Fisher/Young case 2/12

[Barbara2]

Brought over from the last thread

Unread 02-12-2009, 06:22 PM
5swab5 5swab5 is offline
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Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyn View Post
Wrong.

http://karlknudsenlaw.com/attorneys/Karl-Knudsen/

"One of only five Lawyers Board Certified in State Criminal Law practicing in Raleigh, North Carolina, Karl Knudsen has tried literally hundreds of cases on both sides of the fence, as a prosecutor and as a defense lawyer, including dozens of murder cases."
Thanks for the link Wyn.

Knudsen certainly made a lot of sense last night.MOO
__________________
"Silence is Golden." At what Price?

[Barbara2]

I thought it interesting that he has been on both sides of the courtroom. I think his assessment says a lot with that in mind. IMO

[jerzeegirl]

I think if/when he is arrested and there is a trial, there are going to be alot of "aha's" going on in this forum. There are probably quite a few things that LE and the prosecution know and we dont.

[alterEgo©]

Only dozens of murder cases, eh. Well that explains his idiotic statement about how 'throughough' the investigation is.

[alterEgo©]

I think if/when he is arrested and there is a trial, there are going to be alot of "aha's" going on in this forum. There are probably quite a few things that LE and the prosecution know and we dont.
I think there will be more 'wow's than 'aha's.

At least from me :smile:

[Barbara2]

I think there will be more 'wow's than 'aha's.

At least from me :smile:

I guess it depends on how you define "wow". If it's sort of like "OMG!", I think you may be right. IMO

[alterEgo©]

It appears that this case is gearing up to be one of 'character'. By that I mean, that the evidence against Jason is how he 'acted' and it being deemed inappropiate because it isn't how the person making the determination would have acted/not acted.

I recall many posts in defense of Meredith's 911 call that said 'you don't know how you would act in that situation', yet 'how I would act' is a common theme in 'judging' Jason's character and determing his actions are evidence of guilt.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or another bash Jason session, just asking how the 2 opposites can be reconciled. I have always struggled with the use of character issues to prove guilt, especially in light of the Cynthia Sommers case.

If we are all different and take pride in our individuality, how can that individuality then be used against us as some type of evidence that we committed a crime?

[Barbara2]

It appears that this case is gearing up to be one of 'character'. By that I mean, that the evidence against Jason is how he 'acted' and it being deemed inappropiate because it isn't how the person making the determination would have acted/not acted.

I recall many posts in defense of Meredith's 911 call that said 'you don't know how you would act in that situation', yet 'how I would act' is a common theme in 'judging' Jason's character and determing his actions are evidence of guilt.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or another bash Jason session, just asking how the 2 opposites can be reconciled. I have always struggled with the use of character issues to prove guilt, especially in light of the Cynthia Sommers case.

If we are all different and take pride in our individuality, how can that individuality then be used against us as some type of evidence that we committed a crime?

I disagree. I think the evidence apart from his refusal to talk shows his guilt. Some of it obviously has not been made public. I really do think you will have many "WOW!" moments when the case goes to trial and you hear the evidence. JMO

[luna24]

It appears that this case is gearing up to be one of 'character'. By that I mean, that the evidence against Jason is how he 'acted' and it being deemed inappropiate because it isn't how the person making the determination would have acted/not acted.

I recall many posts in defense of Meredith's 911 call that said 'you don't know how you would act in that situation', yet 'how I would act' is a common theme in 'judging' Jason's character and determing his actions are evidence of guilt.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or another bash Jason session, just asking how the 2 opposites can be reconciled. I have always struggled with the use of character issues to prove guilt, especially in light of the Cynthia Sommers case.

If we are all different and take pride in our individuality, how can that individuality then be used against us as some type of evidence that we committed a crime?
you're comparing apples to oranges. Meredith had just discovered the body of her murdered sister...JY's actions started that evening and have continued to raise eyebrows for the past 2 yrs and 4 months since her murder.

[achristie]

It appears that this case is gearing up to be one of 'character'. By that I mean, that the evidence against Jason is how he 'acted' and it being deemed inappropiate because it isn't how the person making the determination would have acted/not acted.

I recall many posts in defense of Meredith's 911 call that said 'you don't know how you would act in that situation', yet 'how I would act' is a common theme in 'judging' Jason's character and determing his actions are evidence of guilt.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or another bash Jason session, just asking how the 2 opposites can be reconciled. I have always struggled with the use of character issues to prove guilt, especially in light of the Cynthia Sommers case.

If we are all different and take pride in our individuality, how can that individuality then be used against us as some type of evidence that we committed a crime?

I disagree. Gearing up to be a case of character? No way.
More like a methodically built case of circumstantial evidence.

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

So, y'all don't want to discuss the slipperly slope of character assassination used as evidence of guilt. Like what happened to Cynithia Sommers.

I at least expected someone to say something along the lines of 'his affairs showed that he didn't take his vows seriously and that he didn't love his wife. And if he didn't love her, it makes murder
a line he would cross. Because people don't kill what they love."

Can't say I didn't try.

*sigh*

ETA - character (state of mind) is CE and I have no fruit (apples, oranges, pears or grapes)

[achristie]

So, y'all don't want to discuss the slipperly slope of character assassination used as evidence of guilt. Like what happened to Cynithia Sommers.

I at least expected someone to say something along the lines of 'his affairs showed that he didn't take his vows seriously and that he didn't love his wife. And if he didn't love her, it makes murder
a line he would cross. Because people don't kill what they love."

Can't say I didn't try.

*sigh*

ETA - character (state of mind) is CE

I don't know anything about Cynthia Sommers. Guess you didn't like my response.:ohmy:

[alterEgo©]

I disagree. I think the evidence apart from his refusal to talk shows his guilt. Some of it obviously has not been made public. I really do think you will have many "WOW!" moments when the case goes to trial and you hear the evidence. JMOWhat non-character/behavior evidence do you think shows his guilt?

[alterEgo©]

I don't know anything about Cynthia Sommers. Guess you didn't like my response.:ohmy:It's not that I didn't like it, it's just that it didn't make sense because behavior is CE.

[Doorbell]

It appears that this case is gearing up to be one of 'character'. By that I mean, that the evidence against Jason is how he 'acted' and it being deemed inappropiate because it isn't how the person making the determination would have acted/not acted.

I recall many posts in defense of Meredith's 911 call that said 'you don't know how you would act in that situation', yet 'how I would act' is a common theme in 'judging' Jason's character and determing his actions are evidence of guilt.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or another bash Jason session, just asking how the 2 opposites can be reconciled. I have always struggled with the use of character issues to prove guilt, especially in light of the Cynthia Sommers case.

If we are all different and take pride in our individuality, how can that individuality then be used against us as some type of evidence that we committed a crime?

There are certain universals in human behavior. Grieving is one of them. While it is true that people grieve differently, still, everyone grieves when a loved one dies. When a person's spouse is killed, the survivor wants justice. For Jason not to pursue that is a huge red flag.

It's not so much how he acted compared to how I, personally, or anyone I know, or have read about, or anything like that. It's more that he did nothing.

No inquiries of the police as to how the investigation was going.

No answering questions. No saying, "Ask me anything. Give me a polygraph. I'll tell you whatever I can to help clear my name so you can move on to finding the person who killed my wife!"

No funeral arrangements. This is huge, also. Most of us who have lost a spouse will go to great lengths to be the one to arrange the funeral, memorial, etc., in order to ensure that our spouse's wishes are followed.

No headstone.

No sympathy whatsoever for Michelle's family (with the possible exclusion of Alan).

As far as the 911 call goes, I, personally, do not hear the much touted "flat affect" that Meredith is supposed to have displayed. I heard the tremor in her voice that is very real. I could hear the control that she was clinging to for all she was worth. And, if she did make conflicting statements (which, again, I didn't hear)...well, I have personal experience of making 911 calls and having the words come out garbled.

[alterEgo©]

The amount of otherwise unknown 'evidence' we have seen via 2 years of SW's is unprecedented.Oh please. :rolleyes:

[achristie]

It's not that I didn't like it, it's just that it didn't make sense because behavior is CE.

It didn't make sense? Are you kidding me? So sorry to disappoint you with my limited knowledge. :biggrin:

Were his behavior and character a large part of CE , I'd surmise he'd be behind bars by now.

Were we to discuss such things being valid you would be the first to jump all over it.

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

There are certain universals in human behavior. Grieving is one of them. While it is true that people grieve differently, still, everyone grieves when a loved one dies. When a person's spouse is killed, the survivor wants justice. For Jason not to pursue that is a huge red flag.

It's not so much how he acted compared to how I, personally, or anyone I know, or have read about, or anything like that. It's more that he did nothing.

No inquiries of the police as to how the investigation was going.

No answering questions. No saying, "Ask me anything. Give me a polygraph. I'll tell you whatever I can to help clear my name so you can move on to finding the person who killed my wife!"

No funeral arrangements. This is huge, also. Most of us who have lost a spouse will go to great lengths to be the one to arrange the funeral, memorial, etc., in order to ensure that our spouse's wishes are followed.

No headstone.

No sympathy whatsoever for Michelle's family (with the possible exclusion of Alan).

As far as the 911 call goes, I, personally, do not hear the much touted "flat affect" that Meredith is supposed to have displayed. I heard the tremor in her voice that is very real. I could hear the control that she was clinging to for all she was worth. And, if she did make conflicting statements (which, again, I didn't hear)...well, I have personal experience of making 911 calls and having the words come out garbled.

See, you listed various character issues and behaviors that you use to futher your argument that he is guilty. And no, I'm not saying your argument is invalid on it's face.

But those same character issues/behaviors have been displayed by the innocent and the guilty. We are all different and we all handle things differently and we all have different personalities. We all have different life events that shape our responses.

The question I have is, for those convinced Jason is guilty, how do you know that Jason's behavior would be different if he was innocent?

[alterEgo©]

It didn't make sense? Are you kidding me? So sorry to disappoint you with my limited knowledge. :biggrin:

Were his behavior and character a large part of CE , I'd surmise he'd be behind bars by now.

Were we to discuss such things being valid you would be the first to jump all over it.

MOO AggieUm...no, I'm not kidding you.

:rolleyes:

[achristie]

Um...no, I'm not kidding you.

:rolleyes:

LOL. I'm crushed.:tonguewag:

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

Does anyone know the wire tap laws in NC? I recall in Peterson West, Amber's recording of calls with Scott was 100% legal under Cali law that stipulated only one party in the conversation had to agree to the tap.

I'm just curious if MM was taping calls with JY all that time after the murder. LE is going after his email, so they definately want to know what he has been saying....

[alterEgo©]

LOL. I'm crushed.:tonguewag:

MOO Aggie


Naaaaah, your're not crushed, you're just a good egg.

most of the time.....:tonguewag:

[Leanne Weich]

So, y'all don't want to discuss the slipperly slope of character assassination used as evidence of guilt. Like what happened to Cynithia Sommers.

I at least expected someone to say something along the lines of 'his affairs showed that he didn't take his vows seriously and that he didn't love his wife. And if he didn't love her, it makes murder
a line he would cross. Because people don't kill what they love."

Can't say I didn't try.

*sigh*

ETA - character (state of mind) is CE and I have no fruit (apples, oranges, pears or grapes)

I'll have no problem discussing the assassination of Jason's character if he is convicted on that and then subsequently exonerated or if a conviction were to be obtained only by what is perceived to be his failure to act in what we (general we) deem to be appropriate.

I don't, however, think this case is going to come down to a character assassination trial. If that were the case, I imagine he'd have been arrested long ago.

Can you honestly say that you don't think that it's very probable that Jason is guilty, given his behaviour pertaining to the WDS and the Custody suit. I know that is also based on character but it's not speculating on rumours etc. It is a fact that he chose to throw in the towel and accepted a civil ruling of being named the slayer.

[Stellagant]

Does anyone know the wire tap laws in NC? I recall in Peterson West, Amber's recording of calls with Scott was 100% legal under Cali law that stipulated only one party in the conversation had to agree to the tap.

I'm just curious if MM was taping calls with JY all that time after the murder. LE is going after his email, so they definately want to know what he has been saying....

NC is a one-party state.

Cali is actually a both-party state. I was always mystified why Geragos didn't challenge the admissability of Amber's tapings. I wasn't aware that the Judge did rule on it. Thanks.

[Barbara2]

What non-character/behavior evidence do you think shows his guilt?

Not using his key card again when he was known to be out of his room at the hotel

The missing shirt

His dna surrounded by blood spatter on the wall

Not being able to be excluded from the dna on the jewelry box

Shoe print in blood matching a shoe sole known to be owned by him

"Coincidence" of sending his SIL to the house the next day on a suspicious errand

That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure there are others that have nothing to do with behavior/character issues.

[alterEgo©]

Not using his key card again when he was known to be out of his room at the hotel

The missing shirt

His dna surrounded by blood spatter on the wall

Not being able to be excluded from the dna on the jewelry box

Shoe print in blood matching a shoe sole known to be owned by him

"Coincidence" of sending his SIL to the house the next day on a suspicious errand

That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure there are others that have nothing to do with behavior/character issues.
Not using his room key - that could be argued as a non issue since I'm sure quite a few people have propped their doors so they don't have to use the key to get back in. I am very curious as to the time stamp on the hotel receipt. If it's the same time he was captured on video at the front desk, then I'm left wondering what he had to return to the hotel for that prompted a propping open of the outside door.

The missing shirt - the fact that LE didn't get a warrant to look at Heather and Pat's house for it for well over a year opens the door to a reasonable explanation as to why LE didn't find it - they waited so long to look.

DNA surrounded by blood splatter - since his DNA is expected to be in his house, this too has an 'innocent' explanation....on the surface. For some reason, I was under the impression the area in question had a 'dent' in the sheet rock.

DNA on the jewerly box - didn't a report say the DNA from the jewerly box was degraded? To me, that indicates it is old. And w/o knowing what markers matched, it's hard to say how significant it is to say Jason cannot be excluded as a donor. Again, he lived there and would have an innocent reason to handle the jewerly box.

Bloody shoe print - the outsole pattern matches 2 other shoe models, not just the ones they can prove Jason owned. Did he own them at the time of the murder is the question and if so, where are they now? With the shirt? And what about the size 10 Franklin? How do they tie that to Jason?

The printout. This, to me, is the clencher. And it raises a question in my mind - why would he wait until noon to call Meredith and 'rescue' Cassidy? If nothing else, this plays into a he-drugged-his-daughter argument very well as it could be argued he had to wait to call Meredith because Cassidy would still be out of it.

What doesn't make sense to me is that he had to clean himself up or risk transferring blood from the murder to his vehicle. If the theory that he took a shower is correct, that leaves me wondering why on earth didn't he 'clean up' the bathroom that Cassidy was cleaned up in? Why didn't he just pocket the Pancof after giving it to Cassidy instead of leaving it behind? Perhaps having to deal with Cassidy caught him by surprise with no plan on what to do - but on the same token, the strangulation failure seems to have taken him by surprise (evidenced by the overkill) yet he was seemingly able to clean up to the point that he didn't leave sufficient evidence behind that he was the perp.

[Barbara2]

The police took everything in his car that night when he came back to Raleigh. The shirt should have been there. It wasn't.

As to not cleaning up the bathroom, my thinking is that this crime took a lot longer than anticipated. I believe that it is possible that he took a shower after killing Michelle and it was while he was in the shower that Cassidy came into the room. I think he may have cleaned her up quickly but he was running out of time so he didn't have time to clean up the bathroom.

Those who commit crimes always make mistakes. It's just a matter of whether or not the investigators can tie those mistakes back to the criminal and the crime.

[alterEgo©]

But Barbara2, they didn't know to even look for the shirt when they impounded his vehicle. And they don't even list the luggage as items seized.

[Barbara2]

But Barbara2, they didn't know to even look for the shirt when they impounded his vehicle. And they don't even list the luggage as items seized.

I think there was discussion about this back some time ago. There is something about the contents of the car being part of the car and can be searched without a separate warrant. I don't know that they have to list it separately. I know that we were told that the family was upset because their luggage was in the car and therefore was "impounded" with the car. I do believe that they still had the car and luggage when they got the tape. IMO *Going to go look at the wording in the SW now.*

ETA: They viewed the security video on November 4th so they still had the luggage. IMO

[Leanne Weich]

aE, you can refute all those points very well but, at the end of the day, do you think a jury would believe that it is likely that one would have to explain so much away or do you think they'll see it as a sign of a guilty man who has to explain all these things away. It is my opinion that there will probably be so much CE that, in its totality, will seal his fate.

[Stellagant]

aE, you can refute all those points very well but, at the end of the day, do you think a jury would believe that it is likely that one would have to explain so much away or do you think they'll see it as a sign of a guilty man who has to explain all these things away. It is my opinion that there will probably be so much CE that, in its totality, will seal his fate.

I think AE's point is that under our court system, if there is an alternative, reasonable explanation for a piece of evidence--such as the fact Jason lived in the home and his DNA is expected to be present--a jury is instructed by the judge that they have to accept the reasonable explanation.

[Stellagant]

Not using his room key - that could be argued as a non issue since I'm sure quite a few people have propped their doors so they don't have to use the key to get back in. I am very curious as to the time stamp on the hotel receipt. If it's the same time he was captured on video at the front desk, then I'm left wondering what he had to return to the hotel for that prompted a propping open of the outside door.

The missing shirt - the fact that LE didn't get a warrant to look at Heather and Pat's house for it for well over a year opens the door to a reasonable explanation as to why LE didn't find it - they waited so long to look.

DNA surrounded by blood splatter - since his DNA is expected to be in his house, this too has an 'innocent' explanation....on the surface. For some reason, I was under the impression the area in question had a 'dent' in the sheet rock.

DNA on the jewerly box - didn't a report say the DNA from the jewerly box was degraded? To me, that indicates it is old. And w/o knowing what markers matched, it's hard to say how significant it is to say Jason cannot be excluded as a donor. Again, he lived there and would have an innocent reason to handle the jewerly box.

Bloody shoe print - the outsole pattern matches 2 other shoe models, not just the ones they can prove Jason owned. Did he own them at the time of the murder is the question and if so, where are they now? With the shirt? And what about the size 10 Franklin? How do they tie that to Jason?

The printout. This, to me, is the clencher. And it raises a question in my mind - why would he wait until noon to call Meredith and 'rescue' Cassidy? If nothing else, this plays into a he-drugged-his-daughter argument very well as it could be argued he had to wait to call Meredith because Cassidy would still be out of it.

What doesn't make sense to me is that he had to clean himself up or risk transferring blood from the murder to his vehicle. If the theory that he took a shower is correct, that leaves me wondering why on earth didn't he 'clean up' the bathroom that Cassidy was cleaned up in? Why didn't he just pocket the Pancof after giving it to Cassidy instead of leaving it behind? Perhaps having to deal with Cassidy caught him by surprise with no plan on what to do - but on the same token, the strangulation failure seems to have taken him by surprise (evidenced by the overkill) yet he was seemingly able to clean up to the point that he didn't leave sufficient evidence behind that he was the perp.

iirc, the residue in the dropper wasn't Pancof, it was Tylenol.
This could be why LE concluded the child wasn't bloodied because she was drugged but was because she was removed from the scene? Don't forget there is the newspaper delivery witness who lends support to this theory.

[Barbara2]

iirc, the residue in the dropper wasn't Pancof, it was Tylenol.
This could be why LE concluded the child wasn't bloodied because she was drugged but was because she was removed from the scene? Don't forget there is the newspaper delivery witness who lends support to this theory.

They didn't say what the residue was but the latest search warrant went into great detail regarding the Pancof. They also stated in the warrant that Mrs. Young told the detectives that Jason had admitted to her that he gave Cassidy adult cold medicines but that he diluted them with water. They did say that it was a pancof medicine dropper that was seized. IMO

[5swab5]

I think AE's point is that under our court system, if there is an alternative, reasonable explanation for a piece of evidence--such as the fact Jason lived in the home and his DNA is expected to be present--a jury is instructed by the judge that they have to accept the reasonable explanation.


A judge also tells the jurors that they each bring their own common sense and life experiences with them and that they are not expected to "check" those at the door. Jurors are ordinary people, that are entrusted with finding the truth.

Jurors will take into account some extraneous explanation for certain things, but when they have to start doing that for every little thing, they too realize that they are being asked to make too many excuses, and they will quit.

CE cases are some of the strongest, because they do require the jurors to be very analytical. They get to figure out for themselves which side is trying to fool them. MOO

[5swab5]

iirc, the residue in the dropper wasn't Pancof, it was Tylenol.
This could be why LE concluded the child wasn't bloodied because she was drugged but was because she was removed from the scene? Don't forget there is the newspaper delivery witness who lends support to this theory.


How exactly, does a newspaper delivery person's statement that there was a vehicle in the driveway early in the morning, that was not dissimilar to Jason Young's...morph into Cassidy was "removed from the scene"? Preposterous. MOO

[Stellagant]

They didn't say what the residue was but the latest search warrant went into great detail regarding the Pancof. They also stated in the warrant that Mrs. Young told the detectives that Jason had admitted to her that he gave Cassidy adult cold medicines but that he diluted them with water. They did say that it was a pancof medicine dropper that was seized. IMO

A pancof dropper may have been seized but that isn't the one they tested for CY's DNA. In the s/w for Cassidy's DNA (that was sealed), Spivey said he believed the red liquid residual was Tylenol. He also includes a photograph and a description of the red liquid in the Tylenol bottle. He further states:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

It is further believed that the medication was delivered to the child under the mistaken belief that it would cause drowsiness. Once the child was asleep, the perpetrator would have been able to continue their attack without worrying about the interference from the child."

[Barbara2]

A pancof dropper may have been seized but that isn't the one they tested for CY's DNA. In the s/w for Cassidy's DNA (that was sealed), Spivey said he believed the red liquid residual was Tylenol. He also includes a photograph and a description of the red liquid in the Tylenol bottle. He further states:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083976/1228503955-20081205131342180.pdf

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

It is further believed that the medication was delivered to the child under the mistaken belief that it would cause drowsiness. Once the child was asleep, the perpetrator would have been able to continue their attack without worrying about the interference from the child."

I was referring to the most recent warrant. It is more likely to contain the most accurate information, IMO.

[Stellagant]

A judge also tells the jurors that they each bring their own common sense and life experiences with them and that they are not expected to "check" those at the door. Jurors are ordinary people, that are entrusted with finding the truth.

Jurors will take into account some extraneous explanation for certain things, but when they have to start doing that for every little thing, they too realize that they are being asked to make too many excuses, and they will quit.

CE cases are some of the strongest, because they do require the jurors to be very analytical. They get to figure out for themselves which side is trying to fool them. MOO

Sorry but as much as I know you want to believe it, a juror can't ignore jury instructions. Jurors take an oath they will follow the judge's instructions and don't get to "figure out for themselves" outside of those jury instructions.

[Stellagant]

I was referring to the most recent warrant. It is more likely to contain the most accurate information, IMO.

I didn't say the most recent warrants weren't accurate, I provided a link that proves the dropper tested for CY's DNA is the one Spivey believed contained Tylenol residue.

Nowhere in the most recent warrants does Spivey claim the Pancof dropper was tested for DNA. Can you never admit when you are wrong? GMAB

[Stellagant]

How exactly, does a newspaper delivery person's statement that there was a vehicle in the driveway early in the morning, that was not dissimilar to Jason Young's...morph into Cassidy was "removed from the scene"? Preposterous. MOO

The vehicle the witness saw is also similar to Michelle Young's vehicle and thus supports Spivey's theory that CY was removed from the scene. If you find it preposterous, you'll have to take it up with Investigator Spivey:

"Due to the situation with the child's bloodied footprints versus the clean condition of the child's feet when found; the confusion over the keys to the decedent's vehicle and how they came to be placed on the kitchen counter and Meredith Fisher's keys being found on the hood of the decedent's vehicle, it is believed that the 2000 Lexus silver Lexus RX 300 could have been used to transport the child from the scene."

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083955/1228504020-20081205131306653.pdf

[5swab5]

Sorry but as much as I know you want to believe it, a juror can't ignore jury instructions. Jurors take an oath they will follow the judge's instructions and don't get to "figure out for themselves" outside of those jury instructions.

Once again you are wrong. No surprise there.

After many trials are over, jurors have gone into great detail about how they came to their conclusions. Some have even gone so far as to say, that they were surprised that none of the lawyers brought up certain points. MOO

[5swab5]

The vehicle the witness saw is also similar to Michelle Young's vehicle and thus supports Spivey's theory that CY was removed from the scene. If you find it preposterous, you'll have to take it up with Investigator Spivey:

"Due to the situation with the child's bloodied footprints versus the clean condition of the child's feet when found; the confusion over the keys to the decedent's vehicle and how they came to be placed on the kitchen counter and Meredith Fisher's keys being found on the hood of the decedent's vehicle, it is believed that the 2000 Lexus silver Lexus RX 300 could have been used to transport the child from the scene."

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/05/4083955/1228504020-20081205131306653.pdf

Funny that you are willing to believe Spivey in the PC part of a SW.

Especially when you dismiss out of hand his affidavit that clearly states that he believes that Jason murdered Michelle. MOO

[Stellagant]

But Barbara2, they didn't know to even look for the shirt when they impounded his vehicle. And they don't even list the luggage as items seized.

You are correct, they didn't seize the luggage nor any clothing at all, according to the list. They could only seize items they believed could be tied to the murder. Barbara is making a giant leap and concluding they looked for the shirt and didn't find it. A more reasonable conclusion is that they looked through the luggage for any evidence of blood/murder and didn't find any. Even if they did know about the shirt and looked for it, they couldn't seize it if it didn't have evidence on it.

[Stellagant]

********************

Nope, WRONG again !!

(Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 USC 2516)
Until recently, California wiretapping laws were much more restrictive,
prohibiting all wiretaps without the consent of all parties to the
conversation, except for investigations involving certain controlled
substances violations (California Penal Code 629; 629.02; 631). However, as of January 1, 1996, the State Legislature amended this law to allow state law enforcement officials to obtain wiretaps in investigations involving murder, solicitation to commit murder, aggravated kidnapping, crimes involving bombings, and conspiracy to commit any of these offenses.

The state became a ONE party state in 1996, GMAB don't you ever check your facts before you post? Lots of misinformation coming from your end there Stellgant, tsk tsk !!!!

You're making yet another baseless accusation against me which seems to be a habit with you. My reference was to Amber Frey's tape recordings, not law enforcement's as my comment makes clear: I was always mystified why Geragos didn't challenge the admissability of Amber's tapings.

California requires all parties to consent.

http://www.nixonpeabody.com/publications_detail3.asp?ID=1432

Section 632 of the California Penal Code provides that all parties to the a telephone conversation must be informed of or consent to the recording of the conversation

[Stellagant]

Why would Barbara2 admit she was wrong ?
She wasn't, but you ARE !!
Here's the REAL excerpt from the search warrant and it spells out exactly the opposite of what you are posting:

As stated Pancof PD is a medication that was located on a shelf in Cassidy Young's room on November 3rd, 2006 It and a bottle of Adult Extra Strength Tylenol were the only non-children's medications seen on the shelves. Pancof PD is noteworthy because of it's possible sleep inducing side effects. A Pancof PD dropper was also discovered on the shelves and was seized for additonal testing.
A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI Laboratory Report states the following : "The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young and DID NOT MATCH the DNA profiles of Michelle Young..."

No where does it state that an Adult Extra Strength Tylenol dropper was seized or tested, ONLY the Pandof PD dropper was seized and tested.

LINK is in the Link and Timeline Thread...

Yeah, no surprise you don't link it. I'm getting tired of your baseless accusations and misrepresentations of my posts.

I posted a link. Nowhere in my posting did I say an "Adult Extra Strength Tylenol dropper was seized and tested." Nowhere on the warrant for Cassidy's DNA that I linked is a "Pandof PD dropper" mentioned. Both medications are adult and I've never seen an adult medication come with a "dropper" for dispensing to children, have you?

The important point is that the dropper was located near the Tylenol and appeared to have residue of Tylenol.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

[tiny paw-prints]

You're making yet another baseless accusation against me which seems to be a habit with you. My reference was to Amber Frey's tape recordings, not law enforcement's as my comment makes clear: I was always mystified why Geragos didn't challenge the admissability of Amber's tapings.

California requires all parties to consent.

http://www.nixonpeabody.com/publications_detail3.asp?ID=1432

Section 632 of the California Penal Code provides that all parties to the a telephone conversation must be informed of or consent to the recording of the conversation

I'm somewhat confused. Isn't this forum about the Michelle Young murder case in North Carolina?

Can we please stay on topic? TIA

[achristie]

I'm somewhat confused. Isn't this forum about the Michelle Young murder case in North Carolina?

Can we please stay on topic? TIA


Hey, Tiny. Have you kept up on all the latest? Looks as though things are moving along.

MOO Aggie

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Funny that you are willing to believe Spivey in the PC part of a SW.

Especially when you dismiss out of hand his affidavit that clearly states that he believes that Jason murdered Michelle. MOO

I thought someone claimed that Spivey was no longer on the case?

[Stellagant]

I'm somewhat confused. Isn't this forum about the Michelle Young murder case in North Carolina?

Can we please stay on topic? TIA

My posting was on-topic and in response.

What confuses me is why you make one post and it's about me. I'm not the topic.

[tiny paw-prints]

Hey, Tiny. Have you kept up on all the latest? Looks as though things are moving along.

MOO Aggie

Hi there! Yes, I'm trying to keep abreast of the latest, and I agree with you that things are moving along as they should be. I realize it's been quite a long time, but sometimes there are very good reasons as to why.

I'm a long time child advocate/court liason, so I'm not a bit surprised that the issue of child custody has taken place at this time. Seems to me that an arrest is right around the corner; one of which will be in Cassidy's best interest in more ways than what the average person might think.

I believe this entire case and it's investigation involves quite a bit of very fragile circumstantial evidence.


Keep the faith!

[Hey Paula]

Hi Tiny!

I think the handling and timing of this case was strategically planned, much of it with Cassidy in mind. I feel confident it will progress rapidly, resulting in the arrest, indictment and conviction of JY.

IMO

It's great to see you!!!

[achristie]

]

Interesting that you view the CE as very fragile. I'm unschooled in these matters , but have been encouraged to see some movement in this case. Perhaps, when you have time, you could expound on the "fragile" parts.

Nice to see you.
Aggie

[Barbara2]

I didn't say the most recent warrants weren't accurate, I provided a link that proves the dropper tested for CY's DNA is the one Spivey believed contained Tylenol residue.

Nowhere in the most recent warrants does Spivey claim the Pancof dropper was tested for DNA. Can you never admit when you are wrong? GMAB

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. If I ever am, I'll make sure that you're the first to know.

[Stellagant]

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. If I ever am, I'll make sure that you're the first to know.

No need to await for that unlikely event when all anyone has to do is read the search warrant to discover the dropper was near the Tylenol, it contained a red residue and Spivey believed the Tylenol was administered to Cassidy.

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf

[Barbara2]

No need to await for that unlikely event when all anyone has to do is read the search warrant to discover the dropper was near the Tylenol, it contained a red residue and Spivey believed the Tylenol was administered to Cassidy.

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf

Again from the old search warrant. I'm talking about the latest search warrant and all of the emphasis is on the PancofPD. It is the "PancofPD dropper" that has a match to Cassidy's DNA. Just because the detective had a theory back in the beginning doesn't mean the evidence supported that theory. You really should read the most recent warrant in it's entirety. IMO

[tarheelfan]

SG you're so obssed with the reddish liquid on the dropper.....but FYI Pancof syrup is a reddish/amber color. Yes, he referred to a reddish liquid.....Pancof perhaps????

[Jules2]

No need to await for that unlikely event when all anyone has to do is read the search warrant to discover the dropper was near the Tylenol, it contained a red residue and Spivey believed the Tylenol was administered to Cassidy.

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf


Whatever! They make children's Tylenol for a reason. Any parent who administers adult Tylenol (if that is what was in the dropper) to a child whether watered down or not, should have their head examined. IMO

[Barbara2]

Whatever! They make children's Tylenol for a reason. Any parent who administers adult Tylenol (if that is what was in the dropper) to a child whether watered down or not, should have their head examined. IMO


It wasn't just adult Tylenol either. It was adult Tylenol extra strength cold medicine. But that was from an earlier search warrant. The most recent focuses on the Pancof PD.

[Doorbell]

iirc, the residue in the dropper wasn't Pancof, it was Tylenol.
This could be why LE concluded the child wasn't bloodied because she was drugged but was because she was removed from the scene? Don't forget there is the newspaper delivery witness who lends support to this theory.

IIRC, the newspaper delivery person said the vehicle was backed up as if to load or unload something. A vehicle does not have to be in that position to put a child in her car seat.

Do you have the witness's reported words handy?

I was thinking that Jason might have been planning to remove Michelle's body (if the strangulation had worked), and that's why the vehicle was positioned to load or unload something.

IMO

[Doorbell]

You're making yet another baseless accusation against me which seems to be a habit with you. My reference was to Amber Frey's tape recordings, not law enforcement's as my comment makes clear: I was always mystified why Geragos didn't challenge the admissability of Amber's tapings.

California requires all parties to consent.

http://www.nixonpeabody.com/publications_detail3.asp?ID=1432

Section 632 of the California Penal Code provides that all parties to the a telephone conversation must be informed of or consent to the recording of the conversation

As LE provided the recording equipment and encouraged Amber to use it, AND, as Geragos didn't challenge it, I think it might be safe to conclude that the taping was legal.

[blueridge]

No need to await for that unlikely event when all anyone has to do is read the search warrant to discover the dropper was near the Tylenol, it contained a red residue and Spivey believed the Tylenol was administered to Cassidy.

"On the same shelf as the bottle of Tylenol is a "dropper" which is commonly used to deliver liquid medications to children. Contained within the pipette of the dropper, there appears to be a red liquid residual.

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf

whatever cassidy was given knocked her out.
was it the pancof or was it the adult tylenol?
neither was meant for children.
jason was the rep for pancof.

[Barbara2]

You really think she was knocked out with something? Do you think she stayed knocked out tell MF walked into the room and she awoke in the mood we heard her in on the 911 call? I would expect if it was enough to knock her out for 8 hrs she would have been groggy a not wanting to chat like she was. Also how could JY know how much to give her so she would awake the minute MF walked into the room? I don't believe she was given anything. I don't believe she was there. We don't know how much of the medicine was gone maybe MY also gave her adult cold meds. I can't figure why she would but then I can't figure why that stuff was in a child's room.

Jason's mother told the investigators that Jason admitted that he gave Cassidy the medication. It's in the latest search warrant.

[Leanne Weich]

Jason's mother told the investigators that Jason admitted that he gave Cassidy the medication. It's in the latest search warrant.

Can you believe a pharmaceutical rep would be so irresponsible as to dose his child with adult medication? Although, thinking about it, it's not such a leap if one is capable of murder I guess.

[Stellagant]

Again from the old search warrant. I'm talking about the latest search warrant and all of the emphasis is on the PancofPD. It is the "PancofPD dropper" that has a match to Cassidy's DNA. Just because the detective had a theory back in the beginning doesn't mean the evidence supported that theory. You really should read the most recent warrant in it's entirety. IMO

It isn't an "old" search warrant, it is the ONLY search warrant used to obtain Cassidy's DNA and it was sealed. Pancof wasn't even mentioned in that warrant and it is the only search warrant that includes Spivey's theory the child was given Tylenol in the mistaken belief it would knock her out. In reality, nowhere in the latter warrants does Spivey present a new theory that Cassidy was given the Pancof the night of the murder by the perpetrator. That's all been inferred by you.

[Stellagant]

Whatever! They make children's Tylenol for a reason. Any parent who administers adult Tylenol (if that is what was in the dropper) to a child whether watered down or not, should have their head examined. IMO

They make children's Tylenol for parents' convenience or who are unable to figure out the proper dosage. What difference does it make whether the manufacturer waters it down or Jason waters it down? No difference at all, imo.

[Stellagant]

You really think she was knocked out with something? Do you think she stayed knocked out tell MF walked into the room and she awoke in the mood we heard her in on the 911 call? I would expect if it was enough to knock her out for 8 hrs she would have been groggy a not wanting to chat like she was. Also how could JY know how much to give her so she would awake the minute MF walked into the room? I don't believe she was given anything. I don't believe she was there. We don't know how much of the medicine was gone maybe MY also gave her adult cold meds. I can't figure why she would but then I can't figure why that stuff was in a child's room.

ITA. Spivey didn't think she was knocked out. Spivey's theory is that she was given the Tylenol by someone who had the mistaken belief it would knock her out. Any parent knows Tylenol doesn't make a kid sleepy so it musta been given to her by someone who isn't a parent. :wink:

[Stellagant]

whatever cassidy was given knocked her out.
was it the pancof or was it the adult tylenol?
neither was meant for children.
jason was the rep for pancof.

Got a link to support your claim Cassidy was knocked out?

Spivey clearly states in the search warrant for CY's DNA:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf

Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

It is further believed that the medication was delivered to the child under the mistaken belief that it would cause drowsiness.

Spivey never states in any search warrant that he believes the child was knocked out with any medication.

[5swab5]

They make children's Tylenol for parents' convenience or who are unable to figure out the proper dosage. What difference does it make whether the manufacturer waters it down or Jason waters it down? No difference at all, imo.

Ridiculous!
It makes a great bit of difference to a great number of parents, and it will make a great deal of difference to jurors. I guess anything goes in your mind, Jason can do no wrong. Next thing, you will be saying that it is OK for Jason to give Mr. Garrison's meds to Cassidy, as long as he crunches them up in her food. MOO

[Leanne Weich]

Ridiculous!
It makes a great bit of difference to a great number of parents, and it will make a great deal of difference to jurors. I guess anything goes in your mind, Jason can do no wrong. Next thing, you will be saying that it is OK for Jason to give Mr. Garrison's meds to Cassidy, as long as he crunches them up in her food. MOO

Jason was a pharmaceutical rep with a degree in textiles I believe. He didn't have a pharmacological degree so what does he know about diluting adult extra strength meds. to give his child. Totally irresponsible and, if that is how he takes care of her, I'm so thankful that the majority of her upbringing will be by someone else.

[Stellagant]

Jason was a pharmaceutical rep with a degree in textiles I believe. He didn't have a pharmacological degree so what does he know about diluting adult extra strength meds. to give his child. Totally irresponsible and, if that is how he takes care of her, I'm so thankful that the majority of her upbringing will be by someone else.

Pharmaceutical reps receive extensive training. Parents can also pick up the phone and call a pediatrician for guidance. CY's medical records do list Tylenol, which isn't a prescription drug. Childless aunts certainly wouldn't know Tylenol doesn't cause drowsiness and wouldn't know the dosage needed.

Bottom line is that the investigator, Spivey, has stated in sworn testimony which you apparently refuse to read:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5131342180.pdf


Due to the location of the Tylenol and the dropper, it is believed that the medication was delivered to Cassidy Young.

It is further believed that the medication was delivered to the child under the mistaken belief that it would cause drowsiness.

[Stellagant]

Its easy for every one to blame the adult medicine on JY but remember the medicine was on a shelf in CY's room. MY lived in that house the medicine was there when she was alive. So how do you know that wasn't the way MY gave medicine? I don't believe JY carried that medicine in there that night and just left it in plain view. Actually I don't believe JY was even there that night. So what I should have said is I don't believe the killer or killers took that medicine in there. So it's my assumption that MY knew the medicine was there and I'm sure if her daughter needed it she also gave it. Maybe LE would be so kind as to tell the insiders who's prints was on the bottle and dropper. I noticed the warrant didn't have that information. There are people here that talk to LE they have stated they know things about the case they can't tell us but also state LE knows these things . So I wish they would tell us who's prints was found on the bottles.

I think it's likely no prints were found on the bottles and that's why LE thinks the perp gave the medicine. We don't know that it was Jason or Michelle who left the adult medicine in CY's room but even if they did, one or the other's prints should have been on the dropper.

It is also very possible both meds were carried into the room by the perpetrator and she decided to give the Tylenol because she wasn't familiar with the other drug. The intent was to make CY drowsy, not harm her.

According to Spivey's sworn testimony on the search warrant, the medication he believes was given was the Tylenol and the intent was to make CY drowsy.

[Cardinal]

~snipped~

According to Spivey's sworn testimony on the search warrant, the medication he believes was given was the Tylenol and the intent was to make CY drowsy.

While Spivey may indeed have believed that in July 2007, it appears he no longer does, based upon his sworn testimony in the Feb 2009 SW:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf

"A Pancof PD dropper was also discovered on the shelves and was seized for additional testing...A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI laboratory report states the following: "The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young....""

I seen no mention in the Feb 2007 SW of a Tylenol dropper, so the logical conclusion is that the Pancof PD dropper is the only dropper currently of interest.

[jerry50]

I think it's likely no prints were found on the bottles and that's why LE thinks the perp gave the medicine. We don't know that it was Jason or Michelle who left the adult medicine in CY's room but even if they did, one or the other's prints should have been on the dropper.

It is also very possible both meds were carried into the room by the perpetrator and she decided to give the Tylenol because she wasn't familiar with the other drug. The intent was to make CY drowsy, not harm her.

According to Spivey's sworn testimony on the search warrant, the medication he believes was given was the Tylenol and the intent was to make CY drowsy.


According to Det Spivey's affidavit to the judge in the WDS he said he believes that Jason Lynn Young was the slayer of Michelle Young. That would lead a person to believe that it was the named killer whom he believes gave Cassidy the drugs.

[Barbara2]

While Spivey may indeed have believed that in July 2007, it appears he no longer does, based upon his sworn testimony in the Feb 2009 SW:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf

"A Pancof PD dropper was also discovered on the shelves and was seized for additional testing...A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI laboratory report states the following: "The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young....""

I seen no mention in the Feb 2007 SW of a Tylenol dropper, so the logical conclusion is that the Pancof PD dropper is the only dropper currently of interest.

Thanks Cardinal! Maybe your phrasing will get through. Mine hasn't seemed to register.

[Stellagant]

While Spivey may indeed have believed that in July 2007, it appears he no longer does, based upon his sworn testimony in the Feb 2009 SW:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2009/02/10/4508366/20090210114743620.pdf

"A Pancof PD dropper was also discovered on the shelves and was seized for additional testing...A Pancof PD dropper that was seized from Cassidy Young's room at the Birchleaf scene was analyzed and compared to known DNA samples. The SBI laboratory report states the following: "The partial DNA sample obtained from the dropper MATCHED the DNA profile obtained from Cassidy Young....""

I seen no mention in the Feb 2007 SW of a Tylenol dropper, so the logical conclusion is that the Pancof PD dropper is the only dropper currently of interest.

If you would slow down and read the July 2007 warrant more slowly, you will see that Spivey only uses the term "dropper" He never called it a "Tylenol dropper."

[Cardinal]

Thanks Cardinal! Maybe your phrasing will get through. Mine hasn't seemed to register.

Apparently not, Barbara! LOL But I'm sure Det Spivey has it straight, and that's all that matters.

[5swab5]

Its easy for every one to blame the adult medicine on JY but remember the medicine was on a shelf in CY's room. MY lived in that house the medicine was there when she was alive. (snipped)


Sorry, but there is no way for you to know this. Jason could have very easily bought the Tylenol or PancofPD while he was out and about, gathering the rest of the paraphernalia for his "murder kit". MOO

[5swab5]

If you would slow down and read the July 2007 warrant more slowly, you will see that Spivey only uses the term "dropper" He never called it a "Tylenol dropper."

No need to use the July 2007 warrant, when we have the Feb. 2009 one. Page 19.

On May 29th, 2008 a court order for Cassidy Young's medical records was obtained. The reason for obtaining the records was to determine if PancofPD had ever been prescribed for Cassidy Young. As stated PancofPD is a medication that was located on a shelf in Cassidy Young's room on November 3rd, 2006. It and a bottle of Adult Extra Strength Tylenol were the only non-children's medications seen on the shelves. PancofPD is noteworthy because of it's possible sleep inducing side effects. A PancofPD dropper was also discovered on the shelves and was seized for additional testing.

[Barbara2]

Its easy for every one to blame the adult medicine on JY but remember the medicine was on a shelf in CY's room. <snipped>

Jason's mother told the detectives in Feb 2008 that Jason admitted that he gave Cassidy the adult cold medicine.

[freejason]

Its easy for every one to blame the adult medicine on JY but remember the medicine was on a shelf in CY's room. MY lived in that house the medicine was there when she was alive. So how do you know that wasn't the way MY gave medicine? I don't believe JY carried that medicine in there that night and just left it in plain view. Actually I don't believe JY was even there that night. So what I should have said is I don't believe the killer or killers took that medicine in there. So it's my assumption that MY knew the medicine was there and I'm sure if her daughter needed it she also gave it. Maybe LE would be so kind as to tell the insiders who's prints was on the bottle and dropper. I noticed the warrant didn't have that information. There are people here that talk to LE they have stated they know things about the case they can't tell us but also state LE knows these things . So I wish they would tell us who's prints was found on the bottles.

WHY is it so hard to believe that, although Jason did a pretty good job with this slaying and not leaving clues........this dropper may be the one achilles heal for him? He had a lot on his mind that night.....shoes, clothes, a lot of blood that he hadn't originally planned on, getting back to the hotel, taking a shower.......he just may have completely forgotten the medicine dropper. I find it downright impossible to believe that MY would have left that adult medicine in her daughter's room. I don't believe that it was ever there when she was alive.
The dropper is his downfall.

[caffeinated]

Well if you are correct we should see an arrest soon. We really won't know if that medicine was usually kept in CY's room till trial. I'm sure if it was there will be witnesses to that effect. What I can't figure out is why if LE has such a good case on JY they are going after every email he has written or recieved since the murder. Do they expect a confession in one of those emails? Does anyone think since JY's email addy was reported on line years ago that he recieved some emails that might not look to good on the person that sent them? Wouldn't it be unreal if those emails cast a bad light on someone else? Maybe the real murderer.

They will cast a bad light on the real murderer, they are the real murderer's email accounts they keep looking at.

[caffeinated]

Thats the concluusion you have come to. I haven't seen that proven in a court of law nor have you. So until that happens it isn't a fact. No matter how many times you post it as fact it isn't.

Guess I should have used the term SLAYER, that has been proven in a court of law. You have seen that ruling and so has everyone else. MO and Judge Stephens also.

[5swab5]

They will cast a bad light on the real murderer, they are the real murderer's email accounts they keep looking at.

Speaking of a bad light...I just went back and looked, there are 18 SWs that we know of, related to Jason slayer Young. MOO

[caffeinated]

Speaking of a bad light...I just went back and looked, there are 18 SWs that we know of, related to Jason slayer Young. MOO
Wonder how many we don't know about???

[alterEgo©]

I think there was discussion about this back some time ago. There is something about the contents of the car being part of the car and can be searched without a separate warrant. I don't know that they have to list it separately. I know that we were told that the family was upset because their luggage was in the car and therefore was "impounded" with the car. I do believe that they still had the car and luggage when they got the tape. IMO *Going to go look at the wording in the SW now.*

ETA: They viewed the security video on November 4th so they still had the luggage. IMO
Discussion or not, the luggage is not listed as 'items seized' like the medicines and laptops and keys are. I'm not questioning if they needed a seperate warrant to search the luggage, I'm questioning the fact that the luggage is not listed as 'items seized' and if in fact they ever searched the luggage for the shirt.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

It does make you wonder what they know about the gas but haven't shared. I would think that it would be a big deal, but the cops haven't said or leaked the first thing about it. It makes me think that they have that part of the puzzle figured out.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

The cops must know the distances between the different point that Jason traveled to. They probably have credit receipts for gas purchased and even video of him pumping the gas.

I would bet they have video of every gas station he would have passed along the way.

All they need to do is calculate the number of miles traveled and compare it to the amount of gas purchased. Then you will get a ballpark figure of the MPG. This can be compared to the expected MPG for a Ford Explorer. If it's within a gallon or so, no problem. If it's not within a couple of gallons them there is a problem. JMO :w00t:

[Stellagant]

18 warrants and no arrest. Does anybody but me think they are chasing the wrong dog? When does the warrants change from being a fact of looking for evidence and turn to harassment? What has been accomplished by these 18 warrants? We know he had an affair course a lot of people knew that before the warrant. We know LE has lost a shirt that JY was shown wearing in the motel. I'm assuming LE lost it they waited 15 months to look for it so I guess at one point they must have had it. We know somebody gave CY cough medicine at some point. Maybe a week before the murder or maybe a month before the murder. Who ever gave it was a dirty person every body I know always rinses out the dropper or medicine cups after they are used. We know MF goofed on where CY was and had to change her story. She couldn't have been clean walking around the house so she but her in bed the second time around. We also know MF goofed on where her keys were and had to change her story. Spivey said in light of this revelation MF said the keys on the counter must be MY's. Well MF had already given a statement that she put the keys on the counter so why did she have MY's keys? We know that months after the murder and after furniture had been moved to storage LE decided they should have tested the bed for evidence. The bed MY was attacked in wasn't checked for evidence for months after the murder and after it had been stored. This is an unbelievable moment. We know LE is looking for a size 10 Franklin shoe. We have seen no evidence JY ever owned a pair of Franklin shoes in any size. We have seen evidence where JY told his sister I'm doing what my attorney told me to do. If my wife turned up dead I would do the same thing. If you are smart people you would do the same. We know JY was in the motel just before midnight on the 2nd. we know Jy was past the motel going toward his meeting at 7:40 on the 3rd. LE hasn't proved to my opinion that he wasn't asleep in his room during those missing hours. I don't believe JY has to prove where he was I think that's LE's job. They have to prove in was in Raleigh I haven't seen any evidence toward that. The crazy idea that he was carrying around gas cans to make his gas purchase on the 3rd. be the exact amount he would need for the trip he had taken is in the very least ludicrous. I open to what you have taken as evidence from the 18 warrants. TIA

I think the latest warrants are written in such a way that implies LE is focused on Jason and only Jason. A closer reading shows that isn't the case. The Pancof medicine has little to no relevance. Not once does Spivey present a theory that he believes Jason administered the Pancof that night. That's another giant leap the same posters who also concluded silence = guilt have made.

LE is focused on someone who communicated with Jason after the murder. Someone who would give Tylenol to a small child in the mistaken belief it would make her drowsy. It's not too difficult to figure out exactly who that person is and to see the methodical way LE is building their case. JMO

[5swab5]

(snipped)We know LE has lost a shirt that JY was shown wearing in the motel. (snipped)

Geeze, no wonder you are having such a hard time with this case. The simplest of things escape you.

Pat said that Jason did not remove anything from his vehicle, LE took Jason's vehicle when they got back to Raleigh. The shirt was not there or on his back, therefore Jason did something with it. Why?

Of course, it is absolutely a possibility that Pat lied, like with the missing $500(IMO), but that just takes us straight back to Why. MOO.

[5swab5]

I think the latest warrants are written in such a way that implies LE is focused on Jason and only Jason. A closer reading shows that isn't the case. The Pancof medicine has little to no relevance. Not once does Spivey present a theory that he believes Jason administered the Pancof that night. That's another giant leap the same posters who also concluded silence = guilt have made.

LE is focused on someone who communicated with Jason after the murder. Someone who would give Tylenol to a small child in the mistaken belief it would make her drowsy. It's not too difficult to figure out exactly who that person is and to see the methodical way LE is building their case. JMO


It would appear that you need to read them again.

I suppose giving Meredith primary custody of Cassidy is all part of this vast ruse being perpetrated upon Jason, just to ruin his reputation, keep him unemployed and alienate everyone in the world that has ever known him? Get Real! MOO

[Stellagant]

Discussion or not, the luggage is not listed as 'items seized' like the medicines and laptops and keys are. I'm not questioning if they needed a seperate warrant to search the luggage, I'm questioning the fact that the luggage is not listed as 'items seized' and if in fact they ever searched the luggage for the shirt.

ITA. My opinion is that the luggage, purses, laptop case, briefcase, and everything else in that car was searched. Items seized were things that could possibly be tied to the murder. No shirts were seized. Even if it was there, it wouldn't be seized if it showed no evidence of a crime such as being torn or blood spattered because Jason would just turn it around and use absence of evidence to his advantage.

A prosecutor would be laughed right out of court if he tried to use a search for a shirt that took place more than a year later as evidence Jason wore the shirt and disposed of it. No surprise the DA hasn't chosen to take that route.

[Kat4Eagles]

The cops must know the distances between the different point that Jason traveled to. They probably have credit receipts for gas purchased and even video of him pumping the gas.

I would bet they have video of every gas station he would have passed along the way.

All they need to do is calculate the number of miles traveled and compare it to the amount of gas purchased. Then you will get a ballpark figure of the MPG. This can be compared to the expected MPG for a Ford Explorer. If it's within a gallon or so, no problem. If it's not within a couple of gallons them there is a problem. JMO :w00t:


Nope, but there is still a problem.

Something that they can not get past, over, under, around or through to get an arrest, an arrest some people think is a given.

There may be a 1, 000 things now that point to Jason's guilt or participation in this murder, but there may also be just 1 very significant thing that says he wasn't.

I am holding out hope that he was not involved, probably by a thread,with ony a handful of people in the world who still think he may be innocent.
But, those are the odds!

And, I did say I would defend him until if and when he was arrested, and there are still some more things that need to be figured out before I can reach the the same conclusion as held by the majority of the Board.

I would like to discuss some of these, and if the MY thread reopens, the latest s/w and the custody agreement need to be in the Links Thread.


Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I think the latest warrants are written in such a way that implies LE is focused on Jason and only Jason. A closer reading shows that isn't the case. The Pancof medicine has little to no relevance. Not once does Spivey present a theory that he believes Jason administered the Pancof that night. That's another giant leap the same posters who also concluded silence = guilt have made.

LE is focused on someone who communicated with Jason after the murder. Someone who would give Tylenol to a small child in the mistaken belief it would make her drowsy. It's not too difficult to figure out exactly who that person is and to see the methodical way LE is building their case. JMO

Hi Stella.:seeya:
Unless C was tested sometime later that day to see if she had any side effects or actual traces of the drug, what good does it do to suggest she was drugged without any proof to back it up?

Kat

[Stellagant]

It would appear that you need to read them again.

I suppose giving Meredith primary custody of Cassidy is all part of this vast ruse being perpetrated upon Jason, just to ruin his reputation, keep him unemployed and alienate everyone in the world that has ever known him? Get Real! MOO

Jason didn't "give" anything to Meredith. He agreed to it. He's the one who still has parental rights. Meredith has none and she doesn't have physical custody of the child yet.

Hard to believe after all the allegations the Fishers made, including a request for a psych exam, that before Jason even responded Meredith agreed to only share custody and Linda Fisher agreed to no custody. Appears to me they were more worried about their own reputations. Those two threw their stones at Jason and then retreated big time. JMO

[Stellagant]

Hi Stella.:seeya:
Unless C was tested sometime later that day to see if she had any side effects or actual traces of the drug, what good does it do to suggest she was drugged without any proof to back it up?

Kat

Hi, Kat. I think the intent was to create the impression LE is focused on Jason and only Jason in the hope the killer will let down her guard and say something.

[Tia]

It would appear that you need to read them again.

I suppose giving Meredith primary custody of Cassidy is all part of this vast ruse being perpetrated upon Jason, just to ruin his reputation, keep him unemployed and alienate everyone in the world that has ever known him? Get Real! MOO


IMO, its only a matter of time now before the slayer is arrested for the brutal murder of Michelle and Rylan. Its all winding down now.

[5swab5]

(snipped)
And, I did say I would defend him until if and when he was arrested, and there are still some more things that need to be figured out before I can reach the the same conclusion as held by the majority of the Board.(snipped)Kat

I thought you said that you wouldn't be able to support Jason, if he didn't fight for Cassidy?

I guess since he just gave away primary custody, in order to avoid a psych exam and a deposition, you are technically within your statement. Sorry excuse for a father, but what could I expect out of a slayer? MOO

[5swab5]

Jason didn't "give" anything to Meredith. He agreed to it. He's the one who still has parental rights. Meredith has none and she doesn't have physical custody of the child yet. (snipped) JMO

From Michelle and Rylan's deaths up until a few weeks ago, Meredith and Linda had to resign themselves to seeing Cassidy when and only when Jason deemed it so.

Now Meredith will be taking care of Cassidy for roughly 300 days a year, if that isn't a gift...I don't know what is. MOO

[5swab5]

Hi, Kat. I think the intent was to create the impression LE is focused on Jason and only Jason in the hope the killer will let down her guard and say something.

I am so sure that part of this scam, was Jason telling his mother that HE diluted adult medicine for Cassidy. "Oh, what tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive". MOO

[Kat4Eagles]

I thought you said that you wouldn't be able to support Jason, if he didn't fight for Cassidy?

I guess since he just gave away primary custody, in order to avoid a psych exam and a deposition, you are technically within your statement. Sorry excuse for a father, but what could I expect out of a slayer? MOO


The wording was that I would have a more difficult time defending him, if he were not to fight for C.

But, it has always been made difficult for me or anyone else here that has been waiting for more evidence to come out, before we judged him.

I have to agree with all the reasons I have read on the Board though, as to why Jason did not fight harder.
There aren't many plausible reasons, excuses and explanations in the world to defend him on that.

The only possible thing I can think of is that maybe he didn't want to continue the arguing, maybe he is worn out from all the accusations, or maybe he is just tired of fighting the inevitable.

At any rate, I was disappointed in the decision, and I think C was okay where she was, and that this will be very traumatic for her.

I think, that if everyone, is so sure an arrest is coming, why not wait until it happened and then place C somewhere permanent?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Hi Tiny!

I think the handling and timing of this case was strategically planned, much of it with Cassidy in mind. I feel confident it will progress rapidly, resulting in the arrest, indictment and conviction of JY.

IMO
<snipped>



Not true, L E doesn't wait for special times or dates to arrest someone, especially, if they can prove they committed murder.

They could have very easily arranged to arrest Jason without C being around, a million times by now.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Tomorrow, Michelle would have celebrated her 32nd Birthday.

:rose:

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Looks like Interstate #77 for his business trip

Raleigh to Hillsville........ 167 miles= 2 hours+ 46 minutes

Raleigh to Clintwood..... 306 miles = 5 hours +25 miles

Hillsville to Wytheville.......29.7 miles=32 minutes

Clintwood to Brevard... 183 miles=3hours+39 minutes

Brevard to Raleigh.... 277 miles=4 hours+43 minutes

Is it a fact or rumor that he stopped at Duffield for gas around noon on the 3rd?


Clintwood to Duffield........44.6 miles= 55 minutes

Duffield to Brevard...........139 miles=2 hours+44 minutes
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Hillsville to Wytheville.......29.7 miles=32 minutes

I was going somewhere with this.

The phonecall at 7:40 am was picked up from a cell tower
southwest of Wytheville.

This would have to place Jason back in the vicinity of Hillsville close to
7:10 am to 7:15 am.

I see the timeline getting more and more scrunched for Jason to have done all the things necessary in Raleigh to be back there at this time.

But, it does leave 7 hours of an open timeline.
Almost 6 of them were spent driving though.

So that leaves 1 hour in which he supposedly killed Michelle, drugged C, took care of Mr. G, got a shower, got rid of anything incriminating, cleaned out the car,made it look like a robbery, put on 2 different size shoes, and walked out the door.

This possible timeline becomes more impossible.

Kat

[BSNBREVARDNC]

LE waits 15 months to look for the shirt. Any good defense attorney worth a grain of salt is gonna wonder and ask why. They where supposed to have all the luggage from his trip and they don't discover for 15 months they haven't got a certain shirt. Give me a break its my opinion LE had that shirt and they are the ones that misplaced it. Happens all the time. They had to know on at least the 4th of Nov. what shirt he was wearing so they locate it. Then 15 months later they are getting their evidence together and its gone. Now maybe they returned it to JY when they returned his clothes or maybe its laying around somewhere in the police evidence room. Why would LE wait 15 months to look for an item that's important if they didn't think they already had it?

I've looked at the search warrants in a different way. I've kind of seen them as LE's way of communicating with a person that will not communicate with them. It's like they are little by little letting letting Jason know what they have on him.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Maybe so but what exactly do they have?

I feel like Jason and LE are the only one's that know. JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

I feel like Jason and LE are the only one's that know. JMO


Then, they are at a standoff.
Unless L E is trying to force a confession.

Jason would have to know at sometime all communications, such as phone records, emails, texting, etc would become public.

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I don't think LE has any evidence about the gas. I think JY's reciepts check out and that is something LE hasn't been able to get around. If LE had all this evidence about gas and putting rocks in a door etc JY would been at trial or at least in jail. LE wouldn't still be searching all his emails if they had concrete evidence he killed his wife. I say its time to start chasing another dog and get this case solved.


Confused, do we know exactly when the rock was found, or when it was removed? We really don't know who actually put it there, either.

This makes so sense that someone would prop a door open at midnite, and think it would still be that way, even after 3 hours.
(round trip to Raleigh)

Hotel guests come and go at all different times, that is why it is called a hotel....
Kat

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Then, they are at a standoff.
Unless L E is trying to force a confession.

Jason would have to know at sometime all communications, such as phone records, emails, texting, etc would become public.

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat

Those e-mails didn't seem to be too recent. So I don't think they protray current attitudes. If Jason trusted Mr. Fisher, and Mr. Fisher was feeding info to the cops, then who else might be feeding info to the cops that is trusted by Jason? I wonder if the cops recent visit to Brevard was a way of providing cover for that person? They talked to a lot of people so that meeting with a certain person would not look out of place. Maybe they plan on quoting a close friend so interviewing several friends helps give the talker a little bit of cover. I'm not saying this is a fact, it's just something to ponder.

You know, JMO, etc.:sneaky:

[Kat4Eagles]

You forgot a leg, also. What about Wytheville to Clintwood? 116 miles, 2 hours and 20 minutes according to Yahoo. And, we all know how much time gets added on to those. So, why did it take him 2 hours and 55 minutes to get there? 7:40 am phone call until 10:35 arrival at the hospital...

And, I recently saw a list of several speeding tickets JY has gotten, so I believe your estimated times above may be too high.

If you look only at your Raleigh to Clintwood -- which is what the path would have been after leaving Birchleaf IF he didn't go back to the hotel. It is 5 hours, 25 minutes (and that is being liberal for time). If the paper delivery person saw a vehicle at the home between 4 - 5 am and they appeared to be loading something....just assume for a second they were getting ready to leave. Let's assume 4:30 smack inthe middle. Add 5 hours and 25 minutes on -- that would be 9:55 am in Clintwood. But, the next time we absolutely know for JY is 7:40 ping in Wytheville. Wytheville is 192 miles, 3 hours and 14 minutes from Raleigh. 4:30 am plus 3 hours and 14 minutes (again, liberal driving time) -- that would be 7:44 am. Wow, that is within 4 minutes of the actual ping....


Do you think maybe he stopped to eat or get gas?

He had to at some point.

Kat

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Do you think maybe he stopped to eat or get gas?

He had to at some point.

Kat

Do Hampton Inn's have free buffets?

If he stopped to get gas there would be a record. Most sales people need to show receipts or credit card records to get reimbursed. It's those records that may bite him if the MPG doesn't add up to the miles he was supposed to have traveled. I wonder if he has thought of that? I wonder if the cops have thought of it?

I would think that he would have needed to have submitted something to his employer about his mileage also. I wonder if the cops have copies of these records? JMO

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Would you stop to eat knowing you would be late? Most people wouldn't. First impressions are everything. A drive through doesn't take 35 minutes either..

I forgot about receipts for food. He would have them to turn in as well.

[Barbara2]

Do Hampton Inn's have free buffets?

If he stopped to get gas there would be a record. Most sales people need to show receipts or credit card records to get reimbursed. It's those records that may bite him if the MPG doesn't add up to the miles he was supposed to have traveled. I wonder if he has thought of that? I wonder if the cops have thought of it?

I would think that he would have needed to have submitted something to his employer about his mileage also. I wonder if the cops have copies of these records? JMO

How much gas was left in Michelle's car? He could have siphoned her gas. (Rhetorical question. I realize that no one here knows the answer.)

[jerry50]

Then, they are at a standoff.
Unless L E is trying to force a confession.

Jason would have to know at sometime all communications, such as phone records, emails, texting, etc would become public.

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat

If JY is not scared then why did he rollover and give up his sole constitutional right of caring for his daughter? He gained nothing in that settlement no matter how many ways the JII's want to spin it.

If he is not scared then is he gainfully employed? And if he is not employed is he actively looking?

[BSNBREVARDNC]

If JY is not scared then why did he rollover and give up his sole constitutional right of caring for his daughter? He gained nothing in that settlement no matter how many ways the JII's want to spin it.

If he is not scared then is he gainfully employed? And if he is not employed is he actively looking?

Good point. I would need to be pretty scared to give up my child. But, I'm not Jason Young. Maybe he has a lower threshold for fear that I do. JMO

[5swab5]

LE waits 15 months to look for the shirt. Any good defense attorney worth a grain of salt is gonna wonder and ask why. They where supposed to have all the luggage from his trip and they don't discover for 15 months they haven't got a certain shirt. Give me a break its my opinion LE had that shirt and they are the ones that misplaced it. Happens all the time. They had to know on at least the 4th of Nov. what shirt he was wearing so they locate it. Then 15 months later they are getting their evidence together and its gone. Now maybe they returned it to JY when they returned his clothes or maybe its laying around somewhere in the police evidence room. Why would LE wait 15 months to look for an item that's important if they didn't think they already had it?


At that same time, they looked for the wedding rings, engagement ring, bracelet, pearls, etc., surely you wouldn't suggest that LE lost those too?

How about they know that the "theft" of the rings was an inside job. I'm sure they have seen staged crime scenes before. MOO

[5swab5]

Then, they are at a standoff.
Unless L E is trying to force a confession.

Jason would have to know at sometime all communications, such as phone records, emails, texting, etc would become public.

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat

Thinking that all the attention would die down and no one would remember his name, sounds like he had given it a lot of thought. Little does he know how MANY people will always remember Raven Abaroa's name.

Too bad he didn't decide to emulate Mark Hacking instead. MOO

[5swab5]

Do you think maybe he stopped to eat or get gas?

He had to at some point.

Kat

If he wasn't too upset to eat, which obviously he wasn't, since he was talking to his squeeze on the phone, I would guess that he got something once he was back in VA on the way to his meeting.

Of course, there is always the possibility, that he stopped and paid cash for gas at a convenience store the night before and grabbed an RC Cola and a moon pie. MOO

[Cardinal]

If he wasn't too upset to eat, which obviously he wasn't, since he was talking to his squeeze on the phone, I would guess that he got something once he was back in VA on the way to his meeting.

Of course, there is always the possibility, that he stopped and paid cash for gas at a convenience store the night before and grabbed an RC Cola and a moon pie. MOO

An RC Cola and a moon pie? ROTFL It has been a while since I've heard that!

He had what appeared to be a bottle of water in his hand on the hotel video. Aren't there vending machines off the lobby? For that matter, I'm sure there was food in the kitchen at Birchleaf.

[Cardinal]

~snipped for emphasis~

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat


Hi, Kat. :seeya: Your absence has been noted :D

I question his confident tone in those emails, too, although probably for a different reason than you. Even if Jason is innocent, I would think he'd be just a bit concerned about knowing he's the focus of LE's investigation.

[Stellagant]

Then, they are at a standoff.
Unless L E is trying to force a confession.

Jason would have to know at sometime all communications, such as phone records, emails, texting, etc would become public.

I guess my biggest question then, is why isn't he scared?

In his emails to Kim and Alan, his attitude seems to almost dismiss them and their concerns.

Kat

imo, he doesn't dismiss them, he tries to explain he's been instructed not to discuss it.

If I were innocent, I wouldn't be scared of what my sister or FIL thought.

[Leanne Weich]

I don't know if this has been posted as I don't have time to read all the posts now as we've just moved and I'm trying to unpack. Final leg of the WDS to be decided;

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/4549389/

[Barbara2]

imo, he doesn't dismiss them, he tries to explain he's been instructed not to discuss it.

If I were innocent, I wouldn't be scared of what my sister or FIL thought.

If you were innocent you probably wouldn't give up any part of custody of your child either. IMO

[jerry50]

I don't know if this has been posted as I don't have time to read all the posts now as we've just moved and I'm trying to unpack. Final leg of the WDS to be decided;

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/4549389/


Thanks, Leeann. That is news.

Did anyone else notice that the story says that Jason Young has been named a suspect in his wife's death?

[5swab5]

(snip)

If I were innocent, I wouldn't be scared of what my sister or FIL thought.

If I were innocent, I would have already cleared this whole thing up. IF it wasn't cleared up, I would be on every talk show in the land and screaming it from the rooftops.

I would not be unemployed, ostracized from society in general, mooching and vegetating in Brevard, AND I dadgum well wouldn't give up my daughter to maintain my silence. MOO

[Leanne Weich]

Thanks, Leeann. That is news.

Did anyone else notice that the story says that Jason Young has been named a suspect in his wife's death?

I sure did and, in another article which came out about the custody case, it also said he'd ben named a suspect.

[achristie]

Jason's mother told the detectives in Feb 2008 that Jason admitted that he gave Cassidy the adult cold medicine.

I was quite surprised when I read that. Was Mrs. Young aware of how this would impact on the investigation? Why would her son volunteer such information when he vowed not to discuss anything about the case? Hoping those that have followed every detail will weigh in on this. Are we to believe that he just casually mentioned this to his mother?

[achristie]

Thats the concluusion you have come to. I haven't seen that proven in a court of law nor have you. So until that happens it isn't a fact. No matter how many times you post it as fact it isn't.

In that case, one would assume we should discount many of the things you have posted about MY's mother and sister.

MOO Aggie

[achristie]

I think the latest warrants are written in such a way that implies LE is focused on Jason and only Jason. A closer reading shows that isn't the case. The Pancof medicine has little to no relevance. Not once does Spivey present a theory that he believes Jason administered the Pancof that night. That's another giant leap the same posters who also concluded silence = guilt have made.

LE is focused on someone who communicated with Jason after the murder. Someone who would give Tylenol to a small child in the mistaken belief it would make her drowsy. It's not too difficult to figure out exactly who that person is and to see the methodical way LE is building their case. JMO

Talk about giant leaps. And now LE is methodical in your opinion? Are you now praising Detective Spivey? Am I in the twilight zone?
I disagree. The pancof theory has huge relevance.

MOO Aggie

[achristie]

Do you think maybe he stopped to eat or get gas?

He had to at some point.

Kat

Pondering this just gives me the willies. Stopping for gas is one thing. Stopping to eat after you have brutally beaten your wife to death?

MOO Aggie

[Stellagant]

Do we even know for sure if LE was in Brevard recently? Remember months ago the rumors went around the boards of LE being in Brevard and nothing came of it.

I sure hope it's true, though. Since the trip didn't result in an arrest, it's very possible it was for witness preparation of CY's therapist, teachers, etc.

[Stellagant]

Unless they can prove CY was given any medicine the night of the murder I don't see what revelance that pancof has. If they can prove she was given the medicine then they have to prove who gave it. Since they don't seem to be able to put JY in Raleigh I don't see how they can prove he did.

There is no pancof "theory" anywhere but on Internet message forums. Maybe Spivey was throwing harmless crumbs to the cybersleuthers who didn't bother to read the sealed warrant? :lol:

[jerzeegirl]

I think CY is ok where she is but I also don't think the move will hurt her any more that she's already been hurt. This arrangement will give the McIntyre's a break and JY can get a place of his own. I really think its a win win situation. MF can take care of CY and the Young family still get to visit her. That should end the CY feud. It was never going to end otherwise.

wow, the mcintyres need a break from cassidy?? JY can get a place of his own? JY could have moved into a place of his own with cassidy whenever he wanted to. Your post comes off as if Cassidy is a burden to her father and his family members.

[alterEgo©]

If JY is not scared then why did he rollover and give up his sole constitutional right of caring for his daughter? He gained nothing in that settlement no matter how many ways the JII's want to spin it.

If he is not scared then is he gainfully employed? And if he is not employed is he actively looking?
He lost his constitutionally protected status when he was ruled a slayer.

[alterEgo©]

Thanks, Leeann. That is news.

Did anyone else notice that the story says that Jason Young has been named a suspect in his wife's death?Isn't that what Spivey put on a SW...that Jason was their 'prime suspect'?

Isn't the same as 'publically naming' one?

Spivey is baiting Jason. That's what I think. I just can't figure out why Spivey just doesn't arrest him.

[Leanne Weich]

Isn't that what Spivey put on a SW...that Jason was their 'prime suspect'?

Isn't the same as 'publically naming' one?

Spivey is baiting Jason. That's what I think. I just can't figure out why Spivey just doesn't arrest him.

I'd guess it's probably Colin Willoughby that's the hold-up, for whatever reason. Something he just isn't sure of. I'm sure if the final decision was up to Spivey, Jason would have been arrested long ago. It will be interesting to see what comes out about the investigation once JY or, if you believe he is innocent, whoever is arrested.

[Kat4Eagles]

I think CY is ok where she is but I also don't think the move will hurt her any more that she's already been hurt. This arrangement will give the McIntyre's a break and JY can get a place of his own. I really think its a win win situation. MF can take care of CY and the Young family still get to visit her. That should end the CY feud. It was never going to end otherwise.


Yes, but another thing to think about is that CY will be moving back to Raleigh, close to the area where her Mom was murdered.

She is more apt to hear rumors about what happened, as she begins school, etc.

I don't understand why the change in custody could not wait for the arrest, if one is going to happen.

And, I certainly am not excusing Jason in his failure to fight for her, there are more and more things coming out that can not be explained or excused about Jason anymore.

:(

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Those e-mails didn't seem to be too recent. So I don't think they protray current attitudes. If Jason trusted Mr. Fisher, and Mr. Fisher was feeding info to the cops, then who else might be feeding info to the cops that is trusted by Jason? I wonder if the cops recent visit to Brevard was a way of providing cover for that person? They talked to a lot of people so that meeting with a certain person would not look out of place. Maybe they plan on quoting a close friend so interviewing several friends helps give the talker a little bit of cover. I'm not saying this is a fact, it's just something to ponder.

You know, JMO, etc.:sneaky:

Yeah, this is another thing .
I think Jason owed Alan at least that much to try and reassure him that he had nothing to do with Michelle's death.
Alan needed at least that much.
This kinda reminds me how the Rochas backed Scott until learning about AF.
The same thing seems to have happened here.
The shrine, Alan talks about, I could understand, maybe it was too painful for Jason to deal with.
But, still no excuse for Jason.
I am wondering why the relationship was so bad with Michelle and June.
Sounds like there were a lot of issues Michelle was dealing with in her family,besides an unfaithful husband, and being pregnant.
:(
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Do Hampton Inn's have free buffets?

If he stopped to get gas there would be a record. Most sales people need to show receipts or credit card records to get reimbursed. It's those records that may bite him if the MPG doesn't add up to the miles he was supposed to have traveled. I wonder if he has thought of that? I wonder if the cops have thought of it?

I would think that he would have needed to have submitted something to his employer about his mileage also. I wonder if the cops have copies of these records? JMO


I think I remember in one of the Hampton Inn sites, they advertised Breakfast in a Bag...I am not sure where I saw that though.

But, in order for Jason to have been back @ the Hampton Inn, how did he get back in?


Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Would you stop to eat knowing you would be late? Most people wouldn't. First impressions are everything. A drive through doesn't take 35 minutes either..


If you believe Jason killed Michelle, I would think he was stopping along the road to be sick a lot.

His phonecall to MM is astounding to me too, I wonder if he waited for SM to go to work first before calling?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Hi, Kat. :seeya: Your absence has been noted :D

I question his confident tone in those emails, too, although probably for a different reason than you. Even if Jason is innocent, I would think he'd be just a bit concerned about knowing he's the focus of LE's investigation.

Hi Card, :D
A lot of catching up, but I am getting there.
There are so many things I was wrong about though.
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Isn't that what Spivey put on a SW...that Jason was their 'prime suspect'?

Isn't the same as 'publically naming' one?

Spivey is baiting Jason. That's what I think. I just can't figure out why Spivey just doesn't arrest him.


Hey AE!!

Primary suspect, although I noticed the word "only" was not used.

I can only imagine how bad he wants this arrest, I watched this show where it told about how detectives working and following a case closely, can get very emotionally invested and involved without realizing it.

A detective feels he owes justice to the victim. and rightfully so.

Kat

[5swab5]

If you believe Jason killed Michelle, I would think he was stopping along the road to be sick a lot.

His phonecall to MM is astounding to me too, I wonder if he waited for SM to go to work first before calling?

Kat

With 50 phone calls/text messages between Jason and MMoney on the 2nd, they should have been synchronized.

I doubt Jason has thrown up, til this day. Most husbands that erase their wives are euphoric, they feel as if the weight of the world has been lifted from their shoulders. Evidenced by Jason calling MM, as SOON as he was able. MOO

[Kat4Eagles]

With 50 phone calls/text messages between Jason and MMoney on the 2nd, they should have been synchronized.

I doubt Jason has thrown up, til this day. Most husbands that erase their wives are euphoric, they feel as if the weight of the world has been lifted from their shoulders. Evidenced by Jason calling MM, as SOON as he was able. MOO


It is behavior, that is hard, if not impossible to defend. I agree!!
But, an arrest, months, years ago would have solved all this.
It still always goes back to the same q....why no arrest?
Look at the things that have come out.
And, yet something is still not adding up.

Kat

[5swab5]

It is behavior, that is hard, if not impossible to defend. I agree!!
But, an arrest, months, years ago would have solved all this.
It still always goes back to the same q....why no arrest?
Look at the things that have come out.
And, yet something is still not adding up.

Kat

I keep thinking that Willoughby is a perfectionist of sorts. Pedantic to a fault even.

I am hoping that all this extra time amounts to a 1st degree charge and conviction. It would be a shame to wait all this time and not get real justice for Michelle and Rylan.MOO

[Jester]

Hi, Kat. :seeya: Your absence has been noted :D

I question his confident tone in those emails, too, although probably for a different reason than you. Even if Jason is innocent, I would think he'd be just a bit concerned about knowing he's the focus of LE's investigation.

In those emails, he also said that he hoped there would be no arrested for the murder. That may sound like confidence to some, but to me it sounds like a guilty man hoping that his luck doesn't run out.

[Jester]

Yes, but another thing to think about is that CY will be moving back to Raleigh, close to the area where her Mom was murdered.

She is more apt to hear rumors about what happened, as she begins school, etc.

I don't understand why the change in custody could not wait for the arrest, if one is going to happen.

And, I certainly am not excusing Jason in his failure to fight for her, there are more and more things coming out that can not be explained or excused about Jason anymore.

:(

Kat

Interesting that you are seeing some of the problems with Jason's actions. Other than not making any attempt to retain primary custody of his daughter, what else to you see as problematic?

[Kat4Eagles]

Interesting that you are seeing some of the problems with Jason's actions. Other than not making any attempt to retain primary custody of his daughter, what else to you see as problematic?


Hi Jester:
I wouldn't mind seeing Jason or his attorney issue a statement refuting some of the things in the s/w's.

That would help if they addressed some of these issues, instead of letting them just sit out here.
The only thing else I can think of is maybe Jason is covering up for someone and that is the reason for his remaining silent.

Things I don't see though, are pre~med, drugging of CY, or any motive other than the rage the killer had in that moment.

Kat

[Jester]

If you believe Jason killed Michelle, I would think he was stopping along the road to be sick a lot.

His phonecall to MM is astounding to me too, I wonder if he waited for SM to go to work first before calling?

Kat

I think he was relaxed, calm, and relieved that the tension of the marriage was done.

"Finally, in a review of spousal homicide literature, Dutton (2002) suggested that a large percentage of SOCIAL AND PHYSICAL PAIN 215 perpetrators of spousal homicide experience a catathymic crisis, or aversive emotional tension that is perceived as inescapable and caused by the spouse. Thus, aggression against romantic partners by individuals who are emotionally dependent on the relationship may be motivated by a desire for control similar to that demonstrated with physical pain-elicited aggression."

http://www2.uni-jena.de/svw/igc/studies/ss04/MacDonald_Leary_2005_PB.pdf

"Meloy (1992) describes catathymic violence as "delineated by intense autonomic arousal, overwhelming anger during the violence, the perception of the victim as an imminent threat to the ego structure of the perpetrator, a time limited behavioral sequence, and a goal of threat reduction and a return to homeostasis" (Meloy, 1992 p. 47). Revitch & Schlesinger (1981) described catathymic violence as having three stages; incubation, violent act, and relief. The incubation stage includes cognitions that are marked by an "obsessive preoccupation with the future victim" and affect states including depression, frustration, and helplessness. The victim is typically known to the perpetrator, and an emotional bond or attachment exists between them."

http://www.drdondutton.com/Papers/20%20personality%20profiles%20and%20modi%20operand i%20of%20spousal%20homicide%20perpetrators.html

"Typically, the perpetrator experiences some tension release during the violent act and subsequent relief." (same link as above)

There are several applications of the catathymic personality disorder, but in spousal homicides it appears to describe a process whereby the husband resents the wife over a period of time, commits murder that is clearly an overkill act of violence, and then who experiences a period of calm and relief immediately after the murder.

This accurately describes both the marriage, the murder, and Jason's demeanor after the murder.

[Jester]

Hi Jester:
I wouldn't mind seeing Jason or his attorney issue a statement refuting some of the things in the s/w's.

That would help if they addressed some of these issues, instead of letting them just sit out here.
The only thing else I can think of is maybe Jason is covering up for someone and that is the reason for his remaining silent.

Things I don't see though, are pre~med, drugging of CY, or any motive other than the rage the killer had in that moment.

Kat

I actually think it's too late for Jason to issue a statement to explain any of his decisions. For some reason, his lawyer advised him, on the day the murder was discovered, to remain silent. In his emails to Kim, he was satisfied with that advice and seemed pleased with the results. Even if he issued a statement today attempting to clarify his reasons for silence, and all the other decisions he's made over the last two years, and, in particular, the last 4 months, he would most likely do nothing more than create new questions. That is, it wouldn't help.

If Jason is covering up for someone murdering his wife and unborn child, then he is also guilty.

Cassidy was most likely medicated so she would relax and rest. With the bloody footprints at some point in the house, perhaps only in the bedroom, we know she discovered her murdered mother. She would have been tremendously upset or concerned, and the medication may have helped her sleep while Jason went to his meeting.

Pre-meditation is the rage and anger that Jason was building over the months leading to the murder. The rage that Jason experienced is typical of spousal homicides.

[Jester]

It is behavior, that is hard, if not impossible to defend. I agree!!
But, an arrest, months, years ago would have solved all this.
It still always goes back to the same q....why no arrest?
Look at the things that have come out.
And, yet something is still not adding up.

Kat

The prosecutor wants to have confidence that he can obtain a conviction on first degree murder, and is not willing to settle for second degree. That, in my opinion, is what is taking more time. I don't think it's that unusual for a prosecutor to take his or her time in preparing a solid case. They keep going back to a unsolved cases, usually with stacks of them on their desk that need attention. Slowly, and methodically, they put it together. I would rather give the prosecutor's office the time they need, than see them jump the gun and end up with a weak case.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I think I remember in one of the Hampton Inn sites, they advertised Breakfast in a Bag...I am not sure where I saw that though.

But, in order for Jason to have been back @ the Hampton Inn, how did he get back in?


Kat

He could have walked right in the front door. In the morning people would have been coming and going, getting breakfast, taking luggage to their cars, etc. I don't think he would have looked out of place just walking in and going up to his room.

[alterEgo©]

In those emails, he also said that he hoped there would be no arrested for the murder. That may sound like confidence to some, but to me it sounds like a guilty man hoping that his luck doesn't run out.
No he didn't. He said his ATTY hopes there won't be an arrest.

:read:

[alterEgo©]

anipped
There are several applications of the catathymic personality disorder, but in spousal homicides it appears to describe a process whereby the husband resents the wife over a period of time, commits murder that is clearly an overkill act of violence, and then who experiences a period of calm and relief immediately after the murder.

This accurately describes both the marriage, the murder, and Jason's demeanor after the murder.
I disagree. It's my opinion that the overkill was a result of the anger that manifested itself when the stragulation attempt failed.

[Tia]

I actually think it's too late for Jason to issue a statement to explain any of his decisions. For some reason, his lawyer advised him, on the day the murder was discovered, to remain silent. In his emails to Kim, he was satisfied with that advice and seemed pleased with the results. Even if he issued a statement today attempting to clarify his reasons for silence, and all the other decisions he's made over the last two years, and, in particular, the last 4 months, he would most likely do nothing more than create new questions. That is, it wouldn't help.

If Jason is covering up for someone murdering his wife and unborn child, then he is also guilty.

Cassidy was most likely medicated so she would relax and rest. With the bloody footprints at some point in the house, perhaps only in the bedroom, we know she discovered her murdered mother. She would have been tremendously upset or concerned, and the medication may have helped her sleep while Jason went to his meeting.

Pre-meditation is the rage and anger that Jason was building over the months leading to the murder. The rage that Jason experienced is typical of spousal homicides.


Initially, we asked the question "Why doesn't Jason make a statement through his attorneys?".

It was argued that it was his right to remain silent, which of course it is, but it sure would have changed public opinion had he said something, held a memorial, anything!

[5swab5]

No he didn't. He said his ATTY hopes there won't be an arrest.

:read:

I think it is safe to say that Jason doesn't relish the idea of an arrest. He knows exactly who will be wearing the silver bracelets.

He must also know that his little "innocent act" won't work on anyone except close family and friends, he never even TRIED to act interested in the investigation into Michelle and Rylan's murders. Completely opposite of what an innocent father and husband would do. MOO

[Stellagant]

Hi Jester:
I wouldn't mind seeing Jason or his attorney issue a statement refuting some of the things in the s/w's.

That would help if they addressed some of these issues, instead of letting them just sit out here.
The only thing else I can think of is maybe Jason is covering up for someone and that is the reason for his remaining silent.

Things I don't see though, are pre~med, drugging of CY, or any motive other than the rage the killer had in that moment.

Kat

Why would Jason's attorney address items in a search warrant at this point? How would it help? One thing that did come across to me is that Jason isn't paying any attention to the Internet.

[Stellagant]

I disagree. It's my opinion that the overkill was a result of the anger that manifested itself when the stragulation attempt failed.

I agree and it then goes back to the question, "why did the strangulation fail"?

[Leanne Weich]

I agree and it then goes back to the question, "why did the strangulation fail"?

It could be as simple as he/they/whoever, didn't realise how long it takes to strangle someone to death. Alternately, maybe Michelle broke away from the strangulation grip and put up a heck of a fight which made the murderer ferociously angry although, if the internet searches are anything to go by, a back up plan was in place, imo.

[kingbuff]

Maybe someone who knows can turn teacher and tell us more about a civil case hearing. No evidence against Jason to be presented...right? No jury....right? So, what will take two+ hours?

Why not just sent Jason a letter saying this is what I have decided. This is what you owe and this is how we will get it??? Or....I have dismissed the civil complaint against you due to lack of evidence that you killed your wife...??

According to my calculations, this is what Linda asked for in her WD lawsuit:

Plaintiff Linda as executrix of estate

1. compensation for pain and suffering $10,000 +
2. funeral expenses
3. punitive damages $10,000 +
4. costs of court + interest $$
5. other relief as ordered by judge

Cassie as beneficiary

1. Michelle's expected net income (est. $80,000 X 30 = $2,400,000) ??
2. Loss of mother's care $$
3. Loss of mother's guidance $$

[jerry50]

I agree and it then goes back to the question, "why did the strangulation fail"?

Even John Gacy had to "restrangle" some of his victims. A lot of times when the killer believes the victim is dead that is not the case. They are not dead and they can come back to conciousness. Many serial killers do this deliberately to their victim (bringing them back to conciousness) only to strangle them again and again.

JY more than likely thought she was dead and when she regained conciousness he went into a rage.

On another board there is a copy from the courthouse regarding the awarding of damages to Linda and it shows that JY does not have a lawyer.

[jerry50]

Yeah, this is another thing .
I think Jason owed Alan at least that much to try and reassure him that he had nothing to do with Michelle's death.
Alan needed at least that much.
This kinda reminds me how the Rochas backed Scott until learning about AF.
The same thing seems to have happened here.
The shrine, Alan talks about, I could understand, maybe it was too painful for Jason to deal with.
But, still no excuse for Jason.
I am wondering why the relationship was so bad with Michelle and June.
Sounds like there were a lot of issues Michelle was dealing with in her family,besides an unfaithful husband, and being pregnant.
:(
Kat

I think that JY is a poor liar and that is why he could never say to AF that he had nothing to do with Michelle's murder. And being a poor liar is because growing up he probably didn't have to lie because he was not held accountable for his actions or someone (overprotecting sister's) took the heat for him.
I have an only child and she is a very poor liar because she never had the experience of blaming something on siblings like most kids do. JMO

[5swab5]

[QUOTE=kingbuff;12795022](snipped)
Why not just sent Jason a letter saying this is what I have decided. This is what you owe and this is how we will get it??? (snipped)

Maybe they will. Can't get blood from a turnip, but at least he will NEVER profit from slaying Michelle and Rylan. Even tho his "ostrich stance" has already cost him dearly, I doubt he will show up for these proceedings. MOO

ETA, Hmm...not sure what happened to the quote function, my apologies.

[Jester]

I disagree. It's my opinion that the overkill was a result of the anger that manifested itself when the stragulation attempt failed.

You would be disagreeing with psychiatrists, not me. I posted links to psychiatric analysis of spousal homicide, and the reasons for extreme violence in murder. I have never read any studies stating that when one method of murder doesn't work, the murderer goes into a violent rage and bashes someone's head in more than 10 times. Have you?

[Jester]

I agree and it then goes back to the question, "why did the strangulation fail"?
The murder obviously included quite a struggle, and there are signs that Michelle was strangled, beaten on her arms, and beaten many, many times in her head. Is there any reason why you want to separate the strangulation hold from being hit in the head?

[Jester]

Even John Gacy had to "restrangle" some of his victims. A lot of times when the killer believes the victim is dead that is not the case. They are not dead and they can come back to conciousness. Many serial killers do this deliberately to their victim (bringing them back to conciousness) only to strangle them again and again.

JY more than likely thought she was dead and when she regained conciousness he went into a rage.

On another board there is a copy from the courthouse regarding the awarding of damages to Linda and it shows that JY does not have a lawyer.

I don't think there were two separate murder attempts. The strangulation marks are not made with a ligature, but rather (from what I recall) marks on her neck most likely made with Jason's hand. During the struggle and murder, Jason appears to have attempted to control Michelle by holding her neck. He was most likely holding her and hitting her at the same time.

[jerry50]

I don't think there were two separate murder attempts. The strangulation marks are not made with a ligature, but rather (from what I recall) marks on her neck most likely made with Jason's hand. During the struggle and murder, Jason appears to have attempted to control Michelle by holding her neck. He was most likely holding her and hitting her at the same time.

I do think there were two attempts at killing Michelle. I don't think that he could have hit her with as much force as he did while trying to control her with one hand.
I also don't think that JY had the intention of leaving Michelle in a bloody mess with Cassidy in the home.
Hopefully if he decides to save his Mother her life's savings he will take a plea and tell everyone what happened.

[Jester]

I do think there were two attempts at killing Michelle. I don't think that he could have hit her with as much force as he did while trying to control her with one hand.
I also don't think that JY had the intention of leaving Michelle in a bloody mess with Cassidy in the home.
Hopefully if he decides to save his Mother her life's savings he will take a plea and tell everyone what happened.

I'm assuming that the murder is premeditated. If that is true, then he had a method of murder in mind. If strangulation was the method, why didn't he have a ligature ... it would be much easier to wrap something around someone's neck and pull tight than to try to strangle using one's hands. There was a murder weapon that has not been found, and that is what he brought with him to commit the murder. That weapon was used to beat her upper body and head.

As for the force of the injuries, she could have been disabled with the first couple of hits to the head; something he could have done while squeezing her neck. Her hands would have been trying to release his hands from her neck. After the first couple of blows, he just kept going.

As for the life savings, hopefully Pat knows better than to pay for her unemployed, 30ish year old son's mistakes.

[5swab5]

I don't think there were two separate murder attempts. The strangulation marks are not made with a ligature, but rather (from what I recall) marks on her neck most likely made with Jason's hand. During the struggle and murder, Jason appears to have attempted to control Michelle by holding her neck. He was most likely holding her and hitting her at the same time.

I don't think there were technically two attempts. I think Jason left the hotel with a head of steam and a plan to get the job done, whatever it took. November 3rd was going to be the beginning of a new life for him, he was done.

There were approximately 980 phone calls/texts between Jason and MM from Oct. 4th to Nov.3rd, including 50 the day before the slaughter. He was already gone in his mind.

I don't know how all this happened, but I know how it will end up...two broken hearts...but, I don't care. I know there is pain in my future, but you are so worth it, even if it's only for a "blink" in time.

Yep, he was already movin' on. MOO

[achristie]

I don't think there were technically two attempts. I think Jason left the hotel with a head of steam and a plan to get the job done, whatever it took. November 3rd was going to be the beginning of a new life for him, he was done.

There were approximately 980 phone calls/texts between Jason and MM from Oct. 4th to Nov.3rd, including 50 the day before the slaughter. He was already gone in his mind.

I don't know how all this happened, but I know how it will end up...two broken hearts...but, I don't care. I know there is pain in my future, but you are so worth it, even if it's only for a "blink" in time.

Yep, he was already movin' on. MOO

Just reading that gives me the chills. How could he not consider his little girl's broken heart? One would surmise he had no longing to see his new baby born, either. How must his family feel when they read this stuff?

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

I think it is safe to say that Jason doesn't relish the idea of an arrest. He knows exactly who will be wearing the silver bracelets.

He must also know that his little "innocent act" won't work on anyone except close family and friends, he never even TRIED to act interested in the investigation into Michelle and Rylan's murders. Completely opposite of what an innocent father and husband would do. MOO
completely opposite, huh.

Well then, I guess Susan Smith is innocent since she did what you say an innocent would do. And Scott Peterson. And Jeffrey MacDonald... and all the other killers who did what you say an innocent person would do.

Will you be filing an amicus curiae brief on their behalf detailing this exonerating evidence?

[tiny paw-prints]

Hi Tiny!

I think the handling and timing of this case was strategically planned, much of it with Cassidy in mind. I feel confident it will progress rapidly, resulting in the arrest, indictment and conviction of JY.

IMO

It's great to see you!!!

Hello dear friend! I very much agree with you, of course! Although, it's possible the new custody/visitation issues agreed upon might proceed for a while without any arrest to see how "things" go; if JY is amicable, receptive, cooperative in the "best interest of the child". With some passage of time, the new arrangement might reveal some very pertinent additional investigative info.

In my own case (many moons ago), I was thoroughly disappointed in the temporary "arrangement" and believe it or not, the temporary custody/visitation issues became very ugly, but the passage of time with investigative documentation revealed the reality and truth of the "underlying" issues.

Always good to "see" you!

[alterEgo©]

I'm assuming that the murder is premeditated. If that is true, then he had a method of murder in mind. If strangulation was the method, why didn't he have a ligature ... it would be much easier to wrap something around someone's neck and pull tight than to try to strangle using one's hands. There was a murder weapon that has not been found, and that is what he brought with him to commit the murder. That weapon was used to beat her upper body and head.

snipped

How do you know the murder weapon has not been found?

[alterEgo©]

You would be disagreeing with psychiatrists, not me. I posted links to psychiatric analysis of spousal homicide, and the reasons for extreme violence in murder. I have never read any studies stating that when one method of murder doesn't work, the murderer goes into a violent rage and bashes someone's head in more than 10 times. Have you?
In order for your links to have relevance in this case, the analysis has to apply to the known facts in this case.

And, IMO, they do not.

So, no, I'm not disagreeing with psychiatrists - I'm disagreeing with your application of their findings to this case.

And yes, I have heard of cases where a strangulation attempt failed that sent the perp into a rage. BTK is one of them.

[tiny paw-prints]

Not true, L E doesn't wait for special times or dates to arrest someone, especially, if they can prove they committed murder.

They could have very easily arranged to arrest Jason without C being around, a million times by now.

Kat

I disagree, Kat! And, "a million times by now" is another perfect example of your over-exaggeration while following this case since the night of Michelle and Ryan's murder. I believe the entire case and it's investigation is a very fragile and sensitive one; for several reasons! By and through my own personal experience and those of many others--none of which I choose to debate or discuss with you at this juncture.

But I'll at least share this much with you. My best friend's long time friend's husband died. The couple were both retired with grown children, his funeral was last week with many mourners, his wife of nearly 40+ years learned for the first time that her husband was gay and never knew it. I'm somewhat shaken by the reality of this news, so please forgive me. Apparently, this woman's husband was able to conceal his secret from her without her ever suspecting. One has to wonder what would have happened during their marriage if his secret was revealed or exposed.

I'm sure the therapist in this case has some revealing info regarding the Young marriage. The trial of this case will be very enlightening to many. IMO

[alterEgo©]

Maybe someone who knows can turn teacher and tell us more about a civil case hearing. No evidence against Jason to be presented...right? No jury....right? So, what will take two+ hours?

Why not just sent Jason a letter saying this is what I have decided. This is what you owe and this is how we will get it??? Or....I have dismissed the civil complaint against you due to lack of evidence that you killed your wife...??

According to my calculations, this is what Linda asked for in her WD lawsuit:

Plaintiff Linda as executrix of estate

1. compensation for pain and suffering $10,000 +
2. funeral expenses
3. punitive damages $10,000 +
4. costs of court + interest $$
5. other relief as ordered by judge

Cassie as beneficiary

1. Michelle's expected net income (est. $80,000 X 30 = $2,400,000) ??
2. Loss of mother's care $$
3. Loss of mother's guidance $$
Jason's assets were more than likely frozen pending final adjudication of the WD suit.

Juries typically have a wide berth in determining the amt of compensatory damages and assigning a $ value to the plaintiff's pain and suffering. I can't find any specific formula or guideline for making that determination in NC.

Punitive damages - those that assign $ value as punishment, however, are covered by statute:

§ 1D‑25. Limitation of amount of recovery.
(b) Punitive damages awarded against a defendant shall not exceed three times the amount of compensatory damages or two hundred fifty thousand dollars ($250,000), whichever is greater. If a trier of fact returns a verdict for punitive damages in excess of the maximum amount specified under this subsection, the trial court shall reduce the award and enter judgment for punitive damages in the maximum amount.
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_1d/gs_1d-25.html

[alterEgo©]

I disagree, Kat! And, "a million times by now" is another perfect example of your over-exaggeration while following this case since the night of Michelle and Ryan's murder. I believe the entire case and it's investigation is a very fragile and sensitive one; for several reasons! By and through my own personal experience and those of many others--none of which I choose to debate or discuss with you at this juncture.


snipped

. IMO
It's not an exaggeration.

And I agree, the investigation is 'fragile'. It could implode at any time and leave Michelle's murder unsolved.:angry:

Too bad so many stupid mistakes have been make in the investigation rendering it 'fragile'.

[Jester]

How do you know the murder weapon has not been found?

I think I read it somewhere. Let me see.

"Wake County officials are still looking for the weapon used in the murder of Michelle Young - this after a possible lead turned up void.

On April 4, a neighbor found a mallet on the front lawn of the home where someone murdered 29-year-old Young last fall.

City-County Bureau of Identification officials analyzed the mallet for blood, but they said yesterday they don't believe the mallet played a role in her death.

No one has been named or arrested in this case. "

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5265625
Wednesday, May 02, 2007

[Jester]

In order for your links to have relevance in this case, the analysis has to apply to the known facts in this case.

And, IMO, they do not.

So, no, I'm not disagreeing with psychiatrists - I'm disagreeing with your application of their findings to this case.

And yes, I have heard of cases where a strangulation attempt failed that sent the perp into a rage. BTK is one of them.

I don't think so. Psychiatrists have studied the psychological patterns and behaviors of murderers for a very long time. When respected, published psychiatrists draw conclusions about spousal homicides, describing an incubation period, a violent act, and then relief, they know of which they speak.

Incubation, violent act, and relief describes exactly what happened in Michelle's murder. Only Jason can tell us the facts, but it could be assumed that during his fling with MM he was in the incubation period. There's no question about the violent act, and there must have been a lot of relief for him to phone mom 28 times the morning after the murder and sound normal.

BTK did not have a violent rage and bash someone's head in 10-20 times. He strangled his victims, maybe shot one when he thought he would get caught. He liked to bind people and torture them by partially strangling them. Then he would kill them by strangling them.

[kingbuff]

I think I read it somewhere. Let me see.

"Wake County officials are still looking for the weapon used in the murder of Michelle Young - this after a possible lead turned up void.

On April 4, a neighbor found a mallet on the front lawn of the home where someone murdered 29-year-old Young last fall.

City-County Bureau of Identification officials analyzed the mallet for blood, but they said yesterday they don't believe the mallet played a role in her death.

No one has been named or arrested in this case. "

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5265625
Wednesday, May 02, 2007

That's a 'fact' the media invented. The cops didn't say that. No attribution is given.

[alterEgo©]

I think I read it somewhere. Let me see.

"Wake County officials are still looking for the weapon used in the murder of Michelle Young - this after a possible lead turned up void.

On April 4, a neighbor found a mallet on the front lawn of the home where someone murdered 29-year-old Young last fall.

City-County Bureau of Identification officials analyzed the mallet for blood, but they said yesterday they don't believe the mallet played a role in her death.

No one has been named or arrested in this case. "

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5265625
Wednesday, May 02, 2007
What was true 2 yrs ago, may not be true today, and my not have been true then. You don't think LE would hold a presser and reveal anything about the murder weapon, do you? That is a typical hold back item.

[alterEgo©]

I don't think so. Psychiatrists have studied the psychological patterns and behaviors of murderers for a very long time. When respected, published psychiatrists draw conclusions about spousal homicides, describing an incubation period, a violent act, and then relief, they know of which they speak.

Incubation, violent act, and relief describes exactly what happened in Michelle's murder. Only Jason can tell us the facts, but it could be assumed that during his fling with MM he was in the incubation period. There's no question about the violent act, and there must have been a lot of relief for him to phone mom 28 times the morning after the murder and sound normal.

BTK did not have a violent rage and bash someone's head in 10-20 times. He strangled his victims, maybe shot one when he thought he would get caught. He liked to bind people and torture them by partially strangling them. Then he would kill them by strangling them.
Hmmm. Now you have changed your diagnosis.:confused:

No, what you say about BTK is incorrect, but that is a discussion for another time on another board.

[Jester]

I have been reading the posts about this case for two years. I have not commented since the network transition and that was under another name which somehow would not log in for some reason. I just wanted to express my opinion about this murder- the etiology and subsequent act. It seems fairly evident from the information that is out there about Jason Young that this horrific crime is simply the end result of a person's life lived with no regard for anyone but himself. He showed no restraint in his behaviour from his college days through the time employed until the choice he made to obtain his "freedom". He simmered below the surface with contempt and loathing for the person whom he blamed for a life he was unable to accept or control. I honestly feel he thought he deserved better without having to work for it like most people. Every step in life contrary to what was true personality needed only added fuel to the fire burning within. It is also my opinion that from the very circumstances that rushed him into marriage, he harbored resentment that even he ,with no conscience, could hide from the the people he so cleverly thought he had hoodwinked. I even think that he was devoid of the depth of character and emotion that a true father can feel. IMO, his child, though cared for in his limited capacity for love, was always a reminder of why he was in the situation he was. He married in an effort to give the people around him the impression he was a responsible person. Impressions seemed to matter to him a great deal. His whole existence was a facade and in the end he could no longer control the rage, the anger, the frustration of a life he constructed for himself. Unfortunately, many people have suffered because he could not resolve all the issues swarming around him in an appropriate manner. His silence now speaks volumes, IMOO.

That is exactly what I was looking for to describe the "incubation period" that psychiatrists claim spousal murderers experience prior to an extremely violent murder, one that can only be described as overkill.

Jason did exactly what psychiatrists claim spousal murderers do. He festered for a long time, released all the tension in one violent act, and then he relaxed.

[Jester]

That's a 'fact' the media invented. The cops didn't say that. No attribution is given.

I suppose when the police investigated the mallet to see if it was the murder weapon, they were humoring the media?

[alterEgo©]

That's a 'fact' the media invented. The cops didn't say that. No attribution is given.You are correct - no one is directly quoted nor credited with this information. Sounds like a conclusion a reporter drew because LE collected the mallet found when the yard was mowed by a neighbor.

[Jester]

What was true 2 yrs ago, may not be true today, and my not have been true then. You don't think LE would hold a presser and reveal anything about the murder weapon, do you? That is a typical hold back item.

I don't know. The last I heard was that the murder weapon had not been found. If it has been found, I haven't read it.

[alterEgo©]

That is exactly what I was looking for to describe the "incubation period" that psychiatrists claim spousal murderers experience prior to an extremely violent murder, one that can only be described as overkill.

Jason did exactly what psychiatrists claim spousal murderers do. He festered for a long time, released all the tension in one violent act, and then he relaxed.
Your analysis does not take the strangulation attempt into consideration. That failed attempt sparked a rage evidenced by the brutality of the attack imo.

[alterEgo©]

I don't know. The last I heard was that the murder weapon had not been found. If it has been found, I haven't read it.And you may not hear anything from the media about the whereabouts of the murder weapon. That will prolly not come out until trial.

It could go either way. Hard sayin' not knowin'.

[Lindsey]

I've been thinking a good bit lately about the murder weapon. I wonder if they do have it but they can't prove it belongs to Jason. I'm thinking of another case where that was the holdup but in that case the weapon was a gun.

What could the murder weapon be that Jason might have one of those but his is accounted for?

Just thinking of different stuff here ....

[5swab5]

It's not an exaggeration.

And I agree, the investigation is 'fragile'. It could implode at any time and leave Michelle's murder unsolved.:angry:

Too bad so many stupid mistakes have been make in the investigation rendering it 'fragile'.

Not going to implode, not going to go unsolved and not going to be unresolved by what you term mistakes in the investigation. Jason will eventually be tried for his crimes.

I'm sure the tooth that his sister got... from lord only knows where...will be brought up. Doubt she will be viewed as the most credible witness on the stand.

The lack of a rape kit will be explained by the ME, taking into account Michelle's injuries, how she was found and how she was dressed, etc. If need be, they can always exhume the body.

Going back to the house, to re-measure the tile...who's to say that a camera didn't malfunction, we just don't know. Looks more like someone was checking and double checking their facts to me.

Besides it really doesn't matter. Investigations are made by humans and humans are not perfect. The Defense Attorneys in this Country have worn everybody out by screaming sloppy police work in every single trial, so that doesn't get near the play that it did the first time it was sprung on a jury. MOO

[Jester]

Your analysis does not take the strangulation attempt into consideration. That failed attempt sparked a rage evidenced by the brutality of the attack imo.

Are you suggesting that Jason decided on strangulation as a method of murder, and preferred to use his bare hands rather than use a ligature? I find that to be a very odd theory. He had a weapon that was used to bash Michelle's head in, not a ligature.

I'm still waiting for a link to studies showing that men who fail at strangulation go into an uncontrollable rage. Your example of BTK did not reflect your theory.

[jerry50]

Hmmm. Now you have changed your diagnosis.:confused:

No, what you say about BTK is incorrect, but that is a discussion for another time on another board.

o/t I just read a new book out by profiler John Douglas about BTK. It was very good.

[Jester]

Hmmm. Now you have changed your diagnosis.:confused:

No, what you say about BTK is incorrect, but that is a discussion for another time on another board.

Not at all. My theory is the same as it was yesterday, and follows psychiatric studies of spousal homicides step by step.

[jerry50]

Are you suggesting that Jason decided on strangulation as a method of murder, and preferred to use his bare hands rather than use a ligature? I find that to be a very odd theory. He had a weapon that was used to bash Michelle's head in, not a ligature.

I'm still waiting for a link to studies showing that men who fail at strangulation go into an uncontrollable rage. Your example of BTK did not reflect your theory.


I have read almost every true crime book out there and I don't remember any where the spouse in a premeditated murder would use overkill as his first preference for method of killing. Premeditation would want the murder to be essentially bloodless and not offer many opportunities of leaving evidence behind.

I can easily see JY thinking he had killed her by strangulation and leaving the room and Michelle regaining conciousness. I would think she would be screaming at him telling him that he was going to be arrested, that she would take the kids, the house and all his money and all their friends and family would know about it. That could cetainly put someone in a rage with overkill.

Right after the murder it was speculated that he picked up a maglight that was in the room and that was the murder weapon.

[Jester]

I have read almost every true crime book out there and I don't remember any where the spouse in a premeditated murder would use overkill as his first preference for method of killing. Premeditation would want the murder to be essentially bloodless and not offer many opportunities of leaving evidence behind.

I can easily see JY thinking he had killed her by strangulation and leaving the room and Michelle regaining conciousness. I would think she would be screaming at him telling him that he was going to be arrested, that she would take the kids, the house and all his money and all their friends and family would know about it. That could cetainly put someone in a rage with overkill.

Right after the murder it was speculated that he picked up a maglight that was in the room and that was the murder weapon.

If someone tried to strangle me, I was unconscious and then came to, I would not be thinking about threatening the potential murderer with anything. I would be looking at ways to get out of the situation ... faking that I was dead, sneaking out, anything to get out of there.

Read some of the links I posted on page 5. It describes the violent act that comes after incubation. It's an autonomic behavior; a release of the pent up rage.

[achristie]

I've been thinking a good bit lately about the murder weapon. I wonder if they do have it but they can't prove it belongs to Jason. I'm thinking of another case where that was the holdup but in that case the weapon was a gun.

What could the murder weapon be that Jason might have one of those but his is accounted for?

Just thinking of different stuff here ....

You've been pondering the murder weapon lately? With all the recent info with the custody case and the recent SWs with all that info about AF and how he thinks JY is capable of the murder? You know, after all the reports of AF being in JY's camp? What are your thoughts on the recent developments? How do you feel about MF having PRIMARY custody of CY? You must have some reservations about this based on your posts in the past?

MOO Aggie

[Lindsey]

You've been pondering the murder weapon lately? With all the recent info with the custody case and the recent SWs with all that info about AF and how he thinks JY is capable of the murder? You know, after all the reports of AF being in JY's camp? What are your thoughts on the recent developments? How do you feel about MF having PRIMARY custody of CY? You must have some reservations about this based on your posts in the past?

MOO Aggie

I was a bit surprised that Jason gave up so much in the custody case, without a fight but I was also a bit surprised that LF and MF didn't go on for full and complete custody the way they started out. I guess they (all three) didn't want their issues aired in public for whatever reason. Hopefully, it was for the best interest of the child.

I was surprised about Alan's statements too. I believe he was giving Jason the benefit of the doubt in the beginning but it sounds like that didn't last very long.

Don't you wonder about the murder weapon? It would be a big piece of evidence but it would have to link directly to Jason, IMO. If they had proof of that link, I think Jason would be arrested. Maybe they're still looking for that proof.

All JMO

[tiny paw-prints]

Your analysis does not take the strangulation attempt into consideration. That failed attempt sparked a rage evidenced by the brutality of the attack imo.


I think it's also quite possible that the murderer squeezed Michelle's neck hard enough with one hand (to render a "strangulation" but not a failed strangulation) while beating her on the head with his other hand with some sort of hand-held weapon.

[jerzeegirl]

I was a bit surprised that Jason gave up so much in the custody case, without a fight but I was also a bit surprised that LF and MF didn't go on for full and complete custody the way they started out. I guess they (all three) didn't want their issues aired in public for whatever reason. Hopefully, it was for the best interest of the child.

I was surprised about Alan's statements too. I believe he was giving Jason the benefit of the doubt in the beginning but it sounds like that didn't last very long.

Don't you wonder about the murder weapon? It would be a big piece of evidence but it would have to link directly to Jason, IMO. If they had proof of that link, I think Jason would be arrested. Maybe they're still looking for that proof.

All JMO


I dont recall reading in Linda and Merediths custody suit that they didnt want jason to have visitation. Linda and Merediths suit was for custody of Cassidy. They won primary custody of Cassidy and Jason has been awarded secondary custody which basically in laymans terms is "visitation". Jason would of course get to see his daughter, his parental rights were not taken away. I absolutely think they won 100 percent in that suit, they went from not even being able to give their grandchild/niece a freakin gift to being able to see her anytime they want to and raise her and spend holidays and vacations, birthdays, talk about her mom and be a great big part of her life. Taking Jason out of cassidys life completely is not for a family judge to decide nor is it for Linda and Meredith to decide, only a jury of twelve will decide that.

[achristie]

I was a bit surprised that Jason gave up so much in the custody case, without a fight but I was also a bit surprised that LF and MF didn't go on for full and complete custody the way they started out. I guess they (all three) didn't want their issues aired in public for whatever reason. Hopefully, it was for the best interest of the child.

I was surprised about Alan's statements too. I believe he was giving Jason the benefit of the doubt in the beginning but it sounds like that didn't last very long.

Don't you wonder about the murder weapon? It would be a big piece of evidence but it would have to link directly to Jason, IMO. If they had proof of that link, I think Jason would be arrested. Maybe they're still looking for that proof.

All JMO

Truthfully? No. Whatever it was it achieved it's purpose. In the whole scheme of things, I don't think it matters; long gone with his clothes and any other incriminating things, never to be recovered.


As for your supposition that MF and LF didn't want their "issues" aired in public, I would strongly disagree.

MOO Aggie

[Lindsey]

Truthfully? No. Whatever it was it achieved it's purpose. In the whole scheme of things, I don't think it matters; long gone with his clothes and any other incriminating things, never to be recovered.


As for your supposition that MF and LF didn't want their "issues" aired in public, I would strongly disagree.

MOO Aggie

Then I assume you don't think the shoes that left the bloody footprints and the missing shirt are important either.

In the whole scheme of things, Michelle is dead and nothing can bring her back but I still want the guilty to pay. In order for the guilty to pay, evidence is needed. As much as possible, IMO.

[Leanne Weich]

Your analysis does not take the strangulation attempt into consideration. That failed attempt sparked a rage evidenced by the brutality of the attack imo.

That's my feeling too aE. I always felt the brutality was fueled by an unsuccessful attempt at strangulation first.

[achristie]

Then I assume you don't think the shoes that left the bloody footprints and the missing shirt are important either.

In the whole scheme of things, Michelle is dead and nothing can bring her back but I still want the guilty to pay. In order for the guilty to pay, evidence is needed. As much as possible, IMO.


Wrong assumption on your part. Those two issues are very important, IMO. Where is that missing shirt? And do his blistered feet account for the size 10 shoe print ?

You are not unique in wanting the guilty person to pay. I would venture to say that everyone here for the last 2 years shares that same sentiment.:wink:

MOO Aggie

MOO Aggie

[5swab5]

I was a bit surprised that Jason gave up so much in the custody case, without a fight but I was also a bit surprised that LF and MF didn't go on for full and complete custody the way they started out. I guess they (all three) didn't want their issues aired in public for whatever reason. Hopefully, it was for the best interest of the child. (snipped)All JMO


Well Gee Lindsey, how much more time would you have liked to see Jason give up? I have no idea what "issues" you could be alluding to in regard to Linda & Meredith. I think Jason's "dirty laundry" has already been pretty much aired in public.

What was to be gained by a protracted contentious trial? The Attorneys would have been the only ones to gain anything. Jason's parental rights are intact for now, it will all be academic anyway once he is arrested, but at least the paperwork is ready, so that Cassidy will be well cared for and far away from all the tension in the Brevard homes. I am sure that Linda and Meredith are happy with the 87/13 split for now.

I assume Jason is happy with his decision to trade his only daughter for his continued silence. Most people have a more dedicated attachment to their pets than he displayed for Cassidy. I know I couldn't live with myself, but hey that's just me. MOO

[Kat4Eagles]

I've been thinking a good bit lately about the murder weapon. I wonder if they do have it but they can't prove it belongs to Jason. I'm thinking of another case where that was the holdup but in that case the weapon was a gun.

What could the murder weapon be that Jason might have one of those but his is accounted for?

Just thinking of different stuff here ....

Hey Lin.....
It is good to see you...:)
Today must have been a specially difficult day for the Youngs and Fishers, knowing that Michelle would have turned 32 and the baby would be close to 2........

The home on Birchleaf could have been the place to celebrate all these things today, children running and playing in the yard, and friends and family enjoying good times.!!

Instead, the home holds nothing but horrible memories.
Whenever I think about anyone living there now, it makes me wonder how they can do it.
Everytime you would hear a noise or a step creaking at nite, knowing that someone crept up those stairs and slaughtered someone in the bedroom, ewwww.

You can change the carpet, change the decor, but you could never change what happened there.
I can not believe anyone could live there, especially with the crime still unsolved.

I would be seeing Michelle everywhere.
I would be thinking of what happened to her, the sheer terror she felt when she knew she was going to die.
Great, I just gave myself the chills.
Nightmares to follow.
Wtg, Kat!!

[Kat4Eagles]

Maybe someone who knows can turn teacher and tell us more about a civil case hearing. No evidence against Jason to be presented...right? No jury....right? So, what will take two+ hours?

Why not just sent Jason a letter saying this is what I have decided. This is what you owe and this is how we will get it??? Or....I have dismissed the civil complaint against you due to lack of evidence that you killed your wife...??

According to my calculations, this is what Linda asked for in her WD lawsuit:

Plaintiff Linda as executrix of estate

1. compensation for pain and suffering $10,000 +
2. funeral expenses
3. punitive damages $10,000 +
4. costs of court + interest $$
5. other relief as ordered by judge

Cassie as beneficiary

1. Michelle's expected net income (est. $80,000 X 30 = $2,400,000) ??
2. Loss of mother's care $$
3. Loss of mother's guidance $$


Hi KB...

I haven't completely bailed on you !!

And, I did make a small list of things in Jason's favor.

1) He did return to Raleigh that nite
2) He did return to Raleigh in the car he left in
3) He did submit to dna testing, (although, court ordered)
4) He has not tried to run
5) He seems confident


PS:
Does Jason still have his boat?

It ain't over until it's over, KB.
Kat

[Lindsey]

Well Gee Lindsey, how much more time would you have liked to see Jason give up? I have no idea what "issues" you could be alluding to in regard to Linda & Meredith. I think Jason's "dirty laundry" has already been pretty much aired in public.

What was to be gained by a protracted contentious trial? The Attorneys would have been the only ones to gain anything. Jason's parental rights are intact for now, it will all be academic anyway once he is arrested, but at least the paperwork is ready, so that Cassidy will be well cared for and far away from all the tension in the Brevard homes. I am sure that Linda and Meredith are happy with the 87/13 split for now.

I assume Jason is happy with his decision to trade his only daughter for his continued silence. Most people have a more dedicated attachment to their pets than he displayed for Cassidy. I know I couldn't live with myself, but hey that's just me. MOO

Well Gee Swab, do you think you could be a little more hateful and sarcastic responding to my posts?

I was asked my thoughts and I gave them. Should have known better. My bad.

[Lindsey]

Hey Lin.....
It is good to see you...:)
Today must have been a specially difficult day for the Youngs and Fishers, knowing that Michelle would have turned 32 and the baby would be close to 2........

The home on Birchleaf could have been the place to celebrate all these things today, children running and playing in the yard, and friends and family enjoying good times.!!

Instead, the home holds nothing but horrible memories.
Whenever I think about anyone living there now, it makes me wonder how they can do it.
Everytime you would hear a noise or a step creaking at nite, knowing that someone crept up those stairs and slaughtered someone in the bedroom, ewwww.

You can change the carpet, change the decor, but you could never change what happened there.
I can not believe anyone could live there, especially with the crime still unsolved.

I would be seeing Michelle everywhere.
I would be thinking of what happened to her, the sheer terror she felt when she knew she was going to die.
Great, I just gave myself the chills.
Nightmares to follow.
Wtg, Kat!!

Hey Kat,

It really is a sad day as all the days are when we think of what was lost that November night. Michelle had so much going for her and so much to offer to society, all gone without warning.

We need more people like her to make this a better place to live. I hope the monster who took her life will live in their own private hell of nightmares for the rest of their days.

All JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

Hey Kat,

It really is a sad day as all the days are when we think of what was lost that November night. Michelle had so much going for her and so much to offer to society, all gone without warning.

We need more people like her to make this a better place to live. I hope the monster who took her life will live in their own private hell of nightmares for the rest of their days.

All JMO

I know, it is like everything we have heard about Michelle, you just
know she was a wonderful friend and Mother.

I wonder if she was trying harder to save her marriage because of what she went through when her parents divorced.

Sounds like she was caught in the middle..and, then didn't get along with her new stepmother.

Maybe it was even that Jason wanted out, but, she wanted to keep trying, at all costs.

I certainly hope this monster is caught, but there will always be another tragic case that follows, won't there?

:(

Kat

[Lindsey]

I know, it is like everything we have heard about Michelle, you just
know she was a wonderful friend and Mother.

I wonder if she was trying harder to save her marriage because of what she went through when her parents divorced.

Sounds like she was caught in the middle..and, then didn't get along with her new stepmother.

Maybe it was even that Jason wanted out, but, she wanted to keep trying, at all costs.

I certainly hope this monster is caught, but there will always be another tragic case that follows, won't there?

:(

Kat


I agree with what you're saying. I think the first thing I heard about Michelle was what a wonderful mother she was. First and foremost. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Michelle wanted to keep the marriage together even if there were problems, just for the reasons you said. And she certainly knew the hurt of coming from a broken home. Most adult children of divorced parents do seem to try a little harder to make things work.

IMO

Sorry my attention was on another board for a few. A case I've been following for 3+ years.

[Kat4Eagles]

I agree with what you're saying. I think the first thing I heard about Michelle was what a wonderful mother she was. First and foremost. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Michelle wanted to keep the marriage together even if there were problems, just for the reasons you said. And she certainly knew the hurt of coming from a broken home. Most adult children of divorced parents do seem to try a little harder to make things work.

IMO

Sorry my attention was on another board for a few. A case I've been following for 3+ years.


That's okay, I was reading some of the CA Board.
I remember when this Board was that active, do you?

Anyway, I hope all of Michelle's friends and loved ones treasured all their memories of her today, and that somehow she knows how loved and missed she is.
RIP Michelle.
:rose:

Nite.
:seeya:
Kat

[alterEgo©]

snip
Going back to the house, to re-measure the tile...who's to say that a camera didn't malfunction, we just don't know. Looks more like someone was checking and double checking their facts to me.

snip
MOOWell gosh swabby, I have never seen a camera malfunction to the point that it caused a ruler showing scale and measurement completely vanished from the picture.

[5swab5]

Well gosh swabby, I have never seen a camera malfunction to the point that it caused a ruler showing scale and measurement completely vanished from the picture.

Lots of things could have happened. Dead batteries, bad film, under exposed or over exposed film. Bad angle and the flash blurred the numbers on the ruler. Fact remains, we do not know. MOO

[alterEgo©]

I think it's also quite possible that the murderer squeezed Michelle's neck hard enough with one hand (to render a "strangulation" but not a failed strangulation) while beating her on the head with his other hand with some sort of hand-held weapon.
I don't. If she was being held by the throat while being beat about the head, she would use her hands to deflect the blows not claw at the hand around her neck.

[alterEgo©]

Lots of things could have happened. Dead batteries, bad film, under exposed or over exposed film. Bad angle and the flash blurred the numbers on the ruler. Fact remains, we do not know. MOOUh, yeah we do know. LE told a judge that add'l photographs had to be taken because no photographs were taken to depict a scale or measurement a year prior.

d'oh

[Doorbell]

CY wasn't the problem. The Fishers constant pressure to see her was the problem. Now they have her so the pressure should be off the McIntyre's and also JY.

They could have relieved that pressure by allowing Linda and Meredith to see Cassidy on some sort of regular schedule. Allowing a transfer of physical custody seems like killing a fly with a sledgehammer, if that was the reason for it.

[Doorbell]

I've been thinking a good bit lately about the murder weapon. I wonder if they do have it but they can't prove it belongs to Jason. I'm thinking of another case where that was the holdup but in that case the weapon was a gun.

What could the murder weapon be that Jason might have one of those but his is accounted for?

Just thinking of different stuff here ....

How about a maglite? We discussed this at length several times over the past couple of years. Many people have more than one. Many people don't keep track of how many they have, and might have to stop and think, "Let me see...there's one in the kitchen, and one in the garage, and one in the utility room...and one in the nightstand in the bedroom."

[5swab5]

Uh, yeah we do know. LE told a judge that add'l photographs had to be taken because no photographs were taken to depict a scale or measurement a year prior.

d'oh

Call me cynical, but I don't take everything in the PC of a SW as gospel. MOO

[Doorbell]

They could have relieved that pressure by allowing Linda and Meredith to see Cassidy on some sort of regular schedule. Allowing a transfer of physical custody seems like killing a fly with a sledgeh*ammer, if that was the reason for it.

sorry for quoting myslef, but I didn't realize the h a m m e r icon would come up when I typed the word.

[5swab5]

I don't. If she was being held by the throat while being beat about the head, she would use her hands to deflect the blows not claw at the hand around her neck.

Goodness. Michelle had a laceration of the left thumb, an abrasion on the right wrist and multiple contusions of both hands. How long was she supposed to deflect blows to her head, until she needed to removed the hand around her throat for a breath of air? MOO

[Kat4Eagles]

Uh, yeah we do know. LE told a judge that add'l photographs had to be taken because no photographs were taken to depict a scale or measurement a year prior.

d'oh

Morning AE!!

What is your take on the bedroom furniture Jason had in storage being checked for prints at such a later date too?

I wouldn't even think he would still have the bedroom set if there was anything left on it that would incriminate him..

Same with floor tiles and deck planks, tear them up or repaint them.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

sorry for quoting myslef, but I didn't realize the h a m m e r icon would come up when I typed the word.

No problem, Doorbell, we have all done that.
:)
Kat

[bookie]

Morning AE!!

What is your take on the bedroom furniture Jason had in storage being checked for prints at such a later date too?

I wouldn't even think he would still have the bedroom set if there was anything left on it that would incriminate him..

Same with floor tiles and deck planks, tear them up or repaint them.

Kat



I'm not AE but it seems to me that any evidence they got from the furniture would stand a good chance of being thrown out at trial. It was months after the crime scene was released when police went to get samples and was handled by who knows how many other people. It would definitely be tainted evidence.

[Stellagant]

Maybe someone who knows can turn teacher and tell us more about a civil case hearing. No evidence against Jason to be presented...right? No jury....right? So, what will take two+ hours?

Why not just sent Jason a letter saying this is what I have decided. This is what you owe and this is how we will get it??? Or....I have dismissed the civil complaint against you due to lack of evidence that you killed your wife...??

According to my calculations, this is what Linda asked for in her WD lawsuit:

Plaintiff Linda as executrix of estate

1. compensation for pain and suffering $10,000 +
2. funeral expenses
3. punitive damages $10,000 +
4. costs of court + interest $$
5. other relief as ordered by judge

Cassie as beneficiary

1. Michelle's expected net income (est. $80,000 X 30 = $2,400,000) ??
2. Loss of mother's care $$
3. Loss of mother's guidance $$

Damages have to be proved to the court's satisfaction before they can be awarded. That means receipts for the funeral presented, Linda testify to her pain and suffering, etc. I'm curious how the court will handle this because Cassidy is still in Jason's legal custody and the court has already decided the insurance money. At this point, anything awarded directly to Fisher is money Cassidy won't get.

[Stellagant]

Morning AE!!

What is your take on the bedroom furniture Jason had in storage being checked for prints at such a later date too?

I wouldn't even think he would still have the bedroom set if there was anything left on it that would incriminate him..

Same with floor tiles and deck planks, tear them up or repaint them.

Kat

Jason's prints would expected to be on his own furniture so I seriously doubt it was Jason's prints or DNA they were looking for on that furniture.

[Kat4Eagles]

Ruling:
:no:

Private Messages are now subject to the same banning rules as posts are.
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:)
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Jason's prints would expected to be on his own furniture so I seriously doubt it was Jason's prints or DNA they were looking for on that furniture.

Morning Stella,
I wondered about that, so you think they were looking for a foreign print?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I'm not AE but it seems to me that any evidence they got from the furniture would stand a good chance of being thrown out at trial. It was months after the crime scene was released when police went to get samples and was handled by who knows how many other people. It would definitely be tainted evidence.

Morning, Confused:
I was thinking the same thing, as these things were in the home for quite a long time after the murder.
The family did not try to remove or hide anything, I think it was when the home was put up for sale, that they decided to move stuff out.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

To add to this, Jason and the Youngs could have just chalked the "repairs" to selling the home, rather than be accused of destroying anything that would point to his guilt.

[Kat4Eagles]

Call me cynical, but I don't take everything in the PC of a SW as gospel. MOO

Including the explanation of the placement of the keys?
Kat

[5swab5]

Wouldn't you have thought LE would be looking at her emails and phone records yet we see no warrants for these.

LE doesn't delve into every aspect of someone's life, if they are NOT a suspect.MOO

[5swab5]

The questioned her placement of the keys enought to recheck MY's car. That tells me she not totally in the clear. Maybe they would find something if the went fishing after all that seems to be what they are doing with JY.

Sounds like good investigative work to me. There have been ZERO SWs related to Meredith, but at least 18 for Jason. Looks like they are on the right track to me. MOO.

[5swab5]

No being on the right track would mean the killer/killers would have been arrested 2 years ago. Why some refuse to see this is beyond me.

"Complicated case", Michelle was killed in her home where Jason's DNA would naturally be and premeditated to the max. This kind of investigation takes longer than your run-of-the-mill intruder slaughter.

Where is all the stranger DNA? The only DNA that has been mentioned, is either a match to Jason's or he can't be excluded. MOO

[alterEgo©]

Call me cynical, but I don't take everything in the PC of a SW as gospel. MOO
What, you think LE lied to a judge to get a warrant?

[alterEgo©]

Morning AE!!

What is your take on the bedroom furniture Jason had in storage being checked for prints at such a later date too?

I wouldn't even think he would still have the bedroom set if there was anything left on it that would incriminate him..

Same with floor tiles and deck planks, tear them up or repaint them.

KatI'm frankly amazed a judge signed the warrant. Talk about a fishing expedition. They had the house for almost 2 weeks and didn't bother to process the bedroom furniture for any FE or prints. But then expect to find anything useful after the furniture had been handled by who-knows how many people and removed from the crime scene and stored away.

Interesting that the deck planks have not been mentioned in any other warrants to try to tie Jason to the Frankin10 shoes.

[alterEgo©]

Goodness. Michelle had a laceration of the left thumb, an abrasion on the right wrist and multiple contusions of both hands. How long was she supposed to deflect blows to her head, until she needed to removed the hand around her throat for a breath of air? MOOuh yeah, exactly my point.

:read:

[5swab5]

I'm frankly amazed a judge signed the warrant. Talk about a fishing expedition. They had the house for almost 2 weeks and didn't bother to process the bedroom furniture for any FE or prints. But then expect to find anything useful after the furniture had been handled by who-knows how many people and removed from the crime scene and stored away.

Interesting that the deck planks have not been mentioned in any other warrants to try to tie Jason to the Frankin10 shoes.

Where does it say that they didn't process the bedroom furniture during those 13 days?
I imagine they learned all they needed to know about the footprints in the deck sealant from Jason's former friends. MOO

[alterEgo©]

Damages have to be proved to the court's satisfaction before they can be awarded. That means receipts for the funeral presented, Linda testify to her pain and suffering, etc. I'm curious how the court will handle this because Cassidy is still in Jason's legal custody and the court has already decided the insurance money. At this point, anything awarded directly to Fisher is money Cassidy won't get.And Jason's ability to pay has to be factored in there somewhere too. And according to the custody complaint, he has no income.

And NC has no Son of Sam type law so income that could be attributed to selling his story won't be a consideration - at least that is how I understand it.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Where does it say that they didn't process the bedroom furniture during those 13 days?


Where does it say they did? Where does it say they didn't? With all the search warrants and the info that is in them, we still know very little about the case that the cops are building against their "suspect". Even if an arrest takes place, how much info will be released prior to a trial?

[BSNBREVARDNC]

And Jason's ability to pay has to be factored in there somewhere too. And according to the custody complaint, he has no income.

And NC has no Son of Sam type law so income that could be attributed to selling his story won't be a consideration - at least that is how I understand it.

OK, I have to ask. What is the Son of Sam Law?

[alterEgo©]

Where does it say that they didn't process the bedroom furniture during those 13 days?
I imagine they learned all they needed to know about the footprints in the deck sealant from Jason's former friends. MOO
In the warrant for the storage facility.

Footprint? You mean footwear impression in the stain on the deck? What in the world would Jason's friends, former or otherwise, know about them?

[jerry50]

I was reading on a website today and came across this statement by one of our founding fathers:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." That's John Adams, one of the founders.

So hiding behind the fifth amendment after bludgeoning a pregnant Mother would be rather distasteful to the men who intended to protect the innocent.

[alterEgo©]

OK, I have to ask. What is the Son of Sam Law?
The Son of Sam Law outlawed criminals selling their story. It was struck down by the Supreme Court as it denied someone their constitutional right to free speech. So, many states adopted their own laws to prohibit a criminal from profiting from their criminal activity - they can sell their story but all money from it goes to the victim or the state. Also, the potential profits can be factored in when computing the defendant's ability to pay in wrongful death suits.

[jerry50]

And Jason's ability to pay has to be factored in there somewhere too. And according to the custody complaint, he has no income.

And NC has no Son of Sam type law so income that could be attributed to selling his story won't be a consideration - at least that is how I understand it.

I think that the judgement would be against any future earnings. WHen the Brown/Goldman family got the $33 million there was no indication that OJ would ever earn that money.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I was reading on a website today and came across this statement by one of our founding fathers:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." That's John Adams, one of the founders.

So hiding behind the fifth amendment after bludgeoning a pregnant Mother would be rather distasteful to the men who intended to protect the innocent.

Things have changed a lot since the late 1700's. The separation of church and state was meant to protect the church from interference from the government. Now it's just the opposite. What ever happened to the idea that the constitution was written to place limits on the government?:confused:

[BSNBREVARDNC]

Thanks AE.

[alterEgo©]

I was reading on a website today and came across this statement by one of our founding fathers:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." That's John Adams, one of the founders.

So hiding behind the fifth amendment after bludgeoning a pregnant Mother would be rather distasteful to the men who intended to protect the innocent.
I guess you missed the part in the constitution about being innocent until proven guilty. What would be distasteful to the framers would be using the invocation of a right against someone.

It always makes me shake my head when someone claims exercising a right is 'hiding behind' that right. Are you hiding behind the 1st Amendment by posting here?

[alterEgo©]

Thanks AE.Anytime.....

[alterEgo©]

Things have changed a lot since the late 1700's. The separation of church and state was meant to protect the church from interference from the government. Now it's just the opposite. What ever happened to the idea that the constitution was written to place limits on the government?:confused:I hope it doesn't cause the world to stop spinning on it's axis, but I agree with you.

Totally agree.

[alterEgo©]

I think that the judgement would be against any future earnings. WHen the Brown/Goldman family got the $33 million there was no indication that OJ would ever earn that money.Right, his potential earnings.

Which using his current and past earnings as a bar, is next to nothing....or so it has been argued.....