4th anniversary of the disappearance of Ray Gricar

[gstickley]

Today, 04/15/09, well actually yesterday, marks the 4th anniversary of the disappearance of Ray Gricar. And LE gave us an "anniversary present", a tidbit that's years old (kinda like getting second-hand clothing wrapped up as though it's new). And the "anniversary present" leaves a lot to be desired. Conflicting statements about when & how this earth-shattering, "stop the press", news came about leave such a bad taste. The timing of the earth-shattering, "stop the press" news release also leaves a bad taste. In other words, I agree with Pgal. that there is "something rotten in Bellefonte".

[J. J. in Phila]

New odds:

Walkaway: 48%

Murder: 42%

Suicide: 9%

Something else: 1%

While interesting, and probably just a preview regarding the laptop, the new information doesn't move the walkaway numbers.

In terms of public perception in Centre County, walkaway is much higher.

[Politigal]

IMO, the public has been mislead in Centre County

First Madeira said there was no evidence that Gricar bought software

then Rickard said there was evidence gleaned early on that he had.

And then the same "shenanigans" on the fingerprints...

Where's OOBrett??

Also, Tony's statement per the article I just posted in the links thread raises a good question:

It seems strange, a frustrated Tony Gricar said, that his uncle would use another computer to complete the searches on wiping hard drives without going to great lengths to hide his actions.

[J. J. in Phila]

IMO, the public has been mislead in Centre County

First Madeira said there was no evidence that Gricar bought software

then Rickard said there was evidence gleaned early on that he had.

And then the same "shenanigans" on the fingerprints...

Where's OOBrett??

Also, Tony's statement per the article I just posted in the links thread raises a good question:

It seems strange, a frustrated Tony Gricar said, that his uncle would use another computer to complete the searches on wiping hard drives without going to great lengths to hide his actions.

I is not strange, but it doesn't point walkaway either. He could have been interested in just destroying the data, not hiding the fact that he was destroying the data.

[Politigal]

I wanted to bring Tony Gricar's post from last night to this thread:

Originally posted by tonygricar
Correct, and to add a bit of clarity, "To me,” Tony Gricar said, “it looks like it absolutely knocks out the theory of foul play.” is printed a bit out of context. I was giving my view of how this new "revelation" can/will be perceived as it relates to the general public, not necessarily how I personally view this release. Obviously, if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

A few points:
a.) We were not advised of this release until the CDT let me know. I thought I was just receiving the standard anniversary requests, which I was, until their voicemail.
b.) When I phoned LE, I was told that this release is a positive thing and will hopefully generate new leads. Seriously.
c.) Interesting timing. Must be because of the anniversary.

From a media standpoint, here's how I've always viewed the 3 scenarios:
1.) foul play = sympathetic event
2.) suicide = sympathetic event
3.) walkaway = public scorn and outrage (see: Bride, Runaway)

[Politigal]

Changing the tone...

I lost my companion in 2005, and every year on the anniversary of his death, it brings it all back into focus again....and I miss him dearly.

Today must truly be a somber day for RG's daughter Lara, and for Tony & Chris, Barbara and maybe even Emma.

I recall Lara's early press appeal....where she said she wanted to go climb a mountain with her dad....

I too wish for that "one more day" ....

Here's to the family of Ray Gricar .....my deepest sympathies on this awful day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UWx-shGM0g

[gstickley]

I too want the entire Gricar family to know that I am thinking of you on this terrible, ugly, rainy day. No one should have to go through the trauma you have been forced to undergo for the past four years.

I am very sorry the fate of Ray Gricar has not been learned after four long years and that you have no semblance of closure, not that you ever could. My feelings are the same as those of Mr. Bob Bueher, a true friend of Mr. Gricar.

Again, I am sorry the establishment has let you down. I just want you to know that there are some of us who wish the best for you and wish things could be different. :rose:

[2-B]

I have learned two lessons in my life: first, there are no sufficient literary, psychological, or historical answers to human tragedy, only moral ones. Second, just as despair can come to one another only from other human beings, hope, too, can be given to one only by other human beings.

~Elie Wiesel

To Tony, Lara, Barbara, Chris, Andrew, and other members of the Gricar family on this fourth anniversary of Ray's disappearance, from those of us here at the CTV/In Sessions board, we offer you the only small thing we can.

Hope.

[puzzled]

I agree. My prayers continue to go out to the Gricar Family and friends. I don't think that this "new tidbit" necessarily points to walkaway. However....if Ray did walkaway...does anyone know why he would do that? He seemed to have it all. He was so close to retirement. I have no clue why he would walkaway...if he did. I still think he was murdered but am willing to atleast explore other options. The fact that he supposedly researched destroying a hard drive in water really makes me wonder. I realize also that someone else could have searched on his computer for that info. Also I would like to know how far in advance of him going missing did the computer search take place? I think someone had said that he seemed stressed out, tired, unhappy...for a period of time before he went missing. Could someone have been on his back?

[2-B]

Also I would like to know how far in advance of him going missing did the computer search take place? I think someone had said that he seemed stressed out, tired, unhappy...for a period of time before he went missing. Could someone have been on his back?

[respectfully snipped]

They haven't told us when the alleged searches took place, but I guess we can narrow the time frame down some since they supposedly took place on the home computer, which was purchased at the end of 2004/beginning of 2005. That would put the searches somewhere in the 4-5 month period before Ray disappeared.

What if Ray's inquiries about software to erase the hard drive and the searches are not related to each other?

What if those inquiries were run-of-the-mill thoughts about wiping a hard drive before turning the laptop in prior to retirement?

Two things might be possible if the searches and the inquiries aren't related:

a) as you said, someone could have been "on his back." Maybe someone wanted information on the laptop and Ray wanted to destroy that information. Maybe it wasn't work related (thus no back up copies on any system files at the court house). That explanation could make sense in light of the searches having been found on the desktop computer, since, as Logic pointed out last night, it would be really counter-intuitive for him to do the searches on the desktop rather than the laptop (the hard drive he would purportedly want to "fry").

b) on the other hand, maybe someone else who knew Ray had inquired about software to erase a hard drive (as described above, to clean it before returning it prior to retirement) found that information advantageous. Perhaps someone used that information and deliberately left a trail on the desktop that would appear as if Ray had made searches subsequent to asking about software to erase a hard drive.

I still can't get past the language choice. A forensic linguistic analysis of those choices would be very interesting to me.

[Politigal]

I also would like to apologize to Tony Gricar - for reading too much into comments attributed to him in yesterday's news reports....

Last night I was just so flabbergasted at the reports, the timing of the reports, and of course curious about the intent/motive behind the reports.

[Politigal]

[respectfully snipped]

They haven't told us when the alleged searches took place, but I guess we can narrow the time frame down some since they supposedly took place on the home computer, which was purchased at the end of 2004/beginning of 2005. That would put the searches somewhere in the 4-5 month period before Ray disappeared.

What if Ray's inquiries about software to erase the hard drive and the searches are not related to each other?

What if those inquiries were run-of-the-mill thoughts about wiping a hard drive before turning the laptop in prior to retirement?

Two things might be possible if the searches and the inquiries aren't related:

a) as you said, someone could have been "on his back." Maybe someone wanted information on the laptop and Ray wanted to destroy that information. Maybe it wasn't work related (thus no back up copies on any system files at the court house). That explanation could make sense in light of the searches having been found on the desktop computer, since, as Logic pointed out last night, it would be really counter-intuitive for him to do the searches on the desktop rather than the laptop (the hard drive he would purportedly want to "fry").

b) on the other hand, maybe someone else who knew Ray had inquired about software to erase a hard drive (as described above, to clean it before returning it prior to retirement) found that information advantageous. Perhaps someone used that information and deliberately left a trail on the desktop that would appear as if Ray had made searches subsequent to asking about software to erase a hard drive.

I still can't get past the language choice. A forensic linguistic analysis of those choices would be very interesting to me.

the language doesn't seem to fit RG IMO either...

and as Tony relayed in one report -- Why would RG nefariously search for ways to erase data but yet leave evidence of those searches behind?

[puzzled]

EXACTLY! I ran all of this by my husband and he does not think Ray went missing on his own volition.
Incidentally about a week ago I had a dream again about Ray. In my dream Ray came to me and was at my house. Then this couple showed up and they were in my house. Ray was sort of afraid of them and it was as though they could not see him. He seemed calm though. He told me that they had taken him from behind the place where they sell budweiser. In my dream they were at my house but were very private..not really telling me much...and I felt in fear of them. Then this other guy is suddenly there. I remember much more about him than the couple although they seemed to have been in cahoots with one another in respect to Ray going missing. This guy was big and built like a quarterback. He had sort of dark brown thick hair that was long and almost to his shoulders. He sort of reminded me of someone who is part Indian. He was also quiet and sort of gave me the impression of being the planner. He hard dark eyes and a large nose. He had a full mouth and I felt as though he had come to get rid of me. It was strange how Ray kept saying these are the ones...these are the people. In my dream I thought that Ray was alive because I could see him and talk to him. However they could not see him and so I think he was just there in spirit. I had not had a dream about him since I dreamt about his side door being on fire. That is really all I remember. I don't know if it will help at all but that is what I dreamt.

[J. J. in Phila]

the language doesn't seem to fit RG IMO either...

and as Tony relayed in one report -- Why would RG nefariously search for ways to erase data but yet leave evidence of those searches behind?

In terms of searching on the Internet it does. I rarely put "fortnight" into a search engine. To "fry" a drive is almost a term of art. Nothing unusual there.

Now, the second question was answered. RFG didn't care if someone found out that he destroyed data, he didn't want the date itself found. There is ample evidence he did want to destroy something; the question is what was that data?

That in itself could point to walkaway or suicide.

I said a long time ago, I didn't see any happy ending to this case.

[Serendipitous1]

MR is quoted today (http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/206/2009/april/15/missing-pa-da-had-looked-at-how-to-erase-computer.html): "I want to generate some leads." "Not to dispel the homicide theory, but to put out there that the information was found, in hopes of keeping interest in the case renewed." But according to the Daily Collegian article (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/15/police_release_computer_data.aspx), yesterday's press release was prepared by Bellefonte Police and MM (emphasis added).

The timing is obvious. MM could have released this information when he tacked the hard-drive erasing stuff onto the negative report from Kroll Ontrack last October...or any time during his tenure in office. It is just one more instance of using RG for political purposes.

We have seen it before. MM takes office, dumps KA, then publicly declares that no stone has been left unturned. Months later, after missed leads were pointed out, he rejects the family's (and BB's) request. Instead he dials up the PSP unit which, after a 6-month delay, reports...well we do not know, because that report is still cloaked in secrecy.

After the second year goes by, we hear from MM that the case has officially gone cold. DZ moves out. MR moves up. And KA is back in the news...with her googlepages. Months later we learn that MR is into reading science fiction novels.

On the third anniversary, MM notes it is "just another day in which we search for clues"...and that none of the 3 theories can be ruled out. BB blows a gasket and dumps MM on his head. TC rounds up a posse and orders a forced-march to Bellefonte. That does not work, so MM tells us the story of RG's interest in erasing hard drives.

And now this. Why now MM? The reaction has been predictable, despite MR's attempt to patch it up today. As TG is quoted in the Collegian article (linked above), "A walk-away can really turn public opinion away from someone that can still be a victim in this case." "This makes it look like a selfish act or a malicious act, when we don't know that that's the case."

[puzzled]

So JJ are you saying that you think we have an ending? I don't feel as though this case has ended. I feel as though it has never really begun in terms of true investigating. Unless they have Ray stand out on the courthouse steps and say yeah I did all of this I feel that this case is far from over. Based on the wee bit of info they give us each anniversary. I think the whole thing is very cruel. Where are the phone records?? Do you think they will ever make those public? I am sorry but I feel that they have many stones left to overturn!

[day2day]

I just cant believe it has been four years since Mr. Gricar vanished into thin air. My thoughts and prayers are with Lara and Tony and Chris and Andrew and Barbara today. I pray that one day they will have closure to this nightmare.

[J. J. in Phila]

So JJ are you saying that you think we have an ending? I don't feel as though this case has ended. I feel as though it has never really begun in terms of true investigating. Unless they have Ray stand out on the courthouse steps and say yeah I did all of this I feel that this case is far from over. Based on the wee bit of info they give us each anniversary. I think the whole thing is very cruel. Where are the phone records?? Do you think they will ever make those public? I am sorry but I feel that they have many stones left to overturn!

No, I do not think this is over. The answer to the question, "How did Ray Gricar get out of Lewisburg," may provide one. The answer may be, "He didn't."

The phone records help the public, but not the investigation (and I'd love to see them).

[J. J. in Phila]

MR is quoted today (http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/206/2009/april/15/missing-pa-da-had-looked-at-how-to-erase-computer.html): "I want to generate some leads." "Not to dispel the homicide theory, but to put out there that the information was found, in hopes of keeping interest in the case renewed." But according to the Daily Collegian article (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/15/police_release_computer_data.aspx), yesterday's press release was prepared by Bellefonte Police and MM (emphasis added).

The timing is obvious. MM could have released this information when he tacked the hard-drive erasing stuff onto the negative report from Kroll Ontrack last October...or any time during his tenure in office. It is just one more instance of using RG for political purposes.

We have seen it before. MM takes office, dumps KA, then publicly declares that no stone has been left unturned. Months later, after missed leads were pointed out, he rejects the family's (and BB's) request. Instead he dials up the PSP unit which, after a 6-month delay, reports...well we do not know, because that report is still cloaked in secrecy.

After the second year goes by, we hear from MM that the case has officially gone cold. DZ moves out. MR moves up. And KA is back in the news...with her googlepages. Months later we learn that MR is into reading science fiction novels.

On the third anniversary, MM notes it is "just another day in which we search for clues"...and that none of the 3 theories can be ruled out. BB blows a gasket and dumps MM on his head. TC rounds up a posse and orders a forced-march to Bellefonte. That does not work, so MM tells us the story of RG's interest in erasing hard drives.

And now this. Why now MM? The reaction has been predictable, despite MR's attempt to patch it up today. As TG is quoted in the Collegian article (linked above), "A walk-away can really turn public opinion away from someone that can still be a victim in this case." "This makes it look like a selfish act or a malicious act, when we don't know that that's the case."

Two points:

1. It's working like a charm.

2. As Willoughby pointed out elsewhere, be careful what you wish for, in regard to lifting the veil of secrecy.

[Politigal]

we can now post threads again instead of just the dailies...per Coldwater

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=351974

[2-B]

MR is quoted today (http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/206/2009/april/15/missing-pa-da-had-looked-at-how-to-erase-computer.html): "I want to generate some leads." "Not to dispel the homicide theory, but to put out there that the information was found, in hopes of keeping interest in the case renewed." But according to the Daily Collegian article (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/15/police_release_computer_data.aspx), yesterday's press release was prepared by Bellefonte Police and MM (emphasis added).

The timing is obvious. MM could have released this information when he tacked the hard-drive erasing stuff onto the negative report from Kroll Ontrack last October...or any time during his tenure in office. It is just one more instance of using RG for political purposes.

We have seen it before. MM takes office, dumps KA, then publicly declares that no stone has been left unturned. Months later, after missed leads were pointed out, he rejects the family's (and BB's) request. Instead he dials up the PSP unit which, after a 6-month delay, reports...well we do not know, because that report is still cloaked in secrecy.

After the second year goes by, we hear from MM that the case has officially gone cold. DZ moves out. MR moves up. And KA is back in the news...with her googlepages. Months later we learn that MR is into reading science fiction novels.

On the third anniversary, MM notes it is "just another day in which we search for clues"...and that none of the 3 theories can be ruled out. BB blows a gasket and dumps MM on his head. TC rounds up a posse and orders a forced-march to Bellefonte. That does not work, so MM tells us the story of RG's interest in erasing hard drives.

And now this. Why now MM? The reaction has been predictable, despite MR's attempt to patch it up today. As TG is quoted in the Collegian article (linked above), "A walk-away can really turn public opinion away from someone that can still be a victim in this case." "This makes it look like a selfish act or a malicious act, when we don't know that that's the case."

Post of the Day, perhaps of the week, perhaps of the month, S1. It sums up so much so succinctly and so well.

Why now MM? is the precise question that echoed in my brain as I tried to get to sleep last night.

The answer seems abundantly obvious to those of us who have followed this case closely. What's sad is that the general public, with a less intense eye turned on the details, will see the release of this information exactly as TG has projected in the Collegian article. One need only scan the CDT comments sections to see how that is already playing out.

[Amused]

The article concluded with a phone number to reach the author, Sara Ganim. 814-231-4616.

Just in case anyone here was interested.

It's amazing to me how few of my fellow citizens of Centre County even remember the Ray Gricar case. Very few by name.

My thoughts are with those who miss him still....

[J. J. in Phila]

Two real possibilities:

1. They had the evidence and were suppressing it. LE in this case has done that.

2. It's new evidence. The statement that there wasn't anything is months old. New things have surfaced.

[2-B]

Two real possibilities:

1. They had the evidence and were suppressing it. LE in this case has done that.

2. It's new evidence. The statement that there wasn't anything is months old. New things have surfaced.

Neither of these fit the explanation Pgal received from SG, however.

[2-B]

To "fry" a drive is almost a term of art. Nothing unusual there.


From your perspective there may be nothing unusual about that terminology. But you are nearly twenty years younger than Gricar and much more comfortable with computers than he was.

Remember that Ray did not even know how to open a jpg without instructions from TG. I would be willing to lay money down that the phrase "fry a hard drive" was not in Ray's vocabulary.

[Serendipitous1]

Post of the Day, perhaps of the week, perhaps of the month, S1. It sums up so much so succinctly and so well.

Why now MM? is the precise question that echoed in my brain as I tried to get to sleep last night.

The answer seems abundantly obvious to those of us who have followed this case closely. What's sad is that the general public, with a less intense eye turned on the details, will see the release of this information exactly as TG has projected in the Collegian article. One need only scan the CDT comments sections to see how that is already playing out.Thanks for adding about the CDT reader comments (I tend to ignore the sublime ignorance that is usually spewed there).

And I wish the AP had picked up on the Collegian article rather than the CDT's. It comported much better with the sentiments in tG's post here from early this morning.

[day2day]

From your perspective there may be nothing unusual about that terminology. But you are nearly twenty years younger than Gricar and much more comfortable with computers than he was.

Remember that Ray did not even know how to open a jpg without instructions from TG. I would be willing to lay money down that the phrase "fry a hard drive" was not in Ray's vocabulary.


It is really hard for me to believe that Mr. Gricar would use the term "fry a hard drive"!! Of course we all know there was someone else that had access to that computer...**sighs...

[J. J. in Phila]

From your perspective there may be nothing unusual about that terminology. But you are nearly twenty years younger than Gricar and much more comfortable with computers than he was.

Remember that Ray did not even know how to open a jpg without instructions from TG. I would be willing to lay money down that the phrase "fry a hard drive" was not in Ray's vocabulary.

It doesn't have to be, because it is in a search engine's parameters. If you doing a search you need to go with commonly used terms.

As for "why now" my major question is if the case could have advanced, or solved, last year.

[gstickley]

"Suppression of evidence" seems to be a big thing with MM &/or the local LE. With the impending election, don't you wonder what other "suppressed evidence" is likely to hit the press?

[2-B]

It doesn't have to be, because it is in a search engine's parameters. If you doing a search you need to go with commonly used terms.

As for "why now" my major question is if the case could have advanced, or solved, last year.

One needs to frame the search terms used, and that means not only being familiar with them, but THINKING in those terms.

The two phrases reportedly found in the alleged searches were how to "wreck a hard drive" and "fry a hard drive." That would indicate phrases typed into the search by the person who typed them in, and that person would need to THINK in those terms to begin with.

Are those the phrases a nearly 60-year-old, non-computer-comfortable attorney type THINKS in? Highly unlikely. In general, much more likely: something along the lines of "how to DESTROY a hard drive."

As for the "why now," the question is really a political one, not an investigatory one. That's abundantly obvious.

[J. J. in Phila]

It is really hard for me to believe that Mr. Gricar would use the term "fry a hard drive"!! Of course we all know there was someone else that had access to that computer...**sighs...

First, whether or not he'd use the term conversationally, it is probably the better term to search under.

Second, MR was rather specific that it wasn't just on the computer but RFG did the search.

[2-B]

Second, MR was rather specific that it wasn't just on the computer but RFG did the search.

And so here we are back at this claim and the attendant question: how was it proven to be Gricar himself who did the search??

If there is actual proof, what is that proof?

Or is this just the same kind of conclusion being drawn that we apparently have (according to SG) with regard to the purchase of the software?

IIRC, and it's obviously been many years, when LE found the Rock Creek Park searches on Chandra Levy's computer after her disappearance, they said there was no way of determining for certain that Chandra herself had done the searching.

[2-B]

Re my post above about CL's computer:

Washington Police Chief Charles Ramsey announced on May 22, 2002, that remains that match the dental records of Chandra Levy were found by a man who was walking his dog and looking for turtles in the Rock Creek Park near Levy's apartment in northwest Washington, DC. Police had previouly searched well over half the area of the 2000+ acre park, which was visited by Levy on many occasions, after determining that someone had used Levy's laptop computer to search for the park's Klingle Mansion on the day police think she vanished.

http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Chandra_Levy/



This is as I remember the discussion of computer searches in the CL case--that it [B]appeared to have been Chandra who did the searches, not that it had ever been determined it was she who did the searches. And Chandra lived alone and did not share her computer with anyone else in the home.

[gstickley]

Everyone needs to read S1's latest "sticky" link, "SW defends the way his dept. has handled the inv."

Pay particular attention to this sentence: Weaver told WTAJ News investigators found an opened box that at one time contained hard drive erasing software. It is his belief Gricar used that software on his county issued laptop. The Chief said the department gets about one tip a month about the cold case. That is why they released this latest tidbit of information.

Ask yourself exactly when this 'opened box" was found. According to DZ, the house was not searched; according to an earlier statement about the box, 'PF thought she remembered seeing a box' which has now morphed into 'a box found'.

**Is there or isn't there a receipt for "the box"?
**What is the proof that "the box" belonged to or was purchased by RG?
**If LE didn't recover "the box" at the time the laptop was supposedly discovered missing, when did they find it?
**Upon learning the laptop was missing, & wanting to cover tracks, who else might have done "the searches" on the home computer?
**Who else might have had "the box" to be found?

[J. J. in Phila]

One needs to frame the search terms used, and that means not only being familiar with them, but THINKING in those terms.

The two phrases reportedly found in the alleged searches were how to "wreck a hard drive" and "fry a hard drive." That would indicate phrases typed into the search by the person who typed them in, and that person would need to THINK in those terms to begin with.

Are those the phrases a nearly 60-year-old, non-computer-comfortable attorney type THINKS in? Highly unlikely. In general, much more likely: something along the lines of "how to DESTROY a hard drive."


And when he does, he sees reference to "frying" the drive. You're kind of assuming that was the first search. I wouldn't be.


As for the "why now," the question is really a political one, not an investigatory one. That's abundantly obvious.

Now, on that point, I agree with you. I don't think it will be last revelation of the season either. That's both good and bad.

It's very bad news for JKA, and lesser bad news for TdB and SPM. We get more information but it will likely serve a political purpose.

[Politigal]

The contradictions about the software seemed to have sprouted legs....they just keeps growing.

First, Patty Fornicola recalls seeing a software box but it isn't found.

Second, Madeira said there was no receipt or evidence that Gricar ever purchased any hard drive erasing software.

Rickard then says Gricar did indeed purchase the software.

and now (from S1's newest linked article) Weaver said they found the software box.


Da*mn...and CDT journalist Sara Ganim says *we* need to look at the big picture.

Well folks - the picture ain't purty. Bellefonte apparently can't get their **** straight.

From the looks of it.....I think they're working overtime to try and sweep Gricar under the rug before the election of a new DA.

[Politigal]

another one from memory lane:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/10/02/missing_das_hard_drive_reveals.aspx?print=1

In response to what Madeira called "rumors" that Gricar was interested in clearing his hard drive before retiring, Madeira said there is no evidence Gricar tried to wipe the hard drive clean. Madeira said Gricar's girlfriend at the time, Patty Fornicola, remembered seeing "what she thought was a box for that type of program" at the house, but no wipe-drive program was ever recovered.

[2-B]

another one from memory lane:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/10/02/missing_das_hard_drive_reveals.aspx?print=1

In response to what Madeira called "rumors" that Gricar was interested in clearing his hard drive before retiring, Madeira said there is no evidence Gricar tried to wipe the hard drive clean. Madeira said Gricar's girlfriend at the time, Patty Fornicola, remembered seeing "what she thought was a box for that type of program" at the house, but no wipe-drive program was ever recovered.

So in this version, PF didn't even recall seeing a box for the software. She recalled seeing what she thought was a box for that type of program.

This seems to be PF's initial report, correct?

I would like to know, then, whether LE ever actually found such a box in the home (and if so, when). whether a receipt for such software was found, or whether this comes down to the whole issue of memory again, as it has with witness sightings. Is memory being shaped over time through repeated questioning?

Don't know. But I'd like to know.

[2-B]

Now, on that point, I agree with you. I don't think it will be last revelation of the season either. That's both good and bad.

It's very bad news for JKA, and lesser bad news for TdB and SPM. We get more information but it will likely serve a political purpose.

From the link S1 provided:

Buehner also questioned why the information was released now, saying that Centre County District Attorney Mike Madera [sic] is up for re-election in a hotly contested race, so he thinks politics plays a role in this announcement.

http://www.wqkx.com/1070_WKOK/WKOK_local_news.htm

[Politigal]

I found this post by S1 from 10/3/08 at 6pm in the Laptop thread

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Ah, why do you have the idea it was recent? Come to think of it, why have people (including PB) ascribed a nuance which, so far, I have not seen published?

The CDT reported, "A box for such software was seen at Gricar's home sometime after January 2004..." But The Daily Collegian included the quote..."Madeira said Gricar's girlfriend at the time, Patty Fornicola, remembered seeing 'what she thought was a box for that type of program' at the house..."

In the CDT, MM is quoted as saying, "There was some discussion of having seen Mr. Gricar expressing an interest in getting software to erase the hard drive of the computer." And SW added, "He talked about, or expressed an interest in, cleaning up his county laptop prior to retirement so he could return it without any personal information on it."

None of which do I find surprising, especially given the fact that he had announced his retirement in early January 2004, and had apparently shelved the laptop...as in, stopped using it. None of which do I believe necessarily points to a planned walkaway...in fact, just the opposite. The bigger question to me is, if he did erase the hard drive and did not use the laptop afterward, why would he (if he did) take the laptop on a ride to Lewisburg?

[Politigal]

From the link S1 provided:

Buehner also questioned why the information was released now, saying that Centre County District Attorney Mike Madera [sic] is up for re-election in a hotly contested race, so he thinks politics plays a role in this announcement.

http://www.wqkx.com/1070_WKOK/WKOK_local_news.htm

I think it's definitely some political shenanigans...and the question is why are they touting this computer stuff at this time? And exactly what type of leads do they hope to glean with this type press release?

[CeeKay]

So....if RG searched for different ways to "fry or wreck" a hard drive and how to remove the hard drive, why would he choose to remove the hard drive and dispose of it and the computer separately? Weren't some of the very earliest reports by LE that he did not use the laptop very much?

It would have been so much easier to just discard the hard drive and leave the laptop in the closet. How long would it have taken the investigation to realize that the hard drive was missing...4 years, 5 years, etc.?

4 years to release this latest "new" information does not sit right. How long is it since the PSP review of the case? How much more "new" information is sitting on the back burner waiting for the "AHA" moment?

My thoughts and prayers are for the Gricar family and I hope they will find peace and solace soon.

[Politigal]

"Suppression of evidence" seems to be a big thing with MM &/or the local LE. With the impending election, don't you wonder what other "suppressed evidence" is likely to hit the press?

Are they suppressing evidence or creating it???

[J. J. in Phila]

Neither of these fit the explanation Pgal received from SG, however.

They key word may be "buying."

[J. J. in Phila]

He switched to the desktop around 1/1/05, so the laptop was used before that.

[2-B]

They key word may be "buying."

Are you suggesting you have information that someone lent Gricar the software, or what?

[2-B]

And when he does, he sees reference to "frying" the drive. You're kind of assuming that was the first search. I wouldn't be.


Just out of curiosity, I typed "how to destroy a hard drive" into google.

It spat out 3,000,000 entries. I skimmed over the first four or five pages, and the word "destroy" showed up in every entry summary, but nothing about "fry" or "wreck."

At the bottom of the page, there were related search terms. I'm not sure these used to appear back in 2005, but for what it's worth, they're here now. Related searches:


destroy data hard
drive destroy old hard drive
physically destroy hard drive
destroy your hard drive
can virus destroy hard drive


I did bump into a number of interesting things while I was cruising around the web during this adventure.

First, there are all sorts of compliance laws regarding hard drive destruction (including HIPAA compliance laws among others, so yes, medical records do require that kind of strict protocol). These compliance laws have led to the creation of shredder companies springing up so that people can be sure they're following the law with regard to hard drive/record destruction.

Second, I found an interesting notation on one techie site from someone who'd read a British computing journal. That journal recounted that over 22,000 files had been recovered from only eight computers sold on eBay, computers whose hard drives had supposedly been wiped clean before being sold. The gist of the article was a warning that thieves were actively buying used computers to recover files with financial and other useful information on them and urged people to physically destroy hard drives before getting rid of their computers.

So a couple of "bottom lines" here for me:

a) I still have great doubt about Gricar typing in the search terms "wreck a hard drive" or "fry a hard drive," AND I doubt he'd find either of those terms typing in something more typical of a late middle aged, non-computer type attorney. The only thing I might be able to see is him finding finding a link with those words in it and clicking on that link.

b) I still think there are quite plausible reasons Gricar may have wanted to be sure the hard drive was "washed" clean before returning it prior to retirement. And I am not convinced whatever questions he may have posed about that subject are necessarily related to whatever searches were discovered. Without more specifics, I remain unconvinced we know that Gricar himself did those searches, and the language issues alone make me very suspicious that he did not.

My opinion to which I am entitled, of course.

[2-B]

When I get curious about something, I tend to get really curious about it. Anyone uninterested in the finer details of search terms and hard drive erasure, skip on by this post, please. :smile:

I ran a number of different search trials on google.

Turns out that "how to destroy a hard drive," described above, returned the greatest number of hits, with 3,000,000 entries.

Next, I tried what seemed most logical to me as a possible term Gricar might have used: "how to erase a hard drive."

That produced 1,710,000 entries with the following related searches listed:


erase hard disk drive
erase reformat hard drive
erase floppy disk
erase hard drive windows xp
erase hard drive dos
dod erase hard drive
delete a hard drive
erase vista hard drive


Next I typed in "how to wipe a hard drive," since the term "wipe" had appeared in some of the entries for erasing a hard drive. "wipe" produced the next greatest number of entries, 1,450,000, and the following related searches:


wipe floppy disk
wipe disk boot
bootable cd wipe hard drive
hard drive disk wipe
bootable wipe disk
wipe deleted files
wipe usb hard drive
dod wipe hard drive


On the searches so far, everything on the first five pages of each search looked to be the usual techie stuff--directions/advice from geek to geek or geek to novice regarding ways to get physically destroy a drive and/or to destroy data on a drive.

Next, I tried what we saw in the news reports this week.

"How to wreck a hard drive":

This one produced only 422,000 entries and no related search terms.

Last, I used "how to fry a hard drive." This produced only 537,000 entries with no related search terms, and on the first page, they went like this:

*Does anybody know how to fry a harddrive so that even the best of the geeks can't get anything off of it?? The computer in question isn't even starting up ...



Does anybody know how to fry a harddrive so that even the best of the geeks can't get anything off of it?? The computer in question isn't even starting up ...

1) oil up the pan 2) add some salt and pepper 3) fry hard drive. ...

Help! Did I fry the hard drive? General Computing.

[3 entries unrelated to data destruction on a hard drive]

I have had a strange thing happen. I was trying to partition a hard drive that our family had been using, and that was working extremely ...

I spilled some beer on my laptop and it immediatel…


IOW, not techie talk at all, except perhaps the first one. Mostly people who had done inadvertent damage to their hard drives, or people making jokes.

What does this little foray into research mean to me? Someone looking for guidance on how to physically destroy his/her hard drive or destroy data on a hard drive isn't likely to use the terms "wreck" or "fry." And they're not likely to find those terms while searching for tech type advice on how to accomplish those things, either. Whoever typed those terms in to a search engine had to be thinking in those terms in the first place. That's my conclusion, for whatever it's worth.

[Politigal]

another contradictory article...and one that MM probably hoped wouldn't surface:

http://tinyurl.com/cbymsb

Madeira also revealed that Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, had told police in the days after she reported him missing that the prosecutor had discussed buying a program that would clean the county-issue hard drive of his private information.

Gricar was retiring at the end of 2005 and spoke to Fornicola of returning a clean computer back to the county, Madeira said.

"She remembers Ray looking at it in a store. She believes she saw it at the house, but it wasn't there when police began looking for Ray," Madeira said. "There was no evidence of where it went, whether or not it was ever used."

[2-B]

another contradictory article...and one that MM probably hoped wouldn't surface:

http://tinyurl.com/cbymsb

Madeira also revealed that Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, had told police in the days after she reported him missing that the prosecutor had discussed buying a program that would clean the county-issue hard drive of his private information.

Gricar was retiring at the end of 2005 and spoke to Fornicola of returning a clean computer back to the county, Madeira said.

"She remembers Ray looking at it in a store. She believes she saw it at the house, but it wasn't there when police began looking for Ray," Madeira said. "There was no evidence of where it went, whether or not it was ever used."

Thanks for finding this, Pgal.

If Gricar spoke to PF about returning a clean computer to the county, that makes knowing what basis has been used to claim that Gricar himself did the searches about destroying a hard drive all that much more important . . . because right now there seems to be an effort to link the software and the searches in the minds of the public.

It ain't necessarily so, IMHO.

[Politigal]

Thanks for finding this, Pgal.

If Gricar spoke to PF about returning a clean computer to the county, that makes knowing what basis has been used to claim that Gricar himself did the searches about destroying a hard drive all that much more important . . . because right now there seems to be an effort to link the software and the searches in the minds of the public.

It ain't necessarily so, IMHO.


I know...you have to put everything into the proper context.

Gricar reportedly inquired in late 2003/early 2004 about erasing his LAPTOP hard drive in preparation for his retirement.

Then, the home DESKTOP computer was purchased approx January 2005. The searches referred to in this week's news were on that home computer.

So, we're talking about two completely different time frames here.

And I know this will ire some....but Patty Fornicola *still* cannot be ruled out in this case IMO.

It was Patty's home...Patty's upstairs closet where the laptop was kept. Patty admitted to using the laptop for searches. It was Patty's home where the new desktop computer was located and Patty admitted to using it too.

And when Gricar first disappeared - it was reported that clerical staff provided police with the password to his work computer. Patty worked as "clerical" staff. Patty was also his "soulmate" - his partner - his roommate - his travel companion.....etc.

Patty knew his password/s IMO. It only makes sense that she would. Patty could easily have done the searches on frying the drive....easily. IMO.

[Politigal]

I also did some googling last night using the reported keywords but not as in depth...

But what I found was only a couple of posts on some computer blogs with a couple of *young* people inquiring about how to fry a work computer so a boss wouldn't catch them for what they had on it or another person just wanting to wreck a rival's computer.

[Cloudbuster]

It's possible that RG took the laptop with him on 4-15-2005. I agree with BB that it leads more toward foul play.
Why would RG take the laptop with him that day?
Why was he acting differently 2 weeks before disapearing?
What was he working on so hard before he disappeared?

One cases comes to mind.
1.) Shaken baby case

What happened to the evidence that RG was planning to use on that case? It all seemed to fly away when LM took the case. The whole direction turned from north to south. Hmm I just wonder if RG and the laptop was the only remaining evidence left? By disappearing RG and his laptop data, don't ya think it sends a clear picture to the DA's office?

Then there is also the fact that RG's office started the biggest drug bust. Even TL wasn't gonna roll over on a kingpin. He said so. Did someone want the orginal information on the case from RG's laptop?

[Cloudbuster]

I wouldn't be too concerned about Ray doing searches on erasing his drive, it's something that a meticulus person would do before retiring. I don't believe that planning to erase it 16 months prior holds any revelation because Ray strikes me as a person who doesn't wait till the last minute to do something.

What I would be worried about is why the need for the laptop? Who was pushing him to resurect it in the first place and why? Was he using it for the drug bust information or the shaken baby case? Was some kind of deal going on with it's contents? Another question here is the possibility that did someone pay RG to go in return for the evidence on the laptop? Would they trust him enough as a loose end? Or did they trick him in some way? Those are my concerns.

[2-B]

I also did some googling last night using the reported keywords but not as in depth...

But what I found was only a couple of posts on some computer blogs with a couple of *young* people inquiring about how to fry a work computer so a boss wouldn't catch them for what they had on it or another person just wanting to wreck a rival's computer.

I think young is a key word in your post. I said before that "fry" and "wreck" sounded to me like teen/early twenties language.

Did RG and PF ever have young relatives visiting the house? Or friends with teenage kids visiting? Did any of them ever use the desktop computer?

[J. J. in Phila]

First, can we limit this ti one active thread, as Coldwater requested.

Second, as soon as you start seeing the word "fry" in the text of a web page, you search for those terms. It's much like "crash." I've never had a hard drive "crash" into anything, but I've hard drives "crash." If I wand information on it, I might start searching for "'hard drive' malfunction"" but I'm rapidly going to find "crash," when I look. Why? It's a jargon term, and folks that deal with it use that jargon.

Third, you all seem to be forgetting that RFG asked other people about erasing the drive; at least one wasn't from the DA's office. It looks like he might have asked before he moved in with PEF and it was clearly well before he disappeared. Now, I don't find it too unusual that RFG would also Google (generically using term) how to do it. The only thing I find unusual is that submersion was one of things he looked at.

Really since that was released, the changes were nearly as good that RFG tossed the drive. The odds, looking at the situation, were always very good that it was RFG who tossed it.

Tossing it does not preclude murder, however. Did any of you, to make a bad pun, think that maybe he was planning to kill two birds with one stone? He'd get to Lewisburg early, toss the drive, well away from home, and then meet someone?

[gstickley]

(snip)
Did any of you, to make a bad pun, think that maybe he was planning to kill two birds with one stone? He'd get to Lewisburg early, toss the drive, well away from home, and then meet someone?

I, for one, never thought that at all. I never thought he went to Lewisburg in the first place; I never thought he tossed the laptop/hard drive any place. And, most of all, I certainly never thought he planned anything, especially the famous "YITMAMPWT". (For those of you who may have forgotten the famous "YITMAMPWT", it stands for "Years In The Making And Meticulously Planned Walkaway Theory".)

[Politigal]

2004 - inquiring about erasing data on his LAPTOP in prep for retirement

2005 - searches done on how to fry a hard drive on the HOME COMPUTER

When we were all posting about the laptop, and how the case was kept in Patty's upstairs closet...and who might have had access to her upstairs closet other than her or Gricar, JJ suggested it might be someone who visited the home or a porn buddy.

I wonder why JJ hasn't suggested that a visitor or porn buddy did the "fry the hard drive" searches on the home computer???

stranger than fiction :glare:

Authorities have no way of knowing who was actually doing those searches....none

[2-B]

Pgal wrote Coldwater and got permission to go back to our old style of multiple, topic-labeled threads, so there's no longer any need to limit to a single thread. (This was posted yesterday.) Thank heavens! And thank you, Coldwater!

Aside from missing that notation, JJ, I think you also missed a lot in what I posted about researching the search terms. "Fry" is not a jargon term for the voluntary or deliberate act of erasing or destroying data. It is, as I suspected when you first offered it up as a "term of art," a term used when an accidental event ruins a hard drive.

Nuance is everything. The likelihood that anyone would have run across the terminology "fry a hard drive" in relation to a search for information ways to deliberately or voluntarily get rid of data on a hard drive is extremely low. In my searches, which were fairly extensive, I found ZERO references to the term being used that way, and Pgal found only a few references by young people using it as a deliberate act of sabotage.

[2-B]

I, for one, never thought that at all. I never thought he went to Lewisburg in the first place; I never thought he tossed the laptop/hard drive any place. And, most of all, I certainly never thought he planned anything, especially the famous "YITMAMPWT".


What GS said. :thumbup:

[2-B]

Authorities have no way of knowing who was actually doing those searches....none

I keep coming back to that question: what is the basis for the proof that RG did the searches?

Short of time-stamped videotape of RG doing the searches, how WOULD anyone prove that it was RG himself who did them?

I haven't heard a convincing explanation to that question yet.

[Politigal]

I keep coming back to that question: what is the basis for the proof that RG did the searches?

Short of time-stamped videotape of RG doing the searches, how WOULD anyone prove that it was RG himself who did them?

I haven't heard a convincing explanation to that question yet.

I don't think a solid one exists...they can only *assume.*

[J. J. in Phila]

2004 - inquiring about erasing data on his LAPTOP in prep for retirement

2005 - searches done on how to fry a hard drive on the HOME COMPUTER

When we were all posting about the laptop, and how the case was kept in Patty's upstairs closet...and who might have had access to her upstairs closet other than her or Gricar, JJ suggested it might be someone who visited the home or a porn buddy.

I wonder why JJ hasn't suggested that a visitor or porn buddy did the "fry the hard drive" searches on the home computer???

stranger than fiction :glare:

Authorities have no way of knowing who was actually doing those searches....none


No. I said it was a possibility, and frankly, it could still be (though I have another real reason to doubt it).

Yes, if it was done on a password protected account and possibly done during one of those "napping" sessions. I posted a blog, coincidentally om Monday, about how easy it was to detect things in the age of electronic records. It is fairly easy to determine whereabouts.

As Willoughby said a few days ago, "Be careful what you wish for. You might get it."

I dis find several references to "fry" on Google searches relating to hard drives and data. RFG either used the word (his friends were a lot younger than he was) or spotted it while doing a related search and Googled it.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed by claims to know the vocabulary used by someone none you claim to have had long term personal exposure to.

[2-B]

In all of my searching yesterday with the terms "destroy," "erase," "wipe," "wreck," and "fry" with regard to hard drives, this is the only instance I came across any use of the phrase "fry a hard drive" where it was being used to indicate a deliberate, voluntary act of destroying data:

http://grownupgeek.com/destroy-hardrive

This may have been the same instance that Pgal found. It sounds like the same situation she described.

In every other instance I found--and I did a significant amount of searching--the phrase "fry a hard drive" or "fried hard drive" or any variation thereof referred to a hard drive which had been ruined through some kind of accidental problem.

Gricar didn't hang out with the millennial generation worried about a boss finding hotmail chat logs on a work computer as in the link above.

He was a paper and pencil guy who played Scrabble and watched Laurel and Hardy films and baseball games for entertainment. If he searched for ways to destroy data on his laptop hard drive--and yes, that is still an IF in my mind--the odds are certainly that he would have been with the 3,000,000 hits for "destroy," the 1,710,000 hits for "erase," or the 1,450,000 hits for "wipe," not the 537,000 hits for "fry," which overwhelmingly describe accidental damage to hard drives and desperate cries for help in retrieving data from those damaged drives.

[2-B]

How "fry" is typically used:

Question 2: Was hooking up the case fan the cause of the hard drive failure or was it just a coincidence? (need the case fan but don't want to fry a new drive) Any thoughts?

http://www.daniweb.com/forums/thread17796.html#

[J. J. in Phila]

I found a reference to a "fried" drive and data recovery from it, posted 12/23/04, withing a fortnight of when he purchased the computer. The link is in the comments section of the laptop

Sorry, but when you consider that the term does come up in regard to data destruction/recovery and that two of RFG's closer friends were my age or younger, it's a common term that he could have used. Back that up with several sources stating he was interested in erasing the laptop, and that LE says they can link it to him specifically (my guess is a separate e-mail account and search records), this was RFG's searches.

That doesn't preclude murder, though it sinks my old "murder scenario."

One think that I'm looking at now is, RFG went to Lewisburg to meet someone, but decided to kill to birds with one stone, and destroy the hard drive while there. I've been looking for a reason for RFG to take the laptop; that could be it. It's a heck of a co-incidence, but it is possible.

[J. J. in Phila]

That sould be comments section of my blog about the erasing the laptop. :)

[gstickley]

Do you realize it is after 4:00 PM on the day after the 4th anniversary of the disappearance of RG? And thus far today, I've been unable to find any new information released by LE. Maybe they don't feel the need to "help spark more interest in the case, perhaps spark more leads" . . . Or . . . maybe they have more leads to follow after the momentous press releases yesterday & the day before . . . Or . . . maybe they'll just wait until the 5th anniversary. Nah . . . the election for District Attorney of Centre Co. will come before that . . . And I bet there will be all kinds of "new information", "old information", news conferences, press releases, pats on the back, 'no rock left unturned','we done a good job Brownie'.

[J. J. in Phila]

It's possible that RG took the laptop with him on 4-15-2005. I agree with BB that it leads more toward foul play.
Why would RG take the laptop with him that day?
Why was he acting differently 2 weeks before disapearing?
What was he working on so hard before he disappeared?

One cases comes to mind.
1.) Shaken baby case

What happened to the evidence that RG was planning to use on that case? It all seemed to fly away when LM took the case. The whole direction turned from north to south. Hmm I just wonder if RG and the laptop was the only remaining evidence left? By disappearing RG and his laptop data, don't ya think it sends a clear picture to the DA's office?

Then there is also the fact that RG's office started the biggest drug bust. Even TL wasn't gonna roll over on a kingpin. He said so. Did someone want the orginal information on the case from RG's laptop?

The drug bust wasn't being handled by the Centre County DA's office.

You'll see a lot the prosecution evidence cited in this article, two years after RFG disappeared.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/10847837.html

And, there has been no indication that the laptop was involved in either. There is an indication that RFG was interested in destroying the contents of the laptop, though that might not be related directly to his disappearance.

[Politigal]

Pgal wrote Coldwater and got permission to go back to our old style of multiple, topic-labeled threads, so there's no longer any need to limit to a single thread. (This was posted yesterday.) Thank heavens! And thank you, Coldwater!

Aside from missing that notation, JJ, I think you also missed a lot in what I posted about researching the search terms. "Fry" is not a jargon term for the voluntary or deliberate act of erasing or destroying data. It is, as I suspected when you first offered it up as a "term of art," a term used when an accidental event ruins a hard drive.

Nuance is everything. The likelihood that anyone would have run across the terminology "fry a hard drive" in relation to a search for information ways to deliberately or voluntarily get rid of data on a hard drive is extremely low. In my searches, which were fairly extensive, I found ZERO references to the term being used that way, and Pgal found only a few references by young people using it as a deliberate act of sabotage.

In reading some other forums, I notice that other posters agree with what you've said about the language...

It just doesn't "fit" Gricar.

They said it's more of a term for someone who is pretty computer literate.

And Gricar was reportedly not a technophile.

[Chump#7]

In reading some other forums, I notice that other posters agree with what you've said about the language...

It just doesn't "fit" Gricar.

They said it's more of a term for someone who is pretty computer literate.

And Gricar was reportedly not a technophile.

Ha. Look what I've started.

I'm one of those people, so I've been told, with the gift of being able to imitate/do impressions of just about anyone that I'm around long enough. I really pick up on people's verbal nuances. Various accents and linguistics, especially in PA, have always fascinated me. I could spend hours, and have, with linguistic dictionaries.

So when read the search terms in the CDT, it really just struck me as Central/Western Pennsylvanian. Mildly slack-jawed. Not necessarily young, as in 'teenager'. I can picture my parents friends speaking like that. 60 year old, educated, from Cleveland? Not so much.

Just my observation.

[2-B]

I found a reference to a "fried" drive and data recovery from it, posted 12/23/04, withing a fortnight of when he purchased the computer. The link is in the comments section of the laptop

Sorry, but when you consider that the term does come up in regard to data destruction/recovery and that two of RFG's closer friends were my age or younger, it's a common term that he could have used. Back that up with several sources stating he was interested in erasing the laptop, and that LE says they can link it to him specifically (my guess is a separate e-mail account and search records), this was RFG's searches.



Let's strive for a little accuracy with regard to source materials.

I saw your links earlier this morning.

At the first one, the question was "What is the best way to destroy a used hard drive?" ("Destroy" is the word choice I found to be most commonly used in searches, btw.)

The word "fry" appears only once on that page, in one of many of the silly, joke answers the questioner received:

Pee on it. Also, you a [sic] Burn it, Fry it and Bake it.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006033114964

NO ONE in his right mind would look at that and say, "I think I'll search 'how to fry a hard drive'" based on that response. :rolleyes:

Your second link (after I fixed the error in it) makes the point I've already made. "Fried hard drive" is not a "term of art" used to refer to the deliberate destruction of data. It's a term applied to the accidental destruction of data, usually coupled with a cry for help for data recovery.

The corrected link, btw, is this:

http://www.techimo.com/forum/technical-support/130582-retreiving-data-fried-hard-drive.html

I don't think there's any point in trying to convince people "how to fry a hard drive" would have been on the tip of Gricar's tongue. It's clearly not on the tip of most people's tongues as phrasing used for the deliberate destruction of data. It has a different connotation.

Linguistic analysis could play a very interesting role in this case if anyone were interested enough to follow through on it.

Let's assume the the claim that Gricar made the searches is what it appears to be--a conclusion drawn rather than something there is absolute proof to back up. Minus absolute proof that Gricar made those searches, it could be very telling to find out WHO may have used the phrasing "fry a hard drive" with regard to the deliberate destruction of data on a hard drive rather than with regard to accidental damage done to a hard drive.

[J. J. in Phila]

It wouldn't have to be on the tip of his tongue. He could:

A. See it while searching.

B. Picked up a jargon term from anyone younger, like TG, CG, SS, EW, PEF and used it.

Sorry, but it is a fairly common term, even for someone 59 years old. "Fried" is not unknown hypertechnical term, when talking about anything electronic.

This was the same guy who knew who J Lo' was. :)

[2-B]

Ha. Look what I've started.



I'm really glad you got the conversation started here about this aspect, Chump.

Because we don't seem to have our topic-oriented threads newly organized yet, I want to bring over what I said on another thread so you don't miss it.

Minus absolute proof that Gricar made the searches himself (and I still wonder what absolute proof would be), it would be worth determining who else might have had access to that desktop computer and whether any of those people ever used "fry a hard drive" to refer to deliberate destruction of data rather than accidental damage.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm really glad you got the conversation started here about this aspect, Chump.

Because we don't seem to have our topic-oriented threads newly organized yet, I want to bring over what I said on another thread so you don't miss it.

Minus absolute proof that Gricar made the searches himself (and I still wonder what absolute proof would be), it would be worth determining who else might have had access to that desktop computer and whether any of those people ever used "fry a hard drive" to refer to deliberate destruction of data rather than accidental damage.

I'm going to look at pigeon entrails again and bet that there will be more forthcoming on the searches, when the time is right. It actually isn't an issue, since other witnesses indicated that RFG asked them how to do it.

"Absolute proof" isn't "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," and the latter is all that I really care about.

[gstickley]

If RG just wanted to "clean" or "erase" the hard drive, why wouldn't he just look up those terms? Why would he use the "hip teenage verbage" of "fry a hard drive"? And if the earlier reports of "erasing the hard drive" actually occurred, it didn't sound like he was interested in destroying the hard drive, just "cleaning/erasing" it. Why didn't he ask his "good buddy" how to do it? Did his "good buddy" give him the "hip teenage verbage"?

IMO, the hole that has been dug here in relation to "the hard drive" is getting deeper & deeper all the time. And that "good buddy" seems to have a remarkable memory, because so many things that occurred so long ago are being "remembered" as time goes by . . .

[2-B]

It wouldn't have to be on the tip of his tongue. He could:

A. See it while searching.

But it doesn't come up in searching with regard to deliberate destruction of data.

B. Picked up a jargon term from anyone younger, like TG, CG, SS, EW, PEF and used it.

It isn't jargon used for deliberate destruction. It's jargon that refers to things that go haywire. The key is figuring out who uses that term to refer to deliberate destruction within the circle of people who had access to that computer, RG or otherwise.

Sorry, but it is a fairly common term, even for someone 59 years old. "Fried" is not unknown hypertechnical term, when talking about anything electronic.

If this were true with respect to deliberately damaging a hard drive, the google search for "how to fry a hard drive" would have returned more than one result relevant to deliberate damage to a hard drive using that phrasing. It didn't. It's common only with respect to something going haywire and ruining data on a drive.

As I said, there's really no point in continuing to try to sell this unless someone has RG on audio or video or in print using this terminology to mean deliberate damage of a hard drive.

It's not the common use, and it's not a term of art for deliberate damage. That alone makes the search terms, the searches themselves, and the claim that Gricar himself made them suspect unless an irrefutable basis for proof that Gricar made them can offered.

So far, that basis has NOT been offered.

[2-B]

Why would you mock linguistic analysis? It's not examining pigeon entrails. It's one more forensic avenue that's been used as part of investigating any number of cases.

[sherrijean981]

My question to the whole thing is if they were told at the beginning of the case by PF that he was looking into an item to erase his computer or the laptop and they took the home computer, why are they waiting until now to tell the results of the search on the computer? Why wait for the 4th year anniversary of his disappearance of something that they should have found in 2005?
Why now?????

[Politigal]

My question to the whole thing is if they were told at the beginning of the case by PF that he was looking into an item to erase his computer or the laptop and they took the home computer, why are they waiting until now to tell the results of the search on the computer? Why wait for the 4th year anniversary of his disappearance of something that they should have found in 2005?
Why now?????

Rumor has it that since MM hasn't solved the case, he's about to push the premise that Gricar flew the coop on his own, and call it - case closed.

[Politigal]

I'm curious...do we know who actually did the computer forensics in this case and found those searches on the home computer?

Was it Bellefonte Police, PSP, or the FBI?

I can't imagine Bellefonte having the smartz to do that. :thumbdown:

[J. J. in Phila]

I, for one, never thought that at all. I never thought he went to Lewisburg in the first place; I never thought he tossed the laptop/hard drive any place. And, most of all, I certainly never thought he planned anything, especially the famous "YITMAMPWT". (For those of you who may have forgotten the famous "YITMAMPWT", it stands for "Years In The Making And Meticulously Planned Walkaway Theory".)


He was obviously thinking about erasing the data on the laptop as long as 16 months prior to his disappearance. Now, that is known, and doesn't have a darn thing to do with anything from PEF (or any of the staff). It might not have anything to do with his disappearance.

The problem that I now have with him meeting anyone in Lewisburg is the time frame. He was there in the early afternoon; he was there after 4:00 PM. He wasn't intently talking with someone. He wasn't with a woman. He could have thought, **I'll take the opportunity to get rid of the drive." He did that first, and that's why he got down there earlier.

He was seen carrying something when he was parked across from the museum.

There may be a lot more forthcoming on the laptop, from a number of directions.

[J. J. in Phila]

Rumor has it that since MM hasn't solved the case, he's about to push the premise that Gricar flew the coop on his own, and call it - case closed.


The rumor mill is wrong on that. They need evidence of walkaway.

If they have that evidence, it will be presented, and it will be documented

If it's anything, Willoughby's explanation is much better. First, RFG kills himself, then he's publicly executed. Unless they have solid evidence.

SJ, my guess is LE has the solution, it just isn't being released.

[Cloudbuster]

The drug bust wasn't being handled by the Centre County DA's office.

You'll see a lot the prosecution evidence cited in this article, two years after RFG disappeared.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/10847837.html

And, there has been no indication that the laptop was involved in either. There is an indication that RFG was interested in destroying the contents of the laptop, though that might not be related directly to his disappearance.


http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-01-05tdc/04-01-05dnews-07.asp
Gricar said the Centre County Drug Task Force provided the initial information and as the investigation progressed, the Attorney General's Office began to investigate.

The investigation began in late 2004, after the grand jury received reports of Lee distributing heroin and cocaine in Centre County, according to court documents.

Preliminary hearings are scheduled for Wednesday.



Notice Wednesday the preliminarys are to begin that's APRIL 6, 2005.

[J. J. in Phila]

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-01-05tdc/04-01-05dnews-07.asp
Gricar said the Centre County Drug Task Force provided the initial information and as the investigation progressed, the Attorney General's Office began to investigate.

The investigation began in late 2004, after the grand jury received reports of Lee distributing heroin and cocaine in Centre County, according to court documents.

Preliminary hearings are scheduled for Wednesday.



Notice Wednesday the preliminarys are to begin that's APRIL 6, 2005.

They were not prosecuting the case; the AG's office was, which is you saw RFG grimly standing next to TC.

[Cloudbuster]

He was obviously thinking about erasing the data on the laptop as long as 16 months prior to his disappearance. Now, that is known, and doesn't have a darn thing to do with anything from PEF (or any of the staff). It might not have anything to do with his disappearance.

The problem that I now have with him meeting anyone in Lewisburg is the time frame. He was there in the early afternoon; he was there after 4:00 PM. He wasn't intently talking with someone. He wasn't with a woman. He could have thought, **I'll take the opportunity to get rid of the drive." He did that first, and that's why he got down there earlier.

He was seen carrying something when he was parked across from the museum.

JJ I have said in my unexplainable P Tape that it was RG that tossed the laptop. Later it seems like he regrets that (due to timing) and he spoke of he should have put off the phone call. I have no idea what phone call he meant or it meant. I don't know if this helps but it seemed the person was angry at someone for leading them to the cold waters. Thats a phrase used. IMO RG was upset at someone for leading them into a cold water position Perhaps not responding when the person should have. Seemed he was trying to put someone else off and the person he was speaking to seemed to have placed him in a bad position. There is also about the insurance deal which IMO seemed also put off. I don't know if it meant vehicle insurance or insurance of some type. It also seemed that after he tossed the laptop a murderer pulled out. YA I know but ya know I gotta say it. A murderer pulling out doesn't nessasarily mean he killed RG. IMOO I think he did. IMOO whoever Sparkles is. Weirdly in another case they was looking for a person who called himself SWEET (go figure). So Im sorry but I just can't help it.

There may be a lot more forthcoming on the laptop, from a number of directions.
For some reason Im having trouble getting this to post.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ that photo standing next to TC was a cropped version and is misleading. I once posted the link of the real whole photo which was RG and TC was in the middle and beside TC is Maderia. After examing it the hard look on RG was directly looking at MM not TC. Why that was done I do not know.

[Cloudbuster]

Here is the picture JJ
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/thumb_20050330-StateCollegeDrugs2-366x244.jpg

[J. J. in Phila]

CB, my only reference to phone is that RFG was not handling the case.

[Politigal]

I'm curious...do we know who actually did the computer forensics in this case and found those searches on the home computer?

Was it Bellefonte Police, PSP, or the FBI?

I can't imagine Bellefonte having the smartz to do that. :thumbdown:

bumping...

anyone know?

[Serendipitous1]

bumping...anyone know?Wednesday's article in the CDT said it was "the state police forensic computer lab" which found the searches for information on Gricar's computer.

[Politigal]

Wednesday's article in the CDT said it was "the state police forensic computer lab" which found the searches for information on Gricar's computer.

thank you....I guess I missed that part.

[Serendipitous1]

For some reason Im having trouble getting this to post.In the general hints forum, Coldwater has advised not to put long quotes in our replies to posts...but rather to just cite the post number we are replying to. This may be part of the trouble you are having.

[2-B]

I'm going to look at pigeon entrails again and bet that there will be more forthcoming on the searches, when the time is right. It actually isn't an issue, since other witnesses indicated that RFG asked them how to do it.

"Absolute proof" isn't "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," and the latter is all that I really care about.

Proof that it's not a random universe, but a "serendipitous" one (apologies to S1--perhaps I should say a synchronistic one):

I had the radio on late last night and lo and behold, what's on but a discussion of forensic linguistic analysis. And no mention of pigeon entrails!

[Politigal]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the State Police, but I don't have a link to that effect. ^^^^Thanks Serp1. You're too fast.

I also have a somewhat related question. Were the articles on the searches for destroying/frying/fricaseeing a hard drive written (as it relates to the Bellefonte Police and the DA) solely off the press release? Or were actual live interviews conducted?

I looked on-line to see if I could find a copy of the press release itself, but couldn't. I'd like to see what the press release/police actually said and how it was said regarding the search terms.

I was curious about an actual police press release too...but couldn't find one.

We could both email the CDT author of the articles - Sarah Ganim - but I don't think she'd respond to me again....lol

sganim@centredaily.com

[Serendipitous1]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the State Police, but I don't have a link to that effect. ^^^^Thanks Serp1. You're too fast.

I also have a somewhat related question. Were the articles on the searches for destroying/frying/fricaseeing a hard drive written (as it relates to the Bellefonte Police and the DA) solely off the press release? Or were actual live interviews conducted?

I looked on-line to see if I could find a copy of the press release itself, but couldn't. I'd like to see what the press release/police actually said and how it was said regarding the search terms.I could not find the original press release either. But I think the similarities of the articles which appeared in the CDT and Collegian point toward the release rather than interviews. It was also mentioned that MM could not be found before press time.

On the other hand, TG's comments were obviously by interview. I was disgusted by how his comments got fragmented and lost in the CDT's articles.

I find it interesting and perhaps telling that it was The Daily Collegian which was able to collect the thoughts of all candidates. Kudos to Staff Writer Mandy Hofmockel for this week's excellent reporting. Perhaps she could be persuaded to post the actual press release.

Maybe the CDT will eventually publish interviews with the candidates too. But I thought the fourth-anniversary articles in the CDT were...in a word...pitiful. So there may be a reason we have seen nothing else about Gricar (or the candidates) since (hint to BH and MJ).

[gstickley]

It does seem a bit "strange" that "The Daily Collegian" had the story on the candidates . . . at 4:59 AM today . . . yet there is nothing thus far in the CDT about it.

And, I totally agree with S1's thoughts about TG's comments being slaughtered in the press.

[J. J. in Phila]

The "breaking news" on the case trumped the anniversary stories accross the press, which I think was the intent. TG was totally blindsided.

There was an anniversary piece in the blog, however. It even mentioned the "new" information.

[2-B]

I was disgusted by how his comments got fragmented and lost in the CDT's articles.


My blood pressure still skyrockets every time I think about this. Unfair to the spirit of TG's actual comments. Unfair to Ray with regard to public perception.

[ladyheartfixer]

Unfortunately, as I know from my past experience with a triple homicide...once you say something to the press it is open to them taking anything out of context they want. It sells...it can be manipulated and as long as they have it given as your comment...they make it fly where ever they want...

[Cloudbuster]

S1 thanks for showing what I did wrong!!! LadyHFixer I agree once a paper has what you say it usually can take on a whole new meaning. It happens at times. When I was working a hit n run case (it was personal to me) things I've said was made to look very different than what I meant. That occurred only after the driver was caught one year later. I believe it was because it sold stories. At that point you had his version and our version. They painted a very somber man ect. Luckily the news stations didn't do that.

[sherrijean981]

another one from memory lane:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/10/02/missing_das_hard_drive_reveals.aspx?print=1

In response to what Madeira called "rumors" that Gricar was interested in clearing his hard drive before retiring, Madeira said there is no evidence Gricar tried to wipe the hard drive clean. Madeira said Gricar's girlfriend at the time, Patty Fornicola, remembered seeing "what she thought was a box for that type of program" at the house, but no wipe-drive program was ever recovered.


I am going out on a limb here, but during the search of the river, around the time the laptop and hard drive were found, wasn't there also a disk or cd and it was said not to be anything to do with this case? What if the program was also thrown in the river?

[Serendipitous1]

I am going out on a limb here, but during the search of the river, around the time the laptop and hard drive were found, wasn't there also a disk or cd and it was said not to be anything to do with this case? What if the program was also thrown in the river?There was a false start in regard to RG's computer. I would love to hear what that was all about. Carla Baron...can you hear us?

[Politigal]

I am going out on a limb here, but during the search of the river, around the time the laptop and hard drive were found, wasn't there also a disk or cd and it was said not to be anything to do with this case? What if the program was also thrown in the river?

I found that article....it was a hard drive from a desktop computer..

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-03-05tdc/08-03-05dnews-03.asp

[sherrijean981]

I found that article....it was a hard drive from a desktop computer..

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-03-05tdc/08-03-05dnews-03.asp


How odd was it that another hard drive was in the river? Susquehanna River must be a dumping ground.
Wasn't the woman and little girl who found the hard drive to the computer working with Carla Baron too? Or with someone who was?

[J. J. in Phila]

How odd was it that another hard drive was in the river? Susquehanna River must be a dumping ground.
Wasn't the woman and little girl who found the hard drive to the computer working with Carla Baron too? Or with someone who was?

No, it's good way to dispose of a hard drive. It's like finding garbage in a garbage can. :)

[day2day]

I'm curious...do we know who actually did the computer forensics in this case and found those searches on the home computer?

Was it Bellefonte Police, PSP, or the FBI?

I can't imagine Bellefonte having the smartz to do that. :thumbdown:

Good question -Pgal! I would bet the farm that Detz didnt do it -:tonguewag:
jmo

[Serendipitous1]

PF was not mentioned by name even though the computers, which were thrust into the news again, were in the home she shared with Ray Gricar. It would appear that she is done with the media. I find that a bit curious.

DZ has remained almost totally silent since being taken off the Gricar case. I had hoped that he would have grown "a set" by now...but apparently not. Redheads...go figure.

The CDT totally sensationalized the "new" news. TG said the family was blindsided by it. LG had nothing to say. MR, SW and MM tried to 'schmooze' over their apparent gaffe. But there has been nothing new in the CDT since publishing the contents of LE's press release...unlike the perpetually tested student newspaper.

The actual press release has not been published. I have a copy of the outrageously salacious PSU Judicial Affairs testimony in the Paxson case. Is it really too much to ask for verbatim copies of LE's press releases in the Gricar case...a non-criminal, missing-person case?

In a thousand or so days (traditionally), Gricar can be declared "dead" upon petition to the court, and his estate will be settled (distributed). Gricar knows the law. Is there any reason to believe this eventuality has any special significance? Would there be any reason to "move this eventuality up"?

[Politigal]

PF was not mentioned by name even though the computers, which were thrust into the news again, were in the home she shared with Ray Gricar. It would appear that she is done with the media. I find that a bit curious.

DZ has remained almost totally silent since being taken off the Gricar case. I had hoped that he would have grown "a set" by now...but apparently not. Redheads...go figure.

The CDT totally sensationalized the "new" news. TG said the family was blindsided by it. LG had nothing to say. MR, SW and MM tried to 'schmooze' over their apparent gaffe. But there has been nothing new in the CDT since publishing the contents of LE's press release...unlike the perpetually tested student newspaper.

The actual press release has not been published. I have a copy of the outrageously salacious PSU Judicial Affairs testimony in the Paxson case. Is it really too much to ask for verbatim copies of LE's press releases in the Gricar case...a non-criminal, missing-person case?

In a thousand or so days (traditionally), Gricar can be declared "dead" upon petition to the court, and his estate will be settled (distributed). Gricar knows the law. Is there any reason to believe this eventuality has any special significance? Would there be any reason to "move this eventuality up"?

I've contacted Mandy Hofmockel at the Daily Collegian, Sara Ganim at the Centre Daily Times, and Matt Rickard at the Bellefonte Police (via email and phone and provided my fax number/email) --- trying to get a copy of the Press Release...so far, no luck.

Wouldn't a press release be considered an "open record" type thing???

[Serendipitous1]

I've contacted Mandy Hofmockel at the Daily Collegian, Sara Ganim at the Centre Daily Times, and Matt Rickard at the Bellefonte Police (via email and phone and provided my fax number/email) --- trying to get a copy of the Press Release...so far, no luck.

Wouldn't a press release be considered an "open record" type thing???It absolutely would. I suggest you try Mandy again...or else file through the state system. Regardless, the truth will out itself. I read that on here once...and I believe it.

[2-B]

The CDT totally sensationalized the "new" news. TG said the family was blindsided by it. LG had nothing to say. MR, SW and MM tried to 'schmooze' over their apparent gaffe. But there has been nothing new in the CDT since publishing the contents of LE's press release...unlike the perpetually tested student newspaper.

That's exactly what I felt by the time the second article was published with its screaming headline. Completely sensationalized. And TG's explanation to us of how his comments were, shall we say, shaped to represent a certain angle--that just underscores the observation. We need a real investigative journalist at the CDT.

The actual press release has not been published. I have a copy of the outrageously salacious PSU Judicial Affairs testimony in the Paxson case. Is it really too much to ask for verbatim copies of LE's press releases in the Gricar case...a non-criminal, missing-person case?

It shouldn't be. I want to see the precise wording MR used, not SG's interpretation or anyone else's interpretation of what MR said.

[Politigal]

It absolutely would. I suggest you try Mandy again...or else file through the state system. Regardless, the truth will out itself. I read that on here once...and I believe it.

I did contact Mandy again. She said I'd have to get it from police directly. Why...I don't know.

I can guess though.

ps...I did download the form to formally request it, but of course, that could take 5 days or more.

[gstickley]

I did contact Mandy again. She said I'd have to get it from police directly. Why...I don't know.

I can guess though.

ps...I did download the form to formally request it, but of course, that could take 5 days or more.

Why would you have to go through the police to obtain a news report from a college reporter, a news report that has already been made public?

[Serendipitous1]

I did contact Mandy again. She said I'd have to get it from police directly. Why...I don't know.

I can guess though.

ps...I did download the form to formally request it, but of course, that could take 5 days or more.We have waited 4 years. What is 5 days? Do it! And let the chips fall where they may.

[day2day]

Why would you have to go through the police to obtain a news report from a college reporter, a news report that has already been made public?

Just like almost EVERYTHING else in this case-i call BS! I say do what ya gotta do Pgal-don't EVER stop..keep the heat on these "people" :(

[gstickley]

Ditto, Pgal., what Day said!!!!!!!!

[Serendipitous1]

Just like almost EVERYTHING else in this case-i call BS! I say do what ya gotta do Pgal-don't EVER stop..keep the heat on these "people" :(Amen to that. I just hope someone with knowledge, and balls...or the equivalent testosterone in SPM's case (and even JKA's) is "listening".

[Politigal]

Amen to that. I just hope someone with knowledge, and balls...or at least the equivalent testosterone (in SPM's case...even JKA's)...is listening.

I emailed all three candidates several wks ago about the case...not one responded.

[Serendipitous1]

I emailed all three candidates several wks ago about the case...not one responded.Go figure. MM made Gricar an issue. But I guess we will have to be satisfied with the weekly (read: weakly) responses to the CDT's questions...unless there is a candidate willing to strike out on her/his own.

[Politigal]

I phoned Genaro Armas of the Associated Press in State College this am just to see if *he* could get me a copy of the Press Release. I've left him a voice mail.

[puzzled]

Was'nt Cloudbuster or someone on the board mentioning several times that they were getting a name of Sparks or Sparky or something? Perhaps it was SPM that was coming through? I dunno.
In my opinion why would MR go and talk to the prisoners if he thought Ray walked away? I am glad that he is talking with them...however I would think that if any of them truly knew something they would be trying to cut some kind of deal. I think his visits to the prison are indicative of a foul play situation. Which I have said from day 1 is the case in my opinion. For God's sake I hope this case is over with soon...I am not sure how much more my nerves can take!

[Cloudbuster]

Puzzled I know how you feel and can relate. My system has done undesirable things to me since this case, but yet I would not trade the experiences in another way. I have my days and nights mixed up lol not to mention about 2 or 3 years ago the onset of diabetes ect. Its neat how God can put a caring in a person(s) that don't even know this man. That is stranger than fiction. We all have collectivly grown to care about the truth concerning this man, many of us are unknown to him. Yet we carry a torch on.

Yes I did talk about Sparkles. Weirdly that case of Rodgers stands out for very strange reasons also. They are looking for a man named SWEETS? Also you have a Ronnie STARR in that case and a dead guy named PARKS. Its interesting because on the paranormal tape a song background is played in piano form. The background song of "twinkle twinkle little STAR. I also had a experience relating to the STAR. Oh I just wonder if that is it?