2/9 Double homicide

[bkwits]

New thread for today

[wolfi_2]

Quoted from last thread

-Aradia5-
On the video on the right at the end of it it says court this week is to see if CR can stay home with his mom.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/no...hT-AEZCsQ.cspx

or

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/loc...xv.dayport.com
Quote end


I hope that is true, I can’t imagine, how I would tell my child that he must go back in isolation.

[bkwits]

Quoted from last thread

-Aradia5-
On the video on the right at the end of it it says court this week is to see if CR can stay home with his mom.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/no...hT-AEZCsQ.cspx

or

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/loc...xv.dayport.com
Quote end


I hope that is true, I can’t imagine, how I would tell my child that he must go back in isolation.


I wonder if the court will post some new files today.

[wolfi_2]

About Leroy Romero, it’s very suspiciously for me, to tell family members nobody should speak to the investigators.

And as far I read in the moment, the boy is that kind of boy, the most of us like to have!

[IAMME]

Notice how they keep going back to Nicole? Do you guys think she is a suspect?

Or better yet why don't we work on a new suspect list???

Nicole
guys in the primered car

Who else is new?

[muska]

About Leroy Romero, it’s very suspiciously for me, to tell family members nobody should speak to the investigators.

And as far I read in the moment, the boy is that kind of boy, the most of us like to have!

That does seem pretty awful. Why didn't the family make sure the boy didn't talk to the police without a lawyer if they're going to worry so much about themselves? It sounds like Leroy was worried the police would report negatively about them............sure doesn't sound like he had much confidence in the police, at least not after the fact.

[mrrogers]

That does seem pretty awful. Why didn't the family make sure the boy didn't talk to the police without a lawyer if they're going to worry so much about themselves? It sounds like Leroy was worried the police would report negatively about them............sure doesn't sound like he had much confidence in the police, at least not after the fact.
the police refused to let anyone in with the boy thats why
u think thats bad he wants the boy in fostercare or locked up
hes turned his back on the boy :w00t::w00t:

[muska]

the police refused to let anyone in with the boy thats why
u think thats bad he wants the boy in fostercare or locked up
hes turned his back on the boy :w00t::w00t:

I saw on one of the comment pages that someone was suggesting foster care. I think Eryn has shown that she is very capable of handling the situation and the child's care. He needs to be with someone who loves him, someone who can make him feel safe.

[freddief]

I've never read so much trash on this website. Blaming family members and friends, impugning their reputations. IMO CR did the crime. He'll probably get out this week because the courts don't know how to handle this...not because he's innocent. IMO

[Crispy]

So we have court again this Thursday the 12th.

I wonder why no transcripts are being put up on the website and everything is being done in a closed hearing.

[IAMME]

So we have court again this Thursday the 12th.

I wonder why no transcripts are being put up on the website and everything is being done in a closed hearing.

Maybe the finally realized they are dealing with a juvenile and that MOST juvenile records are not made into media fodder? Of course I may be giving them WAY too much credit....imo

[Aradia5]

Here is the link

http://www.co.apache.az.us/pdfs/CountyMGR/request.pdf

.25 per page

How can we help if some on this board didn't pay for this stuff?? We had to! It is public record!

[rusure?]

Here is the link

http://www.co.apache.az.us/pdfs/CountyMGR/request.pdf

.25 per page

How can we help if some on this board didn't pay for this stuff?? We had to! It is public record!

So, does this mean it can be discussed now?

[PensiveOne]

I've never read so much trash on this website. Blaming family members and friends, impugning their reputations. IMO CR did the crime. He'll probably get out this week because the courts don't know how to handle this...not because he's innocent. IMO

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

[Cherishlove]

I've never read so much trash on this website. Blaming family members and friends, impugning their reputations. IMO CR did the crime. He'll probably get out this week because the courts don't know how to handle this...not because he's innocent. IMO
That's your opinion but there are many people who feel he is innocent. The stuff reported on this tread regarding the drugs and someone threatening Mr. Romans life was on the news yesterday. You can buy the records they are discussing, it's public knowledge.

[petessake]

I continue to believe he did not kill these men. I DO believe he had a very unstable homelife, from these latest news reports, and these new records. I believe a lot of the wrong influence was allowed. I believe it was a mistake to have Tim Romans in the home. I believe Eryn knows her son, and she certainly is standing by him. I have always thought it was a drug or passion crime, aimed at Tim. Vince may have been somewhat involved, or was simply in the way. I also believe it's not over yet. But we are getting closer to the end.

i agree a lot of what you say. lets just hope this nightmare is over real soon for this little boy and his mother. waiting for brewer/wood to exonerate this poor little boy! lets hope this is a week for good, solid news!

[Cherishlove]

I've never read so much trash on this website. Blaming family members and friends, impugning their reputations. IMO CR did the crime. He'll probably get out this week because the courts don't know how to handle this...not because he's innocent. IMOBut it's okay for you to say bad things about this little boy?

[Aradia5]

There is no purchase necessary. :rolleyes:

Did you get yours yet ?

[Aradia5]

I continue to believe he did not kill these men. I DO believe he had a very unstable homelife, from these latest news reports, and these new records. I believe a lot of the wrong influence was allowed. I believe it was a mistake to have Tim Romans in the home. I believe Eryn knows her son, and she certainly is standing by him. I have always thought it was a drug or passion crime, aimed at Tim. Vince may have been somewhat involved, or was simply in the way. I also believe it's not over yet. But we are getting closer to the end.

ITA :thumbsup:

[mrrogers]

About Leroy Romero, it’s very suspiciously for me, to tell family members nobody should speak to the investigators.

And as far I read in the moment, the boy is that kind of boy, the most of us like to have!

well if hed a dug his heels in at the house and not caved this might not have happened

[petessake]

how far is st.johns from the tempe area? on jan 10th they arrested the leader of the group that sold methamphetamines in tempe, mesa and phoenix areas. arrests more than 80 drug dealers that targeted everyone from small-scale dealers to mid-level supporters etc. it is over on the az family news site.

[steffaroob4]

http://november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/
Not sure how this works, but maybe it might help.

If you figure out how it works, please PM me and tell how to do it.

[mrrogers]

I don't think so by her post.

Coldwater
Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 466


How about posting the link to report or don't post at all.

The link that Aradia gave http://www.co.apache.az.us/pdfs/CountyMGR/request.pdf is not a link to the report but a request site.

But maybe someone can ask Coldwater.

I have never seen when quotes are used or discussions stated from information that hasn't been in the media, being allowed without having an actual link to the report(s) themselves the posters are discussing and quoting.

Maybe the Apache County Clerk of the Court will have them available on their site later today. Then every posters will have a link to the actual reports.

imoo

i just cannot believe you complained about something you didnt have to cw
there is nothing in the tos that limit this type of discussion
so because one person doesnt have something no one can talk thats a very mature attitude
just because you havent seen it gb doesnt mean it cant be done this is the 21st century
would you be so kind as to show me a link to where it cant be done
thanking you in advance for your cooperation:w00t::w00t::w00t:

[mrrogers]

how far is st.johns from the tempe area? on jan 10th they arrested the leader of the group that sold methamphetamines in tempe, mesa and phoenix areas. arrests more than 80 drug dealers that targeted everyone from small-scale dealers to mid-level supporters etc. it is over on the az family news site.

its about a 4 hour drive

[rusure?]

how far is st.johns from the tempe area? on jan 10th they arrested the leader of the group that sold methamphetamines in tempe, mesa and phoenix areas. arrests more than 80 drug dealers that targeted everyone from small-scale dealers to mid-level supporters etc. it is over on the az family news site.

Wonder if one of the ones arrested is the person who threatened to kill TR?

[GentleBreeze]

I asked Coldwater and am waiting for a reply. As far as I know this report is not linkeable directly. It has to be ordered. You can't link to something that is not posted online, as far as I know. At least three links have been given where one can order this report. That is how most of the posters got the report. I am waiting for Coldwater's reply.

Maybe I am confused. Posters last night were asking to see the link to the report and then it was obvious imo, shortly thereafter, they had been given the report by someone, because they started commenting on the reports, themselves. I suppose that was done through PMs or emails. So if that can be done why cant the link be put on the board for all IS posters to read for themselves and make their own comments?

It had to come in a format of a pdf, didn't it? Then why not link just the pdf report.

I just don't understand all the secrecy.

imo

[bkwits]

Maybe I am confused. Posters last night were asking to see the link to the report and then it was obvious imo, shortly thereafter, they had been given the report by someone, because they started commenting on the reports, themselves. I suppose that was done through PMs or emails. So if that can be done why cant the link be put on the board for all IS posters to read for themselves and make their own comments?

It had to come in a format of a pdf, didn't it? Then why not link just the pdf report.

I just don't understand all the secrecy.

imo

There is no secrecy. It is public information. You can get it just like I did. If I mentioned something that was printed in a book, would I have to scan and print the book. No that is infringement, isn't it? Maybe this would be also. I don't know. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in TOS to prevent the discussion. Why don't you get the report for yourself? I don't understand your complaining. It is readily available to you.

IMHO

[GentleBreeze]

i just cannot believe you complained about something you didnt have to cw
there is nothing in the tos that limit this type of discussion
so because one person doesnt have something no one can talk thats a very mature attitude
just because you havent seen it gb doesnt mean it cant be done this is the 21st century
would you be so kind as to show me a link to where it cant be done
thanking you in advance for your cooperation:w00t::w00t::w00t:

Here ya go. Right from the boss.

02-09-2009, 11:57 AM
Coldwater
Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 466


How about posting the link to report or don't post at all.

[Aradia5]

Wonder if one of the ones arrested is the person who threatened to kill TR?

That would be AWESOME!

[bkwits]

Here ya go. Right from the boss.

02-09-2009, 11:57 AM
Coldwater
Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 466


How about posting the link to report or don't post at all.

That is taken out of context of the quote she was addressing. I think you know that, though.

[bkwits]

I've looked all over and I can't find it.:sad:


Aradia5 posted this one.

http://www.co.apache.az.us/pdfs/CountyMGR/request.pdf

[Jacobtk]

I've never read so much trash on this website. Blaming family members and friends, impugning their reputations.

It is not unusual. The state decided to release a report to the media that unfortunately raises a lot of questions about the family members. The speculation could have remained just that had Carlyon not tried this poorly played gamble. The statements reported on news casts make very horrible implications about both the victims and because the media simply put statements on television without any context, it is no surprise that people will question the family members' characters.

IMO CR did the crime. He'll probably get out this week because the courts don't know how to handle this...not because he's innocent. IMO

At this point the only reason he will remain out of jail is if Hines tells the judge that the boy could not handle being imprisoned (which should be apparent, but one would be surprised by how oblivious and unconcerned adults, particularly those with power, actually are). There is also the possibility that the defense has turned over evidence that points away from the boy. There is also the possibility that the defense needs more time to interview those on the witness list. If the boy's guilt was apparent, it would be beyond unwise for the judge to release a child who impulsively tries to kill people for no given reason.

[mrrogers]

I saw on one of the comment pages that someone was suggesting foster care. I think Eryn has shown that she is very capable of handling the situation and the child's care. He needs to be with someone who loves him, someone who can make him feel safe.

yea shes got a nice lawyer also to help talked to him last week

[bkwits]

There is no purchase necessary. :rolleyes:

Can you tell us where to get the report?

[dgfred]

I guess we might as well close up shop then. :lol::lol:


That's what I was thinking :scared: .

I thought it was a discussion/message/forum. How can one theorize different possibilities if there is no link to verify... if it is something one is thinking over and not verified. I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just confused.

[muska]

It seems like two ways to get the information have been posted. Don't they count as links?

[bkwits]

That's what I was thinking :scared: .

I thought it was a discussion/message/forum. How can one theorize different possibilities if there is no link to verify... if it is something one is thinking over and not verified. I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just confused.

I am confused by your post. Could you explain further?

[bkwits]

I have no problem posting to every single newscast that has discussed the released report. It seems ridiculous that anyone would be barred from discussing what was reported on the news given that the information comes directly from the state.
ci
Or perhaps something else is at play.

I've thought of that too. When writing a report or essay, it is permissable to cite discussions with people, books, journals, Internet, television shows. Just about any source as long as it can be verified. If we quote info from a book, there isn't necessarily an Internet link to it. This is thoroughly confusing.

IMO

[mrrogers]

I wonder if the court will post some new files today.

usually they post at 430pm az time

[dgfred]

Another one of the sayings from the southwest. I'm telling you, I grew up saying "I'll kill you", or "I'm gonna kill her/him" all the time. Different expressions for different areas. And I've NEVER killed anyone. Oops, some are gonna come after me :w00t:

Here in NC they even say it all the time on the Andy Griffith show:

Barney says what he can do to Ernest T. Bass and Andy says 'he'll kill ya' , doesn't mean acutually would kill but you get the message.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I remember going through this on the Scott Peterson Board awaiting his trial and during the trial

Documents from the Courts were not free to the public but thanks to several people, we had access to the documents and transcripts

We were allowed to discuss the contents on the Board so why is this any different?

:confused:

LOL -- I remember as well that for a short time we had to give page number and line in reference but that got to be to screwy for most posters to follow, so we were eventually allowed to discuss minus the technical line numbers


But we had to sure to add "in our opinion" no matter what

Sure was a lot of mooing on that Board!!

(:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Another one of the sayings from the southwest. I'm telling you, I grew up saying "I'll kill you", or "I'm gonna kill her/him" all the time. Different expressions for different areas. And I've NEVER killed anyone. Oops, some are gonna come after me :w00t:

And maybe he simply meant he was going to kill him in a game of horseshoes

(shrug)

[wolfi_2]

Just off topic for a moment.
I just like to contact Hawk and can`t find him in the member list here.

Hawk, if you are still reading this forum, please contact me at www.sim-outhouse.com ,a flight simulator forum, you have to register like to this site, then send a private message to wolfi.

Thank you.

[mina]

No problem, we don't have much topic going on here, Wolfi. Remember when we were kids, someone (insecure) was forever saying, "I'm not playin'!), or (I"m gonna tell!). :rolleyes:

LOL. Today has given me flashbacks of elementary school!

[TaraCrazyHair]

I doubt if it was said about a game of horseshoes, if it was his father wouldn't have been upset enough to respond " How dare you." It was reported he said it in anger.



imo


Well, since we were not there, we really don't know but from what I understand, even his father did not hear him say the words, he responded after the fact from some other person's words so we may never know the context in which the words were uttered

Or how sober the "parties" might have been during the exchange

[IAMME]

Could I have a link to the above please?? I'd like to see that.


I am pretty sure that is in reference to posts 14, 15 and 26 of this thread......

[shelby77]

Gentlebreeze this is for you...

I know you seem to make much of the fact (not sure why) that St. Johns has a high median income. I just wanted to point out that if you want reliable info, you kinda need to do more than just skim a city-data profile.
They may have an average income of 46K, vs. Arizona's 49K, but that is an extremely misleading figure.

THE PER CAPITA income for St Johns is only 13K!!!

All they need is a handful of extremely high income people mixed in with the regular folk to make the average sky rocket. It isn't hard to figure out...didya even see the avg. price of real estate, GMAB. My neighbors drive more expensive cars LOL.

To find this info, one just needs to do further research within city-data and wikipedia. It's also stated elsewhere, but there's 2 to start ya off with :)

[TaraCrazyHair]

I would really love to see a discussion get back on topic and not a discussion over links?

There are newly released documents that some have been able to obtain with some very interesting information that sheds a little, well actually a lot, of light on the case.

I know I now have even more questions than I did before ...

The news video out of Arz touched on what is contained ... at least major enough points for them, but there is tons more information that we did not know before

Does the fact he made references to "killing" or "shooting" his dad put him in a different light .. even if second hand?

Why is there a photo on the cell phone with a boy and a black eye?

Is that boy, CR?

Why carry the photo?

[shelby77]

It seems like two ways to get the information have been posted. Don't they count as links?

Seeing as I was able to get my hands on it with only 5 min of my time, and the links provided, I find it really amusing that some many people who have ample time to post here, can't take a few to get the info for themselves. Like I did. Go figure.

I think some people just like to complain, but that's just my opinion, of course.

BTW, Huge thanks to those of you who posted the links :) Much appreciated, by me anyway.

[shelby77]

I have this discussion with her previously on a different board. It is simple stastics 101.
Today the discussion on KTAR was that is was pretty common practice in St.Johns for people to rent out rooms for cash to illegals no questions asked to help make ends meet.


Yea, I think I saw that discussion with the 2 of ya. I wanted to make sure she had the LINKS to verify the info and I didn't feel like diggin for it at the time, tho I knew doing in-depth research (not quick skims) that I had found information contradictory to hers.
Not that it really matters, just one of those lil things that bugged me....inaccurate info being thrown around as fact, I hate that..

If she needs it I have a link to the definition of per-capita income for her too :laugh:

[IAMME]

That is what news media is saying the boy said "I'll kill you".
It is on Comedy central all the time. Kids see this stuff all the time.


My kids quote that puppet all the time....It is the "fad" so to say.....

[shelby77]

My kids quote that puppet all the time....It is the "fad" so to say.....


Yup, it sure is. My son's 7 y/o half brother is forever quoting this puppet, and now my son (his older bro) does too.
Along w/ saying "wash your hands" in spanish ( i can say, but not spell it!) Don't know where he picked that one up LOL. But kids, they hear something, like the way it sounds, and repeat it.

He also says things along the line of "I'll kill you" in anger pretty often. I was never too disturbed by it, tho at 7, my son never spoke that way. All kids are different, plus different environments and what not in the home.

You'd be amazed how many people let their small children watch shows like Family Guy and South Park (not appropriate in my opinion).
But I know for a fact that is where my half son (as I think of him) gets it. He watches those shows all the time when he is AT HOME. (not with me).

[ChildsVOICE]

That would be AWESOME!

Especially if he/she (drug dealer) confessed as part of a PLEA DEAL!

[mrrogers]

So we have court again this Thursday the 12th.

I wonder why no transcripts are being put up on the website and everything is being done in a closed hearing.

all you gotta do is look at what the judge has done is doing
the boy is free like he should be
the state has no case
so i betcha this is settled in his office
i think the people doing the uploading and sendig out the public files are the same
there doing a great job for what there up against
theyll even chat with you if you im them lol

[ChildsVOICE]

Another one of the sayings from the southwest. I'm telling you, I grew up saying "I'll kill you", or "I'm gonna kill her/him" all the time. Different expressions for different areas. And I've NEVER killed anyone. Oops, some are gonna come after me :w00t:

I agree with you. When I was growing up people (adults and children) said it all the time when joking or when angry. Most people always knew they didn't mean it literally. It was just a phrase.

However, when my uncle was shot and killed (when I was a kid)
the fact that he always went around saying that phrase came up in court preceedings and made him look really bad. It ultimately was a big reason the man who killed him got off and found not guilty.

I learned a very big lesson that day and I don't think I've used it ever since.

Also, I have four kids. I've babysat my entire life. I have an Early Childhood Education Degree. This is a very common phrase children use when angry or to just joke, however inappropriate.

[dgfred]

And many boys and young men do say this all the time, however inappropriate, I know because I used to be one a good ways back in time :crying: . Some old guys still say-it in jest, I know that because I'm one of 'em now - 44 :scared: , however inappropriate.

[TaraCrazyHair]

And many boys and young men do say this all the time, however inappropriate, I know because I used to be one a good ways back in time :crying: . Some old guys still say-it in jest, I know that because I'm one of 'em now - 44 :scared: , however inappropriate.

It is not just young men and boys who utter those words

Many a female has done the same .. young and old


Does it mean anything? Nope

At least until somebody turns up dead

[MOTHEROF4BOY]

It is not just young men and boys who utter those words

Many a female has done the same .. young and old


Does it mean anything? Nope

At least until somebody turns up dead

After this story, I think we should all watch want we say. I told my husband if something happened to your ex I probably would be accused of it. Would never, but I guess the words that have came out of my mouth in the past would make me a suspect.:blushing:

[MOTHEROF4BOY]

all you gotta do is look at what the judge has done is doing
the boy is free like he should be
the state has no case
so i betcha this is settled in his office
i think the people doing the uploading and sendig out the public files are the same
there doing a great job for what there up against
theyll even chat with you if you im them lol


:thumbsup:I believe want the judge is doing speaks for itself:thumbsup:

[FDInLaw]

Wow, only three pages for today. . . things have sure slowed down on here!



Wondering what the next hearing will hold. Not sure what to think at this point.

[Details]

After this story, I think we should all watch want we say. I told my husband if something happened to your ex I probably would be accused of it. Would never, but I guess the words that have came out of my mouth in the past would make me a suspect.:blushing:Thing is - if such a thing happened - there'd be at least one jury member, heck, probably all of them, the judge, and the prosecuting attorneys - would be able to think of similar times in their lives. Might make you a suspect - but I doubt you can get a conviction on that. And that goes double for the random statements of a child.


FD - IMO, we need more info - sounds like there's a ton of stuff that some people have gotten - and interesting material too - but it's still not the final details we need - the ballistics report, fingerprints on casings - something solid. The rest is 'he said she said' - could be anything.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Thing is - if such a thing happened - there'd be at least one jury member, heck, probably all of them, the judge, and the prosecuting attorneys - would be able to think of similar times in their lives. Might make you a suspect - but I doubt you can get a conviction on that. And that goes double for the random statements of a child.


FD - IMO, we need more info - sounds like there's a ton of stuff that some people have gotten - and interesting material too - but it's still not the final details we need - the ballistics report, fingerprints on casings - something solid. The rest is 'he said she said' - could be anything.

At this point, not even if the ballistics matched the chipmunk could I 100% believe it was the boy

Way too many other motives running in the case to be solid

[FDInLaw]

Thing is - if such a thing happened - there'd be at least one jury member, heck, probably all of them, the judge, and the prosecuting attorneys - would be able to think of similar times in their lives. Might make you a suspect - but I doubt you can get a conviction on that. And that goes double for the random statements of a child.


FD - IMO, we need more info - sounds like there's a ton of stuff that some people have gotten - and interesting material too - but it's still not the final details we need - the ballistics report, fingerprints on casings - something solid. The rest is 'he said she said' - could be anything. I agree. A two inch stack of interviews is valuable, but I'd sure like to know more about the actual physical evidence before making my mind up.

[eagargal]

Just off topic for a moment.
I just like to contact Hawk and can`t find him in the member list here.

Hawk, if you are still reading this forum, please contact me at www.sim-outhouse.com ,a flight simulator forum, you have to register like to this site, then send a private message to wolfi.

Thank you.

Wolfi_2....

Owl is here...http://boards.crimelibrary.com/forumdisplay.php?f=501

[mrrogers]

Since the link to the documents has been posted and reviewed by some posters, if not all, then we are free to discuss and debate what we are reading in those documents, correct?

It is no longer hearsay?

TIA!

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx
THIS ARTICLE HAS MUCH OF THE SAME MATERIAL THE AFOREMENTIONED REPORT DID :w00t::w00t:

[wolfi_2]

Wolfi_2....

Owl is here...http://boards.crimelibrary.com/forumdisplay.php?f=501


thank You, I found him already!:smile:

[TaraCrazyHair]

"None of these people came forward before this event and said anything. It was always after the fact," Brewer said. "I think the majority of people have picked their side. They could very easily tend to remember facts or embellish statements that may not be as powerful as they seem."

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

That is what I feel as well ... especially regarding the bus driver who should have reported what he was told just to be on the side of protection

[GentleBreeze]

"None of these people came forward before this event and said anything. It was always after the fact," Brewer said. "I think the majority of people have picked their side. They could very easily tend to remember facts or embellish statements that may not be as powerful as they seem."

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

That is what I feel as well ... especially regarding the bus driver who should have reported what he was told just to be on the side of protection

I think that is a normal response from any defense attorney who is representing their client.

I don't see why anyone would say untruths about this boy. They have to all feel some guilt now that they never said anything but many times people will cast aside warning signs and may have thought it was just growing pains that would blow over.

I think it is common for some people to see someone one way and others see them another. The boy may have felt more comfortable among his family members and knew he could act up and nothing would really be done.

Excerpts:

Others said the boy was aggressive at times, arrogant, manipulative and a "bully" but that he wasn't temperamental. At least two relatives told investigators the boy had threatened his father. One of Romero's cousins, Justin Romero, said he "did not put it beyond" the boy that he could have committed the crimes, given his ability to handle a gun.


One of Romero's uncles told investigators he also heard the boy make threatening remarks about his father. Paul Romero said he overheard the boy during a recent hunting trip say, "One day I'm going to kill him."

imo

[lurkinghere2]

So, this board has been moving so fast lately that I can't keep up! Comments have flown so quickly that by the time I have something to comment on, I'm something like 2 threads & 1500 posts behind! :rolleyes:

So, just to see if I'm up to speed.....
- We still have NO forensic evidence reported that would confirm this child's involvement.
- We still have lists of evidence that CIRCUMSTANTIALLY could suggest the boy, but after 3 1/2 months of reading and posting, quite frankly could CIRCUMSTANTIALLY suggest a shlew of other, too.
- The child has, thankfully, been released to the custody of his mother while the stay on his quick trial drags on.
- The competency hearing continues to be delayed -- after the higher court sent it back to Roca.
- We've had Big John fluctuate back & forth as to his OPINION as to the child's involvement.

- And, last, a public report which has to be purchased was released some time late Friday (which some posters here have elected to since purchase and have a bit more insight into the basis of the weekend reports -- but it can't yet be linked for others in full for free, right? I ask that 'cause I am cash poor). The media had a heyday with it before anyone else could gain access. New fingers are being pointed at the child, and the victims, for all sorts of potential implications -- which still only provide CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence or commentary relative to some person's interpretation.

But the real issue is that we still have NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE THAT PROVES ANYTHING AFTER 3 1/2 MONTHS, and really, we're all still speculating.

Does that about sum up where we are? If not, please direct me to anything different for clarification. I've been trying to keep up & reading all the links, honestly.

One thing I'm not "getting" is who this Nicole person is & when she came into the picture & what her relationship to CR's family is/was before, during and after all of this happening.

Many Thanks
:smile:

[dgfred]

I think that is a normal response from any defense attorney who is representing their client.

I don't see why anyone would say untruths about this boy. They have to all feel some guilt now that they never said anything but many times people will cast aside warning signs and may have thought it was just growing pains that would blow over.

I think it is common for some people to see someone one way and others see them another. The boy may have felt more comfortable among his family members and knew he could act up and nothing would really be done.

Excerpts:

Others said the boy was aggressive at times, arrogant, manipulative and a "bully" but that he wasn't temperamental. At least two relatives told investigators the boy had threatened his father. One of Romero's cousins, Justin Romero, said he "did not put it beyond" the boy that he could have committed the crimes, given his ability to handle a gun.


One of Romero's uncles told investigators he also heard the boy make threatening remarks about his father. Paul Romero said he overheard the boy during a recent hunting trip say, "One day I'm going to kill him."

imo

Funny you can post about something 'one of Romero's uncles told investigators' without proof if it shows badly on the boy- but stuff noted on the boy's side is not allowed. What is the problem with discussing both sides with causing problems and banning/deleting?
So the boy says 'one day I'm going to kill him'? Is that in a link?
Let's see then... leave him in the house all afternoon alone with guns/ammo/liquor so him and any kid friends can plan out the entire crime. He is manipulative and a bully. That doesn't even make sense. I understand you believe what you believe, but to belittle everyone else's opinionions and theories is just dirty pool. Pretty soon there is not going to be much discussion because some will not allow a two-way debate to get going without getting offended.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I think that is a normal response from any defense attorney who is representing their client.

I don't see why anyone would say untruths about this boy. They have to all feel some guilt now that they never said anything but many times people will cast aside warning signs and may have thought it was just growing pains that would blow over.

I think it is common for some people to see someone one way and others see them another. The boy may have felt more comfortable among his family members and knew he could act up and nothing would really be done.

Excerpts:

Others said the boy was aggressive at times, arrogant, manipulative and a "bully" but that he wasn't temperamental. At least two relatives told investigators the boy had threatened his father. One of Romero's cousins, Justin Romero, said he "did not put it beyond" the boy that he could have committed the crimes, given his ability to handle a gun.


One of Romero's uncles told investigators he also heard the boy make threatening remarks about his father. Paul Romero said he overheard the boy during a recent hunting trip say, "One day I'm going to kill him."

imo

But if it was anything more than typical frustrated words from an eight year old boy ... don't you think something more would have been done or said short of a slap across the face?

Obviously there were no concerns at the time ... or at the very least, guns and ammo would have been locked up.

Recollections after the fact are easily embellished to fit the circumstances

I must add ... just because CR was "proficient" enough to shoot squirrels and prairie dogs, does not mean he was proficient enough to take down two grown men in broad daylight

[GentleBreeze]

So the boy says 'one day I'm going to kill him'? Is that in a link?



Yes, it is in the link already provided.

Here is the link again.


http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

[GentleBreeze]

But if it was anything more than typical frustrated words from an eight year old boy ... don't you think something more would have been done or said short of a slap across the face?

Obviously there were no concerns at the time ... or at the very least, guns and ammo would have been locked up.

Recollections after the fact are easily embellished to fit the circumstances

I must add ... just because CR was "proficient" enough to shoot squirrels and prairie dogs, does not mean he was proficient enough to take down two grown men in broad daylight

It doesn't take proficiency and skill to hit a much larger target within a few feet from them.

All of this happened within 24 feet of the home concerning Tim, not yards away when shooting a rabbit or prairie dog and with Vincent he was probably even closer than that, when he shot his father. No hard task at all imo, especially when neither victim had a weapon to defend themselves or even knew this was going to happen to them.

Seems typical to me. Even other posters have said their own child has threated to kill them and they scoffed it off. IIRC, one did said that the father did slap the child up against his head to get his attention, but not hard. I don't think they ran out and got help but just thought the child would get over the anger they felt.

JMO

[dgfred]

Yes, it is in the link already provided.

Here is the link again.


http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

It also said he wasn't sure what exactly was said, shoot or kill. But still they leave guns/ammo readily available to a 'capable' boy for long periods of time that had threatened his father more than once. Doesn't even make sense. Do you actually still believe this scenario? Or are you just trying to keep the debate going?

The efficiency with the gun still doesn't change the fact that the bolt-action .22 wouldn't do in this situation. I am chomping at the bit waiting for proof that it wasn't the murder weapon, then we can really have some good discussions... I hope.

[Crispy]

There are new transcripts up on the court site.

[Aradia5]

It also said he wasn't sure what exactly was said, shoot or kill. But still they leave guns/ammo readily available to a 'capable' boy for long periods of time that had threatened his father more than once. Doesn't even make sense. Do you actually still believe this scenario? Or are you just trying to keep the debate going?

The efficiency with the gun still doesn't change the fact that the bolt-action .22 wouldn't do in this situation. I am chomping at the bit waiting for proof that it wasn't the murder weapon, then we can really have some good discussions... I hope.
From that link:

Stevie Romero, another of Romero's cousins, said that during a family reunion in August, the boy had threatened to either shoot or kill his dad, but that the statement was made out of anger, according to documents.

"How dare you say that?" the cousin quoted Vincent Romero as saying as the boy ran off.

-----------
Oh they left off that his father promply smacked him in the face. :rolleyes:

[GentleBreeze]

From that link:

Stevie Romero, another of Romero's cousins, said that during a family reunion in August, the boy had threatened to either shoot or kill his dad, but that the statement was made out of anger, according to documents.

"How dare you say that?" the cousin quoted Vincent Romero as saying as the boy ran off.

-----------
Oh they left off that his father promply smacked him in the face. :rolleyes:

They did? :confused:

Paul Romero said his nephew was upset with the boy for an unknown reason and responded by slapping him. The documents don't say when the hunting trip took place.

[Jacobtk]

I don't see why anyone would say untruths about this boy.

There are plenty of reasons why, starting with their attempt to explain why the boy would be charged with these crimes if he did not commit them. Brewer's comments are not just typical of defense attorneys. The same thing was said by the prosecutor in the Cody Posey case. Half a dozen people came forward stating that they saw Cody's father, step-mother and sister abusing him after the boy was charged with triple homicide. The logical question is why those people never stepped forward before being contacted by the defense. The same thing hold true in this case. Why did none of these people step forward immediately after the shootings were reported?

Having read the newly released transcripts (http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/) from that last two hearings, it sounds like Brewer and Wood never got the chance to interview these witnesses because the state gave them redacted reports (presumably the same thing the state released to the public).

As for the comments made by the relatives, I would like to know the exact situation that occurred, not just the snippets that were reported in the article. I would like to know exactly what went on during the horseshoe game and the hunting trip, i.e. the context of the statements. Were they arguing? Were they fighting? Was Vincent generally angry at that time? Was the boy upset about something? I will go so far as to accept the comments were made, but I would like to know more than just that the boy said those things.

[Jacobtk]

It also said he wasn't sure what exactly was said, shoot or kill. But still they leave guns/ammo readily available to a 'capable' boy for long periods of time that had threatened his father more than once. Doesn't even make sense. Do you actually still believe this scenario? Or are you just trying to keep the debate going?

No, it does not make sense and that is part of the problem. All of these threats supposedly took place while Vincent was teaching his son how to shoot. If the threats were serious, i.e. the boy really intended to kill his father, not just say something he knew would hurt his father (which is typically why children say such things), then it implies a serious lack of observation on Vincent's and Tiffany's and the boy's whole family's part. It also implies that something else happened between the boy and his father, because simply being an only child, slightly overconfident and perhaps arrogant does not make the boy a murderer.

[GentleBreeze]

There are plenty of reasons why, starting with their attempt to explain why the boy would be charged with these crimes if he did not commit them. Brewer's comments are not just typical of defense attorneys. The same thing was said by the prosecutor in the Cody Posey case. Half a dozen people came forward stating that they saw Cody's father, step-mother and sister abusing him after the boy was charged with triple homicide. The logical question is why those people never stepped forward before being contacted by the defense. The same thing hold true in this case. Why did none of these people step forward immediately after the shootings were reported?

Having read the newly released transcripts (http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/) from that last two hearings, it sounds like Brewer and Wood never got the chance to interview these witnesses because the state gave them redacted reports (presumably the same thing the state released to the public).

As for the comments made by the relatives, I would like to know the exact situation that occurred, not just the snippets that were reported in the article. I would like to know exactly what went on during the horseshoe game and the hunting trip, i.e. the context of the statements. Were they arguing? Were they fighting? Was Vincent generally angry at that time? Was the boy upset about something? I will go so far as to accept the comments were made, but I would like to know more than just that the boy said those things.

None of the witnesses are bound by law to give an interview to the defense if they don't want to, are they?

I have nothing to base it on that anyone is lying that gave their statements to police. Not what was said about Vinnie, Tim or the boy.

imo

[Details]

Killing people is a ton harder than killing prairie dogs and rabbits - ask any soldier. Little animals are too small to fight back, one hit kills them. People - one shot may not kill them, they can fight back, and they're a lot stronger than a little boy. Reloading 10 times isn't needed for little animals. For Tim, definitely, likely for his father as well - the first shot did not incapacitate. Somehow he had to reload and get off a next shot, precisely aimed, to take the men down, in his father's case before he can so much as struggle or move.

None of this makes sense. Nor does an ability to shoot a small animal show the type of exceptional ability needed to kill two men in the way the police claim they were killed.

[JD1974]

None of the witnesses are bound by law to give an interview to the defense if they don't want to, are they?

I have nothing to base it on that anyone is lying that gave their statements to police. Not what was said about Vinnie, Tim or the boy.

imo


Both sides get to interview witnesses, not just the side that will call them.

[GentleBreeze]

Both sides get to interview witnesses, not just the side that will call them.

Oh, thanks.

I didn't know that was the rule in Arizona.

I know I have seen witnesses testify in other trials and it was brought up when they were on the stand that they had refused to speak with the defense attorney.

I didn't think they would be bound by law to do so.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Killing people is a ton harder than killing prairie dogs and rabbits - ask any soldier. Little animals are too small to fight back, one hit kills them. People - one shot may not kill them, they can fight back, and they're a lot stronger than a little boy. Reloading 10 times isn't needed for little animals. For Tim, definitely, likely for his father as well - the first shot did not incapacitate. Somehow he had to reload and get off a next shot, precisely aimed, to take the men down, in his father's case before he can so much as struggle or move.

None of this makes sense. Nor does an ability to shoot a small animal show the type of exceptional ability needed to kill two men in the way the police claim they were killed.

I don't agree. Shooting at small game, which are very nimble and much quicker than a human being, from at least 75 feet or more away takes a much better shooter and aim. Small animals are not just shot once every time. They can be shot again if the animal was only wounded or grazed. The small game shooter has to be ready to shoot again in case the first shot does not bring the small game animal down.

Taking them down wasn't hard imo. He had the edge. Total surprise attack, right out of the blue, with seconds for them to react before being hit again. No victim can outrun bullets or fight back, especially when they would know no matter which way they turned they would be hit again. The shooter had the advantage. He had the only weapon and he kept his distance and in between that distance and the victims was a barrel of a gun that kills.

imoo

[Details]

He didn't keep much of any distance - and a rabbit - he doesn't have to be afraid the rabbit will kill him. He was in close quarters, look at the location of the shell casings - he was right on top of them for all but one shot.

[GentleBreeze]

He didn't keep much of any distance - and a rabbit - he doesn't have to be afraid the rabbit will kill him. He was in close quarters, look at the location of the shell casings - he was right on top of them for all but one shot.

I don't think we can really determine exactly where he was standing when he shot each time just by where he ejected the casings.

That only shows were he most likely ejected the spent casing to reload.

Now the shots once they were both incapacitated and down for the count would have happened closer because he would know they weren't trying to get up anymore.

Just like the one caught in the threshold of the doorway. He most likely reloaded there to shoot at Tim when he was first trying to come to the boy's aide.

But the casing location only tells where he ejected the spent casing at the time not where the original location was when he fired it imo.

And because Tim wound up on the porch where the spent casings were ejected doesn't mean that he was right up at him every time he shot him. Imo the casings were being ejected when Tim was first shot and he was around 24 feet away from the shooter then.

imoo

[mrrogers]

I don't agree. Shooting at small game, which are very nimble and much quicker than a human being, from at least 75 feet or more away takes a much better shooter and aim. Small animals are not just shot once every time. They can be shot again if the animal was only wounded or grazed. The small game shooter has to be ready to shoot again in case the first shot does not bring the small game animal down.

Taking them down wasn't hard imo. He had the edge. Total surprise attack, right out of the blue, with seconds for them to react before being hit again. No victim can outrun bullets or fight back, especially when they would know no matter which way they turned they would be hit again. The shooter had the advantage. He had the only weapon and he kept his distance and in between that distance and the victims was a barrel of a gun that kills.

imoo

everyone is braggin about what a good shot cr is. well one of his reletives leroy romero i beleive., bragged that at a family gathering
cr hit 3 out 5 targets, that works out to a 60 percent average.
whle 3 out of 5 isnt bad for a boy his age. it still leaves considerable room for improvement:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Details]

Yep, when I talk about what a good artist my little girl is - I'm not saying she can draw Mona Lisa - I'm saying she can draw a circle. Saying a kid is good at something always includes the concept that they're good at it, for their age.

[GentleBreeze]

everyone is braggin about what a good shot cr is. well one of his relatives leroy romero i believe., bragged that at a family gathering
cr hit 3 out 5 targets, that works out to a 60 percent average.
whale 3 out of 5 isn't bad for a boy his age. it still leaves considerable room for improvement:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Oh really? I havent read that? Do you have a link?

But if what you say is true............

Wow that is pretty good.

Now here he only had to hit two MUCH LARGER TARGETS.

And I betcha he wasn't right up on the target at the gathering either.

imoo

[Aradia5]

everyone is braggin about what a good shot cr is. well one of his reletives leroy romero i beleive., bragged that at a family gathering
cr hit 3 out 5 targets, that works out to a 60 percent average.
whle 3 out of 5 isnt bad for a boy his age. it still leaves considerable room for improvement:thumbsup::thumbsup:

LOL :thumbsup:

[dgfred]

The initial shot is not what is being argued, it is the ejecting, loading, shooting, moving and so on that is 'almost' beyond believing that an almost 9yr old to do while holding extra shells in his hand or pocket. There is no way to actually see that scenario playing out in one's mind if they really think it over. In my opinion of course!

[mrrogers]

Oh really? I havent read that? Do you have a link?

But if what you say is true............

Wow that is pretty good.

Now here he only had to hit two MUCH LARGER TARGETS.

And I betcha he wasn't right up on the target at the gathering either.

imoo
ill have to look for it ive read so much stuff its all one big glob
but i wouldnt post it unless i remembered it from somewhere
since most of filings are just court stuff i think i read it in the 100
pages i got from apache county which was done with the help of az
dept of public safety who did all the interviewing after sjpd requested assistance and dropped the ball titled
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
DR #2008-062500
SAINT JOHNS POLICE DEPARTMENT
FIRST DEGREE MURDER (2)

[mrrogers]

Oh really? I havent read that? Do you have a link?

But if what you say is true............

Wow that is pretty good.

Now here he only had to hit two MUCH LARGER TARGETS.

And I betcha he wasn't right up on the target at the gathering either.

imoo
ill have to look for it ive read so much stuff its all one big glob
but i wouldnt post it unless i remembered it from somewhere
since most of filings are just court stuff i think i read it in the 100
pages i got from apache county which was done with the help of az
dept of public safety who did all the interviewing after sjpd requested assistance and dropped the ball titled
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
DR #2008-062500
SAINT JOHNS POLICE DEPARTMENT
FIRST DEGREE MURDER (2)

[TaraCrazyHair]

Oh really? I havent read that? Do you have a link?

But if what you say is true............

Wow that is pretty good.

Now here he only had to hit two MUCH LARGER TARGETS.

And I betcha he wasn't right up on the target at the gathering either.

imoo

Major difference when your target is a grown man, a few feet taller with at least a 100 pound advantage.

Couple that with it being your father ... emotions come into play that would take off any sense of accuracy and realizing you just shot a human being, to have the ability to go and shoot down another grown man

Not exactly target practice with prairie dogs ...


Even grown men who go to war have a hard time dealing with the fact they killed another human being ... despite how many deer they may have killed during hunting season

Hardly the same and we are talking about a child!

Who has never shown a single sign of being a demented sociopath with cold blooded vengeance as his motive

And short of his grandmother who said if anyone was capable of this it was him .. and I have yet to read her reasoning for that statement

[Annie143]

i'm a pretty good shoot with a bolt action 22, squirrel hunter, etc, and so was my husband (excellent hunter since young age) and we both found it hard to believe an 8 year old boy could have done this. JMO

[mrrogers]

when i was 13 i went deer hunting with my dad, anyway i saw what i thought was a deer i took aim and flipped the safety off,then as i prepared to fire for some reason, i saw what i was aiming at appeared to be a human so i looked again and it looked like a deer. so i thought, what the heck ill pull the trigger so as looked and zeroed in on the target thru the scope it would look likke a man then a deer. i thought well its probably a deer ill just shoot. then the thought of WHAT IF IT IS A MAN
entered my head. after some considerable hesitation i put the safety back on and walked away freaking out at the possiblity that i could have and almost did shoot another human
"personal experience"

[dgfred]

i'm a pretty good shoot with a bolt action 22, squirrel hunter, etc, and so was my husband (excellent hunter since young age) and we both found it hard to believe an 8 year old boy could have done this. JMO

That is exactly what we have been saying :thumbsup: . Good shooting really has nothing to do with the difficulty in loading/shooting/ejecting/GETTING NEXT SHELL FROM HAND OR POCKET/moving/loading/and on to ten in at least semi-stressful situation. In my opinion it is just about impossible.

[GentleBreeze]

Major difference when your target is a grown man, a few feet taller with at least a 100 pound advantage.

Couple that with it being your father ... emotions come into play that would take off any sense of accuracy and realizing you just shot a human being, to have the ability to go and shoot down another grown man

Not exactly target practice with prairie dogs ...


Even grown men who go to war have a hard time dealing with the fact they killed another human being ... despite how many deer they may have killed during hunting season

Hardly the same and we are talking about a child!

Who has never shown a single sign of being a demented sociopath with cold blooded vengeance as his motive

And short of his grandmother who said if anyone was capable of this it was him .. and I have yet to read her reasoning for that statement

We don't know his mindset that day if he was the shooter. He may have felt no more of an adrenaline rush than he did when shooting an animal. We just don't know but his family certainly thinks he is capable with this gun and doing these acts. Since more than likely they have seen him in action with the gun I do think they know much more about him than we do.

If he had already determined to do this like he said he was then maybe the anxiety was gone and it was nothing more than a mission to accomplish it, with a weapon he knew very easy how to shoot and handle.

And what were these men to do that had a 100 pound advantage when they only had seconds to react before being hit again and again. I find it far fetched for some to believe these men should possess some super human powers against bullets being fired at them all within a few seconds of each other. Advance toward him, after getting over the shock of seeing his own son standing there, knowing that the next bullet could hit him in the front or the back? The same with Tim, what was he to do when he had no weapon? Fly through the air 24 feet and land on the suspect that had the weapon loaded again.

None of these shots were fired at close range to the victims except the close up shot to Tim's head. Distance and a loaded gun pointed at someone is a tremendous advantage especially when the victims have no weapons themselves.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

We don't know his mindset that day if he was the shooter. He may have felt no more of an adrenaline rush than he did when shooting an animal. We just don't know but his family certainly thinks he is capable with this gun and doing these acts. Since more than likely they have seen him in action with the gun I do think they know much more about him than we do.

If he had already determined to do this like he said he was then maybe the anxiety was gone and it was nothing more than a mission to accomplish it, with a weapon he knew very easy how to shoot and handle.

And what were these men to do that had a 100 pound advantage when they only had seconds to react before being hit again and again. I find it far fetched for some to believe these men should possess some super human powers against bullets being fired at them all within a few seconds of each other. Advance toward him, after getting over the shock of seeing his own son standing there, knowing that the next bullet could hit him in the front or the back? The same with Tim, what was he to do when he had no weapon? Fly through the air 24 feet and land on the suspect that had the weapon loaded again.

None of these shots were fired at close range to the victims except the close up shot to Tim's head. Distance and a loaded gun pointed at someone is a tremendous advantage especially when the victims have no weapons themselves.

imoo

He was not shooting at them with a semi automatic

Have you ever seen what a chipmunk rifle looks like?

It is basically a toy gun!

And while I am not sure of the velocity of the Chipmunk, I am pretty sure that unless the first shot fired was fatal or extremely incapacitating .. then VR could have reacted enough to lunge at the boy, stunning him during the reload which would have taken a few seconds at the very least

Grown men have been shot by higher caliber guns and had movement ... why so different here?

I found this picture which certainly gives me an idea of what CR would look like with his gun ... and it is not very intimidating to me

The gun in the picture is the Cricket which is almost exactly like the Chipmunk

http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/kidshooting/kid-shooting.html

[GentleBreeze]

He was not shooting at them with a semi automatic

Have you ever seen what a chipmunk rifle looks like?

It is basically a toy gun!

And while I am not sure of the velocity of the Chipmunk, I am pretty sure that unless the first shot fired was fatal or extremely incapacitating .. then VR could have reacted enough to lunge at the boy, stunning him during the reload which would have taken a few seconds at the very least

Grown men have been shot by higher caliber guns and had movement ... why so different here?

I found this picture which certainly gives me an idea of what CR would look like with his gun ... and it is not very intimidating to me

The gun in the picture is the Cricket which is almost exactly like the Chipmunk

http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/kidshooting/kid-shooting.html

Yes, I have seen this type of gun. I was shooting this type of gun when I was 7 years old.

I wish I didn't think him capable of this, Tara, but I do think he did do this.

The gun is meant to be easy, that is why it is specifically made for youths who have smaller hands, fingers and less weight. This gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds iirc. It isn't a heavy clumsy weapon. It is as easy as pie to shoot, even for a child, maybe even more so due to it being on a smaller scale than an adult model.

It doesn't matter how intimidating it looks. It had .22 bullets and .22s have killed many people and animals. He knew that and so did the victims.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

None of the witnesses are bound by law to give an interview to the defense if they don't want to, are they?

As was stated before, both sides get to interview witnesses. A person can refuse to testify for one side, but that person can be subpoenaed if either side can demonstrate the necessity of the person's testimony. If the witnesses refuse to be interviewed by either side, then at trial the attorney could bring that issue up in open court and compel the person to answer the questions. Should any of the witnesses the state interviewed refuse to speak with Brewer or Wood it would look incredibly suspicious.

I have nothing to base it on that anyone is lying that gave their statements to police. Not what was said about Vinnie, Tim or the boy.

The problem is that you have no reason to believe anyone is telling the truth either because you are only getting a snippet of whatever is in the report which is more likely than not redacted. Nothing reported in the news is in context. The same would be true if the defense were able to release anything that pointed to someone else. Unless they released the complete text, it would not matter what snippet they tossed out there because anything can sound exonerating or incriminating when taken out of context.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Yes, I have seen this type of gun. I was shooting this type of gun when I was 7 years old.

I wish I didn't think him capable of this, Tara, but I do think he did do this.

The gun is meant to be easy, that is why it is specifically made for youths who have smaller hands, fingers and less weight. This gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds iirc. It isn't a heavy clumsy weapon. It is as easy as pie to shoot, even for a child, maybe even more so due to it being on a smaller scale than an adult model.

imoo

But the visual does not allow for instant death or even complete incapacitation

It especially would not have stopped VR from shouting .. loud enough for TR to hear him

Especially since Tanya heard the boy from the cell phone conversation while he was still in the truck

Sorry ... I cannot get my head around a little boy with a little gun being capable of firing off all those shots, single load, killing two men in the span of 11 minutes and being able to accomplish it

It does not compute ....

I would love to understand how it does for you?

[Jacobtk]

The gun is meant to be easy, that is why it is specifically made for youths who have smaller hands, fingers and less weight. This gun only weighs around 2.5 pounds iirc. It isn't a heavy clumsy weapon. It is as easy as pie to shoot, even for a child, maybe even more so due to it being on a smaller scale than an adult model.

It does not matter whether the weapon is easy to use. What matters is whether the boy had the skill to do what was done in the extremely short amount of time the shootings occurred in. I doubt that when hunting someone just spots an animal, loads the gun and shoots. Hunting means tracking the animal and waiting for a good shot. A person can be very good at doing something when he has the time to prepare to do and very bad at doing something when he has to do it on the fly. Since the shootings happened rather quickly, the question is whether the boy had the skill to shoot moving targets while rapidly reloading and aiming in a handful of seconds. That seems unlikely.

[TaraCrazyHair]

It does not matter whether the weapon is easy to use. What matters is whether the boy had the skill to do what was done in the extremely short amount of time the shootings occurred in. I doubt that when hunting someone just spots an animal, loads the gun and shoots. Hunting means tracking the animal and waiting for a good shot. A person can be very good at doing something when he has the time to prepare to do and very bad at doing something when he has to do it on the fly. Since the shootings happened rather quickly, the question is whether the boy had the skill to shoot moving targets while rapidly reloading and aiming in a handful of seconds. That seems unlikely.

And unless he had ice water running through his veins .. he would be doing all that with tears coming out of his eyes

[GentleBreeze]

But the visual does not allow for instant death or even complete incapacitation

It especially would not have stopped VR from shouting .. loud enough for TR to hear him

Especially since Tanya heard the boy from the cell phone conversation while he was still in the truck

Sorry ... I cannot get my head around a little boy with a little gun being capable of firing off all those shots, single load, killing two men in the span of 11 minutes and being able to accomplish it

It does not compute ....

I would love to understand how it does for you?

OMG! After three months, I just don't know if I can go through all the steps again. lol And I am in the middle of preparing my dinner.

But what you are saying is really trying to read tealeaves, Tara. Since none of us were there, we cant say with any certainty that the victim would/could/should have done this or that.

We also cant say that the shots wouldn't have incapacitated them early on. I don't think the shot to Tim's arm incapacitated him but imo he was 24 feet away when that happened to him right out of the blue. Beyond that we do not know if the next shot dropped him to his knees and then when he tried to stand back up is when he was shot again making him stagger forward and collapse on the porch and then repeatedly shot in the head. We just don't know exactly how all of these events happened. Only the killer knows for sure.

I don't think the first shot to Vinnie incapacitated him but I do think within 4-5 seconds of being shot again, he began to stagger forward collapsing. I believe at that time, the shooter was below him as Vinnie climbed the stairs. By the location of Vinnie's body he tried to go up the stairs, maybe to flee, again we don't know but he never made it or turned around. He was shot and killed all within the stairwell area.

A .22 rifle is a gun meant for long range of at least 25-30 yards away or more but if the long gun is shot in a close proximity and hits something, then it is much more lethal.

It was in the 50s that day with wind gust up to 33 mph. I believe when Vinnie went in he closed the door to make sure the heat did not escape out of the home. When he was shot and possibly dead is when I think the boy opened the door back up to yell at Tim. He would have to yell loud enough for Tim to hear him because Tim was sitting inside his truck with the passenger door cracked talking on the phone.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

I dont think the door had to be open for a voice to carry

I live where homes are insulated for protection and in the winter months I can hear a loud shout or a dog bark from outdoors with doors and windows shut

And if you have shot a chipmunk rifle .. then you would know the timing sequence is a bit off for CR to have accomplished what he allegedly did

[GentleBreeze]

It does not matter whether the weapon is easy to use. What matters is whether the boy had the skill to do what was done in the extremely short amount of time the shootings occurred in. I doubt that when hunting someone just spots an animal, loads the gun and shoots. Hunting means tracking the animal and waiting for a good shot. A person can be very good at doing something when he has the time to prepare to do and very bad at doing something when he has to do it on the fly. Since the shootings happened rather quickly, the question is whether the boy had the skill to shoot moving targets while rapidly reloading and aiming in a handful of seconds. That seems unlikely.

Well that is your opinion and certainly not mine and we both are entitled to have our own.

Oh yes, it does matter that the gun is easy to use and this was this boy's very gun and he said he was easy to shoot, which it is. Previously shooting and knowing the gun is a tremendous advantage.

The gun is already loaded when trying to spot small game. No, they don't spot the animal first then wait to load and when they shoot they immediately reload in case the first shot did not kill the animal outright.

There may be a question for you but there certainly isn't any in my mind.

I have hunted all my life and still do to this day. I had no problem then or now moving around, in order to take the best shots to hit my target even if the target moved or was moving to begin with and I have used a single bolt action rifle to do so countless times.

8 minutes is a very long time to shoot a single shot rifle 10 times even having the casing automatically eject and reloading.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

I don't think the door had to be open for a voice to carry

I live where homes are insulated for protection and in the winter months I can hear a loud shout or a dog bark from outdoors with doors and windows shut

And if you have shot a chipmunk rifle .. then you would know the timing sequence is a bit off for CR to have accomplished what he allegedly did

In most cases ear witnesses can be off on how many shots they heard. The bullet casings tells the tale anyway.

The neighbors account of hearing the shots are very consistent with a single shot bolt action rifle that would have a "pop" and "delay".

An automatic or semi automatic would have been a rapid burst of gunfire, one after the other. Not a delay between shots. The 5 second delay is enough time for the spent casing to be ejected and the gun reloaded and fired again. It all lines up with a single shot imo.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

In most cases ear witnesses can be off on how many shots they heard. The bullet casings tells the tale anyway.

The neighbors account of hearing the shots are very consistent with a single shot bolt action rifle that would have a "pop" and "delay".

An automatic or semi automatic would have been a rapid burst of gunfire, one after the other. Not a delay between shots. The 5 second delay is enough time for the spent casing to be ejected and the gun reloaded and fired again. It all lines up with a single shot imo.

imoo

If I recollect right, the one neighbor said it sounded like a paintball gun

There would be no delays of seconds .. it would be "pop pop pop"

Can CR reload that quickly to be a "pop pop pop" or would it be a "pop" silence "pop" silence "pop"?

[TaraCrazyHair]

pop...silence...pop...silence...pop silence


Hmmmm

Well then it was a gun that "popped" as quickly as a paintball gun

That could not be the chipmunk

(shrug)

At least according to the neighbor who claimed to hear the pops

[GentleBreeze]

If I recollect right, the one neighbor said it sounded like a paint ball gun

There would be no delays of seconds .. it would be "pop pop pop"

Can CR reload that quickly to be a "pop pop pop" or would it be a "pop" silence "pop" silence "pop"?

They may have thought the shots came from a paint ball gun. I am sure their minds weren't in tune with it being a firearm and of course it wasn't a paintball gun they heard.

A youth model rifle makes a popping sound when fired, it is not loud at all.

The neighbors said that after each shot there was a delay or pause in between. I would feel they gave an estimate of time for the delay in their statement to LE and just guessing I would think it would be around 5 seconds.

There would be no delay at all if a semi or automatic had been used.

There would be if it was a single shot bolt action rifle.

imo

[TaraCrazyHair]

They may have thought the shots came from a paint ball gun. I am sure their minds weren't in tune with it being a firearm and of course it wasn't a paintball gun they heard.

A youth model rifle makes a popping sound when fired, it is not loud at all.

The neighbors said that after each shot there was a delay or pause in between. I would feel they gave an estimate of time for the delay in their statement to LE and just guessing I would think it would be around 5 seconds.

There would be no delay at all if a semi or automatic had been used.

There would be if it was a single shot bolt action rifle.

imo

Unless I misread -- the one neighbor said "Like a paintball gun"

That is "pop pop pop"

[Jacobtk]

Oh yes, it does matter that the gun is easy to use and this was this boy's very gun and he said he was easy to shoot, which it is. Previously shooting and knowing the gun is a tremendous advantage.

Guns are by their very nature relatively easy to use. That is why they are the top weapon choice for cowards. It takes little skill to point and shoot, which is all the boy would have to do in order to hunt or to have committed this crime. It takes no real skill to kill another living creature, besides a certain lack of empathy unless one intends on eating what one kills.

If you contend that it does take some skill to aim and hit a moving target, particularly one that might fight back, then the issue of the boy's knowledge of the weapon is immaterial. It is his ability to do what he is accused of doing that is important. Not just whether the boy can pick up a gun, aim when he has time to wait for his shot and hit his target, but whether he has the mentality to kill two people for apparently no reason and whether he has the control and skill to hit moving targets in more or less the same spot after each reload.

8 minutes is a very long time to shoot a single shot rifle 10 times even having the casing automatically eject and reloading.

The boy could not have taken 8 minutes to shoot both men because it is unlikely that either men would not have heard the shots, particularly given that the front door was open and apparently Romans could hear the boy shouting from inside the house (the boy's voice would not be louder than a gun shot). Likewise, that length of a delay would have been noticeable to the one neighbor who claims to have heard 3 or 4 shots. However, I thought it was 11 minutes that the boy had. When did the time line shorten?

[TaraCrazyHair]

The neighbor said there was a delay in between each shot.


No the neighbor said it sounded like a paint ball gun

I never read he heard delays

I could be wrong ... I will give you that

But I remember paint ball gun pop pop pop

[Jacobtk]

In most cases ear witnesses can be off on how many shots they heard. The bullet casings tells the tale anyway.

If a person can be off about how many shots were heard, cannot the person also be off about the delay?

An automatic or semi automatic would have been a rapid burst of gunfire, one after the other. Not a delay between shots.

A semi-automatic gun simply auto-loads another round. The gun fires one bullet with each pull of the trigger, so it can be fired as quickly or as slowly as a person wants.

As for the time, there is no way to know that unless the person gave a specific time frame. Otherwise, five seconds is just speculation and in the context of the wounds Romans received it would be too long a time for him to receive two downward angled shots to the chest. By that time he would have fell after the round bounced around in his body.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I believe Tim never heard the shots, I think the front door was shut until the boy opened it to call for Tim. (after he shot his father)

Apparently, THIS boy had whatever was needed to shoot and kill not only his own father but another man as well.

imo

Do you believe VR never attempted to cry out for help?

The first shot was not a fatal one

He knew TR was waiting outside

[Annie143]

We just don't know but his family certainly thinks he is capable with this gun and doing these acts. Since more than likely they have seen him in action with the gun I do think they know much more about him than we do. {snipped} imoo Gentle Breeze, I dont know if you have ever done much hunting or handled a bolt action but from personal experience and from someone ten times more expierenced than myself, it is hard to concieve and, especially for an 8 year old. Regardless of what the relatives say, common sense must count for something and the experience of those with an unbias knowledge of guns

Sorry, just saw your post that you are very familar with rifles/guns ? Still do not see how he could have done it though. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

If a person can be off about how many shots were heard, cannot the person also be off about the delay?



A semi-automatic gun simply auto-loads another round. The gun fires one bullet with each pull of the trigger, so it can be fired as quickly or as slowly as a person wants.

As for the time, there is no way to know that unless the person gave a specific time frame. Otherwise, five seconds is just speculation and in the context of the wounds Romans received it would be too long a time for him to receive two downward angled shots to the chest. By that time he would have fell after the round bounced around in his body.

The cell phone time line will be accurate and it is going to coincide with the witnesses imo. Its all going to fit with the boy being the shooter.

I think 5 seconds is a good estimation. I believe the firearm expert will agree. I believe it will be proved to have happened in the amount of time allotted.

Much more leeway for a 5 second shot anyway. He only shot 10 times in approximately 8 minutes. So it leaves him time to maneuver around to take shots from the best angle to both men and luring Tim to come in to pick him off like a sitting duck, using the ivy bushes as a blind imo. Tim nor Vinnie had any more of a chance than those rabbits or prairie dogs did.

Again I do not agree with any of your theories. They are far fetched imo. You try to make everything drawn out and complex, which it wasn't IMOO.

Very doable. Very and in the alloted time.

I think there are witnesses who saw this boy shortly after the crimes and they have come forward or been interrogated by now. I think there are even more witnesses that know things about this boy. I think he was a darned good shot and very gun savvy.

No it wouldn't. You nor I don't know what position Tim placed his body in after being shot in the arm. I doubt he just remained erect still casually walking upright toward the house. Imo he was in a crouching position bring his body down lower and when shot in the chest he may have gone down on one knee and then when getting up again he was struck again before he was fully on his feet again. Both shots would be at a downward angle.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Doesn't matter if he did. No one heard him. Well....except the boy if he did try to call out.

imo

Yeah, I doubt we will ever know what happened fully but Vincent never seem to even turnaround. He died face down on those steps he was climbing up.

So sad.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

The cell phone time line will be accurate and it is going to coincide with the witnesses imo. Its all going to fit with the boy being the shooter.

I would suggest reading the DPS report if you have it.

Again I do not agree with any of your theories. They are far fetched imo. You try to make everything drawn out and complex, which it wasn't IMOO.

It is called reason and logic. The use of a semi-automatic weapon does not make the situation complex. The idea that Romans was shot first does not make the situation complex. The notion that someone other than the boy does not make the situation complex. It is the process of elimination that ought to occur in investigations, which did not in the case (and the DPS investigation, as was reported in the media, apparently did not include looking at other suspects).

Of course, it is easier to assume a child with no history of violence and no reason for harming anyone would kill two adults just as it is easier to believe a Hispanic babysitter kidnapped a little girl and held her without requesting ransom for thirty days just as it is easier to believe a boy kidnapped and held for four and half years remained with his kidnapper because he liked not going to school and playing videogames than it is to objectively look at all possibilities and rule out the ones that do not work.

Just because an answer is simple or easy to come to does not mean it is correct. After all, it is easy to believe the reason for the boy killing both men is because they were physically or sexually abusing him, yet you dismiss that outright.

I doubt he just remained erect still casually walking upright toward the house. Imo he was in a crouching position bring his body down lower and when shot in the chest he may have gone down on one knee and then when getting up again he was struck again before he was fully on his feet again. Both shots would be at a downward angle.

You just stated that you could not know what position Romans body was in, yet above you presume to know what position his body was in. At any rate, what reason would he have to crouch down to one knee before being shot and why would he stand after being shot twice in the chest? If he was shot before couching, why are all the shots consistent with being fired at a downward angle (the forearm wound appears the match the angle if the arm were being held up by the chest)? The boy is not taller than Romans, so how would be manage that? It makes more sense that he was standing when he was shot in the chest and then turned to head inside the home.

[GentleBreeze]

Lots of criminals have no violent history and they made it a lot further in age than this boy. So no priors are immaterial in this case. The defendant is only 9. There are many cases that have been discussed right here were a convicted defendant had no priors at all throughout their entire life. Some even made it into their 60s or older without a blemish before the ultimate act of homicide.

I am not so sure this child was as good as some try to claim. I think some have seen him in a very different light than others.

I speculate. You tend to post like you think it is the gospel imo when it is just merely speculation at best too. I do believe he was first hit in the forearm and I think he went into protection mode as much as he could being in the wide open space after then and lowered his body. The first shot to the chest could have made him collapse down on his knees, reeling and momentarily stunned from the pain in his chest and when he tried to get on his feet he was shot again before he could. Both shots would have been at a downward angle if when first hit in the chest he was in a crouching posture and was on his knees when was shot again. I don't think the first shot to his chest was a fatal shot but the second one was imo and he then stumbled forward onto the porch and collapsed and after then his head was used as target practice.

I have no clue what you are talking about with the semi automatic subject and it being complex. I never mentioned that semi automatics are complex. It wasn't even complex when using a pea shooter, it was very doable.



imoo

[Jacobtk]

Lots of criminals have no violent history and they made it a lot further in age than this boy.

The overwhelming majority do, particularly the younger the offender. There is generally something in the person's background that would point to the person's potential behavior and usually something more than a person being smart and an only child.

As for people viewing the boy in a less than positive light, that can be said of everyone. I know several people who thought (and continue to think) very little of me, particularly when I was a child. I am certain that if I were accused of anything they would come forward and say any number of negative things. That there are people who do not particularly like me and will use random comments I have made against does not prove anything, particularly if those people only come forward when interviewed, not of their own volition.

The problem with you scenario is there is a bullet hole going from the outside to the inside of the home, meaning the shot was fired with Romans between the shooter and the door. We know the boy is not taller than Romans and the shot to the arm, if it were raised, appears to have the same downward angle. Just following this, it would imply the boy called Romans, walked outside and waited for Romans to stand in front of the house before opening fire, none of which Romans noticed (along with the four shots from inside the home).

You stated that a semi-automatic could not be the murder weapon because it fires fast. However, a semi-automatic weapon only auto-loads the rounds. It can be fired at whatever speed the shooter wishes. As for the complex comment, you stated that I was trying to make the crime more complex. Suggesting that a semi-automatic weapon was used does not make the crime more complex, it only suggests that perhaps the boy was not the shooter. If that is what you mean by complex, that I am entertaining the possibility that the boy is innocent, then I suppose I am making it complex.

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=Jacobtk;12767033

The problem with you scenario is there is a bullet hole going from the outside to the inside of the home, meaning the shot was fired with Romans between the shooter and the door. We know the boy is not taller than Romans and the shot to the arm, if it were raised, appears to have the same downward angle. Just following this, it would imply the boy called Romans, walked outside and waited for Romans to stand in front of the house before opening fire, none of which Romans noticed (along with the four shots from inside the home).

[/QUOTE]

Why is that a problem? Where the bullet hole is going, from the outside of the metal door to the inside, matches up with the grazed head shot to Romans. He would have been down on the porch with the gun pointed at a downward angle to make that shot.



imo

[FurthurBB]

"Far fetched"??? I disagree, I believe it's blatantly obvious to anyone using logic and common sense that this boy is a killer.

IMO


It is blantely obvious that if logic and common sense were really used that no one could possibly know if he did it or not until all the evidence is available. IMO

[FDInLaw]

He needs to be in a very secure setting receiving intensive therapy if there is ever to be any hope of rehabilitating this child.

imo
Therapy for what? According to you, there is no evidence of abuse. Do you concede that there are some environmental factors that contributed to his behavior? From your comments, I'm surprised that you feel he can be rehabilitated at all. If this child did in fact murder his Father and this other man in cold blood (for no real reason), what hope is there that he will ever be a safe and productive member of society?

[FDInLaw]

It is blantely obvious that if logic and common sense were really used that no one could possibly know if he did it or not until all the evidence is available. IMO
Excellent post. We are dealing with bits and pieces of information at best The majority of which has been given out by the prosecution. Best to keep this in mind!

[FDInLaw]

Honestly, I don't hold out much hope at all.

I respect your honesty. Should the evidence in the case (once known) point conclusively to the boy's guilt, what should be done with him in your opinion? I actually use to work in juvenile corrections in Arizona, and I don't have much confidence in the system. I've personally seen, mild offenders come in and leave hardened and more of a threat to society, not less. This case brings up some serious issues.



MOO

[dgfred]

"Far fetched"??? I disagree, I believe it's blatantly obvious to anyone using logic and common sense that this boy is a killer.

IMO

How is that? Every reason you have posted about believing the boy is the 'killer' has been effectively countered with a reason he could not be the one. What common sense has been used? Is it common sense to ignore the drug angle completely? What about the jealousy angle?
I'm not going to mind a bit when you are proven absolutely 100% wrong. Of course in my opinion.

[GentleBreeze]

How is that? Every reason you have posted about believing the boy is the 'killer' has been effectively countered with a reason he could not be the one. What common sense has been used? Is it common sense to ignore the drug angle completely? What about the jealousy angle?
I'm not going to mind a bit when you are proven absolutely 100% wrong. Of course in my opinion.


And what if she isn't wrong? Then what?

imo

[dgfred]

And what if she isn't wrong? Then what?

imo

IF... then I gonna think she is psychic, because nothing so far really points to the kid except he found the bodies and a false confession.
What else?
Not the 'capable' stuff and the bolt-action was used because I will never believe that gun was the murder weapon.

[dgfred]

I believe they found dna on the casings....it will match the boy.
imo

I don't believe that but even if they did...
If the bullets came from the box inside his DNA could possibly be on a casing from previously handling the box and maybe the bullet too.

[GentleBreeze]

I believe they found dna on the casings....it will match the boy.
imo

What if they also found dna on the gun, itself? I think that could also be very revealing.

imoo

[dgfred]

In my opinion each of your reasons has an explanation, and even if ALL true it still doesn't make him the shooter in my eyes because I don't believe a grown man could have used the bolt-action in that situation.
But that is just me because I own a very similar rifle, have shot it many times, and am a pretty good shot very familiar with guns. You have posted it was him from the confession on and haven't swayed one bit since. I would understand if you at least commented occaisionally when a piece of a report/investigation does point away from the kid, but I haven't noticed that yet. The drug/jealousy angles fit much better in my mind than a kid planning and executing the plan almost flawlessly, so much so that so many would be duped into thinking he COULDN'T
have been the killer.

[FDInLaw]

Competency hearing to take place February 27th (9:00am).


Can we post the court links here??? (The boy's name is on them).

[Crispy]

You can post the links as long as the boys name isn't in the link itself.

[FDInLaw]

Thanks Crispy!


http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[dgfred]

I disagree it was "almost flawlessly". Give him a few more years and I believe he could pull it off flawlessly. He just wasn't savvy enough.

Imo So many have been duped into believing he couldn't be the killer because he's 8 years old. If the same set of circumstances surrounded a 25 year old, everyone would be singing a much different tune. IMO

Well your tiny bit of circumstances that 'might' show he is involved show that it was pretty flawless.

I wouldn't change my mind about the bolt-action .22 being used no matter what the suspects age was. So difficult to do even for an experienced shooter. In my opinion even a 8 yr old would know THAT
rifle would be difficult to use in that situation if he was planning to pull this off as y'all suggest.

[Aradia5]

Well your tiny bit of circumstances that 'might' show he is involved show that it was pretty flawless.

I wouldn't change my mind about the bolt-action .22 being used no matter what the suspects age was. So difficult to do even for an experienced shooter. In my opinion even a 8 yr old would know THAT
rifle would be difficult to use in that situation if he was planning to pull this off as y'all suggest.


Then wipe it clean huh? LOL

[dgfred]

Don't see what's so difficult.

The kid could pick off squirrels at a much much much greater distance. Hitting a HUGE target like a man, Tim, some 24 away would be easy as shooting ducks in a barrel. Poor Vince was trapped in a stairwell. What's the difficulty?

Is your notion that it would be difficult based on some speculation of his mental/emotional state at the time?

The actual shot(s) are not the problem in my eyes, it is the loading/shooting/ejecting/moving/re-loading/etc. on to ten that is the GIANT problem. I'm almost postitive you don't see how difficult it is to load while moving around in any type of stressfull situation. If you did you would think more that the kid could not pull this part off.

[dgfred]

Very convincing, plus you forgot to mention he confessed.

He allegedly also tried to choke his dog. IMO other family members and friends will cite other instances of threats. Then actual evidence will come in. Plus did he say anthing in the juvenile facililities or on his releases that may further incriminate him. The noose is tightening, it seems. IMO

In my opinion the noose is about to fall off, and will shortly be thrown around someone elses neck.

[FDInLaw]

The actual shot(s) are not the problem in my eyes, it is the loading/shooting/ejecting/moving/re-loading/etc. on to ten that is the GIANT problem. I'm almost postitive you don't see how difficult it is to load while moving around in any type of stressfull situation. If you did you would think more that the kid could not pull this part off.
I agree. Timothy's "friends" need to be looked at closer IMO.

[dgfred]

CHOKE HIS DOG????!!!?????????:scared::w00t:

Geeesh, and here I was holding out a glimmer of hope for his treatment cause it seemed as if he actually may have cared for the pooch!

Y'all are a trip! Where is the report of that and what is the proof? Don't ya think he might have been messing with the dog? Do you actually think he was trying to harm the dog? Talk about reaching for straws :rolleyes: .

[Toggie]

Y'all are a trip! Where is the report of that and what is the proof? Don't ya think he might have been messing with the dog? Do you actually think he was trying to harm the dog? Talk about reaching for straws :rolleyes: .


I don't recall reading the boy choked his dog. Sounds like gossip to me.

[FDInLaw]

I don't recall reading the boy choked his dog. Sounds like gossip to me.
I haven't read this anywhere either. A link would be nice!

[Aradia5]

Very convincing, plus you forgot to mention he confessed.

He allegedly also tried to choke his dog. IMO other family members and friends will cite other instances of threats. Then actual evidence will come in. Plus did he say anthing in the juvenile facililities or on his releases that may further incriminate him. The noose is tightening, it seems. IMO

A confession that doesn't match the crime scene. :rolleyes: ok whatever.

Now he choked a dog?? Link??

Bolded by me I won't hold my breath. Thanks!

[Jacobtk]

Why is that a problem? Where the bullet hole is going, from the outside of the metal door to the inside, matches up with the grazed head shot to Romans. He would have been down on the porch with the gun pointed at a downward angle to make that shot.

The angle would be too extreme and the entry point would be nearer to Romans' head. From the photo it appears to be near the hinges of the screen door. Likewise, from that angle the bullet would likely lodge in the door or in the frame of the door. In order for the round to completely puncture both sides (which I believe is what happened) the angle would have to be slightly higher, meaning Romans would have to be on his knees and/or the shooter would have been further away. It would also require that the shooter was behind Romans, meaning that it is not very likely the shooter came from inside the home. If you look at the crime scene photos, Romans' truck is right by the front porch. He would be able to see someone enter and leave the house.

[Crispy]

I still don't understand how the neighbor seen him in the yard after the shots, but nobody mentions that until now. I would think it would have been mentioned by one of the officers who was interviewed or testified at the hearings. jmo

[Aradia5]

In my opinion the noose is about to fall off, and will shortly be thrown around someone elses neck.


I have a feeling you are so right. :scared:


:wink:

[Crispy]

Why? They only had to show probable cause.

A neighbor seeing the kid at the crime scene playing with his dog would be important. Neckles didn't mention and neither did Melnick and they were the people taking statements. Also, if they were asked if anyone seen him there and they said No, well that's just wrong. jmo

[Cherishlove]

Very convincing, plus you forgot to mention he confessed.

He allegedly also tried to choke his dog. IMO other family members and friends will cite other instances of threats. Then actual evidence will come in. Plus did he say anthing in the juvenile facililities or on his releases that may further incriminate him. The noose is tightening, it seems. IMO
I seriously doubt he tried to choke his dog, sounds like rumors from someone who wants to take down a little boy.

[Cherishlove]

There's an awful lot not counting the confession imo

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops with a few second delay between each pop.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage. Box of shells nearby.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister in a bath tub.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Did you forget on your list that Tim was reported on ABC15 news as a drug dealer with a death threat one week prior to the murders.

[Jacobtk]

A neighbor seeing the kid at the crime scene playing with his dog would be important. Neckles didn't mention and neither did Melnick and they were the people taking statements. Also, if they were asked if anyone seen him there and they said No, well that's just wrong. jmo

I suspect there are probably quite a few conflicting statements. What is the likelihood that only one person was looking outside or was outside at the time of the shootings? It is entirely possible, and probable, that others were outside and never saw the boy or saw someone else. If those people were interviewed, it is doubtful that the state would release that information to the public.

[Jacobtk]

How many live right across the street?

A person's ability to see the home is not limited to living right across the street. Anyone outside would presumably be able to see and hear anything that occurred in front of the home so long as their view was not blocked.

[Aradia5]

A neighbor seeing the kid at the crime scene playing with his dog would be important. Neckles didn't mention and neither did Melnick and they were the people taking statements. Also, if they were asked if anyone seen him there and they said No, well that's just wrong. jmo

DPS witness statements were massive. Those witnesses saw nothing. Weird huh?

[Crispy]

There were lots of people taking statements

Yes but in Neckles interview with the Brewer she says that she is the co case officer and anything of importance should come to her and also she says that she is the one that recorded the interview with the neighbor who heard the shots and Melnick went back and got a written statement.

[Details]

I believe they found dna on the casings....it will match the boy.
imoBelief is not fact - there's no such evidence.

His DNA on the gun - that wouldn't be a surprise - it was his gun. But then we have nothing to say that it was the murder weapon either.

[GentleBreeze]

The angle would be too extreme and the entry point would be nearer to Romans' head. From the photo it appears to be near the hinges of the screen door. Likewise, from that angle the bullet would likely lodge in the door or in the frame of the door. In order for the round to completely puncture both sides (which I believe is what happened) the angle would have to be slightly higher, meaning Romans would have to be on his knees and/or the shooter would have been further away. It would also require that the shooter was behind Romans, meaning that it is not very likely the shooter came from inside the home. If you look at the crime scene photos, Romans' truck is right by the front porch. He would be able to see someone enter and leave the house.

No, it wouldn't. It would depend how far away the shooter was when he fired grazing his head. It is a pretty good distance between where his head winds up against the metal door and from each of the ivy bushes, where either one could have been used as a blind.

Of course he would be behind him when he grazed his head or shooting at a left or right angle while behind him, shooting downward toward his head. IMO the shooter was positioned behind the ivy bushes for most of the shots to Romans. Romans was already laying on the porch with his head close to the bottom of the metal screen door when the shot was fired, grazing his head.

And I don't believe his height of 4 feet will turnout to be correct either. I think he was taller than that. Maybe more like 4' 5" or maybe even taller.

Well he certainly could see it even clearer if he was fired upon from the street and if he ran toward the house for safety, then he would have back shots not frontal chest shots. It shows he was trying to approach the front of the home and was hit in the chest twice.......not in the back. So yes, indeed, the shooter was in the area of the doorway and the porch area. IMO.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

They weren't directly across the street and didn't happen to be looking either.

Speculation and belief is not fact. How do you know that the police or DPS never interviewed anyone who was outside or looking outside around the time of the shootings and saw and heard nothing?

[Crispy]

Maybe it was another neighbor?

Rodriguez is the one that first interviewed the neighbor I'm talking about. The one directly across the street.

So there are two neighbors who heard shots?

[Jacobtk]

No, it wouldn't. It would depend how far away the shooter was when he fired grazing his head. It is a pretty good distance between where his head winds up against the metal door and from each of the ivy bushes, where either one could have been used as a blind.

The bushes are on the side of the home, correct? That would make every wound would be to Romans' side he Romans turned to face the bushes. Likewise, were not the casings were found on the driveway and porch, not in the bushes? If the shooter ambushed Romans, the casings would be where the shooter fired, not where Romans' body was found. That undermines the notion of a bush ambush.

As for your claim that the boy is half a foot taller, that would mean the boy's given height from the police reports is wrong because every report that mentions him sites him as exactly four feet tall. What evidence do you have to suggest that the police, who would have taken mug shot photos of the boy with his height being measured in the background, got their information wrong?

If Romans was shot approaching the home, that would place the shooter in front of the home and would mean the shooter would have to step out of the way because Roman almost makes it inside the house. However, the casings were not found just by the door. They were also found further away from the door in the driveway. If Romans were looking out to the street and the shooter was standing in the street or in a car, then the shots to his chest are completely possible and that would explain the casings found in the driveway.

[Jacobtk]

Cause.... had they been looking...they would be witnesses!

BTW I never said they didn't.

You are implying that they did not (ironically in the above statement). How do you know that no such witnesses were interviewed and gave statements saying that they saw no one outside during the time of the shootings or saw someone other than the boy outside?

[Aradia5]

So there are two neighbors who heard shots?

Kevin Jaramillo? Great witness with all his criminal records and divorce records.

Kevin and Chelsie Jaramillo

Case Number: S-0100-DO-2008099

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publicaccess/notification/default.asp

Their credibilty is shot! imo

[dgfred]

I search for the truth for FREE!:wink:

Ha, your seaching needs more practice. More like a horse with blinders on it seems. Search the drug angle just a tad, there is a light at the end of that tunnel.

[Aradia5]

Effects eyes and ears how?

Effects the outcome of their criminal cases. :wink:

imo

[GentleBreeze]

The bushes are on the side of the home, correct? That would make every wound would be to Romans' side he Romans turned to face the bushes. Likewise, were not the casings were found on the driveway and porch, not in the bushes? If the shooter ambushed Romans, the casings would be where the shooter fired, not where Romans' body was found. That undermines the notion of a bush ambush.

As for your claim that the boy is half a foot taller, that would mean the boy's given height from the police reports is wrong because every report that mentions him sites him as exactly four feet tall. What evidence do you have to suggest that the police, who would have taken mug shot photos of the boy with his height being measured in the background, got their information wrong?

If Romans was shot approaching the home, that would place the shooter in front of the home and would mean the shooter would have to step out of the way because Roman almost makes it inside the house. However, the casings were not found just by the door. They were also found further away from the door in the driveway. If Romans were looking out to the street and the shooter was standing in the street or in a car, then the shots to his chest are completely possible and that would explain the casings found in the driveway.

:confused:The bushes are in the patio area that includes the doorway in the center where one of the crime scenes were. They are there climbing around support timbers.

I have no clue what you are talking about, Jacob, when you say the shots to Romans would have to be to his side. The shots would be wherever the shooter pointed the gun and fired. The shooter can basically stand moving left or right a foot or two behind the blind, which are bushy and maneuver his gun to shot straight on at the oncoming target. Hunters do it all the time imo.

The bushes are right there at the patio where Tim died.

You are wrong the casings does not show where the shooter was when he fired. It only shows where he was when he ejected the casings and the casing will flip out to the right, a ways and does not drop straight down from the gun. They also can bounce due to having no weight once they hit concrete too.

The casings only tell where the shooter was when he ejected the casings, not where he was standing at the time he fired each shot nor where the victim was located each time they were shot.

I looked at the photos of this child and it is my opinion that he will turnout to be much taller than 4 feet. I believe when he was first arrested the flat rounded off height of 4 feet even, was a general, estimated height. I expect they have now gotten the correct height, right down to the half or quarter inch.

The shooter didn't have to step aside for Tim except maybe when he collapsed dying on the patio porch. Tim was shot starting within 24 feet of advancing toward the home and imo the two chest shots were in between the 24 feet and the home and he then collapsed on the porch, where he then was shot three times to the head. One which grazed his head and hit the metal door frame at the bottom. There wasn't but one close up shot done to Tim and that is when he stepped close and finished him off imo. So he was at a distance with all the other shots but one.



imoo

[dgfred]

Hey G B,
So your line of thought is that the boy shot both victims right in the head, then ejected and reloaded and shot them both again in the head?
Really???

[GentleBreeze]

Hey G B,
So your line of thought is that the boy shot both victims right in the head, then ejected and reloaded and shot them both again in the head?
Really???

:confused: Not real sure what you are saying but yes I think this boy shot all of the ten shots including the ones that would make them stop quivering and shaking. Which imo were the head shots.

imoo

[Crispy]

Effects eyes and ears how?

But if they gave inconsistent statements or statements that don't match the facts, it does effect their credibility. jmo

[dgfred]

From everything I gather, this witness statement is consistent with the time the men arrived home, the time when the shots were heard and most importantly saw the boy WALKING away from the crime scene.

Not running...WALKING

..........shivers:ohmy:

Yeah but the neighbor that called 911 didn't mention the dog, he just stated the boy was at his door crying and the boy did not want to go back to his house.

So he was walking over to the neighbors?
Did the dog track up the crime scene any?
This the dog he was supposidly choking?
This neighbor heard shots, but didn't investigate further?

More questions than answers it seems. Isn't this neighbor the ones with LE problems themselves? Might have some credibility issues.

[Crispy]

From everything I gather, this witness statement is consistent with the time the men arrived home, the time when the shots were heard and most importantly saw the boy WALKING away from the crime scene.

Not running...WALKING

..........shivers:ohmy:


But were all the statements he gave consistent with each other?

[denisel]

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops with a few second delay between each pop.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage. Box of shells nearby.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister in a bath tub.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

imo

I agree. He also confessed to police. We're just down to a few more details and this case will be wrapped up. Even with massive proof I don't believe this boy will be tried, because the "courts aren't equipped" to handle this kind of case.

[dgfred]

I agree. He also confessed to police. We're just down to a few more details and this case will be wrapped up. Even with massive proof I don't believe this boy will be tried, because the "courts aren't equipped" to handle this kind of case.

Led to the confession.
A few more details might exonerate the kid too.
Seems like they would have released something verifying the kid was the shooter since they don't mind releasing little tid bits that show the boy in a bad light. I think more like LE wasn't ready to handle this type of case in the beginning, since alot of their actions are quite easy to question.

[denisel]

From everything I gather, this witness statement is consistent with the time the men arrived home, the time when the shots were heard and most importantly saw the boy WALKING away from the crime scene.

Not running...WALKING

..........shivers:ohmy:

That runs shivers up and down for me.....It seems innocence would be more credible if he was screaming and ran for help.(IMO).

But this boy likes to walk....like the alibi of his 2 1/2 hour walk around the block (IMO).

[dgfred]

Easy to question only by those that have absolutely no idea what was/is going on due to the gag order.

I also think it's very obvious that LE didn't stop investigating once the boy was charged. They did lots of investigating that so many here denied they were doing. To read posts here, one may be lead to believe two rookie detectives closed the case, and called it done on Nov 6th. That's simply not true.

Well that is not what I said. My questions are with the crime scene mostly and the video interrogation and release of said interview.

Opening the crime scene after such a short time period. Why?
Treating the boy that way in a interview (leading) then RELEASING the video to the public... why? Had to know they couldn't use it at trial.
So you are saying that the gag order permits them to release bits of info that put the boy in a bad light, but they can't release certain facts
that would absolutely show he is the correct suspect? Why?
You actually think the drug angle has no place in this crime? Why?

What do you think of Nicole supposidly waiting for CR to get home but leaves before he does and doesn't let Tiffany know? Why? Why would she not want to get involved by going to be interviewed by LE?
More questions than answers in this case and at this point everything is just theories.

[dgfred]

and insists the neighbor walks back with him to see......

:w00t: like a cat showing off their kill

....shivers...........

imo

Jeez, put on a coat or something. Where do you see the 'insist the neighbor walks back with him to see'???
I thought it was stated that the boy showed up crying at the door and did NOT want to return to the house! like a scared kid... all the way.

[Crispy]

and insists the neighbor walks back with him to see......

:w00t: like a cat showing off their kill

....shivers...........

imo

IMO that is an overly dramatic statement. No where does it say that he is showing it off or boasting in any way. jmo

[dgfred]

I would think you were wrong:shrug:

Great answer... but back at ya! Check out the 911 transcript (find it yourself) and that is exactly what it says. So I know you are wrong.

[JD1974]

They released the crime scene because they were done.

IMO Once they believed the boy was lying they simply attempted to get him to be honest. Apparently, IMO telling the truth is something this boy has great difficulty with.

The drug angle doesn't fit with what we do know. It is corroborated by nothing. Just like the alledged sexual abuse.

There are legal procedures in place that must be followed for the release of information.

Why would his biological mother lawyer up ??:ohmy:

Nichole seems a tad on the dippy side IMO

Drug angle doesn't fit even though Tim dealt meth and was threatened a week earlier..umm ok.

So they can release everything but ballistics? Also,can you name anything that they have not been able to release? Just curious because it seems they are releasing stuff left and right, including the whole investigation. Still cannot release ballistics though...interesting procedures they have there.

Why would she lawyer up? Good question because according to you the kid did it, she shouldn't need a lawyer correct? I am betting she got a lawyer so she can have the benefit of legal counsel that

Nicole is on the dippy side because it doesn't fit and doesn't make sense, according to Nicole and Tiffany, Nicole was supposed to be there. Nicole is so dippy she doesn't know she has practice? The Jaramillos are fine though even with all of their problems because it does fit what your scenario is.

Yes I can see the searching for truth going on here.

[trofanji]

There is ZERO evidence the boy was sexually or physically abused.

IMO everything thus far points to the boy


what kind of evidence did you expect? if there isn`t any sign of sexually and physically abuse, doesn't mean there wasn’t any -and you forgot mental abuse!

[trofanji]

I would expect some brusing, anal tearing, semen evidence on his underwear..something.
There's ZERO evidence space aliens came down and gunned the men down too. Does that mean it didn't happen? Darn right! IMO


why did expect you anal tearing, semen? those perverted are mostly not stupid!

[Cherishlove]

The boy's father and step mother had to know the roommate was dealing drugs, so why did they allow him to stay there??? They know as well as many people know a drug deal gone bad and you could get killed over it, it's a very dangerous lifestyle. I'm suspecting this is what could of happened.

[Jacobtk]

:confused:The bushes are in the patio area that includes the doorway in the center where one of the crime scenes were. They are there climbing around support timbers.

I took another look at the crime scene photos (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html) and from the photo I cannot see how anyone could hide behind bush without being seen. In both photos, particularly the closest photo of the home, you can actually see the paint of the house through the bushes. The photos were taken at night. During the day it might be even easier to see through them.

On the left side of the photo is the truck. Its tail is slightly towards the home. If Romans got out of the driver side he would see anyone hiding behind the bush because of the angle. If Romans was heading towards the home it would mean he literally walked and continued to walk after being shot into gun fire. That does not make much sense and it does not explain the angle of the shot that went through the screen door.

If the contention is that the boy shot and fired repeatedly from one spot, the spent casings would be located in that general area. If he shot Romans with the house at his (the boy's) back, then the casings would have all landed somewhere right by the door. They did not, unless we are to assume that not only did the police fail to measure the boy's height correctly, but they also cannot take crime scene photos and measure the location of spent casings correctly. The notion that the casings bounced around is a fair one, however, the same thing would be true if someone used a semi-automatic weapon (like the missing Mossberg). The casings would bounce on the concrete and potentially land anywhere.

I looked at the photos of this child and it is my opinion that he will turnout to be much taller than 4 feet.

When a person is booked, they have their photo taken. This is generally take against a wall with a height identification chart in the background. Sometimes the mug shot does not include the HIC, but the measurement is taken and recorded. All the reports were released after the boy was taken into custody and placed in jail, so what appears on the reports (which appears at least three times) is more likely than not correct. I understand that you think the boy is guilty, but going so far as to claim he is taller because that best fits your scenario is a little much.

[trofanji]

how long would it take to run 24 feet against a shooter who must reload after each shoot?

[Jacobtk]

I would expect some brusing, anal tearing, semen evidence on his underwear..something.

Speaking as someone who experienced this, by the time the boy was physically examined by the state's doctor, that would have healed. The bruising would fade within a few days and there might not be any significant tearing if the abuse happened slowly. The other possibility is that if sexual abuse occurred, it was only oral sex. Pardon the graphic description, but any evidence would not be on the outside of the boy's body. In many instances (again, I am speaking from having had these things done to me), there is no evidence.

There is, however, no reason to believe that if any abuse occurred Carlyon would release that information to the public, let alone that he would care that a child, let alone this child, was raped. At least not in the manner one might assume.

[dgfred]

They released the crime scene because they were done.

IMO Once they believed the boy was lying they simply attempted to get him to be honest. Apparently, IMO telling the truth is something this boy has great difficulty with.

The drug angle doesn't fit with what we do know. It is corroborated by nothing. Just like the alledged sexual abuse.

There are legal procedures in place that must be followed for the release of information.

Why would his biological mother lawyer up ??:ohmy:

Nichole seems a tad on the dippy side IMO

They were done with the crime scene but someone found blood on something when they were 'cleaning up' later?

What, before being led there, made them 'think' he was lying?

Nothing is corroborated hardly, not your info or the opposing views.

Tell us the 'legal procedures' for releasing a video before the person interviewed is read their rights or given legal council, please.

I'd lawyer up too to help me with my kid and advise me.

What do you mean by 'dippy'? Does that mean she doesn't know how to call to explain she was leaving and that CR wasn't home yet? Or that
she forgot about volleyball practice AND forgot to call?

No wonder you think the boy did it, you will not look at anything else.

[trofanji]

Everything you claimed about sexual abuse is true. The child never stated that as a motive and since there is ZERO evidence. I am comfortable stating that there is NOTHING to claim that Tim or Vince was sexually abusing the boy.

If the child was physically abused during the spanking he received the night before the shootings, it's my opinion there would have been a mark on him, there wasn't.

It's my opinion this boy perceived that he was being abused because someone dared discipline him and he was very angry about that.

Mental abuse, I fail to see any with the exception of his biological mother. She seems to have been out of the picture for years and then she suddenly reappears for a few recent visits. That had to be tough for him.

imo

Normally children don't say anything about sexual abuse because they don't like to speak about it, to find out, it need a specialist, not two police officers! The most adults who are sexually abused as a kid know it only on there own!

[Toggie]

I find it odd how Nicole was at the house waiting for CR to come home from school on THAT particular day.

Did Nicole call Tiffany with worry when CR didn't come right home from school?

[dgfred]

I find it odd how Nicole was at the house waiting for CR to come home from school on THAT particular day.

Did Nicole call Tiffany with worry when CR didn't come right home from school?


No she didn't. Supposidly she forgot about volleyball practice and did not call Tiffany about leaving or CR not coming right home.

So Tiffany knew she wouldn't be home that day? Was she away on that day every week? I seem to recall something about the boy knowing
what days she would not be home. Did he know that Nicole was supposed to be there? If so, he wouldn't have planned to 'lay in wait' for his dad to get home right? Did she plan to get donuts and spagetti beforehand?

Very odd.

[GentleBreeze]

I took another look at the crime scene photos (http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html) and from the photo I cannot see how anyone could hide behind bush without being seen. In both photos, particularly the closest photo of the home, you can actually see the paint of the house through the bushes. The photos were taken at night. During the day it might be even easier to see through them.

On the left side of the photo is the truck. Its tail is slightly towards the home. If Romans got out of the driver side he would see anyone hiding behind the bush because of the angle. If Romans was heading towards the home it would mean he literally walked and continued to walk after being shot into gun fire. That does not make much sense and it does not explain the angle of the shot that went through the screen door.

If the contention is that the boy shot and fired repeatedly from one spot, the spent casings would be located in that general area. If he shot Romans with the house at his (the boy's) back, then the casings would have all landed somewhere right by the door. They did not, unless we are to assume that not only did the police fail to measure the boy's height correctly, but they also cannot take crime scene photos and measure the location of spent casings correctly. The notion that the casings bounced around is a fair one, however, the same thing would be true if someone used a semi-automatic weapon (like the missing Mossberg). The casings would bounce on the concrete and potentially land anywhere.



When a person is booked, they have their photo taken. This is generally take against a wall with a height identification chart in the background. Sometimes the mug shot does not include the HIC, but the measurement is taken and recorded. All the reports were released after the boy was taken into custody and placed in jail, so what appears on the reports (which appears at least three times) is more likely than not correct. I understand that you think the boy is guilty, but going so far as to claim he is taller because that best fits your scenario is a little much.

I do not agree with anything you say. The bushes are perfect to hide a boy that had dark clothing on. Perfect imo.

I also do not agree that the actual height was taken when the officer first testified to his height. It would be taken though if the detention center had him checked out by a physician's staff or the intake group and that is where they would weigh him and measure his height. Maybe there will be records of that on the website eventually. I have not seen any mug shot of this boy.

We will see if he is taller than 4 feet. IMO, I say he is and it isn't by a couple of inches either imo but significant inches off, from the estimate of 4 feet. You say you have seen all the reports that include his height, then perhaps you missed one and need to recheck.

Whether you think my theory on the boy being taller, is a little much, matters not to me. I am not here trying to convince you or anyone. I am stating my own opinions about this case, which I am entitled to have just like anyone else. I say he is taller and I think that information will be available to the public.

I am no longer discussing with you about the shooting. You just seem to be unable to envision anything that I write, so I will just leave it at that. Believe what you must and I certainly will believe the same. This shooting wasn't hard and IMO the boy was on the other end of the gun each time it fired.

I never said he fired from one spot. In fact I think the casing that was wedged in the door threshold shows that he may have first shot from inside the home, back inside a few feet with the door open, to the outside toward Tim and then when he prepared to step out behind either bush he wanted, he ejected and reloaded right at the door. By that time Tim was already hit imo.


imoo

[denisel]

That's true as well. It's especially difficult for a young boy.

However, there is still NOTHING indictaing the boy was abused at all, sexually or otherwise.

I agree no reported abuse anywhere.
Az Dept of health Services Death cetif dated 11-12-2008 shows cause of death for VR as multiple gun shot wounds, duh>

[GentleBreeze]

The boy's father and step mother had to know the roommate was dealing drugs, so why did they allow him to stay there??? They know as well as many people know a drug deal gone bad and you could get killed over it, it's a very dangerous lifestyle. I'm suspecting this is what could of happened.

Why did they have to know?

IF he was dealing drugs he could be doing so on his own stomping grounds back in San Carlos, a 170 miles away from St. John. He only stayed with Vinnie Monday through Wednesday.

imoo

[dgfred]

So if the boy knew that Tiffany would not be home and knew that Tim stayed through Wednesday... he would have had to planned to kill both men all along right? I wonder if he knew Nicole was supposed to be over too. More questions dang it.

[Jacobtk]

If the child was physically abused during the spanking he received the night before the shootings, it's my opinion there would have been a mark on him, there wasn't.

They never bothered to check. The only point they would have seen anything is when the boy was stripped searched when he was placed in jail, and it is not like detention staff particularly care or would report any signs of abuse found on the boy. After all, they do not report the regular abuse that occurs in the jail everyday at the hands of other inmates and the guards.

[denisel]

They never bothered to check. The only point they would have seen anything is when the boy was stripped searched when he was placed in jail, and it is not like detention staff particularly care or would report any signs of abuse found on the boy. After all, they do not report the regular abuse that occurs in the jail everyday at the hands of other inmates and the guards.

The police said there was no evidence of abuse, but maybe they never looked at his body close until a few days later. Regardless no previous abuse was reported by teachers, counsellors, DES, police, etc., so no evidence of abuse exists that we know of.

[Jacobtk]

I do not agree with anything you say.

I do not agree with anything that you say, either.

You say you have seen all the reports that include his height, then perhaps you missed one and need to recheck.

If you have a report that states otherwise, post the link.

[Toggie]

So if the boy knew that Tiffany would not be home and knew that Tim stayed through Wednesday... he would have had to planned to kill both men all along right? I wonder if he knew Nicole was supposed to be over too. More questions dang it.


I don't think the boy knew Nicole was suppose to be there. If he knew she was waiting for him, I think he would have gone straight home.

I think he strolled around...just like he said he did.

When Nicole left the house...did she lock it up?

[Jacobtk]

He was given a good look over at detention. He's "special" remember cause he's 8 and it would have simply been a matter of CYA.

I am certain that the staff probably looked carefully at him. Those places are bastions for people like that. However, they would have no reason to report it, just as they do not report abuse committed in the jail.

[denisel]

I don't think the boy knew Nicole was suppose to be there. If he knew she was waiting for him, I think he would have gone straight home.

I think he strolled around...just like he said he did.

When Nicole left the house...did she lock it up?


What link do we have of Nicole being there?

ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

[bookie]

That's true as well. It's especially difficult for a young boy.

However, there is still NOTHING indictaing the boy was abused at all, sexually or otherwise.



According to you in the last week or so there was "nothing indicating" Tim was a drug dealer but we now know he was according to the news reports released over the weekend.

If there is proof of sexual abuse it may very well be under seal because the child is a minor.


"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

[denisel]

According to you in the last week or so there was "nothing indicating" Tim was a drug dealer but we now know he was according to the news reports released over the weekend.

If there is proof of sexual abuse it may very well be under seal because the child is a minor.


"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx


I ran a crimnal web search for the whole US on Tim Romans and nothing has come up on him since 1969. I suspect these are things he did as a kid. Is there any evidence of anything by Vasey since 1969?

http://www.criminalsearches.com/summary.aspx?fn=tim+&ctl00%24MainContent%24mn=&ln=romans&city=&ctl00%24MainContent%24
state=&zip=&x=32&y=14

He doesn't sound like much of a drug dealer to me, it sounds like Vasey is embellishing without dates, etc.

JMO

[denisel]

IMO it would have been documented in the intake report

I agree, especially since another inmate might abuse him, or a corrections officer. In a high profile case you know they are dotting their i's and crossing their t's. CYA

JMO

[Jacobtk]

IMO it would have been documented in the intake report

Probably not, particularly if there was not severe bruising. Not all physical and sexual abuse is visible to the naked eye. As for the CPS worker, she would have no reason to touch the boy at all and he would not have been illegally interviewed by her in the nude.

[denisel]

Remember too, there was a CPS worker there as well to interview the boy. I would imagine she gave him a once over as well.

imo


I agree. Especially if he reported 1000 spankings. JMO

[denisel]

I disagree, The CPS worker would have every legal right to examine the boy. After-all, that's their job, especially since he claimed he WAS abused.

CYA I agree. IMO

[denisel]

You make it sound like San Quentin...:laugh:...there's what? thirteen kids there? :laugh:


I disagree Linda. IMO this case was beyond high profile. I assume the boy was completely isolated from any other juveniles. I'm sure he was all alone except a guard. They would not allow any other contact with this boy.

[Jacobtk]

I disagree, The CPS worker would have every legal right to examine the boy. After-all, that's their job, especially since he claimed he WAS abused.

CPS workers are not legally allowed to examine minors. If a mark or bruise is noticeable on the child's body in the child's state of dress at that moment the workers can take note of it. However, all CPS workers must request a medical examination of a child and the examination must be performed by a physician. The reason is because the process can be and often is extremely triggering and to avoid any instances of abuse by CPS workers.

You make it sound like San Quentin

Abuse is abuse. Anyone who wants to abuse a child in jail can and will do so with little to no response from those who run the jail. It is rare for inmates, particularly children, who are preyed on in jail or prison to have their cases heard or even taken seriously, especially if the abuser was part of the staff.

[bookie]

I ran a crimnal web search for the whole US on Tim Romans and nothing has come up on him since 1969. I suspect these are things he did as a kid. Is there any evidence of anything by Vasey since 1969?

http://www.criminalsearches.com/summary.aspx?fn=tim+&ctl00%24MainContent%24mn=&ln=romans&city=&ctl00%24MainContent%24
state=&zip=&x=32&y=14

He doesn't sound like much of a drug dealer to me, it sounds like Vasey is embellishing without dates, etc.

JMO



You think a detective with DPS was embellishing?

Tim Romans was 39 when he died. He was either born in 1969 or close to it so the records you found obviously weren't his. And IIRC wasn't his arrest on the reservation? If so it most likely wouldn't come up on a search. Some reservations are sovereign nations and criminal information isn't always available.

[denisel]

You think a detective with DPS was embellishing?

Tim Romans was 39 when he died. He was either born in 1969 or close to it so the records you found obviously weren't his. And IIRC wasn't his arrest on the reservation? If so it most likely wouldn't come up on a search. Some reservations are sovereign nations and criminal information isn't always available.

Maybe somebody on the Reservation who reads this can access the records and cite any arrest and when they occurred. As far as the state of Arizona is concerned there are no arrest records on a Tim Romans. IMO

[denisel]

Yeah I know..I was being scarcastic. Jabobtk acts as if the kid was being held in OZ

Too funny Linda....Good night!

[Jacobtk]

Yeah I know..I was being scarcastic. Jabobtk acts as if the kid was being held in OZ

No, I am merely stating that the staff is as concerned for the safety of the children they imprison as the average child abuser or pedophile (with whom most of the jail staff share many characteristics with, the need for power and control over other people's lives being the most obvious).

[GentleBreeze]

You make it sound like San Quentin...:laugh:...there's what? thirteen kids there? :laugh:

:tonguewag: So now we have digressed to the 13 kids being there are being grossly abused?????????????? Where in the world did that come from? I bet it is pretty laid back there.

imo

[bookie]

Maybe somebody on the Reservation who reads this can access the records and cite any arrest and when they occurred. As far as the state of Arizona is concerned there are no arrest records on a Tim Romans. IMO


There was an arrest somewhere. It could have been on the reservation, in Arizona or in another state but according to the DPS he was a drug dealer who had been arrested despite Neckles or Rodriguez' claim that neither man had a criminal history.

That information has just come out more than 3 months later. There is no way to claim there is nothing indicating sexual abuse when we haven't seen all of the reports and evidence. Something that sensitive could be under seal in the case file.

[Toggie]

Maybe somebody on the Reservation who reads this can access the records and cite any arrest and when they occurred. As far as the state of Arizona is concerned there are no arrest records on a Tim Romans. IMO

Keep searching:wink:

[Aradia5]

There was an arrest somewhere. It could have been on the reservation, in Arizona or in another state but according to the DPS he was a drug dealer who had been arrested despite Neckles or Rodriguez' claim that neither man had a criminal history.

That information has just come out more than 3 months later. There is no way to claim there is nothing indicating sexual abuse when we haven't seen all of the reports and evidence. Something that sensitive could be under seal in the case file.
He was arrested a year ago I think. I could be wrong.

:wink:

imo

[lurkinghere2]

snipped

Why would his biological mother lawyer up ??:ohmy:



It appears to me that she lawyered up so that she could get legal custody of her son back. Regardless of ultimate guilt or innocence, his father was dead, his step mom had no legal custody of him, she lived out of state and the legal system had custody. She got a lawyer to legally represent her interests as his mother. nothing more, imo.

Now, why did Tanya lawyer up?

[Details]

No, I am merely stating that the staff is as concerned for the safety of the children they imprison as the average child abuser or pedophile (with whom most of the jail staff share many characteristics with, the need for power and control over other people's lives being the most obvious).Locking an 8 year old child in solitary, when they need to be somewhere with a parent or guardian for hugs, physical contact, someone there for nightmares, and so many other things - that's probably worse than OZ - because of the child's age. An older child can handle it somewhat better, but an 8 year old - this is permanent damage. And adult - they have better defenses. Not so a child.

[trofanji]

You make it sound like San Quentin...:laugh:...there's what? thirteen kids there? :laugh:


All those who think there wasn`t any kind abuse doesn't really know what abuse is, otherwise they won't speak that lax about it! :mad:JMO
again if not reported, doesn't mean there wasn't any!