Feb-18 - #1

[LostinSpace]

Maybe they brought Ron in because he lives there and Crystal does not. Doesn't she live over an hour away?

[kitty1182]

Does anyone know if CNN or another station is going live?

Don't know, but I will go back and forth to CNN and Fox at 4pm...

[jewel6]

A poster (page 5) at http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/breaking/news-article.aspx?storyid=131632&catid=17 stated her mother called Channel 4 and was told the police ask them to with hold this information until the news conference at 4.

I saw that. so the news stations already know! yikes.

[kitty1182]

Maybe they brought Ron in because he lives there and Crystal does not. Doesn't she live over an hour away?

Yes, but she has been with everyone else the last few days I think..

[playnice]

Ron, Crystal and grandma. Which grandma, why not both? Teresa is Ron's mother right?

Mom has been collasping at vigils so I think she is fragile. They would want someone with her to give her bad news.
Dad has threatened to kill the perp so I can see why LE would want to be with him.
OMG. My heart hurts for both of them. I dont think this is good news at all.

[Tia]

Haleighs mom, dad and grandma is at police station...


Oh no. Where are you getting your info? TV?
I wish we had a link.

[SavannahStar]

Sounds to me like they found her body.......:sad:

[jewel6]

The news stations were asked by LE not to disclose what has happened until 4:00 after the presser. per first coast news blog.

[crymeariver2006]

Ron, Crystal and grandma. Which grandma, why not both? Teresa is Ron's mother right?

Crystal's mom Marie Griffs was asked to bring Crystal in.

Teresa Neves, Ron's Mom already works at the Sheriff's Department. She's probably already there (IMO)

[JD1974]

A poster (page 5) at http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/breaking/news-article.aspx?storyid=131632&catid=17 stated her mother called Channel 4 and was told the police ask them to with hold this information until the news conference at 4.

Channel 4 is being asked to withhold the information...I really hope this is a good sign..that she has been found and they want to reunite them before the media storms!

If the poster is correct that is....

[KittenCakes7]

The news stations were asked by LE not to disclose what has happened until 4:00 after the presser. per first coast news blog.

Ooof. That doesn't sound good.

[kitty1182]

Just throwing out scenarios while we wait, but what if they were bringing Crystal in to let her know the bad news, then bringing Ron in to book him? Maybe Misty told her story and both her a Ron will be under arrest? Just reaching at straws.....own opinions, idea's, theories, thoughts, speculations, etc.

Or, maybe they bought them all in while they go and arrest Misty...

[kitty1182]

Oh no. Where are you getting your info? TV?
I wish we had a link.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/breaking/news-article.aspx?storyid=131632&catid=17

[playnice]

Just throwing out scenarios while we wait, but what if they were bringing Crystal in to let her know the bad news, then bringing Ron in to book him? Maybe Misty told her story and both her a Ron will be under arrest? Just reaching at straws.....own opinions, idea's, theories, thoughts, speculations, etc.

I really dont think Ron had anything to do with this and I think this is about to become the worst day of his life.

[happy2bme]

Sounds to me like they found her body.......:sad:

I sure hope not SS. I want a happy ending. :sad:

[lune3]

The news stations were asked by LE not to disclose what has happened until 4:00 after the presser. per first coast news blog.

This implies that it's very bad news.

[Armchairdet]

Or, maybe they bought them all in while they go and arrest Misty...

That could be. The media is being so hushed I just don't know what to think.

IMO

[IlliniFan]

Been reading other boards, but someone suggested that if they had recovered little Haleigh's body, there would surely have been a flury of police cars, etc??

[JD1974]

Or, maybe they bought them all in while they go and arrest Misty...


OH now there is an idea!!! They are kind of putting them in protective custody while they deal with Misty, but the mom is an hr away?

[KittenCakes7]

I sure hope not SS. I want a happy ending. :sad:

After reading Casey Anthony's diary today, yes, h2bm, I need a happy ending today.

[happy2bme]

This implies that it's very bad news.


IIRC that is how it went when they found Brooke Bennetts body.

[juliekan]

cnn.com will be showing the presser....I can see a podium....no one there yet

[lune3]

Channel 4 is being asked to withhold the information...I really hope this is a good sign..that she has been found and they want to reunite them before the media storms!

If the poster is correct that is....

That would be magnificent.......but I'd think if they found her alive, she'd be in a hospital for assessment rather than at the police station.

[jakee]

Channel 4 is being asked to withhold the information...I really hope this is a good sign..that she has been found and they want to reunite them before the media storms!

If the poster is correct that is....


I hope that is the news.

[kitty1182]

If Misty isn't already in custody...

She might have been re interviewed again and they decided to keep her..This is all MOO..

I'm praying it's good news, but I don't have a feeling it is.

[happy2bme]

After reading Casey Anthony's diary today, yes, h2bm, I need a happy ending today.


Yes we do. We have already lost the little boy from here/Arkansas.

[Zeus]

Channel 4 is being asked to withhold the information...I really hope this is a good sign..that she has been found and they want to reunite them before the media storms!

If the poster is correct that is....

That's what I was hoping but I doubt finding her and reuniting her with everyone would be a huge secret. So, you know what that means.........:sad:

[NikkiG77058]

Sounds to me like they found her body.......:sad:


OMG, Savannah, reading those words just hurt my heart. BUT, I'm almost grateful for the closure, if this does turn out to be the case.

For Haleigh :rose:

[emdragon]

Been reading other boards, but someone suggested that if they had recovered little Haleigh's body, there would surely have been a flury of police cars, etc??

Unless it was found out of state or in another county where no media was keeping tabs.

[CC I See]

She also said she was in the mobile home for the first time Monday with investigators and found the pink Hannah Montana shirt Haleigh was wearing in the laundry. She said the little girl was wearing the shirt when she went to bed.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-02-16/story/search_for_haleigh_scales_back

So... now we learn the pink Hanna Montana shirt has legs too. At first I attributed her slightly-changing stories to nerves but this..well...really doesn't sit well with me. At all..... I kept saying over and over two days ago wondering what was in that dryer. She's lying and it becomes more apparent with each step LE takes her.

[Tia]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/breaking/news-article.aspx?storyid=131632&catid=17

Thank you.

[breeze53]

After reading Casey Anthony's diary today, yes, h2bm, I need a happy ending today.


anyone ahve the link to the presser thanks

[SavannahStar]

I really dont think Ron had anything to do with this and I think this is about to become the worst day of his life.

That's what I think too.

[JD1974]

cnn.com will be showing the presser....I can see a podium....no one there yet

Can you link it, I can't find that video.

[emdragon]

Been reading other boards, but someone suggested that if they had recovered little Haleigh's body, there would surely have been a flury of police cars, etc??

Unless she was found out of state or in another county where no media was keeping tabs.

[SwineFeld]

CNN Live Feed

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream4

[desmom]

Link to Presser from Banner on home page News 4 http://www.news4jax.com/video/15505198/index.html

[SavannahStar]

cnn.com will be showing the presser....I can see a podium....no one there yet


:ohmy: If CNN is showing it......it's gotta be BIG news. Bad news, I fear.

[3Monkeys]

FWIW, it's immediate family only (except for Ron's mum, that we know of).

Neither Misty nor Crystals fiance have been called in.

[lune3]

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream4

[playnice]

Someone please update about the presser. Im at work on a junky puter and cant watch anything without freezing up.
TIA

[desmom]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/default.aspx

Another link for live presser

[Kathlb]

HLN on television is going to it momentarily too.

[lune3]

Oh god they smiled briefly.

[JD1974]

Is this the post, that sounds like channel 4 is withholding info? It sounds to me like they're withholding the fact that the parents have been brought in, and they are downplaying that as typical for this case.


Cadibratt wrote:
I called channel 4 and they told me that this is not the first time the parents have been brought in for questioning and that it probably wasn't anymore than being questioned again and that they (channel 4) didn't want to put it on their site until after the 4 p.m. news update.
2/18/2009 3:43 PM EST on firstcoastnews.com


That doesn't sound right, why pull them in at the same time when they weren't together when it happened?

[SavannahStar]

They look awful serious.

[Ralar]

Oh god they smiled briefly.

I was just thinking that the guy in the purple tie looks very solemn.

[happy2bme]

Oh noooooo ........ was that little Dominick? :sad: How awful.

yes. He was found in the lake.

[CANDYKISSES]

:rose: I pray they have found her alive and well.

But they also will call all the family together when it is bad news too.

imoo


Ditto here. :wub:

[Armchairdet]

Must not be too bad, so far he is talking about following tips. IMO

[JD1974]

They look awful serious.

Yes, they do....

[SavannahStar]

Nothing. :bored:

[Armchairdet]

No news. So says he.

[KittenCakes7]

Just an update on the rewards being offered...

[JD1974]

Oh a reward! I was starting to freak by how they looked at the beginning....

[SwineFeld]

All this for no new news?

[Ralar]

Nothing. Just new rewards. $16,000

[playnice]

Ive got knots in my stomach.
Was it false reporting about having the parents come in?

[GentleBreeze]

Nothing. :bored:

Sheesh. All of that emotional turmoil for nothing.:sad:

imoo

[Ralar]

The tip regarding Misty not being at home came from the media!

[3Monkeys]

That was interesting...the tip about Misty not being home was originally given to the media who reported it.

[JD1974]

Ok so they checked out the tip about Misty not being home...won't answer but no arrest.

[Regina.Lampert]

First I am hearing about a vehicle being taken in as evidence and processed??? Whose vehicle?

[summer4meplz]

hmmm...well...maybe no news is good news....but....what's to "sit on" until the news conference?

[lune3]

They brought in the family to tell them there is a reward?

Tip about Misty being out came from media?

[desmom]

JMO of presser

$$ has been donated by anonymous contributor from Putnam. Total Reward $16,000 leading to the recovery of Haleigh.

No boats out today.

Why were family questioned this afternoon? LE: Continuing part of our investigation. We will not discuss the results of this afternoon or the polys. As we need to bring the family in, we will.

Tip was called in Misty was not home? LE: We are following up on the tip. We will not reveal the outcome of that tip investigation.

A vehicle had been seized earlier and processed. They will not comment on the vehicle.

No POI has been brought in at this time.

jmo

[Armchairdet]

I'm not buying it. There is a reason they brought the immediate family only in. IMO. We may not find out, or we may find out later, but it doesn't sit right for me. IMO

[Ralar]

Was it false reporting about having the parents come in?

The family is being re-questioned, but "nobody has been 'brought in'" says the white haired guy.

[SwineFeld]

Yeah really. Why have the mom who lives an hour away come in just to say there is an additional reward?

They brought in the family to tell them there is a reward?

Tip about Misty being out came from media?

[lune3]

I wish a reporter would ask exactly why the family was brought in.

[JD1974]

I'm not buying it. There is a reason they brought the immediate family only in. IMO. We may not find out, or we may find out later, but it doesn't sit right for me. IMO

I am just not buying that either....

[playnice]

WTH are they even having these PC for if they arent going to comment on anything? Makes no sense.

[summer4meplz]

Yeah really. Why have the mom who lives an hour away come in just to say there is an additional reward?


I thought Lenny had put up $5000? no?

[crymeariver2006]

First I am hearing about a vehicle being taken in as evidence and processed??? Whose vehicle?

Misty's brother's van? The one with the missing blanket in it?

But, criminey he doesn't even know if they still have the van!

[Ralar]

Why are they doing this to us!!!! They should only hold pressers for important updates not just how much the reward is they can just have the media print that on their websites:rolleyes:

This is happening in Palatka, Florida. This is probably the most excitement they've had in decades. Maybe since Danny Rawlings was revealed to be the Gainesville serial killer. Wasn't Rawlings from Palatka?

[lune3]

Still talking about possibility she may be alive after 9 days.

[CC I See]

First I am hearing about a vehicle being taken in as evidence and processed??? Whose vehicle?.... I am wondering if it was the van belonging to Misty's brother who was at the home earlier. The one that she said the blanket was int.....

[jewel6]

This is happening in Palatka, Florida. This is probably the most excitement they've had in decades. Maybe since Danny Rawlings was revealed to be the Gainesville serial killer. Wasn't Rawlings from Palatka?

I thought he was from louisiana?:scared:

[crymeariver2006]

hmmm...well...maybe no news is good news....but....what's to "sit on" until the news conference?

They probably made that part up, ya think?

[Zeus]

I thought Lenny had put up $5000? no?
Lenny put a time limit on his reward. It's expired.

[lune3]

I'm not buying it. There is a reason they brought the immediate family only in. IMO. We may not find out, or we may find out later, but it doesn't sit right for me. IMO

It's strange. Why bring in Crystal who lives far away, why bring in Ron with a detective when he could just drive there on his own?

Where's Misty I wonder?

[playnice]

This is happening in Palatka, Florida. This is probably the most excitement they've had in decades. Maybe since Danny Rawlings was revealed to be the Gainesville serial killer. Wasn't Rawlings from Palatka?

Do you think they know what they are doing? Especially if they havent handled much large crime cases.

[jewel6]

It's strange. Why bring in Crystal who lives far away, why bring in Ron with a detective when he could just drive there on his own?

Where's Misty I wonder?

didnt they say they had already interviewed misty earlier in the day?

[kitty1182]

It's strange. Why bring in Crystal who lives far away, why bring in Ron with a detective when he could just drive there on his own?

Where's Misty I wonder?

They must be going to be interviewed again..Don't know why the dec. took Ron though..:confused:

[lune3]

When they came to the podium and briefly smiled, I had such hope. Guess they smiled in greeting at a reporter. Then they became solemn and my heart sank. And then good grief it was to tell about the rewards and saying they are still investigating.

[kitty1182]

Thanks and what a relief that we still will have some hope that Haleigh will be found safe and sound. Still, it's all a little shifty as to bringing in Ron, Crystal & Mom. Could it really be as innocent as le is making it out to be? I am officially bamboozled.

Me too..(back to the CA docs now)

[playnice]

Thanks and what a relief that we still will have some hope that Haleigh will be found safe and sound. Still, it's all a little shifty as to bringing in Ron, Crystal & Mom. Could it really be as innocent as le is making it out to be? I am officially bamboozled.

Scratching my head on this one. This was really weird.

[Ralar]

I thought he was from louisiana?:scared:

Yes. Shreveport, LA. He hid out in Ocala after a triple murder in Shreveport.

[WillowInFlight]

I'm not buying it. There is a reason they brought the immediate family only in. IMO. We may not find out, or we may find out later, but it doesn't sit right for me. IMO

They called all 3 of them in just to tell them about the reward:confused:

[CC I See]

It's strange. Why bring in Crystal who lives far away, why bring in Ron with a detective when he could just drive there on his own?

Where's Misty I wonder?... maybe it's time to go another round with these people until one of them breaks and tells what they know. We don't see what goes on when the cameras are off but these people have got to know more than they are telling..... I am surprise they haven't cracked yet. As for the van being seized, that may hold the key to the investigation if forensics show something important. I see the line between families starting to be drawn in the sand.

[Armchairdet]

They called all 3 of them in just to tell them about the reward:confused:

That makes no sense at all to me. I mean, call them and tell them. It isn't like a reward is top secret. That would defeat the purpose of it IMO. I think something is up. I think we will find out in the next couple of hours after there has been enough time to tell the family whatever it is, and decide how to proceed. I don't think they have found Haleigh, but I think maybe they have a suspect or POI IMO

[jewel6]

something will happen i have to be somewhere later. It never fails if im at home nothing happens. When i leave heck breaks loose and then i cant catch up on these boards. jmo

[StickyBeak]

Wow, I was getting prepared for the worst. Makes no sense at all, I wonder if LE or County pays for pressers, if so no wonder money is at issue. JMO

Glad no news is good news, just going on too long.

Bring Haleigh Home Now

[Armchairdet]

... maybe it's time to go another round with these people until one of them breaks and tells what they know. We don't see what goes on when the cameras are off but these people have got to know more than they are telling..... I am surprise they haven't cracked yet. As for the van being seized, that may hold the key to the investigation if forensics show something important. I see the line between families starting to be drawn in the sand.

Was it for sure the van was the vehicle seized, or could it have been his car hence the ride in with the detective??

[lune3]

... maybe it's time to go another round with these people until one of them breaks and tells what they know. We don't see what goes on when the cameras are off but these people have got to know more than they are telling..... I am surprise they haven't cracked yet. As for the van being seized, that may hold the key to the investigation if forensics show something important. I see the line between families starting to be drawn in the sand.

If they are interviewing, it's telling that the three of them are being brought in together, and that Misty is/was brought in separately.

[CANDYKISSES]

Scratching my head on this one. This was really weird.


Did the FLEA always use the word RECOVERY????:crying:

[bluwaters]

If they are interviewing, it's telling that the three of them are being brought in together, and that Misty is/was brought in separately.
Has Misty been brought in?
Has a van been seized? :scared:

[crymeariver2006]

Was it for sure the van was the vehicle seized, or could it have been his car hence the ride in with the detective??

Could be, but he didn't even know if they still had the vehicle in their possession.

[CC I See]

Was it for sure the van was the vehicle seized, or could it have been his car hence the ride in with the detective??They are not saying... I assume which does not make this fact that the Van that belonged to Misty's brother that was at the house earlier would be suspect. My theory is that something happened when that visit occurred and there was a clean up after, using that van. Since this is only a theory, nothing is fact at the moment. But why wash the shirt Haleigh was wearing after she said she put her to bed wearing it?

[crymeariver2006]

Did the FLEA always use the word RECOVERY????:crying:

You got me. They need us asking questions!

Does anybody know if Ron and Crystal have given a DNA sample?

[crymeariver2006]

They are not saying... I assume which does not make this fact that the Van that belonged to Misty's brother that was at the house earlier would be suspect. My theory is that something happened when that visit occurred and there was a clean up after, using that van. Since this is only a theory, nothing is fact at the moment. But why wash the shirt Haleigh was wearing after she said she put her to bed wearing it?

Yes, Cleaning and Laundry should be big red flags.

And an "exhausted" 17 year old.

[Erin26GA]

I must have missed something. Had to go pick my daughter up from school. What is this about a van being seized?

[CC I See]

You got me. They need us asking questions! Does anybody know if Ron and Crystal have given a DNA sample?.... Why would they need to? Wouldn't having Haleighs hair and other DNA from her clothes be enough to identify her when needed?

[lune3]

They are not saying... I assume which does not make this fact that the Van that belonged to Misty's brother that was at the house earlier would be suspect. My theory is that something happened when that visit occurred and there was a clean up after, using that van. Since this is only a theory, nothing is fact at the moment. But why wash the shirt Haleigh was wearing after she said she put her to bed wearing it?

Bolding is mine.

That's a good point.
I wonder if the brother has been questioned. Yikes, and didn't Misty say something very early on about a blanket being in that van?

[CC I See]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TCMDHFLKTOQP1NM7O/p17

You may find post #348 of interest in the comments .

moo... what came to me is this might be why Haleigh missied so much school since there was nothing to indicate that she had been ill.

[Ralar]

... what came to me is this might be why Haleigh missied so much school since there was nothing to indicate that she had been ill.

She has Turner's Syndrome, a genetic disease.

[crymeariver2006]

.... Why would they need to? Wouldn't having Haleighs hair and other DNA from her clothes be enough to identify her when needed?

Same reason they asked Casey for one?

[Erin26GA]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TCMDHFLKTOQP1NM7O/p17

You may find post #348 of interest in the comments .

moo

Well, that's interesting. Wonder how true it is.

[lune3]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TCMDHFLKTOQP1NM7O/p17

You may find post #348 of interest in the comments .

moo

Oh my God! If that's true what that poster says, I'm sure LE has to be aware. Wow.

[CC I See]

She has Turner's Syndrome, a genetic disease.Right but other than needing hormone shots she was in good health. I haven't heard anything stating she was too ill for school.

[crymeariver2006]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TCMDHFLKTOQP1NM7O/p17

You may find post #348 of interest in the comments .

moo

*shakes head*

I had read part of that somewhere else, not at topix though.

A major "Ewwwwwww" on the affair with Ron's uncle.

But the neighbors shouldn't hold ANY of that against Haleigh and tell the searchers they didn't know why anybody would want to help "this family". Has nothing to do with the family. Has to do with a missing 5 year old little girl.

[CC I See]

*shakes head*

I had read part of that somewhere else, not at topix though.

A major "Ewwwwwww" on the affair with Ron's uncle.

But the neighbors shouldn't hold ANY of that against Haleigh and tell the searchers they didn't know why anybody would want to help "this family". Has nothing to do with the family. Has to do with a missing 5 year old little girl.You are so right..... it's all about finding Haleigh. People should redouble their effort in spite of this family's drama.

Someone posted on anther thread that Misty and Ron were no longer together..... any word on this?

[lune3]

They are not saying... I assume which does not make this fact that the Van that belonged to Misty's brother that was at the house earlier would be suspect. My theory is that something happened when that visit occurred and there was a clean up after, using that van. Since this is only a theory, nothing is fact at the moment. But why wash the shirt Haleigh was wearing after she said she put her to bed wearing it?

Thinking more about this. There were three other little kids there, I assume Jr, and the two little cousins. Wonder how something could have happened with those kids there. An accident? Why not call 911, panic? Fault? Fear of Ron?
Coming back to that blanket being in the car, at least Misty said the blanket was in it. Wonder if the blanket is missing.

[emdragon]

Right but other than needing hormone shots she was in good health. I haven't heard anything stating she was too ill for school.
Part of Turners is a poor immune system. Grandma talked about Haleigh even being in and out of the hospital.

[kitty1182]

Did the FLEA always use the word RECOVERY????:crying:

I didn't think they had used that word before.....

[Armchairdet]

Does anyone know where Ron and Misty met? I am just wondering because there are a limited amount of places a working father of two would meet a 17 year old high school dropout. I would imagine it would probably be through family and or mutual friends. I am just wondering who a common connection for them may be.

[CC I See]

*shakes head*

I had read part of that somewhere else, not at topix though.

A major "Ewwwwwww" on the affair with Ron's uncle.But the neighbors shouldn't hold ANY of that against Haleigh and tell the searchers they didn't know why anybody would want to help "this family". Has nothing to do with the family. Has to do with a missing 5 year old little girl.Misty maybe so submissive and accommodating that she can not say no to anyone. People have questioned her mental ability and one poster said that she was learning disabled. All speculation .... again.

[jewel6]

How old is rons uncle? Why did texas equisearch pull out? She was still missing jmo

[Peaches]

All it takes is a drill and a couple of drill bits. The bit used to make the larger hole looks like a cookie cutter with a serrated edge. It is very easy to drill the holes, you just need to be careful to make sure you line up the holes properly so the dead bolt fits into the hole in the door jam.

I have installed door knobs, deadbolts, etc. It is not difficult. I'm an attorney (female) not a construction worker. If I can do it, Ronald probably can also do it.


You are correct!

Why do some think that Ron is unable to do a simple chore?

[kitty1182]

This is o/T but the missing boy in Arkansas has been found in the river:rose:

Poor baby:sad:

[JD1974]

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TCMDHFLKTOQP1NM7O/p17

You may find post #348 of interest in the comments .

moo

Even if true that is pretty sick to say no one should help look for this little girl because Misty may have been having an affair and Ron knew about it! :cursing:

[CC I See]

Even if true that is pretty sick to say no one should help look for this little girl because Misty may have been having an affair and Ron knew about it! :cursing:.... yes, intelligent people know the value of supporting the effort to find a lost girl knowing she is not responsible for what her family says and does. Obviously this group was lacking...

[JD1974]

Have you read any of the comments in the Forum of Orlando Sentinel about this case? I really have never seen such outrageous comments on a newspaper's forum section, Sheesh!


No I honestly haven't been and now I am glad, I cannot believe some people can be so heartless, this is a defenseless little girl who has done nothing wrong!

[emdragon]

Don't know if it's been posted yet but before Ron moved to the present address he has living in a 2 bedroom place next door to the owner of both properties. The owner is a retired Minister from Penna.

From the Ocala Star Banner

That isn't accurate. the Minister lived in the home prior to the current owners. That owner is a woman who lived next door and started renting the trailer out after her parents died. Ron had lived next to her I guess since Aug and when he told her he needed a room for each child she rented him the current home- also next door to her. (the link for her interview is on the links thread)

[CC I See]

I also wondered about TES pulling out so soon because just prior Tim was interviewed and he sounded like he was going to be there for awhile.

What really made me wonder even more was when I watched America`s Most Wanted and they just barely showed Haleighs pic mid way through the show. If you blinked you would of missed it. This is highly unusual that they would not of done a whole segment right up front. One segment was just a follow up with a prison interview.......totally non urgent stuff. Missing kids are usually high priority. I cannot confirm it but it was noted on another board prior to the show airing that AMW team was on the ground in Florida. Makes me wonder if they did not pull out just as Tim did.

I think John Walsh and Tim Miller know much more about this case. Both are under contract to not reveal what they know of course, but actions speak louder that words.... they also may be at a loss for words regarding the drama of this family. If they say how they feel... they risk antagonizing a certain lifestyle which would not be considered politically correct.

[Ice Cycle]

Has Misty been brought in?
Has a van been seized? :scared:

Could be they wanted DNA samples from the immediate family.

[lonetraveler]

This is o/T but the missing boy in Arkansas has been found in the river:rose:

---
OMG, I didn't know that. Been out of the house most of the day and had not had time to check on that site. Boy, that really hits you in the stomach.

[crymeariver2006]

Don't know if it's been posted yet but before Ron moved to the present address he has living in a 2 bedroom place next door to the owner of both properties. The owner is a retired Minister from Penna.

From the Ocala Star Banner

Don't the courts as well as DFS require separate bedrooms for male and female children?

[Rick777]

I tried to read the orlando sentinel chat board, but......uhhh...it just seems to be people fighting and nothing to do with Haleigh.

[SwFlorida]

Don't the courts as well as DFS require separate bedrooms for male and female children?
I think they do, but at what age I dont know.IMO

[Rick777]

Ok.....so what do we know about Ron's uncle??

Name?

Does he live in the same area?

Is he currently accounted for?

[crymeariver2006]

Ok.....so what do we know about Ron's uncle??

Name?

Does he live in the same area?

Is he currently accounted for?

Police said today that all family members have been accounted for.

:shrug:

Unless he's really the "cousin" that was "messing with" Misty and stole Ron's gun.....

[emdragon]

Here is the article

http://www.ocala.com/article/20090218/ARTICLES/902181004/0/news

Family members say the child was last seen last week at the home at 202 Green Lane, a double-wide mobile home that Cummings moved to in November, according to the home's owners, Phyllis and Donald Bard. The retired ministers divide their time between Pennsylvania and Florida and live down the street from where Cummings and his two children were staying.

I stand corrected same couple but the first article said nothing about
them being Ministers but I thought the former tenant that was on NG yesterday was the Minister. They couldn't be the same because that guy talked about living in the trailer and that new owners could have fixed the floors.

[playnice]

HHN just told about Ron Crystal & GM being whisked in today for a consultation. No news yet what that was about.

[Rick777]

This is just so bizarre.

The pressers are so....relaxed and uninforming.

A little girl vanishes in a REMOTE area, and nobody knows anything.

I almost get the feeling that LE knows exactly whats going on, but yet there seems no urgency.

I understand they can't give away much because it could hamper things, but what are we on....day 9? 10? At what point do the rules go out the window and the gloves come off??

geeeez

[Rick777]

HHN just told about Ron Crystal & GM being whisked in today for a consultation. No news yet what that was about.

Well you sure could not tell anything was up from the 2 pm presser. Very LETHARGIC!

[emdragon]

REVEREND JESSE SMALLWOOD, PREVIOUSLY LIVED IN THE SAME HOME WHERE HALEIGH DISAPPEARED

OK see this case truly is bizarre- what are the odds both parties in question would be ministers.

[lune3]

I stand corrected same couple but the first article said nothing about
them being Ministers but I thought the former tenant that was on NG yesterday was the Minister. They couldn't be the same because that guy talked about living in the trailer and that new owners could have fixed the floors.

The minister was Smallwood who lived in the trailer 10 years ago. I believe he owned it. Subsequent to that, the present owner's parents lived there having bought the place. There was speculation that it was the parents (or daughter) who put in the handicapped ramp, and possibly refurbished the floors. When the the elderly parents passed away, the daughter owned it and rented it out. At least that's what I remember reading.

[kitty1182]

Even the local media can't figure WTH it was about...

JMO

Wonder if they have went back home yet?

[GossipGirl]

Well, I've been watching this mess unfold and I think that Misty either A. had something to do with it, or B. left and someone else got in there.

I'm leaning towards A, but it makes no sense to me, seeing as how Ron has another child....why would she want to get rid of her?
I don't know.
What's the general consensus here?
GG

[odyssey]

That isn't accurate. the Minister lived in the home prior to the current owners. That owner is a woman who lived next door and started renting the trailer out after her parents died. Ron had lived next to her I guess since Aug and when he told her he needed a room for each child she rented him the current home- also next door to her. (the link for her interview is on the links thread)


Mister Bard, the owner of the two properties that Ron has rented is a minister .. a different minister than the previous renter, but still a retired minister...

[lune3]

Uh oh. Someone here made a sizable bet that those floors had never been refurbished. :scared:

Yes I saw that and they may very well be right. If they haven't, and obviously LE would know that having been in the place, it could appear more unlikely that Misty slept through an intruder's walking about.
But then who knows? As I said earlier somewhere, my brother slept through a 6.5 earthquake.

[Larkin]

This is just so bizarre.

The pressers are so....relaxed and uninforming.

A little girl vanishes in a REMOTE area, and nobody knows anything.

I almost get the feeling that LE knows exactly whats going on, but yet there seems no urgency.

I understand they can't give away much because it could hamper things, but what are we on....day 9? 10? At what point do the rules go out the window and the gloves come off??

geeeez

About LE knowing...and no urgency... Remember the Susan Smith case?

[Themis]

OK see this case truly is bizarre- what are the odds both parties in question would be ministers.
Did I read somewhere that there are 44 active and retired ministers living in Satsuma?

[Hopeintown]

I hope I don't get blasted for this, but I have been following this story, I have observed the fathers interviews on NG and especially the one where he was with Misty on Greta. My feeling is, the father (Ron) may have very well known that his children were being left alone at night. Why do I say this? because in the 911 call he says twice "I was at work". Misty is only 17 years old, Ron has custody and if the authorities found out those kids were being left alone his custody would most definitely be in jeopardy.

Then, in the Greta interview Ron is correcting Misty as to the bed situation when Greta asked a question, even though he was not there that night. Even when Greta asked Misty to indicate with her hands as to how far apart the beds were Ron intervenes....why? why can't Misty answer the questions when SHE was supposedly there and he was at work?

Something is way off here and I'm not discounting anyone.

IMO

[emdragon]

Mister Bard, the owner of the two properties that Ron has rented is a minister .. a different minister than the previous renter, but still a retired minister...

I know I commented on how bizarre that is when I found the information that the Bards were Ministers as well.

lune3- I was the one who commented that the floors could have been fixed when the parents lived there-especially if one was in a wheelchair and the floors were as bad as the other tenant said. Nothing to confirm my idea other than it makes sense to me.

[kitty1182]

I`ll go with A.......and if right I bet she will wish she was not in that home when whatever happened went down.

I think it was a mix of jealousy, the bed wetting situation and Misty being expected to care for young kids day and night that are not even hers..... I think she snapped and it all spun out of control.

Misty could have been jealous of the girl but not the boy..MOO

[Armchairdet]

I`ll go with A.......and if right I bet she will wish she was not in that home when whatever happened went down.

I think it was a mix of jealousy, the bed wetting situation and Misty being expected to care for young kids day and night that are not even hers..... I think she snapped and it all spun out of control.


It could have also been an accident involving the van. Perhaps the driver was backing out to leave and Haleigh was behind the van and was not seen. That would be a reason to have the van in custody, and a reason a blanket was in the van IMO.

[Mimi428]

I think John Walsh and Tim Miller know much more about this case. Both are under contract to not reveal what they know of course, but actions speak louder that words.

<snipped>

I don't understand what is meant by Walsh &/or Miller being "under contract". Under contract with whom? What other entity is in on the contract? What sort of penalties could there possibly BE, should one side not honor the contract?

I'm sure each side has an understanding & agreement on what they will give & what they expect from the other entity, but I can't figure out how a contractual agreement would be between any of them & LE.

JMO

[lune3]

I know I commented on how bizarre that is when I found the information that the Bards were Ministers as well.

lune3- I was the one who commented that the floors could have been fixed when the parents lived there-especially if one was in a wheelchair and the floors were as bad as the other tenant said. Nothing to confirm my idea other than it makes sense to me.

It makes sense to me too emdragon, especially since they owned it and may have lived there for some years. I guess we won't know unless ultimately it's disclosed in LE documents if creaky floors were a factor in the investigation.

[emdragon]

I hope I don't get blasted for this, but I have been following this story, I have observed the fathers interviews on NG and especially the one where he was with Misty on Greta. My feeling is, the father (Ron) may have very well known that his children were being left alone at night. Why do I say this? because in the 911 call he says twice "I was at work". Misty is only 17 years old, Ron has custody and if the authorities found out those kids were being left alone his custody would most definitely be in jeopardy.

Then, in the Greta interview Ron is correcting Misty as to the bed situation when Greta asked a question, even though he was not there that night. Even when Greta asked Misty to indicate with her hands as to how far apart the beds were Ron intervenes....why? why can't Misty answer the questions when SHE was supposedly there and he was at work?

Something is way off here and I'm not discounting anyone.

IMO

I thought it was pretty clear on the 911 tape he kept saying he was at work because the dispatcher kept asking him questions he couldn't have known-because he was at work.

As for correcting Misti- she was saying 4 inches when the distance is 4 feet.

To say Misti is not articulate is an understatement and I believe 90% of the inaccuracies are do to that. The poor girl just can't string 4 words together and have them make sense.

[emdragon]

O/T but Washington state just issued and Amber Alert.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_021809WAB-amber-alert-SW.2bfcab02.html

[lune3]

It could have also been an accident involving the van. Perhaps the driver was backing out to leave and Haleigh was behind the van and was not seen. That would be a reason to have the van in custody, and a reason a blanket was in the van IMO.

Could be but why then not call 911 immediately. That would not necessarily point to fault. If an accident indeed happened I would think it would be something where Misty was really negligent and that could be construed as intentional...hence the hiding of it from authorities. But it would have to be so bad that the brother (Misty's) would have agreed to be complicit.

That the van is seized makes me wonder (if it was indeed seized).

[Kip]

Yes I saw that and they may very well be right. If they haven't, and obviously LE would know that having been in the place, it could appear more unlikely that Misty slept through an intruder's walking about.
But then who knows? As I said earlier somewhere, my brother slept through a 6.5 earthquake.

People sleep through all kinds of things. One night I awoke to what sounded like something falling and glass breaking. I looked over at my husband -- he was sound asleep. I got up, went to a bathroom we were working on and got a wooden towel bar. I went from room to room turning on lights and checking out the rooms, and checked that the outside doors were locked. I didn't find a thing and thought I must have dreamed the noise. My husband didn't stir throughout all this. (The next day I found a vase with some glass flowers had fallen over and one of the flowers broke.)

When my kids were 16, 10, and 7, I had to call 911 for my husband in the night. Our bedrooms were all next to each other, but the kids didn't hear a thing.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Misty slept through an intruder -- especially since she's used to Ron coming in in the middle of the night. If, at the edge of consciousness, she heard footsteps, she might have thought Ron was home.

[breeze53]

It could have also been an accident involving the van. Perhaps the driver was backing out to leave and Haleigh was behind the van and was not seen. That would be a reason to have the van in custody, and a reason a blanket was in the van IMO.


I mentioned this the other day but no one answered me. I think this could very well be what happened.

[cutiepatootie61]

I mentioned this the other day but no one answered me. I think this could very well be what happened.
I have been popping in a couple times a day trying to stay abreast of this case, can someone please explain the "van being seized" thing. I had not known there was a vehicle in question and cannot figure out who the van driver is and what this may have to do with Haileigh missing. Thanks so much for the clarification

[lonetraveler]

I know I commented on how bizarre that is when I found the information that the Bards were Ministers as well.

lune3- I was the one who commented that the floors could have been fixed when the parents lived there-especially if one was in a wheelchair and the floors were as bad as the other tenant said. Nothing to confirm my idea other than it makes sense to me.

---
I've obviously missed the information that the floors were "bad". Does this mean that they were rotten and had to be replaced? I just heard that they squeaked very badly when someone walked on them. That is a lot different that the floor was bad.

[emdragon]

I have been popping in a couple times a day trying to stay abreast of this case, can someone please explain the "van being seized" thing. I had not known there was a vehicle in question and cannot figure out who the van driver is and what this may have to do with Haileigh missing. Thanks so much for the clarification

During the Presser today LE spoke of a vehicle being processed. No Idea what vehicle.

people thought maybe the Van Misti had spoken about that we thing belongs to her brother.

[Armchairdet]

During the Presser today LE spoke of a vehicle being processed. No Idea what vehicle.

people thought maybe the Van Misti had spoken about that we thing belongs to her brother.

I think it was the van. Unless of course it was Ron's car, hence him getting a ride by LE to the meeting (or whatever it was) today.

[emdragon]

---
I've obviously missed the information that the floors were "bad". Does this mean that they were rotten and had to be replaced? I just heard that they squeaked very badly when someone walked on them. That is a lot different that the floor was bad.

Squeaking floors often mean warped floors. I said the floors were bad because in my mind a floor that squeaks isn't GOOD.

[CC I See]

I have been popping in a couple times a day trying to stay abreast of this case, can someone please explain the "van being seized" thing. I had not known there was a vehicle in question and cannot figure out who the van driver is and what this may have to do with Haileigh missing. Thanks so much for the clarification... we are assuming it is the brother's van that was seized but it also could have been the Cummings' vehicle as well..... we just don't know.

[lune3]

I have been popping in a couple times a day trying to stay abreast of this case, can someone please explain the "van being seized" thing. I had not known there was a vehicle in question and cannot figure out who the van driver is and what this may have to do with Haileigh missing. Thanks so much for the clarification

On the afternoon Haleigh disappeared, Misty's brother was over around 5pm with his two little kids. According to Misty, they stayed about a half hour. He has a van.
In the press conference it was mentioned that LE is investigating a vehicle, IIRC. It was not mentioned that it was the brother's van.

Also, early on in an interview, Misty had said a blanket was in the van, (when she looked for an extra blanket to cover Haleigh after finding that H's normal blanket smelled of pee.) Because it was in the van, she covered Haleigh with a sheet that she took off the window (as curtain I guess), and put the smelly one in the wash.

Hope I got that right.

[kitty1182]

On the afternoon Haleigh disappeared, Misty's brother was over around 5pm with his two little kids. According to Misty, they stayed about a half hour. He has a van.
In the press conference it was mentioned that LE is investigating a van, IIRC. It was not mentioned that it was the brother's van.

Also, early on in an interview, Misty had said a blanket was in the van, (when she looked for an extra blanket to cover Haleigh after finding that H's normal blanket smelled of pee.) Because it was in the van, she covered Haleigh with a sheet that she took off the window (as curtain I guess), and put the smelly one in the wash.

Hope I got that right.

I just wonder what Misty's blanket would be doing in his van...Was something on the blanket or wrapped in it?

[emdragon]

I think it was the van. Unless of course it was Ron's car, hence him getting a ride by LE to the meeting (or whatever it was) today.

I'm thinking it had to be a vehicle that was somewhere not around the house and the MEDIA or we would have heard about it already. So I don't think it would be Ron's car. (maybe LE is escorting Ron because he doesn't have a valid license-or they don't want him driving in his mental state.)

[Armchairdet]

I just wonder what Misty's blanket would be doing in his van...Was something on the blanket or wrapped in it?

That is a very important question. IMO

[CC I See]

On the afternoon Haleigh disappeared, Misty's brother was over around 5pm with his two little kids. According to Misty, they stayed about a half hour. He has a van.
In the press conference it was mentioned that LE is investigating a van, IIRC. It was not mentioned that it was the brother's van.

Also, early on in an interview, Misty had said a blanket was in the van, (when she looked for an extra blanket to cover Haleigh after finding that H's normal blanket smelled of pee.) Because it was in the van, she covered Haleigh with a sheet that she took off the window (as curtain I guess), and put the smelly one in the wash.

Hope I got that right.

I don't think any one could get this right.... the stories from these people change every time they tell it.

[Armchairdet]

I'm thinking it had to be a vehicle that was somewhere not around the house and the MEDIA or we would have heard about it already. So I don't think it would be Ron's car. (maybe LE is escorting Ron because he doesn't have a valid license-or they don't want him driving in his mental state.)

I thought about the license thing as well. IMO

[lune3]

I just wonder what Misty's blanket would be doing in his van...Was something on the blanket or wrapped in it?

I sure wonder too. My ears perked up about that blanket a while back.

[Armchairdet]

http://www.wesh.com/news/18743397/detail.html

Is Annette Sykes the grandma? She says she went by the house that night.

[cutiepatootie61]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions upthread. I am curious, did Misty and the Cummings children go somewhere with Misty's brother that evening? Why would a blanket from the Cummings home be in this van? Also, has anyone come forward to witness this visit? Perhaps it was later in the evening? I am wondering how well Ron Jr. communicates and if he has been able to clarify and confirm some of what Misty has told.

[CC I See]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions upthread. I am curious, did Misty and the Cummings children go somewhere with Misty's brother that evening? Why would a blanket from the Cummings home be in this van? Also, has anyone come forward to witness this visit? Perhaps it was later in the evening? I am wondering how well Ron Jr. communicates and if he has been able to clarify and confirm some of what Misty has told.... they probably did since it was around dinner time and there was no mention that Misty cooked dinner for them.

[CC I See]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions upthread. I am curious, did Misty and the Cummings children go somewhere with Misty's brother that evening? Why would a blanket from the Cummings home be in this van? Also, has anyone come forward to witness this visit? Perhaps it was later in the evening? I am wondering how well Ron Jr. communicates and if he has been able to clarify and confirm some of what Misty has told.... good comment. I would think that the child would be so traumatized by recent events to be able to say much.

[IlliniFan]

Grandma says from the above link:


"That’s a crock. I went by the house that night. I know. She was there," Annette Sykes said. "I went by around 7."


Well she should know that means nothing. Misty could have left at any time that evening...

edit to add the link

http://www.wesh.com/news/18743397/detail.html

[lune3]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions upthread. I am curious, did Misty and the Cummings children go somewhere with Misty's brother that evening? Why would a blanket from the Cummings home be in this van? Also, has anyone come forward to witness this visit? Perhaps it was later in the evening? I am wondering how well Ron Jr. communicates and if he has been able to clarify and confirm some of what Misty has told.

Not sure who gave the 5pm half hour timeline, I think it was Misty, and I guess LE corroborated that with the brother (though we haven't heard that). Also IIRC, the AC repairman was around that day, not sure if it was around the same time.

As for the grandma saying someone in the family dropped over, in the evening, to bring clothes,...that info came out later and Misty had not said anything about that earlier.

Blanket in the van. Who knows? It could have perfectly reasonable explanation, but then...maybe not.

[Mimi428]

If LE tells them something off the record they cannot repeat it.

Yes, I'm sure they have an agreement that LE only will relate the specifics of the searches & investigation details & that if they find out inside information that LE does not want out to the public, they won't go against them.

But I can't imagine what the penalty would be to Miller or Walsh if they broke it, other than they would not get LE cooperation for the next case. That alone would be disincentive enough to keep them from talking out of school, I would think.

JMO

[lune3]

Grandma says from the above link:


"That’s a crock. I went by the house that night. I know. She was there," Annette Sykes said. "I went by around 7."


Well she should know that means nothing. Misty could have left at any time that evening...

edit to add the link

http://www.wesh.com/news/18743397/detail.html

Is that for sure a direct quote? Grandma said "I"? There was talk previously that she said someone from the family went by. Confusing.

[kitty1182]

Is that for sure a direct quote? Grandma said "I"? There was talk previously that she said someone from the family went by. Confusing.

Yes, the first time she said a family member took some clothes over..

[mags]

Article says she is paternal grandmother. Wonder why she is now saying she went there that night when prviously she only says others were there?

Could this be Ron's Grandma because his mom was on NG last night. Her name was Teresa Neives.

[lune3]

Could this be Ron's Grandma because his mom was on NG last night. Her name was Teresa Neives.

Yes Teresa is Ron's mom. Could Annette Sykes be Misty's grandma?

In any case, either she's lying to protect Misty, or the reporters have it wrong regarding whether she or others went to the trailer that evening.

added: oh article says paternal grandma, so I guess Ron's grandma........can't keep all the relatives straight.

[IlliniFan]

Is that for sure a direct quote? Grandma said "I"? There was talk previously that she said someone from the family went by. Confusing.

That's a direct quote from the article. Of course, the media might have quoted the wrong person.

[GentleBreeze]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

[kitty1182]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

Could this be the Padgett guy?

[lune3]

Could this be the Padgett guy?

Never got a clear answer or info whether this RSO James Arthur Padgett is indeed related. Wish we knew. That came about when it was reported that a Padgett couple who are relatives were trying to get down to Florida from Tennessee, and someone discovered a JA Padgett on the RSO list.
I know (at least it came from somewhere) that a "cousin" stole a gun fro Ron, and "messed" with Misty. Same person, I don't have a clue.

[n/t]

Article says she is paternal grandmother. Wonder why she is now saying she went there that night when prviously she only says others were there?

Yup. In her own voice on Nancy Grace last night. She said others were there to drop off some clothes. She did not say she was there.

Why do these people keep changing their stories?

[lune3]

Yup. In her own voice on Nancy Grace last night. She said others were there to drop off some clothes. She did not say she was there.

Why do these people keep changing their stories?

Imagine what LE must be going through deciphering all these stories.

[n/t]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

Last night I speculated that it could be a case of revenge. Interesting.

[n/t]

Imagine what LE must be going through deciphering all these stories.

It's getting to be just as bad as the Casey Anthony case.

[kitty1182]

Never got a clear answer or info whether this RSO James Arthur Padgett is indeed related. Wish we knew. That came about when it was reported that a Padgett couple who are relatives were trying to get down to Florida from Tennessee, and someone discovered a JA Padgett on the RSO list.
I know (at least it came from somewhere) that a "cousin" stole a gun fro Ron, and "messed" with Misty. Same person, I don't have a clue.

maybe the patch on his neck was from the fight...

[kitty1182]

Last night I speculated that it could be a case of revenge. Interesting.

Remember the patch on Ron's neck, could have been from the fight..

[emdragon]

Yup. In her own voice on Nancy Grace last night. She said others were there to drop off some clothes. She did not say she was there.

Why do these people keep changing their stories?

If the reporter is correct Ron's mother isn't changing her story- she said she had family drop buy the house that night- the person quoted in that article isn't Ron's mom. If it is his Grandmother she would be the family Teresa was talking about.

[lune3]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

First time I read this I read "one day before" as the day before H went missing, and I though wow, kind of coincidental. Now I see it as "one day" sometime in the past, which fits with the previous story of Ron having his gun stolen at some time.

[playnice]

HHN Paster said Ron was out on horse today searching places for Haleigh.

[GentleBreeze]

Last night I speculated that it could be a case of revenge. Interesting.

Well I don't much believe in coincidences. The timing is uncanny.

However, if it is, surely this person would not harm an innocent 5 year old little girl. Maybe they are hiding Haleigh out because they know how much this is tearing Ron apart.

imoo

[lune3]

If the reporter is correct Ron's mother isn't changing her story- she said she had family drop buy the house that night- the person quoted in that article isn't Ron's mom. If it is his Grandmother she would be the family Teresa was talking about.

Ah yes, you are right. At least we know then who exactly went by the house.
But why didn't Misty mention that since she mentioned the brother's visit earlier in day? IIRC, the interviewer asked her about the sequence of events.

[GentleBreeze]

First time I read this I read "one day before" as the day before H went missing, and I though wow, kind of coincidental. Now I see it as "one day" sometime in the past, which fits with the previous story of Ron having his gun stolen at some time.

Really? I will go back and read it closely.

I know the headlines said. Haleigh's Father Reportedly Had a Fight Day Before She Disappeared.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Lune3, I guess I am missing it.

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

Where does it say that it happened at another time and not the day before?

thanks

[n/t]

Remember the patch on Ron's neck, could have been from the fight..

Yup. That makes sense.

[Kelly3820]

The pics that I saw of Haleigh today what a happy child. Full of fun and happiness. Seems like every moment of the day she had smile on her sweet face.

[lune3]

Really? I will go back and read it closely.

I know the headlines said. Haleigh's Father Reportedly Had a Fight Day Before She Disappeared.

imoo

Yes headline DOES say that.
But article is from today, and that gun being stolen was known before.
Do you think this reporter is just stating this today even though that info was released a while bacK? I think that's what's confusing me.

[GentleBreeze]

maybe the patch on his neck was from the fight...

Wow, Kitty, good theory.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Yes headline DOES say that.
But article is from today, and that gun being stolen was known before.
Do you think this reporter is just stating this today even though that info was released a while back? I think that's what's confusing me.

I don't really know but hasn't this particular news site pretty much kept up with this story as it has unfolded?

imoo

[n/t]

Well I don't much believe in coincidences. The timing is uncanny.

However, if it is, surely this person would not harm an innocent 5 year old little girl. Maybe they are hiding Haleigh out because they know how much this is tearing Ron apart.

imoo

I hope you're right. Time is running out though and if they don't find her soon and whoever has her panics it could be disastrous. That's why they need to start speaking up. No more secrets! For Haleigh's sake. Even if it costs them some time in jail or whatever.....they have to find her!

[GentleBreeze]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement.


I must agree. That is still the number one suspect for me. Some sexual deviant that had watch this house and probably saw Haleigh playing out in the yard.

imoo

[Kelly3820]

Yes and who says you can never have too much family?

I saw today very determined LE. They will find Haleigh.

[Destini]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement.

But, but, but if it's Misty's cousin, he "messed with" her when she was 13 and also another cousin. I suspect this is the the same cousin she told Craig Rivera about, who apparently is some type of sex offender.

[SwFlorida]

HHN Paster said Ron was out on horse today searching places for Haleigh.

reminds me of the Anthony's....NOT:angry:

[n/t]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement.


Why would they fight about a gun?

[lune3]

I don't really know but hasn't this particular news site pretty much kept up with this story as it has unfolded?

imoo

Yes I think so, but I do remember clearly that there was discussion about Ron having had a gun stolen by a cousin at some point. That discussion was days ago.
Maybe this is another incident?

If you put comma after one day...like ..one day, before H disappeared..you read it differently. I though maybe some of these writers aren't clear...noticed it with other articles.

If this is a new incident regarding the gun, then it could be really significant...too coincidental.

[GentleBreeze]

I hope you're right. Time is running out though and if they don't find her soon and whoever has her panics it could be disastrous. That's why they need to start speaking up. No more secrets! For Haleigh's sake. Even if it costs them some time in jail or whatever.....they have to find her!

The thing is even if she was taken, to get back at Ron and we really dont know if that is what happened, but eachday puts Haleigh at a higher risk of being harmed.

Whomever has her, even if she is alive, is not going to bring her back now. There is too much heat and this case has gone national. No way in heck they will just bring her back safe and sound, unfortunately. The longer they have her the more of a liability poor little Haleigh becomes to this POS.:sad:


IMO

[CC I See]

Okay I believe the article got it wrong because Ron`s mom is named Theresa. Maybe it is Misty`s mom........God hope we don't have another Cindy trying to alibi her daughter. Yet she does say 7pm but not how long she was there. Funny how she calls it a crock.....Misty's family does not seem to be present during this. The women are two grandmothers of Ron's and two grandmothers of Chrystal's.

[SwFlorida]

I must agree. That is still the number one suspect for me. Some sexual deviant that had watch this house and probably saw Haleigh playing out in the yard.

imoo
I am leaning that way too. Has that one predator been found yet? Chad?

[Calla]

Yes headline DOES say that.
But article is from today, and that gun being stolen was known before.
Do you think this reporter is just stating this today even though that info was released a while bacK? I think that's what's confusing me.

But...wasn't it also reported early on that Misty had left the trailer and been gone all weekend and Ron went and brought her back to the trailer??

I'm confused

[GentleBreeze]

I am leaning that way too. Have that one predator been found yet? Chad?


Not as far as I have heard. Sure would like to know why he headed for the hills.

He has to know about this case by now and that they would be looking for him.

imo

[Snow_Dream]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, I'm more concerned about the pedophile that's missing, who just happened to have broken into a mobile home in the middle of the night to molest and 11 year old girl.

[cloe23]

I have never studied the mind of a pedophile, this abductions appears to be rocky (So many leads). Was this a child stocked or was this more spontaneous? Or is this so simple as the girl friend, done it?

[lune3]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement.

I lean towards this conclusion too, even through all the confusion of blankets, pink T shirts and deadbolts. Someone was stalking that house, had a fixation on Haleigh, and knew Ron worked at night. He took his opportunity. Whether Misty was asleep or out of the trailer, who knows?
Very difficult though to make sense of how it was done.

[n/t]

The thing is even if she was taken, to get back at Ron and we really dont know if that is what happened, but eachday puts Haleigh at a higher risk of being harmed.

Whomever has her, even if she is alive, is not going to bring her back now. There is too much heat and this case has gone national. No way in heck they will just bring her back safe and sound, unfortunately. The longer they have her the more of a liability poor little Haleigh becomes to this POS.:sad:


IMO


Yes sadly it doesn't look good for Haleigh. However, if someone took her to get back at Ron or some drug deal gone bad, maybe just maybe they'll find it in their heart to drop her off somewhere. There's still hope.

If it's a pedophile, I have less hope. :sad:

[summer4meplz]

HHN Paster said Ron was out on horse today searching places for Haleigh.


I wonder if they let him do that by himself....

[lune3]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, I'm more concerned about the pedophile that's missing, who just happened to have broken into a mobile home in the middle of the night to molest and 11 year old girl.

IIRC I read that that crime took place in 2002. That's 7 years or so ago. But that he's missing...either he met foul play and is dead, or he's on the run for a reason and that doesn't bode well.

[Destini]

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

The relative said the man disappeared the next day and the gun was found in a ditch.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

Okay, here's a theory. Misty & her cousin were molested by another cousin when Misty was 13, which in my mind makes him a pedofile. Same cousin according to Misty steals Ron's gun. The day before Haleigh disappears there is the fight over the gun. After Ron goes to work the cousin comes over to the house perhaps with Misty's brother & nephews. The cousin is hot over the gun incident &, being a pedofile, decides to "get back" at Ron by stealing his child. While at the home with Misty's brother he unlocks the back door, later somehow convinces the brother or someone to invite Misty over after the kids go to bed, at which time this cousin goes to the store & actually goes into the home & kidnaps this child.

Sounds plausible to me. Hope LE is considering this angle.

ETA: Also, this man disappears the next day, which coincidentally is when Haleigh disappears.

[CC I See]

While everyone is talking about a sexual predator taking Haleigh, yes, I believe it is possible. It is also possible that like Misty said, she was tired, very tired that night and maybe she lost her temper and killed Haleigh. She had time to clean up and then set the stage by opening the door and claiming that someone abducted her. When her story keeps changing, I don't think she is confused but lying .... like Marc Klass said, the truth doesn't change.

[cloe23]

Yes sadly it doesn't look good for Haleigh. However, if someone took her to get back at Ron or some drug deal gone bad, maybe just maybe they'll find it in their heart to drop her off somewhere. There's still hope.

If it's a pedophile, I have less hope. :sad:



My thinking is opposite of yours. I fear revenge more then pedophilia.
Lets get this child dropped off, enough done.
Safe place's for drop off are all over the map.
I wish LE would make this guy a temp. hero, drop the child off.
Unless I am missing something from the girl friend?

[VC2]

On the afternoon Haleigh disappeared, Misty's brother was over around 5pm with his two little kids. According to Misty, they stayed about a half hour. He has a van.
In the press conference it was mentioned that LE is investigating a vehicle, IIRC. It was not mentioned that it was the brother's van.

Also, early on in an interview, Misty had said a blanket was in the van, (when she looked for an extra blanket to cover Haleigh after finding that H's normal blanket smelled of pee.) Because it was in the van, she covered Haleigh with a sheet that she took off the window (as curtain I guess), and put the smelly one in the wash.

Hope I got that right.

hmmm couldnt that mean anyones vehicle? Remember they said they got a lead from the car checks...could be someone we haven't heard of, or was there more saying it was a van tied to ron and misty

[cloe23]

While everyone is talking about a sexual predator taking Haleigh, yes, I believe it is possible. It is also possible that like Misty said, she was tired, very tired that night and maybe she lost her temper and killed Haleigh. She had time to clean up and then set the stage by opening the door and claiming that someone abducted her. When her story keeps changing, I don't think she is confused but lying .... like Marc Klass said, the truth doesn't change.

I have thought this too. But wouldn't the cops be on that first? She is only 17yrs old. She ain't that smart. JMO

[cloe23]

maybe we are looking at the 'perfect crime'.
arranged by the girl friend, totally set up by her?

[summer4meplz]

SATSUMA, FL -- Family members of Ronald Cummings say he got into a fight with another man over a gun one day before his daughter disappeared.

A relative told First Coast News Cummings accused the other man of stealing a gun. The relative could not remember the name of the man or where the fight happened.

The relative said the man disappeared the next day and the gun was found in a ditch.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=131661&catid=3

Okay, here's a theory. Misty & her cousin were molested by another cousin when Misty was 13, which in my mind makes him a pedofile. Same cousin according to Misty steals Ron's gun. The day before Haleigh disappears there is the fight over the gun. After Ron goes to work the cousin comes over to the house perhaps with Misty's brother & nephews. The cousin is hot over the gun incident &, being a pedofile, decides to "get back" at Ron by stealing his child. While at the home with Misty's brother he unlocks the back door, later somehow convinces the brother or someone to invite Misty over after the kids go to bed, at which time this cousin goes to the store & actually goes into the home & kidnaps this child.

Sounds plausible to me. Hope LE is considering this angle.

ETA: Also, this man disappears the next day, which coincidentally is when Haleigh disappears.


sounds very plausible.......(bolded by me.)

poor little Haleigh.....

[CC I See]

I have thought this too. But wouldn't the cops be on that first? She is only 17yrs old. She ain't that smart. JMO.... they are giving her lots of room to make a mistake. I think that she messed up and hid what she did and it shows all over her face.

Someone mentioned earlier that Ron and Misty were not together anymore. So, far nothing official. There was also something posted earlier today where someone was claiming that Misty was cheating on Ron with his uncle.... that has not be verified. The link was posted earlier on this thread from the person who knew it to be fact.

[cloe23]

If this one doesn't get solved, it classifies as the "perfect crime". Sadly, there are a LOT of them out there. Missing mysteries, never solved. At first honestly I was dreading that her remains would be found. Now, the worst case seems unfolding - that no one will ever know and her family can never put this to rest. I don't see that they are one inch closer to discovering what happened to her than they were at 3:27 a.m. when the 911 call was placed. They've eliminated a lot of possibilities, and determined that perhaps Misty wasn't present when Haleigh was taken . . .which gets us not one iota closer to finding where she is.

This case, in my opinion, is well on its way to becoming yet another of thousands of "perfect crimes".

No way. She is still out there. I guess it is up to the family to find her then.

[PolyGraph]

I think you have to go with what's typical behavior in revenge.

What's typical, for two men in a fight? Maybe one man comes over drunk and tries to bring the fight back up. Maybe he comes over with a couple buddies. Maybe he smashes your windshield and tires.

Men who are the kind to get in this kind of fights with other men (and Ron does seem like this is possible) don't sneak around in the dead of night and steal little daughters. Drug cartels may do that, or people seeking large money ransoms.

Back woods guys who always are in fights don't seem to steal other people's children.

This child, I would bet anything, was taken by a pedophile, not someone angry about a gun disagreement. according to the bio mom, he was a drug dealer, for all we know is he may have owed someone alot of money for drugs, and they took his daughter instead, people on drugs are unpredictable so i wouildnt totally rule it out, MOO

[CC I See]

maybe we are looking at the 'perfect crime'.
arranged by the girl friend, totally set up by her?... to be the perfect crime, she would need to have hidden the body where it is never found and then blame it on a sexual predator that is never found. Might be just that easy.

[Destini]

sounds very plausible.......(bolded by me.)

poor little Haleigh.....

Actually, if something similar to this went down, the fact the cousin is a pedofile might even be a side issue, i.e., he didn't take her especially to molest her but more so to get revenge on Ron.

Misty may not be telling that she let this cousin back into their home out of fear of Ron. He would be furious if he knew that after having a fight with this guy.

This is only a THEORY based on news info. & the speculation that Misty is not telling the whole truth.

[cloe23]

according to the bio mom, he was a drug dealer, for all we know is he may have owed someone alot of money for drugs, and they took his daughter instead, people on drugs are unpredictable so i wouildnt totally rule it out, MOO

Confused as to where the bio mom is involved???

[PolyGraph]

.... they are giving her lots of room to make a mistake. I think that she messed up and hid what she did and it shows all over her face.

Someone mentioned earlier that Ron and Misty were not together anymore. So, far nothing official. There was also something posted earlier today where someone was claiming that Misty was cheating on Ron with his uncle.... that has not be verified. The link was posted earlier on this thread from the person who knew it to be fact. so weird someone mentioned that becuase that was my second thought, the first (before i saw bio mom on tv) was perhaps bio mom kidnapped her or used someone else to do it, second was that misty let someone in the home who was NOT supposed to be there, someone whom maybe she was cheating with or hanging out with that she knew ron would not approve of...and was afraid that perhaps ron would find out about it, or she was partying with people and ron didnt know and she left with someone and someone else who knew she was not there kidnappe dthe child...how esle can we explain how that back door got unlocked? MOO

[cloe23]

... to be the perfect crime, she would need to have hidden the body where it is never found and then blame it on a sexual predator that is never found. Might be just that easy.

IMO there is not a teenager ALIVE that is capable of keeping such a secret. There is more then one involved in this abduction.

[PolyGraph]

I hope I don't get blasted for this, but I have been following this story, I have observed the fathers interviews on NG and especially the one where he was with Misty on Greta. My feeling is, the father (Ron) may have very well known that his children were being left alone at night. Why do I say this? because in the 911 call he says twice "I was at work". Misty is only 17 years old, Ron has custody and if the authorities found out those kids were being left alone his custody would most definitely be in jeopardy.

Then, in the Greta interview Ron is correcting Misty as to the bed situation when Greta asked a question, even though he was not there that night. Even when Greta asked Misty to indicate with her hands as to how far apart the beds were Ron intervenes....why? why can't Misty answer the questions when SHE was supposedly there and he was at work?

Something is way off here and I'm not discounting anyone.

IMO Yeah i too agree, only thing is they may have both been leaving the children alone for little bits at a time for some reason i cant see the dad leaving those kids alone for that long, but maybe misty did being that he wasnt home all night and like i siad in a previous post, knowing teens the way they think they HATE being alone, so im sure misty had some type of company either at that house or away from it, my guess is she knows who a suspect may be, that she either had someone in the house or had people over then left with someone and they someone else came in and took the girll moo I still think they should look under that trailor *im surprised that they hav enot yet??* that wwould usually be the first place police look...if a ped or someone she knew broke in the house when she was not home why leave with the child? they could have done something and left her burried somewhere there, hate to sound grim but that is what Im thinking happened...I pray she is alive somewhere but it certainly does not look good...MOO

[FrankieBones1]

... to be the perfect crime, she would need to have hidden the body where it is never found and then blame it on a sexual predator that is never found. Might be just that easy.I'm not all that familiar with trailer home parks. Do they have septic tanks, sewers? Anyone have an idea of how far away the closest pond or river is?

[PolyGraph]

I'm not all that familiar with trailer home parks. Do they have septic tanks, sewers? Anyone have an idea of how far away the closest pond or river is? hahaha frankie your own both posts (caylee and haleigh ) too, thats actually sad never mind...

[SwFlorida]

IMO...if we can figure out the "Daisy chain" we can locate Haleigh..:chicken:

[PolyGraph]

Actually, if something similar to this went down, the fact the cousin is a pedofile might even be a side issue, i.e., he didn't take her especially to molest her but more so to get revenge on Ron.

Misty may not be telling that she let this cousin back into their home out of fear of Ron. He would be furious if he knew that after having a fight with this guy.

This is only a THEORY based on news info. & the speculation that Misty is not telling the whole truth. hey destiny i thoughtabout the cousin too i would just be surprised though if le hasnt asked her this already, (who was in the home with her) although she would prob not admit to that...MOO

[SwFlorida]

I'm not all that familiar with trailer home parks. Do they have septic tanks, sewers? Anyone have an idea of how far away the closest pond or river is?
I don't know about the water, but it could be sewer or septic, but IMO it most likely a sepic tank.

[VC2]

according to the bio mom, he was a drug dealer, for all we know is he may have owed someone alot of money for drugs, and they took his daughter instead, people on drugs are unpredictable so i wouildnt totally rule it out, MOO

i dont trust the bio mom much on this. I take any accusation of hers with a bowl of salt. What someone did years ago and what they do now are two different things

[FrankieBones1]

according to the bio mom, he was a drug dealer, for all we know is he may have owed someone alot of money for drugs, and they took his daughter instead, people on drugs are unpredictable so i wouildnt totally rule it out, MOO
And we would not have to take her word for it. We saw Ron's rap sheet on here yesterday. Lots of drug crimes.

[Calla]

I wouldn't take the bio moms word as any more trustworthy than any other player in this case.

Also, IMO, drug dealers don't take children in lieu of drug money. They want their money.

Do you know of any drug dealers that kidnapped a 4 year old in lieu of payment?

Might have been said.......

Don't know if the child was 4 yrs old or not but it did happen out west..iirc the grdad was in debt to the dealers and they stole the grchild or something along those lines..then they arrested the grfather as well before it was all over.
Maybe that child was like 6 or so...

[FrankieBones1]

The St John's River is within walking distance, not sure but would assume since they are on a dirt road they probably use a septic tank.

JMO
I was surprised how large the home was and how big the lots appear to be. I would hate to think that Haleigh's body was hidden in a tank. It has happened before in child disappearance cases.

[Calla]

I was surprised how large the home was and how big the lots appear to be. I would hate to think that Haleigh's body was hidden in a tank. It has happened before in child disappearance cases.

Yes one case it happened in..they thot the child was abducted and later found he had fallen into a septic tank in the yard...tragic

[lune3]

Might have been said.......

Don't know if the child was 4 yrs old or not but it did happen out west..iirc the grdad was in debt to the dealers and they stole the grchild or something along those lines..then they arrested the grfather as well before it was all over.
Maybe that child was like 6 or so...

Oh yes, that was in Las Vegas, but that family, or rather the grand dad was heavily into the drug scene.

In this case I doubt that drug debts etc are involved. Besides, Ron's past with drug possession happened when he was 18. Evidently there have been no incidents or arrests since.

[CANDYKISSES]

And we would not have to take her word for it. We saw Ron's rap sheet on here yesterday. Lots of drug crimes.


Her own mother turned her in for drug use IIRC and Crystal finally admitted after all her uh-huh's etc...that she used Cocaine and the timing she ADMITTED TO would basically be when she was pregnant with the son. So, I dunno, but it doesn't sound too good there either.

JMO tho.

We also saw where she admitted some of the fifteen appointments missed for her child were due to her NOT FEELING LIKE GETTING OUT OF BED.....Yikes....:thumbdown:

Then she has a pretty ugly wrecked car on her myspace with her pics and it's unclear who was at fault.

It's all a crapshoot with those two and I wouldn't call either a FIT PARTY for custody, but the courts found Ron's to be the best place for some reason. JMO

[Magnum357]

And we would not have to take her word for it. We saw Ron's rap sheet on here yesterday. Lots of drug crimes.

Lots of drug charges---all on one day, when he was 18yrs. old. Over 2/3 of the charges on that rap sheet were from one day, 7 yrs ago. (12-12-02)

[lune3]

Lots of drug charges---all on one day, when he was 18yrs. old. Over 2/3 of the charges on that rap sheet were from one day, 7 yrs ago. (12-12-02)

Yes that's right, and evidently nothing since. I really don't think this abduction (if that's what happened) has anything to do with drugs.

[Calla]

Well I don't need to say it but I am...

Ron may have had a rap sheet full of drug charges, but another baby's parent didn't have one and yet she is charged with her murder.

I don't think his rap sheet is necessarily indicative of the kind of parent he was or the home he provided for Haleigh.
Also, I am not surprised the CPS admits being involved with the family. Any accusations thrown about during a child custody issue would be investigated.
I know someone who spends her spare time making false claims to CPS , then they go out to investigate, then they follow up, then they find the accusations unfounded, and then our tax dollars pay for someone's amusement.

I have decided the whole world has gone crazy....and I'm slowly losing my mind trying to keep up with these tragic cases :confused: