2/1-

[rusure?]

I also think it is rock solid.

However, the boy's story is pretty unbelieveable.

I checked Saint Johns Unified School District website this morning to see times that K-3 get out of school. No luck. So I called Coronado Elementary School and spoke to the office secretary, Ms Hooe. She said k-1 gets out at 2:15 and grades 2-3 get out at 2:20. Then I asked about bus times. She connected me with the "bus barn". I guess it's their transporatation dept. for the Unified school. I was advised that the driver for that route is a MS Hawes. The neighborhood in question drops off K-3 from 2:45 to 3pm (which is much earlier than I realized). Now the boy told police he walked around the block. If you are to believe the boy's story that would mean he would have had to walk 2 hours or 2 hours and 15 minutes, which I find unrealistic. I don't know if I can walk 2 hours. Also I find it unrealistic that none of the other children or parents have come forward to say they saw the boy. I also checked weather for Nov. 5th. The high was 48 degrees but it was a windy day with gusts to 33mph. From 3-5pm the temperature surely dropped a little. That's pretty cold for a boy to walk 2 hours. Either way that's 2 hours of unaccounted for time, with no verifiable alibi. And why he chose this day to walk as opposed to any other day is beyond me. Not that I'm a highly suspicious person, but the boy's story makes no sense. Anyway my 2 cents worth. JMO

If it was that cold, how in the world could Tiffany have stood and talked to the Kirks in the parking lot for close to 30 minutes? Her reciept for the second store trip was approximately 4:45. She was in NAPA at 5:14. NAPA is next to the store, iirc.

[Hawk]

To me the time line is impossible for him to do anything he said he did that day. No time for him to come walking up the street casually. No time to put his book bag under the table or sit by his father's side.

There wasn't time for anything except once the shooter knew they were both dead but to leave the gun on the cage and get the heck out of there and run to the neighbors.

But there is plenty of unaccounted time that shows he could have been in the home waiting for Vinnie to walk in that door. Plenty of time to get the weapon and the bullets and wait.

JMO of course

Someone was definitely waiting at the top of the stairs to blow Mr. Romero's brains out. And they did.

[rusure?]

He didn't choose just this day. He said he did this occasionally on Wednesdays and Fridays because those were the days his step-mother go home late.

I thought that was odd. Just on the days his step mom gets home late. Why not stay out because his dad didn't get home until around 5, every day? Why just stay out when step mom get home late?

[denisel]

Thank you for taking your time to call.

WOW even more unaccounted for time.

I have always thought the story about walking around the block was just a made up tale. It makes no sense and no sense that no one at all would see him making countless rounds around the block. It was like he was invisible. He said he saw Cage and waved but Cage never sees him? Never sees him at all, yet he says he continues to walk around and around. If he was just killing time then why not go over to Cage and talk with him? He had nothing else to do, he implies.

I don't think he walked around that block and that is why he wasn't seen. I think he went home when getting off the bus and gathered what he needed. Then he may have taken his book bag out in the kitchen and wrote his story of "My family" writing it at the table while he waited.

The transcripts state that Vinnie and Tim got off work everyday around 4:30 so this boy would be very well aware of that and when his dad would usually be arriving.

imoo

I would think you would have to have a key to get in.

That's why I tend to doubt the white car theory. I believe I read a post that Leroy, the grandfather, has a white car, but he would have to have a key to get in. Even if he had a key, why would you kill your own boy? I would think only family members would have keys.

Thusly I suspect CR waited patiently for 2 hours to plan the deed. All of the bullets would be ready. He would pick his spot to ambush. And wait patiently. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

He could easily have walked casually down the road and thrown his backpack under the table. The kid had little sense of time - he said his step-mother would be home at 5 and that was 3 or 4 hours away. Maybe he couldn't even tell time. But the "confession" is out anyway and I personally do not think there is any way of knowing what is or is not true in it. The boy, IMO, was just making "nice conversation." I think that any number of people could have been the shooter. There just isn't anything that rules out other possibilities.

The confession is out but not what he told the officers the day of the murder about what happened when he came upon the scene will be allowed.

But to me it shows right of the bat, he was lying about walking around and around the block for almost two hours and yet conveniently he says no one saw him. Even then he was trying to distance himself from being inside the home.

imoo

[muska]

How far from there home?

Less than 2 minutes.

[muska]

The confession is out but not what he told the officers the day of the murder about what happened when he came upon the scene will be allowed.

But to me it shows right of the bat, he was lying about walking around and around the block for almost two hours and yet conveniently he says no one saw him. Even then he was trying to distance himself from being inside the home.

imoo

We will have to agree to disagree.

[rusure?]

I would think you would have to have a key to get in.

That's why I tend to doubt the white car theory. I believe I read a post that Leroy, the grandfather, has a white car, but he would have to have a key to get in. Even if he had a key, why would you kill your own boy? I would think only family members would have keys.

Thusly I suspect CR waited patiently for 2 hours to plan the deed. All of the bullets would be ready. He would pick his spot to ambush. And wait patiently. JMO

Absolutely no 8 year old child waits patiently for 2 hours for anythingIMO. Any moms or dads out there that has ever had their child wait patiently for 2 hours for anything????

[muska]

I thought that was odd. Just on the days his step mom gets home late. Why not stay out because his dad didn't get home until around 5, every day? Why just stay out when step mom get home late?

Maybe he didn't like being in the house alone.

[rusure?]

The confession is out but not what he told the officers the day of the murder about what happened when he came upon the scene will be allowed.

But to me it shows right of the bat, he was lying about walking around and around the block for almost two hours and yet conveniently he says no one saw him. Even then he was trying to distance himself from being inside the home.

imoo

To the child's knowledge, no one saw him, unless he went door to door and asked everybody in every house in the neighborhood. Did LE go house to house to ask anyone in the neighborhood.

[muska]

Absolutely no 8 year old child waits patiently for 2 hours for anythingIMO. Any moms or dads out there that has ever had their child wait patiently for 2 hours for anything????

None that I have ever met!

[Aradia5]

The confession is out but not what he told the officers the day of the murder about what happened when he came upon the scene will be allowed.

But to me it shows right of the bat, he was lying about walking around and around the block for almost two hours and yet conveniently he says no one saw him. Even then he was trying to distance himself from being inside the home.

imoo

Noone saw the shooting either did they? Maybe the block is isolated?

[denisel]

If it was that cold, how in the world could Tiffany have stood and talked to the Kirks in the parking lot for close to 30 minutes? Her reciept for the second store trip was approximately 4:45. She was in NAPA at 5:14. NAPA is next to the store, iirc.

All I did was look up the weather on line for that day. Anyone can look up the weather for that day online and make up their own opinion, but 30 minutes for an adult is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid. JMO

[Hawk]

I would think you would have to have a key to get in.

That's why I tend to doubt the white car theory. I believe I read a post that Leroy, the grandfather, has a white car, but he would have to have a key to get in. Even if he had a key, why would you kill your own boy? I would think only family members would have keys.

Thusly I suspect CR waited patiently for 2 hours to plan the deed. All of the bullets would be ready. He would pick his spot to ambush. And wait patiently. JMO

And the only logical explanation thus far.

[GentleBreeze]

We will have to agree to disagree.

It isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, Muska imo. It is about everyone expressing their own views.

I do understand you take on things but I just do not see it as you do but that never should stop debating the case.

I welcome all posts and read them all, even when they disagree with my take on the issues.

imoo

[rusure?]

Does anybody remember anything about a Western Union receipt? It's included in the states 2nd disclosure. That is the one with all of the personal items on it, but it doesn't list a receipt in their things. Also there is a check in/out Stonestreet Thomas M. listed in what looks like VR's things.

Could Thomas M. be a relative of Eryn's? Could be a last name first initial listing on a check in/out receipt.

I wondered about the Western Union receipt. I thought maybe it had something to do with all that cash that both victims had on them.

[dgfred]

I would think you would have to have a key to get in.

That's why I tend to doubt the white car theory. I believe I read a post that Leroy, the grandfather, has a white car, but he would have to have a key to get in. Even if he had a key, why would you kill your own boy? I would think only family members would have keys.

Thusly I suspect CR waited patiently for 2 hours to plan the deed. All of the bullets would be ready. He would pick his spot to ambush. And wait patiently. JMO

Unless he had a clip for the 22 rounds, I still don't think he did it. I don't have any major problems thinking the kid did it, except for the difficulty of shooting 10 or so times with a bolt-action 22. So he planned the shooting of his dad for 2 hrs or so, then adapted his plan accordingly when he realized Tim was there too.... yeah right???

[Hawk]

Absolutely no 8 year old child waits patiently for 2 hours for anythingIMO. Any moms or dads out there that has ever had their child wait patiently for 2 hours for anything????


He had no choice but to be patient. He couldn't force the men home any earlier.

Kids will wait when they have to.

[denisel]

Thank you for taking your time to call.

WOW even more unaccounted for time.

I have always thought the story about walking around the block was just a made up tale. It makes no sense and no sense that no one at all would see him making countless rounds around the block. It was like he was invisible. He said he saw Cage and waved but Cage never sees him? Never sees him at all, yet he says he continues to walk around and around. If he was just killing time then why not go over to Cage and talk with him? He had nothing else to do, he implies.

I don't think he walked around that block and that is why he wasn't seen. I think he went home when getting off the bus and gathered what he needed. Then he may have taken his book bag out in the kitchen and wrote his story of "My family" writing it at the table while he waited.

The transcripts state that Vinnie and Tim got off work everyday around 4:30 so this boy would be very well aware of that and when his dad would usually be arriving.

imoo

Gentlebreeze- the more I think about 2 hours is an awful long time...jmo

[GentleBreeze]

All I did was look up the weather on line for that day. Anyone can look up the weather for that day online and make up their own opinion, but 30 minutes for an adult is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid. JMO

It also shows me why the shots to Vinnie weren't heard. If it was that cold and the wind chill factor made it even colder, when Vinnie walked through his door, he would have shut the main door to keep the cold from coming into his home or letting the heat escape.

imoo

[muska]

All I did was look up the weather on line for that day. Anyone can look up the weather for that day online and make up their own opinion, but 30 minutes for an adult is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid. JMO

I think kids that age tend to feel the cold less than adults. You know how parents always have to tell them to come in and get a jacket, that kind of thing. This kid's clothes were very dirty according to Neckel. That suggest he was playing outside. Maybe he found some interesting bugs or a snake or a tortoise or whatever they have in Arizona that would be of interest to a young boy. One or two good finds could take up a lot of time. Also, on the "confession' tape, it's obvious the kid has a terrible cough....maybe too much time outside the day before without a jacket.

[dgfred]

The bloody face comment to me probably meant the dad was dead when he first saw him... already suffered a headshot. What do y'all think?

[muska]

And the only logical explanation thus far.

This may turn out to be what happened. But I think it is one of the least likely logical explanations thus far.

[GentleBreeze]

Gentlebreeze- the more I think about 2 hours is an awful long time...jmo

Yes, that is a lot of time on one's hands.

imoo

[Hawk]

This may turn out to be what happened. But I think it is one of the least likely logical explanations thus far.


Unfortunately no one has come up with a doable alternate scenario that put the pieces together one by one.
I wish some one would.

[muska]

Unless he had a clip for the 22 rounds, I still don't think he did it. I don't have any major problems thinking the kid did it, except for the difficulty of shooting 10 or so times with a bolt-action 22. So he planned the shooting of his dad for 2 hrs or so, then adapted his plan accordingly when he realized Tim was there too.... yeah right???

The boy's rifle may have been easy to shoot when in casual situations but that says nothing about what it would take in the kind of pressured situation that this would have involved.

[denisel]

I think kids that age tend to feel the cold less than adults. You know how parents always have to tell them to come in and get a jacket, that kind of thing. This kid's clothes were very dirty according to Neckel. That suggest he was playing outside. Maybe he found some interesting bugs or a snake or a tortoise or whatever they have in Arizona that would be of interest to a young boy. One or two good finds could take up a lot of time. Also, on the "confession' tape, it's obvious the kid has a terrible cough....maybe too much time outside the day before without a jacket.

Muska-I agree, it's possible. It's also possible the kid wore the same clothes 2 days. Little boys don't care about clean clothes. It's also possible the clothes got dirty at the two 15 minute recesses that day or the half hour lunch recess. I just have a hard time believing he was outside for 2 hours. Kids get hungry, they want to go to the bathrrrom, they want to watch tv. I concentrate more on probabilities than possibilities. For example it's possible the Pope is Jewish. JMO

[Aradia5]

If the men were home one to two minutes after passing the Circle K, that puts them home at 4:40 to 4:41 pm. That isn't two hours from 3 o'clock when the boy got off the bus. Playing outside for an hour and a half or so isn't very odd for a child his age is it? Maybe I'm wrong.

[muska]

Noone saw the shooting either did they? Maybe the block is isolated?

You are right! I always wonder about this when some say that no one saw the boy outside. Well..........no one, apparently, saw anything.

[dgfred]

From the Womack report:

A co-worker told Womack that VR kept his rifles in a the living room in hard shelled cases. He said he had been to VR's house and VR had shown them to him. (Mark Mercer) So I wonder why many seem to be so sure that the guns were kept upstairs under the bed. It seems they were kept in different places.....no reason not to believe the co-worker.

Perhaps one or more was out and available to an intruder that day.

If like everything else in that house... probably just placed here and there throughout the house.

Anybody got any news on the 'missing' 22 Rifle? :confused:

[rusure?]

All I did was look up the weather on line for that day. Anyone can look up the weather for that day online and make up their own opinion, but 30 minutes for an adult is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid. JMO

And I thank you for that.
I realize 30 minutes is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid.
30 minutes for an adult to be standing out in the parking lot in 48 degree temps with wind gusts of 33mph is too long for chit chat. I know I wouldn't and I know lots of adults who wouldn't either.

[muska]

If the men were home one to two minutes after passing the Circle K, that puts them home at 4:40 to 4:41 pm. That isn't two hours from 3 o'clock when the boy got off the bus. Playing outside for an hour and a half or so isn't very odd for a child his age is it? Maybe I'm wrong.

We have been going with cell phone records that had the men arriving home at 4:52. I think those cell phone records may be wrong. they may have been home as early as 4:40.

[denisel]

And I thank you for that.
I realize 30 minutes is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid.
30 minutes for an adult to be standing out in the parking lot in 48 degree temps with wind gusts of 33mph is too long for chit chat. I know I wouldn't and I know lots of adults who wouldn't either.

It was fun chatting guys. I've got to get to work.

[dgfred]

The boy's rifle may have been easy to shoot when in casual situations but that says nothing about what it would take in the kind of pressured situation that this would have involved.

Hurray! This is what I have been saying all along and the thing that brings me back to another shooter(s) each time. I will not bend on the difficulty of moving about and shooting grown men, while loading a bolt-action rifle, under stress, without dropping shells... either two shooters or an auto-fire rifle like the 'missing' one.

[rusure?]

Muska-I agree, it's possible. It's also possible the kid wore the same clothes 2 days. Little boys don't care about clean clothes. It's also possible the clothes got dirty at the two 15 minute recesses that day or the half hour lunch recess. I just have a hard time believing he was outside for 2 hours. Kids get hungry, they want to go to the bathrrrom, they want to watch tv. I concentrate more on probabilities than possibilities. For example it's possible the Pope is Jewish. JMO

Parents of an 8 yo child would not let them wear noticably dirty clothes to school. That would be a red flag for child abuse/neglect

[GentleBreeze]

I think kids that age tend to feel the cold less than adults. You know how parents always have to tell them to come in and get a jacket, that kind of thing. This kid's clothes were very dirty according to Neckel. That suggest he was playing outside. Maybe he found some interesting bugs or a snake or a tortoise or whatever they have in Arizona that would be of interest to a young boy. One or two good finds could take up a lot of time. Also, on the "confession' tape, it's obvious the kid has a terrible cough....maybe too much time outside the day before without a jacket.

Even kids wear jackets when they play but he didn't say he was playing just walking. My son would come home with his jeans dirty from playing on the playground. He loved sitting in the dirt or kneeling on his knees on the playground when he was a child.

Yes, I heard his cough and couldn't help but think of what Vinnie put in his custody papers about every time the boy went with his mom, he came back sick and hacking.

imo

[Aradia5]

And I thank you for that.
I realize 30 minutes is a lot less time than 2 hours for a kid.
30 minutes for an adult to be standing out in the parking lot in 48 degree temps with wind gusts of 33mph is too long for chit chat. I know I wouldn't and I know lots of adults who wouldn't either.

33mph gusts. Is that confirmed? I would think it would make an aim and shoot be off also. I could be wrong though. I don't know much. :blushing:

[muska]

It also shows me why the shots to Vinnie weren't heard. If it was that cold and the wind chill factor made it even colder, when Vinnie walked through his door, he would have shut the main door to keep the cold from coming into his home or letting the heat escape.

imoo

But left the truck door open? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Hawk]

We have been going with cell phone records that had the men arriving home at 4:52. I think those cell phone records may be wrong. they may have been home as early as 4:40.

Cell phone times are accurate. They are transmitted from the CO via a tower. Not from an internal source.

[GentleBreeze]

It was fun chatting guys. I've got to get to work.

See ya, denisel.

See ya until you can get the time to come post again.

imoo

[rusure?]

We have been going with cell phone records that had the men arriving home at 4:52. I think those cell phone records may be wrong. they may have been home as early as 4:40.

YES!! That is the very point I've been trying to make about the timeline. That timeline I have believed all along was off.

Where was Tiffany between the time of the donut stop and the spaghetti stop? How long was she actually in the parking lot with the Kirks?

[GentleBreeze]

But left the truck door open? Doesn't make sense to me.

From what I saw it was just partially open. That may have been done because Vinnie was in a hurry and Tim got a call and didn't shut it back.

I do think they both were intending to leave very shortly to go help a friend build a chest of drawers.

[muska]

Muska-I agree, it's possible. It's also possible the kid wore the same clothes 2 days. Little boys don't care about clean clothes. It's also possible the clothes got dirty at the two 15 minute recesses that day or the half hour lunch recess. I just have a hard time believing he was outside for 2 hours. Kids get hungry, they want to go to the bathrrrom, they want to watch tv. I concentrate more on probabilities than possibilities. For example it's possible the Pope is Jewish. JMO

I think the probability is that he did not get very dirty during two 15 minute recesses. Also little boys don't care about dirty clothes but moms usually want to send them off reasonably clean. I just don't see an 8 year old necessarily going home. My kids played for hours in the woods behind our house at that age....sometimes alone. And this kid was supposedly grounded from watching TV - one less reason to go home.

[rusure?]

Cell phone times are accurate. They are transmitted from the CO via a tower. Not from an internal source.

Yes, but we have been going on believeing the human reported time, not the time from the cell phone records, which are not listed on the DA's disclosure lists. I think the cell phone records do not jive with the human reported times and that's why they are not listed in the disclosure statements.

[muska]

From what I saw it was just partially open. That may have been done because Vinnie was in a hurry and Tim got a call and didn't shut it back.

I do think they both were intending to leave very shortly to go help a friend build a chest of drawers.

I think he would have just left the house door open for that minute too. It really wasn't that cold.

[GentleBreeze]

He had no choice but to be patient. He couldn't force the men home any earlier.

Kids will wait when they have to.

Sure they do. He had to wait patiently this day just like he did on other Wednesdays and Fridays.

imoo

[muska]

Hurray! This is what I have been saying all along and the thing that brings me back to another shooter(s) each time. I will not bend on the difficulty of moving about and shooting grown men, while loading a bolt-action rifle, under stress, without dropping shells... either two shooters or an auto-fire rifle like the 'missing' one.

I could not possibly agree more.

[rusure?]

He had no choice but to be patient. He couldn't force the men home any earlier.

Kids will wait when they have to.

Have you ever seen or known of any child 8 yo, wait patiently, because they wanted something so deparately that they could wait, without going out and doing something else and then come right back to what they were waiting for and be focus to act?????

[GentleBreeze]

I think he would have just left the house door open for that minute too. It really wasn't that cold.

With a wind gust up to 33 mph, it felt very cold and blustery imo.

The men's heavy layered attire shows it felt cold to them imo.

The wind would whip into the home if he left the main door open and I am sure he was concerned about his power bill rising just like most everyone is.

imoo

[Hawk]

Yes, but we have been going on believeing the human reported time, not the time from the cell phone records, which are not listed on the DA's disclosure lists. I think the cell phone records do not jive with the human reported times and that's why they are not listed in the disclosure statements.

Right. I agree. The human time reports are simply estimates. Until (if) the cell phone records and 911 timestamped records are released time lines are mere guesswork and can go either way.

[rusure?]

The bloody face comment to me probably meant the dad was dead when he first saw him... already suffered a headshot. What do y'all think?

Absolutely

[Hawk]

Have you ever seen or known of any child 8 yo, wait patiently, because they wanted something so deparately that they could wait, without going out and doing something else and then come right back to what they were waiting for and be focus to act?????

I don't know who was patient or impatient or standing on his head in a corner.

I just don't see what he could have done differently.
Had he walked the neighborhood for any length of time he would have been seen. And perhaps he was. Maybe Cage saw him, or others. We don't know any of that. But the cops and Mr. Brewers investigator certainly do.

[rusure?]

Even kids wear jackets when they play but he didn't say he was playing just walking. My son would come home with his jeans dirty from playing on the playground. He loved sitting in the dirt or kneeling on his knees on the playground when he was a child.

Yes, I heard his cough and couldn't help but think of what Vinnie put in his custody papers about every time the boy went with his mom, he came back sick and hacking.

imo

Was he wearing a jacket?? LE did not collect a jacket when they got his other clothes. I would think he would have had a jacket on when the police got there. 48 degrees and 33mph winds? No jacket???

[rusure?]

33mph gusts. Is that confirmed? I would think it would make an aim and shoot be off also. I could be wrong though. I don't know much. :blushing:

Well, my husband did ask me which way the wind was blowing, but I don't think either of us thought of wind blowing at 33mph.

[Hawk]

The wind gusts were strong. But it always is at that altitude on the high plains.



http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSJN/2008/11/5/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

[rusure?]

And she was talking to the Kirks too.

Then the emergency call came in and they had to leave.

imoo

Why did Tiffany not hear the call if she was with them?

[Hawk]

He knew kids in the neighborhood. He got off the bus with them. Why wasn't he playing with any of them instead of walking aimlessly around the block?

[GentleBreeze]

Hurray! This is what I have been saying all along and the thing that brings me back to another shooter(s) each time. I will not bend on the difficulty of moving about and shooting grown men, while loading a bolt-action rifle, under stress, without dropping shells... either two shooters or an auto-fire rifle like the 'missing' one.

We have no idea if he dropped bullets. He simply could have picked them up if he did.

I still don't see why you think it is such an arduous task to shoot two unarmed men in this length of time.

What is the difference? He moves about quickly when spotting and shooting at small game and may have to reposition himself if further shots are needed.

If it were automatic fire there would not have been a delay or pause. The perp would have opened up and fired rapidly with a burst of shots.

I think what is being discounted is, if he was indeed the shooter, then it was an act that he was perfectly capable of carrying out. We have no idea if he was stressed when he fired. He may have thought no more about it than he did when killing an animal and was much more attentive on what he needed to do to get the job done. After the adrenaline rush had subsided he may have then become stressed.

imoo

[Hawk]

Why did Tiffany not hear the call if she was with them?

This isn't about Mrs. Romero. It's about proving/disproving the boy's story and whereabouts during the murders. He's the one charged.

[GentleBreeze]

Why did Tiffany not hear the call if she was with them?

You will have to ask the Kirks who were there talking to her.

I don't think for one second that she knew anything horrible had just happened at her home.

imoo

[rusure?]

Where dioes Tiffany's father live?
How did Tiffany know her father spoke to VR 15 minutes after she did?
Was it his gun that was also kept at the house?
Could he have talked to VR about coming and getting his gun. He talked via cell phone approximately at 4:45.

[Hawk]

Where dioes Tiffany's father live?
How did Tiffany know her father spoke to VR 15 minutes after she did?

Perhaps she spoke with her dad after the murders?

[rusure?]

This isn't about Mrs. Romero. It's about proving/disproving the boy's story and whereabouts during the murders. He's the one charged.

Is this thread not about the case and anyone can choose what questions they wish to ask????

[Crispy]

CW has never said we can't discuss Tiffany or any one else involved in this case.

[rusure?]

Read the thread heading, CW wrote it.

It's about the boy being accused of committing two murders

When discussing any case, all angles of the case and possible suspects are discussed.

The heading is "Case against child for 2 homicides"
The heading does not say "discussion to be about the child only"

[GentleBreeze]

Where dioes Tiffany's father live?
How did Tiffany know her father spoke to VR 15 minutes after she did?
Was it his gun that was also kept at the house?
Could he have talked to VR about coming and getting his gun. He talked via cell phone approximately at 4:45.

I don't know where her father lives. Maybe in St. John.

I have never heard he had a gun there.

Leroy, Vinnie's father had a gun there. Who knows, Leroy may have come by way before this even happened, to get it and use it to go hunting by himself or with someone else during a time when he knew Vinnie would be at work and couldnt go with him.

I doubt what he conversed with him had anything to do with guns. It may have been a friend of Tiff's father that the guys were going to help that afternoon.

imoo

[Hawk]

Is this thread not about the case and anyone can choose what questions they wish to ask????

By all means.
I was merely stating the case from the courts perspective. If the boy is found not guilty the case will be reopened to find the killer.
But for now the boy is the issue. Not Mrs. Romero.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have doubts.

[muska]

CW has never said we can't discuss Tiffany or any one else involved in this case.

You can't fully consider whether the boy did it or not without fully considering other possible suspects. There are various ways in which Tiffany could have had a role in all of this - some big, some small.

[Hawk]

You can't fully consider whether the boy did it or not without fully considering other possible suspects. There are various ways in which Tiffany could have had a role in all of this - some big, some small.

Yet with no explanation whatsoever of how she did it.

[muska]

By all means.
I was merely stating the case from the courts perspective. If the boy is found not guilty the case will be reopened to find the killer.
But for now the boy is the issue. Not Mrs. Romero.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have doubts.

If the boy is found not guilty, I think that's it. Neither St Johns police nor Mr. Carlyon would admit to a mistake.

[bkwits]

How would the meat go bad so fast? What, was it like 100 degrees in the car?

I am not even sure it was meat. Spaghetti has been mentioned several times. I wonder if it is cooked spaghetti like they have in the Deli at my supermarket?

[rusure?]

By all means.
I was merely stating the case from the courts perspective. If the boy is found not guilty the case will be reopened to find the killer.
But for now the boy is the issue. Not Mrs. Romero.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have doubts.

The court also involves the defense. Defending the boy also entails discussing other aspects of the case, including Mrs. Romero, and the Pope if he was around or related to the boy. Anyone related to the boy, any aquantence are fair game imo when discussing the "issue" of the boy's case.

[Details]

Yet with no explanation whatsoever of how she did it.There are a few explanations. The simplest is the old story of having someone else do it. It's hardly so impossible that she should be excluded, and her motives and actions ignored.

[muska]

Yet with no explanation whatsoever of how she did it.

As I have said before, I don't think she was the shooter. There are many other roles she could have played.

[rusure?]

Yet with no explanation whatsoever of how she did it.

Did anyone have an explanation of how the boy did it before discussing him first? Isn't that how LE took that giant leep in the early morning meeting before picking up the boy for more questioning? It works for others involved in this case. Yes, the boy is the defendant. He, however, has not been found guilty, except in the minds of some people.

[rusure?]

I am not even sure it was meat. Spaghetti has been mentioned several times. I wonder if it is cooked spaghetti like they have in the Deli at my supermarket?

That makes real sense. Does Wilbur's have cooked spaghetti?

[Hawk]

If the boy is found not guilty, I think that's it. Neither St Johns police nor Mr. Carlyon would admit to a mistake.

Mr. Carlyon will go to Navajo County where he was elected, and should be now. St. Johns will have a new Police Chief.

Mr. Whiting and the new Chief, in my opinion, will pursue this case indefinitely. That is, of course, if the boy if found innocent. Not just incompetent.

[Hawk]

There are a few explanations. The simplest is the old story of having someone else do it. It's hardly so impossible that she should be excluded, and her motives and actions ignored.

There's no evidence, that we're aware of that suggests she was involved.

[Crispy]

Yet with no explanation whatsoever of how she did it.

I personally don't believe that she pulled the trigger, but it is important to the case where she was etc. I'm halfway thinking of the random stranger/break in theory. So far, none of the scenarios are logical and I don't think we are going to be able to fit every little thing into a nice neat box. The gag is preventing us from knowing everything and what we do know is convoluted. jmo

[Hawk]

I personally don't believe that she pulled the trigger, but it is important to the case where she was etc. I'm halfway thinking of the random stranger/break in theory. So far, none of the scenarios are logical and I don't think we are going to be able to fit every little thing into a nice neat box. The gag is preventing us from knowing everything and what we do know is convoluted. jmo


In my modest opinion the random crackhead burglar is the only other scenario that can be adequately explained, makes sense, and fits the known evidence.

It would take too much luck for any of the others to do this. Not that the burglar wasn't extremely lucky. It just doesn't require the luck level of Mrs. Romero, or anyone else who knew these men.

[bkwits]

If the boy is found not guilty, I think that's it. Neither St Johns police nor Mr. Carlyon would admit to a mistake.

That's the way it goes in the cases around here (IL). Jim Ryan, DuPage Co. Atty, made his mark by prosecuting two young men for the rape and murder of a young girl (Jeanine Nicarico). He became IL. Atty Gen. because of that case. All the time telling the Nicarico family that the men were guilty though the convictions were overturned twice. He personally followed the case and put the accused young men through 3 trials. One sentence was commuted to 80 yrs. The other got the DP. Eric Zorn of the Cgo Trib, wrote extensively about this case and I followed it. The evidence did not match. The men had alibis.Another man confessed to the crime at one point. Ryan ignored all of this. Finally with the advent of sophisticated DNA, both men were cleared of the crimes.
The Nicarico family felt betrayed by Jim Ryan who had assured them continuously that the men did, and when it was proven they didn't. Well he said they were there.
When Cruz was pardoned and awarded millions (he was on death row for 11 yrs.), Ryan finally admitted that Cruz was innocent.
Ryan ran for governor and lost and IL got Blago.
So many, many times, it is all about them, the DA's the prosecutors, etc. They won't admit a mistake even to catch a killer. IMO

[bkwits]

I keep thinking about having a LEO living near by. Would someone dare enter a house and kill occupants if they were aware one of the neighbor's was a cop? In broad daylight?

What if this was just a burglary and the men coming home put a damper on it?

I was reading some statistics on violent crime. More than half are committed during the day. Most homicides are committed in the home or within a mile of home.

I do think it could have been a robbery.

IMO

[rusure?]

Absolutely none, I agree.

It seems to me accusing an innocent person that isn't even a suspect IRL of conspiring to have her husband murdered or murdering him herself is not only wrong, but probably illegal.

Who's accusing Mrs. Romero? Asking questions to pinpoint the timeline to a more accurate account as to everyone's whereabouts and goings on is not accusing anyone of anything. The timeline is the most important piece of evidence in this case someone said on this forum awhile back. The timeline as we have it now, does not jive with any logical explanation as to what really happened and when.

[Hawk]

IMO if they would murder two men over a simple burglary they would have taken the money.

Maybe it wasn't random. Maybe the killer was after a drug stash and wanted something in Mr. Romans pocket (that's why the cigarettes, lighter, and inhaler were found on the ground). Perhaps that's a reason for the ransacked appearance of the home.

[rusure?]

Maybe it wasn't random. Maybe the killer was after a drug stash and wanted something in Mr. Romans pocket (that's why the cigarettes, lighter, and inhaler were found on the ground). Perhaps that's a reason for the ransacked appearance of the home.

I wonder about that too.

[bkwits]

That makes real sense. Does Wilbur's have cooked spaghetti?

I don't know. I started to check and got sidetracked. I am adopting a sweet dog, and getting her tomorrow, so I am excited about that. :wub:

[rusure?]

2nd revised Timeline:
4:20-approximate time coworker says TR and VR left work (could be 4:25)
4:27-VR calls Tiffany and tells her he is on his way home from work
4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K
4:42-approximate time Tiffany’s father talked to VR
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 or 4 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teen’s dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans body
5:09-DN and Rodrigez arrives at the scene, speak to the boy, the 911 caller and another unknown man. Rodrigez enters house, EMT arrive during this time per DN’s report
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA and tells her he “saw his dad dead”
5:15-approximately per Melnick’s report. DN calls Chief Melnick. EMT’s already there.
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Something still does not jive with this timeline.

[Hawk]

That makes real sense. Does Wilbur's have cooked spaghetti?

You can call them at 928-337-2261 and ask.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know. I started to check and got sidetracked. I am adopting a sweet dog, and getting her tomorrow, so I am excited about that. :wub:

Congratulations!

I wouldn't think IGA would even have a deli, much less prepared spaghetti unless maybe in the frozen food section. I bet this is a very small independently owned store...sort of like a mom and pop outfit with just the basics.


imo

[Details]

There's no evidence, that we're aware of that suggests she was involved.At the start of any investigation, there's no evidence that suggests anyone is involved - you still look at everyone. Who knows what you find if you look.

And there is some evidence - means, motive, opportunity - she hits the jackpot on number 2. Motive is something to always look at. Doesn't mean she did it - not at all - but it's an element. Not just a motive - but a timely motive - Tim's been cheating for who knows how long, but right before he was killed he proposed. Could be the two actions are unrelated - but it's quite the coincidence, and worth a strong look at everyone who might have been upset by that proposal.

That'd be his wife, her family, his girlfriend, any ex's, jealous boyfriends, etc.


She'd not be the only suspect, and there are many others - but no reason not to discuss any suspect and how solid their alibi is, motives and any suspicious behavior, all that stuff.

[Hawk]

Yes they do, only on certain days in the bakery section

There you go. Good job!

[GentleBreeze]

2nd revised Timeline:
4:20-approximate time coworker says TR and VR left work (could be 4:25)
4:27-VR calls Tiffany and tells her he is on his way home from work
4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K
4:42-approximate time Tiffany’s father talked to VR
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 or 4 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teen’s dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans body
5:09-DN and Rodrigez arrives at the scene, speak to the boy, the 911 caller and another unknown man. Rodrigez enters house, EMT arrive during this time per DN’s report
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA and tells her he “saw his dad dead”
5:15-approximately per Melnick’s report. DN calls Chief Melnick. EMT’s already there.
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Something still does not jive with this timeline.

It looks pretty good to me.

Although I read that the neighbors thought they heard the shots around 5:05.

So how long do we think it would take for the boy to run to the home in back of his, tell the boy and for the boy to call his father to come home and the amount of time it took the father to get there in order to see Tim's body laying on the porch and call 911 by 5:03 pm.

I guesstimate all of that would take about 3-4 minutes, especially if the father was nearby the home when called.

imoo

[rusure?]

You can call them at 928-337-2261 and ask.

I didn't want to spend the money for a daytime long distance call. So I looked the store up via internet and found this review, which tells me that Tiffany may have gotten spaghetti already cooked. If Wilbur's serves breakfast, surely they serve other meals. IMO


MerchantCircle: Consumer Reviews:
We found 1 MerchantCircle review

Breakfast
We were at your store--for the 1st time--this past Sat & had a DELICIOUS breakfast--VERY good food--plenty of it & a very decent price (Don't know why other places--especially here in Show-low--can't follow suit)
Anyway--My husband LOVED the bacon--says it's best he's had in years--was almost like side-meat & wondered where you get it??!!??
We live in Linden, so unless diesel prices come down some--we won't get over there REAL often, but would like to know the resturant hours also. Thanks--Jane & Ron Harris (928-532-0209)
You have a real nice big store--Years ago there was one here in either Lakeside or Pinetop--but closed a long time ago


April 21, 2008 by *********** in Show Low, AZ

[GentleBreeze]

Yes they do, only on certain days in the bakery section

Thanks.

imoo

[Details]

The neighbors time simply just about must be wrong. 4:55 Tim hangs up, and wanders for 5 minutes before the shots are fired? It's a memory time, so it's no doubt a little off.

[bkwits]

If the men were home one to two minutes after passing the Circle K, that puts them home at 4:40 to 4:41 pm. That isn't two hours from 3 o'clock when the boy got off the bus. Playing outside for an hour and a half or so isn't very odd for a child his age is it? Maybe I'm wrong.

We don't know what time the child got off the bus. That has never been established. In a discussion previously, many thought it was much later than 3 pm.

[rusure?]

Yes they do, only on certain days in the bakery section

did you ask them which certain days?

[bkwits]

I didn't want to spend the money for a daytime long distance call. So I looked the store up via internet and found this review, which tells me that Tiffany may have gotten spaghetti already cooked. If Wilbur's serves breakfast, surely they serve other meals. IMO


MerchantCircle: Consumer Reviews:
We found 1 MerchantCircle review

Breakfast
We were at your store--for the 1st time--this past Sat & had a DELICIOUS breakfast--VERY good food--plenty of it & a very decent price (Don't know why other places--especially here in Show-low--can't follow suit)
Anyway--My husband LOVED the bacon--says it's best he's had in years--was almost like side-meat & wondered where you get it??!!??
We live in Linden, so unless diesel prices come down some--we won't get over there REAL often, but would like to know the resturant hours also. Thanks--Jane & Ron Harris (928-532-0209)
You have a real nice big store--Years ago there was one here in either Lakeside or Pinetop--but closed a long time ago


April 21, 2008 by *********** in Show Low, AZ

Yes, I read the same thing. I do think it was cooked spaghetti because it was referred to as spahetti, the receipt for the spaghetti dinner. et.
IMO

[Hawk]

I don't think he was walking aimlessly around. I think he is a liar, as he stated. I think he went home, dropped his bookbag under the table, went upstairs to get that gun and go play with it somewhere on his own. When he got back home he saw Tim laying there, dropped the gun on the cage, ran up, saw his dad and then ran and got the neighbor.

I think just about everything in his "confession" was a lie, especially the part of shooting two people.

I hope you're right.

[GentleBreeze]

The neighbors time simply just about must be wrong. 4:55 Tim hangs up, and wanders for 5 minutes before the shots are fired? It's a memory time, so it's no doubt a little off.

I agree, the time the neighbors think they heard shots is just an estimated time not like the other times when calls were actually placed. Those times will be documented and have supporting verification.

We know it couldnt be 5:05 because 911 had already been called by 5:03

imo

[Hawk]

What if they didn't have a chance to grab the money? They heard "someone":smile: calling Tim's name? They could have found what they came looking for in Tim's pocket.

I know everyone is sick of hearing about the dog but....What if the puppy didn't bark because she was familiar with the person in the house? I don't mean the boy.:smile:

Not as much as hamburger meat!!!!

[GentleBreeze]

What if they didn't have a chance to grab the money? They heard "someone":smile: calling Tim's name? They could have found what they came looking for in Tim's pocket.

I know everyone is sick of hearing about the dog but....What if the puppy didn't bark because she was familiar with the person in the house? I don't mean the boy.:smile:

I think poor puppy, Nellie was traumatized by all the gunfire going off in close proximity to her when she was in her cage. Wouldn't surprise me if that poor puppy wet herself since she was locked up and had no where to hide. I think she may have tried to wedge herself up in the corner of the kennel and whimpered.

Unless they are older fully trained dogs, most dogs are terrified of gunfire.

imoo

[Hawk]

I think that had the boy been home awhile she would have settled down in her cage. She'd been whining for him if he had just got there.
I also think the dog went berserk at the gun shots.

I was too late again.

[Cherishlove]

oh your right about the possibilities of others being the shooter. the top of my list have been and still are both spouses of the deceased. i had to break from reading the post for a day its just soooo sad about this little boy.soooo much have truths out there you don't know what to believe or to believe.i was really upset when i read about the mother. yeah she may have had a bad past, but what matters is she is there now and is by her sons side supporting him. i hope and pray that this little boy is soon exonerated and home, safe with the family that can love and support him no matter what. i hate to see this little boy go back after being home its got to be tough and confusing. not only will i pray for the little boy like i have , but now for his legal team to get this boy exonerated and somehow on the road to some emotional well being. my heart is just sick of this going on and on for this little boy. like i said i may be emotionally involved,but how can you not?I feel the exact same way, I believe God is going to help this small child. I sure hope he never has to go back to Detention ever again. His Mom is there for him now and we all have past, I feel I'm a very good person, but if you looked into my teenage years and some mistakes I made "yikes" is about all I can say. I want the healing to begin soon for this little boy. I wonder if they free him because there is just not much evidence against him will they start over with a real investigation?

[Cherishlove]

Which brings up another question. Didn't this boy have a single friend in the neighborhood? Seems to me he didn't and I find that odd and want to know why.I thought he played with the 6 year old before across the street, and they said he was a nice boy.

[bkwits]

I feel the exact same way, I believe God is going to help this small child. I sure hope he never has to go back to Detention ever again. His Mom is there for him now and we all have past, I feel I'm a very good person, but if you looked into my teenage years and some mistakes I made "yikes" is about all I can say. I want the healing to begin soon for this little boy. I wonder if they free him because there is just not much evidence against him will they start over with a real investigation?

Gee, I thought I was the only one on this board who did stupid, stupid things as a child and teenager. My children also did stupid dangerous things as children and teenagers. Yes, I had to bail my son out of jail, I had to pick up kids from the police station many times for violating curfew. I had to pay a neighbor because my 11 year old shot his garage window out with a bb gun. I thank God every day that we are all well and happy and no long lasting bad effects from those mistakes. I have not had training in child psychology, except for being a mother, but I do know that children have to act out, push the boundaries, to find out who they are and where they belong.

With all of that, we are a happy and close family. I hope it works out that way for CR and Eryn.

IMO

[muska]

In my modest opinion the random crackhead burglar is the only other scenario that can be adequately explained, makes sense, and fits the known evidence.

It would take too much luck for any of the others to do this. Not that the burglar wasn't extremely lucky. It just doesn't require the luck level of Mrs. Romero, or anyone else who knew these men.

I think a random crime is very possible. Burglaries are fairly common, even in the middle of the afternoon, where I live and they were on the increase in St Johns. All you need is one person who is trapped in a house and panics. It could have happened like that. It doesn't matter that there haven't been any murders there.....often people say "I never thought that could happen in my town."

[rusure?]

I think that had the boy been home awhile she would have settled down in her cage. She'd been whining for him if he had just got there.
I also think the dog went berserk at the gun shots.

I was too late again.

yea, if the boy went home from getting off the bus like some think, the dog would have demanded to be let out if she had been in that cage all day. the boy would have taken her out. after all, he had two hours.

[Aradia5]

Congratulations!

I wouldn't think IGA would even have a deli, much less prepared spaghetti unless maybe in the frozen food section. I bet this is a very small independently owned store...sort of like a mom and pop outfit with just the basics.


imo

Our IGA is as big as a regular supermarket. :confused:

[rusure?]

thats what i thought to.

and he went to his friends house to get help but she wasn't home. so he told her brother, the teen who call his father.

he also saw his friend cage.

maybe some of his friends weren't allowed to go out after school. some parents want their kids to do homework afterschool be ready for church, most churches have a Wednesday evening supper or service, or classes or some type activity going on.

[muska]

2nd revised Timeline:
4:20-approximate time coworker says TR and VR left work (could be 4:25)
4:27-VR calls Tiffany and tells her he is on his way home from work
4:39-approximate time Phipps says he saw TR and VR pass him at Circle K
4:42-approximate time Tiffany’s father talked to VR
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:00-3 or 4 shots heard by neighbor
5:03-teen’s dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans body
5:09-DN and Rodrigez arrives at the scene, speak to the boy, the 911 caller and another unknown man. Rodrigez enters house, EMT arrive during this time per DN’s report
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA and tells her he “saw his dad dead”
5:15-approximately per Melnick’s report. DN calls Chief Melnick. EMT’s already there.
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Something still does not jive with this timeline.

The teen's dad called at 5:06 or 5:07.........I will try to find it.

[muska]

The neighbors time simply just about must be wrong. 4:55 Tim hangs up, and wanders for 5 minutes before the shots are fired? It's a memory time, so it's no doubt a little off.

Or the neighbor didn't hear gunshots. Could have been something else....another neighbor reported going out in his car at a few minutes after 5.....maybe something to do with that person. Reporting this incident's gunfire as about 5:05 seems likely to be pretty far off to me.

[rusure?]

The teen's dad called at 5:06 or 5:07.........I will try to find it.

I had it that way initially but someone said it was at 5:03. Initially I had 5:03 was when the neighbor called at 5:03 about hearing gun shots and the 911 call by the teen's dad was at 5:06. Someone else told me the dad called at 5:03, so I changed it. Thanks if you find out which is correct I can change it again.

[muska]

I thought he played with the 6 year old before across the street, and they said he was a nice boy.

Neckels said she saw him playing with the 6 year old the most, and made it sound like she saw him out in the neighborhood quite a lot. She seemed to think he was just a regular kid......talked about him feeding her horse and playing with the cat.

[Aradia5]

Well, my husband did ask me which way the wind was blowing, but I don't think either of us thought of wind blowing at 33mph.

Then that was a good question. Would a bullet be swayed by wind.?

[muska]

I had it that way initially but someone said it was at 5:03. Initially I had 5:03 was when the neighbor called at 5:03 about hearing gun shots and the 911 call by the teen's dad was at 5:06. Someone else told me the dad called at 5:03, so I changed it. Thanks if you find out which is correct I can change it again.

I think it was right the first time. I will try to find it when I have a few minutes.

[Hawk]

Then that was a good question. Would a bullet be swayed by wind.?

Wind drift is a serious consideration at long range. About zero at 20' or less.
None at all in the house, of course.

[muska]

I thought he played with the 6 year old before across the street, and they said he was a nice boy.

I also saw an early article where two boys were interviewed. They were, I believe, ten and eleven. They said they played with CR during the summer and that he seemed like a regular kid. There were no reports of problems at school. So it sounds like he got along fine with different aged kids.

[Cherishlove]

The kid was 6 years old. This boy was a spit away from age 9.

I am talking about real peer friendships. Was there no one his own age in the neighborhood?

I know in my neighborhood I can tell you why there's a few kids with no friends. There's a reason.How old was his friend (the little girl) whose house he ran too for help? She wasn't home but her older brother was the one who called his dad, how old was she, she was his friend - I'm sure around the same age. The other boy was 6 that's only 2 years from 8 so they were near the same age. All I know is it was reported everyone thought he was a nice kid and no problems at school either. I have no idea how old the kids were that lived near him that he played with but it sounds like he had friends.

[muska]

IMO if they would murder two men over a simple burglary they would have taken the money.

Not if they panicked

[rusure?]

Yes, I read the same thing. I do think it was cooked spaghetti because it was referred to as spahetti, the receipt for the spaghetti dinner. et.
IMO

If it was already cooked, then I would expect the dog ate it while in the jeep. Cooked spaghetti is way better than raw, IMO.

[Cherishlove]

The kid was 6 years old. This boy was a spit away from age 9.

I am talking about real peer friendships. Was there no one his own age in the neighborhood?

I know in my neighborhood I can tell you why there's a few kids with no friends. There's a reason.
Maybe the 6 year old was near 7. 7 and 9 are very close in age. My Nephew is 8 almost 9 and my son is 11 they enjoy playing Wii together.

[muska]

That's the way it goes in the cases around here (IL). Jim Ryan, DuPage Co. Atty, made his mark by prosecuting two young men for the rape and murder of a young girl (Jeanine Nicarico). He became IL. Atty Gen. because of that case. All the time telling the Nicarico family that the men were guilty though the convictions were overturned twice. He personally followed the case and put the accused young men through 3 trials. One sentence was commuted to 80 yrs. The other got the DP. Eric Zorn of the Cgo Trib, wrote extensively about this case and I followed it. The evidence did not match. The men had alibis.Another man confessed to the crime at one point. Ryan ignored all of this. Finally with the advent of sophisticated DNA, both men were cleared of the crimes.
The Nicarico family felt betrayed by Jim Ryan who had assured them continuously that the men did, and when it was proven they didn't. Well he said they were there.
When Cruz was pardoned and awarded millions (he was on death row for 11 yrs.), Ryan finally admitted that Cruz was innocent.
Ryan ran for governor and lost and IL got Blago.
So many, many times, it is all about them, the DA's the prosecutors, etc. They won't admit a mistake even to catch a killer. IMO

To admit the mistake would leave them wide open to a lawsuit and in this case, would look pretty lousy on a resume. I don't think they would admit it.

[Hawk]

If it was already cooked, then I would expect the dog ate it while in the jeep. Cooked spaghetti is way better than raw, IMO.

Not to a dog. They like blood.

[muska]

How old was his friend (the little girl) whose house he ran too for help? She wasn't home but her older brother was the one who called his dad, how old was she, she was his friend - I'm sure around the same age. The other boy was 6 that's only 2 years from 8 so they were near the same age. All I know is it was reported everyone thought he was a nice kid and no problems at school either. I have no idea how old the kids were that lived near him that he played with but it sounds like he had friends.

The girl was his age, in his grade. It sounds like he had quite a few friends.

[rusure?]

Then that was a good question. Would a bullet be swayed by wind.?

Oh, I don't know. He was just teasing me because I was giving him every little detail about the case I could think of and he knew I was spending alot of time on this. He didn't ask me that because he really wanted to know, he was just teasing. But, at the time, I didn't know it was that windy. It may be a pertinent question.

[Hawk]

To admit the mistake would leave them wide open to a lawsuit and in this case, would look pretty lousy on a resume. I don't think they would admit it.

To admit a mistake, if they've made one, would be mandated by the voters of Apache County. The county attorney is a politician as well as a prosecutor. If there is public outcry the authorities won't just throw their hands up.
Public involvement is very important in our country. And powerful.

[rusure?]

The kid was 6 years old. This boy was a spit away from age 9.

I am talking about real peer friendships. Was there no one his own age in the neighborhood?

I know in my neighborhood I can tell you why there's a few kids with no friends. There's a reason.

What is the population where you live. St John's was a small town. One small town I lived in didn't have but maybe 2 kids my daughter's age for her to play with. I usually had to drive her to a friends or their mom brought them to our house, and we lived in a neighborhood with house close to each other.

[Pag Boi]

Congratulations!

I wouldn't think IGA would even have a deli, much less prepared spaghetti unless maybe in the frozen food section. I bet this is a very small independently owned store...sort of like a mom and pop outfit with just the basics.


imo

You are wrong

Welcome to Harvey & Johnson Inc


Harvey & Johnson Inc is the parent company of several stores and establishments that you most likely know about. H&J owns and operates Wilbur's IGA in St. Johns; Ed's IGA in Snowflake; The Heber Country Store, in Heber; Complete Communications in St. Johns; and Complete Communications in Heber. In addition to these establishments, H&J also owns in full, or in part, but does not operate Circle-K In St. Johns; Rhino's Horn Cafe; Circle-K in Payson.



At H&J we believe that through excellent customer service relations, wide product and service selection, that we can put our communities first. We are not, and never plan on being a "big scale corporate" establishment. We like to keep our operations small, yet big enough to serve the growing community, and the many growing community's needs.



harveyjohnson.net

[rusure?]

How old was his friend (the little girl) whose house he ran too for help? She wasn't home but her older brother was the one who called his dad, how old was she, she was his friend - I'm sure around the same age. The other boy was 6 that's only 2 years from 8 so they were near the same age. All I know is it was reported everyone thought he was a nice kid and no problems at school either. I have no idea how old the kids were that lived near him that he played with but it sounds like he had friends.

I think the boy said she was younger than him.

[muska]

What is the population where you live. St John's was a small town. One small town I lived in didn't have but maybe 2 kids my daughter's age for her to play with. I usually had to drive her to a friends or their mom brought them to our house, and we lived in a neighborhood with house close to each other.

I think all the info we have come up with about the children who were in one way or another referred to as CR's friends suggests a child who was able to get along fine with other children...not only his own age but within a couple of years either way as well.

[rusure?]

Not to a dog. They like blood.

tell that to my dog. she eats anything you put in front of her as quickly as dog food and just as eagerly.

[Hawk]

I think all the info we have come up with about the children who were in one way or another referred to as CR's friends suggests a child who was able to get along fine with other children...not only his own age but within a couple of years either way as well.

Maybe it's adults he has a problem with.

[Hawk]

tell that to my dog. she eats anything you put in front of her as quickly as dog food and just as eagerly.

But she won't eat raw meat?

[muska]

You are wrong

Welcome to Harvey & Johnson Inc


Harvey & Johnson Inc is the parent company of several stores and establishments that you most likely know about. H&J owns and operates Wilbur's IGA in St. Johns; Ed's IGA in Snowflake; The Heber Country Store, in Heber; Complete Communications in St. Johns; and Complete Communications in Heber. In addition to these establishments, H&J also owns in full, or in part, but does not operate Circle-K In St. Johns; Rhino's Horn Cafe; Circle-K in Payson.



At H&J we believe that through excellent customer service relations, wide product and service selection, that we can put our communities first. We are not, and never plan on being a "big scale corporate" establishment. We like to keep our operations small, yet big enough to serve the growing community, and the many growing community's needs.



harveyjohnson.net

Sounds like it must have been a pretty good size!

[rusure?]

You are wrong

Welcome to Harvey & Johnson Inc


Harvey & Johnson Inc is the parent company of several stores and establishments that you most likely know about. H&J owns and operates Wilbur's IGA in St. Johns; Ed's IGA in Snowflake; The Heber Country Store, in Heber; Complete Communications in St. Johns; and Complete Communications in Heber. In addition to these establishments, H&J also owns in full, or in part, but does not operate Circle-K In St. Johns; Rhino's Horn Cafe; Circle-K in Payson.



At H&J we believe that through excellent customer service relations, wide product and service selection, that we can put our communities first. We are not, and never plan on being a "big scale corporate" establishment. We like to keep our operations small, yet big enough to serve the growing community, and the many growing community's needs.



harveyjohnson.net

good find. what made you think to check H&J? great find anyway.

[Pag Boi]

What is the population where you live. St John's was a small town. One small town I lived in didn't have but maybe 2 kids my daughter's age for her to play with. I usually had to drive her to a friends or their mom brought them to our house, and we lived in a neighborhood with house close to each other.

IIRC, there were only 288 kids in the whole school system

The neighbor with all the kids was not at home. ONe kid rode up on his bike from work. The other kids were with the mother when Neckles called her.

Most families didn't seem to leave their young kids unsupervised. That's prolly why there were no kids outside playing for Mike Kimmel or LE to notice.
JMOO

[Hawk]

IIRC, there were only 288 kids in the whole school system

The neighbor with all the kids was not at home. ONe kid rode up on his bike from work. The other kids were with the mother when Neckles called her.

Most families didn't seem to leave their young kids unsupervised. That's prolly why there were no kids outside playing for Mike Kimmel or LE to notice.
JMOO

The boy got off the bus by himself?

[muska]

Maybe it's adults he has a problem with.

Got along, from what we have heard, with his teacher and Sunday school teacher and priest and the neighbors who said he was a sweet boy who you wanted to hug. That neighbor also said he didn't seem to have a problem in the world. Until recently, he also seemed to get along with his father. I think the grandparents would likely have also said he was fine with them. Mrs. Jaramillo, across the street, said her kids also played with him and he was a nice boy. should I try to think of more?

[rusure?]

I think all the info we have come up with about the children who were in one way or another referred to as CR's friends suggests a child who was able to get along fine with other children...not only his own age but within a couple of years either way as well.

most kids play with kids like that, don't they. At least both mine did. They didn't care how old they were, just someone to play with.

I still wonder if the boy was out by himself because the other kids had to get their homework done, plus it was cold out, 48 and wind gusts of 33mph. As a mom I wouldn't mine go out in that, but I wouldn't let my child go to school in dirty clothes either. I think someone suggested his may may have been dirty for 2 days.

[dgfred]

Maybe it's adults he has a problem with.


No evidence of that.

[rusure?]

Maybe it's adults he has a problem with.

the only adult we've heard that he might have had a problem with are the two that are dead that he's being accussed of killing. Truthfully we don't know that he had a problem with them because he is only accussed of killing them and their are no reports of him having a problem with either of them.

[muska]

All three of my dogs would have inhaled it if they were left alone for 2.5 seconds. Heck one of my dogs jumped up on the counter and ate a half a pound of butter...she stayed outside for the night!!!

And Nellie, in her picture, did not look like a very small dog.

[rusure?]

But she won't eat raw meat?

I haven't tried to feed her raw meat. But cooked food and dog food, she eats in no time flat. she doesn't chew it, i swear i think she swallows it whole or inhales it.

[muska]

the only adult we've heard that he might have had a problem with are the two that are dead that he's being accussed of killing. Truthfully we don't know that he had a problem with them because he is only accussed of killing them and their are no reports of him having a problem with either of them.

If you have a kid who seems fine with people and a double murder to solve, it sure seems like you'd think an awful lot before concluding the kid is the murderer.

[dgfred]

I haven't tried to feed her raw meat.


What about just bought earlier 'rotten' stuff?

[rusure?]

IIRC, there were only 288 kids in the whole school system

The neighbor with all the kids was not at home. ONe kid rode up on his bike from work. The other kids were with the mother when Neckles called her.

Most families didn't seem to leave their young kids unsupervised. That's prolly why there were no kids outside playing for Mike Kimmel or LE to notice.
JMOO

I'm inclined to agree with you there. Rodrigez thought the call was about a drug overdose, and I believe someone on this board said that St. John was a haven for meth heads. I wouldn't leave my kid unsupervised under those conditions.

[Pag Boi]

The boy got off the bus by himself?

We don't know what time he got off the bus or who was with him when he did as it had not been investigated on 11/7. Maybe not even by 11/19. Or even today.

Ya think it might be important to the investigation of the child.

[rusure?]

The boy got off the bus by himself?

We don't know. We don't know if he even got off the bus at the usual bus stop or which direction he went home. We don't know what his demaneor was that whole day. None of those questions were asked, at least they are not in the reports we have access to.

[rusure?]

If you have a kid who seems fine with people and a double murder to solve, it sure seems like you'd think an awful lot before concluding the kid is the murderer.

Oh, I'm not concluding the kid is the murderer. I'm just saying the kid did not have problems with adults, especially his dad (who he is accussed of murdering).

[rusure?]

What about just bought earlier 'rotten' stuff?

I would not feed my dog rotten food. My dog would not be feed anything that we would not eat or we know could harm her, i.e. chicken bones, chocolate, pork chop bones rotten meat, rotten left overs.

[Hawk]

We don't know what time he got off the bus or who was with him when he did as it had not been investigated on 11/7. Maybe not even by 11/19. Or even today.

Ya think it might be important to the investigation of the child.

It was posted earlier that he gets off the bus between 2:45 and 3:00. I'm sure it has been investigated.

[rusure?]

It was posted earlier that he gets off the bus between 2:45 and 3:00. I'm sure it has been investigated.

But the boy was arrested the next day. I don't think it was investigated.

[Pag Boi]

But the boy was arrested the next day. I don't think it was investigated.


In fact, Neckles tells BB she has not verified the time when he asked her.

TA is the one that brought up the 3pm time line during the first interview.


Neckles didn't even know that Tim was living there. :rolleyes:

[PensiveOne]

I think a random crime is very possible. Burglaries are fairly common, even in the middle of the afternoon, where I live and they were on the increase in St Johns. All you need is one person who is trapped in a house and panics. It could have happened like that. It doesn't matter that there haven't been any murders there.....often people say "I never thought that could happen in my town."

I think it is the most logical scenario.

Most break-ins happen during the work day, while few people are home to notice. FBI (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation?tid=informline) statistics show there are 1.75 times more home burglaries during the day than at night. Nearly 68 percent of all burglaries in 2007 were at residences, and typical theft added up to $1,991, according to the FBI.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/06/AR2008120600113.html

[muska]

Oh, I'm not concluding the kid is the murderer. I'm just saying the kid did not have problems with adults, especially his dad (who he is accussed of murdering).

Oh I didn't mean you in particular, just people in general. I know you are not accusing him. Sorry!!

[Hawk]

But the boy was arrested the next day. I don't think it was investigated.

That's were my confusion is then. You are going on the reports that have been released to the public. Statements made around the time of the arrest.
My point is that since the arrest all these things we're discussing have been investigated. By both the police and by Mr. Brewer. The defense has Discovery to submit to the court in rebuttal to the prosecution. But we don't know what that is yet.

[Pag Boi]

Neckles didn't even know where her neighbor, Ray Davis lived.

Neckles couldn't tell BB who made the 911 call

Neckles couldn't ID the 2nd man standing with Ray Davis when she arived.


Ya think it might be important to know what is going on before you arrest anyone for double homicide?

[muska]

But the boy was arrested the next day. I don't think it was investigated.

Not before he was arrested!

[muska]

I think it is the most logical scenario.

Most break-ins happen during the work day, while few people are home to notice. FBI (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation?tid=informline) statistics show there are 1.75 times more home burglaries during the day than at night. Nearly 68 percent of all burglaries in 2007 were at residences, and typical theft added up to $1,991, according to the FBI.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/06/AR2008120600113.html

It is a lot more logical than concluding that an 8 year old did it, on his own, no less.

[muska]

Neckles didn't even know where her neighbor, Ray Davis lived.

Neckles couldn't tell BB who made the 911 call

Neckles couldn't ID the 2nd man standing with Ray Davis when she arived.


Ya think it might be important to know what is going on before you arrest anyone for double homicide?

Especially if you are going to arrest an eight year old!

[rusure?]

Oh I didn't mean you in particular, just people in general. I know you are not accusing him. Sorry!!

Oh, OK. I just misunderstood you.:blushing:

[rusure?]

That's were my confusion is then. You are going on the reports that have been released to the public. Statements made around the time of the arrest.
My point is that since the arrest all these things we're discussing have been investigated. By both the police and by Mr. Brewer. The defense has Discovery to submit to the court in rebuttal to the prosecution. But we don't know what that is yet.

I thought that's what the disclosure statements were for. So the defense knows what the DA could possibly use in court.

I go by what has been released to the court via their web site as well as what has been released to the general public, as long as those reports are from reliable sources. I do not now, nor have I ever based my opinion by hearsay or unreliable sources. Basing opinions based on hearsay or unreliable sources leaves too much room for assuming (and I know what assume does makes an ***-u-me)

[rusure?]

Neckles didn't even know where her neighbor, Ray Davis lived.

Neckles couldn't tell BB who made the 911 call

Neckles couldn't ID the 2nd man standing with Ray Davis when she arived.


Ya think it might be important to know what is going on before you arrest anyone for double homicide?

Yep. Homicide Investigation 101.

[Pag Boi]

I thought that's what the disclosure statements were for. So the defense knows what the DA could possibly use in court.

I go by what has been released to the court via their web site as well as what has been released to the general public, as long as those reports are from reliable sources. I do not now, nor have I ever based my opinion by hearsay or unreliable sources. Basing opinions based on hearsay or unreliable sources leaves too much room for assuming (and I know what assume does makes an ***-u-me)

ITA.

Those handwritten witness stmts might not even match what LE wrote up.

BB must know about a lot of them. He asked her which reports woudl be more reliable when such contradictions arise down the road (paraphrasing). There is a reason he was asking Neckles that JMOO

[Hawk]

I thought that's what the disclosure statements were for. So the defense knows what the DA could possibly use in court.

I go by what has been released to the court via their web site as well as what has been released to the general public, as long as those reports are from reliable sources. I do not now, nor have I ever based my opinion by hearsay or unreliable sources. Basing opinions based on hearsay or unreliable sources leaves too much room for assuming (and I know what assume does makes an ***-u-me)

But you insist that these things haven't been asked or investigated and they have.
They locked the boy up because Judge Roca found probable cause. That doesn't mean the investigation stopped. It may have paused after the interrogation in order for LE to regroup. There's nothing to suggest it ended. Or that it has stopped now. From either side.

[dgfred]

I don't doubt the investigation is going on hard and heavy, but it needs to be after the sorry start they got with all the boo-boos :ohmy: .

[Crispy]

Anybody have a clue who these people are? It says they are witnesses but I haven't heard them mentioned before.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%204TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

[dgfred]

I'm so ready for some more actual evidence in this case... I'm ready to unleash a whole pile of 'I told ya so' stew. I hope it isn't crow that I'm
unleashing though :unsure: .

[dgfred]

Anybody have a clue who these people are? It says they are witnesses but I haven't heard them mentioned before.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%204TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf


Maybe they were officers that looked over the crime scene, not sure.

[rusure?]

But you insist that these things haven't been asked or investigated and they have.
They locked the boy up because Judge Roca found probable cause. That doesn't mean the investigation stopped. It may have paused after the interrogation in order for LE to regroup. There's nothing to suggest it ended. Or that it has stopped now. From either side.

When were they investigated. If they were investigated and the results were of any benifit to the DA, those investigation reports should be listed under the disclosure statements.

Do you have a link from a reliable sources that says they were investigated?

[rusure?]

But you insist that these things haven't been asked or investigated and they have.
They locked the boy up because Judge Roca found probable cause. That doesn't mean the investigation stopped. It may have paused after the interrogation in order for LE to regroup. There's nothing to suggest it ended. Or that it has stopped now. From either side.


And about the boy being locked up for probable cause. Read page 3 of this document very very carefully, and more if you like:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ADVISORY%20HEARING_DETENTION%20HEARING.pdf

[rusure?]

ITA.

Those handwritten witness stmts might not even match what LE wrote up.

BB must know about a lot of them. He asked her which reports woudl be more reliable when such contradictions arise down the road (paraphrasing). There is a reason he was asking Neckles that JMOO

I totally agree.

[denisel]

Our IGA is as big as a regular supermarket. :confused:

Pardon the pun, but I think you guys are all barking up the wrong tree about the hamburger, the dog, the spaghetti and the donuts.

It is my opinion she bought the donuts because she works before Wilburs opens. With CR, VR and Tim at home I don't think she would want to bring the donuts home to get scarfed up by the three. It would be a quick drive to take the donuts and drop them off work the day before.

It is my opinion TR bought the hamburger meat to make spaghetti that evening (a quick meal to prepare when you've been working all day and you have to feed 4). You know you cook spaghetti noodles for 8-9 minutes and add cooked hamburger with Ragu or whatever sauce.

She was called to the scene by CR, where LE or CR IMO gave her the dog. She probably only had to have the dog in the jeep for a few minutes before the rest of the family arrived (with news spreading like wild fire). Then VR's mom, sister, etc would be there as well as TR's dad, grandma, grandpa, etc. At that time I'm sure one of the relatives was asked to take care of the dog. After some police questioning that evening, the boy and dog ended with one of the grandparents while TR and VR's mom stayed at the scene. So the dog was separated from the hamburger early.

IMO VR's dad takes the jeep to his house so no one will know the whereabouts of TR who stays at her grandma's for support since TR can't go back into her house because it is a crime scene, plus news media at this time were aggressive to try to talk to all parties.
VR's dad leaves the jeep parked a couple of days at his house where the meat begins to spoil. When TR finally gets the ok to go back to the house she gets her jeep, meets Neckles and by now needs to get rid of the stinking hamburger meat.

To me, these are minor extraneous events that have nothing to do with the double murder........IMO

[rusure?]

Anybody have a clue who these people are? It says they are witnesses but I haven't heard them mentioned before.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%204TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

Appears to be special investigations units and narcotics units from outside of St. Johns.

I doubt they'd be asking questions of the bus driver or other kids on the bus or the school teachers.

[Hawk]

I'm so ready for some more actual evidence in this case... I'm ready to unleash a whole pile of 'I told ya so' stew. I hope it isn't crow that I'm
unleashing though :unsure: .

Reckon most of us will be eating a little crow, dgfred. If it turns out that the boy had nothing whatsoever to do with these crimes I'll slice a huge piece of crow pie for myself and delight in every bite.
If it goes the other way there certainly won't be any personal satisfaction on my part.
I"m eager for more valid information also.

[Crispy]

I'm just wondering if they were interviewing out of town people or if they just came in to St. Johns to help them locally. Stinking, stupid gag order!! jmo

ETA: Are there any more witness lists out?

[rusure?]

I think you're correct. To assume for even a minute that what we've been privy to, is all there is, would be a huge mistake.

I don't assume anything. You may assume I'm assumeing, but I assure you I don't assume.

The information I would be expecting to see would show up on the disclosure statements that are posted on the court site. Of all those disclosure lists, nothing about bus driver, or kids on the bus. The witnesses on the lists lists where they work. No witness from the school or bus. No kids names redacted.

So, that tells me, that if LE did investigate, the names of people they talked to would be on the witness list, if the DA thought it would further his case. Everything else we would expect to be a help to the DA are on the disclosure lists. The cell phone records aren't on the disclosure lists either, what does that tell you. They would not help the DA's case. The search warrant for the cell phone records are for public view, why not list the report in disclosure?

[Hawk]

And about the boy being locked up for probable cause. Read page 3 of this document very very carefully, and more if you like:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ADVISORY%20HEARING_DETENTION%20HEARING.pdf

The Court found probable cause. That's why the boy went to jail.

[Pag Boi]

Pardon the pun, but I think you guys are all barking up the wrong tree about the hamburger, the dog, the spaghetti and the donuts.

It is my opinion she bought the donuts because she works before Wilburs opens. With CR, VR and Tim at home I don't think she would want to bring the donuts home to get scarfed up by the three. It would be a quick drive to take the donuts and drop them off work the day before.

It is my opinion TR bought the hamburger meat to make spaghetti that evening (a quick meal to prepare when you've been working all day and you have to feed 4). You know you cook spaghetti noodles for 8-9 minutes and add cooked hamburger with Ragu or whatever sauce.

She was called to the scene by CR, where LE or CR IMO gave her the dog. She probably only had to have the dog in the jeep for a few minutes before the rest of the family arrived (with news spreading like wild fire). Then VR's mom, sister, etc would be there as well as TR's dad, grandma, grandpa, etc. At that time I'm sure one of the relatives was asked to take care of the dog. After some police questioning that evening, the boy and dog ended with one of the grandparents while TR and VR's mom stayed at the scene. So the dog was separated from the hamburger early.

IMO VR's dad takes the jeep to his house so no one will know the whereabouts of TR who stays at her grandma's for support since TR can't go back into her house because it is a crime scene, plus news media at this time were aggressive to try to talk to all parties.
VR's dad leaves the jeep parked a couple of days at his house where the meat begins to spoil. When TR finally gets the ok to go back to the house she gets her jeep, meets Neckles and by now needs to get rid of the stinking hamburger meat.

To me, these are minor extraneous events that have nothing to do with the double murder........IMO

Where is the link to Tif's work hours? Wilbur's hours?

The only credible link we have seen says that she worked until 5 on Mon & Wed. Obviously not every Wed since she was at Wilbur's 2x before 5.


Neckles tells BB she rereturned to the house on Thursday to ask Tif some questions. As in the day after the shootings. Tif ID's the s'ghetti :read:

The 3 days came in because it took Neckles that long to get back to the store - 3 days after the date stamp on the receipt. Tape didn't exist any longer

[denisel]

I certainly wouldn't mind eating some. I hear it tastes just like chicken:tongue side:

I suspect from here on the court will be releasing a ton of stuff so we have a better idea what's going on where we may all be right and all be wrong in a number of details...

[muska]

But you insist that these things haven't been asked or investigated and they have.
They locked the boy up because Judge Roca found probable cause. That doesn't mean the investigation stopped. It may have paused after the interrogation in order for LE to regroup. There's nothing to suggest it ended. Or that it has stopped now. From either side.

I think the LE investigation, for all practical purposes stopped with the 'confession." The chief called everyone off their interviews and never considered the wives or anyone else as the shooter after that. Too much valuable time was lost. If the boy is innocent, they will never prove who did this.

[denisel]

:punch: The gag order silly! Which BTW is driving me BONKERS!

Even with the sunshine laws in Florida, the public still isn't privy to EVERYTHING in the Casey Anthony case.

IMO there are a lot more interviews and a lot more evidence than we know, especially the list of invstigators we just saw posted, LE may have done there job much better than most realize excluding some bonehead mistakes, IMO

[Crispy]

:punch: The gag order silly! Which BTW is driving me BONKERS!

Even with the sunshine laws in Florida, the public still isn't privy to EVERYTHING in the Casey Anthony case.

For my own selfish reasons I would like all crimes to be committed in Florida. It seems like they put out a ton of info and a lot of the hearings are televised. jmo

[muska]

The Court found probable cause. That's why the boy went to jail.

Originally, they discussed letting him go home but there was no place for him to go. Brewer asked Roca if the boy could be housed temproarily and once a place was available, he asked if a possible release could be discussed. I don't remember it ever coming up again. I do remember taht even Candelaria, at the beginning, wondered where the child should be held.....even mentioning the possibility of sending him home in an article.

[denisel]

:punch: The gag order silly! Which BTW is driving me BONKERS!

Even with the sunshine laws in Florida, the public still isn't privy to EVERYTHING in the Casey Anthony case.

I agree, IMO See you later Linda!

[dgfred]

Me too! I believe I would fight somebody just to see the ballistic reports.

[Jacobtk]

And about the boy being locked up for probable cause. Read page 3 of this document very very carefully, and more if you like:

I had not read the minute hearing transcript before, only the full transcript:

Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity to raise the issue again and present other matters regarding the propriety of detention the Court will find Pursuant to 23D, 2 and 4. The minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurious to himself.

The Court will find by probable cause that the interest of the minor and public require custodial protection.

It sounds like the probable cause for holding the boy was that he might harm himself or that others might harm him and not necessarily that he committed the acts he is accused of.

[denisel]

I had not read the minute hearing transcript before, only the full transcript:

Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity to raise the issue again and present other matters regarding the propriety of detention the Court will find Pursuant to 23D, 2 and 4. The minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurious to himself.

The Court will find by probable cause that the interest of the minor and public require custodial protection.

It sounds like the probable cause for holding the boy was that he might harm himself or that others might harm him and not necessarily that he committed the acts he is accused of.

They may also have been fearful of Roman family or Native Americn backlash against the boy.

[Hawk]

IMO there are a lot more interviews and a lot more evidence than we know, especially the list of invstigators we just saw posted, LE may have done there job much better than most realize excluding some bonehead mistakes, IMO

Arm chair detective work is simple at a keyboard. Hindsight being 20-20and all.
In a place like St. Johns rumors would be good leads. I imagine they've followed more than they can count. On and off the clock.
They are human, after all, despite the assessment of some.
Infallible. Hardly. Who is?

[dgfred]

Well maybe the investigation was kept strong, even after the boy 'confessed', instead of dropping it like we might have thought.

[Hawk]

I had not read the minute hearing transcript before, only the full transcript:

Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity to raise the issue again and present other matters regarding the propriety of detention the Court will find Pursuant to 23D, 2 and 4. The minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurious to himself.

The Court will find by probable cause that the interest of the minor and public require custodial protection.

It sounds like the probable cause for holding the boy was that he might harm himself or that others might harm him and not necessarily that he committed the acts he is accused of.

Then why did he have to go back to jail after his Thanksgiving furlough? The waters were tested then.

[Crispy]

Why would you expect all of his bus mates to be interviewed? You think one of them murdered the men? What more would you expect LE to ask the bus driver besides MAYBE what time did you drop him off and where? Maybe a, did you see anything suspicious?

Well, it would be extremely helpful for those who haven't made up their minds, or just to help their investigation, to hear what time he got off the bus, did other kids get off the bus at the same time, which way did he go when he got off, was he acting OK on the bus...things like that. Surely they have done that. There is a missing disclosure filing(that is if they didn't just make a mistake on the numbering) Maybe that has some sensitive info in it that shouldn't be out there. jmo

[Pag Boi]

IMO there are a lot more interviews and a lot more evidence than we know, especially the list of invstigators we just saw posted, LE may have done there job much better than most realize excluding some bonehead mistakes, IMO


These new witnesses might merely be people that handled the evidenc tested. JMOO

[Hawk]

I'd bet my last dollar they continued investigation to see of the boy acted on his own accord alone or was he urged by someone else.

Exactly. That may be the reason Chief Melnick is seeking employment elsewhere. Just too sure he had the case closed. Maybe the city council that hired him wasn't convinced.

[rusure?]

okay...and? Brewer agrees that there is a BASIS for holding him.

Why would an innocent child need to be protected from injuring himself?

But, says he has no offer of proof in the second prong. The judge asked if "he intends to present any evidence or have an offer of proof as to the issue of probable cause". Brewer said he had no offer of proof in the second prong.

The DA tried to get the DVD of the boy's testimony in but the judge refused.

They took a recess and when returning the DA tried again and the judge said no again.

"Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity . . . ." read that statement. I can't get the pdf to let me cut and paste.

The court found that the minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurous to himself.

That gives probable cause to keep him. Unless you want him to off himself.


As to your question about why he would want to commit injury to himself. Let me tell you from experience that children do attempt to injure themselves. Some parents emotionally abuse their children to the point the child thinks they are the scum of the earth (not the parents as being scum of the earth, but the child themselves). They feel so badly about themselves they often think of offing themselves. It's not a fun place to be for anyone to be, especially a child of 8. (I was 7 at the time).

[rusure?]

The Court found probable cause. That's why the boy went to jail.

There is more to it than that. Read it really close.

One the boy did not go to jail.
He was in detention.
Probable cause is based on several things, not just the murders. Probable cause to other matters.

[Crispy]

These new witnesses might merely be people that handled the evidenc tested. JMOO


Just a heads up, I should have been clearer when linking that. That was not a new filing. It was filed on Dec. 9th, 08.

[Hawk]

But, says he has no offer of proof in the second prong. The judge asked if "he intends to present any evidence or have an offer of proof as to the issue of probable cause". Brewer said he had no offer of proof in the second prong.

The DA tried to get the DVD of the boy's testimony in but the judge refused.

They took a recess and when returning the DA tried again and the judge said no again.

"Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity . . . ." read that statement. I can't get the pdf to let me cut and paste.

The court found that the minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurous to himself.

That gives probable cause to keep him. Unless you want him to off himself.


As to your question about why he would want to commit injury to himself. Let me tell you from experience that children do attempt to injure themselves. Some parents emotionally abuse their children to the point the child thinks they are the scum of the earth (not the parents as being scum of the earth, but the child themselves). They feel so badly about themselves they often think of offing themselves. It's not a fun place to be for anyone to be, especially a child of 8. (I was 7 at the time).

He's had nearly three months to injure himself and ample opportunities.
Brewer's statements don't mean that the judge would not have held him anyway. With probable cause.

[rusure?]

Where is the link to Tif's work hours? Wilbur's hours?

The only credible link we have seen says that she worked until 5 on Mon & Wed. Obviously not every Wed since she was at Wilbur's 2x before 5.


Neckles tells BB she rereturned to the house on Thursday to ask Tif some questions. As in the day after the shootings. Tif ID's the s'ghetti :read:

The 3 days came in because it took Neckles that long to get back to the store - 3 days after the date stamp on the receipt. Tape didn't exist any longer

On Thursday?? Do you remember what time Thursday? The boy was arrested Thursday.

[rusure?]

I think the LE investigation, for all practical purposes stopped with the 'confession." The chief called everyone off their interviews and never considered the wives or anyone else as the shooter after that. Too much valuable time was lost. If the boy is innocent, they will never prove who did this.

I totally agree. I forget who's report it was, but he was called back while he was still interviewing co-workers of Tim and VR, because the boy had just confessed. Why call him back because the boy confessed. Why not let him finish. That was just plain silly.

[rusure?]

:punch: The gag order silly! Which BTW is driving me BONKERS!

Even with the sunshine laws in Florida, the public still isn't privy to EVERYTHING in the Casey Anthony case.

I'm wanting privy to everything. Simply the things that should be on the disclosure lists of the DA's that aren't on them, unless the DA is not going to use them. Like cell phone records, or interviews of the bus driver or teachers etc. They have some of coworkers on the witness lists. Why not the others? Because they can't use them because it would not help their case, that's why. I'm mainly curious about the cell phone records not being disclosed. If they helped the DA's case they would be on the disclosure lists.

The States Disclosure Statements are not closed to anybody. They are posted on the courts website.

[rusure?]

IMO there are a lot more interviews and a lot more evidence than we know, especially the list of invstigators we just saw posted, LE may have done there job much better than most realize excluding some bonehead mistakes, IMO

the witness list mentioned are special investigaters not from St. Johns. Narcotics investigaters. Was the boy a dope addict on top of being a murderer?

[rusure?]

Why would you expect all of his bus mates to be interviewed? You think one of them murdered the men? What more would you expect LE to ask the bus driver besides MAYBE what time did you drop him off and where? Maybe a, did you see anything suspicious?

Oh come on. Be reasonable. As I have said before numerous times is his bus mates might have noticed which way he went when he got off the bus. They would have noticed his mood or demeanor. As for the bus driver, yes, the bus driver should have been asked the next day at least, what time did you drop the boy off, which way did he go, did you notice his demeanor. Bus drivers pay attention to every child that rides their bus. You better believe they do. They watch where the go when getting off the bus. Unless they're just plain ol' sorry.

[IAMME]

As far as the boy not having age-peers, there are several reasons a child may not have friends his or her own age, and they are not all "bad" reasons as alluded to by some posters...

My son has NO friends that are his own age, he gets along fairly well with children his own age, and he gets along well with children younger than him, but his "true peers" are several years older than he is, he has two close friends who graduated last year, and he is in 8th grade, 13 years old, he is also extremely close to my nephew who is also 19, but my son is extremely gifted, and he thinks kids his own age (esp. boys) are silly and he doesnt understand them.....and they think he is a nerd. (and he is kinda lol) Not all children develop at the same rate and some have asychronous development. One of the worst things we do as a society is force our children into age based groupings instead of ability based groupings IMO

[Hawk]

rusure?

Please read the last two sentances on page 2 of 5

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ADVISORY%20HEARING_DETENTION%20HEARING.pdf

That settles it. Probable cause. Possible injury to the defendant irrelevant.

[rusure?]

I had not read the minute hearing transcript before, only the full transcript:

Based on the matters previously presented and subject to the defense opportunity to raise the issue again and present other matters regarding the propriety of detention the Court will find Pursuant to 23D, 2 and 4. The minor may, without detention, commit an offense injurious to himself.

The Court will find by probable cause that the interest of the minor and public require custodial protection.

It sounds like the probable cause for holding the boy was that he might harm himself or that others might harm him and not necessarily that he committed the acts he is accused of.

THANK YOU JACOBTK!!!!!!! That's the very thing I was trying to get them to see. I'm glad in not insane. THANK YOU. THANK YOU:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[rusure?]

Not to me it doesn't. It clearly says it's in the interest of the PUBLIC as well as protect the boy from himself.

breaking my fingers.

[IAMME]

Still wondering why an innocent child would want to harm himself.

IMO this would go to consciousness of guilt.

Just as hiding his face under his hood


I swear im not trying to be arguementative, but isnt that VERY inconsistant with him being a little pyschopath???? Or having any of the other disorders he has been accused of suffering on this board?

[rusure?]

Then why did he have to go back to jail after his Thanksgiving furlough? The waters were tested then.

Because, his mother had to come to Arizona. She lived out of state.

He did not go to jail. He went to detention.

[rusure?]

Well, it would be extremely helpful for those who haven't made up their minds, or just to help their investigation, to hear what time he got off the bus, did other kids get off the bus at the same time, which way did he go when he got off, was he acting OK on the bus...things like that. Surely they have done that. There is a missing disclosure filing(that is if they didn't just make a mistake on the numbering) Maybe that has some sensitive info in it that shouldn't be out there. jmo

Naming the bus driver or the cell phone records on a disclosure statement is not sensitive info.

[rusure?]

He's had nearly three months to injure himself and ample opportunities.
Brewer's statements don't mean that the judge would not have held him anyway. With probable cause.

Three months? This hearing was in November!

[rusure?]

I can't get pdf's to copy and paste either:cursing:

Yes, may commit an injurious offense to himself. Why would an innocent child want to injure himself???

He would not have been held in detention if their only concern was his harming himself. He would have instead been transported to a crisis center or hospital setting.

They don't toss kids into detention because they may harm themselves.

The court found probable cause without the dvd.

The court also clearly states he's being held for the best interest of the PUBLIC as well as the boy.

IMO the second prong was expected to be met when the results came rolling in.

Held on 23D 2 and 4.

[Crispy]

Naming the bus driver or the cell phone records on a disclosure statement is not sensitive info.

The names of juvenile friends might be. I'm just taking a stab in the dark on why it's not there

[rusure?]

Still wondering why an innocent child would want to harm himself.

IMO this would go to consciousness of guilt.

Just as hiding his face under his hood

NO NO NO NO and NONONO

Hiding his face under his hood. Is that when he started to cry?

There are many reasons why a child would want to harm himself, not just guilt...

This is the last time I'll say it. If it hasn't sunk in now it never will.

[Hawk]

Because, his mother had to come to Arizona. She lived out of state.

He did not go to jail. He went to detention.


When you're behind bars without freedom to leave you're in jail. Everything you do is dictated by someone else.
Calling it by any other name doesn't change the fact. It's jail.

[Hawk]

Three months? This hearing was in November!

It's February the 2nd where I live. Four more days will be three months of incarceration for the juvenile, minus his furlough time.

[IAMME]

Actually, it would fit perfectly with the sudden onset of Intermittent Explosive Disorder

I disagree, persons who suffer from IED do not plan for 2 hours and lay in wait......as this boy is accused of doing....if he had IED he would have taken his swats, gone upstairs loaded his gun came downstairs and shot everyone within minutes of the spanking, and we have heard no evidence that he had any other mental health disorders, most ppl say he was a good sweet boy, IED has a high rate of comorbity....IMO

[Hawk]

I disagree, persons who suffer from IED do not plan for 2 hours and lay in wait......as this boy is accused of doing....if he had IED he would have taken his swats, gone upstairs loaded his gun came downstairs and shot everyone within minutes of the spanking, and we have heard no evidence that he had any other mental health disorders, most ppl say he was a good sweet boy, IED has a high rate of comorbity....IMO

If he had an IED he could have blown the house off it's foundation!
With everybody in it.

[IAMME]

If he had an IED he could have blown the house off it's foundation!
With everybody in it.


LOL, between you and rusure with the finger breaking.....i have had to clean my screen twice in the last thirty minutes!!! Thanks alot guys!:tonguewag:

[rusure?]

rusure?

Please read the last two sentances on page 2 of 5

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ADVISORY%20HEARING_DETENTION%20HEARING.pdf

I did and Brewer said on page 3 that he had no offer of proof with regard to the second prong.

I'm not sure if that means to the 2 statements of the court on page 2, the first prong could be the first statement and the second prong could be the second statement. If that's the case then Brewer may have evidence to disprove the first statement which was that the offense has be(en sic) committed as described in the petition.

Or if the second prong was to the question from the court at the top of page 3 if Mr. Brewer intended to present any evidence

Any ideas as to which is the second prong? Either way, it tells me Mr. Brewer has something, but is not ready to present it yet.

[rusure?]

That settles it. Probable cause. Possible injury to the defendant irrelevant.

Possible injury to the defendant is never irrelevant. I beg your pardon.

[Hawk]

LOL, between you and rusure with the finger breaking.....i have had to clean my screen twice in the last thirty minutes!!! Thanks alot guys!:tonguewag:


Well, we gotta have just a bit of humor now and then I reckon, cause this stuff will drive you nuts. And for me it's a short ride.

[rusure?]

Actually, it would fit perfectly with the sudden onset of Intermittent Explosive Disorder

Oh really. What is your source for that?

[rusure?]

The names of juvenile friends might be. I'm just taking a stab in the dark on why it's not there

They could have redacted them like they did other stuff.

[rusure?]

HUH? Ya lost me

from your linked document.

[Hawk]

Possible injury to the defendant is never irrelevant. I beg your pardon.

We had three prisoners in our county jail strangle themselves last year. Doesn't stop the judges from putting more mugs in there.

[rusure?]

It's February the 2nd where I live. Four more days will be three months of incarceration for the juvenile, minus his furlough time.

He was released last week. I thought we were discussing his possible harming himself. For 3 months he could not have harmed himself in detention. They do not allow weapons or other means of harming himself.

[rusure?]

Based on the matter presented the Court will find it more likely than not the offense has been committed as described in the petition

The Court futher finds that the minor XXXXXXXX was involved as described in the offense as described in the petition

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ADVISORY%20HEARING_DETENTION%20HEARING.pdf

fine i get that. now read on page 3.

[IAMME]

He didn't need two hours to plan it. Perhaps while thinking about it, he got himself all worked up & grabbed the gun 5 minutes before the men returned home?

Perhaps he knew he'd receive more of the same from his dad that day, did he remember to bring the paper home?

He also seems to be a pathological liar...he's young, lots of time to develop more diagnoses

I think if that were true we would have heard from someone that he had had problems with impulsivity in the past....and everyone has stated he was a sweet good kid, not the kind of description you usually hear when talking about a child with an impulse control disorder.....

[rusure?]

I disagree, persons who suffer from IED do not plan for 2 hours and lay in wait......as this boy is accused of doing....if he had IED he would have taken his swats, gone upstairs loaded his gun came downstairs and shot everyone within minutes of the spanking, and we have heard no evidence that he had any other mental health disorders, most ppl say he was a good sweet boy, IED has a high rate of comorbity....IMO

Thank you IAMME.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Hawk]

He was released last week. I thought we were discussing his possible harming himself. For 3 months he could not have harmed himself in detention. They do not allow weapons or other means of harming himself.

He was out on two separate occasions. Plenty of opportunity then.

Besides, I ain't never heard of an 8 year committing suicide. Not saying it's never happened, but if it has it certainly isn't common.

[rusure?]

He also seems to be a pathological liar...he's young, lots of time to develop more diagnoses

Surely you aren't serious!!!

[rusure?]

LOL, between you and rusure with the finger breaking.....i have had to clean my screen twice in the last thirty minutes!!! Thanks alot guys!:tonguewag:

You are most kindly welcome. Glad to be of help.

[IAMME]

He was out on two separate occasions. Plenty of opportunity then.

Besides, I ain't never heard of an 8 year committing suicide. Not saying it's never happened, but if it has it certainly isn't common.

I bet it is more common than 8 year olds who commit double homicides.

OT A friend of a friend of mine's 12 year old hung hisself last week. Horribly tragic.

[Details]

He was out on two separate occasions.

Besides, I ain't never heard of an 8 year committing suicide. Not saying it's never happened, but if it has it certainly isn't common.8 year olds who find their father and another man dead aren't common - even less common are 8 year olds that the police are trying to lock up for life. That kind of stress could give cause to be concerned for anyone's well being.

It happens. Take a look here.
http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children

[rusure?]

We had three prisoners in our county jail strangle themselves last year. Doesn't stop the judges from putting more mugs in there.

I rest my case.

[wolfi_2]

He was out on two separate occasions. Plenty of opportunity then.

Besides, I ain't never heard of an 8 year committing suicide. Not saying it's never happened, but if it has it certainly isn't common.

Just a link about children suicide

http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children

[rusure?]

He was out on two separate occasions. Plenty of opportunity then.

Besides, I ain't never heard of an 8 year committing suicide. Not saying it's never happened, but if it has it certainly isn't common.

How could he have plenty of opportunity. He wasn't left alone.

[IAMME]

8 year olds who find their father and another man dead aren't common - even less common are 8 year olds that the police are trying to lock up for life. That kind of stress could give cause to be concerned for anyone's well being.

It happens. Take a look here.
http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children


Read the paragraph under parental supervision in that article!!!!:scared:

[rusure?]

8 year olds who find their father and another man dead aren't common - even less common are 8 year olds that the police are trying to lock up for life. That kind of stress could give cause to be concerned for anyone's well being.

It happens. Take a look here.
http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children

Thank you Details for that article. I know I was 7 when I thought about it alot but didn't know how to stay dead.

[wolfi_2]

8 year olds who find their father and another man dead aren't common - even less common are 8 year olds that the police are trying to lock up for life. That kind of stress could give cause to be concerned for anyone's well being.

It happens. Take a look here.
http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children



you beat me with the link...

[Hawk]

I rest my case.


These were hard core adults. Not kids.
Two were charged with murder and the other with rape. They tied bed sheets around their necks while on their knees and just leaned over.
Saved the county a lot of money.

[Details]

Read the paragraph under parental supervision in that article!!!!:scared:Yeah, I noticed that. Shouldn't be relevant anymore, I'd hope - but one more reason it's never good for children that young to be unsupervised for long.

[rusure?]

These were hard core adults. Not kids.
Two were charged with murder and the other with rape. They tied bed sheets around their necks while on their knees and just leaned over.
Saved the county a lot of money.

breaking my fingers.

[IAMME]

Thank you Details for that article. I know I was 7 when I thought about it alot but didn't know how to stay dead.

My son apparently thought about suicide while he was in 4th grade, I had NO clue, he had a really horrible teacher and a rough year, this was before we grade accelerated him, I knew he was depressed and he was very obviously lashing out but, I didnt find out about it until the next year when I asked him if the work at school was challenging enough, and he replied not really i already know everything they are trying to teach us but it is better than 4th grade, I dont want to kill myself anymore........I very calmly had a discussion about the importance of discussing feelings like these if they returned..... the entire time I talked to him I felt like my insides had turned to jello and someone had stolen all my O2.....:crying:

[rusure?]

My son apparently thought about suicide while he was in 4th grade, I had NO clue, he had a really horrible teacher and a rough year, this was before we grade accelerated him, I knew he was depressed and he was very obviously lashing out but, I didnt find out about it until the next year when I asked him if the work at school was challenging enough, and he replied not really i already know everything they are trying to teach us but it is better than 4th grade, I dont want to kill myself anymore........I very calmly had a discussion about the importance of discussing feelings like these if they returned..... the entire time I talked to him I felt like my insides had turned to jello and someone had stolen all my O2.....:crying:

Bless you.

[rusure?]

I still owe $54,000 in student loans, pay em off and I'll show you:wink::smile:

What you just said is not a reliable source. I still have 24,000 in student loans, but that's not a source either.:smile:

[rusure?]

You think he was a danger to himself because he was horribly abused?

I didn't say that. Go read the article that was posted. Your source of IED should also be able to tell you that children arrested contemplate suicide also.

[IAMME]

You're wrong. He's 8

imo


I know four children wth impulse disorders on a personal level, two of whom are from the same family, and ALL four had problems WELL before they were 8.

One of these kids I would describe as a sweet, good kid, however his teachers would STRONGLY disagree with me lol, apparently they really disaprove of him wadding up his papers slinging them off his desk and announcing to the room at large "I aint agonna do it!!" among other things he has done/said at school.... The other three have their sweet good moments, however, I have seen them when they are not sweet or good more often than not, and would not describe them as such, these kids are 9, 9, 10, and 21(not tech a child anymore, but have known him since he was) All of these kids were dx'd in preschool-1st grade. IED is extremely rare and not likely in this case IMO.