Michelle Fisher Young 3-3-09 [Archive] - Page 2

Kat4Eagles

03-05-2009, 11:44 PM

Maybe the shoes were in Jason's closet and got thrown away with a lot of other stuff. Or maybe the shoes were in the Explorer along with the shirt and all that stuff was thrown away or misplaced by the cops. When was it the cops started looking for shoes and a shirt? I forget.

Another good point, KB..
It always seemed to me, it was the fresh set of eyes, L E talked about bringing in, that noticed the 2 different shirts in the videos at the Hampton....maybe the deck planks too,

But, how do you go back and find shoes and a shirt after any given amount of time, and especially why tip off a potential defense dream team of any such items being missing, giving them more than ample time to come up with a reasonable explanation.??

Case is taking way too long and seems to be weakening.
I get more discouraged each day.
Nite!!
:seeya:

Kat
Ps..........Confused, so glad to see you back posting!!

Jester

03-06-2009, 12:05 AM

Those meds in Cassidy's room really bother me. It's not just what is there, but what is missing.

They got Cassidy's reports from her doctor, to make sure that those meds were not prescribed. Where are all the meds that were prescribed? MOO

I'd like to know whether Pat asked Jason when he poisoned Cassidy with adult medicine, and his response. I'm sure that Michelle would never have agree to it ... she was too bright and caring to do something so dangerous. When would Jason have had an opportunity to get away with it except on the night he murdered Michelle?

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 12:35 AM

5swab5

03-06-2009, 01:04 AM

Better yet, you and 5swab5 both need to stop misrepresenting facts.
The Hushpuppies print was not similar to the print on the deck and certainly not "exact same tread" as claimed in this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5swab5
Those shoe prints are a nuisance, that's for sure. Fortunately, the prints in the deck stain/sealer certainly narrows down the field of owners. Add to that, Jason happening to own a pair of hushpuppies with the exact same tread that are now unaccounted for, along with his shirt that night...Jury won't even have to deliberate through lunch. MOO

I'm getting a little tired of this.

I never said that the Hushpuppy print was similar to the one on the deck. Try reading the post instead of just looking for something to twist and jump on. Better yet, scroll on by. TIA

5swab5

03-06-2009, 01:15 AM

Maybe the shoes were in Jason's closet and got thrown away with a lot of other stuff. Or maybe the shoes were in the Explorer along with the shirt and all that stuff was thrown away or misplaced by the cops. When was it the cops started looking for shoes and a shirt? I forget.

You actually expect anyone to believe that LE "threw away or misplaced" Jason's shirt and shoes? That's a laugh.

According to Pat, he didn't remove anything from his vehicle before coming back to Raleigh, so either he got rid of the shirt before he got to Brevard, or Pat lied. There has been a SW since then for the shirt, shoes, stolen :cough: rings, necklaces and bracelets, so it would seem that Pat's word isn't exactly considered gospel. IMO

Doorbell

03-06-2009, 02:52 AM

Murderers are not normal people, so clearly applying normal expectations to a murderer is an error. Murderers are selfish, psychopathic personality types that care little about the people around them. Primarily, they lack empathy, but can learn to reflect/simulate normal emotional reactions.

Jason thought nothing of flirting with other women at work, at parties, around Michelle, and around his family. Realistically, it was pointless to try to hide his relationship with MM because she was going to let the cat out of the bag. Besides, he couldn't have hidden it even if he wanted to. Even Neil Entwistle, a computer scientist, couldn't hide his electronic footprint.

Jason wanted his freedom, and researched murder methods prior to the murder. This was not a spur of the moment decision. As a psychopath, I doubt he cared much about leaving his daughter at a murder scene. It wouldn't surprise me if Jason viewed small children as stupid rather than un-knowledgeable. He most likely considered her too young for the experience to have an impact. That would be the opinion of a psychopath, not a normal parent.

Psychopaths are only dangerous to people that interfere with what they want, not everyone in their path. Murders committed by psychopaths can be understood and solved, but not in the conceptual framework of rational behavior of normal people.

N'est pas?

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

Page 10, a little over halfway down the page:

Kim Young: "Have you thought about the day when she asks you why you were having a relationship with someone else? How is that going to make her feel?"

Jason Young: "Yes I have, and it's not going to be an easy time for me, but it will have to happen. I don't know it's going to make her "feel."

(bolding, mine)

I think this relates directly, Jester, to your point. Jason's only thought about the possibility that Cassidy might eventually ask him why he was involved with another woman, is how difficult that will be for him.

The fact that he put the word, "feel," in quotations leads me to believe that he totally discounted her feelings. The way some people make a "quotes" gesture as they say something, to indicate that they don't take it seriously.

IMO

Jester

03-06-2009, 10:18 AM

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

Page 10, a little over halfway down the page:

Kim Young: "Have you thought about the day when she asks you why you were having a relationship with someone else? How is that going to make her feel?"

Jason Young: "Yes I have, and it's not going to be an easy time for me, but it will have to happen. I don't know how it's going to make her "feel."

(bolding, mine)

I think this relates directly, Jester, to your point. Jason's only thought about the possibility that Cassidy might eventually ask him why he was involved with another woman, is how difficult that will be for him.

The fact that he put the word, "feel," in quotations leads me to believe that he totally discounted her feelings. The way some people make a "quotes" gesture as they say something, to indicate that they don't take it seriously.

IMO

Thank you. I think that goes to supporting the argument that he doesn't have an association with the word "feel", but knows how to use it. Psychopaths don't have an association with the word "feel" either, because they lack empathy. Instead, it becomes a word that they learn to use in context. When they see other people cry because they are sad, they learn to mimic those behaviors. The truly sad thing is that people are not born psychopathic, but become that way due to emotional trauma during early childhood. Was Jason's father ill for a couple of years, and was Jason somewhat (unintentionally) neglected while attention was given to his father?

I agree that he seems to make light of any feelings that Cassidy may have about her father's adultery, instead focusing on how the experience will effect him. Personally, I think the whole idea is a little crazy. Why would Jason ever have to discuss his adultery with his daughter? The words "I made a mistake" would be the only appropriate words if, and that's a big if, Cassidy ever asked about it. I'm surprised Jason doesn't respond to his sister that it's not open for discussion, rather than state that he will find it difficult to discuss his adultery with his daughter. It's a fact that children do not ever want to discuss their parent's sex lives (and Stella, please don't ask for a link).

5swab5

03-06-2009, 11:16 AM

(snipped) Adult Tylenol is 3 times stronger than children's . So if someone gave a third of a teaspoon instead of a teaspoon then you have children's Tylenol. (snipped)

Good Grief!

I hope you keep the "Poison Control Number" by your phone. Wonder why it says in great big bold letters on the side of Adult medicine, Do Not Administer to Children under 12 years of Age.

Do you not trust the pharmaceutical companies along with LE?

They have warnings with hair dryers for a reason too, they say not to use them in the shower, do you also ignore that warning? MOO

Kat4Eagles

03-06-2009, 11:39 AM

Did you notice any words about Pat having a discussion with Jason? Do you recall Jason admitting to giving adult medications to a 2 year old child? Do you understand that adult medications can be poison for children because their internal organs are not sufficiently developed to process adult medications? Did you know that tylenol can damage an adult's liver? Did you know that adult tylenol would be a poison if administered to a 2 year old?

So, was CY poisoned?
She didn't sound poisoned on the 911 call.
:rolleyes:

Kat

Tia

03-06-2009, 11:45 AM

Good Grief!

I hope you keep the "Poison Control Number" by your phone. Wonder why it says in great big bold letters on the side of Adult medicine, Do Not Administer to Children under 12 years of Age.

Do you not trust the pharmaceutical companies along with LE?

They have warnings with hair dryers for a reason too, they say not to use them in the shower, do you also ignore that warning? MOO

The "protection" of Jason is getting desperate. He gave her the meds. They were adult meds. He could have poisoned her very easily. Fortunately, it seems she was just knocked out for a while and woke up to find her mother murdered. We have no way of knowing how long Cassidy was awake before Meredit got there or when Jason gave her the meds, so any effects of the meds, (sleepiness, etc...) could have been long worn off.

5swab5

03-06-2009, 11:50 AM

LOL No I don't have poison control next to my phone .
I think any one with a child should though. Drug companies put the warning on the labels to protect themselves. They are smart that way. Have you noticed on children's it says under 6 ask a doctor? CY was under 6 so children's would have required some math or a Dr. ,also. Any OTC drug can be abused but the drug companies make sure its the parents doing the abusing not them.

Unfortunately, with or without the drug company's admonition, if a parent choses to give adult meds to a child and something goes wrong, the child will be just as dead.

According to Pat, Jason shares your lackadaisical attitude. But, I think most people err on the side of caution and take the warnings seriously. MOO

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 11:53 AM

The "protection" of Jason is getting desperate. He gave her the meds. They were adult meds. He could have poisoned her very easily. Fortunately, it seems she was just knocked out for a while and woke up to find her mother murdered. We have no way of knowing how long Cassidy was awake before Meredit got there or when Jason gave her the meds, so any effects of the meds, (sleepiness, etc...) could have been long worn off.

It says so right on the label:

Overdose warning: Taking more than the recommended dose (overdose) may cause liver damage. In the case of overdose, get medical help or contact a Poison Control Center right away. (1-800-222-1222). Quick medical attention is critical even if you do not notice any signs or symptoms.

And that is for infant tylenol. I can't imagine a responsible parent EVER giving their child adult medicines. And I'm still not convinced that it was the tylenol he gave her. I still think it is more likely that he gave her the pancof. IMO

Kat4Eagles

03-06-2009, 11:59 AM

Unfortunately, with or without the drug company's admonition, if a parent choses to give adult meds to a child and something goes wrong, the child will be just as dead.

According to Pat, Jason shares your lackadaisical attitude. But, I think most people err on the side of caution and take the warnings seriously. MOO

Was CY almost dead when MF found her?
She had been poisoned?
Did MF mention that in the 911 call to get emergency assistance to CY ?
Did they rush CY to the hospital and pump her stomach?
I didn't know any of this, until now.
Wow.
Gosh, when I heard CY on the 911 call, she sounded fine to me.
I had no idea this had happened.
Is there a link?
Kat

Tia

03-06-2009, 12:11 PM

It says so right on the label:

Overdose warning: Taking more than the recommended dose (overdose) may cause liver damage. In the case of overdose, get medical help or contact a Poison Control Center right away. (1-800-222-1222). Quick medical attention is critical even if you do not notice any signs or symptoms.

And that is for infant tylenol. I can't imagine a responsible parent EVER giving their child adult medicines. And I'm still not convinced that it was the tylenol he gave her. I still think it is more likely that he gave her the pancof. IMO

Thats what I think too. He wanted her to sleep late. Kind of like Casey Anthony possibly using chloroform on Caylee to knock her out so she could party.

IMO

Kat4Eagles

03-06-2009, 12:17 PM

Soon.....Did you miss my earlier prediction? LOL

Yes, I think the tailgate party was for Saturday and the guests were expected for Saturday night. I also think this tidbit is common knowledge and cops are quite aware of this fact as well as there was a Friday night guest who cancelled because of illness.

And, in the 911 call, doesn't MF say that Michelle was not even supposed to be home?

So, now she pulls up to a house, that has outside lights on, an unopened or unlocked door,Michelle's car in the garage, a freaking out dog, and bloody footprints everywhere, and a dead body.

I think that would make anyone wonder about someone's observation skills and unawareness to possible danger.

A little scary.

Kat

Kat4Eagles

03-06-2009, 12:20 PM

Did you notice any words about Pat having a discussion with Jason? Do you recall Jason admitting to giving adult medications to a 2 year old child? Do you understand that adult medications can be poison for children because their internal organs are not sufficiently developed to process adult medications? Did you know that tylenol can damage an adult's liver? Did you know that adult tylenol would be a poison if administered to a 2 year old?

Jester, I really think these posion allegations should either have a link or some more proof.
It is one thing to suggest medicine was given to make CY sleep, as per the warrants, but to say she was poisoned?
Come on...and you don't use JMO or IMO.
This is a pretty serious allegation.
:no:
Kat

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 12:23 PM

Thats what I think too. He wanted her to sleep late. Kind of like Casey Anthony possibly using chloroform on Caylee to knock her out so she could party.

IMO

It will be interesting if/when the medical experts testify at trial as to the possible disastrous effects of administering adult medication to such a small child.

Tia

03-06-2009, 12:26 PM

Tia

03-06-2009, 12:30 PM

It will be interesting if/when the medical experts testify at trial as to the possible disastrous effects of administering adult medication to such a small child.

ITA, it will very interesting!

I am so glad that Cassidy will be mainly in Meredith's care. I am sure that even though she has no children, she knows better than to give adult medications to a child!!

JMO

5swab5

03-06-2009, 12:37 PM

ITA, it will very interesting!

I am so glad that Cassidy will be mainly in Meredith's care. I am sure that even though she has no children, she knows better than to give adult medications to a child!!

JMO

Everyone knows it. Supporting the dilution of Adult meds is yet another attempt at making anything and everything that Jason does seem normal. Not Working. Most people want what is best for their children. MOO

Tia

03-06-2009, 12:41 PM

Everyone knows it. Supporting the dilution of Adult meds is yet another attempt at making anything and everything that Jason does seem normal. Not Working. Most people want what is best for their children. MOO

IMO, it seems that everything from cheating on Michelle to giving adult meds to his daughter is just A-OKAY with some.

JMO

Kat4Eagles

03-06-2009, 12:46 PM

Everyone knows it. Supporting the dilution of Adult meds is yet another attempt at making anything and everything that Jason does seem normal. Not Working. Most people want what is best for their children. MOO

No, it is not okay.
But first it has to be proven.
Just like the murder.
Hope this helps.
:)
Kat

Tia

03-06-2009, 12:59 PM

It will be interesting if/when the medical experts testify at trial as to the possible disastrous effects of administering adult medication to such a small child.

And if it was the pancof, he was really playing with fire. He could have killed her, watered down or not.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

Pancof PD Liquid should be used with extreme caution in children, safety and effectiveness in children have not been confirmed.

JMO

5swab5

03-06-2009, 01:15 PM

I think it has been proven that a murder took place. Go read Michelle's autopsy report.

Hope this helps.
:)

Not to mention, the normally formed male fetus, with a biparietal diameter of 4.5cm and crown rump length of approximately 16cm. Known to us as baby Rylan. He never stood a chance. :cursing: MOO

awareness

03-06-2009, 01:26 PM

Jester, I really think these posion allegations should either have a link or some more proof.
It is one thing to suggest medicine was given to make CY sleep, as per the warrants, but to say she was poisoned?
Come on...and you don't use JMO or IMO.
This is a pretty serious allegation.
:no:
Kat

That's funny, some people accuse Meredith of killing Michelle, which IMO is a very serious allegation. More serious than giving their young child adult medicine. Yet where's the outrage over this unfounded accusation against Meredith?

IMO giving a child adult medicine IS the equivalent of poisioning her. I used to work for the company that makes Tylenol, there are strict guidelines for a reason.

JMO

awareness

03-06-2009, 01:28 PM

Another good point, KB..
It always seemed to me, it was the fresh set of eyes, L E talked about bringing in, that noticed the 2 different shirts in the videos at the Hampton....maybe the deck planks too,

But, how do you go back and find shoes and a shirt after any given amount of time, and especially why tip off a potential defense dream team of any such items being missing, giving them more than ample time to come up with a reasonable explanation.??

Case is taking way too long and seems to be weakening.
I get more discouraged each day.
Nite!!
:seeya:

Kat
Ps..........Confused, so glad to see you back posting!!

The case is NOT weakening, but if you feel it is, wow, gee, your opinion. Contrary, its getting stronger with each month lately, the WD, the custody... next up is the WD ruling on 3/16.

JMO

Tia

03-06-2009, 01:30 PM

Not to mention, the normally formed male fetus, with a biparietal diameter of 4.5cm and crown rump length of approximately 16cm. Known to us as baby Rylan. He never stood a chance. :cursing: MOO

So sad. Even if Jason hated Michelle, how could he not want to talk with LE and offer "anything" that could help them capture his unborn son's murderer?

Just one more thing that makes him look guilty, IMO.

Tia

03-06-2009, 01:33 PM

The case is NOT weakening, but if you feel it is, wow, gee, your opinion. Contrary, its getting stronger with each month lately, the WD, the custody... next up is the WD ruling on 3/16.

JMO

Don't let it get to you. Jason is looking worse and worse by the moment and I think some of his supporters are having trouble dealing with it. The case is very much alive and I am looking forward to the WD ruling!!!

JMO

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 03:38 PM

You are spinning again. If there was pancof in the dropper there is no evidence JY gave it. Until prints from the dropper are released only LE knows who handled that dropper.

Jason admitted to his mother that he gave his child adult medicines. It's in one of the warrants.

ETA: Page 20 of the February 9th warrant.

Tia

03-06-2009, 03:39 PM

You are spinning again. If there was pancof in the dropper there is no evidence JY gave it. Until prints from the dropper are released only LE knows who handled that dropper.

Not spinning, I am of the OPINION that he did.
Thats what JMO means.
Hope that helps!

5swab5

03-06-2009, 03:45 PM

Ugh. So sad. I sincerely hope that Michelle never saw who did this to her and Rylan. And if she did, did she beg for her life? Did she beg for Cassidy's life? I hope that the slayer of Michelle and Rylan is haunted daily.

I hope she called him every name in the book and kicked him in the groin. :biggrin:

Jester

03-06-2009, 04:57 PM

We don't know how much Tylenol was gone from the bottle so there is no way to tell if that was the way MY also gave her daughter cough medicine. Adult Tylenol is 3 times stronger than children's . So if someone gave a third of a teaspoon instead of a teaspoon then you have children's Tylenol. MY was smart in math and I bet someone somewhere knows if she gave her daughter medicine that way. This warrant to me sorta sums up LE's case . I think they threw in every thing they had maybe to taint a jury pool maybe not but I noticed something that doesn't seem right. It states that the DNA of CY matched the partial DNA on the dropper but MY's did not match. Wouldn't MY since she was CY's mother share enough markers to have at least matched a partial DNA? Does anyone know what a partial DNA is?

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that Michelle was a bright, conscientious, loving, responsible, well educated mother who knows the difference between medication dosages for infants age 24-36 months and watered down medication for adults. I think we have several "ways to tell" whether Michelle did anything as irresponsible as Jason has admitted to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but mothers are generally very careful with their first born.

Leanne Weich

03-06-2009, 04:58 PM

I don't think CY sounds sleepy on the 911 call. I think she sounds like she may have just came back from visiting with someone. That whole 911 call is strange.

She wouldn't necessarily sound sleepy during the phone call imo. If she had been given meds to make or help her sleep and she'd slept them off and been awake for a while, there is absolutely no reason she should have sounded anything other than chatty. When my g/kids fly here from South Africa, the doctor gives my DD something to help them sleep on the flight and when she wakes them when they get here, they are incredibly chatty when they get off the plane. Had Cassidy been given meds a couple of hours before Meredith arrived and had MY woken her, she might have been cranky because she hadn't slept off the effects, imo.

Jester

03-06-2009, 04:59 PM

Jules2

03-06-2009, 05:00 PM

I don't think CY sounds sleepy on the 911 call. I think she sounds like she may have just came back from visiting with someone. That whole 911 call is strange.

If Cassidy was given medication to make her sleepy, then they surly would have worn off by the time Meredith arrived considering the TOD was determined to be many hours earlier IMO.

And what exactly are you suggesting when you say that she sounded like she just came back from visiting someone?

The SW's state she was found in the bed next to her dead mother.

And if you are going to talk about the 911 call being strange....how about Jason's behavior prior to AND after the murder. You don't find a single thing he did to be strange?

Being a half hour late for his meeting?
Calling his mother 28 times in one day?
Sending his SIL over to his house to retrieve a printout for an ebay item no longer available for bidding?
Ignoring calls from his MIL when he was unable to reach his wife at work or on her cell?

I could go on and on with what I perceive to be strange, but the 911 call is not one of them.

IMO

Jester

03-06-2009, 05:01 PM

Jester

03-06-2009, 05:11 PM

Everyone knows it. Supporting the dilution of Adult meds is yet another attempt at making anything and everything that Jason does seem normal. Not Working. Most people want what is best for their children. MOO

I look forward to the new labels on adult medications stating "dilute for use with children - use own judgment regarding dilution."

Jester

03-06-2009, 05:13 PM

You are spinning again. If there was pancof in the dropper there is no evidence JY gave it. Until prints from the dropper are released only LE knows who handled that dropper.

No evidence other than the evidence provided by Pat, where Jason admitted to her that he gave his two year old daughter watered down adult medication.

Jester

03-06-2009, 05:17 PM

I don't think CY sounds sleepy on the 911 call. I think she sounds like she may have just came back from visiting with someone. That whole 911 call is strange.

What do young children sound like when they come back from visiting someone? Are they talking about their adventure, or are they talking about putting bandaids on the person that is lying murdered (several hours earlier, I might add) in the same room?

Tia

03-06-2009, 05:24 PM

She was in bed after noon wasn't she? I seem to recall reading that she was found on her father's side of the bed. Any child that sleeps until noon either had a very rough night, was poisoned with medication, or both.

In my experience, I've never known a toddler to sleep until noon. I believe she was given something to make her sleep.

Jester

03-06-2009, 05:26 PM

In my experience, I've never known a toddler to sleep until noon. I believe she was given something to make her sleep.

Exactly. Any parent with young children looks forward to sleeping in when their children are teenagers because there's no such thing as toddlers sleeping in without a very serious disturbance to their daily schedule, such as a murder in the middle of the night, or over-medication with something like chloroform, or adult medications (watered down or otherwise).

Tia

03-06-2009, 05:30 PM

No evidence other than the evidence provided by Pat, where Jason admitted to her that he gave his two year old daughter watered down adult medication.

A very important point that seems to get over-looked. Jason admitted it to Pat.

alterEgo©

03-06-2009, 05:47 PM

Don't let it get to you. Jason is looking worse and worse by the moment and I think some of his supporters are having trouble dealing with it. The case is very much alive and I am looking forward to the WD ruling!!!

JMOSince a default judgement was awarded, I'm guessing the jury trial asked for to determine damages won't be happening.

When will the monetary aspects of the WD suit be determined, next week?

Jester

03-06-2009, 06:38 PM

A very important point that seems to get over-looked. Jason admitted it to Pat.

The fact that Jason admitted this to his mother, based on conversations arising from information in the search warrant (I assume), I have to wonder when Pat thought this happened? Michelle was the primary caregiver for Cassidy. Jason went on vacations without his wife and daughter. Michelle went on vacations with her daughter.

What is Jason's story about when he over-medicated/poisoned his daughter? It is his position that this was done with Michelle's knowledge and approval? I seriously doubt it. Was he sneaking this unnecessary medication to his daughter when his wife wasn't looking, and, if so, why? Since he has admitted giving Cassidy the medication, Michelle was the primary caregiver, and it's highly unlikely Michelle knew about it, either he did this behind Michelle's back on a regular basis for the sole purpose (as there can be no other reason) of harming Cassidy, or he did this only on the night of her murder.

When did he medicate Cassidy, why, and since when should medicine be used on a healthy child because she isn't sleeping (prudently watered down, inappropriate dosage, or otherwise)?

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 06:59 PM

She was in bed after noon wasn't she? I seem to recall reading that she was found on her father's side of the bed. Any child that sleeps until noon either had a very rough night, was poisoned with medication, or both.

LE has not said the child was asleep after noon.
LE has not said the child was poisoned.

Why do you keep making up facts?

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:05 PM

The fact that Jason admitted this to his mother, based on conversations arising from information in the search warrant (I assume), I have to wonder when Pat thought this happened? Michelle was the primary caregiver for Cassidy. Jason went on vacations without his wife and daughter. Michelle went on vacations with her daughter.

What is Jason's story about when he over-medicated/poisoned his daughter? It is his position that this was done with Michelle's knowledge and approval? I seriously doubt it. Was he sneaking this unnecessary medication to his daughter when his wife wasn't looking, and, if so, why? Since he has admitted giving Cassidy the medication, Michelle was the primary caregiver, and it's highly unlikely Michelle knew about it, either he did this behind Michelle's back on a regular basis for the sole purpose (as there can be no other reason) of harming Cassidy, or he did this only on the night of her murder.

When did he medicate Cassidy, why, and since when should medicine be used on a healthy child because she isn't sleeping (prudently watered down, inappropriate dosage, or otherwise)?

I thought the wording in the search warrant was interesting. You might need to read it again to see what I'm driving at but it almost sounds like between the time that they came to collect the DNA from Cassidy to the time they came back to serve another warrant, an excuse was given to explain away any evidence that might be found. JMO

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 07:11 PM

I thought the wording in the search warrant was interesting. You might need to read it again to see what I'm driving at but it almost sounds like between the time that they came to collect the DNA from Cassidy to the time they came back to serve another warrant, an excuse was given to explain away any evidence that might be found. JMO

What evidence might that be? The search warrant for the DNA was served six months after the medications were seized.:rolleyes:

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:12 PM

What evidence might that be? The search warrant for the DNA was served six months after the medications were seized.:rolleyes:

:read:

You need to read ALL of the warrants and not selectively pick and choose. I'm sure you can find it. :rolleyes:

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 07:23 PM

:read:

You need to read ALL of the warrants and not selectively pick and choose. I'm sure you can find it. :rolleyes:

All I did was respond to your posting, Barbara2 and I'll rephrase the question: What evidence was found that an excuse was needed to explain away? Because the fact is, the search warrant for the DNA was served nearly two years ago and there still is no arrest.

Originally Posted by Barbara2
I thought the wording in the search warrant was interesting. You might need to read it again to see what I'm driving at but it almost sounds like between the time that they came to collect the DNA from Cassidy to the time they came back to serve another warrant, an excuse was given to explain away any evidence that might be found. JMO

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:26 PM

All I did was respond to your posting, Barbara2 and I'll rephrase the question: What evidence was found that an excuse was needed to explain away? Because the fact is, the search warrant for the DNA was served nearly two years ago and there still is no arrest.

Originally Posted by Barbara2
I thought the wording in the search warrant was interesting. You might need to read it again to see what I'm driving at but it almost sounds like between the time that they came to collect the DNA from Cassidy to the time they came back to serve another warrant, an excuse was given to explain away any evidence that might be found. JMO

Exactly. He gave an excuse to his mother to explain away any evidence that might be found. Do you think he knows all of the evidence that has been collected by the investigators or is he kind of in the dark?

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:27 PM

LE has not said the child was asleep after noon.
LE has not said the child was poisoned.

Why do you keep making up facts?

Like I said, I summarized the numerous SW points about inappropriate use of adult medication, with indications that the dropper was in Cassidy's mouth. What did he do, suck some water into the dropper and then dip it in the medicine to fill up the rest of the dropper? Did he take the medication to the tap, fill up half and half, or third and two thirds medicine water, put the lid back on and shake? How exactly did he water this down if the dropper was in Cassidy's mouth? Did he mix it in his hand?

Medicating a healthy child with adult medication, prudently diluted or otherwise, is child abuse. She was not sick. It's highly unlikely Michelle approved of Jason's diluted, and unnecessary poisons. If Cassidy was sick, she would be seen by a doctor, the doctor would recommend something for children, and Michelle would have ensured that Cassidy had the medical care she required.

Explain to me why Jason was medicating Cassidy? Any reason.

Cassidy was found on Jason's side of the bed after noon on the day her mother was murdered.

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:32 PM

I thought the wording in the search warrant was interesting. You might need to read it again to see what I'm driving at but it almost sounds like between the time that they came to collect the DNA from Cassidy to the time they came back to serve another warrant, an excuse was given to explain away any evidence that might be found. JMO

Who gave an explanation? Jason has not spoken with the police. Was an innocent explanation given by friends of the family?

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:34 PM

Exactly. He gave an excuse to his mother to explain away any evidence that might be found. Do you think he knows all of the evidence that has been collected by the investigators or is he kind of in the dark?

I understand. Your saying the timeline is all screwed up. He offered an explanation for giving adult medication to his 2 year old daughter prior to the police making inquiries about the medication?

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:35 PM

Who gave an explanation? Jason has not spoken with the police. Was an innocent explanation given by friends of the family?

Pat gave an explanation of why Jason's fingerprints or any other evidence might be found on the medicine/dropper. She claimed that the explanation was given to her by her son. IMO

Oh, and I don't think there is any innocent explanation. I don't know of any parents who give their two year old adult medications.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:39 PM

I understand. Your saying the timeline is all screwed up. He offered an explanation for giving adult medication to his 2 year old daughter prior to the police making inquiries about the medication?

He gave the explanation after the investigators came to the house and took a DNA swab from his daughter. They explained in the probable cause section of the search warrant that the location of the medicines in her room made them suspicious. He gave the excuse after he knew what the investigators were searching for. IMO

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:40 PM

Pat gave an explanation of why Jason's fingerprints or any other evidence might be found on the medicine/dropper. She claimed that the explanation was given to her by her son. IMO

Oh, and I don't think there is any innocent explanation. I don't know of any parents who give their two year old adult medications.

No, there is no innocent explanation for giving Cassidy adult medication. Jason and Michelle were both well educated professionals. Jason wasn't exactly a member of any professional organization, but he has a couple of letters behind his name. Michelle would have been responsible for seeking and providing medical care to Cassidy if she was sick. There would never be a need to improvise.

Jason's pre-emptive strike has raised some interesting questions.

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 07:48 PM

Like I said, I summarized the numerous SW points about inappropriate use of adult medication, with indications that the dropper was in Cassidy's mouth. What did he do, suck some water into the dropper and then dip it in the medicine to fill up the rest of the dropper? Did he take the medication to the tap, fill up half and half, or third and two thirds medicine water, put the lid back on and shake? How exactly did he water this down if the dropper was in Cassidy's mouth? Did he mix it in his hand?

Medicating a healthy child with adult medication, prudently diluted or otherwise, is child abuse. She was not sick. It's highly unlikely Michelle approved of Jason's diluted, and unnecessary poisons. If Cassidy was sick, she would be seen by a doctor, the doctor would recommend something for children, and Michelle would have ensured that Cassidy had the medical care she required.

Explain to me why Jason was medicating Cassidy? Any reason.

Cassidy was found on Jason's side of the bed after noon on the day her mother was murdered.

Enough with your rants. Medication is not "poison."

Meredith told LE she found CY on Jason's side of the bed. LE hasn't said Meredith told them Cassidy was asleep. That's yet another "fact" you invented.

You do not know that Cassidy Young wasn't sick when she was given medication by her parents. You keep claiming Jason "poisoned" his daughter is fact when it is nothing more than your incredibly uninformed opinion.

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:49 PM

He gave the explanation after the investigators came to the house and took a DNA swab from his daughter. They explained in the probable cause section of the search warrant that the location of the medicines in her room made them suspicious. He gave the excuse after he knew what the investigators were searching for. IMO

So ... chronologically ...
1. the police use the medication to get a warrant for DNA,
2. the police took Cassidy's DNA,
3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle, and
5. it was learned that Cassidy's DNA was on the medication dropper?

Any reason given for giving the medicine in the first place?

That reminds me of the line from criminals: I didn't do it, but if I did, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, he made me do it.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:54 PM

So ... chronologically ...
1. the police use the medication to get a warrant for DNA,
2. the police took Cassidy's DNA,
3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle, and
5. it was learned that Cassidy's DNA was on the medication dropper?

Any reason given for giving the medicine in the first place?

That reminds me of the line from criminals: I didn't do it, but if I did, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, he made me do it.

Very clear and succinct synopsis. That is definitely it in a nutshell.

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 07:55 PM

Exactly. He gave an excuse to his mother to explain away any evidence that might be found. Do you think he knows all of the evidence that has been collected by the investigators or is he kind of in the dark?

Sounds as though that "excuse" satisfied investigators because here we are months later and still no arrest of Jason Young.

If there was real evidence the child was drugged by her father that night, Jason Young would be arrested by now.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 07:56 PM

Sounds as though that "excuse" satisfied investigators because here we are months later and still no arrest of Jason Young.

If there was real evidence the child was drugged by her father that night, Jason Young would be arrested by now.

No one has been arrested. That means the murderer remains free. I think the one thing that we can ALL agree on is that Michelle was in fact murdered.

Jester

03-06-2009, 07:58 PM

Enough with your rants. Medication is not "poison."

Meredith told LE she found CY on Jason's side of the bed. LE hasn't said Meredith told them Cassidy was asleep. That's yet another "fact" you invented.

You do not know that Cassidy Young wasn't sick when she was given medication by her parents. You keep claiming Jason "poisoned" his daughter is fact when it is nothing more than your incredibly uninformed opinion.

Someone pointed out earlier that: even alcohol in the wrong dosage can be deadly. What is wrong with saying that administering adult medication (prudently diluted or otherwise) to a healthy 2 year old child is equivalent to poisoning a child?

Okay sure, this 2 year old child wasn't sick or sleeping, but was lying on her father's side of the bed in the afternoon on the day her mother was discovered murdered. Her feet were clean, suggesting both that she was not awake and walking in the room, and the bloody footprints were made before her father medicated her.

You seem to repeat that if something was not written in a search warrant, it cannot be true. I am not here to reiterate what is written in the search warrants, I am here to learn and debate opinions about how that information can be interpreted. I am not inventing anything, I am interpreting. For example, adult medicine given to a healthy two year old child is child abuse, and a form of poisoning. Think about Münchhausens.

How would you interpret the information? Do you have an opinion?

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 08:02 PM

Very clear and succinct synopsis. That is definitely it in a nutshell.

Really? How about providing a link to support the part bolded. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jester
So ... chronologically ...
1. the police use the medication to get a warrant for DNA,
2. the police took Cassidy's DNA,
3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle, and
5. it was learned that Cassidy's DNA was on the medication dropper?

Any reason given for giving the medicine in the first place?

That reminds me of the line from criminals: I didn't do it, but if I did, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, he made me do it.

Jester

03-06-2009, 08:03 PM

Very clear and succinct synopsis. That is definitely it in a nutshell.

Thanks. Let's hope this attempted preemptive strike is a double edged sword and is the straw that breaks the camels back.

I wonder if Pat has the guts to ask Jason when he thought it was appropriate to give Cassidy adult medication. Regularly? With Michelle's consent? Only when he thought she was sick? To help her sleep?

Does she have the courage to ask him if Michelle didn't take time to have Cassidy seen by a doctor if she was sick, and whether she couldn't afford appropriate medication for Cassidy? If Michelle provided for Cassidy's medical care, why was he diluting adult medication?

Jester

03-06-2009, 08:08 PM

Sounds as though that "excuse" satisfied investigators because here we are months later and still no arrest of Jason Young.

If there was real evidence the child was drugged by her father that night, Jason Young would be arrested by now.

I wouldn't be too rushed to judgment. People have said for almost the entire duration of the case that it was taking to long and therefore Jason must be innocent. That is not the case, logically speaking.

"If there was real evidence the child was drugged by her father that night, Jason Young would" only be guilty of child neglect, child abuse, inappropriate parenting practices or whatever. It's not enough to result in an arrest for murder, surprisingly, or not.

Jester

03-06-2009, 08:10 PM

Really? How about providing a link to support the part bolded. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jester
So ... chronologically ...
1. the police use the medication to get a warrant for DNA,
2. the police took Cassidy's DNA,
3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle, and
5. it was learned that Cassidy's DNA was on the medication dropper?

Any reason given for giving the medicine in the first place?

That reminds me of the line from criminals: I didn't do it, but if I did, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, he made me do it.

Her DNA was found on the dropper - the part that goes in the mouth - so whether he said her DNA may be on the dropper, or he may have put it in her mouth, is completely irrelevant.

If he made excuses about DNA on the bottle, he may have mentioned that his were there too. Also irrelevant. His DNA would be expected to be on the bottle, and easily explained. It is Cassidy's DNA on the dropper that is a wee bit of a problem.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 08:27 PM

Her DNA was found on the dropper - the part that goes in the mouth - so whether he said her DNA may be on the dropper, or he may have put it in her mouth, is completely irrelevant.

If he made excuses about DNA on the bottle, he may have mentioned that his were there too. Also irrelevant. His DNA would be expected to be on the bottle, and easily explained. It is Cassidy's DNA on the dropper that is a wee bit of a problem.

A person can look at one brush stroke and say, "this doesn't look like anything" or they can step back and look at the big picture. Sometimes perspective makes all the difference in the world. IMO

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 08:35 PM

Someone pointed out earlier that: even alcohol in the wrong dosage can be deadly. What is wrong with saying that administering adult medication (prudently diluted or otherwise) to a healthy 2 year old child is equivalent to poisoning a child?

Okay sure, this 2 year old child wasn't sick or sleeping, but was lying on her father's side of the bed in the afternoon on the day her mother was discovered murdered. Her feet were clean, suggesting both that she was not awake and walking in the room, and the bloody footprints were made before her father medicated her.

You seem to repeat that if something was not written in a search warrant, it cannot be true. I am not here to reiterate what is written in the search warrants, I am here to learn and debate opinions about how that information can be interpreted. I am not inventing anything, I am interpreting. For example, adult medicine given to a healthy two year old child is child abuse, and a form of poisoning. Think about Münchhausens.

How would you interpret the information? Do you have an opinion?

You keep stating your opinion as fact. I don't do that.

LE hasn't accused Jason of child abuse. LE hasn't said the child was unnecessarily given medications by her parents, LE hasn't said the child was poisoned. That's all just your baseless accusations that you keep stating as fact.

fyi: Tylenol does not contain alcohol.

LE hasn't suggested Jason gave any medicine to CY the night of the murder or that he gave her the medicine after he cleaned her feet. LE theorized her clean feet is an indication she was removed from the scene altogether.

I'm not sure why you keep posting information that is either fabricated or has absolutely nothing to do with this case. It seems to be a game with you.

Stellagant

03-06-2009, 08:39 PM

Her DNA was found on the dropper - the part that goes in the mouth - so whether he said her DNA may be on the dropper, or he may have put it in her mouth, is completely irrelevant.

If he made excuses about DNA on the bottle, he may have mentioned that his were there too. Also irrelevant. His DNA would be expected to be on the bottle, and easily explained. It is Cassidy's DNA on the dropper that is a wee bit of a problem.

I asked for a link to support your claim this is what he told his mother:

3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle,

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 08:46 PM

I asked for a link to support your claim this is what he told his mother:

3. Jason told his mom her may have put the adult medication dropper in his daughter's mouth
4. that if he put the dropper in her mouth, the medicine was watered down,
4. that his fingerprints may be on the bottle,

You're looking at brushstrokes again. IMO

Tia

03-06-2009, 08:59 PM

Doorbell

03-06-2009, 09:00 PM

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 09:03 PM

We have no way at this time telling who did what with the medicine but I find it very strange that LE found no childrens medicine in CY's room.

As referenced in the February 9th search warrant, Jason admitted to his mother that he gave adult medicines to his child. That is what we know according to the search warrants.

achristie

03-06-2009, 09:07 PM

Respectfully snipped......

Jason's pre-emptive strike has raised some interesting questions.[/QUOTE]

It did for me, the moment I read it in the SW. For the last 2 years we've heard nothing but the man has remained mute per his atty's advice.

Why the need to explain this to his mother? Pre-emptive, for sure.

MOO Aggie

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Do you not find it strange that LE found no children's medicine in the child's room? Did she never have a cold? If so what did MY give her? Did she always leave the medicating up to JY? Did she know JY was using watered down adult medicine?

I've never known anyone to keep any medication, child or otherwise, IN the child's room. That doesn't make sense and it obviously looked out of place to LE as well. That's why it raised a red flag in their investigation.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 09:21 PM

The last warrant I saw said the simplest way to keep the child clean was to remove her from the home.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083955/1228504020-20081205131306653.pdf

Simplest way, not the only way. Even seasoned homicide investigators have a hard time thinking like a murderer.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 09:24 PM

So you believe that someone that killed MY and has stayed free for 2 years was dumb enough to leave 2 bottles of adult medicine in the childs room?
<snipped>

Dumb or careless? All murderers make mistakes.

achristie

03-06-2009, 09:46 PM

The days of cutting an adult aspirin in half to medicate a child are long past. If Cassidy needed medicine, anything other than what was prescribed or recommended by her pediatrician is improper.

Many adult medications have a different effect on children than they do on adults. In all my 31 years of parenting, I never gave adult meds to a child under 12. Never.

If it is different from poisoning, it's a fine line.

IMO

Good point. In fact, the days of giving children aspirin, period, are long gone.

MOO Aggie

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 09:47 PM

I just can't piece the medicine to the murder. Where was the medicine before the murder if not where LE found it? If it was in the bathroom why not just give it to the child while she was being washed up? We know she was cleaned up. Thats a fact. So do you think whoever washed her up took her and the medicine into her room then gave her some and then placed it on the shelf? Why ? Makes no sense, I think the medicine was always on the childs shelf and I don't think any one gave her any the night of the murder. I think what the paper man saw being loaded into a car was the child. From the link to the warrant I gave above I think LE is thinking just like I am.

I'm imagining panic which equates to "no sense". I've never murdered someone so I can't begin to figure out how a murderer thinks. I have to believe that things don't go well and some things end up out of place. That's what investigators look for and find. Murderers wish they wouldn't be so observant but that's how murderers get caught.

alterEgo©

03-06-2009, 10:00 PM

I've never known anyone to keep any medication, child or otherwise, IN the child's room. That doesn't make sense and it obviously looked out of place to LE as well. That's why it raised a red flag in their investigation.
In the picture in the SW, it looks like there is other meds in the hutch beside the adult stuff.

Barbara2

03-06-2009, 10:01 PM

In the picture in the SW, it looks like there is other meds in the hutch beside the adult stuff.

I'm almost positive that it was mentioned what else was there. I thought it was vitamins but I'm not sure. I believe it was in one of the search warrants.

Doorbell

03-06-2009, 11:09 PM

Do you not find it strange that LE found no children's medicine in the child's room? Did she never have a cold? If so what did MY give her? Did she always leave the medicating up to JY? Did she know JY was using watered down adult medicine?

I can think of a couple of possibilities. The children's medications could have been kept somewhere else, behind a child-proof latch. I always kept such things where the little ones couldn''t see them or get to them.

Or, Michelle and Jason might have been the sort of parents who throw out any unused meds after they've been open for a certain amount of time.

IMO

Doorbell

03-06-2009, 11:11 PM

So you believe that someone that killed MY and has stayed free for 2 years was dumb enough to leave 2 bottles of adult medicine in the childs room? I believe there are people that saw that medicine there long before MY was murdered and can swear to it. Now until someone is tried in a court of law we won't know for sure.

Well, that's what speculation is for.

He could have just been under stress and forgot about it.

IMO

Jester

03-07-2009, 02:51 AM

A person can look at one brush stroke and say, "this doesn't look like anything" or they can step back and look at the big picture. Sometimes perspective makes all the difference in the world. IMO

Are you commenting on the length of the investigation?

Jester

03-07-2009, 03:11 AM

You keep stating your opinion as fact. I don't do that.

LE hasn't accused Jason of child abuse. LE hasn't said the child was unnecessarily given medications by her parents, LE hasn't said the child was poisoned. That's all just your baseless accusations that you keep stating as fact.

fyi: Tylenol does not contain alcohol.

LE hasn't suggested Jason gave any medicine to CY the night of the murder or that he gave her the medicine after he cleaned her feet. LE theorized her clean feet is an indication she was removed from the scene altogether.

I'm not sure why you keep posting information that is either fabricated or has absolutely nothing to do with this case. It seems to be a game with you.

I don't know how you express your opinion ... fact, prudently diluted, or otherwise.

Are you going back to the warrants where you synopsize that no one has written a legal document stating that over medicating a child is bad thing? How about the fact that the child was taken away from the father after this information was revealed in a search warrant. Jason over-medicated his 2 year old daughter either on the evening that her mother was murdered or behind Michelle's back? Custody has been removed from the father (Jason Lynn Young), and he will now enjoy 4 days a month with his child until she is 18 years old. That's 14 years from now ... could that mean he was a danger to his child?

If you think this is a game, you are most likely amongst those that think no arrest means everyone is innocent. Wanna start a countdown of how many days since the murder?l

Tylenol, for your information, even in appropriate dosages, results in known liver damage. What do you think pancof does to a healthy 2 year old child?

I think we've finally started to discuss information that has to do with this case. Thanks to King Buff (what an odd name) for putting the discussion back on track. Could you perhaps ask Pat when Jason drugged Cassidy?

Jester

03-07-2009, 03:38 AM

OK since you constantly base most of your posts on "poisoning" & I'm not sure anyone has asked for proof so I am.

From what I clipped of your post above, WHEN DID HE OVERMEDICATE/POISON HIS DAUGHTER. You say he admittedit, so it must be written somewhere or you talked to him personally. Please give the article or the link here or don't discuss it anymore WITHOUT PROOF. I'm assuming if you have proof then you also have notified the LE of your information as I see no reference that LE has this info.

Thank you.

I don't know when Jason over-medicated, or poisoned, his daughter. I'm hoping that Pat Young asked Jason when he did it, and that there is an answer.

I have read the regulations regarding plagiarism, links, quotes, and outside sources. From what I understand, I am restricted from directly quoting an outside source without references. I am still unclear on the required protocol.

Regarding the comment of poison, Jason has admitted to giving his healthy 2 year old child adult medications. That is the same as poisoning a child. If she was really sick, her mother would have ensured that children's medication was available. There is no conceivable reason for Michelle's husband to dilute adult medication for his daughter because Michelle would have ensured that Cassidy had the appropriate medication to treat any medical illness. Cassidy had medical care through Michelle's work related insurance - there was no reason for Jason to improvise with dilutung adult medication if Cassidy was ill.

His mother has testified to this. Although he claims that the medications were diluted, we know from search warrants that a dropper with medication and Cassidy's DNA indicates a dropper from the adult medication was in her mouth. There is no indication that the medication was diluted. This is all in the November 6, 2008 search warrant.

I have proof that Jason admitted to giving adult medication to his 2 year old daughter. I have proof that he told his mother that he diluted the medication. The link to Jason's conversation with his mother, admitting to medicating his daughter, has been linked several times in the last two days. Here: http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/11/06/3914018/20081106190923866.pdf

Between putting ideas in my own words, poisoning and describing a man that medicated his daughter with adult medication and subsequently lost custody of his daughter, this case really isn't that baffling.

Jester

03-07-2009, 03:53 AM

You keep stating your opinion as fact. I don't do that.

LE hasn't accused Jason of child abuse. LE hasn't said the child was unnecessarily given medications by her parents, LE hasn't said the child was poisoned. That's all just your baseless accusations that you keep stating as fact.

fyi: Tylenol does not contain alcohol.

LE hasn't suggested Jason gave any medicine to CY the night of the murder or that he gave her the medicine after he cleaned her feet. LE theorized her clean feet is an indication she was removed from the scene altogether.

I'm not sure why you keep posting information that is either fabricated or has absolutely nothing to do with this case. It seems to be a game with you.

The fact that Jason gave adult medicine to his daughter is very relevant. When did he do it? Behind Michelle's back? With her agreement? Sneakily? On the evening of Michelle's murder? When would Jason have had a reason to give Cassidy adult medicine like pancof and tylenol, or a combination thereof?

Pat has stated that Jason told her he over medicated his daughter. He claimed that he diluted adult medicine with water and gave it to his daughter, but how exactly did he do that? Did he dilute the medicine bottle, did he try to dilute the dropper, or did he mix water 2 thirds to one third medicine as was recommended earlier on this thread?

Police have indeed suggested that there are some serious concerns about Jason medicating his daughter in the search warrants. Police did not promote any theories about why Cassidy left footprints at the murder scene but had clean feet when discovered in the afternoon sleeping on her father side of the bed. What is your theory about the crime, scene, and people at the scene?

Jester

03-07-2009, 03:56 AM

Well, that's what speculation is for.

He could have just been under stress and forgot about it.

IMO

Are you suggesting that, on speculation or under stress, the medication could have eluded him so he gave whatever was available? How often do you think that happened and do you think Michelle was aware of the speculation/stress "re" actions of Jason?

Cardinal

03-07-2009, 08:38 AM

According to the SW, aside from the Tylenol and Pancof CD, the other items on the shelf in Cassidy's room were "...Eckerd's brand children's vitamins, children's Gummy Vites vitamins, a bottle of Hot Steam Liquid, and two additional bottles whose labels cannot be read. One of the bottles appears to contain a white cream-like substance."

Vitamins, humidifier liquid and some kind of cream. With the possible exception of the other bottle whose label can't be read, no children's medications that could be taken internally. Exactly what I'd expect from a mother as conscientious as I believe Michelle to have been.

I believe Michelle would have secured any children's medications AND adult medications in a place inaccessible by Cassidy. The same place. So if the killer went to retrieve something to cause Cassidy to sleep soundly and long, the adult medications would have been just as handy as the children's medications. And likely perceived as more appropriate to the job at hand.

While this points to no one in particular, I too find it interesting that Jason felt the need to explain to Pat that he gave Cassidy "the adult cold medicines." [emphasis added] Diluted or not. Why would he reveal this one thing to Pat when he allegedly hasn't discussed anything else about the case with her?

Btw, confused, the paper delivery person didn't say s/he saw something being loaded into the vehicle. S/he said the vehicle was parked in such a manner that made him/her think something was being loaded or unloaded. I think that means simply that the back liftgate and/or the doors were open.

Also, since the SW makes a point of comparing the vehicle seen by the paper delivery person to Jason's Explorer rather than Michelle's Lexus, it appears to me that in Feb 08 LE believed the observed vehicle to be Jason's rather than Michelle's. Which implies to me that if LE still believed at that time that Cassidy was removed from the house as opposed to believing she was medicated to sleep, they believe she was removed in Jason's vehicle.

JMO

kingbuff

03-07-2009, 12:55 PM

kingbuff

03-07-2009, 01:23 PM

I don't know how you express your opinion ... fact, prudently diluted, or otherwise.

Are you going back to the warrants where you synopsize that no one has written a legal document stating that over medicating a child is bad thing? How about the fact that the child was taken away from the father after this information was revealed in a search warrant. Jason over-medicated his 2 year old daughter either on the evening that her mother was murdered or behind Michelle's back? Custody has been removed from the father (Jason Lynn Young), and he will now enjoy 4 days a month with his child until she is 18 years old. That's 14 years from now ... could that mean he was a danger to his child?
SNIPPED

Okay, I think CW did not like my original post. I've done a rewrite and will try it again. If it's poofed again, I'll give up on it.

In college debate we called this false cause-and-effect reasoning. Effect: He signed a consent agreement? Cause: A search warrant about medicine??? See how ridiculous that is? By the way, the medical SW was executed July 2007. The consent agreement was signed February 2009. Does anyone still see a connection?

And then we see the either/or trick some posters have protested when it was tried by others. We pretend a fact has been established (Jason overmedicated his daughter). Then we compound the trick by giving only two choices unrelated to each other (he did it the night of the murder or he did it behind Michelle's back) with no proof he did either and without giving other options.

We then pretend to engage the readers by asking an obvious question. If in July 2007 the police thought Cassie was in danger, would they wait until Feb. '09 to urge the Fishers to remove her from the danger? No. The police would have acted immediately to bring in child protection services. This makes it seem we have no confidence in the police.

This post also seems to underestimate the intelligence of the posters on this board. We think others don't see through our weak arguments? I think it obvious I am not the brightest light on the board, so when even I can point out logic failures, I imagine others just laugh and move on.

5swab5

03-07-2009, 01:52 PM

The poster's certitude with opinion is annoying. I think it even annoyed CW. I think I will just treat the poster's "facts" as ordinary opinions and respond as I would to any other opinion. Other posters are free to swallow the "facts" if they choose....of course.

I disagree. It is obvious that Jasper has contemplated long and hard about the situation at hand.

It is dangerous to liken diluting adult meds and giving them to a child to ordering a "child's portion" at a restaurant.

I for one enjoy her/his insightful and thoughtful posts.

Jason admitted to his mother that he diluted adult meds and gave them to Cassidy (please notice that Pat did not say that Jason said: that he AND Michelle did such a thing), your indignation should be directed at Jason, not a poster on a message board. MOO

kingbuff

03-07-2009, 01:57 PM

I just wrote a big long message and it went poof KC. I don't think CW had anything to do with it. I think its just that we are using machines that sometimes don't work correct. Computers are wonderful but they are still missing the human element.

You're probably right. I've learned to write long posts somewhere else before trying to post.

alterEgo©

03-07-2009, 01:58 PM

Thank you. The above should also eliminate any further mail to me regarding same.
Nothing in Jester's 'reasoning' shows or proves that Jason poisoned his daughter. Jason's mother, according to a SW, told LE that Jason told her that he gave Cassidy adult Tylenol which he watered down first.

That is NOT poisoning by any stretch of the imagination.

alterEgo©

03-07-2009, 02:04 PM

snipped

Also, since the SW makes a point of comparing the vehicle seen by the paper delivery person to Jason's Explorer rather than Michelle's Lexus, it appears to me that in Feb 08 LE believed the observed vehicle to be Jason's rather than Michelle's. Which implies to me that if LE still believed at that time that Cassidy was removed from the house as opposed to believing she was medicated to sleep, they believe she was removed in Jason's vehicle.

JMO
The SW only says the NYT person said it was 'similar' to Jason's. It made no mention of any comparison to Michelle's vehicle.

Barbara2

03-07-2009, 02:09 PM

Nothing in Jester's 'reasoning' shows or proves that Jason poisoned his daughter. Jason's mother, according to a SW, told LE that Jason told her that he gave Cassidy adult Tylenol which he watered down first.

That is NOT poisoning by any stretch of the imagination.

No where in this statement is Tylenol mentioned:

"On February 14, 2008 I along with other investigators returned to Brevard, NC in order to serve additional search warrants in connection with this investigation. During this time the situation with the adult cold medicines being in Cassidy Young's room was brought up with Pat Young. She stated that her son, Jason Young had said that he gave Cassidy Young the adult cold medicines. However, according to Mrs. Young, he claimed to have diluted them with water first.

A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI Laboratory Report states the following: 'The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young and DID NOT MATCH the DNA profiles of Michelle Young...'"

Cold medicines, plural is mentioned and the Pancof PD is mentioned. I don't see anything about Tylenol.

alterEgo©

03-07-2009, 02:31 PM

No where in this statement is Tylenol mentioned:

"On February 14, 2008 I along with other investigators returned to Brevard, NC in order to serve additional search warrants in connection with this investigation. During this time the situation with the adult cold medicines being in Cassidy Young's room was brought up with Pat Young. She stated that her son, Jason Young had said that he gave Cassidy Young the adult cold medicines. However, according to Mrs. Young, he claimed to have diluted them with water first.

A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI Laboratory Report states the following: 'The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young and DID NOT MATCH the DNA profiles of Michelle Young...'"

Cold medicines, plural is mentioned and the Pancof PD is mentioned. I don't see anything about Tylenol.
Huh? I'm going off Jester's 'logic'

Regarding the comment of poison, Jason has admitted to giving his healthy 2 year old child adult medications. That is the same as poisoning a child.

Jason's 'admission' was to giving his daughter watered down Tylenol. That is not poisoning.

annalyzer

03-07-2009, 02:40 PM

In the picture in the SW, it looks like there is other meds in the hutch beside the adult stuff.

I think those meds were kept/left right where they were found, in Cassidy's room. I don't believe Jason tried to overdose her with cold meds and then set the meds on a shelf in her room. Oh and then put her to bed in his room next to her dead mother. :unsure:

If he was going to try to over medicate Cassidy why not just put the med bottle on the floor of the bathroom or bedroom to make it look like the child got into the meds while alone in the house?

Barbara2

03-07-2009, 02:44 PM

Its mentioned in this warrant . LE did a warrant for CY using Tylenol as a reason and then tested a pancof dropper. Was Tylenol in the Pancof dropper we don't know . LE doesn't say what was in the dropper.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf

There was most certainly Tylenol adult cold medicine in the picture. The investigators did mention it in getting the warrant for the DNA test. After the results were returned, the only medicine mentioned by name in the most recent search warrant is the Pancof. It may not mean anything but it is in fact the only medicine mentioned in the section of the warrant where the statement from Pat Young is included.

Doorbell

03-07-2009, 03:45 PM

Are you suggesting that, on speculation or under stress, the medication could have eluded him so he gave whatever was available? How often do you think that happened and do you think Michelle was aware of the speculation/stress "re" actions of Jason?

No. I was suggesting that he might have left the bottles of medicine in Cassidy's room due to the stress of killing his wife. IOW, he had other things on his mind besides replacing the meds wherever they came from.

IMO

Cardinal

03-07-2009, 03:59 PM

The SW only says the NYT person said it was 'similar' to Jason's. It made no mention of any comparison to Michelle's vehicle.

Exactly my point, AE. Confused said s/he thought the paper person saw Cassidy being loaded into a vehicle. The comparison in the SW was to Jason's vehicle not to Michelle's. Whatever vehicle was there, as of Feb 08 LE seems to believe it was Jason's.

kingbuff

03-07-2009, 07:23 PM

Exactly my point, AE. Confused said s/he thought the paper person saw Cassidy being loaded into a vehicle. The comparison in the SW was to Jason's vehicle not to Michelle's. Whatever vehicle was there, as of Feb 08 LE seems to believe it was Jason's.

Maybe the cops have the same problem as some of us....tunnel vision. Maybe the cops, like some of us, get a theory in mind and can't consider other theories.

The vehicles, for example. Suppose there were three cars at the house that night: Michelle's (originally in the garage), Meredith's (according to some theories), and the killer's (according to some theories). Maybe Michelle's car was moved at some point to hide a more conspicuous vehicle. Yeah, there goes the key switch again. Sorry about that. Don't want to bring that up again.

5swab5

03-07-2009, 07:33 PM

Maybe the cops have the same problem as some of us....tunnel vision. Maybe the cops, like some of us, get a theory in mind and can't consider other theories.

The vehicles, for example. Suppose there were three cars at the house that night: Michelle's (originally in the garage), Meredith's (according to some theories), and the killer's (according to some theories). Maybe Michelle's car was moved at some point to hide a more conspicuous vehicle. Yeah, there goes the key switch again. Sorry about that. Don't want to bring that up again.

No way in the world that Meredith would have returned to the house on that ridiculous request of Jason, if she had anything to do with the murders.

Isn't it enough that she picks up Jason's slack in raising Cassidy? Now you want to blame her for the murders too.

Try the KISS method instead of pretzel logic, your head will hurt less. MOO.

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 07:34 PM

Exactly my point, AE. Confused said s/he thought the paper person saw Cassidy being loaded into a vehicle. The comparison in the SW was to Jason's vehicle not to Michelle's. Whatever vehicle was there, as of Feb 08 LE seems to believe it was Jason's.

That's what you are inferring from the warrant but not necessarily what LE believes to be true. I'm pretty sure LE wouldn't have obtained a search warrant for Michelle's vehicle if they believed it was Jason's vehicle seen by the witness. Fact is, both vehicles are similar to the vehicle seen by the witness.

Cardinal

03-07-2009, 07:35 PM

Maybe the cops have the same problem as some of us....tunnel vision. Maybe the cops, like some of us, get a theory in mind and can't consider other theories.

The vehicles, for example. Suppose there were three cars at the house that night: Michelle's (originally in the garage), Meredith's (according to some theories), and the killer's (according to some theories). Maybe Michelle's car was moved at some point to hide a more conspicuous vehicle. Yeah, there goes the key switch again. Sorry about that. Don't want to bring that up again.

Okay - let's say 3 cars at the house that night: Michelle's (obviously), perhaps Meredith's and the killer's definitely. The car seen by the paper delivery person was not Meredith's - the paper delivery person saw an SUV, described as similar to a Ford Explorer. Which also rules out Michelle's car.

So if the killer's car was outside, to be seen by the paper delivery person, where was Michelle's car and Meredith's car? Only one of them could fit into the garage. Unless you think either Michelle's car or Meredith's car was removed from the scene at the time observed by the paper delivery person? Leaving the killer's car visible? How did the killer get back to retrieve their car?

Cardinal

03-07-2009, 07:38 PM

That's what you are inferring from the warrant but not necessarily what LE believes to be true. I'm pretty sure LE wouldn't have obtained a search warrant for Michelle's vehicle if they believed it was Jason's vehicle seen by the witness. Fact is, both vehicles are similar to the vehicle seen by the witness.

Are you pretty sure? I'm not. I think if LE believed it was Michelle's car that was seen by the paper delivery person, they would have compared the vehicle to a Lexus rather than an Explorer.

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:15 PM

The fact that Jason gave adult medicine to his daughter is very relevant. When did he do it? Behind Michelle's back? With her agreement? Sneakily? On the evening of Michelle's murder? When would Jason have had a reason to give Cassidy adult medicine like pancof and tylenol, or a combination thereof?

Pat has stated that Jason told her he over medicated his daughter. He claimed that he diluted adult medicine with water and gave it to his daughter, but how exactly did he do that? Did he dilute the medicine bottle, did he try to dilute the dropper, or did he mix water 2 thirds to one third medicine as was recommended earlier on this thread?

Police have indeed suggested that there are some serious concerns about Jason medicating his daughter in the search warrants. Police did not promote any theories about why Cassidy left footprints at the murder scene but had clean feet when discovered in the afternoon sleeping on her father side of the bed. What is your theory about the crime, scene, and people at the scene?

I have no idea why you continue to invent facts and then claim the search warrants prove you right. Pat has never stated "that Jason told her he over-medicated his daughter." Police have never said Cassidy was sleeping on her father's side of the bed. These are yet more "facts" you have invented. Apparently you have nothing better to do than sit on this forum and fabricate facts in a case. You seem to enjoy the attention.

I have no idea why a cop would call Tylenol an "adult" medicine. It is sold over the counter and is given to infants. My bottle of Tylenol says to take it with a glass of water so you are greatly inflating the relevancy of the "adult" medicine and are totally misrepresenting the water as "over-medicating."

I have no idea why a cop would call the dropper a "Pancof dropper." Pancof isn't sold with an infant dropper. The Pancof is a prescription medication that isn't exclusive to adults.

Bottom line is that Jason never admitted to his mother or anyone else that he over-medicated Cassidy so why do you keep lying about it?

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:20 PM

Are you pretty sure? I'm not. I think if LE believed it was Michelle's car that was seen by the paper delivery person, they would have compared the vehicle to a Lexus rather than an Explorer.

LOL. You seem to think the purpose of a search warrant is to spoon-feed the public information. Fact is, the vehicle seen was a light-colored SUV and that description fits both the Lexus and the Explorer. If LE believed the vehicle seen was the Explorer rather than the Lexus, they would not have traveled five hours to Brevard and conducted a forensic exam of the Lexus.

Cardinal

03-07-2009, 08:27 PM

LOL. You seem to think the purpose of a search warrant is to spoon-feed the public information. Fact is, the vehicle seen was a light-colored SUV and that description fits both the Lexus and the Explorer. If LE believed the vehicle seen was the Explorer rather than the Lexus, they would not have traveled five hours to Brevard and conducted a forensic exam of the Lexus.

I'm sorry, that doesn't track. The trek to Brevard was in July 07. The SW I'm referencing is Feb 08. Obviously, LE satisfied itself regarding any questions around Michelle's SUV, since the PC for the Feb 08 SW makes it clear that they believe the observed vehicle to be an Explorer and there is no mention of the Lexus in that SW.

JMO and I'm sure you'll disagree. Feel free, and goodnight. :seeya:

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:29 PM

Okay - let's say 3 cars at the house that night: Michelle's (obviously), perhaps Meredith's and the killer's definitely. The car seen by the paper delivery person was not Meredith's - the paper delivery person saw an SUV, described as similar to a Ford Explorer. Which also rules out Michelle's car.

So if the killer's car was outside, to be seen by the paper delivery person, where was Michelle's car and Meredith's car? Only one of them could fit into the garage. Unless you think either Michelle's car or Meredith's car was removed from the scene at the time observed by the paper delivery person? Leaving the killer's car visible? How did the killer get back to retrieve their car?

You're right, only one car could fit into the garage. I assume Meredith's car was parked in the garage and it was Michelle's car seen by the news delivery person. Meredith used Michelle's car to remove Cassidy from the scene. Meredith returned, switched them back and, oops, left her own keys on the hood of the Lexus. Works for me and I bet it works for a jury.

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:35 PM

No way in the world that Meredith would have returned to the house on that ridiculous request of Jason, if she had anything to do with the murders.

Isn't it enough that she picks up Jason's slack in raising Cassidy? Now you want to blame her for the murders too.

Try the KISS method instead of pretzel logic, your head will hurt less. MOO.

That is KISS, you just haven't seen it as quickly as the rest of us did. A killer absolutely needs an excuse to return to the crime scene to provide an explanation for any forensic evidence tied to her.....touching a pillow, for example. That is about as simple as it gets but do keep trying.

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:39 PM

There was most certainly Tylenol adult cold medicine in the picture. The investigators did mention it in getting the warrant for the DNA test. After the results were returned, the only medicine mentioned by name in the most recent search warrant is the Pancof. It may not mean anything but it is in fact the only medicine mentioned in the section of the warrant where the statement from Pat Young is included.

The search warrant also mentions a "Pancof dropper" but Pancof doesn't come with a dropper.

Stellagant

03-07-2009, 08:57 PM

Doorbell

03-07-2009, 09:06 PM

I have no idea why you continue to invent facts and then claim the search warrants prove you right. Pat has never stated "that Jason told her he over-medicated his daughter." Police have never said Cassidy was sleeping on her father's side of the bed. These are yet more "facts" you have invented. Apparently you have nothing better to do than sit on this forum and fabricate facts in a case. You seem to enjoy the attention.

I have no idea why a cop would call Tylenol an "adult" medicine. It is sold over the counter and is given to infants. My bottle of Tylenol says to take it with a glass of water so you are greatly inflating the relevancy of the "adult" medicine and are totally misrepresenting the water as "over-medicating."

I have no idea why a cop would call the dropper a "Pancof dropper." Pancof isn't sold with an infant dropper. The Pancof is a prescription medication that isn't exclusive to adults.

Bottom line is that Jason never admitted to his mother or anyone else that he over-medicated Cassidy so why do you keep lying about it?

Stella. There is regular Tylenol. There is Children's Tylenol. there is Infant Tylenol.

Here is a link to the Tylenol page displaying their children's medications.

http://tylenol.com/page.jhtml?id=tylenol/children/main.inc

Here is a link to their page displaying the adult cold medicines. If you read the fine print, it says, and I quote: "Take only as directed." I have a bottle of the stuff in the house as we post, and nowhere on the bottle, the box, or the little pamphlet inside the box does it say that it can be diluted and fed to children. It says to consult a physician before administering to children under 12.

http://tylenol.com/page.jhtml?id=tylenol/cold/main.inc

Giving a two-year-old an adult medication is "over-medicating," whether diluting occurred or not. The warrant plainly states that Pat told the police that Jason said to her that he gave adult medicine to Cassidy, and claimed that he diluted it.

Here is the Drugs.com page about Pancof:

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/pancof.html

Please note the following segment:

Always ask a doctor before giving a cough or cold medicine to a child. Death can occur from the misuse of cough and cold medicines in very young children.

Here are the active ingredients:

chlorpheniramine, dihydrocodeine, and pseudoephedrine

Dihydrocodeine is a narcotic.

I have not been able to find a children's version.

edited to add link

Doorbell

03-07-2009, 09:09 PM

You're right, only one car could fit into the garage. I assume Meredith's car was parked in the garage and it was Michelle's car seen by the news delivery person. Meredith used Michelle's car to remove Cassidy from the scene. Meredith returned, switched them back and, oops, left her own keys on the hood of the Lexus. Works for me and I bet it works for a jury.

Do you think this argument will be presented by the defense in Jason's trial? Or do you still think an arrest of Meredith is imminent?

Either way, I'll take that bet.

IMO

Barbara2

03-07-2009, 10:18 PM

The search warrant also mentions a "Pancof dropper" but Pancof doesn't come with a dropper.

Do you think that's because the test results found Pancof PD in that dropper and that is why they refer to it as a "Pancof dropper"?

kingbuff

03-07-2009, 11:48 PM

OK, so you and all the other posters know that. So ignore him & don't reply to his bait & maybe he'll go away.

I doubt Jester will go away. This board provides what a person like that needs but can't get on other boards. You ought to pay Jester to sign on and stir things up once in a while. No, that doesn't sound right. Maybe let Jester pay you for the privilege of dangling bait in these waters.

5swab5

03-08-2009, 12:21 AM

I doubt Jester will go away. This board provides what a person like that needs but can't get on other boards. You ought to pay Jester to sign on and stir things up once in a while. No, that doesn't sound right. Maybe let Jester pay you for the privilege of dangling bait in these waters.

How many more posts are you going to dedicate to harassing and insulting Jester today? This is the Michelle Young board. MOO

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 12:59 AM

Stella. There is regular Tylenol. There is Children's Tylenol. there is Infant Tylenol.

Here is a link to the Tylenol page displaying their children's medications.

http://tylenol.com/page.jhtml?id=tylenol/children/main.inc

Here is a link to their page displaying the adult cold medicines. If you read the fine print, it says, and I quote: "Take only as directed." I have a bottle of the stuff in the house as we post, and nowhere on the bottle, the box, or the little pamphlet inside the box does it say that it can be diluted and fed to children. It says to consult a physician before administering to children under 12.

http://tylenol.com/page.jhtml?id=tylenol/cold/main.inc

Giving a two-year-old an adult medication is "over-medicating," whether diluting occurred or not. The warrant plainly states that Pat told the police that Jason said to her that he gave adult medicine to Cassidy, and claimed that he diluted it.

Here is the Drugs.com page about Pancof:

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/pancof.html

Please note the following segment:

Always ask a doctor before giving a cough or cold medicine to a child. Death can occur from the misuse of cough and cold medicines in very young children.

Here are the active ingredients:

chlorpheniramine, dihydrocodeine, and pseudoephedrine

Dihydrocodeine is a narcotic.

I have not been able to find a children's version.

edited to add link

I'm sorry but this entire "poisoning" theory is utterly ridiculous. Tylenol is a brand name for acetaminophen. Tylenol's marketing and packaging now as an over-the-counter liquid in different strengths is possible because it is diluted with water. The dosage is based on the patient's weight. Diluting it with water makes it weaker, not stronger. The infant version is more concentrated than the children's version. Giving the infant version in the child's dosage has killed children because it isn't diluted with water.

As far as the Pancof, Jason was trained about the drug. Diluted with water, the drug was made weaker, not stronger. Show me real evidence that giving diluted prescription cold medicine to Cassidy harmed her in any way.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 01:03 AM

Do you think that's because the test results found Pancof PD in that dropper and that is why they refer to it as a "Pancof dropper"?

Nope. I think they refer it as the "Pancof dropper" because that's what they told Fishers and their attorney and at the time, the July 2007 warrant was still sealed.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 01:07 AM

Do you think this argument will be presented by the defense in Jason's trial? Or do you still think an arrest of Meredith is imminent?

Either way, I'll take that bet.

IMO

I think this argument will be presented at Meredith's trial and yes, I'm hopeful her arrest is imminent. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't arrest her a year ago after they realized her statements were inconsistent.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 01:09 AM

I'm sorry but this entire "poisoning" theory is utterly ridiculous. Tylenol is a brand name for acetaminophen. Tylenol's marketing and packaging now as an over-the-counter liquid in different strengths is possible because it is diluted with water. The dosage is based on the patient's weight. Diluting it with water makes it weaker, not stronger. The infant version is more concentrated than the children's version. Giving the infant version in the child's dosage has killed children because it isn't diluted with water.

As far as the Pancof, Jason was trained about the drug. Diluted with water, the drug was made weaker, not stronger. Show me real evidence that giving diluted prescription cold medicine to Cassidy harmed her in any way.

I have shown you links to information that giving adult cold medicines to children can be harmful.

Of course I have no way of knowing if Cassidy sustained any harm from the incident. In the pictures we have seen, she appears to be a normal, beautiful, intelligent little girl.

The fact remains that it could have caused harm, and Jason knows that, through his experience and training as a pharm rep.

At best, giving a child adult meds is a bad thing to do. At worst, it could kill the child. A normal parent doesn't take the risk.

IMO

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 01:32 AM

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 01:43 AM

I have shown you links to information that giving adult cold medicines to children can be harmful.

Of course I have no way of knowing if Cassidy sustained any harm from the incident. In the pictures we have seen, she appears to be a normal, beautiful, intelligent little girl.

The fact remains that it could have caused harm, and Jason knows that, through his experience and training as a pharm rep.

At best, giving a child adult meds is a bad thing to do. At worst, it could kill the child. A normal parent doesn't take the risk.

IMO

Giving any medicine can be harmful if you aren't careful. It's not as though Jason gave the bottle to the child and said, "drink up."

A normal parent is prudent. Diluting the drug was prudent and the result was that CY wasn't harmed. CY would be at far more risk of harm from a high temperature than she would be from a diluted drug given to bring down the fever. She would be at far more risk of harm from mucous clogging her airways than she would be from a diluted drug given to help her expell the mucous.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 01:45 AM

For those of you who say if JY had answered questions with his attorney present, they would have used that against him and that he did the right thing in not talking at all because he couldn't have helped himself, even if he was innocent, read this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/03/grace.coldcase.dotson/index.html

The ex was clearly a suspect when this happened but sat down with his attorney and LE and answered all questions and has been cleared. I remember this case well and it did seem he was likely the only suspect in that they had broken up when she found out she was pregnant, had been ordered to pay a substantial amt in arrear maintenance plus ongoing support and had never seen the child.

I honestly believe if JY was innocent, he'd have nothing to fear if he'd sat down with his attorney and answered LE's ?s.

Evidently Jason's attorney doesn't share your opinion.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 01:57 AM

For those of you who say if JY had answered questions with his attorney present, they would have used that against him and that he did the right thing in not talking at all because he couldn't have helped himself, even if he was innocent, read this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/03/grace.coldcase.dotson/index.html

The ex was clearly a suspect when this happened but sat down with his attorney and LE and answered all questions and has been cleared. I remember this case well and it did seem he was likely the only suspect in that they had broken up when she found out she was pregnant, had been ordered to pay a substantial amt in arrear maintenance plus ongoing support and had never seen the child.

I honestly believe if JY was innocent, he'd have nothing to fear if he'd sat down with his attorney and answered LE's ?s.

Ok, now that I read the link, LE cleared the husband but that doesn't mean he'll never be arrested or charged as a co-conspirator. It remains an unsolved crime.

Norton said they were able to provide investigators with receipts and cell phone records accounting for Vehle's whereabouts. Police confirmed that Vehle was nowhere near Colorado before, during or after Dotson's disappearance.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 03:03 AM

Evidently Jason's attorney doesn't share your opinion.

Evidently not, but then again, if Jason were a member of my family, I'd question his attorney's opinions. He didn't feel it prudent for JY to defend himself in the WDS - which is quite unheard of if one is innocent, imo. Then, his next attorney happily negotiated to give the vast majority of Jason's day-to-day rights to his daughter away (and, yes, I know Linda, i.y.o. conceded by not forcing him to have the psych. evaluation and answer ?s under oath). If Jason is innocent (which I have no doubt he is not), he sure has been given the worst possible legal advice I've ever heard of.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 03:06 AM

Ok, now that I read the link, LE cleared the husband but that doesn't mean he'll never be arrested or charged as a co-conspirator. It remains an unsolved crime.

Norton said they were able to provide investigators with receipts and cell phone records accounting for Vehle's whereabouts. Police confirmed that Vehle was nowhere near Colorado before, during or after Dotson's disappearance.

I guess there is that possibility - but, in the interim, he is free of any suspicion in his day-to-day life by employers (not that that appears to be a concern of Jasons) and his friends and family. Whether LE even bothers to investigate Noni's case further is debateable too, imo.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 03:10 AM

Evidently not, but then again, if Jason were a member of my family, I'd question his attorney's opinions. He didn't feel it prudent for JY to defend himself in the WDS - which is quite unheard of if one is innocent, imo. Then, his next attorney happily negotiated to give the vast majority of Jason's day-to-day rights to his daughter away (and, yes, I know Linda, i.y.o. conceded by not forcing him to have the psych. evaluation and answer ?s under oath). If Jason is innocent (which I have no doubt he is not), he sure has been given the worst possible legal advice I've ever heard of.

The attorney's obligation is to Jason, not to other members of Jason's family. While you may believe Jason is guilty, that's just your opinion.

Real evidence is required to arrest and convict him and that's LE's job. So far, just following his attorney's advice has served Jason very well. Jason's freedom and his rights to his daughter are still intact.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 03:13 AM

Giving any medicine can be harmful if you aren't careful. It's not as though Jason gave the bottle to the child and said, "drink up."

A normal parent is prudent. Diluting the drug was prudent and the result was that CY wasn't harmed. CY would be at far more risk of harm from a high temperature than she would be from a diluted drug given to bring down the fever. She would be at far more risk of harm from mucous clogging her airways than she would be from a diluted drug given to help her expell the mucous.

More prudent would be to give her a medicine specifically designed for her age group.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 03:13 AM

I guess there is that possibility - but, in the interim, he is free of any suspicion in his day-to-day life by employers (not that that appears to be a concern of Jasons) and his friends and family. Whether LE even bothers to investigate Noni's case further is debateable too, imo.

You don't know if that man is free from any suspicion or not. He was not granted full custody of his own child so I think there is something that keeps him on LE's radar. Noni is still missing and yes, I do believe LE continue to investigate.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 03:15 AM

More prudent would be to give her a medicine specifically designed for her age group.

prescription meds are not designed for any specific age group. Dosages are based on weight, not age.:rolleyes:

Jester

03-08-2009, 03:36 AM

I doubt Jester will go away. This board provides what a person like that needs but can't get on other boards. You ought to pay Jester to sign on and stir things up once in a while. No, that doesn't sound right. Maybe let Jester pay you for the privilege of dangling bait in these waters.

Can you tell us under what circumstances Jason would find it necessary to give adult medication to his 2 year old daughter? Personally, I can't think of any. Could he not afford children's medicine? Did he not know better?

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 04:11 AM

You don't know if that man is free from any suspicion or not. He was not granted full custody of his own child so I think there is something that keeps him on LE's radar. Noni is still missing and yes, I do believe LE continue to investigate.

LE have not named him a POI or the primary suspect so he probably does have the presumption of being free from suspicion from the vast majority of his community, imo. I'm not surprised he was not granted full custody of his child in that he hadn't even seen her until Noni went missing. He now probably has as much visitation as Jason. Says a lot in that he was not married to the mother of his child. Might I also remind you that despite him not wanting the child, he initiated a custody application and fought for his rights to his child, even though limited. Further, he has not been adjudged the SLAYER of his child's mother. I guess those couple of facts might stand him in good stead too.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 04:14 AM

The attorney's obligation is to Jason, not to other members of Jason's family. While you may believe Jason is guilty, that's just your opinion.

Real evidence is required to arrest and convict him and that's LE's job. So far, just following his attorney's advice has served Jason very well. Jason's freedom and his rights to his daughter are still intact.

Yes, it is my opinion which i will hold and defend just as you hold and attempt to defend yours that Meredith is guilty.

You can spin Jason's attorney's obligation any way you want and it will never change the fact that if he is innocent, he was done a great disservice in having to live with being named the slayer of his wife and losing day-to-day custody of his daughter. Those 2 events, whether you like it or not, affect his family.

5swab5

03-08-2009, 04:55 AM

I think this argument will be presented at Meredith's trial and yes, I'm hopeful her arrest is imminent. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't arrest her a year ago after they realized her statements were inconsistent.

You are going to be waiting a while to see Meredith on trial, an eternity. MOO

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 04:57 AM

More prudent would be to give her a medicine specifically designed for her age group.

Absolutely. I wonder if it is all so simple, why people even both with inventing and manufacturing meds for children. It would be so much easier and quicker to only have one strength medicine to give to any sector of the population.

5swab5

03-08-2009, 05:18 AM

Yes, it is my opinion which i will hold and defend just as you hold and attempt to defend yours that Meredith is guilty.

You can spin Jason's attorney's obligation any way you want and it will never change the fact that if he is innocent, he was done a great disservice in having to live with being named the slayer of his wife and losing day-to-day custody of his daughter. Those 2 events, whether you like it or not, affect his family.

I agree. There is no way that an innocent man would stand by his attorney's advise and allow himself to be declared his wife and child's slayer OR lose PRIMARY custody of his only child.

Following his lawyer's advise has him unemployed, living in virtual exile, a social pariah, unable to collect Michelle's Life Insurance, officially titled a slayer and demoted to a part-time dad.

Sometime in the next week or so a judgment will be entered into for monetary damages in the WDS, we are no longer talking "possible" monies. I look for Jason's wages to be garnished for perpetuity (if he ever manages to get another job), in addition to losing practically anything and everything that he has right now.

IF Jason were innocent, he would have kicked his lawyer to the curb a long time ago and likely filed a complaint with the Bar Association. He would have probably won too. IMO

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 05:31 AM

LE have not named him a POI or the primary suspect so he probably does have the presumption of being free from suspicion from the vast majority of his community, imo. I'm not surprised he was not granted full custody of his child in that he hadn't even seen her until Noni went missing. He now probably has as much visitation as Jason. Says a lot in that he was not married to the mother of his child. Might I also remind you that despite him not wanting the child, he initiated a custody application and fought for his rights to his child, even though limited. Further, he has not been adjudged the SLAYER of his child's mother. I guess those couple of facts might stand him in good stead too.

Rabbi Neulander was never named a suspect. He's not so free these days.

fyi: Custody determinations have absolutely nothing to do with whether the couple was married. Because he is the biological parent, he did have parental rights to his child and he still lost full custody. There is obviously more to that case than you are willing to concede.

Jason hasn't lost full custody, he voluntarily agreed to share it. Huge legal difference that you refuse to grasp.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 05:37 AM

Absolutely. I wonder if it is all so simple, why people even both with inventing and manufacturing meds for children. It would be so much easier and quicker to only have one strength medicine to give to any sector of the population.

Neither acetaminophen nor Pancof were invented or manufactured for a particular age group.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 05:42 AM

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 05:47 AM

I agree. There is no way that an innocent man would stand by his attorney's advise and allow himself to be declared his wife and child's slayer OR lose PRIMARY custody of his only child.

Following his lawyer's advise has him unemployed, living in virtual exile, a social pariah, unable to collect Michelle's Life Insurance, officially titled a slayer and demoted to a part-time dad.

Sometime in the next week or so a judgment will be entered into for monetary damages in the WDS, we are no longer talking "possible" monies. I look for Jason's wages to be garnished for perpetuity (if he ever manages to get another job), in addition to losing practically anything and everything that he has right now.

IF Jason were innocent, he would have kicked his lawyer to the curb a long time ago and likely filed a complaint with the Bar Association. He would have probably won too. IMO

I'm curious why you think you are an expert on innocent men or lawyers? On what grounds would Jason win a complaint filed against his attorney? And why would Jason want to file a complaint against an attorney who has served him so well?

Jason isn't in exile and hasn't lost his parental rights. First, you claim Jason is unemployed and then you claim his wages will be "garnished for perpetuity." You need to make up your mind. LOL

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 07:00 AM

Rabbi Neulander was never named a suspect. He's not so free these days.

fyi: Custody determinations have absolutely nothing to do with whether the couple was married. Because he is the biological parent, he did have parental rights to his child and he still lost full custody. There is obviously more to that case than you are willing to concede.

Jason hasn't lost full custody, he voluntarily agreed to share it. Huge legal difference that you refuse to grasp.

The fact that Neulander was never named a suspect is immaterial to the point I was making. My point was that Noni's ex, unlike JY, has not been named a suspect and talked to LE, which in all likelihood has afforded him the presumption of being free from suspicion with the vast majority of his community.

I'm well aware that the biological parent has rights irrespective of whether the parents were married to each other or not. Again, my poing was that even though he was not married to Noni and had never had an interest in his child, he still fought for custody.

I doubt it's me who refuses to grasp anything here. Legally, Jason does not have full time custody of Cassidy even now because he is legally obliged to hand her over to Meredith for certain periods of time until August when, no matter how much you wish it wont happen, Meredith will have day-to-day custody of Cassidy barring approx. 4 days a month and some holidays. No matter which way you slice or dice it, Jason lost (albeit through concession) basic fundamental day-to-day custody of his daughter. I've never alluded to his parental rights as i know they are still (for now in any event) in tact.

BTW, your attempts to make me appear to have no understanding of the legal process only make you look pathetic and immature, imo.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 07:03 AM

Neither acetaminophen nor Pancof were invented or manufactured for a particular age group.

Nor did I ever refer to any specific drugs. I posited that if it was acceptable to give anyone and everyone the same drugs in various forms of dulution, there is no need to invent, manufacture and sell meds. specifically for children.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 07:08 AM

Jason has done a great disservice to whom? If I had a choice between silence or being convicted for a crime I didn't commit, I'd pick silence. That's a no-brainer.

Jason hasn't lost "day-to-day custody" of his daughter. His parental rights are intact, he retains full custody. Ya really think Meredith Fisher is going to have primary physical custody of Cassidy come August? LOL. It will never happen, imo.

I would imagine most people would have realised I'd left out the word "been" between has and done. If I had the choice you outlined above, I'd take my chances to prove my innocence provided, of course, I was innocent. however, if I was guilty - not so much.

Yes, I really think Meredith will have primary physical custody of Cassidy come August and I believe she'll ultimately have both legal and physical custody of her.

Forgive me if I don't like the odds of you being right on this one. Your betting average w.r.t. this case is absolutely abysmal imo..

5swab5

03-08-2009, 10:21 AM

I'm curious why you think you are an expert on innocent men or lawyers? On what grounds would Jason win a complaint filed against his attorney? And why would Jason want to file a complaint against an attorney who has served him so well?
(snipped)

I beg to differ.

Following his attorney's advice and remaining silent, Jason is now:

unemployed in his chosen field
deemed the official slayer of Michelle and Rylan
unable to collect Michelle's LI policy
seemingly ostracized from his Raleigh community
demoted to a part-time dad
a social pariah
an embarrassment to his hometown and family alike

AND in a few more days, he will be slapped with a monetary judgment in the WDS, which should pretty much wipe out any assets he has or ever hopes to have.

IF the above results are the best that an Attorney could do for an innocent man, he needs to be disbarred. MOO

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stellagant, IF you would read my post instead of blindly jumping on each one, your last paragraph would have been explained to you.

YOURS:
First, you claim Jason is unemployed and then you claim his wages will be "garnished for perpetuity." You need to make up your mind.LOL.

MY ORIGINAL:

Sometime in the next week or so a judgment will be entered into for monetary damages in the WDS, we are no longer talking "possible" monies. I look for Jason's wages to be garnished for perpetuity (if he ever manages to get another job), in addition to losing practically anything and everything that he has right now.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 12:20 PM

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 02:44 PM

snipped
IF Jason were innocent, he would have kicked his lawyer to the curb a long time ago and likely filed a complaint with the Bar Association. He would have probably won too. IMO
What complaint could he have filed with the Bar Association, do tell.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 02:52 PM

I'm curious why you think you are an expert on innocent men or lawyers? On what grounds would Jason win a complaint filed against his attorney? And why would Jason want to file a complaint against an attorney who has served him so well?

snippedIt amazes me to see all the experts on how an innocent person acts post anon in cyberspace, yet not one expert has ever testified to substantiate any of the ruminations.

And now the 'expertise' has expanded into how an atty should counsel their client. :lol:

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 02:56 PM

See, there's that false either/or argument that Kingbuff was talking about the other day.

the choice is not between

"silence or being convicted for a crime I didn't commit,"

The choice is between silence and cooperation. There never was any certainty that Jason would be charged, much less convicted.Cooperating is not remaining silent. Jason was advised to remain silent and therefore LE says he is not cooperating. LE can do that during an investigation. It cannot, however, be used as evidence of guilt.

There is still no certainty that Jason will ever be charged, much less convicted. Last I heard, the case was still unsolved.

awareness

03-08-2009, 03:54 PM

Jason has done a great disservice to whom? If I had a choice between silence or being convicted for a crime I didn't commit, I'd pick silence. That's a no-brainer.

Jason hasn't lost "day-to-day custody" of his daughter. His parental rights are intact, he retains full custody. Ya really think Meredith Fisher is going to have primary physical custody of Cassidy come August? LOL. It will never happen, imo.

#1 first and foremost, his daughter Cassidy. Its MO he killed her mother and unborn brother. By her own father. I cant imagine the psychological scar she will have later in life thanks to Slayer. There's many other people as well, but that's the most important of them all.

No, he does not retain "full custody". Link to show he does? He's currently on his way to "visitation only" with Meredith Fisher having primary physical custody and joint legal custody. Any change to the agreement would have to be altered in-court. I think eventually after Jason gets arrested and goes to jail for this heinous and pre-meditated crime, Meredith will get full legal and physical custody of Cassidy. Its going to happen, imo. :smile:
JMO

5swab5

03-08-2009, 04:13 PM

What complaint could he have filed with the Bar Association, do tell.

Considering the shambles that Jason's life is now in, by following his Attorney's advice to remain silent, losing PRIMARY custody of Cassidy and being declared a slayer, etc., IF Jason were innocent :cough:, he could start with ineffective council.

As it is tho, he made his bed, he has no one to blame but himself. He can just sit around and wait for the next shoe to drop$$$$$$ MOO

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 04:28 PM

Considering the shambles that Jason's life is now in, by following his Attorney's advice to remain silent, losing PRIMARY custody of Cassidy and being declared a slayer, etc., IF Jason were innocent :cough:, he could start with ineffective council.

As it is tho, he made his bed, he has no one to blame but himself. He can just sit around and wait for the next shoe to drop$$$$$$ MOO
Uh, ineffective assistance of counsel can only be claimed during or after a trial. Care to try again?

I didn't know you were Jason's spokesperson, when did he say his life was in shambles? And I wasn't aware of him blaming anyone for the situtation he finds himself in, either.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 05:19 PM

Uh, ineffective assistance of counsel can only be claimed during or after a trial. Care to try again?

I didn't know you were Jason's spokesperson, when did he say his life was in shambles? And I wasn't aware of him blaming anyone for the situtation he finds himself in, either.

He's not saying anything, remember?

But look at the facts. Before Michelle was killed, he had a family, a job, friends, a house. Since Michelle's death, and the advice of his lawyer, he has been declared a SLAYER in civil court, he has left the job he got after ChartOne and he parted company, his house is gone, he lives with his mom, and primary custody of his daughter is being transferred to his SIL. He will not get the life insurance settlement.

IF he were innocent, I'd say that is a lot to lose, wouldn't you? If he were innocent, cooperation with LE would have had him cleared long before this. If he is innocent, there is a vicious murderer out there, and he has no idea who killed his wife.

Granted, he has only himself to blame, as nobody forced him to obey the advice of this lawyer, and there are many other lawyers out there. So, while he may not have a suit, he sure has a reason to change lawyers.

IMO

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 05:39 PM

Jules2

03-08-2009, 05:42 PM

Neither acetaminophen nor Pancof were invented or manufactured for a particular age group.

Read the labels and you will be surprised at what "age group" the medications are intended for.

That's like saying heroin wasn't invented for a particular age group. Drugs given to children have much different effects and dangers than those given to adults.

No matter if you water them down or not.

IMO

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 05:50 PM

Unless of course he IS guilty in which case his lawyer's advice has served him well!

Oh. Right.

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 05:51 PM

Read the labels and you will be surprised at what "age group" the medications are intended for.

That's like saying heroin wasn't invented for a particular age group. Drugs given to children have much different effects and dangers than those given to adults.

No matter if you water them down or not.

IMO

Some of these things I just have to ignore because the only thing I can think is, "Excuses, excuses, excuses". How many of these things to the defenders have to "excuse" away before they begin to realize that it is just not normal? The little pieces add up to one big crime.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 05:56 PM

Read the labels and you will be surprised at what "age group" the medications are intended for.

That's like saying heroin wasn't invented for a particular age group. Drugs given to children have much different effects and dangers than those given to adults.

No matter if you water them down or not.

IMO

There are many medications (including my Tylenol) that give directions according to age. "Children under 12: consult physician," etc.

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 06:06 PM

There are many medications (including my Tylenol) that give directions according to age. "Children under 12: consult physician," etc.

I'm guessing that the directions for PancofPD do not include any directions for giving it to children. PERIOD!

Tia

03-08-2009, 06:06 PM

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 06:13 PM

BiggerRedDog

03-08-2009, 06:25 PM

There are many medications (including my Tylenol) that give directions according to age. "Children under 12: consult physician," etc.MYTH: CHILDREN CAN TAKE ADULT MEDICATIONS IN SMALLER DOSES.
TRUTH: When it comes to medications, children are not small adults. Children may react differently than adults to the same medication. For example, antihistamines cause drowsiness in adults but may cause hyperactivity in children. The proper dosage for children may be lower than for adults; however, in some cases, children require larger doses than adults (such as with medications used to treat seizures). Always ask your child's doctor or pharmacist if you have questions about the correct dose of a medication.
http://www.ashp.org/import/news/pressreleases/pressrelease.aspx?id=287
The majority of drugs given to children have never been tested specifically for them. Physicians are prescribing drugs based on a “best guess” as to the dosage, efficacy and even safety. It’s becoming clearer to federal regulators and physicians alike that children are not “small adults.” With their bodies in different stages of development, they process medication differently; sometimes faster, sometimes slower and sometimes turning it into poison. Their body chemistry has not fully matured and yet adult drugs are being prescribed to children on a regular basis. Dr. Joseph M. Wiley, chief of pediatrics at Sinai Hospital in Baltimore, said, “If you extrapolate from an adult dose to a pediatric dose, you may be right … you may be wrong.”
http://www.chiro.org/pediatrics/ABSTRACTS/Pediatric_Drug_Prescribing.shtml
...researchers say that when children are given smaller doses of drugs which have only been tested on adults they are at greater risk of harmful side effects.
Apparently most drugs given to newborn babies, and 50 per cent of those given to children of all ages, have not been tested to ensure that they are appropriate for them.
Previous studies show that under-18s suffer up to three times more side effects from drugs than adults.
This say the researchers is because the proportions of proteins in the body that control their effectiveness change as humans grow older.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=16042

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 06:49 PM

~snipped~
BTW, your attempts to make me appear to have no understanding of the legal process only make you look pathetic and immature, imo.

Whenever anybody disagrees with you, you resort to name-calling. This is your definition of maturity?

:no:

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 06:54 PM

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 06:55 PM

Whenever anybody disagrees with you, you resort to name-calling. This is your definition of maturity?

:no:

This may well be the greatest example of projection that I've seen in a very long time.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 07:01 PM

It amazes me to see all the experts on how an innocent person acts post anon in cyberspace, yet not one expert has ever testified to substantiate any of the ruminations.

And now the 'expertise' has expanded into how an atty should counsel their client. :lol:

I did get a chuckle out of the suggestion that Jason's attorney is supposed to "work with" the cops.

5swab5

03-08-2009, 07:03 PM

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 07:04 PM

This may well be the greatest example of projection that I've seen in a very long time.

I've no doubt you are also an expert on projection, Barbara2 but I'm not the topic of this forum.

:punch:

Cardinal

03-08-2009, 07:59 PM

It certainly doesn't sound like Pancof PD is recommended for children:

Dihydrocodeine is habit forming. It is possible become physically and/or psychologically dependent on the medication. Do not take more than the prescribed amount of medication or take it for longer than is directed by your doctor.

It would certainly only be administered under the direction of a qualified physician.

It isn't.

http://www.medscape.com/druginfo/dosage?cid=med&drugid=64285&drugname=Pancof+PD+Oral&monotype=default

"Absolute Contraindication: RISK OF CNS EXCITATION. DO NOT USE AGE <6 YEARS WITHOUT CLINICIAN CONSULT."

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 08:12 PM

To my knowledge LE has never mentioned that CY could have been given pancof. It was Tylenol that was mentioned in the warrant. Pancof dropper not Pancof liquid. I'm guessing Tylenol doesn't come with a dropper so they used a Pancof dropper. JY sold Pancof so he probably had lots of the droppers.

You might need to finish reading the warrant. Pancof PD is the only medicine mentioned in the February 9th warrant. There is a big long listing of all the information regarding Pancof PD and the mention of the dropper being a Pancof dropper. You can read into it whatever you want but I believe the words say it all.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 08:14 PM

He's not saying anything, remember?

But look at the facts. Before Michelle was killed, he had a family, a job, friends, a house. Since Michelle's death, and the advice of his lawyer, he has been declared a SLAYER in civil court, he has left the job he got after ChartOne and he parted company, his house is gone, he lives with his mom, and primary custody of his daughter is being transferred to his SIL. He will not get the life insurance settlement.

IF he were innocent, I'd say that is a lot to lose, wouldn't you? If he were innocent, cooperation with LE would have had him cleared long before this. If he is innocent, there is a vicious murderer out there, and he has no idea who killed his wife.

Granted, he has only himself to blame, as nobody forced him to obey the advice of this lawyer, and there are many other lawyers out there. So, while he may not have a suit, he sure has a reason to change lawyers.

IMOLots of folks have lost their jobs and can't find new ones, we're in a severe economic turn down. There are stories from all over the country about folks moving back in with their parents with their childen in tow. Also stories of parents moving in with their grown children.

He still has a family. I've not seen any indication from the SWs or media reports that he has lost all his friends. He sold the house, remember? And he still has a townhome.

Being declared a slayer prevents him collecting the LI money - which it didn't appear he had even attempted to do, so that's kind of a moot point. It also affects probate and the distribution of Michelle's assets and her share of marital property.

And yes, he came to an agreement with Meredith regarding what was in the best interests of his child. While the argument can be made that he came to that agreement to keep from talking, the same argument can be made that he faced the very real possibility that Meredith could get awared EXCLUSIVE custody, care and control of Cassidy.

And no, Jason isn't talking but that doesn't give anyone free reign to declare on his behalf that his life is in shambles.

Cardinal

03-08-2009, 08:15 PM

Cardinal the bottle of childrens Tylenol says under 6 ask a doctor. Did you see in the warrants where LE thought CY had been given Pancof? I sure can't find it.

Why would LE devote 3 pages of a SW to Pancof PD and check with Jason's former employer about it unless they thought the drug had been given to Cassidy?

Besides, according to Pat Young, Jason said he gave the adult cold medicines (plural) to Cassidy.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 08:20 PM

Good Enough. How about theft or breach of contract? There ought to be some remedy, because if Jason gave Smith more than a plugged nickel for what he has gotten out of his representation, it is highway robbery, at the very least.:biggrin: IMONo, no case for theft or breach of contract. I suppose if Jason shares your deep concern for how he is being represented he will find other counsel. I'm not entirely sure why you don't think Jason was counseled as to all possible outcomes of any given action or non action. The atty you are accusing of ethical violations doesn't have a bad rep and is an atty for one of the most prestigious law firms in NC.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 08:26 PM

Why would LE devote 3 pages of a SW to Pancof PD and check with Jason's former employer about it unless they thought the drug had been given to Cassidy?

Besides, according to Pat Young, Jason said he gave the adult cold medicines (plural) to Cassidy.
And according to previous SWs, Meredith found Cassidy walking around the home when she arrived.

Point being, it's not a direct quote.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 08:33 PM

To my knowledge LE has never mentioned that CY could have been given pancof. It was Tylenol that was mentioned in the warrant. Pancof dropper not Pancof liquid. I'm guessing Tylenol doesn't come with a dropper so they used a Pancof dropper. JY sold Pancof so he probably had lots of the droppers.

You're correct. LE never has said they believe Jason gave CY the Pancof that night. Unless LE gave the child a blood test on Nov. 3, there really is no way for LE to prove the child was given any drug at all.

Cardinal

03-08-2009, 08:33 PM

And according to previous SWs, Meredith found Cassidy walking around the home when she arrived.

Point being, it's not a direct quote.

I didn't say it was a direct quote, AE. I said "according to Pat Young". ETA: And Meredith finding Cassidy "walking around the home" isn't a direct quote either, as I've pointed out before. You can't have it both ways.

As for Cassidy's activity/alertness, from what I've been reading, CNS excitation may account for that.

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 08:39 PM

Yes they mentioned Pancof and a Pancof dropper but not once was it said the dropper contained Pancof. Now in this warrant for CY's DNA they did say they thought she may have been given Tylenol.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf

Right. That was before the DNA test and before the results were known for the dropper. After the results of the DNA test, they only mentioned the Pancof PD. No mention at all of the Tylenol in that warrant.

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 08:40 PM

Yes they mentioned Pancof and a Pancof dropper but not once was it said the dropper contained Pancof. Now in this warrant for CY's DNA they did say they thought she may have been given Tylenol.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf

You're right, yet again. And LE also said on a warrant they believe the reason CY wasn't bloody was because CY was removed from the scene. No mention of her being drugged in that theory.

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 08:40 PM

Whenever anybody disagrees with you, you resort to name-calling. This is your definition of maturity?

:no:

Absolutely not. You obviously bring out the worst in me with your continual attempts at putting me down as not being able to grasp the legal implications of any situation.

I value differing opinions especially when they can be discussed without attempting to make someone else look stupid.

CLICK

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 08:45 PM

Absolutely not. You obviously bring out the worst in me with your continual attempts at putting me down as not being able to grasp the legal implications of any situation.

I value differing opinions especially when they can be discussed without attempting to make someone else look stupid.

CLICK

Posters are responsible for their own posts. I don't "make" any poster "look stupid."

Instead of blaming me for your behavior, I suggest you place me on ignore.

Cardinal

03-08-2009, 08:46 PM

I think what people are trying to say in a delicate way is they believe what Mrs. McIntyre says but in light of MF's different stories they don't believe her.

LOL Nothing "delicate" about it, confused. You and others have made it clear that you only believe the things that put Meredith in a bad light, while dismissing anything and everything that puts Jason in a bad light.

That's fine - your choice. Just thought while we were delicately clarifying matters I'd cover the rest of it. :D

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 08:50 PM

Now Cardinal I'm not the one that keeps repeating what Mrs. McIntyre says.

Does that mean that you do not believe that Jason admitted to his mother that he gave his child adult medicine? Do you think she made it up or do you think LE is lying?

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 08:52 PM

LOL Nothing "delicate" about it, confused. You and others have made it clear that you only believe the things that put Meredith in a bad light, while dismissing anything and everything that puts Jason in a bad light.

That's fine - your choice. Just thought while we were delicately clarifying matters I'd cover the rest of it. :D

The difference is that the things that put Meredith in a bad light are her own words and inconsistent statements to LE. The things that put Jason in a bad light such as his relationship with Michelle M. or his giving his daughter adult cold medicine can't seem to be tied to Michelle's murder, even though LE and some diehard posters have repeatedly tried to do it for over two years.

Cardinal

03-08-2009, 08:55 PM

Back to the Pancof PD, I was reminded of the reason I can't take medications that contain benadryl. They're very effective in putting me to sleep initially, but after several hours, I wake up with my pulse racing and can't go back to sleep. I "drowse", neither asleep nor awake.

I wonder if Pancof PD works the same way for some people. Such as Cassidy?

Goodnight. :seeya:

Stellagant

03-08-2009, 09:01 PM

What do you mean no way she would return to the house? If she had the child she had to return to the house. Do you think she was going to keep the child and pretend she had her when someone killed MY?

excellent point, confused.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 09:06 PM

I didn't say it was a direct quote, AE. I said "according to Pat Young". ETA: And Meredith finding Cassidy "walking around the home" isn't a direct quote either, as I've pointed out before. You can't have it both ways.

As for Cassidy's activity/alertness, from what I've been reading, CNS excitation may account for that.I know you didn't. That was my point, Pat is not quoted directly just like Meredith was not quoted directly.

It doesn't explain how any 'excitation' prevented her from getting bloody in her activity/alertness.

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 09:45 PM

Can you tell us under what circumstances Jason would find it necessary to give adult medication to his 2 year old daughter? Personally, I can't think of any. Could he not afford children's medicine? Did he not know better?

You know this medicine topic is not going anywhere. Too much we don't know and the cops don't know or won't reveal.

Who gave the child medicine? Which medicine? When?

Whose fingerprints on the bottle and dropper (other than the cops who handled it)? Any stranger prints on the bottles? Meredith's prints?

The cops said Michelle's DNA is not on the dropper. Why didn't they include/exclude Jason? How about Meredith?

When and under what circumstance did Jason mention to his mom about diluting medicine? And the list goes on.....

Couldn't reach Jason this weekend to ask how he and Michelle cared for Cassie when she was sick. Maybe I'll write him a letter. I do know this was a man who has had extensive training in medicines and their use. I'm not qualified to second-guess Michelle and him. I'm amazed that others on the board do feel qualified to second-guess a man whose background includes supplying medicines to doctors.

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 09:48 PM

Leanne Weich

03-08-2009, 09:53 PM

You know this medicine topic is not going anywhere. Too much we don't know and the cops don't know or won't reveal.

snipped to address the following:
I do know this was a man who has had extensive training in medicines and their use. I'm not qualified to second-guess Michelle and him. I'm amazed that others on the board do feel qualified to second-guess a man whose background includes supplying medicines to doctors.

My uncle is a doctor who diagnosed my heart problem and explained I needed a triple by-pass - incredibly knowledgeable about cardiac problems but I wouldn't let him operate on my heart - same thing with Jason and meds. They have the theoretical knowledge but not the practical knowledge, imo.

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 10:09 PM

I'm sure you think that you're doing Jason a big favor, but if you re-read your post, you can't help but see the irony in how you just keep digging him a deeper grave. MOOC.

What? You think I am trying to do Jason a favor? I'm probably the only one on the board who is willing/eager to get at the truth and let chips fall where they will. Or is it "where they may"? I'm not good at cliches like "a deeper grave". But I am objective. I certainly don't want to bury the truth, not even in a shallow grave.

Barbara2

03-08-2009, 10:25 PM

What? You think I am trying to do Jason a favor? I'm probably the only one on the board who is willing/eager to get at the truth and let chips fall where they will. Or is it "where they may"? I'm not good at cliches like "a deeper grave". But I am objective. I certainly don't want to bury the truth, not even in a shallow grave.

That's good to know. Your acknowledgment that Jason is well aware of the effects that the medication he was representing would have on a small child is certainly telling. I'm not sure anyone else involved (or wrongfully implicated) in this case would be so knowledgeable of the side effects of Pancof PD.

Jester

03-08-2009, 10:40 PM

Huh? I'm going off Jester's 'logic'

Regarding the comment of poison, Jason has admitted to giving his healthy 2 year old child adult medications. That is the same as poisoning a child.

Jason's 'admission' was to giving his daughter watered down Tylenol. That is not poisoning.

I understand that you require further explanation of the concept that giving adult medication to a child is equivalent to poisoning.

Acetaminophen: Watch dosage for children
By Mayo Clinic Staff
June 28, 2007
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acetaminophen/HO00002

Acetaminophen Poisoning: an Evidence-Based Consensus
Guideline for Out-of-Hospital Management
Clinical Toxicology, 44:1–18, 2006
Copyright © Taylor & Francis LLC
ISSN: 0731-3810 print / 1097-9875 online
DOI: 10.1080/15563650500394571
http://www.aapcc.org/FinalizedPMGdlns/APAP%20-%20final%20guideline%209.9.05.pdf

In particular, the second article addresses inappropriate or adult dosages of acetaminophen, also known as tylenol, in children, and the specific word to described this practice is poison.

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 10:41 PM

That's good to know. Your acknowledgment that Jason is well aware of the effects that the medication he was representing would have on a small child is certainly telling. I'm not sure anyone else involved (or wrongfully implicated) in this case would be so knowledgeable of the side effects of Pancof PD.

You need my acknowledgment of the obvious? That's strange. You haven't read the SWs? What's your point?

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 10:46 PM

I understand that you require further explanation of the concept that giving adult medication to a child is equivalent to poisoning.

Acetaminophen: Watch dosage for children
By Mayo Clinic Staff
June 28, 2007
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acetaminophen/HO00002

Acetaminophen Poisoning: an Evidence-Based Consensus
Guideline for Out-of-Hospital Management
Clinical Toxicology, 44:1–18, 2006
Copyright © Taylor & Francis LLC
ISSN: 0731-3810 print / 1097-9875 online
DOI: 10.1080/15563650500394571
http://www.aapcc.org/FinalizedPMGdlns/APAP%20-%20final%20guideline%209.9.05.pdf

In particular, the second article addresses inappropriate or adult dosages of acetaminophen, also known as tylenol, in children, and the specific word to described this practice is poison.

You are another one who thinks this man had insufficient training in the use of the medicines you was selling? Do you know when the Tylenol was given, who gave it, how often, how diluted, for what purpose? Again, I think we don't know enough to discuss this subject intelligently. But go ahead--give it a shot. Say something intelligent.

achristie

03-08-2009, 10:51 PM

I think what people are trying to say in a delicate way is they believe what Mrs. McIntyre says but in light of MF's different stories they don't believe her.

Just for clarification and continuity, is JY's mother Pat Young or Pat McIntyre? Of course, only if you know.

Jester

03-08-2009, 10:52 PM

You know this medicine topic is not going anywhere. Too much we don't know and the cops don't know or won't reveal.

Who gave the child medicine? Which medicine? When?

Whose fingerprints on the bottle and dropper (other than the cops who handled it)? Any stranger prints on the bottles? Meredith's prints?

The cops said Michelle's DNA is not on the dropper. Why didn't they include/exclude Jason? How about Meredith?

When and under what circumstance did Jason mention to his mom about diluting medicine? And the list goes on.....

Couldn't reach Jason this weekend to ask how he and Michelle cared for Cassie when she was sick. Maybe I'll write him a letter. I do know this was a man who has had extensive training in medicines and their use. I'm not qualified to second-guess Michelle and him. I'm amazed that others on the board do feel qualified to second-guess a man whose background includes supplying medicines to doctors.

"Jason was a man whose background includes supplying medicines to doctors." Let's explore this. He is not a chemist, so he has no background in preparing medicine. He is not a pharmacist, so he knows nothing about mixing medicine. He is not a doctor, so he knows nothing about prescribing medicine. He has an educational background in textiles, which is about as far away from medicine as fashion. He has had several jobs as a traveling salesman; where he drives to hospitals and sells things like software.

His background in selling or supplying medicine to doctors in no way qualifies him to make decisions about diluting adult medication for two year old children. Yes, I am qualified to second guess a man with no medical background who concocts potions for his child.

As for who gave adult medicine to the two year old child, that is not a mystery. Jason told his mother that me gave his daughter adult medications. He claimed that he diluted it with water. Did he use distilled water, or tap water. Should he know the difference?

Any clarification you can provide about Jason's practices when treating his daughter with adult medication would be greatly appreciated.

Jester

03-08-2009, 10:57 PM

You are another one who thinks this man had insufficient training in the use of the medicines you was selling? Do you know when the Tylenol was given, who gave it, how often, how diluted, for what purpose? Again, I think we don't know enough to discuss this subject intelligently. But go ahead--give it a shot. Say something intelligent.

I consider the red portion to be rather inappropriate. Please don't make this personal.

I absolutely believe that Jason, trained in textiles, knows absolutely nothing about mixing and prescribing medicine. Do you really think Jason should prescribe or mix concoctions with medicine for children, any children, based on the fact that he studied textiles and supplied products to hospitals? I hope not.

cognac

03-08-2009, 10:57 PM

I understand that you require further explanation of the concept that giving adult medication to a child is equivalent to poisoning.

Acetaminophen: Watch dosage for children
By Mayo Clinic Staff
June 28, 2007
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acetaminophen/HO00002

Acetaminophen Poisoning: an Evidence-Based Consensus
Guideline for Out-of-Hospital Management
Clinical Toxicology, 44:1–18, 2006
Copyright © Taylor & Francis LLC
ISSN: 0731-3810 print / 1097-9875 online
DOI: 10.1080/15563650500394571
http://www.aapcc.org/FinalizedPMGdlns/APAP%20-%20final%20guideline%209.9.05.pdf

In particular, the second article addresses inappropriate or adult dosages of acetaminophen, also known as tylenol, in children, and the specific word to described this practice is poison.

Here's another link from Carolinas Poison Centre - to be noted:

NEVER give adult strength acetaminophen to a child under the age of 12. This can cause an overdose. Key wording being 'never".

http://www.ncpoisoncenter.org/consumers/Acet_Guide.cfm##

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 10:57 PM

You are another one who thinks this man had insufficient training in the use of the medicines you was selling? Do you know when the Tylenol was given, who gave it, how often, how diluted, for what purpose? Again, I think we don't know enough to discuss this subject intelligently. But go ahead--give it a shot. Say something intelligent.

The link has been posted several times to the warrant where it says that Pat told the officer that Jason told her that he gave adult meds to Cassidy, and that he claimed to have diluted them.

For some reason, he felt the need to share that with his mother. Why do you think that is?

Jester

03-08-2009, 10:59 PM

What? You think I am trying to do Jason a favor? I'm probably the only one on the board who is willing/eager to get at the truth and let chips fall where they will. Or is it "where they may"? I'm not good at cliches like "a deeper grave". But I am objective. I certainly don't want to bury the truth, not even in a shallow grave.

Do you really think a guy that supplied products to hospitals is qualified to mix medicine for children, or do you want the chips to fall in Jason's favor in this debate?

Jester

03-08-2009, 11:04 PM

Here's another link from Carolinas Poison Centre - to be noted:

NEVER give adult strength acetaminophen to a child under the age of 12. This can cause an overdose. Key wording being 'never".

http://www.ncpoisoncenter.org/consumers/Acet_Guide.cfm##

Thanks. Warnings about adult strength acetaminophen from the poison center should clarify, for anyone having difficulties understanding, that the word poison is the correct term to use to describe the practice of giving any kind of adult medication, diluted or otherwise, to children.

I'm also very interesting in knowing how Jason diluted the medicine. Was there a spoon in the area that he used to mix the medicine? Did he give her a glass of water to chase the medicine? How did he dilute the medication to any level that he considered safe for children?

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 11:08 PM

I consider the red portion to be rather inappropriate. Please don't make this personal.

I absolutely believe that Jason, trained in textiles, knows absolutely nothing about mixing and prescribing medicine. Do you really think Jason should prescribe or mix concoctions with medicine for children, any children, based on the fact that he studied textiles and supplied products to hospitals? I hope not.

Not personal....I am pointing out we do not know enough about the medicines to form a sound opinion. If you can answer the questions I posed about the medicines, go for it.

According to the boss of the medical company Jason worked for before switching to medical computer sales, Jason was given extensive training and education in the medicines he represented. Is this true? No idea.

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 11:11 PM

Thanks. Warnings about adult strength acetaminophen from the poison center should clarify, for anyone having difficulties understanding, that the word poison is the correct term to use to describe the practice of giving any kind of adult medication, diluted or otherwise, to children.

I'm also very interesting in knowing how Jason diluted the medicine. Was there a spoon in the area that he used to mix the medicine? Did he give her a glass of water to chase the medicine? How did he dilute the medication to any level that he considered safe for children?

You see? You have questions about the medicines also. Without answers, why would you form a negative opinion about the man and then claim he poisoned his child?

Jester

03-08-2009, 11:12 PM

Not personal....I am pointing out we do not know enough about the medicines to form a sound opinion. If you can answer the questions I posed about the medicines, go for it.

According to the boss of the medical company Jason worked for before switching to medical computer sales, Jason was given extensive training and education in the medicines he represented. Is this true? No idea.

It's important for a salesman to understand what he is selling, so he most likely had a general understanding of what medications are used for what applications. It certainly doesn't qualify him to mix or dilute medications, or to experiment with his concoctions on his two year old daughter. He is not a doctor and does not have any qualifications that entitle him to give adult medication to his daughter, regardless of what he does to the medication. Poison centers across the country call it poisoning when a child has ingested adult medication.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 11:14 PM

I understand that you require further explanation of the concept that giving adult medication to a child is equivalent to poisoning.

Acetaminophen: Watch dosage for children
By Mayo Clinic Staff
June 28, 2007
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acetaminophen/HO00002

Acetaminophen Poisoning: an Evidence-Based Consensus
Guideline for Out-of-Hospital Management
Clinical Toxicology, 44:1–18, 2006
Copyright © Taylor & Francis LLC
ISSN: 0731-3810 print / 1097-9875 online
DOI: 10.1080/15563650500394571
http://www.aapcc.org/FinalizedPMGdlns/APAP%20-%20final%20guideline%209.9.05.pdf

In particular, the second article addresses inappropriate or adult dosages of acetaminophen, also known as tylenol, in children, and the specific word to described this practice is poison.

Its' only poisoning under specific circumstances, of which none apply here. Cassidy was not poisoned by her dad and no amt of your spinning and baiting on the subject will ever change that fact.

Now to do as CW suggested and ignore you.

:seeya:

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 11:16 PM

Jester

03-08-2009, 11:18 PM

You see? You have questions about the medicines also. Without answers, why would you form a negative opinion about the man and then claim he poisoned his child?

I have a negative opinion about the practice of giving adult medications to young children. The man that gave adult medications to his daughter has no qualifications to modify the medication such that he can make a determination about what modification is safe for a two year old child.

Does that leave me with a negative opinion about the man? It suggests to me that the man can be foolish, or that he has an ego too big for reality, maybe it suggests that he has little regard for the health of his child. For the most part, it leaves me with a negative opinion about the man and serious concerns about having children in his care.

Off topic, but would you let him medicate you with his concoctions?

kingbuff

03-08-2009, 11:19 PM

It's important for a salesman to understand what he is selling, so he most likely had a general understanding of what medications are used for what applications. It certainly doesn't qualify him to mix or dilute medications, or to experiment with his concoctions on his two year old daughter. He is not a doctor and does not have any qualifications that entitle him to give adult medication to his daughter, regardless of what he does to the medication. Poison centers across the country call it poisoning when a child has ingested adult medication.

When and how did he do this mixing and diluting of these concoctions you seem to be aware of? How often? Why? And answer the questions I posed earlier. And what's your point? Where are you doing with the hasty, uninformed posts? Do you have a conclusion?

cognac

03-08-2009, 11:23 PM

Keyword being 'overdose'.

I disagree. Keyword (capitalized) NEVER give adult strength acetaminophen to a child under the age of 12.

Jester

03-08-2009, 11:25 PM

When and how did he do this mixing and diluting of these concoctions you seem to be aware of? How often? Why? And answer the questions I posed earlier. And what's your point? Where are you doing with the hasty, uninformed posts? Do you have a conclusion?

Those are the very questions I have been asking. When, how often? Could they not afford children's medication? Did he not know better? My posts are neither hasty nor uninformed. Jason's actions were uninformed.

Michelle was a conscientious mother, and would have ensured that Cassidy had proper medical care, including correct medication intended specifically for children. Why was Jason improvising, and when did he do this? A conscientious mother would never permit anyone, not even a child's father, to concoct/mix medications for her child. That raises the question of when Jason did this and why?

The conclusion that is staring us in the face is that Jason medicated his two year daughter without Michelle's knowledge. It is also staring us in the face that this most likely happened the night Michelle was murdered, as I seriously doubt Michelle would have left medication lying around where her 2 year old daughter could access it.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 11:26 PM

cognac

03-08-2009, 11:27 PM

Its' only poisoning under specific circumstances, of which none apply here. Cassidy was not poisoned by her dad and no amt of your spinning and baiting on the subject will ever change that fact.

Now to do as CW suggested and ignore you.

:seeya:

I don't think Jester is "spinning and baiting". It appears you can't accept that acetaminophen to a child under 12 is considered a poison.

Jester

03-08-2009, 11:33 PM

I don't think Jester is "spinning and baiting". It appears you can't accept that acetaminophen to a child under 12 is considered a poison.

Thanks. It's in Jason's best interests to argue that it is completely normal to provide adult medication to 2 year old children, and we have an excellent example, in comments surrounding this debate, of those who would move heaven and earth (if possible) to make Jason's actions appear to be completely normal.

It's one thing to argue that Jason has the right to remain silent to explain his lack of cooperation, but to argue that it is completely normal to give adult medication to young children is beyond bizarre.

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 11:33 PM

I don't think Jester is "spinning and baiting". It appears you can't accept that acetaminophen to a child under 12 is considered a poison.Don't care if you disagree with my assessment or not.

Appears you can't accept the fact that giving a child a diluted adult med is not considered 'poisoning the child'.

:seeya: to you too.

achristie

03-08-2009, 11:34 PM

Its' only poisoning under specific circumstances, of which none apply here. Cassidy was not poisoned by her dad and no amt of your spinning and baiting on the subject will ever change that fact.

Now to do as CW suggested and ignore you.

:seeya:

Suit yourself. I like Jester's posts. They are direct, informed, and concise. No parsing, no semantics, no game playing. Just common sense. I, for one, will continue to pay close attention. Jester is a breath of fresh air.

MOO Aggie

Tia

03-08-2009, 11:38 PM

The point is, Jason MAY have given Cassidy Pancof the night of the murder to make her sleep as an explanation as to why Cassidy didn't have blood on her feet and was remarkably clean when found by Meredith.

This theory is bolstered by the fact that Cassidy's DNA was on the 'Pancof dropper'. My question regarding that is, why would Pancof have a dropper if it's an adult only medication? Also, how can the DA prove her DNA came to be on that dropper the night Michelle was murdered?

If you are using a liquid form, use a medication-measuring device or spoon to carefully measure the prescribed dose

Do not give this medication to a child younger than 4 years unless directed to do so by a doctor.

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-64229-Pancof%20Oral.aspx?drugid=64229&drugname=Pancof+Oral

alterEgo©

03-08-2009, 11:53 PM

If you are using a liquid form, use a medication-measuring device or spoon to carefully measure the prescribed dose

Do not give this medication to a child younger than 4 years unless directed to do so by a doctor.

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-64229-Pancof%20Oral.aspx?drugid=64229&drugname=Pancof+Oral
Why would a med not intended for a child under 4 come with a dropper? :confused:

Tia

03-08-2009, 11:55 PM

Why would a med not intended for a child under 4 come with a dropper? :confused:

Some people can't take pills and prefer the liquid.

Doorbell

03-08-2009, 11:56 PM

Why would a med not intended for a child under 4 come with a dropper? :confused:

To measure it, perhaps?

alterEgo©

03-09-2009, 12:08 AM

Some people can't take pills and prefer the liquid.
So they have that little measuring cup or spoon, not a dropper.

alterEgo©

03-09-2009, 12:08 AM

To measure it, perhaps?It's dosage is in drops?

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:22 AM

So they have that little measuring cup or spoon, not a dropper.

I can't find any images where it shows the pancof with a dropper, just a cup. Did they call it a Pancof Dropper in the SW or was it a regular dropper like you use for a child when you give them liquid medicines?

kingbuff

03-09-2009, 12:29 AM

I have watched you rant for 2 days and just ignored you but there is a question I would like to ask you. You keep saying what a conscientious mother MY was when did you meet her and what kind of relationship did you have with her? Were you a guest in her and Jason's home? Did you see CY's bedroom before the murder and can attest to those medicines not being there during her lifetime? I just wondered where you got your facts from if you could enlighten us maybe we would pay more attention to you. This is a message board and so far you are the only person I have seen on here that seems to have been close to MY. You want us to believe you were close enough to know what she did inher ever day life. I'm not asking for personal information just a simple yes or no would be sufficent to my questions. TIA

Well, you got there first, Confused. I think the meds were kept on a high shelf in Cassie's room where conscientious Michelle and Jason had access. But I've seen other posters who live in Texas and on the west coast who claim to know intimate details of the Youngs' lives. When pressed, they admit they've never met the couple.

Kat4Eagles

03-09-2009, 12:34 AM

It's dosage is in drops?

None of this makes much sense , does it?

It is clear that L E had to work around around the fact of the condition that CY was found in and to try and find an explanation for it.

One theory was that she was removed from the home, the other is that she was drugged.

Unless CY was tested for drugging on the day or day after the murder, those results will never be known.....

If Jason ever gave CY full strength adult medication, none of us would condone it for a second, but clearly she was not poisoned..........but, to keep saying that she was, anyway?? :no:

There was no 911 call made to a poison control center or any other emergency facility to have the contents of CY's stomach treated or tested for poison.

I cannot believe the Board spent the weekend and 14 pages arguing this topic, especially even after CW weighed in on the matter.

Unless CY was tested immediately, it simply does not matter.

There is simply no proof, other than to throw around the accusation...that anyone was poisoned.

Ever.

Kat

kingbuff

03-09-2009, 12:44 AM

Those are the very questions I have been asking. When, how often? Could they not afford children's medication? Did he not know better? My posts are neither hasty nor uninformed. Jason's actions were uninformed.

Michelle was a conscientious mother, and would have ensured that Cassidy had proper medical care, including correct medication intended specifically for children. Why was Jason improvising, and when did he do this? A conscientious mother would never permit anyone, not even a child's father, to concoct/mix medications for her child. That raises the question of when Jason did this and why?

The conclusion that is staring us in the face is that Jason medicated his two year daughter without Michelle's knowledge. It is also staring us in the face that this most likely happened the night Michelle was murdered, as I seriously doubt Michelle would have left medication lying around where her 2 year old daughter could access it.

I think Michelle, under Jason's guidance, gave the child diluted adult meds. I think she only did it a few times. She had used up all the children meds and they decided diluted would work temporarily. No one has said if she did it the night she was murdered, but perhaps her TV friend would know. Perhaps the friend, or possibly Meredith, will tell us eventually where Michelle left the meds lying around. Perhaps the child's bedside table, or in a secure, undisclosed location?

I realize this conclusion is not staring us in the face, as the cliche goes, but it makes as much sense as the other wild guesses on the board.

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:45 AM

The point is, Jason MAY have given Cassidy Pancof the night of the murder to make her sleep as an explanation as to why Cassidy didn't have blood on her feet and was remarkably clean when found by Meredith.

This theory is bolstered by the fact that Cassidy's DNA was on the 'Pancof dropper'. My question regarding that is, why would Pancof have a dropper if it's an adult only medication? Also, how can the DA prove her DNA came to be on that dropper the night Michelle was murdered?

I tend to think that your theory is exactly what happened. He needed her to sleep as long as she could.

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:49 AM

I think Michelle, under Jason's guidance, gave the child diluted adult meds. I think she only did it a few times. She had used up all the children meds and they decided diluted would work temporarily. No one has said if she did it the night she was murdered, but perhaps her TV friend would know. Perhaps the friend, or possibly Meredith, will tell us eventually where Michelle left the meds lying around. Perhaps the child's bedside table, or in a secure, undisclosed location?

I realize this conclusion is not staring us in the face, as the cliche goes, but it makes as much sense as the other wild guesses on the board.

So, if Michelle did it, under Jason's guidance as you say, why did Jason tell Pat HE gave her diluted meds?

Tia

03-09-2009, 01:01 AM

I for one will never buy the fact this little girl just got out of bed from a drugged sleep.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

You nor I know how long she was awake before Meredith arrived.

Tia

03-09-2009, 01:04 AM

I'm more interested in why it took MF 5 minutes to tell that her ice cold stiff sister was dead? When dispatch asked why do you think shes dead she said I honestly don't know. How old was MF?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

I'm not.

I can't say I know what I would do if my BIL sent me to my sister's home, I found her dead, and my neice had been left there alone.

Stellagant

03-09-2009, 01:04 AM

None of this makes much sense , does it?

It is clear that L E had to work around around the fact of the condition that CY was found in and to try and find an explanation for it.

One theory was that she was removed from the home, the other is that she was drugged.

Unless CY was tested for drugging on the day or day after the murder, those results will never be known.....

If Jason ever gave CY full strength adult medication, none of us would condone it for a second, but clearly she was not poisoned..........but, to keep saying that she was, anyway?? :no:

There was no 911 call made to a poison control center or any other emergency facility to have the contents of CY's stomach treated or tested for poison.

I cannot believe the Board spent the weekend and 14 pages arguing this topic, especially even after CW weighed in on the matter.

Unless CY was tested immediately, it simply does not matter.

There is simply no proof, other than to throw around the accusation...that anyone was poisoned.

Ever.

Kat

The only theory LE presented was that CY was removed from the scene.

LE sure wants someone to know that they tested that dropper for DNA and found Cassidy's, so it doesn't sound as though it was wiped clean. I wonder who else's prints or DNA they found on it?

Stellagant

03-09-2009, 01:07 AM

I'm more interested in why it took MF 5 minutes to tell that her ice cold stiff sister was dead? When dispatch asked why do you think shes dead she said I honestly don't know. How old was MF?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

Good question. MF went from asking for an ambulance to acceptance Michelle was dead within a split second.

kingbuff

03-09-2009, 01:29 AM

Good question. MF went from asking for an ambulance to acceptance Michelle was dead within a split second.

In that situation, I think I would not ask for help....I would demand it, loudly and immediately. Meredith was much too polite to suit me.

kingbuff

03-09-2009, 01:35 AM

Good question. MF went from asking for an ambulance to acceptance Michelle was dead within a split second.

Maybe some people accept death more quickly than others.

I think too that I would do everything I could to cooperate with the dispatcher. If he asked me if I saw what happened, I would not ignore him, especially if he asked me twice. I think I would also make a strong effort to turn the body if he asked me to do that. But maybe you had to have been there to understand.

Stellagant

03-09-2009, 01:48 AM

Maybe some people accept death more quickly than others.

I think too that I would do everything I could to cooperate with the dispatcher. If he asked me if I saw what happened, I would not ignore him, especially if he asked me twice. I think I would also make a strong effort to turn the body if he asked me to do that. But maybe you had to have been there to understand.

I think such quick acceptance of death when she supposedly just arrived is a huge red flag. Evasive answers to the dispatcher's questions is a huge red flag. There are a multitude of red flags in that 911 call.

catdoc

03-09-2009, 02:43 AM

I'm more interested in why it took MF 5 minutes to tell that her ice cold stiff sister was dead? When dispatch asked why do you think shes dead she said I honestly don't know. How old was MF?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

Can someone tell me how to play this audio? I get the news website with a little box with a small red cross in it. If I click on the cross, nothing happens. I've run across these before and I'm sure there's something I need to know.

5swab5

03-09-2009, 09:45 AM

Maybe some people accept death more quickly than others.

I think too that I would do everything I could to cooperate with the dispatcher. If he asked me if I saw what happened, I would not ignore him, especially if he asked me twice. I think I would also make a strong effort to turn the body if he asked me to do that. But maybe you had to have been there to understand.

Meredith didn't try to cooperate? That's a hoot. Michelle was in a difficult position, she was cold, twisted and stiff. Meredith answered at least 50 questions for the 911 dispatcher. She even went to the house for Jason on that lame errand about the computer printout. She did everything she was asked to do.

Jason slayer Young does NOTHING and answers NOTHING. He is the poster boy for being uncooperative, yet he gets a pass.:shrug: MOO

5swab5

03-09-2009, 09:59 AM

"Jason was a man whose background includes supplying medicines to doctors." Let's explore this. He is not a chemist, so he has no background in preparing medicine. He is not a pharmacist, so he knows nothing about mixing medicine. He is not a doctor, so he knows nothing about prescribing medicine. He has an educational background in textiles, which is about as far away from medicine as fashion. He has had several jobs as a traveling salesman; where he drives to hospitals and sells things like software.

His background in selling or supplying medicine to doctors in no way qualifies him to make decisions about diluting adult medication for two year old children. Yes, I am qualified to second guess a man with no medical background who concocts potions for his child.

As for who gave adult medicine to the two year old child, that is not a mystery. Jason told his mother that me gave his daughter adult medications. He claimed that he diluted it with water. Did he use distilled water, or tap water. Should he know the difference?

Any clarification you can provide about Jason's practices when treating his daughter with adult medication would be greatly appreciated.

Spot On!

Jason also worked for Black & Decker I believe it was...that doesn't make him a carpenter.

Jason also sold athletic shoes at one point, does that make him a marathoner?

I can't believe some people are willing to overlook everything in their defense of Jason. I originally thought they were at least interested in Cassidy's welfare, but even that is being proven not to be the case.

Course I admit, it's hard to care for a child that you don't even know, when it is so obvious by the father's actions that he doesn't care for her like he should. MOO

5swab5

03-09-2009, 10:05 AM

The link has been posted several times to the warrant where it says that Pat told the officer that Jason told her that he gave adult meds to Cassidy, and that he claimed to have diluted them.

For some reason, he felt the need to share that with his mother. Why do you think that is?

Better yet, why didn't Pat say that Michelle and Jason diluted the cold meds?

Why didn't Jason tell his mother that he AND Michelle diluted the meds?

Could it be because Jason told his mother the truth? No wonder his attorney doesn't want him to talk, he isn't very "fast on his feet". I am glad they asked her that question tho, now they are stuck with the answer. MOO

Kat4Eagles

03-09-2009, 11:41 AM

I for one will never buy the fact this little girl just got out of bed from a drugged sleep.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

Hi Confused.:)

Either will I , and unless she was tested , it doesn't matter.

How come Jason didn't just try to "poison" MIchelle at some point, too?

Wow, another week.

Kat

Kat4Eagles

03-09-2009, 11:45 AM

Kat4Eagles

03-09-2009, 11:47 AM

Why would a med not intended for a child under 4 come with a dropper? :confused:

Hi Alter......:)

You are good!!
Makes no sense, does it?

Kat

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:05 PM

Spot On!

Jason also worked for Black & Decker I believe it was...that doesn't make him a carpenter.

Jason also sold athletic shoes at one point, does that make him a marathoner?

I can't believe some people are willing to overlook everything in their defense of Jason. I originally thought they were at least interested in Cassidy's welfare, but even that is being proven not to be the case.

Course I admit, it's hard to care for a child that you don't even know, when it is so obvious by the father's actions that he doesn't care for her like he should. MOO

Good Morning Swabby!

Something that I would really really like to understand is why, if Meredith had ANYTHING to do with Michelle's murder as some here claim, and Jason is as innocent as some here claim, WHY is Jason sitting back and doing NOTHING? Why did he not fight for anything? Why did he just let his daughter go without a fight?

5swab5

03-09-2009, 12:12 PM

The only theory LE presented was that CY was removed from the scene.

LE sure wants someone to know that they tested that dropper for DNA and found Cassidy's, so it doesn't sound as though it was wiped clean. I wonder who else's prints or DNA they found on it?

Not only was it not "wiped clean", it wasn't rinsed out. Something that the primary care giver would not neglect to do. It is much easier to rinse a dropper out after using it, that to fight the dried up crusty stuff before you can use the dropper again. Something that all moms know. IMO

Stellagant

03-09-2009, 12:13 PM

Hi Stella.:)

I don't know, but once again, this isn't even new "news".

Kat

Hi, Kat!

This was posted over on the Haleigh thread by Bratlings. Hope she doesn't mind that I brought it over here. Good links and real food for thought about FBI analysis of 911 calls:

Originally Posted by Bratlings
"WHO WAS THE CALL ABOUT?

Topic of the Call

When contacting 911, innocent individuals remained focused on the victim. For example, one caller urgently stated, “This guy’s hurt real bad. Tell them to hurry!”

Why would individuals call the emergency line and concentrate on themselves, reporting a problem without asking the dispatcher for assistance for the person who needs it? The following dialogue occurred when a father called 911 concerning his son:

Dispatcher: 911. What is your emergency?

Guilty caller: I have an unconscious child who is breathing very shallowly.

In this case, the father took personal possession of a problem (“I have”) and referred to his problem (his dying son) as “an unconscious child.” When the paramedics arrived at the residence, the child already had died. The father had assaulted his son, causing cerebral hemorrhaging. Twelve percent of the 911 callers in the study took personal possession of the problem. All were guilty of the homicide. "

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...leb.htm#page22

Misty's first words on the 911 call....

"Misty Croslin: “Hi…umm…I just woke up…and our backdoor was wide open and I think…and I can’t find our daughter”"

http://cfnews13.com/News/Sidebar/200...pt_part_1.html

"Forty-four percent of the 911 homicide callers included extraneous information in their call. Of those, 96 percent were guilty of the offense, and only 4 percent were innocent. Extraneous information was the strongest indicator of guilt in the study."

5swab5

03-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Why would a med not intended for a child under 4 come with a dropper? :confused:

The dropper may not have "come with" the Pancof-PD, it may have been left over from Jason's inventory when he worked for the Company. No telling what the origination of that dropper was. MOO

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:32 PM

So it's your theory she was laying under the sheet on the bed awake? Are 2 year olds this good? I figured as soon as they woke up they'd be out of bed.

Please re-read my post, I didn't say it was my theory, I said we don't know how long she was awake.

Maybe she was afraid and hid in the bed? None of us were there so none of us know. Thats all I was saying.

5swab5

03-09-2009, 12:33 PM

What do you mean they are stuck with that answer? LE let MF change her answers why not let Mrs. McIntyre change hers?

What's with the Mrs. McIntyre? Never have I seen her refereed to as anything except Pat Young, until you started doing it yesterday. Just curious. MOO

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:34 PM

The dropper may not have "come with" the Pancof-PD, it may have been left over from Jason's inventory when he worked for the Company. No telling what the origination of that dropper was. MOO

Did the SW say it was a Pancof dropper?

Tia

03-09-2009, 12:37 PM

Hi, Kat!

This was posted over on the Haleigh thread by Bratlings. Hope she doesn't mind that I brought it over here. Good links and real food for thought about FBI analysis of 911 calls:

Originally Posted by Bratlings
"WHO WAS THE CALL ABOUT?

Topic of the Call

When contacting 911, innocent individuals remained focused on the victim. For example, one caller urgently stated, “This guy’s hurt real bad. Tell them to hurry!”

Why would individuals call the emergency line and concentrate on themselves, reporting a problem without asking the dispatcher for assistance for the person who needs it? The following dialogue occurred when a father called 911 concerning his son:

Dispatcher: 911. What is your emergency?

Guilty caller: I have an unconscious child who is breathing very shallowly.

In this case, the father took personal possession of a problem (“I have”) and referred to his problem (his dying son) as “an unconscious child.” When the paramedics arrived at the residence, the child already had died. The father had assaulted his son, causing cerebral hemorrhaging. Twelve percent of the 911 callers in the study took personal possession of the problem. All were guilty of the homicide. "

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...leb.htm#page22

Misty's first words on the 911 call....

"Misty Croslin: “Hi…umm…I just woke up…and our backdoor was wide open and I think…and I can’t find our daughter”"

http://cfnews13.com/News/Sidebar/200...pt_part_1.html

"Forty-four percent of the 911 homicide callers included extraneous information in their call. Of those, 96 percent were guilty of the offense, and only 4 percent were innocent. Extraneous information was the strongest indicator of guilt in the study."

Again, the question you all seem to dodge when you are trying to insinuate Meredith is her sister's murderer, WHY isn't Jason doing anything? Why did he allow PRIMARY physical custody to Meredith?

IMO, he did not fight because HE is guilty.