she and JG and especially DS. Not that I am completely shocked, if TM's account is true, and from what I have read so far (as per all previous links), I am wondering if the accused did or did not receive the same level of prolonged pressure, intensity and serious investigation from the first day that TLM was made known to LE by the neighbours . . .

I guess I expected LE to be more objective than members of the public whom are not privvy to tips, to have actually given those tips the all attention and scrutiny they deserved . . . but I wonder if indeed many tips were dismissed as useless because LE may have focused too intently in one direction, I'm just wondering . . .

Maybe my feelings are completely off base, but today I feel angry that more wasn't done sooner and better for Tori and her family . . . I am now skeptical of LE and their motives . . . it seems to me that if LE have succeeded in making the arrests of the right persons and the alleged accused not only abducted Tori but also murdered her without the assistance of anyone else, then they got lucky, IMO, because I don't yet see the skill I had expected to see . . .

I woke up this morning hoping for Tori . . .still . . .and maybe it's a denial I need to feel in the moment . . . but truthfully this morning I am confused about everything that has happened so far . . . and I'm angry about so much and I want to hear the truth . . . the whole truth . . . and nothing but the truth!

Everything in my post is just my opinion!

I am hoping for the TRUTH for Tori so that she may be reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[juliekan]

I saw this link while catching up on yesterday's reading

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/21/9530396.html

They are complaining that LE focused on them. I couldn't help but think this is a little off the wall, why wouldn't LE focus on someone who failed 2 lie detector tests? I also got an icky feeling that they were already back to making it "all about me." :huh:

I also wonder about the veracity of the allegations made against LE. I hope it's all on tape. I don't care how they questioned the adults, but I hope their questions to Daryn were more gently put than what they are reporting...

[Gugug]

According to a post elsewhere, Carol and Terri-Lynne lived in Mactier, Ontario at some point.

[streeter]

Mentioned many places. Here's one:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/20090521/?hub=TorontoNewHome

Thanks, Gugug. :wub:

Wow, this guy sure has a lot of ex-girlfriends coming out of the woodwork. :unsure:

[n/t]

Mothers of two children who were Victoria's friends were on Canada AM. They're in front of the home.
Video on the right.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090521/Tori_search_090522/20090522/?hub=TorontoNewHome

[Gugug]

Thanks, Gugug. :wub:

Wow, this guy sure has a lot of ex-girlfriends coming out of the woodwork. :unsure:

Gee, he was dating someone for two months earlier this year, and dating TLM for four months this year. It is May.

Previously, a bar worker described him in another article as a "ladies' man". More of those ladies need to come forward to the police and tell what they know.

[north-eh]

Good morning my fine friends.
I'm just logging on but wanted to comment about TLM and her desire to help in the search "out of the goodness of her heart."
I find that so hard to believe as it doesn't sound as though her heart is too full of goodness.
GMAB! She's doing it for her own selfish reasons of which I am sure we will find out.
Now I need to catch up and I'm praying right along with the rest of you that little Tori is found today and brought home to her family.
N

[Gugug]

At a PC, Rodney was asked about whose names were on the list at the school. He said he thought the friend/neighbor was a woman who lived by Tara in the co-op she used to live in. He said if that's who it was, she would never hurt Tori because she was a nice woman with kids of her own.
That's all I remember hearing about the 3rd name.

If it was one of the two women interviewed on CTV today, both seemed credible and articulate.

[n/t]

Rodney Stafford speaks.

Not sure when this was. I'm at work and no speakers. *sigh*

Video on the right entitled "Tori Stafford's father speaks"

http://toronto.ctv.ca/

[Orleaner12]

so Tori did know Terrilynn per this article...


http://www.thestar.com/Article/638603

[Gugug]

so Tori did know Terrilynn per this article...


http://www.thestar.com/Article/638603

Tori knowing TLM is new.

This is the second time a person has said that Tara and TLM knew each other. The first was a woman in the housing complex where Tara used to live, discussing furniture.

Now, have you noticed the excuse-making and revisionist history creeping in? "She had a hard life." How many times have we heard that before in criminal cases? The thing is, not everyone who has a hard life breaks the law, as TLM has done in the past. Some people grow up, get counselling and decide to walk on the right side of the law. I'm afraid this may be a prelude to, "She's the victim in all this, the victim of her dire circumstances in childhood, and so she should not be held accountable." Or, "she has XYZ problem (fill in the blank with your choice), so she didn't know what she was doing."

I've heard that "I had a hard life" excuse many times to justify abuse of others. It doesn't wash. Being the victim of abuse is never carte blanche for abusing others. Never.

Notice the mother Carol saying she did not let the man near her daughter again. But did she tell the police? No, I'm sure she would have mentioned it. And other things she's saying now about it all make her seem as though she is distancing herself from her daughter. No one would want to be implicated in any of this, would they?

Is Carol McClintic credible?

[n/t]

so Tori did know Terrilynn per this article...


http://www.thestar.com/Article/638603

Who knows. Again, we're faced with he said/she said.

Tara denies knowing TLM...

McDonald also denied reports that she and Goris bought the OxyContin painkillers from McClintic's mother, Carol.

She said she met McClintic's mother at most three times and McClintic was in the apartment once, but she didn't talk to her.

[VC2]

Hey everyone - g'morning!

I am feeling - well I don't quite know how I'm feeling about what has transpired since the arrests of the accused in Tori's "murder" - yes I am actually beginning to wonder if Tori has in fact been murdered.

I am beginning to wonder what if . . . what's up with the search for Tori's remains and the assistance of TLM? . . . Sadly I have no confidence in the moment in LE - None - and that comment upsets me to write because I have always before following Tori's abduction had respect for LE - and I suppose high expectations . . . I gave them all the benefit of my many doubts as time passed hoping and wanting to believe that their silence is necessary and that whatever they knew - which I had hoped was a lot that we didn't - was not shared with the public because it could not be in order to conduct a proper investigation . . . I wanted to believe that they took every possible lead seriously . . . I wanted to believe that they would look at all angles and I felt sorry at times for them in having to try to unravel so many details and look at so many possible suspects - as we had been doing here . . .

I have raised my kids to have respect for the law . . . I have talked a lot about the case with my adult kids and one daughter cautioned me from the get-go that it is her opinion that LE usually gets a prime suspect in their sights and then focuses all their attention in one direction to make the evidence fit that one suspicious person or group . . . I had hoped that opinion would not be the case in Tori's abduction - and murder? - and I am wondering about it all this morning.

I have nothing but questions and more concerns today . . .

I guess, my own naiveté about legal investigations has caused me to be shocked by TM's account of LE's treatment of she and JG and especially DS. Not that I am completely shocked, if TM's account is true, and from what I have read so far (as per all previous links), I am wondering if the accused did or did not receive the same level of prolonged pressure, intensity and serious investigation from the first day that TLM was made known to LE by the neighbours . . .

I guess I expected LE to be more objective than members of the public whom are not privvy to tips, to have actually given those tips the all attention and scrutiny they deserved . . . but I wonder if indeed many tips were dismissed as useless because LE may have focused too intently in one direction, I'm just wondering . . .

Maybe my feelings are completely off base, but today I feel angry that more wasn't done sooner and better for Tori and her family . . . I am now skeptical of LE and their motives . . . it seems to me that if LE have succeeded in making the arrests of the right persons and the alleged accused not only abducted Tori but also murdered her without the assistance of anyone else, then they got lucky, IMO, because I don't yet see the skill I had expected to see . . .

I woke up this morning hoping for Tori . . .still . . .and maybe it's a denial I need to feel in the moment . . . but truthfully this morning I am confused about everything that has happened so far . . . and I'm angry about so much and I want to hear the truth . . . the whole truth . . . and nothing but the truth!

Everything in my post is just my opinion!

I am hoping for the TRUTH for Tori so that she may be reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

I so agree with you! Your daughter is right, very often LE gets an opinion that a certain person did it and fits the evidence to that person (i don't mean illegally, i mean interpretively..for example Tara's daily pressers was not a mom trying to keep their missing child in the news, but instead like a munchausen by proxy mom wanting the attention. Whereas most parents are given credit for keeping the media going, in her case they decided she was guilty so it meant the opposite.) I think one of the things that makes me the maddest is the "limo story" which the globe and mail said did happen, but it was a cop "sting" to try and get evidence against her.

That is the one that made people on the fence hop off against her, seemed so bizarre and wild a story it must be a lie for attention. Yet the cops just smirked and said "we are not concerned about it" letting the public think the worst of Tara. No she is not a saint, but she and JG and Daryn were treated abominably by LE if its true what she said...and i have no reason to doubt it since we all saw that they were focused on her, did not put out an amber alert, mentioned a runaway! and really didn't follow up leads

They had TLM in custody for gods sake!!!! they don't seem to have even interviewed her, just put her into the "gait walk" bc she happened to be in the jail available! they had her name, they had the enhanced video and if a neighbor could recognize her from it then i am certain a video forensic expert could have matched her.

[n/t]

I get the sense that there's just no urgency for this police force with anything. Including finding Tori's body. Do they know what the heck they're doing?
-------

Police yesterday searched the same spot officers in the company of a cadaver-sniffing dog went over on Wednesday. This time, they concentrated on the second of two collapsed buildings, now little more than a pile of rubble.

Police idled beside the pile underneath the low-hanging boughs of a tree. After about 15 minutes, the police and McClintic left the scene.

Leroy said her client has not been offered any concessions by authorities for her cooperation.

"I can tell you that's not in her mind right now," said Leroy. "And there have been no conversations between myself and the Crown. It's way too early in the process."

It's not clear if McClintic will be personally involved in the search today. The judge's order that allowed her to accompany OPP officers expired at 10 last night.

After McClintic and her escorts left, a forensics truck arrived at the site. In the early evening, one investigator could be seen gingerly digging at the pile. Another took pictures. But there was no urgency to their work, now two days old and still fruitless.


http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/638620

[n/t]

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino told The Free Press in an e-mail that the force is committed to recovering the girl's body.

"This is a brutal crime of enormous proportion that continues to be investigated by the best of the best of the best, and who are now committed to recover Tori's remains," he said.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9535591-sun.html


Whatever.

[VC2]

i dont blame LE for looking at the parents btw. I blame them completely for not focusing on the perps whose name they were given by more than one person bc they were so tied into their theory that it was Tara (with absolutely zero motive to take her child and murder her-this wasn't like she disappeared from home where she may have been beaten and died, it was deliberate).

With McC in custody for breach of probation it would have been a simple matter to get a search warrant sworn out weeks ago. At least do that and see if anything related to the video is in her house! a few hours work not spent on focusing just on tara. Well i guess they couldnt' be bothered.

I don't blame Tara for lashing out, if you knew you were innocent and LE was not looking for anyone who took your child, i would lash out too. Don't forget that to us it made sense perhaps but she KNEW she wasn't involved. It isn't making it all about her, just like the daily media briefs weren't. They were clearly about keeping tori's story in the media even though half the reporters questions were about her guilt.

And what are the stages of Grief? Anger is one of them, right now placing it on LE is appropriate. They screwed up. Rodney has spoken out a few times since the arrests and no one is saying he is making it about him, even though he has talked about how angry he is, how devastated and his feelings. Yet no one mentions that in the article where she did talk to the reporter, she had to stop a few times she was crying so hard.

I am scared for Tara because she will finally talk to reporters live at 3 pm today, and i know she will be torn apart by those listening for daring to have a presser and if she says anything that sounds like she is angry or upset at LE's treatment of her family. Seems like she can't do anything right, she is going to be blamed.

imo

eta and i doubt she will talk to much about Tori, because how in hades do you hold yourself together enough in public to do so? She doesn't want to break down in front of millions, and be unable to speak at all. I think she wrapped herself very tightly during the 6 weeks, just hoping she was alive and would be found. Once the arrests happened she has nothing left. I hope her doc has given her meds, so she isn't reduced to oxy, she like any mother who has been told their child was assaulted and murdered is going to need something to help her through this.

IMO

[n/t]

Updated 3 minutes ago....

Live streaming from Woodstock at 3 p.m.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9535591-sun.html

[VC2]

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino told The Free Press in an e-mail that the force is committed to recovering the girl's body.

"This is a brutal crime of enormous proportion that continues to be investigated by the best of the best of the best, and who are now committed to recover Tori's remains," he said.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9535591-sun.html


Whatever.

yeah the best of the best. :thumbdown: they had the perp in custody and had been given her name on a silver platter. what a freaking insult to LE across the country. We do have superb investigators, experts and detectives but this crew...

btw the judges order to let TLM help has been extended 3 days

oh and cant remember if it was a link or on cp24 but there was a "no comment" from the lawyer when asked if the body could be in multiple locations :(

[n/t]

Updated

Search for Tori Stafford continues with help of accused woman

GUELPH — A judicial order that allows the woman charged with the abduction of Tori Stafford to aid in the search for her body has been extended through the weekend.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/22/9538976.html

[juliekan]

Updated 3 minutes ago....

Live streaming from Woodstock at 3 p.m.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9535591-sun.html

What is the PC for? Rodney/Tara to thank the community or what? Is it them or the OPP or who? TIA

[n/t]

What is the PC for? Rodney/Tara to thank the community or what? Is it them or the OPP or who? TIA

I think it'll be Rodney/Tara thanking the community and those who helped with the search. She said yesterday she would try to come out today.

[n/t]

yeah the best of the best. :thumbdown: they had the perp in custody and had been given her name on a silver platter. what a freaking insult to LE across the country. We do have superb investigators, experts and detectives but this crew...

btw the judges order to let TLM help has been extended 3 days

oh and cant remember if it was a link or on cp24 but there was a "no comment" from the lawyer when asked if the body could be in multiple locations :(

Yup..saw the update and posted the link.

[Hope4Tori]

I so agree with you! Your daughter is right, very often LE gets an opinion that a certain person did it and fits the evidence to that person (i don't mean illegally, i mean interpretively..for example Tara's daily pressers was not a mom trying to keep their missing child in the news, but instead like a munchausen by proxy mom wanting the attention. Whereas most parents are given credit for keeping the media going, in her case they decided she was guilty so it meant the opposite.) I think one of the things that makes me the maddest is the "limo story" which the globe and mail said did happen, but it was a cop "sting" to try and get evidence against her.

That is the one that made people on the fence hop off against her, seemed so bizarre and wild a story it must be a lie for attention. Yet the cops just smirked and said "we are not concerned about it" letting the public think the worst of Tara. No she is not a saint, but she and JG and Daryn were treated abominably by LE if its true what she said...and i have no reason to doubt it since we all saw that they were focused on her, did not put out an amber alert, mentioned a runaway! and really didn't follow up leads

They had TLM in custody for gods sake!!!! they don't seem to have even interviewed her, just put her into the "gait walk" bc she happened to be in the jail available! they had her name, they had the enhanced video and if a neighbor could recognize her from it then i am certain a video forensic expert could have matched her.

Hey VC2 - ITA - and I think your point that I highlighted in bold articulates my exact feelings - so many details in the present and the past few weeks - but this one issue is highly disturbing!

I have said here before and hoped that maybe LE was checking the posts on all message boards perhaps to get information or fresh approaches from others' expressed views, but now I feel terrible if they were monitoring everyone's ideas about Tori's disappearance and in part I feel responsible for posting any analyses and/or suspicions about anyone surrounding Tori, if my suspicions are about LE are correct, as it may mean that LE may have used the public's most popular notions to either convince themselves that they were on the right track with their own suspicions or perhaps they interpreted the "word on the street" to translate into a perceived support by the majority of the public in focusing on their chosen prime suspect, JMO. Perhaps if TM had been arrested, the public would have been satisfied and no others would have been questioned, if it had not been for those persistant neighbours of TLM, JMO. These are the things that I wonder about and if at all true, IMO, I as just one among hundreds of thousands, feel wrongly exploited and misused.

I expected that LE would not be finally forced into acceptance of another possible and credible direction when considering suspects, IMO. I can understand how that may happen to the public's opinion in the absence of information and with few facts and a relentless rumour mill churning - but LE? IMO, they should have known better - should have been wiser - should have been more open and objective to all possibilities, IMO.

Just because TM and perhaps others were not by LE's estimation sweet storybook characters, and just because the majority of public opinion seemed an ally with that popular view as many made similar if not far worse judgements, these opinions while worthy of honest investigation, no doubt, should not have led to the certain conclusion that it was with merit without much, much more than those type of moral judgements to support such a bias. The assessment of someone's questionable character and additionally the assigned guilt by unsavory associations are, IMO, what has been the driving force of LE and many others "investigation" of Tori's abduction and if true, murder.

I hope there is an inquest into the way LE has handled the case from April 8th at their first notifcation of Tori's disappearance. If I am wrong about how I interpret their handling of the case, I will not apologize because I have had, IMO, their help in forming my opinion to date.

Everything I have written in this post is JMO.

Tori God Bless you and may you be brought home today to your loved ones!:wub:

[n/t]

LeRoy says her client wants Tori’s family to know she’s doing everything she can to bring the girl’s remains home.



Awww...now ain't that freakin sweet of her. :cursing: :cuss: hammer

[brooklinite]

After McClintic and her escorts left, a forensics truck arrived at the site. In the early evening, one investigator could be seen gingerly digging at the pile. Another took pictures. But there was no urgency to their work, now two days old and still fruitless.


http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/638620

Respectfully snipped...

From a forensic background, I can tell you that it takes a very long time to recover evidence, particularly human remains, properly. Every piece of potential evidence must be painstakingly photographed, measured, documented and recovered and it takes far longer to do this than it looks on tv! Additionally, it can be especially time-consuming in the case of disarticulated remains scattered by elements/animals, etc. I'm not sure what/if they've found anything, but given the fact that a little girl is involved, I'm willing to bet that any evidence recovery will be executed beyond reproach so that it can't be picked apart at trial.

JMO and experience.

[n/t]

Respectfully snipped...

From a forensic background, I can tell you that it takes a very long time to recover evidence, particularly human remains, properly. Every piece of potential evidence must be painstakingly photographed, measured, documented and recovered and it takes far longer to do this than it looks on tv! Additionally, it can be especially time-consuming in the case of disarticulated remains scattered by elements/animals, etc. I'm not sure what/if they've found anything, but given the fact that a little girl is involved, I'm willing to bet that any evidence recovery will be executed beyond reproach so that it can't be picked apart at trial.

JMO and experience.


In your experience, if they found her remains, would they have said so by now. The fact that they're extending the search into the weekend with the suspect leads me to believe they found nothing.

[n/t]

Tori Stafford's mom to speak out Friday.

Video on the right.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/

[juliekan]

With all the questions about how LE handled this case, I just want to point out that if JLM is telling the truth, there is a good chance that Tori had already been killed by the time she was reported missing to LE, around 6pm. I hope LE eventually outlines what it did, or did not do during the search for Tori. IMO

[n/t]

You know what? I'm really pissed that they're taking her out on these helicopter rides. She should tell them behind her darn jail cell where the body is. I'm sure they have maps and other police equipment so she doesn't have to ride with them every freakin day.

Her riding along hasn't done a darn thing for 3 days.:cursing:

[brooklinite]

If they found her, I would imagine that it would have been announced within several hours. However, there is talk of multiple dump sites, which, if true, would explain a delay. I do believe that something of interest has been found in relation to the rock pile; there's no reason ident would stay there for two days otherwise. What has kept them focused on that site, however, could be just about anything - an article of clothing, a scent the dog hit on, etc. It could also turn out to have nothing to do with the case. It's much better to be too careful though, than to miss something or hurry, thereby making a sloppy procedural error that costs the case dearly later on.

[juliekan]

You know what? I'm really pissed that they're taking her out on these helicopter rides. She should tell them behind her darn jail cell where the body is. I'm sure they have maps and other police equipment so she doesn't have to ride with them every freakin day.

Her riding along hasn't done a darn thing for 3 days.:cursing:

I've been thinking the same thing....it's not like she was in a helicopter when they left the body....how would you see what looked like where you left her if you weren't in a car??

[n/t]

With all the questions about how LE handled this case, I just want to point out that if JLM is telling the truth, there is a good chance that Tori had already been killed by the time she was reported missing to LE, around 6pm. I hope LE eventually outlines what it did, or did not do during the search for Tori. IMO

The point is they didn't know that and her case should've been treated as an abduction and time is crucial when a child is abducted.

I would bet my last looney they thought she was at a friend's house or playing at the park or wandered off and got lost.

[brooklinite]

You know what? I'm really pissed that they're taking her out on these helicopter rides. She should tell them behind her darn jail cell where the body is. I'm sure they have maps and other police equipment so she doesn't have to ride with them every freakin day.

Her riding along hasn't done a darn thing for 3 days.:cursing:

I agree - it takes training and experience to spot ground disturbances/dump sites/etc. from the air, and McClintic obviously doesn't have that. While the topography has changed greatly over the past six weeks, I can't imagine what advantage having McClintic on the helicopter might give LE. Ground search in the van MAYBE, retracing steps, but there's nothing she can help with from the air IMO.

[juliekan]

The point is they didn't know that and her case should've been treated as an abduction and time is crucial when a child is abducted.

I would bet my last looney they thought she was at a friend's house or playing at the park or wandered off and got lost.



My point was just how fast these things can happen. LE was not notified until 6pm and she was abducted around 3:45. JLM said she was killed about an hour after she was abducted. So Tori was probably already dead by the time LE was even notified. :shrug:

[Hope4Tori]

Respectfully snipped...

From a forensic background, I can tell you that it takes a very long time to recover evidence, particularly human remains, properly. Every piece of potential evidence must be painstakingly photographed, measured, documented and recovered and it takes far longer to do this than it looks on tv! Additionally, it can be especially time-consuming in the case of disarticulated remains scattered by elements/animals, etc. I'm not sure what/if they've found anything, but given the fact that a little girl is involved, I'm willing to bet that any evidence recovery will be executed beyond reproach so that it can't be picked apart at trial.

JMO and experience.

Hey Brooklinite! :smile:

I want to believe that LE in this horrid part of their investigation is exactly as you describe with respect to such meticulous standards in recovering Tori's remains - if true there are remains to be recovered - I just wish I could believe that the same high standards by LE in every aspect of the case were employed throughout. IMO, they seem not to have lived up to their illustrious reputation. I sure hope cynicism doesn't replace all my hope, but today I do feel skeptical and cynical both. Today I don't know what to believe!

May Tori be found and reunited today with her loved ones!:wub:

[pattywack]

I've been thinking the same thing....it's not like she was in a helicopter when they left the body....how would you see what looked like where you left her if you weren't in a car??

IMO they are looking for more than one site. Don't forget that MR worked in a meat shop under a knife as stated by a former girlfriend.Also IMO she maybe had not been to the area before and quite possibly it was dark. Also things look quite different in just a few weeks in this country. JMO.

[lizzard]

You know what? I'm really pissed that they're taking her out on these helicopter rides. She should tell them behind her darn jail cell where the body is. I'm sure they have maps and other police equipment so she doesn't have to ride with them every freakin day.

Her riding along hasn't done a darn thing for 3 days.:cursing:

Too funny, n/t. I'm sitting here just livid for the exact same reason. The rides better be enjoyable, Hopefully it will be her last taste of freedom for a long, long time. :cursing:

[n/t]

My point was just how fast these things can happen. LE was not notified until 6pm and she was abducted around 3:45. JLM said she was killed about an hour after she was abducted. So Tori was probably already dead by the time LE was even notified. :shrug:

It could very well be she was killed only hours later but if they would've gotten the help from the OPP immediately instead of waiting 10 days later maybe Tori would've been found sooner and laid to rest by now. (or even found alive if she wasn't killed immediately)

The local police did not have the experience, manpower nor resources to search for an abducted child and they made a huge huge mistake.

Mind you, OPP didn't do any better either. *sigh*

[pattywack]

Too funny, n/t. I'm sitting here just livid for the exact same reason. The rides better be enjoyable, Hopefully it will be her last taste of freedom for a long, long time. :cursing:

Maybe they should try hypnosis. Worth a shot IMO.

[brooklinite]

Hey Brooklinite! :smile:

I want to believe that LE in this horrid part of their investigation is exactly as you describe with respect to such meticulous standards in recovering Tori's remains - if true there are remains to be recovered - I just wish I could believe that the same high standards by LE in every aspect of the case were employed throughout. IMO, they seem not to have lived up to their illustrious reputation. I sure hope cynicism doesn't replace all my hope, but today I do feel skeptical and cynical both. Today I don't know what to believe!

May Tori be found and reunited today with her loved ones!:wub:

My bold...

I hear you! Most of the forensics/ident people I've met are basically OCD with their work (and other things, too!) but I would respectfully submit that I have not always seen that tendency extend throughout other areas of LE...I guess we'll have to wait a while to see if any information about the investigation itself trickles down to us.

[n/t]

Too funny, n/t. I'm sitting here just livid for the exact same reason. The rides better be enjoyable, Hopefully it will be her last taste of freedom for a long, long time. :cursing:

They're probably buying her lunch too. :cursing:

[n/t]

Maybe they should try hypnosis. Worth a shot IMO.

I have a better solution. hammer

[Gugug]

Respectfully snipped...

From a forensic background, I can tell you that it takes a very long time to recover evidence, particularly human remains, properly. Every piece of potential evidence must be painstakingly photographed, measured, documented and recovered and it takes far longer to do this than it looks on tv! Additionally, it can be especially time-consuming in the case of disarticulated remains scattered by elements/animals, etc. I'm not sure what/if they've found anything, but given the fact that a little girl is involved, I'm willing to bet that any evidence recovery will be executed beyond reproach so that it can't be picked apart at trial.

JMO and experience.

I think we saw an example of that with the missing women case in Vancouver. Investigators had to hand-sift through dirt and fragments on the pig farm of Willy Pickton. They spent months there, with the area fenced off, conveyor belts going. Archaeology students were hired for their ability to spot bone and teeth fragments. A gruesome job, but enough evidence was found for a conviction.

[Gugug]

IMO they are looking for more than one site. Don't forget that MR worked in a meat shop under a knife as stated by a former girlfriend.Also IMO she maybe had not been to the area before and quite possibly it was dark. Also things look quite different in just a few weeks in this country. JMO.

Yes, they do, including the suspect herself. And there is the possibility of memory being impaired by certain things.

[juliekan]

They're probably buying her lunch too. :cursing:

I don't guess they serve knuckle sandwiches, do they :glare:

[Lorelei]

In one of the news articles, it states that TLM stepped away from the car while RM assaulted Tori. They would have had to find an isolated spot to do this and wouldn't have done this in broad daylight for fear of being spotted. Wouldn't this suggest thus happened much later? They would have needed time to look for an appropriate isolated place?


I feel so sad for this little girl and what she must have endured and what her family is going through.

[Gugug]

Who knows. Again, we're faced with he said/she said.

Tara denies knowing TLM...

McDonald also denied reports that she and Goris bought the OxyContin painkillers from McClintic's mother, Carol.

She said she met McClintic's mother at most three times and McClintic was in the apartment once, but she didn't talk to her.

And that brings us back to the composite sketch. Tara claimed to have no idea who it was. And yet, she says now that she told the police she suspected TLM. So, what is it? She didn't know her, so didn't have a clue that she resembled the sketch? Or she did know her, which is why she gave her name to the police?

[Hope4Tori]

The point is they didn't know that and her case should've been treated as an abduction and time is crucial when a child is abducted.

I would bet my last looney they thought she was at a friend's house or playing at the park or wandered off and got lost.

Hey n/t :wub: Thanks to you and Gugug and everyone for the posted links!:thumbsup:

ITA - TOTALLY - It's my opinion that LE made certain moral judgements about Tori's family right from the start - JG was prior known to LE prior - and the case IMO was dismissed not so important for the reasons you outlined - until public and press pressure was added - and once that happened they zoned in on their prime suspect, IMO and everything went down hill from there, IMO.

I imagine how different things may have been if Tori and her family had not had a colourful past, and if they had lived in one of the "better" areas of Woodstock - I do wonder if Tori would have received the urgent attention she deserved in the moment and in every moment since . . .JMO.

I am not yet convinced about TLM and/or MR - that there was a murder at all - I know that may sound incredulous - but I don't think we have enough information yet, and I highly doubt we will get all the facts for some time to come, JMO. If LE did receive pressure from public tips about TLM and/or MR - did they then feel pressured to make those suspects fit? - Especially if TLM says there was a murder and she can help locate Tori's remains? I don't know why anyone would say anything like that if it were untrue, but maybe a highly disturbed individual might? - under pressure when being interviewed by frustrated and determined LE?

I think at this point anything is possible, and I'm waiting to be convinced by LE that they indeed know what they are doing and have indeed made the right arrests, and have indeed located Tori and/or her remains, IMO.

May Tori be reunited with her family today!:wub:

[debbadoo]

Maybe they should try hypnosis. Worth a shot IMO.

Maybe they should try holding a gun to her ugly head and MAKE her tell them!:cursing::angry::mad:

[Gugug]

In one of the news articles, it states that TLM stepped away from the car while RM assaulted Tori. They would have had to find an isolated spot to do this and wouldn't have done this in broad daylight for fear of being spotted. Wouldn't this suggest thus happened much later? They would have needed time to look for an appropriate isolated place?

I feel so sad for this little girl and what she must have endured and what her family is going through.

They could have taken a drive down a wooded country road, like the area now being searched.

[n/t]

In one of the news articles, it states that TLM stepped away from the car while RM assaulted Tori. They would have had to find an isolated spot to do this and wouldn't have done this in broad daylight for fear of being spotted. Wouldn't this suggest thus happened much later? They would have needed time to look for an appropriate isolated place?


I feel so sad for this little girl and what she must have endured and what her family is going through.

Maybe they drove to where they're searching for her now and assaulted and murdered her there.:sad:

[Hope4Tori]

They're probably buying her lunch too. :cursing:


Hey n/t - Yes - I noticed the fast food cup in the cruiser where she was caught by the camera lying down! Actually when I heard she was in the helicopter I thought that may have just been a faster mode of transport to the location - IDK.

If TLM, is really disturbed, she may have a motive to falsely confess to such a heinous crime if she has fantasies of becoming notorious and she preferred the "safety and comfort" of jail life as opposed to her nomadic life of "freedom" which sounds just as bad from accounts I have so far read, JMO. Ludicrous? Perhaps so, but I am suspicious about everything today - sorry!:unsure:

May Tori be found and reunited with her family today!:wub:

[koawally]

Tori Stafford's mom to speak out Friday.

Video on the right.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/

From the above link:http://toronto.ctv.ca/

right side link: Tori Stafford's mother to speak out Friday

My goodness did you see the above video of the accused's Mother sitting on the veranda...She's as high as a kite...Oh my, it's obvious she has a very serious problem with drugs. The LE escorted her off the property at the request of the owners.

Hmm, I thought Carol and her daughter were renting the property. Under the landlord tenant act...they can't throw her out of her home that easily. However she appears to stoned to do anything else but leave. It's strange the police would escort her away from her home. She does have a right to be at the home she pays rent in.

Praying they find lil Tori today:wub:

[Orleaner12]

I understand how you are all thinking and feeling about our finest but I am not at the stage yet to discredit the police for what they did and didn't do...we have no idea what transpired during those 42 days...I will admit that maybe the local police stumbled somewhat but I would think that their investigation was the same whether they called it an abduction or a missing child...think about how many children turn up after a few hours after been "missing"...there is a process of elimination and I am sure they went through this...in any crime when a child goes "missing" the ones closest to her are usually the first suspects and must be eliminated...if their record is whistle clean the police move on...in this case it wasn't whistle clean so I can understand why they kept on it...we only have the word of Tara that she gave them that name and she may have when they questioned her about her friends etc. also they knew about her addiction and the record of her mate so that must have raised flags...about the limo...well we will never know that for certain but I am sure that Tara did tell the truth about that ride but it was most certainly a "police sting"...

Right now the police are trying to find little Tori's body or what remains of it...where they are searching must seem to them like a needle in a haystack and they may never recover it...I would not expect them to find it in a couple of days...a few weeks back a Prof in Ga. murdered three people and it took the police and the FBI almost three weeks to find the Prof. body in a wooded area...and without dogs they would never have found it in the end....so I will give our OPP some credit until I know differently... finding Tori should be main concern.....

I hope Tara today will only thank the people for searching and not use this as an opportunity to blast the police etc. It would gain her respect and sympathy that she badly needs at this time....

JUST MY OPINION.......

[Hope4Tori]

CP24 update - Tara pc will be at 3:00 today . . .

Canada's Prime Minister, Stephen Harper just made a statement on the case. . . as a father of young daughter(s?) (I missed that), he said it just breaks your heart and offered his condolences to the families of Tori . . .

I hope that type of respectful message from the highest level of our government moves others to offer their support to Tori's family.

Hoping Tori will be found today and reunited with her family!:wub:

[VC2]

With all the questions about how LE handled this case, I just want to point out that if JLM is telling the truth, there is a good chance that Tori had already been killed by the time she was reported missing to LE, around 6pm. I hope LE eventually outlines what it did, or did not do during the search for Tori. IMO

Yep. And stats show they are often killed in the first 3 hours.

Now i doubt they would have found her that fast, but considering they had been given the name of the woman who abducted her, had a video AND had her in jail shortly afterwards, if this had been a john couey or a slave case (the guys who kept girls for weeks or months)and not killed immediately she could have been found a few weeks ago. At least the family would have the added pain of all the suspicion and pointed fingers as they tried to deal with their grief.

I can't remember what day the sketch came out, but if you ignore the hair it was an amazing resemblance. Right down to the funny tip of her nose, the cheekbones etc. I would never have recognized her but a little boy did even tho he thought she was a man bc of the scraped back hair. Surely COPS should have since they had her in the freaking jail and her name? If someone came up to you and said "xyz said they recognize the woman in the video and the sketch as TLM, here is the sketch and her picture...you would have been very curious and seen the resemblance. Certainly enough to go talk to her in the cell! Since she broke immediately after the "gait walk" why wouldn't she have weeks ago. And why did it take so long to do a gait walk with her and yes Tara and others.

jmo.

[n/t]

Lots of media there today.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/2009/05/22/9535591-sun.html

[Lovethechild]

In one of the news articles, it states that TLM stepped away from the car while RM assaulted Tori.



I think I'm gonna be sick. barf

[Gugug]

Today's CTV Newsnet interview with criminal profiler Pat Brown of the U.S. was interesting.

[n/t]

Today's CTV Newsnet interview with criminal profiler Pat Brown of the U.S. was interesting.

Darn. I love Pat Brown. I hope they have it on video soon.

[n/t]

Why are the microphones placed so far away from the front of the home? Across the street? :confused:

[n/t]

I won't be able to hear a thing but someone can give a recap, it would be greatly appreciated!! TIA!

[VC2]

And that brings us back to the composite sketch. Tara claimed to have no idea who it was. And yet, she says now that she told the police she suspected TLM. So, what is it? She didn't know her, so didn't have a clue that she resembled the sketch? Or she did know her, which is why she gave her name to the police?

I have said before, and firmly believe, that for Tara to have said she had an inkling of who it was publicly..even on background to a reporter would have been insane.

Her public denials of recognizing her at all were the only thing to do if she hoped Tori was alive and would be kept alive until found.

IF you had her and she was not dead yet, what would your first reaction be when the mom says she thinks she recognizes you? Mine would be to immediately murder her and get rid of all evidence.

IMO

[VC2]

Yes, they do, including the suspect herself. And there is the possibility of memory being impaired by certain things.

true but where you dumped a murdered childs body is one of those things that generally will get through even the most drug clouded mind unless you do it every day i would think.

[Hope4Tori]

I understand how you are all thinking and feeling about our finest but I am not at the stage yet to discredit the police for what they did and didn't do...we have no idea what transpired during those 42 days...I will admit that maybe the local police stumbled somewhat but I would think that their investigation was the same whether they called it an abduction or a missing child...think about how many children turn up after a few hours after been "missing"...there is a process of elimination and I am sure they went through this...in any crime when a child goes "missing" the ones closest to her are usually the first suspects and must be eliminated...if their record is whistle clean the police move on...in this case it wasn't whistle clean so I can understand why they kept on it...we only have the word of Tara that she gave them that name and she may have when they questioned her about her friends etc. also they knew about her addiction and the record of her mate so that must have raised flags...about the limo...well we will never know that for certain but I am sure that Tara did tell the truth about that ride but it was most certainly a "police sting"...

Right now the police are trying to find little Tori's body or what remains of it...where they are searching must seem to them like a needle in a haystack and they may never recover it...I would not expect them to find it in a couple of days...a few weeks back a Prof in Ga. murdered three people and it took the police and the FBI almost three weeks to find the Prof. body in a wooded area...and without dogs they would never have found it in the end....so I will give our OPP some credit until I know differently... finding Tori should be main concern.....

I hope Tara today will only thank the people for searching and not use this as an opportunity to blast the police etc. It would gain her respect and sympathy that she badly needs at this time....

JUST MY OPINION.......

Hey Orleaner! :smile:

If TM is telling the truth about she and JG both having identified TLM as a potential suspect, now is the time for police to confirm it, IMO, as it is the ethical thing to do, IMO. Why if they have the suspects already under arrest would they not want to at least give TM some sort of respite from all the continuing speculation about her and her credibility?

I am outraged to think a victim - yes a victim - the mother of a missing child - no matter what her suspicious behaviours -was subjected to not only the relentless and cruel speculation by the public, including my own, but by the very people we are taught are there to "serve and protect" us all - the very people we are supposed to turn to in times of trouble and that we are expected to trust to be on the side of right - the very people I have always told my children and grandchildren they should trust and respect.

I agree with you that it is up to us all as citizens to live a whistle clean life to the very best of our ability and according to the highest standard possible - but people are human and they have failings - they are in moments weak and make poor judgements - so God help us all if ever we need to rely on LE to help us find our missing child, because from what I have heard TM say, LE spent most of their valuable investigating her and her associates for things that were most probably already on the record - as from my vantage point she did not hold back much as far as giving anyone ammunition to hurt her - she stood for the past 6 weeks like a public target and I feel that LE took advantage of that and used every resource to assist in her public execution, IMO.

If that were my child missing that day - I would have handled it differenty I imagine - but I also imagine that I would have taken LE to task from day one if I felt they were looking at me as a suspect and wasting time looking at me because as VC2 said, TM KNEW she was innocent, and that wasted time should have been used to find Tori and those whom had lured her away, IMO.

TM should feel angry and I know she must feel angry and for that I in know way lose any respect for her in her time of loss!

Knowing what I think I now know, if I had been TM, I would have lawyered up on day one!

Blessings for Tori and all of her family!:wub:

[n/t]

Brother John is there. Who's the older man? Is that her stepdad?

[iveyguy]

Nuggets from the PC so far:

- TM said that TLM knew who Tori was from "walking her dog" -- not sure if "her" is TLM or Tori, but TLM knew who Tori was.

- TM later said (re: motive) that TLM confessed that she didn't know it was Tori until after.

- TM said that TLM confessed because she learned the MR had a new girlfriend!

- TM obviously suspected TLM. She said the JG went over there (or sent people over there) on numerous occassions over the last six weeks to talk to the mother! (Hmmmmmm?)

- TM said that she has heard that TLM had been hanging around the school before April 8th, and was obviously planning this. Also thinks the charges should be upgraded to murder

[iveyguy]

TM: "We thought it might be her, so JG went over there and said that she had cut her hair and dyed her coat, so we suspected her. She was arrested on April 12th and we thought they must have cleared her."

[Gugug]

true but where you dumped a murdered childs body is one of those things that generally will get through even the most drug clouded mind unless you do it every day i would think.

One of those things might be getting the Crown to agree to the terms of a plea deal, as laid out by one's new lawyer. Perhaps the details are being hammered out as we speak, and memory will be restored when the lawyer gives the okay.

[VC2]

ok i just started bawling when she talked about wanting people to remember Tori and that she was the best and most beautiful little girl ever.

i also think she is handling these questions very well considering everything

[Gugug]

Nuggets from the PC so far:

- TM said that TLM knew who Tori was from "walking her dog" -- not sure if "her" is TLM or Tori, but TLM knew who Tori was.

- TM later said (re: motive) that TLM confessed that she didn't know it was Tori until after.

- TM said that TLM confessed because she learned the MR had a new girlfriend!

- TM obviously suspected TLM. She said the JG went over there (or sent people over there) on numerous occassions over the last six weeks to talk to the mother! (Hmmmmmm?)

- TM said that she has heard that TLM had been hanging around the school before April 8th, and was obviously planning this. Also thinks the charges should be upgraded to murder

Let's count. Tara said she had never met TLM in an earlier interview. Then she said she met TLM once when she was talking to Carol McClintic. And today at the PC, she said she met TLM twice.

[n/t]

Thank you iveyguy. I don't know how she does it. I'd be a basket case.:crying:

Justice for Tori :rose:

[VC2]

I think we saw an example of that with the missing women case in Vancouver. Investigators had to hand-sift through dirt and fragments on the pig farm of Willy Pickton. They spent months there, with the area fenced off, conveyor belts going. Archaeology students were hired for their ability to spot bone and teeth fragments. A gruesome job, but enough evidence was found for a conviction.

the two hour criminal minds last night was based on that case. I chilled me because i knew it was from a true murder (well many murders ) with the bodies fed to pigs.

[n/t]

ok i just started bawling when she talked about wanting people to remember Tori and that she was the best and most beautiful little girl ever.

i also think she is handling these questions very well considering everything

:crying:
.
.
.
.

[lizzard]

Let's count. Tara said she had never met TLM in an earlier interview. Then she said she met TLM once when she was talking to Carol McClintic. And today at the PC, she said she met TLM twice.

Gugug, I'm going back to check. I think I've read three times.
jmo

[VC2]

Thank you iveyguy. I don't know how she does it. I'd be a basket case.:crying:

Justice for Tori :rose:

she was. She managed to not cry through most of it but finally lost it, and even when she didn't it was obvious she was holding tears back.

imo

[n/t]

Does it really matter? Seriously. Whether she met her once, twice, three times? Her baby girl is dead.

Am I missing something?

[n/t]

she was. She managed to not cry through most of it but finally lost it, and even when she didn't it was obvious she was holding tears back.

imo

I'm not judging her. I'm just saying how I'd be. I noticed Uncle John wiping away tears. I don't have sound but I'm sure I'd be bawling. Maybe it's a good thing I don't have sound at work. I'd be a mess.

[Jester]

ok i just started bawling when she talked about wanting people to remember Tori and that she was the best and most beautiful little girl ever.

i also think she is handling these questions very well considering everything

She did very well ... and she's a very strong woman. I didn't see earlier comments from her, but she gives a very normal impression of a mother that is really sad about what happened to her daughter.

She said that she knew Carol, Terry Lynne's mother, through possible dog breeding, but that she didn't know Terry Lynne. Apparently Terry Lynne was hanging around the school with a dog in the black bag she had over her shoulder - specifically to lure a child away. It's rumored that because Rafferty has a new girlfriend, she may have decided to give the information. We also know that she was questioned because her gait matched the video.

[iveyguy]

i also think she is handling these questions very well considering everything

I thought she was very sincere today, both in thanking the media for their support (twice) and in talking about Tori and the crime. But I did notice that she really didn't want to talk about a motive...

I'm don't believe that this was a random act. TLM may have confessed it as such, but Tara also just stated that TLM knew who Tori was from walking her dog!

I think the "random act" confession by TLM is her hope of "unlinking" herself to the motive of the case (revenge) and placing it solely on MR (random abduction).

Like many others, I just cannot believe what TLM says without challenging it. She's one very troubled girl, with a reported history of two previous stays in detention centres for violence and aggression.

I believe they'll upgrade the charges against her after the body is found. Essentially, she's admitted to the abduction and to witnessing the crime (or walking away from it, whatever...) and to assisting after the fact. She's got to get a life sentence... we'll have to take our chances that she won't make parole for a LONG time.

[Jester]

Let's count. Tara said she had never met TLM in an earlier interview. Then she said she met TLM once when she was talking to Carol McClintic. And today at the PC, she said she met TLM twice.

I think she said that she may have met TLM when she was at Carol's house discussing dog breeding.

[n/t]

I thought she was very sincere today, both in thanking the media for their support (twice) and in talking about Tori and the crime. But I did notice that she really didn't want to talk about a motive...

I'm don't believe that this was a random act. TLM may have confessed it as such, but Tara also just stated that TLM knew who Tori was from walking her dog!

I think the "random act" confession by TLM is her hope of "unlinking" herself to the motive of the case (revenge) and placing it solely on MR (random abduction).

Like many others, I just cannot believe what TLM says without challenging it. She's one very troubled girl, with a reported history of two previous stays in detention centres for violence and aggression.

I believe they'll upgrade the charges against her after the body is found. Essentially, she's admitted to the abduction and to witnessing the crime (or walking away from it, whatever...) and to assisting after the fact. She's got to get a life sentence... we'll have to take our chances that she won't make parole for a LONG time.

Revenge against who?

[Jester]

I thought she was very sincere today, both in thanking the media for their support (twice) and in talking about Tori and the crime. But I did notice that she really didn't want to talk about a motive...

I'm don't believe that this was a random act. TLM may have confessed it as such, but Tara also just stated that TLM knew who Tori was from walking her dog!

I think the "random act" confession by TLM is her hope of "unlinking" herself to the motive of the case (revenge) and placing it solely on MR (random abduction).

Like many others, I just cannot believe what TLM says without challenging it. She's one very troubled girl, with a reported history of two previous stays in detention centres for violence and aggression.

I believe they'll upgrade the charges against her after the body is found. Essentially, she's admitted to the abduction and to witnessing the crime (or walking away from it, whatever...) and to assisting after the fact. She's got to get a life sentence... we'll have to take our chances that she won't make parole for a LONG time.

If she thinks about motive, she has to think about the last hour of her daughter's life ... and that would be unbearable.

[justmy2cents]

I hope they find Tori's remains today, she belongs at home. I also believe this is the true Tara MacDonald the one we saw today was amazingly strong, intelligent and truely a hurt mom.

Again i hope and pray that Daryn gets the councelling he so needs. Even my son who is 15 said to me "omg mom it must be just killing him, over and over again he must be thinking if only i was with her, why didn't i walk with her".

The whole situation is terribly disturbing, we see these types of things on news all the time, the one comforting thought was , not here this is canada, we don't have these kinds of crimes here. Yes there have been terrible horrendous crimes committed here against children, but not as often as in the states and other parts of the world.

My purple ribbons are up around the trees on my property and have been for a few weeks now. As i stated previously this family will never be the same people they were, never ever.

This is all just my personal opinion but my prayers are with this family.:crying:

[VC2]

I think she said that she may have met TLM when she was at Carol's house discussing dog breeding.

she did and also said it was two or 3 times. Apparently the people who saw JG over there numerous times was after tori's abduction when he went over a few times to see if there was anything that showed tori was there.

Her description of TLM's mother was right on to. "vulgar"

damn and sounds like TLM had the young dog in that sling thing around her shown in the video :cursing: Tara said Tori would have been all over the puppy if that was the case and gone willingly.

i am so darned mad!!! not only did Tara and JG give the name to cops, but the neighbors as well and they did NOTHING about it.

imo

[Gugug]

I thought she was very sincere today, both in thanking the media for their support (twice) and in talking about Tori and the crime. But I did notice that she really didn't want to talk about a motive...

I'm don't believe that this was a random act. TLM may have confessed it as such, but Tara also just stated that TLM knew who Tori was from walking her dog!

I think the "random act" confession by TLM is her hope of "unlinking" herself to the motive of the case (revenge) and placing it solely on MR (random abduction).

Like many others, I just cannot believe what TLM says without challenging it. She's one very troubled girl, with a reported history of two previous stays in detention centres for violence and aggression.

I believe they'll upgrade the charges against her after the body is found. Essentially, she's admitted to the abduction and to witnessing the crime (or walking away from it, whatever...) and to assisting after the fact. She's got to get a life sentence... we'll have to take our chances that she won't make parole for a LONG time.

Don't bet on it. The body may not be found until after the ink has dried on a plea deal.

[Gugug]

Does it really matter? Seriously. Whether she met her once, twice, three times? Her baby girl is dead.

Am I missing something?

The story changed three times. To some people, yes, that could be important information. Whether she did or did not know the accused is important to investigators, you can be sure.

[Orleaner12]

The story changed three times. To some people, yes, that could be important information. Whether she did or did not know the accused is important to investigators, you can be sure.


I agree...also she said at the start that James went over there only on Tues. and then half way through she said Janes had gone over there for the past six weeks.....so which is it... think this is to cover up for maybe the real reason James was over there....I wonder if this Michael was the dealer and operated out of that house...he had to be receiving money somewhere for his lifestyle... I am still not buying into this...I don't think TLM's Mother would make a very credible witness and somehow I am having problems with the daughter knowing anything of where the body could be. She was not familar with the area where they are searching and if it was done after dark how the hell would she be able to remember any landmarks...I've driven around the area of Stratford etc. and I sure as hell would not be able to remember just what is what ....all farmers fields look alike to me....

[VC2]

I hope they find Tori's remains today, she belongs at home. I also believe this is the true Tara MacDonald the one we saw today was amazingly strong, intelligent and truely a hurt mom.

Again i hope and pray that Daryn gets the councelling he so needs. Even my son who is 15 said to me "omg mom it must be just killing him, over and over again he must be thinking if only i was with her, why didn't i walk with her".

The whole situation is terribly disturbing, we see these types of things on news all the time, the one comforting thought was , not here this is canada, we don't have these kinds of crimes here. Yes there have been terrible horrendous crimes committed here against children, but not as often as in the states and other parts of the world.

My purple ribbons are up around the trees on my property and have been for a few weeks now. As i stated previously this family will never be the same people they were, never ever.

This is all just my personal opinion but my prayers are with this family.:crying:

Thank goodness counselling is free here, so no fund needs to be set up to help with it.

We have so few of these cases, even in big cities the size of chicago that it takes the whole country in its grip. (i have always said we have very few child murders or serial killers even percentage wise but when we do they are true doozies. Picton pig farmer, clifford olsen, bernardo and now this.

Prime Minister Harper made a statement today:

As Ontario Provincial Police search crews descended for the third day on the small southern Ontario township of Fergus, to look for the remains of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford, Prime Minister Stephen Harper expressed his condolences to the murdered girl's family.

"Particularly as a father of a young daughter, it just breaks your heart to see this kind of stuff," he said Friday in Calgary. "And I know that Canadians everywhere, that that family, the Stafford family is in their thoughts and prayers. . . . It's just a terrible thing. Of course, those of us who are of faith know that Tori's in a better place."
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/girl+death+terrible+thing+Harper/1620204/story.html

event tho i disagree on a better place, she should be with her mom and her brother and playing tea parties and bug hunting with her best friend :(

The better place is meant to happen years later.

[Orleaner12]

Thank goodness counselling is free here, so no fund needs to be set up to help with it.

We have so few of these cases, even in big cities the size of chicago that it takes the whole country in its grip. (i have always said we have very few child murders or serial killers even percentage wise but when we do they are true doozies. Picton pig farmer, clifford olsen, bernardo and now this.

Prime Minister Harper made a statement today:


http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/girl+death+terrible+thing+Harper/1620204/story.html

event tho i disagree on a better place, she should be with her mom and her brother and playing tea parties and bug hunting with her best friend :(

The better place is meant to happen years later.


your last two sentences I have to agree with......

[VC2]

The story changed three times. To some people, yes, that could be important information. Whether she did or did not know the accused is important to investigators, you can be sure.

you cant count what she said before the arrests, it would have been the height of stupidity to suggest she thought it was her.

Secondly, if you only met someone casually 2 three or four times, had just discovered your baby girl was raped and murdered after 6 weeks of hell and hope, would YOU always be accurate when answering media questions on how many times you met her? Would you even care if you said 2 or 3 or 1 or 5? cant even imagine bothering to correct it if it was me. It seems you think Tara should be able to not only remember every time perfectly but also express it in the middle of the worst hell on earth any parent goes through while still not knowing where her baby's body is rotting after being thrown away like trash. :cursing: Personally i am amazed she only said 1 2 or 3. thats more than i could have thought about

I am sure LE knows every time they met, it would have been discussed when she gave them the information.

Also, to the person who said "tuesday" then many times, TUESDAY had to do with the day they were arrested, the many times had to do with the last 6 weeks!

I am amazed at the hate for Tara here, the lack of empathy or caring for a mom who was not involved in the abduction, rape and murder of her 8 year old daughter, just because she didn't act the way people wanted or live their life perfectly.

From all stories i have read, Tori was a happy little girl. Happy little girls are normally happy because they are loved and nurtured at home. She and Rodney dealt with telling Daryn perfectly, just like they should have and are making sure he is aware he can open up to them any time or take out his frustrations like he did on the metal mop stick.

It just stuns me that there are more attacks on the mother than on the very people who abducted, raped and killed little Tori

ALL IMO.

eta and i doubt Tara is the only one who has mentioned a specific day something happened like "he/she went over to xyz's place on tuesday" and then added "and has been over a number of times before" You think of the one time then add the rest.

IMO

[Shells2]

Don't bet on it. The body may not be found until after the ink has dried on a plea deal.



That's my fear as well. Another poster mirrored my thoughts when the Holmoka plea deal was signed, and it Karla's involvement was much more than originally thought, and yet the LE's hands were tied because of that darn plea deal...

That poor baby!

[VC2]

She did very well ... and she's a very strong woman. I didn't see earlier comments from her, but she gives a very normal impression of a mother that is really sad about what happened to her daughter.

She said that she knew Carol, Terry Lynne's mother, through possible dog breeding, but that she didn't know Terry Lynne. Apparently Terry Lynne was hanging around the school with a dog in the black bag she had over her shoulder - specifically to lure a child away. It's rumored that because Rafferty has a new girlfriend, she may have decided to give the information. We also know that she was questioned because her gait matched the video.

ITA. I saw her earlier pressers, never thought she was guilty, and i do think she is a very strong woman. I truly pray that she can get through this without spiraling back into drug use as a way to numb the pain. Sometimes people with issues show the most strength because its even harder for them to stay afloat when your life turns into the worst hell ever, they don't have the certainty they can get through it as much as someone without the issues to start with.

Her demeanor, her answers today were perfect, she did a great job. I was so afraid for her, thinking that she might just lash out, understandably so imo.

IMO

[iveyguy]

Revenge against who?

Obviously "revenge" is one of many possible motives.

Against who? I'm not sure. Perhaps TM because she refused to breed the dog? Or "dissed" her in some way?

The X factor here for me is JG. We just learned that he and/or his friends paid several visits to Carol's house over the past six weeks. They suspected TLM -- why? Was it just because she cut her hair and dyed her jacket, or was there a reason why JG went there in the first place?

Does this even matter? Not really. A precious life is lost and hopefully society is safer now with two sickos off the street. But if TM and JG have withheld certain information from the police in order to protect themselves, then I think this needs to be addressed. Perhaps this case COULD HAVE been solved in days, not weeks.

We really don't know the whole story and I suspect it will be a long time, if ever, before we do. But MR will talk at some point and we'll here his version of what happened. Perhaps he's a just a sick &%$# and this was entirely random, or perhaps it wasn't "random" but just "convenient" because of the mutual dog connection.

I guess the real question I'm struggling with is WHY did TLM initiate this (which she has essentially admitted to doing at this point)? Pure evil? To impress MR? For Drugs? Or did the 18-year old with a juvie record for violence and aggression lash at someone for some reason? I'm leaning towards the last reason.

[Orleaner12]

TLM seems to be the heavy no matter which crime site one reads...not much is said about the other perp...I noticed even that today in the PC...today Tara mentioned that Carol had her furniture in storage with a storage company that a relative of Tara's either owns or works for and that she (Tara) offered to send her moving truck over with Carol's furniture.....for someone who only knew another so little it seemed a strange idea... IMO......:wink:

[Hope4Tori]

Hey VC2 - and Orleaner - Gugog!

I don't at all agree with you VC2 that anyone here on this board hates TM - even those whom have consistently and passionately argued that they suspect her to be involved in some way - or have not yet been convinced that she is not! No one here is expressing hatred to anyone, IMO. Tori's case stirs a passionate response by many of us and everyone here is doing their best to express their honest opinions while maintaining respect for those opnions of others. These posters like Gugug IMO are genuinely trying to discover the truth and their opinions are based upon their own observation - and as things are revealed sometimes opinions are altered.

Orleaner, when TM said the comment about JG having gone over to Carol's house/area on Tuesday, I will have to listen to be 100% - but I took it to mean she was adding emphasis as in as recently as Tuesday, which just so happened to be the same day that they heard the terrible news about Tori - but I may have got the wrong impression.

As for me, I am more confused today than ever - my feelings are all over the place . . . My suspcicions cannot seem to land in one solid direction and stay there - with all certainty - doubts - inappropriate or not I have them again . . .
For instance . . .

Anyone please correct me if I didn't hear right - but this is what I thought I heard TM say at the p/c today:

TM said (paraphrasing here): They (TM/JG) had met her (Carol and/or TLM) on two or three occasions. They (TM/JG) offered furniture to (Carol and/or TLM) because (TM/JG) noticed that (Carol and/or TLM)didn’t have any. (Carol and/or TLM) said they had some in storage. They (TM/JG) offered to move (Carol and/or TLM) things that had been in storage – the same place owned by the father? or uncle? (one of the two – can’t remember) of one of TM’s friends, and (TM/JG) had offered to help them (Carol and/or TLM) move their stuff by using their (TM/JG) truck (rental?) at the same time (TM/JG) moved into their new house – which IIRC was just 5 or 6 days before Tori went missing. That’s an unusual offer IMO – especially since TM commented today that Carol, TLM’s mom is vulgar – and TM said something of that same nature in an article (already posted here yesterday) where TM said she knew when she first met Carol that she was strange and not the kind of person she would want to breed dogs with and as others have here stated before, that is suspicious as to her reasons to return on any occasion. And then I remember the comment about "mildly vindictive" and I don't like where my mind is going . . .but I am honest and I have to admit it's going in all kinds of directions which I cannot explain in the moment . . .

I apologize to everyone here – IMO – I am so confused about this case – I need to get a clear head and a perspective and feel justified for sticking to it – I just keep vacillating from one viewpoint to another – I want to be able to make sense some sense in it all, but I just cannot.

After today’s p/c, I am again unsure what to think.

n/t I don’t know if it was already posted but CP24 just reported something about “Tori’s Law” and a petition to change the criterion for Amber Alerts.:thumbsup:

God bless little innocent Tori – may she be found and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:

[Hope4Tori]

TLM seems to be the heavy no matter which crime site one reads...not much is said about the other perp...I noticed even that today in the PC...today Tara mentioned that Carol had her furniture in storage with a storage company that a relative of Tara's either owns or works for and that she (Tara) offered to send her moving truck over with Carol's furniture.....for someone who only knew another so little it seemed a strange idea... IMO......:wink:

OMG - Orleaner - we were on the same page at the same moment - who would've ever predicted that? :biggrin:

May Tori be found and reunited with her loved ones today!:wub:

[lizzard]

you cant count what she said before the arrests, it would have been the height of stupidity to suggest she thought it was her.

Secondly, if you only met someone casually 2 three or four times, had just discovered your baby girl was raped and murdered after 6 weeks of hell and hope, would YOU always be accurate when answering media questions on how many times you met her? Would you even care if you said 2 or 3 or 1 or 5? cant even imagine bothering to correct it if it was me. It seems you think Tara should be able to not only remember every time perfectly but also express it in the middle of the worst hell on earth any parent goes through while still not knowing where her baby's body is rotting after being thrown away like trash. :cursing: Personally i am amazed she only said 1 2 or 3. thats more than i could have thought about

I am sure LE knows every time they met, it would have been discussed when she gave them the information.

Also, to the person who said "tuesday" then many times, TUESDAY had to do with the day they were arrested, the many times had to do with the last 6 weeks!

I am amazed at the hate for Tara here, the lack of empathy or caring for a mom who was not involved in the abduction, rape and murder of her 8 year old daughter, just because she didn't act the way people wanted or live their life perfectly.

From all stories i have read, Tori was a happy little girl. Happy little girls are normally happy because they are loved and nurtured at home. She and Rodney dealt with telling Daryn perfectly, just like they should have and are making sure he is aware he can open up to them any time or take out his frustrations like he did on the metal mop stick.

It just stuns me that there are more attacks on the mother than on the very people who abducted, raped and killed little Tori

ALL IMO.

eta and i doubt Tara is the only one who has mentioned a specific day something happened like "he/she went over to xyz's place on tuesday" and then added "and has been over a number of times before" You think of the one time then add the rest.

IMO

VC2, I have never seen "hate" expressed here. There are some of us who feel we don't have all the facts. That in no way takes away our disgust and shock over what may have happened to Tori. Nor does it preclude us from feeling the utmost sympathy for Rodney, Daryn, and YES, Tara too. No-one should have to go through the heartbreak they are now suffering. This is a tragedy, no-one doubts that.

[Orleaner12]

Hey VC2 - and Orleaner - Gugog!

I don't at all agree with you VC2 that anyone here on this board hates TM - even those whom have consistently and passionately argued that they suspect her to be involved in some way - or have not yet been convinced that she is not! No one here is expressing hatred to anyone, IMO. Tori's case stirs a passionate response by many of us and everyone here is doing their best to express their honest opinions while maintaining respect for those opnions of others. These posters like Gugug IMO are genuinely trying to discover the truth and their opinions are based upon their own observation - and as things are revealed sometimes opinions are altered.

Orleaner, when TM said the comment about JG having gone over to Carol's house/area on Tuesday, I will have to listen to be 100% - but I took it to mean she was adding emphasis as in as recently as Tuesday, which just so happened to be the same day that they heard the terrible news about Tori - but I may have got the wrong impression.

As for me, I am more confused today than ever - my feelings are all over the place . . . My suspcicions cannot seem to land in one solid direction and stay there - with all certainty - doubts - inappropriate or not I have them again . . .
For instance . . .

Anyone please correct me if I didn't hear right - but this is what I thought I heard TM say at the p/c today:

TM said (paraphrasing here): They (TM/JG) had met her (Carol and/or TLM) on two or three occasions. They (TM/JG) offered furniture to (Carol and/or TLM) because (TM/JG) noticed that (Carol and/or TLM)didn’t have any. (Carol and/or TLM) said they had some in storage. They (TM/JG) offered to move (Carol and/or TLM) things that had been in storage – the same place owned by the father? or uncle? (one of the two – can’t remember) of one of TM’s friends, and (TM/JG) had offered to help them (Carol and/or TLM) move their stuff by using their (TM/JG) truck (rental?) at the same time (TM/JG) moved into their new house – which IIRC was just 5 or 6 days before Tori went missing. That’s an unusual offer IMO – especially since TM commented today that Carol, TLM’s mom is vulgar – and TM said something of that same nature in an article (already posted here yesterday) where TM said she knew when she first met Carol that she was strange and not the kind of person she would want to breed dogs with and as others have here stated before, that is suspicious as to her reasons to return on any occasion. And then I remember the comment about "mildly vindictive" and I don't like where my mind is going . . .but I am honest and I have to admit it's going in all kinds of directions which I cannot explain in the moment . . .

I apologize to everyone here – IMO – I am so confused about this case – I need to get a clear head and a perspective and feel justified for sticking to it – I just keep vacillating from one viewpoint to another – I want to be able to make sense some sense in it all, but I just cannot.

After today’s p/c, I am again unsure what to think.

n/t I don’t know if it was already posted but CP24 just reported something about “Tori’s Law” and a petition to change the criterion for Amber Alerts.:thumbsup:

God bless little innocent Tori – may she be found and reunited with her loved ones!:wub:


H4T you always have a way with words and always seem to "put things right":smile:

first of all when I saw the condition of that place I would have high tailed it out of there in record speed...I don't think if the plan was to breed my dog I would have bothered to visit again and again and again (three times??) as we are led to believe from Tara...then after meeting that woman, well I think I would strip off before I even entered my house to rid myself of anything I might have picked up.... in today's PC I also caught ( and I could easily be mistaken here) that Tara said" she, as in Tori may have met Terrilynn when she was here once!!! I will need to verify that if the PC is on site later.....I think it is important to establish a connection to Tori with TLM...and I am sure it is very important for the police also. Another thing,,if TLM was already in custody on Tuesday evening, why was Michael at her mother's.....especially when the mother has stated that she did not like him and found him creepy..... was he the dealer and was operating out of that place...that row had three units....a neighbour said in an interview that two of those units were dealers and the police had been called there more than once...I believe he also said something about a standoff last year at that place.......