The Crockpot redux

[Politigal]

just misc info on the case....

I recently posted a copy of a missing flyer on Ray Gricar that I found on google, and wasn't sure if it was a legitimate/official version.

Today, in looking at the Bellefonte Police Dept website, I did indeed find that it is the real mccoy. The flyer is dated 2007 --

http://bellefonte.net/departments/police/criminal-investigations/current-investigations/

an excerpt:

There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years (unconfirmed).

*unconfirmed* --

unconfirmed
adj unconfirmed [ankənˈfəːmd]
not yet shown or proved to be true

[day2day]

just misc info on the case....

I recently posted a copy of a missing flyer on Ray Gricar that I found on google, and wasn't sure if it was a legitimate/official version.

Today, in looking at the Bellefonte Police Dept website, I did indeed find that it is the real mccoy. The flyer is dated 2007 --

http://bellefonte.net/departments/police/criminal-investigations/current-investigations/

an excerpt:

There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years (unconfirmed).

*unconfirmed* --

unconfirmed
adj unconfirmed [ankənˈfəːmd]
not yet shown or proved to be true

And what I noticed on that site -date 4/14/2005-was it the 14th or the 15th--**sighs

[Politigal]

And what I noticed on that site -date 4/14/2005-was it the 14th or the 15th--**sighs


I hadn't even noticed that...it *does* say 4/14/05.

I guess because that's the last *confirmed* sighting - the courthouse surveillance video.

[day2day]

I hadn't even noticed that...it *does* say 4/14/05.

I guess because that's the last *confirmed* sighting - the courthouse surveillance video.

Mhmm-and imo this case might have been solved by now if they would have just went with the date 4/14! I would love to see that video-wouldn't you?!

[2-B]

Pgal, thanks so much for starting another Crockpot thread!

I had just been thinking how much we needed one, because I wanted to post this video link.

It might first appear to have nothing to do with the disappearance of Ray Gricar, but it actually has a great deal of relevance to discussions we've had on these boards (even to the posts on this thread).

I encourage everyone who can to watch it. You'll enjoy it just for the entertainment value, but it will say a lot about the Gricar case as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

[Politigal]

Thx 2-B...very interesting. :)

On another note, I've been looking at old news archives and I'm sure you've all noticed it too...the way Bellefonte Police trot out these little tidbits of news on the case....each anniversary.

First, it was the "odd little bombshell" (per Tony Gricar) of the mystery woman.

Second, it was the fact that there were really no identifiable finger prints found in Gricar's Mini Cooper (even though it was announced after the PSP review...job well done...no stone unturned...heckuva job Brownie)

And now, we have these strange computer searches.

What's really puzzling, is police said they hoped they would generate new tips or leads by releasing this info.

But if that was truly the case, why wasn't the mystery woman info released immediately? (rather than spare Patty Fornicola some angst)

Why wasn't the truth about the lack of prints released sooner? As Tony intimated, it's more indicative of foul play.

And *if* police had released info sooner about the hard drive erasing software and/or the searches, it might actually *have* generated some tips.

But, now, after 4 long years, do they really think they're going to get anything at all from this????

Why does it seem they're playing some sort of stupid game with this case?

[2-B]

Thx 2-B...very interesting. :)

Glad you found it interesting. I did too. And I would love to be a fly on the wall to watch the reaction of certain parties as they view it, if you catch my drift. :ohmy:

On another note, I've been looking at old news archives and I'm sure you've all noticed it too...the way Bellefonte Police trot out these little tidbits of news on the case....each anniversary.

The fingerprint release seems to stand apart as more a correction of prior misinformation than a release of new information, if that makes sense.

The other tidbits you mention all do appear geared toward dropping hints that the walkaway theory is getting the greatest play, IMO. Maybe (and this is all just purely a guess, could have nothing to do with reality) LE believes walkaway is most likely or wants to push walkaway to the forefront (as in the case of the thirteen-year-old girl I mentioned on another thread), but they can't prove it. What if (continuing speculation here) they're using these anniversary offerings as trial balloons to see what public reaction is? Do enough people grab on to the public outrage TG mentioned, expressing anger at RG, and allowing LE to move toward really putting the case on the back burner?

Or, conversely, is the public outraged at hints that RG might have walked away and the public pushes back, urging LE to continue investigating until the mystery of RG's disappearance is solved?

The game, if there is one, might be all about public relations. But that is only pure speculation on my part.

[gstickley]

[QUOTE=Politigal;13022364]just misc info on the case....

The flyer posted on the web by the Federal Bureau of Investigation/Missing Person/Gricar still lists nothing about "sightings".

[2-B]

In GB, when LE talks to the person face to face, only then can they declare walkaway. Here, we're going to resort to a vote? The only vote I care about is the one that gives us a new DA.


To be honest, I've never fully understood how it was the Wiley case was announced as "solved" so quickly. There was a lot of solid suggestion in that case that Wiley walked, but LE never found Wiley himself, alive, and talked to him face to face. Twenty-four years later, there's still "hope" that will happen.

Some time ago I read an investigative reporting series about LE and missing persons cases, I think it was in the Seattle Post Intelligencer IIRC. Two things I remember from that series: a) MP cases tended to go to low man on the totem pole, because few people wanted to handle them and b) there was usually an effort to close them as quickly as possible. Seems to me I remember "closing" sometimes meant something along these lines--if there was a stack of missing persons cases and a new one came in, the one on the bottom would be taken out of the stack and "closed," not because it was closed, but to make room for the new one coming in.

[Serendipitous1]

I have read the Gricar blogs...and (beyond their capacity to keep Ray Gricar in the "news") I cannot stress enough my disappointment with the output...total, gibberish nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2-B]

I have read the Gricar blogs...and (beyond their capacity to keep Ray Gricar in the "news") I cannot stress enough my disappointment with the output...total, gibberish nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!

All subjects, except sex, are dull until somebody makes them interesting. The writer's job is to find the argument, the approach, the angle, the wording that will take the reader with him.
~Paul McHenry Roberts

In my opinon, nothing currently in Gricar Blogland is finding "the argument, the approach, the angle, [or] the wording" to make Blogland discussion engaging, cogent, or at times, even intelligible. A sincere disappointment and one more loss for Ray Gricar.

[Serendipitous1]

All subjects, except sex, are dull until somebody makes them interesting. The writer's job is to find the argument, the approach, the angle, the wording that will take the reader with him.
~Paul McHenry Roberts

In my opinon, nothing currently in Gricar Blogland is finding "the argument, the approach, the angle, [or] the wording" to make Blogland discussion engaging, cogent, or at times, even intelligible. A sincere disappointment and one more loss for Ray Gricar.That is a fact. There is no point in attempting to engage a blogger on his home turf. At least, I will not be doing so. We each have our own point of reference...our own biases and opinions. The worth of a house is directly proportional to the soundness of its foundation (real estate 101).

[2-B]

That is a fact. There is no point in attempting to engage a blogger on his home turf. At least, I will not be doing so. We each have our own point of reference...our own biases and opinions. The worth of a house is directly proportional to the soundness of its foundation (real estate 101).

Location, location, location--another real estate truism that applies.

A free and open forum, a level playing field for all voices is preferable to a blogger's home turf.

[2-B]

But thank goodness for those cases where one officer just couldn't get the case out of mind. I have read of some recently, where it's an everyday wondering, contemplating, going over the evidence trying again and again to put the pieces together that will answer what happened and finally leads that officer to the truth. Something is found or uncovered that was overlooked.

That is how I felt watching Detective Derek McLaughlin on that Dateline story about the thirteen-year-old. I don't think I mentioned it was he who actually found the girl's skeletal remains. I literally had tears in my eyes watching his long years of unrelenting work come to sad fruition. He never believed she had run away from home and kept at it until her killer was in prison and her remains were home with her family.


Hard to believe we are that far behind--------and that slow to make moves that will improve the system. In the end, it is usually the public who finds the evidence that is handed to LE, so why doesn't LE bother to let out enough to let the public assist? Lack of trust, I suppose, which then leads to 'like begets like', same lack of trust in the system.

I found this link tonight to a forum where law enforcement officers will answer questions for the general public, and one question was about missing persons. It's not a long thread, but I was amazed at the wide variety of views and attitudes represented by the responses. Ironically, one of the posts has a link to the Seattle P-I series I mentioned!

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95099

It amazes me that in order to conclude walkaway here in the US, all you have to do is create a new personality for the missing person, taking them completely out of character and voila-------the walkaway theory takes form. Unbelievable to say the least-----------unconscionable, to say the most.

There are clearly legitimate cases where a double life emerges after someone disappears. But I have yet to hear of a disappearance that was voluntary where concrete, hard evidence of that other personality and that other life didn't emerge pretty quickly once LE began their investigation. And I have yet to hear of a voluntary disappearance that was truly an aberrant, out of character act except in cases of some kind of mental break. Evidence of any of those things is absent in the Gricar case, at least to the public's knowledge.

As the one police officer at the link above said, if a teenager with a history of running away disappears, that's one thing. If a mother with kids and no history of running away disappears when she just went out to get a pizza, that's another thing entirely.

[Serendipitous1]

This ain't over till the fat lady sings. And J.J. is neither fat or a lady. I feel a competent purging surge will come, but I know not when.

[Politigal]

char·ac·ter audio (krk-tr) KEY

NOUN:

1. The combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another.

Just a few of the adjectives that have been used to describe Ray Gricar's *character*

meticulous
responsible
loving
intelligent
private
devoted
reserved
compassionate
patient
professional
committed
organized
productive
methodical
ethical
aware
busy

Have you ever seen so many *positive* adjectives describing one individual?

[J. J. in Phila]

I have read the Gricar blogs...and (beyond their capacity to keep Ray Gricar in the "news") I cannot stress enough my disappointment with the output...total, gibberish nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!

They do serve another purpose. Unfortunately, it is too subtle for some.

One must make sure that the "purging surge" is not a smoke screen.

[Serendipitous1]

They do serve another purpose. Unfortunately, it is too subtle for some. One must make sure that the "purging surge" is not a smoke screen.God bless us, every one!

[J. J. in Phila]

God bless us, every one!



You would prefer to let the powers that be proclaim a "solution," especially if it isn't the solution? Please note the quotes.

You posted something that I found very disturbing. It was only an on-line poll, but 58% said walkaway. That could indicate preparing the public for an answer. It might not be the correct answer, but it might be the one the public will be led to.

[Cloudbuster]

The surge reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFks9A9TCF0

[gstickley]

For four (4) years, we've heard a snippet here & there about the "investigation" into the disappearance of Ray Gricar, usually about the time of each yearly anniversary. Why, after four (4) years, LE still feels it needs to keep their results "close to the vest" (another phrase for "Secret Squirrel"), I don't know. LE has kept the 3 theories alive all these years: "Suicide", "Walkaway", "Foul Play", with a special emphasis on "Walkaway". If, after four (4) years, LE cannot make a determination, I don't know why they'd still be keeping their results "close to the vest" ("Secret Squirrel") if RG "walked away" or committed suicide.

In the early days, two (2) snippets were released, which have never been heard from again. These snippets were not in any "official" LE press release that I can find.

#1: The Raystown Dam sighting. This appeared once, in an interview of Zaccagni with Renner for his "The River's Edge" article.

(snip)
Theory Two: Suicide. The family history supports this. Tony Gricar tracked down aerial photographs of both the site where his father’s car was found by a river in Dayton and from North Water Street where Ray’s car was parked by the Susquehanna. The similarities are striking. The bridge, the water, the car are all in the same place in relation to each other. Zaccagni thinks maybe Gricar kept a diary on his laptop. Maybe that’s why it’s gone. He was traveling to parks to think it through. “We know [that on Thursday, April 14] he was at another big body of water,” says Zaccagni. “He’s over in the Huntingdon area. Raystown Dam. We have some people who saw him there.”
(snip)

#2: The Shickellamy Park sighting: The only time this "sighting" was ever mentioned was during the Carla Baron "Haunting Evidence" TV production. Carla Baron "directed" Detective Thal to Shickellamy Park as to where she "saw" RG being taken. Detective Thal clearly stated that LE 'had previously received a report of a "sighting" in the park'. Thal's statement was made by him, in person, on the TV show.

To my knowledge, these two (2) "sightings" were never mentioned again.

Why not? And why were they mentioned in the first place?

[nittany90]

Spending a beautiful Sunday reading old posts :rolleyes:
Who is DPJ? A "friend" in Lewisburg? Male, female?

[J. J. in Phila]

Spending a beautiful Sunday reading old posts :rolleyes:
Who is DPJ? A "friend" in Lewisburg? Male, female?

The Hon. D. Peter Johnson, Union County District Attorney.

[nittany90]

The Hon. D. Peter Johnson, Union County District Attorney.

Duh. Someone in this case who I actually have some contact with. I didn't connect the initials, because he's really not known as "DPJ" -- just "PJ". And, just in case it's milling around out there, I don't think Pete would be considered a "friend" of Gricar's -- collegue, yes. Friend, no.

[nittany90]

I bet this has been mentioned before, but I hadn't seen it.
Brad Alvey, one of the "witnesses" who reported seeing Gricar inside the SOS, apparently had a "revelation" after first talking to the Daily Collegian reporter on April 18, 2005 before noon.

(snipped)

"The car was parked out here [Saturday]," said Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, located in the Street of Shops. "Nobody that I'm aware of saw him."

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-18-05tdc/04-18-05dnews-01.asp
But, then, apparently by April 20, 2005, his memory had changed:

(snipped)
Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, said he also told police that he believes he saw Gricar at the Street of Shops around closing time on either Friday or Saturday evening, after police showed him a photograph of the district attorney.

"I have recognized him in the building," Alvey said. "He was in an OK mood. I didn't talk to him."
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-21-05tdc/04-21-05dnews-10.asp

Guess I'll go with the fact that SOS surveillance tapes showed no signs of Gricar.

[Serendipitous1]

Duh. Someone in this case who I actually have some contact with. I didn't connect the initials, because he's really not known as "DPJ" -- just "PJ". And, just in case it's milling around out there, I don't think Pete would be considered a "friend" of Gricar's -- collegue, yes. Friend, no.IIRC, he was a member of the "posse comitatus" which rallied 'round the investigation last July, in blind obedience to the "3-monkey" rule.

[Serendipitous1]

I just got done reading the "blog-u-drama". All I can say is, wow-e-wow...thanks for helping to keep Ray Gricar's plight in the public's view. But in terms of providing any useful insight, I did not see anything new...which puts bloggers in good company with message-board posters and the official, no stone left unturned investigation.

Ray Gricar is missing, 4+ years now, and nobody has offered a cogent reason why! And if he is dead at the hand of another, there is a closing window of opportunity to bring the perpetrator(s) to justice...just ask Ronald Goldman.

[J. J. in Phila]

I bet this has been mentioned before, but I hadn't seen it.
Brad Alvey, one of the "witnesses" who reported seeing Gricar inside the SOS, apparently had a "revelation" after first talking to the Daily Collegian reporter on April 18, 2005 before noon.

(snipped)

"The car was parked out here [Saturday]," said Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, located in the Street of Shops. "Nobody that I'm aware of saw him."

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-18-05tdc/04-18-05dnews-01.asp
But, then, apparently by April 20, 2005, his memory had changed:

(snipped)
Brad Alvey, who owns Remember When Café, said he also told police that he believes he saw Gricar at the Street of Shops around closing time on either Friday or Saturday evening, after police showed him a photograph of the district attorney.

"I have recognized him in the building," Alvey said. "He was in an OK mood. I didn't talk to him."
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-21-05tdc/04-21-05dnews-10.asp

Guess I'll go with the fact that SOS surveillance tapes showed no signs of Gricar.

Those are two different locations. Alvey was referring to the parking lot on Saturday, where nobody that he knew of saw RFG (which means, he wasn't talking to Bennett). I don't have anyone seeing RFG in the Mini on Saturday, which is one of the reasons I give the 4/16/05 sighting less weight.

I'm not sure if:

1. The SoS had any surveillance cameras.

2. If any actually covered the areas where RFG/the Mini were.

I have not heard of any.

[Serendipitous1]

Face it J. J. (or not)...you are not "sure" of anything in regard to Ray Gricar's disappearance. It is an easy admission...I have made it freely. There is no shame in it...the shame lies elsewhere!

[nittany90]

Very early on the news stated there were surveillance cameras at the SOS. Shortly after that, it was in the news that the cameras were not on, therefore no tapes at that location.

The news did report shortly thereafter that LE was going through, IIRC, 200 hours of surveillance tapes, but no mention of where those tapes were from.

Just passing along what I recall from the news. Maybe someone else remembers something else, or will correct me if my 'recall' isn't.
JMO

(snipped)

Market surveillance tapes showed no sign of Gricar, Bennett said.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-21-05tdc/04-21-05dnews-10.asp
At least from this article, it appears that there were market tapes, and that there was no sign of Gricar on them. That said, the quoted source was Bennett, and not LE, so who the heck knows for sure??

[2-B]

That said, the quoted source was Bennett, and not LE, so who the heck knows for sure??

LOL. No one knows anything for sure, which is, I think, S1's point above! :wink:

[nittany90]

I'm assuming that the "suicide" they refer to in that same article is that of BJ Leathers? What a wild coincidence, huh? But, according to published reports, LE was able to account for his whereabouts when Gricar went missing and dismissed him as a suspect.

Does anyone know if his "confession" that he had killed Gricar and that his body would never be found (what a way to hide a body), was ever actually made to anyone, or was it dismissed as "complete rumor"?


(snipped)

A tip received by police and a suicide that police previously thought might have been connected to Gricar's disappearance have also been investigated and ruled out.

Police said there is no connection between Gricar's disappearance and the suicide of an unnamed person the district attorney had contact with through his job.

[sherrijean981]

For four (4) years, we've heard a snippet here & there about the "investigation" into the disappearance of Ray Gricar, usually about the time of each yearly anniversary. Why, after four (4) years, LE still feels it needs to keep their results "close to the vest" (another phrase for "Secret Squirrel"), I don't know. LE has kept the 3 theories alive all these years: "Suicide", "Walkaway", "Foul Play", with a special emphasis on "Walkaway". If, after four (4) years, LE cannot make a determination, I don't know why they'd still be keeping their results "close to the vest" ("Secret Squirrel") if RG "walked away" or committed suicide.

In the early days, two (2) snippets were released, which have never been heard from again. These snippets were not in any "official" LE press release that I can find.

#1: The Raystown Dam sighting. This appeared once, in an interview of Zaccagni with Renner for his "The River's Edge" article.

(snip)
Theory Two: Suicide. The family history supports this. Tony Gricar tracked down aerial photographs of both the site where his father’s car was found by a river in Dayton and from North Water Street where Ray’s car was parked by the Susquehanna. The similarities are striking. The bridge, the water, the car are all in the same place in relation to each other. Zaccagni thinks maybe Gricar kept a diary on his laptop. Maybe that’s why it’s gone. He was traveling to parks to think it through. “We know [that on Thursday, April 14] he was at another big body of water,” says Zaccagni. “He’s over in the Huntingdon area. Raystown Dam. We have some people who saw him there.”
(snip)

#2: The Shickellamy Park sighting: The only time this "sighting" was ever mentioned was during the Carla Baron "Haunting Evidence" TV production. Carla Baron "directed" Detective Thal to Shickellamy Park as to where she "saw" RG being taken. Detective Thal clearly stated that LE 'had previously received a report of a "sighting" in the park'. Thal's statement was made by him, in person, on the TV show.

To my knowledge, these two (2) "sightings" were never mentioned again.

Why not? And why were they mentioned in the first place?

My daughter and I were in Danville on Wed, April 22, and decided to go up to the Shikellemy Park overlook. It was closed, a barrier across the road. Was the park open on April 15, 2005? or a barrier up then? We took the entrance from Rt 11, just past the river bridge coming towards Selingsgrove, on the right. We left the area and came out on Rt 15 above Gilbert's Nursery a short ways. I thought there was another entrance going towards Lewisburg but we didn't go that way.

Also in your statement above about DZ and the siting at Huntingdon, he is saying, "we have some people who saw him there". I wonder who the people were? It was said on the forum it was "A" doctor. Again, what doctor and did they actually talk to him? Was he visiting a doctor that day? JJ, I know you said something about the "doctor" part of it before, were you aware it was more than one person?

[nittany90]

Question for all you experts here: In an effort to avoid the research myself, because I'm sure one of you have already done it and have a saved link in your files :wink: There are benefits to joining the party late.

Has there ever been a case in the US where a "missing person" turned into a "solved - walkaway" and 4+ more years later, the person was found, living their new life? Forget Mel Wiley. To my knowledge, he's never been "found". Basically, show me a case where the person was able to pull it off for 4+ years without detection.

If you can find a few "successful/found" walkaways, then narrow it down to those who had none of the "classic" motives prior to the walkaway: no financial problems, no relationship problems, no criminal history, no medical/mental problems.

Can you even find one????

[2-B]

Question for all you experts here: In an effort to avoid the research myself, because I'm sure one of you have already done it and have a saved link in your files :wink: There are benefits to joining the party late.

Has there ever been a case in the US where a "missing person" turned into a "solved - walkaway" and 4+ more years later, the person was found, living their new life? Forget Mel Wiley. To my knowledge, he's never been "found". Basically, show me a case where the person was able to pull it off for 4+ years without detection.

If you can find a few "successful/found" walkaways, then narrow it down to those who had none of the "classic" motives prior to the walkaway: no financial problems, no relationship problems, no criminal history, no medical/mental problems.

Can you even find one????

To answer your question, I've never found a case that fits the parameters you've described.

A corollary question I've asked several times:

Has there ever been a case where the voluntary walkaway missing person

a) was a person of good character and integrity AND

b) had a family history where there had already been a prior missing person, so that the voluntary walkaway person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family?

The only answer I've ever gotten was Mel Wiley, who of course does not fit those parameters.

[Serendipitous1]

This is for all...but especially for SJ. I did not see a single Gricar letter to the editor published in the CDT this month. But I saw where the CDT recently ran a whole page of letters by people who were not from Centre County. One could hope the CDT might do that again!

[Cloudbuster]

When Rays laptop went missing why didn't the FBI use this tecnology to track anything on it?
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/fbi-spyware-pro

Also S1 do you know what contractor group was doing work at the SOS at the time of disappearance? Also do you know what contractor group worked on the I-99 roads?

[J. J. in Phila]

To answer your question, I've never found a case that fits the parameters you've described.

A corollary question I've asked several times:

Has there ever been a case where the voluntary walkaway missing person

a) was a person of good character and integrity AND

b) had a family history where there had already been a prior missing person, so that the voluntary walkaway person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family?

The only answer I've ever gotten was Mel Wiley, who of course does not fit those parameters.

Jay Carsey, and Wiley was of "good character."

In the second case, no other member of the family voluntarily walked away.

W could easily change the question to "had a family history where there had already been a suicide, so that the suicidal person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family?" The answer is "Hemingway, Ernest."

[2-B]

Jay Carsey, and Wiley was of "good character."

In the second case, no other member of the family voluntarily walked away.

W could easily change the question to "had a family history where there had already been a suicide, so that the suicidal person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family?" The answer is "Hemingway, Ernest."

Neither Carsey nor Wiley had a family history with a previous missing person. So, as I've said a half dozen times when you answered "Carsey and Wiley," they don't answer my question.

And no, we couldn't easily change the question to "had a family history where there had already been a suicide so that the suicidal person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family."

Suicide is not a rational act. It is an act of desperation by a desperate and/or mentally ill person. And in fact, in their desperation and/or illness, suicidal persons often want to punish those they are leaving behind to deal with the emotional fallout.

A planned and voluntary walkaway would be a rational act by a rational and calculating person.

[J. J. in Phila]

Neither Carsey nor Wiley had a family history with a previous missing person. So, as I've said a half dozen times when you answered "Carsey and Wiley," they don't answer my question.


They refer to "good character."



And no, we couldn't easily change the question to "had a family history where there had already been a suicide so that the suicidal person knew exactly what pain he/she would be inflicting on the family."

Suicide is not a rational act. It is an act of desperation by a desperate and/or mentally ill person. And in fact, in their desperation and/or illness, suicidal persons often want to punish those they are leaving behind to deal with the emotional fallout.

A planned and voluntary walkaway would be a rational act by a rational and calculating person.

And, so far as I know, no other Gricar walked away, as a "rational act by a rational and calculating person." Did it ever occur to you that, if RFG walked away, he wasn't attempting to "make it look like suicide?" He moved the car further away from the river.

[J. J. in Phila]

CB, the spywear actually has to be loaded on the computer first.

[Politigal]

on Wiley's good character...perhaps you've forgotten the link I posted a long time ago from the July 1991 Cleveland paper:

SEAMY UNTOLD STORY SURFACES IN HINCKLEY CHIEF'S DISAPPEARANCE...

[2-B]

They refer to "good character."

I set up a two-part parameter, JJ. A person of good character WITH a family history of a missing person. Without both parts, neither fits.

And, so far as I know, no other Gricar walked away, as a "rational act by a rational and calculating person." Did it ever occur to you that, if RFG walked away, he wasn't attempting to "make it look like suicide?" He moved the car further away from the river.

Irrelevant, since for ten days Roy Gricar was a MISSING PERSON and his brother Ray Gricar was on the scene for that helping the family through the period when Roy was missing and unaccounted for.

[2-B]

on Wiley's good character...perhaps you've forgotten the link I posted a long time ago from the July 1991 Cleveland paper:

SEAMY UNTOLD STORY SURFACES IN HINCKLEY CHIEF'S DISAPPEARANCE...

Thanks, Pgal. I was going to mention something about vague memories of Wiley's not so sterling character, but the Carsey and Wiley examples were so far off the mark anyway . . .

[J. J. in Phila]

on Wiley's good character...perhaps you've forgotten the link I posted a long time ago from the July 1991 Cleveland paper:

SEAMY UNTOLD STORY SURFACES IN HINCKLEY CHIEF'S DISAPPEARANCE...


I think the "untold" story was that he had a girlfriend, which was known.

[nittany90]

When Rays laptop went missing why didn't the FBI use this tecnology to track anything on it?
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/fbi-spyware-pro

Also S1 do you know what contractor group was doing work at the SOS at the time of disappearance? Also do you know what contractor group worked on the I-99 roads?

CB -- We're not sure that they didn't try. It appears, from the article, that in order to "sneak" the CIPAV onto the machine (in order to track its usage), it would require participation from both ends (the FBI and the user of Gricar's laptop). Maybe they tried it, but couldn't entice the user to "play" (for a myriad of reasons)?? It's also a good possibility that using it was never even a thought.

(snipped from your link)

The documents shed some light on how the FBI sneaks the CIPAV onto a target’s machine, hinting that the bureau may be using one or more web browser vulnerabilities. In several of the cases outlined, the FBI hosted the CIPAV on a website, and tricked the target into clicking on a link. That’s what happened in the Washington case, according to a formerly-secret planning document for the 2007 operation. "The CIPAV will be deployed via a Uniform Resource Locator (URL) address posted to the subject’s private chat room on MySpace.com."

[Politigal]

I think the "untold" story was that he had a girlfriend, which was known.

nope...it dealt with pornography

[Politigal]

Can't get to the 1991 article noted by Politigal.

Can get to two from 1993 that cite pornography.


WHEN DEATH ISN'T THE END OF A LIFE Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio) November 18, 1993 Thursday, FINAL / ALL

. . . . .

The most intriguing possibility involved the revelation several years after the disappearance that, in addition to mysteries, Wiley enjoyed writing extremely graphic pornography, copies of which had fallen into the hands of subordinates in the Hinckley Township Police Department. Some speculate that fear of disclosure of this embarrassing information led him to run.

. . . . . .
______________________

HINCKLEY EX-CHIEF IS DECLARED DEAD Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio) November 16, 1993 Tuesday, FINAL / MEDINA / SUMMIT

. . . . . .

At the time [1985], police said Wiley appeared to have been fed up with his personal and professional life and disappeared to start a new life. More recently, information surfaced that Wiley was writing hard-core pornography in his office at the Hinckley Police Department, including detailed descriptions of acts of incest and alleged sex acts involving him and female members of a Medina church.

. . . . . .
______________

The November 18, 1993, article is actually kind of interesting. Throughout the article, if one substitutes "Gricar" for "Wiley" many of the descriptions match what we see today - creating a new identity is easy to do for someone with Wiley's background; Mel was a quiet guy; I knew him, but I didn't know him well; nobody was his personal friend; Wiley wasn't given to sharing secrets; etc.

Sorry I can't post a link, the articles are on Lexis. Can't copy and paste them either - copywrite laws and all. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Thx Brett..and actually you can access the 1991 article on newslibrary.com - search in OH - keywords Mel Wiley pornography...but you have to pay $2.95 to get it.

[nittany90]

Thanks, OOB. Based upon the information posted in the '93 article, I have removed Wiley from the "good character column" in which Gricar currently resides, to "at-the-very-least-man-with-porn-obsessed-thoughts questionable character column".

[2-B]

My thanks also, OOB. Yep, I'd say that pretty much puts ol' Mel Wiley into the questionable character column.

[sherrijean981]

This is for all...but especially for SJ. I did not see a single Gricar letter to the editor published in the CDT this month. But I saw where the CDT recently ran a whole page of letters by people who were not from Centre County. One could hope the CDT might do that again!

S1, did you see the comment section? The one man who has the beautiful coat on? Were we not discussing him on the thread at one time? A writer? JJ, you remember this guy, we commented on his coat.

Are you asking me to write a letter to the CDT?

This year I bypassed the Centre County Courthouse and sent my memorial to TG instead.

Remember when Carla Baron and her friends were in Lewisburg? Wasn't it John Edwards who was seeing RG being wrapped in a tarp or blanket, put in the trunk of the car, went to an area where they had to go around a metal gate? Going to the top and throwing the body over? The gate going to the Shikellemy lookout reminded me of that show. Wonder if that was where they filmed it? Did anyone check the rocky side to see if a body could have disappeared in a crack/crevass above Rt 11?

[nittany90]

Actually, I think Politigal deserves the thanks for bringing it up in the first place. I just followed up.

And I deserve some sort of incredibly heinous punishment for "copywrite."

Thanks PG!

And OOB -- it did fit!!! :laugh:

[Serendipitous1]

S1, did you see the comment section? The one man who has the beautiful coat on? Were we not discussing him on the thread at one time? A writer? JJ, you remember this guy, we commented on his coat.That is the guy who wrote the novel in 2006, inspired in part by the Gricar disappearance. He published a sequel to it last year.
Are you asking me to write a letter to the CDT? This year I bypassed the Centre County Courthouse and sent my memorial to TG instead.I remember you were peeved when the CDT put you off...being out of county. I guess any of us can write a letter to the editor...and maybe now, even get it published.
Remember when Carla Baron and her friends were in Lewisburg? Wasn't it John Edwards who was seeing RG being wrapped in a tarp or blanket, put in the trunk of the car, went to an area where they had to go around a metal gate? Going to the top and throwing the body over? The gate going to the Shikellemy lookout reminded me of that show. Wonder if that was where they filmed it? Did anyone check the rocky side to see if a body could have disappeared in a crack/crevass above Rt 11?I think you may have your psychics and stories mixed up. Anyway, I do not recall anyone but tG mentioning a search of the lookout area...and that was at the bottom. Other than by rappelling, I would think only a helicopter could get a close look at the face of that precipice.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks for the insight nittany!!! I am enjoying reading your posts, indeed you are fresh eyes!

I think it's important to take a look at contractors, only because its apparent that one witness saw the construction worker leaning into RG's car window. (Im not speaking of Carla Barons pickings) It could explain the ash that was found. It also could be a clue as to why RG went there. Being that the contractor didn't come forward to say he spoke to RG shows me that there is more to that. I think LE should focus on who was the contractors working at the SOS that day.

Also when RG was seen moving his car around in the parking lot does it not make sense he was trying to get a better view of the SOS and the construction workers?

It might indicate his meeting was with one of the workers. Question is why though? I do have some words to go by but they don't make sense to me. Something like " I come to look" then someone says "It makes no sense you told us you want to run with us". Okay I know that's weird but I didn't say it. So now you see why I think the contractor is a important part of this. Lets put it this way I don't think the contractor was just a contractor but into something more than just construction. Could he of been a Cia operative or a FBI agent or part of Ice, drug task force, a informant.

[Politigal]

just thinking of a short list of people who police should have questioned and/or polygraphed in this case --

Girlfriend -
Patty Fornicola
Daughter-
Lara Gricar
Exwives-
Barbara
Emma
Nephews-
Tony Gricar & brothers
Friends -
Stephen Sloane
Ed Walker
Staff-
Everyone who worked for him at the DA's office (including clerical)
Patty's friends/neighbors/relatives-
Faith Burger & ?
Tom Fornicola

IMO

[nittany90]

just thinking of a short list of people who police should have questioned and/or polygraphed in this case --

Girlfriend -
Patty Fornicola
Daughter-
Lara Gricar
Exwives-
Barbara
Emma
Nephews-
Tony Gricar & brothers
Friends -
Stephen Sloane
Ed Walker
Staff-
Everyone who worked for him at the DA's office (including clerical)
Patty's friends/neighbors/relatives-
Faith Burger & ?
Tom Fornicola

IMO

Who is Faith Burger? Is she a former gf? What do we know about her?

[Politigal]

Who is Faith Burger? Is she a former gf? What do we know about her?

She is Patty's neighbor and also the person who filled Patty's vacancy as a Victim's Advocate when Patty moved to the clerical position.

IMO

[nittany90]

She is Patty's neighbor and also the person who filled Patty's vacancy as a Victim's Advocate when Patty moved to the clerical position.

IMO

Thanks, Politigal. What is known about the nurse in Harrisburg? Was she an old girlfriend?

[nittany90]

Can someone tell me when "a hard drive found in the River", officially morphed into "Ray's hard drive that was missing from his laptop"? Links please (if they exist).

From what I can track down, seems like it was just "assumed" to be Ray's. I recall comments like, "if it walks like a duck.....". I know it was the same make/model that would be used in Gricar's laptop, but, I also remember that at one point, it was determined to be so damaged, that it couldn't be definitively proven to be Gricar's. (Source: CDT, December 9, 2005) I also know that despite the Kroll evaluation (argubly the "best of the best"), the evaluators weren't even able to determine whether or not the hard drive was erased prior to being thrown in the River. (Source: Evening Sun, September 23, 2008).

So -- sometime between when LE publicly said it couldn't be proven to be Gricar's, it was proven to be the missing hard drive from Gricar's recovered laptop and that Gricar used software to erase the laptop's hard drive.

Hmmm...what's missing here???

[sherrijean981]

That is the guy who wrote the novel in 2006, inspired in part by the Gricar disappearance. He published a sequel to it last year.
I remember you were peeved when the CDT put you off...being out of county. I guess any of us can write a letter to the editor...and maybe now, even get it published.
I think you may have your psychics and stories mixed up. Anyway, I do not recall anyone but tG mentioning a search of the lookout area...and that was at the bottom. Other than by rappelling, I would think only a helicopter could get a close look at the face of that precipice.


It was on the show Haunting Evidence, John Edwards was sitting at a table in the SOS (funny he didn't "see" RG in that area) with a LE officer. He had a map in front of him, describing men putting RG in a car and taking him to an area where they went around the gate and threw him over a bank. The officer said he knows where it could be and they show him at the overlook, above the river. It was supposed to be Shikellemy Park.

When we turned off Rt 11 to go to the Shikellemy Lookout, there was a very large cave opening on the right. My daughter ask me if I wanted to stop, but stupid me said no. I am clostrophobic and could not go in a cave, no matter how bad I wanted to. Point of the story, I wonder if anyone else checked that cave out?

[sherrijean981]

just thinking of a short list of people who police should have questioned and/or polygraphed in this case --

Girlfriend -
Patty Fornicola
Daughter-
Lara Gricar
Exwives-
Barbara
Emma
Nephews-
Tony Gricar & brothers
Friends -
Stephen Sloane
Ed Walker
Staff-
Everyone who worked for him at the DA's office (including clerical)
Patty's friends/neighbors/relatives-
Faith Burger & ?
Tom Fornicola

IMO

Maybe other Centre County Government employees? BJL's mother, who is supposed to work in one of the offices.

Terrie Leathers, BJL's ex-wife, who I see is in the CDT news recently for DUI's, and Joe Leathers. In the beginning there were a issues with the family.

[sherrijean981]

Thanks, Politigal. What is known about the nurse in Harrisburg? Was she an old girlfriend?


Is the nurse still in Harrisburg? Could there be any at Geisinger, Danville, male or female?

[nittany90]

Maybe other Centre County Government employees? BJL's mother, who is supposed to work in one of the offices.

Terrie Leathers, BJL's ex-wife, who I see is in the CDT news recently for DUI's, and Joe Leathers. In the beginning there were a issues with the family.

I hope they questioned everyone around BJL -- the circumstances/timing surrounding his suicide were just too bizarre to have skipped.

All I ever read was that LE investigated BJL, and dismissed him as a suspect. I never read anything about LE questioning the family.

[sherrijean981]

I hope they questioned everyone around BJL -- the circumstances/timing surrounding his suicide were just too bizarre to have skipped.

All I ever read was that LE investigated BJL, and dismissed him as a suspect. I never read anything about LE questioning the family.


From the link I was given of the Centre County data on TL's cases, she has a BIG problem. Numerous arrests. Is she drinking because she has a deep secret, missing her ex, hiding something or was she always a drinker? It bothers me BJL died near her home.

[sherrijean981]

I have to say I am enjoying reading the posts of Nittany90 and 2B. View points from new eyes and very well researched.
Thank you both for your input.

[Politigal]

an interesting article today about some deleted emails

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/05/01/attorney_requests_deleted_emai.aspx

Both Ferron and McElrath have said these e-mails have been deleted, Shubin said in the motion.

Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira did not return calls seeking comment as of press time Thursday.

[nittany90]

I have to say I am enjoying reading the posts of Nittany90 and 2B. View points from new eyes and very well researched.
Thank you both for your input.

Thank you, sherrijean. :blushing: And I have to say that I admire the intense dedication of the many long-time posters. Your unwavering dedication to discovering "the truth" is truly remarkable.

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks, Politigal. What is known about the nurse in Harrisburg? Was she an old girlfriend?

Nurse and Harrisburg woman are two different people.

Everything I've heard about BJL seems to be a dead end (no pun intended).

[Serendipitous1]

Everything you wanted to know about the Mifflin Streak (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/05/01/streak_raises_eyebrows_keeps_t.aspx)...and it is about to happen again. After last year's legal manuvering, it will be interesting to 'observe' LE reaction this (election) year. Will campus police make arrests? Will one or more 'innocent bystanders' be found (this time) who are 'statutorily offended'...forcing the DA to prosecute these 'lewd' young men/women? Will the DA choose to prosecute them? Stay tuned.

[Serendipitous1]

What a difference an election year makes...No arrests at annual Mifflin Streak (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/05/04/no_arrests_at_annual_mifflin_s.aspx)

[nittany90]

Another river in PA gives up a body a month after claiming it.

http://www.centredaily.com/126/story/1270934.html

At least one family has closure. Sad, but yet another piece of evidence supporting the fact that if it goes in, it eventually comes out.

[Politigal]

just an off the wall question

If Zaccagni didn't question or speak with RG's good friend Stephen Sloane...how did it come about for Sloane to meet with the PSP profiler at Milton in the initial stage of the case?

[J. J. in Phila]

just an off the wall question

If Zaccagni didn't question or speak with RG's good friend Stephen Sloane...how did it come about for Sloane to meet with the PSP profiler at Milton in the initial stage of the case?

The PSP did the interviews. DZ was not a PSP trooper.

[2-B]

The PSP did the interviews. DZ was not a PSP trooper.

I don't think that answers Pgal's question. I believe she wants to know how the connection was made between the PSP profiler and SS since DZ reportedly did not speak with SS.

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't think that answers Pgal's question. I believe she wants to know how the connection was made between the PSP profiler and SS since DZ reportedly did not speak with SS.

Two possibilities:

1. They spoke to all the staff.

2. They asked who RFG's friends were (or read it in the paper).

[nittany90]

Two possibilities:

1. They spoke to all the staff.

2. They asked who RFG's friends were (or read it in the paper).

The PSP found it important enough to interview SS in the first few hours, but BPD didn't see the need, ever.

Hmmmmm....

[Politigal]

I'm curious....did the profiler interview someone other than Fornicola and Sloane?

I don't recall Tony mentioning that he or Lara were interviewed by the profiler.

[J. J. in Phila]

The PSP found it important enough to interview SS in the first few hours, but BPD didn't see the need, ever.

Hmmmmm....

They did contact staff members, according to what they told JKA.

[nittany90]

They did contact staff members, according to what they told JKA.

I'm talking specifically about SS -- arguably, one of his best friends. According to DZ's own words, SS wasn't interviewed by BPD (at least not by May 13, 2006), because it might lead them toward a theory????????:confused:

(snipped)

Zaccagni said conducting interviews of Sloane, Walker and a bevy of county workers likely would yield nothing. "If my chief wants me to go and do that, I have no problem with doing that," Zaccagni said. "It may be worthwhile, it may not be. But I really don't have an answer to that. It could be a lot of time to lead us nowhere. It could provide us a real lead. "But it more likely would just lead us toward a theory," he said. (Source: CDT, May 13, 2006)

[Politigal]

In Arnold's googlepages she wrote about 1 PSP trooper being with police that first weekend.

But I was more curious about the PSP profiler at Milton and how it was determined who he/she would interview. It was reported that Fornicola and Sloane were interviewed but who else? And how did those 2 get chosen for the profile? Obviously, Fornicola went there when the car was located in Lewisburg, and it was returned to her on Sunday (also noted in JKA's googlepages.) Did Sloane also travel there when the car was discovered?

[2-B]

In Arnold's googlepages she wrote about 1 PSP trooper being with police that first weekend.

But I was more curious about the PSP profiler at Milton and how it was determined who he/she would interview. It was reported that Fornicola and Sloane were interviewed but who else? And how did those 2 get chosen for the profile? Obviously, Fornicola went there when the car was located in Lewisburg, and it was returned to her on Sunday (also noted in JKA's googlepages.) Did Sloane also travel there when the car was discovered?

Going on memory here, but I always thought the PSP profiler interviewer's primary purpose on Sunday was to put together a character profile of RG. Could explain why PF and SS were chosen, as live-in girlfriend and reported best friend. I suppose the argument could be made those two would have insight as to RG's recent frame of mind, actions, words, etc. OTOH, PF had known RG for what I perceive to be a relatively brief time compared to LG, TG, and others--not sure why some with a longer relationship with RG weren't also interviewed.

[Politigal]

and just for the Crockpot --

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/partii:somecorequestions

The closest this investigation has come to S.O.P. was probably on the first Saturday, when apparently there were state police forensics people called in to look at the vehicle. Even there, search dogs were not brought in until at least 18 hours after the vehicle was discovered, removed from where it had been found and by report subjected to forensic examination.

[2-B]

and just for the Crockpot --

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/partii:somecorequestions

The closest this investigation has come to S.O.P. was probably on the first Saturday, when apparently there were state police forensics people called in to look at the vehicle. Even there, search dogs were not brought in until at least 18 hours after the vehicle was discovered, removed from where it had been found and by report subjected to forensic examination.

That certainly clears up any media-created confusion over whether the car was there when the dogs were brought in.

As for the 18-hour lapse before the dogs came in, that does not concern me.

The primary voice on this board arguing that the scent would somehow reach its expiration date at 48 hours has never understood the difference between tracking dogs and trailing dogs. The FBI's human scent evidence division makes this distinction quite clearly: trailing dogs don't work from footprint to footprint but from diffuse body scent trail, and that trail can last for weeks or months.

[nittany90]

Going on memory here, but I always thought the PSP profiler interviewer's primary purpose on Sunday was to put together a character profile of RG. Could explain why PF and SS were chosen, as live-in girlfriend and reported best friend. I suppose the argument could be made those two would have insight as to RG's recent frame of mind, actions, words, etc. OTOH, PF had known RG for what I perceive to be a relatively brief time compared to LG, TG, and others--not sure why some with a longer relationship with RG weren't also interviewed.

As if often the case 2-B, I share your impressions and your questions. I also wonder what the PSP profiler gleaned from those conversations with PF and SS that led them to the early conclusion that suicide was "likely"?

[Politigal]

That certainly clears up any media-created confusion over whether the car was there when the dogs were brought in.

As for the 18-hour lapse before the dogs came in, that does not concern me.

The primary voice on this board arguing that the scent would somehow reach its expiration date at 48 hours has never understood the difference between tracking dogs and trailing dogs. The FBI's human scent evidence division makes this distinction quite clearly: trailing dogs don't work from footprint to footprint but from diffuse body scent trail, and that trail can last for weeks or months.

It seems pretty obvious to me...the dog found Gricar's scent left from the car...and lost it from where the car was towed away.

[2-B]

As if often the case 2-B, I share your impressions and your questions. I also wonder what the PSP profiler gleaned from those conversations with PF and SS that led them to the early conclusion that suicide was "likely"?

Especially since SS seems to waver between saying his friend was capable of pulling off a walkaway and thinking his friend is dead--and since PF adopted a stance of "waiting as long" as it would take for RG to return. The profiler's conclusion regarding suicide has always puzzled me.

[Politigal]

I vaguely recall seeing a picture of the flat bed tow trailer/truck in the lot at the Street of Shoppes. Or did I dream that?

[Politigal]

Who are we? :mellow:

...this small group of strange (but mostly lovable) people who are so darned interested in this case.:mellow:

[nittany90]

I vaguely recall seeing a picture of the flat bed tow trailer/truck in the lot at the Street of Shoppes. Or did I dream that?

P'gal
I don't remember ever seeing the picture you're referring to, but seems to tug something in my memory, too. I remember reading a post from a local who was on his way to Walmart that day, and saw a gathering of LE in the empty lot. If memory serves me correctly, I think that poster had heard about Gricar's disappearance, his Mini being found, and on a hunch, drove by the PSP station in Milton. There, IIRC, he saw the Mini on a flat bed trailer in the PSP lot. I think he posted photos. I remember reading the post, but the photos were no longer viewable at that time, so I don't know what the photos were.
And, I don't even remember what site he posted on -- may have been the WS site.
Is this, perhaps, the photo you remember seeing? Or, am I completely losing it? :confused:

[2-B]

The photos were on Free Republic, N90. I saw them only once, long ago, before they disappeared. Wish now that I'd captured them before they disappeared as I don't have a clear memory of them, except that one was the SOS lot.

I tend to think the Mini on the flatbed played less of role in scent distribution than the doors of the Mini being opened in the lot did, however.

When dogs are used to drop trail a scent from a moving vehicle, the car is running and the ventilation system is operating, which helps move the scent picture from inside the car to the outside. With the Mini on the flatbed and not running, we'd have only the jostling of the vehicle as it was moved onto the flatbed and as it was moved out of the lot working on a non-operating ventilation system. This would produce less scent for the dogs to work on than in a normal drop trail situation. But I tend to think if the dogs had been working that scent, they would have followed the path of the flatbed, out of the lot.

Instead, I think they were working the scent plume created when the car doors were opened. The car was supposedly located between 5:30 and 6:30, and by the time LE would have been there, wind speeds were at approximately 3.5 mph. Overnight humidity on the 16th had been high, and prior to the dogs working on the 17th, the winds had been between 3.5 mph and 6.9 mph. Winds can push scent, and humidity can make it stick. Put the weather picture together with what's been drawn in the media regarding the dog's behavior at the scene, and to me, RG getting into another car is only one "might possibly" explanation. The other quite plausible explanation is that they simply worked the scent from the car when the doors were opened. MOO.

[Politigal]

Happy Mom's Day!

I've got grilled chicken breasts, fried okra, sliced sweet Vidalia onions, cherry tomatoes & cucumbers, sweet white corn, fresh green beans, and potatoes.

Ya'll come :)

[nittany90]

Happy Mom's Day!

I've got grilled chicken breasts, fried okra, sliced sweet Vidalia onions, cherry tomatoes & cucumbers, sweet white corn, fresh green beans, and potatoes.

Ya'll come :)

Mmmmm...I'm on my way to Texas! :smile:

[Serendipitous1]

Mmmmm...I'm on my way to Texas! :smile:Sounds great, doesn't it? But I had a successful grill here as well. And I was here to enjoy it.

RG?...seems he was not around anywhere enjoying anything. And nobody has said why that is yet. Go figure. An open invitation to Ray Gricar: if you are out there, I have tailgates beaten by a mile! And Father's Day is close at hand!!

[2-B]

Sounds great, doesn't it? But I had a successful grill here as well. And I was here to enjoy it.

RG?...seems he was not around anywhere enjoying anything. And nobody has said why that is yet. Go figure. An open invitation to Ray Gricar: if you are out there, I have tailgates beaten by a mile! And Father's Day is close at hand!!

And the likelihood of Ray Gricar being there for Lara this Father's Day? Slim to none in my opinion.

Yet this is what the YITMAMPWT proponents would have you believe, that Ray would deliberately choose not to be there for that (or at the very least, not be on the other end of the phone line for her Father's Day call from the left coast).

Motive not important, they say. We can't get into Gricar's head. Anyway, Lara's grown. She's independent. He doesn't owe her or his girlfriend or any ex-wife or any grown nephew anything. Free man, and all. Probably just wants to be a legend in his own mind. Taunt LE. Get people to write about him on message boards and in blogs. His own little cottage industry.

Anyone know of any cases where someone who respected the law as much as Ray Gricar walked away to taunt the law? (Not Wiley--he had plenty of reasons for walking that had nothing to do with taunting the law.) Where someone as private as Ray Gricar walked away with the sole motive of becoming a legend?

Just asking.

[sherrijean981]

After 4 years you are asking that? :rolleyes:
I haven't ever questioned it, knowing that our hearts are in it for the man who is missing. But I like what you said "mostly lovable) :wub:

[Cloudbuster]

I hope all you mom's had a nice Mothers Day! My child must hate me lol I didn't even get a call, but yet the newphew I raised 6 years did call. Go figure. Maybe S1 I can make it to your grill out for Fathers day lol.:tongueside:

[nittany90]

And the likelihood of Ray Gricar being there for Lara this Father's Day? Slim to none in my opinion.

Yet this is what the YITMAMPWT proponents would have you believe, that Ray would deliberately choose not to be there for that (or at the very least, not be on the other end of the phone line for her Father's Day call from the left coast).

Motive not important, they say. We can't get into Gricar's head. Anyway, Lara's grown. She's independent. He doesn't owe her or his girlfriend or any ex-wife or any grown nephew anything. Free man, and all. Probably just wants to be a legend in his own mind. Taunt LE. Get people to write about him on message boards and in blogs. His own little cottage industry.

Anyone know of any cases where someone who respected the law as much as Ray Gricar walked away to taunt the law? (Not Wiley--he had plenty of reasons for walking that had nothing to do with taunting the law.) Where someone as private as Ray Gricar walked away with the sole motive of becoming a legend?

Just asking.


I can't find one, 2-B. Not one.
And you have touched upon the reason I'm here. I do NOT believe that a man, with Gricar's respect for the law and for his family, would voluntarily and callously walkaway in such a manner. It just does not fit.
And I am reminded of the words spoken by possibly, the most infamous defense attorney in recent history.
"If it does not fit, you must acquit".
Until and if more substantial evidence is released, I will continue to give Gricar the respect and benefit of the doubt that he deserves.

IMO, of course.

[gstickley]

I can't find one, 2-B. Not one.
And you have touched upon the reason I'm here. I do NOT believe that a man, with Gricar's respect for the law and for his family, would voluntarily and callously walkaway in such a manner. It just does not fit.
And I am reminded of the words spoken by possibly, the most infamous defense attorney in recent history.
"If it does not fit, you must acquit".
Until and if more substantial evidence is released, I will continue to give Gricar the respect and benefit of the doubt that he deserves.

IMO, of course.

Good morning, N90. Thought I'd written this too, but I see you've been in my head again!!!

[Politigal]

I recently emailed RG's good friend Stephen Sloane for his thoughts on the disappearance, and he wrote that Lara Gricar was RG's "one true love" in his life.

IMO, I don't believe for one second that RG would walk away from his "one true love," putting her through the torture she's experienced.

[nittany90]

Good morning, N90. Thought I'd written this too, but I see you've been in my head again!!!

Hi gs! Lordy, I hope I'm not lifting your prior posts that are stuck in the back of mind, because we think along the same planes so often. If I am, I truly apologize. :blushing:

[gstickley]

Hi gs! Lordy, I hope I'm not lifting your prior posts that are stuck in the back of mind, because we think along the same planes so often. If I am, I truly apologize. :blushing:

You can lift my posts anytime you want, but you haven't so far. We just think alike!!! :biggrin:

[nittany90]

You can lift my posts anytime you want, but you haven't so far. We just think alike!!! :biggrin:

Oh, good! :smile:

[Politigal]

I'd be curious to know who authorized the Wikipedia update on Ray Gricar saying that foul play is unlikely now due to the computer searches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

[2-B]

I'd be curious to know who authorized the Wikipedia update on Ray Gricar saying that foul play is unlikely now due to the computer searches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

Very interesting.

I've always pointed out the dangers of wikipedia as a source, and that was confirmed in a little blurb I heard on the radio the other night. Wish I could remember the specifics.

Story went something like this. Someone deliberately put up fake "quotes" from a public person on wiki. That person died. Mainstream media picked up the quotes from wiki and used them in articles, replicating the fake quotes which had never been said by this person.

Now we've apparently got someone either taking the "Foul Play Lessened" headline at face value and carelessly putting it up on wiki, or someone trying to "shape" the public perception even further. . . .

[Politigal]

Very interesting.

I've always pointed out the dangers of wikipedia as a source, and that was confirmed in a little blurb I heard on the radio the other night. Wish I could remember the specifics.

Story went something like this. Someone deliberately put up fake "quotes" from a public person on wiki. That person died. Mainstream media picked up the quotes from wiki and used them in articles, replicating the fake quotes which had never been said by this person.

Now we've apparently got someone either taking the "Foul Play Lessened" headline at face value and carelessly putting it up on wiki, or someone trying to "shape" the public perception even further. . . .

ABC News did a special on the problems with Wikipedia and how basically anyone can contribute/edit etc...

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/What-to-do-with-Wikipedia/yRjma6_0skS6f3tJTfWLjw.cspx?rss=794

[2-B]

ABC News did a special on the problems with Wikipedia and how basically anyone can contribute/edit etc...

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/What-to-do-with-Wikipedia/yRjma6_0skS6f3tJTfWLjw.cspx?rss=794

Thanks for the link, Pgal. Someone ambitious among us should consider attempting this:

And if you see any inaccuracies in an article, register on Wikipedia and change the errors, but make sure you include your external reference for those who come behind you!

It would involve trying to point to subtle implications from quotes in various news articles and trying to draw inferences from them, though--not an easy task. Did the wiki article actually say that foul play is "unlikely" now? (Too lazy to open it up at the moment.)

[nittany90]

I'd be curious to know who authorized the Wikipedia update on Ray Gricar saying that foul play is unlikely now due to the computer searches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

A little OT, but only a little.

Do ya'll constantly find yourself defending Gricar's memory by pointing out (evidence, facts or otherwise) why voluntary disappearance is not reasonable?

I ask, because I just had a conversation with a fairly high-ranking, respected member of local government, and found myself repeatedly defending Gricar's memory and honor. This person, obviously sucked in by the media reports of the case, offered the old weathered standbys to support their hypothesis, to which I offered counter-arguments.

If I hear one more time, that since Roy committed suicide, that obviously means that Ray was more inclined to follow in his footsteps, I think I'm going to scream. I could rattle off a few more of the old standbys, but I'm sure you've heard them all.

I'm doing my best to change public opinion, to enlighten them so to speak, one person at a time.

I don't know if I had any impact on the person's viewpoint, but at least I tried. :confused:

[Politigal]

Thanks for the link, Pgal. Someone ambitious among us should consider attempting this:

And if you see any inaccuracies in an article, register on Wikipedia and change the errors, but make sure you include your external reference for those who come behind you!

It would involve trying to point to subtle implications from quotes in various news articles and trying to draw inferences from them, though--not an easy task. Did the wiki article actually say that foul play is "unlikely" now? (Too lazy to open it up at the moment.)

this is what it says:

this new evidence seems to suggest that foul play was unlikely.

[2-B]

A little OT, but only a little.

Do ya'll constantly find yourself defending Gricar's memory by pointing out (evidence, facts or otherwise) why voluntary disappearance is not reasonable?



Not so much offline. But my offline Gricar conversations tend to be with highly media savvy folks who aren't easily swayed by superficial sound bites.

Online, it's been an ongoing and repetitive task.

[Politigal]

A little OT, but only a little.

Do ya'll constantly find yourself defending Gricar's memory by pointing out (evidence, facts or otherwise) why voluntary disappearance is not reasonable?

I ask, because I just had a conversation with a fairly high-ranking, respected member of local government, and found myself repeatedly defending Gricar's memory and honor. This person, obviously sucked in by the media reports of the case, offered the old weathered standbys to support their hypothesis, to which I offered counter-arguments.

If I hear one more time, that since Roy committed suicide, that obviously means that Ray was more inclined to follow in his footsteps, I think I'm going to scream. I could rattle off a few more of the old standbys, but I'm sure you've heard them all.

I'm doing my best to change public opinion, to enlighten them so to speak, one person at a time.

I don't know if I had any impact on the person's viewpoint, but at least I tried. :confused:

Obviously, it would be wonderful if Gricar wasn't a victim of a crime...and was alive & well. But I just don't feel that's the case. And everything that's been put out there so far seems to suggest something fishy has gone on from day one.....police not initially investigating it as a possible crime, the conflicts of interest, the contradictory reports from law enforcement, and now this recent "push" that Gricar had something to hide & was trying to destroy the laptop (and not just erase it for retirement) just really really bugs me, because I just don't feel that they can really prove he was the one who did those computer searches.

IMO, I think it just boils down to an extremely lousy investigation, and they're trying to save face, and just declare that he walked away.

[2-B]

this is what it says:

this new evidence seems to suggest that foul play was unlikely.

The "unlikely" is just not what MR said. He said the computer searches in and of themselves tended to focus on walkaway or suicide but did not eliminate foul play.

That's how easily things get twisted.

[nittany90]

Not so much offline. But my offline Gricar conversations tend to be with highly media savvy folks who aren't easily swayed by superficial sound bites.

Online, it's been an ongoing and repetitive task.

Dare you say, "Sisyphean?" :wink:

[2-B]

Dare you say, "Sisyphean?" :wink:

Absolutely. :wink:

[gstickley]

ABC News did a special on the problems with Wikipedia and how basically anyone can contribute/edit etc...

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/What-to-do-with-Wikipedia/yRjma6_0skS6f3tJTfWLjw.cspx?rss=794


Today's headlines:

"Irish student hoaxes world's media with fake quote

Irish student hoaxes world's media with florid but phony quote from dead French composer

Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press Writer
On Monday May 11, 2009, 12:07 pm EDT

DUBLIN (AP) -- When Dublin university student Shane Fitzgerald posted a poetic but phony quote on Wikipedia, he was testing how our globalized, increasingly Internet-dependent media was upholding accuracy and accountability in an age of instant news.

His report card: Wikipedia passed. Journalism flunked.
(snip)

Guardian article on controversy, http://tinyurl.com/djqd8w

Soundtrack Geek blog on Jarre, http://tinyurl.com/d527zh

Wikipedia site criticizing itself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism--of--Wikipedia"

[Serendipitous1]

Interesting timing (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=4465)(< link): PennDOT licensing procedures prior to March 2005, and changes after March 2005.

[Politigal]

I finally got my activation from Freerepublic and I've pm'd Tomkat to see if he still has his Lewisburg photos.

[Politigal]

looking thru old articles again...Dixon said this

http://tinyurl.com/qntbmy

"He's been down to Lewisburg many times," Dixon said at the press conference

Why then didn't Patty or law enforcement think to look there after Gricar called from 192???

[Politigal]

per this old article, Lee Falke was the man who influenced RG and spurred him to attend law school

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1998/02/02-06-98tdc/02-06-98d01-015.asp

http://www.falkedunphy.com/LeeFalke.asp

[day2day]

looking thru old articles again...Dixon said this

http://tinyurl.com/qntbmy

"He's been down to Lewisburg many times," Dixon said at the press conference

Why then didn't Patty or law enforcement think to look there after Gricar called from 192???

I just want to ask why Patty didn't ask where he was going and what time he might be home!!!! Those seem like pretty simple questions to ask your "beloved"!!

[J. J. in Phila]

I just want to ask why Patty didn't ask where he was going and what time he might be home!!!! Those seem like pretty simple questions to ask your "beloved"!!

Because she was never his parole officer.

On 4/14/05, there was never an account that PEF asked where RFG would be. Nobody else at the office did either.

[Politigal]

I just want to ask why Patty didn't ask where he was going and what time he might be home!!!! Those seem like pretty simple questions to ask your "beloved"!!

I completely agree. It just seems that everything that transpired that day was so "abbynormal." :huh:

[2-B]

I just want to ask why Patty didn't ask where he was going and what time he might be home!!!! Those seem like pretty simple questions to ask your "beloved"!!

I find it odd that neither one of them mentioned anything about a possible time he'd be home or what the possible dinner plans might be.

I know we've been over this territory before, but the "not his parole officer" line reflects the thinking of someone who hasn't been in a healthy marriage or live-in relationship, IMO. People in a good relationship take care of each other and observe common courtesy with each other.

Since RG liked to just take off and drive, I can understand PF not asking where he was going. What I can't understand is her not asking or him not offering some sense of when he'd be back and what they'd do about dinner. That's just common courtesy practiced between two people in a couple.

[nittany90]

Because she was never his parole officer.

On 4/14/05, there was never an account that PEF asked where RFG would be. Nobody else at the office did either.

I really wouldn't expect "anyone else at the office" to ask Gricar where he'd be on his day off. That's really none of their business. I would, however, expect his significant other to ask that question. Like 2-B mentioned, it's just common courtesy for one partner to ask another partner when they'd be home, if only to know when to expect him. At the very least, wouldn't PEF want to know if he'd be home in time to make dinner plans that evening??

[nittany90]

I really wouldn't expect "anyone else at the office" to ask Gricar where he'd be on his day off. That's really none of their business. I would, however, expect his significant other to ask that question. Like 2-B mentioned, it's just common courtesy for one partner to ask another partner when they'd be home, if only to know when to expect him. At the very least, wouldn't PEF want to know if he'd be home in time to make dinner plans that evening??

Especially, since according to the link below, Friday nights were their "night" at Gamble Mill Inn. Wouldn't she have wanted to know if he'd be back in time to make their "routine" outing?
(snipped)

"Every Friday, he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

[nittany90]

Just re-reading old articles again.

In response to someone's suggestion that Gricar was "working harder" in the weeks prior to his disappearance....working harder on what? Doesn't sound like it was DA-related, because according to MS, Gricar only had "one to two" approaching trials.

(snipped)
"We did not have to continue or postpone any hearings because of Ray's absence," Smith said. "We've been able to maintain the typical caseload."

If the DA's office could handle the "typical" caseload with no continuances during Gricar's absence (one man short), why would we assume that Gricar would have been working harder in the weeks before his disappearance?

This fits with the confusion I've always had about why he felt it necessary to go in to work, afterhours, for 3 hours the evening before, but then take the next morning off.

Maybe his "work" wasn't work-related. :confused:

[gstickley]

(snip)
Maybe his "work" wasn't work-related. :confused:

Perhaps he just needed some privacy away from home; perhaps things weren't so hunky-dory around the house. Perhaps he needed to make private phone calls (don't think local calls would have been traceable); perhaps he had a Tracfone to make private long distance calls. There are a lot of possiblities for his after-hours in the office & his taking off Fri. AM. Of course, there's always been the possiblity he didn't even go home on Thu. night. (Remember Wedler's sighting in the park.)

[nittany90]

Drug case, not being his to prosecute, but instead to review, would not have fallen on MS as a case to try, since it wasn't RG's to try. Where is the copy of RG's review of the drug case?

I believe it is highly likely that what he was working on at that time was the drug case. I also find it highly likely that he ran into some problems with the case. I also think it highly likely to have been the reason for the irritation, door slamming, mood that has been mentioned. It fits timewise. It fits for using the laptop again out in the field after having been closeted for months. It fits why the case would have been directed back to Centre County, likely by the higher up. It fits as the reason for the lack of evidence being disclosed to the public. All in all, everything seems to fall in line timewise with that review.

JMO

True. The drug case would have on Gricar's plate in the early part of 2005, but wasn't he out of it at least 2 weeks prior to his disappearance? (having been handed over to the SA's office by March 31, 2005, by published reports -- coincidentally, for MM at the SA's office to prosecute.)

If it had been handed over by March 31, 2005, I don't think Gricar would have been spending any more time on that case after the hand-over. After all, it wasn't even his to prosecute. Seems like he would have been spending more time on other cases coming up for trial, like the shaken-baby case, or the death-by-vehicle case.

Heck, for all we know, Gricar might have been working on a case that "disappeared" with his disappearance. One we know absolutely nothing about.

If I was LE, that's one of the first avenues I would have explored. Assuming there was any trail left after his disappearance.

[2-B]

My opinion only, but somewhere along the line I believe Ray working hard (thus in part explaining his tiredness in the weeks preceding the disappearance) morphed into Ray working harder than usual right before the disappearance.

Ray's job was a high pressure one with long hours, and every job like that has a natural ebb and flow where some time periods are more of a pressure cooker than others. But I've never been convinced there was anything extraordinary about the workload right before the disappearance, nor am I convinced that his going into the office Thursday night was anything out of the ordinary:


Ray is reported to have been last seen in surveillance footage of the VIP parking lot at the rear of the courthouse on Thursday night, entering around 6 PM and leaving shortly after 9 PM. This would not have been unusual. Ray commonly left the office to go out or home for supper and returned to the office in the evening to work several hours. It usually happened at least several times a week, sometimes more often if he had an appellate brief due or a major trial upcoming. I know that because I was generally also there.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

If he went back into the office several nights a week as a rule and more often with a trial upcoming, can we really read anything specific into the Thursday night office time? I don't want to rain on anyone's theories here, but to me, the Thursday night office visit sounds like Ray being Ray, standard operating procedure.

[Politigal]

My opinion only, but somewhere along the line I believe Ray working hard (thus in part explaining his tiredness in the weeks preceding the disappearance) morphed into Ray working harder than usual right before the disappearance.

Ray's job was a high pressure one with long hours, and every job like that has a natural ebb and flow where some time periods are more of a pressure cooker than others. But I've never been convinced there was anything extraordinary about the workload right before the disappearance, nor am I convinced that his going into the office Thursday night was anything out of the ordinary:


Ray is reported to have been last seen in surveillance footage of the VIP parking lot at the rear of the courthouse on Thursday night, entering around 6 PM and leaving shortly after 9 PM. This would not have been unusual. Ray commonly left the office to go out or home for supper and returned to the office in the evening to work several hours. It usually happened at least several times a week, sometimes more often if he had an appellate brief due or a major trial upcoming. I know that because I was generally also there.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

If he went back into the office several nights a week as a rule and more often with a trial upcoming, can we really read anything specific into the Thursday night office time? I don't want to rain on anyone's theories here, but to me, the Thursday night office visit sounds like Ray being Ray, standard operating procedure.

I agree with you....

it's *Friday* where everything runs amuck & is totally out of character.

[nittany90]

My opinion only, but somewhere along the line I believe Ray working hard (thus in part explaining his tiredness in the weeks preceding the disappearance) morphed into Ray working harder than usual right before the disappearance.

Ray's job was a high pressure one with long hours, and every job like that has a natural ebb and flow where some time periods are more of a pressure cooker than others. But I've never been convinced there was anything extraordinary about the workload right before the disappearance, nor am I convinced that his going into the office Thursday night was anything out of the ordinary:


Ray is reported to have been last seen in surveillance footage of the VIP parking lot at the rear of the courthouse on Thursday night, entering around 6 PM and leaving shortly after 9 PM. This would not have been unusual. Ray commonly left the office to go out or home for supper and returned to the office in the evening to work several hours. It usually happened at least several times a week, sometimes more often if he had an appellate brief due or a major trial upcoming. I know that because I was generally also there.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

If he went back into the office several nights a week as a rule and more often with a trial upcoming, can we really read anything specific into the Thursday night office time? I don't want to rain on anyone's theories here, but to me, the Thursday night office visit sounds like Ray being Ray, standard operating procedure.

2B, just to clarify: I haven't bought into the "working harder" theory, either (which is why I have it in quotes in my first post). I only question if he was, why would we assume he was doing DA work?

And, the fact that Gricar went into work on Thursday night for three hours, doesn't grab me as strange, either. Seems like he worked evenings quite often.

What is odd, to me, is that he went into work for three hours Thursday night, while taking off (at least in the beginning) the next morning.
That seems strange to me.

Generally, if I'm working extra hours on something, I add hours to my normal work schedule, not add hours to one night, and subtract from the next day.

KWIM?

[2-B]

2B, just to clarify: I haven't bought into the "working harder" theory, either (which is why I have it in quotes in my first post). I only question if he was, why would we assume he was doing DA work?

And, the fact that Gricar went into work on Thursday night for three hours, doesn't grab me as strange, either. Seems like he worked evenings quite often.

What is odd, to me, is that he went into work for three hours Thursday night, while taking off (at least in the beginning) the next morning.
That seems strange to me.

Generally, if I'm working extra hours on something, I add hours to my normal work schedule, not add hours to one night, and subtract from the next day.

KWIM?

I knew you were referring to what's been floated on the board as "working harder" vs. "working hard," but thanks for the clarification just the same. And I see what you're saying about about the extra hours/subtraction idea.

What we really need clarified is all the differing press reports, everything from the half day/whole day controversy to the report that he was scheduled to be on vacation both Thursday and Friday . . . to the report that he just woke up Friday and said he was going to play hooky. Which was it, exactly?

[nittany90]

What we really need clarified is all the differing press reports, everything from the half day/whole day controversy to the report that he was scheduled to be on vacation both Thursday and Friday . . . to the report that he just woke up Friday and said he was going to play hooky. Which was it, exactly?[/

Agreed. If we had that information, would possibly erase any of the "oddity" of at least, this equation.

[Politigal]

unrelated to RG...just more "good" ? news in Centre County

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285157.html

a police officer who was subpoenaed April 15 to appear at the trial didn’t show up. Kuebler asked Judge Thomas King Kistler for a continuance and he denied the request.

“This had been the second time a non-jury trial was scheduled,” Klena said. “Kistler said, ‘The commonwealth being unable to present evidence sufficient to convict the defendant — the charges are hereby dismissed.’ ”




what's going on there???

[nittany90]

unrelated to RG...just more "good" ? news in Centre County

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285157.html

a police officer who was subpoenaed April 15 to appear at the trial didn’t show up. Kuebler asked Judge Thomas King Kistler for a continuance and he denied the request.

“This had been the second time a non-jury trial was scheduled,” Klena said. “Kistler said, ‘The commonwealth being unable to present evidence sufficient to convict the defendant — the charges are hereby dismissed.’ ”




what's going on there???

Why wouldn't the judge grant the continuance? Sounds like KK did all she could, by issuing the subpoena to the police officer before the trial. When the police officer failed to show up, she lost all her "evidence" -- his testimony. If the judge had wanted to send a strong warning, he could have issued a bench warrant for the officer's arrest -- contempt of court. Wonder why he didn't show up to testify?

[day2day]

I find it odd that neither one of them mentioned anything about a possible time he'd be home or what the possible dinner plans might be.

I know we've been over this territory before, but the "not his parole officer" line reflects the thinking of someone who hasn't been in a healthy marriage or live-in relationship, IMO. People in a good relationship take care of each other and observe common courtesy with each other.

Since RG liked to just take off and drive, I can understand PF not asking where he was going. What I can't understand is her not asking or him not offering some sense of when he'd be back and what they'd do about dinner. That's just common courtesy practiced between two people in a couple.


I don't know but this has been a problem for me since day 1. We have been told they went out EVERY Friday night-for dinner. We also know that Patty wasn't concerned enough to ask him where he was going or what he was doing. I also believe that after work Patty went to the gym. And after returning home called her brother and then LE. And all of this happens in say 12 hours.

If this same scenario happened to me and someone close to me vanished and I called my sheriffs department -within 12 hours of their vanishing-I can almost bet they would laugh at me. They would be asking the same questions we have asked time and time again. How would she know that he is missing if she didnt know where the heck he was going? He could have been going to Ohio to visit Tony for all she knew?

And yes-I dont see asking a loved one where they are going the act of a parole officer-just a sign that maybe they just really CARE!!


all jmo

[day2day]

I completely agree. It just seems that everything that transpired that day was so "abbynormal." :huh:

Exactly!! Either noone ever really "knew him" or this is one very well thought out plan. I don't think he could have tricked everyone who knew and loved him for 20+ years.

[Politigal]

I don't know but this has been a problem for me since day 1. We have been told they went out EVERY Friday night-for dinner. We also know that Patty wasn't concerned enough to ask him where he was going or what he was doing. I also believe that after work Patty went to the gym. And after returning home called her brother and then LE. And all of this happens in say 12 hours.

If this same scenario happened to me and someone close to me vanished and I called my sheriffs department -within 12 hours of their vanishing-I can almost bet they would laugh at me. They would be asking the same questions we have asked time and time again. How would she know that he is missing if she didnt know where the heck he was going? He could have been going to Ohio to visit Tony for all she knew?

And yes-I dont see asking a loved one where they are going the act of a parole officer-just a sign that maybe they just really CARE!!


all jmo

PF was once described as being "dependent"...and I think she would have been more inquisitive if that's true.

(the posts and the threads are gone now but can be seen on boardreader.com)

http://boardreader.com/s/patty%20fornicola%20dependent.html?d=0&b=0&extended_search=1&q1=patty%20fornicola%20dependent&dateSwitch=0

[Cloudbuster]

You have drug cases not being tried and the person walking. Interesting comment about sweet in the article Pgal posted. Just my opinion but I think RG was seen in a metallic car because he knew he was going to need a car. Where did he get it? The 38 missing cars is my guess , makes sense. Yea I think I know why he needed that car. Yes I believe he was leaving but never made it. He knew that he was about to confront a PERSON dear to him and knew he couldn't keep his car. Legally he knew it wasn't his car. These words come to mind "I stole it and that's what pains". Pondering on what could have been stolen it would have to be the car. He wanted out of something and Im not talking about relationships, although the words "I watched the plan I watched all of it" . Clearly this person wanted out of something and he was betrayed. He was turned on instead of the other party. In other words they crossed him instead of the others. I am unable to rule out drugs, smuggling, a insurance deal, also a wire was brought up and a discussion of phone calls and who pays for what. Just saying it as best I can understand it. Thinking about the laptop, it's funny 2 cops destroyed all those drug records and now Im wondering if RG had any of that information on his laptop.
MOHO

[Politigal]

I've posted before about the case of missing CEO John Glasgow from Little Rock, AR and how similar to this case his is....

Here's the latest news. His family has teamed with Let's Bring Them Home http://www.lbth.org/
to get the word out again about his disappearance, and they've offered a $100,000 reward.

http://findjohnglasgow.com/news.shtml

Maybe Gricar's family should consider this avenue (if they haven't already)

[day2day]

I've posted before about the case of missing CEO John Glasgow from Little Rock, AR and how similar to this case his is....

Here's the latest news. His family has teamed with Let's Bring Them Home http://www.lbth.org/
to get the word out again about his disappearance, and they've offered a $100,000 reward.

http://findjohnglasgow.com/news.shtml

Maybe Gricar's family should consider this avenue (if they haven't already)

Oh gosh Pgal-Mr Gricar's case and Mr. Glasgow's are nearly the same!! Right down to their love of antiques! Gave me the chills I tell ya! Except that someone SAW Mr. Glasgow leaving his home- they could both be the "same" case!
My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Glasgow's family-I pray they find the answers they are seeking.
And I wish there was something someone could do to bring Mr. Gricar's out of the cold file! A large reward would be nice! Someone out there goes to sleep everynight with the secret. :(

jmo

[Politigal]

Oh gosh Pgal-Mr Gricar's case and Mr. Glasgow's are nearly the same!! Right down to their love of antiques! Gave me the chills I tell ya! Except that someone SAW Mr. Glasgow leaving his home- they could both be the "same" case!
My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Glasgow's family-I pray they find the answers they are seeking.
And I wish there was something someone could do to bring Mr. Gricar's out of the cold file! A large reward would be nice! Someone out there goes to sleep everynight with the secret. :(

jmo

Actually, a neighbor only saw Mr Glasgow's *vehicle* leaving the home that morning....they didn't actually see who was driving. They only *assumed* it was Glasgow.

IMO - it wasn't.

[Politigal]

There are so many similarities with the Glasgow case IMO.

Glasgow disappeared in the same clothes he was wearing the night before. He didn't do his usual routine that morning..like taking a shower or making coffee. And he supposedly left his home about 3 to 4 hours earlier than usual.

The neighbor saw his car very early that morning but could not identify the driver.

The car was found several miles away at a state park with Glasgow's cellphone and laptop computer inside. There were *no* identifiable fingerprints found in the car. And search dogs couldn't find his scent away from the car. (a different team of dogs seemed to hit on something at a local waffle house and at a motel, but police found no evidence to corroborate)

I definitely believe it's a copycat case.

[Cloudbuster]

Pgal they really do seem exactly the same. I come accross that case during researches. I bet there is a money trail somewhere in these cases or some knowledge that both RG and JG had that led to their disappearances. There is alot of corruption coming out latly. I call that the great revelations of our time. If something is out there to be found it will, MARK MY WORDS lol. Now where did I hear that saying lol. Interesting about the PMA group who thru Penn State U was funneling $$$. Weirdly one of their research rooms is called the crystal room. They experiment to make night vision ect. Its also weird I had the fascination with crystals during this case. I think I understand that now.

[Serendipitous1]

Hey Cb...do you know what middle name comes between the 'D' and the 'Z'? No, not Sparks. Oh Lord...I apologize for that.

CB's forum seems to have passed by the wayside. Go figure.

I hold my breath each May, wondering if raygricar.com will continue. It went off line last weekend...but has since returned. It is, perhaps, the only remaining contact with RG's family. I miss TG.

For TG...and all of the eclectic saunterers among us... a pertinent reminder (http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showpost.php?p=10901204&postcount=1)...and an updated link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhxIjRO6WjI) to one of my favorite renditions (with all due respect to other 'attempts').

[Politigal]

I didn't realize til today that ada Mark Smith's wife "Chris" Arbutina writes for CDT

http://pd.centredaily.com/sp?aff=1100&keywords=chris+arbutina&image.x=0&image.y=0

[Cloudbuster]

Hey Cb...do you know what middle name comes between the 'D' and the 'Z'? No, not Sparks. Oh Lord...I apologize for that.

CB's forum seems to have passed by the wayside. Go figure.

I hold my breath each May, wondering if raygricar.com will continue. It went off line last weekend...but has since returned. It is, perhaps, the only remaining contact with RG's family. I miss TG.

For TG...and all of the eclectic saunterers among us... a pertinent reminder (http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showpost.php?p=10901204&postcount=1)...and an updated link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhxIjRO6WjI) to one of my favorite renditions (with all due respect to other 'attempts').


Okay you lost me lol. I think you are kidding me? LOL Im sorry the forum I posted on has drifted into the ocean waves. You gotta understand I have to give the sayings the way I understand them. I used to think RG walked away but since that paranormal tape I no longer believe that but I can see why they think it. Maybe one day at your father's day grill out we could go over it together and you might not feel the same either. From my heart Im trying to be loyal to something I do NOT understand but somehow I know it means something. Believe me it displeasures me looking like a loon. On the tape he (it) wanted me to tell the story. It's not easy but by doing so I have had less weird activity. S1 hugs to you for putting up with everything I think you dislike.:wub:

[sherrijean981]

I didn't realize til today that ada Mark Smith's wife "Chris" Arbutina writes for CDT

http://pd.centredaily.com/sp?aff=1100&keywords=chris+arbutina&image.x=0&image.y=0

I worked with Chris Arbutina in Bellefonte at a health care agency when I was temping. She is such a friendly, beautiful person to know. Have since found out one of my doctors is her brother. Small world.

[sherrijean981]

Okay you lost me lol. I think you are kidding me? LOL Im sorry the forum I posted on has drifted into the ocean waves. You gotta understand I have to give the sayings the way I understand them. I used to think RG walked away but since that paranormal tape I no longer believe that but I can see why they think it. Maybe one day at your father's day grill out we could go over it together and you might not feel the same either. From my heart Im trying to be loyal to something I do NOT understand but somehow I know it means something. Believe me it displeasures me looking like a loon. On the tape he (it) wanted me to tell the story. It's not easy but by doing so I have had less weird activity. S1 hugs to you for putting up with everything I think you dislike.:wub:

I thought he was talking about Carla Baron's forum. How many CB's are out there with forums? :confused:

[Cloudbuster]

I thought he was talking about Carla Baron's forum. How many CB's are out there with forums? :confused:

LOL. Not sure what he meant but Sparks is not from Carla Baron, but I thought he meant the unexplained board part 2.

[Serendipitous1]

LOL. Not sure what he meant but Sparks is not from Carla Baron, but I thought he meant the unexplained board part 2.Sorry for the rambling 'odds and ends' post. Cb is you. CB is that 'world renown psychic'...whose message board appears to be 'ghost history'. The Gricar family website was down for a couple of days, but is back up...as well as one of my favs on YouTube.

[day2day]

Sorry for the rambling 'odds and ends' post. Cb is you. CB is that 'world renown psychic'...whose message board appears to be 'ghost history'. The Gricar family website was down for a couple of days, but is back up...as well as one of my favs on YouTube.

Thanks for the video-S1-i love it~ !! Hmm- a forum gone -lol? i wonder if CB saw that coming-?~ :tonguewag::tonguewag:

[Serendipitous1]

Thanks for the video-S1-i love it~ !! Hmm- a forum gone -lol? i wonder if CB saw that coming-?~ :tonguewag::tonguewag:'Prolly' not, day....:biggrinjester:

[Cloudbuster]

I know the Rosa case was moved under Amber alerts but I put links up on that page to tell you more about him. Interesting.

[Politigal]

the pastor had been accused of misconduct....

http://www.standard-journal.com/articles/2009/05/27/news/doc4a1d5e58e694d278014735.txt

(I knew it sounded a bit fishy)

[Serendipitous1]

the pastor had been accused of misconduct....

http://www.standard-journal.com/articles/2009/05/27/news/doc4a1d5e58e694d278014735.txt

(I knew it sounded a bit fishy)The parallels with Gricar:
- a public figure
- some unspecified internal conflict
- no evidence of a crime
- no evidence of suicide

Let the "sightings" begin.

[2-B]

One thing in the article Pgal posted that doesn't make sense to me:

Trooper Matt Burrows, public information officer for the PSP at Milton, says no sightings of Rosa have been reported. But the family statement thanks everyone who has contacted police with information related to possible sightings. Something doesn't square in those two statements, unless Burrows is referring only to the PSP and not to local LE.

IMO, where this differs from the RG case and may indicate a walkaway is that LE quickly learned of the misconduct allegations against Rosa. That's what's typical in a walkaway case--LE quickly discovering motive(s) for someone leaving. Not true in the RG case.

[sherrijean981]

Although 3 people are missing it seems only one had a problem, mentally, and could suggest suggest suicide. The woman.

One "might" have done something wrong and could have been ashamed of what he did to his family and walked away. Or, "IF" it was something done to another person, someone could have disappeared him, etc. The pastor.

With RG there is no suggestion of anything.

But what still bothers me is the interview with PF, in the beginning, where she is sounding like he walked away, for some reason needs a break, and that she will wait for him. Making me think he has talked to her about some negative feelings he has had about something, someone or everything at that point in his life.

[sherrijean981]

I was also wondering why the Hershey PSP horse patrol was not brought in to help look for RG in the beginning. They could have been up in those woods by the quarry.

I was also hoping while looking for Pastor Rosa with the horses, they might have come across something to do with RG.

People were questioning why they were searching the Lewisburg Prison grounds, but if the grounds they own are anywhere near as large as Rockview's, it really wouldn't be near the prison itself, but on some of the out lying area.

When I was with my first husband, he had lost his license, I was the full time driver, chauffer, so I had to make numerous trips a day past Rockview. We stopped one time on a side road there to talk about our marriage away from our kids.

Later when I had dropped him off and was going home I picked up a couple of PSP patrol cars and a couple undercover cars. I pulled into where I lived and I had cars in front of me and around me and police everywhere. I had a lot of explaining to do about why I was going past the prison so many times and parked on prison property. Now that I hadn't known, thought it was a county road, so they owned almost the whole way down to the bowling alley near Bellefonte.

They seriously protect that property. Another time we were out with our kids. We had our 442 Oldsmobile break down just past the old barracks and almost immediately there was a trooper there. He kindly took us home and the car was taken some where to get the car fixed.

Life was interesting back then! :rolleyes:

[2-B]

I get that LE walks a difficult line when an adult disappears without clear indication of foul play (or even sometimes with that indication, as with the woman and daughter from Philly this past week). They've got to balance the rights of an adult to go wherever he/she pleases with the possibility of foul play. So long as they run parallel investigations and don't back burner the possibility foul play while they check out other avenues, everyone is well served. IMO, the problems arise only when the possibility of foul play doesn't get the attention it deserves because other possibilities exist.

At one point long ago, TG explained how the statements from PF and LG came about sounding as if they were talking to an RG who needed a break and imploring him to come home, they would wait as long as it took, etc. IIRC, those statements didn't necessarily indicate any specific belief on PF's of LG's part that RG had simply taken off according to TG.

[Cloudbuster]

I wonder which LE departments got the $$$$$.


http://www.crewsmostcorrupt.org/node/1583
http://www.crewsmostcorrupt.org/you-dont-know-jack

[Politigal]

Although 3 people are missing it seems only one had a problem, mentally, and could suggest suggest suicide. The woman.

One "might" have done something wrong and could have been ashamed of what he did to his family and walked away. Or, "IF" it was something done to another person, someone could have disappeared him, etc. The pastor.

With RG there is no suggestion of anything.

But what still bothers me is the interview with PF, in the beginning, where she is sounding like he walked away, for some reason needs a break, and that she will wait for him. Making me think he has talked to her about some negative feelings he has had about something, someone or everything at that point in his life.

That's always been a stickler for me too SJ

but maybe it was just Lara and Patty holding on to hope that he was just "out there."

[J. J. in Phila]

There were horses used in the search, though I don't know if it was the Hershey based unit.

[Politigal]

I get that LE walks a difficult line when an adult disappears without clear indication of foul play (or even sometimes with that indication, as with the woman and daughter from Philly this past week). They've got to balance the rights of an adult to go wherever he/she pleases with the possibility of foul play. So long as they run parallel investigations and don't back burner the possibility foul play while they check out other avenues, everyone is well served. IMO, the problems arise only when the possibility of foul play doesn't get the attention it deserves because other possibilities exist.

At one point long ago, TG explained how the statements from PF and LG came about sounding as if they were talking to an RG who needed a break and imploring him to come home, they would wait as long as it took, etc. IIRC, those statements didn't necessarily indicate any specific belief on PF's of LG's part that RG had simply taken off according to TG.

you're always soooooo reasonable :wink:

[J. J. in Phila]

I have found through sleuthing around that RG was a DA who preferred to do his own investigative work. Does anyone recall any mention of possibility of RG visiting Lewisburg Penitentiary the day he disappeared? Anyone recall any mention of a PA drug case person arrested being sentenced to Lewisburg Penitentiary, housed there at the time of RG's disappearance?
JMO

First, I have just the opposite regarding RFG investigating anything.

Second Lewisburg is a federal prison (I think "Federal Corrections Institute" is the correct name). The people he'd prosecute would likely go to state prisons, with a few possible exceptions.

[Cloudbuster]

I have found through sleuthing around that RG was a DA who preferred to do his own investigative work. Does anyone recall any mention of possibility of RG visiting Lewisburg Penitentiary the day he disappeared? Anyone recall any mention of a PA drug case person arrested being sentenced to Lewisburg Penitentiary, housed there at the time of RG's disappearance?
JMO
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have not found anything but will continue to look. We could ask Murtha cause he wanted to but Gitmo prisioners there. Problem is he is claiming that as his area. Hmmm irkkk so now that's his district?


http://www.city-data.com/forum/pennsylvania/545683-murtha-ok-moving-gitmo-prisoners-pa.html
http://www.wpxi.com/news/18537746/detail.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Two weeks ago a well known person, Rev. Rosa, was seen taking a shortcut on the outskirts of Lewisburg, to...who knows where. He disappeared, seemingly without a trace. How is that possible? More importantly...how does that reality show the falacy of wondering how it is possible.

I do not know what happened to Rev. Rosa...or Ray Gricar. But if Ray Gricar ever made it to Lewisburg, the question is not how is it possible he could have left unnoticed. That is as easy as a short walk into oblivion. The question is why he has not returned.

El condor pasa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydl_0KUItU8&NR=1)

I thimk you should remember two things:

1. The level of searching has not been as great for Pastor Rosa as it was for RFG.

2. There is a difference between two weeks, and 4+ years.

[Cloudbuster]

It's not time to throw your towel in yet S1. You have helped us understand many, many thiings, for that I find the word graditude applies. You are needed and very helpful!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." Winston Churchill

[Cloudbuster]

S1 I NEVER was ever involved in getting you banned and I do hope coldwater tells you the truth. I have never went to coldwater about anything on anybody. I don't operate in that way. I always try to keep peace among everyone period. I appoligise when I feel I should. Honestly S1 it was not me.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think you you should realize two things:
1. Rev. Rosa is much more familiar to the locals, and
2. There is no difference in those critical 'first days'.

1. And he was not seen in a hugely populated business district.

2. Oh, yes, in the first 48 hours after last contact, there was no search for Rev. Rosa. Either he wasn't reported missing or LE said **Call back.**

[2-B]

Two weeks ago a well known person, Rev. Rosa, was seen taking a shortcut on the outskirts of Lewisburg, to...who knows where. He disappeared, seemingly without a trace. How is that possible? More importantly...how does that reality show the falacy of wondering how it is possible.

I do not know what happened to Rev. Rosa...or Ray Gricar. But if Ray Gricar ever made it to Lewisburg, the question is not how is it possible he could have left unnoticed. That is as easy as a short walk into oblivion. The question is why he has not returned.


Good catch, S1. Most of us have long pointed out that if Gricar was indeed in Lewisburg, multiple ways existed to get out undetected. Rosa's case illustrates that.

Finding that Gricar was in Lewisburg and used a particular method to "get out" would, of course, be meaningful. But IMHO, one could spend the next 50 years eliminating methods of "getting out of Lewisburg" and not be one iota closer to solving this mystery.

[Politigal]

changing the subject...

Google has a graph of the news that involves Ray Gricar thru the years....

Sad to say, there's actually less news about him in 2009 than there was in 1985.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=ray+gricar&cf=all

The old adage "out of sight - out of mind" unfortunately seems to be true.

[J. J. in Phila]

Good catch, S1. Most of us have long pointed out that if Gricar was indeed in Lewisburg, multiple ways existed to get out undetected. Rosa's case illustrates that.

Finding that Gricar was in Lewisburg and used a particular method to "get out" would, of course, be meaningful. But IMHO, one could spend the next 50 years eliminating methods of "getting out of Lewisburg" and not be one iota closer to solving this mystery.

You might be very premature in your assessment. Two weeks after RFG disappeared, LE was looking for a body.

[2-B]

My assessment is wholly unrelated to timing of any searches or what kind of searches were going on when, JJ. My assessment is a matter of simple logic.

Your position has always been this:

a) Gricar was in Lewisburg;

b) If he left Lewisburg voluntarily, there would be evidence of that departure;

c) Therefore, if no evidence of his departure can be found, the odds of voluntary departure are greatly reduced and the odds of foul play increase.

But your position is logically flawed:

a) No objective evidence exists placing Gricar in Lewisburg. He may have been there; he may not have been there. Any reasoning that flows from the premise that he was definitely there will be suspect.

b) LE has checked most or all of the obvious departure avenues which do leave evidence of leaving Lewisburg. But avenues for departing Lewisburg exist which can never be checked because they leave no evidence trail.

c) No conclusion can be reached by eliminating methods of departure except that those methods were not used. Gricar may never have been in Lewisburg in the first place, or he may have been there and left Lewisburg via means that left no evidence trail.

[gstickley]

Aaaa, 2-B. Isn't it a shame that RG in his famous "YITMAMPWT" screwed up by not leaving a clue as to his "departure" & to his "working hard-harder-hardest-hardly" prior to 04/14/05 (the last time there is positive proof RG was alive). Guess the famous "YITMAMPWT" failed, RG. :ohmy:

[J. J. in Phila]

My assessment is wholly unrelated to timing of any searches or what kind of searches were going on when, JJ. My assessment is a matter of simple logic.

Your position has always been this:

a) Gricar was in Lewisburg;

b) If he left Lewisburg voluntarily, there would be evidence of that departure;

c) Therefore, if no evidence of his departure can be found, the odds of voluntary departure are greatly reduced and the odds of foul play increase.

But your position is logically flawed:

a) No objective evidence exists placing Gricar in Lewisburg. He may have been there; he may not have been there. Any reasoning that flows from the premise that he was definitely there will be suspect.

b) LE has checked most or all of the obvious departure avenues which do leave evidence of leaving Lewisburg. But avenues for departing Lewisburg exist which can never be checked because they leave no evidence trail.

c) No conclusion can be reached by eliminating methods of departure except that those methods were not used. Gricar may never have been in Lewisburg in the first place, or he may have been there and left Lewisburg via means that left no evidence trail.

First, the evidence points to RFG being in Lewisburg, both direct and indirect.

Second, would you care to define "obvious" or tell me where the results were disclosed? At least some methods of departure were checked and the results disclosed, but, as of yet, some were not.

Third, under your point c., your logic suggest that the police should not check any method of departure. There are minimal methods that RFG could have used to leave Lewisburg. There are a smaller number that RFG could have to leave Lewisburg and get to Wilkes-Barre. There is a very small number that look like a metallic colored car and would take him to Bellefonte from Lewisburg. Start be eliminating those in reverse order.

[puzzled]

Just so you know S1....if you leave the boards....I will pull my hair out!:biggrin:

[J. J. in Phila]

JR (the Ohio man-kisser-turned-conspiracy-theorist) recently floated another boat (http://jamesrenner.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/weird-mystery-begins-in-akron/) on 'Lake Runaway'.

Except, that boat proved seaworthy. The professor was found alive and presumably well.

I'm far from convinced the same vote will prove just as seaworthy in the Gricar case.

[sherrijean981]

Upon arriving back home, I checked out the Google Earth map of what appears to be the red and white Mini parked on Cherry Run Rd. on Saturday afternoon, April 9th, and noticed the date of the scan has been changed to April 1. The red and white Mini is still there but guess the idea is now to believe that it happened nine days earlier. Amazing---------considering I viewed that maps for months and it was always April 9th. The confirmation I needed that it was April 9th, six days before he disappeared, came to me, so what's with the need to change the date of the scan? The only April fool is whomever is attempting to insure the public knows nothing about prior to disappearance facts.
JMO


Was the date still 2005? or was it now April 1, 2009? Wasn't that about the time you were telling us about the site?

Sounds like you had a nice drive and many areas looked at. Hope we can soon do that too. Hubby is almost done with his yard projects. His pond turned into a pondless waterfall. Much nicer.

[sherrijean981]

Just so you know S1....if you leave the boards....I will pull my hair out!:biggrin:


I didn't hear that S1 was leaving. Was that posted on the forum and I missed seeing it?

Why you leaving S1?

[puzzled]

Hi Sherrijean...I am glad your yard work is almost done! It sounds really nice! Read S1's post #181 on the previous page. Have a great day!

[2-B]

First, the evidence points to RFG being in Lewisburg, both direct and indirect.

We've been through this before, JJ. There's not a shred of primary, direct evidence proving that Gricar was in Lewisburg. His car was there, but the Mini could have been driven by someone else. We've got a non-smoker's car with ash and the smell of cigarette smoke--a non-smoker who by all accounts would not allow anyone to smoke in his vehicle. That alone raises at least a possible question about who drove the Mini into the parking lot at the SOS.

There's no physical evidence to place Gricar in Lewisburg: no
fingerprints or DNA in the SOS, for instance; no blood in the parking lot or down by the river; no body found in Lewisburg.

There's no documentary evidence that Gricar was in Lewisburg: no signed credit card statements or checks written in any Lewisburg establishment, no Gricar signatures on any hotel registers, no videotape footage showing Gricar there.

Because scent is easily transferable, it can't be used to place Gricar at the scene. It can be used only to establish a relationship that needs further corroboration.

And any witness sightings cannot be used to corroborate the dogs. That corroboration relationship works in the other direction: the dogs, being more accurate, corroborate or eliminate witness sightings, not the other way around.

And of course there's the pesky little matter you've never been able to overcome: no scent we know of was detected apart from where the car had its doors open.


Second, would you care to define "obvious" or tell me where the results were disclosed? At least some methods of departure were checked and the results disclosed, but, as of yet, some were not.

I said LE has checked most or all of the obvious departure methods. How does this differ from what you said in your 11/21/08 guest blog?

Mr. Gricar's medical records were checked, the police checked his residence, had the FBI monitor his accounts, checked public transportation and rental cars and local motels - that yielded nothing.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Vm6r2Jk-4KoJ:community.centredaily.com/%3Fq%3Dnode/6426+Gricar+Lewisburg+police+checked+transportatio n&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Third, under your point c., your logic suggest that the police should not check any method of departure.

Not at all, JJ. Read what I've said more carefully. What I'm saying is that checking methods of transportation out of Lewisburg becomes useful to solving RG's disappearance ONLY if LE finds that RG used one specific method of getting out of Lewisburg.

Unlike you, however, I see that eliminating methods of getting out of Lewisburg tells us nothing since

a) there's no objective proof Gricar was in Lewisburg to begin with and

b) avenues for departing Lewisburg exist which would leave no evidence.

Where you get into trouble is believing there's proof Gricar was in Lewisburg and believing, as you say in a comment to your guest blog, that you're convinced "that if Mr. Gricar walked away, there will be evidence of how he got out of Lewisburg."

[Politigal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT-SFgkVlno&feature=related

[J. J. in Phila]

We've been through this before, JJ. There's not a shred of primary, direct evidence proving that Gricar was in Lewisburg. His car was there, but the Mini could have been driven by someone else. We've got a non-smoker's car with ash and the smell of cigarette smoke--a non-smoker who by all accounts would not allow anyone to smoke in his vehicle. That alone raises at least a possible question about who drove the Mini into the parking lot at the SOS.


We also have witnesses, plural, that saw RFG smoking. Even there, that would not preclude a helper that smoked.


There's no physical evidence to place Gricar in Lewisburg: no
fingerprints or DNA in the SOS, for instance; no blood in the parking lot or down by the river; no body found in Lewisburg.


There is scent and direct evidence.


There's no documentary evidence that Gricar was in Lewisburg: no signed credit card statements or checks written in any Lewisburg establishment, no Gricar signatures on any hotel registers, no videotape footage showing Gricar there.


Yet there is documentary evidence of him going in the direction of Lewisburg.


Because scent is easily transferable, it can't be used to place Gricar at the scene. It can be used only to establish a relationship that needs further corroboration.


Unlikely.


And any witness sightings cannot be used to corroborate the dogs. That corroboration relationship works in the other direction: the dogs, being more accurate, corroborate or eliminate witness sightings, not the other way around.


Yet we have multiple eyewitnesses in the case. Did Merlim the dog ever trace Laci Peterson's sent from the house to the warehouse?


And of course there's the pesky little matter you've never been able to overcome: no scent we know of was detected apart from where the car had its doors open.


[sarcasm]WoW, I never knew Minis had doors 20 yards long![/sarcasm




I said LE has checked most or all of the obvious departure methods. How does this differ from what you said in your 11/21/08 guest blog?

Mr. Gricar's medical records were checked, the police checked his residence, had the FBI monitor his accounts, checked public transportation and rental cars and local motels - that yielded nothing.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Vm6r2Jk-4KoJ:community.centredaily.com/%3Fq%3Dnode/6426+Gricar+Lewisburg+police+checked+transportatio n&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


And has LE checked those close friends/associates who might have driven him out? Straw car purchases or rentals be the same people? How about car purchases in the Lewisburg area on 4/15-16? What was the result?



Not at all, JJ. Read what I've said more carefully. What I'm saying is that checking methods of transportation out of Lewisburg becomes useful to solving RG's disappearance ONLY if LE finds that RG used one specific method of getting out of Lewisburg.

Unlike you, however, I see that eliminating methods of getting out of Lewisburg tells us nothing since

a) there's no objective proof Gricar was in Lewisburg to begin with and

b) avenues for departing Lewisburg exist which would leave no evidence.

Where you get into trouble is believing there's proof Gricar was in Lewisburg and believing, as you say in a comment to your guest blog, that you're convinced "that if Mr. Gricar walked away, there will be evidence of how he got out of Lewisburg."

No UTR, I've said that that there isn't evidence of RFG's, it becomes very unlikely that he walked away. Why do now want to keep such a high likelihood of walkaway is the evidence would point away from it?

[Politigal]

so....have you picked out a new forum name yet??? :laugh:

[2-B]

We also have witnesses, plural, that saw RFG smoking. Even there, that would not preclude a helper that smoked.

No witnesses ever saw Ray Gricar smoking, except the "occasional celebratory cigar." If you mean WB, those folks saw someone who resembled RG smoking. No proof it was Gricar, and it probably wasn't, given the odds in MP cases of having valid identifications.

There is scent and direct evidence.

As the FBI and every other entity knowledgeable about scent theory will point out, scent is easily transferable and cannot be used as primary evidence. There is no direct evidence.

Yet there is documentary evidence of him going in the direction of Lewisburg.

There is no documentary evidence of Ray Gricar going in the direction of Lewisburg. There is evidence that RG's cell phone made a call from the Brush Valley area. And even if there was documentary evidence of Gricar "going in the direction of Lewisburg," that would not place Gricar IN Lewisburg. You made this very point yourself, some ramblings about Lancaster, IIRC.

Unlikely.

So you question the FBI's Scent Evidence Unit? Interesting. I didn't realize you had any background, education, or training in the hard sciences, placing you in a position to question the research the FBI has done on scent theory with regard to investigative work.

Yet we have multiple eyewitnesses in the case. Did Merlim the dog ever trace Laci Peterson's sent from the house to the warehouse?

You've been presented with a mountain of scientific evidence demonstrating how little the multiple witnesses in this case may mean, but you continue to ignore it. As you've been told before, the leading scholar in the U.S. on witness identifications cautions that what causes one witness to be incorrect in an identification often causes multiple witnesses to also be incorrect.

A&E's American Justice had an episode about problems with eyewitness identification the other day. As one police officer said in regard to the Shaun Deckingha case (where multiple witnesses at multiple bank robberies misidentified Deckingha as the robber, leading to his wrongful conviction), "I'd rather have a small piece of physical evidence than a basketful of witnesses."

I know you'll raise that danged car issue again. You've ignored the Sund/Pelosso example, so maybe this one will get through to you. I happened to be flipping TV channels the other day and passed by Judge Judy just as she was saying to (screaming at) some witness, "No! You thought you identified the car! And when you thought you identified the car, you assumed you identified the person! You didn't identify the person!"

(We've also been over the whole Merlin thing before--a civilian trained and civilian handled dog at the mercy of non-dog handling police direction, not able to complete tasks the way the handler wanted to complete them. No point in doing it again in detail.)

[sarcasm]WoW, I never knew Minis had doors 20 yards long![/sarcasm

So now you have greater knowledge than the CIA's scent investigative unit? Okay. The CIA estimates that scent can travel up to 500 yards under favorable wind conditions (parameters which existed for most of the time between when the Mini arrived in the SOS lot and when the dogs arrived).

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, we have both a basketful of witnesses and physical evidence, at least in Lewisburg. We might just be ending up with more.

S1, you may get your wish at some point, but keep in mind that while I have contacts, plural, I don't always agree with them.

The last time you asked about someone's opinion, it was SS's. As Willoughby once said, "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it." For my part, I'll be happy if the likelihood of two (suicide, walkaway, or murder) of the major theories can be greatly reduced.

[2-B]

UTR, we have both a basketful of witnesses and physical evidence, at least in Lewisburg. We might just be ending up with more.



JJ, UTR was banned, as I understand it, several months ago.

But as for your conversation with me about witnesses and physical evidence, I have no idea what physical evidence you're talking about that would place Ray Gricar IN Lewisburg.

There's no DNA. There's no blood. There's no fingerprints. There's no body.

Unless Gricar's scent was found in places we haven't been told, the scent evidence actually casts doubt on the vast majority of the witnesses. (Keep in mind that as an investigative tool, a function of the Bloodhound is to help eliminate or verify witness accounts.) The scent in the parking lot was not a trail that the dogs picked up (see Dixon, Chief, no trail) and can't be used to verify any real or imagined SOS parking lot witnesses because of the alternative scent transfer possibility.

So there you have it. A basketful of witnesses can be wrong, usually are in MP cases, and probably are in this case given the dog evidence. There's no physical evidence of Gricar having been in Lewisburg.

What does that mean? Ray Gricar may have been in Lewisburg. He may not have been.

And any theory predicated on the certainty that he was is built on an extremely shaky foundation. Why don't you just admit that instead of clinging to a position that's not consistent with the evidence?

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B and theory that RFG was murdered is only a much less stable foundation; there is not a piece of direct or indirect evidence that clearly, unambiguously points to it. There is evidence that could point to murder along with other theories.

Any theory that RFG was not in Lewisburg has no evidence. There is evidence that he was in Lewisburg (and probably more than has been disclosed). If you don't think, or want to believe, that RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/15/05, fine, but show some evidence to that effect. Not opinion, not belief, but evidence.

[2-B]

2-B and theory that RFG was murdered is only a much less stable foundation; there is not a piece of direct or indirect evidence that clearly, unambiguously points to it. There is evidence that could point to murder along with other theories.

Where did I mention either walkaway or murder?

My discussion (and my assessment) of evidence or lack thereof of Gricar's presence in Lewisburg is entirely separate and apart from the murder/walkaway/suicide question. He could have walked away having never been in Lewisburg. He could have been murdered having never been in Lewisburg. He could have walked away having been in Lewisburg. He could have been murdered having been in Lewisburg.

You limit your thinking to scenarios based on Gricar having been in Lewisburg, when there is no evidence he was ever there. So be it. Limit your thinking based on unproven premises if that if what you want to do.

Any theory that RFG was not in Lewisburg has no evidence. There is evidence that he was in Lewisburg (and probably more than has been disclosed). If you don't think, or want to believe, that RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/15/05, fine, but show some evidence to that effect. Not opinion, not belief, but evidence.

I am not putting forth any theory. I am not even arguing that he was there or wasn't there. I am examining evidence (or lack thereof). I said quite plainly there is no evidence Gricar was in Lewisburg and that he may have been there, he may not have been there.

There has been overwhelming evidence presented on this board to demonstrate that he may not have been. You have simply chosen to cherry pick, believing in things that have very slim odds of being accurate and ignoring things that carry stronger weight. You pretend there's physical evidence and documentary evidence where there is none. That's how you arrive at your position there's "evidence" of Gricar having been in Lewisburg. Meanwhile, no actual evidence definitively places him there.

Cherry pick and ignore if that is what you want to do. But that kind of limitation in your thinking may keep you from finding out what really happened to Ray Gricar. And that is the only thing which is of interest to me, not the limitations you place on your thinking about the case.

[gstickley]

Hey, 2-B. You need this yet today?

http://www.feinc.net/stress-1.htm

[2-B]

Hey, 2-B. You need this yet today?

http://www.feinc.net/stress-1.htm

Yep, but I just sent you a better stress reliever!

[2-B]

Another tidbit for the crock pot-----re: Rosa case

http://www.standard-journal.com/articles/2009/06/10/news/doc4a2fca8b4d1df071044979.txt

There is a thread on Rosa under Amber Alerts. Sounds like Rosa is on the run.
JMO

Thanks for the update, Logic. Pretty classic. Rosa's been gone less than three weeks, and already we have a wealth of information uncovered and released providing good motive for being "on the run."

Four years plus in the Gricar case and nothing of the sort.

[sherrijean981]

changing the subject...

Google has a graph of the news that involves Ray Gricar thru the years....

Sad to say, there's actually less news about him in 2009 than there was in 1985.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=ray+gricar&cf=all

The old adage "out of sight - out of mind" unfortunately seems to be true.


I went through the news on this link and there was so much there I had forgotten about, from when I lived in Centre County. Some of these crimes I was living just miles away or working just down the road from the crimes.

I didn't get through all of the years but I was looking at the earlier years and the amount of time the convicted people were getting for their crimes. There were many that would either be getting out of prison after serving their full time or getting out early for "good time" in prison, in 2004/2005. I hope all the cases were checked into because there are many people listed here and some family members who are furious for the sentence given to their family member.

Good link p'gal.

[sherrijean981]

Thanks for the update, Logic. Pretty classic. Rosa's been gone less than three weeks, and already we have a wealth of information uncovered and released providing good motive for being "on the run."

Four years plus in the Gricar case and nothing of the sort.


Rosa's disappearance could also be a case of foul play. You see in the news all the time where a person accused of a sexual act against a child ends up a murder case.

In fact, just last night I saw on the news a man was beaten by a group of men after he had raped a young girl in their neighborhood. After the man was sent to the hospital the DNA proved he had done it, and the men were not charged for anything.

Do you realise the dates of these activities were going on from 2005 to 2009. In Lewisburg, the same year RG disappeared.

Any connection, since RG was part of the Women's Resource Center? Do women and their children get help from one county to another? Could the woman he was seen with been an upset parent he might have been helping?

How could this go on and where was Rosa's wife during his actions?

[sherrijean981]

Pete Bosak (and therefore J. J.) either knows something or knows nothing. Which is it?


Sounds like JJ knows something. He said on another thread that there will be information coming from someone(s) this summer.

Wow, S1! First I hear you are leaving, told to go to another link to see that info and there you are telling the world you are Saunteer!
I don't think I was on when Saunteer was speaking, if I was I was only reading or early posting.

Why do you want to get yourself banned? You could just as easily sit back and be a spirit but without talking. (I think I have a connection to something, voices coming through the fans, electric system or something)

Everyone one on here is in some way out of whack with their thoughts and stuff. You don't need to get banned for it, you will just be a legend and not able to tell us anything. I would really like your real name not just your banned name. :wink: I want to know where all you have been and what air your are going to breath now. By the way, do you fly? I have some nice smelling air over my way. I know you won't give up and will be here yet.

As to getting banned and guessing who people are there have been so many people leaving and just as many new ones coming on right afterward, they could be anyone of them. I am sure we all wonder but it doesn't really matter does it?

I :wub: you! You have been great fun and full of info.

[Politigal]

Found an article I don't recall having read before...or maybe I just didn't read it that thoroughly

published 4/21/05

http://www.cleveland.com/whateverhappened/index.ssf/2005/04/missing_man_has_close_ties_to.html

Sloane and his friend were considering driving to an antiques shop in Lewisburg, Pa., where Gricar was last seen, and then on to the spot where police found his car.

"Maybe if we could see it, get a feel for it," Sloane said, "maybe we could figure out what happened."

[2-B]

Found an article I don't recall having read before...or maybe I just didn't read it that thoroughly

published 4/21/05

http://www.cleveland.com/whateverhappened/index.ssf/2005/04/missing_man_has_close_ties_to.html

Sloane and his friend were considering driving to an antiques shop in Lewisburg, Pa., where Gricar was last seen, and then on to the spot where police found his car.

"Maybe if we could see it, get a feel for it," Sloane said, "maybe we could figure out what happened."

Thanks for pulling up that article again, Pgal. It's also interesting to look at this section now in light of the Rosa case:

"This was not the kind of guy who would take a walk on the wild side," said Steve Sloane, an assistant district attorney who worked alongside Gricar for nearly a decade and considered him a close friend outside of work. "If he had a secret life, boy, it would be miraculous because no one ever got a whiff of it."

Gricar didn't gamble, didn't drink too much, didn't have money problems, friends said.

His indulgences were black-and-white movies featuring Charlie Chaplin or Laurel and Hardy and long afternoon drives.

Sloane, who once agreed to meet his mentor at the former Fagan's in The Flats in Cleveland, said Gricar also liked to sip a pint of Guinness and watch the boats glide by.



The article was written six days after RG disappeared. Four years later, this is still essentially the same picture we have of Gricar, a hard-working guy who enjoyed relatively simple pleasures in life and didn't have the kind of problems that motivate the classic walkaway.

In less than three weeks, Rosa's hidden life was exposed, and a motivation for walkaway, if not proof of walkaway, was evident.

Rosa's case is typical of what happens when someone leaves voluntarily--LE quickly uncovers a motivation and the public quickly learns about it, regardless of how embarrassing the reason is, and regardless of the missing person's standing in the community.

[puzzled]

I wonder why SS says that he and his friend might drive to the SOS and then on to the parking lot where Ray's car was found. The lot is right in front of the SOS. Did he not know that?

[2-B]

Interesting use of words, puzzled. Almost sounds like two stops instead of one. If visiting the SOS, the lot is typically where you park, so no need to 'go on' to where the car was parked. You're already there.
JMO

The odd wording in that sentence was the first thing that caught my eye.

But was SS in the dark about the car's location with respect to the SOS? I would doubt it.

More likely the Cleveland writer, at a distance, who was unfamiliar with the geography of the Lewisburg.

And so, probably just another warning about taking everything in print as gospel (like the Renner article indicating that RG told PF he "he might play hooky and head into Lewisburg, an hour's drive to the east, to do some antiquing").

http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1806

[2-B]

Placing it there and then going 20 yards would put it out of the lot considering it is a small lot. It is described as .12 of an acre, thus 5227 sq. ft. of 43,560 sq. ft. in an acre, if I've calculated correctly. It is a nearly square parcel, so about 72.5 ft. squared. 20 yards would be 60 feet so I don't see how, if the car was parked in the middle row as was shown that it would be possible to measure 60, and still be in the lot in any direction other than to the driveway out of the parking lot.

Since that's where the tow truck would have to go out at, a mystery how they could have determined he got into another vehicle. Seems to me like they determined the driver went to the street to get picked up by someone. 60 feet from location TG drew would place it in the street. If that's the last place the scent was picked up, hard to believe the dog was following anything other than the tow truck.
JMO

My opinion: we've been "forced" into talking about the 20 yard figure because a) one MSNBC article printed it and b) JJ glommed onto it like a sworn statement.

I'm still reluctant to accept it as absolute fact. We've never seen the dog handler's report (sigh). The MSNBC article gave no attribution--who the heck said it was 20 yards, anyway? No other source mentions 20 yards, and in fact, multiple sources indicate the dogs failed to trail away from the car's location. They may well have picked up scent 20 yards away from where the car had been, but from what Dixon and EN have said, the dogs did NOT trail. I'm far from convinced any of the dogs started at the car and followed a scent trail from point A (where the car had been) to point B (a direct track 20 yards from the car's location).

From the CDT:

Although police dogs were brought to the parking lot where the car was found, they could not establish a track for Gricar beyond the immediate vicinity of the car. No surveillance cameras are aimed at the parking lot, and no one saw Gricar actually park the car there, according to Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...ar/12203757.htm

We're also told in the CDT Q&A after EN left that the dogs lost the scent "very close to the car."

Because of those descriptions, I don't think the dogs were following the Mini on the flatbed. If they were, I think they would have followed a trail into the street toward the police barracks. I tend to think they were picking up on scent that came from the vehicle when the doors were opened--thus their inability to establish a trail away from where the Mini had been parked. They could easily have picked up scent at a 20 yard distance, given the winds and humidity in that time period. But since the Bloodhound doesn't work footstep to footstep, finding Gricar's scent 20 yards away (if that distance is accurate) doesn't necessarily translate into the Bloodhound following a straight scent path from where the car was to a point 20 yards away. In fact, that's inconsistent with all the accounts we've got of the dogs failing to establish a trail away from the car's location.

It would be helpful if we knew exactly where the car was parked when found--the location described by the woman on WS or the location marked on the photos we've seen.

[J. J. in Phila]

Actually, looking at map, the aerial photo. and the photo from TG, the lot appears to be roughly 50 yards on each side. The car appears to be appears to be 15 yards in the lot; each space is about 3 yards and the Mini (according to TG's photo) was 5 spaces in.

So long as the Mini was 15 yards from the street, a 20 yard trail could be left in the lot, but the trail could not be perpendicular to St. Johns Street. The trail would be diagonal in the square of the parking lot.

Mini to St. Johns: 15 yards

Mini to Water Street: 15 yards

Distance of path from Mini to to the corner of the lot at Water and St. Johns 21.2 yards (rounded).

It actually looks like it might have been more than 15 yards away from either street, if the location in the photo is accurate.

[gstickley]

Will be most interesting to see how this turns out. If VA Tech is successful, perhaps a FOI could be sought ref. RG, as the circumstances appear the same.

Va. Tech paper sues for documents in probe of missing student
The lawsuit seeks to enforce a Freedom of Information Act request for State Police records on missing student Robert Kovack.
By The Associated Press

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Virginia Tech's student newspaper is suing the West Virginia State Police to obtain documents related to the investigation of a graduate student's disappearance in September 1998.

The lawsuit filed by Educational Media Co., operator of The Collegiate Times, seeks to enforce a Freedom of Information Act request for records on missing architecture student Robert Kovack.

Kovack, 24, told friends he was heading home to Rivesville, Marion County, to visit his parents and attend the West Virginia University football game against Maryland. His abandoned Geo Tracker was found along U.S. 19 four days later, about a half-mile north of the National Park Service's Canyon Rim Visitor Center.

At the time, police said the area around the vehicle indicated no crime or struggle.

Dog teams, Park Service rangers and Kovack's family and friends from Blacksburg, Va., helped in the search, which included door-to-door visits to homes along the canyon and stops at campsites, where fliers were distributed.

State Police searched by helicopter, and whitewater rafting companies helped examine the New River.

In October 2008, State Police denied The Collegiate Times' request for records, citing the ongoing investigation. The newspaper initially filed a FOIA request in January and later resubmitted it with additional documents.

In denying the FOIA requests, State Police said "the complete report" was covered by an exemption to the law, according to the May 19 lawsuit filed in Kanawha Circuit Court.

Kelly Furnas, the newspaper's editorial adviser, said State Police had said that the Kovack case had no active leads.

"It was a cold case, and yet when we submitted the FOIA request, the response was that it was part of an open investigation. And those two things contradict each other," Furnas said.

Furnas said he was surprised at the denial because State Police officials were extremely helpful during earlier telephone interviews for a story published May 7 on the disappearance.

"There were a lot of theories, suppositions and conjecture as to what happened or didn't happen to Robert Kovack," Furnas said. "If we had an any sort of documentation from the police, we could have maybe closed some of those doors or open other doors that we were completely unaware of."

[2-B]

Will be most interesting to see how this turns out. If VA Tech is successful, perhaps a FOI could be sought ref. RG, as the circumstances appear the same.

Interesting case, GS, and it seems to have a few elements in common in the RG case: the abandoned car; no sign of struggle or a crime; river and helicopter searches.

We've also got a similar question as to whether the RG case is "cold" or "active," which seems to be pivotal in the FOI decision.

MR says the case is active and an on-going investigation. But this was MM at the three-year anniversary mark:

Even the man who replaced Gricar says this case could stay cold for some time.

“Unless there is somebody with some news or there’s something that's discovered, some new piece of evidence that's discovered that hasn't been apparent to us to date, that gives us kind of a new lead, unless something like that happens, no. This is gonna be one of those cases that people ponder over for the next several decades,” Mike Madeira, Centre County District Attorney, said.



http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/?cid=6427

The big difference is that the VA case is eleven years out; we're only four years out.

Thanks for posting the case, GS. It will be an interesting one to watch.

[2-B]

So long as the Mini was 15 yards from the street, a 20 yard trail could be left in the lot[ . . . ]

First question that needs to be answered: was the Mini in the position shown in the photos? The photo location is clearly not the same location carefully described by the poster on WS who saw the car between 2:30 and 3:00 pm Saturday afternoon. She described the car as parked in the first parking space in the first row at the end of the lot. She described the Mini as being in the extreme upper right corner closest to the street.

She also saw the plastic bag (aerobics tape) and described its location with respect to the car. So the car could not have been moved between her visit to the lot and LE finding the car later that day, unless someone also moved the plastic bag with the aerobics tape along with it.

Like other discrepancies in this case, this one has bothered me for a long time, and like other discrepancies, I don't believe we've ever gotten an official, confirmed answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'll reserve judgment on where the PSP Trooper spotted it, but at either suggested location, RFG could have walked from it for 20 yards, and still been in the parking lot.

I'll also add that that the witnesses did see RFG moving his car on 4/15, in the parking lot.

[2-B]

I'll reserve judgment on where the PSP Trooper spotted it, but at either suggested location, RFG could have walked from it for 20 yards, and still been in the parking lot.

I'll also add that that the witnesses did see RFG moving his car on 4/15, in the parking lot.

Are you disputing Dixon's statement five days after the dogs were in the lot that the dogs picked up no trail? Dixon was there with the dog handlers that Sunday, no? Why the reliance on an unattributed statement in an article from a year after the fact?

Are you also disputing Dixon's statement that no one saw Gricar park the car in the lot?

[J. J. in Phila]

Are you disputing Dixon's statement five days after the dogs were in the lot that the dogs picked up no trail? Dixon was there with the dog handlers that Sunday, no? Why the reliance on an unattributed statement in an article from a year after the fact?

Are you also disputing Dixon's statement that no one saw Gricar park the car in the lot?


I said moving the car in the lot. That doesn't imply that he anyone saw him drive into the lot. Yes at least two witnesses saw RFG moving the Mini in the lot.

From what I recall, this the dog's circling statement, that the dogs detected the scent in the lot and followed it, then stopped and circled.

[sherrijean981]

Wouldn't you think TG would be aware of the location of the car by being told and/or shown by LE? And his photo showed the car in the rear of the lot. To me it would be the end of the lot on the extreme right, in the rear, near the alley.

I am confused by the ladies version. She is saying the end of the lot, not the side and not the rear, just "the end". By one statement it sounds like she is in the rear looking towards the front (SOS) and the other one sounds like she is in the front looking back. (towards the alley).

I was in the parking lot, and saw the spot TG mentioned and we parked our vehicles in that spot. I have also always wondered if RG was seen by the girl in the museum, across from the park, why they didn't take the dogs to that spot. If they did and they didn't pick up RG's scent, then someone was trying to make it look like RG.

JJ, I keep hoping you are getting the truth and information from someone who knows in the BPD because with all your statements it sure sounds like something is going to come out. I wish it would.

[2-B]

I said moving the car in the lot. That doesn't imply that he anyone saw him drive into the lot. Yes at least two witnesses saw RFG moving the Mini in the lot.

Dixon's "no one saw Gricar park the car" statement was made in the context of whether there was any proof Gricar had been in Lewisburg. Surely Dixon would not have separated driving the car into the lot and moving the Mini in the lot in that context.

This was in an EN Gricar special package in the CDT, no longer available. EN's special packages didn't appear until at least September 2005, IIRC.

So when did the alleged witnesses who allegedly saw Gricar moving the Mini Cooper in the SOS lot come forward?

From what I recall, this the dog's circling statement, that the dogs detected the scent in the lot and followed it, then stopped and circled.

April 19, 2005: Bloodhounds and tracking dogs were also sent out, but they did not pick up on anything, Dixon said.

April 22, 2005: Chief Duane Dixon said a bloodhound brought to the antiques store's parking lot in Lewisburg picked up no trail

April 23, 2005: the failure of trail-sniffing dogs to follow a scent away from his car

April 24, 2005: Dixon said Thursday that a police dog that sniffed around the parking lot where Gricar's car was found

May 13, 2005: Police dogs traced Gricar's scent around the car


I don't know what you were reading, but none of that adds up to "followed the scent" to me, especially the phrasing "failure . . . to follow a scent away from his car" and "picked up no trail." The dogs detected Gricar's scent in the lot, but they didn't pick up a trail to follow.

The circling behavior (in the lot as opposed to tracing the scent around the car) is simply a behavior many scent dogs engage in to indicate "Hey, we're out of scent."

Without seeing the handler's report and the details in it, the best I can say from the press reports is that one of two things happened:

a) Gricar was in the lot and got into adjacent to or very near the Mini. But he was not the person sighted elsewhere (in the SOS, for instance, or by the park).

b) Gricar was not there, and the dogs picked up on scent from the car when its doors were opened.

I wonder how aware the dog handler(s) were of reported sightings when they were directed to take the dogs to other areas and when the "might possibly have gotten into another vehicle" theory was offered.

[2-B]

I have also always wondered if RG was seen by the girl in the museum, across from the park, why they didn't take the dogs to that spot. If they did and they didn't pick up RG's scent, then someone was trying to make it look like RG.



A long time ago, someone (I think it was Logic) asked BW if the dogs had been taken to other areas such as the SOS and the park and the museum. BW responded, "i believe that it's safe to say the dog's search was not limited to the immediate vicinity of the parking lot."

I would also think that's safe to say, knowing that Bloodhounds are used to help eliminate or confirm witness sightings.

[Politigal]

Found a link on Wikipedia about people who have disappeared mysteriously...and RG is included there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_disappeared

I was also researching various disappearances where the missing person's vehicle was found abandoned....

There are numerous cases...and by & large ....the majority of those cases evolved into *criminal* cases.

Too bad Gricar's case wasn't initially looked at in that light.

JMHO

[Cloudbuster]

http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/how_to_tick_people_off.shtml lol
----------------------------------------------------------------
Heads up on the CDT
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1348519.html
Man charged with planning murder of police informant from jail cell
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.centredaily.com/126/story/1348283.html?storylink=omni_popular

Woman reported missing in PA

[J. J. in Phila]

Found a link on Wikipedia about people who have disappeared mysteriously...and RG is included there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_disappeared

I was also researching various disappearances where the missing person's vehicle was found abandoned....

There are numerous cases...and by & large ....the majority of those cases evolved into *criminal* cases.

Too bad Gricar's case wasn't initially looked at in that light.

JMHO

The majority are more likely to be some other cause, suicide, death with body not recovered.

[2-B]

The majority are more likely to be some other cause, suicide, death with body not recovered.

Pgal is talking about two sets of cases, the ones listed in Wiki and the ones she researched where the car was found abandoned. It's the latter set she researched and discovered that the majority evolved into criminal cases.

She didn't comment on manner of death or cause of death for the list on Wiki.

BTW, I still have an open question a few posts back directed to you: when did the alleged witnesses who allegedly saw Gricar allegedly moving the Mini Cooper in the SOS lot come forward?

Must have been after September 2005. Curious when they came forward, who they were, and where there's a link to any official member of the investigation mentioning these alleged witnesses.

[J. J. in Phila]

Pgal is talking about two sets of cases, the ones listed in Wiki and the ones she researched where the car was found abandoned. It's the latter set she researched and discovered that the majority evolved into criminal cases.

She didn't comment on manner of death or cause of death for the list on Wiki.

BTW, I still have an open question a few posts back directed to you: when did the alleged witnesses who allegedly saw Gricar allegedly moving the Mini Cooper in the SOS lot come forward?

Must have been after September 2005. Curious when they came forward, who they were, and where there's a link to any official member of the investigation mentioning these alleged witnesses.

No allegation; that is what they reported. I believe it was in the first weeks, though it wasn't released. The first mention of moving the cars was out until the fall of 2005, and that was across from the Museum. No mention of McKnight's witness either, until 2008. No mention of the computer searches until 2.5 years after they were discovered. No mention that one of the Wilkes-Barre witnesses was in LE. A few other things have not been mentioned and I suspect a lot more have not.

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B, if you are asking if LE has been (and is) holding back information, the answer is, yes.

[2-B]

No allegation; that is what they reported. I believe it was in the first weeks, though it wasn't released. The first mention of moving the cars was out until the fall of 2005, and that was across from the Museum. No mention of McKnight's witness either, until 2008. No mention of the computer searches until 2.5 years after they were discovered. No mention that one of the Wilkes-Barre witnesses was in LE. A few other things have not been mentioned and I suspect a lot more have not.

It makes no logical sense for LE to withhold an alleged sighting of Gricar moving the car from one spot in the SOS lot and parking it in another when LE had already released an identical alleged sighting a block away. Why would Dixon specifically state that no one had seen Gricar park the car in the SOS lot when an alleged sighting of Gricar doing the same thing a block away was released?

I suspect McKnight's witness wasn't mentioned because the witness was checked out as Madeira said it was, and the sighting led nowhere. I wouldn't be surprised if there are any number of sightings we haven't heard about if the RG case is typical of publicized MP cases. In the Brittanee Drexel disappearance, there were 20 sightings reported in the first three days after she went missing. An article I read about a month later said LE was continuing to get at least one sighting a day.

The cop/witness in WB was not publicized until 2008, true, but it's a detail far less meaningful than you seem to think it is. And after all, LE had released that the Michigan restaurant witness was a retired police sketch artist, a witness equal--if not better--at observing detail.

We're all familiar with the old adage that the public generally knows about 5-10% of what LE knows in any given investigation, so it comes as no surprise to anyone on these boards that we're unaware of many details.

However, with regard to the alleged sightings of Gricar moving the car from one spot in the SOS lot and parking it in another, I've seen no statement from anyone in any official capacity with the investigation, and it makes no logical sense that Dixon would deliberately state that no one saw Gricar park the car in that lot while the same scenario a block away was made public knowledge.

I'll gladly change my mind on this should we be given a news article with this sighting attributed to an official in the investigation, but until then, I continue to put it the "doesn't make sense and probably isn't true" category.

[gstickley]

http://www.centredaily.com/116/story/69175.html

Two years after Gricar vanished, police no closer to answers
(snip)

Two years ago today, former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace from an antiques mall in Lewisburg, his red and white Mini Cooper found abandoned the next day by police.

Investigators, while hoping they will get the break they need to determine what happened to the career prosecutor, concede the case has officially gone cold.

"I would say this is a cold case," said Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira, who inherited the investigation into his predecessor's disappearance when he took office in January 2006, almost nine months after Gricar vanished.

(snip)

The day he vanished, a Friday, Ray Gricar telephoned his live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was taking the day off and going for a drive on state Route 192 toward Lewisburg.

There have been no credible sightings of him since that day.

(snip)

Still, Tony Gricar said, he and Lara are being realistic.

"Neither one of us believe he is still alive," Tony Gricar said.

(snip)

(Bolding is mine, sayeth gstickley)

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B, whether or not it makes sense to you, or me, LE has been holding back information. Obviously there was no reason to hold back McKnight's Witness, under your "logic," but they did. Obviously there was no reason, under your "logic," why a time line on witnesses in Lewisburg could not have been created by LE, but it wasn't.

Obviously, there was no reason to keep the information that RFG did computer searches secret for 2.5 years, under your "logic," but they did.

Ironically, I can understand why the "cop/witness in WB" was not released in 2005.

[2-B]

2-B, whether or not it makes sense to you, or me, LE has been holding back information. Obviously there was no reason to hold back McKnight's Witness, under your "logic," but they did. Obviously there was no reason, under your "logic," why a time line on witnesses in Lewisburg could not have been created by LE, but it wasn't.

Obviously, there was no reason to keep the information that RFG did computer searches secret for 2.5 years, under your "logic," but they did.

Ironically, I can understand why the "cop/witness in WB" was not released in 2005.


JJ, please read my posts carefully and avoid twisting what I've said.

I made it quite clear that we ALL understand that in any case, LE withholds information. I explained what I considered a logical reason McKnight's witness hadn't been publicized. I consider the cop/witness in WB not being publicized as just one detail of many that hadn't been publicized, since it is no different from the retired police sketch artist as witness in Michigan. (IOW, the fact that it wasn't released holds no great meaning, just as failure to release many of the details we don't know holds no great meaning.)

As for the lack of a witness timeline, I clearly implied that was perfectly logical to me--it is usually not done because of the great number of witnesses that lead nowhere. There's been no witness timeline in the BD case. There has been no witness timeline for the 350+ witnesses in the Jennifer Kesse case. There has been no witness timeline in the Madeleine McCann case. The fact is, most MP cases have an abundance of witness reports the public never hears about because the reports lead nowhere. Some are released to the public; most individual reports are not.

OTOH, there was a perfectly logical reason to keep the computer searches under wraps while LE tried to develop contextual information. That context is obviously still sketchy, but LE said they released the information this spring to try to stir up interest and generate new leads.

With the computer searches, we have seen LE go on the record saying that these computer searches were found.

We have not seen any similar on the record statements from LE with regard to witnesses seeing RG moving and parking the car in the SOS lot. I do not take blog reports as official statements of anything. You have referred elsewhere to the "SOS Mini Moving Witnesses" as "confirmed." Can you provide a link where LE confirms these witnesses?

[Politigal]

Fortunately - GStickley had a copy of Buehner's letter:

June 3, 2008

Honorable Michael T. Madeira
District Attorney of Centre County
Centre County Courthouse
Bellefonte, PA 16823

Honorable D. Peter Johnson
District Attorney of Union County
Union County Courthouse
103 South 2" Street
Lewisburg, PA 17837

Re: Disappearance of our colleague Ray Gricar

Dear Mike and Pete:

It has been over three years since our friend and colleague disappeared -- literally vanished from Earth.

I write to both of you because each of your counties has some involvement in the investigation of Ray's disappearance.

There are three separate matters of serious importance which I would like to call to your attention.

First, there is the matter of the hard drive of Ray’s laptop found in the Susquehanna River at Lewisburg within or near Union County’s boundary. Media reports have indicated that law enforcement officials were unable to recover any data from the hard drive. I have recently come across information relating to a hard drive that was on the Space Shuttle Columbia which tragically disintegrated on reentry on February 1, 2003. A Seagate hard drive from Columbia was found burned almost beyond recognition as part of the debris. The hard drive was sent to Kroll Ontrack, Inc. whose corporate headquarters is 9023 Columbia Road, Eden Park, MN 55347 (phone number is 1-800-347-6105). Kroll’s computer forensic investigators were able to retrieve almost 100% of the data stored on the hard drive despite it being in incredibly poor condition. This was disclosed in the April, 2008 edition of Physical Review E Journal.

It would seem obvious that the hard drive should be submitted forthwith to Kroll for testing. Any information on the hard drive should be highly valuable.

Second, hotel/motel records are required to be kept for three years pursuant to Pennsylvania law. 37 P.S. Section 105(a) sets forth “The innkeeper of a lodging establishment shall maintain for a period of three years a guest register which shows the name residence, date of arrival and departure of guests of the lodging establishment.”

As you may recall, Ray was clearly seen by several witnesses in Lewisburg, PA on Friday, April 15, 2005, standing by his Mini Cooper by the park near the Lewisburg River Bridge. Those witnesses indicated that it appeared he was waiting for someone and even moved his car.

There is an additional report that places Ray at an antique mall — The Street of Shops one block away from the first location on Saturday, April 16, 2005 in the morning time. One witness was Craig Bennett, owner of the antique mail, who is a highly credible individual. It was reported that he was seen with or talking to a female and that those two could have been together. This scenario begs the obvious question: where did Ray spend Friday night? I do not believe that Ray would, if he were staying in a nearby hotel/motel with a female, register in his own name. This is because he was already in a serious relationship with Patty Fornicola and did not return home to her in Bellefonte on April 15, 2005.

It is my understanding that there is a pretty clear description of the female seen in Ray's presence on Saturday, April 16, 2005.

One method of furthering this investigation would be to canvas every lodging establishment within a certain radius -- 30 miles -- and obtain the names of all female registrants name. Experience tells me that mostly men are registrants. Then, taking each female name, investigators would run a PennDOT picture check, looking for females bearing a resemblance to the woman seen with Ray on April 16, 2005.

This would require manpower and a serious commitment by investigators to work diligently to solve this mystery. This should cause a discussion about forming a “Gricar task force” with involvement by various law enforcement agencies. However, the three years is up and such records may soon be destroyed!

Third, there is a witness who saw Ray traveling on U.S. Route 15 on Friday afternoon April 15, 2005. This is a person who contacted former District Attorney Ted McKnight right after Ray’s disappearance. Ted advised this individual to contact Bellefonte Police Department. Ted related this to me in a conversation right after the disappearance. This individual is a Lock Haven resident familiar with Ray because of reading the Centre Daily Times. This person was traveling from Lock Haven to Harrisburg for a specific purpose that day and noticed the Mini Cooper with Ray driving it.

I do not believe this person has been interviewed nor have there been any media reports of this sighting. Someone should contact Ted McKnight at his home address and phone number in Lock Haven to obtain that individual's name so he can be seriously interviewed. This would conflict with the so called “courthouse sightings” of Ray on that day.

I simply want to know what happened to my friend and colleague Ray Gricar. Starting with my first year as Montour County D.A. in 1992, we became good friends. I enjoyed teasing him about getting me Penn State football tickets. He enjoyed teasing me about my short stature when we played volleyball together at PDAA summer meetings. Ray was an honorable and decent man. We need to do everything we can to solve his disappearance -- for his family, his loved ones, his colleagues and friends, the law enforcement community and the citizens of our Commonwealth.

Would you kindly advise me on the matters raised herein? I remain

Very truly,

Robert W. Buehner, Jr.

District Attorney of Montour County

Cc: Honorable Ted McKnight

JJ - *TAKE NOTE* - the "one block away" comment

Obviously, if you read the letter - Buehner was saying that some witnesses thought they saw RG by the park at the river bridge - where he moved his car - *not* at the Street of Shops parking lot moving his car.

Big Big Difference

Therefore, I think *your* source is wrong.

[J. J. in Phila]

P'gal, at the time he wrote it, Buehner did not know about the parking lot witnesses. That was only reported after the press conference, a month later.

[Politigal]

P'gal, at the time he wrote it, Buehner did not know about the parking lot witnesses. That was only reported after the press conference, a month later.


Where exactly is that reported - no blogs please

[J. J. in Phila]

Witnesses also said Gricar, for some reason, moved his car from one spot to another in the fairly small Street of Shops parking lot, according to Buehner.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t2226.htm

We;ve also discussed this repeatedly here:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=348327

If Buehner knew at the press conference, and I'm not sure if he did, it is because someone told him. Multiple witnesses saw that. The story is correct, and this is at least the third time it's been cited here.

Remember me saying that some folks really don't want the truth? Yet another example.

[Politigal]

Witnesses also said Gricar, for some reason, moved his car from one spot to another in the fairly small Street of Shops parking lot, according to Buehner.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t2226.htm

We;ve also discussed this repeatedly here:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=348327

If Buehner knew at the press conference, and I'm not sure if he did, it is because someone told him. Multiple witnesses saw that. The story is correct, and this is at least the third time it's been cited here.

Remember me saying that some folks really don't want the truth? Yet another example.

JJ, as I said -- that source is obviously wrong because that is *not* what Buehner said in his letter.

IMO, the author of the article in the link you cited is wrong.

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, as I said -- that source is obviously wrong because that is *not* what Buehner said in his letter.

IMO, the author of the article in the link you cited is wrong.

P'gal, I was asked to provide a link, which I have on multiple occasions. It came from the report at the press conference. You will also note that the times are different on the witness list. As I've said, there was a source. I know the source of that and I went over it fairly intensively prior to doing the blog on the witnesses.

Like I said, some people don't really want the truth.

[Politigal]

P'gal, I was asked to provide a link, which I have on multiple occasions. It came from the report at the press conference. You will also note that the times are different on the witness list. As I've said, there was a source. I know the source of that and I went over it fairly intensively prior to doing the blog on the witnesses.

Like I said, some people don't really want the truth.

Your source could be wrong.

True, some people never acknowledge that they might be wrong.

You're #1 on that list.

[Politigal]

This is really a waste of time arguing about anyway IMO --

It's well known that witnesses in these types of case are rarely ever right about who or what they've seen. Too many people look just like other people. Add the power of suggestion by the media.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of missing person cases where the person was spotted here or there...when it was found later they were actually dead during that time frame.

IMO, none of the witnesses prove anything - since there's nothing else to corroborate any of the sightings.....nothing!

[J. J. in Phila]

Your source could be wrong.

True, some people never acknowledge that they might be wrong.

You're #1 on that list.

And you could be wrong, as numerous posts of yours have shown.

I checked the material again; that detail was confirmed multiple times.

And again, other than disproving your theory, it does not point to a specific theory about what happened. It figures in both murder scenarios.

As I keep saying, some people don't really want the truth.

[Politigal]

I want the truth in this case, but I want facts - not some blogger's fantasy of what might have happened.

[J. J. in Phila]

I want the truth in this case, but I want facts - not some blogger's fantasy of what might have happened.

I think that folks can read your posts, and make their own judgments, very easily.

Like I've said, some people don't want the truth. I am not one of them.

[2-B]

JJ, you haven't given us what I asked for, a link to LE saying anything about the witnesses you claim saw RG moving the Mini in the SOS lot.

Some months ago, you claimed the Buehner mentioned these witnesses at last summer's press conference. In fact, you claimed that the writer who reported on the witnesses essentially got the information from Buehner.

Now you claim that the witnesses weren't reported till a month after the press conference and that it's likely Buehner didn't know anything about the witnesses at the time of the press conference.

Which is it?

And where is the link to either a press release from LE or an article in which LE is referenced reporting these witnesses?

[Politigal]

JJ, you haven't given us what I asked for, a link to LE saying anything about the witnesses you claim saw RG moving the Mini in the SOS lot.

Some months ago, you claimed the Buehner mentioned these witnesses at last summer's press conference. In fact, you claimed that the writer who reported on the witnesses essentially got the information from Buehner.

Now you claim that the witnesses weren't reported till a month after the press conference and that it's likely Buehner didn't know anything about the witnesses at the time of the press conference.

Which is it?

And where is the link to either a press release from LE or an article in which LE is referenced reporting these witnesses?

it's apparently locked away in the blog vault....lol

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, you haven't given us what I asked for, a link to LE saying anything about the witnesses you claim saw RG moving the Mini in the SOS lot.

Some months ago, you claimed the Buehner mentioned these witnesses at last summer's press conference. In fact, you claimed that the writer who reported on the witnesses essentially got the information from Buehner.

Now you claim that the witnesses weren't reported till a month after the press conference and that it's likely Buehner didn't know anything about the witnesses at the time of the press conference.

Which is it?

And where is the link to either a press release from LE or an article in which LE is referenced reporting these witnesses?

It is in the cited article, and I checked my sources to see the origin of it prior to blogging on it. You'll just have to deal with it.

Need I say that I checked multiple sources prior to doing the time line on the witnesses? I did, and I know more of the back story than you could imaging. It might come out after a while, but not for several months.

[Politigal]

It is in the cited article, and I checked my sources to see the origin of it prior to blogging on it. You'll just have to deal with it.

Need I say that I checked multiple sources prior to doing the time line on the witnesses? I did, and I know more of the back story than you could imaging. It might come out after a while, but not for several months.

Try looking into your tea leaves or your crystal ball or at the stars and see what I'm "imaging."

lol

[Politigal]

JJ - if you know so much more than the rest of us about this case as you seem to hint repeatedly...why not just spill the freaking beans?

Why waste everyone's time with game playing?

Why not just tell what you know?

[2-B]

Try looking into your tea leaves or your crystal ball or at the stars and see what I'm "imaging."

lol

We're both gonna have to do a lot of "imaging" I guess, Pgal. Nothing in the links provided shows LE reporting witnesses to someone resembling RG moving the Mini in the SOS lot.

Here's what JJ said in January, BTW: he said "parking lot," [B]at the press conference. In his letter, he does not specify where. I do not recall multiple witnesses seeing RFG moving his car someplace else.

(Bolding mine)

Of course, we know that Buehner did indeed specify a location a block away from the SOS. Seems like some folks are confused, or they're "imaging" a lot themselves.

[Politigal]

We're both gonna have to do a lot of "imaging" I guess, Pgal. Nothing in the links provided shows LE reporting witnesses to someone resembling RG moving the Mini in the SOS lot.

Here's what JJ said in January, BTW: he said "parking lot," [B]at the press conference. In his letter, he does not specify where. I do not recall multiple witnesses seeing RFG moving his car someplace else.

(Bolding mine)

Of course, we know that Buehner did indeed specify a location a block away from the SOS. Seems like some folks are confused, or they're "imaging" a lot themselves.

ruh-roh....JJ's got some 'splainin to do....lol

[2-B]

ruh-roh....JJ's got some 'splainin to do....lol

Yep, Pgal. I'd love to hear how Buehner spoke about these alleged witnesses at the press conference when he likely didn't know about them then. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

ruh-roh....JJ's got some 'splainin to do....lol


Buehner knew about moving the car across from the museum. The guy who wrote the article new about moving the car in the parking lot. Buehner just said moving the car.

Let's just say that the subject has been very well discussed, but not here.

[Politigal]

Buehner knew about moving the car across from the museum. The guy who wrote the article new about moving the car in the parking lot. Buehner just said moving the car.

Let's just say that the subject has been very well discussed, but not here.


So, basically, you're now saying that Gricar was in two places at once moving the car that Friday???

[Cloudbuster]

Here is a interesting case about a missing woman back on March 7, 2005. They just now after all this time called a GRAND JURY and now have the spouse of this woman in jail even though there is no body found.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/bal-tetso0618,0,3669211.story

[2-B]

So, basically, you're now saying that Gricar was in two places at once moving the car that Friday???

Yes. And he's also now saying that what he claimed four months ago isn't at all the case.

Four months ago he claimed Buehner was the source of the "moving the car in the SOS lot" information, that Buehner spoke about this at the press conference, and indicated that the journalist formerly known as XX learned about it from Buehner at the press conference. He also said Buehner never specified in the letter where Gricar had been "seen" moving the car.

Fast forward four months and suddenly the claim is that Buehner probably didn't know about the SOS car moving at the press conference, knew about moving the car a block away by the museum, likely only learned about the SOS car moving because "somebody" told him, and that the information wasn't "released" until a month after the press conference.

Fascinating how the story has changed so significantly. Which version of this are we to believe?

And still there is no link indicating that LE has EVER reported this information. Good indication that perhaps we should continue to take with a ton of salt any talk of witnesses reporting that Gricar was "seen" moving the Mini Cooper in the SOS lot on Friday between 5:30 and 6:30.

That story does not jibe with Bennett's report that the car arrived sometime between 5 and 6 on Friday and Dixon's statement that no one saw Gricar park the car there.

[gstickley]

As I keep saying, some people don't really want the truth.

Well, there is a group of people on this board who really do want the truth, but we sure aren't getting it.

[2-B]

Well, there is a group of people on this board who really do want the truth, but we sure aren't getting it.

Amen to that, GS.

[Politigal]

Found this post by "Tokuen" on the comments section of the CDT

Early on, it was discussed that Tokuen may have been RG's ex-wife Barbara Gray. (JKA also wrote about this same article & Tokuen's comments - I seemed to have missed that before, and JKA's link to the article/comments doesn't work now)

JKA's googlepages about Tokuen - refer to section "D"

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/partiii:onlinediscussion

Of course, the real Tokuen may not have been the author of the comments on the CDT. It could have been someone else using her nickname...but then again....

http://www.123people.com/ext/frm?ti=person%20finder&search_term=patty%20fornicola&search_country=US&st=person%20finder&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Fpod01.prospero.com%2Fn%2Fp fx%2Fforum.aspx%3Ftsn%3D1%26nav%3Dmessages%26webta g%3Dkr-centretm%26tid%3D1192&section=weblink&wrt_id=217

Gricar moved in with Patty Fornicola in the fall of 2003 and appears to have promptly paid off her mortgage, even though he was not added to the property deed. He also bought the Mini Cooper and titled it to Fornicola. Was he protecting his assets against a possible lawsuit, or were these "parting" gifts?

IMO, I still think it's possible that PF wanted more than what Gricar was offering.

I'd also like to know if Patty and Ray were planning on attending her niece's wedding that occurred Sat April 16, 2005 and did that occasion spur some sort of argument about marriage (or the lack thereof.)

[Politigal]

wanted to make a slight correction to my post above....

It wasn't Patty's niece who got married that Saturday -- it was Richard Fornicola's daughter...so I guess she would be a cousin?

[sherrijean981]

Here is a interesting case about a missing woman back on March 7, 2005. They just now after all this time called a GRAND JURY and now have the spouse of this woman in jail even though there is no body found.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/bal-tetso0618,0,3669211.story


I remember seeing this in the news years ago. They have some video's with her car showing on it and there were never any sitings of RG, except the Centre County Court House on 4/14/2005.

[Politigal]

Just a very interesting link about the forensic recovery of human remains:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LWvBfASt0coC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=decomposition+of+a+buried+cadaver&source=bl&ots=zisq-u2idd&sig=VKtLFjhI0Kix9kLfO9sCeVHyz8c&hl=en&ei=mR5ASpvPBIKHtgeD7ZyiAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

IMO, Gricar was killed & his remains are buried somewhere near Bellefonte.

[sherrijean981]

Just a very interesting link about the forensic recovery of human remains:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LWvBfASt0coC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=decomposition+of+a+buried+cadaver&source=bl&ots=zisq-u2idd&sig=VKtLFjhI0Kix9kLfO9sCeVHyz8c&hl=en&ei=mR5ASpvPBIKHtgeD7ZyiAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

IMO, Gricar was killed & his remains are buried somewhere near Bellefonte.


You are right, very interesting.

I was looking at photo #3.21 and that photo should be in a puzzle book. Just by looking closely, you can pick out a cat, a dogs head, a wizard, Indian, dragon and ape. If I had a magnifying glass it looked like other objects too.

I know that wasn't what you wanted us to do but I did read the article. I thought of when Carla Barron was in Lewisburg and at that trucking company and how the dogs reacted there, but they were told to get off the property.

I say go to the quarry just outside Bellefonte, towards Jacksonville. PSP should have a divers that could check the place out.

The quarry has been closed off to and posted, but would be a perfect place to get rid of a person. When I lived in Bellefonte they said there were cars in there besides all the large rocks. Who knows what all is in there over the years? By the article you posted a body can put off scent even in the water.

I was amazed at the skeleton under the tree in the one photo. Did anyone plant any new trees in the area in 2005, besides me, of course. :laugh: