American Girl, Italian Nightmare - 4/5 to 7/15

[Jester]

The other thread is closed, so I'll continue here. I just read the links updates, and find it interesting that Rudy isn't talking. If Amanda and Raf were not involved, wouldn't he say so in court and end the entire trial? He was at the scene at the time of the murder. He knows who was involved. If Amanda and Raf were innocent, what reason would he have for not stating loud and clear right now that they were not involved? He is already convicted and nothing more can be done to him.

I'm also very interested in the blood evidence on the knife, which is coming up next.

[logbump]

Not sure why other thread was closed. I agree that it is strange Rudy took the fifth. But then things seem to progress quite differently across the pond.

[Jester]

Not sure why other thread was closed. I agree that it is strange Rudy took the fifth. But then things seem to progress quite differently across the pond.

Is Rudy appealing his conviction and sentence? If so, that could partially explain why he doesn't want to say anything. However, he has admitted that he was there at the time of the murder, and his DNA is at the scene. If he was there, he knows whether the man attacking Meredith was Raf or not. I wonder if the defense is also planning to call him, as that would be the quickest way to clear their clients - if they are innocent.

[Jester]

Still trying to make sense of Rudy's decision to remain silent. He told investigators that Amanda was at the house, and that he struggled with someone that resembled Raf. Could that statement have been coerced? Is he remaining silent because he knows that accusing the police of aggression, like Amanda did, will result in additional charges? Amanda pointed fingers at her boss during interrogations, possibly because police suggested he was involved. Did the same thing happen with Rudy accusing Amanda and Raf, did police suggest they were involved? Is he remaining silent because contradicting interrogation statements could place him in jeopardy in jail?

[Jester]

Wish I knew more about Italian Law. Certainly it's not called taking the fifth, but it will have to do for now.

So, how could Rudy plead the fifth if his testimony is already on record from his own trial?

It makes sense if Amanda and Raf were there and he doesn't want to implicate them, or if he's waiting to appeal and doesn't want any testimony to be used against him in an appeal?

[doctor_J]

I'm thinking neither prosecution or defense would want to touch Rudy with a ten foot pole. He's repeatedly lied, is a known and admitted drug user and dealer, a rapist and convicted murderer. Nothing he says is going to help anyone, it will be twisted either way and a jury will dismiss it. Probably noone trusts him to actually answer the way he says he will. The old adage, never ask a question you don't know the answer to, applies.

[Jester]

In the US, Rudy's sworn testimony already on record could br brought in, right?

How does that work in Italy?

Is that true? If a guy has been convicted but his case is under appeal, can he be required to testify in a related case, or can the details of his case be used in a related case? If he is under appeal?

In the US, the cases would have to be severed or joined before they could be tried, and then I doubt testimony in one case could be used in another. Not sure. What do you think?

Rudy chose a speedy trial, more or less severing himself from Amanda and Raf in the hopes of a more lenient sentence. It didn't work.

If he saw the person that murdered Meredith and it wasn't Raf or Amanda, why is he remaining silent? Surely releasing them from persecution is not beyond him ... unless he would be lying if he said that they were not at the flat when Meredith was murdered (and he was in the bathroom).

[Coldwater]

American Girl, Italian Nightmare
Saturday, April 11, 2009, at 10 p.m. ET/PT

A 16-month investigation by CBS News raises serious questions about the case against Amanda Knox, the American college student on trial for murder in Italy.

Just weeks after Amanda Knox, a 21-year-old foreign-exchange student from Seattle, arrived in Perugia, Italy, her roommate was found murdered. Days later, Amanda and her boyfriend were arrested as suspects. Today, they are on trial for murder.

In an exclusive audio tape obtained by 48 Hours Mystery, Amanda tells an Italian judge what went on during her 14-hour police interrogation - and claims physical abuse by a police officer led to her false confession.

Amanda's interrogation experience is echoed by American author Doug Preston, who was living in Italy and ran afoul of the same prosecutor on a completely different case. In 2006, he was writing a true-crime book about serial killings in Tuscany that challenged investigators' theory of that case. The same prosecutor in Amanda's case accused Preston of being involved in the murders and falsifying evidence.

That prosecutor is himself in trouble with the law, and Preston believes he is "absolutely determined" to see Amanda convicted.

Do Italian investigators have a solid case against Amanda? Or is the honors student being falsely accused? Our investigation reveals disturbing evidence, questionable witnesses and possible prosecutorial misconduct.

Peter Van Sant reports for48 Hours Mystery, Saturday, April 11, at 10 p.m. ET/PT.

[ginky41]

:cursing:

I have Dish Network meaning CBS doesn't come in.

[Jester]

I looked for it too ... it wasn't on here, but definitely interested in seeing it and thanks for the tip.

Very balanced arguments in the case, leaving me perplexed.

[Len]

I watched it. I think I am now convinced that she is innocent. I was not sure before, but learning what a nut the Italian prosecutor in the case is convinced me that she is innocent. The "satanic orgy" theory of the italian prosecutor is ridiculous.

[Jester]

I watched it. I think I am now convinced that she is innocent. I was not sure before, but learning what a nut the Italian prosecutor in the case is convinced me that she is innocent. The "satanic orgy" theory of the italian prosecutor is ridiculous.

You believe that the prosecutor is corrupt?

Will this be enough to get Amanda and Raf off the murder charge, a charge for which there has already been a rape conviction - with a guy that Raf claims he never met?

[JD1974]

You believe that the prosecutor is corrupt?

Will this be enough to get Amanda and Raf off the murder charge, a charge for which there has already been a rape conviction - with a guy that Raf claims he never met?

I thought Rudy wasn't convicted for the rape, just the murder? They left a lot out of the show. I do recall hearing at the end that a guilty verdict is pretty much a foregone conclusion as far as the reporter (can't remember his name) is concerned, he said something to the effect that there is no way she will be found not guilty because of the feelings in Perugia about her...


P.S. I wonder if the prosecutor is a reincarnation of someone from the spanish inquisiton though, he does seem really fixated on the satanic rituals being a cause for quite a bit of murders.

[Len]

You believe that the prosecutor is corrupt?

Will this be enough to get Amanda and Raf off the murder charge, a charge for which there has already been a rape conviction - with a guy that Raf claims he never met?



No, I dont think he is corrupt. It just sounds that he has some totally crazy ideas. He is obsessed with satanism and has crazy ideas like that. The description of him in 48 hours was giving the impression of someone semi-insane.

[Len]

I thought Rudy wasn't convicted for the rape, just the murder? They left a lot out of the show. I do recall hearing at the end that a guilty verdict is pretty much a foregone conclusion as far as the reporter (can't remember his name) is concerned, he said something to the effect that there is no way she will be found not guilty because of the feelings in Perugia about her...


P.S. I wonder if the prosecutor is a reincarnation of someone from the spanish inquisiton though, he does seem really fixated on the satanic rituals being a cause for quite a bit of murders.


It sounds like Rudy was the murderer for sure and that is why he was convicted. He has admitted being there when the murder happened (although he says that he was in the bathroom when she was killed). To me, what points strongly to the innocence of Amanda and Raffaelle is the very simple fact that they had no communications with Rudy. No phone calls, no messages, nothing to seriously link them. They did not know each other. The prosecutor's theory is that they were trying to have a satanistic ritual/sex orgy with Rudy and and that Meredith refused to participate and that is why they killed her. It is a totally bizzare theory with no real basis. There is nothing to substantiate the idea of the satanistic ritual or a sex orgy. Only the wild imagination of the Italian prosecutor.

P.S. Tomas de Torquemada :-)

[Anni]

That prosecutor is a freakin weirdo, what a sham. BRING AMANDA HOME...

[CelticDawn]

That prosecutor is a freakin weirdo, what a sham. BRING AMANDA HOME...

been following this for quite some time.

where is the american Embassy in this?


That girl needs some kind of a shield. This is just wrong.

she is innocent.

[Len]

been following this for quite some time.

where is the american Embassy in this?


That girl needs some kind of a shield. This is just wrong.

she is innocent.



I was wondering about that. I suspect that the only reason there have been no protestations to the Italian government is that there has been some DNA evidence linking Raffaelle to the murder and Amanda says she was with Raffaelle that night. So there is some forensic evidence linking them to the crime. The problem is that the Italian police did not follow carefully guidelines to collect evidence and it is possible (and IMO likely) that the evidence was contaminated.

[CelticDawn]

What is the American Embassy supposed to do? They have no control over this. No branch of the US Gov't has authority over the Judicial system of another country. This is clearly stated in the US Passport and on the official US Federal State Department site.

Traveling abroad is a privilege granted by the country visited. It is not a dispensation to bypass laws of the land.

In order for Amanda Knox to be found not guilty, it must be in an Italian court, according to Italian Judicial System.

No,...they dont ....but in many cases a Congressman or someone who has some pull can get involved and protect american citizens abroad....Ive heard of them doing something for a girl caught dealing drugs.....and this girl is certainly not some lowlife drug dealer.....she needs help.

[Anni]

I was wondering about that. I suspect that the only reason there have been no protestations to the Italian government is that there has been some DNA evidence linking Raffaelle to the murder and Amanda says she was with Raffaelle that night. So there is some forensic evidence linking them to the crime. The problem is that the Italian police did not follow carefully guidelines to collect evidence and it is possible (and IMO likely) that the evidence was contaminated.

They have ABSOLUTLY no evidence against Amanda. Heck the journalist the held for 27 days said even he almost broke after being interrogated for 3 days. They are trained to interrogate the mafia for God sake.

Anyone prosecutor that consults someone talking to a dead man to convict an innocent ought to be at the "looney farm"

[lunchlady]

I am very intrigued by the two breakins at the cottage. There were candles left behind, items are now missing from the house, the crime scene is totally spoiled (not that it was well processed in the first place). I haven't heard of any efforts to fingerprint the cottage or other methods to catch the intruders. Even if the breakins seem trivial to the police I think they should do at least a bit of detective work to attempt to catch a new clue.

Was this just a prank by the locals visiting the haunted murder site? Is it evidence of local satanic/occult/kinky rituals or parties? Why would the intruders take the mattress and the box of knives? Is someone who knows Amanda or Raffaele trying to make the case look misguided?

[Jester]

I thought Rudy wasn't convicted for the rape, just the murder? They left a lot out of the show. I do recall hearing at the end that a guilty verdict is pretty much a foregone conclusion as far as the reporter (can't remember his name) is concerned, he said something to the effect that there is no way she will be found not guilty because of the feelings in Perugia about her...


P.S. I wonder if the prosecutor is a reincarnation of someone from the spanish inquisiton though, he does seem really fixated on the satanic rituals being a cause for quite a bit of murders.

My mistake ... yes, he claimed sex was consensual and no way to prove otherwise.

Do you by chance know if the program is online somewhere?

[nealnorm]

no wonder so many feel amanda is innocent, the 48 hours expose on the case was the most baised, one-sided piece of 'journalism' that I have ever seen. I was Infuriated. The show progressed from being about a legitimate murder trial to being 'Amanda's ordeal'. Poor American girl innocently swallowed up in alien archaic justice system. At the very least, from the evidence I've seen, that this is a trial that needs to happen. Circumstantially, I believe she was involved.

[Mandymax]

I tend to believe she had some involvement, but I agree the satanic ritual/orgy thing is just out there. I think that's what gives so many people pause - not necessarily the fact that Amanda might have been involved, but that she was involved in THIS specifically, as a motive.

As always, my own opinion.

[lunchlady]

I try to not be overly influenced by odd conduct, but A and R's behavior in the lingerie store shortly after talking to police still bothers me. It seems so inappropriate and even like the murder situation has made them feel sexually frisky, especially Amanda. Perhaps she was trying to impress Raf with how outrageous she can be, but he doesn't seem shocked at all.
This seems really abnormal and not just an attempt to break out of the horror and shock of having a roommate die and being interrogated, or just the strong sexual attraction between two new young lovers. It even seems like they're sort of celebrating not being arrested immediately, perhaps prematurely thinking they'd pulled off a clever and successful coverup.

This scene keeps returning to my mind. Each piece of badly handled evidence can be individually discredited, but there is quite a bit of it all in all. The jury will get to decide eventually. I don't know if they will see or hear about the lingerie store scene, but they are not cloistered like they are here. I guess cloistering would be pretty tough given how long the trials take.

[Jester]

Too many unanswered questions for me to assume Amanda Knox is not guilty right now. Nor do I assume she is guilty.

Not a whole lot of trial coverage, either.

48 Hours is certainly NOT what I will bas my opinion on.

A program criticizing the prosecutor would not be enough to convince me that Amanda was innocent. There are still too many unanswered questions.

[Jester]

I try to not be overly influenced by odd conduct, but A and R's behavior in the lingerie store shortly after talking to police still bothers me. It seems so inappropriate and even like the murder situation has made them feel sexually frisky, especially Amanda. Perhaps she was trying to impress Raf with how outrageous she can be, but he doesn't seem shocked at all.
This seems really abnormal and not just an attempt to break out of the horror and shock of having a roommate die and being interrogated, or just the strong sexual attraction between two new young lovers. It even seems like they're sort of celebrating not being arrested immediately, perhaps prematurely thinking they'd pulled off a clever and successful coverup.

This scene keeps returning to my mind. Each piece of badly handled evidence can be individually discredited, but there is quite a bit of it all in all. The jury will get to decide eventually. I don't know if they will see or hear about the lingerie store scene, but they are not cloistered like they are here. I guess cloistering would be pretty tough given how long the trials take.

I can understand some of the evidence being mishandled, but not all of it. So far, the suggestion is that pretty much all police evidence has some problem.

[penguin01]

I watched it. I think I am now convinced that she is innocent. I was not sure before, but learning what a nut the Italian prosecutor in the case is convinced me that she is innocent. The "satanic orgy" theory of the italian prosecutor is ridiculous.
That and the fact that there is no connection between the killer (Rudy) and the young lovers. Apparently that Prosecutor is a big fan of a "seer" who has had the poor man convinced for many, many years of this "Satanic Cult" and he has not yet managed to convict anyone or even show actual evidence that the cult actually exists.
I was very impressed with the writer who spoke of being interrogated for only a few hours by this Prosecutor.... it was an unbelievably scary experience for him: and he couldn't imagine what it would be like for a young girl put in that position for 14 hours. He and his wife left Italy immediately afterward in fear for their safety due to this prosecutor.. At that time the poor misguided prosecutor was trying to prove that a series of murders by a serial killer was actually the work of this same Satanic Cult. He still hasn't gotten anywhere with that one - so this case with Amanada may be his last chance to prove this Cult thing.

[mafitz701]

I don't think they could have mishandled all of the evidence. The problem is that the piece of evidence they have that puts Raf at the scene of the crime is the bra clasp that was found on December 16 and when tested came up with 4 DNA samples and one of those belonged to Raf while the other 3 belonged to females (none Amanda).

Then the piece of evidence they have the puts Amanda at the crime scene is the knife that they are saying is the murder weapon and has Amanda's dna at the handle and Meredith's dna on the blade. The dna result on the handle showed one allele in common with Amanda while the dna linked to Meredith showed fewer than 4 in common.

This is one of many problems with this case.

[Debb]

no wonder so many feel amanda is innocent, the 48 hours expose on the case was the most baised, one-sided piece of 'journalism' that I have ever seen. I was Infuriated. The show progressed from being about a legitimate murder trial to being 'Amanda's ordeal'. Poor American girl innocently swallowed up in alien archaic justice system. At the very least, from the evidence I've seen, that this is a trial that needs to happen. Circumstantially, I believe she was involved.


I agree with you. I wondered if it was just me or was that CBS special all about how innocent Amanda is. I found it so biased, that I question the allegations they made about the prosecutor.
I'm not saying Amanda is absolutely guilty, but I am curious as to what involvment she had. Perhaps after all the evidence is introduced, we'll know more.

[nsm]

I dont think some people realize that when you leave the USA, you are going to be in a strange country that has different laws. Who knew someone could be held that long before a trial. They obviously dont protect the crime scene like our country does. This case is perplexing and I truly feel that a person should not be judged by how they react or dont react. But this girl actually seemed like she couldnt care less about what happened to that poor girl. She sang, she laughed and carried on like it was no big deal. I know she is young, but If that was me, I would be freaking out! She seems like she has not a care in the world. Its her mother and father who are suffering the most. If she gets out of this mess, it will be a miracle.

[Jester]

Why isnt the title Amanda Knox Murder Trial? Isnt' that really what this is, a murder trial? Why the tabloid slant? :( '

Italian Nightmare? Maybe for Meredith, yes. :rose:

I think the title refers to the 48 Hour show that was on last weekend.

[Debb]

I dont think some people realize that when you leave the USA, you are going to be in a strange country that has different laws. Who knew someone could be held that long before a trial. They obviously dont protect the crime scene like our country does. This case is perplexing and I truly feel that a person should not be judged by how they react or dont react. But this girl actually seemed like she couldnt care less about what happened to that poor girl. She sang, she laughed and carried on like it was no big deal. I know she is young, but If that was me, I would be freaking out! She seems like she has not a care in the world. Its her mother and father who are suffering the most. If she gets out of this mess, it will be a miracle.

I agree. I do think people react differently, but some things are just too bizarre. Does anyone remember when the video was taken of Amanda and her boyfriend kissing and hugging and all over each other outside of her flat? Was it while the police were inside surveying the murder scene? Was the body still inside? I saw the footage but never checked to see when it was taped. Does anyone know the time sequence and does anyone know if that has been introduced in the trial?

[lane99]

I totally agree

Me, too. The very fact that- don't recall his name, but that overweight PI- is shilling for Amanda Knox causes me to be supsicious of her. He pretty much resorted to all the OJ style defenses in the book (including the Cochranisms about having "to acquit, if it don't fit). He spouts similar nonsense about the woman in Washington who poisoned her husband with Excedrin. That guy is nothing but a conman who gets his kicks by trying to whitewash female murderers guilt.

On the other hand, this certainly doesn't seem to be an open and shut case. But her lifestyle there seems to have been risky and unseemly, so it's not out of the question she got involved in something that got out of the hand.

To me, the dna evidence is the strongest indication that she and her bf could very well be involved in the murder of that beautiful young woman.

[tuscanskin]

I attended two days of this trial when I visited beautiful Italy in the latter part of February.

My observations:

This jury seems to have made up their mind.

Beautiful Amanda sits there very stoic and smug.

Raf is very nervous. His nails are bitten all the way down and he nervously swivels in his chair.

Amanda has changed her story. All but one of her fingerprints was found in her own home. The house (murder scene) smelled of bleach...the maid testified that she did not use bleach.

Raf's claims that he was on his cell phone and computer on the night of the murder, have been disproven.

The US magazine reporter I sat with told me that Meridith's murder was brutal and that someone needs to pay.

Also, A & R have color coordinated their outfits each day.

CBS' 48 Hours was very biased. IMO

[KaraokeDiva]

Too many unanswered questions for me to assume Amanda Knox is not guilty right now. Nor do I assume she is guilty.

Not a whole lot of trial coverage, either.

48 Hours is certainly NOT what I will bas my opinion on.
I had hoped the program would be more informational but it was definitely a piece advocating for Amanda....

No way to form an opinion based upon that show.

[snarkytart]

They have ABSOLUTLY no evidence against Amanda. Heck the journalist the held for 27 days said even he almost broke after being interrogated for 3 days. They are trained to interrogate the mafia for God sake.

Anyone prosecutor that consults someone talking to a dead man to convict an innocent ought to be at the "looney farm"

I think an Italian court threw out the confession, because her lawyer was present. Also, there is the language barrier. I wouldn't believe that signed confession unless I saw video of her saying the exact thing in the signed confession or at least a audio of Amanda confessing.

[snarkytart]

Me, too. The very fact that- don't recall his name, but that overweight PI- is shilling for Amanda Knox causes me to be supsicious of her. He pretty much resorted to all the OJ style defenses in the book (including the Cochranisms about having "to acquit, if it don't fit). He spouts similar nonsense about the woman in Washington who poisoned her husband with Excedrin. That guy is nothing but a conman who gets his kicks by trying to whitewash female murderers guilt.

On the other hand, this certainly doesn't seem to be an open and shut case. But her lifestyle there seems to have been risky and unseemly, so it's not out of the question she got involved in something that got out of the hand.

To me, the dna evidence is the strongest indication that she and her bf could very well be involved in the murder of that beautiful young woman.

What DNA evidence is there Amanda did this? She lived in that apartment, and her bf also had been there on other occasions.
Rudy's blood, semen and prints are there, he's admitted to being there and initially said Amanda wasnt. He's a known thief who carries a knife, he ran to Germany after the murder and even had wounds when picked up by the police. Where was Amanda's wounds? Where is her bloody clothes, her bloody prints at the scene? How come the police have NO EVIDENCE Amanda and her bf (of only like 3 weeks btw) ever met or had contact with Rudy? They supposedly had planned some sex orgy murder plot,and yet there is not one email, text message, voice mail, shared between them? Not one eye witness who has Amanda or her bf hanging out with Rudy around town...not before or after the murder.

Oh, and what exactly is in Amanda's background that makes you think she's troubled enough to be involved with this horrible crime? What "unseemly" lifestyle are you talking about? And what exactly would be the motive?


I think it's a simple case. A known thug/thief, breaks into the apartment to steal stuff, get's surprised by Merideth, assaults, rapes and kills her, then flees to Germany. There is no other proof it was anyone else but Rudy. Rudy had no reason to be in that apartment because he was not friends. But I guess a simple explanation isn't sexy enough for the media who wants people to read about sex orgies and bad girl Amanda's diary and about her buying sexy underwear. At least 48 hours took a cynical look at the case, unlike the rest of the world's media who have done nothing but spread rumors to sell papers. God forbid ONE program not get on the "Amanda did it" bandwagon. Most of the stuff I see repeated in this thread is from lies the media told and not actual evidence entered in court. Like the bleach non sense.

[snarkytart]

PS.


Here's a blog that also is cynical about the case:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/

[doctor_J]

I don't understand this part-time trial system. How does anyone serve jury duty? Why do they do it like this? I have tried to think of a legitimate reason. DO the judge and lawyers only work part-time? do they have many trials going on simultaneously? It's the strangest thing. I don't know how the jurors even remembe the early evidence.

I thought the 48 hrs piece was obscene. How do you get a supposedly legitimate Journalist to produce such a biased piece? I have kept up with the case and the was he left out important info and twisted others was bewildering for a respected program. It was spun so unjustly I can't believe he was not paid in some way by Amanda's supporters. Maybe he is just a true believer but if so, he still abandoned his journalistic obligations and his bosses at CBS should have called him on it.
I become more and more convinced of Amanda and Raf's guilt by the week. I do not believe the Italian CSI are a bunch of buffoons, that is an American spin, as well as a typical defense strategy. Her family has lied outright in several interviews about many details of Amanda's life---why? If she is innocent, why the lies? It would be better to admit she was not a saint and insist she is not a murderer, if they want to stand by her. I could understand that, but they've lost all credibliity.

I as definitely influenced by their behavior surrounding the case. Amanda turning cartwheels at the police station? WTH? Kissing and cuddling outside the murder scene? Repeatedly changing her story? Lying about things that don't really even matter? This is not the behavior of an innocent young woman. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc...

I think the prosecutor is harming his own case with the Satanist cult motive theory. Maybe they have to present a motive in Italian courts? I think they did it because they wanted the excitement. Wanted a violent rape and couldn't leave a witness. But often you can't explain why someone kills,you just don't know what's in their head. I think Raf will eventually turn of Amanda. He probably thinks he needs her American PR machine right now.

[Jester]

I attended two days of this trial when I visited beautiful Italy in the latter part of February.

My observations:

This jury seems to have made up their mind.

Beautiful Amanda sits there very stoic and smug.

Raf is very nervous. His nails are bitten all the way down and he nervously swivels in his chair.

Amanda has changed her story. All but one of her fingerprints was found in her own home. The house (murder scene) smelled of bleach...the maid testified that she did not use bleach.

Raf's claims that he was on his cell phone and computer on the night of the murder, have been disproven.

The US magazine reporter I sat with told me that Meridith's murder was brutal and that someone needs to pay.

Also, A & R have color coordinated their outfits each day.

CBS' 48 Hours was very biased. IMO

Thanks for the first hand glimpse of what is going on. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that only 9 of her 10 fingerprints are in her house? That seems awfully strange given that she lived there, or that she had showered there just before reporting the murder.

[lane99]

...I think it's a simple case... Most of the stuff I see repeated in this thread is from lies the media told and not actual evidence entered in court...


In my opinion it's only a simple case if one accepts- as you apparently have since you repeated it virtually verbatim- the one sided views of advocates such as that pay-for-liar PI.

Meanwhile, do you mean to suggest you are actually attending this trial in-person and thus have DIRECT access to the "actual evidence entered in court"? If not, then I'm wondering where you are obtaining your information, if not from the media.

[lunchlady]

I attended two days of this trial when I visited beautiful Italy in the latter part of February.

My observations:

This jury seems to have made up their mind.

Beautiful Amanda sits there very stoic and smug.

Raf is very nervous. His nails are bitten all the way down and he nervously swivels in his chair.

Amanda has changed her story. All but one of her fingerprints was found in her own home. The house (murder scene) smelled of bleach...the maid testified that she did not use bleach.

Raf's claims that he was on his cell phone and computer on the night of the murder, have been disproven.

The US magazine reporter I sat with told me that Meridith's murder was brutal and that someone needs to pay.

Also, A & R have color coordinated their outfits each day.

CBS' 48 Hours was very biased. IMO

Interesting post. I find body language interesting although certainly not solid evidence. Why is Raf so nervous and Amanda so smug? Is it because he has a better grasp of the gravity of their situation? A better grasp of reality in general?

Color coordinated outfits? Do they have an avenue of communication? That seems very different from the US, where I think they restrict direct communication between defendants. That doesn't preclude family and attorneys as go-betweens though.

[FightOn]

I believe Amanda and Raf will be found GUILTY in the death of Meredith...because I believe they ARE GUILTY! Too many lies to be innocent.

Go to www.truejustice.org for some good background and fair reporting on the case.


- An "American" for Justice for Meredith Kercher

[Jester]

I believe Amanda and Raf will be found GUILTY in the death of Meredith...because I believe they ARE GUILTY! Too many lies to be innocent.

Go to www.truejustice.org for some good background and fair reporting on the case.


- An "American" for Justice for Meredith Kercher

Thanks for the link ... interesting summary of the facts.

[Jester]

On second thoughts, after having read through some of the arguments on that website, I think it's skewed in favor of them being guilty. The information on Raf's false statements is interesting, but the analysis of why Amanda did this or that is skewed, in my opinion.

[dgfred]

I believe Amanda and Raf will be found GUILTY in the death of Meredith...because I believe they ARE GUILTY! Too many lies to be innocent.

Go to www.truejustice.org for some good background and fair reporting on the case.


- An "American" for Justice for Meredith Kercher

Thanks for the link, enjoyed the reading and the nice pics of the area.

[tuscanskin]

Thanks for the first hand glimpse of what is going on. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that only 9 of her 10 fingerprints are in her house? That seems awfully strange given that she lived there, or that she had showered there just before reporting the murder.

Sorry I was so unclear on the fingerprints. The reporter I sat with said that while we were in court, the investigator testified that only one of Amanda's fingerprints was found in the house...on a glass. I guess one could assume from this is that the house was wiped of fingerprints.

[logbump]

It is so hard to follow this trial, but here is a snippet.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517591,00.html

[dgfred]

Who of the suspects would 'need' to clean up or change the crime scene?

Why were both Amanda's and Raf's phones turned off (on the night of the murder) from the evening until the next day? This had not happened
before.

Why would Amanda and Raf be outside the house with a bucket and mop and the washing machine running when the police arrived?

WHY all the lies? Not once, but multiple lies and changing stories.

How would Raf's DNA be all over the clasp of Meredith's bra?

Why would the bra be cut off AFTER she was dead or almost dead?

Why was the body moved?

Why was Amanda not more concerned after seeing blood and noticing Meredith's door was locked... Why not try to call her phone and see if it rang on the other side of the door?

Very interesting and curious indeed!

[dgfred]

OOOOPs, just read where washing machine was not running or warm...
but filled with clothes. Sorry about that.

[doctor_J]

Who of the suspects would 'need' to clean up or change the crime scene?

Why were both Amanda's and Raf's phones turned off (on the night of the murder) from the evening until the next day? This had not happened
before.

Why would Amanda and Raf be outside the house with a bucket and mop and the washing machine running when the police arrived?

WHY all the lies? Not once, but multiple lies and changing stories.

How would Raf's DNA be all over the clasp of Meredith's bra?

Why would the bra be cut off AFTER she was dead or almost dead?

Why was the body moved?

Why was Amanda not more concerned after seeing blood and noticing Meredith's door was locked... Why not try to call her phone and see if it rang on the other side of the door?

Very interesting and curious indeed!

Hey fred---I think that might be called guilt! BARD???? We'll see.

[doctor_J]

This thread title is offensive. It should be Merdith Kercher--Italian Nightmare, or just Amanda Knox.

[uplate]

no wonder so many feel amanda is innocent, the 48 hours expose on the case was the most baised, one-sided piece of 'journalism' that I have ever seen. I was Infuriated. The show progressed from being about a legitimate murder trial to being 'Amanda's ordeal'. Poor American girl innocently swallowed up in alien archaic justice system. At the very least, from the evidence I've seen, that this is a trial that needs to happen. Circumstantially, I believe she was involved.
Agree. They didn't even mention evidence of a clean-up, nor luminol/blood footprints matching the size of Amanda and Raf (not Rudy who is a much larger size). It started out stating Meredith was killed "in her room at the International University"...how can you get such a basic fact wrong? And if I recall correctly, it stated that they did not know each other, which again is just plain false. Rudy knew both Amanda and Meredith. Raf at the start of the trial said he had never met Rudy before, which may or may not be true.

Amanda and Raf have changed their stories too many times for me to believe that they had nothing to do with this murder. Rudy first claimed a knife-wielding Italian with brown hair tussled with him as Rudy exited the bathroom in response to hearing Meredith scream. At his trial he claimed that was Raf and that Amanda was present at the door. He exercised his right to remain silent at this trial. What else was he to say? He is hoping that these two will go down and perhaps he will fare better at his appeal.

[dgfred]

Anything new that anyone has heard or read???

[Xainia]

Anything new that anyone has heard or read???

Just that the guy who owns the house the murder was committed in is now selling tickets to it. How sick is that??

You can google the story.

[Jester]

Sorry I was so unclear on the fingerprints. The reporter I sat with said that while we were in court, the investigator testified that only one of Amanda's fingerprints was found in the house...on a glass. I guess one could assume from this is that the house was wiped of fingerprints.

Thanks. That does seem really strange.

[uplate]

Anything new that anyone has heard or read???The trial resumes next week with DNA evidence - no sessions this Friday or Saturday.

[dgfred]

Thanks for the update.

[logbump]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519470,00.html

[logbump]

footprint testimony
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519610,00.html

[iluvmua]

Do they have any DNA that links Amanda to the murder of Meredith?

[Nile]

From everything that I've read so far regarding this case, I completely agree with Snarkytart that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

There are major problems with most if not all the forensics tests pertaining to Amanda and Raffaele in this case and the eyewitnesses are anything but reliable. Add to this a Prosecutor who is blaming this crime on a satanic cult ritual and who himself is being prosecuted for abuse of power. Additionally, in Italy the Prosecutor controls what the Police Department investigates (which could unduly bias a case towards the Prosecution) unlike in the U.S. where the attorneys and police work independently of each other.

I believe that Rudy Guede is the sole murderer of Meredith Kercher. All the forensics tests definitively link Rudy to the crime scene and he's a known drug dealer who escaped to Germany right after the crime. I believe that the police coerced Rudy to name Amanda and Raffaele as accomplices (just like they did with Amanda in her interrogations when she named Patrick Lumumba as the murderer).

Rudy Guede was a drug dealer who regularly hung out near the victim's apartment and who could have easily followed her home and then raped, murdered and robbed her after gaining access to her apartment. This kind of crime sadly happens everyday in many parts of the world unlike satanic ritual killings.

I also want justice for the poor victim Meredith Kercher. She was an intelligent young woman who deserved to live rather than die at the hands of a monster. I believe that her murderer Rudy Guede should have gotten life in prison (or the death penalty) but I don't think that these are options in Italy which is sad:mad:.

[dgfred]

Rudi had never committed any violence of this nature in the past, maybe he had help or was 'tempted' in some way by others. Something
in Amanda's attitude and answers make Raf and her highly suspicious.

[lunchlady]

What a long trial process. Makes the US system seem rushed. Wonder how the leisurely pace affects the jury. Guess it gives them more time to digest all the evidence but it all exposes them to more outside influence.

[dgfred]

Seems like they handle different cases on different days, instead of finishing one and then starting another but I am not sure that this is the case.

[lovelaw]

Do they have any DNA that links Amanda to the murder of Meredith?

IIRC, they have some of her DNA on a knife....BUT...it was a household knife...so her DNA being on it could be explained away.

[lovelaw]

What a long trial process. Makes the US system seem rushed. Wonder how the leisurely pace affects the jury. Guess it gives them more time to digest all the evidence but it all exposes them to more outside influence.

I just heard that they will be taking a 2 MONTH hiatus from the trial...a summer break. :scared:RIDICULOUS!~

A fair trial??? I can't see how.

JMO

[dgfred]

You are right! What about someone that is completely innocent (which Amanda may be) having to spend a year and a half in jail plus time while they go on vacation? Right to speedy trial... not in Italy :thumbdown: .

The knife supposidly has Amanda's DNA on it, and it is a knife used by several... but that wouldn't explain Meredith's DNA on the tip. The footprint evidence is good 'IF' it does match Raf's shoes. Amanda's footprint(s) were also NEAR Meredith's room, but if she was in there earlier she might have just walked in some blood then... not sure if it is as relevent as Rafs.

[Nile]

dgfred,

I just wanted to comment on your last post regarding the forensics evidence.

In regards to the knife DNA, there was a trace of Amanda's DNA near the handle of the knife which one would expect given the fact that this knife was in Ms. Knox's boyfriend's kitchen and she had most likely handled it at some time during the past 2 weeks. The supposed trace of Meredith's DNA was on the side of the knife, not on the blade. Additionally, this particular DNA sample could belong to up to 50% of Italy's population.

In regards to Amanda and the footprint evidence, there was only a half footprint found and one cannot definitely identify someone's footprint like they can a fingerprint. The Prosecutor's forensics team is saying that the smaller footprint was PROBABLY Amanda's since the footprint was analyzed to be about shoe size 36-38 and Knox wears a size 37 shoe. They could only state that the footprints were probably Amanda's and the forensics team didn't take prints of the feet of the other flatmate's as part of the investigation. Additionally, luminal can react not only to blood, but also to the iron in fruit juice, rust or chlorophyll etc.

In regards to Raffaele Sollecito and the shoeprint evidence, the bloody shoeprints matched both Sollecito's and Guede's foot size—and they both wore the same style sneakers.

The prosecution had also earlier stated that many of the items in the house appeared to have cleaned up with bleach, but the truth is that almost all household cleaners sold in Italy contain bleach, so one can't conclude that the remnants of bleach were anything suspicious or related to the cleaning up of evidence.

Most if not all of the news pertaining to this case is released by the Prosecutor's office and it isn't generally verified by unbiased expert sources prior to release.

The field of forensics in Italy is years behind that of the U.S. What's scary is that this case and the lives of these 2 young individual's could be decided by an inadequate science.

[dgfred]

Thanks for clearing that stuff up Nile :thumbsup: . I know little 'facts' in this case... more of just things I have read and looked at. Most cases we discuss here I can find which side I am leaning to, this one I can not... still kind of confused :confused: of what the 'true' facts/evidence is in this crazy case. Thanks again for the info.

[logbump]

Of course, sloppy forensics.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519470,00.html

[lane99]

dgfred,
....The supposed trace of Meredith's DNA was on the side of the knife, not on the blade...

That's very interesting. What evidence to you have that the dna was not on the blade? That's contrary to everything I've read up to now.


...luminal can react not only to blood, but also to the iron in fruit juice, rust or chlorophyll etc...

Yes. Perhaps someone spilled a really big can of tomato juice.


...The field of forensics in Italy is years behind that of the U.S. What's scary is that this case and the lives of these 2 young individual's could be decided by an inadequate science.

Hmm, do you mean to suggest that Italian forensics are sufficient to convict a person like Rudy, but not good enough for people like Amanda and Raf?

Other than forensics (which you find unreliable), and self-incriminating statements to police (which I assume you also find unreliable, since Amanda has made them, as well), what is the smoking gun evidence that has you calling for Rudy to be put to death?

[Xainia]

dgfred,

The field of forensics in Italy is years behind that of the U.S.

Can you substantiate this statement?

TIA

[GossipGirl]

I've been looking for this case in the news lately and havent' found it. I have read some about it and I must say I lean totally towards their guilt.
So far it seems to me the investigation has been superb, tho different from that of the USA. They found DNA on a bra and matched poop in a toilet to the guy who fast-tracked his conviction. That's about as good as it gets here too, isn't it?

How long does this case go on for if it started in Jan? Are they in trial every day or are they on a break or something?
GG

[dgfred]

Only have trial once/twice a week and either now or soon they are taking a summer break :thumbdown: .

[Dunlurken]

I think she's guilty, or at least involved. She's right where she needs to be. In jail. And I'm really tired of her family saying.... "oh, she's such a sweet wonderful girl".

JMO.

[Xainia]

I think she's guilty, or at least involved. She's right where she needs to be. In jail. And I'm really tired of her family saying.... "oh, she's such a sweet wonderful girl".

JMO.

I have to agree.
I have always lent towards guilt.
The more we learn the more guilty I believe her to be.

Her family aren't going to say anything else so I discount what they say.

[iluvmua]

I think she's guilty, or at least involved. She's right where she needs to be. In jail. And I'm really tired of her family saying.... "oh, she's such a sweet wonderful girl".

JMO.

Yep, I agree Amanda belongs in jail for a LONG time. I'm tired of her friends and family defending her like she's this innocent little "Angel" who would never hurt anybody. They portray her like she's the victim in this case, Meredith is the ONLY victim.

I'm going to be upset if Amanda is found not guilty.

[Dunlurken]

Her tennis shoe print was found in the blood. That sealed it for me. JMO. GUILTY.

[iluvmua]

Her tennis shoe print was found in the blood. That sealed it for me. JMO. GUILTY.

Didn't Amanda and Meredith have two other roommates?
did their alibi's check out?

[iluvmua]

Evidence Against Amanda:

Bloody Footprint(s)
Lying to Police numerous times
Changing her story over and over
Amanda's DNA on the Knife Handle
Blaming former boss, Patrick for the murder


anything else I'm missing?

[iluvmua]

Has anybody read Amanda Knox's Prison Diary?

If not, here it is:
www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda-knox-diary/1.html

[Nile]

Evidence Against Amanda:

Bloody Footprint(s)
Lying to Police numerous times
Changing her story over and over
Amanda's DNA on the Knife Handle
Blaming former boss, Patrick for the murder


anything else I'm missing?


"Bloody Footprints":

While on the Nancy Grace show yesterday, Anne Bremner (a well known Seattle attorney) stated that the bloody footprints were found not to be blood prints but rather regular footprints in the flat.


"Amanda's DNA on the Knife Handle":

The knife in question was found NOT to be compatible with the actual murder weapon. In addition, the DNA found on (or near) the blade was not blood and was so small a sample that it could have belonged to 50%of all Italians.


"Lying to Police numerous times"
"Changing her story over and over"
"Blaming former boss, Patrick for the murder":

20 year old Amanda was interrogated for 15 hours without food or sleep by Italian police who were used to interrogating the Mafia. She spoke no Italian and only had a translator for a short time. The police at the time hadn't arrested Rudy Guede yet (as he was still hiding out in Germany) but they knew from evidence left at the crime scene, that a black man had been in the victim's room. From several sources, it was said that the Italian police (during the interrogation) coerced Amanda into stating that her boss Patrick Lumumba was one of the killers. She said that one of the police (interrogating her) actually hit her on the head to "make her remember things better" during those hours.

Most, if not all the "news" that comes out regarding this case is false and unverified and has been leaked out by the Prosecutor's office to the media. When you read these trial reports, you need to take them with a grain of salt or do some research on your own to find out the truth.

[iluvmua]

All of the evidence that I have heard, leads me to believe that Amanda was involved.

[iluvmua]

If Amanda is Innocent then:

1. Why Change your story over and over as to where you were the night of the murder?

2. They have DNA that links ALL three to the crime scene

3. Amanda's reactions to Meredith's murder makes absolutely not sense.

4. Most people would not be smiling and giggling if they were accused of a murder they did not commit.

5. If Amanda is innocent then WHY is she not upset, angry, protesting etc. that she is being accused of a murder in which she did not participate in?

[Nile]

If Amanda is Innocent then:

1. Why Change your story over and over as to where you were the night of the murder?

2. They have DNA that links ALL three to the crime scene

3. Amanda's reactions to Meredith's murder makes absolutely not sense.

4. Most people would not be smiling and giggling if they were accused of a murder they did not commit.

5. If Amanda is innocent then WHY is she not upset, angry, protesting etc. that she is being accused of a murder in which she did not participate in?



"1. Why Change your story over and over as to where you were the night of the murder?"

As I wrote earlier, Amanda Knox was interrogated for over 15 hours by Mafia interrogators without food or sleep. During this time she was coerced by the police to change her story when it didn't fit the police and Prosecutors crazy theories of what happened that night. In Italy, the Prosecutor's office has complete control over the work done by the Police and Detective departments in a court case. This makes for a very unfair system unlike the United States where the Police Department and the Attorney's work independently of each other.

"2. They have DNA that links ALL three to the crime scene."

Let me know what definitive DNA tests they have linking Amanda to this case.

"3. Amanda's reactions to Meredith's murder makes absolutely no sense."

It had earlier been reported that Amanda had been overtly callous and outspoken about the murder in front of Meredith's friends. If this report is even true, this type of behavior still doesn't indicate to me that Amanda was a sadistic killer. If she'd actually committed this horrible crime, why would she be bringing attention to herself with stupid and callous remarks. One would assume that she would try to keep the attention away from herself after this crime.

"4. Most people would not be smiling and giggling if they were accused of a murder they did not commit."

Everyone reacts differently to stressful situations. Amanda is a young and naive girl who might be in denial as to the seriousness of this case and to the fact that she might be imprisoned for life for something that she didn't do.

"5. If Amanda is innocent then WHY is she not upset, angry, protesting etc. that she is being accused of a murder in which she did not participate in?"

Amanda (like Raffaele) has protested her innocence several times during the trial and also in her diaries which she's been writing since she was imprisoned 15 months ago.

[Jester]

If Amanda is Innocent then:

1. Why Change your story over and over as to where you were the night of the murder?

2. They have DNA that links ALL three to the crime scene

3. Amanda's reactions to Meredith's murder makes absolutely not sense.

4. Most people would not be smiling and giggling if they were accused of a murder they did not commit.

5. If Amanda is innocent then WHY is she not upset, angry, protesting etc. that she is being accused of a murder in which she did not participate in?

Most people would not be taking the entire situation so lightly as to be doing cartwheels in the corridor of the police station while her new boyfriend was being interrogated. Was she oblivious?

[Jester]

<snipped for emphasis>

Amanda (like Raffaele) has protested her innocence several times during the trial and also in her diaries which she's been writing since she was imprisoned 15 months ago.

Wouldn't it be something if she were convicted, and a published diary revealed a girl in a woman's body, one who was completely oblivious to the seriousness of the situation, had nothing to do with the murder but was trying to hide drug use, had no attachment to her roommate of three weeks and, therefore, had no real emotional reaction to her murder? She was in brand new love, after all.

[Jester]

All of the evidence that I have heard, leads me to believe that Amanda was involved.

Still catching up about the DNA release. What there any concrete evidence about Meredith's blood and Rafael's DNA on the same knife?

[Jester]

I think the question is whether Meredith's blood was found on the knife at Raffael's apartment. That would be highly unusual. It's possible to place Amanda and Raffael together, and between the bra clasp with DNA and the knife in Raffael's apartment with Meredith's blood, it looks like Raffael was involved and the pair are guilty.

What do we know about that knife and DNA?

[Jester]

Has anybody read Amanda Knox's Prison Diary?

If not, here it is:
www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda-knox-diary/1.html

How in the world is she able to publish a diary from jail? Is it because she is not yet convicted?

[iluvmua]

Still catching up about the DNA release. What there any concrete evidence about Meredith's blood and Rafael's DNA on the same knife?

They positively identified Amanda's bloody footprint

[joolz]

Wouldn't it be something if she were convicted, and a published diary revealed a girl in a woman's body, one who was completely oblivious to the seriousness of the situation, had nothing to do with the murder but was trying to hide drug use, had no attachment to her roommate of three weeks and, therefore, had no real emotional reaction to her murder? She was in brand new love, after all.


"A girl in a woman's body?" She was a college student doing a year abroad and you think it's suddenly going to be revealed that she has the intellectual and emotional limits of an eight year old?:rolleyes:

[Jester]

"A girl in a woman's body?" She was a college student doing a year abroad and you think it's suddenly going to be revealed that she has the intellectual and emotional limits of an eight year old?:rolleyes:

Isn't it possible that she was incredibly naive? What mature, sensible woman does cartwheels in the Italian police station? Was she flirting with the police? What is wrong with her that she shows such poor judgment?

[Jester]

They positively identified Amanda's bloody footprint

Thanks. Is that in the bedroom, or at the scene?

[iluvmua]

Thanks. Is that in the bedroom, or at the scene?

Outside the door of Meredith's room; two footprints could be matched exactly to Raphael also.

[joolz]

Isn't it possible that she was incredibly naive? What mature, sensible woman does cartwheels in the Italian police station? Was she flirting with the police? What is wrong with her that she shows such poor judgment?

She could be incredibly naive, but from what I've read about her and from what I've read in her own words, I really don't think so. And I just can't imagine what could make a young woman immune to the horror of a murder in her own residence, even if she was not particularly attached to her roommate.

I would guess there is something wrong with her psychologically - her behavior was so incredibly inappropriate. But she was so incredibly callous that the (much over-used) description of narcissistic is what comes to mind, rather than naive. jmo

[iluvmua]

She could be incredibly naive, but from what I've read about her and from what I've read in her own words, I really don't think so. And I just can't imagine what could make a young woman immune to the horror of a murder in her own residence, even if she was not particularly attached to her roommate.

I would guess there is something wrong with her psychologically - her behavior was so incredibly inappropriate. But she was so incredibly callous that the (much over-used) description of narcissistic is what comes to mind, rather than naive. jmo

How can somebody have no feelings towards someone who was murdered?
esp. since they lived in the same house. it's very strange

Has Amanda even been seen crying about Meredith's death at all?

imo, Amanda thinks this is all one big joke; she's always smiling or laughing in court. Maybe this is a defense mechanism, because I bet deep down inside her heart (if she even has one) she's knows she's in BIG trouble.

[iluvmua]

Is it possible that Rudy and Raphael were pressuring Amanda to kill Meredith? and if she didn't they would kill her also?

[Jester]

Outside the door of Meredith's room; two footprints could be matched exactly to Raphael also.

Thanks. It's not looking good for them.

[Jester]

She could be incredibly naive, but from what I've read about her and from what I've read in her own words, I really don't think so. And I just can't imagine what could make a young woman immune to the horror of a murder in her own residence, even if she was not particularly attached to her roommate.

I would guess there is something wrong with her psychologically - her behavior was so incredibly inappropriate. But she was so incredibly callous that the (much over-used) description of narcissistic is what comes to mind, rather than naive. jmo

She could be just plain stupid. I studied in Italy and I would not mess with any level of the Italian police, wouldn't do cartwheels for them, wouldn't take everything so lightly.

[Nile]

I think the question is whether Meredith's blood was found on the knife at Raffael's apartment. That would be highly unusual. It's possible to place Amanda and Raffael together, and between the bra clasp with DNA and the knife in Raffael's apartment with Meredith's blood, it looks like Raffael was involved and the pair are guilty.

What do we know about that knife and DNA?

The knife in question (from Raffaele's kitchen) was found NOT to be compatible with the actual murder weapon. In addition, the DNA found on (or near) the blade was not blood and was so small a sample that it could have belonged to 50% of all Italians.

In regards to the bra clasp, the tiny clasp was lost and sitting on the floor of the crime scene bedroom for 46 days (and through 2 police searches) until it was recovered and found to have Raffaele Sollecito's DNA on it. Due to sloppy policework and the fact that it was missing for over a month, the defense said that there was a definite likelihood of cross-contamination.

[Nile]

Most people would not be taking the entire situation so lightly as to be doing cartwheels in the corridor of the police station while her new boyfriend was being interrogated. Was she oblivious?

Hi Jester,

From what I've read regarding this incident, Amanda was doing homework while waiting for Raffaele to be interrogated by police and her muscles started to become stiff and cramped. She decided to do some muscle stretches and toe touches to ease her symptoms and stress. A young forensics worker at the station was surprised that Amanda had such flexibility and she explained to him that she'd been a gymnast when she was younger. He asked her if she could do cartwheels, the splits and a backbend and she showed him.

Doesn't sound like suspicious behavior to me. Interacting with the young forensics guy and doing some stretches and cartwheels probably eased her muscle pain and stress. To some people that might sound odd but everyone's different.

[Nile]

Wouldn't it be something if she were convicted, and a published diary revealed a girl in a woman's body, one who was completely oblivious to the seriousness of the situation, had nothing to do with the murder but was trying to hide drug use, had no attachment to her roommate of three weeks and, therefore, had no real emotional reaction to her murder? She was in brand new love, after all.

I agree with your analysis. It makes much more sense than most of what's written regarding this case. I have read though from several sources that witnesses did claim that Amanda cried on several occasions after she'd found out that her roommate Meredith had died.

[Nile]

They positively identified Amanda's bloody footprint


While on the Nancy Grace show last Friday, Anne Bremner (a well known Seattle attorney) stated that the bloody footprints were found NOT TO BE BLOOD PRINTS but rather regular footprints in the apartment. It would be normal to find regular footprints of Amanda in her own home.

[Nile]

"A girl in a woman's body?" She was a college student doing a year abroad and you think it's suddenly going to be revealed that she has the intellectual and emotional limits of an eight year old?:rolleyes:


No one's saying that she's developmentally disabled:huh:.

She's probably a naive young woman who's somewhat immature and irrealistic about the seriousness of her predicament.

[iluvmua]

While on the Nancy Grace show last Friday, Anne Bremner (a well known Seattle attorney) stated that the bloody footprints were found NOT TO BE BLOOD PRINTS but rather regular footprints in the apartment. It would be normal to find regular footprints of Amanda in her own home.

No, they were Amanda's Bloody Footprints. Are you a relative or friend of Amanda? Amanda is just as guilty as Rudy and Raf. lock her up in prison where she belongs.

[Jester]

I agree with your analysis. It makes much more sense than most of what's written regarding this case. I have read though from several sources that witnesses did claim that Amanda cried on several occasions after she'd found out that her roommate Meredith had died.

I don't mean to sound callous but, personally speaking, I don't have much attachment or emotional investment in people I've known for only a few weeks. Given the brief history between Amanda and Meredith, I can understand Amanda experiencing shock, disbelief, and curiosity, but not necessarily a sense of personal loss.

If she was stretching because she'd been sitting for a long time, it makes a little more sense but still, it would have been more sensible to stick to simple calisthenics.

Because of the slow and intermittent release of information in this trial, I'm thinking I will have to wait until the book release to understand what really happened. Foot prints outside the bedroom doesn't necessarily mean much since there's an alternate explanation for Raf and Amanda having footprints in the area. Since the bra clasp was a significant piece of evidence, it's very surprising that it was misplaced for more than a month. The fact that it was misplaced, in my opinion, reduces its evidentiary value, as no one knows what happened with it while it was missing.

[Jester]

No, they were Amanda's Bloody Footprints. Are you a relative or friend of Amanda? Amanda is just as guilty as Rudy and Raf. lock her up in prison where she belongs.

Bloody footprints? Was there blood on the floor of the bathroom? Could it be transfer evidence from other blood in the apartment.

[iluvmua]

Bloody footprints? Was there blood on the floor of the bathroom? Could it be transfer evidence from other blood in the apartment.

Police found 13 traces of blood in the bathroom, including a 10 inch smear on the floor and numerous droplets of blood.

Amanda also said she took a shower. ummm..... taking a shower would be the LAST thing I would do if there was blood everywhere and my room mate was just killed.

Amanda is definitely an odd one that's for sure.

[Jester]

Police found 13 traces of blood in the bathroom, including a 10 inch smear on the floor and numerous droplets of blood.

Amanda also said she took a shower. ummm..... taking a shower would be the LAST thing I would do if there was blood everywhere and my room mate was just killed.

Amanda is definitely an odd one that's for sure.

It's really odd that Amanda would shower in such an unclean place.

[dgfred]

Police found 13 traces of blood in the bathroom, including a 10 inch smear on the floor and numerous droplets of blood.

Amanda also said she took a shower. ummm..... taking a shower would be the LAST thing I would do if there was blood everywhere and my room mate was just killed.

Amanda is definitely an odd one that's for sure.

Not to mention the unflushed toilet. Not many girls would shower with that momento in there and blood on the floor... odd indeed.

[dgfred]

After Amanda testifies, they are taking a two month break :unsure: ...
trial may go into next year. How sad that they cannot put a faster pace on this thing. The girl has been in jail all this time and also no closure for the families.

[lunchlady]

So slow. No right to a speedy trial in Italy. And I thought the US was overly slow.
Wonder if there's any AC in those jail cells. Italy is hot in the summer.

[mafitz701]

No, they were Amanda's Bloody Footprints. Are you a relative or friend of Amanda? Amanda is just as guilty as Rudy and Raf. lock her up in prison where she belongs.

Not true. The footprints they are saying were made by Amanda were found in the hallway outside of the bedroom and were not bloody. No blood whatsoever, no DNA to indicate they were bloody.

If you have different please provide the link. Just because some of us are not liking the evidence and not jumping on the "Guilty" bandwagon does not make us related to Amanda in anyway.

And more

The knife does not fit the knife that made the bloody impression on the sheet in Meredith's bedroom. This in itself proves it is highly unlikely to be the murder weapon.

Second, how in god's name can the crime lab miss a fragment of bra clasp that was found right under Meredith's bed so long after the crime?

[mafitz701]

Hmm, do you mean to suggest that Italian forensics are sufficient to convict a person like Rudy, but not good enough for people like Amanda and Raf?

Other than forensics (which you find unreliable), and self-incriminating statements to police (which I assume you also find unreliable, since Amanda has made them, as well), what is the smoking gun evidence that has you calling for Rudy to be put to death?


"Yes. Perhaps someone spilled a really big can of tomato juice."

Or perhaps she walked across the floor after it was mopped which would clearly explain why there were footprints through a mop pattern in the hallway.

"That's very interesting. What evidence to you have that the dna was not on the blade? That's contrary to everything I've read up to now."

For a DNA match a certain number of markers need to be identified in a sample. To find under five DNA markers in a sample and claim that you have a match is weak forensics evidence. It is equivalent to claiming that because a blood sample is A+ it must belong to the person because they are also A+.

"Hmm, do you mean to suggest that Italian forensics are sufficient to convict a person like Rudy, but not good enough for people like Amanda and Raf?"

This is the problem. Rudy left his skin cells in Meredith's body, his bloody handprint near Meredith's body. His feces in the toilet. Solid evidence to place him at the crime scene. What evidence is putting Raf or Amanda at the crime scene?

The DNA on a knife that does not match the bloody knife impression on the sheet of Meredith's bed, and does not have enough markers in common with Meredith or Amanda.

DNA on a bra clasp that was found on December 16th over a month after the crime, and also had the DNA of 3 other individuals on it, none of which were found to be related in anyway to this crime.

Rudy has nothing to lose in placing Amanda and Raf at the scene. He has everything to gain in pointing the finger at them. The major problem is that because LE totally bungled the evidence against Amanda and Raf, the evidence against Rudy is questionable, and it may well be strong in implicating him.

So you convict her based on her statements. Regardless of the fact that she was a 20 year old girl. She would not be the first to be convicted based on statements, but then as has been shown time and again in the US alone, a person can incriminate themselves during an interrogation and later be found to be completely innocent.

[*Spike*]

I dont think Amanda's guilty. JMO

[dgfred]

I dont think Amanda's guilty. JMO

Any particular reasons or just a feeling?

[*Spike*]

Any particular reasons or just a feeling?

i havent heard anything that says she did it. this case is flawed big time. she might be guilty but i dont think they are proving it at all. my real gut feeling is telling me she didnt do it but its JMO.

[lane99]

To claim the partial dna match from the knife is no more discriminating than blood typing is enough to make me skeptical of anything else you say. It is exceedingly unlikely the dna near the tip of the blade belongs to anyone on earth other than the poor victim, Ms. Kercher.

Although, granted, the more I learn about the evidence the guiltier Ms. Knox and the boyfriend look, by no means do I personally have enough info about this case to have reached a firm conclusion. However, I do have enough to have concluded many of her vocal supporters indulge themselves in flagrant untruths.

[iluvmua]

To claim the partial dna match from the knife is no more discriminating than blood typing is enough to make me skeptical of anything else you say. It is exceedingly unlikely the dna near the tip of the blade belongs to anyone on earth other than the poor victim, Ms. Kercher.

Although, granted, the more I learn about the evidence the guiltier Ms. Knox and the boyfriend look, by no means do I personally have enough info about this case to have reached a firm conclusion. However, I do have enough to have concluded many of her vocal supporters indulge themselves in flagrant untruths.

I agree, IMO Amanda is Guilty.

[iluvmua]

Not true. The footprints they are saying were made by Amanda were found in the hallway outside of the bedroom and were not bloody. No blood whatsoever, no DNA to indicate they were bloody.

If you have different please provide the link. Just because some of us are not liking the evidence and not jumping on the "Guilty" bandwagon does not make us related to Amanda in anyway.

And more

The knife does not fit the knife that made the bloody impression on the sheet in Meredith's bedroom. This in itself proves it is highly unlikely to be the murder weapon.

Second, how in god's name can the crime lab miss a fragment of bra clasp that was found right under Meredith's bed so long after the crime?

really? no bloody footprints ? every news article I have read say that there were Bloody footprints at the crime scene and that they were Amanda's.

Even the Seattle papers are reporting it.

Are you suggesting that Raf and Rudy are the only ones responsible for Meredith's death and that Amanda play no part what so ever in Meredith's murder?


Because I for one, think she is Guilty of at least some part in the murder.

If there is Evidence that links Raf and Rudy to the crime scene then there is Evidence to link Amanda too.

[dgfred]

I think the 'bloody' footprints were of shoes that 'may' have been Rafs.
I think the 'other' footprints were said to be Amanda's, but they were not in blood and think they 'could' have been made during the murder.
I may be mistaken, I will have to go back and read the links again.

[iluvmua]

I think the 'bloody' footprints were of shoes that 'may' have been Rafs.
I think the 'other' footprints were said to be Amanda's, but they were not in blood and think they 'could' have been made during the murder.
I may be mistaken, I will have to go back and read the links again.

This whole case is confusing

When is the trial going to wrap up?

[iluvmua]

I think the 'bloody' footprints were of shoes that 'may' have been Rafs.
I think the 'other' footprints were said to be Amanda's, but they were not in blood and think they 'could' have been made during the murder.
I may be mistaken, I will have to go back and read the links again.

www.komonews.com/news/44638487.html

www.seattlepi.com/local/406059_knox09.html?source=mypi

I'll see if I can find other links

[grammie/va]

This whole case is confusing

When is the trial going to wrap up?

I agree this whole case and trial are confusing. Hard to find any updates on what is going on in the trial, and there arte so many stops and staarts with it also.
Makes me thankful for the American justice system!!!

[mafitz701]

To claim the partial dna match from the knife is no more discriminating than blood typing is enough to make me skeptical of anything else you say. It is exceedingly unlikely the dna near the tip of the blade belongs to anyone on earth other than the poor victim, Ms. Kercher.

Although, granted, the more I learn about the evidence the guiltier Ms. Knox and the boyfriend look, by no means do I personally have enough info about this case to have reached a firm conclusion. However, I do have enough to have concluded many of her vocal supporters indulge themselves in flagrant untruths.


Trifling. To get a DNA match you should have more than one or two markers in common. That you do not understand why I differentiate their so-called match with that of a blood typing is because it was not a full DNA match. The DNA they found showed quite specifically that the donor had a marker in common with the victim. It does not show a full match to being Amanda or Meredith.

The other issue is still very much the fact that the knife does not fit the bloody impression the murder knife left on the sheet next to the bed.

Quite simple actually.

[mafitz701]

really? no bloody footprints ? every news article I have read say that there were Bloody footprints at the crime scene and that they were Amanda's.

Even the Seattle papers are reporting it.

Are you suggesting that Raf and Rudy are the only ones responsible for Meredith's death and that Amanda play no part what so ever in Meredith's murder?


Because I for one, think she is Guilty of at least some part in the murder.

If there is Evidence that links Raf and Rudy to the crime scene then there is Evidence to link Amanda too.

No you said Amanda left bloody footprints, but the footprints they said were from Amanda were not bloody prints they were prints made on a floor that was found to have no blood. It had swirl patterns that looked to be from a mop and footprints.

[mafitz701]

The footprint on the bath mat was supposed to have been from Raf?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SPfpdbLGpnI/AAAAAAAAAwA/FtDofzxUU0o/s1600-h/Impronta+tappetino.JPG

From the forensics report:

Translated (I provided the link way back on the other thread)

"The bath mat footprint is compatible with Sollecito's right foot with a conclusion of probable identity."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SPWIPpBN-nI/AAAAAAAAAtY/Sm0rxky5vfc/s1600-h/Sangue+letto+uacv+1.jpg

The knife impression.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SPWKPx_FNFI/AAAAAAAAAtg/otfGWWyzIpg/s1600-h/impronta+letto-coltello+1.jpg

The knife they now say is the murder weapon being compared to the bloody sheet impression.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SPYeckq_RUI/AAAAAAAAAu4/4X4WffzdztM/s1600-h/Coltello+sovrapposizione+0.JPG

The broken window still befuddles me because of this picture of it:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SLWZ4kGFI0I/AAAAAAAAAnM/Sy85PGvZ7xQ/s1600-h/filomena+room.jpg

The DNA findings on the knife the actual DNA document comparing Meredith's blood to the DNA sample taken from the knife:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/05/finding-36-and-other-catastrophies-part.html

More on Raf's footprint and the bathmat:

The sample taken from LE from Raf to compare to the bathmat:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/SgctGsKdlxI/AAAAAAAABKM/u2lellbtun4/s1600-h/Impronta+Sollecito+dx.bmp

and the bathmat:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mqKZSZYw_HQ/Sgct8CeP-XI/AAAAAAAABKU/JjdObUdW4Q0/s1600-h/Impronta+tappetino.bmp

[lane99]

...That you do not understand why I differentiate their so-called match with that of a blood typing is because it was not a full DNA match....

What you said was quite transparent and no more difficult to understand than the motives of those attempting to spread misinformation on Amanda's behalf.

So I understood it just fine, thanks (hence my use of the word "partial" dna match). I was merely pointing out, as inconvenient as it may be to the home team, that what you said was untrue.



...The other issue is still very much the fact that the knife does not fit the bloody impression the murder knife left on the sheet next to the bed.

Quite simple actually.

Or, perhaps, simpleminded.

The bloody impression of what indeed appears to be a knife will have been a second knife used in the brutal crime. Considering there are unmistakable remnants of more than one attacker, the idea of at least two weapons used shouldn't be that difficult to wrap one's head around.

It is the double dna knife, found at Raf's home, that the prosecution suggests may be the murder weapon. Not the bloody impression knife.

[mafitz701]

What you said was quite transparent and no more difficult to understand than the motives of those attempting to spread misinformation on Amanda's behalf.

So I understood it just fine, thanks (hence my use of the word "partial" dna match). I was merely pointing out, as inconvenient as it may be to the home team, that what you said was untrue.





Or, perhaps, simpleminded.

The bloody impression of what indeed appears to be a knife will have been a second knife used in the brutal crime. Considering there are unmistakable remnants of more than one attacker, the idea of at least two weapons used shouldn't be that difficult to wrap one's head around.

It is the double dna knife, found at Raf's home, that the prosecution suggests may be the murder weapon. Not the bloody impression knife.


On the contrary transparent is when certain posters try to attack or belittle anyone who dares not agree with their position.

[Jester]

What you said was quite transparent and no more difficult to understand than the motives of those attempting to spread misinformation on Amanda's behalf.

So I understood it just fine, thanks (hence my use of the word "partial" dna match). I was merely pointing out, as inconvenient as it may be to the home team, that what you said was untrue.





Or, perhaps, simpleminded.

The bloody impression of what indeed appears to be a knife will have been a second knife used in the brutal crime. Considering there are unmistakable remnants of more than one attacker, the idea of at least two weapons used shouldn't be that difficult to wrap one's head around.

It is the double dna knife, found at Raf's home, that the prosecution suggests may be the murder weapon. Not the bloody impression knife.

I wish I had time to read all the case details, but I don't. I understand that DNA evidence is being released. Without debating whether DNA evidence is valid, what are the conclusions of the experts? Have they said that the DNA on the knife matches someone? I can't seem to find that info anywhere.

TIA

[lane99]

I wish I had time to read all the case details, but I don't...


And I do??

Ok, Jester. Just this once, for you :tongueside:


The forensic experts have stated that without essentially any doubt the dna near the handle end of the knife belongs to Amanda Knox. And, actually, her defense does not even dispute that it is. So we can take it as fact.

With regard to the dna near the tip of the blade, it's correct that it yielded a partial, not a complete dna profile. This is the grain of truth that Amanda's distorters use to try and muddy the waters. And the information the partial profile provided does not, it's true, allow the experts to say with ABSOLUTE certainty it belongs to Meridith. But they can say with VIRTUAL certainty that it belongs to her. And the odds against it belonging to anyone other than Meridith are staggeringly low.

Interestingly, Raf, the boyfriend, has written that if the dna on the blade belongs to the victim, it must be because he accidentally pricked her with it one time while he was cooking with her and Amanda. Uh-huh.

[Pat]

For those interested, a "blog" piece on this case. IMO, Mr. Egan is far from being a disinterested writer. He's from Seattle and I am willing to bet has some kind of ties to the Knox family, given his prose.

I'm posting the link because of the comments...there are some very educated and informed people who evidently have been following this case. Their comments make for very interesting reading.

http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/an-innocent-abroad/?apage=3#comments

[n/t]

Is Amanda Knox going to testify Friday (June 11)? If so, will there be more press coverage?

IMO, it's not a good idea for her to testify. However, I'm not a lawyer and certainly know nothing of Italian law. But, AK's attorney is so I have to believe.

All the pictures and reports of Amanda Knox in the courtroom paint her as smug and arrogant. This will not play well in front of the jury, IMO.

As far as the facts of the case, few have been reported in open media. I wish there was more, but there isn't. Interesting that US msm has not been more intrusive. This case has all the elements they generally latch on to immediately. Pretty, sweet looking defendant plus the sex and drugs.


Yes, she's testifying tomorrow and then court adjourns for 2 months until the fall.

Very interesting information regarding the Italian justice system from Lisa Bloom who has been covering the case.

The defendent can lie on the stand (and not be charged with perjury), the defendant can refuse to answer questions, the defendant can be asked questions by the judge.

[n/t]

I thought you could do this in the US too. Defendants lie all the time. That's what the trial is for. Can't Judges ask questions in the US? We also have the 5th.

Where did you hear Lisa Bloom talking about this? Sounds interesting.

On HLN with Mike Galanos. The defendant can lie under oath and not be charged with perjury. I don't think you have that in the US.

As for pleading the 5th., isn't that before a defendant takes the stand under oath? In this case, when she's on the stand, she can answer some questions and refuse others.

I don't think a judge can ask a defendant questions at a jury trial in the US.

Too bad they don't have HLN transcripts online. It was very interesting.

[dgfred]

Is Amanda Knox going to testify Friday (June 11)? If so, will there be more press coverage?

IMO, it's not a good idea for her to testify. However, I'm not a lawyer and certainly know nothing of Italian law. But, AK's attorney is so I have to believe.

All the pictures and reports of Amanda Knox in the courtroom paint her as smug and arrogant. This will not play well in front of the jury, IMO.

As far as the facts of the case, few have been reported in open media. I wish there was more, but there isn't. Interesting that US msm has not been more intrusive. This case has all the elements they generally latch on to immediately. Pretty, sweet looking defendant plus the sex and drugs.

The 'jury' is an eight judge panel I think, but you are probably right about the 'not play well' part even for the judges. I believe the media is not so into this case because it is taking soooo long and actual information is hard to come by and the info that is released seems to be able to be interpreted positive/negative for each side.

[Jester]

And I do??

Ok, Jester. Just this once, for you :tongueside:


The forensic experts have stated that without essentially any doubt the dna near the handle end of the knife belongs to Amanda Knox. And, actually, her defense does not even dispute that it is. So we can take it as fact.

With regard to the dna near the tip of the blade, it's correct that it yielded a partial, not a complete dna profile. This is the grain of truth that Amanda's distorters use to try and muddy the waters. And the information the partial profile provided does not, it's true, allow the experts to say with ABSOLUTE certainty it belongs to Meridith. But they can say with VIRTUAL certainty that it belongs to her. And the odds against it belonging to anyone other than Meridith are staggeringly low.

Interestingly, Raf, the boyfriend, has written that if the dna on the blade belongs to the victim, it must be because he accidentally pricked her with it one time while he was cooking with her and Amanda. Uh-huh.

Thank you. I did read the link with illustrations of DNA results, but it meant nothing to me. The discussion that followed also meant nothing to me because it appeared to be a layman's argument against the validity of DNA ... and that's just a waste of space. If the experts say it's a 1/(few million) chance that it belongs to anyone else, then it must belong to Meredith.

A knife with Meredith's blood in Raf's apartment has no explanation. Isn't Raf into knives? It makes sense that after using it in a murder he was unable to part with it. It makes no sense that Meredith had dinner at Raf's apartment when he and Amanda had only dated a couple of times.

[dgfred]

Seems Raf should have just kept quiet, since every explanation he gives gets him into deeper trouble... same for Amanda. 'I know nothing' should have been their response to everything.

[Jaxnoeny]

And I do??

Ok, Jester. Just this once, for you :tongueside:


The forensic experts have stated that without essentially any doubt the dna near the handle end of the knife belongs to Amanda Knox. And, actually, her defense does not even dispute that it is. So we can take it as fact.



First I want to say I don't know if Amanda is guilty or not. :unsure: I haven't really followed this case close enough to form an opinion. I have just been reading the boards and thought about the fact that her DNA is on a knive in a house where she lived wouldn't really be significant IMO. I can't tell you how many times I have cut myself while cooking. If someone broke in my house (not saying that WAS the case here) and killed someone my DNA could possibly be on the knife also. I am sure there is much more evidence in this case.

[dgfred]

Problem here is the evidence is so mixed up that it sometimes points in opposite directions and is open to each person interpretations. Eye witnesses are confused or came out at a much later time leaving doubts with each of them.

[dgfred]

I believe she stated she was high before the questioning, so answers might have been off. She also said she was bullied, pressured and called a liar during the questioning too... so she thought she was telling them what they wanted to hear. I think she should have just testified that she was scared and alone... and doesn't know really why or what she said at that time (sort of like in shock).
Every time she tries to explain something, she drops deeper into the hole she has been digging.
Also cameras will not be allowed when questions regarding the 'sexual aspect' of the prosecution's case.

[dgfred]

I don't know how my previous post moved ahead of yours :confused: ,
since I was responding to your post... weird.

[dgfred]

It is my understanding that Amanda Knox took the stand either today or yesterday at her murder trial and that TV cameras were allowed in court for her testimony only, not the rest of the trial. Anybody hear anything more than what I've stated. I'd be interested in hearing what she actually testified to.

See previous two post???? What the?

[arbour36]

It is my understanding that Amanda Knox took the stand either today or yesterday at her murder trial and that TV cameras were allowed in court for her testimony only, not the rest of the trial. Anybody hear anything more than what I've stated. I'd be interested in hearing what she actually testified to.

[n/t]

Here's some of the testimony.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8096980.stm

For those who questioned whether or not she had a shower after seeing blood......here is her testimony:

"I went to my room and changed, went to the bathroom and saw spots of blood there," she told the packed courtroom.

"I had a shower and on the way back to my room I saw blood on the floor. I thought: 'Hm, strange'."

[n/t]

More testimony....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/5517689/Amanda-Knox-had-sex-and-smoked-cannabis-on-night-of-Meredith-Kercher-murder.html

[n/t]

This is the Daily Mail....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1192548/I-feared-Aids-sex-seven-lovers-Foxy-Knoxy-takes-stand-Meredith-murder.html

[moondance]

i read her jail diary. i wonder how it got published online- also, marijuana alone doesn t usually cause such an impairment that you would forget a major event like murder. been following since the start and still can t decide-

[*Spike*]

It is my understanding that Amanda Knox took the stand either today or yesterday at her murder trial and that TV cameras were allowed in court for her testimony only, not the rest of the trial. Anybody hear anything more than what I've stated. I'd be interested in hearing what she actually testified to.

yeah i would like to hear her whole testimony also & in english.

[worried]

i read her jail diary. i wonder how it got published online- also, marijuana alone doesn t usually cause such an impairment that you would forget a major event like murder. been following since the start and still can t decide-

I am with you moondance. This case is so strange. The strangest thing for me has been the way that Amanda has acted. I know that people say all the time that "not everyone reacts the same under duress". However, her total lack of emotion in regards to the murder, the charges against her, etc etc is bad enough. She is just so flippant, that she appears cold and uncaring. Laughing and kissing and doing cartwheels throughout the course of this ordeal is making me really question whether she is either A. a psycopath B. on street drugs much heavier than pot C. on a prescribed medication that makes her appear giddy or D. guilty. I am still trying to remain open minded but it is her actions, not the evidence they proclaim to have against her that I am having a hard time with. JMO

[n/t]

Knox takes stand for second day

INSIDE COURT

Duncan Kennedy, in Perugia
It was a more casually dressed Amanda Knox who has taken the stand for a second day. She is wearing jeans and a white blouse.

The questioning has been started by the prosecuting magistrate, Giuliano Mignini, a thick-set man who has been pressing the attacks against Amanda Knox for the past five months.

Amanda Knox's supporters don't like Mr Mignini. They think he is not a fair prosecutor.

But he has certainly begun his cross examination with some direct questions and there've been some raised voices.

He could yet question her about her whereabouts on the night Meredith Kercher died and the forensic evidence against her.

Amanda is again speaking in Italian, she wasn't happy with her translator yesterday and has decided her Italian is good enough to take on the lawyers.

Her father and her defence team say they felt she did well in the witness box yesterday. Today will be just as testing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8098607.stm

[n/t]

Amanda Knox warned by police that she would spend 30 years in prison

Amanda Knox was warned by Italian police that she would be sent to prison for 30 years if she did not tell the truth over the murder of her British flatmate Meredith Kercher, a court has heard.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/5522781/Amanda-Knox-was-warned-by-police-that-she-would-spend-30-years-in-prison.html

[n/t]

Nancy Grace transcripts.



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0906/12/ng.01.html

[n/t]

Prosecutor grills US student

http://www.news24.com/Content/World/News/1073/81649151f61a457dbef29465e4de4f28/13-06-2009%2012-06/Prosecutor_grills_US_student_


I'm sorry but I don't get this part at all. Why would she make something up and implicate someone else? How can you be "led to believe". She started to imagine a kind of movie???? :scared:It doesn't make sense to me.




Knox said she became so confused after "a steady crescendo ... of 'I don't know,' 'you're a stupid liar,' 'maybes,' and 'imagines' that ... I was led to believe I had forgotten things."

She added: "When I said 'Patrick' I actually started to imagine a kind of movie, images that could have explained the situation, Patrick's face, then (Perugia's) Grimana square, then my house" on the night of the murder.

[n/t]

I understand the family trying to defend her but perhaps these kind of admissions make Amanda look guilty, imo. I'm not buying this story that she was picking at her ear.

---

JANET HUFF, AMANDA KNOX`S AUNT: Well, the evidence so far has always been kind of flimsy. There really isn`t anything proving Amanda has done anything. She`s had no motive. There`s nothing inside Meredith`s room that showed she was ever inside there. There`s tons of DNA evidence and fingerprint evidence on Rudy. But nothing showing Amanda was even in the room.

Yes, there might have been a little bit of blood in the sink. But that was -- it might have been mixed because they shared an apartment. Amanda just had her ear pierced and was picking at it that morning. So yes, she had a little bit of blood in the sink from herself that might have gotten mix in there with some of Meredith`s DNA.

There`s just so much stuff that she`s been contrived and twisted into making her look guilty, but there`s no motive and no real damning evidence against her.

[n/t]

I am with you moondance. This case is so strange. The strangest thing for me has been the way that Amanda has acted. I know that people say all the time that "not everyone reacts the same under duress". However, her total lack of emotion in regards to the murder, the charges against her, etc etc is bad enough. She is just so flippant, that she appears cold and uncaring. Laughing and kissing and doing cartwheels throughout the course of this ordeal is making me really question whether she is either A. a psycopath B. on street drugs much heavier than pot C. on a prescribed medication that makes her appear giddy or D. guilty. I am still trying to remain open minded but it is her actions, not the evidence they proclaim to have against her that I am having a hard time with. JMO

Very bizarre behaviour. If she was so afraid of the cops, why was she doing cartwheels at the police station? :unsure:

[RayStar]

I wonder where the high on marijuana excuse came from. It sounds like the prosecutor is doing his job. I'm not sure if it is/was a wise decision to let the translator go.

[n/t]

I wonder where the high on marijuana excuse came from. It sounds like the prosecutor is doing his job. I'm not sure if it is/was a wise decision to let the translator go.

Apparently, Amanda is fluent in Italian but I do question her motive to let the translator go.

In my opinion, the reason she chose to do so today was because the "tough" questions from the prosecutor would be asked involving her behaviour on the night of the murder. Some of the things she probably didn't want her parents and family members to understand until her testimony is over or she could later claim she didn't understand the questions being asked. Who knows.

I don't know if she was involved in this murder because I can't base her innocence or guilt on media reports. I'm not there in that courtroom listening to testimony. But I do think she's very conniving and we can see by some of her statements how manipulative she is with what she's telling family members. The pierced ears/blood thing makes absolutely no sense but her family believes her. The police beating her but yet she does cartwheels in front of them is another weird inconsistency to her statements but again, her family believes she was mistreated. Her reasons for writing that 5 page letter makes absolutely no sense. She was "imagining" a movie?? SAY WHAT?

The fact that she accused her former employer as the murderer is quite telling. She either was involved or she was/is covering for someone.

If she's covering for Sollecito, she's stupid stupid stupid.

[iluvmua]

Very bizarre behaviour. If she was so afraid of the cops, why was she doing cartwheels at the police station? :unsure:

Amanda was doing Spilts and Cartwheels because somebody asked her to.

If my friend was killed I would NOT be doing the splits and cartwheels just because somebody asked me to.

[iluvmua]

Is it possible that Rudy was waiting for Meredith, he attacks and kills her and then Amanda and Raf come home from Raf's Apartment and finds Meredith dead in her room and they walk all over the crime scene and that is why Raf's DNA was found in Meredith's and and Amanda's DNA was found outside of Meredith's room?

[n/t]

Amanda was doing Spilts and Cartwheels because somebody asked her to.

If my friend was killed I would NOT be doing the splits and cartwheels just because somebody asked me to.

Who asked her to do cartwheels? The cops?

[n/t]

Is it possible that Rudy was waiting for Meredith, he attacks and kills her and then Amanda and Raf come home from Raf's Apartment and finds Meredith dead in her room and they walk all over the crime scene and that is why Raf's DNA was found in Meredith's and and Amanda's DNA was found outside of Meredith's room?

Possible but I don't believe that's what was testified. Didn't she go home alone, notices the door open, walks in anyway, sees blood in the bathroom but doesn't make anything out of it, takes a shower, sees more blood and then allegedly calls Sollecito. Then she proceeds to call her her friends and they're the ones who knocked down the door to Meredith's room and found her body.

That's how I understand it.

[aubrey04]

I am with you moondance. This case is so strange. The strangest thing for me has been the way that Amanda has acted. I know that people say all the time that "not everyone reacts the same under duress". However, her total lack of emotion in regards to the murder, the charges against her, etc etc is bad enough. She is just so flippant, that she appears cold and uncaring. Laughing and kissing and doing cartwheels throughout the course of this ordeal is making me really question whether she is either A. a psycopath B. on street drugs much heavier than pot C. on a prescribed medication that makes her appear giddy or D. guilty. I am still trying to remain open minded but it is her actions, not the evidence they proclaim to have against her that I am having a hard time with. JMO

Her behavior is beyond odd. It reminds me of how the Manson girls were during their trial. I don't know if she's guilty, but it sure seems like she is to me. I did watch the Dateline (I think Dateline?) episode about the case where it spent a lot of time on her side of the story and I started to waver in my opinion. But now that I am seeing so much inconsistency and her bizarre behavior - it just doesn't add up.

I would have loved to have been able to watch this trial (in English though) to see if I could convict her though, because at this point - I am not sure I could "beyond a reasonable doubt" but my gut tells me she's guilty as charged.

I hope the jurors have more clarity and wisdom on the case. It is hard to judge how a court case is going based on media reports though - we all know how things get spun based on the writer's opinion. Short paragraphs which outline hours of testimony never really tell the entire story when it comes to criminal trials.

This is a very interesting case indeed.

[Jester]

Listening to Amanda's relatives on NG, I thought they were desperately grasping at straws. Their comments did not explain anything.

Another point NG made, that I found interesting, was about the bra clasp. It was collected much later than the rest of the evidence, and Raf's DNA is on it. The defense alleges cross-contamination, but how did it get cross contaminated when it was collected at a completely different time? Is the defense alleging that the police, the prosecution, and the lab are corrupt?

[iluvmua]

How do appeals work in the Italian court system?

Amanda's family says that if she is found Guilty ( which I think she will be) they will automatically appeal her sentence.

[iluvmua]

Listening to Amanda's relatives on NG, I thought they were desperately grasping at straws. Their comments did not explain anything.

Another point NG made, that I found interesting, was about the bra clasp. It was collected much later than the rest of the evidence, and Raf's DNA is on it. The defense alleges cross-contamination, but how did it get cross contaminated when it was collected at a completely different time? Is the defense alleging that the police, the prosecution, and the lab are corrupt?


What are they saying about Amanda? ( her relatives)

[Jester]

What are they saying about Amanda? ( her relatives)

The transcript is here: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0906/12/ng.01.html

This, for example, sounds too much like grasping to explain the facts that implicate Amanda:

"But nothing showing Amanda was even in the room.

Yes, there might have been a little bit of blood in the sink. But that was -- it might have been mixed because they shared an apartment. Amanda just had her ear pierced and was picking at it that morning. So yes, she had a little bit of blood in the sink from herself that might have gotten mix in there with some of Meredith`s DNA."

[*Spike*]

i think the guy who was already found guilty & who is serving 30 yrs is the one & only one that did the murder. just my own feelings & thoughts & JMO.

[n/t]

Lawyer challenges Knox testimony

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8098607.stm

She does a lot of imagining.:unsure:

--------

Mr Maresca also questioned Miss Knox about her claim that Miss Kercher had suffered a slow death.

Miss Knox replied that she based this on what she had heard from others and what she imagined must have happened to her housemate.


Also, this of course is based on media reports but does she contradict herself here:

She also denied previously meeting the man convicted in October of murder and sexual violence in the same case.

and then she says:

During Saturday's hearing, Miss Knox denied being friends with Mr Guede, but said she had met him three times.


This to me is the most disturbing of all the testimony......

For a second time, Miss Knox, who had been on a student exchange from Seattle's University of Washington, described how she learned Miss Kercher had died.

"When I got home, I found it strange the door was open but I didn't know what to think," she said. "I called 'Is anybody there?"'

She said the room of another of her housemates, Filomena Romanelli, was in "chaos".

"I saw clothes on the floor. I saw the window was broken. I wondered what had happened.

"Meredith's door was locked but this didn't alarm me. I was only alarmed when I called her and she didn't answer."



She was alarmed but went ahead and had a shower anyway??? Broken window, room in chaos, blood spots in the sink and floor??? Doesn't make sense.

[n/t]

More testimony info.....

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/407194.html

Knox also gave some key first-person details about the crime scene the morning she arrived to take a shower at the house she shared with Kercher. She told the judge that she had not seen any blood in the bathroom the day before Kercher's death -- only the morning after. Forensic police have testified about finding mixed DNA samples of Kercher and Knox's blood on the bidet, sink and a Q-tips box. Knox testified that she had cleaned her ears with a Q-tip that morning, and had recent piercings, one of which was infected.

The judge also asked whether Sollecito's apartment had smelled of bleach (no) and what she was wearing the morning Kercher's body was found. Sollecito's attorney, Giulia Bongiorno also questioned Knox about being led in and out of the crime scene, which defense lawyers maintain was inadvertently contaminated. She also asked Knox to describe how she hopped and scooted on the mat from the bathroom to her bedroom to get a towel. Forensic police say a bloody half footprint found at the scene is compatible with Sollecito's. Knox said she saw some blood and thought it strange, but didn't think it was a footprint. She figured one of her roommates had been having menstrual issues.

[n/t]

It's been mentioned that they were high on marijuana but I'm wondering if a more potent drug was used?

Could Sollecito have given Amanda a kind of drug that made her black out and that's why she can't remember being there but she has these "imagining" types of episodes....almost like flashbacks?

I don't know anything about drugs so please forgive my ignorance on the topic.

Would anyone know what type of drug could've been ingested to cause something like this? Just a theory.

[Jester]

More testimony info.....

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/407194.html

Knox also gave some key first-person details about the crime scene the morning she arrived to take a shower at the house she shared with Kercher. She told the judge that she had not seen any blood in the bathroom the day before Kercher's death -- only the morning after. Forensic police have testified about finding mixed DNA samples of Kercher and Knox's blood on the bidet, sink and a Q-tips box. Knox testified that she had cleaned her ears with a Q-tip that morning, and had recent piercings, one of which was infected.

The judge also asked whether Sollecito's apartment had smelled of bleach (no) and what she was wearing the morning Kercher's body was found. Sollecito's attorney, Giulia Bongiorno also questioned Knox about being led in and out of the crime scene, which defense lawyers maintain was inadvertently contaminated. She also asked Knox to describe how she hopped and scooted on the mat from the bathroom to her bedroom to get a towel. Forensic police say a bloody half footprint found at the scene is compatible with Sollecito's. Knox said she saw some blood and thought it strange, but didn't think it was a footprint. She figured one of her roommates had been having menstrual issues.

Blood in the sink, a mix of both Meredith and Amanda, is rather suspicious. The story that Amanda saw blood in the bathroom, then added some of her own blood to the sink because a piercing was infected, seems very strange to me. If she was using the sink, and there was blood in it, wouldn't it be normal to clean it? Do we know if this was visible blood? I don't have pierced ears, so I don't know whether infected piercing produce a lot of blood, but I don't really see how it could have dripped into the sink. If the pierced ear was dripping blood, it should be on her shirt collars, and pretty much everywhere, not just in the sink mixed with Meredith's DNA.

[iluvmua]

Blood in the sink, a mix of both Meredith and Amanda, is rather suspicious. The story that Amanda saw blood in the bathroom, then added some of her own blood to the sink because a piercing was infected, seems very strange to me. If she was using the sink, and there was blood in it, wouldn't it be normal to clean it? Do we know if this was visible blood? I don't have pierced ears, so I don't know whether infected piercing produce a lot of blood, but I don't really see how it could have dripped into the sink. If the pierced ear was dripping blood, it should be on her shirt collars, and pretty much everywhere, not just in the sink mixed with Meredith's DNA.


I don't think an infected ear piercing would produce a lot of blood;

I believe that somebody is lying.

Of course friends and relatives are trying to cover Amanda's butt so she will not be sent to prison for 30 years.

[Deannalynn]

I am with you moondance. This case is so strange. The strangest thing for me has been the way that Amanda has acted. I know that people say all the time that "not everyone reacts the same under duress". However, her total lack of emotion in regards to the murder, the charges against her, etc etc is bad enough. She is just so flippant, that she appears cold and uncaring. Laughing and kissing and doing cartwheels throughout the course of this ordeal is making me really question whether she is either A. a psycopath B. on street drugs much heavier than pot C. on a prescribed medication that makes her appear giddy or D. guilty. I am still trying to remain open minded but it is her actions, not the evidence they proclaim to have against her that I am having a hard time with. JMO

Or "E" NOT guilty. Just sayin:huh:
JMO

[moondance]

they didn t go after the pub owner like they are going after amanda and her boyfriend. why is that? because gedede "said" they were there- only on his word? i've been going back and forth since day one but now leaning toward NOT guilty. she s no angel but i don t think she had anything to do with the murder of her roomate, i think they have their guy. what a nightmare

[june]

Lawyer challenges Knox testimony

This to me is the most disturbing of all the testimony......

For a second time, Miss Knox, who had been on a student exchange from Seattle's University of Washington, described how she learned Miss Kercher had died.

"When I got home, I found it strange the door was open but I didn't know what to think," she said. "I called 'Is anybody there?"'

She said the room of another of her housemates, Filomena Romanelli, was in "chaos".

"I saw clothes on the floor. I saw the window was broken. I wondered what had happened.

"Meredith's door was locked but this didn't alarm me. I was only alarmed when I called her and she didn't answer."



She was alarmed but went ahead and had a shower anyway??? Broken window, room in chaos, blood spots in the sink and floor??? Doesn't make sense.

The way you have described this is very misleading. According to testimony, you have some events out of order. The discovery of the broken window in Filomena's room was not made until after the shower and after she had later returned to the cottage with Raffaelle.

The door had latching problems, justification in one's mind for finding it open. And as for the blood in the bathroom, the crime scene pictures show that it was minimal, enough to make one pause and think "hmmm, how'd that happen", but certainly not enough to suggest a murder had been committed. In testimony, Amanda says she noticed the blood spots on the sink, even scratched at them with her fingernail as they were dry. She also testified that she didn't notice the blood spots on the bathmat until after her shower.

Remember, hindsight is twenty-twenty. It's easy for us to say that we know what we would've done if we'd walked into a bathroom with a few spots of dried blood on the sink because we now know someone had been murdered in the next room. I think that has to be kept in mind.

[Jester]

I don't think an infected ear piercing would produce a lot of blood;

I believe that somebody is lying.

Of course friends and relatives are trying to cover Amanda's butt so she will not be sent to prison for 30 years.

At least Amanda and the family aren't alleging cross-contamination again. It seems that everyone has accepted that Amanda and Meredith's DNA was in the sink on the morning after the murder. I don't believe Amanda's blood got there because of an infected piercing. I've seen infected ears, and they don't appear to be dripping blood.

Another fact that makes little sense is that Amanda was interrogated, and claims she was coerced into making a false statement. Why did she, the next day, write a five page statement corroborating her verbal statement? I'm assuming that she left the police station and returned, or that she was allowed to rest in between. Am I mistaken here? Was she interrogated all night long, given breakfast, and then forced to write the statement? Her family claims the written statement contradicts the verbal statement, but that's not the impression I get from the trial. Wasn't the confession admitted because she wrote the 5 page statement confirming her verbal statement?

[Jester]

they didn t go after the pub owner like they are going after amanda and her boyfriend. why is that? because gedede "said" they were there- only on his word? i've been going back and forth since day one but now leaning toward NOT guilty. she s no angel but i don t think she had anything to do with the murder of her roomate, i think they have their guy. what a nightmare

They did go after the bar owner, and police threw him in jail (IIRC). It was proven 2 weeks later that he had an alibi, and so he was cleared. It impacted his life significantly, which is why he is suing Amanda for false accusations.

Read about Patrick's experience with Amanda Knox here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-496218/I-fired-Foxy-Knoxy-hitting-customers-Patrick-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

[Jester]

"Forensic police have testified about finding mixed DNA samples of Kercher and Knox's blood on the bidet, sink and a Q-tips box."

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/407194.html

If we accept that Amanda's DNA was mixed with Meredith's DNA in the sink because of an infected pierced ear, how to we explain the mixed DNA on the bidet and Q-tips? If it was mixed DNA because of living together, why wasn't there mixed DNA from the other two roommates. I know that there were two bathrooms and Meredith and Amanda shared the one bathroom, but Amanda admitted that she used both bathrooms, so it would be expected that they all did.

[iluvmua]

Either Amanda and Raf helped Rudy with this crime or they walked all over the crime scene and that is why their DNA is all over the room and outside of the room.

[Jester]

Either Amanda and Raf helped Rudy with this crime or they walked all over the crime scene and that is why their DNA is all over the room and outside of the room.

What I find interesting is that when Amanda was pressured by police to give information, she lied, implicating Patrick (bar owner). She confessed to being present at the time of the murder, and reiterated her confession the following day in a 5 page statement.

Patrick was arrested in a very brutal way in his home, beaten, threatened, intimidated, interrogated continuously for 10 hours, tossed in jail, treated like a murderer, denied the opportunity to change his clothes, and detained for 14 days. He did not come up with lies, he simply stuck to the truth until his alibi could be proven and verified. What's wrong with Amanda that she couldn't stick to the truth. A little bit of pot smoking doesn't make people imagine things or leave them thinking they may have witnessed a murder. More and more, I'm having difficulties with Amanda's explanation of the night of the murder. Both Raf and Amanda have changed their stories too many times. Patrick, Amanda, and Raf were all subjected to the same interrogation tactics, but only Patrick had with one truth about what he did that night.

[moondance]

thanks for the clarification jes yes now i remember that. more confused than ever- still i don t think so- and the marijuana- it doesn't make a person more aggressive but more mellow in most- now if they were on meth i would believe they did anything for any reason. to me, the forensics are convoluted and i'm feeling the bigger picture. why? what motive? a sex game? their romance was new-plenty of stimulation there, why do they need more? smoke some, have food- watch the tube then sex & sleep. who needs more?

[iluvmua]

What I find interesting is that when Amanda was pressured by police to give information, she lied, implicating Patrick (bar owner). She confessed to being present at the time of the murder, and reiterated her confession the following day in a 5 page statement.

Patrick was arrested in a very brutal way in his home, beaten, threatened, intimidated, interrogated continuously for 10 hours, tossed in jail, treated like a murderer, denied the opportunity to change his clothes, and detained for 14 days. He did not come up with lies, he simply stuck to the truth until his alibi could be proven and verified. What's wrong with Amanda that she couldn't stick to the truth. A little bit of pot smoking doesn't make people imagine things or leave them thinking they may have witnessed a murder. More and more, I'm having difficulties with Amanda's explanation of the night of the murder. Both Raf and Amanda have changed their stories too many times. Patrick, Amanda, and Raf were all subjected to the same interrogation tactics, but only Patrick had with one truth about what he did that night.


I find that VERY interesting about Patrick being subjected to the same interrogation tactics as Amanda and Raf yet Patrick is the ONLY one who could stick to his story.

:eek: That does NOT look good on Amanda or Raf's part.

[moondance]

the aunt said on ng that she didn t write the same things that she said the next day. she said that there are so many errors in the story. how many statements and confessions have we heard about that turned out to be false- too many. maybe it happened like amanda said, she was scared- there were several men she felt threatened- she said what they wanted? she isn t like casey who could prob stand up to them all and not show fear even is she was afraid. amanda seems much more vulnerable with all those authority figures, casey seemed flirty and like a player.

[Jester]

thanks for the clarification jes yes now i remember that. more confused than ever- still i don t think so- and the marijuana- it doesn't make a person more aggressive but more mellow in most- now if they were on meth i would believe they did anything for any reason. to me, the forensics are convoluted and i'm feeling the bigger picture. why? what motive? a sex game? their romance was new-plenty of stimulation there, why do they need more? smoke some, have food- watch the tube then sex & sleep. who needs more?

I don't think smoking pot is a factor in this murder. Although we want to see an all American girl and the son of a doctor, it wouldn't be the first time two people got together and their sick fantasies complimented each other. I'm having difficulties ignoring all the evidence, and cross contamination or corruption at every level of the investigation is a bit much to swallow.

[Jester]

I find that VERY interesting about Patrick being subjected to the same interrogation tactics as Amanda and Raf yet Patrick is the ONLY one who could stick to his story.

:eek: That does NOT look good on Amanda or Raf's part.

You're right, it doesn't look good for them. Amanda wants us to believe that she was intimidated and confused by the police. Amanda has been presented as an intelligent, capable woman, yet she wants us to believe that she's a weak-minded, confused little girl when interrogated by police. By all accounts, both Amanda and Raf are intelligent, capable, worldly people, whereas Patrick is a bar owner in a small Italian town. Raf was a computer science major. How could these two well-educated, intelligent people, from what appears to be good families, forget how to tell the truth during interrogation? Patrick was beaten, threatened, intimidated, yet he remembered the truth even though police had a sworn statement placing him at the crime. I suspect his treatment by police was far more severe than what Amanda experienced.

It seems to me that when Amanda presents herself articulately, and fluent in Italian, in court, it works against her claim that she was confused by police - bit of a contradiction.

[Jester]

the aunt said on ng that she didn t write the same things that she said the next day. she said that there are so many errors in the story. how many statements and confessions have we heard about that turned out to be false- too many. maybe it happened like amanda said, she was scared- there were several men she felt threatened- she said what they wanted? she isn t like casey who could prob stand up to them all and not show fear even is she was afraid. amanda seems much more vulnerable with all those authority figures, casey seemed flirty and like a player.

I know that's what the aunt said, but I don't think the aunt is telling the complete truth. IIRC, it was because Amanda repeated the confession in a five page statement the day after the interrogation that her confession was allowed in court. Her lawyer tried to have it excluded because of coercion, which is not allowed in Italy, but a statement given voluntarily the next day negated any claims she made about coercion.

Here's an extract from her 5 page letter ... doesn't seem to contradict what she told police the previous day:

"Knox said that later that morning, she asked for pen and paper and wrote out a five-page statement again naming Patrick.

"I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming," she wrote in that statement, obtained by the seattlepi.com "I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick," she said, but added that the images seemed "unreal" and that her memories were unreliable and confused.

"Did the police hit you, threaten you or suggest this to you?" asked Pacelli about the handwritten letter. "No," she said, adding that she wanted to write things down to organize her own thoughts and explain that she was confused. She told police she was giving them "a gift." "

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/407154_knox12.html

[Jester]

Here's more information confirming that Amanda chose to write the 5 page statement, and that she corroborated her confession to police. Although the Aunt wants people to believe the 5 page statement is different, that's not what the facts suggest.

Note the dates. Meredith was found November 2, the confession was given in the early hours of November 6 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/12/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-evidence), and the voluntary written statement was made on November 7. On November 9 she was arrested.

"It was that confusion that led Knox to hand-write a statement November 7 laying out all that she knew and didn't about the slaying.

"I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure," Knox wrote in the statement, widely reported in the news.

"That night, it seems to me I was in Raffaele's house," she wrote. "After dinner I noticed the blood on Raffaele's hands, but I was under the impression it was blood from the fish."

On the stand Friday, Knox said she wrote the statement of her own will.

"I was not sure what was my imagination and what was my reality," she said. "Therefore I was confused. I knew I had to write this statement, so I made it clear when I signed that I was confused."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/12/italy.amanda.knox.trial/index.html

[moondance]

oh well i'm back to square one again

[Jester]

oh well i'm back to square one again

I go back and forth with it, but over time there have been some facts that have not been explained away. If Raf and Amanda were completely innocent, why the initial lies, why did they point fingers at each other, why did Amanda point fingers at Patrick, how could anyone shower in a house where the front door is open, there is blood here and there, one bedroom is locked, another bedroom is trashed? Amanda wants us to believe she's young and naive when the police interrogate her, but we've seen her to be intelligent and capable in court. Which is she ... easily confused when questioned, or able to hold her ground?

[iluvmua]

Amanda also went to Seattle Prep school; so she could not have been that dumb.

Does she seriously want people to believe that she is stupid and did not know what was going on the night of November 1st? :confused:

because if she does, it's NOT working.

[iluvmua]

The ONLY thing I can think to why Amanda and Raf's DNA is all over the crime scene is if they came home hours after Meredith was killed and her blood was still somewhat fresh and that is why there are Bloody Footprints etc. all over the place.

Other than that I can't think of any more reasons why their DNA would be all over the place if they claim they were not there when Meredith was killed.


Amanda and Raf are innocent until proven guilty; but the odds are against them.

If you didn't do it then why contaminate a crime scene with your DNA all over the place?????

[Jester]

The ONLY thing I can think to why Amanda and Raf's DNA is all over the crime scene is if they came home hours after Meredith was killed and her blood was still somewhat fresh and that is why there are Bloody Footprints etc. all over the place.

Other than that I can't think of any more reasons why their DNA would be all over the place if they claim they were not there when Meredith was killed.


Amanda and Raf are innocent until proven guilty; but the odds are against them.

If you didn't do it then why contaminate a crime scene with your DNA all over the place?????

Anyone that can take the stand in a foreign country and answer questions from a prosecutor in their own defense must be intelligent. If she is intelligent, as she has demonstrated, why was she so stupid around the time of the murder? There are many ways to de-stress, yet she chose a method that showed off her body - and could potentially be interpreted as an attempt to seduce the officer in charge. What was she thinking? The police asked her about her activities on November 1, the night that Meredith was murdered. Does she expect us to believe that pot smoking makes people instantly stupid, forgetful, and confused? It doesn't. By November 5/6, when she was interrogated, she should have straightened up. The murder of a roommate is no light matter, and not a time for pot smoking. She should have had her wits about her, and she should have been able to remember exactly what happened the night Meredith was murdered. In fact, most people would have thought of nothing else between the murder and the interrogation. She sealed her fate with a 5 page letter that she chose to write on November 7, presumably without the influence of pot. She apparently chose to continue to lie and implicate an innocent man because, perhaps mistakenly, she thought the police already had evidence that implicated him. Perhaps she thought it would get her off the hook if they were already going to arrest Patrick.

[iluvmua]

What was the 5 page letter for?

[Jester]

What was the 5 page letter for?
Finally found her statement here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

[Jester]

Here's a point of view suggesting that Amanda is innocent, and the police are sloppy.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

[moondance]

I go back and forth with it, but over time there have been some facts that have not been explained away. If Raf and Amanda were completely innocent, why the initial lies, why did they point fingers at each other, why did Amanda point fingers at Patrick, how could anyone shower in a house where the front door is open, there is blood here and there, one bedroom is locked, another bedroom is trashed? Amanda wants us to believe she's young and naive when the police interrogate her, but we've seen her to be intelligent and capable in court. Which is she ... easily confused when questioned, or able to hold her ground?



i think she's both

[worried]

Her behavior is beyond odd. It reminds me of how the Manson girls were during their trial. I don't know if she's guilty, but it sure seems like she is to me. I did watch the Dateline (I think Dateline?) episode about the case where it spent a lot of time on her side of the story and I started to waver in my opinion. But now that I am seeing so much inconsistency and her bizarre behavior - it just doesn't add up.

I would have loved to have been able to watch this trial (in English though) to see if I could convict her though, because at this point - I am not sure I could "beyond a reasonable doubt" but my gut tells me she's guilty as charged.

I hope the jurors have more clarity and wisdom on the case. It is hard to judge how a court case is going based on media reports though - we all know how things get spun based on the writer's opinion. Short paragraphs which outline hours of testimony never really tell the entire story when it comes to criminal trials.

This is a very interesting case indeed.

I could not agree with you more. She does act like the Manson girls in that trial. Her behavior is beyond anything I have ever seen before until you reminded me of the Manson Girls!

[Nile]

The ONLY thing I can think to why Amanda and Raf's DNA is all over the crime scene is if they came home hours after Meredith was killed and her blood was still somewhat fresh and that is why there are Bloody Footprints etc. all over the place.

Other than that I can't think of any more reasons why their DNA would be all over the place if they claim they were not there when Meredith was killed.


Amanda and Raf are innocent until proven guilty; but the odds are against them.

If you didn't do it then why contaminate a crime scene with your DNA all over the place?????



There is NO DNA evidence linking Amanda to the crime scene bedroom but an enormous amount of DNA linking Rudy Guede to the crime scene. Look it up.

[dgfred]

Still, why the bundle of lies? From the very beginning both her and Raf should have said 'I know nothing' and they probably wouldn't even be in this mess.

[n/t]

Still, why the bundle of lies? From the very beginning both her and Raf should have said 'I know nothing' and they probably wouldn't even be in this mess.

Exactly. Instead she also writes a 5 page confession which to me is like the equivalent of OJ writing his "If I did it" book. WTH did she do that for? She also wrote letters to her ex in jail. Good grief.

Me thinks she loves the attention.

[dgfred]

Their cell phones being turned off is a giant red flag for me, I don't see them doing this unless it was for a reason.
Also each of them saying they were at Rafs house, watching or doing something with the computer... which shows they didn't.
In my opinion pot would never make you forget where you were or basically what you were doing... but that is what amamda claims.
Everything they have done and said are quite suspicious.

[lunchlady]

I know this is worth nothing and I'm not on the jury or a judge, but my gut feeling after following this case is that Amanda and Raf had something to do with arranging, committing and attempting to cover up Kercher's murder.
The defendants' and their families' statements are also worth nothing IMO. All they want is to avoid punishment, guilty or not guilty.

[Amused]

What an odd case this is.

I was inclined to believe she was innocent, in part because I think that prosecuter is a nut. (If you read the book about the prior Perugia murders you would see why)....

But after reading her own words, I'm just not sure.
That girl is strange.

Her poor parents.

[logbump]

Amanda's father...We've lost everything defending.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526841,00.html

[Jester]

Their cell phones being turned off is a giant red flag for me, I don't see them doing this unless it was for a reason.
Also each of them saying they were at Rafs house, watching or doing something with the computer... which shows they didn't.
In my opinion pot would never make you forget where you were or basically what you were doing... but that is what amamda claims.
Everything they have done and said are quite suspicious.

I could not agree more with the pot comment. It does many things, but memory loss is not one of them. It does, over prolonged (years) abuse, result in impairment of short term memory, but that is not Amanda's experience.

[moondance]

yes i kept thinking about the statements about the pot too. unless it was some ultra strong weed laced with something else i just don t see it being the cause of the loss of her knowledge regarding who, what, where and when..

[moondance]

Although the Aunt wants people to believe the 5 page statement is different, that's not what the facts suggest.




the father also says that the statement was different the next day. but i read the statement and it seems the same. i just don't get it

[Jester]

the father also says that the statement was different the next day. but i read the statement and it seems the same. i just don't get it

The family wants us to believe that Amanda's DNA, mixed with Meredith's DNA, got into the sink because Amanda had an infected piercing. If she had showered, how did the blood get into the sink? Given that she showered with blood smears in the bathroom, and didn't flush a full toilet, I would expect her to wipe blood onto a towel after a shower.

Amanda says in her voluntary 5 page statement that she was confused. She probably said that during her interrogation as well. I think she wants people to believe she suffered police-induced confusion, but during the interrogation she probably claimed pot-induced confusion.

[aino]

IMO the mystery here are Raffaele's ( the Italian co-defendent boyfriend) inconsistent statements. He had no trouble with the language or culture. He is an IT university student, a doctor's son with a sister in police force, why did give many different stories about the murder night?

[n/t]

IMO the mystery here are Raffaele's ( the Italian co-defendent boyfriend) inconsistent statements. He had no trouble with the language or culture. He is an IT university student, a doctor's son with a sister in police force, why did give many different stories about the murder night?


What's inconsistent about his statements? Don't they corroborate with Amanda's?


I found this one statement in her "love" letters to her ex boyfriend whilst she was in jail, very chilling. Maybe it means nothing or could mean she wanted to know what story they would both stick with.

==

On February 13, 2009, Knox wrote: "It was good to see you again today.

"We got to exchange a few more glances than usual, though I have to admit, I'm not good at reading the subtle messages that one passes through the features of the face, nor can I read lips.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Amanda-Knox-Letters-To-Raffaele-Sollecito-Show-Thoughts-On-Prison-And-Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Trial/Article/200906215305452?lpos=World_News_News_Your_Way_Regi on_4&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15305452_Amanda_Knox_Lette rs_To_Raffaele_Sollecito_Show_Thoughts_On_Prison_A nd_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Trial

[n/t]

Tomorrow Amanda's mom is scheduled to testify.

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_061509WAB-knox-murder-trial-SW.8319b170.html

[dgfred]

What could she testify to? Amanda is a wonderful girl and couldn't have anything to do with this... there, I did it for her :rolleyes: .

[Mandymax]

Amanda's father...We've lost everything defending.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526841,00.html

Is a "PR consultant" REALLY that crucial in getting your daughter acquitted? Really?

For me, it keeps coming back to all the different stories she's told. Innocent people don't change their stories repeatedly. Innocent people don't point the finger at other innocent people and say "he did it."

And just my own thought: she certainly didn't help her "no, really, I'm a good girl" image by testifying that she was high when she spoke to police.

As always, my own opinion.

[Jester]

IMO the mystery here are Raffaele's ( the Italian co-defendent boyfriend) inconsistent statements. He had no trouble with the language or culture. He is an IT university student, a doctor's son with a sister in police force, why did give many different stories about the murder night?

That's a good question. As a computer science student (which I think is different than an IT specialist) he should be very logical (writes software programs). Even if we accept that Amanda's memory is wiped out by smoking pot (or hash, as is mentioned in some articles), what was wrong with Raffael's memory? Why did he say that Amanda may not have been with him? Is it possible that he said he fell asleep, and the police suggested that Amanda may have gotten up in the middle of the night and gone out to commit murder by herself? He would have agreed that it was possible. Did the police then turn that back on him and, instead of saying that she could have gone out while he slept, claim that he pointed fingers at her and was also involved?

[Jester]

Is a "PR consultant" REALLY that crucial in getting your daughter acquitted? Really?

For me, it keeps coming back to all the different stories she's told. Innocent people don't change their stories repeatedly. Innocent people don't point the finger at other innocent people and say "he did it."

And just my own thought: she certainly didn't help her "no, really, I'm a good girl" image by testifying that she was high when she spoke to police.

As always, my own opinion.

There was a lot of negativity towards Amanda when she was arrested - and now still. The Italian people loved the scandal. A PR person may have been necessary to temper the public opinion in Italy; to present a different viewpoint.

[dgfred]

That's a good question. As a computer science student (which I think is different than an IT specialist) he should be very logical (writes software programs). Even if we accept that Amanda's memory is wiped out by smoking pot (or hash, as is mentioned in some articles), what was wrong with Raffael's memory? Why did he say that Amanda may not have been with him? Is it possible that he said he fell asleep, and the police suggested that Amanda may have gotten up in the middle of the night and gone out to commit murder by herself? He would have agreed that it was possible. Did the police then turn that back on him and, instead of saying that she could have gone out while he slept, claim that he pointed fingers at her and was also involved?

Plus why turn off their cell phones? :confused:

[aino]

Turning off their cell phones around 9 pm is odd, but even odder is the the fact that they both turned them on around 6 next morning ( claimed they slept till 10 after night of smoking pot, making love and having a shower togetrher).

[dgfred]

Turning off their cell phones around 9 pm is odd, but even odder is the the fact that they both turned them on around 6 next morning ( claimed they slept till 10 after night of smoking pot, making love and having a shower togetrher).

Hey, great point :thumbsup: ... see I missed that altogether :blushing: .

Very strange indeed.

[n/t]

Raffaele Sollecito's father takes the stand. Amanda's mom is also expected to testify.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUwNJptZbnCIsu90VqOzxS7S2fzQD98TLVH81


Can someone explain to me why they're being tried together if their statements don't cooborate? I'm confused about that.

[n/t]

BEST selling crime writer John Grisham is to turn the sensational murder trial of murdered student Meredith Kercher into a book.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2483657/Knox-trial-could-be-best-seller.html


Love John Grisham. I've read all his books. If he writes a book about this case, it'll be added to my collection. :smile:

[logbump]

Amanda's mom takes stand.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527380,00.html

[lunchlady]

The only good reason for Amanda's mom to testify is that Amanda called her sometime in the morning, I forget when. The time of the call relative to events in Perugia is mildly interesting but I don't recall there being anything about it that would give Amanda any sort of alibi.

Character witnesses, especially close relatives, are usually just a distraction, IMO. They see the good in the defendant and remember their innocent days, no matter how guilty or how depraved the defendant now is. It's fine for them to be supportive of their family member but their declarations of love and innocence or usually immaterial to the case.

I find the interest in relatives' reactions somewhat cruel, especially the press interviews immediately after an arrest.

[n/t]

Excellent article. 4 pages.

Will Amanda Knox Spend a Third Year in Perugia?
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/Story?id=7878630&page=1

[iluvmua]

there are two outcomes: either Amanda helped commit the crime or she didn't.

Why is she telling SO many lies if she really is innocent? That is what I can't understand. :shrug:

[Nile]

I completely agree with Jab712.

The Prosecutors are trying to find anyway possible to link Amanda and Raffaele to this crime irregardless of common sense. They (Prosecutors) have been lying to the public regarding the evidence in this case for the past 1 1/2years and want to save face.

Rudy Guede's DNA is all over the crime scene and the victim. He was the sole rapist and murderer of Meredith Kercher. Sadly this type of crime is not uncommon in this day and age unlike that of satanic ritual killings which Prosecutor Mignini claims happened in this case.

From everything that I've read, I don't see how anyone could doubt the innocence of both Amanda and Raffaele.

[Jester]

Plus why turn off their cell phones? :confused:

Wild sex? Did she and her parents not have a regular call time? If they did, and it wasn't in the turned off phone period, then whats the problem? We all turn off our phones from time to time, like sex, I assume.

[Jester]

Turning off their cell phones around 9 pm is odd, but even odder is the the fact that they both turned them on around 6 next morning ( claimed they slept till 10 after night of smoking pot, making love and having a shower togetrher).

Really? They're a couple of 20 year olds about to have sex for the first couple of times ... you don't think they'd turn off their cell phones?

Lots of drugs, sex through the night, and then waking up at 6 after falling asleep around each other? Turning their phones on at 6? That's odd?

[Jester]

Hey, great point :thumbsup: ... see I missed that altogether :blushing: .

Very strange indeed.

What's strange about turning off your phone the night you're with a new girlfriend and drugs, the shower, good food, sleepy sex, and early mornings?

What I want to know is if Amanda woke up at 6 and purchased cleaning products like one of the witnesses testified ... then went back to Raffael's apt, and then went to her apt - with the open door, blood smears, feces in toilets, trashed bedroom, and locked bedroom, showered (cleaned) and then returned to Rafael's apt and they went together to report the finding.

[Jester]

The only good reason for Amanda's mom to testify is that Amanda called her sometime in the morning, I forget when. The time of the call relative to events in Perugia is mildly interesting but I don't recall there being anything about it that would give Amanda any sort of alibi.

Character witnesses, especially close relatives, are usually just a distraction, IMO. They see the good in the defendant and remember their innocent days, no matter how guilty or how depraved the defendant now is. It's fine for them to be supportive of their family member but their declarations of love and innocence or usually immaterial to the case.

I find the interest in relatives' reactions somewhat cruel, especially the press interviews immediately after an arrest.

Amanda called her parents (mom) and the call was taped. During one call, she said she didn't know why she fingered Patrick the pub owner ... shortly afterward Patrick was released. That's the significance of the calls home from the prosecutor's position. Amanda reveals to mom that she lied and implicated an innocent man after that innocent man was arrested, interrogated, and detained.

[lunchlady]

The evidence that Amanda did the morning bleach/clothes cleanup is pretty good, but I suppose it doesn't prove she was in the room when Kercher was murdered.
I am suddenly struck by how sad it is that Meredith's brutal rape and murder hasn't produced any apparent regret in Guede or the current defendents. A and R are getting so much attention, while Meredith is just dead.

[Jester]

The evidence that Amanda did the morning bleach/clothes cleanup is pretty good, but I suppose it doesn't prove she was in the room when Kercher was murdered.
I am suddenly struck by how sad it is that Meredith's brutal rape and murder hasn't produced any apparent regret in Guede or the current defendents. A and R are getting so much attention, while Meredith is just dead.

This is a good read: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/1.html

I've had some facts wrong. Raffael was an IT student, not computer science. The 5 page statement from Amanda was not admissible, but I think I remember that it was still presented in court. On page 6 of the article, this jumped off the page "... she studied Italian, German, Japanese and creative writing. One of her college short stories made it to her MySpace page: a tale of a young man accused of drugging and raping a woman." Also, Raffaelle was interested in sex comics, although that is rarely mentioned in the news.

After reading that article, I'm again inclined to think they are guilty. I didn't realize that their phones were only turned off that night between about 8 and the next morning. The fact that they were only turned of that night makes it an awful lot more suspicious.

[Jester]

The evidence that Amanda did the morning bleach/clothes cleanup is pretty good, but I suppose it doesn't prove she was in the room when Kercher was murdered.
I am suddenly struck by how sad it is that Meredith's brutal rape and murder hasn't produced any apparent regret in Guede or the current defendents. A and R are getting so much attention, while Meredith is just dead.

The article I linked says that Amanda was able to describe the murder scene, but that the room was quickly closed by police. How could she describe it if she didn't see it? Also, it says that there is evidence of Amanda in the room.

[n/t]

Dispute over Kercher murder knife

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8111014.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/world/europe/21italy.html?ref=global-home

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUwNJptZbnCIsu90VqOzxS7S2fzQD98UGF380

[Jester]

Dispute over Kercher murder knife

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8111014.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/world/europe/21italy.html?ref=global-home

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUwNJptZbnCIsu90VqOzxS7S2fzQD98UGF380

Thanks for the links. From the BBC, "A coroner said that Meredith Kercher was killed with a 3ins to 3.5ins knife, a lawyer for the Kercher family said.

But prosecutors say a 6.5ins knife found at the home of one of the accused matched Ms Kercher's wounds. "

Why is the prosecution inventing facts to suit their theory? Why ask the coroner to prepare a report if the prosecution is going to make up new facts?

"[Coroner] also said that no more than a single attacker could have assaulted Ms Kercher."

[n/t]

Thanks for the links. From the BBC, "A coroner said that Meredith Kercher was killed with a 3ins to 3.5ins knife, a lawyer for the Kercher family said.

But prosecutors say a 6.5ins knife found at the home of one of the accused matched Ms Kercher's wounds. "

Why is the prosecution inventing facts to suit their theory? Why ask the coroner to prepare a report if the prosecution is going to make up new facts?

"[Coroner] also said that no more than a single attacker could have assaulted Ms Kercher."


Good question. My guess would be they suspected Raffaele and Amanda and when they retrieved the knives at Raffaele's home, one of them had Amanda's DNA on the handle and Kercher's blood on the tip of the blade. Did they plant evidence or was there more than one knife at the crime scene? The one used on Kercher may still be missing and that could be the smaller one. Could the one found at Raffaele's home have been at the crime scene but not used in the murder? :shrug:

As for the last statement, it was later debunked by the prosecution. In one of the articles, it said that the coroner believed that because the room wasn't big enough for 3 people. Prosecutors, IIRC, said there were more than 6 people in the room when collecting evidence so the coroner's theory is incorrect. It was further testified that the coroner never saw Kercher's room. I think it's in one of the links I posted above.

This is a fascinating trial.

[aino]

There's an excellent summary of case in a forum called True Justice for Meredith Kercher!

[n/t]

There's an excellent summary of case in a forum called True Justice for Meredith Kercher!

Thank you. It really gives the real facts of the case without the biased media reporting. I can't listen to JVM discuss this case. It's all one sided and unfortunately, the guests/experts on her show don't know anything about this case. They see no big deal in Amanda's behaviour after the murder. They blew it off as normal college student behaviour. Say what?

The coroner's testimony about the knife may be a big problem for the prosecution. What do you think?

There's no question that a lot of the evidence points to Amanda and Raffaele being involved but did they murder Kercher or were they accomplices after the fact? They may have been there but did they participate in the murder? Is their cover up based on fear that they would be implicated in the crime because they were there when it happened? Could they have been involved but indirectly?

Purchasing the bleach is a big red flag.

[Jester]

I've wondered how this would play out if this scenario happened in Seattle rather than Italy. Amanda confessed during questioning and later in a voluntary statement, both Amanda and Raffael changed their stories several times, Amanda implicated an innocent man, and more. Amanda saw the front door open, saw blood, and still wandered into the apt to shower. So many odd facts. What if Amanda were doing the splits and cartwheels in a police station in Seattle? I'm not convinced as many people would assume that she may be innocent. I have to wonder if Amanda didn't think of being away from home as being unaccountable to everyone.

[n/t]

I've wondered how this would play out if this scenario happened in Seattle rather than Italy. Amanda confessed during questioning and later in a voluntary statement, both Amanda and Raffael changed their stories several times, Amanda implicated an innocent man, and more. Amanda saw the front door open, saw blood, and still wandered into the apt to shower. So many odd facts. What if Amanda were doing the splits and cartwheels in a police station in Seattle? I'm not convinced as many people would assume that she may be innocent. I have to wonder if Amanda didn't think of being away from home as being unaccountable to everyone.

IMO, she'd be already tried and convicted by the public and the media.

[Jester]

Thank you. It really gives the real facts of the case without the biased media reporting. I can't listen to JVM discuss this case. It's all one sided and unfortunately, the guests/experts on her show don't know anything about this case. They see no big deal in Amanda's behaviour after the murder. They blew it off as normal college student behaviour. Say what?

The coroner's testimony about the knife may be a big problem for the prosecution. What do you think?

There's no question that a lot of the evidence points to Amanda and Raffaele being involved but did they murder Kercher or were they accomplices after the fact? They may have been there but did they participate in the murder? Is their cover up based on fear that they would be implicated in the crime because they were there when it happened? Could they have been involved but indirectly?

Purchasing the bleach is a big red flag.

What exactly is normal college behavior? How in the world does anyone graduate if college is one big irresponsible party? I think normal college behavior, for those that graduate with a decent GPA, is to attend class, study, and learn. Sure there are some that think college is a party because it's their first time away from home, but I don't think that is normal college behavior and I don't think those partiers actually graduate. Students that party hard are late for class, can't concentrate, miss deadlines, feel entitled, seek to blame others for their problems, and generally speaking, fail. Amanda's behavior after the murder is bizarre, uncaring, callous, deceptive, and selfish.

If A and R were there when it happened but did nothing to help Meredith as she bled out, then they must be as guilty as the person that used the knife.

Isn't it the prosecution theory that Meredith had to be restrained to have the injuries she had? Didn't she have small cuts on her body? I can't imagine anyone sitting still while someone nicks them with a knife, so there should either be signs of a huge struggle, or more than one person was involved. Wasn't a blanket thrown over Meredith? I think I'm getting this from a TV show, but the theory is that if the victim is familiar to the perp then the victim is covered. If the victim is a stranger, then usually the victim is not covered (something about a sense of modesty).

[Jester]

IMO, she'd be already tried and convicted by the public and the media.

I think you're right. One reason people may be trying to find Amanda innocent could be because there appears to be a general distrust of foreign justice systems. We certainly saw this in the Natalie Holloway case - complete distrust and suspicion of a different legal system. There have been suggestions that everyone from the grocery, and lingerie, clerk to the police, evidence collectors, and forensic analysts are corrupt. Either every Italian involved in the case is corrupt, or Amanda is guilty.

[Jester]

There's an excellent summary of case in a forum called True Justice for Meredith Kercher!

It is ... thanks for the tip.

[Jester]

Here's another interesting comment on the murder by Ann Coulter: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=101459

[Jester]

I've been reading various websites, and one comment that I find interesting is that Amanda says she showered and blow dried her hair shortly before police arrived at the murder scene. I've looked around for pictures ... is this the correct picture taken that day at the scene? It's been suggested that it doesn't exactly look like she just washed and did her hair.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_01/AmandaKnox_468x369.jpg

[Jester]

CBS 48 Hour Mystery link: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4937069n&tag=related;photovideo

[aino]

Why would the Italian LE keep on procecuting two college kids ( one of whom is a wealthy countryman) when they already have one confirmed murderer ( a petty criminal to boot!) ? Could it because they have evidence that these two were involved ? The motive is hard to imagine but for instance there's only very shallow information about the relationship between Amanda and Meredith. Also Raffaele seems to have some issues like knife collection and keen interest in violent manga cartoons ( is being a virgin at 23 an issue?).

[Jester]

But they had only been together 2 weeks. This is not long enough to develop a pattern of behavior for the two of them as a couple. In two weeks, how many times do you think she was ready to go into work but was called or texted to not bother coming in? Probably not at all.

Which scenario makes more sense? Seriously, think about this....

Amanda was supposed to work. She got the call/text to not come in. So she and Raf decided to turn off their phone immediately and go and try have a sex game with Meredith? Amanda and Meredith weren't even getting along, but she is ok with having sex with her? Take it a step further, she is ok with her new man that she is soo smitten with, to have sex with Meredith? I highly doubt that.

How did Rudy get in on this? They would have had to grab Rudy off the street, because they had no way to contact him. So Amanda is going to: 1) Have sex with a stranger, 2) Have sex with a girl whom she isn't really getting along with, and 3) Allow her new boyfriend to also have sex with a different girl...a girl she isn't even getting along with. (right....that makes perfect sense)

Then when Meredith doesn't want to participate, they kill her. After that, Rudy leaves and then A & R go and clean up the crime scene removing all of their prints and their bloody footprints, and made sure to only leave Rudy's.

or....

Rudy, who was obviously smitten with the girls, decided to go into the house and try to get together with Meredith. Meredith knows him but isn't interested. He rapes Meredith and kills her.

Had Patrick NOT called Amanda to say not to come into work, she would have gone to work, had an alibi and her phone would have remained on the whole night. But I guarantee you, Meredith would have still been raped and murdered. Or, maybe they both would have been dead. Amanda may not have gone to Raf's after work and went home instead.

Why make it the most complicated scenario when the most simplistic is the one that actually fits?

Rudy is a drug dealer. Amanda had met Rudy four times (by her own admission) in the month that she had been in Perugia. Was it a drug connection, or did they move in the same circles? In one month, that's once a week - too often for Amanda to say she didn't know him. Amanda most likely knew where Rudy hung out.

Neither Amanda nor Raffaele were new to sex games. Amanda wrote a short story about rape and murder (proud enough post it on her facebook page), and Raffaelle was interested in odd sex, dressing up, and playing with knives. Their interests in kinky stuff were all over their facebook pages. Within a day of meeting they could have learned about their mutual interests. Two weeks after meeting, Meredith and Amanda were no longer getting along, Amanda was jealous of Meredith by some accounts, and Amanda's statements about Patrick and Meredith suggest jealousy. Maybe Amanda and Raffaelle cooked up the idea of involving Meredith in their drug filled games. Rudy had met Meredith and liked her. It not a big stretch for Amanda and Rudy to have started the idea the night before when they attended the same party.

Why were Amanda's fingerprints wiped from the bathroom, why is her DNA mixed with Meredith's in several places, why was luminol needed to reveal bloody footprints, why doesn't Amanda's hair look washed and blow dried when the police arrived, why didn't Raffaele and Amanda call police until after the post police arrived to return cell phones, and on and on.

It's simple to focus only on Rudy if you ignore all the other evidence, but why ignore it?