2-6 thru 2/13

[Aradia5]

Kercher trial to resume in Italy

The first witness testimony is expected to be heard as the Meredith Kercher murder trial resumes in the Italian city of Perugia.

--------------------------

The court is expected to be shown a mobile phone, said to have belonged to Miss Kercher, which prosecutors will use to open their case against Miss Knox and Mr Sollecito.

The neighbours who found the phone are also expected to give evidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7873702.stm

[Aradia5]

Details of what happened on the night Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered will finally be revealed to a jury later today.
:w00t:


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Trial-Amanda-Knox-And-Raffaele-Sollecito-To-Give-Evidence/Article/200902115217709?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15217709_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Trial %3A_Amanda_Knox_And_Raffaele_Sollecito_To_Give_Evi dence

250 witnesses. I always say, if it takes that many, they have no case. Guess we will see.
Lots of videos and pic too!

[Aradia5]

They are on trial together. It should be Knox/Sollecito Trial right? :confused:

This trial best not take a year. :cursing:

[Jester]

Thanks for the link. I'll be right here with you trying to get info about this case.

Can't understand why US infotainment shows are not covering this. It has everything...... sex, murder, etc.

I find it difficult to find news about the trial, even though I read that there were 140 reporters trying to get info on the case. This case baffles me. I can't figure out if the DNA evidence has been compromised, or if it's legit. They claim to have the knife, they claim it has Meredith's blood on it and that it belongs to Raffaele, but I'm having a really difficult time buying into the sex game theory. They'd only known each other for 2 weeks, which is hardly enough time - in my opinion - to build the kind of trust I think a sex game attack would need. I have to wonder if it's possible that the DNA was contaminated and was indeed accidentally located on the bra clasp, the knife, the sink, and whether there could be a mistake about the murder weapon, and more. It seems like there are too many mistakes for them to be mistakes. On the other hand, I sure don't trust the Italian police.

[Aradia5]

Good read!

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/commentary/commentaryother.asp?file=februarycommentary22009.x ml

[nsm]

Thanks for the link. I'll be right here with you trying to get info about this case.

Can't understand why US infotainment shows are not covering this. It has everything...... sex, murder, etc.

Her mother has been on the Today show and other news shows. But you're right, its not getting alot of coverage here. I think dateline did a show on it.

[Mandymax]

I don't have a problem with the basic proposal that Amanda was involved in the murder. What I DO have trouble buying into is the sex-game-fantasy theory. It just seems way too out there and over-the-top for me as a motive. As a juror, if you can't believe the motive, can you still vote guilty? (legitimate question, not a hypothetical)

[dgfred]

I don't have a problem with the basic proposal that Amanda was involved in the murder. What I DO have trouble buying into is the sex-game-fantasy theory. It just seems way too out there and over-the-top for me as a motive. As a juror, if you can't believe the motive, can you still vote guilty? (legitimate question, not a hypothetical)

It has bothered me too. I thinking more along the lines of money being the motive but I just don't know. Suposidly Raf stood up at the start and proclaimed his complete innocence. Should be interesting.

[Aradia5]

The first witness to take the stand was the local postal police chief, Filippo Batolozzi, who cast doubt on Sollecito's claim that he was at home downloading a cartoon at the time of the murder. Batolozzi, whose agency oversees internet activity in Italy, said an inspection of Sollecito's computer revealed there had been no activity on it between 9.10pm on November 1 and 5.32am on November 2

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/meredithkercher-italy

[lunchlady]

I was just thinking of how confusing the evidence initially was in the Nina Reiser murder, but it all became clear when Hans led the police to her body in exchange for a lighter sentence.
At the moment these defendants have no motivation to admit anything even if they are guilty of murder.
The press said Knox was flirting with Sollecito in court last time they encountered each other. Wonder if she's trying to turn his head to help discourage him from testifying against her. Once people have been inside a prison all they seem to want is to get out and regain their freedom. Can't blame them, but IMO it makes everything they say and do even more suspect.
Are co-defendants restricted from communicating with each other in Italy? Are their respective attorneys restricted from comparing notes and making deals?

[Mandymax]

It has bothered me too. I thinking more along the lines of money being the motive but I just don't know. Suposidly Raf stood up at the start and proclaimed his complete innocence. Should be interesting.

For me, honestly, I can see a variety of motives - money, lust, Amanda's jealousy (I personally believe she was jealous of Meredith) and the fact that she and Meredith supposedly didn't get along as well as Amanda professes, not to mention maybe just a heat-of-passion thing. I don't think it was necessarily planned, from any angle.

As always, my own opinion.

[Mandymax]

Are co-defendants restricted from communicating with each other in Italy? Are their respective attorneys restricted from comparing notes and making deals?

This is why I have trouble following this case, as intruiged as I am by it - I don't know how the whole legal process works there. I want to say the co-defendants aren't allowed to communicate, but I'm not sure.

[Aradia5]

Amanda Knox's ex-boyfriend addresses court

Raphael Sollecito, the forgotten piece in the Amanda Knox saga, addressed the court on Friday, telling jurors he was the victim of a "judicial error."

Sollecito also added that he hardly knew the victim, Meredith Kercher, and that he and Knox had just begun dating when Kercher was murdered in her apartment.

Sollecito really has become an afterthought to most people who follow the case. His name is always mentioned alongside Knox's, but his participation in the crime is hardly ever mentioned. Really, he only gets mentioned in connection with the murder weapon (his knife) and reference to his "hashish" smoking.

Nine witnesses are scheduled to testify at today's portion of the trial, including the police who first arrived on the scene and seem to have bungled the initial investigation. After over a year of waiting, I am anxious to hear what those involved in the crime scene and follow-up investigation, have to say.

Updates will be up as soon as they become available.



http://www.examiner.com/x-257-Seattle-Crime-Examiner~y2009m2d6-Amanda-Knoxs-exboyfriend-addresses-court

[n/t]

What does 1-6 as the title of the thread mean?:confused:

[Aradia5]

What does 1-6 as the title of the thread mean?:confused:

It means I still think it's January. :blushing:

:lol:

This is a person that can't wait for spring. LMAO

SORRY!!

[cherylt]

Hey all,

Does anyone know how much time Rudy Guede will actually spend in jail? He was given 30 yrs, but in a lot of countries, that may turn out to be 16 yrs, for ex, for "good behavior".... Or will he have to serve the full 30?

TIA!

[dgfred]

Hey all,

Does anyone know how much time Rudy Guede will actually spend in jail? He was given 30 yrs, but in a lot of countries, that may turn out to be 16 yrs, for ex, for "good behavior".... Or will he have to serve the full 30?

TIA!

Not positive but I think it is the full 30.

I think the cell phone stuff will very informative.

[cherylt]

Not positive but I think it is the full 30.

I think the cell phone stuff will very informative.


Hmmm, thanks!

Do you have a link to the cell phone stuff? I sure would like to read it.
Sounds like some interesting stuff...

[dgfred]

Hmmm, thanks!

Do you have a link to the cell phone stuff? I sure would like to read it.
Sounds like some interesting stuff...

One on the links thread has it, I'm not sure which one.

It doesn't tell much but where they were found and some other little bits of info.

[Aradia5]

First Day of Testimony Has Emotional End for Amanda Knox

Perugia Court Hears Spontaneous Statement From Raffaele SollecitoAmanda Knox's cheerful optimism cracked at the end of the second day of her Italian murder trial today when she was allowed to hug her father and tears welled up in her eyes. "I told her to be strong," Curt Knox said after his daughter left the courtroom, smiling back at her dad through tear-filled eyes as she headed back to prison. "We both told each other we love each other," he said. It was an emotional end to the first day of testimony in the trial in which Knox, 21, and former boyfriend.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/US/comments?type=story&id=6819223

[cloe23]

I don't have a problem with the basic proposal that Amanda was involved in the murder. What I DO have trouble buying into is the sex-game-fantasy theory. It just seems way too out there and over-the-top for me as a motive. As a juror, if you can't believe the motive, can you still vote guilty? (legitimate question, not a hypothetical)

Your post makes me wonder if the prosecution has to prove motive or are they like the US where motive helps but doesn't need to be proved?
:confused:
I also question if the defendants were on another drug in addition to the hash. Hope they did toxicology on Amanda and Raffaele.(Like the use of extacy) I did read in one link that Amanda and Meredith didn't get along, Amanda bringing home many men and not helping with the bills even stealing money from Meredith. The strangest thing about the flatmates is that they only knew each other for 6weeks, IIRC.

[Jester]

The timeline makes no sense for Amanda. She showers.... sees some disconcerting droplets of blood.... goes back to Raffaele's..... Calls another flatmate....

~THEN~

Tries to call Meredith.

:confused:

Why not try to call Meredith right away?

-----------------------

This makes me ask the same question as before. Was Meredith intentionally trying to set it up for someone else to find Meredith?

And how did she miss the blood smear? The apartment door was wide open, her roommates door was locked, and there were smears, drops, and small pools of blood. So she took a shower, went back to her boyfriend's apt, told him and at around noon they tried phoning?

[Jester]

I'm trying to sort this out in my mind and this is what I understand so far:

I know that Rudy and Raffaelle said they didn't know each other before, but did they? We know that Raffaelle's father made some comments about removing a couple of police officers on a tapped phone conversation, so it's not impossible that he is paying Rudy's family for his silence. Maybe the two of them cooked this up and were looking for a couple of foreign students? The sex angle comes from both facebook or myspace pages: she wrote a short story about rape, the he dressed in surgical garb holding a huge meat cleaver. Meredith's picture was of her dressed as a blood dripping vampire.

I think it looks worse for Amanda. Raffaelle has the mafia/govt lawyer, and Amanda's fingerprints were on the alleged murder weapon, along with Meredith's blood. Raffaelle and Amanda both admit they were on drugs, and the best he can recall is that maybe Amanda left for a while. He's Italian and his father is a prominent urologist who bought him a flat to study computer science. Is there anything more tying Raffaelle to the scene than the knife being at his house? If not, as the son of a prominent Italian, may be shown some unspoken leniency.

There's also a luminoled footprint, but that has been described as belonging to Raffaelle or Amanda. It's odd that we don't know.

[Jester]

Not positive but I think it is the full 30.

I think the cell phone stuff will very informative.

I'm not convinced. I had heard that the prisons in the EC are really crowded, so it's not uncommon for a murderer to be released quite a bit earlier. It seems that if someone needs to be put in jail, and there's no room, then someone is released. I heard this about 20 years ago, so I'm not sure if it's the same or different.

Are there transcripts of any calls?

[Aradia5]

I'm trying to sort this out in my mind and this is what I understand so far:

I know that Rudy and Raffaelle said they didn't know each other before, but did they? We know that Raffaelle's father made some comments about removing a couple of police officers on a tapped phone conversation, so it's not impossible that he is paying Rudy's family for his silence. Maybe the two of them cooked this up and were looking for a couple of foreign students? The sex angle comes from both facebook or myspace pages: she wrote a short story about rape, the he dressed in surgical garb holding a huge meat cleaver. Meredith's picture was of her dressed as a blood dripping vampire.

I think it looks worse for Amanda. Raffaelle has the mafia/govt lawyer, and Amanda's fingerprints were on the alleged murder weapon, along with Meredith's blood. Raffaelle and Amanda both admit they were on drugs, and the best he can recall is that maybe Amanda left for a while. He's Italian and his father is a prominent urologist who bought him a flat to study computer science. Is there anything more tying Raffaelle to the scene than the knife being at his house? If not, as the son of a prominent Italian, may be shown some unspoken leniency.

There's also a luminoled footprint, but that has been described as belonging to Raffaelle or Amanda. It's odd that we don't know.

The knife has been thrown out. It didn't match the markings on Meredith's neck.

[Aradia5]

And how did she miss the blood smear? The apartment door was wide open, her roommates door was locked, and there were smears, drops, and small pools of blood. So she took a shower, went back to her boyfriend's apt, told him and at around noon they tried phoning?

Maybe she thought it was the fake blood from Meredith's costume and being a vampire?

I might think that, that is why I thought of it. :blink:

[Aradia5]

Confession in Kercher killing admissible


ROME, Feb. 6 (UPI) -- A statement made by U.S. national Amanda Knox in regards to the site where British student Meredith Kercher was killed is admissible, an Italian court says.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/06/Confession_in_Kercher_killing_admissible/UPI-24221233944886/

[Aradia5]

Meredith's Boyfriend Due In Court

Meredith Kercher's former boyfriend is due to give evidence in the trial of two ex-lovers accused of killing her.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kerchers-Boyfriend-To-Give-Evidence-In-Perugia-At-Amanda-Knox-And-Raffaele-Sollecito-Trial/Article/200902115218355

Be sure to watch the videos on the left. (Some Crime scene footage)

[Jester]

Your post makes me wonder if the prosecution has to prove motive or are they like the US where motive helps but doesn't need to be proved?
:confused:
I also question if the defendants were on another drug in addition to the hash. Hope they did toxicology on Amanda and Raffaele.(Like the use of extacy) I did read in one link that Amanda and Meredith didn't get along, Amanda bringing home many men and not helping with the bills even stealing money from Meredith. The strangest thing about the flatmates is that they only knew each other for 6weeks, IIRC.

I think motive has to be proven, not 100% but recall reading something about it. I think some theory of the crime has to be given to make it plausible.

I wonder about the drugs too. Meth would numb the sex attack, and lead to forgetfulness. Would ecstasy cause memory relapse? Good hashish would probably do the trick too. Did they get it in Afghanistan?

It sounds like two working Italians had two extra rooms and rented them to students Meredith and Amanda. Meredith didn't like the fact that Amanda didn't make her bed, didn't flush the toilet, was generally messy, and brought home strange men. I missed the stealing. I haven't read any negative comments from Amanda about Meredith.

I think student life normally starts in Sept, so knowing each other for six weeks as students doesn't seem that unusual in Nov.

[Jester]

The knife has been thrown out. It didn't match the markings on Meredith's neck.

So how do they explain Kercher's blood on the knife and Amanda's fingerprints on the grip? Were they mistaken about the blood? I thought that was one of the findings. If they are mistaken about DNA on a knife that was not used, then all the DNA evidence should be disregarded.

[Aradia5]

So how do they explain Kercher's blood on the knife and Amanda's fingerprints on the grip? Were they mistaken about the blood? I thought that was one of the findings. If they are mistaken about DNA on a knife that was not used, then all the DNA evidence should be disregarded.
ITA
It wasn't Kercher blood DNA on the knife.
Skin cells maybe??


---------------
Media already saying witnesses are contradicting themselves. :glare:

[Jester]

Maybe she thought it was the fake blood from Meredith's costume and being a vampire?

I might think that, that is why I thought of it. :blink:

The blood smear was 10 inches.

"Their forensic experts counted no less than 13 traces of blood in the bathroom where Knox showered, ranging from droplets to a 10in streak on the door. The tap of the wash basin, according to their report, was “notably stained”.

That's a lot of blood to not notice, especially after finding the front door wide open. From pictures of Meredith, the fake blood looked more like lipstick than fake blood. In any case, it wouldn't account for the 10 inch smear.

[Aradia5]

The blood smear was 10 inches.

"Their forensic experts counted no less than 13 traces of blood in the bathroom where Knox showered, ranging from droplets to a 10in streak on the door. The tap of the wash basin, according to their report, was “notably stained”.

That's a lot of blood to not notice, especially after finding the front door wide open. From pictures of Meredith, the fake blood looked more like lipstick than fake blood. In any case, it wouldn't account for the 10 inch smear.

I saw that.

------Did you see this:

The defense has argued that the crime scene was contaminated during the investigation. As a result of the conflicting testimony, the judge ordered the witnesses to take the stand again Saturday.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hUwNJptZbnCIsu90VqOzxS7S2fzQD966BBMO2

[Jester]

Meredith's Boyfriend Due In Court

Meredith Kercher's former boyfriend is due to give evidence in the trial of two ex-lovers accused of killing her.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kerchers-Boyfriend-To-Give-Evidence-In-Perugia-At-Amanda-Knox-And-Raffaele-Sollecito-Trial/Article/200902115218355

Be sure to watch the videos on the left. (Some Crime scene footage)

Do you think Amanda is going to take the fall for a partial role? I don't think she is the mastermind - women rarely are. He's a computer science student, she in languages. If anyone is the brains, it's him. Maybe it's true that all of the evidence is tainted.

Personally, I think they should both get off. They're not Karla and Paul Homolka from the looks of it. After the trial they will either never see each other again, or they will and there will be no more murders.

... going to check out videos

[Aradia5]

Do you think Amanda is going to take the fall for a partial role? I don't think she is the mastermind - women rarely are. He's a computer science student, she in languages. If anyone is the brains, it's him. Maybe it's true that all of the evidence is tainted.

Personally, I think they should both get off. They're not Karla and Paul Homolka from the looks of it. After the trial they will either never see each other again, or they will and there will be no more murders.

... going to check out videos

Personally, I think Rudy Hermann Guede acted alone.

[Jester]

I'm trying to envision what happened. It sounds like her carotid artery was partially sliced, and blood spurted across the room. She died in a pool of her own blood as she slowly bled out? She couldn't call for help because both phones, hers and the one she borrowed from a roommate that night, were taken and discarded in the neighbors yard. She couldn't move because she'd been stabbed in the artery. Her attacker was having diarrhea in the bathroom she shared with Amanda while she lay dying. He probably broke in through the window and fled out the door. Whose footprint is in the luminoled area?

[Jester]

Personally, I think Rudy Hermann Guede acted alone.

That means that all the DNA evidence has been fabricated. Meredith's DNA is on the knife found in Raffaelle's apartment with Amanda's fingerprints. That's the story the police have given. The fingerprint behind the pillow under Meredith's head is what led to the arrest of Rudy. That sounds like very good forensics. Rudy claimed they had consensual sex, not rape.

It's possible they are two "love birds" who are oblivious to the world and were accidentally tangled in a huge international legal murder mystery.

[Jester]

Does blood spatter pattern indicate anything about how many people were in the room?

[cloe23]

I am questioning how many bathrooms and bedrooms are at the flat that Amanda and Meredith shared. Just this week I saw photos suggesting that there was a bathroom just off of Meredith's bedroom covered in blood.
Then I read that Amanda and Meredith shared a bathroom?
About the other flatmates, could they have roomed with Meredith in the past? That Amanda and Meredith were the only two who lived were the crime took place? I believe that Amanda was only in Italy for 6 weeks before the murder of Meredith, I wonder how long Meredith had been in Italy?
IMO The media is reporting conflicting stories.
I have read about the barefoot print lifted from the crime scene as well as a bloody shoe print that was matched to Raffaele.
I am confused on what true evidence the courts have.
It appears that nothing has leaked from Rudy Guede's trial.

[Jester]

This would be really scary

"The court heard earlier that 36 Italian police officers had been present when the American student Knox, then aged 20, was told she was under arrest for murder."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/meredithkercher-italy

[Jester]

I am questioning how many bathrooms and bedrooms are at the flat that Amanda and Meredith shared. Just this week I saw photos suggesting that there was a bathroom just off of Meredith's bedroom covered in blood.
Then I read that Amanda and Meredith shared a bathroom?
About the other flatmates, could they have roomed with Meredith in the past? That Amanda and Meredith were the only two who lived were the crime took place? I believe that Amanda was only in Italy for 6 weeks before the murder of Meredith, I wonder how long Meredith had been in Italy?
IMO The media is reporting conflicting stories.
I have read about the barefoot print lifted from the crime scene as well as a bloody shoe print that was matched to Raffaele.
I am confused on what true evidence the courts have.
It appears that nothing has leaked from Rudy Guede's trial.

She described the flat in one of her emails home when she first found it. She said something about one girl being really funny and the other playing guitar. That sounds like the two Italian girls. Their roommates had suddenly moved out and they were looking for 2 roommates. I guess they were Meredith and Amanda. I think they were both only there for about 6-8 weeks.

I think the flat had four bedrooms, two bathrooms, laundry, living, kitchen, view. There was a downstairs flat and Rudy knew the four boys that lived downstairs. He made comments about both Meredith and Amanda to those roommates.

[Jester]

Per above discussion whether it was Meredith's blood on the knife or merely skin cells:

"That makes it all the more important that the judge and jury reach a common view on the alleged murder weapon - a kitchen knife found in Sollecito’s flat. According to the prosecution, it has Knox’s DNA on the handle, which is perfectly explicable since she was often at her boyfriend’s flat, but - more importantly - Kercher’s blood on the blade. The fourth girl in the flat, Laura Mezzetti, has said that Meredith never visited Sollecito’s flat."

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/commentary/commentaryother.asp?file=februarycommentary22009.x ml

[Jester]

I wonder why Amanda did not make an opening statement.

I bet, being unfamiliar with the Italian judicial system, she didn't know the importance of an opening statement and how it is used. An opening statement seems like a worthwhile statement to make: state innocence and position, such as judicial error, prior to evidence being heard by judge and jury. It gives an alternate theory from the beginning.

[Jester]

Amanda would have done what her attorney said, IMO. Why would he not know the importance of an opening statement?

He's probably not nearly as sophisticated as Raffaelle's lawyer, and, for all we know, it could be a rare request - one reserved for innocent people.

Her attorney may have told her it was an option, but being familiar with the American system, she may have waived her right.

[Pag Boi]

I'm trying to sort this out in my mind and this is what I understand so far:

I know that Rudy and Raffaelle said they didn't know each other before, but did they? We know that Raffaelle's father made some comments about removing a couple of police officers on a tapped phone conversation, so it's not impossible that he is paying Rudy's family for his silence. Maybe the two of them cooked this up and were looking for a couple of foreign students? The sex angle comes from both facebook or myspace pages: she wrote a short story about rape, the he dressed in surgical garb holding a huge meat cleaver. Meredith's picture was of her dressed as a blood dripping vampire.

I think it looks worse for Amanda. Raffaelle has the mafia/govt lawyer, and Amanda's fingerprints were on the alleged murder weapon, along with Meredith's blood. Raffaelle and Amanda both admit they were on drugs, and the best he can recall is that maybe Amanda left for a while. He's Italian and his father is a prominent urologist who bought him a flat to study computer science. Is there anything more tying Raffaelle to the scene than the knife being at his house? If not, as the son of a prominent Italian, may be shown some unspoken leniency.

There's also a luminoled footprint, but that has been described as belonging to Raffaelle or Amanda. It's odd that we don't know.

The problem with that is that Amanda NEVER implicated Guede or connected him to the crime. Yet she did try to put her boss at the scene of the crime. Wierd how his cell phone put him near but he was cleared.

Guede's fingerprint was found at the crime scene and that is how he became a suspect IIRC. There is no real proof they were more than passing acquaintances, if that.

The footprint is alleged to be a possible partial match to Raffaelle's shoe. But the shoe has no blood on it. It's all very odd. JMOO

[Pag Boi]

I am questioning how many bathrooms and bedrooms are at the flat that Amanda and Meredith shared. Just this week I saw photos suggesting that there was a bathroom just off of Meredith's bedroom covered in blood.
Then I read that Amanda and Meredith shared a bathroom?
About the other flatmates, could they have roomed with Meredith in the past? That Amanda and Meredith were the only two who lived were the crime took place? I believe that Amanda was only in Italy for 6 weeks before the murder of Meredith, I wonder how long Meredith had been in Italy?
IMO The media is reporting conflicting stories.
I have read about the barefoot print lifted from the crime scene as well as a bloody shoe print that was matched to Raffaele.
I am confused on what true evidence the courts have.
It appears that nothing has leaked from Rudy Guede's trial.



There were 2 bathrooms in the flat. One bigger than the other.

There was an Italian and another female that shared the flat. Meredith had the Italian's cell phone for some reason. But her bank was called from her cell phone the night of the murder.


One account said there was a partial barefoot print on a bathmat but no prints leading to or away from it.

Something about a print in the bedroom w/the broken window. Possible signs of clean up including a hallway that showed signs of being mopped but no way to tell when???


The knife stories are conflicting as well. It seems the length of the murder weapon doesn't match the kitchen knife??

[mafitz701]

Maybe she thought it was the fake blood from Meredith's costume and being a vampire?

I might think that, that is why I thought of it. :blink:

What do you mean the knife was thrown out? Are you talking about the first one they said was the murder weapon? The pocket knife? Or the second one they said was the murder weapon? Which knife?

The upstairs flat was shared by Amanda, Meredith, and TWO Italian girls Filomena and Laura.

The downstairs flat was shared by 4 Italian boys.

I don't buy the whole Italian Mafia angle on Sollecito and his dad. I think its as farfetched as the prosecutor's theory on the motive.


Meredith's bank was called from Filomena's cell phone. Meredith's cell phone was not working and that is why Meredith borrowed Filomena's cell phone that day.

Guede's bloody fingerprint was found on a pillow under Meredith's body. Guede's dna was found inside Meredith's body via mucosal swabs taken. Guede (Rudy)'s feces was found in the toilet in the bathroom that was bloody and used by Meredith.

Drops of blood were found in the larger bathroom.

Amanda's dna was found on the handle of the knife taken from Sollecito's kitchen via a drop of sweat, no fingerprints on the knife. The dna of Meredith was found on the blade of that knife but was not from blood. Read Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock blog section from 2008 on the details of the crime scene. He is actually there in Perugia a resident there, and has been on top of this case from the beginning. No slants from him that I have found thus far.

[mafitz701]

The trial as reported by Frank Sfarzo:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/

This is interesting because we find out the police actually went to the house next door where the cell phones were found the night of the murder.

"In the evening of November 1 Lana is about to go to the toilet, before going to bed, and right in that moment a stranger calls her, saying that under her toilet there's a bomb. A joke which couldn't be more timed. She calls the Police who arrive immediately, it was urgent, the lady would risk cystitis.
Rather than the toilet the police checks the garden, but it's okay, Lana feels relaxed. And good night."


"Next morning, November 2, in the middle of a lawn of Lana's garden, about 15-20 meters from the street, her son Alessandro finds the Motorola cellphone, turned off.
Postal Police station, 10:58: Lana Elisabetta starts dictating her lawsuit against unknown and delivers the Motorola, thinking that the police lost it the night before.

11:31, inspector Bartolozzi closes the record and queries the Vodafone database for that number: Romanelli Filomena, via della Pergola 7, Perugia.
Right after, before 12:00, a patrol leaves, Bartolozzi states, destination via della Pergola.
Lana goes shopping. But her daughter Giannetta calls her. She found another cellphone that was ringing in the bushes of the property, 5-6 meters from the street. Someone is calling again that Ericson cellphone: AMANDA."


This is weird. If the postal police did not arrive until 1 pm that supports Sollecito's claim that they did not arrive until around 1.

"12:46, Lana is again in front of Bartolozzi with the new cellphone. But the number doesn't appear this time, it must be a foreign sim.
Bartolozzi writes in the second record that a patrol leaves for via della Pergola after he sized both cellphones, so it must be at around 13:00.
Did the patrol leave before 12 or around 13? Where is the mistake?
Bartolozzi explains that he made a mistake in the written record, and that the patrol was sent out around 12:00 rather than after 12:46."

"In the meanwhile a call arrives from the patrol in via della Pergola: Filomena got to the house (13:00) and explained that the user of the italian cellphone is Meredith and she has also an english sim. Bartolozzi understands."

You figure it out. Do they arrive at 12:00 or at 1:00?

[mafitz701]

Sollecito called his sister during this time who is a member of the Carbinari (sp?) the murder investigating police end I guess?

[cloe23]

The problem with that is that Amanda NEVER implicated Guede or connected him to the crime. Yet she did try to put her boss at the scene of the crime. Wierd how his cell phone put him near but he was cleared.
Guede's fingerprint was found at the crime scene and that is how he became a suspect IIRC. There is no real proof they were more than passing acquaintances, if that.

The footprint is alleged to be a possible partial match to Raffaelle's shoe. But the shoe has no blood on it. It's all very odd. JMOO


I have mentioned before that maybe Patrick Lumumba- bar owner may have been invited to the party(lack of a better word). He agreed, Amanda sent him a text message saying that she is home now(paraphrasing) Lumumba headed to the flat and chicken out, putting his cell phone in the direct area of the crime scene. :confused:
Just a theory.

[Xainia]

Prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi claim that when Knox was at the police station waiting to be questioned she had spoken of the injuries to Meredith's body which they say ''only the killers would know about.'.

The Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1137266/Foxy-Knoxy-suffers-blow-ex-boyfriend-tries-pin-blame-saying-I-wouldnt-hurt-fly.html)

By then Miss Romanelli and other students had tried to enter Miss Kercher's bedroom but had found the door to be locked.
The court has heard that Miss Knox assured them that was normal, claiming that Meredith would often lock the door, even when she went for a shower.
But Miss Romanelli disputed this, saying Miss Kercher only locked her door when she left the house.


The Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/4549136/Amanda-Knox-and-Meredith-Kercher-fell-out-over-housework-third-flatmate-says.html)



Witnesses described the moment Meredith's body was discovered.
"With the police we decided to break into the room - I don't know exactly where Amanda and Raffaele were at that time but I can tell you they were not in a position to see inside the room," said Luca Altieri, a friend of one of Meredith's housemates.



The Article (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kerchers-Housemate-Give-Evidence-In-Perugia-At-Amanda-Knox-And-Raffaele-Sollecito-Trial/Article/200902115218355?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article _Teaser_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15218355_Meredith_Kerchers_Housemate_G ive_Evidence_In_Perugia_At_Amanda_Knox_And_Raffael e_Sollecito_Trial)

[Pag Boi]

I have mentioned before that maybe Patrick Lumumba- bar owner may have been invited to the party(lack of a better word). He agreed, Amanda sent him a text message saying that she is home now(paraphrasing) Lumumba headed to the flat and chicken out, putting his cell phone in the direct area of the crime scene. :confused:
Just a theory.


Wait. I thought Patrick sent Amanda a text that she didn't have to work that night? He wasn't going to open the bar or something???

Raffellio was supposed to go out with another friend but canceled when Amanda was freed up from work?

[nsm]

The one guy involved already got a 30 year sentence for murder. Does anyone think that that almost seals the fate of amanda and her boyfriend? How can the jury separate the three of them? From everything I have been reading here and on other news articles on this, It seems to me, that the prosecution already has its mind made up. If the two of them are set free, I for one, will be totally shocked.

[Pag Boi]

The one guy involved already got a 30 year sentence for murder. Does anyone think that that almost seals the fate of amanda and her boyfriend? How can the jury separate the three of them? From everything I have been reading here and on other news articles on this, It seems to me, that the prosecution already has its mind made up. If the two of them are set free, I for one, will be totally shocked.

Of course the prosecution has its mind made up or they wouldn't have charged the defendants with the crime.

I don't know how the trial will end. But if they are convicted, the appeals process may set them free down the road. JMOO

eta: I don't think the prosecution is the finder of fact in this trial

[cloe23]

Wait. I thought Patrick sent Amanda a text that she didn't have to work that night? He wasn't going to open the bar or something???

Raffellio was supposed to go out with another friend but canceled when Amanda was freed up from work?

IIRC Amanda was fired and Patrick then hired Meredith. Patrick texted Meredith and said the bar wasn't going to be open or not to come in, something of that effect. I'm confused so let me find a link. I am going off memory so please be patient.:blush: Not my intent to spin anything.

[cloe23]

The one guy involved already got a 30 year sentence for murder. Does anyone think that that almost seals the fate of amanda and her boyfriend? How can the jury separate the three of them? From everything I have been reading here and on other news articles on this, It seems to me, that the prosecution already has its mind made up. If the two of them are set free, I for one, will be totally shocked.

I'm not betting on the conviction of Raffaele as his attorney has more experience then Amanda's. Raffaele's father who is a specialist in the medical field, hired this guy to defend he son. JMO

[cloe23]

Does blood spatter pattern indicate anything about how many people were in the room?

IMO opinion no. It can indicate more then one assailant and or different types of weapons used. But not spectators. jmo Correct me please if I am wrong.:smile:

[Aradia5]

What do you mean the knife was thrown out? Are you talking about the first one they said was the murder weapon? The pocket knife? Or the second one they said was the murder weapon? Which knife?

The upstairs flat was shared by Amanda, Meredith, and TWO Italian girls Filomena and Laura.

The downstairs flat was shared by 4 Italian boys.

I don't buy the whole Italian Mafia angle on Sollecito and his dad. I think its as farfetched as the prosecutor's theory on the motive.


Meredith's bank was called from Filomena's cell phone. Meredith's cell phone was not working and that is why Meredith borrowed Filomena's cell phone that day.

Guede's bloody fingerprint was found on a pillow under Meredith's body. Guede's dna was found inside Meredith's body via mucosal swabs taken. Guede (Rudy)'s feces was found in the toilet in the bathroom that was bloody and used by Meredith.

Drops of blood were found in the larger bathroom.

Amanda's dna was found on the handle of the knife taken from Sollecito's kitchen via a drop of sweat, no fingerprints on the knife. The dna of Meredith was found on the blade of that knife but was not from blood. Read Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock blog section from 2008 on the details of the crime scene. He is actually there in Perugia a resident there, and has been on top of this case from the beginning. No slants from him that I have found thus far.

Amanda's family explained why the knife was thrown out on a USA TV show.

[cloe23]

Wait. I thought Patrick sent Amanda a text that she didn't have to work that night? He wasn't going to open the bar or something???

Raffellio was supposed to go out with another friend but canceled when Amanda was freed up from work?


Read closer to the bottom. Meredith worked for Patrick. If this source is correct I don't know.:confused:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2851266.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

[Pag Boi]

Read closer to the bottom. Meredith worked for Patrick. If this source is correct I don't know.:confused:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2851266.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2


Hey cloe. Thanks for the info. I didn't think you were trying to spin anything. This case spins all by itself.

I clicked on another article from the same website you provided

At about 8.30pm, Lumumba sent a text message to Knox, telling her there was no need for her to turn up to work that evening. Knox replied shortly afterwards: “See you later.” Exactly what that meant is now disputed - was it literal or just a casual remark

This article has a very different account of Meredith/Patrick relations. Altho I find Patrick's tale very odd, if LE cleared him so be it

What possessed Amanda to tell so many versions? I am stuck on the fact that she never implicated Guede. I just find that odd but it could mean nothing at all. This case is bizarre!! Poor Meredith.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2848150.ece

[n/t]

She had a shower?? I remembered hearing about that but now we have testimony from the roommate that Amanda indeed had a shower and told her there was blood on the floor. OMG!

Also, the washing machine was warm. She later identified most of the clothes inside as those of the victim, Meredith Kercher, a student at Leeds University.


Did Amanda wash Meredith's clothes? Why? Was it to get rid of DNA evidence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox

[n/t]

They mentioned this in the article:

"But Romanelli also reinforced the defence case. She said a police officer entered Kercher's room after the door was broken down. That could mean he left footprints the prosecution have maintained belonged to Sollecito, who is standing trial alongside Knox for the murder."

So far it sounds like Amanda was at the scene but there's still doubt whether or not Sollecito was there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox

[n/t]

More testimony....

Miss Romanelli was shown a photograph of an 11in kitchen knife which prosecutors claim is compatible with wounds on Meredith’s neck. She said: ‘It is a very common knife but I don’t recognise it, I don’t recall it being in the house.’
Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said the knife had been found in the kitchen of Knox’s boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 24.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1138862/Foxy-Knoxy--8216-brought-men-home-8217--trial-hears.html

[n/t]

The flat mate's testimony is interesting. Still sounds to me like Amanda was setting it up for someone else to find Meredith.

The window was broken, but was it large enough for someone to enter/exit?

That's what it sure sounds like in the statement below....who in their right mind takes a shower when their door was found open and blood on the floor???


They were about to arrive there when she received a call from Knox. "There's something strange at the house," she quoted the young American as saying. "I go, 'Ciao, Amanda. What's happened? In what sense?' [She said,] 'I arrived and the door was open.' "

Knox explained to Romanelli that she was going back to the flat of her Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito. She quoted Knox as saying: "I've taken a shower. Then at Raffaele's place I'll get him to come over. There's blood there, I think."

[Pag Boi]

She had a shower?? I remembered hearing about that but now we have testimony from the roommate that Amanda indeed had a shower and told her there was blood on the floor. OMG!

Also, the washing machine was warm. She later identified most of the clothes inside as those of the victim, Meredith Kercher, a student at Leeds University.


Did Amanda wash Meredith's clothes? Why? Was it to get rid of DNA evidence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox


The washing machine? Yikes. I read that she was seen with Guede at the laundromat a day or two after the crime.

Off to read link.Thx n/t

[Jester]

The problem with that is that Amanda NEVER implicated Guede or connected him to the crime. Yet she did try to put her boss at the scene of the crime. Wierd how his cell phone put him near but he was cleared.

Guede's fingerprint was found at the crime scene and that is how he became a suspect IIRC. There is no real proof they were more than passing acquaintances, if that.

The footprint is alleged to be a possible partial match to Raffaelle's shoe. But the shoe has no blood on it. It's all very odd. JMOO

A receipt for cleaning products was found at Raffaelle's flat, and someone said they saw Amanda buying cleaning products the morning after the murders. His dad is a urologist, so maybe he knows how to remove blood.

Placing her boss at the scene is weird, but I wondered if that statement, made after 14 hours of interrogation, no food, and being hit in the head, was a reflection of what the police wanted her to say.

[Jester]

I'm not betting on the conviction of Raffaele as his attorney has more experience then Amanda's. Raffaele's father who is a specialist in the medical field, hired this guy to defend he son. JMO

I'm leaning in that direction too. The judge has said in Rudy's summary that he thinks Amanda opened the door to let Rudy in, and that doesn't bode well for her. I'm surprised, because the only reason he ruled out breaking the window to enter the apartment is because it faced a road ... but it looks like it was lower than the road - not sure.

I can see Raffaelle getting out of this, but I'm doubtful about Amanda.

[Jester]

Hey cloe. Thanks for the info. I didn't think you were trying to spin anything. This case spins all by itself.

I clicked on another article from the same website you provided



This article has a very different account of Meredith/Patrick relations. Altho I find Patrick's tale very odd, if LE cleared him so be it

What possessed Amanda to tell so many versions? I am stuck on the fact that she never implicated Guede. I just find that odd but it could mean nothing at all. This case is bizarre!! Poor Meredith.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2848150.ece

It could mean that Amanda knew nothing about who committed the crime, the police had a theory that included Patrick, and they coerced and beat her until she signed a statement reflecting their theory.

[Jester]

She had a shower?? I remembered hearing about that but now we have testimony from the roommate that Amanda indeed had a shower and told her there was blood on the floor. OMG!

Also, the washing machine was warm. She later identified most of the clothes inside as those of the victim, Meredith Kercher, a student at Leeds University.


Did Amanda wash Meredith's clothes? Why? Was it to get rid of DNA evidence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox

That's very interesting, as is the broken glass on top of her clothes. I guess that's why the police assert that it was a staged break-in. That answers one question for me ... about the broken window. I hope there are photographs supporting her statements, and there is no possibility that the clothes were on the floor long before the murder.

[mafitz701]

The clothes in the washer could just be a red herring. Keep in mind that Meredith was going back to England to visit family sometime that week.

[Jester]

The Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1137266/Foxy-Knoxy-suffers-blow-ex-boyfriend-tries-pin-blame-saying-I-wouldnt-hurt-fly.html)

The Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/4549136/Amanda-Knox-and-Meredith-Kercher-fell-out-over-housework-third-flatmate-says.html)

The Article (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kerchers-Housemate-Give-Evidence-In-Perugia-At-Amanda-Knox-And-Raffaele-Sollecito-Trial/Article/200902115218355?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article _Teaser_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15218355_Meredith_Kerchers_Housemate_G ive_Evidence_In_Perugia_At_Amanda_Knox_And_Raffael e_Sollecito_Trial)

From your first link: "Sollecito also claimed he had not been with Knox long enough for them to want to include others in their sex life."

I completely agree with that, and it makes a lot of sense.

[Jester]

The flat mate found Meredith's clothes under the glass. So, which of her clothes were in the washer?

It was the roommates clothes, not Meredith's clothes, under the broken glass.

"Blonde, bespectacled Filomena Romanelli also posed a string of problems for the defence. She said that when she returned to the house they shared on 2 November 2007 the washing machine was warm. She later identified most of the clothes inside as those of the victim, Meredith Kercher, a student at Leeds University.

...

She said that, knowing by then that the window of her bedroom had been smashed, her first instinct on returning to the flat had been to go to her room. What she saw was "a disaster". Her clothes were on the floor and her cupboard was open. But none of her jewellery was missing, nor her designer sunglasses and handbags. Her laptop was among the clothes. She said there was glass on top of the pile of clothes: "I remember that in lifting the computer I realised that I was picking up bits of glass because there were bits of glass on top and it was all covered with glass."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox

[Jester]

FWIW..... I'm not swayed by Amanda's so-called confessions.

I'm still trying to understand her actions the day after the murder. So far, there has not been much of a congruent time line posted before and during the murder.

The biggest problem I have so far with Amanda is that she arrived at her apartment, found the door wide open, saw blood in a few places, and had no problem taking a shower. Most women will leave immediately if they see their house has been broken into ... as there's no guarantee that there isn't an intruder in the apartment. Granted, she's naive, and was most likely still a bit stoned ... but still.

[Jester]

The clothes in the washer could just be a red herring. Keep in mind that Meredith was going back to England to visit family sometime that week.

It was November, so it's unusual that the washing would be warm if Meredith had washed them while she was alive, after 9:30 the previous evening. Again, the police needed to make these observations and record them at the time the body was found.

[Jester]

Read closer to the bottom. Meredith worked for Patrick. If this source is correct I don't know.:confused:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2851266.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

Did she work for Patrick, or did she tell him she knew how to make a particular drink and he liked her?

"Ms Kercher came to Mr Lumumba's attention when she told him she knew how to make a mohito cocktail with vodka. Witnesses have said he clearly found her attractive, and Ms Knox told police he was "infatuated". "

Same link

[Jester]

Amanda was in and out of the flat several times. Never noticed the window was broken.

The flat mate walks up and notices it right away.

Why would Amanda not call Raffaele to come to her flat, instead of leaving to ask him to return with her?

She was in the flat to shower, and then again after noon with Raffaele to check out the strange situation. It was the flatmate's bedroom, so she had a reason to look in the room. Maybe Amanda didn't look in her roommate's bedroom.

Good question about why Raffaele didn't come to the apartment rather than Amanda walk back to his place to tell him about the blood, open door, and strangeness. That doesn't seem right ... in fact, after smoking pot with him all afternoon and into the night, and spending the night with him, why didn't the two of them hop in the shower together? I don't understand why she didn't shower at his flat. Maybe she wanted clean clothes, but it was a new relationship, so it would have been more fun to ask him for a clean t-shirt/borrow his clothes.

[Jester]

A little more about the connection between Patrick and Meredith:

"Lumumba, the bar manager who was known to all as Patrick, took notice and started chatting to her. Meredith told him: “I used to work in England as a barmaid, I know how to make mojitos with that vodka.” Lumumba, according to police documents, was born in Zaire in May 1963, which makes him 44 - not 37 as has been previously reported.

He was rather taken by the much younger Meredith, according to some testimony. The following Sunday, Lumumba asked Knox to bring Meredith along for an evening of free pizza. On that occasion, Lumumba again spoke to Meredith. “Why don’t you come back and make mojitos with that Polish vodka one evening?” he asked her.

According to Lumumba’s later testimony, these were the only two occasions on which he met Meredith, apart from a brief greeting in the street. Knox’s testimony, however, is very different: she said that Lumumba had become “infatuated” with Meredith. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2848150.ece

[Jester]

ITA about the clothes situation. :thumbsup:

JMO.... Raffaele was not as enthralled at with AK as she was with him. Sounds like she was just a good time to him. Date was over.

Any idea what time Amanda/Raffaele got together before winding up at his apartment?

I'm anxious to hear Guede's testimony where he can be cross examined by the defense attorneys.

I get the impression of the opposite. It's beginning to look like Amanda was okay with hookups, and I did read that her diary included a hookup with a stranger on a train. She'd hooked up with seven guys between arriving in Italy and about 6-8 weeks later (time of the murder). Amanda is described as having a wild side, and being all about fun ... with no limits on casual sex. I'm inclined to think she was into toying with guys - self-esteem boost, and he was more serious or a bit taken with her. Raffaele sounds like a bit of a nerdy computer science geek that didn't have an awful lot of "girl" experience

As for getting together, it sounds like they were smoking pot all afternoon, and by 8:20 her work plans were canceled and his plan to take someone to the Station was canceled. 8:40 they switched off their phones ... and maybe watched a movie. That time line is a little iffy.

"Soon after arriving in Perugia, Knox struck up a relationship with Sollecito, a young Italian also from a good family. By his own account, Sollecito’s relationship with Amanda was “intense”, beginning on the night of the day they first met.

In a written interview with The Sunday Times from jail, Sollecito said he had met Amanda at a concert. “We liked each other immediately,” he said. “I went up to her and she invited me that evening to go to the bar where she worked.

“From the outset Amanda and I had an intense, albeit brief, relationship, right up to the evening of the tragic event I’ve been linked to.” To his lawyers, Sollecito confided that he had had only one “serious” girlfriend before meeting Amanda and that they made love “in a very traditional way”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2848150.ece

[Jester]

Will Rudy testify at this trial? I wonder if he's prepared to state the facts or if he will claim innocence in the hope for an appeal. I'm assuming he's guilty of rape and that there was no consensual sex because of Meredith's prudishness, and that she was a bit judgmental about hookups (Amanda).

I don't believe that Meredith willingly had sex with Rudy, so he is guilty of rape, and probably of murder. I think the robbery was staged, because the laptop was tossed with the clothes ... thieves almost always take the electronics.

[Jester]

From what I understand, nothing was missing. So, it was not a burglary.

Excited to hear more testimony.

That's my understanding as well. I think the defense will try to run with the theory that Rudy broke into the flat by breaking the window with the intention of robbing the place. I read somewhere that 'it wouldn't be the first time that thief turned rapist'. When Meredith returned from dinner with her UK friends, she was confronted by Rudy, raped, and murdered. I read that maybe some makeup was missing, but I think makeup often goes missing ... I've found lipstick tubes in odd places. Later statements are that nothing was missing, but that the Italian's legal assistant's room was trashed.

The police theory is that the window was broken as an after thought and it seems that glass evidence supports that theory - sure hope they have photos. The judge has stated that he believes Amanda let Rudy into the apartment, and Rudy has said that he was let into the apartment.

Patrick's cell ping near the flat at around 8:37 is interesting, and does support the idea that Patrick was invited to the flat ... cell pings don't screw up, so what's his explanation?

Definitely looking forward to more testimony. This is a very interesting case.

[Pag Boi]

A receipt for cleaning products was found at Raffaelle's flat, and someone said they saw Amanda buying cleaning products the morning after the murders. His dad is a urologist, so maybe he knows how to remove blood.

Placing her boss at the scene is weird, but I wondered if that statement, made after 14 hours of interrogation, no food, and being hit in the head, was a reflection of what the police wanted her to say.

Has this been confirmed abt the receipt for cleaning products? We need a flow chart!

Anyhoo, this is what I referred to when I asked abt the washing machine at home in addition to the laundromat:

Italian newspapers have reported that another man, a North African musician, was seen with Ms Knox the day after the murder, at a launderette washing clothes and a pair of Nike trainers.

http://news.bitzeli.net/go/www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2929831.ece_cid_OTC_RSS_attr_797093

[Pag Boi]

From what I understand, nothing was missing. So, it was not a burglary.

Excited to hear more testimony.

I thought Meredith's rent money was missing? Weren't her cell phones missing since LE came to return them after tracing the number?

I think Guede was only interested in taking her money after he was done JMOO

[Pag Boi]

He's probably not nearly as sophisticated as Raffaelle's lawyer, and, for all we know, it could be a rare request - one reserved for innocent people.

Her attorney may have told her it was an option, but being familiar with the American system, she may have waived her right.

"The 24-year-old computer sciences graduate was taking advantage of his right under Italian law to make a spontaneous declaration at any point in his trial"l

I would guess Amanda has the same right to make spontaneous declarations if she was advised to do so. :shrug:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/07/kercher-trial-accused

[Jester]

Has this been confirmed abt the receipt for cleaning products? We need a flow chart!

Anyhoo, this is what I referred to when I asked abt the washing machine at home in addition to the laundromat:



http://news.bitzeli.net/go/www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2929831.ece_cid_OTC_RSS_attr_797093

I've only read that the police said that they found a receipt for cleaning products purchased by Amanda in Raffaele's flat, and this was attached to an unreliable witness who claimed he saw Amanda at the store. In fact, it seems that all witness statements with sighting of the two near the scene and acting suspiciously all seemed to come from unreliable witnesses.

Amanda was at the laundromat (footage?) with Rudy the morning after the murder according to the police, when she was also supposedly with Raffaele? Certainly Raffaele remembers whether she was there. Did she leave at 10:30, go home, see blood, shower, meet Rudy at the laundromat, walk back to Raffaele, and then investigate whether everything was all right?

When did she first learn that Meredith would be alone that night? If she knew it in advance, and came home to find the front door wide open, blood on the door and floor, Meredith's locked room, Fliromina's smashed window, Rudy's turd in the toilet ... why didn't she immediately phone Meredith to see if she was okay? Sure, they disagreed about cleaning, but if Meredith was alone in the apartment that night, and the door was wide open in the morning ... wouldn't any roommate want to check on the only roommate that was in the flat the night before? She was new to Italy ... it's not like she was oblivious to it's dangers.

so she showered and walked out the door?

[Jester]

I'm leaning towards guilt for Amanda. It's hard to separate Raffaelle, but the only solid connection of him to the case is the knife, and the police made other mistakes arresting Patrick, so Raff could get off ... I think.

It's difficult to separate Raffaele if Amanda is guilty, since they spent the night of the murder together.

[n/t]

I'm leaning towards guilt for Amanda. It's hard to separate Raffaelle, but the only solid connection of him to the case is the knife, and the police made other mistakes arresting Patrick, so Raff could get off ... I think.

It's difficult to separate Raffaele if Amanda is guilty, since they spent the night of the murder together.

Too early in the trial for me to make that call. I don't get why they're being tried together. I guess it's more cost effective?

What evidence has been presented against Sollecito so far except for the knife? We know he's lied but why? Was it to cover up for Amanda?

Also, I didn't know Rudy was going to testify. Is this true? Anybody have a link. TIA

[n/t]

Yikes! Another blow for Amanda.

Confession in Kercher killing admissible
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/06/Confession_in_Kercher_killing_admissible/UPI-24221233944886/

[Jester]

I thought Meredith's rent money was missing? Weren't her cell phones missing since LE came to return them after tracing the number?

I think Guede was only interested in taking her money after he was done JMOO

I think police were first alerted to a situation when they found Meredith's cell phone in the neighbors yard. Filomina's phone, that she lent to Meredith, was also in the neighbors yard. One has to wonder if Meredith kept the two cell phones in the same location, like in her purse? ... Rudy found them and tossed both before he fled the scene. while she bled out. On the other hand, it takes a bit of forethought to toss someone's cell phones in the neighbors yard while someone bleeds to death. Does that sound like the actions of a drifer ... seems a bit too clever for a drifter.

I don't think Rudy took any money or thought about preventing Meredith from phoning while she bled out ... yet he tossed the phones? He was having diarrhea in the bathroom while Meredith bled out and thought about not getting caught? Everyone that lived in the flat said that nothing was stolen. Only Filomina's room was trashed and her laptop was thrown under her clothes. Glass from the broken window was on top of her laptop and clothes.

Something is screwed up in this story ... Raffaelle may have the answer, but he is looking very innocent right now.

[Jester]

Yikes! Another blow for Amanda.

Confession in Kercher killing admissible
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/06/Confession_in_Kercher_killing_admissible/UPI-24221233944886/


I think she's going to take the fall for this murder, even though Rudy is placed at the scene most likely raping and murdering Meredith. Could Amanda be so stupid as to leave a huge trail to her, and she is innocent? What about this coerced statement that the supreme court threw out, how can the courts re-enter it into evidence? Didn't she give a statement under duress, and then continue to argue some aspects of the alleged false statement the next day ... only to return to her original statement of "I wasn't there" when questioned about inconsistencies? Did she change her statement more than once, and how did she initially address the coerced statement?

Very confusing.

[Jester]

Too early in the trial for me to make that call. I don't get why they're being tried together. I guess it's more cost effective?

What evidence has been presented against Sollecito so far except for the knife? We know he's lied but why? Was it to cover up for Amanda?

Also, I didn't know Rudy was going to testify. Is this true? Anybody have a link. TIA

They can't get Raffaele on direct evidence, but they can implicate her, and tie him in that way. The two admit being together for the evening and into the morning that Meredith was murdered. Raffaele claims that she may have left for a while he was stoned out of his mind and can't be sure. That that couldn't have happened at 8:40 in the evening when they both turned off their cellphones, shortly before the murder. She can be placed at the murder, they were together, so trying them together gives a better chance that he too will be convicted. I think her conviction is a done deal.

[cloe23]

Did she work for Patrick, or did she tell him she knew how to make a particular drink and he liked her?

"Ms Kercher came to Mr Lumumba's attention when she told him she knew how to make a mohito cocktail with vodka. Witnesses have said he clearly found her attractive, and Ms Knox told police he was "infatuated". "

Same link

Well good question:biggrin: I am wanting to know where Meredith worked as well as Amanda. Anyone know? or Where to point me?

[Jester]

Her roommate of 6 weeks, whom she didn't particularly respect, was found murdered. "The American student and her Italian boyfriend, suspected of involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia, bought "sexy underwear" and talked about having "wild sex" the day after her body was discovered, according to an Italian shopkeeper.

Today Italian papers carried leaked testimony given to police by Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi, 30, the owner of a clothing shop in Perugia."

http://news.bitzeli.net/go/www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2929831.ece_cid_OTC_RSS_attr_797093

[Jester]

Well good question:biggrin: I am wanting to know where Meredith worked as well as Amanda. Anyone know? or Where to point me?

Most students don't work. Meredith most likely was a student who didn't work. There's nothing to suggest that she worked at a bar. Amanda was a student who did work. Raffaele didn't work. Amanda brought all sorts of new friends back to the flat, and when she took her roommate Meredith to the bar, people liked her. Was Amanda jealous? Did Amanda say that Patrick was infatuated with Meredith? Did Amanda say that she didn't know why she implicated Patrick? If it were because of coercion, Amanda would not have questioned why she implicated him, she would have said the police put those words in her mouth. Apparently, she took credit for implicating Patrick in questions to the police after her statement was given. I think that is the statement that will be included in the court proceedings, although her original statement may be out.

Meredith didn't work for Patrick, but she knew how to make a good Irish drink and Amanda made more of the friendship than existed? Did Amanda give the names of friends to avoid answering questions?

[Aradia5]

They can't get Raffaele on direct evidence, but they can implicate her, and tie him in that way. The two admit being together for the evening and into the morning that Meredith was murdered. Raffaele claims that she may have left for a while he was stoned out of his mind and can't be sure. That that couldn't have happened at 8:40 in the evening when they both turned off their cellphones, shortly before the murder. She can be placed at the murder, they were together, so trying them together gives a better chance that he too will be convicted. I think her conviction is a done deal.

I don't think that is fair!
This trial is so hard to follow. :blushing:

[cloe23]

I've only read that the police said that they found a receipt for cleaning products purchased by Amanda in Raffaele's flat, and this was attached to an unreliable witness who claimed he saw Amanda at the store. In fact, it seems that all witness statements with sighting of the two near the scene and acting suspiciously all seemed to come from unreliable witnesses.

Amanda was at the laundromat (footage?) with Rudy the morning after the murder according to the police, when she was also supposedly with Raffaele? Certainly Raffaele remembers whether she was there. Did she leave at 10:30, go home, see blood, shower, meet Rudy at the laundromat, walk back to Raffaele, and then investigate whether everything was all right?

When did she first learn that Meredith would be alone that night? If she knew it in advance, and came home to find the front door wide open, blood on the door and floor, Meredith's locked room, Fliromina's smashed window, Rudy's turd in the toilet ... why didn't she immediately phone Meredith to see if she was okay? Sure, they disagreed about cleaning, but if Meredith was alone in the apartment that night, and the door was wide open in the morning ... wouldn't any roommate want to check on the only roommate that was in the flat the night before? She was new to Italy ... it's not like she was oblivious to it's dangers.

so she showered and walked out the door?

Wasn't the cleaning products 2 bottles of bleach?
IMO Amanda set this up, having Meredith's boss (who I thought was Patrick) tell her 'via text message' she didn't need to come in to work that night.
The plan could of been stalled as Meredith went over to friends to eat and watch the movie 'The Notebook'.
Once Amanda knew Meredith was home she sent a text message to Patrick saying 'she is home now' then left the apartment unlocked.
Patrick's cell phone hits in the area of the crime scene, did he receive a call or make a call ? Whatever that cell phone transaction was it stopped Patrick from joining in on the game, he left the area and changed his sim card. I wonder if Patrick will be a witness in Amanda's and Raffaele's trial? Also I read somewhere that both Amanda and Raffaele were spotted buying a daily news paper at a local news stand.
IMO I think that they were checking to see if there were any headlines about a crime at the flat.
Just some thoughts....

[mafitz701]

Will Rudy testify at this trial? I wonder if he's prepared to state the facts or if he will claim innocence in the hope for an appeal. I'm assuming he's guilty of rape and that there was no consensual sex because of Meredith's prudishness, and that she was a bit judgmental about hookups (Amanda).

I don't believe that Meredith willingly had sex with Rudy, so he is guilty of rape, and probably of murder. I think the robbery was staged, because the laptop was tossed with the clothes ... thieves almost always take the electronics.

True plus remember she had just broke up with her boyfriend, who was living in the apartment downstairs. Solenza. She was wearing his jeans the day of the murder.

[mafitz701]

The problem with the witness testimony is that even when there was cctv cameras in the area they would have seen the two, there was no footage of Amanda or Raf to support their testimony.

The merchant who claimed Amanda was in his store that morning came forward with his story one year later, and it turns out she was supposed to have been in the store at 0745, when he would have just been opening.

A receipt for cleaning products was found in Raf's apartment but the police have not given the date of that receipt. Nor have they said what the cleaning products were specifically. And if you go back to the judge's report it doesn't even specify the date of the receipt.

This was odd to me for a prosecutor to not use the date of the receipt to support guilt.

Chloe I am still thinking Patrick was involved directly. He lived in Perugia long enough to have become acquainted with Rudy. Versus trying to come up with how Amanda or Meredith would have known Rudy after only having lived there since September.

I wonder if they checked the washer for fingerprints?

The other problem is that Filomena's testimony about Amanda and Meredith contradicts the claims that they did not get along. Filomena told the judge that the two girls got along well together.

[mafitz701]

Another problem is that they never found Meredith's keys. They only found keys to the apartment downstairs. Meredith had agreed to feed fish or something in Solenza's apartment. But the police never found Meredith's keys to her apartment.

Which would help the defense.

Another odd thing back to the washer is that in Europe they do not use a washer and a dryer like we do, they have a small compact front loader that is both a washer and a dryer. I actually thought about getting one of these instead but found out the drying cycle takes a lot longer to get the clothes dry. The clothes in the washer were wet, which means someone did not program them to dry. Would it be common for a college student to make this mistake?

Even for a boy? They have to do their own chores because mom is not around to clean up after them. So when you put a load of clothes in would you not program it as you would any other time?

[cloe23]

She was in the flat to shower, and then again after noon with Raffaele to check out the strange situation. It was the flatmate's bedroom, so she had a reason to look in the room. Maybe Amanda didn't look in her roommate's bedroom.

Good question about why Raffaele didn't come to the apartment rather than Amanda walk back to his place to tell him about the blood, open door, and strangeness. That doesn't seem right ... in fact, after smoking pot with him all afternoon and into the night, and spending the night with him, why didn't the two of them hop in the shower together? I don't understand why she didn't shower at his flat. Maybe she wanted clean clothes, but it was a new relationship, so it would have been more fun to ask him for a clean t-shirt/borrow his clothes.

LOL I was thinking the same thing about showering together, just to scared to bring it up.:laugh:

[cloe23]

Most students don't work. Meredith most likely was a student who didn't work. There's nothing to suggest that she worked at a bar. Amanda was a student who did work. Raffaele didn't work. Amanda brought all sorts of new friends back to the flat, and when she took her roommate Meredith to the bar, people liked her. Was Amanda jealous? Did Amanda say that Patrick was infatuated with Meredith? Did Amanda say that she didn't know why she implicated Patrick? If it were because of coercion, Amanda would not have questioned why she implicated him, she would have said the police put those words in her mouth. Apparently, she took credit for implicating Patrick in questions to the police after her statement was given. I think that is the statement that will be included in the court proceedings, although her original statement may be out.

Meredith didn't work for Patrick, but she knew how to make a good Irish drink and Amanda made more of the friendship than existed? Did Amanda give the names of friends to avoid answering questions?

I think so, Amanda is not stupid, she very well may have been attempting to take the blame off her and place it on others. I wish we had privy to those interviews. Both Amanda's and Raffaele.

[cloe23]

Another problem is that they never found Meredith's keys. They only found keys to the apartment downstairs. Meredith had agreed to feed fish or something in Solenza's apartment. But the police never found Meredith's keys to her apartment.

Which would help the defense.

Another odd thing back to the washer is that in Europe they do not use a washer and a dryer like we do, they have a small compact front loader that is both a washer and a dryer. I actually thought about getting one of these instead but found out the drying cycle takes a lot longer to get the clothes dry. The clothes in the washer were wet, which means someone did not program them to dry. Would it be common for a college student to make this mistake?

Even for a boy? They have to do their own chores because mom is not around to clean up after them. So when you put a load of clothes in would you not program it as you would any other time?

Interesting about the type of washer/dryer used in UK. It would be easier for an immigrant who only had six week of living in another country to make this mistake. Just a theory.

[cloe23]

The problem with the witness testimony is that even when there was cctv cameras in the area they would have seen the two, there was no footage of Amanda or Raf to support their testimony.

The merchant who claimed Amanda was in his store that morning came forward with his story one year later, and it turns out she was supposed to have been in the store at 0745, when he would have just been opening.

A receipt for cleaning products was found in Raf's apartment but the police have not given the date of that receipt. Nor have they said what the cleaning products were specifically. And if you go back to the judge's report it doesn't even specify the date of the receipt.

This was odd to me for a prosecutor to not use the date of the receipt to support guilt.

Chloe I am still thinking Patrick was involved directly. He lived in Perugia long enough to have become acquainted with Rudy. Versus trying to come up with how Amanda or Meredith would have known Rudy after only having lived there since September.

I wonder if they checked the washer for fingerprints?

The other problem is that Filomena's testimony about Amanda and Meredith contradicts the claims that they did not get along. Filomena told the judge that the two girls got along well together.

I am on the fence about Patrick. The only evidence on him I thought is the cell phone interactions in the crime area and the changing of his sim card. He is still not off the hook IIRC, but has filed a civil complaint on LE. I will look for the link. Do you know if Filomena testified that Amanda was bringing home different men at night and Meredith complained of that?

As for Meredith's keys not being recovered, wasn't there a drop off(like a cliff) behind the flat that LE never searched?

[cloe23]

I brought this over from the links. Looks like Patrick is not the only one filing civil suits against Amanda.

Also in attendance was Congolese bartender Patrick Lumumba, who today formally requested the right to pursue civil charges against Knox for financial damages he suffered after she accused him of killing Kercher. (Lumumba was initially detained by the police but has since been released for lack of evidence.)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/159271


__________________

[mafitz701]

I am on the fence about Patrick. The only evidence on him I thought is the cell phone interactions in the crime area and the changing of his sim card. He is still not off the hook IIRC, but has filed a civil complaint on LE. I will look for the link. Do you know if Filomena testified that Amanda was bringing home different men at night and Meredith complained of that?

As for Meredith's keys not being recovered, wasn't there a drop off(like a cliff) behind the flat that LE never searched?

Yes true about the cliff but then why weren't the cell phones also thrown over the cliff instead of in the neighbor's yard?

Also it wouldn't be the first time a guilty party filed a civil suit claiming harrassment etc..

The problem is that I don't think they searched any of the suspects property well enough. What if the keys are still in one of the homes of the suspects? What if they were kept as a trophy and why wouldn't LE consider this?

[mafitz701]

How would Guede know where the money was, without disturbing everything else looking for it?

But the apartment was disturbed, they went through all of the purses, which is the first place most of us would look hunting for money and valuables. Guede's sweat and Meredith's blood were found inside of Meredith's purse.

Another oddity though was that Filomena was gone but her purse was still at the apartment as they said it had been rifled through.

Another oddity was that Amanda's room was the only room of the bedrooms that was not searched or have the appearance of having been searched.

Even if we ignore the fact that Laura's laptop, and Filomena's designer hangbags and shoes were left behind as well as no jewelry was missing from anyone.

[mafitz701]

Cloe you took out of context:

Here is the paragraph:
"Less than a mile away, Kercher's parents and sister spent nearly eight hours in a courtroom on Tuesday, in the first of many preliminary trials facing two of Kercher's accused killers: her American roommate, Amanda Knox, and local drifter Rudy Guede, originally from the Ivory Coast. Knox's on-again, off-again Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, declined his right to attend the trials to "avoid being part of a media circus," according to his lawyers, who briefly addressed the press before the hearing. Also in attendance was Congolese bartender Patrick Lumumba"

[mafitz701]

I think if Amanda just told the truth about what happened and who was involved, I think Patrick would once again be a part of the murder and assault on Meredith.

It is why a long time ago I asked specifically if Italy has a double jeopardy law? If she is found not guilty, can they bring her back to trial if they get better evidence?

Aside from the prosecutor making her a deal to talk, I just don't see her ever talking about what really happened, and the prosecutor strikes me as being more caught up in his own ego than he is in finding out what really happened in this case.

Also with the civil trial, is more allowed in as evidence? Is there a chance that the cell phone evidence putting Lumumba near the crime scene could be brought back up in the civil case? LE just dropped the whole thing with Lumumba when the Swiss friend vouched for him. It seems a mistake to me to do so. Anyone can lie, but cell phone towers picking up "phantom" phone calls? I am wondering if Lumumba's desire to keep himself in the spotlight of this crime might actually lead to him incriminating himself?

Frank Sfarzo said in his blog that Lumumba was making a good living off of the many interviews he was doing over this case, and now he is going forward with a civil case seeking money that he is never going to get? Why would he be doing that? Amanda has no assets or trust fund clearly or her legal defense would be more than average. Why wouldn't he be including LE in that suit as well if it was to repair his damaged reputation?

[mafitz701]

Oh and no on Filomena ever testifying about Amanda bringing different men to the apartment. If you read the Telegraph link that has the judge's report in it, she never said anything about other men coming to the apartment with Amanda.

She just said that Amanda and Meredith spent a lot of time together and Filimena and Laura spent a lot of time together.

[cloe23]

OK, this is why I have been adamant about Amanda being fired from the bar, by Patrick and Meredith being hired.
Just another article to read, fact or not I do not know. :confused:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-496218/I-fired-Foxy-Knoxy-hitting-customers-Patrick-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

[cloe23]

Yes true about the cliff but then why weren't the cell phones also thrown over the cliff instead of in the neighbor's yard?

Also it wouldn't be the first time a guilty party filed a civil suit claiming harrassment etc..

The problem is that I don't think they searched any of the suspects property well enough. What if the keys are still in one of the homes of the suspects? What if they were kept as a trophy and why wouldn't LE consider this?

First off thanks for being so paitent with me:blushing:
As for cell phones in neighbors garden, could of been Rudy running and dumping them, I read just today that he told LE or his council that he was suffering from stomach pains.
As for keys they may have been in Meredith's purse along with her money, I think Amanda took Meredith's money. I am totally confused why keys would be taken, maybe to further set up Patrick?
Having plans that fell threw to plant them at his club?
IIRC Meredith's purse is in evidence, this makes me wonder about who's finger prints/DNA has been collected from that purse.
The civil suit thing to me is pretty risky if you know you were involved. jmo

[cloe23]

Cloe you took out of context:

Here is the paragraph:
"Less than a mile away, Kercher's parents and sister spent nearly eight hours in a courtroom on Tuesday, in the first of many preliminary trials facing two of Kercher's accused killers: her American roommate, Amanda Knox, and local drifter Rudy Guede, originally from the Ivory Coast. Knox's on-again, off-again Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, declined his right to attend the trials to "avoid being part of a media circus," according to his lawyers, who briefly addressed the press before the hearing. Also in attendance was Congolese bartender Patrick Lumumba"

TY, I stand corrected:smile:

[Jester]

OK, this is why I have been adamant about Amanda being fired from the bar, by Patrick and Meredith being hired.
Just another article to read, fact or not I do not know. :confused:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-496218/I-fired-Foxy-Knoxy-hitting-customers-Patrick-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

Thanks for the link. It certainly gives a different perspective on Amanda.

[cloe23]

Amanda did [NOT] appear to want to enter Meredith's room. Which could very well indicate she knew what was in there.

I was just getting ready to ask you about that,:biggrin:
I can finally rest on this now. Amanda was fired and Patrick did offer Meredith work, supports the jealousy theory towards Meredith. Heck who knows maybe the few times that Meredith worked at the bar she received tips, Amanda may of thought in her head that she was entitled to them?
Still very confusing regarding cell phone activity and alot more.

[Jester]

I was just getting ready to ask you about that,:biggrin:
I can finally rest on this now. Amanda was fired and Patrick did offer Meredith work, supports the jealousy theory towards Meredith. Heck who knows maybe the few times that Meredith worked at the bar she received tips, Amanda may of thought in her head that she was entitled to them?
Still very confusing regarding cell phone activity and alot more.

Both the roommates and Patrick commented on Amanda being lazy and not wanting to fill her responsibilities. It does sound like Amanda is very competitive with other women, and one does have to wonder how far she would take that.

[Jester]

It's interesting that American talking heads seem so preoccupied with a 22 year old mother who murdered her daughter in what looks like and open and shut case, yet this bizarre mystery is pretty much ignored. That says a lot about what gets people interested in murders ... emotional experience rather than sleuthing.

[Jester]

If Amanda and Raffaele were doing lots of drugs, drinking, buying lingerie and sex toys, where was that money coming from? I'd like someone to ask that question of the defendants. Amanda/Raffaele also had rent/living expenses/school to pay for.

Raffaele's Father may be well off, but how long would he support this type of lifestyle for someone other than his son?

Raffaele's father bought him the apartment, so he didn't have rent. He most likely had an allowance from his father. Amanda obviously needed money, but probably got the boys to buy her what she wanted. She strikes me as someone that used sexuality to get what she wanted.

[n/t]

It's interesting that American talking heads seem so preoccupied with a 22 year old mother who murdered her daughter in what looks like and open and shut case, yet this bizarre mystery is pretty much ignored. That says a lot about what gets people interested in murders ... emotional experience rather than sleuthing.

I don't think that's the case. Difficult to cover a case in a foreign country. All they can do is give updates like we've seen JVM and Nancy Grace do. I would bet that if this crime occured in the US, it would have a lot more coverage. It has all the makings of a good news story. Sex, drugs, greed, jealousy and murder.

[n/t]

Raffaele's father bought him the apartment, so he didn't have rent. He most likely had an allowance from his father. Amanda obviously needed money, but probably got the boys to buy her what she wanted. She strikes me as someone that used sexuality to get what she wanted.

Amanda's parents were well off from what I understand. I don't think she was short on money. I think most parents would support their childrens education and pay for expenses. If only Amanda's parents knew that the money they were sending was to support her partying.

I feel terrible for them. What a nightmare!

[n/t]

OK, this is why I have been adamant about Amanda being fired from the bar, by Patrick and Meredith being hired.
Just another article to read, fact or not I do not know. :confused:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-496218/I-fired-Foxy-Knoxy-hitting-customers-Patrick-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

I think that's what was portrayed in the Dateline episode I watched a while ago. Amanda got fired....Meredith was hired to "replace" her.

Yes, I would think jealousy could be a motive. Maybe Amanda thought she was the sex/love goddess and men would bow to her. She suddenly realized that she had competition????

[n/t]

Was Meredith's throat stabbed or deliberately slashed?

All reports indicate her throat was slashed.

[lunchlady]

How do they know the knife doesn't match the wounds? I don't much about forensics. Wonder if they've bothered to look further for the knife.

[mafitz701]

No her throat was stabbed, she was stabbed at a downward angle not slashed.

If Amanda was fired by Patrick as the (dailymail) which btw is the English equivalent of the Enquirer in the US, then why would Patrick text her telling her the bar was closed that night and so she didn't need to come to work?

I think you guys might be running away with innuendo on this one.

The bomb threat was a part of the testimony given on 2/6 by Lana the neighbor and her two kids that found the cell phones in their yard. Someone called a bombthreat into her house telling her there was a bomb under the toilet, police came and checked her garden out and then left. This happened on the night of the murder.

The good thing about the knife being stabbed and with it having only been one stab, they would be better able to analyze the wound and figure out the size weapon capable of making it.

They need to check the cliffs behind the cottage and see if there isn't a murder weapon.

Cloe what your suggesting is too easy. If Amanda took Meredith's keys, then why haven't they been found? The whole scene does not show the mind of a cunning killer or planner, yet you are assuming that she was cunning. I don't think the evidence shows her to be that organized.

[Jester]

I've been reading more articles about this case, and one thing that occurred to me is that both the neighbor and Amanda claim that Meredith screamed. I find that to be an interesting detail. Either Amanda had read reports about the neighbor, the police put words in her mouth, or she knew a detail about the night of the murder that could not have been known by someone that was not there.

[mafitz701]

SlickLime if I come across as being hard on you or deriding you please know that is not my intention. I get a little frustrated, but if it comes across as deriding then I am very sorry.

Yes she was actually pricked with the tip of a knife around the same area of the stab wound two other times. LE are assuming the stab was an accident because they think whoever did it tried to render aid. What is odd about the stab is that it went right through her wind pipe, severed her hyoid bone and continued down. So either whoever stabbed her is beyond ignorant about the risk of death from a stab to that part of someone's neck with such a large knife, or the intention was to kill her.

For facts on this case I would encourage you to go through PerugiaShock.com's 2008 section. At least as far as what is being said in court and admitted as evidence.

Unfortunately LE over there really messed the investigation up to the extent that we may never know what happened.

You may be right though, it could explain why she had two pricks that barely broke the skin, and then one fatal wound.

Jester no the neighbor did not report hearing screaming, she reported a year after the fact that she heard a boy and girl fighting. Or she might be the one that said she heard two people running away?

She was raped by Guede, I think we can agree on that. There is no way she would have consented to sex with someone like him. Patrick was Amanda's boss but smitten with Meredith. What if it was Patrick that was rejected by Meredith, and it was how the whole thing was orchestrated.

I am convinced Amanda was there, no real evidence puts her there, but I am convinced she knew something was going to happen and had happened. I just can't figure out why. I think if the shoeprint evidence that puts Sollecito at the crime scene is accurate, and given the fact that a pair of Nike Air Force 1 sneakers run over $100 a pair (making it harder for someone like Guede to get a pair), then Amanda knew about it. Before and After. No way she wouldn't have.

But, another thing with Patrick. He texted Amanda, phone records prove there was communication that night between them. They both said that he texted her telling her not to come to work that night because the bar was closed. BUT, the bar was opened that night, even Lumumba asserted this, he just opened it after 10pm that night.

So why would he text her telling her the bar was going to be closed? And where are Meredith's keys? Guede is not a smart individual, that was clear from the amount of evidence he left of himself at the crime scene and the fact that he likely threw the cell phones into the yard next door on his way to his house, which BTW the yard was on the way too. But manage to make the keys disappear?

I wish LE would look for the damn knife and the keys. At least try to look. The keys to the apartment downstairs were in the apartment, and someone had gone into the apartment downstairs and gotten Meredith's blood on a light fixture. Yet this has never been explained.

Meredith would be suspicious of Guede. Patrick probably not because she knew him to be a bar owner, and not the drug dealing drifter that Guede was. She wouldn't be suspicious of Amanda or Raf. Also they have a witness that puts Amanda at Raf's apartment because she answered Raf's door and spoke with her after 10pm. Not Raf who Amanda claims was sleeping at the time.

Italian LE only checked CCTV footage for later in the evening, they by their own words did not check footage prior to Meredith returning to her apartment at around 9pm.

Yet there is no reliable testimony or evidence to put Guede with Amanda or Raf at any time. They can only prove that Guede sold pot to Solenza who lived downstairs and was Meredith's ex-boyfriend. They can link Guede to Patrick because Patrick himself admitted he knew Guede but not well.

The witness that puts Amanda at Raf's apartment came forward the day after the murder, and said she spoke to Amanda to have her tell Raf he didn't need to give her a ride. The witness that claims he saw Guede, Raf, and Amanda laughing together came forward over a year later along with a long string of other witnesses that reporters literally rounded up. Not LE, reporters.

[n/t]

No her throat was stabbed, she was stabbed at a downward angle not slashed.

If Amanda was fired by Patrick as the (dailymail) which btw is the English equivalent of the Enquirer in the US, then why would Patrick text her telling her the bar was closed that night and so she didn't need to come to work?

I think you guys might be running away with innuendo on this one.

The bomb threat was a part of the testimony given on 2/6 by Lana the neighbor and her two kids that found the cell phones in their yard. Someone called a bombthreat into her house telling her there was a bomb under the toilet, police came and checked her garden out and then left. This happened on the night of the murder.

The good thing about the knife being stabbed and with it having only been one stab, they would be better able to analyze the wound and figure out the size weapon capable of making it.

They need to check the cliffs behind the cottage and see if there isn't a murder weapon.

Cloe what your suggesting is too easy. If Amanda took Meredith's keys, then why haven't they been found? The whole scene does not show the mind of a cunning killer or planner, yet you are assuming that she was cunning. I don't think the evidence shows her to be that organized.


Kercher, a British exchange student from the University of Leeds, was found half-naked with her throat slashed on Nov. 2, 2007, in her bedroom in the apartment she shared with Knox and two Italian women.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=6658177&page=1

Miss Kercher was found semi-naked and with her throat slashed in her bedroom of the house she shared with Knox and the two Italian girls in the hill top town of Perugia in November 2007.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1114322/Amanda-Knox-launches-500-000-bid-murder-trial-thrown-court-damaging-book-published.html

She was found semi-naked with her throat slashed, under a duvet on the floor of her bedroom in the hillside cottage that she shared with Ms Knox and two Italian women.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5529778.ece

I could go on and on....can you tell us where you got that her throat was stabbed??

[n/t]

Being stabbed to death might have been an accident.

There were 2 other knife marks on Meredith's throat, right? Maybe she was stabbed when fighting to get away.

Okay. Don't yell. Just another idea.

Too many coincidences in this case. Has to be a contiguous thread somewhere.

Mafitz701, there's really no need to be so hard on us. I, for one, have begged and pleaded for some facts on this case. Please take the time to discuss it instead of deriding us for the few little pieces of info we can find.


Also provide links backing up statements she claims as fact. This is a difficult case to follow. We need to weed out rumours vs facts. Just because a poster claims it fact does NOT make it fact.

As posted above, all reports indicate Meredith's throat was "slashed" not stabbed as Mafitz claims.

[n/t]

Oh dear. Wish we had collaborating reports. Some are describing them as stab wounds. Which is correct? What was presented as evidence? Does it matter? Would it make a difference as to what type of murder weapon (knife) was used whether her throat was slashed or stabbed?

====

Less than two hours later the locked door of Miss Kercher's bedroom was kicked in and she was found lying on the floor in a pool of her own blood with three deep stab wounds to her neck.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/4550982/Amanda-Knox-raised-alarm-over-murder-of-flatmate-Meredith-Kercher.html


stab
1: a wound produced by a pointed weapon
2 a: a thrust of a pointed weapon b: a jerky thrust
3: effort , try
4: a sudden sharp feeling <stabs of regret>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stab

slash
intransitive verb
: to lash out, cut, or thrash about with or as if with an edged blade
transitive verb
1 : to cut with or as if with rough sweeping strokes
2 : cane , lash
3 : to cut slits in (as a garment) so as to reveal a color beneath
4 : to criticize cuttingly
5 : to reduce sharply : cut
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slash

[n/t]

To add to my post above, stab wounds to me would indicate that it was a revenge type crime. Someone was so angry to stab Meredith 3 times in the neck. Slash would indicate a sex type crime as rape and/or silencing the victim. JMO

I think it makes a big difference. Excellent question SlickLime.

[Debb]

It's interesting that American talking heads seem so preoccupied with a 22 year old mother who murdered her daughter in what looks like and open and shut case, yet this bizarre mystery is pretty much ignored. That says a lot about what gets people interested in murders ... emotional experience rather than sleuthing.

You have a point. I have been interested in the case, but didn't see much about it until recently. I haven't read all the posts, but intend to go back and review them.

I have no idea if there is a consenus here, one way or the other about the guilt of this girl. I have heard it both ways, but have not formed an opinion either way.

I saw the girl's mother and I think another family member speaking out on her behalf last week. It seems they were shooting down all these myths about evidence in the case. The problem with me is that I thought there were too many excuses. They made me more suspicious of the girl.

Also, when people say someone is incapable of committing a crime or or violence, I don't buy it. You never really know someone completely. You can't really say that about anyone. There are horrific killers whose famly members thought they were wonderful, loving people.

[cloe23]

It's interesting that American talking heads seem so preoccupied with a 22 year old mother who murdered her daughter in what looks like and open and shut case, yet this bizarre mystery is pretty much ignored. That says a lot about what gets people interested in murders ... emotional experience rather than sleuthing.

ITA! I in my head that 22yr old mother is convicted.
What a beautiful young lady Meredith Kercher was she had her whole life ahead of her. Another poster mentioned that this case has it all, drugs, sex, lies and murder. Hoping for more media coverage as well.
I have read a few good articles written by US journalist most from
2007. They are old now.

[cloe23]

No her throat was stabbed, she was stabbed at a downward angle not slashed.

If Amanda was fired by Patrick as the (dailymail) which btw is the English equivalent of the Enquirer in the US, then why would Patrick text her telling her the bar was closed that night and so she didn't need to come to work?

I think you guys might be running away with innuendo on this one.

The bomb threat was a part of the testimony given on 2/6 by Lana the neighbor and her two kids that found the cell phones in their yard. Someone called a bombthreat into her house telling her there was a bomb under the toilet, police came and checked her garden out and then left. This happened on the night of the murder.

The good thing about the knife being stabbed and with it having only been one stab, they would be better able to analyze the wound and figure out the size weapon capable of making it.

They need to check the cliffs behind the cottage and see if there isn't a murder weapon.Cloe what your suggesting is too easy. If Amanda took Meredith's keys, then why haven't they been found? The whole scene does not show the mind of a cunning killer or planner, yet you are assuming that she was cunning. I don't think the evidence shows her to be that organized.

TY for the insight about 'daily mail'.
When or if LE searches over the cliff for the murder weapon maybe they will find Meredith's keys as well?:confused:

[lunchlady]

You have a point. I have been interested in the case, but didn't see much about it until recently. I haven't read all the posts, but intend to go back and review them.

I have no idea if there is a consenus here, one way or the other about the guilt of this girl. I have heard it both ways, but have not formed an opinion either way.

I saw the girl's mother and I think another family member speaking out on her behalf last week. It seems they were shooting down all these myths about evidence in the case. The problem with me is that I thought there were too many excuses. They made me more suspicious of the girl.

Also, when people say someone is incapable of committing a crime or or violence, I don't buy it. You never really know someone completely. You can't really say that about anyone. There are horrific killers whose famly members thought they were wonderful, loving people.

I didn't see the Knox family but would have been interested to see their personalities and affect. I always take family protestations of innocence with a grain of salt, especially when they deny all impropriety of any sort. You can spin anything in a positive or negative way. Some family seem to go into deep denial even in the face of hard cold evidence. I think some families want the accused to go free even if they admit that the accused is guilty, wanting to salvage the accused's life more than they can accept them deserving to be punished or protecting future victims.
Also I've noticed that kids who victimize other people often have parents who will defend them and make excuses for them no matter what, even when their kid is obviously in the wrong. It doesn't help the kid turn into a good citizen and it sure doesn't help society.

Even the worst criminal often has someone in their life they share their more positive attributes with. Gangster movies like to use that as a plot device. That's why some serial killers escape detection for years, because they are able to act sufficiently normal most of the time.

My overall impression of this girl is that she is not innocent. I think that at the very least she helped arrange Meredith's encounter with Guede with bad intentions for how that would be for Meredith. I'm not so sure she intended Meredith to die or even realized that Meredith would be raped, but the evidence makes me think she didn't care much about it before or after it happened.
The photos of Amanda and Raf in the lingerie store turn me against them more anything else. The discovery of a dead roommate sure wouldn't put me in a sexually frisky mood and it seems very abnormal and suspicious that they are acting and talking that way in the store. I probably wouldn't behave that way in any case, but I would expect someone to be somber, stricken, preoccupied, horrified, etc for quite awhile after a trauma like that.

[cloe23]

How do they know the knife doesn't match the wounds? I don't much about forensics. Wonder if they've bothered to look further for the knife.

I don't know about forensics but did read that the original knife was suggest to be a kitchen knife and didn't match Meredith's neck wounds and it was thrown out as evidence? I have also read suggestions that Raffaele had a knife collection? Its really hard to figure out what is fact and what is fiction being written about this case.:mellow:

[mafitz701]

I have posted the links and quoted the sources I don't know why people don't read them and then want me to repost this stuff.

But here goes:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/02/collateral-element.html
Cause of Death
"For example, the cause of death, which, until yesterday was described as a generic "meta-hemorrhagic shock," is now explained as heart failure due to a combination of hemorrhaging and asphyxia. The main carotid artery was not cut, but a lesser one was. So the hemorrhaging was significant, and the blood that filtered into the respiratory tract caused asphyxia."

" the hyoid bone was broken.This would normally suggest an attempted strangling, but Lalli does not confirm this hypothesis, defining it as a collateral element, and we do not know if it preceded the stabbing. He implies that the breaking of the bone could have occurred after the stabbing."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2843350.ece
From Judge's Report:
"The girl, found dead with a blow to her neck with a sharp weapon, was identified as Meredith Kercher, an English student in Italy from September and enrolled on the Erasmus scheme and at the University of Perugia.

“From the first medical examination of the corpse by the pathologist, Dr Luca Lalli, it has been established that death occurred at 11pm at the earliest and at the latest one hour after, with a time frame between 10pm and midnight on November 1, 2007.

“The fact that Meredith was a victim of violence is evident from the state in which her body was found. In Dr Lalli's report there is evidence of bruising on the lips, gums and chin.

“There are the bruises and the lesions on the neck, which suggest that Meredith was held by the neck, leaving bruising compatible with the pressure of fingers, and subsequently threatened with a knife held to her throat."

Backing up what is reported with the photographs of the injuries at Perugia Shock.

Injuries Found:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=50

Bruises:
Genital Bruising (The Collateral Element)

Bruising to mouth area consistent with someone hold a hand over her mouth

Large Bruise to the back of her head (diagram photo under "The Assailant was only one")

Perugia Shock "Pointing at the Murderer":
The UACV Report:
Photos as follows:
Multiple small bruises under her jawbone on the left side of her head consistent with someone holding her head back
Large bruise on her right thigh top side
Small bruises at her elbows of both arms consistent with being held
Bruises on right forearm

[mafitz701]

On the suspected murder weapons:
First from the Judge's Report
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568860/Meredith-Kercher-murder-Judge's-report.html

First Murder Weapon
This objective fact cannot but represent a grave indication of guilt on the part of Sollecito Raffaele which is deepened further if combined with the removal from his person of a flick knife with an 8.5cm blade, defined by the pathologist as compatible with the possible murder weapon.


Then it was found to not be a match and in comes murder weapon number two:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2007/12/all-possible-theories.html

This is the knife in which they said they found Amanda's DNA on handle and Meredith's DNA on blade.

This is the kitchen knife taken from Sollecito's apartment.

Links to back it up:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/29/meredith-kercher-guede-knox-sollecito

"Investigators also say they found Knox's DNA coupled with Meredith's DNA on a knife in Sollecito's kitchen which is believed to be the murder weapon"

"The weapon was foundin the flat of Knox's boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.

Sky's Nick Pisa said: "It was a knife found earlier this week when police searched Sollecito's house."

[mafitz701]

On the bloody knife impression and the assumed murder weapon:

Here with photos: http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/pointing-at-murderer.html

Pointing at the murderer. The UACV Report.

"The trace J and an unsuccessful attempt to make it match to The Knife"

"They tried all possibilities but in no way The Knife could really fit"

[mafitz701]

Relationship between Meredith and Amanda.

From the judge's report
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568860/Meredith-Kercher-murder-Judge's-report.html

"Romanelli Filomena, when first interviewed, on November 2 2007, said she was living in the apartment on the second floor of the building in via Pergola 7 with Laura Mezzetti, Knox Amanda and Meredith Kercher.

Romanelli had above all ties with Laura Mezzetti also because of shared interests, while the two foreign girls were close and had similar daily habits in that both were students who usually went together to the university and had the same circle of friends."

On the relationship between Silenza and Meredith:
Judge's Report:

"and nothing in particular emerged about her private life except that for around three weeks she had had a sentimental attachment with SILENZI Giacomo, one of the four boys who lived in the apartment on the ground floor of the building at Via della Pergola 7, the others being Marzan Marco, Bonassi Stefano and Luciani Riccardo."
"She pointed out in successive interviews, on November 7 2007, that Meredith had never let any man into her bedroom except for Silenzi Giacomo, her boyfriend. "

[lunchlady]

Thanx for reposting all those links mafitz- you're helping me get hooked on this case.
I'm amazed that they post post-mortem photos on the internet.
The bloody footprints seem pretty incriminating.
Murder should be left to the professionals. Amateurs are so sloppy, and murder is a messy business.

[mafitz701]

On CCTV footage here:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/09/ghosts-around-house.html

It has the actual footage so you can watch it yourself.


Then he has several blogs on the witnesses, most very bizarre. And how they came to be rounded up.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/12/superwitness-and-forgetful.html

Superwitness and Forgetful

"Let's go back to Nara, for instance. I've always found Nara reliable because she said something unexpected and new (and she looked really terrified by that experience). But if you talk to Nara today she has new memories: she now says that sometimes in October she could tell that the relation between Meredith and Amanda got spoiled because at the beginning they were always together but in the last weeks they were always walking alone. But Nara didn't know Meredith and Amanda. So we can tell the difference between a genuine memory and a conditioned one (in the same person)."

"Toto I had the impression that his testimony was studied because he says he saw them at the basketball court and right after he crossed the square to go check the clock, that's why he knew that it was almost midnight. It looked to me like those murderers who have ready the alibi-receipt for when the police will go question them. He remembered such details after 3 months and many meetings with the journalists who convinced him to talk. But then, it looks like he didn't study the part too well because in his deposition he says that in the square there were masks and witches (see picture bel.), so it was Halloween not the November 1st!"

then from Toto's own deposition to police:
"'I was looking upfront to see the students masked or dressed in black or as witches'"

The Store Clerk whose store was not opening until 0745:
"Then Marco has a very clear memory of Amanda coming to shop as soon as he opened the store on November 2. He remembers exactly the way she was dressed, the color of the scarf, the price of the Ace bleach of one year ago. Just he doesn't remember what she bought and if she bought something. He admits that the police came right after the crime and sized the whole record of the sales."

Then Frank talking to the guy:
"Then I had a particular experience with this guy when last week --as soon as he was known-- I went to interview him but he denied to be the witness. He didn't just deny, he made a great scene explaining that for him it would be impossible to say who came to the shop even one day later, even 12 hours later, even if the person was someone he knew, even if the person became then famous, even if.. even if... Really a great scene. Very convincing. To convince him that he was lying I had to come back next day showing the deposition he had signed..."

Then they have the tow truck driver who claimed it was pouring rain that night in his deposition when he saw a dark colored car parked outside the cottage (murder site). Except it was not raining that night.

[mafitz701]

Thanx for reposting all those links mafitz- you're helping me get hooked on this case.
I'm amazed that they post post-mortem photos on the internet.
The bloody footprints seem pretty incriminating.
Murder should be left to the professionals. Amateurs are so sloppy, and murder is a messy business.

Are you kidding me, like there aren't enough cold cases because of the lack of sloppy killers that LE has to deal with. :wink:

[mafitz701]

When I have more time I will next post the issues on the timelines as well as the transcript of Raf's call to the Carabinieri. But for now, I have to get to housewife things. My kids and hubby get mad when I forget about them.

[Aradia5]

SlickLime if I come across as being hard on you or deriding you please know that is not my intention. I get a little frustrated, but if it comes across as deriding then I am very sorry.
.

You have done your homework. TY! :wink:

[Shyone]

Good Morning...Would this trial be televised and if so which network..I didnt see any in the links thread... Thanxs!

[GossipGirl]

I read the link from the post upthread, and honestly I don't know how involved Amanda and her BF were with this thing, I really don't.
Could be that they were, could be that they were not.

The droplets of blood in the bathroom and the streak of blood on the floor and the open door at 10:30 a.m. certainly appear to have some fabrication to them. I don't buy any of that story. No one comes home to an open apt, finds blood on the floor, and non chalantly goes about showering etc.
I wonder if the two of them brought G up to the apt from downstairs and then something happened between him and Meredith which went wrong, and he killed her while the other two were there.
They may have tried to extricate themselves.

it's all very bizarre and I wish CTV was showing this trial as opposed to that lunacy up in Mass.
GG

[lunchlady]

I think Amanda set Meredith up for an unpleasant encounter with Guede for petty reasons, and may or may not have known that rape and/or murder would happen. The evidence indicates to me that A&R tried to clean up and cover up afterwards, whatever their level of involvement in planning and executing the rape and murder.
Its hard to think that they would plan and participate in such a crime, but its hard for me to understand why anyone would ever do such a thing. The more true crime I read about the more potentially depraved and downright stupid I realize people can be.
Perhaps this crime occurred because A&R thought it would be a more exciting way to celebrate Halloween, and would kill two birds with one stone- Meredith and Patrick. Amanda had resentments towards both of them.

[joolz]

I think Amanda set Meredith up for an unpleasant encounter with Guede for petty reasons, and may or may not have known that rape and/or murder would happen. The evidence indicates to me that A&R tried to clean up and cover up afterwards, whatever their level of involvement in planning and executing the rape and murder.
Its hard to think that they would plan and participate in such a crime, but its hard for me to understand why anyone would ever do such a thing. The more true crime I read about the more potentially depraved and downright stupid I realize people can be.
Perhaps this crime occurred because A&R thought it would be a more exciting way to celebrate Halloween, and would kill two birds with one stone- Meredith and Patrick. Amanda had resentments towards both of them.

That is a really interesting theory LL, and it seems to fit perfectly with what we know (or think we know) about Amanda's personality and psychology - the girl seems a bit twisted. The only thing that nags me about it is, don't you think R would have copped to that by now rather than face murder charges himself?

Jeesh this one is difficult to follow!

[cloe23]

One thing I find interesting about this case is that the entire downstairs flatmates were not there, the two gals that lived with Meredith and Amanda, gone. Dose this suggest to premeditation ?
I think it dose.

[mafitz701]

I read the link from the post upthread, and honestly I don't know how involved Amanda and her BF were with this thing, I really don't.
Could be that they were, could be that they were not.

The droplets of blood in the bathroom and the streak of blood on the floor and the open door at 10:30 a.m. certainly appear to have some fabrication to them. I don't buy any of that story. No one comes home to an open apt, finds blood on the floor, and non chalantly goes about showering etc.
I wonder if the two of them brought G up to the apt from downstairs and then something happened between him and Meredith which went wrong, and he killed her while the other two were there.
They may have tried to extricate themselves.

it's all very bizarre and I wish CTV was showing this trial as opposed to that lunacy up in Mass.
GG


That is exactly what I was wondering to GossipGirl. Could explain the blood in the apartment downstairs.

[mafitz701]

Okay apparently the shoe print was matched to Guede. I was reading back yesterday through the court blogs on Guede's trial and the Prosecutor admitted the shoe evidence as belonging to Guede and said they found the empty box for the Nike Air Force 1s in Guede's house.

Here:
Perugia Shock "We Get The Picture"

"-The shoe print initially attributed to Raffaele is, by his own admission, Rudy's. He explained, in his interrogation with the Pm, that they found the box at his place but he had thrown the shoes away in Germany."


While looking for that I found something very troubling. Way back when I had posted about Guede being found with a large knife hiding in a school, it turned out to be a kindergarten. He was found with a lap top and cell phone that he had stolen from a law firm. Read for this?

At Perugia Shock "Yet Another Window"
"Today we have to go back to October 15, when Rudy was found in a Milan kindergarten. On that occasion, he had a cellphone and a laptop with him. What is odd is that these possessions of his had been stolen earlier from a law firm in Perugia. The lawyers had reported the theft to the police and the police discovered that the thief, whoever he was, had entered through a window 4 meters from the ground"

4 Meters is roughly 13 to 14 feet off of the ground.

[dgfred]

It seems hard to believe that Amanda and Raf are not involved in some way, however little with their strange statements and actions. But do you think G may have broken through the window on his own? I thought
it looked like a coverup with the glass on the inside, etc.
Why would Amanda not notice the blood and locked door and at least try to contact Meredith? All is soooo strange.

[mafitz701]

I don't know if Guede came in through the window. When I found that I was a little surprised to find out that going through windows that high off the ground was part of his mo for burglaries.

I still think Amanda and Raf knew about it. You don't come home to your apartment (especially as a single woman) find the door open, find that someone had used the toilet and not flushed, then take a shower. Even if you do think the traces of blood in your bathroom were from a halloween costume or something else.

The interrogation lasted 14 hours, even in the US that is alarming. But even if you discount her stories as a result of feeling desparate to end the interrogation, you still have to explain how a single woman could come home to a combination of unusual circumstances and take a shower?

Then why was Amanda's bedroom the only one not rifled through? Why did it take Amanda and Raf almost 2 hours to raise the alarm that morning? Why did they turn their cell phones off at 9pm the evening of the murder?

It just makes them look like they were involved. Maybe if it was just one thing that was weird, but so many different suspicious acts? It typically happens like that because someone is guilty.

Italian LE really messed up this investigation so badly. If they had just been more savvy with the investigation perhaps there would be stronger physical evidence, and fewer questions.

1. No murder weapon (but they didn't look hard for one either)
2. They left the Lumumba issue wide open.
3. They botched the collection of key evidence, like the bra clasp.
4. No fingerprint collection from the cell phones found in the yard next door.
5. They didn't collect Meredith's fingernails and do scrapings of her fingernails.
6. They didn't dust the broken window for fingerprints.
7. They didn't collect all of the CCTV footage from earlier in the day on November 1.
8. They didn't find away to close up leads like the internet activity on Sollecito's computer.
9. They changed their murder weapons not once but twice.
10. They leaked their entire investigation including crime scene photos and video footage to the press. Making the entirety of their investigation a media driven one.
11. They assumed to much, and did not do the verification they should have on each and every lead.
12. They admitted not one but many bad witnesses to testify and be discredited further weakening their case.
13. They found one DNA marker on the blade of the second knife they claim is the murder weapon that was shared by Meredith and called that a match.
14. They never searched the mountainside directly behind the cottage for the murder weapon, the missing keys, and other evidence.
15. They moved Meredith's body and then repositioned it.
16. They took the mattress from Meredith's bed and moved it into Filomena's room during their crime scene examination and then put it back.
17. They never even searched the bushes around the cottage for evidence.

They just messed this case up so bad, and much of the opportunity to correct their "mistakes" is gone due to the amount of time that has passed.

[mafitz701]

On the toilet flushing, let me clarify something. For a woman it is unusual not to flush toilets in general. A woman living with other women, no men in the house, an unflushed toilet, especially feces, is an alarmbell coupled with an open door, and what looks to be blood.

Its the kind of thing even my 10 and 11 year old daughters are sticklers about. I had roommates when I was younger, and we were all sticklers about it. Its just not something you do. Its considered very bad manners.

[cloe23]

When I have more time I will next post the issues on the timelines as well as the transcript of Raf's call to the Carabinieri. But for now, I have to get to housewife things. My kids and hubby get mad when I forget about them.

Thanks mafitz for all the links and information that you have posted.
You provided this thread with so much to read, I appreciate it!:smile:

[cloe23]

On the toilet flushing, let me clarify something. For a woman it is unusual not to flush toilets in general. A woman living with other women, no men in the house, an unflushed toilet, especially feces, is an alarmbell coupled with an open door, and what looks to be blood.

Its the kind of thing even my 10 and 11 year old daughters are sticklers about. I had roommates when I was younger, and we were all sticklers about it. Its just not something you do. Its considered very bad manners.

This not flushing of the toilet thing has bothered me. One time I think that Rudy Guede was messed up from drugs and the entire night that he simply forgot?
I just now am wondering what kind of environment he was born and raised in? Did RG only sometimes use a toilet that is flushed? Therefore he never developed the habit of flushing?
And then the idea that Amanda was in that bathroom and didn't flush it just doesn't set right with me, maybe Amanda wasn't in that bathroom or she was and the lid was left down.(so she didn't notice)?
BTW I agree I have given AK to much credit with the orchestrating of this horrific crime.

[mafitz701]

The problem is that it may not matter. Its why I keep harping on the way they investigated the murder.

See, there is a chance that any guilty verdict may get overturned or they may be found not guilty because the case was put together so poorly. Evidence contaminated, not collected, tampered with, the way everything was leaked to the media for over a year leading up to the trial, the bad witnesses.

The authorities totally blew this case, short of a confession, they blew any chance of people knowing exactly what happened, and who was involved.

Lumumba could have been involved, and I am still not convinced he wasn't, but there could be another suspect. Raf was likely there, it was supposed to be his bloody footprint on the bathmat.

We still haven't found a viable connection between Rudy and Amanda and Raf. Lumumba and Silenza (Meredith's ex-boyfriend) were the only two that were known to have known Rudy.

[dgfred]

On the toilet flushing, let me clarify something. For a woman it is unusual not to flush toilets in general. A woman living with other women, no men in the house, an unflushed toilet, especially feces, is an alarmbell coupled with an open door, and what looks to be blood.

Its the kind of thing even my 10 and 11 year old daughters are sticklers about. I had roommates when I was younger, and we were all sticklers about it. Its just not something you do. Its considered very bad manners.

Gross for women to be sure, but guys don't mind leaving one to brag/disgust their friends... which I hate to even say :blushing: .
As far as the case it does prove G was there and I think it was mentioned somewhere that Amanda did notice it.

[mafitz701]

Yes dgFred it was one of her reasons for being concerned when she got to her apartment.

The door was wide open, she found droplets of blood in the bathroom she normally used, and someone had used the toilet but not flushed.

So, she takes a shower...

What is going on in the trial:

Luca (Filomena's boyfriend):
"I should have added that Luca asked Comodi if she thought he was stupid for being mistaken about that. (Don't worry Luca, you are not stupid, you were just mistaken. Nobody's perfect. And maybe you did another little mistake of comprehension...)
Luca explains immediately his mistake without any problem, I saw two cellphones on the table but the thing that they were both Meredith's' was my conclusion. Because they were talking that two cellphones were found and 2 cellphones were on the table. I also saw a piece of paper with 2 phone numbers written on it.
Battistelli repeats: I brought only one of Meredith's cellphones. The other one is my own. The description corresponds, Battistelli is right.
As for the piece of paper the inspector explains. Amanda wrote Meredith's numbers on it."

Battistelli was the first investigator on the scene and he was the one sent to return the cell phone from the postal police. Another runaway media kept it reported that there were two cell phones found, but it was the one, and it was Filomena's cell phone with Meredith's sim card in it that was tossed into the garden next door.

So anyway, Battistelli goes off on the witness stand:
"Paola and Luca saw Battistelli entering the room. He denies.
Paola's testimony at the end is not very effective because she can't say she really sees him in the room, and gets reduced to the sole deduction that the inspector must have entered.
(And who wouldn't enter a room when there's a girl under a duvet?)
But Luca saw him very clearly. And doesn't have any problem in recalling again, quiet and easy, those 3 steps towards Meredith. What's more simple than that? He saw him stepping inside and going to lift the end of the duvet.
But the face-to-face, for the inspector, is different. Not quiet, not easy.
He was already nervous when he was right, about the cellphones. Now he's agitated, he loses his temper all the time, shaking his head and body as if he was trying to escape from a nightmare, interrupting the questions with excuses for trying not to answer, like loud Counselor, it's stuff of one year and and a half ago!, tyring to kill the interrogation with I don't knows in a series, stating that he even doesn't remember who wrote on a piece of paper the two Meredith's numbers, now. Now he even doesn't remember if there was a piece of paper. He even doesn't remembers if there were two cellphones anymore. He can't help anymore or he doesn't want to help. He doesn't remember anything."

[lunchlady]

The turd/shower thing is weird to me for another reason. If she felt comfortable enough to take a shower in there why didn't she flush the turd? It would be smelly and gross, plus if she wanted to use the pot she would want to flush it first. Was she thinking it was evidence already?

Is this the same bathroom that had the bloody bathmats? Or was that the other bathroom? The amount of blood on the bathmats would finish freaking me out enough that I wouldn't take a shower there, even if I had convinced myself to not be scared of the other things she said she noticed. I would have left a lot sooner and called the police, probably even before I entered the apartment if it was unusual to find it unlocked.

The more I read the evidence the more it seems like A&R attempted a coverup/cleanup. Why would they cover up for Guede if they weren't also guilty? I suspect that they were so arrogant and excited about the crime that they didn't take it too seriously. Like a student who thinks they've written a brilliant paper although they've only applied themselves the last evening before it was due.

I am also underwhelmed by the quantity, quality, and timing of their denials. It contributes to my overall feeling of their guilt. But I am also underwhelmed by the prosecutor's case. Did the initial investigators feel like they had so much evidence that they weren't very thorough OR careful? Are they that inexperienced with murder scenes? I've been to Perugia and it's a medium sized city, seems pretty safe compared to Rome, Naples, Vienna, even Florence. Even if they weren't well seasoned I would expect them to look more for the murder weapon, keys, fingerprints on the phones, and so on.

[mafitz701]

The instector still can't come up with the actual time he arrived at the cottage. He might have gotten lost trying to find it, but the problem is he wrote one time down on his report, testified to another time, and then by Feb. 8 he was back to saying it was the time he put on his report.

He is a problem.
Perugia Shock Blog of Frank Sfarzo.

Filomena's testimony answers the following:
"Meredith and Amanda, as soon as they meet in the house, become naturally friends, having the same age and the same interests. They meet the boys downstairs and would hang up with them sometimes. Then they would start meeting with other people. Meredith --as it comes naturally-- gets along with the other english girls and Amanda starts to work and make her own friends.
Filomena isn't too much at home, so she can't really say what is the daily life between Amanda and Meredith. But the legend of their bad relation turned to be, today, only a discussion about cleaning, since Amanda skipped two cleaning shifts."

"For what Filomena knew, the other cliché of the legions of men Amanda is taking in the house are, at the end, one man one time, who Amanda introduces to Laura."

"The legendary Amanda's craziness, or eccentricity, is that she would suddenly start doing yoga while conversing. Or playing guitar while watching TV (unbelievable extravaganzas, probably, for Filomena's very local mind set)."

"The time when Filomena talked to Meredith about the rent money.
Amanda steps by them at the beginning of the conversation. But Amanda didn't look like being listening to us since she stepped away and went elsewhere in the house.
So Filomena couldn't say, today, if Amanda hears what Meredith says (I can give you the money today (without specifying if she already has them in the room)) and her own answer (no, give me them after the holiday).
After the holiday Filomena would have collected the money from the all of them. And who's task would have been this time to go send them to the landlady? Amanda's."

And the last part is most interesting. If Amanda was the one to take the rent money to the landlady she had no reason to come up with a way to steal it.

Need a new motive.

[mafitz701]

Correction on the cell phones. I was reading the first day of testimony and it was first the old woman who found one cell phone, and then later that day her daughter found the next cell phone.

[cloe23]

I don't know if Guede came in through the window. When I found that I was a little surprised to find out that going through windows that high off the ground was part of his mo for burglaries.

I still think Amanda and Raf knew about it. You don't come home to your apartment (especially as a single woman) find the door open, find that someone had used the toilet and not flushed, then take a shower. Even if you do think the traces of blood in your bathroom were from a halloween costume or something else.

The interrogation lasted 14 hours, even in the US that is alarming. But even if you discount her stories as a result of feeling desparate to end the interrogation, you still have to explain how a single woman could come home to a combination of unusual circumstances and take a shower?

Then why was Amanda's bedroom the only one not rifled through? Why did it take Amanda and Raf almost 2 hours to raise the alarm that morning? Why did they turn their cell phones off at 9pm the evening of the murder?

It just makes them look like they were involved. Maybe if it was just one thing that was weird, but so many different suspicious acts? It typically happens like that because someone is guilty.

Italian LE really messed up this investigation so badly. If they had just been more savvy with the investigation perhaps there would be stronger physical evidence, and fewer questions.

1. No murder weapon (but they didn't look hard for one either)
2. They left the Lumumba issue wide open.
3. They botched the collection of key evidence, like the bra clasp.
4. No fingerprint collection from the cell phones found in the yard next door.
5. They didn't collect Meredith's fingernails and do scrapings of her fingernails.
6. They didn't dust the broken window for fingerprints.
7. They didn't collect all of the CCTV footage from earlier in the day on November 1.
8. They didn't find away to close up leads like the internet activity on Sollecito's computer.
9. They changed their murder weapons not once but twice.
10. They leaked their entire investigation including crime scene photos and video footage to the press. Making the entirety of their investigation a media driven one.
11. They assumed to much, and did not do the verification they should have on each and every lead.
12. They admitted not one but many bad witnesses to testify and be discredited further weakening their case.
13. They found one DNA marker on the blade of the second knife they claim is the murder weapon that was shared by Meredith and called that a match.
14. They never searched the mountainside directly behind the cottage for the murder weapon, the missing keys, and other evidence.
15. They moved Meredith's body and then repositioned it.
16. They took the mattress from Meredith's bed and moved it into Filomena's room during their crime scene examination and then put it back.
17. They never even searched the bushes around the cottage for evidence.

They just messed this case up so bad, and much of the opportunity to correct their "mistakes" is gone due to the amount of time that has passed.

#1.-#17. is unbelievable! Did LE even try or think to check out the bottom flat where Meredith's ex-boyfriend lived with another guy.
What is it that the prosecution has that can hold 2 people in jail, fabrication? Now attempting to convict them of this murder knowing all the evidence they have is dirty, due to the pathetic LE investigation?
The shoe didn't match RS but RG? :cursing:
They leaked rumors into the media which spread like a wild fire.
Talk about injustice. JMO
To bad that Raffaele's father didn't pay for Amanda's defence or arrange for them to be represented together.

[cloe23]

So there was blood in the down stairs apartment, transfer blood from what I am reading.
I wonder why the two roommates downstairs were not considered suspects, especially Meredith's ex-boyfriend, this to me could be motive. LE should of started their investigation with him.

[mafitz701]

I wondered about that too, but all 3 boys were out of the area with family because of the holiday. The other thing though was that the LE found pot plants growing in the apartment downstairs, yet none of them were stolen?

But Amanda still comes home to find her front door open, not just unlocked but open, she finds some blood in the bathroom, enough that Filomena thought someone was menstruating, and she finds that someone had gone number 2 in the toilet. What does she do? She takes a shower. For Real? What single woman does that? She didn't know, if she really is innocent, that whoever left the door open was not still in the apartment with her, and she is getting naked? Who does that? She does not flush the toilet, which is also odd. But to take a shower after finding her front door open?

Did she search the apartment before she got in the shower? Or did she search it after her shower? And why hang around the apartment for at least a half hour before her call to Raf to tell him something was wrong?

Then between 12 and 1 pm she and Raf are doing what? Who knows at the apartment, with a broken window and they do not call police yet? Also how could they continue to wait for so long to contact police after having seen the state of the blood covered second bathroom? The door to it was not locked, it clearly looked like a someone had been badly injured, they find Meredith's bedroom door locked, they can not reach her on her phone, they do not get her by banging on her door, Raf supposedly tries to kick the door down, and it takes them an hour to call police?

That much blood would smell like BLOOD and it is a very distinct smell, you know its blood. I know, I have smelled even less blood than what covered that bathroom, and in a small enclosed room, it just hangs in the air even after you use bleach to clean up the mess, it still smells of blood. And my experience was after a man had slit his wrists in a seclusion room, he had not bled out anywhere near that much blood and it still smelled of that horrible sickly sweet stench. It smells bad enough that you have to fight back the vomit.

So how do you get past their actions that morning?

And the fact that someone tried to render aid to Meredith, they came to that conclusion I think because they found blood soaked towels. Someone covered Meredith up with the duvet, and when she died, someone pulled it up over her face. Someone that knew her enough to care about her.

I just don't see someone like Guede, as the kind of person who would bother to cover up the mostly nude dieing body of the woman that he had raped and stabbed. He would be in more of a hurry to get out of there before someone saw him. He showed up later and was seen after 4am at a local disco by witnesses and on camera. He was disowned by his adoptive family because he was robbing people and doing drugs. He was convicted of robbing the law firm, and had prior arrests for robbing women of their purses, being under the influence, and he was charged for being in the posession of a large knife (15cm) when they found him in the kindergarten.

It had to be where Raf and Amanda came in. It would not be the first time someone found someone dieing, and did not call police. It would not even be something you could call a rare occurence. Its happened so much in the US that they had to pass a law making it a crime to fail to render aid to a dieing person.

[Aradia5]

So there was blood in the down stairs apartment, transfer blood from what I am reading.
I wonder why the two roommates downstairs were not considered suspects, especially Meredith's ex-boyfriend, this to me could be motive. LE should of started their investigation with him.

This is just coming out now???

[Aradia5]

Gross for women to be sure, but guys don't mind leaving one to brag/disgust their friends... which I hate to even say :blushing: .
As far as the case it does prove G was there and I think it was mentioned somewhere that Amanda did notice it.


:lol::lol:

If I were Amanda I would have had a fit!

[mafitz701]

My latest theory on what happened is this:

And this is why. Had Guede been in the apartment downstairs, he would have taken the pot plants. He could never have resisted that. Laptops maybe, but not pot.

A witness puts Amanda in Raf's apartment right after 10pm. She spoke with Amanda, not Raf. Amanda claimed Raf was asleep. At 9:46pm someone logged on and downloaded a Naruto cartoon and then logged right off of Raf's computer.

I think it was Raf who logged on, and logged off, and it was because he and Amanda wanted to get stoned. But it was late, and a likely source for them to get their pot, would have been Silenza, but he and his roommates were all out of town with their families for the religous holiday of the dead.

But they know that Silenza left Meredith the keys to take care of something in the apartment, (I think it might have been to water the pot plants), and they spoke with her earlier in the day, she was wearing Silenza's jeans. They had just broke up, and Raf thought it (her wearing his jeans) was funny enough to make a note of it in his interview with police. I think it was during this meeting that she told them he left her his keys to the apartment, maybe cracked a joke about smoking all the pot while he was away, or hiding it from him, or something.

They decided later that evening that they wanted to get stoned, but had no pot. The witness puts Amanda at Raf's apartment just after 10pm. So, sometime between 9:46pm and 10pm Raf leaves the apartment for Amanda and Meredith's apartment. He has Amanda's keys. Raf goes Amanda stays. Which is why she is there to answer the door but Raf is not when the witness comes.

Raf goes into the apartment Guede goes out the window, it was open when they found it, by then Meredith would still be alive. Guede said he came out of the bathroom and found someone there, an Italian male. It was Raf. Raf doesn't know anything is wrong, he is just going to find the keys for downstairs, but he hears a strange sound coming from Meredith's bedroom (likely a gurgling wheezing as she fights to breathe) and finds Meredith. She is on the floor of her bedroom, naked except for the white t-shirt pulled up around her neck, she is drowning on her blood, he grabs the duvet and covers her up with it, grabs some towels to apply pressure to the gaping wound in her neck. She is dieing, and choking, he pushes her over to her side thinking it will help her breathe better, but instead she dies. He pulls the duvet up over her head. He can't help her anymore. He doesn't know which set of keys opens the door downstairs, and he is really shaken up, so what does he want more than anything, he wants to get stoned.

He gets some pot from downstairs, and leaves. When he gets to his apartment he tells Amanda what he found at her apartment. Maybe they argue over whether or not to call police, but he is really scared, what if they think its him, what if he left evidence that he was there behind. He touched everything. He even has Meredith's keys because he didn't know which ones would open the door to the apartment downstairs. So in the morning, Raf calls his sister who is a policewoman with the carabineiri (spelling), she would know what to do, he makes three calls to her before he calls 112 (Italy's 911), she tells him what to do, call the police, but first make sure you left nothing behind.

They lock the door to Meredith's bedroom, more out of fear of the dead, than anything else, maybe they find bloody shoeprints in the hallway, they don't know if they were from Raf or the killer so Amanda mops them up. The bleach bottles in the apartment were one unopened and one nearly full, they didn't use a lot of bleach. They return the keys to the apartment downstairs to where Raf had found them, Amanda was barefooted while mopping, because we all know shoes track dirt on a wet floor. They wipe up the larger bathroom, probably because Raf or Amanda or both got sick from the smell and site of all of the blood. But they stayed out of the bloody bathroom, because it was more than they could handle.

Amanda likely cleaned up her own room to see what was taken.
Then they call police. The final call to Raf's sister is to tell her all that they did, and she figures it should be okay, so go ahead and call police. After 12:40 pm the call to the Carabineiri is placed from Raf's cell phone. At 12:46 the postal police (Battistelli) show up, right after Filomena and Luca arrived at the apartment. (the arrival of Battistelli is under dispute because he contradicts Raf and Lana the neighbor)

Amanda and Raf are acting strangely because instead of helping a dieing girl they stole some pot, and spent the night getting stoned, knowing that Meredith was dead on the floor of her bedroom.

I am thinking this way because in Europe it is extremely common for people to go out of their way not to get involved when someone is in need of help. It is a way of life. I never understood the mentality, but it is very much a deeply ingrained social and cultural thing. People fear that if they get involved they will just bring big trouble down on themselves.

And it fits better to the evidence and the times. Guede was right behinde Meredith on the camera footage, or some black man was anyway. IMO Guede arrived at the apartment within 5 to ten minutes after Meredith, she left Sophie to finish walking home just after 9pm.. She would have arrived home about 9:30. Rather than break the window to Filomena's room to get in, Guede broke the window enough that he could reach in and unlock it, then push it open and get in. They found a Y shaped indent in the bloody shoeprint that they think was made from glass being stuck to the bottom of the shoe, the shoeprint was later found to be Rudy's. They found a large rock in Filomena's bedroom. They said it was too large to have been thrown from so far below to break the window. What if though, the rock was carried up with him and used to break the window quietly, so that it could be unlocked. Filomena had a pile of clothes right under the window that would have muffled the sound of glass hitting the tile floor. They also found a blunt force injury that stretched from left to right across the back of Meredith's head.

The rock could have been the cause of the blunt force trauma to the back of her head. They unfortunately, didn't check the rock for blood. They checked it thus far to see if it was used to break the window. Well DUH! They haven't come up with a weapon for the cause to her head injury. Nor have they looked for one.

[mafitz701]

This is just coming out now???

No this has been known since 2007 when it all first happened. It just wasn't all reported in the english press. I read back through Perugia Shock and found this stuff had been a part of the earlier findings. So I searched and translated through articles in Italian for 2007 on the crime and it was reported.

There were 3 roommates downstairs, all 3 Italian boys (young men) and all three gone for the holiday. It is why Meredith had the key to their apartment, she and Silenza (one of the boys) had been dating, but had just broken up, Silenza had given her the keys to the apartment so she could take care of something (it was never said what), but I think it was the pot plants. Maybe just to water them.

[cloe23]

Lots of things to think about here.
I don't think that the renters in the bottom flat would leave a pot plant out if they had any knowledge of a plan to assault Meredith let alone her murder. They would of stashed the plants.
Was it Rudy who felt comfortable enough to go down stairs, letting him self in and out back to break the window suggesting a breaking, running into the neighbors yards where he dumped the cell phone.
IIRC from an article I read(if true) that after Rudy G had casual sex with Meredith he used the bathroom, saw two people with a knife and later explained away his bloody finger prints on the towel because he applied pressure to Meredith's neck.(to render aid.) That was his statment IIRC.
Meredith was clearly raped, bruising at 6 and 10 in the vaginal area, most likely. Suggesting forced entry not guided. The bruising around her mouth suggests someone attempting to keep Meredith's mouth open, not shut. RG didn't work alone. Who brought out the knife and who took it to such a level that they had to silence her. Either Amanda or Raffaele. My guess Raffaele's knife and Amanda inflicted the wounds(sissy stabs, not much force), even the attempts to strangle her were unsuccessful, sissy work. JMO
Being am armature, the perp that stabbed and choked Meredith was unsuccessful and her screams for help went on for long enough that the same perp couldn't take it anymore and rendered the fatal wound. Covering up Meredith and locking the bedroom door supports disassociation.
Why Amanda lied about taking a shower when she first got home to an open door, finding blood, unflushed toilet and no response from Meredith, unbelievable. This maybe from the defence side of things a good argument, Amanda was tired after hours of interrogation with LE speaking in Italian.(I sure hope she wrote her own statement opposed to LE writing their version)
The suggestion of the metallic stench that large amounts of blood pools wreak of I haven't heard mentioned by the investigators. I thought most of Meredith's blood was in her lungs, aspiration was cause of death.
It is only fair that if Harry Potter gets off on this charge with his high priced attorney then so should foxy Knoxy.
I am sick and tired of money excusing murder.
Just some theory's.

[mafitz701]

I just googled the distance between Meredith/Amanda's apartment and Raf's apartment. By foot it would take about 4 minutes at 0.4km distance.

Rudy's house was a 7 minute walk from Meredith/Amanda's apartment.

The home where Meredith visited with her friends was a 5 minute walk from her apartment.

The home where the cell phones were tossed was a 5 minute walk from Meredith and Amanda's apartment. And if you look at the twisty curvy direction from point A to point B, you know it is not a convenient toss location if running from Meredith's apartment.

It is actually an odd location from Raf's apartment and Meredith/Amanda's apartment.

Can anyone find the exact address of Patrick Lumumba's pub? Now I am curious to see if it will go past the cell phone drop location?

Known timeline factors:

Sophie and Meredith started walking towards Meredith's apartment around 9pm. According to Sophie. She has never changed her story.

Then we have this:
"from the computer expertise a new human interaction was found on his notebook. The help Amelie couldn't give comes by surprise from a Manga cartoon: Naruto. That night Raffaele, after having downloaded a Naruto cartoon, has opened it and then closed at 9.46 pm."

So this puts Raf at his computer at 9:46pm. 4 minute walk away.

Then this:
"Meredith's english cellphone at 10.13 pm detected the presence of the mobile phone in the garden where it will be found the day after."

"The call was the one made to the bank. A call that couldn't be successful because dialed the way the number was memorized, without the +44 code of England."

Sophie walked her halfway there.

On the CCTV a black man is seen walking about 10' behinde what is believed to be Meredith. It was documented at 8:31pm. It is assumed to be Rudy and Meredith.

Given that it would take Meredith 5 minutes to walk home from Sophie's place, and taking into account the two girls would probably talk for a little bit more at the halfway point before parting, we can say that Meredith arrived home at just before 9pm.

So:
8:31pm Nov 1, Meredith is seen walking home via the CCTV from the garage

9:46pm Nov 1, Raf downloads a Naruto cartoon and then logs off.

10:13pm Nov 1, A call is placed from one of the cell phones in the vicinity of the garden where it is later found. The call is to Meredith's bank.

10:18pm. Nov. 1, SMS texting between Patrick and Amanda, first don't come to work there is not enough people, then, okay see you, then okay see you later.


I only listed technical knowns because people get times wrong. Cameras, computers, and cell phones? Not as likely.

The andrea address where the cell phones were dropped is RIGHT behinde or in front of Rudy's house. If you walk it is a straight shot up a hill across a road and you are right there.

Look:
Between Rudy's house and the house where the cell phones were dropped.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=andrea+da+perugia+5b,+26,+06123+Perugia,+Perugia +(Umbria),+Italy&sll=43.117839,12.387664&sspn=0.006625,0.019913&ie=UTF8&ll=43.119421,12.387772&spn=0.006625,0.019913&t=h&z=16&iwloc=cent&om=1

Between Meredith's house and the cell phone drop location:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=andrea+da+perugia+5b,+26,+06123+Perugia,+Perugia +(Umbria),+Italy&sll=43.117839,12.387664&sspn=0.006625,0.019913&ie=UTF8&ll=43.119421,12.387772&spn=0.006625,0.019913&t=h&z=16&iwloc=cent&om=1

Between Raf's house and the cell phone drop location:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=andrea+da+perugia+5b,+26,+06123+Perugia,+Perugia +(Umbria),+Italy&sll=43.117839,12.387664&sspn=0.006625,0.019913&ie=UTF8&ll=43.119421,12.387772&spn=0.006625,0.019913&t=h&z=16&iwloc=cent&om=1

Between Raf's house and Meredith's House:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Garibaldi+112,+06122+Perugia,+Perugia+(Umbria),+ Italy&sll=43.115959,12.390561&sspn=0.006626,0.019913&ie=UTF8&ll=43.117713,12.390003&spn=0.006625,0.019913&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1

Between Meredith's house and Rudy's house:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Canerino+26,+06122+Perugia,+Perugia+(Umbria),+It aly&sll=43.117713,12.390003&sspn=0.006625,0.019913&ie=UTF8&ll=43.118434,12.389188&spn=0.006625,0.019913&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1

I am still not convinced Lumumba was not near the location because his own cell phone puts him near there. Amanda could have mentioned to him the prior Thursday when she was working that Silenza and his roommies would be out of town and they had pot plants. Homegrown pot especially if it is dried properly (ie sundried), is the absolute best pot around, and goes for a high dollar amount because it is considered high quality. And Amanda could have mentioned the fact that they were down there.

Rudy knew both Silenza and Lumumba. Rudy emmigrated from the Ivory Coast as a child, Lumumba came from the Congo as an adult. Would their native ties have given them reason to talk more? More than the "I don't know him well, just see him around" claim that Lumumba stated? Very similar situations in both areas.

Amanda never even mentioned Rudy during her interrogations, she only named Lumumba. (Typical for a white person to come up with the name of a black man) If she had known Rudy, and had to choose between implicating the owner of a club who just happened to be black or a black drug using/dealing, thief, who would she have chosen?

Another thing that is bothering me is the fact that Frank Sfarzo said on his blog that the black man in the CCTV camera does not walk or look much like Rudy Guede. The white female in this camera was first reported by media to be Amanda. But it got ruled out because Amanda is 5'3 and this woman was taller.

If Rudy's practise of breaking into a place was to scale a wall and climb in through a window, crime of opportunity, apartment is empty, grab a rock climb to the window, break out just enough glass to unlock the window. Look for keys? How would Rudy know that Meredith had keys to the downstairs apartment? Rob the place? Women take their purses when they leave somewhere, but it was a bad neighborhood, the basketball court and the parking garage right across the street were hangouts for heroine users and dealers.

Instead of risking a purse snatching while having to go through the bad areas she would leave it at the apartment.

But it still leaves out the fact that the apartment downstairs had been gone through, Meredith's blood was found on a light fixture in that apartment, but nothing was found to be taken. To me most notable is the pot plants were not taken. If you look at the news video of the cottage you can see that the downstairs apartment is well away from the view of the street, unlike Meredith's apartment which faced the street.

[mafitz701]

Lots of things to think about here.
I don't think that the renters in the bottom flat would leave a pot plant out if they had any knowledge of a plan to assault Meredith let alone her murder. They would of stashed the plants.
Was it Rudy who felt comfortable enough to go down stairs, letting him self in and out back to break the window suggesting a breaking, running into the neighbors yards where he dumped the cell phone.
IIRC from an article I read(if true) that after Rudy G had casual sex with Meredith he used the bathroom, saw two people with a knife and later explained away his bloody finger prints on the towel because he applied pressure to Meredith's neck.(to render aid.) That was his statment IIRC.
Meredith was clearly raped, bruising at 6 and 10 in the vaginal area, most likely. Suggesting forced entry not guided. The bruising around her mouth suggests someone attempting to keep Meredith's mouth open, not shut. RG didn't work alone. Who brought out the knife and who took it to such a level that they had to silence her. Either Amanda or Raffaele. My guess Raffaele's knife and Amanda inflicted the wounds(sissy stabs, not much force), even the attempts to strangle her were unsuccessful, sissy work. JMO
Being am armature, the perp that stabbed and choked Meredith was unsuccessful and her screams for help went on for long enough that the same perp couldn't take it anymore and rendered the fatal wound. Covering up Meredith and locking the bedroom door supports disassociation.
Why Amanda lied about taking a shower when she first got home to an open door, finding blood, unflushed toilet and no response from Meredith, unbelievable. This maybe from the defence side of things a good argument, Amanda was tired after hours of interrogation with LE speaking in Italian.(I sure hope she wrote her own statement opposed to LE writing their version)
The suggestion of the metallic stench that large amounts of blood pools wreak of I haven't heard mentioned by the investigators. I thought most of Meredith's blood was in her lungs, aspiration was cause of death.
It is only fair that if Harry Potter gets off on this charge with his high priced attorney then so should foxy Knoxy.
I am sick and tired of money excusing murder.
Just some theory's.

Ok first the only reason the media called it a choking "strangling" was because Meredith's hyoid bone was fractured. They assumed she had been stabbed and choked as a result of this.

But if she were stabbed deep enough to bleed into her trachea (cause of death) then the hyoid bone very well could be fractured from the very same stab.

To get an idea of what she went through, have you ever been drinking or eating something and had it go into your airway? Then you are coughing and fighting to clear it so you can breathe. That is what she was going through, except on a far worse level. No way she could have screamed.

They found Rudy's fingerprints on the wall, there is a picture of them on the Perugia Shock blog under 2007 blogs. The second print from Rudy was a bloody palm print left on the pillow right under Meredith's head.

Think about it. Rudy is a street hood, had he known about the apartment downstairs being empty for the holiday and having pot plants, why not go there instead? Or being a thief, even if he had seen it empty, had he known it contained pot, why not rob that one instead? Why choose Meredith's apartment?

Yeah on Amanda EXCEPT that that same story is exactly what she told police right after they got there! Before the interrogation. So why would she claim that? She had to be lieing through her teeth.

This case has so many twists and turns its crazy. But for sure, LE and LE alone are the reason we will not get to see justice for Meredith. Only Rudy had strong evidence against him. They totally tossed any chance of building a case that would stand against Raf and Amanda, or possibly another perpetrator.

Who doesn't take fingernail scrapings off of a murder victim? Or just plain old fingerprinting of a broken window or cell phones?

And Raf actually did call his sister not once but THREE times before calling the police. Three TIMES. Why?

[mafitz701]

oh one more thing, I forgot, the inside of her mouth had abrasions like her lips had been pressed so hard against her teeth that they were scraped.

I wonder if they checked the rock for hair from Meredith's head? Why didn't they at least theorize what was used to cause the head lesion?

[mafitz701]

oh and part of the cause of my going off on these longwinded tangents on this case.

It turns out that there is a young Italian woman, who was a student at the same university who has just gone missing out of Perugia. It happened before Meredith's murder. No trace of her.

And part of me wonders if the two cases might be linked.

I will find the news story on her and post when I find it.

[cloe23]

oh one more thing, I forgot, the inside of her mouth had abrasions like her lips had been pressed so hard against her teeth that they were scraped.

I wonder if they checked the rock for hair from Meredith's head? Why didn't they at least theorize what was used to cause the head lesion?

Didn't investigators find evidence of Meredith's face being pressed, held into a pillow?
This is the first I have heard of a head wound to Meredith?
It looks like there were many unsuccessful attempts to kill her and the poor thing finally drowned in her own blood.
Just sickening.

[cloe23]

Ok first the only reason the media called it a choking "strangling" was because Meredith's hyoid bone was fractured. They assumed she had been stabbed and choked as a result of this.

But if she were stabbed deep enough to bleed into her trachea (cause of death) then the hyoid bone very well could be fractured from the very same stab.

To get an idea of what she went through, have you ever been drinking or eating something and had it go into your airway? Then you are coughing and fighting to clear it so you can breathe. That is what she was going through, except on a far worse level. No way she could have screamed.

They found Rudy's fingerprints on the wall, there is a picture of them on the Perugia Shock blog under 2007 blogs. The second print from Rudy was a bloody palm print left on the pillow right under Meredith's head.

Think about it. Rudy is a street hood, had he known about the apartment downstairs being empty for the holiday and having pot plants, why not go there instead? Or being a thief, even if he had seen it empty, had he known it contained pot, why not rob that one instead? Why choose Meredith's apartment?

Yeah on Amanda EXCEPT that that same story is exactly what she told police right after they got there! Before the interrogation. So why would she claim that? She had to be lieing through her teeth.

This case has so many twists and turns its crazy. But for sure, LE and LE alone are the reason we will not get to see justice for Meredith. Only Rudy had strong evidence against him. They totally tossed any chance of building a case that would stand against Raf and Amanda, or possibly another perpetrator.

Who doesn't take fingernail scrapings off of a murder victim? Or just plain old fingerprinting of a broken window or cell phones?

And Raf actually did call his sister not once but THREE times before calling the police. Three TIMES. Why?

Who is Raffaels sister? If you know please share.
So LE's interview with Amanda where she says she covered her ears to block out Meredith's screams may have been during the assault?
If the hyoid bone was broken due to a stab then there was more forced used then I thought. If this ME is as lazy/unqualified as it appears, did he note no bruising around Meredith's neck to rule out attempted strangulation? Do you remember Raffaele sending 9 roses to Amanda on her 21st birthday, one for each month they had been locked up? The note saying justice will be served?(paraphrasing)
Do you remember Raffaele stating that he would never be in jail if he hadn't met Amanda, blaming her?
:confused:

[Aradia5]

Thank you mafitz701 for all the great info!

[Aradia5]

Thursday, February 12, 2009
Italian prosecutor in Amanda Knox trial targets West Seattle newspaper

By Seattle Times staff

The Italian prosecutor in the Amanda Knox trial has told the British Broadcasting Corp. that he is bringing a defamation lawsuit against a West Seattle community newspaper for its coverage of unflattering comments about him made by Knox's supporters.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008736870_webknox12m.html

[mafitz701]

Didn't investigators find evidence of Meredith's face being pressed, held into a pillow?
This is the first I have heard of a head wound to Meredith?
It looks like there were many unsuccessful attempts to kill her and the poor thing finally drowned in her own blood.
Just sickening.


Yes Cloe go back to my links on the injuries listed, there is a diagram that shows where the bruises and head injury were found. Prosecutor's accept that she was knocked over the head, to control her, but they never came up with the weapon, and even though for me the rock would be an obvious choice, they never checked the rock.

SlickLime, she still lied about taking the shower, even if my latest theory holds true, Amanda would still have wanted to erase any evidence that Raf was in the apartment the night of the murder. I don't know what the charges would be to know someone was injured and dieing or had died and not call police in Italy. In the US its a felony and could still be accessory after the fact if you tamper with the crime scene so it would actually be at least two felonies.

But if LE could at least come up with a more plausible theory that fit all of the evidence, even the evidence they dropped the ball on, they would at least have a better chance of getting a 15 year sentence on each of them without having it overturned.

[mafitz701]

Didn't investigators find evidence of Meredith's face being pressed, held into a pillow?
This is the first I have heard of a head wound to Meredith?
It looks like there were many unsuccessful attempts to kill her and the poor thing finally drowned in her own blood.
Just sickening.


One more thing, the theory of suffocation I think was a media driven theory, not an LE one. Even going back to the 2007 Judge's report, and the UCsomethingV report put out by the forensic "expertys" nothing about suffocation.

Go back and read the two reports. They said the bruises and small lesions to her mouth were consistent with a hand being pressed forcefully across her mouth.

The report I forget now the full abbreviation for it, but it stood for. I think UCAV?

[mafitz701]

Raf's sister is a policewoman for the Carabineiri!

Aradia thanks for posting the link on the lawsuit. Actually that would be ideal for him to bring a suit in a US court, I love civil suits because they force out so much more information!

Mignini was involved in the "Monster of Florence" case. I really never knew anything about the case except for a show I watched on AandE about it. So I don't know what it was Mig was supposed to have done or not done on that case.

No Cloe I never read about the Raf sending roses to Amanda. That would be kind of sweet in a way, or very sarcastic.

I looked this morning for LeChic the bar that Lumumba was working at, and found what I think is it, but I don't have Lumumba's home address to cross reference a travel path from. I did find that from the Andrea street address (cell phone drop) it was a 10 minute DRIVE from there. So I am thinking it is probably not the right bar.

And just for those who didn't know you could do this. To search through Italy's news and web sites all you have to do is type google.it on your address bar. Then keep your translator open in another page.

It was how I found the video footage of the crime scene footage that Tele Norba aired.

I am hopeful someone else will be more skilled with net searches and locate the LeChic bar. Because I can't find it.

[mafitz701]

Okay please add to these because I can't remember all of them anyway:

1 - Amanda by her own words took a shower in the bloody bathroom. Go back and look at the crime scene photo of that bathroom. Would you or your 20 year old daughter take a shower in that bathroom? UH NO!

2 - Neither one of the knives LE called the murder weapon fit the bloody knife impression left on Meredith's bed sheet.

3 - Meredith's keys are missing.

4 - The cell phones were found in a garden that is nowhere near to convenient for a drop location from the cottage. Closest to Rudy but not even convenient if you look at the sattelite image.

5 - Stefano is Meredith's ex-boyfriend. They just broke up. Why was his room the only one tampered with?

6 - The pot plants in the downstairs apartment were not stolen.

7 - Amanda's room was not tampered with. (If it was would she not have noticed it)

8 - Lumumba's cell phone placed a call that was routed through a tower closest to the crime scene. What time was the call placed?

9 - Raf's sister called his sister 3 times prior to calling police. It was a cell to cell call. What time did these calls get logged?

I know I am forgetting a lot of stuff. I am very frustrated with this case. You know its bad when you can honestly say you have seen better policework out of Mexico. Italy is a developed country, they are also an advanced country in many aspects, especially in their scientific progressiveness. So why such shoddy police work? Why can't a forensics and investigative team from Rome take over the case? Similar to when our own local LE bring in the FBI or the state police?

[cloe23]

I wasn't successful in finding address of the Le Chic bar ran and or owned by Lumumbar nor his home address. Was his pub on or near Town Centeral maybe Andrea Street?
His back ground/blood line/ connections appear to be something not to be ignored.
'Diya' Patrick Lumumba hopefully is and should still be considered a suspect. I read that he was released from jail after 14 days, anyway to track if he was bought out?(bond)
:ohmy:

[Jester]

From Perugia Shock:
<snipped for space>

Amanda sent out an email for people like us to read. I don't know where she sent it, but it is on the latest blog by Perugia Shock:

That looks like something written by some who knows English as a second language, not someone who studies language.

[mafitz701]

Only because the original she wrote in Italian and it was translated from Italian to English. She also had a phone call with her parents that was all in Italian. I don't understand it at all, but to each his own.