How about another National Protest...This time for Integrity in Washington!!! [Archive]

Carol25

04-23-2009, 12:44 PM

dinojen

04-23-2009, 12:49 PM

I don't think they know what the word means...that goes for everyone...:rolleyes:

firsttoserve

04-23-2009, 12:50 PM

As long as it doesn't take the low road such as the tea-bag parties..I'm game!

Carol25

04-23-2009, 02:14 PM

Anybody else? We only need about a million more! :thumbsup:

Lady_Jean_La

04-24-2009, 06:08 PM

As soon as I get my stimulus check! Let's all stimulate Washington, D.C.

Carol25

04-24-2009, 06:26 PM

We were tired of all of this last November, and we elected Obama and a Democratic majority in the House and Senate, although not perfect, it's a big improvement over the Bush days gone by. We protested at the ballot box in November and it was something over 60 million American voters participated in. Sorry if you missed it.
I'm happy you are pleased with what we have, but there are many of us who aren't. We have a hard time finding politicians to head cabinet positions who have paid their taxes, we find that many of our lawmakers vote for what is good for THEM or their party rather than their country and vote for the highest bills and budgets known in history, sometimes without reading them!

Many are are unhappy and their voices ought to be heard as well.

bagerroness

04-24-2009, 06:41 PM

Are you tired of scandals and deceit in Washington on both sides of the aisle? Tired of seeing people not paying taxes and getting away with it when we would go to jail? How about another National Protest but this time We want Integrity on Capitol Hill!!!

For years we have seen politics as usual and dealings behind closed doors. It's time to see that our interests are taken into account. No more Administration breaking laws and Congress allowing it, no more looking the other way when Congress people have broken oaths of office and the Ethics panel takes months to "look" at a problem. We've got to be active in letting Washington know we are Mad as HE!! and We're not going to take it anymore. Wake up America! Fantastic Thread ! I thought the repubs were bad concerning scandals and ethical problems.. but in just a short time Ive seen more scandals, ethical and tax problems since January. Not to mention the egregious spending and taxation on the american people.. its really does cause alarms bells and we do need to speak out and be heard.. these people in Washington work for US as Ive been saying all along...they are not above the Law. The current majority in Congress is turning a blind eye on several Democrats who should be under investigation.. I dont know what's going on soon congress will be on another long holiday break with our Economy still in the pitts and millions of lay-offs.. they dont have a clue as to what's going on in this country they are so isolated ! We need a voice for the people.. IMO

flareon

04-25-2009, 12:07 AM

I'm happy you are pleased with what we have, but there are many of us who aren't. We have a hard time finding politicians to head cabinet positions who have paid their taxes, we find that many of our lawmakers vote for what is good for THEM or their party rather than their country and vote for the highest bills and budgets known in history, sometimes without reading them!

Many are are unhappy and their voices ought to be heard as well.

Absolutely. Many people just don't like corruption, no matter what letter is behind the name.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 01:30 AM

Not to mention the egregious spending and taxation on the american people..snipped

What taxation are you talking about?

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 09:52 AM

Fantastic Thread ! I thought the repubs were bad concerning scandals and ethical problems.. but in just a short time Ive seen more scandals, ethical and tax problems since January. Not to mention the egregious spending and taxation on the american people.. its really does cause alarms bells and we do need to speak out and be heard.. these people in Washington work for US as Ive been saying all along...they are not above the Law. The current majority in Congress is turning a blind eye on several Democrats who should be under investigation.. I dont know what's going on soon congress will be on another long holiday break with our Economy still in the pitts and millions of lay-offs.. they dont have a clue as to what's going on in this country they are so isolated ! We need a voice for the people.. IMO

Just curious, but didn't the people of this Great Nation just have a National Election? Voice of the People? Hmmmmm, spending the last 8 yrs with one's eyes shut may have not been a good thing....:sad:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 01:23 PM

Just curious, but didn't the people of this Great Nation just have a National Election? Voice of the People? Hmmmmm, spending the last 8 yrs with one's eyes shut may have not been a good thing....:sad:
You are absolutely right, firsttoserve. And I think it taught us all a good lesson. We won't do that again.

The last election was "more of the same" or "change." The American people spoke. They are getting "change," now it is up to the people to decide if this is the change the wanted.

Both of these administrations may be a lesson for our country. We will see how everything turns out. Let's hope and pray that everything turns out well.

But let the people be heard. Finally they have awakened and taking notice. That is one lesson the last administration taught us and we shouldn't lose it.

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 01:48 PM

You are absolutely right, firsttoserve. And I think it taught us all a good lesson. We won't do that again.

The last election was "more of the same" or "change." The American people spoke. They are getting "change," now it is up to the people to decide if this is the change the wanted.

Both of these administrations may be a lesson for our country. We will see how everything turns out. Let's hope and pray that everything turns out well.

But let the people be heard. Finally they have awakened and taking notice. That is one lesson the last administration taught us and we shouldn't lose it.

Most folks are happy with the change. Some are bitter they lost, no doubt....:wink:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 01:57 PM

Most folks are happy with the change. Some are bitter they lost, no doubt....:wink:
That is true, too. Some are bitter they lost as well as some are fearing the increasing debt.

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 02:03 PM

The people of this Nation spoke in 2000 and 2004 also.
I bet you thought it was OK to question, protest, and speak up for or against the administration and congress during those years too.

Sure did. And I was active duty all those yrs.....:thumbup:

Freebird

04-25-2009, 06:42 PM

Brentwood

04-25-2009, 06:48 PM

More like Voice of the Giving-Obama-a-Free-Pass Media

You are misinformed, IMO. Those who think your way are shrinking for a very good reason. I know you don't like it but is for the betterment of all.

Freebird

04-25-2009, 06:58 PM

Yes, I am tired of it all. I am onboard with letting anyone and everyone know that as an American I expect better than we have been getting.

I think that even though last weeks tea parties were mainly about being against the excessive tax and spending, there was not a totally cohesive message because lots of people are mad about so many different things! They were kind of all mixed up into the general idea of "we are mad about so many excesses from the government". It is the combination of so many things that are coming to a head, that it is hard to know where to start or what issues to tackle.
jmo

Looks like the incumbents forgot the lesson they were taught in 1994.May be time to get the brooms again.

theal3

04-25-2009, 07:11 PM

We were tired of all of this last November, and we elected Obama and a Democratic majority in the House and Senate, although not perfect, it's a big improvement over the Bush days gone by. We protested at the ballot box in November and it was something over 60 million American voters participated in. Sorry if you missed it.

ITA, I for one am willing to give the administration more than a few months before passing judgement. I like what's been done so far. The election is over, they are working hard and being transparent, and some will NEVER be satisfied. They were made before the election, during the election and after the election. Always MAD. Perpetual state of complaining.

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 07:14 PM

ITA, I for one am willing to give the administration more than a few months before passing judgement. I like what's been done so far. The election is over, they are working hard and being transparent, and some will NEVER be satisfied. They were made before the election, during the election and after the election. Always MAD. Perpetual state of complaining.

Great post. The rhetoric started during the campaign,and never stopped. I often wonder what some posters would be doing had Barack not won.......One thing for certain, they'd have found something to belly-ache about! My Goodness!:rolleyes:

flareon

04-25-2009, 07:14 PM

Looks like the incumbents forgot the lesson they were taught in 1994.May be time to get the brooms again.

It never fails. You would think these people could look at the history of elections and learn, but they don't. It is almost as though they can't help themselves.

Carol25

04-25-2009, 07:31 PM

ITA, I for one am willing to give the administration more than a few months before passing judgement. I like what's been done so far. The election is over, they are working hard and being transparent, and some will NEVER be satisfied. They were made before the election, during the election and after the election. Always MAD. Perpetual state of complaining.
That's a good idea, theal. I am worried about the spending, but that's done. Let's see if there is a turnaround and if there can be some big cuts in the existing programs that are redundant or ineffective to see some cost cutting measures. That would be great!

Carol25

04-25-2009, 07:48 PM

Singular, by now, I believe almost everyone has looked up that term in the urban dictionary and found how obscene that word is. I will kindly ask you not to use it.

Second of all, I agree with you that anyone who acts inappropriately in any protest should be handled by the law just as the law dictates.

Thirdly, this past protest was not against any election or it would have happened months earlier, wouldn't it? It was about people unhappy with the state of affairs. It should have happened years ago during the last administration and we didn't see your party do anything about it. Was it your intention to sit quietly by and let all of that happen?

Well, citizens know have learned a lesson. They aren't going to sit by and just let things happen again. They will protest and have every right to do so. Check out the Constitution.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 08:40 PM

You are absolutely right, firsttoserve. And I think it taught us all a good lesson. We won't do that again.

snipped.

What won't we do again? :confused:

daniel green

04-25-2009, 08:41 PM

:laugh: You aren't expecting an answer, are you?

Heck, no. I am still waiting for the answer to the question I asked about the "seven planes hijacked on 9/11" months ago. :sad:

daniel green

04-25-2009, 08:43 PM

snipped
Well, citizens know have learned a lesson. They aren't going to sit by and just let things happen again. .

They won't let WHAT happen again? :confused:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 09:11 PM

What won't we do again? :confused:
I was responding the firsttoserve when he said "spending 8 years with your eyes closed." We won't do that again. We will be aware of what is going on and if we see something is going on we don't agree with, we'll let Washington know.

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 09:47 PM

:beer:I was responding the firsttoserve when he said "spending 8 years with your eyes closed." We won't do that again. We will be aware of what is going on and if we see something is going on we don't agree with, we'll let Washington know.

Here, here....:beer:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 09:59 PM

Link to your assertion that "we didn't see YOUR PARTY do anything about it", and "your, (my) intention to sit quietly by and let all of that happen"?

I believe hundreds of thousands (no, millions in the USA and worldwide) protested the war, protested Bush, and hundreds of thousands in the USA worked for and got Barack Obama elected.... that is a little more than "sit quietly by and let all of that happen", as you phrase it.

Get to work, we got to work, and we got what we want in a President, what over 60% of Americans now support as President. You didn't get what you wanted, whatever that was, give us our chance, and stop complaining that the American democratic election system works for the majority of the people. If you want a dictatorship of the few, I suggest you find another country, here the majority rules after elections, and the minority is protected by the Constitution's bill of rights to work to change the system lawfully, just as supporters of Obama did last year.

Please study up on the dozens of protests against Bush's policies that happened in the last 8 years, culminating by over 60 million people voting for Obama. That's the American way! Love it of work to change it, not with Fox News sponsored and hyped tea bags but with reason, logic, and votes.
Take it easy, Singular. You won't find a post that says I wanted anything but a democratic election and I was nothing but happy when Obama was elected. Nor was there any discussion of Fox news.

This issue was about protesting. And I still say if there are issues that Americans are unhappy about, they should protest. That too, is the way in a free society. Let the people be heard.

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:01 PM

Link to your assertion that "we didn't see YOUR PARTY do anything about it", and "your, (my) intention to sit quietly by and let all of that happen"?

I believe hundreds of thousands (no, millions in the USA and worldwide) protested the war, protested Bush, and hundreds of thousands in the USA worked for and got Barack Obama elected.... that is a little more than "sit quietly by and let all of that happen", as you phrase it.

Get to work, we got to work, and we got what we want in a President, what over 60% of Americans now support as President. You didn't get what you wanted, whatever that was, give us our chance, and stop complaining that the American democratic election system works for the majority of the people. If you want a dictatorship of the few, I suggest you find another country, here the majority rules after elections, and the minority is protected by the Constitution's bill of rights to work to change the system lawfully, just as supporters of Obama did last year.

Please study up on the dozens of protests against Bush's policies that happened in the last 8 years, culminating by over 60 million people voting for Obama. That's the American way! Love it of work to change it, not with Fox News sponsored and hyped tea bags but with reason, logic, and votes.
I think in all, this is an interesting debate, but we actually agree on the same principles. Think about it.

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:09 PM

You are admitting you slept through George W Bush, and the deaths of over 7200 Americans, on both 9/11 and in Iraq, believing his lies that Iraq was connected to 9/11? You weren't paying attention as George W Bush DOUBLED THE NATIONAL DEBT???? You were asleep when the Bush administration restricted your rights to protest, gained the ability to listen in on your phone calls without a warrant, gave corporations huge tax breaks and yet kept people from gaining rights to union organizing? While the cost of gasoline went from $1 a gallon in 2001 to $4 in 2007, you were asleep through all of those events?

Now that we have the greatest international recession since the great depression of the 1930's, now that your federal income taxes have been lowered in an attempt to fix what George W Bush left as a mess for Obama, now you decided to wake up and protest the doctor and his methods when he is coming to fix the sick patient?
Singulaar, I was not asleep during that horrible time and it continues still. I wish we were out the minute Obama took office or three years ago, but alas it didn't happen. O better yet, never went in!!!!!

If President Obama is the doctor, I pray he's a miracle worker and comes up with a cure. I will be singing his praises so loudly you will hear me from where your standing! I am not his enemy...just a worried citizen and not alone. Nor am I yours, my friend.

BTW, I am NOT a Republican... :wink:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:16 PM

I have to disagree, Not only disagree, but ask you what you learned from your study of American history. What was American history all about? Simply PROTEST? Not at all.

if there are issues that Americans are unhappy about, they have to get out of their chair, off their couch, walk off the protest lines, and get to work fixing what is wrong. That's what people do to fix things they are unhappy about. Protest alone does NOT ONE SINGLE thing to improve the USA. Look at what lessons we can learn about CHANGE from the work of Obama supporters over the past two years, they didn't just PROTEST to get Obama elected, they went a lot further than that.

Now, if you just learned to use your voice and to speak, that's great, but you need to learn how to use that voice, along with other voices, and need to learn more than how to sing together, you have to learn how to WORK together, (UNDER THE LAWS OF OUR NATION) to change. If there are issues Americans are unhappy about, they need to WORK, not just PROTEST. Any thoughtful study of American history, from the time of colonization to the election of 2008 will teach you that, change comes NOT from simply vocal protest, change comes from the difficult task of thoughtful discussion, listening to each other, and the hardest part of working together.
Can you write that to Congress? (bolding is mine!!!)

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:28 PM

I think you are still in protest mode, pointing fingers is NOT part of working together. Working together involves listening to all side and all people from all walks of life, not pointing fingers at any of the, but learning to work WITH them instead of pointing fingers.
I am not pointing fingers. My motto is that there should be a sign on the door of Congress that says forget your party here. The work we do inside is for the good of our country..not our party.

No D's or R's allowed. Wouldn't that be great? Everyone could actually talk and as you say discuss and come up with solutions together?

I really am not in protest mood. I just don't like party affiliations. They get in the way of working together. Don't you think that's really the crux of the problem?

firsttoserve

04-25-2009, 10:32 PM

I am not pointing fingers. My motto is that there should be a sign on the door of Congress that says forget your party here. The work we do inside is for the good of our country..not our party.

No D's or R's allowed. Wouldn't that be great? Everyone could actually talk and as you say discuss and come up with solutions together?

I really am not in protest mood. I just don't like party affiliations. They get in the way of working together. Don't you think that's really the crux of the problem?

Careful, Carol, some of us are beginning to believe you!!!!:smile:

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:34 PM

I think the Republicans are the problem and the Democrats are the Problem. They are both always looking for the "Gotcha moment". All the time they spend on this clandestine espionage on each other is such a waste. Fraud and deceit is going to come out somehow. Let it come out naturally and wham...whoever it is GET EM!

And carry on with the nation's business. Talk to one another. Don't stop bills in committee because it's the other party. If something is worth funding, it's worth debating...no more earmarks. If some one is a party pusher (votes partyline) call them one it...he has no brain!

Singular, did I bore you to death?

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:40 PM

Careful, Carol, some of us are beginning to believe you!!!!:smile:
Well, that's just how I feel. And I don't see any change in Congress no matter who has the majority. Not enough integrity in that bunch to be honest representatives of our country. They care about where the funding for their next campaign is coming from. That's all it is. Get those lobbyists out of there.

The people have to show them it's more than money that gives them their jobs. It's their votes, too.

Carol25

04-25-2009, 10:52 PM

So now you want YOUR rules to apply to everyone else, which is tantamount to disrespecting those that hold views different than your own. Some people are proud to be Republican, some proud to be Democrats. If you start your efforts to make changes by making yopur own rules about who can be or do what, I doubt your influence will be noted. If you want to win friends and influence people, listening to who they are and respecting where they come from is the first lesson you need to apply.

You may "just not like party affliliations" but that is the crux of YOUR problem in reaching out to them, not their problem being who they are.

If you cannot accept and respect people for who they are, you won't get far in winning their confidence in you or your opinions, and you won't be likely to enlist them to achieve the change you have on your agenda.
Actually I didn't realize I had an adenda. But I guess I denegrated both parties by saying they are both the problem. So I will in essence say you are right this was all MO, thus MY PROBLEM. I stand corrected.

I certainly wasn't trying to inflence people or win over friends, I think that book has already been written. I never expected for anyone to follow my rules. You are certaily going too far with that one. Can't concede that. And I have every bit of respect for people and the opinions as I respect yours. And as you can see I stop, analyze and evaluate if I feel you are right, which I think at times you have been too hasty to do. I have conceded some to you and I thank you bringing those points out.

libbelle

04-25-2009, 11:12 PM

I'd like to say I'm enjoying the back and forth between the two of you and can see valid points on both sides. We probably would be better off if we didn't have parties. But I think it's just human nature to bond with like minded people, to go after an issue because there's strength in numbers.

At the same time, I haven't seen too many protests ever change many minds. It takes hard work and organizing to get people together. And while people on the right might think their t-parties are helping, I don't consider it very helpful for them to keep saying that their protests are the people speaking. Who do they think voted overwhelmingly for the new president? If we aren't people, and we don't count for some reason or other, I'd sure like to know why not. It's one thing to be mad and quite another to insult all the Obama voters.

Anyhow, good discussion and much appreciated.

libbelle

04-25-2009, 11:14 PM

In my opinion said protest should have happened many times over the last 8 years.

The horse escaped the barn on that one.

My opinion.

Why? Name a protest that ever accomplished anything other then make the protesters feel good.

Fels Naptha

04-25-2009, 11:16 PM

Why? Name a protest that ever accomplished anything other then make the protesters feel good.

Good point. However it would have made ME feel better. Something like:

"Just say no to George and Dick".

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:40 PM

I was responding the firsttoserve when he said "spending 8 years with your eyes closed." We won't do that again. We will be aware of what is going on and if we see something is going on we don't agree with, we'll let Washington know.

But there were massive protests against GWB and his policies. Not only in the US, but throughout the world.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:42 PM

I believe hundreds of thousands (no, millions in the USA and worldwide) protested the war, protested Bush, and hundreds of thousands in the USA worked for and got Barack Obama elected.... that is a little more than "sit quietly by and let all of that happen", as you phrase it.

snipped

Indeed, Singular. Indeed.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:47 PM

Why? Name a protest that ever accomplished anything other then make the protesters feel good.

Protests against the Viet Nam war.

Civil Rights protests.

libbelle

04-25-2009, 11:47 PM

But there were massive protests against GWB and his policies. Not only in the US, but throughout the world.

Sure there was, and what good did they do? They were totally ignored by the administration. I read somewhere that the anti-war protest of 2003 about 60 million people turned out worldwide. Lotta good it did.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:48 PM

snipped If some one is a party pusher (votes partyline) call them one it...he has no brain!

I disagree, completely.

Parties are not the problem.

And, certainly, a partyline voter does not mean he/she has no brain. In fact, in looking back at someone, say, like Sen Kennedy, one would be hard pressed to make such a statement.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:50 PM

Sure there was, and what good did they do? They were totally ignored by the administration. I read somewhere that the anti-war protest of 2003 about 60 million people turned out worldwide. Lotta good it did.

I think they did an amazing amount of good.

GWB had the lowest approval ratings of any President, including Nixon. Rumsfeld had to quit. Cheney, well, we all know.

President Obama was elected, in great part, because of his early and repeated anti-Iraq war stance.

libbelle

04-25-2009, 11:52 PM

Protests against the Viet Nam war.

Civil Rights protests.

OK 30-40 years ago I'll give you that. Especially the civil rights marches. They were pointing out things that were really egregious. They might have been the last to work.

But I'm not even sure that the Vietnam war protests worked after Kent State and the war went on for another 5 years.

daniel green

04-25-2009, 11:57 PM

Excellent points, daniel. I might add, i would like to hear more about Tenet in the next few weeks. :biggrin:

Can't you just hear the lawyering up going on right now? :ohmy:

libbelle

04-25-2009, 11:58 PM

I think they did an amazing amount of good.

GWB had the lowest approval ratings of any President, including Nixon. Rumsfeld had to quit. Cheney, well, we all know.

President Obama was elected, in great part, because of his early and repeated anti-Iraq war stance.

I'm a little suprised that you would attribute low approval ratings to protests. I think GWB did that all by himself. And Rumsfeld with his, we go with the army we have, not the army we want (paraphrase) line did himself in too.

And you know that most of the protests were "anti-war" and Obama has never been anti-war, just anti-dumb war.

I think it's when we used the energy of the protesters to organize people that we finally had a chance of winning. I think people can protest until the cows come home and it won't change votes.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:02 AM

snipped
And you know that most of the protests were "anti-war" and Obama has never been anti-war, just anti-dumb war.

.

I think that the VN protests changed the course of history in the US. It certainly changed public opinion of that war.

The President was the earliest opponent of the IRAQ war. And I believe that is one of the reasons that he became the candidate for the presidency.

I do not think that it was the anti-war protests themselves that gave GWB the bad numbers. But I do believe that it was the combined energy of all that--the protests, the movies which protested the war, the protest in blogs and news, etc--that once again changed the direction of this country. This time with the election of the President.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:10 AM

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:12 AM

I think that the VN protests changed the course of history in the US. It certainly changed public opinion of that war.

The President was the earliest opponent of the IRAQ war. And I believe that is one of the reasons that he became the candidate for the presidency.

I do not think that it was the anti-war protests themselves that gave GWB the bad numbers. But I do believe that it was the combined energy of all that--the protests, the movies which protested the war, the protest in blogs and news, etc--that once again changed the direction of this country. This time with the election of the President.

When I talk about protests I mean people getting together and out on the streets. I don't disagree with you at all about movies, books, blogs, news, any of that. But most protests these days don't seem to have any focus.

I do think that the immigration protest in LA last year (or the year before) might have helped them. They looked great, they were totally focused on what they wanted and no violence.

But even with the lefts anti-war protests these days you see signs about every LW issue. No focus at all. Just like we saw with the t-parties. Also these days the cops very often break them up early or corral the protesters into an area where they can't be seen or the press can't get to them.

I just think they're a waste of time.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:15 AM

snipped

I do think that the immigration protest in LA last year (or the year before) might have helped them. They looked great, they were totally focused on what they wanted and no violence.

.

Oops, forgot those. They were great and, I think, effective.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:18 AM

I became a US citizen the year of Kent State, having marched in the first moratorium on the war, my Sr yr in high school.

When I went to take my citizenship test--along with my parents and brother--my parents were very nervous that we would do or say something to compromise it, given our "hippy" hair and clothes.

The INS officer who gave me the test asked me what rights were guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

I said the right to free speech, the right to protest, the freedom of (or from) religion.

So he asks, "What else? Something you look like you do."

And I searched my head and couldn't come up with it. And he said, "It's the right to assemble." And glowered at me.

I said, "Tell that to Kent State."

And he said "What it doesn't give anyone is the right to call police "pigs."

Thankfully, my brother ahemed loudly and cooler minds prevailed and I passed the test. Even if not before a few more back and forths between the officer and me.

True story.

And a wonderful story it is. But he was wrong, you have every right to call a policeman a pig. However it probably isn't very smart. :biggrin:

I can see why you would have a soft spot for protests, I agree that the Vietnam marches changed the course of history. But I'm just not sure it really worked. After all, the war wasn't over until 1975.

I'm delighted that the right has decided that protesting is the way to go and I'd encourage them to keep them up. :wink:

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:21 AM

And a wonderful story it is. But he was wrong, you have every right to call a policeman a pig. However it probably isn't very smart. :biggrin:

I can see why you would have a soft spot for protests, I agree that the Vietnam marches changed the course of history. But I'm just not sure it really worked. After all, the war wasn't over until 1975.

I'm delighted that the right has decided that protesting is the way to go and I'd encourage them to keep them up. :wink:

Of course he was wrong. :cursing: And that was just what I was fixing to go off on him about when my brother--ever the diplomat--ahemed. Because, of course, what was not very smart was me getting into it with the officer who was going to determine whether or not I passed the test.

I am a total protest enthusiast and have protested many a time in my life.

Now, there is a huge difference between protesting and pitching a fit.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:22 AM

Oops, forgot those. They were great and, I think, effective.

I read somewhere that while they were trying to organize the protest the word went out that they all had to look good. Go take a gander at some pictures, all the families could have been going to church. Now go to any other protest's pictures. I'd go look for some pics but my computers a little slow for that kind of thing.

So, maybe that protest worked. What did they want? I have no idea. Did they get what they wanted? Although one good thing it did was let the politicians know just how many of them there are and they will vote. So, in that case...well, it's probably a win. Can you say that about any other protest in the past 20 years?

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:24 AM

bagerroness

04-26-2009, 12:25 AM

But there were massive protests against GWB and his policies. Not only in the US, but throughout the world.

obama is following the same Bush policies in Iraq and Afghanistan and he also has Bush's War man Gates on board. So we should be expecting to see the same protests.. just a different man in the WH.. imo :wink: code pink anti-war group is still on the warpath on Capital Hill they attend almost every single hearing with the war protest signs

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:27 AM

Of course he was wrong. :cursing: And that was just what I was fixing to go off on him about when my brother--ever the diplomat--ahemed. Because, of course, what was not very smart was me getting into it with the officer who was going to determine whether or not I passed the test.

I am a total protest enthusiast and have protested many a time in my life.

Now, there is a huge difference between protesting and pitching a fit.

And I think it is wonderful you are an enthusiast. But I also think the diffence between protesting and pitching a fit is whether or not you are involved. :lol:

I'd never try and discourage someone from getting off their butt and joining people they agree with. It's fun.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:27 AM

snipped Can you say that about any other protest in the past 20 years?

I have seen the pictures and it makes me cry (literally) to see those families looking so nice. And the point, ultimately, was to let politicians know how many of them (we) vote.

As to other marches in the past 20 yrs, yes. Marches for gay rights and marches for AIDS/HIV policy changes and increased funding. Just the nature of the AIDS quilt, alone, changed the course of things.

Of course, just think what could have been prevented had Harvey Milk--may he RIP--would have been alive.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:30 AM

One last thing---of course he asked my very conservative parents to read ONE line in English and asked my brother to read like a paragraph. But he had me read a chapter from a book and explain it to him, to boot.

Government justice for the new citizen huh? I'll bet you were furious, I sure would have been.

Carol25

04-26-2009, 12:30 AM

I became a US citizen the year of Kent State, having marched in the first moratorium on the war, my Sr yr in high school.

When I went to take my citizenship test--along with my parents and brother--my parents were very nervous that we would do or say something to compromise it, given our "hippy" hair and clothes.

The INS officer who gave me the test asked me what rights were guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

I said the right to free speech, the right to protest, the freedom of (or from) religion.

So he asks, "What else? Something you look like you do."

And I searched my head and couldn't come up with it. And he said, "It's the right to assemble." And glowered at me.

I said, "Tell that to Kent State."

And he said "What it doesn't give anyone is the right to call police "pigs."

Thankfully, my brother ahemed loudly and cooler minds prevailed and I passed the test. Even if not before a few more back and forths between the officer and me.

True story.
I wonder if Mom and Dad heard that exchange and thought, "Oh dear how many more years do we have to wait now?" I lived in Ohio then and it was very frightening. I had been out of college a year, IIRC.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:31 AM

Government justice for the new citizen huh? I'll bet you were furious, I sure would have been.

Why do you think it's STILL fresh in my memory? :cursing::cursing::cursing:

Fels Naptha

04-26-2009, 12:33 AM

OK 30-40 years ago I'll give you that. Especially the civil rights marches. They were pointing out things that were really egregious. They might have been the last to work.

But I'm not even sure that the Vietnam war protests worked after Kent State and the war went on for another 5 years.

In that respect I agree. After Kent State not much of anything worked. Another sad chapter in our history.

One has to love Neil Young and "OHIO".

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:38 AM

I wonder if Mom and Dad heard that exchange and thought, "Oh dear how many more years do we have to wait now?" snipped.

They were giving me the full on "you're totally on your own, young lady," eyes.

Of course, as I was then very like I am now I grumbled loudly about the inherent unfairness (and the obvious limitations of protest!) in making me read AND explain, etc, till my dad mentioned something about me having to find my own way home (and the test was in Miami Beach and we lived clear across that and the city of Miami). :blushing:

On a serious note, it was one of the most humbling experiences in my life--protesting the war in VN for years, alongside many brave young men who were drafted to serve in it.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 12:43 AM

I have seen the pictures and it makes me cry (literally) to see those families looking so nice. And the point, ultimately, was to let politicians know how many of them (we) vote.

As to other marches in the past 20 yrs, yes. Marches for gay rights and marches for AIDS/HIV policy changes and increased funding. Just the nature of the AIDS quilt, alone, changed the course of things.

Of course, just think what could have been prevented had Harvey Milk--may he RIP--would have been alive.

I admit I was thrilled by all those beautiful families too. They did look so nice. And if it was a good wake up call to the politicians then I'm happy.

But I think if you go looking most of the AIDS big protests were about 20 years ago or more. Although I guess they went back to DC a couple of more times after the first time. And the big protests about funding was either during Reagan or shortly after that. Unless you think that the Gay Pride parades are a protest.

I still think we're going to have to find a better way to make changes. I just don't think that protests have any oomph today. Maybe if people would take a break they would get it back, but it looks like the right is going to take over for awhile. LOL

daniel green

04-26-2009, 12:47 AM

snipped

But I think if you go looking most of the AIDS big protests were about 20 years ago or more. Although I guess they went back to DC a couple of more times after the first time.

The AIDS quilt started in, what, 89? ActUp continued to protest for many yrs. But, yeah, the big protests were in 88-89, so 20 yrs. Gosh, it's hard to believe it's been that long. My husband and I will have been married 20 yrs in May. We met while volunteering at the Ntl AIDS Hotline and attended many of those events/protests.

Freebird

04-26-2009, 12:57 AM

obama is following the same Bush policies in Iraq and Afghanistan and he also has Bush's War man Gates on board. So we should be expecting to see the same protests.. just a different man in the WH.. imo :wink: code pink anti-war group is still on the warpath on Capital Hill they attend almost every single hearing with the war protest signs

Where's that change we were promised?

libbelle

04-26-2009, 01:00 AM

Interesting point, today and historically. iirc Goldwater was painted the "nuke them now and get it over candidate" ... then via circumstance LBJ inherited the war .. same electorate who mistrusted Nixon, also voted him in and if anything can be said positive about Nixon, he did meet that campaign promise, he ended the war. In all due respect and seriousness, is it possible Nixon was "listening?"

I wasn't sure of my facts and just went and looked, and discovered I should have looked earlier. You might be right that Nixon was listening. He ended the draft in 1973 and the war ended in 73 too. So I was wrong in my timeline and you could very well have been correct.

But it doesn't change my mind about protests. :biggrin:

libbelle

04-26-2009, 01:07 AM

The AIDS quilt started in, what, 89? ActUp continued to protest for many yrs. But, yeah, the big protests were in 88-89, so 20 yrs. Gosh, it's hard to believe it's been that long. My husband and I will have been married 20 yrs in May. We met while volunteering at the Ntl AIDS Hotline and attended many of those events/protests.

How time flies. :lol: Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The ACT up protests started in the 70's. And then the quilt in the 80's. Very sad time for the country. And I think all of that was effective to a degree.

I think part of the problem today is that the government uses tactics that they weren't using back then. I think there is less of a right to assemble then there used to be. It would be nice if the right could change that, they're a lot louder then we've been. But we'll have to see.

theal3

04-26-2009, 01:18 AM

Where's that change we were promised?

He got closing GITMO on the schedule and proceeding; he drawing down troops in Iraq; he's putting more in Afghan and trying to make it UN operation; he's asked eah dept and cabinet to cut 100 million from each budget, by going after each line of their budget, and looking for $ saving procedures in operations: scraping what duplicated and doesn't work, keeping what works; he's put more money in education; and the children healthcare; he got the Letbetter, discrimmination in the workplace bill signed; he expanded Americorp opportunities for youth; he changed foreign diplomatic connections and opportunities; he's give a tax cut in pay checks, and Seniors on social security will get a rebate in late May, I got my letter yesterday; he extended Stem Cell research, there more, but that's off the top of my head...

Not bad for the first almost 100 days. Good start, I'd say. Oh and unlike Bush has oversight on the Tarp and bailout funds: accountability.

That's change I can live with.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 01:23 AM

How time flies. :lol: Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The ACT up protests started in the 70's. And then the quilt in the 80's. Very sad time for the country. And I think all of that was effective to a degree.

snipped.

You got me! I have no real sense of time about things. I still cannot believe I will have been married 20 yrs.

ActUp, however, started in 1987, which is the beginning of the AIDS quilt, as well, by Cleve Jones, in San Francisco. In 87 it was displayed for the first time at the Ntl Mall. In 93 it went back to DC when the NAMES Project was asked to be in the Inaugural parade. Last displayed fully in 96, in DC. The newest 1000 "blocks" were displayed in 2004.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 01:24 AM

My god it has been that long. It's so hard to believe.

That's how I feel, too.

It seems like it was not that long ago that it was the "gay men's cancer."

Fels Naptha

04-26-2009, 01:26 AM

I wasn't sure of my facts and just went and looked, and discovered I should have looked earlier. You might be right that Nixon was listening. He ended the draft in 1973 and the war ended in 73 too. So I was wrong in my timeline and you could very well have been correct.

But it doesn't change my mind about protests. :biggrin:

The draft ended in January 73. Six months before I would have been drafted. I still have my draft card. Random sequence # 035, 1A rating. THAT was a real special day when that puppy arrived in the mail.

The war may have ended but the fighting didn't stop until the fall of Saigon in 75 and our total pull out. Kids were still going over in 73 - 74 and early 75.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 01:37 AM

You got me! I have no real sense of time about things. I still cannot believe I will have been married 20 yrs.

ActUp, however, started in 1987, which is the beginning of the AIDS quilt, as well, by Cleve Jones, in San Francisco. In 87 it was displayed for the first time at the Ntl Mall. In 93 it went back to DC when the NAMES Project was asked to be in the Inaugural parade. Last displayed fully in 96, in DC. The newest 1000 "blocks" were displayed in 2004.

:biggrin: OK I'll take your word for it. But I'm sitting right under my copy of Making Gay History by Eric Marcus. It's a terrific book and I recommend it. Lots of tidbits in it you probably won't see anywhere else.

It was Larry Kramer who came to my mind when I thought of ACTUP.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 01:41 AM

snipped

It was Larry Kramer who came to my mind when I thought of ACTUP.

Yes.

The reason I can keep up with the dates of the AIDS protests and marches is because the first reported "GRID" cases (later to be named HIV) were in 1979-80. It was still called GRID in 80.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 02:05 AM

:biggrin: No problem, an open mind is a good mind in a discussion. In fact, i wouldn't disagree with you about protests in and of themselves. in fact, i might even admit some are harmful to their own cause. What is intersesting to discuss are the intangibles ... those factors we cannot weight .. as in the instance of Nixon i cited.

Well as Fels mentioned upthread, they were still sending men to VN in 74 & 75. But I have to agree with you that Nixon was probably listening, at least a little. :wink:

But I like having the facts right and don't mind being corrected at all if I'm wrong. And you're right about the intangibles like above when DG and I were discussing the big immigration protest in LA. As far as I'm concerned it was probably the most sucessful turnout in the last 20 years.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 02:07 AM

It was just a terrible, terrible time and when I think of it I never think of HIV I think plague. It was just a plague killing young, in their prime people. And quite a few I loved. It's hard to think about it.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 02:09 AM

snipped
The last 20 have passed like the blink of an eye. Sorry didn't mean to get sentimental here.

They really have. I got very sentimental, myself.

From "gay cancer" they went on to say it was within the Haitian population, as well. That took some yrs to get rid of that misinformation.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 02:11 AM

snipped .. because the evidence was in before the whole IV drug and transfusion element.

Factor 8 (the blood product given to people with hemophilia) was one of the first things that made researchers figure it out.

theal3

04-26-2009, 02:16 AM

:biggrin: No problem, an open mind is a good mind in a discussion. In fact, i wouldn't disagree with you about protests in and of themselves. in fact, i might even admit some are harmful to their own cause. What is intersesting to discuss are the intangibles ... those factors we cannot weight .. as in the instance of Nixon i cited.

Here's a good link for a summary. In 1972-3, I had just quit teaching to be a new mom in '7 and stay at home mom. So was glued to my TV.
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/vietnamwar/a/VietnamEnd.htm

Saw all the Watergate hearings, body bags, protests etc. Nixon ran for election in '68 with secret plan to end the war,and again in '72 -- Paris Accord etc; well he got re-elected, then resigned before end of his term. Lordy those were messy times, including race riots, assassinations of leaders..... And NO CABLE TV yet for most of the country, let alone the "internets." You sure did, in those day have to be an avid "reader" to know what was going on. IMHO

They just declared Victory! But what really did it: Congress cut off the funds, they HAD to end it.

libbelle

04-26-2009, 02:18 AM

And how about the protest of the 21st century? Between economic and ecology, not a good idea to massively rally the Hummers and SUVs. Care to tell PresObama what we think? he's a modern internet kinda guy; save the fuel and talk to the man.

Some 60 million people protested worldwide in 2003. It didn't do a thing. NOTHING. That's when I started thinking about it. Then of course people protested the 2004 election, again, nothing.

I've thought about writing the president. But I've read they receive 10,000 a week. So, I guess I'll just save my strength for something else. But I think we'd be surprised if we actually knew how many people are connected online. It appears to have slacked off some since the election, but I read that about 50% of the people now get their news online.

Something will come up. Someone will reread Saul Alinsky and get an idea and run with it. I just think old fashioned marches and protests are not the way to go right now to get something done.

BTW earlier DG and I were talking about that protest in LA and how nice they all looked. It reminded me that Martin Luther King Jr told his followers to always dress nice, a suit and tie if they could.

daniel green

04-26-2009, 02:26 AM

In the early 1980s, doctors in Los Angeles, New York City, and San Francisco began seeing young men with Kaposi's Sarcoma, a cancer usually associated with elderly men of Mediterranean ethnicity. As the knowledge that men who had sex with men were dying of an otherwise rare cancer began to spread throughout the medical communities, the syndrome began to be called by the colloquialism "gay cancer." As medical scientists discovered that the syndrome included other manifestations, such as pneumocystis pneumonia, (PCP), a rare form of fungal pneumonia, its name was changed to "GRID," or Gay Related Immune Deficiency. This had an effect of boosting homophobia and adding stigma to homosexuality in the general public...
Within the medical community, it quickly became apparent that the disease was not specific to men who have sex with men (as blood transfusion patients, intravenous drug users, heterosexual and bisexual women, and newborn babies became added to the list of afflicted), and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) renamed the syndrome AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome) in 1982.
Hemophiliacs, who require injections of blood clotting factor as a course of treatment, during the 1980s also contracted HIV in large numbers worldwide through the spread of contaminated blood products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States

daniel green

04-26-2009, 02:30 AM

snipped
but that time in my life was good.

It was a very good time in mine, as well.

bagerroness

04-26-2009, 08:11 AM

I remember when Pat Buchanan (acting as Reagan's communications director) argued that AIDS is "nature's revenge on gay men." :flamemad:

Reagan's inaction with aids equaled many unnecessary deaths, IMO. I always thought reagan was the worst president in history, until bush2 came along.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/08/EDG777163F1.DTL oh, I loved Reagan he was such a great communicator and I loved his personality and you probably don't know this based on your post but GWB has done alot for the AIDs epidemic in Africa..he and his wife.. so please do a search.. thanks.. :wink: