2/1-

[Jacobtk]

You're wrong. He's 8

The boy's age actually excludes him from a host of diagnoses. For example, a person will not be labeled a sociopath, psychopath or pedophile until the person is at least 16 to 18 because a lot of the factors associated with those mentalities are very common and it is easy to misdiagnose someone. Iamme is correct that a psychopath's behavior would be noticed by those around the person. Individuals who display such characteristics engage in a host of activities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Childhood_precursors) that would be noticed by someone. That those close to the boy apparently saw none of these actions undermines the claim that he is a psychopath.

[IAMME]

I know children, even young children can contemplate suicide.

I am asking you why you believe this boy would considered it.

I dont beleive this child was a risk to hisself d/t suicide. And I dont beleive the court did either, I do beleive they thought he was at risk, and that he could by his actions put hisself at greater risk. IMO

[rusure?]

I know children, even young children can contemplate suicide.

I am asking you why you believe this boy would considered it.

Did you read the article? He was arrested. I don't know for a fact he is contemplating it, but the court found he could be a danger to himself.
I have not met the child to make an assesment as to his mental state.

FYI IED source: DSM-IV TR
Page 666- "Purposeful behavior is distinguished from Intermittent Explosive Disorder by the presence of motivatoin and gain in the aggressive act. In forensic settings, individuals may malinger Intermittent Explosive Disorder to avoid responsibility for their behavior. Anger as a normal reactoin to specific life events or environmental situations also needs to be distinguished from the anger that may occur as part of an aggressive episode in Intermittent Explosive Disorder, which occurs with little or no provocation."

Bold is from the source text.

This child does not fit IED.

[FDInLaw]

Does anyoone know when the child made this statement? Before or after the murders???

Quote:
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html



TIA!

[Hawk]

Does anyoone know when the child made this statement? Before or after the murders???

Quote:
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html



TIA!

That was claimed to have been said after the arrest and before the first hearing.

[FDInLaw]

That was claimed to have been said after the arrest and before the first hearing.
Thank you! That's a big help! back to CL. . .

[rusure?]

Does anyoone know when the child made this statement? Before or after the murders???

Quote:
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html



TIA!

Someone claimed he said it to a CPS worker, but it has not been verified to the public.

[IAMME]

Does anyoone know when the child made this statement? Before or after the murders???

Quote:
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html



TIA!

The prosecuter has said he does not know of any such statement being made, I beleive that was in the response to brewer asking to have the "confession" and search warrants tossed.....

So do we believe him when he requested the warrant or in his later filings? I am not sure that statement was ever made :confused:

[IAMME]

We aren't discussing psychopathy.

Actually I think we were...What else would you label IED, and children contemplating suicide and this childs alleged feelings of guilt and/or remorse vs. him having a mental illness?

[Hawk]

It was used to obtain a warrant. The kid said it.

imo

Isn't that when he asked, "Don't you want to know why I did it?"

[IAMME]

It was used to obtain a warrant. The kid said it.

imo


And the pros. stated later they knew of no such statement....So how are you so sure he said it?

[FDInLaw]

Someone claimed he said it to a CPS worker, but it has not been verified to the public.
But it was okay to release this to the media. . . nice. This sort of thing doesn't prejudice the public at all. :rolleyes:


IMO

[FDInLaw]

And the pros. stated later they knew of no such statement....So how are you so sure he said it?Do you have a link for this handy? I'd like to read up on it if you do. TIA

[Jacobtk]

We aren't discussing psychopathy.

The point is that any disorder the boy might have would be noticeable to those closest to him. His teachers, his priest, friends of the family, etc would mention it. Like some of the others here, I know and I live with children and adults who have personality disorders, so I am familiar with how obvious the behavior would be, especially with a child the boy's age.

Given what little we know about the boy's general personality, I think it is unwise to jump to conclusions about his mental health.

[IAMME]

Do you have a link for this handy? I'd like to read up on it if you do. TIA

IIRC it is in the motion that pros filed in response to brewers request to have the confession and warrants tossed....but i may be mistaken....It is def. somewhere on the courts website...in the filings somewhere.

[IAMME]

The point is that any disorder the boy might have would be noticeable to those closest to him. His teachers, his priest, friends of the family, etc would mention it. Like some of the others here, I know and I live with children and adults who have personality disorders, so I am familiar with how obvious the behavior would be, especially with a child the boy's age.

Given what little we know about the boy's general personality, I think it is unwise to jump to conclusions about his mental health.

Very well said.

[FDInLaw]

IIRC it is in the motion that pros filed in response to brewers request to have the confession and warrants tossed....but i may be mistaken....It is def. somewhere on the courts website...in the filings somewhere.I'll look for it! Thanks!

[IAMME]

There was a signed sworn affidavit by the social worker.

The search didn't yield any such written documentation. The boy LIED, he kept no tally. Why would the prosecution be aware?

Good point, I keep forgetting how completely oblivious he is.....IMO of course.

[PensiveOne]

Someone was asking earlier about his friends. In this article if you go to the very bottom they talked to two of his friends, ages 11 & 12.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20081113/ZNYT02/811133008/1002/NEWS?Title=Mother_Baffled_in_Arizona_Murders

[Jacobtk]

Isn't that when he asked, "Don't you want to know why I did it?"

To whom did he state that? It should also be known that all those are unverified statements gathered by the police after they arrested and charged the boy. The statements cannot be trusted until they are confirmed by the people who the police claim made them that those are in fact their words.

[Crispy]

I'll look for it! Thanks!


http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20 STATEMENTS.pdf

There you go!

[Crispy]

see post #599

His own grandmother had no problem believing this child was capable of murder

The grandmother also says that Tiffany suspected the boy that night.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/melnick.pdf


Would love to see the grandparents statement so she could finish that conversation

[Hawk]

To whom did he state that? It should also be known that all those are unverified statements gathered by the police after they arrested and charged the boy. The statements cannot be trusted until they are confirmed by the people who the police claim made them that those are in fact their words.


That was the question that preceded the '1000 spanking would be my limit statement'.

I thought the statement is in an affidavit signed by the officer.

[Jacobtk]

That was the question that preceded the '1000 spanking would be my limit statement'.

I thought the statement is in an affidavit signed by the officer.

I recall the part about the spankings, but not the other statement. Either way, even if the boy actually said those things (which I do not believe at all), the statements were illegally obtained because the boy's attorneys were not notified that their client was being questioned. I think that combined with the absence of any list are fairly good grounds to dismiss the CPS worker's claims (and also grounds to potentially charge her with making a false statement).

[Hawk]

You and me both!!!

There's got to be a really good reason for her to suspect the boy.

She knows him as well as, or better, than anyone. Better than the mom or step-mom.
Grandpa knows him, too.

[Crispy]

She knows him as well as, or better, than anyone. Better than the mom or step-mom.
Grandpa knows him, too.


She said they were too hard on him and then she stopped. Why didn't the grandpa speak up instead of just telling grandma to? What do you think she was gonna say?

[Hawk]

I recall the part about the spankings, but not the other statement. Either way, even if the boy actually said those things (which I do not believe at all), the statements were illegally obtained because the boy's attorneys were not notified that their client was being questioned. I think that combined with the absence of any list are fairly good grounds to dismiss the CPS worker's claims (and also grounds to potentially charge her with making a false statement).

It isn't a matter of legality. The prosecutor said he won't use it. It's a matter of what the boy said.
Now the CPS workers are liars.

[Hawk]

St. Johns AZ must be the liars capitol of the world;

The boy.
The cops.
The CPS workers.
The step-mom.
Mrs. Romans.
The witnesses.
The prosecutor.
Only truth teller in Apache County is Mr. Brewer, and he didn't witness anything.

[Hawk]

I wouldn't have left until I pulled old gramps aside and learned what he thought!

If I had a choice of speaking candidly to anyone there, it'd be Mr. Leroy Romero. I have no doubt he knows what happened and by whom.
Would like to talk to the boy, but he's first on the lairs list.

[Aradia5]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20 STATEMENTS.pdf

There you go!

Is that what they call hearsay? The CPS workers tip to police I mean?

[GentleBreeze]

Yep!

Also considering the boys grandmother knew him well...and she had a feeling he did it the night he spent cuddled up next to her. She wasn't even surprised when she learned they were going to arrest the boy.



That speaks volumes to me!

It speaks volumes to me too and the statement she made was so empathic. "if any child is capable of doing this, it is THIS CHILD" (paraphrasing)

It sure strikes me that they think there is something about this child, above all others they know, that makes him capable of doing these acts.

Never in a million years would I ever think any of my grandchildren capable of murder.

imo

[IAMME]

St. Johns AZ must be the liars capitol of the world;

The boy.
The cops.
The CPS workers.
The step-mom.
Mrs. Romans.
The witnesses.
The prosecutor.
Only truth teller in Apache County is Mr. Brewer, and he didn't witness anything.


The boy obviously lies in the "confession" either at the beginning or the end, I just believe like every EXPERT who has commented that the "confession" part was the part that was COERCED and untruthful.

Several of the police have already been caught in lies in there own statements made under oath and in there reports, there are too many statements that conflict, therefore someone is not telling the truth, weather that be intentional or incompetence....

We do not know what the CPS worker said or didnt say.

There are also inconsistancies with Tiffany's story, not conflicting statements, but her part in the timeline is fishy....

Ms. Romans- either her statements are inconsistant or the officers taking them are.

I am unaware of any other witnesses but wow do you have a link?

The prosecuter says the cps makes statements, obtains a warrant, and then denies knowing of any incriminating statements.....

I dont think all of these ppl are intentionally lying but they most certainly are unless you can explain all of the inconsistancies with the statements we are privy to. They are just completely incompetent IMO.

[GentleBreeze]

I wouldn't have left until I pulled old gramps aside and learned what he thought!

Yeah he sure seemed to be urging her to tell what she knew about this boy but poor thing, she just became so dismayed by it all and I don't blame her.

imo

[Aradia5]

There was a signed sworn affidavit by the social worker.

The search didn't yield any such written documentation. The boy LIED, he kept no tally. Why would the prosecution be aware?

Where is the sworn affidavit? It is viewable online? Thank you!

[PensiveOne]

The boy obviously lies in the "confession" either at the beginning or the end, I just believe like every EXPERT who has commented that the "confession" part was the part that was COERCED and untruthful.

Several of the police have already been caught in lies in there own statements made under oath and in there reports, there are too many statements that conflict, therefore someone is not telling the truth, weather that be intentional or incompetence....

We do not know what the CPS worker said or didnt say.

There are also inconsistancies with Tiffany's story, not conflicting statements, but her part in the timeline is fishy....

Ms. Romans- either her statements are inconsistant or the officers taking them are.

I am unaware of any other witnesses but wow do you have a link?

The prosecuter says the cps makes statements, obtains a warrant, and then denies knowing of any incriminating statements.....

I dont think all of these ppl are intentionally lying but they most certainly are unless you can explain all of the inconsistancies with the statements we are privy to. They are just completely incompetent IMO.

Well said IAMME.

[Hawk]

The boy obviously lies in the "confession" either at the beginning or the end, I just believe like every EXPERT who has commented that the "confession" part was the part that was COERCED and untruthful.

Several of the police have already been caught in lies in there own statements made under oath and in there reports, there are too many statements that conflict, therefore someone is not telling the truth, weather that be intentional or incompetence....

We do not know what the CPS worker said or didnt say.

There are also inconsistancies with Tiffany's story, not conflicting statements, but her part in the timeline is fishy....

Ms. Romans- either her statements are inconsistant or the officers taking them are.

I am unaware of any other witnesses but wow do you have a link?

The prosecuter says the cps makes statements, obtains a warrant, and then denies knowing of any incriminating statements.....

I dont think all of these ppl are intentionally lying but they most certainly are unless you can explain all of the inconsistancies with the statements we are privy to. They are just completely incompetent IMO.

Well, there you go everybody is lying, including the boy (about something [he admitted he lies often]). This case may never be solved.
The evidence doesn't lie (if we're ever privy to all of it). What we have so far is bad for the defendant.

[FDInLaw]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20 STATEMENTS.pdf

There you go!Thank you much! :smile:

Reading it now. . .

[Crispy]

I don't necessarily think they are all lying. Don't you think it's a little odd though that they did all this without the boy having representation? What would it have hurt to wait until an attorney got there. Even if they didn't want someone in during the interrogation it couldn't have hurt to have an atty listening in. Would have saved LE and the DA a whole lot of mess if they had just done things by the book. Of course, it's jmo.

[PensiveOne]

I don't necessarily think they are all lying. Don't you think it's a little odd though that they did all this without the boy having representation? What would it have hurt to wait until an attorney got there. Even if they didn't want someone in during the interrogation it couldn't have hurt to have an atty listening in. Would have saved LE and the DA a whole lot of mess if they had just done things by the book. Of course, it's jmo.

True enough Crispy. Stepping all over the boy's rights is not okay. Putting a video of a juveniles interrogation out for the whole world to see was worse than corrupt. It was stupid. I would say they all fall more on the stupid side than outright liars. JMO.

[Hawk]

True enough Crispy. Stepping all over the boy's rights is not okay. Putting a video of a juveniles interrogation out for the whole world to see was worse than corrupt. It was stupid. I would say they all fall more on the stupid side than outright liars. JMO.

I totally agree. Not stupid, though, but certainly inexperienced.

[Crispy]

I do believe when they first started interviewing him they believed he was a witness. When it became apparent he was lying they should have stopped the interview and obtained a written waiver of his rights by his mother. They would have easily been able to get his mother to sign it & consent to the interview, she would have believed he was a witness and they would have allowed her to think that.

The meeting they had earlier in the morning kinda made me wonder if they truly thought he was a witness or suspect, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. Either way, they should have stopped.

I have serious doubts about this boys guilt. I guess I'll have to wait and see. We do have another hearing coming up this week right?

[PensiveOne]

I totally agree. Not stupid, though, but certainly inexperienced.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Hawk]

Stupid is as stupid does.

Now if we had Forrest Gump on the case we'd get to the truth in a hurry! Box of chocolates or not.

[Crispy]

Off to enjoy my pizza!! :seeya:

[PensiveOne]

Now if we had Forrest Gump on the case we'd get to the truth in a hurry! Box of chocolates or not.

Now that's the first funny thing you have said all night. Run, Forest, run!

[ChildsVOICE]

To whom did he state that? It should also be known that all those are unverified statements gathered by the police after they arrested and charged the boy. The statements cannot be trusted until they are confirmed by the people who the police claim made them that those are in fact their words.

I agree. The authorities have proven they do sloppy and unprofessional work. Why would anyone think that anything they say or do will be accurate? They've already proven and admitted they will lie to get the results they want so why not to the media or public?

[PensiveOne]

Off to enjoy my pizza!! :seeya:

G'night, Crispy:)

[PensiveOne]

I agree. The authorities have proven they do sloppy and unprofessional work. Why would anyone think that anything they say or do will be accurate? They've already proven and admitted they will lie to get the results they want so why not to the media or public?

ChildsVOICE...do you have an update for us on the danger to the boy. I have been concerned since you left that post.

[FDInLaw]

ChildsVOICE...do you have an update for us on the danger to the boy. I have been concerned since you left that post.
What's going on???? I didn't see that post! :huh: :unsure:

[PensiveOne]

What's going on???? I didn't see that post! :huh: :unsure:

I think the post was in the last thread we had. She said the boy was in danger. I haven't heard anything since her last post.

[Aradia5]

Enjoy! Have a slice for me......I wouldn't be able to taste it:( I'm off too caught a wicked cold from someones germ infested preschooler yesterday!:cursing:

Maybe wear a mask when around other children? Might help you. :confused:

[PensiveOne]

What's going on???? I didn't see that post! :huh: :unsure:

It's post #87 in this thread.

[ChildsVOICE]

I do believe when they first started interviewing him they believed he was a witness. When it became apparent he was lying they should have stopped the interview and obtained a written waiver of his rights by his mother. They would have easily been able to get his mother to sign it & consent to the interview, she would have believed he was a witness and they would have allowed her to think that.

I would think that at the moment when he said "I saw someone from the car going into the house", they might have wanted to ask A question, ANY question, Oh I don't know maybe like:
"Was it a man or a woman?"
"What did he/she look like?"
"How do you know he/she was coming from the car? Did you see he/she getting out of the car?"
"What color skin did he/she have? Was this person African American, Native American, Caucasian, Hispanic?"
"How old was this person? a grown up or a teen?"
"How big was this person? fat, thin, tall, short?"
"What was this person wearing?"

By not asking a single question about the person the boy claims he saw PROVES to me that the officers were NOT questioning him as a WITNESS but rather a SUSPECT.

They only pressed him on questions that would point to him being a suspect.

[Jacobtk]

Well, there you go everybody is lying, including the boy (about something [he admitted he lies often]). This case may never be solved.
The evidence doesn't lie (if we're ever privy to all of it). What we have so far is bad for the defendant.

I do not think everybody is lying, but there are certainly people involved in this case on the police's side who have been less than honest and truthful in their actions, their reports and in their sown testimony. Whether this was done by accident, to cover up sloppy work or to bolster a weak case does not matter. All the statements incriminating the boy coincidentally were reported or occurred after the boy's arrest. I do not believe in coincidence, and as a result I am inclined to question veracity of such statements, particularly given that so many were obtained without any legal or parental advocate there for the boy.

It is unpleasant for some to acknowledge this, but sometimes police do lie. They certainly did it during the interrogation of the boy. There is no reason to assume the officers would suddenly sprout some since of morality after charging the boy.

[IAMME]

Getting his mother to waive his rights and consent to the interview would have been soooooo easy!

Except for that pesky problem of his mother being in another state.......how was she going to consent to anything?

[rusure?]

It was used to obtain a warrant. The kid said it.

imo

Well, then the warrant was illegal. It is my understanding that the DA or Brewer said abuse was never an issue, in fact, I believe the DA said it didn't come from him.

[ChildsVOICE]

Well, there you go everybody is lying, including the boy (about something [he admitted he lies often]). This case may never be solved.
The evidence doesn't lie (if we're ever privy to all of it). What we have so far is bad for the defendant.

Hi Hawk. Hate to disagree with you but here goes.

The evidence does lie when the incompetent police can not even log the evidence correctly.

1)When the Spiderman trash can is listed as sitting by the boy's bedroom door but the police photos show it across the room nowhere near the door.

2) When the Sgt. states TR was on the "driveway" but he was actually on the "porch"

3) When the shell or shell casing that was found in the Chipmunk rifle is listed on two seperate police forms differently. One said "shell". The other said "casing".

4) Sgt. states there were two shell casings in the second floor hallway yet the picture only shows one.

5) 10 shell casings found yet only 9 bullets/shells recovered. Do we really believe that they found all the shell casings and all the shells/bullets, considering all the other mistakes and faulty techniques they used?

6) The officer's admitted they lied. If they lie once what's stopping them from lieing again? Do we really TRUST what they have to say? Their testimonies are part of the 'evidence'.


and these are just a few off the top of my head.

No one can trust anything these people say or anything they have documented. They are the ones who have proven themselves incompetent.

I, certainly, would not want to be held accountable for anything they would say or do during a so-called investigation and I really doubt anyone on this forum would want to be at the mercy of this crew.

[rusure?]

But it was okay to release this to the media. . . nice. This sort of thing doesn't prejudice the public at all. :rolleyes:


IMO

Nope, and makes the warrant and everything found as a result null and void.

[rusure?]

Very well said.

Yes siree bob.

[Jacobtk]

Well, then the warrant was illegal. It is my understanding that the DA or Brewer said abuse was never an issue, in fact, I believe the DA said it didn't come from him.

As best as I can tell, Melnick was the first to float that idea. Even if the state contends that its not their position, they still took the boy's underwear. There is no reason to take those unless they planned to check for sexual abuse. Likewise, they wanted the boy to have a full medical examination to check for signs of physical abuse. Also, Eryn stated that she though Tiffany was abusing the boy,

[rusure?]

The grandmother also says that Tiffany suspected the boy that night.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/melnick.pdf


Would love to see the grandparents statement so she could finish that conversation

I would too. It would be nice to be able to understand the statement fully in the context it was given.

I think a definition of the word capable was given a while back by someone?

[rusure?]

That was the question that preceded the '1000 spanking would be my limit statement'.

I thought the statement is in an affidavit signed by the officer.

Where is the link to that. The DA said it was not made.

[ChildsVOICE]

ChildsVOICE...do you have an update for us on the danger to the boy. I have been concerned since you left that post.

Just that there have been several warnings about his safety plus some have received threatening pm's or emails since they decided to HELP get to the truth. I guess the way it usually goes, if someone thought they were going to get away with murder or double murder in this case, and the tide turns the other way, they generally start getting a little nervous and start lashing out...IMO.

Keep him in your prayers and pray for the truth to be found.

[rusure?]

You and me both!!!

There's got to be a really good reason for her to suspect the boy.

The statement in the police report was that the grandmother said that she thought they were too hard on the boy. Then after that statement said that "if anyone is capable it was the boy". Now, taken in that context, what does that say. Especially when she also said that Tiffany suspected. I don't believe the grandmoter actually said she suspected him. Depends on what she meant by him being capable.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, then the warrant was illegal. It is my understanding that the DA or Brewer said abuse was never an issue, in fact, I believe the DA said it didn't come from him.

The boy's attorney, cant remember which one now, in one of the hearings, stressed to Judge Roca that they have never claimed the boy was abused and told him that came from the media, not the defense.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Just that there have been several warnings about his safety plus some have received threatening pm's or emails since they decided to HELP get to the truth. I guess the way it usually goes, if someone thought they were going to get away with murder or double murder in this case, and the tide turns the other way, they generally start getting a little nervous and start lashing out...IMO.

Keep him in your prayers and pray for the truth to be found.

Thanks for the info. He is always in my prayers. There are so many sick people around. I hope they find the ones that are making the threats.

[Hawk]

Where is the link to that. The DA said it was not made.

There is no link to that. Mr. Carlyon said he wouldn't use it. He didn't post it on the county web site.

[Aradia5]

Where is the link to that. The DA said it was not made.

Linda777NJ said they have a sworn affidavit from the CPS worker.

[rusure?]

It isn't a matter of legality. The prosecutor said he won't use it. It's a matter of what the boy said.
Now the CPS workers are liars.

Well, why did the prosecutor say he wouldn't use it. Because the CPS workers are liars. So, do we hold it against the boy because the CPS worker lied? Why not, we can accuse him of murder that someone else may have done, why not charge him with something else because someone besides him lied.:confused:

[rusure?]

St. Johns AZ must be the liars capitol of the world;

The boy.
The cops.
The CPS workers.
The step-mom.
Mrs. Romans.
The witnesses.
The prosecutor.
Only truth teller in Apache County is Mr. Brewer, and he didn't witness anything.

Well, uh, Mrs. Romans did live in St. Johns, did she?

[GentleBreeze]

The statement in the police report was that the grandmother said that she thought they were too hard on the boy. Then after that statement said that "if anyone is capable it was the boy". Now, taken in that context, what does that say. Especially when she also said that Tiffany suspected. I don't believe the grandmother actually said she suspected him. Depends on what she meant by him being capable.

There just has to be something about this boy that we aren't privy to for not only his grandparents thinking he was capable of doing this but Tiffany suspected him too. These people are the ones who would know him better than anyone.

imo

[rusure?]

Odd how everyone is a liar....everyone except the boy. He only lied cause he was coerced :rolleyes:

I am so glad you see that now.:rolleyes:

[Hawk]

Hi Hawk. Hate to disagree with you but here goes.

The evidence does lie when the incompetent police can not even log the evidence correctly.

1)When the Spiderman trash can is listed as sitting by the boy's bedroom door but the police photos show it across the room nowhere near the door.

2) When the Sgt. states TR was on the "driveway" but he was actually on the "porch"

3) When the shell or shell casing that was found in the Chipmunk rifle is listed on two seperate police forms differently. One said "shell". The other said "casing".

4) Sgt. states there were two shell casings in the second floor hallway yet the picture only shows one.

5) 10 shell casings found yet only 9 bullets/shells recovered. Do we really believe that they found all the shell casings and all the shells/bullets, considering all the other mistakes and faulty techniques they used?

6) The officer's admitted they lied. If they lie once what's stopping them from lieing again? Do we really TRUST what they have to say? Their testimonies are part of the 'evidence'.


and these are just a few off the top of my head.

No one can trust anything these people say or anything they have documented. They are the ones who have proven themselves incompetent.

I, certainly, would not want to be held accountable for anything they would say or do during a so-called investigation and I really doubt anyone on this forum would want to be at the mercy of this crew.

Okay, then.
I'm not going to argue with you. I love what you're doing for young Romero too much.

[rusure?]

I wouldn't have left until I pulled old gramps aside and learned what he thought!

I wouldn't have either. Too bad LE didn't feel that way. Hey, Linda, let's u and I go work for St. Johns PD.

[rusure?]

We weren't discussing admissibility.

Just looking for the TRUTH here;)

We sure are!!!!

[muska]

There just has to be something about this boy that we aren't privy to for not only his grandparents thinking he was capable of doing this but Tiffany suspected him too. These people are the ones who would know him better than anyone.

imo

As I have asked before, if the grandparents or Tiffany seriously thought the boy was capable of shooting and murdering two grown men, would they really, still have left weapons unlocked and available to the child? Let's hope not.

[rusure?]

It speaks volumes to me too and the statement she made was so empathic. "if any child is capable of doing this, it is THIS CHILD" (paraphrasing)

It sure strikes me that they think there is something about this child, above all others they know, that makes him capable of doing these acts.

Never in a million years would I ever think any of my grandchildren capable of murder.

imo

Wasn't Brewer trying to get grandma on the visitors list. If she really thought the boy did it, would she be wanting to visit him?

[GentleBreeze]

Where is the link to that. The DA said it was not made.

He said he wasn't aware of any incriminating statements made.

Declaring he had 1000 spankings wouldn't be incriminating.

But they don't go back and get a new SW for nothing.

They followed up on what the CPS worker said but found no evidence of a journal or list.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

I do not think everybody is lying, but there are certainly people involved in this case on the police's side who have been less than honest and truthful in their actions, their reports and in their sown testimony. Whether this was done by accident, to cover up sloppy work or to bolster a weak case does not matter. All the statements incriminating the boy coincidentally were reported or occurred after the boy's arrest. I do not believe in coincidence, and as a result I am inclined to question veracity of such statements, particularly given that so many were obtained without any legal or parental advocate there for the boy.

It is unpleasant for some to acknowledge this, but sometimes police do lie. They certainly did it during the interrogation of the boy. There is no reason to assume the officers would suddenly sprout some since of morality after charging the boy.

Very well said!

Why do people think we have something called 'CHECKS AND BALANCES'?

What makes AMERICA any different than any other country?

Who once said "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." ???
(someone post a reply to this)

[rusure?]

IMO The case has been solved. The question is will there ever be justice for the two dead murder victims?

Not as long as they keep accusing the boy, IMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Wasn't Brewer trying to get grandma on the visitors list. If she really thought the boy did it, would she be wanting to visit him?

Why? Tiffany is on the list and she suspected him right away.

He is her grandson, no matter what he has done.........that is one of the tragic things about this case. Both victim and defendant are her loved ones.

Terrible predicament to be in imo.

imoo

[muska]

Just that there have been several warnings about his safety plus some have received threatening pm's or emails since they decided to HELP get to the truth. I guess the way it usually goes, if someone thought they were going to get away with murder or double murder in this case, and the tide turns the other way, they generally start getting a little nervous and start lashing out...IMO.

Keep him in your prayers and pray for the truth to be found.

I hope he's safe and I hope the judge won't decide he needs to be kept in detention in order to be kept safe. I did see one post in a newspaper that was a little unsettling. That "confession" should never have been released.....

[rusure?]

The meeting they had earlier in the morning kinda made me wonder if they truly thought he was a witness or suspect, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. Either way, they should have stopped.

I have serious doubts about this boys guilt. I guess I'll have to wait and see. We do have another hearing coming up this week right?

They thought he was a suspect. At least according to one of the officers reports. At the meeting in the morning it was discussed.

[PensiveOne]

Linda777NJ said they have a sworn affidavit from the CPS worker.

Did Linda777NJ post a link?

[Hawk]

As I have asked before, if the grandparents or Tiffany seriously thought the boy was capable of shooting and murdering two grown men, would they really, still have left weapons unlocked and available to the child? Let's hope not.

Why where the weapons left around anyway?

This is were the stupid part comes in. It ain't likely the boy, or anyone else, could have killed both men with a ball bat.

[Aradia5]

Very well said!

Why do people think we have something called 'CHECKS AND BALANCES'?

What makes AMERICA any different than any other country?

Who once said "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." ???
(someone post a reply to this)

Jim Kirwan??
I am waiting for the Amanda Knox trial It is in Italy. Very different laws there.

[Aradia5]

Did Linda777NJ post a link?

I can't find one. :confused::confused: Sorry if I mislead you.

[GentleBreeze]

As I have asked before, if the grandparents or Tiffany seriously thought the boy was capable of shooting and murdering two grown men, would they really, still have left weapons unlocked and available to the child? Let's hope not.

It does seem that is exactly what they thought. I think before it came true they probably pushed those fleeting thoughts away and made themselves believe he was just a normal typical child with growing pains.

That is what families tend to do..........turn a blind eye until it is too late.

imoo

[PensiveOne]

Why where the weapons left around anyway?

This is were the stupid part comes in. It ain't likely the boy, or anyone else, could have killed both men with a ball bat.

Somebody needs to come up with a new slogan. The one the gun crowd uses, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people", is known by everybody, as dumb as it is. We need a good slogan about being smart enough and responsible enough to lock up your *&^% guns.

[muska]

Well, why did the prosecutor say he wouldn't use it. Because the CPS workers are liars. So, do we hold it against the boy because the CPS worker lied? Why not, we can accuse him of murder that someone else may have done, why not charge him with something else because someone besides him lied.:confused:

The "confession" and the statement to the CPS worker are both out because they were obtained before the boy was ever read his rights. As of now, Carlyon has simply said he won't use either of those unless the boy testifies, but if this goes much farther forward, I believe Judge Roca will throw both out entirely. I can't imagine Carlyon will be able, in the end, to use either at all. Every exert has agreed they will be tossed.

So if the CPS statement is tossed by the judge, does that make the second warrant invalid? After all, it was obtained based on those inadmissable statements.

[GentleBreeze]

They thought he was a suspect. At least according to one of the officers reports. At the meeting in the morning it was discussed.

Which officer?

thanks

[muska]

Did Linda777NJ post a link?

I don't think so.

[IAMME]

Which officer?

thanks


I cant remember but it was one of the two who went to Tim's mothers house...

[GentleBreeze]

I cant remember but it was one of the two who went to Tim's mothers house...

Ok, I will check the link thread.

Thanks.

[ChildsVOICE]

Okay, then.
I'm not going to argue with you. I love what you're doing for young Romero too much.

I do understand your theory of the shell casings. I just think there is something we are missing because the two shots to TR's chest doesn't match a single shot rifle. So, I began to wonder if they found and collected all the shell casings and bullets/shells. That's why it would have been great to have a reasonably competent investigation and documentation. I think there is more to the shell casing evidence than we know. But, until we find out, I understand how you see it as a single shot needing to be at least one of the weapons used because of the casings inside the entranceway (2nd step and behind door).

Thanks for your input!

[GentleBreeze]

The "confession" and the statement to the CPS worker are both out because they were obtained before the boy was ever read his rights. As of now, Carlyon has simply said he won't use either of those unless the boy testifies, but if this goes much farther forward, I believe Judge Roca will throw both out entirely. I can't imagine Carlyon will be able, in the end, to use either at all. Every exert has agreed they will be tossed.

So if the CPS statement is tossed by the judge, does that make the second warrant invalid? After all, it was obtained based on those inadmissible statements.

Did he mention he would use the statements made to the CPS caseworker if he testifies? I must have missed that. All I saw was he said he would not use them because he wasn't aware of any incriminating statements.

And that is strange that JR would toss it when the court is the one that brought the CPS caseworker into the case to talk to the boy and he knew if any untoward statements were made that the caseworker was not bound by attorney client privilege.

imoo

[Hawk]

I cant remember but it was one of the two who went to Tim's mothers house...

It was Guinn. He and Rodriguez thought the boy was either directly involved, or witnessed, the crimes.

[Hawk]

I do understand your theory of the shell casings. I just think there is something we are missing because the two shots to TR's chest doesn't match a single shot rifle. So, I began to wonder if they found and collected all the shell casings and bullets/shells. That's why it would have been great to have a reasonably competent investigation and documentation. I think there is more to the shell casing evidence than we know. But, until we find out, I understand how you see it as a single shot needing to be at least one of the weapons used because of the casings inside the entranceway (2nd step and behind door).

Thanks for your input!

Thanks. I hope the lab evidence proves the Chipmunk wasn't used at all.

[Streetdreamer]

The "confession" and the statement to the CPS worker are both out because they were obtained before the boy was ever read his rights. As of now, Carlyon has simply said he won't use either of those unless the boy testifies, but if this goes much farther forward, I believe Judge Roca will throw both out entirely. I can't imagine Carlyon will be able, in the end, to use either at all. Every exert has agreed they will be tossed.

So if the CPS statement is tossed by the judge, does that make the second warrant invalid? After all, it was obtained based on those inadmissable statements.


People dont recognize the genuis of the "confession". Getting it thrown out is ideal for the prosecution. Whether a judge or jury decides this case, they've all heard about the confession. The fact that the confession doesn't match the evidence and shows coercion makes it all that more powerful considering its getting thrown out.

Here's how: A juror knows that he's confessed. He never hears anything about whether its a false confession or that false confessions can occur, or even that it doesn't match the evidence, in fact they cant even mention it. So a juror thinks he's confessed and automatically is very skeptical of any defense or alternative possibility presented by the defense. Additionally, he doesn't know how much public pressure is out there for a conviction and considering he confessed, there is a belief that a not guilty vote will result in some sort of persecution to that said juror.

[GentleBreeze]

I do understand your theory of the shell casings. I just think there is something we are missing because the two shots to TR's chest doesn't match a single shot rifle. So, I began to wonder if they found and collected all the shell casings and bullets/shells. That's why it would have been great to have a reasonably competent investigation and documentation. I think there is more to the shell casing evidence than we know. But, until we find out, I understand how you see it as a single shot needing to be at least one of the weapons used because of the casings inside the entranceway (2nd step and behind door).

Thanks for your input!

Since the State of Arizona DPS does these type of investigations all over the state, I do think they are very competent in doing their investigations and documenting it. In the last discovery supplemental almost 400 pages came from the DPS investigation alone, along with 26 pages of lab results.

I just don't see the problem with being hit in the chest within 3-4 inches of each other. The shooter can fire anywhere he wants too. And we do not know the position of Tim's body when the first shot came or the second.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

I have a quick question as I catch up ...

I was reading this morning and got a bit confused but had to leave for work ..

Somebody was posting about the dog being with Tiffany, spaghetti, etc .. but I thought the dog was in the cage according to the boy ..

Is there two dogs?

[ChildsVOICE]

Logging off for awhile. I should be back on later.

Keep up the good work. There's already been huge leads in this case.

Nobody wants a cold blooded murderer running around their neighborhood so the TRUTH is the important thing, even if it means some exposure to incompentency and corruption must be uncovered.

That's the American way.

Thanks everybody!

[GentleBreeze]

I have a quick question as I catch up ...

I was reading this morning and got a bit confused but had to leave for work ..

Somebody was posting about the dog being with Tiffany, spaghetti, etc .. but I thought the dog was in the cage according to the boy ..

Is there two dogs?

The dog was in her cage. The boy said he let her out after finding Tim and Vinnie dead.

Tiffany had to lock the dog up in her Jeep when she came to the crime scene. She had bought prepared spaghetti or food to make spaghetti.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

People dont recognize the genuis of the "confession". Getting it thrown out is ideal for the prosecution. Whether a judge or jury decides this case, they've all heard about the confession. The fact that the confession doesn't match the evidence and shows coercion makes it all that more powerful considering its getting thrown out.

Here's how: A juror knows that he's confessed. He never hears anything about whether its a false confession or that false confessions can occur, or even that it doesn't match the evidence, in fact they cant even mention it. So a juror thinks he's confessed and automatically is very skeptical of any defense or alternative possibility presented by the defense. Additionally, he doesn't know how much public pressure is out there for a conviction and considering he confessed, there is a belief that a not guilty vote will result in some sort of persecution to that said juror.

I would hope most people would consider the age of 8 compared to the word "confession" then they would take a second thought of its validity and have some doubts especially when they add in 10 shots to two grown men, upstairs and downstairs, inside and outside, yada , yada, yada, ....but I don't live in St. Johns.

[TaraCrazyHair]

The "confession" and the statement to the CPS worker are both out because they were obtained before the boy was ever read his rights. As of now, Carlyon has simply said he won't use either of those unless the boy testifies, but if this goes much farther forward, I believe Judge Roca will throw both out entirely. I can't imagine Carlyon will be able, in the end, to use either at all. Every exert has agreed they will be tossed.

So if the CPS statement is tossed by the judge, does that make the second warrant invalid? After all, it was obtained based on those inadmissable statements.

Good question!

I think the SW is invalid if the statement is not allowed to be used if obtained "illegally" but if the statement was under Court Order, it cannot be tossed

I don't think

Make any sense?

[Hawk]

I have a quick question as I catch up ...

I was reading this morning and got a bit confused but had to leave for work ..

Somebody was posting about the dog being with Tiffany, spaghetti, etc .. but I thought the dog was in the cage according to the boy ..

Is there two dogs?

Only one. Nellie the boxer pup.
She didn't eat the hamburger meat after Mrs. Romero put her in the jeep with it. But it may have been precooked spaghetti from the grocery deli that the dog didn't like. Or there may be a pet screen in the vechile separating dog from food. Or ..............

GentleBreeze beat me again!

[TaraCrazyHair]

The dog was in her cage. The boy said he let her out after finding Tim and Vinnie dead.

Tiffany had to lock the dog up in her Jeep when she came to the crime scene. She had bought prepared spaghetti or food to make spaghetti.

imoo

Ok thank you!

I was wondering if somebody was saying she took the dog along for the ride to the store and was greatly confused!

(:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Only one. Nellie the boxer pup.
She didn't eat the hamburger meat after Mrs. Romero put her in the jeep with it. But it may have been precooked spaghetti from the grocery deli that the dog didn't like. Or there may be a pet screen in the vechile separating dog from food. Or ..............

Well, most dogs would smell and eat but maybe it was double bagged if precooked, maybe it was trained not to eat people food (my dogs don't) or maybe there was too much excitement outside that had the dog riled up and she did not pay attention to the groceries.

Not really sure what the point was this morning but I know it stuck in my head until I got home and could ask

lol

I am a bit OCD like that

(:

[TaraCrazyHair]

They thought he was a suspect. At least according to one of the officers reports. At the meeting in the morning it was discussed.

The one officer, Availa, said he was treated as a witness, not a suspect, after he was brought back in after being told of the cell phone call

Not sure what point they declared him a suspect but I imagine it was about halfway through the second interview?

[bkwits]

The prosecuter has said he does not know of any such statement being made, I beleive that was in the response to brewer asking to have the "confession" and search warrants tossed.....

So do we believe him when he requested the warrant or in his later filings? I am not sure that statement was ever made :confused:


I also doubt the hearsay statement. IMO

[Hawk]

The one officer, Availa, said he was treated as a witness, not a suspect, after he was brought back in after being told of the cell phone call

Not sure what point they declared him a suspect but I imagine it was about halfway through the second interview?

Just about the time Commander Avlia asked him about the guns at home (page 32, line 20 of the transcript). She'd had already asked about the guns the day before. That, coupled with Guinn's statement, among others, make me think he was a suspect long before the 'interrogation''

[Aradia5]

Just about the time Commander Avlia asked him about the guns at home (page 32, line 20 of the transcript). She'd had already asked about the guns the day before. That, coupled with Guinn's statement, among others, make me think he was a suspect long before the 'interrogation''

Just reading a few of your posts over the past few hours, you remind me of a jumping bean. I mean no harm by it but you seem to sway back and forth very easily. Do you have a definite stance on this case?

[rusure?]

Why? Tiffany is on the list and she suspected him right away.

He is her grandson, no matter what he has done.........that is one of the tragic things about this case. Both victim and defendant are her loved ones.

Terrible predicament to be in imo.

imoo

Tiffany is on the list, but has she visited him once?

[Streetdreamer]

I would hope most people would consider the age of 8 compared to the word "confession" then they would take a second thought of its validity and have some doubts especially when they add in 10 shots to two grown men, upstairs and downstairs, inside and outside, yada , yada, yada, ....but I don't live in St. Johns.

I hate to disagree with you... But what I'm thinking is the prosecutor doesn't have to argue the evidence in the confession. All he/she has to say was the this boy fired 10 times. If the confession is thrown out, anything thats discussed in it is also taboo. So this way, the juror doesn't know if the boy said in the confession 10 times or 4 times, upstairs or downstairs.

So basically, anything thats in the confession that can be PROVEN OTHERWISE cannot be brought up. So anything said by the prosecutor or information obtained by investigators can be viewed by the potential juror/judge as information obtained from the confession. Which surruptitiously puts the confession into play.

If I was the defense and had a jury trial, I would demand that the confession be admitted. It would definately show that these officers were so biased that they ignored all departmental procedures and coerced a false confession. Not only that, there was never a focus on any other possible suspect from the second they arrived.

BTW, I've never asked you but after viewing the myspace page i see this has case has you in a strong grasp. How are you feeling?

1 more thing: I believe everyone can play a role in service to god regardless of their circumstances. I hope this case plays a role in adjusting people's view of the Justice System that refuses to accept error. Hence, we can have a change.

[Hawk]

Just reading a few of your posts over the past few hours, you remind me of a jumping bean. I mean no harm by it but you seem to sway back and forth very easily. Do you have a definite stance on this case?

Glad you asked.
My personal thoughts are, and have been since we got access to the casing locations along with the severity and locations of the wounds on the victims, that the boys statements of him shooting his dad first, going downstairs and shooting Mr. Romans, then returning upstairs to shoot his dad again match the casings locations perfectly. I think he could very well be the killer. Or, it's not beyond reason, that he came upon them, as he says, and put them out of their misery. But that shoe is a hard fit.

However, I don't think he should not have been charged or arrested. He's too young.
The competency issue should have been dealt with within the first 10 days.
And then if he had to be legally charged there was no reason to put him in jail until the lab evidence was known and he was proven guilty. That is, of course, if he had a safe place to go within the boundaries of Apache county. I'm not sure he did, or does. But he certainly isn't a flight risk, or a danger to society. Or to himself in my opinion. Just keep him away from weapons. Let the doctors tend to him.

It's the brain vs the heart I guess, but there has to be common ground.
I hope the court is wise enough to find it.

[rusure?]

Did Linda777NJ post a link?

of course not.

[ChildsVOICE]

I have a theory...mind you this is just my opinion:

I believe there is a very good possibility that the shooter and a get-a-way driver heard and/or saw the boy coming. The driver ran off to await his partner from down the road. I think it is possible for the shooter to have hid in the house while the boy came in and found his father thinking he had not been spotted by the boy. The boy cried then ran off for help being too scared to stay in the house. After the boy runs off for help and while he's at the neighbor's telling the teen about what he found, the shooter comes out of hiding and takes a few more (about 3 as reported)shots to TR as he leaves. Either the get-a-way driver drives back around and pickes him/her up or they meet down the street somewhere.

This would explain the closeness of the 9-1-1 calls. I wish we knew the exact timings of the 9-1-1 calls. Because how could the boy have ran for help, explain to a teen, teen find cell phone, make the call, and the father have had time to drive home and check out the scene and call 9-1-1 in such close proximity of the call from the neighbor reporting shots heard?

Wouldn't it be a MUST that the boy have already left the house and was already at the neighbors before the second neighbor heard three shots?

According to the linked news article, "Sgt Guinn said a neighbor called the sheriff's office when they heard gun shots in the neighborhood. Deputies say two reports came in at the same time. The child that lives at the house discovered the bodies and ran to a neighbor’s house."
(resource:http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-local-news-110608-double-murder.18793c1f4.html)

[TaraCrazyHair]

Eight is too young to be technically diagnosed as a "pathological liar" or even to have IED

At age 8, they cannot even be diagnosed as bi-polar

Age 8 can be ADD/ADHD ... which can cause violent outbursts .. enough to premeditate double homicide in broad daylight? Not sure

Children lie for a reason ... they do not lie like an adult would lie

And if this child has a pattern of lying -- what was done to get to the root cause?

Spankings, no tv or video games or did somebody seek help from a therapist to stop the pattern?

Was it just causal fibs over homework, cleaning his room, feeding the puppy or did he lie about being molested, beat up in school, aliens took him for a few hours?

I sure would love to know more about his ability to lie so easily or tell fibs

But to brand him a pathological liar is wrong

[Aradia5]

I hate to disagree with you... But what I'm thinking is the prosecutor doesn't have to argue the evidence in the confession. All he/she has to say was the this boy fired 10 times. If the confession is thrown out, anything thats discussed in it is also taboo. So this way, the juror doesn't know if the boy said in the confession 10 times or 4 times, upstairs or downstairs.

So basically, anything thats in the confession that can be PROVEN OTHERWISE cannot be brought up. So anything said by the prosecutor or information obtained by investigators can be viewed by the potential juror/judge as information obtained from the confession. Which surruptitiously puts the confession into play.

If I was the defense and had a jury trial, I would demand that the confession be admitted. It would definately show that these officers were so biased that they ignored all departmental procedures and coerced a false confession. Not only that, there was never a focus on any other possible suspect from the second they arrived.

BTW, I've never asked you but after viewing the myspace page i see this has case has you in a strong grasp. How are you feeling?

1 more thing: I believe everyone can play a role in service to god regardless of their circumstances. I hope this case plays a role in adjusting people's view of the Justice System that refuses to accept error. Hence, we can have a change.


I just read some document from the judge that said no to a jury trial in this case. Did I read it wrong or has that changed?

[Hawk]

I just read some document from the judge that said no to a jury trial in this case. Did I read it wrong or has that changed?

No jury trial. Mr. Brewer asked for one and Judge Roca declined.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Glad you asked.
My personal thoughts are, and have been since we got access to the casing locations along with the severity and locations of the wounds on the victims, that the boys statements of him shooting his dad first, going downstairs and shooting Mr. Romans, then returning upstairs to shoot his dad again match the casings locations perfectly. I think he could very well be the killer. Or, it's not beyond reason, that he came upon them, as he says, and put them out of their misery. But that shoe is a hard fit.

However, I don't think he should not have been charged or arrested. He's too young.
The competency issue should have been dealt with within the first 10 days.
And then if he had to be legally charged there was no reason to put him in jail until the lab evidence was known and he was proven guilty. That is, of course, if he had a safe place to go within the boundaries of Apache county. I'm not sure he did, or does. But he certainly isn't a flight risk, or a danger to society. Or to himself in my opinion. Just keep him away from weapons. Let the doctors tend to him.

It's the brain vs the heart I guess, but there has to be common ground.
I hope the court is wise enough to find it.

Personally, i don't think he would have had the kahunas to kill his dad, then another man then go back and reshoot his dad again

In broad daylight

If he had only killed his dad .. with a couple shots then maybe I could buy it

[muska]

Did he mention he would use the statements made to the CPS caseworker if he testifies? I must have missed that. All I saw was he said he would not use them because he wasn't aware of any incriminating statements.

And that is strange that JR would toss it when the court is the one that brought the CPS caseworker into the case to talk to the boy and he knew if any untoward statements were made that the caseworker was not bound by attorney client privilege.

imoo

Brewer said he wanted both things tossed because the boy was not mirandized (?) until Friday morning. Carlyon came up with his offer and I believe it is because he knows that Brewer will win on this point. I think his offer is a bit of a Hail Mary pass.

[Hawk]

Personally, i don't think he would have had the kahunas to kill his dad, then another man then go back and reshoot his dad again

In broad daylight

If he had only killed his dad .. with a couple shots then maybe I could buy it

That's why we're debating here. I hope you're right.

[rusure?]

Which officer?

thanks

Jones' report describing the conversation with himself and Rodrigez as they left San Carlos:

"We left the area and began driving back to St. Johns. While driving, we discussed the possibilities this information provided, which consisted of two lines of thought: 1) ********** was involved directly in the crime, or 2) ********* was in the home at the time of the crime, and had either witnessed it or come upon the suspect(s) who may have threatened him into not telling what he knew"

Jones said they thought it was the second option but IMO they also consider him a suspect according to option 1.

Avila's report:

"On Thursday, November 6, 2008 we met at the St. Johns Police Department at 08:00 a.m. for a briefing.
I advised of my interviews with Tiffany Romero and ********of the night before. I spoke about what
Liz Romero had told me and also Candace regarding the problems the deceased was having at work.
I told them of ****** being very "flat" in his affect. lieutenant Donnie Jones then said that when he and Sgt.
Rodriquez spoke to Tim's wife, she stated she was on the phone with Tim when Tim told her he needed to go
because something was wrong inside the house and ****** was calling him."

[TaraCrazyHair]

That's why we're debating here. I hope you're right.

You think he could have done it right?

The scenerio is very plausible in your mind

I have tried to play it like a movie in my head and it just doesn't work

Except when i use a demon child as CR .. and we have nothing to suggest he is one

Well short of grandma and grandpa but they have not been verified by documents yet as to what they felt "made him capable"

I sure would love to know!

[rusure?]

Did he mention he would use the statements made to the CPS caseworker if he testifies? I must have missed that. All I saw was he said he would not use them because he wasn't aware of any incriminating statements.

And that is strange that JR would toss it when the court is the one that brought the CPS caseworker into the case to talk to the boy and he knew if any untoward statements were made that the caseworker was not bound by attorney client privilege.

imoo

Well, if the statement "do you want to know why i did it. it's because i kept a journal and the 1000 spanking was going to be my last" isn't incriminating I don't know what is.

[ChildsVOICE]

Glad you asked.
My personal thoughts are, and have been since we got access to the casing locations along with the severity and locations of the wounds on the victims, that the boys statements of him shooting his dad first, going downstairs and shooting Mr. Romans, then returning upstairs to shoot his dad again match the casings locations perfectly. I think he could very well be the killer. Or, it's not beyond reason, that he came upon them, as he says, and put them out of their misery. But that shoe is a hard fit.

However, I don't think he should not have been charged or arrested. He's too young.
The competency issue should have been dealt with within the first 10 days.
And then if he had to be legally charged there was no reason to put him in jail until the lab evidence was known and he was proven guilty. That is, of course, if he had a safe place to go within the boundaries of Apache county. I'm not sure he did, or does. But he certainly isn't a flight risk, or a danger to society. Or to himself in my opinion. Just keep him away from weapons. Let the doctors tend to him.

It's the brain vs the heart I guess, but there has to be common ground.
I hope the court is wise enough to find it.

Believe it or not, Hawk, I appreciate and respect your position. I used to question the same scenarios. However, I 've just done so much researching and listening to the interrogation over and over that I start to pick up on things. Sometimes only after people posts questions and theories.

I would have been skeptical too of the boy's version of the events if he had offered it on his own but if you go back and look at the interrogation, Avila leads him to say it happens in that order. There is no offering this information on his own accord. He was clueless until she started to offer this scenario. She even kept pressing him to say he shot them more than two times. She pressed him to say he shot them, then told them they were shot more than once and pressed him to say he shot them more than once then she kept pressing him to say he shot them more than twice but by that time he started to figure her out and started clamming up. She also kept arguing with him about how much gun powder smoke would be in the room. Avila is the one who gets him to say that he shot his dad then shot Tim then came back.

I too had once thought he may have found them already shot by a different perpetrator and then shot them again to put them out of their misery BUT now we have the gun powder test results. There was NOT enough gun powder on his clothes to indicate he even shot a gun even ONCE.

He explained that he laid down on the landing and the bottom stairs to the landing. That's where the shooter had to have shot the two shots that left the casings on steps 3 and 4. The boy would have been laying exactly where the shooter would have been standing. Wouldn't the carpeting have gun powder residue on it? to transfer to his clothing?

The gun powder residue results proves he did not shoot any guns wearing those clothes on that day. Not even for target shooting outside, as I had originally thought could have been the case months ago.

Just because I rallied a website for this boy does not mean I never questioned his involvement. I created this site because no one and no news agencies were telling his side of the story. The more I listened to HIS words to the police the more they prove he is telling the truth when he says he found them already shot.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Well, if the statement "do you want to know why i did it. it's because i kept a journal and the 1000 spanking was going to be my last" isn't incriminating I don't know what is.


It is very incriminating .. if accurate

Shows premeditation

But -- what if spanking was another word for something else?

Still shows premeditation ... but in a completely different light

[ChildsVOICE]

Well, if the statement "do you want to know why i did it. it's because i kept a journal and the 1000 spanking was going to be my last" isn't incriminating I don't know what is.

You have to consider who's leaking this information and how truthful and how competent in documentation that 'informant' is.

What is the motive of the person reporting this?

Some are sheep, IMO.

[TaraCrazyHair]

The biggest thing to me about his "confession" was his response "Tim? Why would I shoot Tim?"

That is the most telling part of that "confession"

It is almost like he was unaware Tim was dead or completely shocked he was even asked about killing him

Then (to me) the "coercion" is the rest of the story

[rusure?]

You have to consider who's leaking this information and how truthful and how competent in documentation that 'informant' is.

What is the motive of the person reporting this?

Some are sheep, IMO.

That's my point. Gentle Breeze said the DA said there wasn't anything incriminating in the statements the boy gave the DPS worker. But rumer has it the boy said the quote from my post. So, that tells me the DPS worker was lying since the DA said there wasn't anything incriminating said.

[rusure?]

well, good nite folks. bed time for bonzo.:w00t:
it's a school night.
see you guys tomorrow.

[TaraCrazyHair]

That's my point. Gentle Breeze said the DA said there wasn't anything incriminating in the statements the boy gave the DPS worker. But rumer has it the boy said the quote from my post. So, that tells me the DPS worker was lying since the DA said there wasn't anything incriminating said.

maybe that is the DA's ace in the hole?

[muska]

People dont recognize the genuis of the "confession". Getting it thrown out is ideal for the prosecution. Whether a judge or jury decides this case, they've all heard about the confession. The fact that the confession doesn't match the evidence and shows coercion makes it all that more powerful considering its getting thrown out.

Here's how: A juror knows that he's confessed. He never hears anything about whether its a false confession or that false confessions can occur, or even that it doesn't match the evidence, in fact they cant even mention it. So a juror thinks he's confessed and automatically is very skeptical of any defense or alternative possibility presented by the defense. Additionally, he doesn't know how much public pressure is out there for a conviction and considering he confessed, there is a belief that a not guilty vote will result in some sort of persecution to that said juror.

It is definitely a win-win for the prosecution. Especially since we know that Carlyon knew that "confession" would be tossed. He got it out there and made sure the public heard it - everywhere.

The former attorney general, Grant Woods, said it should not have been released and that the boy "has been smeared across the world." Those are pretty strong words from an attorney general. I almost think they may have a lawsuit even if the kid is ever found to have done this. Should any police dept or DA be able to treat an 8 year old like this? Release a tape that has resulted, very possibly, in threats against a child? Sorry about the rant. It is just so maddening.

[ChildsVOICE]

Jones' report describing the conversation with himself and Rodrigez as they left San Carlos:

"We left the area and began driving back to St. Johns. While driving, we discussed the possibilities this information provided, which consisted of two lines of thought: 1) ********** was involved directly in the crime, or 2) ********* was in the home at the time of the crime, and had either witnessed it or come upon the suspect(s) who may have threatened him into not telling what he knew"

Jones said they thought it was the second option but IMO they also consider him a suspect according to option 1.

Avila's report:

"On Thursday, November 6, 2008 we met at the St. Johns Police Department at 08:00 a.m. for a briefing.
I advised of my interviews with Tiffany Romero and ********of the night before. I spoke about what
Liz Romero had told me and also Candace regarding the problems the deceased was having at work.
I told them of ****** being very "flat" in his affect. lieutenant Donnie Jones then said that when he and Sgt.
Rodriquez spoke to Tim's wife, she stated she was on the phone with Tim when Tim told her he needed to go
because something was wrong inside the house and ****** was calling him."

(bolding by me)

Which is a far cry from hearing the boy's voice herself.

The boy told police he saw the truck, he saw the door open, he saw Tim 'there', he called out "Tim. Tim are you home?"

If Tim was expecting the boy to be in the house according to house rules then why wouldn't he think the boy was inside calling for him even though he could have been mistaken. He just wasn't thinking of any other possibilities.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734255]You think he could have done it right?

The scenerio is very plausible in your mind

I have tried to play it like a movie in my head and it just doesn't work

Except when i use a demon child as CR .. and we have nothing to suggest he is one

Well short of grandma and grandpa but they have not been verified by documents yet as to what they felt "made him capable"

I sure would love to know![/QUOTE

Unfortunately we don't have anything to suggest what kind of child he is except that he has been described as normal by a couple of his friends and a few adults. This episode in his life may be when the beast emerged, so to speak.

Grandma's statement to Chief Melnick didn't help public opinion of the boy any. She may regret having said it.

But again, I hope the lab evidence proves another weapon(s) was used and the boy is completely exonerated. Hopefully we'll know more after the next hearing. (If they finally accomplish something more than posturing.)

[GentleBreeze]

I have a theory...mind you this is just my opinion:

I believe there is a very good possibility that the shooter and a get-a-way driver heard and/or saw the boy coming. The driver ran off to await his partner from down the road. I think it is possible for the shooter to have hid in the house while the boy came in and found his father thinking he had not been spotted by the boy. The boy cried then ran off for help being too scared to stay in the house. After the boy runs off for help and while he's at the neighbor's telling the teen about what he found, the shooter comes out of hiding and takes a few more (about 3 as reported)shots to TR as he leaves. Either the get-a-way driver drives back around and pickes him/her up or they meet down the street somewhere.

This would explain the closeness of the 9-1-1 calls. I wish we knew the exact timings of the 9-1-1 calls. Because how could the boy have ran for help, explain to a teen, teen find cell phone, make the call, and the father have had time to drive home and check out the scene and call 9-1-1 in such close proximity of the call from the neighbor reporting shots heard?
Wouldn't it be a MUST that the boy have already left the house and was already at the neighbors before the second neighbor heard three shots?

According to the linked news article, "Sgt Guinn said a neighbor called the sheriff's office when they heard gun shots in the neighborhood. Deputies say two reports came in at the same time. The child that lives at the house discovered the bodies and ran to a neighbor’s house."
(resource:http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-local-news-110608-double-murder.18793c1f4.html)

The shots heard are a guesstimate of time imo.

I just can't see a killer who is this brutal not killing the child if they saw the child in the home. What would one more murder be to them when they are going to kill two anyway. I don't think they would take the chance of letting him leave the home and he wasn't even scared to go inside the home.

Didn't the neighbors say they waited a few minutes before they called?

So if it took less than 3 minutes to kill or incapacitate Vinnie and then 3-4 minutes to shoot Tim six times and maybe go back up the stairs to finish Vinnie off and if it took around 3-4 minutes for all the other that followed after then, that you have listed above in your post ChildsVoice, then it leaves absolutely no time for the boy to do anything he said he did in that home that day but put the gun on the cage and leave once he knew they both were dead and no longer shaking or quivering.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734255]You think he could have done it right?

The scenerio is very plausible in your mind

I have tried to play it like a movie in my head and it just doesn't work

Except when i use a demon child as CR .. and we have nothing to suggest he is one

Well short of grandma and grandpa but they have not been verified by documents yet as to what they felt "made him capable"

I sure would love to know![/QUOTE

Unfortunately we don't have anything to suggest what kind of child he is except that he has been described as normal by a couple of his friends and a few adults. This episode in his life may be when the beast emerged, so to speak.

Grandma's statement to Chief Melnick didn't help public opinion of the boy any. She may regret having said it.

But again, I hope the lab evidence proves another weapon(s) was used and the boy is completely exonerated. Hopefully we'll know more after the next hearing. (If they finally accomplish something more than posturing.)


It almost has to be a miswording

Are the grandparents well versed?

Could there be a language barrier?

[TaraCrazyHair]

The shots heard are a guesstimate of time imo.

I just can't see a killer who is this brutal not killing the child if they saw the child in the home. What would one more murder be to them when they are going to kill two anyway. I don't think they would take the chance of letting him leave the home and he wasn't even scared to go inside the home.

Didn't the neighbors say they waited a few minutes before they called?

So if it took less than 3 minutes to kill or incapacitate Vinnie and then 3-4 minutes to shoot Tim six times and maybe go back up the stairs to finish Vinnie off and if it took around 3-4 minutes for all the other that followed after then, that you have listed above in your post ChildsVoice, then it leaves absolutely no time for the boy to do anything he said he did in that home that day but put the gun on the cage and leave once he knew they both were dead and no longer shaking or quivering.

imoo

Point a gun at at a child after killing his father and tell him if he says a word, his mother is next, then his dog etc .. would be enough for a child not to tell anything they knew

At least not right away

Some people can adults without blinking an eye but they would certainly hesitate to kill a child

Except for the stone cold killers ... and that is putting it in words that IS allows

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12734304]


It almost has to be a miswording

Are the grandparents well versed?

Could there be a language barrier?

I don't think so. From what I can tell they have lived in St. John most of their lives. A lot of the Romero family lives there. When the case first unfolded one of the cousins, I believe, said there were over a 110 cousins living there.

The one that talked to the media had no accent at all.

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734313]

I don't think so. From what I can tell they have lived in St. John most of their lives. A lot of the Romero family lives there. When the case first unfolded one of the cousins, I believe, said there were over a 110 cousins living there.

The one that talked to the media had no accent at all.

In that case, i would absolutely love to know what they meant

[ChildsVOICE]

It is definitely a win-win for the prosecution. Especially since we know that Carlyon knew that "confession" would be tossed. He got it out there and made sure the public heard it - everywhere.

The former attorney general, Grant Woods, said it should not have been released and that the boy "has been smeared across the world." Those are pretty strong words from an attorney general. I almost think they may have a lawsuit even if the kid is ever found to have done this. Should any police dept or DA be able to treat an 8 year old like this? Release a tape that has resulted, very possibly, in threats against a child? Sorry about the rant. It is just so maddening.

IMO...It is CRIMINAL what they have done by jeapordizing this little child's life and the lives of all who surround him!

Either way he turns there's people with hatred towards him. The authorities have convinced the locals he did it because of their faulty investigation and illegal proceedures and very carefully orchestrated 'leaks' to the public, whether truthful or not. The more their incompetencies have been uncovered the more they turned around and smeared this child. They have preyed upon the public by abusing the public's TRUST in their motives and abilities.


IMO...There's some people who thinks he's guilty and getting away with murder AND there's at least one or more cold blooded murderer(s) who have now been well informed thanks to the Prosecutor's office that this little child has seen "someone coming from the car going into the house."

[GentleBreeze]

Point a gun at at a child after killing his father and tell him if he says a word, his mother is next, then his dog etc .. would be enough for a child not to tell anything they knew

At least not right away

Some people can adults without blinking an eye but they would certainly hesitate to kill a child

Except for the stone cold killers ... and that is putting it in words that IS allows

I just don't think that happened. He wasn't tense at all in his interview and being in detention for three months he would have sung like a canary by now imo.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

I just don't think that happened. He wasn't tense at all in his interview and being in detention for three months he would have sung like a canary by now imo.

imoo

Maybe he has

Boy Cried Wolf and the DA does not know what to believe

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12734323]

In that case, i would absolutely love to know what they meant

You mean about them saying if any child was capable of doing this it was this boy?

I think they said what they meant and they know this child better than anyone imo.

imoo

[muska]

Eight is too young to be technically diagnosed as a "pathological liar" or even to have IED

At age 8, they cannot even be diagnosed as bi-polar

Age 8 can be ADD/ADHD ... which can cause violent outbursts .. enough to premeditate double homicide in broad daylight? Not sure

Children lie for a reason ... they do not lie like an adult would lie

And if this child has a pattern of lying -- what was done to get to the root cause?

Spankings, no tv or video games or did somebody seek help from a therapist to stop the pattern?


Was it just causal fibs over homework, cleaning his room, feeding the puppy or did he lie about being molested, beat up in school, aliens took him for a few hours?

I sure would love to know more about his ability to lie so easily or tell fibs

But to brand him a pathological liar is wrong

I don't know that there was a previous problem with lying No one mentioned that as a problem that I can remember. I just remember that he had some kind of trouble with his homework - either getting it done or remembering to bring it home. Who knows what he was thinking during the "confession?" He may just have said he lies because Avila had just finished telling him about 40 times that he was a liar.

[Hawk]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12734304]


It almost has to be a miswording

Are the grandparents well versed?

Could there be a language barrier?

I don't think there was a language barrier. Chief Melnick told the family as a group outside the room the boy was questioned in at the North County Health Care building. I believe there was no doubt in anyone's mind what the chief was telling them.

"After several minutes Liz Castillo shouted out in an angry and loud voice, 'I knew this would happen. They were too hard on ... (the boy). I knew he did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any eight year old boy is capable of doing this it's...(the boy).' (end quote)

This is from a person who knows him as well as anyone on earth.

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734330]

You mean about them saying if any child was capable of doing this it was this boy?

I think they said what they meant and they know this child better than anyone imo.

imoo

In what capacity are they referring though?

Talk about a loaded gun!

[Aradia5]

maybe that is the DA's ace in the hole?

huh?

Why can't I just write huh?

[muska]

I just read some document from the judge that said no to a jury trial in this case. Did I read it wrong or has that changed?

Judge Roca has said no to a jury trial. Juvenile trials are typically heard by the judge. I don't know if there is any chance that Brewer could appeal that considering the seriousness of the charges.

[GentleBreeze]

:sneaky:[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12734340]

In what capacity are they referring though?

Talk about a loaded gun!

I sm not sure what you mean.

This is the statements they made when the Police Chief came to see them.

What in the heck is happening to the "quote"? Every time I quote someone it throws up my post. :w00t: Grrrrr lol

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

I don't know that there was a previous problem with lying No one mentioned that as a problem that I can remember. I just remember that he had some kind of trouble with his homework - either getting it done or remembering to bring it home. Who knows what he was thinking during the "confession?" He may just have said he lies because Avila had just finished telling him about 40 times that he was a liar.


There was poster earlier tonight that had him diagnosed as a pathological liar, having IED ect ...

I was merely explaining that technically, he cannot be diagnosed as such

(:

[muska]

I have a theory...mind you this is just my opinion:

I believe there is a very good possibility that the shooter and a get-a-way driver heard and/or saw the boy coming. The driver ran off to await his partner from down the road. I think it is possible for the shooter to have hid in the house while the boy came in and found his father thinking he had not been spotted by the boy. The boy cried then ran off for help being too scared to stay in the house. After the boy runs off for help and while he's at the neighbor's telling the teen about what he found, the shooter comes out of hiding and takes a few more (about 3 as reported)shots to TR as he leaves. Either the get-a-way driver drives back around and pickes him/her up or they meet down the street somewhere.

This would explain the closeness of the 9-1-1 calls. I wish we knew the exact timings of the 9-1-1 calls. Because how could the boy have ran for help, explain to a teen, teen find cell phone, make the call, and the father have had time to drive home and check out the scene and call 9-1-1 in such close proximity of the call from the neighbor reporting shots heard?

Wouldn't it be a MUST that the boy have already left the house and was already at the neighbors before the second neighbor heard three shots?

According to the linked news article, "Sgt Guinn said a neighbor called the sheriff's office when they heard gun shots in the neighborhood. Deputies say two reports came in at the same time. The child that lives at the house discovered the bodies and ran to a neighbor’s house."
(resource:http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/phoenix-local-news-110608-double-murder.18793c1f4.html)

It seems to fit the facts so it could have happened this way. I just think that whatever happened will be something no one has thought of........that seems to be the case usually, I think.

[ChildsVOICE]

The shots heard are a guesstimate of time imo.

I just can't see a killer who is this brutal not killing the child if they saw the child in the home. What would one more murder be to them when they are going to kill two anyway. I don't think they would take the chance of letting him leave the home and he wasn't even scared to go inside the home.

Didn't the neighbors say they waited a few minutes before they called?

So if it took less than 3 minutes to kill or incapacitate Vinnie and then 3-4 minutes to shoot Tim six times and maybe go back up the stairs to finish Vinnie off and if it took around 3-4 minutes for all the other that followed after then, that you have listed above in your post ChildsVoice, then it leaves absolutely no time for the boy to do anything he said he did in that home that day but put the gun on the cage and leave once he knew they both were dead and no longer shaking or quivering.

imoo

Not all killers would kill a child. Some actually would draw a line at killing a child, escpecially this young and also, if the shooter thought he had NOT been seen.

Why else do you think murderers beat child molesters in prison? I'm sure you can find lots of cases where children are witnesses to brutal killings yet the killer leaves them behind as a witness. In this case the shooter may have been very convinced he/she had not been seen. OR Perhaps, if it was a hit, thought to him/herself "I'm getting paid for the guys but I'm not getting paid enough to take out a kid."
You just don't know. I think the shooter thought he was well hid and obviously did not think it was necessary to kill the child.

[Hawk]

:sneaky:[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734350]

I sm not sure what you mean.

This is the statements they made when the Police Chief came to see them.

What in the heck is happening to the "quote"? Every time I quote someone it throws up my post. :w00t: Grrrrr lol

imoo

I know. It looks like we're talking to ourselves. Well, h..., maybe we are!

[IAMME]

Eight is too young to be technically diagnosed as a "pathological liar" or even to have IED

At age 8, they cannot even be diagnosed as bi-polar

Age 8 can be ADD/ADHD ... which can cause violent outbursts .. enough to premeditate double homicide in broad daylight? Not sure

Children lie for a reason ... they do not lie like an adult would lie

And if this child has a pattern of lying -- what was done to get to the root cause?

Spankings, no tv or video games or did somebody seek help from a therapist to stop the pattern?

Was it just causal fibs over homework, cleaning his room, feeding the puppy or did he lie about being molested, beat up in school, aliens took him for a few hours?

I sure would love to know more about his ability to lie so easily or tell fibs

But to brand him a pathological liar is wrong

ITA children lie, all children will lie to get out of trouble, how many times has "nobody" or "not me" vandalized your house? I know that that little brat frequently does things around here that would get one of MY kids in big trouble. I really hate "nobody" AKA "not me", he is messy, fast, really hard to pin down and for some reason frequently frames the kids that live here.

If you are spanking a kid repeatedly over something as benign as bringing home school papers, then IMO you are asking to be lied to. There are other more effective ways to discipline children and punishment(in any form, but especially physical punishent) should be a last resort.

[MOTHEROF4BOY]

After leaving several comments on topix, and got way too emotional I told my self not to leave any other comments. So I have decided just to read, but after reading for the past couple of days, I have to comment:angry: I do not understand why some of you think his confession proves anything. He said multiple story's in his confession why do you believe the ending, and not the beginning? I do not believe this child did this. One of the detectives this child new, he helped her feed her horses ect. So accourse he was comfortable with her in that room, I am sure he felt like he was helping. He may have sounded calm, but he is 8 he doesnt understand the concept of death. I have children this age when my grandmother died they were not upset, on the way to the funeral they acted like we were about to go somewhere fun, now when we got there they realized it was a sad time, but not befor they dont get it. There was so much activity going on around him I am sure it did not seam real to him, it was like the movies in his mind. Then when they were coercing him to confessing he couldn't that is why he keeps saying I THINK about everything, there sat a child with a woman that he felt a friendship with, so he was telling her want he thought she wanted to hear. For the grandmother, she said I knew it. Mind you people this came from a detective that the family new very well. I am sure they did not think the detective would lie to them, so accourse it was out of anger, then she said they were to hard on him, but there has been many reports were family and friends are upset that people think abuse went on, when it didn't. That was a grandmother getting told by someone she knows personally telling her this she still had to come up with a defense for him. We know now there was not abuse even his mother said the boy and his dad were like best friends. There feelings now we do not know. We do know that VR had a sister from panema that actually was down here for the Jan court hearing and was seen smiling and waiving to the boy. There is a gag order in place, plus these people in St. Johns do not like all the media attention, so if any of you think for once that these people will talk to the media before the entire truth is known, you are so wrong. Mrs Romans stated that her husband said the boy was calling for him, there are so many different possibilities, if she heard his voice, how can she be positive? She really cant be people mistake voices all the time it could have been VR calling. If the person Romans new, and it was part of his double life, well then yeah he would have said it was the boy. Mrs Romans has two different stories, and both of them have maybes. I do not think that is strong evidence neither. Candy has changed her myspace page now, but when the murders happened she was hurt, it was obvious there was some sort of relationship, just by looking at her comments her friends sent to her, so I believe there was an affair there. I just don't understand why people think he did this, when really there is no evidence there, there is so much more that is out there and they have not released hmmm wonder why. The defense can not talk to anyone, so for people to believe this and that because people are not talking they can not. The DA can release items to the media, defense cant. Guess want DA stopped??? This child had no signs of mental problems, no school problems, nothing. In Nov friends and the community did talk they had nothing but good things to say about this boy. No one could believe that he would do this, but people must forget were talking about a small town everyone knows someone in the law enforcement accourse there not going to think they are wrong, but who knows now with all the screw ups they did want the people in St. Johns really think. Then there were many that stated they were tired of the media. Then went a gag order, no one wants to talk in St. Johns right now, its not proving the boys guilt. People move to St. Johns to be left alone they do not like media in there town. This case was handled all wrong and it hurts to know a small child has to go threw all this. I pray every night that god has his arms wrapped around him. I read; correct me if I am wrong, but is there a missing gun??? If so WTH :scared: Sorry so long:rolleyes:

[muska]

Well, if the statement "do you want to know why i did it. it's because i kept a journal and the 1000 spanking was going to be my last" isn't incriminating I don't know what is.

That's what I was thinking......Carlyon wants to look like he didn't want that info.......sure!

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12734359]:sneaky:

I know. It looks like we're talking to ourselves. Well, h..., maybe we are!

LOL

Most of the time it seems I am talking to myself

Now it appears I can argue with myself too

LOL

[Aradia5]

The shots heard are a guesstimate of time imo.

I just can't see a killer who is this brutal not killing the child if they saw the child in the home. What would one more murder be to them when they are going to kill two anyway. I don't think they would take the chance of letting him leave the home and he wasn't even scared to go inside the home.

Didn't the neighbors say they waited a few minutes before they called?

So if it took less than 3 minutes to kill or incapacitate Vinnie and then 3-4 minutes to shoot Tim six times and maybe go back up the stairs to finish Vinnie off and if it took around 3-4 minutes for all the other that followed after then, that you have listed above in your post ChildsVoice, then it leaves absolutely no time for the boy to do anything he said he did in that home that day but put the gun on the cage and leave once he knew they both were dead and no longer shaking or quivering.

imoo

I watched a video of a Roman's family spokesman and he said the time frame of the murders was 11 minutes. Is he correct?

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12734359]:sneaky:

I know. It looks like we're talking to ourselves. Well, h..., maybe we are!

:tongueside: Maybe we are at that but it sure is driving me bonkers.:thumbdown:

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=TaraCrazyHair;12734313]

I don't think there was a language barrier. Chief Melnick told the family as a group outside the room the boy was questioned in at the North County Health Care building. I believe there was no doubt in anyone's mind what the chief was telling them.

"After several minutes Liz Castillo shouted out in an angry and loud voice, 'I knew this would happen. They were too hard on ... (the boy). I knew he did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any eight year old boy is capable of doing this it's...(the boy).' (end quote)

This is from a person who knows him as well as anyone on earth.

"I knew this would happen"

Very odd words coming from a grandmother

Unless she meant she knew he would admit to it, false confession

[GentleBreeze]

I watched a video of a Roman's family spokesman and he said the time frame of the murders was 11 minutes. Is he correct?

If he goes by 4:52 when Vinnie went inside until the 5:03 911 call was made that would be 11 minutes. That may be where he is getting 11 minutes.

imoo

[Aradia5]

If he goes by 4:52 when Vinnie went inside until the 5:03 911 call was made that would be 11 minutes. That may be where he is getting 11 minutes.

imoo

ok, thank you.

[Hawk]

I watched a video of a Roman's family spokesman and he said the time frame of the murders was 11 minutes. Is he correct?

There are conflicting reports but the beginning time of 4:53 (about a minute after Mr. Romans called his wife) is our best starting time. The 911 call was anywhere from 5:02 to 5:06 depending on what you read. I'd say about 7 to 9 minutes for the shooting. Probably less because Mr. Davis had to come home after his son called him.
But who knows for sure?

[ChildsVOICE]

[QUOTE=GentleBreeze;12734359]:sneaky:

I know. It looks like we're talking to ourselves. Well, h..., maybe we are!

Just don't start answering yourself and you'll be alright!:laugh:

[Aradia5]

There are conflicting reports but the beginning time of 4:53 (about a minute after Mr. Romans called his wife) is our best starting time. The 911 call was anywhere from 5:02 to 5:06 depending on what you read. I'd say about 7 to 9 minutes for the shooting. Probably less because Mr. Davis had to come home after his son called him.
But who knows for sure?

How long does it take to shoot a rifle? Would it help to find that out?

[muska]

Maybe he has

Boy Cried Wolf and the DA does not know what to believe

Especially since the DA, with the release of the video, has presented the child to everyone as this horrible, lying child. Who is going to believe anything he says now? I think there is something very unfair about all of this...kind of like cheating.

[TaraCrazyHair]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12734369]

Just don't start answering yourself and you'll be alright!:laugh:

Unless you start answering yourself, arguing with yourself then put yourself on ignore

:ohmy:

LOL

[GentleBreeze]

Not all killers would kill a child. Some actually would draw a line at killing a child, especially this young and also, if the shooter thought he had NOT been seen.

Why else do you think murderers beat child molesters in prison? I'm sure you can find lots of cases where children are witnesses to brutal killings yet the killer leaves them behind as a witness. In this case the shooter may have been very convinced he/she had not been seen. OR Perhaps, if it was a hit, thought to him/herself "I'm getting paid for the guys but I'm not getting paid enough to take out a kid."
You just don't know. I think the shooter thought he was well hid and obviously did not think it was necessary to kill the child.


But respectfully CV, that just does not fit the time line imo.

And why would the boy lie about all he did once he came across the bodies? He sure wasn't being coerced then. He was just telling them how he came walking up the street and found them already dead and then he goes into all the other details of what he did once inside.

There is just no logical reason why he would lie about that. Now trying to diminish his accountability in the crime, yes, but not just holding their attention, drawing maps and going into great detail of how the inside was structured and on an on with he did this or he did that.

It just doesnt fit imo.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

ITA children lie, all children will lie to get out of trouble, how many times has "nobody" or "not me" vandalized your house? I know that that little brat frequently does things around here that would get one of MY kids in big trouble. I really hate "nobody" AKA "not me", he is messy, fast, really hard to pin down and for some reason frequently frames the kids that live here.

If you are spanking a kid repeatedly over something as benign as bringing home school papers, then IMO you are asking to be lied to. There are other more effective ways to discipline children and punishment(in any form, but especially physical punishent) should be a last resort.

He lives at my house too! Wow he really is fast!

[TaraCrazyHair]

Especially since the DA, with the release of the video, has presented the child to everyone as this horrible, lying child. Who is going to believe anything he says now? I think there is something very unfair about all of this...kind of like cheating.

It is very much cheating

But i can have hope that that even the DA gets to a point they have to question what they thought were facts may indeed not be the factual facts

(At least it happens on Law & Order)

(;

[Details]

"I knew this would happen"

Very odd words coming from a grandmother

Unless she meant she knew he would admit to it, false confessionImagine this: Your son is dead. The police have just lied to you, told you that the child knew details of the crime scene that only the killer could have known, such as that the father was shot in the chest (this, BTW, was not true). You don't have reason to believe the police are liars, not at this point, and you are hardly in a state to be thinking clearly. If you've got any past debates with your son about discipline (and it seems like they did), it's pretty easy for me to see how she'd say that, try to rationalize what she thinks happened.

She was presented with a fact - the child killed them, absolutely true, because he knows things he couldn't possibly know otherwise. She was attempting to fit it into her world.

[Hawk]

How long does it take to shoot a rifle? Would it help to find that out?

Wow. My estimate on this little Chipmunk .22 is about 12 seconds per fire, with any accuracy. But others say it can be done effectively in 6 seconds or less. The time difference is mainly in the reloading process because the cartridges are so little. Small fingers are much better suited to the process.

[TaraCrazyHair]

He lives at my house too! Wow he really is fast!

He lives in every house with kids between 5 and 13

After that, it gets serious

[ChildsVOICE]

But respectfully CV, that just does not fit the time line imo.

And why would the boy lie about all he did once he came across the bodies? He sure wasn't being coerced then. He was just telling them how he came walking up the street and found them already dead and then he goes into all the other details of what he did once inside.

There is just no logical reason why he would lie about that. Now trying to diminish his accountability in the crime, yes, but not just holding their attention, drawing maps and going into great detail of how the inside was structured and on an on with he did this or he did that.

It just doesnt fit imo.

imoo

This comment shows me you have not adequately watched the interrogation. Of course EVERYTHING after he tells them about finding the bodies was COERCED.

My laptop battery is dying. I'm getting ready to loose power. Good night all!

[muska]

After leaving several comments on topix, and got way too emotional I told my self not to leave any other comments. So I have decided just to read, but after reading for the past couple of days, I have to comment:angry: I do not understand why some of you think his confession proves anything. He said multiple story's in his confession why do you believe the ending, and not the beginning? I do not believe this child did this. One of the detectives this child new, he helped her feed her horses ect. So accourse he was comfortable with her in that room, I am sure he felt like he was helping. He may have sounded calm, but he is 8 he doesnt understand the concept of death. I have children this age when my grandmother died they were not upset, on the way to the funeral they acted like we were about to go somewhere fun, now when we got there they realized it was a sad time, but not befor they dont get it. There was so much activity going on around him I am sure it did not seam real to him, it was like the movies in his mind. Then when they were coercing him to confessing he couldn't that is why he keeps saying I THINK about everything, there sat a child with a woman that he felt a friendship with, so he was telling her want he thought she wanted to hear. For the grandmother, she said I knew it. Mind you people this came from a detective that the family new very well. I am sure they did not think the detective would lie to them, so accourse it was out of anger, then she said they were to hard on him, but there has been many reports were family and friends are upset that people think abuse went on, when it didn't. That was a grandmother getting told by someone she knows personally telling her this she still had to come up with a defense for him. We know now there was not abuse even his mother said the boy and his dad were like best friends. There feelings now we do not know. We do know that VR had a sister from panema that actually was down here for the Jan court hearing and was seen smiling and waiving to the boy. There is a gag order in place, plus these people in St. Johns do not like all the media attention, so if any of you think for once that these people will talk to the media before the entire truth is known, you are so wrong. Mrs Romans stated that her husband said the boy was calling for him, there are so many different possibilities, if she heard his voice, how can she be positive? She really cant be people mistake voices all the time it could have been VR calling. If the person Romans new, and it was part of his double life, well then yeah he would have said it was the boy. Mrs Romans has two different stories, and both of them have maybes. I do not think that is strong evidence neither. Candy has changed her myspace page now, but when the murders happened she was hurt, it was obvious there was some sort of relationship, just by looking at her comments her friends sent to her, so I believe there was an affair there. I just don't understand why people think he did this, when really there is no evidence there, there is so much more that is out there and they have not released hmmm wonder why. The defense can not talk to anyone, so for people to believe this and that because people are not talking they can not. The DA can release items to the media, defense cant. Guess want DA stopped??? This child had no signs of mental problems, no school problems, nothing. In Nov friends and the community did talk they had nothing but good things to say about this boy. No one could believe that he would do this, but people must forget were talking about a small town everyone knows someone in the law enforcement accourse there not going to think they are wrong, but who knows now with all the screw ups they did want the people in St. Johns really think. Then there were many that stated they were tired of the media. Then went a gag order, no one wants to talk in St. Johns right now, its not proving the boys guilt. People move to St. Johns to be left alone they do not like media in there town. This case was handled all wrong and it hurts to know a small child has to go threw all this. I pray every night that god has his arms wrapped around him. I read; correct me if I am wrong, but is there a missing gun??? If so WTH :scared: Sorry so long:rolleyes:

Thanks for the post. I too wonder what the grandparents will say if we ever get to hear from them. We will just have to wait and see.

[GentleBreeze]

[QUOTE=Hawk;12734369]

Just don't start answering yourself and you'll be alright!:laugh:

Well I am getting so darned confused I just might! LOL!:biggrin:

[Details]

All kids lie. It's even a developmental step - how they lie, why they lie. To have the view that because the kid lied about something makes him an awful lying disordered child - it's just not true.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4566602&page=1

[GentleBreeze]

This comment shows me you have not adequately watched the interrogation. Of course EVERYTHING after he tells them about finding the bodies was COERCED.

My laptop battery is dying. I'm getting ready to loose power. Good night all!

I have watched it so many times my eyes are crossed!:w00t:

Good night!

[TaraCrazyHair]

Wow. My estimate on this little Chipmunk .22 is about 12 seconds per fire, with any accuracy. But others say it can be done effectively in 6 seconds or less. The time difference is mainly in the reloading process because the cartridges are so little. Small fingers are much better suited to the process.

What would the timing be with an inexperienced eight year old hitman shooting at authority whom he loved with shaking arms and trembling fingers?

Any guesstimate?

[Hawk]

Imagine this: Your son is dead. The police have just lied to you, told you that the child knew details of the crime scene that only the killer could have known, such as that the father was shot in the chest (this, BTW, was not true). You don't have reason to believe the police are liars, not at this point, and you are hardly in a state to be thinking clearly. If you've got any past debates with your son about discipline (and it seems like they did), it's pretty easy for me to see how she'd say that, try to rationalize what she thinks happened.

She was presented with a fact - the child killed them, absolutely true, because he knows things he couldn't possibly know otherwise. She was attempting to fit it into her world.

Her conviction about his guilt seems stronger than that. I don't think it just occurred to her when told by Chief Melnick. I think she went to there expecting the result that happened.

Just my opinion.

[GentleBreeze]

Wow. My estimate on this little Chipmunk .22 is about 12 seconds per fire, with any accuracy. But others say it can be done effectively in 6 seconds or less. The time difference is mainly in the reloading process because the cartridges are so little. Small fingers are much better suited to the process.


It sure doesn't take but seconds that is for sure. And you are right. This gun is made for a small child's fingers and hands.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Her conviction about his guilt seems stronger than that. I don't think it just occurred to her when told by Chief Melnick. I think she went to there expecting the result that happened.

Just my opinion.


I agree. I think as that poor woman held the boy she knew in her gut that he had done this.

What a terrible realization to have to deal with for a grandmother.

imoo

[Hawk]

What would the timing be with an inexperienced eight year old hitman shooting at authority whom he loved with shaking arms and trembling fingers?

Any guesstimate?

I've never personally known such an individual. And I don't know that he had an adrenaline rush or trembling fingers. If he did it he must have been enjoying it.
That's a lot of shots. The last ones for no apparent reason.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Her conviction about his guilt seems stronger than that. I don't think it just occurred to her when told by Chief Melnick. I think she went to there expecting the result that happened.

Just my opinion.

Do you think she suspected sexual abuse and that is why she clammed up?

[TaraCrazyHair]

I've never personally known such an individual. And I don't know that he had an adrenaline rush or trembling fingers. If he did it he must have been enjoying it.
That's a lot of shots. The last ones for no apparent reason.

And that is what goes in his favor

No eight year old has that type of control under those circumstances

No way!

[Hawk]

Do you think she suspected sexual abuse and that is why she clammed up?

Don't know anything about that sort of thing. But if she did, dear GOD, it wouldn't have been his............ I ain't even gonna think about such a thing. Sorry.

[TaraCrazyHair]

What exactly made him afraid to go home after school every day that he "walked the block for two hours"?

Did he walk the block waiting for the house to be clear so he felt safe going home?

[muska]

Imagine this: Your son is dead. The police have just lied to you, told you that the child knew details of the crime scene that only the killer could have known, such as that the father was shot in the chest (this, BTW, was not true). You don't have reason to believe the police are liars, not at this point, and you are hardly in a state to be thinking clearly. If you've got any past debates with your son about discipline (and it seems like they did), it's pretty easy for me to see how she'd say that, try to rationalize what she thinks happened.

She was presented with a fact - the child killed them, absolutely true, because he knows things he couldn't possibly know otherwise. She was attempting to fit it into her world.

This is very possible. I hope we eventually get to hear from her.

I have seen at least two posts at local news sites from people who said that the chief was not wanted at VR's funeral. That may say something about how the Romeros felt about the way the chief treated them.

[Hawk]

And that is what goes in his favor

No eight year old has that type of control under those circumstances

No way!

Okay. Don't know anything about that either.
But he may be different than the 8 year old boys you and I know, or have known.

[GentleBreeze]

Do you think she suspected sexual abuse and that is why she clammed up?

I don't. I think she meant they were strict on him and no grandmother agrees with that.

When she said that she knew he was capable of doing this is when the grandfather urged her to tell more. I think he wanted her to tell the Chief about why this boy would be capable of doing something like this.

Has the spanking that he was supposed to have gotten the night before ever been confirmed as really happening? I question his truthfulness since I think the 1000 spanking statement was a falsehood also.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

Don't know anything about that sort of thing. But if she did, dear GOD, it wouldn't have been his............ I ain't even gonna think about such a thing. Sorry.

It could very well be the circumstance

And it was not the 1000th spanking ... per se

Would explain his reluctance not to rush inside the house everyday after school

and would certainly explain his rage at the breaking point

If that was the situation

[muska]

I think everyone needs to go back and read that report again. I never realized this until now, but Liz never says the part about if any 8 year old was capable of it it was the boy....LeRoy says it.

Liz said she knew something like this would happen. They were too hard on the boy. Then she stops and LeRoy tries to get her to keep going. LeRoy then states if any 8 year old was capable it was the boy.

That is a HUGE difference than what I have thought all along. I think the original view was Liz sayiing this came from a newspaper article, but this is the actual police report from Chief Melnick.

Which is actually correct???
:ohmy:

What did the grandfather mean by saying he was capable anyway? Leroy could be saying CR knew how to shoot the gun well. Who knows?

[GentleBreeze]

What exactly made him afraid to go home after school every day that he "walked the block for two hours"?

Did he walk the block waiting for the house to be clear so he felt safe going home?

Why would he do that. On the days he said he walked no one was home.:confused:

imoo

[Aradia5]

I think everyone needs to go back and read that report again. I never realized this until now, but Liz never says the part about if any 8 year old was capable of it it was the boy....LeRoy says it.

Liz said she knew something like this would happen. They were too hard on the boy. Then she stops and LeRoy tries to get her to keep going. LeRoy then states if any 8 year old was capable it was the boy.

That is a HUGE difference than what I have thought all along. I think the original view was Liz sayiing this came from a newspaper article, but this is the actual police report from Chief Melnick.

Which is actually correct???
:ohmy:
That does make a difference I think.

[Hawk]

I think everyone needs to go back and read that report again. I never realized this until now, but Liz never says the part about if any 8 year old was capable of it it was the boy....LeRoy says it.

Liz said she knew something like this would happen. They were too hard on the boy. Then she stops and LeRoy tries to get her to keep going. LeRoy then states if any 8 year old was capable it was the boy.

That is a HUGE difference than what I have thought all along. I think the original view was Liz sayiing this came from a newspaper article, but this is the actual police report from Chief Melnick.

Which is actually correct???
:ohmy:

It was grandma. Supplemental Report #4, page 3, 1st paragraph.
Grandpa does repeat it. But grandma said it first.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I don't. I think she meant they were strict on him and no grandmother agrees with that.

When she said that she knew he was capable of doing this is when the grandfather urged her to tell more. I think he wanted her to tell the Chief about why this boy would be capable of doing something like this.

Has the spanking that he was supposed to have gotten the night before ever been confirmed as really happening? I question his truthfulness since I think the 1000 spanking statement was a falsehood also.

imoo

I am looking at it from her words

He cuddled up to her all night

Like he was almost free from his pain .. and I am not thinking pain free from spankings

What IF .. there was sexual abuse?

I realize that has not been discussed but that certainly would make an 8 year old reach a breaking point if he knew it wrong

and that certainly is the last thing the mother of a dead man would tell the cops when her grandson was just arrested for his murder

Certainly fits

"If anyone was capable of this, it was him"

Maybe she never really believed him until the murders

Tossing probabilities around

[GentleBreeze]

It was grandma. Supplemental Report #4, page 3, 1st paragraph.
Grandpa does repeat it. But grandma said it first.

Yes, they are both in agreement.

imoo

[Aradia5]

Why would he do that. On the days he said he walked no one was home.:confused:

imoo

How far is his bus stop to his house? Does he get off the bus with other kids? I have so many questions. :mellow:

[muska]

It was grandma. Supplemental Report #4, page 3, 1st paragraph.
Grandpa does repeat it. But grandma said it first.

These comments were written down by the chief. I am not counting on their complete accuracy. Time may tell!

Do you really think the grandmother said that and then the grandfather repeated the exact words.......kind of like a parrot? I think it will turn out to be another mistake. One of them may have said it, not both.

[GentleBreeze]

How far is his bus stop to his house? Does he get off with other kids? I have so many questions. :mellow:


I really don't know Aradia, there was a map put up at one time of the area. It is a small neighborhood so I would think he was let out very close to home.

imoo

[Aradia5]

It was grandma. Supplemental Report #4, page 3, 1st paragraph.
Grandpa does repeat it. But grandma said it first.

Where is that report? Thank you.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Why would he do that. On the days he said he walked no one was home.:confused:

imoo

They would have gotten off work shortly after he got off school

before the bars

I dont know .. sounds to me like a child afraid to go home

Why?


Most kids run from the bus to the house

He dwaddled

[muska]

Where is that report? Thank you.

Look at how the chief has both grandparents saying the same exact words right after each other........"if any boy could do this...." No way they both said the exact same thing. Why would they?

[Hawk]

Where is that report? Thank you.

This is where most of the reports are listed. The one you want is supplemental report #4.


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=435515258&blogID=463437844

[TaraCrazyHair]

These comments were written down by the chief. I am not counting on their complete accuracy. Time may tell!

Do you really think the grandmother said that and then the grandfather repeated the exact words.......kind of like a parrot? I think it will turn out to be another mistake. One of them may have said it, not both.

Or maybe they had private conversations many times

And then it finally happens

And now grandpa is telling grandma to tell LE what she has been bugging his ear about

Or maybe i am just so blasted tired I need to sleep and not make this more than what it really is

(:

But as a former child of being afraid to go home .. I can count the possibilities

[Hawk]

They would have gotten off work shortly after he got off school

before the bars

I dont know .. sounds to me like a child afraid to go home

Why?


Most kids run from the bus to the house

He dwaddled

That's what I thought too. Many young boys are afraid to be home by themselves.

[GentleBreeze]

They would have gotten off work shortly after he got off school

before the bars

I don't know .. sounds to me like a child afraid to go home

Why?


Most kids run from the bus to the house

He dwaddled

I don't see where you are getting that. He said he only walked the neighborhood when Tiff was going to be late. He admitted he wasn't suppose to be doing that.

Sounds like a typical child to me..........when the cats are away the mice will play.

He seemed to be a typical kid that had a good life. He was active in sports,soccer, skateboarding, hunting, fishing with his dad and even had an ATV. The townspeople said his dad doted on him and he went everywhere with his dad. He and his dad would be seen outside playing basketball and he had friends in the neighborhood.



imoo

[Hawk]

Look at how the chief has both grandparents saying the same exact words right after each other........"if any boy could do this...." No way they both said the exact same thing. Why would they?

Well, most of the family was there in the same room when she said it. They heard it too.
Why would the chief lie?

[IAMME]

Or maybe they had private conversations many times

And then it finally happens

And now grandpa is telling grandma to tell LE what she has been bugging his ear about

Or maybe i am just so blasted tired I need to sleep and not make this more than what it really is

(:

But as a former child of being afraid to go home .. I can count the possibilities


or maybe they were talking about the convo they had when tiffany was pointing her finger at the boy......and the possibility they knew he was gonna cover for her....there are too many possibilities.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, most of the family was there in the same room when she said it. They heard it too.
Why would the chief lie?

And sometimes other family members will repeat the same thing after another has said it, as an affirmation that they totally agree.

[Jacobtk]

So if the CPS statement is tossed by the judge, does that make the second warrant invalid? After all, it was obtained based on those inadmissable statements.

It would depend on whether the judge decides that the search warrant was requested in good faith, i.e. the police had no reason to believe the statements were illegally obtained. However, that seems unlikely. It is reasonable to assume that the officers who requested the warrant were aware that the boy had attorneys who were not informed of their client's statements.

[Hawk]

And sometimes other family members will repeat the same thing after another has said it, as an affirmation that they totally agree.

Why sure. It'd be more than a stretch that the words weren't said. The comments were even reported by several news agencies.

[GentleBreeze]

That's what I thought too. Many young boys are afraid to be home by themselves.

Well you know my opinion. lol I no more believe he walked around the block almost a dozen times for two hours that day.

imo

[Jacobtk]

I just don't think that happened. He wasn't tense at all in his interview and being in detention for three months he would have sung like a canary by now imo.

I am around abused children, many of whom were threatened not to tell. I went through the same experiences as did my brothers and cousins. In most instances the threats made do not involve weapons. They are just verbal intimidation. If it is reasonable that a child being physically or sexually abused would remain silent about that abuse until late adulthood because of a verbal threat, it is reasonable that a child threatened with a weapon who may have witnessed two men being killed would remain silent.

Keep in mind that no one in the detention center is on the boy's side and they do not care for him on any level. They are not allowed to be his friend, so he has no reason to confide in them at all.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I don't see where you are getting that. He said he only walked the neighborhood when Tiff was going to be late. He admitted he wasn't suppose to be doing that.

Sounds like a typical child to me..........when the cats are away the mice will play.

He seemed to be a typical kid that had a good life. He was active in sports,soccer, skateboarding, hunting, fishing with his dad and even had an ATV. The townspeople said his dad doted on him and he went everywhere with his dad. He and his dad would be seen outside playing basketball and he had friends in the neighborhood.



imoo

Or when Tiffany was supposed to be home .. he was safe because bad things could not happen then

I know i am reaching ..

It is because I am tired and this case is so complex

But we could make any scenerio work out until we get facts

Which we have nothing new

But if I had to place an 8 year old boy as a murderer of two men .. I jump to molestation

Or he is innocent

Just me!

(:

Night

[Hawk]

I am around abused children, many of whom were threatened not to tell. I went through the same experiences as did my brothers and cousins. In most instances the threats made do not involve weapons. They are just verbal intimidation. If it is reasonable that a child being physically or sexually abused would remain silent about that abuse until late adulthood because of a verbal threat, it is reasonable that a child threatened with a weapon who may have witnessed two men being killed would remain silent.

Keep in mind that no one in the detention center is on the boy's side and they do not care for him on any level. They are not allowed to be his friend, so he has no reason to confide in them at all.

You don't know that. They have 13 beds at the facility and he's the youngest one there. This isn't LA or Chicago. These are small town people who know the kid's families. Each case is a topic of discussion around the dinner table.

[GentleBreeze]

I am around abused children, many of whom were threatened not to tell. I went through the same experiences as did my brothers and cousins. In most instances the threats made do not involve weapons. They are just verbal intimidation. If it is reasonable that a child being physically or sexually abused would remain silent about that abuse until late adulthood because of a verbal threat, it is reasonable that a child threatened with a weapon who may have witnessed two men being killed would remain silent.

Keep in mind that no one in the detention center is on the boy's side and they do not care for him on any level. They are not allowed to be his friend, so he has no reason to confide in them at all.


I don't think so, especially if the abuser is dead. Although I do not believe the boy was abused or is covering up for anyone.

Most of the time children who are suffering from abuse by a victimizer aren't locked up in detention for 3 months accused of murder. He would have sung like a canary by now imo. I am sure he likes being home with mommy and would like to make it permanent.

I am sure he is close to his attorneys, therapist and his mother and maybe others who come to visit him. It is not like he has no one.



imoo

[GentleBreeze]

You don't know that. They have 13 beds at the facility and he's the youngest one there. This isn't LA or Chicago. These are small town people who know the kid's families. Each case is a topic of discussion around the dinner table.

Right, I imagine it is quite folksy there and laid back.

It is such a small amount of children there.

imoo

[Hawk]

Or when Tiffany was supposed to be home .. he was safe because bad things could not happen then

I know i am reaching ..

It is because I am tired and this case is so complex

But we could make any scenerio work out until we get facts

Which we have nothing new

But if I had to place an 8 year old boy as a murderer of two men .. I jump to molestation

Or he is innocent

Just me!

(:

Night

If he's afraid of being by himself in an empty house he may well have waited as long as he could to go home.

[Jacobtk]

You don't know that. They have 13 beds at the facility and he's the youngest one there. This isn't LA or Chicago. These are small town people who know the kid's families. Each case is a topic of discussion around the dinner table.

That they know him does not change anything. Neckels knows him and what she did in the interrogation was tantamount to abuse.

[Hawk]

That they know him does not change anything. Neckels knows him and what she did in the interrogation was tantamount to abuse.

I disagree. I think she did her best. Commander Avila seemed the persecutor to me. Detective Neckel refused to cuff and arrest the boy. I think she still feels bad.

[muska]

Well, most of the family was there in the same room when she said it. They heard it too.
Why would the chief lie?

I think he recorded it incorrectly.

[Hawk]

I think he recorded it incorrectly.

Or you just don't want to believe it?

[Hawk]

Sorry...you are correct. I got thrown because I never realized that Leroy repeated it.

The big mystery? I just think that Liz was snuggling the kid and maybe he said something about being happy that his dad was gone and he wouldn't get spanked anymore. Or maybe that he was glad that he could live with her now or live with Eryn.

To me that would not show consciousness of guilt, but an unhappy little boy for whatever reason.

Now....if Tiffany had been putting ideas into their heads for some time...I don't know.

I think it would be near impossible for a step-mom to breech the love and trust between a grandmother and her grandson. Especially ones as close as these two.

Just my opinion.

[Jacobtk]

I don't think so, especially if the abuser is dead.

I have been involved in victim's advocacy for some time now. Most of the older men I have met and spoken with did not disclose their abuse until they were in their forties and fifties. Many waited years after their abuser died to speak out. You do not have to take my word for it. There are plenty of articles about how long victims, especially male victims, remain silent about their abuse.

Most of the time children who are suffering from abuse by a victimizer aren't locked up in detention for 3 months accused of murder. He would have sung like a canary by now imo.

I would suggest reading about child psychology and how threats effect them. I think the responses children have are more complicated than you would expect. If the boy was threatened he has no reason to talk, particularly if the threats were not made about him, but his family.

[muska]

I am around abused children, many of whom were threatened not to tell. I went through the same experiences as did my brothers and cousins. In most instances the threats made do not involve weapons. They are just verbal intimidation. If it is reasonable that a child being physically or sexually abused would remain silent about that abuse until late adulthood because of a verbal threat, it is reasonable that a child threatened with a weapon who may have witnessed two men being killed would remain silent.

Keep in mind that no one in the detention center is on the boy's side and they do not care for him on any level. They are not allowed to be his friend, so he has no reason to confide in them at all.

Of course, they can't really be his friend and he has to have been made to understand as well as possible that he is not free to speak with them. Whatever he says can be twisted/misinterpreted to mean something else. They are probably trying to be reasonably nice but I don't think they can do more than that.

[muska]

Right, I imagine it is quite folksy there and laid back.

It is such a small amount of children there.

imoo

It doesn't sound like a terribly friendly place to me. The kids aren't even allowed to have a picture of their mothers. Did you read the parent handbook? I am sure they are doing their best but I doubt very much if it is one bit laid back.

[Jacobtk]

I disagree. I think she did her best. Commander Avila seemed the persecutor to me. Detective Neckel refused to cuff and arrest the boy. I think she still feels bad.

Before she went to handcuff the boy, she entered the room and the boy pulled his hood over his head and told the other officer he did not want her in the room. Like many people who take advantage of children, she probably did not expect that he would not trust her after she turned on him. I think that was the reason she did not want to handcuff him, because she may have wanted to avoid causing a scene.

[muska]

Or you just don't want to believe it?

No, I think he recorded it incorrectly. I also think you have a lot more faith in LE than I do. That's fine....we all have our own experiences that make us lean one way or the other. Time may tell.

[Hawk]

I have been involved in victim's advocacy for some time now. Most of the older men I have met and spoken with did not disclose their abuse until they were in their forties and fifties. Many waited years after their abuser died to speak out. You do not have to take my word for it. There are plenty of articles about how long victims, especially male victims, remain silent about their abuse.



I would suggest reading about child psychology and how threats effect them. I think the responses children have are more complicated than you would expect. If the boy was threatened he has no reason to talk, particularly if the threats were not made about him, but his family.

Seems like a threat to his family would be rather futile in St. Johns where there's "about 100 Romero's". Doesn't seem logical to start a feud with such a large bunch.
What family members would they threaten him with? Grandpa ain't that old and is well known. Has his own rifle. Seems the type to get a little rowdy now and then.
He might welcome a vendetta against the killer of his son and recruit a rather large posse of Romero's to assist him.

[Hawk]

Before she went to handcuff the boy, she entered the room and the boy pulled his hood over his head and told the other officer he did not want her in the room. Like many people who take advantage of children, she probably did not expect that he would not trust her after she turned on him. I think that was the reason she did not want to handcuff him, because she may have wanted to avoid causing a scene.

That's not what she told Mr. Brewer under oath.

[Jacobtk]

Now....if Tiffany had been putting ideas into their heads for some time...I don't know.

Well, we do not have a clear idea of what the boy's relationship was with Tiffany. Perhaps he liked her and perhaps she liked him. Perhaps she did not want children, but tolerated the boy to be with Vincent. Based on her unwillingness to visit the boy while he was jailed, it would seem that their relationship was not that close. Even the boy's grandmother, who supposedly stated that he was capable of double murder, visits him.

[Aradia5]

I am not going for this dad abused son theory ya all are talking about. It just doesn't fit in my mind. If Tim was abusing him, he was close enough to his daddy to tell him about it...then his dad would have killed Tim. Don't ya think?

[Jacobtk]

That's not what she told Mr. Brewer under oath.

Given how she has gotten information less than correct in sworn testimony, I am not particularly inclined to trust her word. For example, in that interview she claimed that the preliminary ballistics report pointed to the boy, despite that two weeks later at the first December hearing Carlyon stated that his office had not received anything back to give to Brewer.

Seems like a threat to his family would be rather futile in St. Johns where there's "about 100 Romero's".

A child would not understand that. Assuming a threat was made, the boy would either have witnessed or heard the shootings or saw the aftermath. That could be enough to keep him quiet.

[Jacobtk]

I am not going for this dad abused son theory ya all are talking about. It just doesn't fit in my mind. If Tim was abusing him, he was close enough to his daddy to tell him about it...then his dad would have killed Tim. Don't ya think?

I do not think the boy was abused, although anything is possible. The one thing about the crime that sticks out is that Tim was shot so many times in more or less the same areas. Whoever did it wanted him very dead. Three shots to the head is a very specific act.

[denisel]

the witness list mentioned are special investigaters not from St. Johns. Narcotics investigaters. Was the boy a dope addict on top of being a murderer?

Just think these are special investigators so St. Johns LE doesnt screw up the case, not narcotics. JMO

[denisel]

Tiffany is on the list, but has she visited him once?

IMO she visited him once and asked him if he did it or not. IMO, once he answered, she was convinced he did it, she cut ties with him, knowing her husband was shot by him and she could have also been shot by him. IMO

[Aradia5]

IMO she visited him once and asked him if he did it or not. IMO, once he answered, she was convinced he did it, she cut ties with him, knowing her husband was shot by him and she could have also been shot by him. IMO

Is that an opinion scenario? :confused:

[denisel]

Is that an opinion scenario? :confused:

IMO, Yes. I'm guessing that juvenile detention facilities keep a record of all visits. I think anything the boy says in incarceration can be used against him also, jmo

[Aradia5]

IMO, Yes. I'm guessing that juvenile detention facilities keep a record of all visits. I think anything the boy says in incarceration can be used against him also, jmo

Used against him at his competency hearing? I read alot about this case last night, but I didn't see that part.

[rusure?]

They would have gotten off work shortly after he got off school

before the bars

I dont know .. sounds to me like a child afraid to go home

Why?


Most kids run from the bus to the house

He dwaddled

I have often wondered the very same thing. I loved going to school but hated with a passion to go home.

[denisel]

"In another police report released Wednesday, the boy's grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

Other documents were released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office. In one of them, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings.

She said she "knew this would happen" and said she had a feeling the boy committed the crimes.

"They were too hard on him," the police report quoted her as saying. "He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it."




She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html




Linda - would you try to keep a step son if you believed the boy killed your husband, and you thought if you had been home 10 minutes earlier, it could have been you (when there is a natural mother out there)? JMO but I would say bye bye...

[GentleBreeze]

Sorry...you are correct. I got thrown because I never realized that Leroy repeated it.

The big mystery? I just think that Liz was snuggling the kid and maybe he said something about being happy that his dad was gone and he wouldn't get spanked anymore. Or maybe that he was glad that he could live with her now or live with Eryn.

To me that would not show consciousness of guilt, but an unhappy little boy for whatever reason.

Now....if Tiffany had been putting ideas into their heads for some time...I don't know.

If my grandchild uttered words like that almost immediately after their parent's death, I would most certainly take it as COG and the hair would raise up on the back of my neck.

imoo

[FDInLaw]

"In another police report released Wednesday, the boy's grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

Other documents were released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office. In one of them, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings.

She said she "knew this would happen" and said she had a feeling the boy committed the crimes.

"They were too hard on him," the police report quoted her as saying. "He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.htmlIt would take some extremely abusive conditions to induce an eight year old to act in a homicidal manner. This admission does not paint the Grandparents in a good light. . . why they heck did they not step in and help this kid??? Either Granny is being dramatic or their reluctance to act is a grievous crime in and of itself.

MOO

[Hawk]

There will be no jury in this case.

Didn't say there would be.

[GentleBreeze]

I have been involved in victim's advocacy for some time now. Most of the older men I have met and spoken with did not disclose their abuse until they were in their forties and fifties. Many waited years after their abuser died to speak out. You do not have to take my word for it. There are plenty of articles about how long victims, especially male victims, remain silent about their abuse.



I would suggest reading about child psychology and how threats effect them. I think the responses children have are more complicated than you would expect. If the boy was threatened he has no reason to talk, particularly if the threats were not made about him, but his family.

Unfortunately, I don't have to read anything to know how threats from the abuser works for many years.

However;there is no evidence whatsoever, that this boy was being threatened by anyone or that there was even any abuse in his life.

I still think he would have sung like a canary especially since he knows he is safe guarded everywhere he goes.

Perhaps you can show me a link where an 8 year old child held out telling someone that they had been threatened by a supposed killer of their parent, when they have been accused of the killings?

Holding secrets about an abuser is common. Withholding information about threats from a killer, when the child has been accused of the murder themselves, I would think, is almost nonexistent, especially after being held in detention for three months. But if I am wrong, I am sure you will show me such case where it happened concerning a child this age,.

imoo

[denisel]

It would take some extremely abusive conditions to induce an eight year old to act in a homicidal manner. This admission does not paint the Grandparents in a good light. . . why they heck did they not step in and help this kid??? Either Granny is being dramatic or their reluctance to act is a grievous crime in and of itself.

MOO

It will be nice when the transcripts are finally released when they did indepth interviews later...by HARD, do they mean too much grounding, no tv privileges, spanking or real physical abuse. I guess we won't know until we see transcripts or LIZ clarifies. JMO

[Hawk]

Hawk, I know ya didn't...don't know why it copied your post? :confused:

I know. It's been doing that lately. Makes things a little confusing. Causes folks to get into fights they weren't even party to. Keeps things going, though.