Michelle Fisher Young 3-3-09

[Tia]

Continue here.

[Jester]

I think Meredith's arrest is imminent and she will accept a plea to avoid the death penalty.

How odd. I haven't read anything to suggest that there is any evidence implicating anyone other than Jason Young, the Slayer.

[kingbuff]

Jason Young made his first phone call to Mrs. Money at 7:49 am (from SW)

they said the first call he made was to MM (from Oneder)
----------------

You still have it wrong. Can you see the difference?

[Barbara2]

Don't know which board you're reading. The only deal I can see is what I said before: the DA might give Jason immunity so he can talk. I have no clue what he can tell the cops, but the cops seem to think he can help them by talking. Needless to say, lawyers don't seem to trust the cops....for whatever reason.

Why would Jason need immunity if you believe him to be innocent of any wrong doing?

[Jester]

Jason Young made his first phone call to Mrs. Money at 7:49 am (from SW)

they said the first call he made was to MM (from Oneder)
----------------

You still have it wrong. Can you see the difference?

Does that mean that his first call Jason made was at 7:49 on the morning that Michelle was discovered murdered? or are you suggesting that there was an earlier call to Pat? What are you trying to say?

[Jester]

Don't know which board you're reading. The only deal I can see is what I said before: the DA might give Jason immunity so he can talk. I have no clue what he can tell the cops, but the cops seem to think he can help them by talking. Needless to say, lawyers don't seem to trust the cops....for whatever reason.

That's completely false. Lawyers and police move in the same circles, along with Judges and prosecutors. Lawyers rely on police, and trust them as colleagues.

I can't imagine why you would suggest that lawyers don't trust police. If a lawyer tells a client to remain silent, it is because the lawyer knows that the client's words could lead to a conviction. There is no other reason for a client to be told to be mute.

[Barbara2]

Yep I see the difference.

OK, so what if any calls were before MM? If the 7:40 time was a call. to whom? Why wouldn't they put in the search warrant? I mean if it was voicemail, then why wouldn't they have just said it? Even if it was to Michelle, he called her cell at other times...why not just state in the SW? It wouldn't prove anything (other than further premeditation).

My best guess is that the 7:40 was to voicemail. If he had in fact turned his phone off, all calls would have gone to the voice mailbox. If he had a call in that mailbox from MM, he probably returned that call first thing. Just a guess.

[Silsbee]

This could also be poor wording on the search warrant because by definition, a ping is a "call" to the cell tower. I think that may have been what they were saying because they said the first call he made was to MM, not another person or voicemail (which technically also registers as a call). Additionally if it was voicemail, I believe they would have stated it.

I don't think so one. It states the first ping is at 7:40 and then goes on to say "this call" and the location. The reference to MM is only to establish his first call to her on that day was at 7:49am. I think everyone has mistakenly assumed his first call of the day was to her.

Sils

[Tia]

That's completely false. Lawyers and police move in the same circles, along with Judges and prosecutors. Lawyers rely on police, and trust them as colleagues.

I can't imagine why you would suggest that lawyers don't trust police. If a lawyer tells a client to remain silent, it is because the lawyer knows that the client's words could lead to a conviction. There is no other reason for a client to be told to be mute.

ITA. Jason has remained mute from day one, even when it came to fighting for his daughter. If his attorney is advising him to do this, they know that his words will most likely lead to a conviction. I cannot imagine any other reason for not speaking up in the WDS or the Custody Suit.

[Silsbee]

Does that mean that his first call Jason made was at 7:49 on the morning that Michelle was discovered murdered? or are you suggesting that there was an earlier call to Pat? What are you trying to say?

His first call or text was made or received at 7:40am.

Sils

[Jester]

I don't think so one. It states the first ping is at 7:40 and then goes on to say "this call" and the location. The reference to MM is only to establish his first call to her on that day was at 7:49am. I think everyone has mistakenly assumed his first call of the day was to her.

Sils

What's the importance of Jason's first call being at 7:40 or 7:49? I thought the initial discussion was in reference to where Jason may have been when he first turned on his phone. Is there a different reason for the discussion, or does 10 minutes make a significant difference to anything?

[Jester]

His first call or text was made or received at 7:40am.

Sils

Thanks. Can you tell me why it is important?

[Barbara2]

ITA. Jason has remained mute from day one, even when it came to fighting for his daughter. If his attorney is advising him to do this, they know that his words will most likely lead to a conviction. I cannot imagine any other reason for not speaking up in the WDS or the Custody Suit.

I read an interesting article recently on the right to remain silent and it's implications. I admit I didn't read the whole thing but the premise was interesting.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:GMY6dI5BaO8J:myweb.uiowa.edu/sbibas/Documents/The%2520Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent/Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent%25204.doc+guilt y+remain+silent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[Silsbee]

That's completely false. Lawyers and police move in the same circles, along with Judges and prosecutors. Lawyers rely on police, and trust them as colleagues.

I can't imagine why you would suggest that lawyers don't trust police. If a lawyer tells a client to remain silent, it is because the lawyer knows that the client's words could lead to a conviction. There is no other reason for a client to be told to be mute.

Lawyers only trust them so much. I can imagine a few reasons why lawyers may not trust LE. Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law - no matter how innocent you may be. That is why lawyers tell their clients not to speak.

Sils

[Barbara2]

Lawyers only trust them so much. I can imagine a few reasons why lawyers may not trust LE. Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law - no matter how innocent you may be. That is why lawyers tell their clients not to speak.

Sils

Nor how guilty. :wink:

[Jester]

Lawyers only trust them so much. I can imagine a few reasons why lawyers may not trust LE. Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law - no matter how innocent you may be. That is why lawyers tell their clients not to speak.

Sils

In the real world, police and lawyers work together and trust each other. If lawyers walked around paranoid that police were out to get them or their clients, they wouldn't even last long enough to pass the bar exam. Lawyers with truly innocent clients tell their clients to speak up, and they sit with them to ensure their rights are protected. If a lawyer fears that their client is guilty or will implicate themselves in a crime, the lawyer will recommend the client remain mute.

Fear of police persecution, and mistrust of people in law enforcement, falls into the realm of mental illness, not reality.

[Tia]

I read an interesting article recently on the right to remain silent and it's implications. I admit I didn't read the whole thing but the premise was interesting.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:GMY6dI5BaO8J:myweb.uiowa.edu/sbibas/Documents/The%2520Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent/Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent%25204.doc+guilt y+remain+silent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a


YIKES! More "Game Theory"!

Looks interesting though!

[Silsbee]

What's the importance of Jason's first call being at 7:40 or 7:49? I thought the initial discussion was in reference to where Jason may have been when he first turned on his phone. Is there a different reason for the discussion, or does 10 minutes make a significant difference to anything?

I guess you didn't read the end of the last thread. There is an assumption that Jason's phone was off the night of the murder. That is not the only conclusion to be made. You might want to read it as it will answer your question more thoroughly.

Sils

[Silsbee]

In the real world, police and lawyers work together and trust each other. If lawyers walked around paranoid that police were out to get them or their clients, they wouldn't even last long enough to pass the bar exam. Lawyers with truly innocent clients tell their clients to speak up, and they sit with them to ensure their rights are protected. If a lawyer fears that their client is guilty or will implicate themselves in a crime, the lawyer will recommend the client remain mute.

Fear of police persecution, and mistrust of people in law enforcement, falls into the realm of mental illness, not reality.

That is your opinion. I have seen differently.

Sils

[Jester]

I guess you didn't read the end of the last thread. There is an assumption that Jason's phone was off the night of the murder. That is not the only conclusion to be made. You might want to read it as it will answer your question more thoroughly.

Sils

I have read that his phone was turned on in the morning, apparently at 7:40 and not 7:49. I don't think 9 minutes makes much difference. Whether he phoned Michelle Money first, checked his messages first, or called mom first ... does it really matter?

His phone was turned off during the murder, which was a couple of hours after he was seen heading for the exit of the hotel.

[Jester]

That is your opinion. I have seen differently.

Sils

That's my experience, not my opinion. Where can I read about lawyers that are, in general, paranoid about police persecution and untrusting of law enforcement?

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Cellular providers, including Verizon Wireless and Cingular Wireless, know, within about 300 yards, the location of their subscribers whenever a phone is turned on. Even if the phone is not in use, it still communicates with cell tower sites, and the wireless provider keeps track of the phone's position as it travels. Cell phone GPS tracking is one of those advances. Cell phone companies can track a customer's movements by identifying the cell tower or towers through which his calls were handled.

http://www.pagerank10.co.uk/mobile_phones/gps_cell_phone_tracking/

Hope this helps...........:laugh:

[Silsbee]

I have read that his phone was turned on in the morning, apparently at 7:40 and not 7:49. I don't think 9 minutes makes much difference. Whether he phoned Michelle Money first, checked his messages first, or called mom first ... does it really matter?

His phone was turned off during the murder, which was a couple of hours after he was seen heading for the exit of the hotel.

emphasis mine.
We don't know if his phone was off.

Pings hitting towers with no call activity may or may not be historically logged. We don't know if Jason's carrier logged the info so LE either has that info or they don't.

Bottom line: Jason's phone was off during the night OR he did not receive or make any calls during that time frame of no pings.

Sils

[Silsbee]

That's my experience, not my opinion. Where can I read about lawyers that are, in general, paranoid about police persecution and untrusting of law enforcement?

Paranoid about police persecution are your words not mine.

In my real world people are people and some of them are trustworthy and some are not. A good lawyer will have a healthy knowledge that not all LE are trustworthy.

Sils

[Silsbee]

Cellular providers, including Verizon Wireless and Cingular Wireless, know, within about 300 yards, the location of their subscribers whenever a phone is turned on. Even if the phone is not in use, it still communicates with cell tower sites, and the wireless provider keeps track of the phone's position as it travels. Cell phone GPS tracking is one of those advances. Cell phone companies can track a customer's movements by identifying the cell tower or towers through which his calls were handled.

http://www.pagerank10.co.uk/mobile_phones/gps_cell_phone_tracking/

Hope this helps...........:laugh:

Hi BSN,
It is my understanding that GPS systems on cell phones is relatively new. I don't think this technology was the norm in 2006. I looked for a date in this link but didn't see one.

ETA: It also mentions towers through which his calls were handled - so it is still referencing calls being tracked.

Sils

[Tia]

Cellular providers, including Verizon Wireless and Cingular Wireless, know, within about 300 yards, the location of their subscribers whenever a phone is turned on. Even if the phone is not in use, it still communicates with cell tower sites, and the wireless provider keeps track of the phone's position as it travels. Cell phone GPS tracking is one of those advances. Cell phone companies can track a customer's movements by identifying the cell tower or towers through which his calls were handled.

http://www.pagerank10.co.uk/mobile_phones/gps_cell_phone_tracking/

Hope this helps...........:laugh:


Thanxxxxxxxx!

I tend to believe his phone was off all night to avoid those pesky "pings" while he was earning his "slayer" title.

JMO

[kingbuff]

I guess you didn't read the end of the last thread. There is an assumption that Jason's phone was off the night of the murder. That is not the only conclusion to be made. You might want to read it as it will answer your question more thoroughly.

Sils

Silsbee, many posters jump on without reading past posts. Sad but true. You show much more patience than I. I've learned to ignore them.

[Tia]

Silsbee, many posters jump on without reading past posts. Sad but true. You show much more patience than I. I've learned to ignore them.


Ignore away. I've read the posts. I just don't see the point in many. Jason has been declared Michelle's slayer, he has not fought for his daughter, has not uttered a word in his defense, even in a civil suit, so I tend to believe he has plenty to hide. Post after post about cell phone pings change none of those facts.

[alterEgo©]

Yes. This was a comment made by someone to that article:

"Cell phone carriers most certainly log those "pings". I should know, I work on the databases that log these records. I'm not sure about other companies, but ours keeps these records online for about 6 months. But we can go back 1 year on tape. Furthermore, if any of these phones made a call, we have a CDR (Call Data Record) that will record information about the call (Location, time in call, number called, etc..). Some of the newer phones even receive/transmit GPS signals to the tower. This is used primarily for 911, but it's called "Location Based Services". Some advertising companies have expressed interest. We can pin point down to a couple of feet, from what I hear in the field."

Yes and others noting the fact that the cost would be astronomical to provide the processing power and raw storage for that massive amt of data. The industry experts said it isn't logged, which is more credible than someone posting anon on a blog that 'their company does it'. I know for a fact that the other posts saying the costs would be ginormous to house that amt of data is 100% correct. A huge expense that offers no cost benefit to the company.

The SW states clearly the first ping was from a call, not from the device being powered on. That leads me to believe they don't have any non-call ping log.

It's a toss up for sure as to if the phone was powered on or not, but to state as a fact it was because of the lack of pings is simply not accurate.

[alterEgo©]

Cellular providers, including Verizon Wireless and Cingular Wireless, know, within about 300 yards, the location of their subscribers whenever a phone is turned on. Even if the phone is not in use, it still communicates with cell tower sites, and the wireless provider keeps track of the phone's position as it travels. Cell phone GPS tracking is one of those advances. Cell phone companies can track a customer's movements by identifying the cell tower or towers through which his calls were handled.

http://www.pagerank10.co.uk/mobile_phones/gps_cell_phone_tracking/

Hope this helps...........:laugh:

From your link:

Cell phone tracking capability is coming into play for the first time

Hope this helps.........:tonguewag:

I don't believe Jason's phones had GPS anyway, which is the guts of your link.

[alterEgo©]

I read an interesting article recently on the right to remain silent and it's implications. I admit I didn't read the whole thing but the premise was interesting.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:GMY6dI5BaO8J:myweb.uiowa.edu/sbibas/Documents/The%2520Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent/Right%2520to%2520Remain%2520Silent%25204.doc+guilt y+remain+silent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

And this is fascinating.

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

[Jester]

emphasis mine.
We don't know if his phone was off.

Pings hitting towers with no call activity may or may not be historically logged. We don't know if Jason's carrier logged the info so LE either has that info or they don't.

Bottom line: Jason's phone was off during the night OR he did not receive or make any calls during that time frame of no pings.

Sils

If a phone is turned on, it pings. BSN posted a link above, and from reading missing person's cases (Drew Sjodin comes to mind) I know this is one way that search areas are identified.

[Jester]

Paranoid about police persecution are your words not mine.

In my real world people are people and some of them are trustworthy and some are not. A good lawyer will have a healthy knowledge that not all LE are trustworthy.

Sils

Within context of the original remark, I do not agree that lawyers distrust police, or that this alleged distrust has anything to do with reasons why a lawyer would advise a client to remain mute.

[Jester]

From your link:

Cell phone tracking capability is coming into play for the first time

Hope this helps.........:tonguewag:

I don't believe Jason's phones had GPS anyway, which is the guts of your link.

Drew was murdered in 2004, and her phone was pinging in a field because it was turned on. It stopped pinging when the battery went dead. If Drew's personal phone was capable of pinging in 2004, then it's highly likely that Jason's work phones were pinging in 2006.

[alterEgo©]

If a phone is turned on, it pings. BSN posted a link above, and from reading missing person's cases (Drew Sjodin comes to mind) I know this is one way that search areas are identified.
Of course the cell phone pings. The question is, are the pings from non-calls logged and saved. Until e911, the only way to get a triangulation on a location of the cell phone of a missing person was to call or text their phone, as in the case of Kelsey Smith.

[Jester]

Of course the cell phone pings. The question is, are the pings from non-calls logged and saved. Until e911, the only way to get a triangulation on a location of the cell phone of a missing person was to call or text their phone, as in the case of Kelsey Smith.

The point, of course, is to argue that Jason's phone may have been turned on, but may not have had GPS pinging, and, if it did, the cell phone towers were not keeping a record of the pings?

All this to try to argue that he was at the hotel and the invisible phone means nothing?

[Silsbee]

If a phone is turned on, it pings. BSN posted a link above, and from reading missing person's cases (Drew Sjodin comes to mind) I know this is one way that search areas are identified.

Yes it pings but those pings are not necessarily recorded and saved by cell phone carriers. BSN's link was more about GPS which is a more recent technology and not readily available on phones in 2006. Plus they still referenced tracking pings made by phone calls not just pings.

In the case of a missing person those pings are being monitored in real time. Jason's phone was not being monitored the night Michelle was murdered. We are talking about going back and retrieving those pings after the fact. If in 2006 Jason's carrier did not store that info LE would not be able to retrieve it.

Sils

[alterEgo©]

Drew was murdered in 2004, and her phone was pinging in a field because it was turned on. It stopped pinging when the battery went dead. If Drew's personal phone was capable of pinging in 2004, then it's highly likely that Jason's work phones were pinging in 2006.Again, it's not a question as to if the cell phone pings when it's on. Of course it does. It's a question as to if the non-call pings are logged and saved. It was my understanding they called the phone to triangulate the location as a ping can show up to 5 towers depending on the location.

[alterEgo©]

The point, of course, is to argue that Jason's phone may have been turned on, but may not have had GPS pinging, and, if it did, the cell phone towers were not keeping a record of the pings?

All this to try to argue that he was at the hotel and the invisible phone means nothing?
Where are you getting that Jason's phones had GPS?

And no that is not the argument. The argument was succinctly laid out by Sils.

[alterEgo©]

Yes it pings but those pings are not necessarily recorded and saved by cell phone carriers. BSN's link was more about GPS which is a more recent technology and not readily available on phones in 2006. Plus they still referenced tracking pings made by phone calls not just pings.

In the case of a missing person those pings are being monitored in real time. Jason's phone was not being monitored the night Michelle was murdered. We are talking about going back and retrieving those pings after the fact. If in 2006 Jason's carrier did not store that info LE would not be able to retrieve it.

Sils

That's it in a nutshell.

[kingbuff]

And this is fascinating.

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html


You found it, AE. Thanks. I have just spent 30 minutes or so looking for that link. This is the link I recommend to all those who think the innocent should talk....not that it will convince anyone here to change his mind.

[kingbuff]

This board is educational....if you're interested in phones and pings. I know more now than I did earlier today. Thanks.

[alterEgo©]

You found it, AE. Thanks. I have just spent 30 minutes or so looking for that link. This is the link I recommend to all those who think the innocent should talk....not that it will convince anyone here to change his mind.
Well, some people have forgotten their history and why the founding fathers saw fit to grant us this right. It certainly wasn't put there to give the state a water test.

[Stellagant]

That's completely false. Lawyers and police move in the same circles, along with Judges and prosecutors. Lawyers rely on police, and trust them as colleagues.

I can't imagine why you would suggest that lawyers don't trust police. If a lawyer tells a client to remain silent, it is because the lawyer knows that the client's words could lead to a conviction. There is no other reason for a client to be told to be mute.

I can't imagine where you get the idea that defense lawyers view police as their colleagues or even trust them. No lawyer I know would advise anyone to speak to a homicide detective without legal counsel present.

[Stellagant]

I have another question regarding phone calls. Why did he not call the hospital to tell them he would be late or got lost? I mean, it would have been the responsible thing to do.

How do you know he didn't call the hospital?

[Barbara2]

I think they only outlined the calls they wanted to. I,m sure there were more. In the 28 calls to his mom how do we know how many really connected? LE does but I noticed they didn't tell us. I bet LE was able to track his every move that day by the calls he made and recieved.

And with that information that they have that we do not have, they are calling him the primary suspect. I think that should tell you something. IMO

[janesdeaan]

Too bad Cassidy wasn't a bit older at the time of the murder, sadly, she was in the home when her mother was murdered and could have possibly helped put the scumbag responsible away forever.

Bill would guide child testimony

A measure passed by the House would tell judges how to handle child witnesses and when video testimony is OK. Judges can already allow video testimony for children who are afraid of the accused. But no standard exists in North Carolina to govern when such testimony is appropriate. The bill that cleared the House in a 117-0 vote would
require judges to conduct a hearing to determine whether the child would be traumatized and whether fear would inhibit testimony in a criminal case.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/story/1427941.html

[kingbuff]

And with that information that they have that we do not have, they are calling him the primary suspect. I think that should tell you something. IMO

Hi. I've been researching, trying to find the "they" who called him the primary suspect. Do you have the reference handy?

[kingbuff]

Pg 21 of the last SW states that they cannot rule JY out and that he REMAINS the PRIMARY suspect.

This tells me that the fact that he is the primary suspect isn't new. Most of us knew it wasn't.

Okay. Thanks. Can't rule him out and evidently can't rule him in. You think the cops have ruled out everyone else? How do you think they did that? Search warrants for computers and phones and shoes and such?

[5swab5]

Okay. Thanks. Can't rule him out and evidently can't rule him in. You think the cops have ruled out everyone else? How do you think they did that? Search warrants for computers and phones and shoes and such?

I realize that it is a foreign concept to some, but innocent people can be and ARE ruled out all the time, by cooperating with LE. MOO

[Stellagant]

True...I guess I don't know that. Since they were outlining all of his calls that day, I would think they would have mentioned it. Or, in the part of the SW specifically about the hospital and arriving 35 minutes late. It really isn't that relevant -- other than to give another tower ping/location, but it just would have been the responsible thing to do.

But they didn't outline ALL his calls that day. A search warrant isn't intended to include everything. I don't know too many people who get lost and know how long it will take them to get back on track.

[Kat4Eagles]

KB my thoughts exactly. People keep saying all the warrants have been toward JY and yet we have seen no evidence other than an affair. No blood in his car , no size 10 shoes ,no diamond ring , Wouldn't you think LE would want to look somewhere else for it?


Hi Confused..:)

I just hope it wasn't too late before they realized this case would be so hard to prove.
I hope valuable evidence was not missed or lost.
Kinda hard to go back now.
Gosh, I wonder what the hold-up is.
:shrug:
Kat

[awareness]

Its MO Jason had his cell phone turned off during the time of the murder, but until I know all the findings from the cell phone provider (all of which I dont believe have been released yet) we wont know 100%. Also - Im sure LE got the phone records long ago.

JMO

[awareness]

KB my thoughts exactly. People keep saying all the warrants have been toward JY and yet we have seen no evidence other than an affair. No blood in his car , no size 10 shoes ,no diamond ring , Wouldn't you think LE would want to look somewhere else for it?

It would be naieve to think the public has been told all of the evidence LE has.

JMO

[awareness]

Yes it tells me that they are calling him the prime suspect not the only suspect because there are others LE is looking at.

What "others" are LE looking at? Link to prove LE is looking at others?
JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I realize that it is a foreign concept to some, but innocent people can be and ARE ruled out all the time, by cooperating with LE. MOO


Jason did cooperate , to some extent, at least.

He returned to Raleigh later that nite, in the same vehicle he left in, he provided police with his alibi where he was at the time of the murder, whether he handed them the receipt from the Hampton, or it was found in his car,and, he submitted to all the tests that they later ordered him to.

He even stayed around Raleigh for a week or so after, which I did not even know until it was recently posted.

Never once has he tried to run, he has has plent of opportunity to re~locate, and has made his residences available.

Had any of those tests shown marks or scratches indictive of being in a struggle, this could be over.

Kat

[Tia]

It would be naieve to think the public has been told all of the evidence LE has.

JMO

You are so right. I bet we are only seeing 1/4 of what LE has. I would love to know what the DA is waiting for though!

[Kat4Eagles]

It would be naieve to think the public has been told all of the evidence LE has.

JMO

Or naive to believe some of the rumors.

Kat

[5swab5]

But they didn't outline ALL his calls that day. A search warrant isn't intended to include everything. I don't know too many people who get lost and know how long it will take them to get back on track.

He could have always asked them for directions. :shrug: He had 5 maps, a couple of phones and a laptop in his car. No excuse for being late to a meeting that he started out the day before to get to.

Of course, with 28 phone calls to mommie that day...by 1:37PM, he might not have had time to call about his job. And then there is Michelle Money, and she has to be checked in on an average of 30 times a day....MOO

[Tia]

KB my thoughts exactly. People keep saying all the warrants have been toward JY and yet we have seen no evidence other than an affair. No blood in his car , no size 10 shoes ,no diamond ring , Wouldn't you think LE would want to look somewhere else for it?


........No fighting for his daughter, no response to the WDS, no response when Linda tried to call him on the day Michelle was found, even though she was pregnant and he tried her work phone and cell phone, No call to the house that day..etc.........


JMO

[Tia]

He could have always asked them for directions. :shrug: He had 5 maps, a couple of phones and a laptop in his car. No excuse for being late to a meeting that he started out the day before to get to.

Of course, with 28 phone calls to mommie that day...by 1:37PM, he might not have had time to call about his job. And then there is Michelle Money, and she has to be checked in on an average of 30 times a day....MOO


Its not like he didn't have access to a phone thats for sure!!!

So, I wonder how he would explain away not answering Linda's calls? And Pat talked to him 28 times before 1:37, but didn't mention that he had an emergency at home???

[Kat4Eagles]

He could have always asked them for directions. :shrug: He had 5 maps, a couple of phones and a laptop in his car. No excuse for being late to a meeting that he started out the day before to get to.

Of course, with 28 phone calls to mommie that day...by 1:37PM, he might not have had time to call about his job. And then there is Michelle Money, and she has to be checked in on an average of 30 times a day....MOO


I checked out the directions.....Hillsville to Clintwood, courtesy of Google.
145 miles-about 2 hours +47 minutes
Turn on the ramp I-77 N
Take the exit onto 1-81 S
Take Exit 19 for US-58/US-11 toward Abington/Damascus
Turn right at E Main St/US 11
Turn right at Russell Road NW
Turn right ar US-19/US 58
Turn left at US 58
Take Exit 1 to merge onto Front St. W/VA-158/Va-72
Turn left at Laurel Ave.VA/72
Turn left at Cranes Nest Rd/Va-72
Turn left to stay on Va-72
Turn right at Va-83
Turn right at VA-9699
Destination will be on the left.
Dickenson Community Hospital
312 Hospital Dr. Clintwood
***These directions are for planning purposes only. You may find that construction projects, traffic, weather or other events may cause conditions to differ from map results, and you should plan your route accordingly. *****
So. I wonder what traffic conditions were like approx 7am-10 am that day.....
And, it wasn't like it was all a straight highway either, looks tricky.

Kat

[Tia]

Reading the 11/6/08 warrant again and seeing "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" is very eerie.

"hopefully" there will never be an arrest. Would an innocent man say this?

IMO, no.


http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

Jason Young - “Recall what we were discussing, it was YOUR statement that Roger was somehow benefiting financially by this being drawn out. That is simply WRONG and is an assumption on your part that is based on nothing. The FACT is, there is a set amount for this investigative process. PERIOD. If this investigation lasts 3 months or 2 years, he doesn’t “benefit “from the longevity. His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest.

[kingbuff]

Its not like he didn't have access to a phone thats for sure!!!

So, I wonder how he would explain away not answering Linda's calls? And Pat talked to him 28 times before 1:37, but didn't mention that he had an emergency at home???

Careful now. This is how rumors get started. You don't know if, when, nor how often Jason talked to his mom. I think you should make that clear to lurkers who just read. Don't you?

Not talking to Linda? That's simple. He didn't want to. You've never ducked calls you didn't want to take? Fairly common, I think. I think you should make that clear, also. And by the way, why was Linda so eager to break the bad news to a man alone in his car miles from home? Would you do that?

[Tia]

Careful now. This is how rumors get started. You don't know if, when, nor how often Jason talked to his mom. I think you should make that clear to lurkers who just read. Don't you?

Not talking to Linda? That's simple. He didn't want to. You've never ducked calls you didn't want to take? Fairly common, I think. I think you should make that clear, also. And by the way, why was Linda so eager to break the bad news to a man alone in his car miles from home? Would you do that?

Just reading what it says in the SW KB. The SW states "28 calls between Jason and Pat Young". Hope that clarifies things for the "lurkers".

I would think, since his wife was pregnant and he had tried her office and her cell and got no answer, he'd be very concerned if he saw a call from his MIL.


And we don't know what Linda was going to tell him, maybe just that there was an emergency and he needed to get home. I think you should make that clear for all the lurkers here who just read. Don't you?

[kingbuff]

I checked out the directions.....Hillsville to Clintwood, courtesy of Google.
145 miles-about 2 hours +47 minutes
Turn on the ramp I-77 N
Take the exit onto 1-81 S
Take Exit 19 for US-58/US-11 toward Abington/Damascus
Turn right at E Main St/US 11
Turn right at Russell Road NW
Turn right ar US-19/US 58
Turn left at US 58
Take Exit 1 to merge onto Front St. W/VA-158/Va-72
Turn left at Laurel Ave.VA/72
Turn left at Cranes Nest Rd/Va-72
Turn left to stay on Va-72
Turn right at Va-83
Turn right at VA-9699
Destination will be on the left.
Dickenson Community Hospital
312 Hospital Dr. Clintwood
***These directions are for planning purposes only. You may find that construction projects, traffic, weather or other events may cause conditions to differ from map results, and you should plan your route accordingly. *****
So. I wonder what traffic conditions were like approx 7am-10 am that day.....
And, it wasn't like it was all a straight highway either, looks tricky.

Kat

Thanks, Kat. For me to follow those directions I would need a navigator sitting beside me. Five maps would do no good. I heard he did not have a voice computer/navigator in his car. That came up once before.

[Kat4Eagles]

[QUOTE=kingbuff;12855158][QUOTE=Tia;12855115]Reading the 11/6/08 warrant again and seeing "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" is very eerie.

"hopefully" there will never be an arrest. Would an innocent man say this?

IMO, no.

snipped QUOTE]

An innocent man did say it....
<snipped>

This is what happens when an case goes on so long !!
I think the end of the sentence would be,
"Hopefully there is never an arrest against me"
That is all he left off.!!
And, guess what? It is true!!
:)
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Thanks, Kat. For me to follow those directions I would need a navigator sitting beside me. Five maps would do no good. I heard he did not have a voice computer/navigator in his car. That came up once before.


YW, KB.and no telling where those 5 maps were for either,could have been anywhere.

I would like to know if Jason did run into any heavy traffic that day, or even if there was a detour...........

Kat

[Tia]

[QUOTE=Tia;12855115]Reading the 11/6/08 warrant again and seeing "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" is very eerie.

"hopefully" there will never be an arrest. Would an innocent man say this?

IMO, no.

snipped QUOTE]

An innocent man did say it....unless you accuse Roger of something. I think you should not confuse the lurkers. Regular readers understand your tricks.

I am allowed to post my opinion.

Harassing a posters, like in your comment above, is a violation of the TOS and is NOT allowed.

[kingbuff]

Just reading what it says in the SW KB. The SW states "28 calls between Jason and Pat Young". Hope that clarifies things for the "lurkers".

I would think, since his wife was pregnant and he had tried her office and her cell and got no answer, he'd be very concerned if he saw a call from his MIL.


And we don't know what Linda was going to tell him, maybe just that there was an emergency and he needed to get home. I think you should make that clear for all the lurkers here who just read. Don't you?


I think the lurkers can read clearly that the SW (search warrant) does not say Jason talked to his mom during those one-button calls. The cops know why his mom wasn't available to answer: they interviewed her.

Don't know how the lurkers (hi there!) see Linda's call. I would just say he thought he knew what she wanted to talk about and he wasn't interested in talking. That's usually why I avoid a call. That's why God gave us caller ID....or was that another AlGore invention? No, he just invented the internet and starving polar bears and....aw, it gets confusing. Lurkers will understand.

[Kat4Eagles]

Careful now. This is how rumors get started. You don't know if, when, nor how often Jason talked to his mom. I think you should make that clear to lurkers who just read. Don't you?

Not talking to Linda? That's simple. He didn't want to. You've never ducked calls you didn't want to take? Fairly common, I think. I think you should make that clear, also. And by the way, why was Linda so eager to break the bad news to a man alone in his car miles from home? Would you do that?

There sure is a lot to think about.

I am trying to picture where Jason was around 1:30 pm or so, he had been in Duffield around 12:30, right.?
Let me look.
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

There sure is a lot to think about.

I am trying to picture where Jason was around 1:30 pm or so, he had been in Duffield around 12:30, right.?
Let me look.
Kat

Hard to say without knowing, but somewhere around Johnson City, maybe.?
Duffield to Brevard is 139 miles, or 2 hours + 44 minutes...
I think it was posted Jason landed in Brevard around 3:30 ?
Timelines all fit.

Kat

[awareness]

Careful now. This is how rumors get started. You don't know if, when, nor how often Jason talked to his mom. I think you should make that clear to lurkers who just read. Don't you?

Not talking to Linda? That's simple. He didn't want to. You've never ducked calls you didn't want to take? Fairly common, I think. I think you should make that clear, also. And by the way, why was Linda so eager to break the bad news to a man alone in his car miles from home? Would you do that?

I didnt feel she was trying to "start rumors" with her post. Im sure LE has the cell records already and can easily tell what was a normal calling pattern with his mother and mother in law. We'll know more as its revealed to us, in the form of released SW's, other news reports or perhaps a trial.

Its MO that its likely 28 calls to his mother was out of the ordinary, more than usual, but again, we'll know if that's a fact or not AFTER the info is released to us.

Of course he didnt want to talk to Linda. MO He'd just killed her daughter and soon to be born grandson, why would he want to face her?

JMO

[kingbuff]

[QUOTE=kingbuff;12855158]

I am allowed to post my opinion.

Harassing a posters, like in your comment above, is a violation of the TOS and is NOT allowed.

Got a deal for you: we put each other on iggy. I think that's what CW suggests in situations like this. #6. Soon I'll be talking to myself and lurkers.

[awareness]

Or naive to believe some of the rumors.

Kat

I agree, like the one that Meredith is somehow culpable for the crime.
JMO

[awareness]

Jason did cooperate , to some extent, at least.

He returned to Raleigh later that nite, in the same vehicle he left in, he provided police with his alibi where he was at the time of the murder, whether he handed them the receipt from the Hampton, or it was found in his car,and, he submitted to all the tests that they later ordered him to.

He even stayed around Raleigh for a week or so after, which I did not even know until it was recently posted.

Never once has he tried to run, he has has plent of opportunity to re~locate, and has made his residences available.

Had any of those tests shown marks or scratches indictive of being in a struggle, this could be over.

Kat

He sure did run, to his attorney and NO he has NOT cooperated in any way.

JMO

[Tia]

I didnt feel she was trying to "start rumors" with her post. Im sure LE has the cell records already and can easily tell what was a normal calling pattern with his mother and mother in law. We'll know more as its revealed to us, in the form of released SW's, other news reports or perhaps a trial.

Its MO that its likely 28 calls to his mother was out of the ordinary, more than usual, but again, we'll know if that's a fact or not AFTER the info is released to us.

Of course he didnt want to talk to Linda. MO He'd just killed her daughter and soon to be born grandson, why would he want to face her?

JMO

You aren't the only one who found the 28 calls to be out of the ordinary!!

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

A further examination of Jason Young’s cell phone records revealed trends and data that are of interest in the investigation of this case. Jason Young recorded the following calls to his mother, Pat Young during the thirty days prior to and including, the homicide:
October 4 2006 — 1 call
October 5 2006 — 5 calls
October 6 2006 — 3 calls
October 11 2006 —2 calls
October 12 2006 — 1 call
October 13 2006 —4 calls
October 15 2006 — 5 calls
October 16 2006 —9 calls
October 17 2006 — 1 call
October 18 2006 — 5 calls
October 19 2006 —6 calls
October 20 2006 — 3 calls
October 21 2006 — 1 call
October 22 2006 —2 calls
October 24 2006 — 10 calls
October 26 2006 —5 calls
October 28 2006 — 3 calls
October 30 2006 — 1 call
October 3l 2006 — 1 call
November 1st, 2006 — 1 call
November 2 2006 — 6 calls
November 3 2006 — 28 calls

The twenty-eight calls between Jason and Pat Young were not the norm according to the records. In addition, the twenty-eight calls all occurred prior to 1:37 pm. After 1:37 on November 3 2006 all calls between Jason Young and Pat Young ceased.

[awareness]

You aren't the only one who found the 28 calls to be out of the ordinary!!

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

A further examination of Jason Young’s cell phone records revealed trends and data that are of interest in the investigation of this case. Jason Young recorded the following calls to his mother, Pat Young during the thirty days prior to and including, the homicide:
October 4 2006 — 1 call
October 5 2006 — 5 calls
October 6 2006 — 3 calls
October 11 2006 —2 calls
October 12 2006 — 1 call
October 13 2006 —4 calls
October 15 2006 — 5 calls
October 16 2006 —9 calls
October 17 2006 — 1 call
October 18 2006 — 5 calls
October 19 2006 —6 calls
October 20 2006 — 3 calls
October 21 2006 — 1 call
October 22 2006 —2 calls
October 24 2006 — 10 calls
October 26 2006 —5 calls
October 28 2006 — 3 calls
October 30 2006 — 1 call
October 3l 2006 — 1 call
November 1st, 2006 — 1 call
November 2 2006 — 6 calls
November 3 2006 — 28 calls

The twenty-eight calls between Jason and Pat Young were not the norm according to the records. In addition, the twenty-eight calls all occurred prior to 1:37 pm. After 1:37 on November 3 2006 all calls between Jason Young and Pat Young ceased.

Thank you. See, already in the form of fact... they already have this info. Yes 28 calls was a lot.

JMO

[kingbuff]

Hard to say without knowing, but somewhere around Johnson City, maybe.?
Duffield to Brevard is 139 miles, or 2 hours + 44 minutes...
I think it was posted Jason landed in Brevard around 3:30 ?
Timelines all fit.

Kat

According to early posters, the last SW got the times wrong. Posters said he was at his mom's a few minutes before 3. He left for Raleigh about 4:15 according to those posters. Or....just trust the memory of the cops in the SW.

[Kat4Eagles]

According to early posters, the last SW got the times wrong. Posters said he was at his mom's a few minutes before 3. He left for Raleigh about 4:15 according to those posters. Or....just trust the memory of the cops in the SW.

Okay , thank you.
This is good to know.
Cause I see that it is almost a 5 hour trip from Brevard to Raleigh.
277 miles.
And, they may have hit some dinner time traffic or delays along the way, too.
:)
Kat

[5swab5]

Thanks, Kat. For me to follow those directions I would need a navigator sitting beside me. Five maps would do no good. I heard he did not have a voice computer/navigator in his car. That came up once before.

That's bull. I don't care how many turns there were, he left Raleigh the night before to get to the meeting.

NO excuse for being late. Except beating one's wife to death creates a bloody mess and a toddler will find a mess every time.MOO

[Leanne Weich]

That's bull. I don't care how many turns there were, he left Raleigh the night before to get to the meeting.

NO excuse for being late. Except beating one's wife to death creates a bloody mess and a toddler will find a mess every time.MOO

I don't know of any rep who just wings it to an important meeting if he doesn't know the route. But, then again, I don't know any rep who wouldn't phone if he was going to be late for a first meeting with a potential new customer either. Getting lost doesn't pass the smell test with me. JMOOC.

[Kat4Eagles]

I hope Jason racked up some frequent driving miles.

If Jason murdered Michelle, he drove
167 miles to Hillsville
167 miles to Raleigh
306 miles to Clintwood
183 miles to Brevard
277 miles to Raleigh
___________________________
1100 miles !!!!!!
in less than a 24 hour period....


Now,I don't know if Jason actually drove
back to Raleigh after learning of the murder so if you minus that trip (277) from the 1100 miles, he would have still drove 823 miles all by himself.

That is a wow to me.
Kat

[awareness]

If anything, the morning after the murder Jason was along random back roads to get rid of evidence. I dont buy the excuse of he got lost.

JMO

[Leanne Weich]

I hope Jason racked up some frequent driving miles.

If Jason murdered Michelle, he drove
167 miles to Hillsville
167 miles to Raleigh
306 miles to Clintwood
183 miles to Brevard
277 miles to Raleigh
___________________________
1100 miles !!!!!!
in less than a 24 hour period....


Now,I don't know if Jason actually drove
back to Raleigh after learning of the murder so if you minus that trip (277) from the 1100 miles, he would have still drove 823 miles all by himself.

That is a wow to me.
Kat

Not unusual for a rep, imo.

[Jester]

I can't imagine where you get the idea that defense lawyers view police as their colleagues or even trust them. No lawyer I know would advise anyone to speak to a homicide detective without legal counsel present.

Real life, of course. I'm not a criminal, so I'm not afraid of the police, my lawyer is not afraid of the police, my lawyer would advise me to go ahead and talk to the police if they have questions for me, and, generally speaking, we're all happy to cooperate with each other.

I'm pretty sure that regular law-abiding people have no qualms about speaking with police in the absence of a lawyer.

[Jester]

Okay. Thanks. Can't rule him out and evidently can't rule him in. You think the cops have ruled out everyone else? How do you think they did that? Search warrants for computers and phones and shoes and such?

I think solid alibis have ruled out most suspects. By solid alibi, I means an alibi that can be independently verified.

[awareness]

Not unusual for a rep, imo.

agreed. what is a wow for me is a man murdering his pregnant wife and unborn son.

JMO

[Barbara2]

I think solid alibis have ruled out most suspects. By solid alibi, I means an alibi that can be independently verified.

They can not rule out the possibility of an accomplice so that can't declare someone their "only" suspect. IMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I think solid alibis have ruled out most suspects. By solid alibi, I means an alibi that can be independently verified.


Then how are they ever going to explain if there is a bloody shoeprint, foorprint, palmprint, handprint that doesn't match Jason?

:biggrin:

Kat

[5swab5]

If anything, the morning after the murder Jason was along random back roads to get rid of evidence. I dont buy the excuse of he got lost.

JMO

ITA, and you know something else? At some point, instead of being rude, standing people up and wasting their time, if you are going to be so late for a meeting, it is better to not show up at all and just reschedule. Guess Jason wanted to be "at certain places at certain times" that day. No matter what. MOO

[kingbuff]

Real life, of course. I'm not a criminal, so I'm not afraid of the police, my lawyer is not afraid of the police, my lawyer would advise me to go ahead and talk to the police if they have questions for me, and, generally speaking, we're all happy to cooperate with each other.

I'm pretty sure that regular law-abiding people have no qualms about speaking with police in the absence of a lawyer.

I have qualms. If police indicate I am a suspect, I don't talk, especially if I am innocent.

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

[Kat4Eagles]

Not unusual for a rep, imo.

That would be a lot of driving even for a truck driver.
And, they have rest stop areas to take naps.
:biggrin:
Kat

[kingbuff]

I don't know of any rep who just wings it to an important meeting if he doesn't know the route. But, then again, I don't know any rep who wouldn't phone if he was going to be late for a first meeting with a potential new customer either. Getting lost doesn't pass the smell test with me. JMOOC.

You're going to cause lurkers to think that is true about the phone call.

[Jester]

I have qualms. If police indicate I am a suspect, I don't talk, especially if I am innocent.

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

Perhaps I'm naive, trusting, and undamaged enough by life that I still assume the best. If I have nothing to hide, and have no involvement in a crime, then I'm not concerned about speaking with the police. If I am a suspect, I expect it would be a rather uncomfortable and difficult interview, but I have faith that the truth would prevail. I'm sorry that some people have had bad experiences in life, but I wouldn't alter my judgment and belief system based on someone else's unfortunate experience.

Some people climb mountains and fall off, others don't. Fortunately, the fact that one or two people have fallen off a mountain has not discouraged all people from mountain climbing.

[Stellagant]

Real life, of course. I'm not a criminal, so I'm not afraid of the police, my lawyer is not afraid of the police, my lawyer would advise me to go ahead and talk to the police if they have questions for me, and, generally speaking, we're all happy to cooperate with each other.

I'm pretty sure that regular law-abiding people have no qualms about speaking with police in the absence of a lawyer.

I never said anything about being afraid of police. Sounds like you have more to fear from your lawyer if he'd advise you to talk to the police without the lawyer being present. Especially if the conversation was about a homicide.

[Kat4Eagles]

ITA, and you know something else? At some point, instead of being rude, standing people up and wasting their time, if you are going to be so late for a meeting, it is better to not show up at all and just reschedule. Guess Jason wanted to be "at certain places at certain times" that day. No matter what. MOO


How do we know Jason didn't call ahead?

If Michelle hadn't been murdered while Jason was out of town, his being early or late would mean nothing.

Let's look at it the other way, what if he had got there real early, with the intentions of using that for part of his alibi?

I am telling you, this guy can not get a break.
:biggrin:

Kat

[Jester]

I never said anything about being afraid of police. Sounds like you have more to fear from your lawyer if he'd advise you to talk to the police without the lawyer being present. Especially if the conversation was about a homicide.

The moon will turn green before I am even remotely associated with a list of murder suspects. I stand by my position that police and lawyers work closely together. If a client is innocent, and has information relevant to a murder investigation but is concerned about the outcome, that client has the right to have a lawyer present. Jason had information relevant to a murder investigation, but declined to provide routine information to the police even with a lawyer present. That's certainly his right, but he had a responsibility to his wife and daughter ... and he undoubtedly shirked that responsibility.

ETA: It was KB who said yesterday that lawyers don't trust police, and that is the origin of this discussion

[Kat4Eagles]

Perhaps I'm naive, trusting, and undamaged enough by life that I still assume the best. If I have nothing to hide, and have no involvement in a crime, then I'm not concerned about speaking with the police. If I am a suspect, I expect it would be a rather uncomfortable and difficult interview, but I have faith that the truth would prevail. I'm sorry that some people have had bad experiences in life, but I wouldn't alter my judgment and belief system based on someone else's unfortunate experience.

Some people climb mountains and fall off, others don't. Fortunately, the fact that one or two people have fallen off a mountain has not discouraged all people from mountain climbing.

Here is the problem with that, Jester.
The minute Michelle was found dead, Jason was a suspect.
Before he ever even got back to Raleigh, while he was still on the road, during his driving marathon, he was a suspect.

He knew it, friends called to tell him, and he knew he was in trouble, unless every answer he gave was perfect, every minute of where he was would be scrutinized, and righfully so.

So, he can't prove he was asleep.
And, apparently, L E can't prove he wasn't.

Then there is MM, it didn't take long to find out about her.

So, his lawyer says be quiet and that is exactly what he does.
And, has been doing for 28+ months.
Seems to be working for him.

Kat

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I have qualms. If police indicate I am a suspect, I don't talk, especially if I am innocent.

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

Have you got your STOP SNITCHING teeshirt yet? If not, I'm sure you can drive over to Asheville and buy one from one of the street gang members. IMO:rolleyes:

[5swab5]

I have qualms. If police indicate I am a suspect, I don't talk, especially if I am innocent.(snipped)

Very few people would carry their silence to the extremes that Jason has.

Being declared Michelle and Rylan's slayer and ceding PRIMARY custody of his only daughter are not small consequences of his actions. I doubt there is another one on record. MOO

[BSNBREVARDNC]

But here is what a real lawyer says about this situation.

"Other North Carolina defense attorneys, however, acknowledge the suspicion that comes with a spouse’s silence, and that investigators are following standard procedure when seeking information from people closest to the victim.

“Whenever a spouse is murdered under suspicious circumstances, one of the first people police are going to look at is the other spouse. You have to tell your client that that’s to be expected, that they ought not be defensive about that.” said David Rudolf, a prominent defense attorney who represented Michael Peterson in 2003.

“That’s just the way it works, and partly it’s because in many, many situations, it is the spouse who did the crime,” Rudolf said."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/

[kingbuff]

Have you got your STOP SNITCHING teeshirt yet? If not, I'm sure you can drive over to Asheville and buy one from one of the street gang members. IMO:rolleyes:

Maybe later someone will explain this to me.

[Tia]

Very few people would carry their silence to the extremes that Jason has.

Being declared Michelle and Rylan's slayer and ceding PRIMARY custody of his only daughter are not small consequences of his actions. I doubt there is another one on record. MOO

No Swabby, its because he can't trust the cops! Don't you get it?? They were out to frame him from day one!!!

[kingbuff]

But here is what a real lawyer says about this situation.

"Other North Carolina defense attorneys, however, acknowledge the suspicion that comes with a spouse’s silence, and that investigators are following standard procedure when seeking information from people closest to the victim.

“Whenever a spouse is murdered under suspicious circumstances, one of the first people police are going to look at is the other spouse. You have to tell your client that that’s to be expected, that they ought not be defensive about that.” said David Rudolf, a prominent defense attorney who represented Michael Peterson in 2003.

“That’s just the way it works, and partly it’s because in many, many situations, it is the spouse who did the crime,” Rudolf said."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/


I think I understand that. How did it work out for Michael?

[Tia]

But here is what a real lawyer says about this situation.

"Other North Carolina defense attorneys, however, acknowledge the suspicion that comes with a spouse’s silence, and that investigators are following standard procedure when seeking information from people closest to the victim.

“Whenever a spouse is murdered under suspicious circumstances, one of the first people police are going to look at is the other spouse. You have to tell your client that that’s to be expected, that they ought not be defensive about that.” said David Rudolf, a prominent defense attorney who represented Michael Peterson in 2003.

“That’s just the way it works, and partly it’s because in many, many situations, it is the spouse who did the crime,” Rudolf said."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/

Thanks BSN. Thats a statistic that anyone who has followed spousal murder cases knows all too well.

Those who will be "heartbroken" when Jason is finally arrested, are those who refuse to look at the facts and statistics, IMO.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Maybe later someone will explain this to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Snitchin%27

[kingbuff]

The moon will turn green before I am even remotely associated with a list of murder suspects. I stand by my position that police and lawyers work closely together. If a client is innocent, and has information relevant to a murder investigation but is concerned about the outcome, that client has the right to have a lawyer present. Jason had information relevant to a murder investigation, but declined to provide routine information to the police even with a lawyer present. That's certainly his right, but he had a responsibility to his wife and daughter ... and he undoubtedly shirked that responsibility.

ETA: It was KB who said yesterday that lawyers don't trust police, and that is the origin of this discussion

Lawyers know better than anyone how routine information can be twisted. A lawyer cannot protect a person who talks. An innocent person needs protection from the cops. In many cases, his only protection is his right to silence. Jason has refused to give up that right. I don't see why you nor the police would have a problem with that.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I think I understand that. How did it work out for Michael?

"Rudolf's former client, Michael Peterson, refused to cooperate with investigators in the murder of his wife, Kathleen. Peterson now sits in prison, sentenced to life without the possibility of parole."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/

[Leanne Weich]

That would be a lot of driving even for a truck driver.
And, they have rest stop areas to take naps.
:biggrin:
Kat

We're talking about sales reps not truck drivers. Most sales reps I know (and I know plenty as my DH is Marketing Director for a multi-national company) don't travel such a short distance to overnight to then travel another relatively short distance the following day. They seem to prefer spending the night with their family and setting off very early in the a.m. Then again, none of them have been named the primary suspect in a murder case, nor have any of their wives been murdered. Admittedly, some of them have had affairs though.

[Kat4Eagles]

But here is what a real lawyer says about this situation.

"Other North Carolina defense attorneys, however, acknowledge the suspicion that comes with a spouse’s silence, and that investigators are following standard procedure when seeking information from people closest to the victim.

“Whenever a spouse is murdered under suspicious circumstances, one of the first people police are going to look at is the other spouse. You have to tell your client that that’s to be expected, that they ought not be defensive about that.” said David Rudolf, a prominent defense attorney who represented Michael Peterson in 2003.

“That’s just the way it works, and partly it’s because in many, many situations, it is the spouse who did the crime,” Rudolf said."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/

Great, this is the same David Rudolf that helped Rae Carruth from getting Murder One to only a conspiracy to murder charge.
:rolleyes:

Kat

[Leanne Weich]

You're going to cause lurkers to think that is true about the phone call.

Quite honestly, who cares what lurkers think? If they are sufficiently interested in this case I dare say they'll read the SWs and draw their own conclusions as to whether they think Jason phoned his prospective customer to tell them he was lost or was ditching bloody clothing (the latter scenario being m.o. of course).

[5swab5]

Lawyers know better than anyone how routine information can be twisted. A lawyer cannot protect a person who talks. An innocent person needs protection from the cops. In many cases, his only protection is his right to silence. Jason has refused to give up that right. I don't see why you nor the police would have a problem with that.


An innocent man does not need to hide behind his lawyer or his mommie when his wife and unborn son are slaughtered.

But a guilty man does and he will even toss his little daughter out in front to save his own skin. MOO

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Great, this is the same David Rudolf that helped Rae Carruth from getting Murder One to only a conspiracy to murder charge.
:rolleyes:

Kat

No, this is the same David Rudolf that represented Rae Carruth when a jury helped him get a conviction of conspiracy to murder charge but not murder even when the murder actually happened. :confused:

And that's why the Panthers have had such a problem recruiting. They don't overlook criminal records. It could be worse, they could be like the Cowboys and only recruit players with criminal records.:ohmy:

[Leanne Weich]

Very few people would carry their silence to the extremes that Jason has.

Being declared Michelle and Rylan's slayer and ceding PRIMARY custody of his only daughter are not small consequences of his actions. I doubt there is another one on record. MOO

While legally Jason is well within his rights to remain silent, morally, his silence is repugnant, imo.

He has clearly exhibited his total lack of regard for Michelle, Rylan, Cassidy and every member of his family, imo. Then again, I don't think morals and Jason should ever be contemplated in the same sentence. JMVUHO.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

What do you want JY to talk about? He told LE where he was. He took their tests they wanted him to take. Evidently they don't believe him or they wouldn't keep serving him with warrants. Do you think he could talk them into believing he was asleep in a motel room? My opinion is no. I hope he never talks to them.

He told LE where he was. Not according to the SW.

He took their tests they wanted him to take. Under an order from the court

I hope he never talks to them.If he is the killer, do you hope he gets away with it? Just asking for clarification. I'm not trying to be rude. I just wonder where people really stand.

[Kat4Eagles]

No, this is the same David Rudolf that represented Rae Carruth when a jury helped him get a conviction of conspiracy to murder charge but not murder even when the murder actually happened. :confused:

And that's why the Panthers have had such a problem recruiting. They don't overlook criminal records. It could be worse, they could be like the Cowboys and only recruit players with criminal records.:ohmy:

I know, I was very disappointed in the verdict, and wanted Murder One with the DP!!
I know many considered it a compromised verdict.
Now, that was a fascinating case to follow, and Carruth's g/f posted right here !!
I wish I had been here then.
And, not to go too off topic, but
.....:rose:...Condolences to the Corey Smith family from NCState

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I know, I was very disappointed in the verdict, and wanted Murder One with the DP!!
I know many considered it a compromised verdict.
Now, that was a fascinating case to follow, and Carruth's g/f posted right here !!
I wish I had been here then.
And, not to go too off topic, but
.....:rose:...Condolences to the Corey Smith family from NCState

The boating accident was so sad especially with the updated info.

[kingbuff]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Snitchin%27

Thanks. I think I've got it.

"They say that snitches are people who give the government favorable testimony in exchange for a plea bargain, money, or some other kind of reward. They point out that these snitches tend to embellish the truth and lie if necessary. According to a study by Northwestern University Law School's Center on Wrongful Convictions informants are responsible for 46% of wrongful capital convictions from false testimony."

I don't know any snitches, but maybe these people who lie do need stitches.

[kingbuff]

"Rudolf's former client, Michael Peterson, refused to cooperate with investigators in the murder of his wife, Kathleen. Peterson now sits in prison, sentenced to life without the possibility of parole."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/


Moral of this story: The guilty should cooperate. Peterson should have listened to his lawyer.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Thanks. I think I've got it.

"They say that snitches are people who give the government favorable testimony in exchange for a plea bargain, money, or some other kind of reward. They point out that these snitches tend to embellish the truth and lie if necessary. According to a study by Northwestern University Law School's Center on Wrongful Convictions informants are responsible for 46% of wrongful capital convictions from false testimony."

I don't know any snitches, but maybe these people who lie do need stitches.

Thanks. I think I've got it.

If I see someone robbing your house, I'm not snitching. Have I got your message right?

[5swab5]

While legally Jason is well within his rights to remain silent, morally, his silence is repugnant, imo.

He has clearly exhibited his total lack of regard for Michelle, Rylan, Cassidy and every member of his family, imo. Then again, I don't think morals and Jason should ever be contemplated in the same sentence. JMVUHO.

Oh, I understand it is his right. But then allowing himself to be declared a slayer and losing PRIMARY custody of Cassidy? Seems like pretty drastic consequences for an innocent man to endure.

One reason it has always bothered me, is that we were told from almost the beginning that Jason had held onto his dad's boat all these years. Like it was a very special thing to him.

Well, Mr. Young gave Jason something much more valuable and Jason has destroyed it. Robert gave Jason his good name and I just can't see Jason allowing the stigma of slayer to be associated with it, if he had any choice. MOO

[kingbuff]

Quite honestly, who cares what lurkers think? If they are sufficiently interested in this case I dare say they'll read the SWs and draw their own conclusions as to whether they think Jason phoned his prospective customer to tell them he was lost or was ditching bloody clothing (the latter scenario being m.o. of course).

Well, of course....but it would be sweet of you to give lurkers a hint at least to help them find the info about that non-phone-call that you invented.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

What SW warrant are you talking about? Its been my understanding JY told LE the night he returned to Raleigh where he had been. IF he hadn't told them then how did they know to get the pictures from the motel? Did they just start up the road checking motels till they found the right one?
Doesn't matter how he took the test he did take them. IIRC LE stated the order for the test was standard procedure.
No I don't hope the killer goes free and I don't believe for a second the killers are free now because JY hasn't talked.
If solving a murder case depends on the killers talking then how do LE ever solve a murder case?
Last but not least I don't believe for a second he killed his wife.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf

On the 4th page where it starts out with "As of this date..." Sorry, I don't know how to cut and paste a pdf file.

[Leanne Weich]

Well, of course....but it would be sweet of you to give lurkers a hint at least to help them find the info about that non-phone-call that you invented.

I didn't invent anything. I merely posted my interpretation of the SW which is my right. I'm clearly not sweet because I have no intention now, or ever, of spoon feeding lurkers.

[kingbuff]

He told LE where he was. Not according to the SW.

He took their tests they wanted him to take. Under an order from the court

I hope he never talks to them.If he is the killer, do you hope he gets away with it? Just asking for clarification. I'm not trying to be rude. I just wonder where people really stand.

Tell her how to get one of the 'step up and speak out' tees from Fox.

By the way, once the cops indicated they believed Jason lied about where he was that night, why would he tell them anything else? If they believe his alibi is a lie, why talk to them? I wouldn't.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Tell her how to get one of the 'step up and speak out' tees from Fox.

By the way, once the cops indicated they believed Jason lied about where he was that night, why would he tell them anything else? If they believe his alibi is a lie, why talk to them? I wouldn't.

Finally, a post that is relevant to the case at hand. Thank you.

"The purpose of Step Up Speak Out is to challenge how young men and women think about gender violence and dating violence..."

http://www.stepupspeakout.com/main.php

[kingbuff]

Finally, a post that is relevant to the case at hand. Thank you.

"The purpose of Step Up Speak Out is to challenge how young men and women think about gender violence and dating violence..."

http://www.stepupspeakout.com/main.php

Your other link said 'Step Up' was a Fox reaction to 'Stop Snitchin'. Maybe some woman hijacked the tee for another purpose.

[awareness]

Tia, I think you have finally got it.

Im sure Tia can speak for herself but yes she's had it for a long time. She knows Jason is guilty.

JMO

[awareness]

What SW warrant are you talking about? Its been my understanding JY told LE the night he returned to Raleigh where he had been. IF he hadn't told them then how did they know to get the pictures from the motel? Did they just start up the road checking motels till they found the right one?
Doesn't matter how he took the test he did take them. IIRC LE stated the order for the test was standard procedure.
No I don't hope the killer goes free and I don't believe for a second the killers are free now because JY hasn't talked.
If solving a murder case depends on the killers talking then how do LE ever solve a murder case?
Last but not least I don't believe for a second he killed his wife.


oh LOL cause yesterday Confused, you chastised me for not knowing the SW's inside and out.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Your other link said 'Step Up' was a Fox reaction to 'Stop Snitchin'. Maybe some woman hijacked the tee for another purpose.

Hijacked?

I didn't see a thing. I'm not talking.

[awareness]

We know from the pings of the first call that Jason was on the road for his meeting and there was time to make it. I think the guy just got lost.

More like talking to his mistress or mother while ditching evidence - IMO.
:biggrin:
JMO

[5swab5]

Well, of course....but it would be sweet of you to give lurkers a hint at least to help them find the info about that non-phone-call that you invented.

Some posters prefer to go by the SWs, and there is nothing in any of them to even suggest that a phone call was made. He was late and inconsiderate, big deal, seems to be two of his more admirable traits. MOO

[Jester]

Here is the problem with that, Jester.
The minute Michelle was found dead, Jason was a suspect.
Before he ever even got back to Raleigh, while he was still on the road, during his driving marathon, he was a suspect.

He knew it, friends called to tell him, and he knew he was in trouble, unless every answer he gave was perfect, every minute of where he was would be scrutinized, and righfully so.

So, he can't prove he was asleep.
And, apparently, L E can't prove he wasn't.

Then there is MM, it didn't take long to find out about her.

So, his lawyer says be quiet and that is exactly what he does.
And, has been doing for 28+ months.
Seems to be working for him.

Kat

I have a completely different take on that. After Michelle was murdered, the immediate family had to be accounted for and ruled out. That is vastly different than being considered suspects.

The police were unable to rule out Jason on November 3, 2006, nor at any time since. His status, since the murder, has changed to suspect. Contrary to your claim, Jason's status did not start as a suspect.

[Jester]

But here is what a real lawyer says about this situation.

"Other North Carolina defense attorneys, however, acknowledge the suspicion that comes with a spouse’s silence, and that investigators are following standard procedure when seeking information from people closest to the victim.

“Whenever a spouse is murdered under suspicious circumstances, one of the first people police are going to look at is the other spouse. You have to tell your client that that’s to be expected, that they ought not be defensive about that.” said David Rudolf, a prominent defense attorney who represented Michael Peterson in 2003.

“That’s just the way it works, and partly it’s because in many, many situations, it is the spouse who did the crime,” Rudolf said."

http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/2498313/

Your quote support my last comment. The spouse is going to looked at, but is not immediately considered to be a suspect.

[Jester]

Lawyers know better than anyone how routine information can be twisted. A lawyer cannot protect a person who talks. An innocent person needs protection from the cops. In many cases, his only protection is his right to silence. Jason has refused to give up that right. I don't see why you nor the police would have a problem with that.

Routine information can only be twisted into a conviction if there are problems with the routine information. Do you think there are problems with Jason's routine information? Could he have told police which lights were routinely left on during the night without implicating himself?

[kingbuff]

Tell her how to get one of the 'step up and speak out' tees from Fox.

By the way, once the cops indicated they believed Jason lied about where he was that night, why would he tell them anything else? If they believe his alibi is a lie, why talk to them? I wouldn't.

Well, I'm too late to edit this post. Wish I could. According to the cops, Jason has never given them an alibi for that night. He has never told them where he was between midnight and 7:40 a.m., according to the cops. According to all I've read about Jason's silence, I believe the cops are probably truthful here.

So I shouldn't have said the cops thought his alibi was a lie. But from the SWs we have seen, the cops obviously think he did not spend the night in the motel. If he did, he would have a hard time proving it, so why talk to the cops? Nothing he can say would convince them.

[Jester]

We know from the pings of the first call that Jason was on the road for his meeting and there was time to make it. I think the guy just got lost.

He's not much of a traveling salesman if he:

1. can't figure out a road map; and
2. can't be bothered to notify the client when he will be late for a meeting.

[kingbuff]

I have a completely different take on that. After Michelle was murdered, the immediate family had to be accounted for and ruled out. That is vastly different than being considered suspects.

The police were unable to rule out Jason on November 3, 2006, nor at any time since. His status, since the murder, has changed to suspect. Contrary to your claim, Jason's status did not start as a suspect.

Check the NTO. Three times he is called a suspect. If you doubt that, check with the secret agents at NCW. Remember them?

[kingbuff]

Routine information can only be twisted into a conviction if there are problems with the routine information. Do you think there are problems with Jason's routine information? Could he have told police which lights were routinely left on during the night without implicating himself?

The cops were told about the lights. Did they not believe Meredith?

[5swab5]

Well, I'm too late to edit this post. Wish I could. According to the cops, Jason has never given them an alibi for that night. He has never told them where he was between midnight and 7:40 a.m., according to the cops. According to all I've read about Jason's silence, I believe the cops are probably truthful here.

So I shouldn't have said the cops thought his alibi was a lie. But from the SWs we have seen, the cops obviously think he did not spend the night in the motel. If he did, he would have a hard time proving it, so why talk to the cops? Nothing he can say would convince them.

Yep, but do you wonder when his key card was only used once and he was seen in the lobby and hallway afterwards? Not to mention the rock in the lock and the brutal murder of his wife and son...within driving distance. They say that every murderer makes mistakes. BIG mistake IMO, to only use that key card once. I know he thought he was being smart, but jurors are not going to believe that he left his room propped open while he went downstairs, not in this day and age. MOO

[kingbuff]

He's not much of a traveling salesman if he:

1. can't figure out a road map; and
2. can't be bothered to notify the client when he will be late for a meeting.

Check Kat's directions. Doesn't seem so simple to me.

I see you picked up on the other poster's invention. I told her some people would, but I figgered it would be lurkers. But then, lurkers are smart enough to understand inventions.

[achristie]

Tell her how to get one of the 'step up and speak out' tees from Fox.

By the way, once the cops indicated they believed Jason lied about where he was that night, why would he tell them anything else? If they believe his alibi is a lie, why talk to them? I wouldn't.

When and where did the police indicate he lied about where he was that night? Where have they stated his alibi was a lie? What is his alibi and when did he tell them his alibi?

TIA Aggie

[Stellagant]

The moon will turn green before I am even remotely associated with a list of murder suspects. I stand by my position that police and lawyers work closely together. If a client is innocent, and has information relevant to a murder investigation but is concerned about the outcome, that client has the right to have a lawyer present. Jason had information relevant to a murder investigation, but declined to provide routine information to the police even with a lawyer present. That's certainly his right, but he had a responsibility to his wife and daughter ... and he undoubtedly shirked that responsibility.

ETA: It was KB who said yesterday that lawyers don't trust police, and that is the origin of this discussion

Either you don't know the difference between "afraid" and "trust" or you are back playing your game of misrepresenting others' posts.

Here's your posting:

Originally Posted by Jester
Real life, of course. I'm not a criminal, so I'm not afraid of the police, my lawyer is not afraid of the police, my lawyer would advise me to go ahead and talk to the police if they have questions for me, and, generally speaking, we're all happy to cooperate with each other.

I'm pretty sure that regular law-abiding people have no qualms about speaking with police in the absence of a lawyer.

You also are under the mistaken impression that defense lawyers and the police work "with" one another. Please cite a single case currently being discussed on the IS forums where the defense attorney for the suspect is working "with" police.

Link, please to "Jason had information relevant to a murder investigation but declined to provide routine information to the police even with a lawyer present."

[Leanne Weich]

Check Kat's directions. Doesn't seem so simple to me.

I see you picked up on the other poster's invention. I told her some people would, but I figgered it would be lurkers. But then, lurkers are smart enough to understand inventions.

I doubt she picked up on my invention. IIRC, she's been of the view that the SLAYER did not phone his prospective customer to either inform them he was running late or to reschedule the appointment.

I don't know the true reason he was let go at his former place of employment but being late for a first meeting with a prospective customer sure wouldn't have been indicative of a good, let alone satisfactory sales rep, imo.

[achristie]

I don't believe you can cut and paste a pdf file. I guess you were right JY didn't tell them where he was asleep someone else did.

:confused: Are you suggesting that someone else was with him that evening and provided an alibi? This is the first I've heard this. Please explain.

[awareness]

I gave you a link and said you should bookmark it. Your translation of that is chastising?

You said more than that, but figures you "forgot". You said:

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=349691&page=23

Here's the link . I do wish you would bookmark these warrants then you wouldn't always have to be asking for links. Better yet take some time and read them then you could keep up with the conversations. Just an idea.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...0114743620.pdf

And yes, I do consider that chastising.
JMO

[Stellagant]

I doubt she picked up on my invention. IIRC, she's been of the view that the SLAYER did not phone his prospective customer to either inform them he was running late or to reschedule the appointment.

I don't know the true reason he was let go at his former place of employment but being late for a first meeting with a prospective customer sure wouldn't have been indicative of a good, let alone satisfactory sales rep, imo.

What difference does it make whether Jason phoned or didn't phone that he was going to be late? How is either action evidence that helps LE solve this murder?

Where do you get that Jason was "let go at his former place of employment"? How do you know Jason didn't resign?

[Leanne Weich]

According to this SW, http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...0114743620.pdf there were 980 (IIRC) phone calls and text msges between JY and MM in the month preceding MY's murder. I wonder if Michelle had seen a cell phone account and had confronted JY about the inordinately large number of calls and a huge fight ensued. I'm damn sure if I found my DH had been in touch with another woman (even if it was a friend of mine) that much, I'd be in no doubt that it would be impossible for it to be for innocent reasons. JMO.

[Stellagant]

He's not much of a traveling salesman if he:

1. can't figure out a road map; and
2. can't be bothered to notify the client when he will be late for a meeting.

Maybe that's because Jason wasn't a traveling salesman.

:rolleyes:

[Leanne Weich]

What difference does it make whether Jason phoned or didn't phone that he was going to be late? How is either action evidence that helps LE solve this murder?

Where do you get that Jason was "let go at his former place of employment"? How do you know Jason didn't resign?

A phone call explaining why he was going to be late may have taken a bit of suspicion off Jason.

I assumed it must be true that he was let go as this was a topic of discussion by June and/or confused (can't remember which) for a long time which you didn't question so I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that as you supposedly get inside info. it must have been true.

[achristie]

Thats what the warrant said. BSN posted the link above.

I didn't see anything on the fourth page that connotes your assertion. Thanks for clarifying, though. What you posted would have been HUGE!!!!!!! Too bad it's not true. I would LOVE to hear from someone who can support his alibi.

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

According to this SW, http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...0114743620.pdf there were 980 (IIRC) phone calls and text msges between JY and MM in the month preceding MY's murder. I wonder if Michelle had seen a cell phone account and had confronted JY about the inordinately large number of calls and a huge fight ensued. I'm damn sure if I found my DH had been in touch with another woman (even if it was a friend of mine) that much, I'd be in no doubt that it would be impossible for it to be for innocent reasons. JMO.

Not much trust in a marriage if you'd leap to a conclusion before asking for a reason.

Fact is, there has been no evidence presented to the public that indicates Michelle wanted to end her marriage for any reason.

[Leanne Weich]

Maybe that's because Jason wasn't a traveling salesman.

:rolleyes:

Most salesman, to my knowledge, travel in the course of their duties. Maybe not long distances, but I've yet to meet a rep who can't read a map.

[achristie]

What difference does it make whether Jason phoned or didn't phone that he was going to be late? How is either action evidence that helps LE solve this murder?

Where do you get that Jason was "let go at his former place of employment"? How do you know Jason didn't resign?

I agree. It makes little difference if he called about being a diddly 30 minutes late. Now the 50 calls to his mother and the 28 calls to his mistress are a whole different story. Those will take some explainin'.

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

A phone call explaining why he was going to be late may have taken a bit of suspicion off Jason.

I assumed it must be true that he was let go as this was a topic of discussion by June and/or confused (can't remember which) for a long time which you didn't question so I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that as you supposedly get inside info. it must have been true.

I'll repeat my earlier question: how do you know he didn't phone?

I've not seen June and/or confused make any comment about Jason being "let go" by ChartOne. How about you cite your link?

[Leanne Weich]

Not much trust in a marriage if you'd leap to a conclusion before asking for a reason.

Fact is, there has been no evidence presented to the public that indicates Michelle wanted to end her marriage for any reason.

I think you're naive if you think you would rely on trust and not leap to a conclusion if you found your husband had had telephonic communication with a woman almost 1 000 times in a period of 1 month. I've been married for over 25 years with no infidelity in my marriage that I know of and your perception of my lack of trust has obviously stood me in good stead.

I didn't say there was any evidence that Michelle wanted to end her marriage so please don't try to misrepresent my posts. I did say it might have caused a huge fight to ensue.

[Stellagant]

Most salesman, to my knowledge, travel in the course of their duties. Maybe not long distances, but I've yet to meet a rep who can't read a map.

I don't believe Jason was a salesman who traveled a route. That seems to be yet another assumption on your part.

[Leanne Weich]

I'll repeat my earlier question: how do you know he didn't phone?

I've not seen June and/or confused make any comment about Jason being "let go" by ChartOne. How about you cite your link?

From my reading of what the person who was interviewed by LE said, my interpretation is that he didn't phone. Perhaps he did, in which case, my interpretation would be wrong.

Sorry, you're correct. I got my employers mixed up - was thinking of his last job.

[Leanne Weich]

I don't believe Jason was a salesman who traveled a route. That seems to be yet another assumption on your part.

Link to where I said he travelled a route. I'm sure he travelled to his appointments unless he got there by shanks pony or hailed a cab, in which case he probably did not need to be able to read a map.

[achristie]

I'll repeat my earlier question: how do you know he didn't phone?

I've not seen June and/or confused make any comment about Jason being "let go" by ChartOne. How about you cite your link?


Thanxxxx for the clarification. June= Confused. That's been a bit confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the phone records , we only know what has been released in the SWs. Be patient. It's all gonna come out. Judging from other boards (this is my first real case) we will have trouble keeping up when it all breaks wide open. So we need to be patient.

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

I think you're naive if you think you would rely on trust and not leap to a conclusion if you found your husband had had telephonic communication with a woman almost 1 000 times in a period of 1 month. I've been married for over 25 years with no infidelity in my marriage that I know of and your perception of my lack of trust has obviously stood me in good stead.

I didn't say there was any evidence that Michelle wanted to end her marriage so please don't try to misrepresent my posts. I did say it might have caused a huge fight to ensue.

I have no reason to leap to a conclusion of infidelity because of phone calls. You seem to be confusing trust with paranoia.

I've relied on trust for over 30 years and I know I wouldn't leap to such a dramatic conclusion about PHONE CALLS.

You're concluding Michelle found out about the frequency of the calls and a huge fight ensued but you're not basing it on any facts, just your imagination based on how YOU would react. I wouldn't react that way and I have no reason to believe Michelle would make such a leap.

[Jester]

Check the NTO. Three times he is called a suspect. If you doubt that, check with the secret agents at NCW. Remember them?

Thanks for pointing that out. There must have been something very questionable about Jason's behavior and story for him to be a suspect so early in the investigation. Did he ask about his daughter when the police told him his wife had been murdered, or did he hang up on the police? Would a 2 year old daughter, in the home at the time of the murder, be a normal concern for an innocent man?

[achristie]

I don't believe Jason was a salesman who traveled a route. That seems to be yet another assumption on your part.

Well, there ya go ! That explains his five maps. He travelled many routes.

MOO Aggie

[Leanne Weich]

I think the GA friend would know if they had a huge fight. She was with MY till 10:30 that evening and we know JY was still at the motel an hour and half later. So when did this huge fight take place?

Quite possibly between 10.30 and the last time JY was seen on the video and the fight (if it happened) could have been what prompted him to return to Raleigh to kill Michelle before she had a chance to expose the affair to Steve Money. It was Lindsey I believe who alleged she had information that Michelle was on her computer at midnight. Maybe Michelle was checking online phone records or researching infidelity. I've heard that many relationship experts recommend exposing an affair to the spouse of the infidel and, if Michelle intended doing just that, that would be motive enough, imo, for Jason to have killed her. It would no doubt have made him mad enough to have committed such a ruthless murder.

[Stellagant]

Link to where I said he travelled a route. I'm sure he travelled to his appointments unless he got there by shanks pony or hailed a cab, in which case he probably did not need to be able to read a map.

You keep calling Jason a salesman. I don't believe that was his position.

[Jester]

The cops were told about the lights. Did they not believe Meredith?

Point being that Meredith was able to answer routine questions, so why should Jason answer the same questions?

I was under the impression that Meredith lived at her own residence, so I'm not convinced that she would be the best candidate to answer questions about routine practices at the Young household.

[Jester]

We already know there were more lights on than usual the newspaper guy said so. See LE found out about the lights without JY's help.

The police certainly know what lights were on when they arrived at the scene. The question for Jason to answer is which lights were normally on, not which lights were on after the murder.

[5swab5]

Not much trust in a marriage if you'd leap to a conclusion before asking for a reason. (snipped)

Oh Brother.

IF 980 phone/text messages in a month between a married man and another woman is not cause for concern, I don't know what is. GMAB

How about: I feel lucky just to know you, much less love you, but I do

MOO

[Barbara2]

I have no reason to leap to a conclusion of infidelity because of phone calls. You seem to be confusing trust with paranoia.

I've relied on trust for over 30 years and I know I wouldn't leap to such a dramatic conclusion about PHONE CALLS.

You're concluding Michelle found out about the frequency of the calls and a huge fight ensued but you're not basing it on any facts, just your imagination based on how YOU would react. I wouldn't react that way and I have no reason to believe Michelle would make such a leap.

But he WAS having an affair. That has been verified.

[achristie]

I have no reason to leap to a conclusion of infidelity because of phone calls. You seem to be confusing trust with paranoia.

I've relied on trust for over 30 years and I know I wouldn't leap to such a dramatic conclusion about PHONE CALLS.

You're concluding Michelle found out about the frequency of the calls and a huge fight ensued but you're not basing it on any facts, just your imagination based on how YOU would react. I wouldn't react that way and I have no reason to believe Michelle would make such a leap.

Yet you have no problem leaping to a giant conclusion about the 911 call. Interesting. Very interesting.

MOO Aggie

[Leanne Weich]

You keep calling Jason a salesman. I don't believe that was his position.

Every rep I've ever known well enough to discuss his/her job with has admitted their job is nothing but that of a glorified salesman/woman. I believe a pharmaceutical rep. calls on doctors, hospitals and the like to promote their products with the ultimate aim of having those products prescribed to patients. May not be the typical definition of a salesperson but when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, that is what it boils down to, imo.

[Leanne Weich]

I have no reason to leap to a conclusion of infidelity because of phone calls. You seem to be confusing trust with paranoia.

I've relied on trust for over 30 years and I know I wouldn't leap to such a dramatic conclusion about PHONE CALLS.

You're concluding Michelle found out about the frequency of the calls and a huge fight ensued but you're not basing it on any facts, just your imagination based on how YOU would react. I wouldn't react that way and I have no reason to believe Michelle would make such a leap.

I think it is far more likely that most married women would assume exactly what I would were their husband to make and receive almost 1000 phone communications in a month from a woman than that those same women would infer that Meredith murdered Michelle on far less (in fact, imo, on no) evidence.

If you bothered to try to understand what you read instead of only looking for posts you think you can jump all over, you'd have seen that i wasn't assuming anything about Michelle but merely speculating as to what could have - may have happened. I don't believe that is outside the TOS.

[awareness]

But he WAS having an affair. That has been verified.


Correct, Michelle Money hoped to have Jason's child per the SW (her own words).
JMO

[Leanne Weich]

Correct, Michelle Money hoped to have Jason's child per the SW (her own words).
JMO

Do you know offhand when MM fell pregnant? I think if I was her husband I'd have been demanding a paternity test considering we know she was in touch with JY even after he killed Michelle.

[awareness]

No I dont know when she got pregnant. Im surprised Steve Money stayed with her to be honest. I would have left but JMO. Says a lot about the kind of person Michelle Money is - not only to have slept with her best friends husband, but to keep in contact after the murder. Wonder if they are still in contact and how often.
JMO

[Leanne Weich]

No I dont know when she got pregnant. Im surprised Steve Money stayed with her to be honest. I would have left but JMO. Says a lot about the kind of person Michelle Money is - not only to have slept with her best friends husband, but to keep in contact after the murder. Wonder if they are still in contact and how often.
JMO

I must admit I could kind of understand him staying with her when it first came out about their relationship but then when it came out she'd been in contact with him again, I think that would have been the last straw for me. If she is still in contact with him, she needs her head read, imo.

[kingbuff]

Point being that Meredith was able to answer routine questions, so why should Jason answer the same questions?

I was under the impression that Meredith lived at her own residence, so I'm not convinced that she would be the best candidate to answer questions about routine practices at the Young household.

Meredith was there often enough to answer questions, according to other posters. And I doubt that Jason would be given the option of pick-and-choose with questions. It would be all or nothing. He chose nothing.

[kingbuff]

[QUOTE=Leanne Weich;12856510]I think it is far more likely that most married women would assume exactly what I would were their husband to make and receive almost 1000 phone communications in a month from a woman than that those same women would infer that Meredith murdered Michelle on far less (in fact, imo, on no) evidence.

snipped QUOTE]

Michelle was also friends with MM. How many of those calls did she make? By the way, which phone(s) were/was used?

[Barbara2]

[QUOTE=Leanne Weich;12856510]I think it is far more likely that most married women would assume exactly what I would were their husband to make and receive almost 1000 phone communications in a month from a woman than that those same women would infer that Meredith murdered Michelle on far less (in fact, imo, on no) evidence.

snipped QUOTE]

Michelle was also friends with MM. How many of those calls did she make? By the way, which phone(s) were/was used?

It doesn't really matter much, does it? The affair has been verified. That's like defending a domestic violence act by saying, "I didn't hit her THAT hard." No matter how many calls, he was having an affair with his wife's (so-called) friend. IMO

[kingbuff]

Thanks for pointing that out. There must have been something very questionable about Jason's behavior and story for him to be a suspect so early in the investigation. Did he ask about his daughter when the police told him his wife had been murdered, or did he hang up on the police? Would a 2 year old daughter, in the home at the time of the murder, be a normal concern for an innocent man?

Why would he ask the cops? We've been told Jason talked to Meredith and Cassie on the way to Raleigh. We've also heard that he did not hang up on the cops. You seem inclined to believe the cops. Go for it.

[Stellagant]

I think it is far more likely that most married women would assume exactly what I would were their husband to make and receive almost 1000 phone communications in a month from a woman than that those same women would infer that Meredith murdered Michelle on far less (in fact, imo, on no) evidence.

If you bothered to try to understand what you read instead of only looking for posts you think you can jump all over, you'd have seen that i wasn't assuming anything about Michelle but merely speculating as to what could have - may have happened. I don't believe that is outside the TOS.

When you can back up your opinion with valid research, I'll consider it. In the meantime, I will continue to state that I won't leap to a conclusion my husband is having an affair just because of PHONE CALLS. It is the content that matters, not the quantity, imo.

The number of phone calls is evidence of a possible affair, not evidence of murder. Why do you need to inflate the number of calls? Or speculate that there was a fight even though LE has never even hinted that Michelle knew about Michelle Money or that there was a fight between Michelle and Jason? The GA friend was still there after Jason had left.

The 911 call is evidence. I've yet to see a murder trial where the 911 hasn't been submitted as evidence.

[on the go]

Meredith was there often enough to answer questions, according to other posters. And I doubt that Jason would be given the option of pick-and-choose with questions. It would be all or nothing. He chose nothing.


Why would Meredith be given the option to pick the choose the questions put to her?

[achristie]

Why would he ask the cops? We've been told Jason talked to Meredith and Cassie on the way to Raleigh. We've also heard that he did not hang up on the cops. You seem inclined to believe the cops. Go for it.

Who is we? I've never heard any such thing, although I'm hoping it's true that he spoke with Cassie.

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

[QUOTE=kingbuff;12856640]

It doesn't really matter much, does it? The affair has been verified. That's like defending a domestic violence act by saying, "I didn't hit her THAT hard." No matter how many calls, he was having an affair with his wife's (so-called) friend. IMO

No, it has not been verified that Jason continued to be involved in a sexual relationship with Michelle Money at the time of Michelle's murder. Ms. Money only admitted to two incidents that happened nearly a month prior to the murder.

We don't know who initiated those many phone calls, we don't know how many were answered and LE certainly has not indicated they have cleared Ms. Money.

[achristie]

CW, if you are here, there is something seriously wrong with the quote button.

[achristie]

I hardly think June =confused. You need to rethink that statement. What is it with all the fishing to see who people are. I don't know you and could care less who you are. Neither my wife nor dog is named June so there.

You need to take that up with Stella.

[achristie]

Stella said and/or so stop twisting people's words. You are the one that wrote it. By the way my dogs name is Christie she's a blonde cocker spaniel.


:confused: And your point is?
Let's rein it in.
No need to take the board OT.
This is not about you, me, or your dog.:laugh:

[Kat4Eagles]

If what you saying is correct then MF has already hung herself. First warrants she finds the child walking around the house then when questioned about the clean condition of the child she puts her in a bed in later warrants. Some warrants she enters the house and as usual drops her keys on the kitchen counter. Oops those are MY's keys her keys are on the hood of MY's car. First JY calls her in the morning the threads were just buzzing about it being 7:30 AM. Later the warrants say it was afternoon shortly after he had tried his wife twice. Did LE twist what she said or did she have several stories she told?

So, this means when MF arrived, all the lights in the house and outside were on, too.
I must have missed this red flag to add to all the other ones.

Kat

[Leanne Weich]

When you can back up your opinion with valid research, I'll consider it. In the meantime, I will continue to state that I won't leap to a conclusion my husband is having an affair just because of PHONE CALLS. It is the content that matters, not the quantity, imo.

The number of phone calls is evidence of a possible affair, not evidence of murder. Why do you need to inflate the number of calls? Or speculate that there was a fight even though LE has never even hinted that Michelle knew about Michelle Money or that there was a fight between Michelle and Jason? The GA friend was still there after Jason had left.

The 911 call is evidence. I've yet to see a murder trial where the 911 hasn't been submitted as evidence.

I am certainly not going to search for links for you because you wouldn't give them fair consideration, imo. As for inflating the number of calls - well almost 1000 is not an inflation if the number is 980,imo. I can speculate on anything I like and, you know the drill, if you don't want to read speculation, scroll on by. I am well aware that the GA friend was there after JY had left - was there a point to that observation because, if so, I missed it?

The 911 call may well be evidence, if the DA or RS decide it is relevant but your interpretation of it certainly is not.

[achristie]

My point is why you are always fishing to see if you can figure who someone is. Why would you care. As I stated I don't know who you are and could care less. If I see it posted one more time I will take it to CW.

Dear, you must be confused. I have spent zero time fishing on this board for your identity nor anyone elses. And you are correct. I don't care to know who you are. It matters not. Understand that? Stella posted that you were June/ Confused. Those would be your nics here, correct? One would hardly think they are your real name. Hope this helps.

MOO Aggie

[Leanne Weich]

My point is why you are always fishing to see if you can figure who someone is. Why would you care. As I stated I don't know who you are and could care less. If I see it posted one more time I will take it to CW.

OFGS, grow up. If you could care less, why would you want to run to CW? Trying to get this thread shut down. I wish everyone would realise this is not kindergarten - you know sticks and stones and all that ...

[5swab5]

Why would he ask the cops? We've been told Jason talked to Meredith and Cassie on the way to Raleigh. We've also heard that he did not hang up on the cops. You seem inclined to believe the cops. Go for it.

Thank you, I will believe the SWs. Everything else is just a rumor.MOO

[Jester]

Check Kat's directions. Doesn't seem so simple to me.

I see you picked up on the other poster's invention. I told her some people would, but I figgered it would be lurkers. But then, lurkers are smart enough to understand inventions.

Jason, a traveling salesman at the time, is smart enough to read a map regardless of how many right/left turns he has to make.

[Jester]

Maybe that's because Jason wasn't a traveling salesman.

:rolleyes:

At the time of Michelle's murder, Jason was traveling to sell software used by medical offices. He traveled to sell, otherwise known as a traveling salesman.

[Jester]

Meredith was there often enough to answer questions, according to other posters. And I doubt that Jason would be given the option of pick-and-choose with questions. It would be all or nothing. He chose nothing.

Jason had the option of answering routine questions with the assistance of a lawyer. If any questions were considered to be double edged swords, the lawyer could intervene. It is not all or nothing.

How often was Meredith at the Young's house?

[Jester]

Why would he ask the cops? We've been told Jason talked to Meredith and Cassie on the way to Raleigh. We've also heard that he did not hang up on the cops. You seem inclined to believe the cops. Go for it.

The police believe that Jason hung up on them after less than a five minute phone call. Jason did not ask if his daughter was okay. Is Jason claiming that he completed the call with police? Is it Jason's word against that of the police? I'm not inclined to believe Jason over the police, since we know him to be a liar.

How do you know that Jason spoke to Meredith and Cassidy during his trip to Raleigh?

[achristie]

The police believe that Jason hung up on them after less than a five minute phone call. Jason did not ask if his daughter was okay. Is Jason claiming that he completed the call with police? Is it Jason's word against that of the police? I'm not inclined to believe Jason over the police, since we know him to be a liar.

How do you know that Jason spoke to Meredith and Cassidy during his trip to Raleigh?

I've asked the same question, Jester. This is the first I've heard this.

[kingbuff]

The police believe that Jason hung up on them after less than a five minute phone call. Jason did not ask if his daughter was okay. Is Jason claiming that he completed the call with police? Is it Jason's word against that of the police? I'm not inclined to believe Jason over the police, since we know him to be a liar.

How do you know that Jason spoke to Meredith and Cassidy during his trip to Raleigh?

I don't know. I wasn't there. If he didn't, why would he not ask the cops about his wife and Cassie? I wonder if Meredith was one of the friends who called advising him to get a lawyer?

[Jester]

KB, you raise a good point. Why didn't Jason ask about his daughter when he spoke with the police.

We know that Jason's stepfather advised him to get a lawyer because his stepfather stated that he thought the police would try to pin the murder on him. That info is in one of the very early articles.

[Jester]

"McIntyre said he told Jason Young to get a lawyer. He said he was afraid that police would pin the death on his stepson, regardless of evidence."
Sarah Ovaska - Staff Writer
Tue, Nov. 07, 2006
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/507222.html

[kingbuff]

KB, you raise a good point. Why didn't Jason ask about his daughter when he spoke with the police.

We know that Jason's stepfather advised him to get a lawyer because his stepfather stated that he thought the police would try to pin the murder on him. That info is in one of the very early articles.

I remember that about a lawyer from one of the newspapers. He didn't about his daughter, in my opinion, because he talked to Meredith and Cassie. I would, in that position. Like me, you are trying to use common sense to figure things out. I'm still asking myself common sense questions that I can't answer.

Why did this party hound choose to ruin a big party weekend when he planned his crime?

Why did this father choose a night when his daughter was in the house?

Why did this father choose to put his daughter to bed in the same room as his dead wife? Her bed was in a different room.

Why did this father allow his daughter to walk in her mother's blood?

Why did this homeowner turn on all the lights and leave them on when he left?

Why did this homeowner steal his own jewelry? And why not leave evidence of a home invasion, if that was his plan?

Why did this computer-literate, phone-literate man leave so much electronic evidence that seems to point suspiciously at him?

[kingbuff]

"McIntyre said he told Jason Young to get a lawyer. He said he was afraid that police would pin the death on his stepson, regardless of evidence."
Sarah Ovaska - Staff Writer
Tue, Nov. 07, 2006
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/507222.html

I think mistrust of the law is bred into mountain people. If you want to learn about mountain people, I suggest "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart. The writer lived the life among them in the early 20th century.

[kingbuff]

Jason had the option of answering routine questions with the assistance of a lawyer. If any questions were considered to be double edged swords, the lawyer could intervene. It is not all or nothing.

How often was Meredith at the Young's house?

Good question. At one time we were told she was Cassie's nanny. I don't know if they lived in that house at the time.

I doubt a lawyer can protect a client who talks. The lawyer wouldn't know what the cops were after, nor what evidence they had. An innocent man should be silent. I posted the link earlier giving 8 good reasons an innocent man should not talk. Good common sense to me.

[Jester]

I remember that about a lawyer from one of the newspapers. He didn't ask about his daughter, in my opinion, because he talked to Meredith and Cassie. I would, in that position. Like me, you are trying to use common sense to figure things out. I'm still asking myself common sense questions that I can't answer.

Why did this party hound choose to ruin a big party weekend when he planned his crime?

Why did this father choose a night when his daughter was in the house?

Why did this father choose to put his daughter to bed in the same room as his dead wife? Her bed was in a different room.

Why did this father allow his daughter to walk in her mother's blood?

Why did this homeowner turn on all the lights and leave them on when he left?

Why did this homeowner steal his own jewelry? And why not leave evidence of a home invasion, if that was his plan?

Why did this computer-literate, phone-literate man leave so much electronic evidence that seems to point suspiciously at him?

Well, good questions. I'm of the opinion that he had thoughts about murdering Michelle for several months. I think his primary objective, in the plan, was to have a partial alibi that placed him out of town. I say partial because it cannot be verified, but that was the best he could hope for. I think managing his daughter was secondary to murdering his wife.

Apparently the Thursday night that Michelle was murdered worked well for Jason, perhaps because she wasn't expected at work the following day. That meant no one would be looking for Michelle at 8 or 9 AM, and it bought Jason some time. Since Michelle was home that Friday, why would she arrange for Cassidy to be somewhere else? No reason, so I think Michelle being home Friday was the primary factor.

I posted a theory about why Cassidy was in Jason's bed a couple of months ago, but I'm pretty sure you weren't reading at that time - although the post was addressed to you. I think that Jason was in the shower after the murder (per your information), and Cassidy wandered into the bedroom. At that time she walked in Michelle's blood and left bloody footprints. I think the smears on the shower wall were made when Jason washed off her feet as she struggled. He may have put her in her bathroom for a few minutes while he got dressed or organized. I think he took her to her bedroom, medicated her, and settled her down. Once she was asleep, I think he moved her to his room. I still think it's a possibility that he intended to over-medicate Cassidy, and have both bodies found at the same time, in the same room.

He may have left the lights on accidentally, or he may have thought that his daughter may wake up and would be afraid in the dark. That's a difficult one to figure out. It could have been part of the staged robbery, which is the reason some unusual pieces of jewelry were taken. A true robber would have taken the TV and computers.

As for electronic evidence, I doubt he thought there was anything wrong with carrying on with MM, and he couldn't hide the evidence so he left it there. His computer searches were probably not easy to find, and not easy to hide.

Sorry for the long post, but you have good questions. Finally, the party. Why blow off a party? Some wives are murdered on Christmas Eve by their partying husbands. Maybe the stress of a big event is enough to push them to acting on a thought they've toyed with for months.

[Jester]

I think mistrust of the law is bred into mountain people. If you want to learn about mountain people, I suggest "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart. The writer lived the life among them in the early 20th century.

Thanks. I'm looking for a good book to read.

[Jester]

Good question. At one time we were told she was Cassie's nanny. I don't know if they lived in that house at the time.

I doubt a lawyer can protect a client who talks. The lawyer wouldn't know what the cops were after, nor what evidence they had. An innocent man should be silent. I posted the link earlier giving 8 good reasons an innocent man should not talk. Good common sense to me.

A good lawyer can sometimes ensure that even a guilty man walks free, so why would it be so difficult for a good lawyer (and Jason had a good lawyer) to ensure that an innocent man walks free?

[Kat4Eagles]

KB, you raise a good point. Why didn't Jason ask about his daughter when he spoke with the police.

We know that Jason's stepfather advised him to get a lawyer because his stepfather stated that he thought the police would try to pin the murder on him. That info is in one of the very early articles.



Wait now, Jester, we don't know at one point Jason was told CY was okay, but I bet he was..
And, I think that she was the main reason he went back to Raleigh that nite, to get her.
Which. if you think about it, if this was all part of his "plan", why would he leave her there only to have go back and retrieve her?
He knew eventually he would have to face LE, but not necessarily that nite.

Kat

[kingbuff]

I'm too sleepy to answer your post tonight. Maybe the morning.

[Kat4Eagles]

Well, good questions. I'm of the opinion that he had thoughts about murdering Michelle for several months. I think his primary objective, in the plan, was to have a partial alibi that placed him out of town. I say partial because it cannot be verified, but that was the best he could hope for. I think managing his daughter was secondary to murdering his wife.

Apparently the Thursday night that Michelle was murdered worked well for Jason, perhaps because she wasn't expected at work the following day. That meant no one would be looking for Michelle at 8 or 9 AM, and it bought Jason some time. Since Michelle was home that Friday, why would she arrange for Cassidy to be somewhere else? No reason, so I think Michelle being home Friday was the primary factor.

I posted a theory about why Cassidy was in Jason's bed a couple of months ago, but I'm pretty sure you weren't reading at that time - although the post was addressed to you. I think that Jason was in the shower after the murder (per your information), and Cassidy wandered into the bedroom. At that time she walked in Michelle's blood and left bloody footprints. I think the smears on the shower wall were made when Jason washed off her feet as she struggled. He may have put her in her bathroom for a few minutes while he got dressed or organized. I think he took her to her bedroom, medicated her, and settled her down. Once she was asleep, I think he moved her to his room. I still think it's a possibility that he intended to over-medicate Cassidy, and have both bodies found at the same time, in the same room.

He may have left the lights on accidentally, or he may have thought that his daughter may wake up and would be afraid in the dark. That's a difficult one to figure out. It could have been part of the staged robbery, which is the reason some unusual pieces of jewelry were taken. A true robber would have taken the TV and computers.

As for electronic evidence, I doubt he thought there was anything wrong with carrying on with MM, and he couldn't hide the evidence so he left it there. His computer searches were probably not easy to find, and not easy to hide.

Sorry for the long post, but you have good questions. Finally, the party. Why blow off a party? Some wives are murdered on Christmas Eve by their partying husbands. Maybe the stress of a big event is enough to push them to acting on a thought they've toyed with for months.


I think it was posted that it was an option for Michelle to work that Friday, if she chose.
I don't think this murder was planned for more than 5 minutes.
I will never believe Jason ever tried to harm CY, by medication or any other means.
I think the tailgate party was for Sat for the homecoming game, and Jason would have been back in time.
But, I do appreciate yout post and the time you took to share it.
And, I have only one more question.

When will this crime ever be solved?

Kat

[Stellagant]

At the time of Michelle's murder, Jason was traveling to sell software used by medical offices. He traveled to sell, otherwise known as a traveling salesman.

Link?

I doubt medical offices purchase expensive software from "traveling salesmen." Usually the RFP process is used.

I've been told Jason was a manager. The only reference I've heard to "salesman" was in news articles that contained other errors and postings on forums that are often filled with errors.

[Stellagant]

Stella said and/or so stop twisting people's words. You are the one that wrote it. By the way my dogs name is Christie she's a blonde cocker spaniel.

I apologize to you. I use ignore so didn't see this misrepresentation earlier by achristie. Yes, achristie is twisting what I said. I haven't seen both of you or either of you post anything about it.

[Stellagant]

Jason had the option of answering routine questions with the assistance of a lawyer. If any questions were considered to be double edged swords, the lawyer could intervene. It is not all or nothing.

How often was Meredith at the Young's house?

You don't know that Jason's lawyer agreed that was an option. :rolleyes:

[Stellagant]

I think mistrust of the law is bred into mountain people. If you want to learn about mountain people, I suggest "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart. The writer lived the life among them in the early 20th century.

I think mistrust of the cops is pounded into law students the first year of law school.

[Stellagant]

I think it was posted that it was an option for Michelle to work that Friday, if she chose.
I don't think this murder was planned for more than 5 minutes.
I will never believe Jason ever tried to harm CY, by medication or any other means.
I think the tailgate party was for Sat for the homecoming game, and Jason would have been back in time.
But, I do appreciate yout post and the time you took to share it.
And, I have only one more question.

When will this crime ever be solved?

Kat

Soon.....Did you miss my earlier prediction? LOL

Yes, I think the tailgate party was for Saturday and the guests were expected for Saturday night. I also think this tidbit is common knowledge and cops are quite aware of this fact as well as there was a Friday night guest who cancelled because of illness.

[5swab5]

I remember that about a lawyer from one of the newspapers. He didn't about his daughter, in my opinion, because he talked to Meredith and Cassie. I would, in that position. Like me, you are trying to use common sense to figure things out. I'm still asking myself common sense questions that I can't answer.

Why did this party hound choose to ruin a big party weekend when he planned his crime?

Why did this father choose a night when his daughter was in the house?

Why did this father choose to put his daughter to bed in the same room as his dead wife? Her bed was in a different room.

Why did this father allow his daughter to walk in her mother's blood?

Why did this homeowner turn on all the lights and leave them on when he left?

Why did this homeowner steal his own jewelry? And why not leave evidence of a home invasion, if that was his plan?

Why did this computer-literate, phone-literate man leave so much electronic evidence that seems to point suspiciously at him?

All the answers point to the premeditated slaughter of Michelle and Rylan by a furious and disloyal husband and father.

As for the things that didn't work out so good? Well so far, Alan Fisher is the only one on record as saying that Jason is smart. Most criminals make many mistakes, the slayer isn't special in that respect. MOO

[Jester]

I'm too sleepy to answer your post tonight. Maybe the morning.

This is the debate I want to have in order to understand what happened, who did it, and why. I have no agenda, and I really don't consider it relevant whether Jason's first call was made at 7:40 or 7:49. I have no interest in debating whether a cell phone was turned off, or was too old to ping while on. What is interesting are the factors and circumstances surrounding the murder, including the points you raised.

Was the unique jewelry taken in the spirit of not only obliterating Michelle, but in also destroying the things she treasured?

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Good question. At one time we were told she was Cassie's nanny. I don't know if they lived in that house at the time.

I doubt a lawyer can protect a client who talks. The lawyer wouldn't know what the cops were after, nor what evidence they had. An innocent man should be silent. I posted the link earlier giving 8 good reasons an innocent man should not talk. Good common sense to me.

I'm sure that your spouse takes great comfort in knowing that you wouldn't help the cops in any way, shape, or form should she be the victim of such a horrific event.

I can just see the Hallmark card now:
I love you and want to spend my life with you BUT,
If you get murdered I'm keeping my mouth SHUT.

I guess real southern gentlemen are a vanishing breed. IMO

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I think mistrust of the cops is pounded into law students the first year of law school.

I think contempt of the cops is pounded into law students the first year of law school. IMO

[kingbuff]

I'm sure that your spouse takes great comfort in knowing that you wouldn't help the cops in any way, shape, or form should she be the victim of such a horrific event.

I can just see the Hallmark card now:
I love you and want to spend my life with you BUT,
If you get murdered I'm keeping my mouth SHUT.

I guess real southern gentlemen are a vanishing breed. IMO

I should have added: if I am a suspect. Of course, a professional, effective detective would never let me know I am a suspect and would keep assuring me I was not. The Wake detectives, in my opinion, need more training. What do you think of their investigation from the beginning?

[kingbuff]

This is the debate I want to have in order to understand what happened, who did it, and why. I have no agenda, and I really don't consider it relevant whether Jason's first call was made at 7:40 or 7:49. I have no interest in debating whether a cell phone was turned off, or was too old to ping while on. What is interesting are the factors and circumstances surrounding the murder, including the points you raised.

Was the unique jewelry taken in the spirit of not only obliterating Michelle, but in also destroying the things she treasured?

Never thought of it that way. An unconscious desire to destroy Michelle? Depends on who did it, of course. And also the theory must account for Jason's missing rings. Nope. I think the jewelry was just something the killers wanted....or possibly had been instructed to get.

[kingbuff]

Oh...and one more thing. What burglars or "persons instructed" to burglarize wear Hushpuppies?

And what luck finding the house when the man (using the term loosely) of the house just happens to be gone...

Back to the shoe prints are you? I've never had any desire to discuss that nor can I see how you or anyone else could have anything pertinent to say until we are told when the cops found and removed the pillow which was not mentioned on the itemized list of items removed from the house if I remember correctly.

Was it removed before or after 19 cops and numerous medical people walked through the scene? Did the detectives examine the shoes of all those people? We were told early on that detectives returned to the house near Christmas to claim the murder scene carpet. Is that when the pillow was removed?

You don't know enough, in my opinion, to discuss the shoe prints.

[Tia]

About the lights...

Maybe I missed something in the SW's, but it was the paper delivery person that saw all the lights on when he was there between 4 - 5. We also know there was a vehicle similar to Jason's in the driveway at that time also.

I am not sure we have been told or it has been written how many lights were on when Meredith arrived. It would be, however, something I would be interested in. For example, if the lights were off when she arrived...whomever was parked in the driveway turned off the lights before he left. Some random killer or burglary killer (IMO) is not going to turn the lights on in the first place. And secondly, make sure they turn them off as they are leaving....

If I missed something where Meredith mentioned the lights, please point me to it.

I've never seen anything mentioned either. The only mention of the lights that I have ever seen was by the newspaper delivery person.

[Tia]

Oh...and one more thing. What burglars or "persons instructed" to burglarize wear Hushpuppies?

And what luck finding the house when the man (using the term loosely) of the house just happens to be gone...


And what luck wearing the same shoes, same size that Jason owned!

[Stellagant]

Oh...and one more thing. What burglars or "persons instructed" to burglarize wear Hushpuppies?

And what luck finding the house when the man (using the term loosely) of the house just happens to be gone...

You'll have to direct your indignation at LE because they are the ones pursuing the shoes and the jewelry.

:rolleyes:

[kingbuff]

And where did they look for both? I believe SWs directed at JY or his belongings...


Yep. How did that work out for them?

[5swab5]

Never thought of it that way. An unconscious desire to destroy Michelle? Depends on who did it, of course. And also the theory must account for Jason's missing rings. Nope. I think the jewelry was just something the killers wanted....or possibly had been instructed to get.

IF his ring had been on his finger where it belonged, it could not have been stolen. OTOH, by reporting it stolen, he was free to quit wearing it before the bodies were cold, thus "movin' on". MOO

[5swab5]

(snipped)
You don't know enough, in my opinion, to discuss the shoe prints.

OUCH, that was ugly.

It is my understanding that we are allowed to discuss anything that pertains to the case. You can not dictate what areas will or will not be covered. MOO

[Stellagant]

Back to the shoe prints are you? I've never had any desire to discuss that nor can I see how you or anyone else could have anything pertinent to say until we are told when the cops found and removed the pillow which was not mentioned on the itemized list of items removed from the house if I remember correctly.

Was it removed before or after 19 cops and numerous medical people walked through the scene? Did the detectives examine the shoes of all those people? We were told early on that detectives returned to the house near Christmas to claim the murder scene carpet. Is that when the pillow was removed?

You don't know enough, in my opinion, to discuss the shoe prints.

as always, you raise good points. It's possible they didn't seize the pillow until later. Maybe after they listened to the 911 call and heard Meredith mention a pillow?

The question I've always had is how did Meredith manage to touch Michelle yet not step in any blood and not get blood on her hand/fingers? If Meredith truly was checking Michelle while on the 911 call, there should have been blood inadvertantly tracked outside that bedroom, blood transferred to the telephone receiver or Cassidy.

[Stellagant]

And how do you know she didn't have blood on her hands? Just because it isn't stated in something, doesn't mean she didn't get some blood on her, etc...

Just like with the phone call to the hospital that Jason would be late. We don't he didn't make a call, do we?

The search warrants noted the clean condition of the child and no trail of blood between bedroom and bath. There have been posters here who saw the house after it was released who have said the blood was contained to the bedroom and bathroom. No trace transferred outside of either room on doorknobs, carpet, whether it be by dog, Cassidy or Meredith.

[Tia]

The search warrants noted the clean condition of the child and no trail of blood between bedroom and bath. There have been posters here who saw the house after it was released who have said the blood was contained to the bedroom and bathroom. No trace transferred outside of either room on doorknobs, carpet, whether it be by dog, Cassidy or Meredith.


Jason waited until noon to call Meredith. The blood had approximately 6 hours to dry. Also, if Cassidy were drugged, she may not have been awake until shortly before Meredith arrived, so its very possible that blood was not tracked through the house.

[kingbuff]

Re your long, revealing post from last night, Jester....

He saw nothing wrong with carrying on with MM....he saw nothing wrong with considering for several months how/when to kill his wife....he saw nothing wrong with leaving his daughter in the middle of that carnage? It seems, in my opinion, you are describing a dangerously disturbed man. If that is true, the questions I asked about common sense do not apply. Also, it seems to me such a disturbed man would be a danger to all around him.

As for the shower and bloody footprints....if the man is truly psychotic, we will never, in my opinion, figure out what happened. Common sense would say he should leave his daughter in her room with the doors to her room and to his room closed. But if common sense doesn't apply, nothing will make sense to us normal people.

[5swab5]

Re your long, revealing post from last night, Jester....

He saw nothing wrong with carrying on with MM....he saw nothing wrong with considering for several months how/when to kill his wife....he saw nothing wrong with leaving his daughter in the middle of that carnage? It seems, in my opinion, you are describing a dangerously disturbed man. If that is true, the questions I asked about common sense do not apply. Also, it seems to me such a disturbed man would be a danger to all around him.

As for the shower and bloody footprints....if the man is truly psychotic, we will never, in my opinion, figure out what happened. Common sense would say he should leave his daughter in her room with the doors to her room and to his room closed. But if common sense doesn't apply, nothing will make sense to us normal people.

Common sense does apply, an innocent man would NOT allow himself to be named Michelle and Rylan's slayer. An innocent man would not cede PRIMARY physical custody of his only daughter.

So far, the only one being punished for the slayer's crimes is Cassidy, I hardly think that is fair. So much for altruistic ideas about a man that some once knew as a boy. MOO

[5swab5]

Oh...and one more thing. What burglars or "persons instructed" to burglarize wear Hushpuppies?

And what luck finding the house when the man (using the term loosely) of the house just happens to be gone...

Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

[awareness]

Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

I know such a coincidence Jason owns the very same brand! Yet they've vanished along with that shirt.
JMO

[Stellagant]

Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

A jury won't be deliberating any facts you've invented.
:no:

According to the search warrant, the print on the deck was similar to the Franklin shoe print, not the Hush Puppie shoe print.

[awareness]

A jury won't be deliberating any facts you've invented.
:no:

According to the search warrant, the print on the deck was similar to the Franklin shoe print, not the Hush Puppie shoe print.

:no:

Swabby didnt claim the deck print was a Hushpuppie print. Swabby was merely saying that LE found evidence regarding the Hushpuppie Orbital shoes and of course those shoes have since vanished, along with the Franklin's.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf
End of page 17, top of page 18

And yes, dont you worry, a jury sure WILL be deliberating this after Slayer is arrested for the criminal aspect.
:smile:
JMO

[5swab5]

A jury won't be deliberating any facts you've invented.
:no:

According to the search warrant, the print on the deck was similar to the Franklin shoe print, not the Hush Puppie shoe print.

You are misrepresenting my post, I would kindly thank you not to do that.

I never said that the print on the deck was the Hushpuppy. I suggest you read before you chastise. TIA

[Jester]

Re your long, revealing post from last night, Jester....

He saw nothing wrong with carrying on with MM....he saw nothing wrong with considering for several months how/when to kill his wife....he saw nothing wrong with leaving his daughter in the middle of that carnage? It seems, in my opinion, you are describing a dangerously disturbed man. If that is true, the questions I asked about common sense do not apply. Also, it seems to me such a disturbed man would be a danger to all around him.

As for the shower and bloody footprints....if the man is truly psychotic, we will never, in my opinion, figure out what happened. Common sense would say he should leave his daughter in her room with the doors to her room and to his room closed. But if common sense doesn't apply, nothing will make sense to us normal people.

Murderers are not normal people, so clearly applying normal expectations to a murderer is an error. Murderers are selfish, psychopathic personality types that care little about the people around them. Primarily, they lack empathy, but can learn to reflect/simulate normal emotional reactions.

Jason thought nothing of flirting with other women at work, at parties, around Michelle, and around his family. Realistically, it was pointless to try to hide his relationship with MM because she was going to let the cat out of the bag. Besides, he couldn't have hidden it even if he wanted to. Even Neil Entwistle, a computer scientist, couldn't hide his electronic footprint.

Jason wanted his freedom, and researched murder methods prior to the murder. This was not a spur of the moment decision. As a psychopath, I doubt he cared much about leaving his daughter at a murder scene. It wouldn't surprise me if Jason viewed small children as stupid rather than un-knowledgeable. He most likely considered her too young for the experience to have an impact. That would be the opinion of a psychopath, not a normal parent.

Psychopaths are only dangerous to people that interfere with what they want, not everyone in their path. Murders committed by psychopaths can be understood and solved, but not in the conceptual framework of rational behavior of normal people.

N'est pas?

[Stellagant]

Umm, the poster didn't say the print on the deck was the Hush Puppie -- it was just an additional comment. Please re-read it.

Also, the poster only appears to be discussing things found in SWs...which I believe we are allowed to do, right? You focus on one. We look at several.

Yes, she did compare the Hush Puppies to the deck stain shoe print. Her words are: "exact same tread." She also hasn't given a link to support her claim that LE has in any way narrowed down the field of owners to that print, which was similar to the Franklin print, not the Hush Puppies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5swab5
Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

[5swab5]

Murderers are not normal people, so clearly applying normal expectations to a murderer is an error. Murderers are selfish, psychopathic personality types that care little about the people around them. Primarily, they lack empathy, but can learn to reflect/simulate normal emotional reactions.

Jason thought nothing of flirting with other women at work, at parties, around Michelle, and around his family. Realistically, it was pointless to try to hide his relationship with MM because she was going to let the cat out of the bag. Besides, he couldn't have hidden it even if he wanted to. Even Neil Entwistle, a computer scientist, couldn't hide his electronic footprint.

Jason wanted his freedom, and researched murder methods prior to the murder. This was not a spur of the moment decision. As a psychopath, I doubt he cared much about leaving his daughter at a murder scene. It wouldn't surprise me if Jason viewed small children as stupid rather than un-knowledgeable. He most likely considered her too young for the experience to have an impact. That would be the opinion of a psychopath, not a normal parent.

Psychopaths are only dangerous to people that interfere with what they want, not everyone in their path. Murders committed by psychopaths can be understood and solved, but not in the conceptual framework of rational behavior of normal people.

N'est pas?

Excellent.

Just like S.Peterson. They are constantly changing to fit into some mold that they think that other people want them to be. Remember Alan's comment about a chameleon? Trouble is, they are only empty shells. They don't have normal emotions or thought processes, they just try to mimic what they see in others.

That's why is would seem OK to Jason to just water down adult meds for his daughter, Cassidy is nothing special. He is not capable of truly caring for her on any level. MOO

[5swab5]

Yes, she did compare the Hush Puppies to the deck stain shoe print. Her words are: "exact same tread." She also hasn't given a link to support her claim that LE has in any way narrowed down the field of owners to that print, which was similar to the Franklin print, not the Hush Puppies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5swab5
Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

I did not. I can't help how you want to read it.

Which part of Add to that, do you not understand?

Two separate pairs of shoes, two separate comments. MOO

[awareness]

Yes, she did compare the Hush Puppies to the deck stain shoe print. Her words are: "exact same tread." She also hasn't given a link to support her claim that LE has in any way narrowed down the field of owners to that print, which was similar to the Franklin print, not the Hush Puppies.


I provided the link to back up Swabby's claim. Here it is again:
http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf
end of page 17, top of page 18

The "unidentified" shoe print was eventually identified as the Hushpuppies print.

Furthermore on page 18 of the above linked warrant it states:
DSW records reflect that on July 4, 2005, Jason Young purchased four pairs of shoes from the DSW Shoe Warehouse in Cary, NC. The four pairs were described as: (leaving out other brands/shoes) 3) Hush Puppies Orbital plain toe slip on men's casual leather shoe, size 12

So it does show that Jason did in fact own a pair of the shoes, the very print that was found at the murder scene.
JMO

[tiny paw-prints]

Does anyone know for sure what kind/type of appointment or meeting that Michelle had during the afternoon on the day prior to the murder? If you know, but cannnot opine about the appt/mtg -- that's okay. TIA

[achristie]

Does anyone know for sure what kind/type of appointment or meeting that Michelle had during the afternoon on the day prior to the murder? If you know, but cannnot opine about the appt/mtg -- that's okay. TIA

Though it's been many moons, I don't recall that ever being nailed down. I think she had lunch with a friend after her appt., though.

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

I provided the link to back up Swabby's claim. Here it is again:
http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf
end of page 17, top of page 18

The "unidentified" shoe print was eventually identified as the Hushpuppies print.

Furthermore on page 18 of the above linked warrant it states:
DSW records reflect that on July 4, 2005, Jason Young purchased four pairs of shoes from the DSW Shoe Warehouse in Cary, NC. The four pairs were described as: (leaving out other brands/shoes) 3) Hush Puppies Orbital plain toe slip on men's casual leather shoe, size 12

So it does show that Jason did in fact own a pair of the shoes, the very print that was found at the murder scene.
JMO


Do you ever stop spinning the truth? 5swab5's post referrenced shoe prints on the deck.

There is NO mention of the deck or shoeprints on the deck in that search warrant you linked. NONE :no:

[awareness]

Do you ever stop spinning the truth? 5swab5's post referrenced shoe prints on the deck.

There is NO mention of the deck or shoeprints on the deck in that search warrant you linked. NONE :no:

No, Swabby's post referenced two different issues regarding the shoes.

If you dont like my posts, feel free to scroll on by.
:wink:
JMO

[Stellagant]

No, Swabby's post referenced two different issues regarding the shoes.

If you dont like my posts, feel free to scroll on by.
:wink:
JMO

Better yet, you and 5swab5 both need to stop misrepresenting facts.
The Hushpuppies print was not similar to the print on the deck and certainly not "exact same tread" as claimed in this post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 5swab5
Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

[kingbuff]

Where did you get the information the shoes vanished?

Maybe the shoes were in Jason's closet and got thrown away with a lot of other stuff. Or maybe the shoes were in the Explorer along with the shirt and all that stuff was thrown away or misplaced by the cops. When was it the cops started looking for shoes and a shirt? I forget.

[Kat4Eagles]

Where did you get the information the shoes vanished?


Beats me.

Re: The lights on..
I think it was either NC Wanted or People Magazine that had pics of the house with the crime tape still up, and you could see that the outside porch light was on and I think a light closer to the road, but I don't have time to look it up right now...

I just know that they were on.......and, if they were on when the news delivery person saw them, I still don't understand why anyone would want to draw attention to the home.

Maybe the outside lights were on with a timer too??

I do know L E was wondering what lights Michelle usually left on at nite, I would think she would leave a light on somewhere inside with her and CY being alone that nite.

I think it was rumored that CY may have slept with Michelle when Jason was gone..so, I am not sure how the medicine that was in her room even plays into this whole thing.

I remember reading here that the Youngs also had trash pick~up that am (the 3rd).........I guess that can be verified by checking trash days in Raleigh....but, I guess that they noticed nothing unusual either, or at least we never heard about it.

Who knows anything anymore?
:shrug:
Kat