Don't Ask Don't Tell

[bugout]

Let's discuss the dont ask dont tell discrimination/harassment in the US military. It's only a matter of time before a suit is brought forth that will require the US own Military to stop engaging in discrimination based on sexual preference.

Let's start with Wiki. I know that many GLB issues are actually debated by most who are heterosexual, and in the end the majority will be voting on this will not be GLB.
In order for society to grow I firmly believe that people will have to overcome their homophobic fears.
It is amazing to me that after talking to several soldiers and marines, that the living quarters and close battle field arrangements including barracks are the real issue behind a lot of the "fear" of dont ask dont tell. (that really shocks me)
Now, it is absolutely ridiculous and a crime to think that just because someone next to you in the public shower may be a gay man or a lesbian or that because of this, they will not "have your back" on the battlefield.

This form of discrimination must end, our Own President is hoping to put an end to it. I really agree that everyone needs to stand up for their fellow mans rights regardless of how one ID's sexually. It is a very fear based "law" to even think that a countries own government would be afraid of how someone chooses to perform sex. I see several loop holes in the actual writing of don't ask don't tell and I'm surprised that no one has challenged it in federal court by now.

Regardless of how you ID in a religious manner, can you explain to me why anyone would feel fear, based on sexual preference of another, and how that would affect you on the battlefield or while on duty serving your country? In every workplace except for our own military it is illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

Would you vote to continue allowing the government in your bedroom, or would you vote, to allow all people to be equal and hired based on actual qualifications, not how they perform in the bedroom?
As a heterosexual woman, I personally vote for
Nixing the
Don't ask Dont Tell "policy" immediately. What is your vote?

Let's say you were at your HQ and a bomb hit you. Would you really not take the hand offered to bail you out of the rubble if you suspected that the person, engaged somehow differently than you do in the bedroom? How archaic is that anyway :(

I think this is an important issue a current affair that is really important. It was shocking to me recently in the Transgendered case that some of us followed on TTV, and how so many refused to even refer to Angie as She. Her family never let her memory down that was certain. The defense, and their daily slams against the victim was really hard to take. I think that so many do not understand this issue, and the law behind dont ask dont tell. Can we do anything to end the fear that people have or can we do anything to end homophobic behavior in the US?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell
The two latest cases in the news:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-belkin/obama-to-fire-his-first-g_b_199070.html

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/08/obama-dont-ask-dont-tell/

[doctor_J]

I don't think the issue is presented just as you described, bugout. I don't believe the issue has to do with not trusting a gay person to "have your back" on the battlefield. It has to do with close quarters, public showers, nudity around same sex that is attracted to you. If I were a young woman in the military, I would not want to shower with men or with homosexual women. I wouldn't fear them, I'd just be very uncomfortable. It has been claimed that this is bad for morale. I'd like to know what the soldiers, sailers and marines have to say on the subject. A few have told me they are happy not knowing. I think the ones serving should have a say in this issue.They have enough misery and discomfort in times of war. If they're OK with open homosexuality and it does not destroy morale, I see no reason not to get rid of an outdated policy.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Why is sexual preference even relevant? It should be dont ask/dont tell for homosexuals as well as heterosexuals as a rule. I do not need, or want to know yours or anyone elses sexual orientation, or preference. Why would anyone want to know mine? Why does this have to be an issue to begin with except that people want it to be?It is relevant because it is not easy to hide one's sexuality for long periods, and doing so would cause stress. jmo

[Tracian]

Sometimes it's not homophobic behavior, it's a belief or being misinformed.
People have reasons for their beliefs on various levels.
Personally, I am 100% in favor of gay rights in the military, as adoptive parents, as teachers, etc. But I don't advocate same sex marriage.


I agree with most of your post, except that I believe that equality is just that, equality, and do support the right for everyone to marry whom they love.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.365gay.com/news/pentagon-no-plan-to-end-dadt/

(Washington) The Pentagon says it has no plans to repeal the don’t ask, don’t tell policy for gay troops.

Now, that the 100 days are over things seem to be sliding backwards. :blushing:

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid84716.asp

The Wall Street Journal reports that administration officials will continue to defend "don't ask, don't tell" when the trial begins in the lower court. It's not clear whether administration officials will heed the federal appeals court decision and argue that Witt is a specific threat to the Air Force because she's gay.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/19/MNBO17NEVG.DTL&feed=rss.gay

"This decision makes it significantly easier to strike down at least the application of 'don't ask, don't tell' in many if not most cases," gay rights attorney Jon Davidson, legal director of Lambda Legal, said today. Davidson filed arguments supporting the Air Force officer in the case.

[LisaM22]

Sometimes it's not homophobic behavior, it's a belief or being misinformed.
People have reasons for their beliefs on various levels.
Personally, I am 100% in favor of gay rights in the military, as adoptive parents, as teachers, etc. But I don't advocate same sex marriage.

do you advocate against same sex marriage?

[airportwoman]

I had a friend in high school whose father was a WW II Navy veteran, and he said there were gay men in his platoon. Everyone knew who they were and nobody cared as long as they did their work.

Someone I told this to said, "Yeah, they assumed they were gay because they were skinny and had high pitched voices." I replied, "No, everyone knew they were gay because they were going out with each other."

[LisaM22]

Is it homophobic fear not rallying for legitimizing immorality? Why is it so important for homosexuals to wear a sign stating their sexual preference, will troops then get an insignia that will identify whether they are gay or straight?

why is it so important to anyone to marry? why would you want to take away the rights of your fellow Americans, rights that you yourself enjoy, to me that is just unAmerican

[LisaM22]

So, you can afford the protection they provide, serving their Country, but don't support equal rights such as marriage?? Seems a very self-centered position to me....:sad:

amazing isn't it, they are fighting for our freedoms, yet some wish to deny them theirs

[Lady_Jean_La]

Sadly, in my view, it will probably be a handful of people in the courts which put an end to DADT before the executive and legislative branchs take action. jmo

[Lyndawitha"Y]

Goodness, I have never understood the 'Dont Ask Dont Tell"..term..Surely, when anyone, whether men or women apply or enlist, they have a physical, and a mental evaluation..I dont care what their sexual orientation is, nor their preferences..IF they are deemed mentally and physically capable..Who cares?..Dont you wish for a balanced human being to fight for their country?..

It seems, some are just stuck on judging a person by pre-conceived idea's..without understanding people's differences..These differences are inconsequential when it comes to service to the nation...but some seem to believe a bisexual, gay person is unable or not worthy to fight for a nation..I find that counter-intuitive??IMO

LMS:ohmy:

[Lady_Jean_La]

Too bad Congress doesn't have the courage to get rid of this relic. It was silly when it came to be but over the years it has become laughable. jmo

[LisaM22]

We all enjoy the same rights, when it comes to marriage you're now talking about privilege, not rights and the rules apply equally to all.
Some want to change that definition not to be inclusive of all who would like to marry, but to just cover one segment of abnormal unions, that would be unfair to those that are currently excluded from the proposed new definition.

really, I can marry a man, can every American marry a man? sounds like not every American can do the same thing to me, separate but equal will not work, it's no different then interracial marriage

[Barbara2]

This is wrong on every level. How long is it going to take to get rid of this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30988351/

[Barbara2]

And this one:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/266494_aclu13.html

[Details]

It is wrong - but I think it will hold on awhile yet.

We've got 2 wars, an economic collapse, gay marriage, culture wars attempting to disintegrate our country, Israel and the Palestinians attempting to destroy all hopes of peace between them and in the whole Middle East, nuclear weapons in countries we'd prefer not to have them, torture and Gitmo and terrorism - I know it's an important issue, but we're overloaded with important issues these days. They cannot all be resolved simultaneously.

[Barbara2]

It is wrong - but I think it will hold on awhile yet.

We've got 2 wars, an economic collapse, gay marriage, culture wars attempting to disintegrate our country, Israel and the Palestinians attempting to destroy all hopes of peace between them and in the whole Middle East, nuclear weapons in countries we'd prefer not to have them, torture and Gitmo and terrorism - I know it's an important issue, but we're overloaded with important issues these days. They cannot all be resolved simultaneously.

I agree it's not a front burner issue for the masses but it's so unfair for these individuals. They are doing their jobs in exemplary fashion and they are being kicked out (just short of retirement eligibility, coincidentally). Their rights are being denied and it needs to be fixed. It is SO wrong! IMO

[Details]

I agree it's not a front burner issue for the masses but it's so unfair for these individuals. They are doing their jobs in exemplary fashion and they are being kicked out (just short of retirement eligibility, coincidentally). Their rights are being denied and it needs to be fixed. It is SO wrong! IMOIt is - and I hate it - but there's so much to fix after the Bush years. And then there's universal healthcare - so people don't spend their dying days fighting insurance companies to cover their care, so people don't die for lack of basic preventative care - so many things that need fixing urgently.

[Susan43]

It is wrong - but I think it will hold on awhile yet.

We've got 2 wars, an economic collapse, gay marriage, culture wars attempting to disintegrate our country, Israel and the Palestinians attempting to destroy all hopes of peace between them and in the whole Middle East, nuclear weapons in countries we'd prefer not to have them, torture and Gitmo and terrorism - I know it's an important issue, but we're overloaded with important issues these days. They cannot all be resolved simultaneously.

This is the one issue that I'm the angriest about. Obama is the CIC and IMO he could put a moratorium on the discharges until the matter is settled.

[Lady_Jean_La]

This is the one issue that I'm the angriest about. Obama is the CIC and IMO he could put a moratorium on the discharges until the matter is settled.
He has already had the Justice Department not challenge decisions. jmo

[Lady_Jean_La]

This can be "fixed" in this Congressional session, with 57 or more Democratic people in the US Senate, (including many Republicans that would agree on this issue) a 60 vote Senate majority could come easily, and we could get this law changed once and for all. In the house, there would be NO PROBLEM at all.

I hope Obama wakes up soon on this, and it is about the ONLY thing I wish he had forced to the floor of House and Senate before now.

Or it could be found unconstitutional in the courts. jmo

[watcher2005]

Doesn't sound like he did any telling.

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-milazzo/lt-dan-choi-takes-dont-as_b_208884.html

Dear Mr. President,

The time has come to end discrimination in our armed forces. We the undersigned ask you to stop the discharge of Dan Choi and any other soldier as a result of Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. We ask that you uphold your pledge and push Congress to quickly put a bill on your desk to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

Sincerely, the undersigned 140,860 people.

[Barbara2]

Doesn't sound like he did any telling.

Nope. Somebody else told. It was the same thing with Witt.

[Lady_Jean_La]

Me too, I think this is my major problem with Obama so far. He can act tomorrow, but doesn't seem to be listening.Maybe he is getting much opposition that hasn't been leaked. jmo

[Barbara2]

Maybe there is so much about this issue that civilians just don't know. I have a distinct opinion......

The military brass has asked for time to make the adjustment. I get that to some degree. But the people right now who are being kicked out based on discrimination just short of eligible retirement is VERY wrong. They were good enough for 18+ years and suddenly their orientation is an issue?? They need to be retired with full benefits as if they reached 20 years or the military needs to not discharge them while they are trying to figure it out. MO

[Barbara2]

Produce some facts associated with your charge.

What charge are you referring to? That the brass have asked for more time or that officers are being discharged just short of 20 years?

[Barbara2]

The people being kicked out prior to retirement due to dadt.....

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,155640,00.html

Witt was banned from working or training with her unit. Her pay and points toward retirement -- which requires 20 years of service -- were halted. She said she was also ordered not to talk to anyone about what was happening.

(From 1987-2004....17 years)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g5DCFfRgXSHzw-W-WBaO8G0_bF_wD98FF59G1

BOISE, Idaho (AP) — Barack Obama's campaign promise to scrap the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy gave Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach hope. Now the aviator is wondering if the president will deliver in time to save his 18-year Air Force career.

The winner of nine air medals for distinguished service in flight, including one for heroism the night U.S. forces captured Baghdad International Airport in 2003, Fehrenbach is in the process of getting kicked out of the military a year after an acquaintance told his bosses he was gay.

[Barbara2]

They Chose to deny a policy in place.

I don't think so. The policy says, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". In both cases, they didn't tell. Someone else decided to tell for them. They didn't suddenly become gay. They were the same orientation as the day they entered the service. Both were recognized for their exemplary service. To be denied their retirement is an abomination! It's wrong and needs to be fixed. IMO

[Lady_Jean_La]

If you are relying on your orig. post, He knew what he was getting into. He gets what he gets.

It is just such a waste.

[Lady_Jean_La]

What is a waste? Someone who decides they need to become an advocate before they retire? I applaud them, but they knew what they were risking.
I was thinking more of the education and training. jmo

[Lady_Jean_La]

Please tell me, of 'their' education and training:rolleyes:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blaftrainingoffcost.htm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos249.htm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos249.htm

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/78192862/m/6800098471001

[Lady_Jean_La]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23927.html

“I am firmly committed to repealing don’t ask, don’t tell,” Gillibrand wrote. “Not only am I working closely with Congressman Murphy and Sen. Kennedy’s offices to develop support for repeal legislation, but I will be among the original co-sponsors of the bill when it’s introduced.”



Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23927.html#ixzz0Itd4JQAh&C

[baywench]

amazing isn't it, they are fighting for our freedoms, yet some wish to deny them theirs

I am a staunch republican with a gay daughter in the mililtary. Here's a few things I found most surprising

How many gays there are in the military.

How among her fellow soldiers it is a non-issue

When stationed overseas they all would have died for any of their fellow soldiers. Fear and mission make for a level playing field.

She was born that way.

How many of these fine men and women, gay and straight I have met and am so grateful they are willing to do what they do.