The Crockpot redux

[Politigal]

It's been posted about long ago, but it's still something that's in my mind on this case...

It's been said that RG and Patty Fornicola were soulmates...

And, it's been reported that RG & Emma divorced because Emma leaned toward a little more youthful lifestyle.

Yet, Patty Fornicola was 17 years younger than RG and is even younger than Emma.

Could they really have had that much in common?

:shrug:

[Chump#7]

SJ - Do you know when the quarry was supposedly closed?

I knew people who would dive there as late as 2000, and yes, there are cars down there. I knew the guy who owned the dive shop in Port Matilda and a few people who took lessons there in their pool. They would do the quarry.

[sherrijean981]

SJ - Do you know when the quarry was supposedly closed?

I knew people who would dive there as late as 2000, and yes, there are cars down there. I knew the guy who owned the dive shop in Port Matilda and a few people who took lessons there in their pool. They would do the quarry.

Wasn't it posted at that time? That surprises me.

I lived in Bellefonte in the 70's and even then they were not supposed to be in it. Someone had died there and it was said then it had been posted. I do remember there had been a news article about it being posted and I had seen a web site about the quarry. It mentioned on there they were no longer allowed to access it. Maybe BPD could tell you that.

I really would like to know what is down in the quarry.

[sherrijean981]

SJ - Do you know when the quarry was supposedly closed?

I knew people who would dive there as late as 2000, and yes, there are cars down there. I knew the guy who owned the dive shop in Port Matilda and a few people who took lessons there in their pool. They would do the quarry.

Here is a link where it says it is private property now and never was open.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/Pennsylvania/Southcentral_Region/Bellefonte_Quarry/

[sherrijean981]

Here is a link where it says it is private property now and never was open.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/Pennsylvania/Southcentral_Region/Bellefonte_Quarry/

Here you can see it was posted:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cptspock/sets/72157600080494832/

From some of the photo's I have been seeing of the quarries, it is very possible to disappear a person there.

[sherrijean981]

SJ - Do you know when the quarry was supposedly closed?

I knew people who would dive there as late as 2000, and yes, there are cars down there. I knew the guy who owned the dive shop in Port Matilda and a few people who took lessons there in their pool. They would do the quarry.


This article mentions the death in 1978 I remembered and a more recent I had seen. If people would just listen. What bothered me in this article is the fact it was in 2005 and it mentions satanic writing on the walls. With all the Sheriffs vehicles being spray painted maybe they should check the quarry to see if they can catch the culprets red handed.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MineRescue/message/2318

[Chump#7]

I've been to the quarry more than a few times. Whatever posts there were about it being off limits are totally ignored - seems to be the case to this day from the rock climbing posts.

Every time I was there - I would say there were at least 50+ people there in different areas - swimming, diving, rock climbing, partying (there are other 'areas' to 'the quarry' than just 'the quarry'...

If I was familiar with the area and trying to dump a body there - I'd know that there would probably be somebody there and wouldn't risk it.

Same goes for the 'off limits' caves. There are maps of them in Petit. I've known many a spelunker to do the various 'off limits' caves. Is J4 (the most popular) off limits?

[Politigal]

I've been to the quarry more than a few times. Whatever posts there were about it being off limits are totally ignored - seems to be the case to this day from the rock climbing posts.

Every time I was there - I would say there were at least 50+ people there in different areas - swimming, diving, rock climbing, partying (there are other 'areas' to 'the quarry' than just 'the quarry'...

If I was familiar with the area and trying to dump a body there - I'd know that there would probably be somebody there and wouldn't risk it.

Same goes for the 'off limits' caves. There are maps of them in Petit. I've known many a spelunker to do the various 'off limits' caves. Is J4 (the most popular) off limits?

plus, some of the posts linked talked about heightened patrols at the quarry area.

I think if someone were trying to dispose of a body, they would likely go to some area they were very familiar with and not just some random site.

[Politigal]

There was a post on this thread yesterday about Gov Mark Sanford and how he took off for a few days without telling family or co-workers....in comparison to Gricar's disappearance.

Here's today's news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/24/south.carolina.governor/index.html


It just goes to show ya'....there's usually always some motive/reason for an intentional walkaway or getaway.

We've learned nothing about any reasons for Gricar to have disappeared like that.

[puzzled]

So the fact that Chump says that many people gp to the quarries makes me wonder if the red and white mini supposedly coming out of the quarry area April 15th 2005 was someone elses? We certainly have no proof that it was Ray's I think TG may have said something about it at some point but I can not remember what he said. I dunno about you guys but I want S1 back! Not only that but is it just me or has JJ been talking about possible murder lately?

[Cloudbuster]

After a lot of walking along an ATV trail littered with odd bits of clothing, old car parts and even a junked car overturned in a ditch, we came to a "Danger: No Trespassing" sign facing the area we had just come through. We figured we must have missed the quarry and should head out in the opposite direction
http://bellafontana.blogspot.com/2005/06/quarry-is-no-place-for-spectators.html
Wednesday, June 29, 2005

[Cloudbuster]

http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&sa=1&q=+Quarry+Bellefonte+PA&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rocklist.com/dataguide/pictures/bellefonte-20000828.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.rocklist.com/servlet/AreasUI%3FareaId%3D101086&usg=__UfaBVW9KlvfF1xCgCVpxTIlOivw=&h=500&w=331&sz=128&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=SBz8tGfKiP1anM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3DQuarry%2BBellefonte%2BPA%26gbv%3D2%26 hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26ie%3DUTF-8

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rocklist.com/dataguide/pictures/bellefonte-20000828.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.rocklist.com/servlet/AreasUI%3FareaId%3D101086&usg=__UfaBVW9KlvfF1xCgCVpxTIlOivw=&h=500&w=331&sz=128&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=SBz8tGfKiP1anM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3DQuarry%2BBellefonte%2BPA%26gbv%3D2%26 hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26ie%3DUTF-8

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NnehOEeNfW6OithC9kGU1w
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder why they are calling it witness relocation program???????? weird very
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Misc/Witness_Relocation_Program_79876.html
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http://www.c3pa.org/death_star_quarry
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http://www.depweb.state.pa.us/ncregion/lib/ncregion/i99/reports_documentations/Observations_Relevant_to_Selecting_Options_for_Rem ediation_I-99.pdf

[Cloudbuster]

The top quarry death star, has a 40 foot deepness to it. Sometimes I think they should drag them ponds to see if maybe any of the missing people may be there. There was someone on the lion board way back that didn't want me near that quarry. My thoughts are where there is a quarry usually there is equipment. That peaks my interest. Can i go there no but would like to. I also am interested in the pond that LW said is way back on the quarry grounds that a red mini came out of. Sometimes I wonder if RG was taken there and another person drove his car out of that quarry and parked it and moved it and parked it after settling on where they wanted that car positioned.

[sherrijean981]

I've been to the quarry more than a few times. Whatever posts there were about it being off limits are totally ignored - seems to be the case to this day from the rock climbing posts.

Every time I was there - I would say there were at least 50+ people there in different areas - swimming, diving, rock climbing, partying (there are other 'areas' to 'the quarry' than just 'the quarry'...

If I was familiar with the area and trying to dump a body there - I'd know that there would probably be somebody there and wouldn't risk it.

Same goes for the 'off limits' caves. There are maps of them in Petit. I've known many a spelunker to do the various 'off limits' caves. Is J4 (the most popular) off limits?


RG disappeared in April. Probably no one around the quarry at that time of year. Whether climbing or swimming.

From what I was reading on the sites I googled, there were supposed to be a lot of signs up around all the property owned by the Quarry company. And if you went on some of the sites they no longer have info on the quarries because it is illegal to go there. the direction links don't work.

Seems to me they could have put DZ at the quarry to monitor the walls and quarry instead of the job they had said he was to get monitoring the halls of the schools (which didn't happen).

Make a 24/7 shift the newbies in LE or graduates from the Tech schools in justice work, have to do for on the job training.

[sherrijean981]

There was a post on this thread yesterday about Gov Mark Sanford and how he took off for a few days without telling family or co-workers....in comparison to Gricar's disappearance.

Here's today's news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/24/south.carolina.
governor/index.html


It just goes to show ya'....there's usually always some motive/reason for an intentional walkaway or getaway.

We've learned nothing about any reasons for Gricar to have disappeared like that.


I can't link your post but if it was what I heard last night about him meeting his mistress, I think the SC taxpayers should start checking his receipts to see who is paying for his little 4 day trips.

What a pig!

[sherrijean981]

So the fact that Chump says that many people gp to the quarries makes me wonder if the red and white mini supposedly coming out of the quarry area April 15th 2005 was someone elses? We certainly have no proof that it was Ray's I think TG may have said something about it at some point but I can not remember what he said. I dunno about you guys but I want S1 back! Not only that but is it just me or has JJ been talking about possible murder lately?


I miss S1 too. We went to the local mall last night and parked beside a red and white Mini convertable. We got a chance to see the inside while the top was down on it. A very nice looking car although I am not sure the seats look comfortable. I would love to take my little day trips in one of those.

The quarry that Mini came out of was on Rt 192 in Lewisburg. That was the one with all the little ponds around it. When they say LE checked the place out, was it with dogs, did they drag the ponds?
And what about the one over the Lewisburg bridge on Rt 45, on the right. It also had ponds on it. I know TG said he and his brother went in there too. The day I was down there it was not gated.

[sherrijean981]

So the fact that Chump says that many people gp to the quarries makes me wonder if the red and white mini supposedly coming out of the quarry area April 15th 2005 was someone elses? We certainly have no proof that it was Ray's I think TG may have said something about it at some point but I can not remember what he said. I dunno about you guys but I want S1 back! Not only that but is it just me or has JJ been talking about possible murder lately?


I haven't seen any posts from JJ. Where the heck is he now? Come back S1, I miss you too!

[sherrijean981]

After a lot of walking along an ATV trail littered with odd bits of clothing, old car parts and even a junked car overturned in a ditch, we came to a "Danger: No Trespassing" sign facing the area we had just come through. We figured we must have missed the quarry and should head out in the opposite direction
http://bellafontana.blogspot.com/2005/06/quarry-is-no-place-for-spectators.html
Wednesday, June 29, 2005

One of the sites I was on said there was an old rail car in the quarry. From some of the sites I was reading sounds like there are a couple different quarries owned by 2 companies. I was looking for info on the one off Jacksonville Rd. just outside Bellefonte.

[Politigal]

*If* RG was alive that Friday morning....and IMO he was not....

WHERE was he before the call was placed at approx 11:30am?

The call was supposedly to let Patty know he wouldn't be there to let the dog out at noon.

And that supposed fact is still a real puzzler to me. Because he probably would have let the dog out before he left the house IMO.

No one has come forward (that we know of) to say they saw or spoke to RG that morning. No other calls were made out on his phone that day to set up some meeting or alert anyone at the office he wouldn't be there. He didn't email anyone either.

No one saw him leave the home. No one saw him driving anywhere in Bellefonte. No one saw him at a convenience store or gas station or a donut shop or at a bank. So, if he got up shortly after Patty left, and then headed out...where did he go before he made the call?

And, if he left home shortly before the call, it really blows away the premise about the dog IMO.

:shrug:

[2-B]

And, if he left home shortly before the call, it really blows away the premise about the dog IMO.



I've always found that to be a very puzzling aspect to this story.

[sherrijean981]

We were discussing the Bellefonte Quarry and I had said I was wondering about the Jacksonville Quarry and last night I found this article on the quarry being searched.

This is the 2nd murdered woman case this year where a 2nd person is being questioned who saw what went on. In the other case there had been 3 men involved in the murder, or so says the guy in jail. One of those 3 committed suicide afterwards, one had a DNA done this past fall/winter.

In this case the suspected murderer committed suicide in the fall last year. The 2nd man is confessing to having seen the man commit the murder. He led them to the Jacksonville Quarry as to where the body is but after many hours of searching and digging they found nothing - yet.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1368914.html

Wonder if it will take 10 to 30 years for someone to come forward in RG's case?

[Politigal]

rereading archived articles --

http://s10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=2226

When he bought his Mini Cooper, he paid cash and registered it in Fornicola's name. Zaccagni said Fornicola told him Gricar did this as a precaution in case he was ever sued for wrongful prosecution, or something of the sort, Zaccagni said.

as opposed to JKA's views:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

it was stated by Ray to the staff to have been a gift. His paramour had a small model of the car in her office and of course the vanity plate. The first time I heard the fear of lawsuit rationale was in media reports following his disappearance. I suppose he could have styled it a gift for reasons of his own.



However, the second and perhaps more important reason is why Ray would have had this concern at all. Centre County did, and I assume still does, maintain professional liability insurance for the types of situations where an attorney in the office or the office itself is sued. Cases of that sort which came into the DA's office tended to involve irate defendants. I can think of no instance in the 18 years I worked at the Office where any of these suits was ever successful. An elected DA in Pennsylvania enjoys large, and largely unreviewable, discretion in most aspects of decision-making. I believe that Ray would have known that the chance of a successful suit based on any discretionary decision he made as DA was infinitesimal, and even then would be covered by the insurance policy.


It might present a different situation if the rationale were that he feared being successfully sued in some personal aspect of his life. But every account at least that I have read has linked his fear of loss to lawsuits arising from decisions he made as District Attorney. It simply seems to me very implausible that Ray would have considered that sort of lawsuit a serious or realistic risk to his personal property, and he would have had twenty years of experience to the contrary.





:shrug:

[Politigal]

just a little mini timeline of things that occurred specifically in March 2005, just prior to the disappearance.....it looks like March is key.....IMO

RG & PF anniversary of moving in together (March 2002)
Spotts saying RG was "out of it" at a death penalty hearing
Computer searches were done on RG/PF's home computer for "how to fry a hard drive," etc
PF said RG was complaining of fatigue & taking naps and she urged him to see a doctor
RG was part of the heroine drug bust announcement with the AG's office

[gstickley]

Questions that have never been answered:

*What time did RG get home on 04/14/05 after leaving courthouse?
*What happened after RG got home? (snack? watch TV? talk? read? go straight to bed? work on computer? what?)
*On morning of 04/15/05, did RG say he was not going to work?
*Was RG scheduled to work the entire day on 04/15/05?
*Was RG scheduled to take off morning but work afternoon of 04/15/05?
*Was the phone call about taking the entire day off work?
*Was the phone call about taking the afternoon off work?
*Was the phone call about taking care of the dog?
*What notification was made to DA's office about RG working or not on 04/15/05?

Until these questions have been answered, the possibility that RG did not return home on 04/14/05 will always be there.

[J. J. in Phila]

just a little mini timeline of things that occurred specifically in March 2005, just prior to the disappearance.....it looks like March is key.....IMO

RG & PF anniversary of moving in together (March 2002)
Spotts saying RG was "out of it" at a death penalty hearing
Computer searches were done on RG/PF's home computer for "how to fry a hard drive," etc
PF said RG was complaining of fatigue & taking naps and she urged him to see a doctor
RG was part of the heroine drug bust announcement with the AG's office


I don't believe the March 2002 is correct for the move in. I think it was late 2003. The 2002 date was in the DC while I think the PPG put it in late 2003, at the earliest.

I'm also not sure if the searches were done in March and not April. One source, IIRC said there were in the last month, which includes April.

[J. J. in Phila]

Questions that have never been answered:

*What time did RG get home on 04/14/05 after leaving courthouse?
*What happened after RG got home? (snack? watch TV? talk? read? go straight to bed? work on computer? what?)


These were not asked by the press. I would strongly suspect they were asked by LE.


*On morning of 04/15/05, did RG say he was not going to work?



*Was RG scheduled to work the entire day on 04/15/05?


Yes, though Dixon misstated it on 4/18/05. The first public confirmation was from LG.


*Was RG scheduled to take off morning but work afternoon of 04/15/05?


He's in charge; he doesn't have to schedule. There was no business that required him to be present.


*Was the phone call about taking the entire day off work?
*Was the phone call about taking the afternoon off work?


No.


*Was the phone call about taking care of the dog?



*What notification was made to DA's office about RG working or not on 04/15/05?


E-mail, IIRC.


Until these questions have been answered, the possibility that RG did not return home on 04/14/05 will always be there.

Okay, the possibility that RFG didn't return home on 4/14 has been eliminated.

[J. J. in Phila]

So the fact that Chump says that many people gp to the quarries makes me wonder if the red and white mini supposedly coming out of the quarry area April 15th 2005 was someone elses? We certainly have no proof that it was Ray's I think TG may have said something about it at some point but I can not remember what he said. I dunno about you guys but I want S1 back! Not only that but is it just me or has JJ been talking about possible murder lately?

Quarries produce dust; limestone quarries produce very noticeable dust. We've even asked TG about the condition of Mini. No dust.

I give murder as being 42% likely; I give walkaway as being 48% likely. That is not a big difference.

I have two murder scenarios posted. One is unlikely, but the second is not. I've never not been talking about murder.

I've written one blog, that probably will not be up until Sunday, and it will not point to walkaway. I'm writing one now that does, partially. I'm planning one for late next week that will definitely point to murder.

Don't obsess on the computer searches or anything related to the drive being tossed. It's very possible, RFG tossed the drive, and then was murdered. It's very probable he tossed the drive.

[Politigal]

I don't believe the March 2002 is correct for the move in. I think it was late 2003. The 2002 date was in the DC while I think the PPG put it in late 2003, at the earliest.

I'm also not sure if the searches were done in March and not April. One source, IIRC said there were in the last month, which includes April.

this article said PF & RG moved in together in March 2002:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/12/12-09-05tdc/12-09-05dnews-09.asp

this article said Gricar had moved in *more* than 18 months before April 2005, but that comment was made by a neighbor/former co-worker of Patty, who had only lived in the neighborhood about a yr:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05109/490420-85.stm

the video in this link states that the computer searches occurred a month before the disappearance:

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

Chief Weaver told a reporter from WTAJ on April 15, 2009 that "a month before his disappearance" Gricar searched "how to fry a hard drive" and "water damage to computer" on his personal computer.

Now, please provide your link/source about the computer searches.

[Politigal]

snipped

Okay, the possibility that RFG didn't return home on 4/14 has been eliminated.

No it hasn't.

You posted *your* opinions....nothing factual.

You have no proof that Dixon made any "misstatements." Period.

You may be "Lord High" on your blog where you control the content & any responses....but you are not Lord High on the Gricar case. You are merely another poster with way too big of an ego.

jmho

[gstickley]

(snip)
Okay, the possibility that RFG didn't return home on 4/14 has been eliminated.

ROTFLMAO . . . Does red ink eventually cause brain problems???? I think it must!

The "possibility that RG didn't return home on 04/14" has not been eliminated & will not be eliminated just because some self-proclaimed super guru or blobber says so.

[J. J. in Phila]

this article said PF & RG moved in together in March 2002:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/12/12-09-05tdc/12-09-05dnews-09.asp

this article said Gricar had moved in *more* than 18 months before April 2005, but that comment was made by a neighbor/former co-worker of Patty, who had only lived in the neighborhood about a yr:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05109/490420-85.stm

the video in this link states that the computer searches occurred a month before the disappearance:

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

Chief Weaver told a reporter from WTAJ on April 15, 2009 that "a month before his disappearance" Gricar searched "how to fry a hard drive" and "water damage to computer" on his personal computer.

Now, please provide your link/source about the computer searches.

18 months seems consistent with the PPG story and the dating of when RFG made his inquiries. They may have been "a couple" in 2002, but not living together.

The sole reference to "month," singular in the article you cited was this: The Chief said the department gets about one tip a month about the cold case.

I have not seen any time frame other than when LE took the computer and when RFG purchased it.

[Politigal]

18 months seems consistent with the PPG story and the dating of when RFG made his inquiries. They may have been "a couple" in 2002, but not living together.

The sole reference to "month," singular in the article you cited was this: The Chief said the department gets about one tip a month about the cold case.

I have not seen any time frame other than when LE took the computer and when RFG purchased it.

surely since you've gradyeated from Penn State you know how to watch a video??

The video I linked to said that Weaver said the computer searches were done a month before the disappearance.

[J. J. in Phila]

ROTFLMAO . . . Does red ink eventually cause brain problems???? I think it must!

The "possibility that RG didn't return home on 04/14" has not been eliminated & will not be eliminated just because some self-proclaimed super guru or blobber says so.

Well, you and P'gal do post in red ink at times.

You set the criteria, and by your criteria, RFG was in Lewisburg. Fortunately, I use a bit tighter criteria.

[2-B]

The "possibility that RG didn't return home on 04/14" has not been eliminated

The alleged definitive answers by the self-proclaimed Lord High Guy are, as Pgal says, just opinions.

Here's my opinion:

Either RG was scheduled to take time off (whether it was a whole day or a half day) that Friday, or he was not.

LHG says he was scheduled to work that day and that whatever Dixon said was a "misstakement."

Other sources say variously that he was scheduled "off work" for both Thursday and Friday, for all of Friday, or for half of Friday.

I have never seen any statement from LE in general or from Dixon specifically indicating that what Dixon said in the press conference was in error. LHG has in the past tried to explain the discrepancy by telling us that Dixon was uncomfortable speaking to the press. I have seen only statements that Dixon was not used to the national press attention the RG case received, and that is understandable, since nothing in the BPD's jurisdiction has ever been in the national spotlight quite the way RG's disappearance was in the first few weeks after RG went missing. As far as Chief Dixon being uncomfortable speaking to the press, however, I say poppycock. Dixon always chose his words carefully and spoke professionally, and this has not been the case with all involved in RG's disappearance.

My opinion on that issue is that the question of whether RG was scheduled to work or not that Friday has never been satisfactorily answered, and someone else's opinion on the issue doesn't create a satisfactory answer.

[2-B]

Well, you and P'gal do post in red ink at times.

You set the criteria, and by your criteria, RFG was in Lewisburg. Fortunately, I use a bit tighter criteria.

Say what?

When have GS and Pgal ever set and used criteria that definitively placed RG in Lewisburg?

[J. J. in Phila]

surely since you've gradyeated from Penn State you know how to watch a video??

The video I linked to said that Weaver said the computer searches were done a month before the disappearance.

I used the actual written story, which gets nicely checked. It was the reporter who said, a month, and excised that from the story. :rolleyes:

Like I've said, some folks don't want real answers to the case.

[gstickley]

Say what?

When have GS and Pgal ever set and used criteria that definitively placed RG in Lewisburg?

More smoke & mirrors. 2-B. I've never come close "set & used criteria that definitely placed RG in Lewisburg", as nothing/nobody has ever proven RG was in Lewisburg. And I've never seen Pgal do so either.

[gstickley]

Well, you and P'gal do post in red ink at times.

You set the criteria, and by your criteria, RFG was in Lewisburg. Fortunately, I use a bit tighter criteria.

I have never posted in red ink.

I have never seen it proven that RG was in Lewisburg.

I don't care about your criteria.

And, no, the possibility that RG never went home on 04/14 has not been eliminated.

[Politigal]

I used the actual written story, which gets nicely checked. It was the reporter who said, a month, and excised that from the story. :rolleyes:

Like I've said, some folks don't want real answers to the case.


So basically, it just boils down to the fact (once again) that you have no other source for when the computer searches were done as opposed to the source I provided - which said they were done a month before the disappearance.

And you say *we* look foolish.....

[2-B]

So basically, it just boils down to the fact (once again) that you have no other source for when the computer searches were done as opposed to the source I provided - which said they were done a month before the disappearance.

And you say *we* look foolish.....


On Wednesday, Shawn Weaver defended the way his department has handled the investigation into the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar over the past four years.

Also, he explained why his department released new information about the former district attorney's computer searches only now.

“He was searching for information about Window Washer 5.0, wipe drives on the search engine, there was questions pertaining to how to erase a hard drive,” Weaver said.

Gricar also searched “how to fry a computer hard drive” and “water damage to a computer hard drive” on his personal computer. . . . Weaver told WTAJ News investigators found an opened box that at one time contained hard drive erasing software. It is his belief Gricar used that software on his county issued laptop.

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

Investigators previously had disclosed that they had, through interviews, heard that Gricar was talking about ways to erase a hard drive with friends and colleagues about 16 months before he disappeared. A box for such software was seen at his house around January 2004.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228995.html#ixzz0L3n3XNXM&C

Regardless of whether the searches were done "a month before" RG's disappearance or "within the month prior to the disappearance," other serious questions about this issue remain on the table IMO.

1. If LE can prove that RG talked with friends and colleagues about ways to erase a hard drive in early 2004, and if a box for software to erase a hard drive was seen in the house where he lived in early 2004, is there a receipt to show that RG himself purchased the software? Or verification that RG himself borrowed the software from a friend or colleague?

2. Perhaps more important: if RG was interested in erasing a hard drive in early 2004 and actually had software to accomplish this in early 2004, what need would there be to search for "information on “Window Washer 5.0” and other hard-drive erasing products" (CDT, 4/15/2009)?

Are we being led to believe that a man who reportedly already had hard drive erasure software is still searching on the internet (on his home computer, not the drive he wishes to erase) for hard drive erasure software approximately 14 months after he already has possession of said software? Are we being led to believe that this same man--a 59-year-old non-technophile attorney--would use search terminology like "how to fry a hard drive"?

If someone planned to kill RG, it would take only knowing that he had talked with friends and colleagues about ways to erase a hard drive--and personal or remote access to his home computer--to set up searches making it look as if RG himself was interested in doing more than erasing a hard drive before returning it to the county.

And that's true whether the searches were done "a month before" or "within the month prior to" RG's disappearance.

My opinion, to which I am entitled. (Thanks, GS, for the disclaimer wording.)

[Politigal]

I still believe since the searches were done on the home computer - in the home shared with Patty Fornicola - that she quite possibly could have done them.

Who knows...maybe she wanted to "fry" the hard drive on one of her work laptops....

And I'm assuming law enforcement didn't take a look at any of her laptops.

[puzzled]

I wonder if law enforcement has ever asked PF if she did the computer searches about frying a hard drive? Perhaps LE believes in the don't ask don't tell policy?:wink:

[Cloudbuster]

just a little mini timeline of things that occurred specifically in March 2005, just prior to the disappearance.....it looks like March is key.....IMO

RG & PF anniversary of moving in together (March 2002)
Spotts saying RG was "out of it" at a death penalty hearing
Computer searches were done on RG/PF's home computer for "how to fry a hard drive," etc
PF said RG was complaining of fatigue & taking naps and she urged him to see a doctor
RG was part of the heroine drug bust announcement with the AG's office

Maybe we should stroll back to March 2002 and see if anything was going on back then??

[J. J. in Phila]

Say what?

When have GS and Pgal ever set and used criteria that definitively placed RG in Lewisburg?


Then go back and reread. GS said that until the questions were answered, we wouldn't know if RFG went home on 4/14/05. They have been, so be her standards, she knows.

My standards are a bit stricter.

[Politigal]

Then go back and reread. GS said that until the questions were answered, we wouldn't know if RFG went home on 4/14/05. They have been, so be her standards, she knows.

My standards are a bit stricter.

Your post makes absolutely no sense....if anyone needs to reread it is you. You need to learn how to proofread your own posts (and it wouldn't hurt to do that on your blog as well.)

sheesh

[J. J. in Phila]

I have never posted in red ink.

I have never seen it proven that RG was in Lewisburg.

I don't care about your criteria.

And, no, the possibility that RG never went home on 04/14 has not been eliminated.


You listed the criteria. By your criteria, it was demonstrated.

Now, as it happens, I don't use your criteria.

I found out recently that my criteria is a bit tighter that LE's criteria.

[2-B]

Your post makes absolutely no sense....if anyone needs to reread it is you. You need to learn how to proofread your own posts (and it wouldn't hurt to do that on your blog as well.)

sheesh

Thanks for requesting that at least some minimal proofreading be done, Pgal. My eyeballs were bleeding.

Apparently LHG continues to believe his own hype and continues to think that his **opinions** are sufficient to act as definitive answers.

Quoting S1 again: balderdash!

Facts are objective and verifiable. Neither adjective applies to the alleged "answers" given to GS's questions.

1. I would strongly suspect they [questions about Thursday evening activities] were asked by LE: not a definitive answer, just a guess that LE asked PF about Thursday evening activities. No answer to GS's question about what time RG got home; no answer to what RG and/or PF did after RG returned from the courthouse.

2. Dixon misstated it [the scheduled/not scheduled/whole day/half day thing] on 4/18/05: not a definitive answer. Who says Dixon misstated it? Dixon himself? Any official confirmation from LE that this version was inaccurate? If so, please provide the source.

3. The first public confirmation was from LG: with all due respect to Lara Gricar, LG was in the dark about these kinds of details. She lived 3,000 miles away, after all, and could only rely on what was told to her after she arrived back East. Her May 4 interview with GVS shows that she was able to answer confidently and in detail any questions about her father, his personality, that sort of thing, but details about the day of his disappearance she readily concedes she is uncertain about.

" I think it was a very brief conversation."
" For lunch, I believe. I’m not completely certain."
" I get the feeling that it was a significant amount, but I’m really not certain on those facts, either."
" Not to my knowledge, nothing that we’re, you know, taking very seriously, I don’t think."

What she says about the contents of the phone call repeat practically verbatim what's on the family website and what PF told LE. That's as expected, but it doesn't prove Lara Gricar "confirmed" anything about RG's schedule for that day. She's just repeating what she's been told.

4. He's in charge; he doesn't have to schedule: I don't believe LHG has ever been The Guy in Charge. If he had, he'd appreciate that TGIC actually has more to consider when taking time away from work than most subordinate employees do.

5. No, [the phone call wasn't about taking the day or the afternoon off]. Source? Not definitive unless this comes from a reliable, proven source. Only two people know the contents of that phone call. One is missing.

6. E-mail, IIRC [re staff notification]: and yet KA does not remember getting any such email. Your proof that such an email was sent out? Not your assumption or guess that it was, but your proof.

7. Okay, the possibility that RFG didn't return home on 4/14 has been eliminated.

Obviously, those answers don't satisfy anyone who wants objective, verifiable information rather than guesses and opinion.

But let's say all those answers are correct. Now LHG is saying not only do the alleged answers eliminate the possibility that RG didn't come home Thursday, but they also prove that Gricar was in Lewisburg.

But if we knew that

he came home at 9:27 p.m., had a glass of milk and chocolate chip cookies, watched a re-run of Law and Order;

he hadn't been scheduled to work that Friday;

the phone call was about dog care; and

the staff received an email about his absence--


none of that places Ray Gricar in Lewisburg!

[gstickley]

Thank you for your patience, 2-B, in wading through the gobbledygook.

You know, the more the gobbledygook, the more questions I have.

But for today, these questions remain unanswered by anyone in authority.

*What time did RG get home on 04/14/05 after leaving courthouse?
*What happened after RG got home? (snack? watch TV? talk? read? go straight to bed? work on computer? what?)
*On morning of 04/15/05, did RG say he was not going to work?
*Was RG scheduled to work the entire day on 04/15/05?
*Was RG scheduled to take off morning but work afternoon of 04/15/05?
*Was the phone call about taking the entire day off work?
*Was the phone call about taking the afternoon off work?
*Was the phone call about taking care of the dog?
*What notification was made to DA's office about RG working or not on 04/15/05?

Until these questions have been answered, the possibility that RG did not return home on 04/14/05 will always be there

[2-B]

Thank you for your patience, 2-B, in wading through the gobbledygook.



No problem, GS.

A few days ago while wading through some other gobbledygook, I mentioned that this case has enough inherent issues with trying to sort out the truth, that what we needed here was attempts to clarify, not more attempts to muddy the waters. I said that for my part, I would work toward clarity rather than muddying because Ray Gricar deserved it.

I intend to keep my promise for Ray's sake.

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for requesting that at least some minimal proofreading be done, Pgal. My eyeballs were bleeding.

Apparently LHG continues to believe his own hype and continues to think that his **opinions** are sufficient to act as definitive answers.

Quoting S1 again: balderdash!

Facts are objective and verifiable. Neither adjective applies to the alleged "answers" given to GS's questions.

1. I would strongly suspect they [questions about Thursday evening activities] were asked by LE: not a definitive answer, just a guess that LE asked PF about Thursday evening activities. No answer to GS's question about what time RG got home; no answer to what RG and/or PF did after RG returned from the courthouse.

2. Dixon misstated it [the scheduled/not scheduled/whole day/half day thing] on 4/18/05: not a definitive answer. Who says Dixon misstated it? Dixon himself? Any official confirmation from LE that this version was inaccurate? If so, please provide the source.

3. The first public confirmation was from LG: with all due respect to Lara Gricar, LG was in the dark about these kinds of details. She lived 3,000 miles away, after all, and could only rely on what was told to her after she arrived back East. Her May 4 interview with GVS shows that she was able to answer confidently and in detail any questions about her father, his personality, that sort of thing, but details about the day of his disappearance she readily concedes she is uncertain about.

" I think it was a very brief conversation."
" For lunch, I believe. I’m not completely certain."
" I get the feeling that it was a significant amount, but I’m really not certain on those facts, either."
" Not to my knowledge, nothing that we’re, you know, taking very seriously, I don’t think."

What she says about the contents of the phone call repeat practically verbatim what's on the family website and what PF told LE. That's as expected, but it doesn't prove Lara Gricar "confirmed" anything about RG's schedule for that day. She's just repeating what she's been told.

4. He's in charge; he doesn't have to schedule: I don't believe LHG has ever been The Guy in Charge. If he had, he'd appreciate that TGIC actually has more to consider when taking time away from work than most subordinate employees do.

5. No, [the phone call wasn't about taking the day or the afternoon off]. Source? Not definitive unless this comes from a reliable, proven source. Only two people know the contents of that phone call. One is missing.

6. E-mail, IIRC [re staff notification]: and yet KA does not remember getting any such email. Your proof that such an email was sent out? Not your assumption or guess that it was, but your proof.

7. Okay, the possibility that RFG didn't return home on 4/14 has been eliminated.

Obviously, those answers don't satisfy anyone who wants objective, verifiable information rather than guesses and opinion.

But let's say all those answers are correct. Now LHG is saying not only do the alleged answers eliminate the possibility that RG didn't come home Thursday, but they also prove that Gricar was in Lewisburg.

But if we knew that

he came home at 9:27 p.m., had a glass of milk and chocolate chip cookies, watched a re-run of Law and Order;

he hadn't been scheduled to work that Friday;

the phone call was about dog care; and

the staff received an email about his absence--


none of that places Ray Gricar in Lewisburg!

1. As has been noted PEF was intensely questioned, 4/14 events are likely.

2-3. It was TG or BW noted that the half day comment came from the press conference of 4/18; where did LG get her information? Not from the press conference.

4. Of couse the DA is in charge of the DA's Office. He determines when he can come and go. There were no canceled court appearances for that day. :rolleyes:

5. It has been repeatedly sourced. Try here: http://raygricar.com/

6. JKA remembered virtually nothing about the day, nor the last time she saw RFG, by her own admission. That might speak to her own memory, but not the case.

[2-B]

1. As has been noted PEF was intensely questioned, 4/14 events are likely.

2-3. It was TG or BW noted that the half day comment came from the press conference of 4/18; where did LG get her information? Not from the press conference.

4. Of couse the DA is in charge of the DA's Office. He determines when he can come and go. There were no canceled court appearances for that day. :rolleyes:

5. It has been repeatedly sourced. Try here: http://raygricar.com/

6. JKA remembered virtually nothing about the day, nor the last time she saw RFG, by her own admission. That might speak to her own memory, but not the case.

1. PF was questioned. Was she asked what time RG came home on Thursday night? Was she asked what RG did after he returned home? What were her answers?

You don't know and you haven't provided answers to GS's questions.

2-3. LG repeated what was told to her. Where did that information come from?

You have no proof of whether RG was scheduled to work that day and just woke up saying he was going to play hooky, or whether he'd been scheduled for a half or a whole day off. You haven't answered GS's question.

4. Never said the DA wasn't in charge of the DA's office. I said LHG had never been the guy in charge of anything and clearly didn't know that being TGIC requires more responsibility when taking time off than for a subordinate taking time off. The claim "he doesn't have to schedule anything" reflects a lack of understanding of what it means to be TGIC. :rolleyes:

5. Only two people know the contents of that phone call. One is missing.

You don't know what was said in that phone call. You haven't answered GS's question.

6. Where is your proof that such an email was sent out? Not your assumption or guess that it was, but your proof.

You haven't answered GS's question.

[Politigal]

No problem, GS.

A few days ago while wading through some other gobbledygook, I mentioned that this case has enough inherent issues with trying to sort out the truth, that what we needed here was attempts to clarify, not more attempts to muddy the waters. I said that for my part, I would work toward clarity rather than muddying because Ray Gricar deserved it.

I intend to keep my promise for Ray's sake.

Thanks for taking the lead in cutting through the fog. It's about time we make *clarity* a priority on this board.

[2-B]

Thanks for taking the lead in cutting through the fog. It's about time we make *clarity* a priority on this board.

Hey, my bumpersticker has always been "eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation"! LOL.

It's way past time. No more muddy waters.

[sherrijean981]

Hey, my bumpersticker has always been "eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation"! LOL.

It's way past time. No more muddy waters.


Wow, you and UTR have the same bumpersticker! I thought they couldn't duplicate them???

[sherrijean981]

I would really like to come on here and be able to read the posts that are being posted. Too many boldings, iniatials I don't recognize, and back and forth battles.

Guess my time is done here!

[Cloudbuster]

SJ I don't think you should quit you came too far to throw your ball and bat in! I do understand how you feel though. I have been accused by S1 for getting him banned which is totally Not true. I don't care who believes me or not!!!! I just think its a shame that he believes that I did. That's okay he has a right to believe what he believes. I am also not going to not post about that paranormal tape no matter who it bothers. Im sorry but if that happened to someone else I do believe they too would follow thru with what they believe in. I am NOT demented. I also believe everyone on here brings many things to the board each with their own style. -2b is very scientific and accurate. JJ has a way of making you go deeper in your thoughts. I love reading LW posts and puzzled and Gstickley. Gstickly gets me laughing when I really need to. I miss Cind and I love chumps posts too. Alot Im not mentioning cause they show up now and then but each of them are appreciated!!! Sherrijean I love your posts too. You have a way of getting me thinking. Pgal regenerates my thoughts about things I forgot about. The list goes on. SJ don't you dare leave the ballfield. Get back on the home plate and bat away lol :) Hugs to all of you!!!!

[2-B]

Wow, you and UTR have the same bumpersticker! I thought they couldn't duplicate them???

You can order five different versions of the bumpersticker under the "popular" category, as well as the T-shirt, at http://www.zazzle.com.

"Eschew obfuscation" is a famous and popular saying, especially where muddy waters swirl about. There's even a political blog with that name. If the poster UTR had the same viewpoint, I'm happy to share that philosophy.

[J. J. in Phila]

1. PF was questioned. Was she asked what time RG came home on Thursday night? Was she asked what RG did after he returned home? What were her answers?

You don't know and you haven't provided answers to GS's questions.

2-3. LG repeated what was told to her. Where did that information come from?

You have no proof of whether RG was scheduled to work that day and just woke up saying he was going to play hooky, or whether he'd been scheduled for a half or a whole day off. You haven't answered GS's question.

4. Never said the DA wasn't in charge of the DA's office. I said LHG had never been the guy in charge of anything and clearly didn't know that being TGIC requires more responsibility when taking time off than for a subordinate taking time off. The claim "he doesn't have to schedule anything" reflects a lack of understanding of what it means to be TGIC. :rolleyes:

5. Only two people know the contents of that phone call. One is missing.

You don't know what was said in that phone call. You haven't answered GS's question.

6. Where is your proof that such an email was sent out? Not your assumption or guess that it was, but your proof.

You haven't answered GS's question.


Yes, they were, but, as usual, you didn't like the answers. My understanding was that the PSP interview was intense, the polygraph was intense. Execpting BJL, PEF was only one subject to really intense scrutiny.

[2-B]

JJ, GS wasn't seeking your opinion. She was looking for confirmed answers, and you haven't offered any. Opinions are fine on this board--it is an opinion board, after all. But a few folks here (and I am one) don't see unsupported opinion as a reason to eliminate anything. That includes your unsupported opinions which you claim eliminate the possibility that RG didn't come home Thursday night.

Only irrefutable hard evidence can **eliminate** anything in this mystery. Irrefutable hard evidence is in short supply in this case.

Meanwhile, would you mind explaining to us how even if all of your opinions masquerading as confirmed answers were all true, those would form criteria placing RG definitively in Lewisburg as you've said upthread?

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, GS wasn't seeking your opinion. She was looking for confirmed answers, and you haven't offered any. Opinions are fine on this board--it is an opinion board, after all. But a few folks here (and I am one) don't see unsupported opinion as a reason to eliminate anything. That includes your unsupported opinions which you claim eliminate the possibility that RG didn't come home Thursday night.

Only irrefutable hard evidence can **eliminate** anything in this mystery. Irrefutable hard evidence is in short supply in this case.

Meanwhile, would you mind explaining to us how even if all of your opinions masquerading as confirmed answers were all true, those would form criteria placing RG definitively in Lewisburg as you've said upthread?

First, as was pointed out in the media, elected officials don't have to keep a schedule. We ran into that even regarding Judge Grine. In RFG's case, he didn't schedule 4/14 hooky time either.

Second, from TG years ago, we know that LE (actually in the person of the polygrapher) that PEF was asked about both the call and the laptop.

I have a feeling the Amazing Crizwell may be making an appearance soon (if he hasn't already).

[2-B]

First, as was pointed out in the media, elected officials don't have to keep a schedule. We ran into that even regarding Judge Grine. In RFG's case, he didn't schedule 4/14 hooky time either.

Second, from TG years ago, we know that LE (actually in the person of the polygrapher) that PEF was asked about both the call and the laptop.

I have a feeling the Amazing Crizwell may be making an appearance soon (if he hasn't already).

And this explains how any of what you've said creates parameters which place RG in Lewisburg? :confused:

[Cloudbuster]

hello i'v been reading about ray gricar and j luna were either of these to working on or with anyone in a drug case. ( thomas unguard, dustin k kreitz. ) williamsport drug task force i'm not sure i just wanted to know these to police were charged coruption never found out if anymore were charged how can i find out[/QUOTE]


Kreitz still faces two counts of obstructing the administration of law or other government function and one each of tampering with public records or information, criminal conspiracy, hindering apprehension or prosecution and conflict of interest.

Charges against Ungard include three counts of theft by failure to make required disposition of funds and one count each of tampering with public records or information, criminal conspiracy, conflict of interest and obstructing the administration of law or other government function.

The allegations against Ungard and Kreitz include destruction of task force records before January 2006, the seizure of eight vehicles that ended up as the property of Ungard or relatives of his, and the random borrowing by Kreitz from "drug-buy money" he allegedly used for personal reasons. The state also alleges money from the sale of forfeited vehicles and task force equipment has not been accounted for.

Kreitz also is accused of improperly obtaining a television owned by a city rental business forfeited to the drug task force.

The investigation of Ungard and Kreitz began over a fishing trip to Canada in 2006. It was discovered that Ungard and former city police Chief John McKenna used a pickup truck forfeited by the conviction of cocaine dealer Louis Benchino to go fishing.

No criminal charges were filed against McKenna, who now is a sergeant with the city police.

http://www.sungazette.com/page/content.detail/id/517247.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Corbett said that in telephone calls monitored by agents from the Public Corruption Unit, Kreitz allegedly appeared extremely interested in the questions agents asked his former girlfriend. Kreitz seemed especially interested after he learned she had spoken to them about money that had been taken from drug task force accounts. Kreitz allegedly told her to "tell them you were wrong.tell them you exaggerated."

The grand jury determined that during the telephone calls, Kreitz instructed her about how to answer questions and described what she should tell investigators about the use or possession of forfeited property, the use of forfeited vehicles, and other topics that were the subject of the investigation.

During the course of the investigation, agents attempted to obtain drug task force records and it was discovered that all records prior to January 2006 had allegedly been destroyed by Ungard. The destroyed records were the only complete copies and included information for cases that were still under investigation and prosecution.

The grand jury states that shortly before the records disappeared, Ungard and Kreitz discussed the records and decided that they should be destroyed. Kreitz allegedly told investigators that he did not see Ungard destroy or remove the records, but changed his story several times as to when the records disappeared.

"As public officials we have a duty to protect the citizens of Pennsylvania. When an official breaks the public's trust for personal gain it is extremely disappointing," Corbett said. "Nobody is above the law in Pennsylvania, even law enforcement."

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=2561

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ungard's admission that he and former city Police Chief John McKenna used a truck forfeited by a drug dealer to haul a boat to Canada on a fishing trip in June 2006 sparked the investigation that led to the charges.

The hitch placed on the truck to pull the boat was bought with task force funds, according to records.

Dinges testified he delegated authority to Ungard, did not require him to tell how he spent money in a drug buy account and relied on him to prepare financial reports.
The Lycoming County Housing Authority gave the task force $7,500 in 2005 for extra police services but did not ask for an accounting of how the money was spent, executive director Elizabeth Turner said.

Ungard also is accused of a selling a city vehicle without permission, but turned over the $1,730 he received

Kreitz's former fiancee, Lauren Callahan, testified that Kreitz told her Ungard was responsible for a big-screen television that had been in the task force office showing up in their apartment, but that if anyone asked about it to say it came from her parents.
http://www.ethicsinpolicing.com/article.asp?id=3285

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW ONE
Drug-case lawyer queries U.S. role
Author: JOHN BEAUGE; For The Patriot-News Tuesday, July 7th, 2009

Author: JOHN BEAUGE; For The Patriot-News

Edition: STATE
Section: Local/State
Page: B02

Article Text:

When did the U.S. attorney’s office know about the statewide grand jury investigation that led to the arrest last month of two Williamsport police officers on corruption charges?

A defense attorney in a federal drug case in which one of the officers, Cpl. Dustin Kreitz, was a lead investigator wants to know.

Andrew Shubin, who represents Markeif Fields, raises in a court document the allegation that the U.S. attorney’s office might have withheld materials in that case to avoid a credibility issue with Kreitz.

“I want the judge to determine when the U.S. attorney’s office was aware Kreitz was being targeted,” the State College lawyer requested in the filing. U.S. Middle District Judge John E. Jones Jr. yesterday allowed Shubin to file a motion that could lead to that information.


U.S. Attorney Thomas A. Marino denied any information was withheld from the defense.

Jones in December granted a defense motion to suppress evidence in the Fields case obtained from a South Williamsport apartment and wrote that Kreitz intentionally, or with reckless disregard for the truth, made false statements to obtain a search warrant.

In May, the judge issued a second order in which he stated he wrongly impugned Kreitz’s character. He commented he would not have had to correct his first order “had the government not made such utter hash out of its presentation.” http://www.statecollegelaw.com/drug-case-lawyer-queries-u-s-role/#more-620

-------------------------------------------------------------

Some court sources have said the nine- and eight-year sentences the two face still are significant. But others suggest it was a likely way to keep the process from getting complicated by the state prosecution of two former city police officers who were involved in the McIntosh-Haynes investigation and who now face unrelated corruption charges brought by a state grand jury.

Former Lt. Thomas Ungard and former Cpl. Dustin Kreitz have surfaced as targets in other appeals. But, during McIntosh’s sentencing before U.S. Senior Judge James F. McClure, defense attorney Andrew Shubin mentioned Kreitz by name as he argued that a pre-sentence report should be disregarded because it relied on findings from the jury trial during which Kreitz was a witness.http://www.statecollegelaw.com/tag/federal-criminal-law/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Thomas+Ungard+and+Kreitz+charged&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[Cloudbuster]

Corbett was involved in the heroin case that Ray started and the Ungard ,Kreitz case and given the timing of records disappearing and ongoing investagations of which the records was destroyed one may be tied into the other easily. Drug stuff intertwines like tupperware you book a party from a party and its ongoing and trinkles out.

The timing is very interesting and you had a lady talking ( possible MW). You also had vechicles involved (could Ray have drove one)? You had Corbett which was working with Ray at the time. Hello awake anyone lol? Also something on Ray's laptop? hello

[J. J. in Phila]

And this explains how any of what you've said creates parameters which place RG in Lewisburg? :confused:

I didn't mention "parameters" in the post you quoted.

[2-B]

JJ, GS wasn't seeking your opinion. She was looking for confirmed answers, and you haven't offered any. Opinions are fine on this board--it is an opinion board, after all. But a few folks here (and I am one) don't see unsupported opinion as a reason to eliminate anything. That includes your unsupported opinions which you claim eliminate the possibility that RG didn't come home Thursday night.

Only irrefutable hard evidence can **eliminate** anything in this mystery. Irrefutable hard evidence is in short supply in this case.

Meanwhile, would you mind explaining to us how even if all of your opinions masquerading as confirmed answers were all true, those would form criteria placing RG definitively in Lewisburg as you've said upthread?

JJ, the above post is the one you responded to. It posed one question for you to answer, alluding to your prior claim that GS's unanswered questions somehow set criteria/parameters which placed RG in Lewisburg.

TIA for explaining to us how even if all of your opinions masquerading as confirmed answers were all true, those would form criteria placing RG definitively in Lewisburg.

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ, the above post is the one you responded to. It posed one question for you to answer, alluding to your prior claim that GS's unanswered questions somehow set criteria/parameters which placed RG in Lewisburg.

TIA for explaining to us how even if all of your opinions masquerading as confirmed answers were all true, those would form criteria placing RG definitively in Lewisburg.


A link was posted, and I used the word "criteria."

And, I ask a questionin April in regard to the 4/15/05 Lewisburg witnesses:

For those folks that say he wasn’t there on that, I say produce some counter evidence that he was someplace else or that he could not have been there. Not speculation, actual counter evidence.

I'm still waiting.

[2-B]

A link was posted, and I used the word "criteria."

How could you post a link to your own opinion that answering GS's questions definitively places Gricar in Lewisburg?

Besides, you didn't post a link to anything, anyway. Here are the only responses you've given on that issue:

Post #316 (to 2-B):

Then go back and reread. GS said that until the questions were answered, we wouldn't know if RFG went home on 4/14/05. They have been, so be her standards, she knows.

My standards are a bit stricter.

********

Post #318 (to GS):

You listed the criteria. By your criteria, it was demonstrated.

Now, as it happens, I don't use your criteria.

I found out recently that my criteria is a bit tighter that LE's criteria.


Apparently you are unable to clarify or support the statement you've made.

And, I ask a questionin April in regard to the 4/15/05 Lewisburg witnesses:

For those folks that say he wasn’t there on that, I say produce some counter evidence that he was someplace else or that he could not have been there. Not speculation, actual counter evidence.

I'm still waiting.

I don't think I've ever seen posters here say RG was not in Lewisburg.

I've heard them say (and have said myself) that there is no hard evidence Ray Gricar was in Lewisburg. Others have said they don't believe RG was in Lewisburg.

Big difference between that and what you've written ("folks that say he wasn’t there").

And generally, they've said that in response to your claims that evidence places RG in Lewisburg beyond a reasonable doubt.

This board has been filled with discussion showing that there is no hard evidence placing Gricar in Lewisburg.

Since I don't think we have any "folks that say he wasn’t there," I'm not surprised you're still waiting.

But you know as well as anybody (or should know) that what you've posed is a logical fallacy in this case, since RG's existence anywhere on this planet has not been objectively verified anywhere since 9:07 p.m. on Thursday, 4/14/05. There is no counter-evidence anyone can produce proving that he was anywhere after that time, when he left the courthouse.

[ladyheartfixer]

personal experience...Andy Shubin is a very shrewd attorney.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks ladyheartfixer for the heads up on ASubin! Something about that whole thing smells fishy. I know folks hate when you speak of psychics but for what it's worth I paid for a good one from Ohio. This was a long time ago and what bugs me is Mr Kester said that somewhere in this case is a Canadian connection. The only thing that has come up is the Kreitz and Ungard case with a CANADIAN connection. I see no Candian connection on anything else but that.

[Politigal]

just reposting a link to some of the older articles in this case - lots of interesting reads here

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=163

[Politigal]

In rereading those old articles and cross referencing with comments on CTV, I had forgotten about the woman who reported seeing Gricar in the Oprah audience, and how Parlorelephant felt that event coincided perhaps with the timing of PF's polygraph. And interesting that the woman's husband works at the courthouse and is a window washer.....

Wonder if he resembles a "construction type" person?

[J. J. in Phila]

In rereading those old articles and cross referencing with comments on CTV, I had forgotten about the woman who reported seeing Gricar in the Oprah audience, and how Parlorelephant felt that event coincided perhaps with the timing of PF's polygraph. And interesting that the woman's husband works at the courthouse and is a window washer.....

Wonder if he resembles a "construction type" person?

Let's see.

The report "fizzled" on 7/7/05, but first the BPD had to get the report, have the show producers send them the tapes, and watch the tapes.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3788.html

That PEF was going to be polygraphed wasn't announced until 7/13/05.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05194/537119-100.stm

I will make sure to add the window washer and his wife to the "Vast Gricar Conspiracy" list.

[Politigal]

Let's see.

The report "fizzled" on 7/7/05, but first the BPD had to get the report, have the show producers send them the tapes, and watch the tapes.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3788.html

That PEF was going to be polygraphed wasn't announced until 7/13/05.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05194/537119-100.stm

I will make sure to add the window washer and his wife to the "Vast Gricar Conspiracy" list.

So you think there is a vast conspiracy in the Gricar case.....

I don't. :tonguewag:

I think it's a fairly simply case of homicide.

jmho

[Cloudbuster]

Tidbit thursday lol. I just wanted to say my So was talking to someone that is a friend of someone in LE. The person told him that at some point that LE was taking a second look at someone in Search and Rescue and that was due to the laptop where it was found and how something in that order. Something about this person having military background. Also knowing how to position the laptop. Okay I will shut up with the rest cause I have no link for that though lol.

[Politigal]

Tidbit thursday lol. I just wanted to say my So was talking to someone that is a friend of someone in LE. The person told him that at some point that LE was taking a second look at someone in Search and Rescue and that was due to the laptop where it was found and how something in that order. Something about this person having military background. Also knowing how to position the laptop. Okay I will shut up with the rest cause I have no link for that though lol.

do you know if it was someone on the Centre County Search & Rescue team

http://www.ccsosar.org/

(and note that the home page photo is actually the group that searched at Lewisburg for RG -- the photo is tagged Gricargroup)

or one of the volunteers?

[Cloudbuster]

Pgal Im not sure but was there more than one search and rescue group involved?

[Politigal]

Pgal Im not sure but was there more than one search and rescue group involved?

Centre County Search & Rescue did all the official searches. Another area provided the dive team I think. And there were volunteer searchers involved with the Carla Baron "search."

From the CDT timeline here's what they reported:

April 22: About three dozen police and rescue workers from five counties conduct a massive search of the Susquehanna River involving nine divers, 17 search-and-rescue team members combing the river banks, two boats and a dog trained to detect corpses. The day's effort yields nothing.

Read more: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:WtPvLVfWPV0J:www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3795.html+divers+ray+gricar&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#ixzz0MF08SkSK

and note the comments in this article:

http://ccsosar.org/pdf/CollegianArticle04-04-.pdf

CCSOSAR was also the only search and
rescue squad associated with the search for missing
Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar because it
operates under the Centre County Sheriff, Denny Nau.

[Politigal]

this video link shows pics of the Sunbury dive team

http://imagesource.cnn.com/imagesource/ViewAsset.action?viewAsset=&cnnId=03659939&searchResultsActionBeanClass=com.cnn.imagesource.a ction.search.BrowseActionBean&damId=3659939

[Cloudbuster]

I just asked my So and he said that only the words part of the search and rescue team. To me that could include the divers too. I don't get the feeling that Carlas group was meant.

When you stop to think about who would go into the water to place that laptop so easily? Also I would think its someone who didn't stand out going into the water.

[Cloudbuster]

Wow the water seems low. Thanks for that link I have never seen any of this. Its interesting. Why can't I ever be around when these talks come up lol darn it.

[Politigal]

S1 posted this 4/22/09 on Crimelibrary

Searchers combed the Lewisburg scene the first week...not looking just for Gricar, but for any evidence that might be connected. They were aware of the missing laptop at some point that week...even reporting a computer-part find. Divers searched the river on Friday, 4/22/05. But nothing related to Gricar was found.

At DD’s request, the Northumberland and Union county sheriffs organized another search of the river, using a cadaver dog from Dauphin County. This search was conducted on May 5, between the dam at Sunbury and the railroad bridge at Lewisburg. The UC Sheriff noted that the water level had dropped a foot and a half from when the initial search was conducted, and that the water clarity was “perfect” that day. In fact the river was then down about a foot and a half at Lewisburg, from the level on 4/15/05. But it was only down a few inches from the level on the date of the diver search.

They searched the banks and islands, and crossed the river back and forth in a boat. Again nothing related to Gricar was found. The sheriff noted more recreational craft out on the river, and that the state police had reportedly issued a mandate...not to touch anything found in the river that could possibly be linked to Gricar, since it might turn the area into a crime scene.

All of that activity on the river and nothing was found...in May, or June, or July, as the water level continued to drop...until midmorning on Saturday, July 30, when two fishermen supposedly happened upon Gricar’s laptop computer (sans hard drive) under the traffic bridge. Apparently not getting (or forgetting) the “mandate”, they scooped the computer out of water which had been twice before searched by trained officials.

While a state police forensic computer expert examined the laptop, the dive team returned that weekend, looking for the missing hard drive and any other evidence. This time they appear to have been joined by a top-notch underwater criminal investigation team out of Carlisle (reference a photo depicting www.CrimeSceneDivers.org). The river bank and channel behind the park was also completely stripped of the heavy brush and flood debris...an indication that this area was thoroughly searched. But once again nothing was found.

CrimeSceneDivers.org (and/or .com) no longer exists online, but can be found in Internet archives. Some information is also here and here. The team uses sophisticated tools to locate evidence underwater, even buried in silt. All of that manpower and equipment and the hard drive remained "lost" for another two months, until stumbled upon, in plain view, by (supposedly) a couple of stone-skippers. And how much lower was the water level then? Down about an inch from date of the laptop find.

Amazingly bad searching or bad luck...unless perhaps the laptop and hard drive were not there to find when the official searches were performed? And if they were not there on April 15/16, what might that suggest in terms of the 3 prominent theories?

[7psig]

Williamsport native, Marine, State Police Hollidaysburg & Rockview, Centre County Sheriff since 1992, Karate Club, CCSOSAR, DSV Task Force, Operation Falcon -- http://www.dennynau.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Operation Falcon (April 4-10, 2005) -- http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/falcon/index-falcon1.htm

"Dixon said it is "not too likely" that the hard drive fell out of the laptop on its own." "The investigation included a Sunbury Fire Department diving team, who scoured the river between Lewisburg and Milton on Saturday and again on Sunday to look for more evidence. "They hit it really hard yesterday," Dixon said. He added that the low water level and the "fantastic" visibility aided the divers' search." -- http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-02-05tdc/08-02-05dnews-01.asp

"Centre County Sheriff Denny Nau said he doesn't think any illicit activity occurred, adding that the hard drive could have been removed by anyone, including Gricar." -- http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-30-05tdc/08-30-05dnews-04.asp

[7psig]

"Many team members have been in the military. Some are college students and others are older members of the community." "CCSOSAR was also the only search and rescue squad associated with the search for missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar because it operates under the Centre County Sheriff, Denny Nau. "We covered multiple areas of interest to the police during the search [for Gricar]," Ghaffari said." (Politigal's link)

[puzzled]

Geez guys the collegian article states that Ray was last heard from at 6:30 pm when he called PF...what gives?

[2-B]

Geez guys the collegian article states that Ray was last heard from at 6:30 pm when he called PF...what gives?

Same thing that gives in just about all articles on this case and in all journalism in general. Inaccuracies in reporting (and/or slant in reporting) occur, regardless of fact-checking, sources, etc.

Probably wise to take everything we read on this case with a grain of salt, though some sources are more suspect than others. To be fair, I'd say all in all the Collegian has done a respectable job for the most part, far better than a couple articles that get quoted by some as if they were Biblical scripture.

That, of course, is just my opinion, to which I am entitled.

[Politigal]

Same thing that gives in just about all articles on this case and in all journalism in general. Inaccuracies in reporting (and/or slant in reporting) occur, regardless of fact-checking, sources, etc.

snipped.


That applies in spades to JJ's blog on the CDT

IMO

[Politigal]

I had done this quite a while back but decided to take another look at RG's cases where revenge or a slow-burn type thing might have played out.

And I have noticed someone in the Philippines recently visiting my googlepages several times, so I searched for cases where the participants may have been from there.

One of Gricar's cases that occurred not long before the disappearance actually involved a young man from the Philippines named Salvador Peter Serrano and 2 brothers named Jason and Christopher Rosengrant.

The brothers were acquitted of manslaughter and Serrano's family also lost a wrongful death suit. Don't have a clue if the family may have blamed RG, but it's reported they were definitely upset with the outcome of the trial.

Here are a few links:

http://www.ebalita.net/go/news/news.php?id=1806

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/10/10-26-04tdc/10-26-04dnews-12.asp

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/09/09-08-06tdc/09-08-06dnews-06.asp

http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/063670p.pdf

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1316249.html

[Politigal]

I misspoke above about the wrongful death suit I think...

I guess they did reach a settlement.

[J. J. in Phila]

So you think there is a vast conspiracy in the Gricar case.....

I don't. :tonguewag:

I think it's a fairly simply case of homicide.

jmho

According to you, someone with a twenty-five mile long arms. :rolleyes:

We've already seen the conspiracy theories involving at least 20 people.

[J. J. in Phila]

Tidbit thursday lol. I just wanted to say my So was talking to someone that is a friend of someone in LE. The person told him that at some point that LE was taking a second look at someone in Search and Rescue and that was due to the laptop where it was found and how something in that order. Something about this person having military background. Also knowing how to position the laptop. Okay I will shut up with the rest cause I have no link for that though lol.


In that WJAC piece on the searches, Weaver said that he thought RFG erased the drive. I think he was right and I'd strongly suspect that Weaver has good reason to believe that RFG tossed the drive. (and I keep on saying, it is possible for RFG to have tossed the drive, and then be murdered.)

Also, I saw it today while doing research, someplace there is a press account of the depth of the water; there is also TG's description in his photo section.

If you look at every scenario that I've posted in the blog, I've said: Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

Or words to that effect.

[gstickley]

In that WJAC piece on the searches, Weaver said that he thought RFG erased the drive. I think he was right and I'd strongly suspect that Weaver has good reason to believe that RFG tossed the drive. (and I keep on saying, it is possible for RFG to have tossed the drive, and then be murdered.)

Also, I saw it today while doing research, someplace there is a press account of the depth of the water; there is also TG's description in his photo section.

If you look at every scenario that I've posted in the blog, I've said: Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

Or words to that effect.

Please post a link to the WJAC "piece" on the searches.

[Politigal]

In that WJAC piece on the searches, Weaver said that he thought RFG erased the drive. I think he was right and I'd strongly suspect that Weaver has good reason to believe that RFG tossed the drive. (and I keep on saying, it is possible for RFG to have tossed the drive, and then be murdered.)

Also, I saw it today while doing research, someplace there is a press account of the depth of the water; there is also TG's description in his photo section.

If you look at every scenario that I've posted in the blog, I've said: Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

Or words to that effect.

Weaver did *not* say that he thought RG erased the drive.

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

Weaver said Gricar had searched Window Washer, wipe drives, and asked questions about erasing a drive. He then went on to say that then a month before the disappearance that Gricar had searched how to fry a drive and water damage to a computer.

[Cloudbuster]

In that WJAC piece on the searches, Weaver said that he thought RFG erased the drive. I think he was right and I'd strongly suspect that Weaver has good reason to believe that RFG tossed the drive. (and I keep on saying, it is possible for RFG to have tossed the drive, and then be murdered.)

Also, I saw it today while doing research, someplace there is a press account of the depth of the water; there is also TG's description in his photo section.

If you look at every scenario that I've posted in the blog, I've said: Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

Or words to that effect.

I agree with you on the tossed hard drive. "I took it out and pulled over and tossed it and I tossed it." Then I hear "then the murderer pulled out". I don't think those words would lie.

JJ you did say it and yep I do agree with that 100 percent.

[J. J. in Phila]

Weaver told WTAJ News investigators found an opened box that at one time contained hard drive erasing software. It is his belief Gricar used that software on his county issued laptop.

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

I agree with Weaver's belief, though "belief" (his or mine) is not evidence.

Hum, it was WTAJ, not WJAC.

[Amused]

Man, I still cannot see someone like Gricar tossing his drive into the river.
He was such a "law and order" type of guy.
That's littering.

I think if he did dispose of it, he would shove it down in with some messy garbage aand put it in a dumpster.

[Politigal]

Weaver told WTAJ News investigators found an opened box that at one time contained hard drive erasing software. It is his belief Gricar used that software on his county issued laptop.

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

I agree with Weaver's belief, though "belief" (his or mine) is not evidence.

Hum, it was WTAJ, not WJAC.

As has been discussed already though....

if Gricar used the software to erase the drive...why would he then need to fry the drive later?

[J. J. in Phila]

Man, I still cannot see someone like Gricar tossing his drive into the river.
He was such a "law and order" type of guy.
That's littering.

I think if he did dispose of it, he would shove it down in with some messy garbage aand put it in a dumpster.

The "law and order guy" was know for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories, according to the PSP Trooper who pulled him over.

Outside of few very close friends, nobody really knew the guy.

A messy dumpster does not destroy data; a river, even for a few weeks, does.

We do know that there something on the drive that RFG never wanted to see the light of day. What we do not know is if that was in any way linked to his disappearance.

It Lustor who use to complain about me talking about the laptop so much; she might have been right, if RFG was murdered.

[Amused]

Well shut my mouth......lol.

I would have never imagined him doing that either!
Judging someone by their "persona" may not be all that accurate after all.

[Amused]

eta:

I wasn't saying the dumpster would destroy data, I just meant that it would not be found.

[J. J. in Phila]

eta:

I wasn't saying the dumpster would destroy data, I just meant that it would not be found.

There is a blog out there about my first and wrong impressions of RFG and the case, so you are not the only one. :)

Some folks do "harvest" data, and a semi intact hard drive is solid gold. Even in the context of RFG just wanting to protect his privacy, completely unrelated to his disappearance, I could understand him tossing it, and tossing it about 50 miles from home.

The case, the witness time line, and RFG asking about doing it, really got me thinking about it. The computer searches just pushed it up a bit.

[gstickley]

The "law and order guy" was know for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories, according to the PSP Trooper who pulled him over.



Exactly how many times was "the law and order guy 'know' for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories"? Did he do this after every court case he won? Did the same PSP Trooper pull him over each time, if he did it more than once? On which back road was he pulled over? Did he receive a ticket for excessive speed?

Or . . . is this more blowing things out of proportion????

[Politigal]

We do know that there something on the drive that RFG never wanted to see the light of day. snipped


You continually twist the truth.

The truth is that RG had inquired about erasing the data prior to retirement.

[Politigal]

Exactly how many times was "the law and order guy 'know' for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories"? Did he do this after every court case he won? Did the same PSP Trooper pull him over each time, if he did it more than once? On which back road was he pulled over? Did he receive a ticket for excessive speed?

Or . . . is this more blowing things out of proportion????

Bingo to your last statement.

[Politigal]

A messy dumpster does not destroy data; a river, even for a few weeks, does.

snipped.

Hard drive erasing software *erases* data.....therefore no need to *destroy* anything.

[J. J. in Phila]

Exactly how many times was "the law and order guy 'know' for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories"? Did he do this after every court case he won? Did the same PSP Trooper pull him over each time, if he did it more than once? On which back road was he pulled over? Did he receive a ticket for excessive speed?

Or . . . is this more blowing things out of proportion????

No more so that the claim he'd never litter. :rolleyes:

He apparently liked to drive fast. That doesn't make him a bad person.

[J. J. in Phila]

Hard drive erasing software *erases* data.....therefore no need to *destroy* anything.

Are you claiming that data erased isn't data destroyed? :rolleyes:

Two possible reasons:

1. He wanted to make sure the data would never see the light of day.

2. He wanted to make it difficult for anyone to know he erased the drive.

[J. J. in Phila]

You continually twist the truth.

The truth is that RG had inquired about erasing the data prior to retirement.

Since he hadn't retired (or purchased a desktop) at the time he inquired. no. The dating of that might put it prior to his announcement, which was still about two years away.

Keep spinning. :lol:

[2-B]

Are you claiming that data erased isn't data destroyed? :rolleyes:

Two possible reasons:

1. He wanted to make sure the data would never see the light of day.

2. He wanted to make it difficult for anyone to know he erased the drive.

Erased data is not destroyed data, JJ. I've pointed this out to you before, but you ignore it.

Erased data (i.e., data removed from a drive via software) can usually be recovered fairly easily.

Destroyed data is destroyed permanently and cannot be recovered. Destroying data requires physical destruction of the drive (not just putting it in water and hoping the drive isn't found before the data is completely destroyed). Or it requires specialized services/equipment, not something you can walk into your local Staples and buy off the shelves.

When you say "there was something on the hard drive of the laptop Ray Gricar didn't want to see the light of day," you are misrepresenting what an interest in erasure software means and using slanted language to do so.

As Sarah Palin recently said to the media, "Quit making things up!"

[J. J. in Phila]

Erased data is not destroyed data, JJ. I've pointed this out to you before, but you ignore it.

Erased data (i.e., data removed from a drive via software) can usually be recovered fairly easily.

Destroyed data is destroyed permanently and cannot be recovered. Destroying data requires physical destruction of the drive (not just putting it in water and hoping the drive isn't found before the data is completely destroyed). Or it requires specialized services/equipment, not something you can walk into your local Staples and buy off the shelves.

When you say "there was something on the hard drive of the laptop Ray Gricar didn't want to see the light of day," you are misrepresenting what an interest in erasure software means and using slanted language to do so.

As Sarah Palin recently said to the media, "Quit making things up!"

No, he might have decided that the best way was to erase and destroy the drive.

I didn't realize you knew the Governor?

[2-B]

No, he might have decided that the best way was to erase and destroy the drive.

I didn't realize you knew the Governor?

Repeating myself:

Destroying data requires physical destruction of the drive (not just putting it in water and hoping the drive isn't found before the data is completely destroyed). Or it requires specialized services/equipment, not something you can walk into your local Staples and buy off the shelves.

As for the former Governor, I just watch the news.

[J. J. in Phila]

Repeating myself:

Destroying data requires physical destruction of the drive (not just putting it in water and hoping the drive isn't found before the data is completely destroyed). Or it requires specialized services/equipment, not something you can walk into your local Staples and buy off the shelves.

As for the former Governor, I just watch the news.

Somebody did it, quite successfully. You have to remember something, if RFG tossed it, he might not have expected anyone to be looking for it.

Remember what I've said:

Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

The question is, a bit early for what?

[2-B]

Somebody did it, quite successfully. You have to remember something, if RFG tossed it, he might not have expected anyone to be looking for it.

Remember what I've said:

Mr. Gricar wanted to destroy the hard drive for months; he arrived a bit early, removed it, and tossed it into the Susquehanna.

The question is, a bit early for what?

The question is whether anyone could count on the drive not being found before water destroyed the data. It would be foolish to assume the drive would sit in the water long enough to destroy the data completely.

If someone had something on that drive he/she didn't want "to see the light of day," plunking it in the river would be the act of someone who hadn't done much research on the issue. The hard drive wasn't found for what, six months after the disappearance? And the FBI and Kroll still hoped to be able to recover data from it. That they weren't able to is beside the point. They didn't say, "Nope, in the water too long. We won't even try because it's pointless."

That means whoever tossed the drive had to hope the drive would sit there months before being found. How could that person be assured it wouldn't be found three days after it was tossed?

Too big a risk for someone who's trying to hide whatever can't "see the light of day."

[J. J. in Phila]

Ah, on 4/15/05 who was specifically looking for a drive? The same question with every day for the next three months?

[2-B]

Ah, on 4/15/05 who was specifically looking for a drive? The same question with every day for the next three months?

Searchers were told to look for anything that might be remotely connected to the disappearance, or words to that effect. That's why they turned up things like the brown loafer, even though RG was wearing sneakers, and the desk top drive, even though a laptop was missing.

[Amused]

I also have an employer-issued laptop (not the one I'm using now, lol)
and if I ever leave I would purchase it. No way would I rely on software to destroy my personal info.

No way would I destroy it.

Why not just buy it and be done with the worry?

[puzzled]

So JJ... you must have been there and seen Ray throw the hardrive in the river? You said that he threw it in there. So how could you know that if in fact you were not there and did not see it with your own eyes? Just curious.

Thank you Jesus that Firefly has flown back! I could not possibly be happier today! Please please pretty please stay with us and help us!

[2-B]

I also have an employer-issued laptop (not the one I'm using now, lol)
and if I ever leave I would purchase it. No way would I rely on software to destroy my personal info.

No way would I destroy it.

Why not just buy it and be done with the worry?

Found this yesterday when I was searching for JJ's WJAC-turned-WTAJ piece:

Bellefonte Police said late Tuesday that Gricar used his home personal computer to search the Internet for information about how to destroy information on a computer hard drive. . . . Police say Gricar might have been researching the topic because of his pending retirement. They believed he planned to keep the laptop computer.

http://www.altoona.com/news/altoona-local/missing-centre-da-researched-how-to-erase-computer-hard-drives,110238/

No indication of why LE believed he planned to keep the laptop, however.

[gstickley]

Found this yesterday when I was searching for JJ's WJAC-turned-WTAJ piece:

Bellefonte Police said late Tuesday that Gricar used his home personal computer to search the Internet for information about how to destroy information on a computer hard drive. . . . Police say Gricar might have been researching the topic because of his pending retirement. They believed he planned to keep the laptop computer.

http://www.altoona.com/news/altoona-local/missing-centre-da-researched-how-to-erase-computer-hard-drives,110238/

No indication of why LE believed he planned to keep the laptop, however.

Golly, gee whiz, 2-B. Ya reckon BPD found a video camera in the house directed at the home personal computer & that's how they know it was RG using the computer to search the Internet for information about how to destroy information on a computer hard drive?????? They must have, or how else would they know it was RG doin' the searchin'????? Or is there a little "birdy" in the house spoutin' off all this important info???

And, why would RG be doin' any searchin' on the home personal computer if he'd already purchased the program to erase the hard drive years ago????

Now, I'm really wonderin' how they "believed he planned to keep the laptop, however". (Must be that "birdy" again.)

Or maybe they found a copy of the "YITMAMPWT".

[2-B]

Golly, gee whiz, 2-B. Ya reckon BPD found a video camera in the house directed at the home personal computer & that's how they know it was RG using the computer to search the Internet for information about how to destroy information on a computer hard drive?????? They must have, or how else would they know it was RG doin' the searchin'????? Or is there a little "birdy" in the house spoutin' off all this important info???

And, why would RG be doin' any searchin' on the home personal computer if he'd already purchased the program to erase the hard drive years ago????

Now, I'm really wonderin' how they "believed he planned to keep the laptop, however". (Must be that "birdy" again.)

Or maybe they found a copy of the "YITMAMPWT".

And if they believe he "planned to keep the computer," do they have a theory explaining why he wanted to erase the hard drive?

[gstickley]

And if they believe he "planned to keep the computer," do they have a theory explaining why he wanted to erase the hard drive?

Dunno, 2-B. Could be the video camera picked it up, the "little birdy" squealed, or it was explained in the "YITMAMPWT".

We also need to find out how many cases RG won court cases so we can know how many times he ran around the back roads at 90 MPH; then we need to check on which back roads could handle 90 MPH traffic. Inquiring minds want to know these things! This apparently will help us find out what happened to RG.

[2-B]

Dunno, 2-B. Could be the video camera picked it up, the "little birdy" squealed, or it was explained in the "YITMAMPWT".

We also need to find out how many cases RG won court cases so we can know how many times he ran around the back roads at 90 MPH; then we need to check on which back roads could handle 90 MPH traffic. Inquiring minds want to know these things! This apparently will help us find out what happened to RG.

Yeah, I got a kick out of hearing that "the 'law and order guy' was know [sic] for driving at about 90 MPH down back roads to celebrate courtroom victories" according to the cop who pulled him over.

I think we've heard about what, one incident where RG was pulled over for speeding when celebrating a courtroom victory?

Having trouble picturing a PSP trooper running around saying, "Oh yeah, that DA Gricar. He's known for driving 90 MPH on back roads to celebrate courtroom victories" based on a single incident. Trooper would be guilty of some mighty hasty generalization there.

Or maybe the person discussing the incident on this thread would be guilty of some mighty hasty generalization?

[Cloudbuster]

Looks like another drug case is gonna get a misdeamer, I mean the dismeaner for running over a pedstrain.

http://www.centredaily.com/116/story/1422173.html?storylink=omni_popular

[Cloudbuster]

Here's another interesting case. Have a look at the comments.
http://www.centredaily.com/126/story/1422177.html?storylink=omni_popular

[Cloudbuster]

No one has posted in 2 days what is up with that? Did I miss something? I guess JJ not being on as much is causing folks to shy away lol? Oh my please don't tell me that some of you was only here to fight with JJ lol? Nah that can't be. Maybe everyone has joined congress for a vacation. Perhaps some got the opportunity to salmon fish with Palin? Maybe some got tied up with the pocono mountain tornado, I heard it was a bad one. Hope everyone is okay?

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my, would someone please tell me why?

[Politigal]

one of our former illustrious posters - Serendipitous1 - reposted this 2/15/09 5:22pm

"Ode to the Mackerel" (sung to “O Christmas Tree”), by ParlorElephant

-------------------------------------------------------------------

A blast from the past in regard to RG’s cell phone records...from the long departed thread here entitled "Disinformation or Mackerel in the Moonlight?" [anyone here old enough to remember Mitch Miller and his gang, feel free to sing along]:

O Mackerel, O Mackerel, Much good of thee is spoken.
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, Of Truth thou art a token.
Do records show a téte-à-téte? Or who made calls as plans were set?
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, To us those records open.

O Mackerel, O Mackerel, We wondered where you vanished.
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, And why you had been banished.
Would what you know about those calls, Upset the cart and cause some falls?
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, The Truth we would be knowing.

O Mackerel, O Mackerel, We’ve asked, but naught availing.
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, For answers we are wailing.
Are there some folks who would be tweaked, If numbers from your list are leaked?
O Mackerel, O Mackerel, To us your list be showing!


*Why* won't Bellefonte Police release those phone records???

:shrug:

[Cloudbuster]

I gotta agree with you Pgal. Why is it such a big deal that they won't say who called him and who he called. They don't need to give no numbers out. There is something there or otherwise they would just tell us. It's a county owned cell phone so the county paying taxpayers have a right to know.

Also if employees saw Ray from the packwood museum move his car and leave and seen him return his car and leave then observed him going to sit on a bench reading a paper, what was they doing all day as employees? Im sorry but that's a tad smelly. To have seen all that they had to be watching RG in the first place. Why stay glued to his moves for that length of time??? I can see if they said we saw him get in his mini and leave but to know he moved the car a few times and came back and sat on a bench, come on, what gives or am I goofy or what lol?
jao

[Cloudbuster]

Im pulling this from a story I can no longer find but is on the link provided. It answers that the cell phone was OFF as per DZ. It also talks about the smelly sightings from the Packwood museum. Boy some people took a lot of time watching Ray that day. It don't surprise me cause those words was "watched me and the rest stood around and watched from the top", was this what he meant? I don't know.

"The biggest thing that was found in the car that didn't jive with what we know about Ray was some cigarette ashes," Zaccagni continues,"Now we're not talking alot. But some minute cigarette ash on the passenger's side. When they opened the car, they got a tobacco smell. A cigarette smell came out of the car. Ray didn't smoke. And he never let anybody smoke inside his Mini Cooper. Ray was very fastidious about his car. The cell phone was in there turned off.
Nothing appeared to be missing

"Later we went to the house and his work and collected all the computers he used for processing to see if there was something on his computers to tell us what had happened. When we went to collect the computer from the house , Patty asked us if we wanted his work laptop too. They had been using his work laptop to do internet searchesand things, but had recently bought a separate one for the home, "So we don't use it anymore," Patty said. So she goes up and brings down the empty case ans says "It's not here." So, it's missing but all the peripheral stuff is there:the power cord, the floppy drive, everything
extra you would need for the laptop, it's all there. The only thing missing is the laptop with it's self-powered battery that lasts for two or three hours.
"Friday night, people remember the car sitting in the parking lot. It's a very distinct car. Two people in the antique mall are positive they seen him in there. One man is positive he saw Gricar talking to a female on several occasions., I asked him "Were they together?" he said "Well, in my mind they were together, but they weren't holding hands, they weren't lovey-dovey or anything."

"We have three or four good witnesses from down there who are definitely I.D.-ing him in the park. They saw him sitting in his car, they watched him driving his Mini Cooper back and forth on Friday."
"We can definitely put him there on Saturday too. There's a museum right here, across from the park. I think it's called Cottingwood House. The employees watched Ray bring his car and park it two or three different times across the street. He came and left, came and left, came back. He got out of his car, sat on a bench. He was reading a newspaper or something, he just seems to have fallen off the earth...........
http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1806
__________________

[Politigal]

Here's an overview of what I believe Bellefonte Police *should* have done at the home when RG was first reported missing:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-assessing-the-scene-of-the-crime.html

My favorite portion of this article is ---

An investigator may logically believe that a piece of evidence ended up where it did because of a suspect's (substitute *victim* here) actions, but if the hard evidence doesn't support this belief, the theory must be held suspect.

And IMO, this statement easily applies to the call, the car, the laptop, the hard drive, and the computer searches, etc.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here's an overview of what I believe Bellefonte Police *should* have done at the home when RG was first reported missing:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-assessing-the-scene-of-the-crime.html

My favorite portion of this article is ---

An investigator may logically believe that a piece of evidence ended up where it did because of a suspect's (substitute *victim* here) actions, but if the hard evidence doesn't support this belief, the theory must be held suspect.

And IMO, this statement easily applies to the call, the car, the laptop, the hard drive, and the computer searches, etc.

The had evidence does support some of it.

As for the phone records, I'm totally in favor of releasing them from the week before until 4/16/05.

[Politigal]

I'd like to know what Patty Fornicola was wearing during the walk in Talleyrand Park on Thursday where Vicki Wedler saw & spoke to her and RG.

If Patty was still wearing office attire - she probably went for the walk directly after work it would seem.

If Patty was wearing casual clothes, she most likely went home after work, changed, (possibly let the dog out) and came back to the courthouse for a walk with RG.

The walk is still very puzzling to me.

And, there are no reports that the two went out to dinner that day.

[Politigal]

Revisiting the cell phone being turned off and no other calls being placed out on it, other than the call to the courthouse --

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154192,00.html

BRYANT: That's just one of the reasons I believe Ray is no longer with us. There's no activity on the cell phone. And quite candidly, Ray was the kind of person that prided himself on law enforcement being able to reach him if something serious went down. He would have taken it. And Ray was also what you would consider an urban cripple. There's no activity on his credit cards. It makes it hard for me to believe that he was around on Saturday.


IMO, Ray Gricar would *not* have turned his phone off just because he wasn't working.

[2-B]

Revisiting the cell phone being turned off and no other calls being placed out on it, other than the call to the courthouse --

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154192,00.html

BRYANT: That's just one of the reasons I believe Ray is no longer with us. There's no activity on the cell phone. And quite candidly, Ray was the kind of person that prided himself on law enforcement being able to reach him if something serious went down. He would have taken it. And Ray was also what you would consider an urban cripple. There's no activity on his credit cards. It makes it hard for me to believe that he was around on Saturday.


IMO, Ray Gricar would *not* have turned his phone off just because he wasn't working.

I agree, Pgal. Bryant says he prided himself on LE being able to reach him. Here's what Smith says:

Gricar's cell phone was found inside the locked car. Smith said Gricar would typically have his cell phone with him when he was traveling and would call or e-mail the office if he was going to be late or take the day off.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-18-penn-da_x.htm

Someone who "prides himself on being able to be reached" and who "typically takes the phone when traveling" doesn't take the phone and then turn it off. I don't care how many times we see the argument, "Oh, he could always check his voice mail later." That argument just doesn't add up for the guy who prides himself on being able to be reached.

[Cloudbuster]

2b and pgal well said!!! Ray's personality type of perfectionist as per his posty memo's shows how much he is into his job. I know someone exactly like that and they don't want to miss anything that might arise unexpectedly in the work force or otherwise.

Another thing is he had his phone on up till his call to PF. At some point after that the phone is Off. That points toward someone not wanting the cell phone picked up on any other cell towers. I just wonder if he picked someone up and they shut it off or was he abducted shortly after his last call? Does anyone know which area comes up after the last call was made?

[2-B]

2b and pgal well said!!! Ray's personality type of perfectionist as per his posty memo's shows how much he is into his job. I know someone exactly like that and they don't want to miss anything that might arise unexpectedly in the work force or otherwise.

LOL, CB, I live with someone like that. The phone stays on, even on vacation and on days off. It comes first.

Another thing is he had his phone on up till his call to PF. At some point after that the phone is Off. That points toward someone not wanting the cell phone picked up on any other cell towers. I just wonder if he picked someone up and they shut it off or was he abducted shortly after his last call? Does anyone know which area comes up after the last call was made?

Exactly the kind of questions which have been running through my mind. Wish I had the answers.

Seems like the disappearance theories always get divided into suicide, walkaway, foul play.

Another way to look at it would be by timeline: sometime Thursday night or early Friday morning; sometime after the call but before arrival in Lewisburg; sometime after arrival in Lewisburg. I tend to think the evidence points to the second one, after the call but before arrival in Lewisburg.

[Politigal]

2b and pgal well said!!! Ray's personality type of perfectionist as per his posty memo's shows how much he is into his job. I know someone exactly like that and they don't want to miss anything that might arise unexpectedly in the work force or otherwise.

Another thing is he had his phone on up till his call to PF. At some point after that the phone is Off. That points toward someone not wanting the cell phone picked up on any other cell towers. I just wonder if he picked someone up and they shut it off or was he abducted shortly after his last call? Does anyone know which area comes up after the last call was made?

IMO, the phone was off and only turned on specifically for the call that day, and then turned off again.

[Politigal]

I continue to believe that if RG made the call the purpose of the call was to leave a marker.

I would like to know exactly which cell tower picked up the call. There is a cell tower back on the mountain by the horse's head above Penn's Cave area, off route 192, that is Centre County 911. Next one is in the Madisonburg area off route 445, a route I believe he traveled that day. The next one is a Centre County 911 cell tower on Winkelblech Mt. off route 45, a route I believe the Mini traveled that day.

I would like to know whether it was a 911 cell tower that picked up the call. If not, were both 911 towers checked for holding possibility of triangulation during the call? Not just anyone would know where the 911 cell towers were but I think it is very possible the DA may have known.
JMO

What's your opinion of why RG would leave a marker?

[Politigal]

back on JJ's fav topic - witness sightings

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1394259/posts

One person reported seeing Gricar about noon April 15 in Lewisburg

April 15th was Friday.

Obviously, if Gricar made the cell call at approx 11:30am while in Brush Valley (near Centre Hall) there's no way he could have been in Lewisburg about noon, whether he traveled 80, 45, 192 or whatever.

Strike that witness.

imo

[Politigal]

another direction.....

it's reported in a couple places that Gricar also took Thursday off work....even though JK Arnold recalled his office door being forcefully closed several times that afternoon....

It's also been reported that Lara Gricar phoned him on Thursday.


Did he tell *her* he was off work that day???

:shrug:

[Politigal]

I think it's been 1 1/2 to 2 yrs ago ....but I had researched all of Gricar's criminal cases in depth (the ones I could find) and didn't really find anything that jumped out at me.

A couple of months ago when Stacy Parks Miller was campaigning she mentioned several times about leadership & mentoring, and training her assistant DA's if elected.....and I started thinking about RG's role as DA and how I'm sure he oversaw his assistants cases to some degree.

Anyway, I hadn't really researched the cases his assistants were involved in until tonight.

Perhaps it was one of those case parties that is involved in the disappearance. Perhaps Gricar was making sure all i's were dotted and t's were crossed for one of his ADA's, or delving into all the evidence or questioning the parties again ??

There was one case that initiated 4/13/05 - it involved multiple charges for terroristic threats and simple assault. Bond was $50,000 (don't know for sure if he posted bail.) Interestingly, this man and his brother operate a home improvement business (construction types...) Later, there were also charges brought against his brother for illegally killing a deer. The dingbat phoned in for a permit of some sort, claiming that the deer had been killed on a roadway by vehicle, but when the officer got to his home (and he wasn't there) he noticed blood everywhere, the deer's head and other parts ....and he saw gunshot wounds.

here's the appeal on the deer killing (so you can catch the guy's last name)

http://www.aopc.org/OpPosting/CWealth/out/652CD05_10-19-05.pdf

Also, according to Lance Marshall's cases on Findlaw - this last name was one of his cases - I didn't pay for the results so I'm not sure which brother was involved.

[sherrijean981]

back on JJ's fav topic - witness sightings

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1394259/posts

One person reported seeing Gricar about noon April 15 in Lewisburg

April 15th was Friday.

Obviously, if Gricar made the cell call at approx 11:30am while in Brush Valley (near Centre Hall) there's no way he could have been in Lewisburg about noon, whether he traveled 80, 45, 192 or whatever.

Strike that witness.

imo


That is not true. If RG's call was picked up at a tower that covers Rt 45 too, as LW was saying, RG could have made it to Lewisburg on Rt 45 in that 30 min. period. It is the least curving/twisting road, with only a couple small towns to go through and it goes right through Lewisburg to the park.

If the call was picked up just over the mountain from Rebersburg on Rt 192 and could be picked up on Rt 45, that would be in the area of Milheim to Aaronsburg.

[sherrijean981]

I think it's been 1 1/2 to 2 yrs ago ....but I had researched all of Gricar's criminal cases in depth (the ones I could find) and didn't really find anything that jumped out at me.

A couple of months ago when Stacy Parks Miller was campaigning she mentioned several times about leadership & mentoring, and training her assistant DA's if elected.....and I started thinking about RG's role as DA and how I'm sure he oversaw his assistants cases to some degree.

Anyway, I hadn't really researched the cases his assistants were involved in until tonight.

Perhaps it was one of those case parties that is involved in the disappearance. Perhaps Gricar was making sure all i's were dotted and t's were crossed for one of his ADA's, or delving into all the evidence or questioning the parties again ??

There was one case that initiated 4/13/05 - it involved multiple charges for terroristic threats and simple assault. Bond was $50,000 (don't know for sure if he posted bail.) Interestingly, this man and his brother operate a home improvement business (construction types...) Later, there were also charges brought against his brother for illegally killing a deer. The dingbat phoned in for a permit of some sort, claiming that the deer had been killed on a roadway by vehicle, but when the officer got to his home (and he wasn't there) he noticed blood everywhere, the deer's head and other parts ....and he saw gunshot wounds.

here's the appeal on the deer killing (so you can catch the guy's last name)

http://www.aopc.org/OpPosting/CWealth/out/652CD05_10-19-05.pdf

Also, according to Lance Marshall's cases on Findlaw - this last name was one of his cases - I didn't pay for the results so I'm not sure which brother was involved.


Do you know what part of Centre County these guys were from? The reason I ask, when we lived in Centre County, my husband had an accident with a deer, and we moved it to our home, called the game law officer and told him what happened. He said we could keep the deer but to put the head and skins where he could get it. He never said anything about having to get a permit and he never showed up to check the deer or remove it. My husband is not a hunter and we have no guns in our home.

I am wondering if this family was known to illegally hunt deer?

Also when visiting my late father-in-law, there were barrels of deer skins outside his home that my brother-in-law had taken illegally. He also hunts illegally or just for the thrill of killing it. (my opinion)
I wonder why the man in your link was treated this way but the in-law never gets convicted?

[Politigal]

That is not true. If RG's call was picked up at a tower that covers Rt 45 too, as LW was saying, RG could have made it to Lewisburg on Rt 45 in that 30 min. period. It is the least curving/twisting road, with only a couple small towns to go through and it goes right through Lewisburg to the park.

If the call was picked up just over the mountain from Rebersburg on Rt 192 and could be picked up on Rt 45, that would be in the area of Milheim to Aaronsburg.

But.....if the call was placed as we are *told* it was ....by Gricar and with him in the brush valley area of highway 192....there's no way he could have been in Lewisburg by noon.


The call is definitely fishy IMO.

[2-B]

While it may be possible for him to have made it to Lewisburg, I don't believe he ever did. IMO, his call at 11:12 a.m. was to alert position.

If he had been in Lewisburg, he could have made a similar call from there, as back up. Even if there was no need for a backup call, no reason whatsoever for him to not call PF from Lewisburg area letting her know that he wouldn't be home for dinner. Silence after that 11:12 a.m. call is the key to position, IMO.

Since the dogs picked up scent in one location only in Lewisburg, IMO, that is the only location where a sighting was possible. By that time or shortly thereafter, a call should have come in from him to PF. No backup call from that area is indicative that he wasn't there, IMO.
The failure to call PF sometime in the 5 p.m. timeframe is indicative, IMO, he wasn't there.



I completely agree with this, Logic. If one truly follows the evidence, it leads to the conclusion that RG most likely never made it to Lewisburg and that someone other than RG most likely turned that phone off.

[sherrijean981]

While it may be possible for him to have made it to Lewisburg, I don't believe he ever did. IMO, his call at 11:12 a.m. was to alert position.

If he had been in Lewisburg, he could have made a similar call from there, as back up. Even if there was no need for a backup call, no reason whatsoever for him to not call PF from Lewisburg area letting her know that he wouldn't be home for dinner. Silence after that 11:12 a.m. call is the key to position, IMO.

Since the dogs picked up scent in one location only in Lewisburg, IMO, that is the only location where a sighting was possible. By that time or shortly thereafter, a call should have come in from him to PF. No backup call from that area is indicative that he wasn't there, IMO.
The failure to call PF sometime in the 5 p.m. timeframe is indicative, IMO, he wasn't there.

IMO, he was not seen in Lewisburg area, because I don't think he ever made it beyond the Coburn area, where I believe he intended to meet someone who didn't want to meet a DA near prying eyes. If the laptop and what was on it is the clue and IF he was already of a mindset he needed to make a call at 11:12 a.m., he had already met someone somewhere, and info on the laptop was likely already being trailed by interested party.
JMO


That was why I said "could have", because I don't know if he did or not. I just keep reading the posts and so far, you have my attention. I did try to go to the spot on the map you mention but I can not make out any figures. Sorry. I would really like to drive it one of these days just to see what is out there, the outlook, etc.
I hate not having a car anymore, just for times like this.

[2-B]

Since the dogs picked up scent in one location only in Lewisburg, IMO, that is the only location where a sighting was possible.

True, Logic. Dogs are used to include or exclude witness sightings, not the other way around, as someone here keeps trying to suggest (when arguing that the witness sightings back up the scent evidence).

We keep hearing from that same person that the dogs likely didn't pick up scent elsewhere (like the SOS) because the scent was fresher in the parking lot, that "scent doesn't last forever," etc., etc.

I was reading some recent articles about the Amber DuBois disappearance and noticed that despite Amber having disappeared six months ago, a dog team (not a cadaver dog) is being flown in from Maine next week to help search for her. That led me to seek out information on the outfit sending the dog team for Amber's search, which led me to an interesting article:

http://www.vk9sar.org/Agedtrails.html

Synopsis: Four dog/handler teams were asked to help LE in what they were told was a search for a man who had been last seen at his residence the previous night.

The handlers specifically asked the officers to not tell them very much about the case to prevent the handlers from influencing the dogs’ movements. . . .

The next day the handlers placed the dogs at several exit roads from the town where the dogs turned to work back into the town. At this time all dog work was ceased due to canine fatigue. At this point the teams requested, and were given, further case information to write their reports. Documents revealed that the murder had occurred a little over a month prior to the dogs working it (32 days).

Since more than one dog (there were 4) worked this case, successfully, and their performances have been repeated several times since then on similar, or older, aged scent work; it gives validity on the dog’s ability to work an aged trail. Other handlers, from across the United States have reported similar successes so it is not just a few dogs or specific breeds being able to do this.


This supports the conclusions of the FBI scent evidence unit that scent is far more durable than anecdotal evidence suggests.

What it should confirm about the Gricar case is exactly what Logic says. The SOS lot is the only place where a sighting was possible, and that sighting possibility is complicated by the presence of the Mini Cooper.

[2-B]

I wasn't sure where to post this, and it didn't seem to warrant its own thread, so I guess "The Crockpot" is as good a place as any.

Some "Food for Thought."

People have often wondered where RG spent the night if the Saturday sightings are accurate. I'm not sure I recall much discussion about where and what RG ate on Friday, though.

PF said he had orange juice before she left the house. We've been told LE "searched" the house, but that "search" was just a walk through. I doubt they ever looked for things like evidence that a glass with RG's DNA or fingerprints had held orange juice.

Apparently PF left before RG ate breakfast, since she says he rolled over and went back to sleep. What were RG's breakfast habits? Did he skip breakfast, or was he a cereal guy, a pop tart guy, or a bacon and eggs guy? Either which way, did LE look for any evidence that RG had eaten breakfast--a cereal bowl and spoon in the sink or dishwasher, for instance, with his DNA/fingerprints?

If the phone call came from RG at 11:15-11:30-ish, RG must have left the house before lunch. So where did he eat lunch? Doubtful on Route 192, since there aren't a lot of options there. More options on 45 if he took that route as Logic has suggested. If he waited to eat lunch until allegedly arriving in Lewisburg, why didn't he show up on any of the 100+ hours of videotape reviewed by LE?

If he allegedly spent the night within 30 miles of Lewisburg (BB's suggestion of checking motels), where did he eat dinner?

[Politigal]

I'd like to know what he did for supper Thursday night.

[Cloudbuster]

Crowley said he has “no idea what’s going on in (Madeira and police) minds.”


http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1458615.html


ROGERS RETRIAL: Defense says prosecutor's actions constitute misconduct, double jeopardy
Judge weighs Madeira mistake
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It surprises me that MM's mistake was he didn't know the law?:w00t:

Parks
Starr
Sweet
Those names form a meaning to me lol. never know.

[sherrijean981]

Crowley said he has “no idea what’s going on in (Madeira and police) minds.”


http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1458615.html


ROGERS RETRIAL: Defense says prosecutor's actions constitute misconduct, double jeopardy
Judge weighs Madeira mistake
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It surprises me that MM's mistake was he didn't know the law?:w00t:

Parks
Starr
Sweet
Those names form a meaning to me lol. never know.

I read this article this morning on the CDT and the comments made by others at the end of the article agree with you. Can't believe he made the quote to a CDT reporter and he is running for re-election.

[Cloudbuster]

If he didn't know the law how can you be the DA? Agree SJ. Seems strange. It sorta shows your not really into the job. I can see a person making mistakes tho but on law when your DA? Perhaps he wanted that position for experience or his resume to move up the political ladder. Im sure TC is helping him to stragically go places. Also in the drug bust that RG's office started who gets any money from it? Was it RG's office or the AG office? Could that have caused a problem between TC and RG? District attorneys have a lot to do with the money. Here is a example:
http://www.pressrepublican.com/0100_news/local_story_223234344.html

[2-B]

Has anyone been following the story of this gentleman who turned up with amnesia in Seattle?

Here's the most recent link I can find:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=8384009

but I just saw a video clip of him on the television that was very interesting.

Authorities now know his name is Edward Lockhart, but he prefers to still be called "John Doe" because he can remember so little of his life. He's obviously educated, articulate, and can speak several languages.

But here's what may be relevant to the Gricar case: he says he is clearly missing years' worth of detail from his life. He's missing the latest presidential election. He says he looks at the tv schedule and recognizes none of the programming. He says he tries to do crossword puzzles and recognizes none of the clues relevant to recent cultural references.

He does remember the events of 9/11/2001.

At one point, I considered a fugue state as a possible explanation for RG's disappearance but kind of shelved it when I read that fugue state sufferers tend to show up within a few months, wandering into shelters or hospitals.

We obviously don't have the whole story on this Lockhart fellow yet, and it could turn out there's a hoax involved. Even if he's on the up and up, a fugue state would be a long shot in the Gricar case, but I thought this was intriguing enough to bring to the board.

[2-B]

Authorities now know his name is Edward Lockhart

I need to make a correction--apparently the name is "Lighthart."

Here's a more detailed article for anyone who is interested:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h-7BfC68WwOf_zvGu9-bm8Eb4e0gD9A6SJQG0

This line might be relevant to the Gricar case if a fugue state were at all possible for RG:

Three psychiatrists who examined the man believe his amnesia is genuine, Dr. Bruce Larson, a psychiatrist who has been attending to the man, told the Times.

[Cloudbuster]

2b I saw a clip on fox news yesterday about him and they didn't cover it till today on there. I think they said he speaks fluent French and German and English. He is very intelligent and his family said he used to be a English Professor in China. I was thinking about how he had no recall of his name but remembers 9/11. He didn't know the date when they interviewed him. The things he can recall he wrote in a folder he keeps. He doesn't want to be called by his name because he recalls nothing about that name. He wants to be called John as in John Doe. It was strange watching that and thinking how that could happen to someone. They said his condition could be permanent. I caught that he left a park bench and remembers nothing. It made me think of Ray being seen on a park bench. This is something we really haven't looked at and as always is also possible. My emotions aside on what I feel it must also be looked at. The mystery man story has been on my mind most of today. Thanks for putting this up and providing the links!!!!!

[Politigal]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009700366_webjohndoe20m.html

She said he didn't have a car and left his belongings behind, including his computer. "We never got along very well," the sister said. "He would disappear for eight or 10 years at a time and then pop back up. It's obvious he's got issues."

She said Lighthart, 53, is very intelligent but had emotional problems.

Until contacted by The Times, she didn't know where he had gone and had no idea why he'd come to Seattle.

"Financially I can't support him," she said. "He has all the skills it takes to work and he won't. I simply can't support him."

the reasons are already cropping up IMO

[2-B]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009700366_webjohndoe20m.html

She said he didn't have a car and left his belongings behind, including his computer. "We never got along very well," the sister said. "He would disappear for eight or 10 years at a time and then pop back up. It's obvious he's got issues."

She said Lighthart, 53, is very intelligent but had emotional problems.

Until contacted by The Times, she didn't know where he had gone and had no idea why he'd come to Seattle.

"Financially I can't support him," she said. "He has all the skills it takes to work and he won't. I simply can't support him."

the reasons are already cropping up IMO

Thanks for this link, Pgal. It does appear Lighthart has a history of emotional issues, something not evident in the Gricar case.

Like Cloudbuster, I spent a lot of today thinking about the Lighthart story because I put aside my objective approach to the evidence in the RG case for a minute and hoped for a reason RG could still be alive. I don't believe there's any evidence to support the YITMAMPWT, and it looks as if the Lighthart story won't help support a years' long fugue state theory either. Sigh. Nothing would make me happier than to find a way to believe that RG could still be alive, but I guess this ain't it. :sad:

[Cloudbuster]

I was looking at where the money comes from for making undercover drug buys and found these articles. Whats interesting is:
1) The money comes from Rays office and
2) I see NO AG office involved in past cases
Question is why was the latest case started by Ray's office and somehow ended up in TC's hands????? Ray certainly had his own resources, which brings me back too who got the missing cookie list of money and property obtained by the largest drug bust in Centre County????



Money used to purchase the drugs was supplied by District Attorney Ray Gricar's office, police said. A spokeswoman in Gricar's office said the district attorney was out of town.



Twenty University Police Services officers participated in the drug roundup, Stormer said. Ferguson and Patton township police, Rockview State Police and the Bureau of Narcotics Investigations, Zelienople, Pa., aided local police in serving arrest warrants, Stormer added.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/11/11-08-88tdc/11-08-88dnews-07.asp

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One man was discovered when he was allegedly found semi-conscious in an elevator stuck between two apartment floors, with a needle at his side and blood on his arm, probable cause affidavits said.

The $7,500 used to purchase the drugs was obtained from Centre County through District Attorney Ray Gricar
State College and University police were assisted by Patton Township Police, Ferguson Township Police and Rockview state police, which brought the ranks up to about 60 officers, Orndorf said.

The last large drug bust involving the five departments took place almost a year ago. On Nov. 7 of last year, 18 people, including nine University students, were arrested on drug charges.

.http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1989/11/11-15-89tdc/11-15-89dnews-04.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If elected, Bryant said he would delegate more cases to his assistant district attorneys, making the office more effective.

"The current incumbent is a micromanager," Bryant said. "I will be a macromanager."
Bryant also said a general management change must be made in the district attorney's office.

"I will treat the district attorney position as a policy maker," Bryant said.

Gricar said another problem facing the county is the size of the Centre County Prison. He said the Centre County Board of Commissioners acted irresponsibly by giving federal grant money to the Bellefonte YMCA and not using it to increase the prison's size.
Gricar said the elimination of the drug detective position from the county payroll was another mistake. The current drug detective is being paid with forfeitures from drug busts, a practice Bryant calls immoral.
Using forfeitures from drug busts to pay the salary of the drug detective is an invitation to disaster, said Bryant.

"I will not support a position that is funded in that way," Bryant said, adding that the position isn't needed.

But Gricar defended the drug detective position and the use of drug forfeitures for salary.

"By law, the district attorney shall use (drug) proceeds for drug-law enforcement," Gricar said. If the drug detective position is eliminated, the county would lose the ability to use the electronic surveillance equipment and the services of the National Guard sergeant who works with the detective, Gricar said.


http://146.186.194.36/archive/1993/10/10-29-93tdc/10-29-93dnews-8.asp

[Cloudbuster]

Another one:

Questions about the prevalence of drugs in the State College area surround Friday's arrest of 23 suspected cocaine dealers and users who were allegedly involved in a local drug ring.


The latest round of arrests occurred as a result of an organized standing body of investigation, which included the members of the Bureau of Narcotics Investigation, said Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.


"This group (of arrests) was the second phase of investigation that began a long time ago," Gricar said.


The arrests are a product of tips and leads taken by the BNI, he added about the ongoing investigation.


Susan Bloom, executive director of Comprehensive Recovery Care Inc. in Bellefonte, said she was not surprised by last week's arrests.
http://146.186.194.36/archive/2000/01/01-18-00tdc/01-18-00dnews-6.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Cloudbuster]

"For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed;nor has anything been secret, but that it should come to light (Mark 4:22)

i claim this verse for this case.:smile:

[sherrijean981]

Thought you might find this article interesting. A known drug dealer for "a couple years" but turns out he was dealing drugs when Brenda Condron, his girlfriend, disappeared without a trace from a bar near Bellefonte.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1464561.html

[Politigal]

a "blast from the past" post by Tony Gricar:

02-20-2008, 04:47 PM
tonyGricar tonyGricar is offline
Registered User


I think we're going to see that, much like some of the other mistakements made, that they really have no idea whether there was evidence of a wipe-down. I'm getting the vibe that one individual was prone to claims steeped in nothing more than wanting to look more on top of things than reality now indicates.

Zaccagni undone...

imo

[2-B]

Pgal, some are using the latest fashion-phrasing "candor."

Always intriguing to me how re-packaging is supposed to function as a marketing strategy.

[Amused]

I was ust reading about the ADA in Texas who was shot and killed.....

And it brought up a question for me.
(One that you've probably already discussed. If so, sorry for the repeat question.)

If Gricar was killed as retribution , wouldn't it seem that the murder would be made public? Wouldn't the killer want to make a "statement"?

[Cloudbuster]

Bryant described Ray as a micromanger. I looked up what a micromanager is and provided the link. If Ray was this micromanager then wouldn't he want the drug forfeiture spending fund built up with his 8 months from retirement approaching???? I can't seem to find the missing cookie list. Drug busts tell what was obtained in the busts. This last largest drug bust only tells who was arrested and where they live and what they was arrested for. Where is the cookie list? Like for example guns, drug money vechicles, bank accounts??? Where is it? If anyone sees it let us know please.

http://www.careerknowhow.com/guidance/micromanager.htm
Micromanagers get a bad wrap--most often as "control freaks." Yet, to really understand and deal with a "micro" boss, it's important to know the five specific behaviors that define micromanagers.

• They exercise raw power.
Micromanagers love to flex their muscles--asserting their power and authority just because they can. While unable to subordinate themselves, they control others with an uncompromising sense of entitlement and self-interest.

• They dictate time.
Micromanagers like to control and manipulate others' time. They don't trust people to assess their own workload, so they routinely dictate priorities and distort deadlines. And while they guard their own time with an iron fist, they're notorious for interrupting others, misusing and mismanaging meetings, and perpetuating crises.

• They control how work gets done.
Micromanagers want everything to be done their way. After all, the boss knows best--or so they think. They dismiss others' knowledge, experience, and ideas--no matter how good--then hover over them to make sure they're doing things "right."

• They require undue approvals.
Micromanagers share responsibility, but not authority. As the bottlenecks of the workplace, they allow no one to move forward without their approval--even on routine or time-sensitive matters.

• They demand frequent and unnecessary reports.
Micromanagers are driven to know what's going on. They monitor others to death--requiring a stream of needless reports that focus on activity over outcomes.

http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/itproject/are-you-a-micro-or-a-macro-manager/

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks LW!!! I been off lately because by back is blown out. So Im just picking up where I left off. Some tidbits:

http://www.superior.court.state.pa.us/Opinions/s07008_02.pdf This article may contain detectives name but Im not positive. Read it and see what you think.

http://huntingdoncounty.net/hunt_co/lib/hunt_co/mins041409.pdf This is a little background information on hiring a drug detective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/pa/2009/19/articles/york_da_candidates_debate_drug_forfeiture_fund.htm l

http://www.fear.org/chron/shorty1.txt a story about drug property with RG in it.

Commissioners cut eight county jobs
... be funded from drug forfeiture money. But Gricar said he only has enough money in that account to pay the detective's salary for six to eight months. ...
www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/.../10.../10-09-92dnews-6.asp - Cached - Similar
They also eliminated two full-time and two part-time clerical positions and cut funding for the district attorney's drug detective.

However, the commissioners left open the possibility that the detective position could remain if it were funded by someone else, and the detective's salary could be funded from drug forfeiture money.

But Gricar said he only has enough money in that account to pay the detective's salary for six to eight months.

Board Chairwoman Vicki Wedler said police investigations are a municipal responsibility and suggested the police chiefs try to convince the municipalities to pay the detective's salary.

Patton Township Supervisor Elliot Abrams said he would be willing to listen to a proposal whereby the municipalities would cooperate to fund the detective. But this is a bad time for such a proposal since the township's budget for next year has already been completed, Abrams added.

Several people came before the commissioners to protest or question the layoffs, including some of the people whose jobs were cut.

"I don't see how you can justify cutting my position," McGinnis said, adding that several people in her office were willing to take pay cuts or even layoffs if she could stay on.

Sue Crowley, an administrative assistant for the public defender's office, agreed.

"We're willing to give things up if we can keep our staff," Crowley said.

Local police officers said that losing the detective will hurt law enforcement.

"If the county detective's position is eliminated, we're essentially out of the drug enforcement business other than what . . . falls into our lap," said Sgt. John Dodson of the Patton Township police.

Ferguson Township Police Chief Ed Connor agreed that drug enforcement would suffer if the detective were laid off, adding that he spoke on behalf of several local police chiefs who had met earlier that day.

The layoffs of the detective and the assistant district attorney positions each passed by a 2-1 vote, with Commissioner Keith Bierly dissenting. The other layoffs passed unanimously.

The commissioners said they were upset about having to lay off employees.

"This is far and away the most distasteful thing I have ever had to do," said Commissioner Denny Sciabica.

The state requires the county to offer services but gives the county only limited means to pay for them, Wedler said. A half-percent income tax would make up for the county's $2 million deficit, but state law only allows the county to levy property taxes, she said.

And there will be more layoffs, Wedler added.

"These are just the first. This is just the beginning. This is not the end," she said.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1992/10/10-09-92tdc/10-09-92dnews-6.asp
Read the whole article cause the layoffs is interesting like SS position.

[Cloudbuster]

Question is SS has remained on and did they rehire the drug detective since that article was so long ago?

[Politigal]

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in 1993 election rhetoric...(on the micromanager post)

[Cloudbuster]

Another question. Ray stared the largest drug bust so did it fall in their laps and if so I can't see him willingly handing it over to the AG's office can you? Where is the cookie list? In that photo of Ray, MM, and TC -Ray is mad and the paper cut out MM from the picture so was Ray mad at TC or MM or both????? What really happened to Ray's case? I can't see a MICROMANAGER handing over the biggest bust of that county.
JMOO

[sherrijean981]

Centre County is very busy the past week. Wonder how DA MM is going to hold up to all the drug dealer arrests, a murder in Tusseyville and another man shot in Boalsburg yesterday (supposedly self inflincted), about 7 miles from Tusseyville murder.

You were right LW, timing and location!

[J. J. in Phila]

I wasn't sure where to post this, and it didn't seem to warrant its own thread, so I guess "The Crockpot" is as good a place as any.

Some "Food for Thought."

People have often wondered where RG spent the night if the Saturday sightings are accurate. I'm not sure I recall much discussion about where and what RG ate on Friday, though.

PF said he had orange juice before she left the house. We've been told LE "searched" the house, but that "search" was just a walk through. I doubt they ever looked for things like evidence that a glass with RG's DNA or fingerprints had held orange juice.

Apparently PF left before RG ate breakfast, since she says he rolled over and went back to sleep. What were RG's breakfast habits? Did he skip breakfast, or was he a cereal guy, a pop tart guy, or a bacon and eggs guy? Either which way, did LE look for any evidence that RG had eaten breakfast--a cereal bowl and spoon in the sink or dishwasher, for instance, with his DNA/fingerprints?

If the phone call came from RG at 11:15-11:30-ish, RG must have left the house before lunch. So where did he eat lunch? Doubtful on Route 192, since there aren't a lot of options there. More options on 45 if he took that route as Logic has suggested. If he waited to eat lunch until allegedly arriving in Lewisburg, why didn't he show up on any of the 100+ hours of videotape reviewed by LE?

If he allegedly spent the night within 30 miles of Lewisburg (BB's suggestion of checking motels), where did he eat dinner?

Ah, some people don't eat breakfast; I don't as a rule. I know one guy who told me his breakfast was a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup and a Coke.

Also, because RFG was no doubt in the house, looking for his finger prints or DNA is pretty lame.

[Cloudbuster]

LW I agree with your post and thanks for some great insight!!! I am in pain so my time on here is limited lol. My hip is sticking up in the air, now that's bad lol. Need time to healish. When Im in better shape LW I will dig to see when the AG started taking Centre county drug busts. Although from what I researched it seems like right before Ray went out hmmmm. To be accurate though I need to dig deeper.

On a side note and I know Im on the wrong thread but I need to get off of here lol. Im in a rush. Today I was listening to that paranormal tape. I can tell you that there was a discussion about who paid for the wire and phone calls. Then it talked about who pays them (I think they was talking about informants. Then the discussion went on about the insurance and who was paying to much for it. Then it is my understanding that he and someone else stumbled on a persons payroll.

Another note, it seems Ray had to explain why he wanted to call Patty and he explained to the other person that he orginally told Patty he took a half day off "thats what I said". Therefore the need to call her was because orginally he told her he was taking a half day off and now he would be longer meaning the whole day. That is why he called. Only Patty could confirm this.

Funny thing is when he said this "Robert A told US you want to murder us". Then a discussion presents itself that "no one knows what time you said, it led us into the cold waters". I take that to mean that he was to meet this person but the person didn't give a time. Because of that it lead him and another into what sounded like a situation. I believe the situation caused him to toss either the drive or laptop sooner than it should have been. He seemed upset about what he tossed because it was to soon. That was the other persons fault for not giving a time.

[2-B]

Ah, some people don't eat breakfast; I don't as a rule. I know one guy who told me his breakfast was a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup and a Coke.

Ah, that's why I asked what RG's breakfast habits were. :rolleyes:

Most real men eat breakfast of some sort. Finding out what Ray's habits were could help pinpoint a number of things, not the least of which might be what and how much he ate that morning. That could lead to some educated guesses about lunch needs. If he had only a glass of orange juice and a piece of toast, it's unlikely he went through till dinner time with nothing to eat. At least that's my experience with feeding real men.

Also, because RFG was no doubt in the house, looking for his finger prints or DNA is pretty lame.

Hardly lame at all. When was the dishwasher last run? If it had been run the night before and then emptied, and a cereal bowl with RG's prints and traces of milk and cereal now sat in it, along with another cereal bowl with PF's prints and traces of milk and cereal, that could tell us something. Similar analysis on the pineapple dish led to all sorts of discussion, theories, and ramifications in the Ramsey case.

[Politigal]

yep, it's always good if you have *evidence* to corroborate a version of events.

Nothing "lame" about that at all.

[2-B]

I am in pain so my time on here is limited lol.

CB, hope you're feeling better soon. Bone/joint pain can be a real #*&$#.

[Politigal]

CB, hope you're feeling better soon. Bone/joint pain can be a real #*&$#.

ditto on the well wishes for CB

my tailbone agrees with ya 2-B :)

[sherrijean981]

Ah, that's why I asked what RG's breakfast habits were. :rolleyes:

Most real men eat breakfast of some sort. Finding out what Ray's habits were could help pinpoint a number of things, not the least of which might be what and how much he ate that morning. That could lead to some educated guesses about lunch needs. If he had only a glass of orange juice and a piece of toast, it's unlikely he went through till dinner time with nothing to eat. At least that's my experience with feeding real men.



Hardly lame at all. When was the dishwasher last run? If it had been run the night before and then emptied, and a cereal bowl with RG's prints and traces of milk and cereal now sat in it, along with another cereal bowl with PF's prints and traces of milk and cereal, that could tell us something. Similar analysis on the pineapple dish led to all sorts of discussion, theories, and ramifications in the Ramsey case.

"real" men, instead of "fake" men? My real man does not eat breakfast. He comes home at noon to eat.

[2-B]

"real" men, instead of "fake" men? My real man does not eat breakfast. He comes home at noon to eat.

Good grief, SJ. It's a joke. Didn't you ever watch Home Improvement? Not a Tim Allen fan? Oh well.

Yes, real men, not the kind who eat peanut butter cups and coke for breakfast. The kind who burn up thousands of calories a day because they are always doing something physical and therefore need to be fed real food on a regular schedule. I wanted to know if RG was that kind of eater or what his habits were to suggest ways to evaluate the evidence and speculate about lunch needs that Friday.

[Politigal]

Sunoco owner claims he's the fall guy in Madeira's web...(which wouldn't surprise me)

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1472603.html

[2-B]

A laugh for SJ this gloomy morning:

The 1982 book that gave us the term "Real Men":

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Men-Dont-Eat-Quiche/dp/0671448315 and

A genuine, long out-of-stock Home Improvement sweatshirt showing one small way Tim Allen capitalized on this term in his sit-com:

http://www.emerchandise.com/images/p/HIM/pdSWHIM0001.jpg

Too bad the sweatshirt is out-of-stock. It would make such a nice companion piece to the "Eschew Obfuscation" bumper sticker. :biggrin:

[Politigal]

back to breakfast or lunch....

*if* only police had searched for evidence of RG having orange juice, a muffin, or packing a bologna sandwich, a knife with mayonnaise on it, whatever....

[J. J. in Phila]

Good grief, SJ. It's a joke. Didn't you ever watch Home Improvement? Not a Tim Allen fan? Oh well.

Yes, real men, not the kind who eat peanut butter cups and coke for breakfast. The kind who burn up thousands of calories a day because they are always doing something physical and therefore need to be fed real food on a regular schedule. I wanted to know if RG was that kind of eater or what his habits were to suggest ways to evaluate the evidence and speculate about lunch needs that Friday.

If you knew I was talking about, you would be choking on your mouse. ;) I'll just let you hang yourself, once again.

Actually, either that day, or the day before, may not be too typical.

RFG didn't have a "physical" job and didn't look like he suffered from middle aged spread. He did exercise, from what we've been told, but I would not expect a "hearty breakfast."

In any event, finding traces of RFG in the house where he lived isn't exactly going to tell us anything. Numerous folks here made the point that his DNA in the water bottle was not conclusive evidence that RFG drove the car to Lewisburg; finding some in his house is less conclusive.

As for lunch; he had been in the habit of napping over lunch.

[Politigal]

If you knew I was talking about, you would be choking on your mouse. ;) I'll just let you hang yourself, once again.

snipped.

"If you knew I was talking about"


do they have Language at PSU?

[gstickley]

back to breakfast or lunch....

*if* only police had searched for evidence of RG having orange juice, a muffin, or packing a bologna sandwich, a knife with mayonnaise on it, whatever....

*if* only police had searched for evidence . . . of anything . . .

[2-B]

If you knew I was talking about, you would be choking on your mouse. ;) I'll just let you hang yourself, once again.

Actually, either that day, or the day before, may not be too typical.

RFG didn't have a "physical" job and didn't look like he suffered from middle aged spread. He did exercise, from what we've been told, but I would not expect a "hearty breakfast."

In any event, finding traces of RFG in the house where he lived isn't exactly going to tell us anything. Numerous folks here made the point that his DNA in the water bottle was not conclusive evidence that RFG drove the car to Lewisburg; finding some in his house is less conclusive.

As for lunch; he had been in the habit of napping over lunch.

It doesn't matter a whit who told you he eats peanut butter cups for breakfast, unless it was Ray Gricar who told you that.

It doesn't matter what you "would expect" Ray ate for breakfast. What matters is what Ray's breakfast habits were and what he actually ate that morning.

You've missed the whole point about DNA/fingerprints. Read the dishwasher stuff again--or did you miss it the first time? Or not understand it? I'll be happy to patiently explain it again if necessary.

If you don't think it could be important, go study the Great Pineapple Dish issue from the JBR case. Detective Steve Thomas managed to make physical traces of JBR on that dish part of his Patsy-Did-It Theory (not that I believed Patsy did it). Are you saying JBR wouldn't have left fingerprints, DNA, etc. in her own house?

Last, please provide a link for your (now repeated) claim that Gricar SKIPPED eating to nap at lunch. As I've previously pointed out, I have never read that. I have read that he took naps at lunch, but not that he skipped eating to nap. My "real man" (it's a joke, SJ) could down a sandwich in two minutes and nap for the remainder of the lunch break if he were going to nap at lunch.

[2-B]

do they have Language at PSU?

There's Penn State, and there's what they call Penn State Lite.

[Cloudbuster]

Thank you to the well wishers, Im getting there but not there yet lol.

I wanted to put up a interesting read which I got from the Luna case website. I found it interesting that the FBI was interviewed in April 2005. Apparently at that time they was having problems with confidential informants.

We also interviewed the FBI Director in April 2005.
http://www.yardbird.com/luna_downloads/Inspector_General_FBI_Informant_Report_9-05.pdf
The most
significant problems were failures to comply with the Confidential Informant
Guidelines. For example, we identified one or more Guidelines violations in
87 percent of the confidential informant files we examined. By contrast, we
found approximately 90 percent of the undercover operations and
consensual monitoring files we reviewed contained no authorization-related
Guidelines deficiencies.

[sherrijean981]

Thank you to the well wishers, Im getting there but not there yet lol.

I wanted to put up a interesting read which I got from the Luna case website. I found it interesting that the FBI was interviewed in April 2005. Apparently at that time they was having problems with confidential informants.

We also interviewed the FBI Director in April 2005.
http://www.yardbird.com/luna_downloads/Inspector_General_FBI_Informant_Report_9-05.pdf
The most
significant problems were failures to comply with the Confidential Informant
Guidelines. For example, we identified one or more Guidelines violations in
87 percent of the confidential informant files we examined. By contrast, we
found approximately 90 percent of the undercover operations and
consensual monitoring files we reviewed contained no authorization-related
Guidelines deficiencies.

Hope you are a little better anyways. Did you get to go see that guy the other day or were you not up to it?

Thanks for the link. I will have to read the article tomorrow. Computer needs to run programs now.

Good night, rest easy!

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks SJ!!!
Here is another must read to see why I posted the above.
http://www.yardbird.com/luna_downloads/Cohen_letter_12-2-05.pdf

[J. J. in Phila]

It doesn't matter a whit who told you he eats peanut butter cups for breakfast, unless it was Ray Gricar who told you that.

It doesn't matter what you "would expect" Ray ate for breakfast. What matters is what Ray's breakfast habits were and what he actually ate that morning.

You've missed the whole point about DNA/fingerprints. Read the dishwasher stuff again--or did you miss it the first time? Or not understand it? I'll be happy to patiently explain it again if necessary.

If you don't think it could be important, go study the Great Pineapple Dish issue from the JBR case. Detective Steve Thomas managed to make physical traces of JBR on that dish part of his Patsy-Did-It Theory (not that I believed Patsy did it). Are you saying JBR wouldn't have left fingerprints, DNA, etc. in her own house?

Last, please provide a link for your (now repeated) claim that Gricar SKIPPED eating to nap at lunch. As I've previously pointed out, I have never read that. I have read that he took naps at lunch, but not that he skipped eating to nap. My "real man" (it's a joke, SJ) could down a sandwich in two minutes and nap for the remainder of the lunch break if he were going to nap at lunch.

2-B, it was UTR who complained that the water bottle (with DNA) in the Mini could have been in there for a while. So could any fingerprints or DNA in a house that RFG lived in for more than a year. :rolleyes:

It becomes silly to complain that LE didn't look for RFG's print/DNA in his residence.

Unless RFG was "sleep eating" he wasn't eating lunch while he was napping.

You know, it's comments like that is part of the reason people think he walked away. Those people trying to claim it was murder look too desperate. (Which is really troubling, because it might have been murder.)

[Politigal]

JJ, you're the one who is silly, for claiming that Bellefonte Police should not have looked for evidence.

Sad thing is....they apparently didn't.

They could have looked for evidence that Gricar was there that morning...a wet toothbrush, an orange juice glass with his DNA on it (surely Patty washed dishes frequently), etc.

[2-B]

2-B, it was UTR who complained that the water bottle (with DNA) in the Mini could have been in there for a while. So could any fingerprints or DNA in a house that RFG lived in for more than a year. :rolleyes:

It becomes silly to complain that LE didn't look for RFG's print/DNA in his residence.

Unless RFG was "sleep eating" he wasn't eating lunch while he was napping.

You know, it's comments like that is part of the reason people think he walked away. Those people trying to claim it was murder look too desperate. (Which is really troubling, because it might have been murder.)

Um, no, JJ, I'd say there are some pretty desperate attempts at rebuttal in your response.

1. DNA/fingerprints on a cereal bowl and DNA in the water bottle in the Mini Cooper are, like, so apples and oranges.

a. The DNA in the water bottle couldn't prove Gricar was in Lewisburg because it merely went for a ride in the Mini Cooper and no one can prove, to this day, who drove the Mini Cooper to Lewisburg. That's the issue with the DNA in the water bottle.

b. With DNA/fingerprints and a cereal bowl, we're not talking DNA/fingerprints on a door jamb, on the ceiling, on a computer screen, on a basement floor, on a refrigerator door, or wherever. In most houses, there's a very regular pattern to this thing called dish washing, either by hand or by dishwasher.

As I said, this very issue was part of a MAJOR DEAL in the Jon Benet Ramsey case and Detective Steve Thomas made it part of his MAJOR DEAL argument in his case against Patsy Ramsey.

2. Once again, no one has ever claimed Gricar skipped lunch to nap. I have read only that he was napping at lunch time, and you haven't provided any links to show he napped rather than ate.

Once again, real men (it's a joke, SJ) can wolf down a sandwich in two minutes flat and use the rest of their lunch time to nap.

If you've got something which proves Gricar was no longer eating lunch in those weeks prior to the disappearance, I'm sure we'd all be interested in it. That would be evidence of depression--loss of interest in food. Funny how you've never raised that before now if you've had that evidence all along.

Meanwhile, why are you afraid of people wanting to know what Gricar might have eaten for breakfast and when he might have been hungry enough for lunch that day??

[sherrijean981]

A body has been found in Centre County, Miles Township, 12 miles east of Rebersburg on Rd 192. The road is Buckhorn Dr on the Google Map, not Buckhorn Rd. and it is across from Tunis Rd.

Scan in at the highest number and you can see the area.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/1479305.html

[J. J. in Phila]

For some unknown reason, "Sporadic Comments on the Gricar Case" is down.

I received a message from TXSlueth last night indicating that one of her comments was deleted. An approved comment from "TXslueth" and two from "Erasernut," along with two of my responses were lost (a third post from Erasernut was off topic and not approved). As indicated "TXslueth" contacted me and was invited to re-post.

I noticed that both the blog titles would not appear; my photo was also missing.

I have e-mailed the editor and technical support person at the CDT earlier on 9/1/09. I have had no explanation, but it could be a technical problem. I know that, as of this morning, at least some people could read it.

I indicated that I would be doing this series, titled "The Investigation," and would cover both the conduct of the police and the District Attorney, in late July of 2009. What I had planned to write about was not unknown.

To date, I have had no complaints from the editor. I have not received any "suggestion" from him not to write about any topic. Had I had any complaints from the editor, I would have been more than willing to either pull a particular entry or reword things. (I write a lot in real live and do deal with editors. I do get re-written and am use to it.)

At the time it went down, it was the highest rated blog on the CDT site; I am unaware of any complaints.

While I can read the blog, if you go to it you will see: "This community member's page is currently being reviewed by the editors." I asked for a review and I don't know if this is it or not.

In short, I don't know what happened either. Please, before we jump to any conclusions, let's wait until we see what happened. Keep in mind that there might be nothing more nefarious here than a technical problem.

[sherrijean981]

JJ, I noticed this afternoon it was not working. I sent a note to one of the editors to see when it would be back up. Actually it is one of my first stops on my reading in the mornings. I miss it!

It did have RG's photo and the page #'s listed but you couldn't access it.

After reading a lot of the comments on stories on the CDT you have no worries about anything said on your blog. Some of the comments on MM and tonight on Jim Bryant are mean. The comments on the murder last week in Centre County have been are the same way and they are all still there.

Time to get back to my maps.

[2-B]

I received a message from TXSlueth last night indicating that one of her comments was deleted. An approved comment from "TXslueth" and two from "Erasernut," along with two of my responses were lost (a third post from Erasernut was off topic and not approved). As indicated "TXslueth" contacted me and was invited to re-post.



A point of clarification: As I understand it, TxSleuth had approved a comment on her blog.

[Politigal]

It's interesting ....

one of the CDT staff's blogs has the same message as JJ's.

Chris Rosenblum - CDT Staffer's page:

http://www.centredaily.com/personas/?plckPersonaPage=PersonaBlog&plckUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-5397&insiteUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-5397&sid=pluck.centredaily.com

His last post was "Madeira on the Mike"


wonder if that name has anything to do with it??

[Politigal]

A point of clarification: As I understand it, TxSleuth had approved a comment on her blog.

Yes, someone had made a post on my blog and it was deleted for no reason...It was simply a link to the official Bellefonte Police Flyer on the Gricar case.

go figger

[2-B]

It's interesting ....

one of the CDT staff's blogs has the same message as JJ's.



That writer's blog entries remain, however.

[Politigal]

That writer's blog entries remain, however.

maybe because he's a staffer??

:shrug:

the missing blogs can still be found in google's cache

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:S5h-iscTcNcJ:community.centredaily.com/%3Fq%3Dblog/2+bob+heisse+gricar&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[J. J. in Phila]

A point of clarification: As I understand it, TxSleuth had approved a comment on her blog.

That's not what I'm referring to. TXslueth posted a comment on my blog, which I approved (didn't necessarily agree). I posted a followup. I checked some information (it was when DZ made the comment that he thought RFG was murder) and posted a second comment. I then heard from TXslueth that her approved comment was removed.

P'gal, I could still read the Rosenblum blog, though it is under review. Also, the prior six blogs didn't mention Mr. Madeira, even in passing.

[Cloudbuster]

Just a thought but the grange fair is going on till Thursday and alot of people from all over come to this. Maybe someone didn't want all those extra papers to be given to all those outsiders that are there. Paper sells go up during this time. Hmmm....
On the other hand it could be a coindence.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a thought but the grange fair is going on till Thursday and alot of people from all over come to this. Maybe someone didn't want all those extra papers to be given to all those outsiders that are there. Paper sells go up during this time. Hmmm....
On the other hand it could be a coindence.

It is/was the top rated blog; people were going to the site to read it. The blog only appears/appeared on-line.

[J. J. in Phila]

The blog is back up and the cause appears to have been a technical problem.

As I have indicated, I have had no complaints from the editor and would be happy to let him review any entry or listen, at least, to any changes he'd suggest. He has made no request to do either to date.

I really think that, if you missed my blog, you should say thank you to the Centre Daily Times.

[Politigal]

learned of a few cigarette smokers who worked in the courthouse in April 05....

1 - an ADA

2 - a VA

3 - works in Public Defender office

[Politigal]

Police stumbled upon a body in a vehicle submerged in the Monongahela River today (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997642-455.stm).
snipped


updated reports show that the body was found in a pickup truck in the river and that the truck was reported missing in 2005.....and that State Police have also brought in Baldwin Borough Police for the investigation. So, it seems that this truck originated in Baldwin Borough...IMO

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20876655/detail.html

[2-B]

But forensics just took a hit:
Federal report finds deficiencies in use of forensics in criminal cases (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997521-455.stm) (apologies if already linked in this forum somewhere)

You can look at this as a hit or as a step forward, depending upon the angle you're viewing it from.

I see it as a step forward, much like the 1999 DOJ Guidelines for Eyewitness Testimony.

What this says, essentially, is that forensic science in the courtroom (minus DNA) has not been held to consistently high standards and that those standards need to be established and enforced.

I think that's something to applaud.

The question is how the scientific community and the courts will react to any recommendations made.

For all the work put into the DOJ guidelines on eyewitness testimony, the LE community and the courts have been slow to adopt the recommendations. So we shall have to see what happens on the forensics side.

My opinion only.

[Politigal]

I agree 2-B - I think "raising the bar" is a good thing.

The main gist from the article --

with the exception of DNA analysis, the examination of fingerprints, tool marks, bite marks, handwriting, hair samples and other forensic samples hasn't consistently shown with a high degree of certainty a connection between such evidence and a specific individual or source

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997521-455.stm#ixzz0R08MrVTF

IMO, computer forensics should also definitely be included. And I still say that Bellefonte cannot prove who performed those computer searches. They can assume from other known info/circumstances but they cannot prove it.

[2-B]

IMO, computer forensics should also definitely be included. And I still say that Bellefonte cannot prove who performed those computer searches. They can assume from other known info/circumstances but they cannot prove it.

I think the difference would be that no computer technician has ever gone into court and and testified that Person X performed these searches or performed this particular operation on a given computer. The most a computer expert will do/has done is to say that certain things have been found on a given computer. Then the prosecution argues that a particular person was the one who "must" have done it.

OTOH, forensic experts in hair, fiber, bite marks, fingerprints, etc. have come to court testifying that a given hair is "consistent with" the hair of a defendant or that a bite mark "matches" the bite pattern belonging to a defendant, etc.

I would bet you no computer expert would go into court in the Gricar case and and state that Ray Gricar performed the alleged searches for "how to wreck a hard drive," "how to fry a hard drive," etc.

[sherrijean981]

CB, you were talking about items from a drug bust and where they are stored. This article posted today in our local paper explains what is going on with items from Mifflin County drug busts. This is the second auction they have had.

Also there is a statement at the end, wondering when all these crimes took place. Guess it isn't just Centre County that doesn't report all crime reports in the papers. Or the reporters don't go to police departments for their reports.

I am amazed at the amount of items at this sale.

http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/515214.html?nav=5006

[Cloudbuster]

SJ thanks its a interesting read. I still can't find no cookie list for a million dollar heroin bust. Funds went to who ? TC or RG's office? RG started the case and somehow the AG took over. RG knew there would be goods and money coming out of this. What we don't know is where is the missing cookie list, it seems to have disappeared just as RG has disappeared. Surely RG would be expecting some of the cookie dough.

[Politigal]

SJ thanks its a interesting read. I still can't find no cookie list for a million dollar heroin bust. Funds went to who ? TC or RG's office? RG started the case and somehow the AG took over. RG knew there would be goods and money coming out of this. What we don't know is where is the missing cookie list, it seems to have disappeared just as RG has disappeared. Surely RG would be expecting some of the cookie dough.

surely freedom of information would be applicable to any monies or properties gained thru drug busts -- why not write Tom Corbett an email?

[Cloudbuster]

Police stumbled upon a body in a vehicle submerged in the Monongahela River today (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997642-455.stm).

Body found in Pa. gamelands ruled homcide (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997602-100.stm)

Maybe two families will get some answers soon.

But forensics just took a hit:
Federal report finds deficiencies in use of forensics in criminal cases (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09255/997521-455.stm) (apologies if already linked in this forum somewhere)

Saunterer you are creeping me out it must be near halloween. I thought the vechicle with a body INTHAT AREA might be my missing sister with a borrowed missing car. Although she was once missing before there are some mysterious factors involved. Of all areas to pick saunterer???? Why that area? My sis has been missing since August 20th with a friends car she borrowed for work. On August 20th she never showed to work. She was about to come into a settlement so there was no real reason to leave and leave her 12 year old son behind right before school was to start.

You are getting creepy lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

SJ thanks its a interesting read. I still can't find no cookie list for a million dollar heroin bust. Funds went to who ? TC or RG's office? RG started the case and somehow the AG took over. RG knew there would be goods and money coming out of this. What we don't know is where is the missing cookie list, it seems to have disappeared just as RG has disappeared. Surely RG would be expecting some of the cookie dough.

I think that they are usually sold at auction, but I think that the proceeds go to the state directly, not the county.

Also, what gets sold is the property and/or funds from the profits from drug sales. If a dealer sells enough drugs to buy a Mercedes, the Mercedes gets sold.

[sherrijean981]

I think that they are usually sold at auction, but I think that the proceeds go to the state directly, not the county.

Also, what gets sold is the property and/or funds from the profits from drug sales. If a dealer sells enough drugs to buy a Mercedes, the Mercedes gets sold.


http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/515214.html?nav=5006

You need to read the article, JJ. Mifflin County keeps the money. They use it to pay overtime to officers on drug investigations, using it to teach kids about the affects of drugs, etc.

They sell the cars because of seeing the same vehicle being used by numerous drug dealers. DA Snook said if a car is used to deal drugs, they will take it. They recently had a drug bust here in Milroy, took the home and everything in it and auctioned it off. DA Snook is hard on drug dealers and crime.

[J. J. in Phila]

I looked at the statute and it looks like the proceeds can only be used for enforcing drug laws, by the DA, and related matters. 6801. Controlled substances forfeiture, Subsection f.

However, if the AG's Office/PSP are involved, they get equitable distribution. Subsection G.

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/judiciary-and-judicial-procedure/00.068.001.000.html

If it's like the Lee case, little, if any, go to the local DA's.

[Politigal]

learned of a few cigarette smokers who worked in the courthouse in April 05....

1 - an ADA

2 - a VA

3 - works in Public Defender office

I wanted to add to my post above

#1 was a very good friend of Gricar's (and reportedly not interviewed by Zaccagni)

#2 was a very good friend, neighbor and colleague of Patty's

You would think that upon finding cigarette ash in the vehicle, that police would have asked Patty which of Gricar's friends might be smokers...eh??

[J. J. in Phila]

I wanted to add to my post above

#1 was a very good friend of Gricar's (and reportedly not interviewed by Zaccagni)

#2 was a very good friend, neighbor and colleague of Patty's

You would think that upon finding cigarette ash in the vehicle, that police would have asked Patty which of Gricar's friends might be smokers...eh??

Old girlfriend of RFG, not from Centre County, matched description of MW. Also a smoker.

[Politigal]

Old girlfriend of RFG, not from Centre County, matched description of MW. Also a smoker.

JKA didn't describe this person as a girlfriend - just a friend.

And the other smokers were local.....What's really troubling to me is that Zaccagni didn't interview #1. And you would think that Patty would have definitely told Zaccagni about #1.....

sumpin's definitely fishy there IMO

[J. J. in Phila]

JKA didn't describe this person as a girlfriend - just a friend.

And the other smokers were local.....What's really troubling to me is that Zaccagni didn't interview #1. And you would think that Patty would have definitely told Zaccagni about #1.....

sumpin's definitely fishy there IMO

But she has been referred to as such.

Nobody said DZ didn't interview her, only that her time line had not been checked. A distinction with a difference.

[Politigal]

But she has been referred to as such.

Nobody said DZ didn't interview her, only that her time line had not been checked. A distinction with a difference.

I didn't say that Zaccagni had not interviewed the woman who was a friend of Gricar's.

I said Zaccagni didn't interview #1 on my list of smokers - the ADA.

[J. J. in Phila]

I didn't say that Zaccagni had not interviewed the woman who was a friend of Gricar's.

I said Zaccagni didn't interview #1 on my list of smokers - the ADA.

The thing was, the ADA didn't match the description of the MW.

[Politigal]

The thing was, the ADA didn't match the description of the MW.

You would think that police would look first at those closest to Gricar.....

And especially since the cigarette ash was found & known before any witnesses reported seeing Gricar.

[J. J. in Phila]

You would think that police would look first at those closest to Gricar.....

And especially since the cigarette ash was found & known before any witnesses reported seeing Gricar.

We know that witness report was very early; it was definitely known by 11:00 AM on 4/17, and possibly on 4/16/05. And we had TG and CG raising suicide; LE started checking the river on 4/17.

There is also the probability that the ADA's location was known. The ADA may have been contacted on the morning of 4/16, been at the office on 4/15 and was at work on 4/18.

Now, all that said, the office staff is in that Inner Circle.

[Politigal]

We know that witness report was very early; it was definitely known by 11:00 AM on 4/17, and possibly on 4/16/05. And we had TG and CG raising suicide; LE started checking the river on 4/17.

There is also the probability that the ADA's location was known. The ADA may have been contacted on the morning of 4/16, been at the office on 4/15 and was at work on 4/18.

Now, all that said, the office staff is in that Inner Circle.

I don't believe the ADA was working...............

And regardless, if police were looking for people associated with Gricar who smoked, yet they didn't talk to him......something's wrong there.

IMO, it's possible they were not aware that he smokes occasionally.

And I feel certain that PF would have been aware that he smoked.

I'm just stumped why he wouldn't be the *first* person tested against those butts.

But then again, perhaps he was & they just didn't release that info.

:shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't believe the ADA was working...............

And regardless, if police were looking for people associated with Gricar who smoked, yet they didn't talk to him......something's wrong there.

IMO, it's possible they were not aware that he smokes occasionally.

And I feel certain that PF would have been aware that he smoked.

I'm just stumped why he wouldn't be the *first* person tested against those butts.

But then again, perhaps he was & they just didn't release that info.

:shrug:

There are a few million people that smoke, including the current President. The MW didn't meet his description either.

I'm not stumped at all, especially since the ADA was a "he."

The real question is where were those members of the Inner Circle?

[Politigal]

There are a few million people that smoke, including the current President. The MW didn't meet his description either.

I'm not stumped at all, especially since the ADA was a "he."

The real question is where were those members of the Inner Circle?

jj jj jj....:rolleyes:

you just keep forgetting the facts though --- none of the witness sightings were confirmed. That means there's no evidence that Gricar was actually seen by anyone ...much less that he was with a mystery woman.

[J. J. in Phila]

jj jj jj....:rolleyes:

you just keep forgetting the facts though --- none of the witness sightings were confirmed. That means there's no evidence that Gricar was actually seen by anyone ...much less that he was with a mystery woman.


P'gal, you still don't understand. They had this information on 4/17.

1. Witness report that RFG was with a woman.

2. There was the scent of smoke and some ash in the Mini.

3. RFG knew a woman matching that description who was a smoker.

4. It would make sense for RFG to meet this woman in Lewisburg, for a number of reasons.

You are claiming the very first thing they should do is look for a man. :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

P'gal, you still don't understand. They had this information on 4/17.

1. Witness report that RFG was with a woman.

2. There was the scent of smoke and some ash in the Mini.

3. RFG knew a woman matching that description who was a smoker.

4. It would make sense for RFG to meet this woman in Lewisburg, for a number of reasons.

You are claiming the very first thing they should do is look for a man. :rolleyes:

First of all *and* more importantly, you have the sequence of events wrong IMO.

#1 car was found & immediately upon opening they smelled cigarette smoke and found the ash in the passenger floorboard

#2 *Did* police ask family which of RG's and/or PF's friends might be smokers????

#3 police check at the SOS and the car being found is reported in the media

#4 witnesses make claims

[2-B]

First of all *and* more importantly, you have the sequence of events wrong IMO.

#1 car was found & immediately upon opening they smelled cigarette smoke and found the ash in the passenger floorboard

#2 *Did* police ask family which of RG's and/or PF's friends might be smokers????

#3 police check at the SOS and the car being found is reported in the media

#4 witnesses make claims

Right, Pgal. And let's add this to the mix:

Gricar didn't smoke, but police said it smelled of cigarettes inside the car and they are taking a closer look at DNA evidence on cigarette butts found nearby.

Darrel Zaccagni of the Bellefonte police said, "Early on when we had (the cigarette butts), I think we all thought he was just getting away for the weekend - have a wild weekend and just think about some stuff."

http://www.wjactv.com/news/8700716/detail.html

If this possibility was discussed among LE when the car was opened and the smell of cigarettes came out of the car, bystanders might well have overheard the conversation. Yellow tape doesn't prevent voices from carrying.

[2-B]

In this statement made during the Sarah James interview, it states that it was a man in the SOS who claims to have seen the 'couple'. I would guess that would be either Bennett or Alvey, whose stories changed from no one saw anything to then seeing him Friday, then Saturday, even Sunday, IIRC, and then the 'couple' story emerges......
It seems the more time went by, the more they thought they remembered------.

Sounds just like what you've said, 2- B---the more they heard, the more they saw.



From---Missing district attorney
Pennsylvania DA takes a day off work, and is never seen again

Updated: 3:14 a.m. ET May 15, 2006

BELLEFONTE, PENNSYLVANIA -

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: Suddenly, the chief law enforcement officer of the county is gone without any explanation?


------Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.

Police canvassed hotels and homes nearby, searching for the mystery woman, with no luck.

And his family says there is no way he would put them through the agony of not knowing his whereabouts.

JMO

Excellent post, Logic.

It's been my experience that if you study missing persons' cases, you'll see a pattern emerge with regard to witness reports, which is this: by and large, they tend to mirror what is available to the public through media, gossip, innuendo, etc.

When poor Annie Le went missing Tuesday a week ago at Yale, there were no reported sightings of the PhD candidate, despite some initial rumblings about a possible "runaway bride" scenario. Why? Because almost immediately the media made it clear to the public that Annie's swipe card had been used to enter the lab but not to exit. That fact all but ruled out the potential for so-called empathy sightings in the Le case.

In any other case where theories are floated and details make their way to the public giving the public hope that a missing person may still be "out there" and alive, the public will provide LE with sightings to match what's also "out there."

[J. J. in Phila]

In this statement made during the Sarah James interview, it states that it was a man in the SOS who claims to have seen the 'couple'. I would guess that would be either Bennett or Alvey, whose stories changed from no one saw anything to then seeing him Friday, then Saturday, even Sunday, IIRC, and then the 'couple' story emerges......
It seems the more time went by, the more they thought they remembered------.

Sounds just like what you've said, 2- B---the more they heard, the more they saw.



From---Missing district attorney
Pennsylvania DA takes a day off work, and is never seen again

Updated: 3:14 a.m. ET May 15, 2006

BELLEFONTE, PENNSYLVANIA -

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: Suddenly, the chief law enforcement officer of the county is gone without any explanation?


------Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.

Police canvassed hotels and homes nearby, searching for the mystery woman, with no luck.

And his family says there is no way he would put them through the agony of not knowing his whereabouts.

JMO

It wasn't Bennett, who saw RFG on 4/16. Alvey is a possibility, but there was a second (at least one), unidentified, witness who saw him on 4/15 in the evening in the SoS. Alvey is unsure if it was in the evening of 4/15 or 4/16, though I'm treating it as 4/15.

As noted, whomever reported it, was the first witness LE had, so it was someone before Bennett. There was also no story change. Alvey said he saw nothing unusual, and talking to to a woman wasn't unusual.

I only have heard of one witness, however, that spotted RFG with the MW.

[ladyheartfixer]

It wasn't Bennett, who saw RFG on 4/16. Alvey is a possibility, but there was a second (at least one), unidentified, witness who saw him on 4/15 in the evening in the SoS. Alvey is unsure if it was in the evening of 4/15 or 4/16, though I'm treating it as 4/15.

As noted, whomever reported it, was the first witness LE had, so it was someone before Bennett. There was also no story change. Alvey said he saw nothing unusual, and talking to to a woman wasn't unusual.

I only have heard of one witness, however, that spotted RFG with the MW.

unless you are LE or a PI or someone from a dlegated task force investigating this case your "I'm treating it as 4/15." holds little value. What you hold as true may not be what others hold true and vice versa....that has been something that has needed said for a long time...so unless you want to out yourself as LE with deep inside information...maybe you had better temper what you say with that same quote. Just a little FYI CYA info.

[2-B]

As noted, whomever reported it, was the first witness LE had, so it was someone before Bennett.

You keep saying this but have offered no evidence for the claim other than a misinterpreted sentence from a news article. You've been asked this before, but can you provide any evidence beyond that misinterpreted sentence?

Bennett's sighting included in the AP report published a scant six hours after the car was found, so he was obviously a very early witness.

[2-B]

I also think that the surmising that was done on Saturday evening, notably be DetZ, cannot be overlooked, nor is it likely that it was not picked up on by others, whether through questioning or simply listening.



That's exactly what I'm saying. While the possibilities of suicide and foul play were also in the air, those theories were essentially eliminated for the public in various ways by media coverage. The river searches turned up no body or evidence that cadaver dogs had any hits, thus reducing the chance of suicide. Media reports showed no evidence of a struggle or other signs of foul play at the car, reducing in people's minds the chance of foul play.

A post I read (at WS, I think) from a Lewisburg local said that the MW issue had been well-known locally for the year prior to the "Big Reveal" in May 2006. It obviously got "out there" somehow.

[sherrijean981]

In this statement made during the Sarah James interview, it states that it was a man in the SOS who claims to have seen the 'couple'. I would guess that would be either Bennett or Alvey, whose stories changed from no one saw anything to then seeing him Friday, then Saturday, even Sunday, IIRC, and then the 'couple' story emerges......
It seems the more time went by, the more they thought they remembered------.

Sounds just like what you've said, 2- B---the more they heard, the more they saw.



From---Missing district attorney
Pennsylvania DA takes a day off work, and is never seen again

Updated: 3:14 a.m. ET May 15, 2006

BELLEFONTE, PENNSYLVANIA -

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: Suddenly, the chief law enforcement officer of the county is gone without any explanation?


------Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.

Police canvassed hotels and homes nearby, searching for the mystery woman, with no luck.

And his family says there is no way he would put them through the agony of not knowing his whereabouts.

JMO

30's - early 40 yr old?? Would that have been the friend of RG's everyone thought or a different person? I thought that woman was older?

More PF's age than RG's.

[Cloudbuster]

I thought I would bring this up because you are talking about witnesses.
My sis has been missing since August 20th and we have our second witness account. I can tell you that both accounts are completly wrong. I know this because there is a police station that has seen her daily on a certain road in their area. She no longer has the car she was driving either. They know its her because she has been taken in for questions pertaining to something. They have her name. They keep telling me that a adult is allowed to be missing and they don't recommend me trying to get her due to safety issues in that area. They said they will handle this another way. Both witnesses was completly wroooong. Perhaps thats why LE took certain witnesses more serious than others but they missed the biggest witness and that was CFenton, because she knew Ray and because he was close enough for her to identify him.

[sherrijean981]

I thought I would bring this up because you are talking about witnesses.
My sis has been missing since August 20th and we have our second witness account. I can tell you that both accounts are completly wrong. I know this because there is a police station that has seen her daily on a certain road in their area. She no longer has the car she was driving either. They know its her because she has been taken in for questions pertaining to something. They have her name. They keep telling me that a adult is allowed to be missing and they don't recommend me trying to get her due to safety issues in that area. They said they will handle this another way. Both witnesses was completly wroooong. Perhaps thats why LE took certain witnesses more serious than others but they missed the biggest witness and that was CFenton, because she knew Ray and because he was close enough for her to identify him.

CB, sorry you still have to worry about your sister. It is a shame she can't be kinder to you and at least let you know she is alive. At least LE told you she was.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks SJ!! I told her time and time again to call even if its just a voice mail recording. The chief told me that even his family is dealing with someone like her. He said every family has one. The lady dispatcher is also going thru a similair situation for last 2 years. She hasn't heard from her brother for 2 years.

The 2 witnesses used her very long blond hair to identify her but it wasn't her. In Ray's case I think some are using his red mini cooper to identify him.

I do believe Cinds witness needs checked because he was next to the car and was observing the mini and did get a look at the driver as he waved.

Why I think CFentons sighting is important is because
1 She knew Ray and
2 The mini was not the car he was in. So she did not use the mini cooper in her account. She identified him by his looks only.

The museum sighting is just a observation of a delivered red mini cooper, and that's all it really is. That's why there is no:
1.scent
2.no struggle evidence

Funny how someone placed all Ray's belongs so close together
mini cooper
laptop
hard drive (if is his)
Someone is really misleading LE to that area specifically. Wonder if that is because they are watching the investagation back then?
OR is it because it was easier for the person to put the laptop and drive
there without being noticed at all.

Fits someone perhaps involved in the investagation. I wonder if they thought about that? No need for the person to take a chance planting evidence when they are all involved in the search and easily planted the items. See the person wouldn't stand out at all. Clever I say.:crying:

[Cloudbuster]

Funny how Johnathon Luna had a large drug case he was working on at his office that evening.

Ray also started a large heroin case and was due in court that Monday on a drug case.

Luna's car found near a creek (water)
Rays car near water

Luna's items end up all together, just like Ray's
Luna's body -car- much later the murder weapon knife returned to the scene.

That knife was placed there in reports on the Luna case.
I believe Rays laptop, hard drive later placed there near the car.

I cannot believe they can't see any similarity. It's obvious that the heroin industry is sending messages and they don't get it. Did they have a informant that left shortly after Ray disappeared??? In Luna's case they was looking at a informant.

Im speaking from experience on this one. Make no mistake informants do drugs and it's overlooked. I know what I know about my sis because the cops are being INFORMED daily by someone doing exactly what she is doing. It's just a thought but did a informant leave after Ray disappeared...? I hope they are reading this lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

Soory to hear about your sister.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks JJ!! Now its just a waiting game situation. They can't get her off the street till she misses upcoming hearings. They are and we are hoping she stays out of harms way till then. The drug under world is nothing but a nightmare. No one hates it more than me lol. Its insane what these people will do and what they turn into once it gets a hold of them.

[2-B]

You keep saying this but have offered no evidence for the claim other than a misinterpreted sentence from a news article. You've been asked this before, but can you provide any evidence beyond that misinterpreted sentence?

Bennett's sighting included in the AP report published a scant six hours after the car was found, so he was obviously a very early witness.

Bumping this question again for JJ. See post #517 for original context.
TIA for an answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Bumping this question again for JJ. See post #517 for original context.
TIA for an answer.

Sited in the blogs. Bennett said it in the Joseph article, I think it was Joseph, as well. These were cited; you will have to do your own research.

[2-B]

Sited in the blogs. Bennett said it in the Joseph article, I think it was Joseph, as well. These were cited; you will have to do your own research.

I see my thanks in advance were premature. Oh well. That particular point is not important enough to me to make me wade through your blog entries again. It appears you're only trying to build a case for lack of outside influence on that witness (a case which is easily deconstructed).

ETA: There's nothing in the Joseph article indicating any sequence of witnesses reporting to LE.

Let's try another unanswered question then:

Do you have any evidence that any Lewisburg witness reported details identifying alleged sightings of RG with THE Mini-Cooper belonging to RG and PF as opposed to any other Mini-Cooper or any other small red car?

Thanks in advance for an answer.

[2-B]

One more question while I have your attention, JJ.

Do you have any source for the claim you've made that RG was not eating during his lunch hour in the weeks prior to the disappearance?

I'm not picking on you, really.

I'm just spending some time trying to track down whether there's any actual evidence for various unsupported claims I've found on the board.

[J. J. in Phila]

One more question while I have your attention, JJ.

Do you have any source for the claim you've made that RG was not eating during his lunch hour in the weeks prior to the disappearance?

I'm not picking on you, really.

I'm just spending some time trying to track down whether there's any actual evidence for various unsupported claims I've found on the board.

Well, I said that he was taking naps over lunch, and that has been long reported. It was the basis of the search warrant for RFG's medical records. Remember?

The sequence of the witnesses, which one LE had first, was cited in the blog on Madeira taking over the investigation. When Bennett saw RFG was mentioned in the Joseph article, IIRC. Bennett was Saturday. The MW witness was Friday.

Aside from that, from what I've heard, the MW witness reported it on 4/16, which is consistent with being the first witness.

These things have been hashed and rehashed on the board even before I came here. Keep spinning. :lol:

[2-B]

Well, I said that he was taking naps over lunch, and that has been long reported. It was the basis of the search warrant for RFG's medical records. Remember?

Yes, of course I remember that RG had been napping at lunch, but I have never seen that he napped instead of eating. It's the "instead of" which is the unsupported claim I'm looking for evidence of.

Can you explain whether you have actual evidence that he skipped meals or whether you are merely assuming that he did so? The answer could be relevant to issues of depression.

The sequence of the witnesses, which one LE had first, was cited in the blog on Madeira taking over the investigation. When Bennett saw RFG was mentioned in the Joseph article, IIRC. Bennett was Saturday. The MW witness was Friday.

Aside from that, from what I've heard, the MW witness reported it on 4/16, which is consistent with being the first witness.

This passage appears in an AP report which was published before midnight on 4/16:

State police found Gricar's red-and-white Mini Cooper on Saturday evening in a dirt parking lot on the outskirts of Lewisburg, but found no sign of the missing man, Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon said. The owner of an antiques store across the street said Gricar may have been in his shop earlier in the day, Dixon said.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1385294/posts?page=14#14

This report obviously refers to Bennett's sighting. Bennett had obviously reported his alleged RG sighting to LE prior to Scolforo gathering his facts, writing his article, and getting it on line.

Only about six hours elapsed between the time the car was found and when the AP article went on line. I am still left curious, therefore, as to how you have determined that the so-called "MW witness"--in that six hour time frame--would necessarily have reported the MW sighting prior to Bennett reporting his sighting. There is nothing in print to suggest that this is so.

These things have been hashed and rehashed on the board even before I came here. Keep spinning. :lol:

I am merely asking questions so as to clarify certain details which have not been clarified--even by your most recent post.

I notice also that you have neglected the question about the car. Thanks in advance for supporting evidence regarding the car claim, as well as any further clarification you can add to my questions above.

[ladyheartfixer]

Awwww 2-B...your questions are so in need of answers...but...JJ has the same info we all have...he just "manipulates and conjugates" it differently than most people. Unless he has some "secret squirrel" in LE that is feeding him little "nuts" of info then all his blog does is rehash...just as he says we do here....thanks in advance :tongueside: for trying to get at all the info as the blog turns and churns....

[gstickley]

Awwww 2-B...your questions are so in need of answers...but...JJ has the same info we all have...he just "manipulates and conjugates" it differently than most people. Unless he has some "secret squirrel" in LE that is feeding him little "nuts" of info then all his blog does is rehash...just as he says we do here....thanks in advance :tongueside: for trying to get at all the info as the blog turns and churns....

LHF, ya got the makin's of a movie or book there: "As the blob turns & churns". :tonguewag:

[gstickley]

JJinPhila (aka J. J. in Phila): "A blog is not the forum for any "free-flow exchange," but a blog. You are free to start your own blog; I have not discouraged others from starting them or readers from reading others."
http://www.centredaily.com/personas/?insiteUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-2058&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-2058&plckPostId=Blog%3a42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-2058Post%3a428a1443-ac63-46bf-a788-87bb97bc569e&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest

In other words, blogs are nothing more than one person's "reality". Can I get an "amen" on this?

Yes, you certainly can! Amen.

[Politigal]

the first 3 witnesses

Alvey (restaurant owner) (who changed his story from seeing Gricar on Friday to Saturday)

Bennett (mall owner)

The unnamed woman near the museum (business owner)

Centre Daily Times (State College, PA) - April 22, 2005

THIRD WITNESS SAYS SHE SAW GRICAR
BELLEFONTE -- The collection of clues is growing, but Bellefonte police still have no answer as to the whereabouts of District Attorney Ray Gricar, who has been missing for the past week.In a room packed with reporters, including Fox News host Greta Van Susteren, Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon said another Lewisburg business owner said she thinks she saw a man fitting Gricar's description between 1 and 2 p.m. Saturday. She is the third person to report possibly seeing...

none reported seeing Gricar until after police canvassing or until after it was reported the abandoned car was found