2/1-

[bkwits]

:confused:

Good morning everyone.. Gee, I can't leave you alone for a few hours. But today will be better. It's Sunday and we will behave ourselves.

:wub:

[PensiveOne]

:confused:

Good morning everyone.. Gee, I can't leave you alone for a few hours. But today will be better. It's Sunday and we will behave ourselves.

:wub:

Good morning bkwits. I promise to behave as well. Big day for Arizona with the Super Bowl. I don't expect any more news on this case today.

[denisel]

not to rehash something, but if TR took the donuts back to work, the police ought to be able to question workers if she was there and there would be donuts at work the next day. Did anyone know if police asked her coworkers? Good thing she kept receipts.

[denisel]

Does anyone know if all those filings on 1-29 from the court are available to view yet?

[GentleBreeze]

Does anyone know if all those filings on 1-29 from the court are available to view yet?

No filings since the discovery supplemental on 1/27.

imoo

[bkwits]

Does anyone know if all those filings on 1-29 from the court are available to view yet?

Did you check on the ChildsVoice Myspace page. The link is in the links section. But I don't believe the findings have been posted. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Good morning denisel and welcome.

IMO I think Tiffany's alibi checked out just fine.

Good Morning!

I agree. I don't think it would be difficult to do at all.

imoo

[denisel]

What does IMO mean?

[bkwits]

not to rehash something, but if TR took the donuts back to work, the police ought to be able to question workers if she was there and there would be donuts at work the next day. Did anyone know if police asked her coworkers? Good thing she kept receipts.

I saw a post on a blog a long time ago from a co worker. I believe she said Tiff brought the donuts back, but not sure. Does anyone remember where that blog is (if it is still up)?

[Hawk]

I saw a post on a blog a long time ago from a co worker. I believe she said Tiff brought the donuts back, but not sure. Does anyone remember where that blog is (if it is still up)?



It's in Detective Neckel's second testimony while being questioned by Mr. Brewer.

[GentleBreeze]

So what does everyone think is going to happen in the hearing, Thursday?

imo

[Hawk]

not to rehash something, but if TR took the donuts back to work, the police ought to be able to question workers if she was there and there would be donuts at work the next day. Did anyone know if police asked her coworkers? Good thing she kept receipts.

Don't be shy about rehashing, please. We've covered the same bases a hundred times on this board, but sometimes something new comes up, evidence, idea, or scenario to spark a new discussion. I imagine there are many more rocks to look under and angles to be considered. Seems like every time a small piece to the puzzle is revealed the theories are adjusted accordingly.
It's seldom boring. To me anyway.
Happy hunting.

[Hawk]

So what does everyone think is going to happen in the hearing, Thursday?

imo

It'll have to be more than has happened in the previous ones. I'm still hoping for more evidence disclosure.
Is a ruling on the Motion to Dismiss likely?
How about Mr. Brewers Motion to Suppress?

[denisel]

Do you feel judges often use every tool they can, delaying, etc., so they do not have to rule, they do not have to be controversial, having attorneys ask a higher court for an opinion, and ultimately hoping a case settles? It would be a cautious move to do nothing, by having the boy in treatment for the 245 days and see what happens, see if they settle?

IMO

[Pag Boi]

not to rehash something, but if TR took the donuts back to work, the police ought to be able to question workers if she was there and there would be donuts at work the next day. Did anyone know if police asked her coworkers? Good thing she kept receipts.

When the child confessed, there was no need to get the coworkers stmts since SJPD called off all investigators ASAP

DN says she went to Tif's house on Thursday to get some things straight in her head that didn't make sense to her. That is when Tif offered up the s'ghetti.

I have many problems with the Tif went to the store 2x tale that DN has given.

DN only has a video of the video of Tif's 1st purchase. When did she go to Wilbur's to get it? By the time the child was arrested, LE knew that Tif went at least once. That the victims coworkers were there after 5pm.

IF the video could be rewound to watch Tif's 1st purchase, they had to pass the 2nd purchase. Why wasn't the video taken as evidence? I don't believe for one second that the store employee could show her Tif's old purchase but couldn't eject it.

Had Wilbur's been robbed or accusing an employee of stealing, they would have a video to LE ASAP.

DN secured a tape of the SRP employees leaving. DN secured a tape of the coerced confession. DN couldn't call someone to get the tape of Wilbur's out of the video?

What did Tif buy that rotted? Why take rotten, smelly food from her Jeep into her dirty kitchen?

There is a reason why the Wilbur's video is not in evidence. It didn't fit the crime or the time line JMOO

[Hawk]

When the child confessed, there was no need to get the coworkers stmts since SJPD called off all investigators ASAP

DN says she went to Tif's house on Thursday to get some things straight in her head that didn't make sense to her. That is when Tif offered up the s'ghetti.

I have many problems with the Tif went to the store 2x tale that DN has given.

DN only has a video of the video of Tif's 1st purchase. When did she go to Wilbur's to get it? By the time the child was arrested, LE knew that Tif went at least once. That the victims coworkers were there after 5pm.

IF the video could be rewound to watch Tif's 1st purchase, they had to pass the 2nd purchase. Why wasn't the video taken as evidence? I don't believe for one second that the store employee could show her Tif's old purchase but couldn't eject it.

Had Wilbur's been robbed or accusing an employee of stealing, they would have a video to LE ASAP.

DN secured a tape of the SRP employees leaving. DN secured a tape of the coerced confession. DN couldn't call someone to get the tape of Wilbur's out of the video?

What did Tif buy that rotted? Why take rotten, smelly food from her Jeep into her dirty kitchen?

There is a reason why the Wilbur's video is not in evidence. It didn't fit the crime or the time line JMOO

Hambuger meat.

[GentleBreeze]

It'll have to be more than has happened in the previous ones. I'm still hoping for more evidence disclosure.
Is a ruling on the Motion to Dismiss likely?
How about Mr. Brewers Motion to Suppress?

Who really knows, Hawk, but I think time is of the essence now where he has to rule one way or the other. I do believe JR has reconsidered, after getting the appellate ruling and is going to do so before competency is decided.

However that is just trying to read tealeaves. He may let the hearing go forward and tell them he will rule later but it seems odd if that were true he would set up the hearing before the competency date.

I do know he can rule whichever way he thinks is best for all parties concerned. I do think he will weigh all of his options carefully. A lot is at stake here. Not only the boy's age but two murder victims.

I am in agreement with Linda. He may decide to give the 240 days and then have him assessed again.

While we heard from one media outlet only that the prosecution expert agreed with the defense expert, we have heard that from no other media. While they may agree to incompetency the state expert may think he can be restored in 240 days.

imo

[muska]

When the child confessed, there was no need to get the coworkers stmts since SJPD called off all investigators ASAP

DN says she went to Tif's house on Thursday to get some things straight in her head that didn't make sense to her. That is when Tif offered up the s'ghetti.

I have many problems with the Tif went to the store 2x tale that DN has given.

DN only has a video of the video of Tif's 1st purchase. When did she go to Wilbur's to get it? By the time the child was arrested, LE knew that Tif went at least once. That the victims coworkers were there after 5pm.

IF the video could be rewound to watch Tif's 1st purchase, they had to pass the 2nd purchase. Why wasn't the video taken as evidence? I don't believe for one second that the store employee could show her Tif's old purchase but couldn't eject it.

Had Wilbur's been robbed or accusing an employee of stealing, they would have a video to LE ASAP.

DN secured a tape of the SRP employees leaving. DN secured a tape of the coerced confession. DN couldn't call someone to get the tape of Wilbur's out of the video?

What did Tif buy that rotted? Why take rotten, smelly food from her Jeep into her dirty kitchen?

There is a reason why the Wilbur's video is not in evidence. It didn't fit the crime or the time line JMOO

Supposedly the second trip was erased by the time the police knew there was a second trip and went looking for it, but you're right....wouldn't they have had to go past that second trip to get the video of the first trip. That is another reason to doubt whether there was a second trip......the receipt could be from anyone.

[GentleBreeze]

Supposedly the second trip was erased by the time the police knew there was a second trip and went looking for it, but you're right....wouldn't they have had to go past that second trip to get the video of the first trip. That is another reason to doubt whether there was a second trip......the receipt could be from anyone.

I would think in a small store like this that the cashiers may even know her and remembered her coming back in.

imoo

[Hawk]

Who really knows, Hawk, but I think time is of the essence now where he has to rule one way or the other. I do believe JR has reconsidered, after getting the appellate ruling and is going to do so before competency is decided.

However that is just trying to read tealeaves. He may let the hearing go forward and tell them he will rule later but it seems odd if that were true he would set up the hearing before the competency date.

I do know he can rule whichever way he thinks is best for all parties concerned. I do think he will weigh all of his options carefully. A lot is at stake here. Not only the boy's age but two murder victims.

I am in agreement with Linda. He may decide to give the 240 days and then have him assessed again.

While we heard from one media outlet only that the prosecution expert agreed with the defense expert, we have heard that from no other media. While they may agree to incompetency the state expert may think he can be restored in 240 days.

imo

Where would the boy be for the 8 months? Seems improbable to me that he'll know anymore about 'assisting his defence' in 240 days than he does now. It would also be easy for him to trick the 'experts' with a little coaching and education.
A smart person can play dumb much easier than a dumb person can play smart. But that's the law I guess.

[Pag Boi]

The neighbors that allegedly heard sounds


11/7 - DN tells BB that she interviewed the Jaramillos and recorded their statement. They heard.....


- BB asks DN what words that Jaramillos used to describe the noise. Who brought up the shots/pop and what verbiage was used? DN says she recorded the interview and asked them for a written stmt. DN says she hasn't had time to review the tape so she cannot say whether she brought it up or they did.



11/19 - BB asks DN about her case notes. If she has different recollections at different points in time, which notes would be the most reliable. DN says her first notes

- BB asks DN about the Jaramillos statement and how the pop/shot sounds came up. DN tells BB that her Chief interviewed the Jaramillos. The Chief used the pop.....pause....pop.......to describe the witness stmt to her.


We have no idea what the witness actually heard. We have no idea what the witness told LE. LE can't even keep their story straight about how the neighbor came to be an ear witness.

Much like the only other ear witness, Tanya. This is the worst investigation ever released to the public. All JMOO

[GentleBreeze]

Where would the boy be for the 8 months? Seems improbable to me that he'll know anymore about 'assisting his defence' in 240 days than he does now. It would also be easy for him to trick the 'experts' with a little coaching and education.
A smart person can play dumb much easier than a dumb person can play smart. But that's the law I guess.

I really don't know. Maybe out but under the direction and rule of the court. Directed to receive extensive mental therapy.

If he cuts him loose then JR has no legal authority over this kid, anymore.

imoo

[Hawk]

She did have a receipt, she was seen on video, she did run into and talk with EMT's, she did go to buy her husband stuff, she did buy donuts.

IMO Tiffany's alibi is rock solid and backed up by physical evidence and witnesses.

I agree. She was scrutinized by the cops and the public more than any other person, besides the defendant, I believe.

She simply wasn't at the scene.

[denisel]

When the child confessed, there was no need to get the coworkers stmts since SJPD called off all investigators ASAP

DN says she went to Tif's house on Thursday to get some things straight in her head that didn't make sense to her. That is when Tif offered up the s'ghetti.

I have many problems with the Tif went to the store 2x tale that DN has given.

DN only has a video of the video of Tif's 1st purchase. When did she go to Wilbur's to get it? By the time the child was arrested, LE knew that Tif went at least once. That the victims coworkers were there after 5pm.

IF the video could be rewound to watch Tif's 1st purchase, they had to pass the 2nd purchase. Why wasn't the video taken as evidence? I don't believe for one second that the store employee could show her Tif's old purchase but couldn't eject it.

Had Wilbur's been robbed or accusing an employee of stealing, they would have a video to LE ASAP.

DN secured a tape of the SRP employees leaving. DN secured a tape of the coerced confession. DN couldn't call someone to get the tape of Wilbur's out of the video?

What did Tif buy that rotted? Why take rotten, smelly food from her Jeep into her dirty kitchen?

There is a reason why the Wilbur's video is not in evidence. It didn't fit the crime or the time line JMOO

Respectfully speaking, your arguments don't make sense to me. She had the receipts. Why would she buy rotten meat? I assume she couldnt get into her house, thus the meat rotted in her vehicle. She probably didnt even go to her vehicle because of the media. Didn't someone post she was at her grandmothers house to avoid the media?I wouldnt drive around with all the press. And I always forget things and have to go back to the store sometimes even three times. From what I read on posts, she went back to the store from her work, not from home. What do you base that this on that doesn't fit the timeline? Why would the store keep the tapes after several days? Do you really believe Wilbur's employees are covering up a crime? Wouldn't they go to jail for that? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't know what evidence you have to reach those conclusions? If she did it from the timeline you suggest she would have had to guess that the boy was walking around the block an hour and a half, get a white car, kill the men, go back to work and go back to Wilburs in one minute and then convince a Wilburs employee to help out. However, from what I read on the posts the boy had an hour and half window to commit the crime. I'm not accusing anyone but your post makes no sense.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

The neighbors that allegedly heard sounds


11/7 - DN tells BB that she interviewed the Jaramillos and recorded their statement. They heard.....


- BB asks DN what words that Jaramillos used to describe the noise. Who brought up the shots/pop and what verbiage was used? DN says she recorded the interview and asked them for a written stmt. DN says she hasn't had time to review the tape so she cannot say whether she brought it up or they did.



11/19 - BB asks DN about her case notes. If she has different recollections at different points in time, which notes would be the most reliable. DN says her first notes

- BB asks DN about the Jaramillos statement and how the pop/shot sounds came up. DN tells BB that her Chief interviewed the Jaramillos. The Chief used the pop.....pause....pop.......to describe the witness stmt to her.


We have no idea what the witness actually heard. We have no idea what the witness told LE. LE can't even keep their story straight about how the neighbor came to be an ear witness.

Much like the only other ear witness, Tanya. This is the worst investigation ever released to the public. All JMOO

Of course, they do. I am sure the Jaramillos are still there and very able to tell what they heard, when and how they sounded.

imo

[Pag Boi]

She did have a receipt, she was seen on video, she did run into and talk with EMT's, she did go to buy her husband stuff, she did buy donuts.

IMO Tiffany's alibi is rock solid and backed up by physical evidence and witnesses.


Then why didn't DN get the video? If you READ her testimony, her 3 days wasn't 3 days. She knew that the coworkers had been there. Why didn't she retain the video?


Where are the receipts? Where are the EMTs statements? Coworkers?

As has been repeated many times, only took a few minutes for someone to fire 10 shots. Tif had a pea shooter according to her husband's coworker

How do we know that Tanya was at work 170 miles away? Per Tanya, Tim was the family's "sole supporter."


Where was Grandpa? Amos? Larry? Dana? Candy? Misty? Tim Neckles? After all DN wanted everyone in the neighborhood's statement and whereabouts.

[GentleBreeze]

I have to go, company coming in an hour for the stupid football game party:thumbdown:

Well, at least I know the food will be good and I do enjoy the commercials:tongueside:

Have a great day!

I'll be back later to discuss ear witness!

Enjoy! I am pulling for Arizona.

imoo

[Pag Boi]

Of course, they do. I am sure the Jaramillos are still there and very able to tell what they heard, when and how they sounded.

imo

Awwwwhhhh.

Should we believe DN on 11/7 or on 11/19?

[denisel]

I have to go, company coming in an hour for the stupid football game party:thumbdown:

Well, atleast I know the food will be good and I do enjoy the commercials:tongueside:

Have a great day!

I'll be back later to discuss ear witness!

Enjoy. I'm rooting for Pittsburgh!

[Hawk]

After Nellie, the boxer pup was placed into Mrs. Romero's jeep the day of the murders I wonder why Nellie didn't get into the hamburger meat?

[GentleBreeze]

Awwwwhhhh.

Should we believe DN on 11/7 or on 11/19?

Neither, the actual witnesses are very capable of telling what they heard.

imo

[denisel]

I think someone post the boy and the boxer were at the grandmas.

[bkwits]

After Nellie, the boxer pup was placed into Mrs. Romero's jeep the day of the murders I wonder why Nellie didn't get into the hamburger meat?

Great point. :thumbup:

[GentleBreeze]

I think someone post the boy and the boxer were at the grandmas.

Who posted that and where?

thanks.

imoo

[denisel]

I think someone post the boy and the boxer were at the grandmas.

IMO I don't think you leave a boxer in your car for a couple of days.

[bkwits]

I think someone post the boy and the boxer were at the grandmas.

No, Tiffany put Nellie in her Jeep.

[Hawk]

IMO I don't think you leave a boxer in your car for a couple of days.

Not indefinitely. I mean initially when Mrs. Romero put the puppy in her Jeep when she first arrived at the residence.
My dogs would have eaten the meat, the wrapper and the bag it was in.

[GentleBreeze]

IMO I don't think you leave a boxer in your car for a couple of days.

I sure don't think so and surely the hamburger meat was tightly wrapped. We aren't talking about a bloodhound here but a boxer puppy.

She may have placed her where she couldn't get to the food.

imoo

[denisel]

No, Tiffany put Nellie in her Jeep.

Would she leave the dog in her jeep a couple of days without letting it go to the bathroom? IMO

[bkwits]

IMO I don't think you leave a boxer in your car for a couple of days.

The meat was there from the store that Tiffany had just come from. She put Nelly in the Jeep with the meat when she got to the house and found our her husband and Tim had been murdered. Nelly was prob in the Jeep for quite awhile. Tiff and the child went to a neighbors and were interviewed by Avila. Later the child was taken to his grandma's. I think (but am not sure) that the dog stayed with Tiffany.

IMO

[denisel]

The meat was there from the store that Tiffany had just come from. She put Nelly in the Jeep with the meat when she got to the house and found our her husband and Tim had been murdered. Nelly was prob in the Jeep for quite awhile. Tiff and the child went to a neighbors and were interviewed by Avila. Later the child was taken to his grandma's. I think (but am not sure) that the dog stayed with Tiffany.

IMO

What theory do you have for smelly HB meat?

IMO

[Pag Boi]

Respectfully speaking, your arguments don't make sense to me. She had the receipts. Why would she buy rotten meat? I assume she couldnt get into her house, thus the meat rotted in her vehicle. She probably didnt even go to her vehicle because of the media. Didn't someone post she was at her grandmothers house to avoid the media?I wouldnt drive around with all the press. And I always forget things and have to go back to the store sometimes even three times. From what I read on posts, she went back to the store from her work, not from home. What do you base that this on that doesn't fit the timeline? Why would the store keep the tapes after several days? Do you really believe Wilbur's employees are covering up a crime? Wouldn't they go to jail for that? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't know what evidence you have to reach those conclusions? If she did it from the timeline you suggest she would have had to guess that the boy was walking around the block an hour and a half, get a white car, kill the men, go back to work and go back to Wilburs in one minute and then convince a Wilburs employee to help out. However, from what I read on the posts the boy had an hour and half window to commit the crime. I'm not accusing anyone but your post makes no sense.

IMO





Excuse me. I am sorry you can't follow the testimony of LE. BB did and it doesn't match up from one account to the next. And DN is the co-officer in charge. If she can't keep up with her own case, why should you?



Why weren't the receipts turned over to defense by 11/19? I have never read that they actually have a receipt for the milk & donuts purchase, does it exist?




DN went to the house to see Tif on her own that Thursday. Tif whined about the dirty kitchen and the spoiled food per DN. NO ONE has said Tif bought any meat that could have possibly rotted.

Tif tells DN that her car was getting smelly. She found her s'ghetti dinner, whatever it was, that she bought at Wilbur's. Oh Tif says and I bet the receipt for that.


Who brings "spoiled" food from outside to the inside?

There is no legitimate reason for DN not taking the Wilbur's video into evidence. DN went to retrieve the video for the 1st purchase at some point AFTER the child was arrested. That means had she gotten the tape, both purchases would have been on the tape.

Where was Tif's dad when he called VR at 4:45? What did the Kirks get at the store? There is NO evidence Tif made a 2nd purchase. What was it exactly that rotted? Why didn't the Kirks see her with a bag of food in her hand?


1.5 hours? How so? The boy never gave LE a time he came home. He gave LE some account of his actions. It was LE that placed the time upon him and couldn't be bothered to verify it before the 11/7 hearing. They had no idea if their time line was correct per DN's own testimony.

Respectfully speaking of course.

[bkwits]

What theory do you have for smelly HB meat?

IMO

:wink: Well, I hadn't really thought about it until Hawk mentioned it. I just don't know about the whole Tiffany scenario. I don't understand why she didn't come home and pick up the child. After all, the distances are in minutes between work, home, etc.

[GentleBreeze]

Respectfully speaking, your arguments don't make sense to me. She had the receipts. Why would she buy rotten meat? I assume she couldn't get into her house, thus the meat rotted in her vehicle. She probably didn't even go to her vehicle because of the media. Didn't someone post she was at her grandmothers house to avoid the media?I wouldn't drive around with all the press. And I always forget things and have to go back to the store sometimes even three times. From what I read on posts, she went back to the store from her work, not from home. What do you base that this on that doesn't fit the timeline? Why would the store keep the tapes after several days? Do you really believe Wilbur's employees are covering up a crime? Wouldn't they go to jail for that? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't know what evidence you have to reach those conclusions? If she did it from the timeline you suggest she would have had to guess that the boy was walking around the block an hour and a half, get a white car, kill the men, go back to work and go back to Wilburs in one minute and then convince a Wilburs employee to help out. However, from what I read on the posts the boy had an hour and half window to commit the crime. I'm not accusing anyone but your post makes no sense.

IMO

I agree. Now if she didn't have spoiled hamburger meat that would be one thing but she did, which makes logical sense she went back to the store to buy the meat for her spaghetti dinner that day.

imo

[Pag Boi]

Respectfully speaking, your arguments don't make sense to me. She had the receipts. Why would she buy rotten meat? I assume she couldnt get into her house, thus the meat rotted in her vehicle. She probably didnt even go to her vehicle because of the media. Didn't someone post she was at her grandmothers house to avoid the media?I wouldnt drive around with all the press.

snipped for length

IMO

WTH? Tif was at her grandma's when C was at his. Less than 18 hours after the crime. LE didn't alert the press for another 2 or 3 hours. So your post makes no sense.

Tif tells DN that she got in her car & there was spoiled food. Tif then points out the spoiled food on the kitchen counter to DN.

No one has said a word about spoiled meat in testimony.

Again I ask, if you had found grocercies gone bad in your car would you, a reasonable person, bring the smelly food inside to the dirty kitchen to be cleaned? Why would Tif make more work for herself by bringing some type of spoiled food inside? Why not dispose of it in the trashcan in yard?

[Hawk]

Excuse me. I am sorry you can't follow the testimony of LE. BB did and it doesn't match up from one account to the next. And DN is the co-officer in charge. If she can't keep up with her own case, why should you?



Why weren't the receipts turned over to defense by 11/19? I have never read that they actually have a receipt for the milk & donuts purchase, does it exist?




DN went to the house to see Tif on her own that Thursday. Tif whined about the dirty kitchen and the spoiled food per DN. NO ONE has said Tif bought any meat that could have possibly rotted.

Tif tells DN that her car was getting smelly. She found her s'ghetti dinner, whatever it was, that she bought at Wilbur's. Oh Tif says and I bet the receipt for that.


Who brings "spoiled" food from outside to the inside?

There is no legitimate reason for DN not taking the Wilbur's video into evidence. DN went to retrieve the video for the 1st purchase at some point AFTER the child was arrested. That means had she gotten the tape, both purchases would have been on the tape.

Where was Tif's dad when he called VR at 4:45? What did the Kirks get at the store? There is NO evidence Tif made a 2nd purchase. What was it exactly that rotted? Why didn't the Kirks see her with a bag of food in her hand?


1.5 hours? How so? The boy never gave LE a time he came home. He gave LE some account of his actions. It was LE that placed the time upon him and couldn't be bothered to verify it before the 11/7 hearing. They had no idea if their time line was correct per DN's own testimony.

Respectfully speaking of course.

LE doesn't need a receipt for the milk and donuts if the items are confirmed to have been brought to the White Mountain Physical Therapy office by co-workers and a supervisor.

In my limited experience spaghetti without hamburger meat isn't
spaghetti.

Perhaps the Kirks did see Mrs. Romero with a grocery sack. Or maybe she put it in her car before seeing them, then walked from Wilbur's to NAPA. The two places are only 128' apart.

[Pag Boi]

After Nellie, the boxer pup was placed into Mrs. Romero's jeep the day of the murders I wonder why Nellie didn't get into the hamburger meat?

We don't know what Tif bought to make s'ghetti.

Maybe it was veggie and Nellie not like?


What did she buy for dinner? Why would anyone bring spoiled food from the car into the house?

[Pag Boi]

LE doesn't need a receipt for the milk and donuts if the items are confirmed to have been brought to the White Mountain Physical Therapy office by co-workers and a supervisor.

In my limited experience spaghetti without hamburger meat isn't
spaghetti.

Perhaps the Kirks did see Mrs. Romero with a grocery sack. Or maybe she put it in her car before seeing them, then walked from Wilbur's to NAPA. The two places are only 128' apart.



Where did you see/read this confirmation of the donuts and milk by coworkers? TIA

[Pag Boi]

I sure don't think so and surely the hamburger meat was tightly wrapped. We aren't talking about a bloodhound here but a boxer puppy.

She may have placed her where she couldn't get to the food.

imoo

Again, we don't know what went bad. Just that Tif said her Jeep got a smell. She found source. She had forgotten to tell LE about her 2nd trip to store.


However, I am sure glad that Tif thought to secure the meat when she put Nellie in the car. Tif just found out her husband had been murdered. Makes sense that she would forget all about it after Nellie was let out of the car. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Hawk]

We don't know what Tif bought to make s'ghetti.

Maybe it was veggie and Nellie not like?


What did she buy for dinner? Why would anyone bring spoiled food from the car into the house?


Veggies typically don't spoil in one day.

She wouldn't have left rotten stuff in her Jeep. Maybe she intended to use the garbage disposal. I don't know.

I apologize for being dense, but why is this important. Mrs. Romero has been checked, rechecked, then triple checked again by Mr. Brewer's investigator. There are simply no witnesses, nor evidence, to dispute her whereabouts at the time of the murders.

[Hawk]

Where did you see/read this confirmation of the donuts and milk by coworkers? TIA

It's SOP for investigators.

[Pag Boi]

Veggies typically don't spoil in one day.

She wouldn't have left rotten stuff in her Jeep. Maybe she intended to use the garbage disposal. I don't know.

I apologize for being dense, but why is this important. Mrs. Romero has been checked, rechecked, then triple checked again by Mr. Brewer's investigator. There are simply no witnesses, nor evidence, to dispute her whereabouts at the time of the murders.

You are speculating. You have no idea what BB has done.

It isn't the defense's job to present alternative suspects to LE/DA. Altho I do believe it will happen in this case so the client can be exonerated.

We don't have any evidence to back up LE's conflicting accounts of what was going on. Even DN/TA asked C where his mother was during the coerced confession interview.

We don't have any info to dispute anything other than what LE offered us up on their own platter. But you already know that.
JMOO

[Hawk]

You are speculating. You have no idea what BB has done.

It isn't the defense's job to present alternative suspects to LE/DA. Altho I do believe it will happen in this case so the client can be exonerated.

We don't have any evidence to back up LE's conflicting accounts of what was going on. Even DN/TA asked C where his mother was during the coerced confession interview.

We don't have any info to dispute anything other than what LE offered us up on their own platter. But you already know that.
JMOO

Of course it's incumbent on Mr. Brewers investigator to find alternate suspects. That's what they do. Take suspicion away from their client.

The boy would know where his step-mom was only by what he'd been told. He's not an eye witness to her exact whereabouts.

[Pag Boi]

It's SOP for investigators.

It should be SOP. Too bad the co-case officer in charge couldn't testify to what you allege.

The child was told Tif worked until 5 on Mondays and Wednesdays. They didn't verify that part of his story. Shouldn't that be SOP too?

Wouldn't it be SOP to ask Tif where she was up until she arrived home? One would think.

Good thing the good neighbor was there "3 days later' to luck into the deets about Tif's 2nd trip to the store! Whew. Plus it seems her daddy might have called VR about the same time her receipt is time stamped.


Then there is that pesky little fax Tif sent to coworkers. Did they read it over donuts & milk? Was that Tif's SOP? I'd love to know.

[Hawk]

I have two dobermans. One is just like yours, she would have ate it bag & all. The other, a male wouldn't touch it.

I imagine that puppy was pretty scared & traumatized and if not... very interested in all the commotion that was going on.

Maybe GentleBreeze is right about the food being inaccessible to the dog. I believe Mrs. Romero drivea a Jeep Cherokee and it may have a dog divider between the back seat and the storage compartment.
Still don't understand why this is important. But maybe it is.

[Hawk]

One could only hope to have such a fantastic alibi if we are ever suspected of a crime! A receipt for items found complete with time stamp, a video and EMT's as witnesses! Oops..I forgot the other witness from NAPA or whatever the store is called.

Careful planning coupled with infinite luck can make most anything possible I suppose.
But it's hard to dispute all these folks Mrs. Romero saw and spoke to.

[Pag Boi]

Veggies would not have smelled foul.

She bought stuff for spaghetti

Her husband was just brutally murdered perhaps she carried it in without even thinking. Maybe she planned on using the garbage disposal?

IMO her alibi is air tight.

Yep. Hubby just brutally murdered "3 days" before

yet in moments after learning of her hubby's murder, she was sure the meat (if there was any!!!) was tightly wrapped so as the puppy wouldn't get it?

OY, the garbage disposal, if there is one. I get it. Her kitchen is a mess and she has miles to go to clean it up from the murder/investigation. She finds the smelly/spoiled food. Removes it from her car and places it on the counter for a possible placement in disposal. I can see how that might happen.

[Pag Boi]

Neither, the actual witnesses are very capable of telling what they heard.

imo


That's great! But you haven't heard or read a word of the Jaramillos statement. You can't consider evidence you haven't seen or even verified by LE.


All we have on this issue is DN's conflicting accounts.

She either interviewed them & recorded it

OR

her chief interviewed them and relayed the story to her.

Which version should we believe?

[Jacobtk]

I did some reading last night and I see nothing that states Tiffany went to the store, returned home and then went back to the store again. Where did you read she did?

I addressed that yesterday. In Neckels interview with Brewer she states that Tiffany told her that she took the items to work and then went back to the store. However, it does not state that Neckels followed up with the job to confirm that. Also, it is entirely possible for Tiffany to have dropped the items off at work and returned home. Her actions and behavior seem questionable.

My question is how long does it take her to get from the store to her home and from work to her home.

[Jacobtk]

I think he might just see if the boy is "restorable" in the approx 245 days and hope a deal is reached during that time.

That would be unethical and would likely be overturned and cause Roca to lose both his job and law license. He can legally only make his judgment based on the results of the experts' analysis. He cannot find the boy restorable just to force the boy to accept a plea deal.

Based on the recent reports, apparently the state's expert reached the same conclusion as the defense's and found the boy incompetent due to his age. Placing him in treatment would not make him anymore capable of understanding the legal process or acting in his own defense, which is what the competency is for. Ergo, the boy would have to be found incompetent unless Roca legally justify ruling otherwise.

Or...... I think he may grant the prosecution's motion to dismiss one count for the same reason.

That would likewise be unethical and would cost Roca his job and law license. The judge must justify his reason for dismissing the count. He cannot dismiss the count to force the boy to accept a plea deal.

[Hawk]

I addressed that yesterday. In Neckels interview with Brewer she states that Tiffany told her that she took the items to work and then went back to the store. However, it does not state that Neckels followed up with the job to confirm that. Also, it is entirely possible for Tiffany to have dropped the items off at work and returned home. Her actions and behavior seem questionable.

My question is how long does it take her to get from the store to her home and from work to her home.

From her work to home is 1.7 miles. One right turn and one left turn.

From Wilbur's to the residence is .7 miles. One right turn then one left turn.

[Jacobtk]

From her work to home is 1.7 miles. One right turn and one left turn.

From Wilbur's to the residence is .7 miles. One right turn then one left turn.

In other words, it would not take her long to get from the store to work and then to home, right?

[Hawk]

In other words, it would not take her long to get from the store to work and then to home, right?

Not long at all. Two minutes max? I don't think there is even a traffic light to contend with.

[Pag Boi]

I addressed that yesterday. In Neckels interview with Brewer she states that Tiffany told her that she took the items to work and then went back to the store. However, it does not state that Neckels followed up with the job to confirm that. Also, it is entirely possible for Tiffany to have dropped the items off at work and returned home. Her actions and behavior seem questionable.

My question is how long does it take her to get from the store to her home and from work to her home.

IIRC, BB asked a LEO about the time/distance. less than a mile and just a couple of minutes away.

The Kirks got the EMT dispatch from there to Romero addy and were there within a couple of minutes.




JMOO, but the timeline leaves the door open for anyone to have committed this crime. If an 8yo can pull it off btwn 4:55 and 5:06, an adult could do it in even less time.

Since posters say it's SOP and Tif was allegedly fully investigated, I can't wait to find out how often Tif did the donuts & milk run. How ofthen she got off work b/f 5pm, etc.

[denisel]

IIRC, BB asked a LEO about the time/distance. less than a mile and just a couple of minutes away.

The Kirks got the EMT dispatch from there to Romero addy and were there within a couple of minutes.




JMOO, but the timeline leaves the door open for anyone to have committed this crime. If an 8yo can pull it off btwn 4:55 and 5:06, an adult could do it in even less time.

Since posters say it's SOP and Tif was allegedly fully investigated, I can't wait to find out how often Tif did the donuts & milk run. How ofthen she got off work b/f 5pm, etc.

Was there any logical explanation why the boy walked around the block for an hour and a half?

TR has an airtight alibi.

CR has no 1 1/2 hour alibi.

JMO

[Crispy]

It's SOP for investigators.


Well, I think that their view of SOP is slightly off. jmo

[bkwits]

I addressed that yesterday. In Neckels interview with Brewer she states that Tiffany told her that she took the items to work and then went back to the store. However, it does not state that Neckels followed up with the job to confirm that. Also, it is entirely possible for Tiffany to have dropped the items off at work and returned home. Her actions and behavior seem questionable.

My question is how long does it take her to get from the store to her home and from work to her home.

Prob only minutes from one place to the other. According to Mapquest it is 2 min. from work to Napa and Wilburs (they are right next to each other). The stores are prob 2 min from the Romero home. IMO

[bkwits]

IIRC, BB asked a LEO about the time/distance. less than a mile and just a couple of minutes away.

The Kirks got the EMT dispatch from there to Romero addy and were there within a couple of minutes.

JMOO, but the timeline leaves the door open for anyone to have committed this crime. If an 8yo can pull it off btwn 4:55 and 5:06, an adult could do it in even less time.

Since posters say it's SOP and Tif was allegedly fully investigated, I can't wait to find out how often Tif did the donuts & milk run. How ofthen she got off work b/f 5pm, etc.

Did Tiff even work that day?

[Hawk]

Here's a comment about Chief Melnick from one of his former jobs.


http://www.ashlandmass.com/town_manager/public_documents/town_mgr_press_release_20060705.pdf

[Hawk]

Well, I think that their view of SOP is slightly off. jmo

My basic reference was regarding Mr. Brewer's investigator. He's interviewed all the main players.

[Crispy]

My basic reference was regarding Mr. Brewer's investigator. He's interviewed all the main players.


See what I get for jumping in. LOL Sorry!

[secrets]

Since everybody is claiming whatever, I believe the next is also possible and probable:
1. The video of the store with Tiffany was watched by LE. Since later it was said by DN that Tiffany was 2 times in the store within 15-30 min, how come they saw her only once (since if she was twice on the video, they would have said 'we saw her 2 times')?
2. DN went to make clear to her certain aspects that were not adding up? Could that be the time that was on the tape when Tiffany was allegedly in the store? (I say allegedly, since without tape, we don't have a proof that is true). The time that probably was not giving an alibi to Tiffany?
3. DN states she spoke with Tiffany and somehow, magically, there is a second trip to the store, that trows the investigation away from Tiffany. In reality, when you do the math, there is still time for Tiffany to do the crime, or at least to be at the scene, just it was not further pursued since the second trip was introduced.
4. But now, the video was erased, just oh, hell, it happens. Especially when it is the crucial evidence regarding the alibi of a possible suspect, and neighbor, etc. Because, if there is no video, we can't claim she was at the store the first time, but we can't prove she was not there 2 times also, can we? Strangely, the other evidence regarding the boy were collected (horribly so, if I may add but about that in another post).

Why was really DN at her neighbors home the 3rd day? If she believed in Tiffany's statement, she could be even helping her in some ways, everything is possible. That has happened before. If we can believe that 8 years old child can plan an execution of 2 men, well why not believe the above could have happened?
JMOO

[bkwits]

Here's a comment about Chief Melnick from one of his former jobs.


http://www.ashlandmass.com/town_manager/public_documents/town_mgr_press_release_20060705.pdf

:huh:

Is that what is called "being damned with faint praise?"

[ChildsVOICE]

Hi All! I'm just stopping by for a minute. I've been trying to read up on the posts from last night and this morning.

I wanted to pass along that there have been some concerning messages coming from a variety of sources both on and off this message board regarding the boy's safety. Either some people think he's guilty and may not feel justice is being served AND/or the real perpetrator may be worried about the boy being a lead witness.

I have removed a few comments on the boy's site if they suggested his location. I just wanted to give you a head's up in case you see your comment deleted.

Justice will never prevail without the truth.

Logging off for now. Thank you for ALL your insight. No matter WHO did this, the truth needs to be known.

[Pag Boi]

Since everybody is claiming whatever, I believe the next is also possible and probable:
1. The video of the store with Tiffany was watched by LE. Since later it was said by DN that Tiffany was 2 times in the store within 15-30 min, how come they saw her only once (since if she was twice on the video, they would have said 'we saw her 2 times')?
2. DN went to make clear to her certain aspects that were not adding up? Could that be the time that was on the tape when Tiffany was allegedly in the store? (I say allegedly, since without tape, we don't have a proof that is true). The time that probably was not giving an alibi to Tiffany?
3. DN states she spoke with Tiffany and somehow, magically, there is a second trip to the store, that trows the investigation away from Tiffany. In reality, when you do the math, there is still time for Tiffany to do the crime, or at least to be at the scene, just it was not further pursued since the second trip was introduced.
4. But now, the video was erased, just oh, hell, it happens. Especially when it is the crucial evidence regarding the alibi of a possible suspect, and neighbor, etc. Because, if there is no video, we can't claim she was at the store the first time, but we can't prove she was not there 2 times also, can we? Strangely, the other evidence regarding the boy were collected (horribly so, if I may add but about that in another post).

Why was really DN at her neighbors home the 3rd day? If she believed in Tiffany's statement, she could be even helping her in some ways, everything is possible. That has happened before. If we can believe that 8 years old child can plan an execution of 2 men, well why not believe the above could have happened?
JMOO

DN didn't go to Wilbur's until sometime after C was arrested.

How did DN know the 4:20 purchase was the Tif clip she wanted? Tif claims not to know about a video. DN tells her that she only saw her buying milk & donuts. Tif says what video? It is obvious at that point DN had no receipt from Tif to prove what she purchased or else Tif would have known what DN was looking for on video.

VR's coworker also said he was in Wilbur's

The Kirks said they were in Wilbur's

Wouldn't it be SOP to at least glance at the video in front of you to verify their stories? When the tape was reviewed, they had to backtrack past all those witnesses to get to Tif's alleged 4:20 purchase.

I can't help but think that Wilbur's video was erased on purpose (but why??) There is no reason why DN couldn't have taken it as evidence. Esp since she claims that the tape was 10 mins off the real time.

DN is trying to verify timeline of a double homicide. She can't get a simple store tape? She only has a video of the video. I have NEVER heard of such sorry investigative results in my life.

[Details]

On the question - why didn't police see both visits on the tape - these tapes aren't usually high quality, and they're often still old fashioned VCR type tapes. They likely would have looked at the first receipt, seen what time they needed to review, and zoomed right to it - probably could have passed the Pope in full regalia and not seen it.

The second receipt- whatever we think of who did it - it doesn't prove that it was Tiffany, without a credit card being used, without the video available any more. It's likely still her - but it's not solid, unquestionable.

[Hawk]

:huh:

Is that what is called "being damned with faint praise?"

Good point!

"Although I have only served the community of Ashland with Chief Melnick since March 2005, I am aware that the Ashland Police Department was able to overcome the issues that plagued it under his leadership'"

Town Manager John Petrin.

[Pag Boi]

Was there any logical explanation why the boy walked around the block for an hour and a half?

TR has an airtight alibi.

CR has no 1 1/2 hour alibi.

JMO


I have heard about that "airtight alibi" but have yet to see one shred of evidence it exists.

TR is that Tanya or Tif you refer to? Tif's airtight alibi she forgot to mention until DN came over off the record? Or Tanya's alibi they didn't bother to ask for b/f they arrested the 8yo. I'd love to know when all that air got sucked up so tight for TR & TR. It takes only a few minutes to off 2 grown men with a pea shooter like Tif had.

What time did the bus drop the child off? Oh that's right, we don't know. DN and TA decided what time he was home. They could not determine if their guess was accurate. They couldn't be bothered to determine that with any accuracy

[Pag Boi]

On the question - why didn't police see both visits on the tape - these tapes aren't usually high quality, and they're often still old fashioned VCR type tapes. They likely would have looked at the first receipt, seen what time they needed to review, and zoomed right to it - probably could have passed the Pope in full regalia and not seen it.

The second receipt- whatever we think of who did it - it doesn't prove that it was Tiffany, without a credit card being used, without the video available any more. It's likely still her - but it's not solid, unquestionable.

Maybe you should reread DN's statementS if you believe what you type. JMOO

[Hawk]

I have heard about that "airtight alibi" but have yet to see one shred of evidence it exists.

TR is that Tanya or Tif you refer to? Tif's airtight alibi she forgot to mention until DN came over off the record? Or Tanya's alibi they didn't bother to ask for b/f they arrested the 8yo. I'd love to know when all that air got sucked up so tight for TR & TR. It takes only a few minutes to off 2 grown men with a pea shooter like Tif had.

What time did the bus drop the child off? Oh that's right, we don't know. DN and TA decided what time he was home. They could not determine if their guess was accurate. They couldn't be bothered to determine that with any accuracy

Where was the green jeep?

[Pag Boi]

Did Tiff even work that day?

I feel sure that would be incumbent upon Brewer to verify. SOP and all that jazz

[Details]

Maybe you should reread DN's statementS if you believe what you type. JMOOIf you have something contradictory, it'd be more helpful to say what it is, rather than point vaguely to some document out of the hundreds of pages out there.

[Hawk]

The surveillance equipment at the grocery store may or may not use removable media. It could be old time VCR, DVD, or simply hard drive based. There's no way of us knowing at this point.
However had the police, the prosecution, or defence felt it was important it would have extracted.

St. Johns PD operates on a small budget. They don't have all the high-tech equipment that a larger jurisdiction would have. Again, if it was removable, and we don't know that it hasn't been, the AZ DPS or Mr. Brewer's team would have gotten what they needed from the equipment. Of course if the recorder automatically reset or rewound due to filled capacity there's nothing that can retrieve the recording.

[secrets]

On the question - why didn't police see both visits on the tape - these tapes aren't usually high quality, and they're often still old fashioned VCR type tapes. They likely would have looked at the first receipt, seen what time they needed to review, and zoomed right to it - probably could have passed the Pope in full regalia and not seen it.

The second receipt- whatever we think of who did it - it doesn't prove that it was Tiffany, without a credit card being used, without the video available any more. It's likely still her - but it's not solid, unquestionable.

But since several people were at the store, wouldn't LE check the video further, to see who else's statement fits the timeline? It is not so much maybe more than half hour to watch. If she was 2 times at the store, when questioned the same day, she would have mentioned that and they would have checked that at the same time they checked for the first visit to the store. Do you see my point? Tiffany never mentioned the first time interviewed that she was 2 times there. If she did, they would have checked that on the video when they did check for the first time.
If DN went to clarify certain things additionally, on her on, and of duty, what does that tell you? To me, it says 2 things:
1. She went to somehow clear the inconsistencies in Tiffani story, and being the great detective, she excepted the story she was given.
2. She knows the story isn't accurate, but she goes along (or maybe worse), because she thinks the boy did it anyway, or at least she is under pressure to go along with that story, especially since the sheriff said so to the world the day before.

[Pag Boi]

DN tells BB that the only vehicle on the scene when they arrived was Tim's silver truck w/passenger door open.

Mike Kilmer tells Officer Jones that he saw 2 trucks and 3 people at the crime scene when he was dropping off the neighbor.

Jones takes Kilmer to the scene. Jones tells Sgt. Rod what Kilmer described.


Sgt Rod tells Jones that Kilmer merely saw the "vehicles & people that CR first contacted who saw 911."


But there was only one vehicle on the premises when LE arrived per the reports. Why would Sgt Rod dismiss what Kilmer claimed to have seen?

These types of gaffes will make justice much harder to attain
JMOO.

[secrets]

The surveillance equipment at the grocery store may or may not use removable media. It could be old time VCR, DVD, or simply hard drive based. There's no way of us knowing at this point.
However had the police, the prosecution, or defence felt it was important it would have extracted.

St. Johns PD operates on a small budget. They don't have all the high-tech equipment that a larger jurisdiction would have. Again, if it was removable, and we don't know that it hasn't been, the AZ DPS or Mr. Brewer's team would have gotten what they needed from the equipment. Of course if the recorder automatically reset or rewound due to filled capacity there's nothing that can retrieve the recording.

If she was 2 times at the store, don't you think she would have mentioned that since the bigining, and they would have checked that at the same time they did for the first trip to the store?
And the police and prosecution HAD to think it important, she was the first person they should have suspected, don't you think? Every evidence of guilt or innocence should have been obtained. As for the defense, I believe by the time they got the information of Tiffany's whereabouts during the crime, the video was nonexistent.

[muska]

Since everybody is claiming whatever, I believe the next is also possible and probable:
1. The video of the store with Tiffany was watched by LE. Since later it was said by DN that Tiffany was 2 times in the store within 15-30 min, how come they saw her only once (since if she was twice on the video, they would have said 'we saw her 2 times')?
2. DN went to make clear to her certain aspects that were not adding up? Could that be the time that was on the tape when Tiffany was allegedly in the store? (I say allegedly, since without tape, we don't have a proof that is true). The time that probably was not giving an alibi to Tiffany?
3. DN states she spoke with Tiffany and somehow, magically, there is a second trip to the store, that trows the investigation away from Tiffany. In reality, when you do the math, there is still time for Tiffany to do the crime, or at least to be at the scene, just it was not further pursued since the second trip was introduced.
4. But now, the video was erased, just oh, hell, it happens. Especially when it is the crucial evidence regarding the alibi of a possible suspect, and neighbor, etc. Because, if there is no video, we can't claim she was at the store the first time, but we can't prove she was not there 2 times also, can we? Strangely, the other evidence regarding the boy were collected (horribly so, if I may add but about that in another post).

Why was really DN at her neighbors home the 3rd day? If she believed in Tiffany's statement, she could be even helping her in some ways, everything is possible. That has happened before. If we can believe that 8 years old child can plan an execution of 2 men, well why not believe the above could have happened?
JMOO

I think a lot of the LE and possible suspects knew each other. They were related or were friends or were aquaintances or at the least knew someone who knew someone. I think this gave a lot of people a free pass, or something close to that. Who wants to look like they suspect a friend? What happens to that relationship afterwards? Easier to just go with the easy target. Sad that the easy target had to be 8 years old. Once the tape was released, IMO, it was too late to ever do any kind of satisfactory investigation.

I have always been bothered by the exchange that you describe above. DN pretty much just told Tiffany what was missing from her alibi and how to fill it in. Tiffany might have said the same thing on her own, but DN should not have helped.

[Details]

But since several people were at the store, wouldn't LE check the video further, to see who else's statement fits the timeline? It is not so much maybe more than half hour to watch. If she was 2 times at the store, when questioned the same day, she would have mentioned that and they would have checked that at the same time they checked for the first visit to the store. Do you see my point? Tiffany never mentioned the first time interviewed that she was 2 times there. If she did, they would have checked that on the video when they did check for the first time.
If DN went to clarify certain things additionally, on her on, and of duty, what does that tell you? To me, it says 2 things:
1. She went to somehow clear the inconsistencies in Tiffani story, and being the great detective, she excepted the story she was given.
2. She knows the story isn't accurate, but she goes along (or maybe worse), because she thinks the boy did it anyway, or at least she is under pressure to go along with that story, especially since the sheriff said so to the world the day before.LE would have no reason - maybe no right - to watch further - and there aren't other suspects who say they were at the store.

It would indeed make the most sense to me that she would say if she were twice at the store, when first interviewed - it's a bad fit that she didn't. That is the suspicious bit. However - spoiled meat plus a receipt for that meat, while not solid, is somewhat persuasive. Unless it was part of some excessively intricate plan to have an alibi - how do you get a receipt from some friend or neighbor for the exact time you want? It's not easy, and it has to be someone who won't talk when it emerges in the media that this is your alibi.

The timeline likely wasn't as clear during the first interview - after a few more bits of info come out, then it can become clear that the first trip is not an alibi, isn't at the right time to be an alibi. So that would be the reason for the next question. What that means DN thought - you never know.

In our good old Stephanie Crowe case - the police had already decided it was her brother when they picked up Tuite, the real killer. They took his sweatshirt - not to test it, but to be an alibi to prove he didn't do it, if some defense attorney ever tried to point the finger at the transient. It took a lot of fighting and court orders to get them to finally test it. The police didn't go the extra mile on Tuite because they thought he might have done it, because their instincts were telling them to take a second look - but only to try to protect their case against the brother.

[Hawk]

If she was 2 times at the store, don't you think she would have mentioned that since the bigining, and they would have checked that at the same time they did for the first trip to the store?
And the police and prosecution HAD to think it important, she was the first person they should have suspected, don't you think? Every evidence of guilt or innocence should have been obtained. As for the defense, I believe by the time they got the information of Tiffany's whereabouts during the crime, the video was nonexistent.

Because the receipt she gave Detective Neckel was for the dinner items, not the donuts and milk she had taken to her work before stopping at the store the second time en route home.

[secrets]

Because the receipt she gave Detective Neckel was for the dinner items, not the donuts and milk she had taken to her work before stopping at the store the second time en route home.

But why not tell LE immediately that she was 2 times at the store, but only mention the time around 4.20? The shooting happens about the same time she was in the store 2 time, but she forgets to mention that and to find the receipt, until 3 days later when she is confronted by DN?
This inconsistencies pint me to her, JMOO.

ETA: For example, she could say to LE: I just stopped at the store to by some meat for dinner, It's in my car. But instead she says: I was at the store at 4.20 to by milk and donuts, I took them to work, check it.
What do you think?

[Pag Boi]

If you have something contradictory, it'd be more helpful to say what it is, rather than point vaguely to some document out of the hundreds of pages out there.


By all means, let me help you


DN: It, goes off after so many, so many, hours, and it, um, it’s digital, and, as a matter of fact that didn’t even know how ta pull that video off, I literally had ta take my video camera, and video record their video. Because we couldn’t get it pulled off and put on a CD, so…
CC: How, how’d it turn out? D’ya look at it?
DN: Yeah. Um, yeah, actually it looks, fine, it, ya can’t tell it’s, I mean you can tell it’s a video of a video, but it came out very ni, very good.
BB: So, the receipt fer spa, spaghetti was what? What was the rece, cuz that was the second time (unk)?
DN: That was the second time, but I don’t remember the time on it. I know, it was like approximately, four, I wanna say 4:45 er something like that.
BB: And that would be the accurate time, or, ten minutes (unk)?
DN: No, that would be the accurate time. The receipt showed the accurate time, it was the video that showed the ten minutes off.
BB: And, the next, call she got was, from *****, about 5:12 er so.
DN: Well, yeah, she actually, she stopped and she talked ta Jean and Jason Kirk, on her way over ta Napa, she went into Napa to, order some more coveralls fer Vince. And, at, that point she’s been in Napa for maybe two minutes, when, the call came in. Jean and Jason Kirk had already left ta go to the house, they had arrived before Tiffany actually arrived.


I hope the Kirks have a 30 minute chat w/Tif listed in their witness statement


Aside from this stmt that the film goes off after so many hours. What an idiot. If she could get video at 4:20, she could get video at 4:45.

Had this been a robbery, Wilbur's would have a tape copy for LE ASAP. A double homicide wasn't worth preserving tho.

[Hawk]

But why not tell LE immediately that she was 2 times at the store, but only mention the time around 4.20? The shooting happens about the same time she was in the store 2 time, but she forgets to mention that and to find the receipt, until 3 days later when she is confronted by DN?
This inconsistencies pint me to her, JMOO.

I imagine she was traumatized and didn't consider that she would be a suspect. Her husband was just murdered.

I'm sorry. There isn't anything to substantiate her being the killer. Where did she park her jeep? The area is flat. No woods to hide in. There is only one main road into and out of the neighborhood. Everyone pretty much knows everyone else. Her jeep is recognizable by everyone in town. Traffic is light. What are the odds no one would notice her on the road? Especially at quitting time.

[Details]

By all means, let me help you


DN: It, goes off after so many, so many, hours, and it, um, it’s digital, and, as a matter of fact that didn’t even know how ta pull that video off, I literally had ta take my video camera, and video record their video. Because we couldn’t get it pulled off and put on a CD, so…
CC: How, how’d it turn out? D’ya look at it?
DN: Yeah. Um, yeah, actually it looks, fine, it, ya can’t tell it’s, I mean you can tell it’s a video of a video, but it came out very ni, very good.
BB: So, the receipt fer spa, spaghetti was what? What was the rece, cuz that was the second time (unk)?
DN: That was the second time, but I don’t remember the time on it. I know, it was like approximately, four, I wanna say 4:45 er something like that.
BB: And that would be the accurate time, or, ten minutes (unk)?
DN: No, that would be the accurate time. The receipt showed the accurate time, it was the video that showed the ten minutes off.
BB: And, the next, call she got was, from *****, about 5:12 er so.
DN: Well, yeah, she actually, she stopped and she talked ta Jean and Jason Kirk, on her way over ta Napa, she went into Napa to, order some more coveralls fer Vince. And, at, that point she’s been in Napa for maybe two minutes, when, the call came in. Jean and Jason Kirk had already left ta go to the house, they had arrived before Tiffany actually arrived.


I hope the Kirks have a 30 minute chat w/Tif listed in their witness statement


Aside from this stmt that the film goes off after so many hours. What an idiot. If she could get video at 4:20, she could get video at 4:45.

Had this been a robbery, Wilbur's would have a tape copy for LE ASAP. A double homicide wasn't worth preserving tho. Thanks.

I don't consider the format all that important - but digital - while not generally fuzzy as you rewind, is a format where it's easier to go right to a particular spot.

And had this been a robbery, they'd preserve the recording of the robbery - not of the time 25 minutes after the robbery. There was no reason to record tape of a time when (at that time) Tiffany wasn't even claiming to be in the store. Especially since they had no equipment to preserve it, which means they'd have to sit there and record the recording for a half hour to get that - and why would they? They don't know, at that point, that there's any claim of anyone being there.

[Pag Boi]

LE would have no reason - maybe no right - to watch further - and there aren't other suspects who say they were at the store.

It would indeed make the most sense to me that she would say if she were twice at the store, when first interviewed - it's a bad fit that she didn't. That is the suspicious bit. However - spoiled meat plus a receipt for that meat, while not solid, is somewhat persuasive. Unless it was part of some excessively intricate plan to have an alibi - how do you get a receipt from some friend or neighbor for the exact time you want? It's not easy, and it has to be someone who won't talk when it emerges in the media that this is your alibi.

The timeline likely wasn't as clear during the first interview - after a few more bits of info come out, then it can become clear that the first trip is not an alibi, isn't at the right time to be an alibi. So that would be the reason for the next question. What that means DN thought - you never know.

In our good old Stephanie Crowe case - the police had already decided it was her brother when they picked up Tuite, the real killer. They took his sweatshirt - not to test it, but to be an alibi to prove he didn't do it, if some defense attorney ever tried to point the finger at the transient. It took a lot of fighting and court orders to get them to finally test it. The police didn't go the extra mile on Tuite because they thought he might have done it, because their instincts were telling them to take a second look - but only to try to protect their case against the brother.



WTH? LE would have no right or reason to watch further.

1. They had to rewind the tape to review when Tif was there. I'll run get you the DN stmts that imply DN didn't have Tif's receipt or know what to look for during 1st purchase if you need it.

2. Tif used the Kirks as an alibi at some point (but not in TA's written report) on 11/7 DN says she is awaiting their stmt b/c times are a little off.

3. Coworkers of VR/TR were there after 5pm. This was known b/f CR was arrested and b/f tape was reviewed.

Seriously, the video of the video????


When did DN go to Wilbur's? Why didn't she retrieve the video of the purchase? The video is 10 minutes off real time b/c they called dispatch??? DN's video of the video is evidence? If this wasn't such a tragedy, it'd make great comedy.

A video of a video that is 10 minutes off. But it came out great! Honest.

[Pag Boi]

Thanks.

I don't consider the format all that important - but digital - while not generally fuzzy as you rewind, is a format where it's easier to go right to a particular spot.

And had this been a robbery, they'd preserve the recording of the robbery - not of the time 25 minutes after the robbery. There was no reason to record tape of a time when (at that time) Tiffany wasn't even claiming to be in the store. Especially since they had no equipment to preserve it, which means they'd have to sit there and record the recording for a half hour to get that - and why would they? They don't know, at that point, that there's any claim of anyone being there.


Whatever you want to make up

DN asked all neighbors to give stmts on their whereabouts from 4-5:30. Goes to the SRP to get the video from that day.

It is unrealistic to expect her to look at the store video during the same time lines. Silly me. A robbery investigation should be so much more detailed. A double homicide doesn't merit retainng the tape. :barf:

LE knew about the coworkers that were there before they went to the store to review the video.

They would have to record for 30 minutes? Why not replace the tape or tell the store to make the copy? DN had no problem getting day's tape from SRP. She just requested it and went it picked up in the middle of the night.

Oh but how did DN know what time to look for in the video at all?


DN: was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.


How did DN know what to look for in the store video? There is something very awkward about this story JMOO

[Details]

A police officer is told the individual in question says she was in there buying stuff. They jump around the time in question, find it, record it. There isn't a reason to record half an hour later. And there are often issues with search and seizure, where police are often not allowed to go outside of what they were looking for - they were there looking for one particular occurrence, got it, to go beyond, aside from being a waste of time, might be something an attorney can get tossed out. That might or might not apply here - but it sounds like it's in the same area. There's a double-murder, wasting a half hour recording more than needed - not the best use of your time.

It's all 20/20 hindsight - now we know it would have been essential to confirm or deny her as a suspect - but how could DN or anyone know how the stories would evolve?

And digital - no ejectable media. She didn't know how to get the whole tape, sounds like she may have been saying they didn't know either. Probably could be downloaded - but it was a simple backing up of an alibi - not a video of the crime itself.

[wolfi_2]

I imagine she was traumatized and didn't consider that she would be a suspect. Her husband was just murdered.

I'm sorry. There isn't anything to substantiate her being the killer. Where did she park her jeep? The area is flat. No woods to hide in. There is only one main road into and out of the neighborhood. Everyone pretty much knows everyone else. Her jeep is recognizable by everyone in town. Traffic is light. What are the odds no one would notice her on the road? Especially at quitting time.


maybe she used a white car? In case I planned it, I would never use my own car!

[Hawk]

maybe she use a white car? In case I planned it, I would never use my own car!

No place to hide her jeep. Someone would have seen it, parked or moving.
I think we often forget the area we're talking about. It's small, few residents, and only one main road. There ain't no place to hide. Mrs. Romero is well known. So is her jeep. It's broad daylight.

You can google the address and see the layout.

[Pag Boi]

A police officer is told the individual in question says she was in there buying stuff. They jump around the time in question, find it, record it. There isn't a reason to record half an hour later. And there are often issues with search and seizure, where police are often not allowed to go outside of what they were looking for - they were there looking for one particular occurrence, got it, to go beyond, aside from being a waste of time, might be something an attorney can get tossed out. That might or might not apply here - but it sounds like it's in the same area. There's a double-murder, wasting a half hour recording more than needed - not the best use of your time.

It's all 20/20 hindsight - now we know it would have been essential to confirm or deny her as a suspect - but how could DN or anyone know how the stories would evolve?

And digital - no ejectable media. She didn't know how to get the whole tape, sounds like she may have been saying they didn't know either. Probably could be downloaded - but it was a simple backing up of an alibi - not a video of the crime itself.

Oh for crying out loud. DN isn't the one that would retrieve the tape. The store personnel in charge of such duties would be the one to take DN back in time to review ANY footage.


Digital makes it that much easier to duplicate. Take the tape from the time DN got to store all the way back to some point the day before. Simple simon stuff. Same as she got from SRP.


They knew the coworkers claimed to be there. They were waiting on the Kirks statement on 11/19.


This was a double homicide. They didn't know they'd need tape. They didn't know they'd need the boys bus schedule. It's no wonder this child has been accused of such a horrible crime. No one cared or even had the skills to find out who dun it.

Thank goodness for BB & RW. Hopefully they will succeed in showcasing the gross misconduct of this investigation. It is disgusting JMOO

[wolfi_2]

No place to hide her jeep. Someone would have seen it, parked or moving.
I think we often forget the area we're talking about. It's small, few residents, and only one main road. There ain't no place to hide. Mrs. Romero is well known. So is her jeep. It's broad daylight.

You can google the address and see the layout.

yes I know, but I speak about a white car, she may be used! -not about her own Jeep.

[denisel]

Did I miss anything? Any speculation on what CR did for an hour and a half after he got off the bus? Why he picked this day to walk around the block as opposed to any other school day? Why no school kids noticed him? Seems pretty convenient to me. JMO

[Hawk]

yes I know, but I speak about a white car, she may be used! -not about her own Jeep.


She would have to leave her jeep somewhere in order to get in a white car. Then go back and get it.

[Hawk]

Oh for crying out loud. DN isn't the one that would retrieve the tape. The store personnel in charge of such duties would be the one to take DN back in time to review ANY footage.


Digital makes it that much easier to duplicate. Take the tape from the time DN got to store all the way back to some point the day before. Simple simon stuff. Same as she got from SRP.


They knew the coworkers claimed to be there. They were waiting on the Kirks statement on 11/19.


This was a double homicide. They didn't know they'd need tape. They didn't know they'd need the boys bus schedule. It's no wonder this child has been accused of such a horrible crime. No one cared or even had the skills to find out who dun it.

Thank goodness for BB & RW. Hopefully they will succeed in showcasing the gross misconduct of this investigation. It is disgusting JMOO

The difference between the surveillance equipment The Power plant has and that of a small town independent grocery store would be the equivalent of comparing Saks Fifth Avenue to The Dollar Store.

[Details]

Did I miss anything? Any speculation on what CR did for an hour and a half after he got off the bus? Why he picked this day to walk around the block as opposed to any other school day? Why no school kids noticed him? Seems pretty convenient to me. JMOThere's no indication this was an unusual day. Nor do we know yet what time he did get off the bus. He was a kid given an hour or two of unsupervised time a few times a week - it seems likely he frequently walked around the block, played around. And no reason he'd be noticed - he's just another kid walking around.

[Details]

The difference between the surveillance equipment The Power plant has and that of a small town independent grocery store would be the equivalent of comparing Saks Fifth Avenue to The Dollar Store.And the amount of training and knowledge the grocery store employees have is likely also very small. Usually a digital recorder, you'd need the right type of equipment to download the video - a recording of a recording is a fair option. Good enough to establish the facts.

[bkwits]

Did I miss anything? Any speculation on what CR did for an hour and a half after he got off the bus? Why he picked this day to walk around the block as opposed to any other school day? Why no school kids noticed him? Seems pretty convenient to me. JMO


I have wondered about this as well. Perhaps he was off doing something he shouldn't have been doing. We don't know that know one saw him. It's just that we don't know all of the evidence and defense case. He prob was playing in dirt somehwere, because Det. Neckel said his jeans were very dirty. She didn't even notice the blood on his jeans because they were so dirty.

These statements are in her interview with Brewer.

So if he just got off the bus from school, only about an hour or so before his dad got home, where did he get all of that dirt on his clothes?

[Pag Boi]

The difference between the surveillance equipment The Power plant has and that of a small town independent grocery store would be the equivalent of comparing Saks Fifth Avenue to The Dollar Store.

IGA is an independent? Who knew.

I wonder what the recording from the SRP shows? Was it on a cd? Could that be what DN drove out and picked up in the middle of the night? Was it digital? or was it VCR (as another poster described the Wilbur's device)? Oh, we have no idea because it has never been disclosed in the public docs.

Now on to the dirty details of digitial security cameras.

Wilbur's aka IGA had digital recordings. Very easy to copy/review. Unless it is your first week on the job as detective and you think it is your job to get the video from a company you don't work for. Seems DN didn't want to ask the proper people to get the footage for her. Apparently the evidence in review doesn't keep time properly per DN. Best that she just video the video and let it slide as evidence. :rolleyes:

SRP aka Saks Fifth Avenue footage is unknown to us but you consider it oscar-worthy.

Let's recap...........Saks vs $1 Store = apples & oranges.


Thx 4 the :lol:

[Details]

...So if he just got off the bus from school, only about an hour or so before his dad got home, where did he get all of that dirt on his clothes?Any little boy can get that kind of dirt in 15 minutes, or 5 - playing in a bit of dirt or mud, climbing trees, digging a hole, etc. Although it could have been that the pants were dirty in the morning too - either due to slack housekeeping, or due to a little boy not putting them in the hamper, deciding to wear them again.

[Hawk]

IGA is an independent? Who knew.

I wonder what the recording from the SRP shows? Was it on a cd? Could that be what DN drove out and picked up in the middle of the night? Was it digital? or was it VCR (as another poster described the Wilbur's device)? Oh, we have no idea because it has never been disclosed in the public docs.

Now on to the dirty details of digitial security cameras.

Wilbur's aka IGA had digital recordings. Very easy to copy/review. Unless it is your first week on the job as detective and you think it is your job to get the video from a company you don't work for. Seems DN didn't want to ask the proper people to get the footage for her. Apparently the evidence in review doesn't keep time properly per DN. Best that she just video the video and let it slide as evidence. :rolleyes:

SRP aka Saks Fifth Avenue footage is unknown to us but you consider it oscar-worthy.

Let's recap...........Saks vs $1 Store = apples & oranges.


Thx 4 the :lol:

IGA stands for Independent Grocers Alliance. Their combined budget is minuscule compared to the Salt River Project.
Digital isn't a media. It can be hard drive or removable DVD.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The premise of Detective Neckel and the townsfolk conspiring with Mrs. Romero in a murder case is a ridiculous concept without basis in my opinion.

But, of course, you are entitled to your own opinion.

[bkwits]

Any little boy can get that kind of dirt in 15 minutes, or 5 - playing in a bit of dirt or mud, climbing trees, digging a hole, etc. Although it could have been that the pants were dirty in the morning too - either due to slack housekeeping, or due to a little boy not putting them in the hamper, deciding to wear them again.

I raised two sons, and my grandson has spent a great deal of time at my house, so I do know a little bit about how dirty boys can get. As I understand it, these are dark blue, jeans. I don't think it likely that he wore pants "that" dirty to school. He prob didn't get dirty in school, so it seems like he played somewhere after school in that hour plus before he ran to the neighbors.

IMO

[PensiveOne]

By all means, let me help you


DN: It, goes off after so many, so many, hours, and it, um, it’s digital, and, as a matter of fact that didn’t even know how ta pull that video off, I literally had ta take my video camera, and video record their video. Because we couldn’t get it pulled off and put on a CD, so…
CC: How, how’d it turn out? D’ya look at it?
DN: Yeah. Um, yeah, actually it looks, fine, it, ya can’t tell it’s, I mean you can tell it’s a video of a video, but it came out very ni, very good.
BB: So, the receipt fer spa, spaghetti was what? What was the rece, cuz that was the second time (unk)?
DN: That was the second time, but I don’t remember the time on it. I know, it was like approximately, four, I wanna say 4:45 er something like that.
BB: And that would be the accurate time, or, ten minutes (unk)?
DN: No, that would be the accurate time. The receipt showed the accurate time, it was the video that showed the ten minutes off.
BB: And, the next, call she got was, from *****, about 5:12 er so.
DN: Well, yeah, she actually, she stopped and she talked ta Jean and Jason Kirk, on her way over ta Napa, she went into Napa to, order some more coveralls fer Vince. And, at, that point she’s been in Napa for maybe two minutes, when, the call came in. Jean and Jason Kirk had already left ta go to the house, they had arrived before Tiffany actually arrived.


I hope the Kirks have a 30 minute chat w/Tif listed in their witness statement


Aside from this stmt that the film goes off after so many hours. What an idiot. If she could get video at 4:20, she could get video at 4:45.

Had this been a robbery, Wilbur's would have a tape copy for LE ASAP. A double homicide wasn't worth preserving tho.

Pag Boi...I totally agree. I have been wondering about that time lapse for a while now. It is a crucial time period. iirc somewhere in the BB interview someone says the Kirks were talking to her around 5:00.

[wolfi_2]

IGA stands for Independent Grocers Alliance. Their combined budget is minuscule compared to the Salt River Project.
Digital isn't a media. It can be hard drive or removable DVD.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The premise of Detective Neckel and the townsfolk conspiring with Mrs. Romero in a murder case is a ridiculous concept without basis in my opinion.

But, of course, you are entitled to your own opinion.

That´s right, Conspiring with the townsfolk would be difficult, better -to unsafe, the only way it would work is, if there a few unknown relationships ( financially for example)

[Crispy]

I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think it was just downright shoddy police work. You would think they would have called in help from another agency to assist in all this mess.

[Hawk]

I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think it was just downright shoddy police work. You would think they would have called in help from another agency to assist in all this mess.

Absolutely. Pass it off to Arizona DPS, or at least the Sheriff's Office. And maybe to some extent they have since then. We don't know for sure.

[GentleBreeze]

IGA stands for Independent Grocers Alliance. Their combined budget is minuscule compared to the Salt River Project.
Digital isn't a media. It can be hard drive or removable DVD.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The premise of Detective Neckel and the townsfolk conspiring with Mrs. Romero in a murder case is a ridiculous concept without basis in my opinion.

But, of course, you are entitled to your own opinion.

I have been reading off and on today. Honestly, I don't know what others are getting at about Tiff and the time.

If there was anything whatsoever that wasn't legit with her alibi, the boy's attorneys would have been all over it. Since there hasn't been a hint of wrongdoing on her part, I think her alibi is iron clad and has been verified by both the state and the defense.

IMO, the boy has much more time unaccounted for than anyone.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think it was just downright shoddy police work. You would think they would have called in help from another agency to assist in all this mess.

I don't think there was a conspiracy either. But you would think they would at least ask the questions that we all are pondering. Maybe they have and we just haven't seen them. I wish we could see the transcripts of Tiffany's interview, the one they did after the first night.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think it was just downright shoddy police work. You would think they would have called in help from another agency to assist in all this mess.

I thought they did. Almost immediately.

They called in the Arizona DPS and the Apache Sheriff's department.

[Hawk]

Detective Neckels didn't ask for this to happen. If she were a Quantico graduate she'd probably be employed elsewhere. I still believe she has done the absolute best with what little she had to work with. I also believe she has sincere compassion for this child.

[Crispy]

Maybe that's why I'm a krabby patty. Stupid gag order!

[Hawk]

Maybe that's why I'm a krabby patty. Stupid gag order!

I'm with you Crispy! Wish it would be lifted. Not likely, though.

[rusure?]

And the police and prosecution HAD to think it important, she was the first person they should have suspected, don't you think?

Homicide Investigation 101.

[rusure?]

Because the receipt she gave Detective Neckel was for the dinner items, not the donuts and milk she had taken to her work before stopping at the store the second time en route home.

Good point. Does the video where she was seen at Wilbur's show what she bought? Where was she between donuts and spaghetti? Where was she before donuts. IIRC she was off work that day.

IIRC, there is a difference in time of 1 hour in Arizona. The reservation has one time and the rest of Arizona another. Where was Tanya when Tim called her? Could the time Tim called her an hour off because of time change?

[rusure?]

By all means, let me help you


DN: It, goes off after so many, so many, hours, and it, um, it’s digital, and, as a matter of fact that didn’t even know how ta pull that video off, I literally had ta take my video camera, and video record their video. Because we couldn’t get it pulled off and put on a CD, so…
CC: How, how’d it turn out? D’ya look at it?
DN: Yeah. Um, yeah, actually it looks, fine, it, ya can’t tell it’s, I mean you can tell it’s a video of a video, but it came out very ni, very good.
BB: So, the receipt fer spa, spaghetti was what? What was the rece, cuz that was the second time (unk)?
DN: That was the second time, but I don’t remember the time on it. I know, it was like approximately, four, I wanna say 4:45 er something like that.
BB: And that would be the accurate time, or, ten minutes (unk)?
DN: No, that would be the accurate time. The receipt showed the accurate time, it was the video that showed the ten minutes off.
BB: And, the next, call she got was, from *****, about 5:12 er so.
DN: Well, yeah, she actually, she stopped and she talked ta Jean and Jason Kirk, on her way over ta Napa, she went into Napa to, order some more coveralls fer Vince. And, at, that point she’s been in Napa for maybe two minutes, when, the call came in. Jean and Jason Kirk had already left ta go to the house, they had arrived before Tiffany actually arrived.

I hope the Kirks have a 30 minute chat w/Tif listed in their witness statement


Aside from this stmt that the film goes off after so many hours. What an idiot. If she could get video at 4:20, she could get video at 4:45.

Had this been a robbery, Wilbur's would have a tape copy for LE ASAP. A double homicide wasn't worth preserving tho.

Bold italic by me.

This goes with the timeline post I did yesterday. Why did she not hear the call?

[rusure?]

I imagine she was traumatized and didn't consider that she would be a suspect. Her husband was just murdered.

I'm sorry. There isn't anything to substantiate her being the killer. Where did she park her jeep? The area is flat. No woods to hide in. There is only one main road into and out of the neighborhood. Everyone pretty much knows everyone else. Her jeep is recognizable by everyone in town. Traffic is light. What are the odds no one would notice her on the road? Especially at quitting time.

Who would look closely at her jeep if everyone recognized her jeep. Wouldn't very well remember they saw her during the initial interviews the night of the murder. No one would consider it important enough to mention. Not many at home then either, according to police records.

[rusure?]

Whatever you want to make up

DN asked all neighbors to give stmts on their whereabouts from 4-5:30. Goes to the SRP to get the video from that day.

It is unrealistic to expect her to look at the store video during the same time lines. Silly me. A robbery investigation should be so much more detailed. A double homicide doesn't merit retainng the tape. :barf:

LE knew about the coworkers that were there before they went to the store to review the video.

They would have to record for 30 minutes? Why not replace the tape or tell the store to make the copy? DN had no problem getting day's tape from SRP. She just requested it and went it picked up in the middle of the night.

Oh but how did DN know what time to look for in the video at all?


DN: was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.


How did DN know what to look for in the store video? There is something very awkward about this story JMOO




How many would leave meat in the car to go in another store. I would have taken care of the overall order first because you never know how long you'll be in a store. I would go get meat etc. after taking care of that errand.

[rusure?]

And there are often issues with search and seizure, where police are often not allowed to go outside of what they were looking for - they were there looking for one particular occurrence, got it, to go beyond, aside from being a waste of time, might be something an attorney can get tossed out.

Issues with search and seizure didn't bother them when they took the underwear out of the case under the boy's headboard. They weren't overly concerned when they coerced a confession out of the boy. The weren't concerned when they would not allow grandpa or anyone else sit in on their "questioning". Why would they have been concerned about the video? Just take the whole bloomin thing and watch. There just might have been some people in the video that could have verified her statements.

[rusure?]

Any little boy can get that kind of dirt in 15 minutes, or 5 - playing in a bit of dirt or mud, climbing trees, digging a hole, etc.

What 8yo child do you know of that only spends 15 minutes, or 5 playing in a bit of dirt or mud, or clibing trees, or digging a hole. Takes more time to do those things than 15 or 5 minutes. Some kids would stay outside for hours doing those things. I've seen kids do it. Heck fire, my kids and their friends did it. My husband was an only child, and he did it by himself.

[rusure?]

IGA stands for Independent Grocers Alliance. Their combined budget is minuscule compared to the Salt River Project.
Digital isn't a media. It can be hard drive or removable DVD.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The premise of Detective Neckel and the townsfolk conspiring with Mrs. Romero in a murder case is a ridiculous concept without basis in my opinion.

But, of course, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Removable DVD? Why could it not be taken with her? That's why stores have media security cameras. So police can come get it when needed.

[GentleBreeze]

How many would leave meat in the car to go in another store. I would have taken care of the overall order first because you never know how long you'll be in a store. I would go get meat etc. after taking care of that errand.

It was in the 50s that day and the other store she went to was right close by.

This is a tiny town and this was on a Wednesday. I doubt there was congestion.

[rusure?]

Pag Boi...I totally agree. I have been wondering about that time lapse for a while now. It is a crucial time period. iirc somewhere in the BB interview someone says the Kirks were talking to her around 5:00.

Exactly. That in part is what I was talking about yesterday. The timeline is very questionable.

[GentleBreeze]

Bold italic by me.

This goes with the timeline post I did yesterday. Why did she not hear the call?

That most likely can be answered by the Kirks.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Exactly. That in part is what I was talking about yesterday. The timeline is very questionable.

What is questionable to me is the boy's unaccounted time line.

imo

[rusure?]

Absolutely. Pass it off to Arizona DPS, or at least the Sheriff's Office. And maybe to some extent they have since then. We don't know for sure.

Rodrigez or Chief of Police called DPS. DPS, 9according to Rodrigez or the Chief), told them to remove the bodies and they would be at the crime scene at 9AM. Officers stayed their all night on guard. Wonder if they may have taken a cat nap or two?

[rusure?]

Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:10-Kirks called to scene arrive a few minutes later.
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after Tim knowing "something is wrong"?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else in this timeline to take place as I have broken down the list, by ANYONE or ANY WEAPON. Why? Because there is too much time in between each killing for ANYONE to have done this with ANY WEAPON unless there is more than one killer and the killers were up to something else besides murder.

Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?
If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.

The above questions are all IMO. __________________

[Details]

The 5:03 shots heard - that's an uncertain time - it's a person's guess, could easily be off as much as 10 minutes in any direction.

[GentleBreeze]

The 5:03 shots heard - that's an uncertain time - it's a person's guess, could easily be off as much as 10 minutes in any direction.

I thought 5:03 pm was when Davis called in once he came home and saw Tim laying on the porch?

That would be an exact time, imo.

I thought the neighbors said they heard the shots around 5:05 pm. Now that could be an estimated time.

[Pag Boi]

I don't think there was a conspiracy either. But you would think they would at least ask the questions that we all are pondering. Maybe they have and we just haven't seen them. I wish we could see the transcripts of Tiffany's interview, the one they did after the first night.



I don't think it is a conspiracy per se.

I do think that it is a horrible investigation by LE woefully inept and unprofessional.

Tiffany is only the tip of the iceberg. I could sit here all night and poke holes in the alleged "airtight alibis" of other POIs.

It was just so much easier for LE to arrest the 8yo

I mean no one on that force had ever investigated a double homicide. They wrapped up the investigation in less than 20 hours???? Does that make everyone feel better now?

All the excuses for not getting the video, not confirming stories, not following up on the coworker tensions, the bar scenes, bullet hole in truck, C's bus drop off............

There is more wrong with this story than there is right. It is very disturbing JMOO

I have complete faith in BB, RW, Dawg and all the other advocates here. Something good will come out of this fiasco.JMOO

I'll

[Pag Boi]

Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:10-Kirks called to scene arrive a few minutes later.
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after Tim knowing "something is wrong"?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else in this timeline to take place as I have broken down the list, by ANYONE or ANY WEAPON. Why? Because there is too much time in between each killing for ANYONE to have done this with ANY WEAPON unless there is more than one killer and the killers were up to something else besides murder.

Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?
If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.

The above questions are all IMO. __________________

Thx for posting this rusure. You have done a great job. After the game I will give it a go over :)

[Details]

I thought 5:03 pm was when Davis called in once he came home and saw Tim laying on the porch?

That would be an exact time, imo.

I thought the neighbors said they heard the shots around 5:05 pm. Now that could be an estimated time.I'm referring to the timeline in the post above - the 5:03 shots heard entry. It's not solid enough to deduct 5:03 from 4:55 to decide that it took 8 minutes to kill Tim.

[Details]

I don't think it is a conspiracy per se.

I do think that it is a horrible investigation by LE woefully inept and unprofessional.

Tiffany is only the tip of the iceberg. I could sit here all night and poke holes in the alleged "airtight alibis" of other POIs.

It was just so much easier for LE to arrest the 8yo

I mean no one on that force had ever investigated a double homicide. They wrapped up the investigation in less than 20 hours???? Does that make everyone feel better now? ...Yeah, 20 hours - they should have known their own inexperience, and not just been so ready to take the easy answer and close up.

[bkwits]

Wrong team won:scared:

[Hawk]

Wow it's been some game too. I had to duck out and sneak away, sounds like a riot at my house!

Sloppiest Super Bowl ever. Fun to watch though.

[rusure?]

I thought 5:03 pm was when Davis called in once he came home and saw Tim laying on the porch?

That would be an exact time, imo.

I thought the neighbors said they heard the shots around 5:05 pm. Now that could be an estimated time.

IIRC, Davis called at 5:06

[rusure?]

Thx for posting this rusure. You have done a great job. After the game I will give it a go over :)

I'm glad I'm not interested in the Super Bowl. Got to post more that was on my mind and not try to read so much and post way past the post that I reply to. Post Post Post.

[Hawk]

I'm very confident they arrested the right person. I don't think an unnecessary and lengthy investigation is a very good idea when a double murderer is found.

I don't think we need experts to clock the time it takes for meat to rot, a dog psychologist to determine if this puppy would eat the stuff in the jeep, etc...


Hey. What's wrong with dog psychologists? Ain't ya never watched the Dog Whisperer? He could probably get Nellie to tell him what she saw.

[rusure?]

I'm referring to the timeline in the post above - the 5:03 shots heard entry. It's not solid enough to deduct 5:03 from 4:55 to decide that it took 8 minutes to kill Tim.

Sorry Details. I left off that was when the call was placed to 911 of shots heard. I'll go back and edit.

[rusure?]

I'm glad I'm not interested in the Super Bowl. Got to post more that was on my mind and not try to read so much and post way past the post that I reply to. Post Post Post.

On second thought, maybe I won't. The edit button is gone.

5:03 is the time the call to 911 was placed by neighbors that they heard shots.

[rusure?]

Yeah, 20 hours - they should have known their own inexperience, and not just been so ready to take the easy answer and close up.

I totally agree.

[GentleBreeze]

I'm referring to the time line in the post above - the 5:03 shots heard entry. It's not solid enough to deduct 5:03 from 4:55 to decide that it took 8 minutes to kill Tim.

I just went back and read and the 911 call came in from Davis at 5:03. I am not even sure the neighbors ever called 911 but it said the gunfire was heard about 5:05 pm, which yes, that would be an estimate but it doesn't matter because by that time the boy was with the Davis' and waiting at 5:03 pm for police to come, after the father had notified them.

I do think it is a tight time line.

At almost 4:55 pm Tim was alive.

By 5:03 pm it was all over. Even giving the boy enough time to leave the home, run to the neighbors, tell the boy what he had found, then the boy calling his father to come home and the father coming home and seeing Tim's to then call 911 by 5:03 pm

I think it took about 5 minutes to kill Tim or less. The shooter may have gone back inside after shooting Tim and shot VR again then put the gun on the cage and left.

imoo

[rusure?]

I just went back and read and the 911 call came in from Davis at 5:03. I am not even sure the neighbors ever called 911 but it said the gunfire was heard about 5:05 pm, which yes, that would be an estimate but it doesn't matter because by that time the boy was with the Davis' and waiting at 5:03 pm for police to come, after the father had notified them.

I do think it is a tight time line.

At almost 4:55 pm Tim was alive.

By 5:03 pm it was all over. Even giving the boy enough time to leave the home, run to the neighbors, tell the boy what he had found, then the boy calling his father to come home and the father coming home and seeing Tim's to then call 911 by 5:03 pm

I think it took about 5 minutes to kill Tim or less. The shooter may have gone back inside after shooting Tim and shot VR again then put the gun on the cage and left.

imoo

Thanks for checking that. Now I really think the time line is off. That leaves NOBODY time to do it. The boy says both were already down when he found them. Are we absolutely sure about the time of the call from Tim to Tanya????

[Hawk]

I just went back and read and the 911 call came in from Davis at 5:03. I am not even sure the neighbors ever called 911 but it said the gunfire was heard about 5:05 pm, which yes, that would be an estimate but it doesn't matter because by that time the boy was with the Davis' and waiting at 5:03 pm for police to come, after the father had notified them.

I do think it is a tight time line.

At almost 4:55 pm Tim was alive.

By 5:03 pm it was all over. Even giving the boy enough time to leave the home, run to the neighbors, tell the boy what he had found, then the boy calling his father to come home and the father coming home and seeing Tim's to then call 911 by 5:03 pm

I think it took about 5 minutes to kill Tim or less. The shooter may have gone back inside after shooting Tim and shot VR again then put the gun on the cage and left.

imoo

Since the 911 transcript isn't timestamped the only time we know for sure is the Romans conversation. The rest are simply estimates (although they would have the exact times from all the cell phone records by now). And incoming calls to Apache County Dispatch as well as outgoing emergency radio transmissions.

[denisel]

Little boys like to get dirty and sometimes will put on the same pair of clothes. Add 1 hour of play time at school with 2 recesses and a half hour lunch recess. I don't find dirt unusual for a young boy.

The timeline is so narrow for anyone else and only the boy was there for almost 2 hours. I hope the boy gets off with thrapy, but IMO he had motive, opportunity, time, his own weapon, a confession, knowledge of the crime, firearm experience. No other theories presented here make much sense. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Thanks for checking that. Now I really think the time line is off. That leaves NOBODY time to do it. The boy says both were already down when he found them. Are we absolutely sure about the time of the call from Tim to Tanya????

His cell phone was at the crime scene. All they had to do was look and it would tell them the time of the last call. Mine gives me the duration of the call. They did say all cell phone records would be obtained from Verizon.

I think the time line is just about as close and as good as I have ever seen in any case. Thank goodness there was quite a lot of cell phone activity right around the horrible events, both right before and after.

It doesn't take that long to shoot this gun. Seconds each for all the steps for each shot. I think it may have taken the shooter longer to position himself each time to give him a tactical advantage than it did to reload and shoot.

imoo

[rusure?]

Revised Timeline: iirc
4:20-Tiffany in store
4:45-Tiffany second time in store
4:45-VR recieves call from father
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:10-Kirks called to scene arrive a few minutes later.
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:00 and 5:03 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 17 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 5 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots five minutes after Tim knowing "something is wrong"?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else in this timeline to take place as I have broken down the list, by ANYONE or ANY WEAPON. Why? Because there is too much time in between each killing for ANYONE to have done this with ANY WEAPON unless there is more than one killer and the killers were up to something else besides murder.

Why did it take Rodrigez 17 minutes to arrive on the scene?
If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO. __________________

[rusure?]

His cell phone was at the crime scene. All they had to do was look and it would tell them the time of the last call. Mine give me the duration of the call. They did say all cell phone records would be obtained from Verizon.

I think the time line is just about as close and as good as I have ever seen in any case. Thank goodness there was quite a lot of cell phone activity right around the horrible events, both right before and after.

It doesn't take that long to shoot this gun. Seconds each for all the steps for each shot. I think it may have taken the shooter longer to position himself each time to give him a tactical advantage than it did to reload and shoot.

imoo

I am looking forward to the cell phone records. Were they on the last disclosure list? They should have gotten them by now.

[rusure?]

His cell phone was at the crime scene. All they had to do was look and it would tell them the time of the last call. Mine give me the duration of the call. They did say all cell phone records would be obtained from Verizon.

imoo

But didn't LE get the time of the call from Tanya and not the phone?

And what about the time change question I posted? Is there such a time change in Arizona?

[Hawk]

Revised Timeline: iirc
4:20-Tiffany in store
4:45-Tiffany second time in store
4:45-VR recieves call from father
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:10-Kirks called to scene arrive a few minutes later.
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:00 and 5:03 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 17 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 5 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots five minutes after Tim knowing "something is wrong"?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else in this timeline to take place as I have broken down the list, by ANYONE or ANY WEAPON. Why? Because there is too much time in between each killing for ANYONE to have done this with ANY WEAPON unless there is more than one killer and the killers were up to something else besides murder.

Why did it take Rodrigez 17 minutes to arrive on the scene?
If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO. __________________

Detective Neckel said they arrived at approximately 5:09 in her report.

[GentleBreeze]

But didn't LE get the time of the call from Tanya and not the phone?

And what about the time change question I posted? Is there such a time change in Arizona?

I don't think time changes in November, does it? I thought that was in October?

They may have looked at his phone once she gave them the actual time.

imoo

[Hawk]

All of Arizona is on MST.

The times where gotten off Mr. Romans phone.

[GentleBreeze]

Detective Neckel said they arrived at approximately 5:09 in her report.

Rodriquez probably just gave an estimated time.

Were they the first two to arrive? When did the PC come?

imo

[rusure?]

Detective Neckel said they arrived at approximately 5:09 in her report.

She may have, but Rodriguez reported he arrived at 5:20. Hmmm. Wonder if DN's time is 10 minutes off and not the video at the store.

[Hawk]

She may have, but Rodriguez reported he arrived at 5:20. Hmmm. Wonder if DN's time is 10 minutes off and not the video at the store.

Maybe they came in a stretch limo and Rodriguez was sitting in the back.

[rusure?]

I don't think time changes in November, does it? I thought that was in October?

They may have looked at his phone once she gave them the actual time.

imoo

I just checked the disclosure documents and there is nothing about cell phone records in them. I would think if there was anything in them to help the DA's case, they would be listed. They should have gotten them by the disclosure list on the 27th.

[Hawk]

Rodriquez probably just gave an estimated time.

Were they the first two to arrive? When did the PC come?

imo

They were the first to arrive. Medical Emergency Services (the Kirks) arrived shorty after.

[rusure?]

Maybe they came in a stretch limo and Rodriguez was sitting in the back.
:lol:
That's funny. He may have been, cause for some reason I thought he came by himself.

[Hawk]

I just checked the disclosure documents and there is nothing about cell phone records in them. I would think if there was anything in them to help the DA's case, they would be listed. They should have gotten them by the disclosure list on the 27th.

Must be on the Supplemental Report #7 that is missing. Guess it would be pretty private and not made public.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe they came in a stretch limo and Rodriguez was sitting in the back.


Thanks! I just spewed my tea everywhere!:lol::lol:

[rusure?]

Must be on the Supplemental Report #7 that is missing. Guess it would be pretty private and not made public.

Shouldn't be a problem to list: cell phone records of blah blah blah. They could do the list like the search warrant issued. The phone numbers of each person was blacked out.

[GentleBreeze]

Must be on the Supplemental Report #7 that is missing. Guess it would be pretty private and not made public.

I sure hope they would respect everyone's confidentiality.

imoo

[Hawk]

Shouldn't be a problem to list: cell phone records of blah blah blah. They could do the list like the search warrant issued. The phone numbers of each person was blacked out.

I agree. They did that on the first ones with Mr. Romans number and Mr. Romero's, didn't they. But they can't seem to mark the boys name out.
I don't know.

[GentleBreeze]

They were the first to arrive. Medical Emergency Services (the Kirks) arrived shorty after.

Thanks. Boy that had to be tough on the Kirks, I would think. They knew Vinnie and Tiffany, didn't they?

[rusure?]

Thanks. Boy that had to be tough on the Kirks, I would think. They knew Vinnie and Tiffany, didn't they?

I just reread the radio transcript. The dispatcher just told the Kirks there was a man down on the front porch with an unknown problem.

[Hawk]

Thanks. Boy that had to be tough on the Kirks, I would think. They knew Vinnie and Tiffany, didn't they?

I believe so. I can't help but think that's why Sgt. Rodriguez told Mr. Kirk that Mr. Romero was dead and there was no need to check him. They all seemed to be pretty emotional.

[rusure?]

Shoot. I gotta go get some sleep. It's a school night. I'll pick this back up in the morning. See yall.

[Hawk]

I just reread the radio transcript. The dispatcher just told the Kirks there was a man down on the front porch with an unknown problem.


Yeah, remember Sgt. Rodriguez expected a drug overdose (due to the area).

[Hawk]

Shoot. I gotta go get some sleep. It's a school night. I'll pick this back up in the morning. See yall.

Good night. Sleep well.

[GentleBreeze]

Shoot. I gotta go get some sleep. It's a school night. I'll pick this back up in the morning. See yall.

Good night.

Sleep well.

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah, remember Sgt. Rodriguez expected a drug overdose (due to the area).

I think that is what he thought because murder never came to their minds because they just don't have them there.

imoo

[bkwits]

Little boys like to get dirty and sometimes will put on the same pair of clothes. Add 1 hour of play time at school with 2 recesses and a half hour lunch recess. I don't find dirt unusual for a young boy.

The timeline is so narrow for anyone else and only the boy was there for almost 2 hours. I hope the boy gets off with thrapy, but IMO he had motive, opportunity, time, his own weapon, a confession, knowledge of the crime, firearm experience. No other theories presented here make much sense. IMO

It seems that we are getting way too caught up in the minutiae of the postings. When a poster remarked that it was unlikely for a child to walk around the block that many times, I merely said that since his pants were so dirty that Neckel noticed he dirt and didn't even notice the blood, therefore it is feasible that he played some instead of walking around the whole time. I think that most boys would. Or maybe he was soing something or going somewhere that he wasn't allowed.

I did not say that precluded him from doing the shootings.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

I believe so. I can't help but think that's why Sgt. Rodriguez told Mr. Kirk that Mr. Romero was dead and there was no need to check him. They all seemed to be pretty emotional.

Ah, I bet you are right, Hawk.

Yes, they did seem to be very emotional.

imo

[Hawk]

I think we've proven today that we can agree to disagree while maintaining an acceptable level of civility.

What's the keyboard equivalent of biting your tongue?

[Jacobtk]

But now, the video was erased, just oh, hell, it happens. Especially when it is the crucial evidence regarding the alibi of a possible suspect, and neighbor, etc. Because, if there is no video, we can't claim she was at the store the first time, but we can't prove she was not there 2 times also, can we? Strangely, the other evidence regarding the boy were collected (horribly so, if I may add but about that in another post).

Having worked at a place that sells security cameras, it is entirely possible that the system Wilbur's has only records 24-hour intervals, especially if it is an older system. The systems are not cheap and neither are the recorders. Some places can only afford one or two cameras because of the cost. So it is possible that when Neckels returned the next day the video was recorded over. My question is why she did not make a copy of the whole tape.

[Hawk]

I think that is what he thought because murder never came to their minds because they just don't have them there.

imoo

Right. Imagine his surprise. His heart was probably racing when he had to draw his pistol and enter the house. Alone. He knew Mr. Romero and may have expected to find him dead.

[muska]

Wrong team won:scared:

Great game though!! Thought it was going to go into overtime!

[IAMME]

I think we've proven today that we can agree to disagree while maintaining an acceptable level of civility.

What's the keyboard equivalent of biting your tongue?

breaking your fingers?

[muska]

But didn't LE get the time of the call from Tanya and not the phone?

And what about the time change question I posted? Is there such a time change in Arizona?

Eagargal posted that the Navajo Nation is on Daylight Savings time but the rest of Arizona is not.

[bkwits]

I think we've proven today that we can agree to disagree while maintaining an acceptable level of civility.

What's the keyboard equivalent of biting your tongue?

Not many on or lurking tonight. Half the group has been banned it seems.

[eagargal]

But didn't LE get the time of the call from Tanya and not the phone?

And what about the time change question I posted? Is there such a time change in Arizona?

Arizona doesn't practice Daylight Savings Time, with the exception of the Navajo Nation. The San Carlos Apache Nation also doesn't practice DST and is on the same time as SJ.

[secrets]

Having worked at a place that sells security cameras, it is entirely possible that the system Wilbur's has only records 24-hour intervals, especially if it is an older system. The systems are not cheap and neither are the recorders. Some places can only afford one or two cameras because of the cost. So it is possible that when Neckels returned the next day the video was recorded over. My question is why she did not make a copy of the whole tape.

Mine also.

[Jacobtk]

But didn't LE get the time of the call from Tanya and not the phone?

To my knowledge, the time of the calls were not confirmed via any cell phone records before the boy was taken in and interrogated. I do not recall any of the officers stating in their reports that they checked Romans' phone to confirm Tanya's claim that she spoke with him. Perhaps I missed that, but to the best of my knowledge the police simply took Tanya's claim at face value. They did not ask for Tim's phone either. By now they should have the records and one would think that if they confirmed Tanya's claim that the state would have released that information to the public.

[Streetdreamer]

To my knowledge, the time of the calls were not confirmed via any cell phone records before the boy was taken in and interrogated. I do not recall any of the officers stating in their reports that they checked Romans' phone to confirm Tanya's claim that she spoke with him. Perhaps I missed that, but to the best of my knowledge the police simply took Tanya's claim at face value. They did not ask for Tim's phone either. By now they should have the records and one would think that if they confirmed Tanya's claim that the state would have released that information to the public.

Its not the policy of the police to release exculpatory evidence to the public. Even though this probably wont go before a jury, they wont break the habit of attempting to corrupt a jury pool. Incriminating evidence is the only thing released.

[Jacobtk]

[/B]

But it's still a valid point. They couldn't wait to release the 'confession' to the media. It appears a reasonable request to want to know about the cell phone calls. This whole 'timeline' basically stand and falls on the cell phone calls. Before I'd believe anything that is said about what Tanya or anyone else says that happened, I'd want to see what time those calls were made, how long they lasted and what was actually said.

I have major doubts believing what Apache County's DA office says happened in St. John's.

As do I. One would think that the police would check to see if the calls were actually made by checking the phones or the records before bring a child in to be interrogated. I am very curious about what evidence the DA has in the case. The state's expert turning on them and agreeing with the defense's expert is a pretty hard blow. I am, however, more curious as to what the defense has given to the state, if anything. I recall an interview where someone involved in the case stated that Wood and Brewer suspected someone but the person could not elaborate.

[PensiveOne]

All of Arizona is on MST.

The times where gotten off Mr. Romans phone.

They may have gotten the times off of Mr. Romans phone later. However, Tonya had already put the time in her written statement. She would not have seen TR's phone. She probably got it off of her phone.

[rusure?]

I wouldn't have expected the DA's expert to do otherwise. But that's just me.

The cell calls are important. I agree with you. Again. Why wouldn't LE check those cell records out before bringing CR in for the 'confession'?

Brewer and Wood have a suspect? A witness fingered someone?
Where is the interview? Can you remember?

And why aren't the phone records in the disclosure statements, unless they didn't show what the DA wanted them to show.

The whole timeline falls apart if the time of Tim's phone call is not what Tanya said it was. Remember, she has just heard of the death of her husband. IMO, nobody could have an accurate sense of time or timeing at a time like that, no one. Their focus would be directed more towards the news than minute details. IMO

[PensiveOne]

May and probably are not what I'm after. At this point, I'd really like the phone docs. But they won't be released for a while.

I agree, I would like to see them, too.

[rusure?]

They may have gotten the times off of Mr. Romans phone later. However, Tonya had already put the time in her written statement. She would not have seen TR's phone. She probably got it off of her phone.

But the autopsy wasn't done until, what was it,a few days later? She didn't give her "offical" until then. Why didn't LE go to her at the time she was talking to them on the phone to get her "official" statement rather than taking her word for it via phone conversation?

[rusure?]

What is the distance from VR and TR work place to their house? The timeline also hinges on the time it took them to get home. Did they stop off anywhere on the way home?

[PensiveOne]

But the autopsy wasn't done until, what was it,a few days later? She didn't give her "offical" until then. Why didn't LE go to her at the time she was talking to them on the phone to get her "official" statement rather than taking her word for it via phone conversation?

They got her statement the day after the murders at the funeral home. I'll go see if I can find it. It was in one of the reports.

[PensiveOne]

But the autopsy wasn't done until, what was it,a few days later? She didn't give her "offical" until then. Why didn't LE go to her at the time she was talking to them on the phone to get her "official" statement rather than taking her word for it via phone conversation?

Here is the report with Tonya's statement:
http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Hogle.pdf

[muska]

As do I. One would think that the police would check to see if the calls were actually made by checking the phones or the records before bring a child in to be interrogated. I am very curious about what evidence the DA has in the case. The state's expert turning on them and agreeing with the defense's expert is a pretty hard blow. I am, however, more curious as to what the defense has given to the state, if anything. I recall an interview where someone involved in the case stated that Wood and Brewer suspected someone but the person could not elaborate.

You may be thinking of the statement by Mara Siegel, Maricopa County Deputy Juvenile Public defender. She said something, back in November, about there being reason to believe the boy was not the shooter but she could not talk about it. She was providing assistance to Brewer at the time and maybe still is. She was quoted in Laurie Roberts (Arizona Republic) editorial "Taking candy from a baby: the confession of an 8 year old."

[muska]

What is the distance from VR and TR work place to their house? The timeline also hinges on the time it took them to get home. Did they stop off anywhere on the way home?

Didn't they get out at 4:30? Does anyone remember what time they were seen from Wilbur's parking lot? I remember someone waved to them. Five or ten minutes could make a big difference.

[muska]

Can you remember a link? This is really interesting.

Here is the link:

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/39742

She has had several very interesting editorials about this case.

[rusure?]

I'm going to go and read Tanya's statement shortly but I think we agree that there's something 'smelling'. I think that's fair. I want to read the phone docs.

The report makes me think she did not give her statement until afterpm 1500 hours (4 pm) on the sixth. The police had already arrested the boy. Then according to the report she and Tim's mother were taken to a room and they talked. They were upset initially before the statement because they wanted to see the body. But, after talking in the room, they left. Did they not want to see the body?

Also, Tanya also said they needed to talk to the coworkers. She didn't just hone in on the boy.

[muska]

Here's an article about an 8 year old girl who was shot in the head by her 10 year old brother over the weekend. They were struggling over a pistol taken from a relative's home. As long as people refuse to lock up their guns, these tragedies will continue.

http://www.chroniclet.com/2009/02/02/8-year-old-girl-shot-in-head-by-brother_122/

[Kara]

Revised Timeline: iirc
4:20-Tiffany in store
4:45-Tiffany second time in store
4:45-VR recieves call from father
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:10-Kirks called to scene arrive a few minutes later.
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:00 and 5:03 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 17 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 5 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots five minutes after Tim knowing "something is wrong"?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else in this timeline to take place as I have broken down the list, by ANYONE or ANY WEAPON. Why? Because there is too much time in between each killing for ANYONE to have done this with ANY WEAPON unless there is more than one killer and the killers were up to something else besides murder.

Why did it take Rodrigez 17 minutes to arrive on the scene?
If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO. __________________Is 4:45 the time on the recept from the grocery store? If so that would be the time she is leaving and the Napa store is less than 200 feet away from the grocery store, isn't it? Did it really take Tiffany almost 30 minutes to get from one store to the next and accomplish her purchase of pants? And why didn't she answer the first phone call from the boy???

[muska]

The report makes me think she did not give her statement until afterpm 1500 hours (4 pm) on the sixth. The police had already arrested the boy. Then according to the report she and Tim's mother were taken to a room and they talked. They were upset initially before the statement because they wanted to see the body. But, after talking in the room, they left. Did they not want to see the body?

Also, Tanya also said they needed to talk to the coworkers. She didn't just hone in on the boy.

I am not sure of the exact time that Tanya wrote out her witness report but the boy had already been arrested. They were interrogating him based on similar statements she made to Rodriquez the night before. IMO they had decided he was the shooter before they brought him in for questioning.

It is sad that St Johns police have given the benefit of doubt to most if not all adults involved but none to an 8 year old. It seems like they were able to accept every adult inconsistency but none from a child.
IMO This is completely evident from the way the chief called his officers back to the station as soon as the boy "confessed." There is no way I will be convinced a fair investigation happened after that. St Johns police and the DA were done..........they already had their man.

[muska]

Is 4:45 the time on the recept from the grocery store? If so that would be the time she is leaving and the Napa store is less than 200 feet away from the grocery store, isn't it? Did it really take Tiffany almost 30 minutes to get from one store to the next and accomplish her purchase of pants? And why didn't she answer the first phone call from the boy???

Neckels said the time was about 4:45. Someone posted (I think JD) that the exact time was 4:43 but I don't know if that's definite either.

Did VR and TR get out of work at 4:30? Does anyone know what time they were seen from the Wilbur's parking lot. I remember someone waved to them.

[Kara]

Neckels said the time was about 4:45. Someone posted (I think JD) that the exact time was 4:43 but I don't know if that's definite either.

Did VR and TR get out of work at 4:30? Does anyone know what time they were seen from the Wilbur's parking lot. I remember someone waved to them.I don't remember Vincent and Tim being seen at Wilbur's.:confused:

[GentleBreeze]

Is 4:45 the time on the recept from the grocery store? If so that would be the time she is leaving and the Napa store is less than 200 feet away from the grocery store, isn't it? Did it really take Tiffany almost 30 minutes to get from one store to the next and accomplish her purchase of pants? And why didn't she answer the first phone call from the boy???

And she was talking to the Kirks too.

Then the emergency call came in and they had to leave.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Neckels said the time was about 4:45. Someone posted (I think JD) that the exact time was 4:43 but I don't know if that's definite either.

Did VR and TR get out of work at 4:30? Does anyone know what time they were seen from the Wilbur's parking lot. I remember someone waved to them.

I cant remember where I read that either, Muska, but I do seem to remember that someone saw them when they were heading home and waved as they went by them.

Also Tiffany said her father called Vinnie about 15 minutes after she had talked with her husband.

I think it was stated in one of the transcripts that Vinnie and Tim usually got off around 4:30 everyday.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

The report makes me think she did not give her statement until afterpm 1500 hours (4 pm) on the sixth. The police had already arrested the boy. Then according to the report she and Tim's mother were taken to a room and they talked. They were upset initially before the statement because they wanted to see the body. But, after talking in the room, they left. Did they not want to see the body?

Also, Tanya also said they needed to talk to the coworkers. She didn't just hone in on the boy.

She had not given her written statement because she first made them aware of the conversation while being on the phone with LE in the early morning hours of the 6th. She and her family had to come 170 miles to St. John and I am sure they went directly to the funeral home that was holding the bodies until they could be autopsied and there she told the officer again.

Family members aren't allowed to see the bodies if the police is there guarding the bodies, waiting for them to be transported, I wouldn't think.

She never accused this boy of doing anything wrong. She just wanted them to know that he was there when something bad happened and they needed to talk to him about it. I think at the time she thought he was an eye witness not the suspect.

imo

[muska]

I don't remember Vincent and Tim being seen at Wilbur's.:confused:

I went back and found it in Womack's report. Kevin Phipps said that VR and TR passed by and waved while he was at Circle K. He called his wife from Circle K at 4:39 and then went into Wilburs. He is the one who reported being at Wilburs and seeing other employees there at
5:04. So anyway, it souds like VR and TR passed by at about 4:39. If so, they could have been home earlier than the time line now suggests...unless they stopped somewhere else but that seems unlikely.

[muska]

From the Womack report:

A co-worker told Womack that VR kept his rifles in a the living room in hard shelled cases. He said he had been to VR's house and VR had shown them to him. (Mark Mercer) So I wonder why many seem to be so sure that the guns were kept upstairs under the bed. It seems they were kept in different places.....no reason not to believe the co-worker.

Perhaps one or more was out and available to an intruder that day.

[rusure?]

She had not given her written statement because she first made them aware of the conversation while being on the phone with LE in the early morning hours of the 6th. She and her family had to come 170 miles to St. John and I am sure they went directly to the funeral home that was holding the bodies until they could be autopsied and there she told the officer again.

Family members aren't allowed to see the bodies if the police is there guarding the bodies, waiting for them to be transported, I wouldn't think.

She never accused this boy of doing anything wrong. She just wanted them to know that he was there when something bad happened and they needed to talk to him about it. I think at the time she thought he was an eye witness not the suspect.

imo

She also told LE that Tim was having problems with Navahos at work. So did other people who were questioned.

She also gave 2 different accounts re the boy's voice:

Per Hogle’s report:
Tanya talked to Rodrigez on the phone and Rodrigez told Hogle what Tanya said: “Mrs. Romans said as she was speaking with her husband she heard a little boy's voice in the background telling Tim he needed to come into the house right now. Mrs. Ramans informed me she asked Tim who that was. She said Tim told her it was *******, and ‘he wants me to come into the house right now'. Mrs. Romans said her husband told her something was wrong and that he had to go. She said Tim told hee he wou1d call her back in a little bit.”

Per Jones' report:
“Sergeant Rodriguez informed me that Mrs. Romans indicated she had spoken to her husband on the day he was killed at the time he was said to have been killed. She told him he and Vincent Romero had just parked at the their house and Vincent had gone inside. She said Tim was in the truck speaking to her on his cell phone. Mrs. Romans told Sergeant Rodriguez she could hear a boy's voice yelling for Tim to hurry and come inside, that something was wrong and he needed to come quickly. Sergeant Rodriguez said Mrs. Romans said she had visited her husband in St. Johns and recognized the voice as belonging to Vincent's son, *********.”


Now, which is correct?

[muska]

She also told LE that Tim was having problems with Navahos at work. So did other people who were questioned.

She also gave 2 different accounts re the boy's voice:

Per Hogle’s report:
Tanya talked to Rodrigez on the phone and Rodrigez told Hogle what Tanya said: “Mrs. Romans said as she was speaking with her husband she heard a little boy's voice in the background telling Tim he needed to come into the house right now. Mrs. Ramans informed me she asked Tim who that was. She said Tim told her it was *******, and ‘he wants me to come into the house right now'. Mrs. Romans said her husband told her something was wrong and that he had to go. She said Tim told hee he wou1d call her back in a little bit.”

Per Jones' report:
“Sergeant Rodriguez informed me that Mrs. Romans indicated she had spoken to her husband on the day he was killed at the time he was said to have been killed. She told him he and Vincent Romero had just parked at the their house and Vincent had gone inside. She said Tim was in the truck speaking to her on his cell phone. Mrs. Romans told Sergeant Rodriguez she could hear a boy's voice yelling for Tim to hurry and come inside, that something was wrong and he needed to come quickly. Sergeant Rodriguez said Mrs. Romans said she had visited her husband in St. Johns and recognized the voice as belonging to Vincent's son, *********.”


Now, which is correct?

So in the first interview she didn't know whose voice she had heard and in the second one she did. Good Find!! Lots of inconsistencies.....on everyone's parts.

[Hawk]

I am not sure of the exact time that Tanya wrote out her witness report but the boy had already been arrested. They were interrogating him based on similar statements she made to Rodriquez the night before. IMO they had decided he was the shooter before they brought him in for questioning.

It is sad that St Johns police have given the benefit of doubt to most if not all adults involved but none to an 8 year old. It seems like they were able to accept every adult inconsistency but none from a child.
IMO This is completely evident from the way the chief called his officers back to the station as soon as the boy "confessed." There is no way I will be convinced a fair investigation happened after that. St Johns police and the DA were done..........they already had their man.

Well, you should know when Mrs. Romans wrote her witness statement. So should everyone else. Like so many of these official documents the pertinent information regarding who, what, and when, are left blank. They should have been rejected by the in-charge officer, Oh, I forgot, the in-charge officer was the one who took it from her.

[Hawk]

They may have gotten the times off of Mr. Romans phone later. However, Tonya had already put the time in her written statement. She would not have seen TR's phone. She probably got it off of her phone.


They had the phone in their hands. It would've taken 5 seconds to see who the last call came from. USE REDIAL! At least Mrs. Romans would not have been forced to wait 11 hours to find out her husband was dead. She may even have had relevant information about a suspect (other than the boy) to tell the cops. They didn't know.
Like we talked about before, what if there had been a threatening voicemail from a potential killer that needed immediate attention?

[muska]

Also from Womack's report -

Womack asks Misty if her old boyfried, JR, knew TR. Misty says he didn't. Later, Dana tells Womack that Misty has a "psycho boyfriend."
Why did Womack bring up and ask about the boyfriend? Did he know of a "psycho boyfriend" and have enough concern to ask right away? Maybe this person found out about TR and wasn't real happy with that.

Mark Mercer says TR kept two guns in his truck (44 mag cylinder pistol, 40 caliber semi-automatic pistol). Dana seems uncertain but says TR kept one behind the front seat.

TR had plenty of money on him so why wasn't he paying his $50 rent? Probably not important but kind of curious.

[rusure?]

Well, you should know when Mrs. Romans wrote her witness statement. So should everyone else. Like so many of these official documents the pertinent information regarding who, what, and when, are left blank. They should have been rejected by the in-charge officer, Oh, I forgot, the in-charge officer was the one who took it from her.

According to Hogle's report, it was after 1500.

[GentleBreeze]

She also told LE that Tim was having problems with Navahos at work. So did other people who were questioned.

She also gave 2 different accounts re the boy's voice:

Per Hogle’s report:
Tanya talked to Rodrigez on the phone and Rodrigez told HogleRodriguez what Tanya said: “Mrs. Romans said as she was speaking with her husband she heard a little boy's voice in the background telling Tim he needed to come into the house right now. Mrs. Ramans informed me she asked Tim who that was. She said Tim told her it was *******, and ‘he wants me to come into the house right now'. Mrs. Romans said her husband told her something was wrong and that he had to go. She said Tim told hee he wou1d call her back in a little bit.”

Per Jones' report:
“Sergeant Rodriguez informed me that Mrs. Romans indicated she had spoken to her husband on the day he was killed at the time he was said to have been killed. She told him he and Vincent Romero had just parked at the their house and Vincent had gone inside. She said Tim was in the truck speaking to her on his cell phone. Mrs. Romans told Sergeant Rodriguez she could hear a boy's voice yelling for Tim to hurry and come inside, that something was wrong and he needed to come quickly. Sergeant Rodriguez said Mrs. Romans said she had visited her husband in St. Johns and recognized the voice as belonging to Vincent's son, *********.”


Now, which is correct?

This looks to me to be the interpretations of Hoyle and Rodriguez of what was said. True translation can be skewed when telling one person and the another person telling someone else after then.

Do we have her actual written statement?

To me it isn't odd that different interpretations will be given by two different people.

What is much more important is that she did tell them of the conversation immediately and they will have the cell records of when that call happened and ended. It shows that Tim was very much alive at 4:55 if that time is verified to be accurate, and I think it will.

LE will be able to link all the cell phone calls together along with witnesses.

They will have the cell phone records.

1. Viinie's cell records
2. Tim's cell records
3. Vinnie's father in law cell records
4. Tanya's cell phone records.
5. Tiffany's cell phone records.
6. Davis boy's record when he called his father to come home.
7. Sr. Davis cell phone records of call he placed at 5:03 after coming home and finding Tim on the porch.

And the records of anyone else, if they found that other calls had been placed or tried to be placed to these two men around the time of the murders.

imoo

[Hawk]

According to Hogle's report, it was after 1500.

If Mr. Romans and Mr. Romero were seen at the Circle K on Commercial Street in St. Johns that's 1.5 miles from the residence. They would have gone straight down Cleveland, past the grocery store and NAPA then turned right on North 13th Street to go home. They would have also passed White Mountain Physical Therapy.

If someone was watching for them they would have been easily spotted.

[GentleBreeze]

They had the phone in their hands. It would've taken 5 seconds to see who the last call came from. USE REDIAL! At least Mrs. Romans would not have been forced to wait 11 hours to find out her husband was dead. She may even have had relevant information about a suspect (other than the boy) to tell the cops. They didn't know.
Like we talked about before, what if there had been a threatening voicemail from a potential killer that needed immediate attention?

I couldn't understand why they took the time to go all the way to San Carlos to tell Tim's mother yet did not travel onto Mesa to tell Tanya and the children, face to face, the horrible news.

Maybe they were exhausted by then and had probably been up all night but it sure seems a strange way to tell someone that their husband and father had been murdered.

imo

[Hawk]

I couldn't understand why they took the time to go all the way to San Carlos to tell Tim's mother yet did not travel onto Mesa to tell Tanya and the children, face to face, the horrible news.

Maybe they were exhausted by then and had probably been up all night but it sure seems a strange way to tell someone that their husband and father had been murdered.

imo

My guess is they were hunting for suspects. The victim was secondary. They could have had a local state officer talk to Mrs. Romans earlier though.

[muska]

This looks to me to be the interpretations of Hoyle and Rodriguez of what was said. True translation can be skewed when telling one person and the another person telling someone else after then.

Do we have her actual written statement?

To me it isn't odd that different interpretations will be given by two different people.

What is much more important is that she did tell them of the conversation immediately and they will have the cell records of when that call happened and ended. It shows that Tim was very much alive at 4:55 if that time is verified to be accurate, and I think it will.

LE will be able to link all the cell phone calls together along with witnesses.

They will have the cell phone records.

1. Viinie's cell records
2. Tim's cell records
3. Vinnie's father in law cell records
4. Tanya's cell phone records.
5. Tiffany's cell phone records.
6. Davis boy's record when he called his father to come home.
7. Sr. Davis cell phone records of call he placed at 5:03 after coming home and finding Tim on the porch.

And the records of anyone else, if they found that other calls had been placed or tried to be placed to these two men around the time of the murders.

imoo

The two statements also suggest that Tanya may not have been sure of whose voice she heard.

[dgfred]

She did have a receipt, she was seen on video, she did run into and talk with EMT's, she did go to buy her husband stuff, she did buy donuts.

IMO Tiffany's alibi is rock solid and backed up by physical evidence and witnesses.


Maybe a little too solid :unsure: . She really didn't have to be at the scene to play a large part in the crime right?

[Hawk]

The two statements also suggest that Tanya may not have been sure of whose voice she heard.

She heard what she heard. There's no reason for her to lie. She claims that Mr. Romans identified the boy by name. Unless he lied to her, for whatever reason, the statement holds merit.
I can't see how she could identify his voice on her own, though.

[GentleBreeze]

The two statements also suggest that Tanya may not have been sure of whose voice she heard.

What is totally consistent though is she mentioned this boy right away.

IMO she had nothing against this boy at the time.

But I do think she thought he was an eye witness to the crime.

imoo

[muska]

If Mr. Romans and Mr. Romero were seen at the Circle K on Commercial Street in St. Johns that's 1.5 miles from the residence. They would have gone straight down Cleveland, past the grocery store and NAPA then turned right on North 13th Street to go home. They would have also passed White Mountain Physical Therapy.

If someone was watching for them they would have been easily spotted.

There are scenarios beside the boy as the shooter that work. If the child could be the shooter so could some unknown adult. The child could have walked in immediately after the shootings as he at first said, just as a small white car was leaving. There is nothing about the timeline that makes this impossible.

[GentleBreeze]

Maybe a little too solid :unsure: . She really didn't have to be at the scene to play a large part in the crime right?

Why is it too solid? Many women multi-task and are out and about running here and yon, doing errands. :confused: Sounds like a typical mundane, ordinary day for Tiff before she learned her husband and Tim had been murdered.

imo

[muska]

My guess is they were hunting for suspects. The victim was secondary. They could have had a local state officer talk to Mrs. Romans earlier though.

If they were hunting for suspects, you would think they would have continued on to see Tanya. The police usually, it seems, want to speak with spouses as quickly as possible.

[dgfred]

The meat was there from the store that Tiffany had just come from. She put Nelly in the Jeep with the meat when she got to the house and found our her husband and Tim had been murdered. Nelly was prob in the Jeep for quite awhile. Tiff and the child went to a neighbors and were interviewed by Avila. Later the child was taken to his grandma's. I think (but am not sure) that the dog stayed with Tiffany.

IMO

How would the meat go bad so fast? What, was it like 100 degrees in the car?

[rusure?]

She heard what she heard. There's no reason for her to lie. She claims that Mr. Romans identified the boy by name. Unless he lied to her, for whatever reason, the statement holds merit.
I can't see how she could identify his voice on her own, though.

And I would think that one report that said she said she asked who the voice was and the other report says she knew who's voice it was. Big world of difference.

[muska]

What is totally consistent though is she mentioned this boy right away.

IMO she had nothing against this boy at the time.

But I do think she thought he was an eye witness to the crime.

imoo

But in one statement she asks who that is.....she isn't sure.

[rusure?]

If they were hunting for suspects, you would think they would have continued on to see Tanya. The police usually, it seems, want to speak with spouses as quickly as possible.

Homicide Investigation 101
And they certainly would notify the victim's spouse by phone.

[rusure?]

How would the meat go bad so fast? What, was it like 100 degrees in the car?

If the sun is shinning and the windows aren't down, it can get quite warm, unless its below 40 degrees outside. There are days when outside temp is in the 50's and I don't have to turn heat on in the car for a while because it's warm in the car. Meat has to stay pretty cold to keep from going bad.

I don't see how the dog didn't get into it while it was in the car.

[GentleBreeze]

There are scenarios beside the boy as the shooter that work. If the child could be the shooter so could some unknown adult. The child could have walked in immediately after the shootings as he at first said, just as a small white car was leaving. There is nothing about the timeline that makes this impossible.

To me the time line is impossible for him to do anything he said he did that day. No time for him to come walking up the street casually. No time to put his book bag under the table or sit by his father's side.

There wasn't time for anything except once the shooter knew they were both dead but to leave the gun on the cage and get the heck out of there and run to the neighbors.

But there is plenty of unaccounted time that shows he could have been in the home waiting for Vinnie to walk in that door. Plenty of time to get the weapon and the bullets and wait.

JMO of course

[denisel]

Maybe a little too solid :unsure: . She really didn't have to be at the scene to play a large part in the crime right?

I also think it is rock solid.

However, the boy's story is pretty unbelieveable.

I checked Saint Johns Unified School District website this morning to see times that K-3 get out of school. No luck. So I called Coronado Elementary School and spoke to the office secretary, Ms Hooe. She said k-1 gets out at 2:15 and grades 2-3 get out at 2:20. Then I asked about bus times. She connected me with the "bus barn". I guess it's their transporatation dept. for the Unified school. I was advised that the driver for that route is a MS Hawes. The neighborhood in question drops off K-3 from 2:45 to 3pm (which is much earlier than I realized). Now the boy told police he walked around the block. If you are to believe the boy's story that would mean he would have had to walk 2 hours or 2 hours and 15 minutes, which I find unrealistic. I don't know if I can walk 2 hours. Also I find it unrealistic that none of the other children or parents have come forward to say they saw the boy. I also checked weather for Nov. 5th. The high was 48 degrees but it was a windy day with gusts to 33mph. From 3-5pm the temperature surely dropped a little. That's pretty cold for a boy to walk 2 hours. Either way that's 2 hours of unaccounted for time, with no verifiable alibi. And why he chose this day to walk as opposed to any other day is beyond me. Not that I'm a highly suspicious person, but the boy's story makes no sense. Anyway my 2 cents worth. JMO

[rusure?]

OK guys. Revised timeline.

2nd revised Timeline:

4:20-approximate time coworker says TR and VR left work (could be 4:25)
4:27-VR calls Tiffany and tells her he is on his way home from work
4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K
4:42-approximate time Tiffany’s father talked to VR
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 or 4 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teen’s dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans body
5:09-DN and Rodrigez arrives at the scene, speak to the boy, the 911 caller and another unknown man. Rodrigez enters house, EMT arrive during this time per DN’s report
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA and tells her he “saw his dad dead”
5:15-approximately per Melnick’s report. DN calls Chief Melnick. EMT’s already there.
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

[muska]

She heard what she heard. There's no reason for her to lie. She claims that Mr. Romans identified the boy by name. Unless he lied to her, for whatever reason, the statement holds merit.
I can't see how she could identify his voice on her own, though.

I think that when in traumatic situations, people make all kinds of mistakes about what they think they have seen and/or heard....even when the situations are far less traumatic than this one. How accurate is her memory about what she heard? If her memory is going to be used to convict an 8 year old child of a double murder, it better be pretty much infallible.

[muska]

How would the meat go bad so fast? What, was it like 100 degrees in the car?

It was about 50 degrees outside.

[Kara]

I went back and found it in Womack's report. Kevin Phipps said that VR and TR passed by and waved while he was at Circle K. He called his wife from Circle K at 4:39 and then went into Wilburs. He is the one who reported being at Wilburs and seeing other employees there at
5:04. So anyway, it souds like VR and TR passed by at about 4:39. If so, they could have been home earlier than the time line now suggests...unless they stopped somewhere else but that seems unlikely.
Hmmmmm.....I'm not sure what that means but it's interesting....

[denisel]

It was about 50 degrees outside.

Wasn't it like 2-3 days later when Neckles came back?
I would think meat would spoil in that time.

[Hawk]

There are scenarios beside the boy as the shooter that work. If the child could be the shooter so could some unknown adult. The child could have walked in immediately after the shootings as he at first said, just as a small white car was leaving. There is nothing about the timeline that makes this impossible.

I was giving some ammo to the Tiffany crowd. She could have seen the men pass down Cleveland Street, had she been waiting.

[GentleBreeze]

I also think it is rock solid.

However, the boy's story is pretty unbelievable.

I checked Saint Johns Unified School District website this morning to see times that K-3 get out of school. No luck. So I called Coronado Elementary School and spoke to the office secretary, Ms Hooe. She said k-1 gets out at 2:15 and grades 2-3 get out at 2:20. Then I asked about bus times. She connected me with the "bus barn". I guess it's their transportation dept. for the Unified school. I was advised that the driver for that route is a MS Hawes. The neighborhood in question drops off K-3 from 2:45 to 3pm (which is much earlier than I realized). Now the boy told police he walked around the block. If you are to believe the boy's story that would mean he would have had to walk 2 hours or 2 hours and 15 minutes, which I find unrealistic. I don't know if I can walk 2 hours. Also I find it unrealistic that none of the other children or parents have come forward to say they saw the boy. I also checked weather for Nov. 5th. The high was 48 degrees but it was a windy day with gusts to 33mph. From 3-5pm the temperature surely dropped a little. That's pretty cold for a boy to walk 2 hours. Either way that's 2 hours of unaccounted for time, with no verifiable alibi. And why he chose this day to walk as opposed to any other day is beyond me. Not that I'm a highly suspicious person, but the boy's story makes no sense. Anyway my 2 cents worth. JMO

Thank you for taking your time to call.

WOW even more unaccounted for time.

I have always thought the story about walking around the block was just a made up tale. It makes no sense and no sense that no one at all would see him making countless rounds around the block. It was like he was invisible. He said he saw Cage and waved but Cage never sees him? Never sees him at all, yet he says he continues to walk around and around. If he was just killing time then why not go over to Cage and talk with him? He had nothing else to do, he implies.

I don't think he walked around that block and that is why he wasn't seen. I think he went home when getting off the bus and gathered what he needed. Then he may have taken his book bag out in the kitchen and wrote his story of "My family" writing it at the table while he waited.

The transcripts state that Vinnie and Tim got off work everyday around 4:30 so this boy would be very well aware of that and when his dad would usually be arriving.

imoo

[rusure?]

I just inserted 4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K in the revised timeline above.

[muska]

To me the time line is impossible for him to do anything he said he did that day. No time for him to come walking up the street casually. No time to put his book bag under the table or sit by his father's side.

There wasn't time for anything except once the shooter knew they were both dead but to leave the gun on the cage and get the heck out of there and run to the neighbors.

But there is plenty of unaccounted time that shows he could have been in the home waiting for Vinnie to walk in that door. Plenty of time to get the weapon and the bullets and wait.

JMO of course

He could easily have walked casually down the road and thrown his backpack under the table. The kid had little sense of time - he said his step-mother would be home at 5 and that was 3 or 4 hours away. Maybe he couldn't even tell time. But the "confession" is out anyway and I personally do not think there is any way of knowing what is or is not true in it. The boy, IMO, was just making "nice converstion." I think that any number of people could have been the shooter. There just isn't anything that rules out other possibilities.

[Crispy]

Does anybody remember anything about a Western Union receipt? It's included in the states 2nd disclosure. That is the one with all of the personal items on it, but it doesn't list a receipt in their things. Also there is a check in/out Stonestreet Thomas M. listed in what looks like VR's things.

[muska]

I also think it is rock solid.

However, the boy's story is pretty unbelieveable.

I checked Saint Johns Unified School District website this morning to see times that K-3 get out of school. No luck. So I called Coronado Elementary School and spoke to the office secretary, Ms Hooe. She said k-1 gets out at 2:15 and grades 2-3 get out at 2:20. Then I asked about bus times. She connected me with the "bus barn". I guess it's their transporatation dept. for the Unified school. I was advised that the driver for that route is a MS Hawes. The neighborhood in question drops off K-3 from 2:45 to 3pm (which is much earlier than I realized). Now the boy told police he walked around the block. If you are to believe the boy's story that would mean he would have had to walk 2 hours or 2 hours and 15 minutes, which I find unrealistic. I don't know if I can walk 2 hours. Also I find it unrealistic that none of the other children or parents have come forward to say they saw the boy. I also checked weather for Nov. 5th. The high was 48 degrees but it was a windy day with gusts to 33mph. From 3-5pm the temperature surely dropped a little. That's pretty cold for a boy to walk 2 hours. Either way that's 2 hours of unaccounted for time, with no verifiable alibi. And why he chose this day to walk as opposed to any other day is beyond me. Not that I'm a highly suspicious person, but the boy's story makes no sense. Anyway my 2 cents worth. JMO

He didn't choose just this day. He said he did this occasionally on Wednesdays and Fridays because those were the days his step-mother go home late.

[rusure?]

Does anyone know what Tiffany's dad talked about to VR?

[Aradia5]

I just inserted 4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K in the revised timeline above.

How far from there home?