1/31- Case against child falling apart?

[bkwits]

Starting new thread. Come on over. :seeya:

[rusure?]

I posted this on the last thread before you started this one. I wanted to make sure yall read it and hopefully get some feed back on it?

Evidence:
Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after knowing something is wrong?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else to take place.
Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?

If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO.

[rusure?]

Can someone please tell me if they have released him and if so to whom and for how long? Does he have to return to that Godawful place? Is he safe right now? In a nutshell...anybody?

iirc, he is released for a week. then to the hearing. he is very safe right now, in his mom's loving caring arms.

[bkwits]

Can someone please tell me if they have released him and if so to whom and for how long? Does he have to return to that Godawful place? Is he safe right now? In a nutshell...anybody?

It seems that most of us are hoping that the judge will find him incompetent and he won't have to return to juvie. I:smile:MO, that is why Eryn moved to AZ. Does anyone know if Eryn brought her daughter to AZ.

[muska]

Regarding the post about Whiting keeping Carlyon on - I think Whiting may consider his position desirable right now. If, from his perspective, the case goes badly, he can blame it on Carlyon and the old regime. If it, in his opinion, goes well, he can take credit.

[muska]

Regarding Cherishlove's post about the poster at Channel 3. She has all along claimed to be Tanya's sister. She says they aren't sure who did this but they do believe the boy was there and knows what happened. She wants to know the truth. She never, in any posts, has said they are convinced the boy is the shooter.

She insists there was no divorce in the works. That could be true. If Candy is the only source of that rumor, she could be lying or TR could have just told her that. Is there any other proof about a divorce? I would not be inclined to believe much of what Candy said.

Of course I know that the poster may not be for real but she has been posting pretty much from the start. I would think the family could put a stop to it if someone was impersonating one of them.

[bkwits]

Regarding Cherishlove's post about the poster at Channel 3. She has all along claimed to be Tanya's sister. She says they aren't sure who did this but they do believe the boy was there and knows what happened. She wants to know the truth. She never, in any posts, has said they are convinced the boy is the shooter.

She insists there was no divorce in the works. That could be true. If Candy is the only source of that rumor, she could be lying or TR could have just told her that. Is there any other proof about a divorce? I would not be inclined to believe much of what Candy said.

Of course I know that the poster may not be for real but she has been posting pretty much from the start. I would think the family could put a stop to it if someone was impersonating one of them.


IMO, Tim did ask Candi to marry him. Whether it was in jest, or serious , I have no idea. Since at least some at the bar thought Tim was single, it seems that he was leading a double life (heck maybe even a triple life). Maybe he was telling Candi he had to go home on some weekends because of his daughters or mother or whatever. He was telling Tanya that he had to work that weekend (on the weekend of the shootings).

Cheating men can be quite resourceful. I met a woman who was married to a dentist for 20 years. He had two other wives. The third one brought him down.

[rusure?]

Anybody have any ideas about the timeline post?

[bkwits]

I posted this on the last thread before you started this one. I wanted to make sure yall read it and hopefully get some feed back on it?

Evidence:
Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after knowing something is wrong?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else to take place.
Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?

If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO.

First. VR was shot within the 3 min time span. It didn't take 3 min to do it.

Second. Same thing with Tim. It didn't take 8 minutes. Besides clocks can be off a few minutes here and there. It also prob took the neighbors a couple minutes to decide to call 911.

Just for starters.

[GentleBreeze]

Regarding the post about Whiting keeping Carlyon on - I think Whiting may consider his position desirable right now. If, from his perspective, the case goes badly, he can blame it on Carlyon and the old regime. If it, in his opinion, goes well, he can take credit.

He will be unable to do that imo. The buck stops with him now not the prior CA.

Didn't he mention that Carlyon is under Whiting's directives?

Whatever happened once he took office are decisions he is involved in. He would not sign his name to a legal document if it wasn't what he thought should be done imo.

imo

[rusure?]

IMO It's one of the tightest time lines ever and proves the boy was at the very least...right there.

I don't refute that the boy was right there. Heck fire, he lives there and found his dad dead. Of course he was right there, unless he ran to the neighbors house without even going to his house to find 2 dead men. No one denys him being there.

[GentleBreeze]

Then why hang around? You have stated this before.
The others are from AZ, not associated with this board.

Because I can and am entitled to do so and will.

I have never run away from a case because of majority opinions so why would I do so on this one? I wouldn't and won't.

I have not heard one person from St. John stand up and support this boy. The media would be salivating for anyone to speak out in his behalf, besides his attorneys.

imo

[wolfi_2]

I just noticed, that the last tread is closed, so I post this again!

For the GSR , just go into your kitchen put a bit of flour in a straw take a small piece of paper, form a ball (as bullet)and put it in into the straw also. Now blow through the straw (from the flour Site), How far will the flour go? The flour particles are very small, so you will notice the most of the flour will be in a cloud around the muzzle of your straw. GSR particles will be smaller than flour particles, those particles are that light weight that they can't take much energy from the shoot, the most of all particles will be in a cloud around the gun muzzle because the surrounding air will stop them immediately the same effect will have a feather, take a small one and try to throw it away . The boy would have a lot more of GSR on his clothes than they found. And this isn´t a theory, it's physic!

[rusure?]

First. VR was shot within the 3 min time span. It didn't take 3 min to do it.

Second. Same thing with Tim. It didn't take 8 minutes. Besides clocks can be off a few minutes here and there. It also prob took the neighbors a couple minutes to decide to call 911.

Just for starters.

That's what I'm talking about. It didn't take that long to do it, with a single shot or automatic. Even if it took the neighbors a couple of minutes to call 911, it still took too long. Even 5 minutes it too long, for anyone or any weapon. This timeline, I don't believe is accurate. We are basing the beginning of the timeline to Tim's phone call. I'm doubting the time of his call. Something just doesn't jive.

[rusure?]

I just noticed, that the last tread is closed, so I post this again!

For the GSR , just go into your kitchen put a bit of flour in a straw take a small piece of paper, form a ball (as bullet)and put it in into the straw also. Now blow through the straw (from the flour Site), How far will the flour go? The flour particles are very small, so you will notice the most of the flour will be in a cloud around the muzzle of your straw. GSR particles will be smaller than flour particles, those particles are that light weight that they can't take much energy from the shoot, the most of all particles will be in a cloud around the gun muzzle because the surrounding air will stop them immediately the same effect will have a feather, take a small one and try to throw it away . The boy would have a lot more of GSR on his clothes than they found. And this isn´t a theory, it's physic!

And if the boy was the shooter, he would have been moving forward as he shot each shot, not backwards away from the smoke. He would have had more gsr that 32 particles.

[rusure?]

Yes, He may have seen them.

Absolutly. I don't think this makes him the shooter, do you?

I think he may have witnessed who did it. Just speculating here, IMO, He may have said it was a car like grandpa's so he wouldn't have to come out and say it was grandpa. (if grandpa did it)

[rusure?]

How true.

Everyone knew Good Gawd was JusticeDawg immediately

Would you please stay on topic and stop baiting people for a fight so we can get on with the case at hand? It's becoming rather old and frustrating.

[GentleBreeze]

And if the boy was the shooter, he would have been moving forward as he shot each shot, not backwards away from the smoke. He would have had more gsr that 32 particles.

He said he walked into white smoke.

It will be interesting to learn where all the particles were found. If the GSR was up in the air and settling down on him then it should be found both in the front and back of his clothing not just the front.

imoo

[rusure?]

JusticeDawg, any ideas as to why the timeline doesn't seem feasable?
Where are the errors in it? Time of Tim's call?

[rusure?]

He said he walked into white smoke.

It will be interesting to learn where all the particles were found. If the GSR was up in the air and settling down on him then it should be found both in the front and back of his clothing not just the front.

imoo

And way more than 32 particles. All we know is they found 32 particles on his clothes. We do not know where. They didn't reveal that information. Just 32 particles. That's what? 3.2 particles per shot? And he said he walked into white smoke after the officers brought up about gsr possibly being on his clothes during their interrogation.

[bkwits]

I just noticed, that the last tread is closed, so I post this again!

For the GSR , just go into your kitchen put a bit of flour in a straw take a small piece of paper, form a ball (as bullet)and put it in into the straw also. Now blow through the straw (from the flour Site), How far will the flour go? The flour particles are very small, so you will notice the most of the flour will be in a cloud around the muzzle of your straw. GSR particles will be smaller than flour particles, those particles are that light weight that they can't take much energy from the shoot, the most of all particles will be in a cloud around the gun muzzle because the surrounding air will stop them immediately the same effect will have a feather, take a small one and try to throw it away . The boy would have a lot more of GSR on his clothes than they found. And this isn´t a theory, it's physic!

Wofi, If I was fooling around with white powder (flour) and a straw, what would my kids and grandkids think if they come over?

:blushing:

[GentleBreeze]

I'm still trying to figure out how the barrel got so close to the boys legs????

This is my take on that. Only the close range shot could have made that happen. If he stepped up close, to the already dying Tim, the barrel of the gun would be less than 2 feet away or even closer from Tim. He would have to be very close to the body himself. When one shoots a rifle they usually steady themselves with one foot out further than the other. That would make one of his feet and pants leg close to the victim when he fired into his head.

imoo

[bkwits]

Would you please stay on topic and stop baiting people for a fight so we can get on with the case at hand? It's becoming rather old and frustrating.

Iggy button is my friend. :wink:

[GentleBreeze]

You were complaining, not I.

I wasn't complaining.

You are the one that suggested I should leave.:rolleyes:

[freddief]

Bottom line, the boy admitted he did it...CASE CLOSED. I think he's guilty and I wouldn't want him sleeping in my house...creepy...Eryn should be a liitle bit scared having the boy in her house. The defense attorney said we want the boy back in school, but I don't want my daughter in school if he's in her school, so where does he go to school...this is way to creepy for me. Do any of you really want this boy in your school or at your home?

Will he get off? probably because no one wants to try an 8 year old and because the cops in St. Johns didnt do such a gret job.

Does he need counselling...yeah a lot!

[rusure?]

This is my take on that. Only the close range shot could have made that happen. If he stepped up close, to the already dying Tim, the barrel of the gun would be less than 2 feet away or even closer from Tim. He would have to be very close to the body himself. When one shoots a rifle they usually steady themselves with one foot out further than the other. That would make one of his feet and pants leg close to the victim when he fired into his head.

imoo

According to Tim's autopsy, 5 shots were not from close range. The only shot that does not specifically state not being close range is the one that grazed his head. This shot according the police records is suspected as being the one causing the hole in the security door. The bullet was never found.

[eagargal]

So we have about 30 posters here who don't think CR did this, and only 2 that think he did.

Some odds huh?

I too feel that CR committed this crime. I came to that conclusion after reading the court documents and with my personal history/observations with those involved. I salute those few who are willing to put a dissenting opinion out there and keep this board lively. I don't often have the time or energy to post, but I do enjoy the reading and I've learned a lot, also. Thanks!

[rusure?]

That timeline is way off. I have said that from the start.

So I guess we have to wait until the cell phone records are revealed. I noticed they were in the disclosure list. Hmmmm.

Why did it take Rodrigez so long to arrive at the scene?

BTW, I love your signiture.

[wolfi_2]

Wofi, If I was fooling around with white powder (flour) and a straw, what would my kids and grandkids think if they come over?

:blushing:


--it's time to go! :smile:

just try it with a feather, it's more clean!

[freddief]

a screen door can be opened and closed easily..thats why there was only 1 hole in the screen door..

[rusure?]

a screen door can be opened and closed easily..thats why there was only 1 hole in the screen door..

It was a metal security door according to police records and the photo.

[freddief]

I'm surprized Mrs Romans and Tiff haven't been vocal. But if they did, they'ld be lambasted by everyone for being mean to an 8 year old. It's a can't win proposition. Plus I bet they are tired of the press bugging them.

[rusure?]

Another question. Why isn't this guy somebody Amos on the witness list? There were several people who told police to check him out because he had a beef with Tim? Does anyone know anything more about this guy. He also drives a white vehicle

[freddief]

It's very lightweight, more like a screen door than a security door.

[rusure?]

Oh, I've been discussing this case with my husband for a few days and he knows I spend way too much time on this board. He asked me yesterday, "Which way was the wind blowing". :smile:

[rusure?]

It's very lightweight, more like a screen door than a security door.

Do you by any chance know what the make and model is of the door?

[GentleBreeze]

I too feel that CR committed this crime. I came to that conclusion after reading the court documents and with my personal history/observations with those involved. I salute those few who are willing to put a dissenting opinion out there and keep this board lively. I don't often have the time or energy to post, but I do enjoy the reading and I've learned a lot, also. Thanks!


Thank you for expressing your views. Just because others don't come here to post doesn't mean they think this boy is innocent.

I have always felt the time line was the most telling evidence.

There simply was not enough time for him to come upon both bodies enter the home, and do any of what he said he did once inside.

We know that Vinnie had already gone through the door by 4:52 pm. We also know that Tim at that time was very much alive and continued to be until almost 4:55 pm. The two men were both dead shortly thereafter and minutes later the boy already had enough time to be at the home of the neighbors waiting for the other boy's father to come home and see Tim's body laying there and then called 911 at 5:03 pm.

There absolutely was no time left after these men were brutally murdered, except to lay the gun on the cage and leave the residence so that he would not be found inside with his father's body on the stairway and another dead body on the porch.

I am so glad that many cell phones were used that day right around the time of these horrific events.

imoo

[rusure?]

Defense hasn't put up their witness list yet.

And by all means, don't for a second think that all of the people on the states witness list will testify to what "the government" wants them to say. :wink:

By jove. You're right about that.

[rusure?]

Thank you for expressing your views. Just because others don't come here to post doesn't mean they think this boy is innocent.

I have always felt the time line was the most telling evidence.

There simply was not enough time for him to come upon both bodies enter the home, and do any of what he said he did once inside.

We know that Vinnie had already gone through the door by 4:52 pm. We also know that Tim at that time was very much alive and continued to be until almost 4:55 pm. The two men were both dead shortly thereafter and minutes later the boy already had enough time to be at the home of the neighbors waiting for the other boy's father to come home and see Tim's body laying there and then called 911 at 5:03 pm.

There absolutely was no time left after these men where brutally murdered, except to lsay the gun on the cage and leave the residence so that he would not be found inside with his father's body on the stairway and another dead body on the porch.

I am so glad that many cell phones were used that day right around the time of these horrific events.

imoo

That timeline IMO leaves alot of questions, as I have indicated before. It will be interesting to see what the phone records show. However, they aren't listed on the DA's disclosure list, are they? At least, iirc they weren't. There is no feasable, logical reason for it to have taken sooo long to committ these murders in that timeline. The time intervals are toooo long regardless of what type weapon or who did it. IMO. Do you have any logical explanations to the time spans on the timeline?

[eagargal]

Got proof of personal history/observations with those involved?

Hmm, well yes, if I was trusting enough to post links from the Apache County Assessors office showing the addresses of my home and those of my family or if I let you leaf through my yearbooks, that would be tangible proof. I am not in the habit of carrying around a video camera to document my daily routine and conversations, so I guess there is no 'proof' regarding that aspect of my life.

Don't bait. It's not nice.

[bkwits]

a screen door can be opened and closed easily..thats why there was only 1 hole in the screen door..

It is not a screen door. It is a metal security door.

[rusure?]

She may have to run out and look. :wink:

Well, I'm also wondering why the bullett was not found. Someone said the door was metal which would have caused the bullet to break up into such small pieces it would not be discovered. If the door was lightweight like a screen door, then I would think the bullet could be found easily.:confused:

[bkwits]

Hmm, well yes, if I was trusting enough to post links from the Apache County Assessors office showing the addresses of my home and those of my family or if I let you leaf through my yearbooks, that would be tangible proof. I am not in the habit of carrying around a video camera to document my daily routine and conversations, so I guess there is no 'proof' regarding that aspect of my life.

Don't bait. It's not nice.

Pardon me, but I don't think it is baiting. The moderator often asks for proof of a personal involvement with the family/victims or other people involved with the crime being discussed. I don't know if that applies to you, but it may. I enjoy your posts and would like to see you keep posting. :smile:

[GentleBreeze]

That timeline IMO leaves alot of questions, as I have indicated before. It will be interesting to see what the phone records show. However, they aren't listed on the DA's disclosure list, are they? At least, iirc they weren't. There is no feasible, logical reason for it to have taken sooo long to committ these murders in that timeline. The time intervals are toooo long regardless of what type weapon or who did it. IMO. Do you have any logical explanations to the time spans on the timeline?

The time line may leave questions for you.

But to me they are very telling and they put him into such a small time box that nothing he said he did could have happened, except, putting the gun on the cage and runnig to the neighbors as fast as he could once he knew they were no longer quivering and shaking.

LOL And to think so many people have been saying for so long the time intervals are just way too tight!:smile: Now it is not tight enough! LOL

imoo

[rusure?]

The time line may leave questions for you.

But to me they are very telling and they put him into such a small time box that nothing he said he did could have happened, except, putting the gun on the cage and runnig to the neighbors as fast as he could once he knew they were no longer quivering and shaking.

LOL And to think so many people have been saying for so long the time intervals are just way too tight!:smile: Now it is not tight enough! LOL

imoo

Well, I'm not talking about too tight. I'm talking about the whole timeline, not just a part of it. I've consider the timeline a little more in depth since I've come on the board and still believe that timeline is way off for ANYONE or ANYWEAPON to have done the crime according to the timeline. Something is not right about this timeline.

My interest in the timeline was sparked by someone who said the timeline was the most important piece of evidence. I would think that LE or anyone else investigating the case would pay very close attention and give more scrutiny to the timeline since it's the most important piece of evidence.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, I'm not talking about too tight. I'm talking about the whole timeline, not just a part of it. I've consider the timeline a little more in depth since I've come on the board and still believe that timeline is way off for ANYONE or ANYWEAPON to have done the crime according to the timeline. Something is not right about this timeline.

My interest in the timeline was sparked by someone who said the timeline was the most important piece of evidence. I would think that LE or anyone else investigating the case would pay very close attention and give more scrutiny to the timeline since it's the most important piece of evidence.

How long do you think it takes to murder two people who are unarmed?

I wholeheartedly agree. I think the time line is the most compelling evidence they have.

How do you know they haven't paid attention to time lines? They look for times concerning certain events and they found them. I highly doubt this tight time line went over Judge Roca's head either.

imoo

[bkwits]

JusticeDawg needs posts to keep the board alive and get paid. He'll say anything to stir the pot ..he rarely cites anything of substance and come up with all kinds of theories that make no sense. Maybe he will blame Vince & Tim for the shootings.

You have posted that you think the boy shot the two men to death. If that is true, isn't Vince partially responsible for giving the child easy access to multiple firearms and ammo?

If it is not true that the boy shot them, maybe he didn't have access to ammo for his Chipmunk rifle. As far as we know LE didn't find any .22 ammo.

IMO

[freddief]

I think Tim and Vince are the only people spared!

But there's been no lack of ridiculous fabricated reasons why everyone else in the county would want them dead. imo

You're right, he accused them of being drug dealers, having meth labs, beating each other up, cheating on each other, going to bars all the time, and much, much more.....I guess they weren't the victims...they were the perps.

[PensiveOne]

Two greiving widows and two grieving daughters and the victims both believe CR did it.

Now wait a second. "the victims" both believe...? What are you saying? Are you "channeling" the spirits of the victims? How would you know what the dead victims thought? Were you there?

[muska]

Those that know the boy the best, his grandparents and Tiffany believed he was capable.

IMO that carries a lot more weight than anonymous posters on a message board.

If family members truly thought the boy was capable of this, would they have allowed weapons and ammo to be left out and available to the child? I don't think so.

[rusure?]

Two greiving widows and two grieving daughters and the victims both believe CR did it.

It is not uncommon for victims families to believe that who ever is arrested is guilty as charged, whether true or not, simply because the person is arrested and charged.

[freddief]

Now wait a second. "the victims" both believe...? What are you saying? Are you "channeling" the spirits of the victims? How would you know what the dead victims thought? Were you there?

so Mrs Romans, her daughters and Tiff aren't victims....oh yes they are also the perps.

[eagargal]

Pardon me, but I don't think it is baiting. The moderator often asks for proof of a personal involvement with the family/victims or other people involved with the crime being discussed. I don't know if that applies to you, but it may. I enjoy your posts and would like to see you keep posting. :smile:

Really? I would be happy to chat with the moderator. Will she PM me? Personally, I think it's rather grandiose to claim a relationship to anyone who is 'high-profile' and normally would have never done so here, however when the theories became almost personal attacks on the victims' families, I felt I had to speak up for them.

[GentleBreeze]

Yeah, supposed drug dealers :rolleyes: yet neither one has been arrested and convicted for that. No drugs found in the home or in their possession. No drugs found in their systems when they died, UNEXPECTEDLY, by multiple gunshots.

imo

[rusure?]

How long do you think it takes to murder two people who are unarmed?

I wholeheartedly agree. I think the time line is the most compelling evidence they have.

How do you know they haven't paid attention to time lines? They look for times concerning certain events and they found them. I highly doubt this tight time line went over Judge Roca's head either.

imoo

How could they. That had not even gotten the phone records yet.
Look at the time span I posted with questions about the time line. It would have taken way less time than ANYONE with ANYWEAPON to have done it according to the timeline.

[muska]

I posted this on the last thread before you started this one. I wanted to make sure yall read it and hopefully get some feed back on it?

Evidence:
Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after knowing something is wrong?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else to take place.
Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?

If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO.

This is very helpful. Thanks for putting it together. It does suggest new angles to consider.

[bkwits]

Really? I would be happy to chat with the moderator. Will she PM me? Personally, I think it's rather grandiose to claim a relationship to anyone who is 'high-profile' and normally would have never done so here, however when the theories became almost personal attacks on the victims' families, I felt I had to speak up for them.

The moderator is Coldwater. She may PM or ban until you can prove your relationship with the victims or principals in this case. It has been done quite recently, in fact.

[Jacobtk]

"Emitted from the muzzle" the boy wasn't in front of the muzzle. This is discussing the pattern and residue found on victims which could be helpful determining the distance the shooter was from them.

The boy would have been by the muzzle of the gun. In order to shoot down at someone, one must point the weapon at a downward angle. Given the boy's height, the muzzle would be close to his legs. Since the residue does not shoot out in a straight line, it is more likely than not a great deal of it would end up on the boy's pants and also the surfaces around where the shootings took place.

[PensiveOne]

so Mrs Romans, her daughters and Tiff aren't victims....oh yes they are also the perps.

You said it I didn't. They are certainly suspects. Who are you to speak for the victims?

[rusure?]

But that's not the case here. Not only was he arrested and charged, he confessed ( falsely or not) had access and owned the alleged murder weapon, was capable of using it, timeline puts him right there, finger prints on the bullet box, GSR doesn't exclude him, grandparent said they were too harsh on the boy and if any boy was capable, it was him. Oh and one of those grieving widows claims to have heard the boy while speaking with her husband...right before he was shot to death.

You are indeed to your opinion. However, the evidence is not proven yet, it is circumstancial. If you wish to base your opinion based on a false confession, a questionable timeline, finger prints on a bullet box that he probably touched at another time, gsr that doesn't include him, opinions of others, fine. But, most would base their opinion on proven facts, especially when it involves a child and finding out the truth, not based on opinion. Enjoy your opinion.

And please stop the attacks on people who do not share your opinion. Attacks begets attacks. Civility begets civility.

[secrets]

Regarding the voice TR wife heard, this seems logical to me (if we consider she is telling the truth):

1. VR and TR arrive , and VR is walking to the house, while TR is talking with the wife.
2. At the same time, child is walking to the house, expecting his father, or stepmother to arrive home approx..
3. The child sees coming from the street something going on, calls for TR who is in the car on the phone.
4. TR hears him and says to his wife, the boy is calling him, and the next minute notices things are happening or maybe even hears the shooting inside (he could for sure know what the sounds mean), and says to his wife 'something is wrong' and ends the call.

Then, everything happens..
So, TR's wife could really be right in some way, but this I believe is what happened, and that is why the child is now accused.
I believe the child is the biggest victim of all.

[bkwits]

so Mrs Romans, her daughters and Tiff aren't victims....oh yes they are also the perps.


In your previous post, you said the widows, the daughters and the two victims?

So who are the two victims, if not Tim and Vincent?

[Jacobtk]

IMO It's one of the tightest time lines ever and proves the boy was at the very least...right there.

No, the time line do not prove anything. They show that it is possible for him to have been there. It is also possible that he arrived at the scene as he initially described. The state has yet to explain where the boy was for the two hours he was out of school. Without that information, there is no way to confirm anything.

However, assuming the boy was there, it would appear that if the state cannot prove he did it, they are simply charging him because he has not told them who did. That is not only idiotic, but unethical.

You believe this child would not have spoken up after being locked up in juvie for ...how long now? Wow, that's some tough kid. Never seen a child give a false confession and then not recant shortly afterwards.

If you read the court transcripts, Brewer has repeatedly demanded that no one at the jail talk to the boy about the case. The only people he would recant to then would be his mother and his attorneys, which is bound under a gag order and client privilege. Also, what Avila did might have been fairly effective. Her tactics were no different than the grooming tactics of pedophiles, so the boy may actually believe he did it in the same way abused children believe they wanted the sex.

[rusure?]

This is very helpful. Thanks for putting it together. It does suggest new angles to consider.

Thank you Muska. That is my point in this. The new angles to consider.

[rusure?]

Regarding the voice TR wife heard, this seems logical to me (if we consider she is telling the truth):

1. VR and TR arrive , and VR is walking to the house, while TR is talking with the wife.
2. At the same time, child is walking to the house, expecting his father, or stepmother to arrive home approx..
3. The child sees coming from the street something going on, calls for TR who is in the car on the phone.
4. TR hears him and says to his wife, the boy is calling him, and the next minute notices things are happening or maybe even hears the shooting inside (he could for sure know what the sounds mean), and says to his wife 'something is wrong' and ends the call.

Then, everything happens..
So, TR's wife could really be right in some way, but this I believe is what happened, and that is why the child is now accused.
I believe the child is the biggest victim of all.

Your post, IMO, is very logical and explains the questions of this case.

[PensiveOne]

If Justice Dawg can claim to know Vince is rolling in his grave, certainly any compassionate person can defend murder victims.

Are you Freddief, too?

[GentleBreeze]

How could they. That had not even gotten the phone records yet.
Look at the time span I posted with questions about the time line. It would have taken way less time than ANYONE with ANYWEAPON to have done it according to the timeline.

Like I said you are entitled to your opinion.

The time line fits like a glove imo for two homicides and 10 shots to the victim.

No time left for walking casually up the street going toward the home and then seeing the body of Tim and then go in the home put the book bag under the table, shoot at the car (btw where is that bullet casing?) and then go sit beside his father's dead body. Not even for one minute much less sit there for 30 minutes. And isn't it strange that he says when he first saw his father's face it was already covered in blood yet then he says he shot him to end his suffering by shooting him in the head. Well if the blood was already there, Vinnie had already been shot in the head.

Nope it just does not compute imo. It does compute however to the time line giving him just enough time after the killings to get the heck out of there so he wouldn't be caught with a dead body inside and one outside laying on the porch.

imoo

[rusure?]

Practice what you are now preaching

How on earth do you consider my post to be an attack against you? I was stating facts and also telling you that you are allowed to your opinion and to enjoy your opinion. If you consider that post a direct attack against you, then I'm sorry not that I posted but that your opinion was that it is an attack against you. It was not meant to be an attack against you personally.

[rusure?]

Like I said you are entitled to your opinion.

The time line fits like a glove imo for two homicides and 10 shots to the victim.

No time left for walking casually up the street going toward the home and then seeing the body of Tim and then go in the home put the book bag under the table, shoot at the car (btw where is that bullet casing?) and then go sit beside his father's dead body. Not even for one minute much less sit there for 30 minutes. And isn't it strange that he says when he first saw his father's face it was already covered in blood yet then he says he shot him to end his suffering by shooting him in the head. Well if the blood was already there, Vinnie had already been shot in the head.

Nope it just does not compute imo. It does compute however to the time line giving him just enough time after the killings to get the heck out of there so he wouldn't be caught with a dead body inside and one outside laying on the porch.

imoo

Didn't Vinnie recieve 2 shots to the head?

[secrets]

Your post, IMO, is very logical and explains the questions of this case.

When looking for answers, people look from every angle possible, and giving all the reasons some could think of. But, in mine, and I believe most of people's experience, the truth is always clean and simple, never sensational.
In my opinion, a string of simple events occurred, and the child got mixed up in the middle of it. Then the 'grownups' started to complicate the truth.

[rusure?]

Circumstantial evidence is a collection of facts that, when considered together, can be used to infer a conclusion about something unknown.

circumstantial evidence -- such as fingerprint evidence -- is usually the best available evidence to support an inference as to the facts of the case.

A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence

What finger print eveidence? So far, they only reported the boys finger prints to the box of bullets. No fingerprints on the bullets in the box, which he would have touched if he got bullets out of the box. From the photo, those bullets appeared to be turned everywhich way, which tells me if he got bullets from that box, he would have prints on bullets in the box. Along with consideration of circumstancial evidence you also have to use logic in assessing the circumstancial evidence along with other circumstancial evidence being evaluated using logic.

[rusure?]

When looking for answers, people look from every angle possible, and giving all the reasons some could think of. But, in mine, and I believe most of people's experience, the truth is always clean and simple, never sensational.
In my opinion, a string of simple events occurred, and the child got mixed up in the middle of it. Then the 'grownups' started to complicate the truth.

That is by far the best assesment I've seen yet. Thank you for stating it.

[GentleBreeze]

Regarding the voice TR wife heard, this seems logical to me (if we consider she is telling the truth):

1. VR and TR arrive , and VR is walking to the house, while TR is talking with the wife.
2. At the same time, child is walking to the house, expecting his father, or stepmother to arrive home approx..
3. The child sees coming from the street something going on, calls for TR who is in the car on the phone.
4. TR hears him and says to his wife, the boy is calling him, and the next minute notices things are happening or maybe even hears the shooting inside (he could for sure know what the sounds mean), and says to his wife 'something is wrong' and ends the call.

Then, everything happens..
So, TR's wife could really be right in some way, but this I believe is what happened, and that is why the child is now accused.
I believe the child is the biggest victim of all.



The boy states when he walked up the street toward the house, Tim was already lying there on the porch so how and why would he call out to a dying man that was already down and defenseless, to help him?


:confused:

[Jacobtk]

But to me they are very telling and they put him into such a small time box that nothing he said he did could have happened, except, putting the gun on the cage and runnig to the neighbors as fast as he could once he knew they were no longer quivering and shaking.

Children have a very different perception of time, so the time frame the boy gave in his interrogation ought to be taken with a grain of salt. I am around a lot of abused kids and most of them cannot give you precise time frames of when and how long they were abused without citing a holiday or event. My own memory of things that happened to me are skewed because at 8 years old, ten minutes felt like an hour. I distinctly recall once looking at a clock in third grade thinking that I was almost out of school only to find it was barely 11 o'clock.

To my knowledge, the times of death have not been released. Usually the time of death is released. Perhaps I missed it, but I do not think I did. I think that may be for good reason. They could have occurred within a short span of time (only a handful of minutes) or the deaths could have been earlier than the call times Tiffany and Tanya gave the police.

[rusure?]

"such as" was used in the sentance as an example.

That's fine. Such as. The fact is finger print evidence so far has only shown the boy's print on the box. Assess that with the other circumstancial evidence logically.

[muska]

When looking for answers, people look from every angle possible, and giving all the reasons some could think of. But, in mine, and I believe most of people's experience, the truth is always clean and simple, never sensational.
In my opinion, a string of simple events occurred, and the child got mixed up in the middle of it. Then the 'grownups' started to complicate the truth.

This sounds very logical to me. I wonder if the facts will ever be sorted out.

[PensiveOne]

I can respond to any post I choose to.

That's true, but you can't answer the question unless you are Freddief. I can respond to your response, too, anyway I choose.

[rusure?]

Children have a very different perception of time, so the time frame the boy gave in his interrogation ought to be taken with a grain of salt. I am around a lot of abused kids and most of them cannot give you precise time frames of when and how long they were abused without citing a holiday or event. My own memory of things that happened to me are skewed because at 8 years old, ten minutes felt like an hour. I distinctly recall once looking at a clock in third grade thinking that I was almost out of school only to find it was barely 11 o'clock.

To my knowledge, the times of death have not been released. Usually the time of death is released. Perhaps I missed it, but I do not think I did. I think that may be for good reason. They could have occurred within a short span of time (only a handful of minutes) or the deaths could have been earlier than the call times Tiffany and Tanya gave the police.

Yes. That's why my timeline questions. Do you have any ideas about the timeline questions?

[bkwits]

What finger print eveidence? So far, they only reported the boys finger prints to the box of bullets. No fingerprints on the bullets in the box, which he would have touched if he got bullets out of the box. From the photo, those bullets appeared to be turned everywhich way, which tells me if he got bullets from that box, he would have prints on bullets in the box. Along with consideration of circumstancial evidence you also have to use logic in assessing the circumstancial evidence along with other circumstancial evidence being evaluated using logic.

Wasn't it listed as just one print on the box?

[GentleBreeze]

Didn't Vinnie receive 2 shots to the head?

Yes, and the boy said he shot him twice, both would have blood coming from the wounds. So why shoot him to end his suffering if he had already been shot in the head leaving his face covered in blood?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Wasn't it listed as just one print on the box?

All I read was his fingerprints were found on the box of shells.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

But that's not the case here. Not only was he arrested and charged, he confessed ( falsely or not) had access and owned the alleged murder weapon, was capable of using it, timeline puts him right there, finger prints on the bullet box, GSR doesn't exclude him, grandparent said they were too harsh on the boy and if any boy was capable, it was him. Oh and one of those grieving widows claims to have heard the boy while speaking with her husband...right before he was shot to death.

Tanya may very well believe it was him, but she only met the boy once and it is not very likely that she could recognize his voice over the phone. According to her statement Tim told her is was the boy, which means he could have lied. It is also possible she never heard anything. Given that the records have not been released and Tanya's unwillingness to cooperate, one should question whether she spoke to him at all. The coerced confession is so improbable that it takes the total dismissal of the favored "commonsense" to believe anything the boy says. The only thing that is clear is that he is lying, which means nothing he says can be taken as truthful until it can be otherwise verified. Given that his description of shooting the men does not match how the men were shot, I cannot see how one could prove anything he said. The fingerprint and GPR could have been deposited at anytime and there is no way to determine when. The comments by grandparents seem suspect, so until they testify in court, it is unwise to trust any statements gathered by by Melnick or Rodriquez.

[rusure?]

Wasn't it listed as just one print on the box?

I think so. But, there weren't any prints inside the box reported.

[secrets]

The boy states when he walked up the street toward the house, Tim was already lying there on the porch so how and why would he call out to a dying man that was already down and defenseless, to help him?


:confused:

I would really not start to comment on the things that were said during the interrogation, I said that is what I believe happened. I will have to go out now, but later this evening I will continue on this topic.

[GentleBreeze]

Children have a very different perception of time, so the time frame the boy gave in his interrogation ought to be taken with a grain of salt. I am around a lot of abused kids and most of them cannot give you precise time frames of when and how long they were abused without citing a holiday or event. My own memory of things that happened to me are skewed because at 8 years old, ten minutes felt like an hour. I distinctly recall once looking at a clock in third grade thinking that I was almost out of school only to find it was barely 11 o'clock.

To my knowledge, the times of death have not been released. Usually the time of death is released. Perhaps I missed it, but I do not think I did. I think that may be for good reason. They could have occurred within a short span of time (only a handful of minutes) or the deaths could have been earlier than the call times Tiffany and Tanya gave the police.


Oh I think they are sharper than you give them credit for. They sure know how much time they have before their parents will be walking in the door.

I don't think even this kid would think that one second or one minute equaled to 30 minites.

imoo

[rusure?]

Yes, and the boy said he shot him twice, both would have blood coming from the wounds. So why shoot him to end his suffering if he had already been shot in the head leaving his face covered in blood?

imoo

He said he shot him twice. Did he say he shot him both times in the head? Vincent also recieved a shot in the back, and one in the arm.

The child also said he shot him twice after he was explained to and question about how gsr might be on him. He had to say something in case there was gsr on him. He had to come up with some sort of explaination after being told it would be on him. He's 8 years old, what other explanation could a 8 year old have for it being on him? They weren't accepting it being there because there was alot of white smoke in the house. What else could he say at 8 years old. He's not smart enough to go into the the specifics of how gsr could be on him if he walked through it. He wasn't smart enough to know there waas only 32 particles on him. Tell me, what else could he have said?

[Jacobtk]

No time left for walking casually up the street going toward the home and then...

So where was he for the two hours after he got out of school and before the shootings occurred? Tiffany would have come home to drop off whatever she bought and then left back out. If he was, would she not have seen him? That is a huge gap in the time line that no one seems to want to explain. The boy is missing for two hours and then suddenly appears, kills two men in 11 minutes, immediately concocts a story about a white car and then tells the neighbors?

And isn't it strange that he says when he first saw his father's face it was already covered in blood yet then he says he shot him to end his suffering by shooting him in the head. Well if the blood was already there, Vinnie had already been shot in the head. Nope it just does not compute.

It does if you go back and look at the video or read the transcript. He states he saw blood around his father's head first and it is only after Avila grooms him that he states that he shot his father because he was suffering. It would take several minutes for the blood to pool and that is a very specific detail, along with Tim's head being wedged between the screen door. In short, the claim about shooting his father and Tim most likely is a lie prompted by Avila because what the boy initially states (sans his concept of time) actually matches the scene whereas his "confession" is not even close.

[GentleBreeze]

What kid would walk around the block repeatedly carrying his book bag?

What kid after seeing his dad's friend dead laying on the porch, would think to put his book bag under the kitchen table?

imoo

[freddief]

What kid would walk around the block repeatedly carrying his book bag?

It's the boy's alibi. And the least plausible. He walked around the block an hour and a half. Of course none of the neighbors have come forward to corroborate this (that we know of). You think he'ld have to go to bathroom or get a drink, but no he wants to walk around the block an hour and a half cause he knows he's going to be in trouble.

[GentleBreeze]

He said he shot him twice. Did he say he shot him both times in the head? Vincent also recieved a shot in the back, and one in the arm.

The child also said he shot him twice after he was explained to and question about how gsr might be on him. He had to say something in case there was gsr on him. He had to come up with some sort of explanation after being told it would be on him. He's 8 years old, what other explanation could a 8 year old have for it being on him? They weren't accepting it being there because there was alot of white smoke in the house. What else could he say at 8 years old. He's not smart enough to go into the the specifics of how gsr could be on him if he walked through it. He wasn't smart enough to know there waas only 32 particles on him. Tell me, what else could he have said?

The boy was taught to end the suffering of small game by shooting them in the head.

I don't think he shot his father in the right shoulder blade and his elbow to end his suffering.

imoo

[rusure?]

What kid after seeing his dad's friend dead laying on the porch, would think to put his book bag under the kitchen table?

imoo

Any child would think to say that if he is repeated questioned about his statements and practically called a liar. What recourse did he have.

[Jacobtk]

I don't think even this kid would think that one second or one minute equaled to 30 minutes.

Well, I live with an 8-year-old and his perception of time does not appear to be the same as an adult's. Neither do his friends' perception appear to be the same.

However, is it not possible that emotional distressed cause by coming home and finding his father and his housemate dead could distort the boy's recollection of how long he was in the home? I am not asking whether you agree, just whether it is possible for trauma to change a person's perception of time.

[GentleBreeze]

I would really not start to comment on the things that were said during the interrogation, I said that is what I believe happened. I will have to go out now, but later this evening I will continue on this topic.

But that had nothing to do with any coerced confession. He was telling them what he did that day and how he came upon the crime scene.

I am sure he told them this same story the day they talked with him about discovering the bodies.

He said Tim was already laying on the porch.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

The boy had two hours to concoct his tale. The boy lied from the start. No child is going to walk around the block, even twice, while hauling his back pack.

Then where was he during that time?

[rusure?]

The boy was taught to end the suffering of small game by shooting them in the head.

I don't think he shot his father in the right shoulder blade and his elbow to end his suffering.

imoo

And I don't think nor believe he shot his father both times in the head either. He said he shot him when he saw blood on his face. He was backed into a corner by the questoins and came up with something he thought would explain himself to the officer calling him a liar. He wanted out of there. He saw his father dead! He was still in pajamas.

That's how a coerced confession comes about. The person is giving the false confession because they see no way out except to tell the interagators what they think the interagators want to hear. They think confessing would be better for them because they do not concieve the consequences of confessing to something they didn't do.
It's pretty simple to understand an 8 year old doing the false confession, don't you think? That's why there are laws against coercion. That's why confessions get thrown out.

They had him in there for an hour. No 8 year old is gonna sit and talk for an hour about one subject.

[rusure?]

His book bag was found there.

His first version ....he says he never went in the house after school.

He could have been somewhere playing and put his book bag down. He was gone for a long time. I know when I was a kid, if I wanted to play outside, I would put my bookbag down and pick it up when I was ready to go home.

[rusure?]

It's the boy's alibi. And the least plausible. He walked around the block an hour and a half. Of course none of the neighbors have come forward to corroborate this (that we know of). You think he'ld have to go to bathroom or get a drink, but no he wants to walk around the block an hour and a half cause he knows he's going to be in trouble.


What time did he in fact get off the bus?? Again as has been stated, adnausium, a child his age has no concept of the span of time. For an example,my daughter told me she ran away from home and sat in the blackberry patch for hours. Turns out, she was only gone for 10 minutes. She was nearly 8 at the time.

[Hawk]

First. VR was shot within the 3 min time span. It didn't take 3 min to do it.

Second. Same thing with Tim. It didn't take 8 minutes. Besides clocks can be off a few minutes here and there. It also prob took the neighbors a couple minutes to decide to call 911.

Just for starters.

The first shot to Mr. Romero could well have been the one above the ear. After Mr. Romero fell, with his brain ripped to pieces, the shooter wasn't in a hurry to shoot him again.
There was plenty of time.

[GentleBreeze]

He could have been somewhere playing and put his book bag down. He was gone for a long time. I know when I was a kid, if I wanted to play outside, I would put my bookbag down and pick it up when I was ready to go home.

He sure was gone long enough that others would have seen him going around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around the block imo.


imoo

[freddief]

And I don't think nor believe he shot his father both times in the head either. He said he shot him when he saw blood on his face. He was backed into a corner by the questoins and came up with something he thought would explain himself to the officer calling him a liar. He wanted out of there. He saw his father dead! He was still in pajamas.

That's how a coerced confession comes about. The person is giving the false confession because they see no way out except to tell the interagators what they think the interagators want to hear. They think confessing would be better for them because they do not concieve the consequences of confessing to something they didn't do.
It's pretty simple to understand an 8 year old doing the false confession, don't you think? That's why there are laws against coercion. That's why confessions get thrown out.

They had him in there for an hour. No 8 year old is gonna sit and talk for an hour about one subject.


No boy will sit for an hour and a half? My point! No boy will walk around the block for an hour and half without going home,,,

[rusure?]

He wasn't called on lying when he gave his first account. He seemed relaxed and..... if innocent, had no reason to lie. Yet he did. About something as simple as a book bag

imo

We do not know that for a fact. What time did he get off the bus? Do you know for a fact what time? We could include it in the timeline if we knew for a fact what time he got off. Do we know for a fact what direction he went after getting off the bus. Do we know for a fact if the direction he went after getting off the bus was his normal route. Do we know for a fact he was actually on the bus or that he got off somewhere else and walked? These are facts would be very helpful in answering the questions you ask. From these facts one can arrive at a sensible answer.

[rusure?]

Then why lie? Why not just say so?

Maybe he was afraid of getting into trouble for what ever he was doing. To a child that age, getting into trouble for anything is about as major as being in trouble for murder. The have no concept of degrees of wrongdoing. It all spells touble and disappointment from the parents, which to a child is a fate worse that death.

[Hawk]

No boy will sit for an hour and a half? My point! No boy will walk around the block for an hour and half without going home,,,

That's a major assumption to say say what an 8 year old boy might do. They are as predictable as which way the wind will blow.

[rusure?]

He sure was gone long enough that others would have seen him going around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around the block imo.


imoo

How could anybody see him? There were not people in the neighborhood at home. And if there were people home, how many people sit and look out their window for an hour and a half to see anybody walking by or pay close attention to it, especially a kid?

[freddief]

We do not know that for a fact. What time did he get off the bus? Do you know for a fact what time? We could include it in the timeline if we knew for a fact what time he got off. Do we know for a fact what direction he went after getting off the bus. Do we know for a fact if the direction he went after getting off the bus was his normal route. Do we know for a fact he was actually on the bus or that he got off somewhere else and walked? These are facts would be very helpful in answering the questions you ask. From these facts one can arrive at a sensible answer.

Typically 2:45 to 3pm. It would be public knowledge. You could call Coronado School and ask what time they drop off grade schoolers. They get out at 2:15. They have to finish by 3:15 to pick up middle schoolers.

[rusure?]

That's a major assumption to say say what an 8 year old boy might do. They are as predictable as which way the wind will blow.

Maybe that's why my husband asked me what way the wind was blowing during the murders.:laugh:

[bkwits]

Typically 2:45 to 3pm. It would be public knowledge. You could call Coronado School and ask what time they drop off grade schoolers. They get out at 2:15. They have to finish by 3:15 to pick up middle schoolers.

Someone else familiar with the school stated that the child got out of school at 3 pm. It was prob 3:30 or after when he was dropped off at the corner.

Do you think the parents, Vince and Tiff, would leave him unattended for that many hours?

[rusure?]

Typically 2:45 to 3pm. It would be public knowledge. You could call Coronado School and ask what time they drop off grade schoolers. They get out at 2:15. They have to finish by 3:15 to pick up middle schoolers.

Yes, I could call and find out. Typically 2:45 to 3 is when school lets out around here but the bus doesn't get here till 4pm. I could call but I'm saying we do not know for a fact yet what time the bus dropped him off. Why don't people who question him going around the block for 2 hours call and find out and they would have a fact. He said he went around for 10 times. It does not take 2 hours to go around the block 10 times. He said he finished walking at about 4:30. I don't believe he got off the bus at 3. It's not a fact my opinion is based on, but going by the norms of times of school letting out and when a bus drops kids off.

[GentleBreeze]

We do not know that for a fact. What time did he get off the bus? Do you know for a fact what time? We could include it in the timeline if we knew for a fact what time he got off. Do we know for a fact what direction he went after getting off the bus. Do we know for a fact if the direction he went after getting off the bus was his normal route. Do we know for a fact he was actually on the bus or that he got off somewhere else and walked? These are facts would be very helpful in answering the questions you ask. From these facts one can arrive at a sensible answer.

The boy told you what he did, don't you believe him?

Why would he lie about that part? This had nothing to do with him being the accused murderer, he was telling them what he did when he got off the bus. Even drew them this elaborate map and notating every little thing along the way.

I think Hawk put up a link that says the school completely closes at 4 pm. So I would think he got out around 3 pm and arrived home a few minutes later on the bus, since the school wasn't far from him.

I could understand if he walked with some of his friends or even talked to some more he knew were home or even played ball in a neighboring yard but it is very far fetched imo that he would be walking by himself for all that time. He had friends in the neighborhood or did he walk some and was in deep thought? And if he was just killing time then why didn't he get Cage's attention or go over and talk with them?

imoo

[rusure?]

The first shot to Mr. Romero could well have been the one above the ear. After Mr. Romero fell, with his brain ripped to pieces, the shooter wasn't in a hurry to shoot him again.
There was plenty of time.

So, what was the shooter doing? Was he upstairs and found what they were looking for?

[freddief]

Public fact school gets out 2:15. Call Coronado school. He would be a latchkey kid for about 1 1/2 hours 2 days a week.

[GentleBreeze]

The first shot to Mr. Romero could well have been the one above the ear. After Mr. Romero fell, with his brain ripped to pieces, the shooter wasn't in a hurry to shoot him again.
There was plenty of time.

Yep, even time for him to go back in the house and shoot him again just to make sure he was good and dead. The shooter knew by then that Vinnie was down for the count.

imoo

[freddief]

Public fact Middle School get out at 3:15 so the busdrivers have to be at the middle school at about 3:15 so they have to have had dropped him off by 3:15.

[rusure?]

I can't see how it matters. It would change nothing that we know already.

He was in that house before the men got there.

imo

OK, then by your logic. Does it matter if he went home first? He may have went to the bathroom and put his bookbag down and then went out walking? Does any of that really matter. We know he came home and found the men dead.

[freddief]

OK, then by your logic. Does it matter if he went home first? He may have went to the bathroom and put his bookbag down and then went out walking? Does any of that really matter. We know he came home and found the men dead.

Or he came home and planned to kill VR.

[rusure?]

This child understood murdering two men would land him in juvie. That's why he lied.

imo

He probably thought that anything that would get him into trouble would land him in juvie.

[rusure?]

Someone else familiar with the school stated that the child got out of school at 3 pm. It was prob 3:30 or after when he was dropped off at the corner.

Do you think the parents, Vince and Tiff, would leave him unattended for that many hours?

Well, if the bus dropped him off at 3:30, then there was only an hour and 15 minutes before the men got home.

[GentleBreeze]

How could anybody see him? There were not people in the neighborhood at home. And if there were people home, how many people sit and look out their window for an hour and a half to see anybody walking by or pay close attention to it, especially a kid?

There were people at home. Remember he said he cut down different streets not just the street he lived on and other kids got off of that bus. He recalled several kids names himself and the officer asked him about others she knew that lived in the neighborhood.

Yet no one seems to have seen this boy walking around and around and around.

I pay much closer attention to neighborhood children I see than I do the adults in my neighborhood.

imoo

[rusure?]

The boy told you what he did, don't you believe him?

Why would he lie about that part? This had nothing to do with him being the accused murderer, he was telling them what he did when he got off the bus. Even drew them this elaborate map and notating every little thing along the way.

I think Hawk put up a link that says the school completely closes at 4 pm. So I would think he got out around 3 pm and arrived home a few minutes later on the bus, since the school wasn't far from him.

I could understand if he walked with some of his friends or even talked to some more he knew were home or even played ball in a neighboring yard but it is very far fetched imo that he would be walking by himself for all that time. He had friends in the neighborhood or did he walk some and was in deep thought? And if he was just killing time then why didn't he get Cage's attention or go over and talk with them?

imoo

The grammer school is not quite a block from here. The bus doesn't get here till 4 because they also go to the middle school to pick up kids and then does the round.

We don't know for a fact what time the bus dropped him off.

[freddief]

IMO It doesn't really matter. Let's say for the sake of argument it was only twice. He still wouldn't have done it with his book bag. He lied and said he did not go in his house until he discovered Tim dead in his front doorway.

I do not believe he would go past a dead Tim, find his father dead and then put his book bag under the kitchen table. It defies all logic and common sense.

IMO

It's a fact Coronado Elementary School gets out 2:15 with some classes getting out at 2:20. My daughter goes there. They have one set of busses. They need to deliver the kids because they have to pick up Jr. Highschoolers at 3:15 with some classes getting out at 3:20. Then they deliver those kids and then pick up the highschoolers.

[GentleBreeze]

Or he came home and planned to kill VR.

Yep, freddie, I agree. He may have walked a block or two in deep thought but I think he went home shortly after then and he got the gun and he got the bullets and he waited.

I even wonder as he waited is when he wrote the letter titled, XXXXXX, My Family.

imoo

[rusure?]

There were people at home. Remember he said he cut down different streets not just the street he lived on and other kids got off of that bus. He recalled several kids names himself and the officer asked him about others she knew that lived in the neighborhood.

Yet no one seems to have seen this boy walking around and around and around.

I pay much closer attention to neighborhood children I see than I do the adults in my neighborhood.

imoo

Do you sit at your window for an hour and a half straight watching, never leaving your window?

[freddief]

Yep, freddie, I agree. He may have walked a block or two in deep thought but I think he went home shortly after then and he got the gun and he got the bullets and he waited.

I even wonder as he waited is when he wrote the letter titled, XXXXXX, My Family.

imoo

I hadn't thought of that Gentle Breeze...kind of a confession/justification before he did it. Great thinking! Now this is making more sense.

[GentleBreeze]

The grammer school is not quite a block from here. The bus doesn't get here till 4 because they also go to the middle school to pick up kids and then does the round.

We don't know for a fact what time the bus dropped him off.

We have all sorts of bus schedules here.

Some buses will go ahead and transport those who get out earlier than the high school kids.

But whatever time it was it was plenty of time for him to prepare and be ready the minute his father entered that door.

imo

[rusure?]

Well folks. I have to go tend to family so I'll see you tomorrow maybe.

[Hawk]

So, what was the shooter doing? Was he upstairs and found what they were looking for?

The shooter was reloading the little rifle.

[GentleBreeze]

I hadn't thought of that Gentle Breeze...kind of a confession/justification before he did it. Great thinking! Now this is making more sense.


Thank you.

I have always felt it odd that it was found at the crime scene that day.

imoo

[Crispy]

Trying to get caught up....how do we know his backpack was under the kitchen table? I know I've asked it before but I can't remember now.

[freddief]

ALL DRIVERS go the middle school here. It's a budget thing. The bus driver has a particular route that they do 3 times.

[GentleBreeze]

Well folks. I have to go tend to family so I'll see you tomorrow maybe.

Good day! See ya tomorrow.

imo

[freddief]

Gotta take my daughter to the park...this has been interesting.

[GentleBreeze]

Do you sit at your window for an hour and a half straight watching, never leaving your window?

Absolutely not but I do look out my windows quite often and out my three glass doors.

All ready today I have seen many people who are out walking, pass by.

imoo

[bkwits]

Public fact school gets out 2:15. Call Coronado school. He would be a latchkey kid for about 1 1/2 hours 2 days a week.

Well, on the day of the shootings, Tiffany was still not home at 5:15pm. Vince had stopped at home presumably for just a minute or two. So this little child was on his own for several hours, it seems. So, it seems the parents were very casual about leaving him alone for hours.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Gotta take my daughter to the park...this has been interesting.

See ya Freddie. Enjoy!

Thanks for the interesting posts.

imoo

[muska]

I have always wondered, if the papers the boy was spanked for forgetting were found among the things in his back pack. I wondered if the boy feared what would happen if he forgot AGAIN.

Wow, it would be awfully sad if he was that fearful!

[Hawk]

I have always wondered, if the papers the boy was spanked for forgetting were found among the things in his back pack. I wondered if the boy feared what would happen if he forgot AGAIN.

Maybe he brought the paper home that day to show his dad and it ended up blood stained.
Found later in a Spiderman trash can.

[Hawk]

I'd sure like to know where that paper/ papers is

They took it as evidence. Wonder whose blood is on it.

[Cherishlove]

Bottom line, the boy admitted he did it...CASE CLOSED. I think he's guilty and I wouldn't want him sleeping in my house...creepy...Eryn should be a liitle bit scared having the boy in her house. The defense attorney said we want the boy back in school, but I don't want my daughter in school if he's in her school, so where does he go to school...this is way to creepy for me. Do any of you really want this boy in your school or at your home?

Will he get off? probably because no one wants to try an 8 year old and because the cops in St. Johns didnt do such a gret job.

Does he need counselling...yeah a lot!
The confession was a coached I would say most people can see throught that, if you ask me they were not letting him out of there until he at least said he shot the gun but what he says doesn't even match to what happened. It's a bit creepy to me that you'd be afraid of a small child.

[GentleBreeze]

Wow, it would be awfully sad if he was that fearful!

I think all kids are fearful when they think they will be spanked or disciplined.

I think this problem may have been ongoing for awhile and they had given the boy chances to correct it and bring them home like he promised. I think when he didn't do that is when the spanking occurred.

[Hawk]

The confession was a coached I would say most people can see throught that, if you ask me they were not letting him out of there until he at least said he shot the gun but what he says doesn't even match to what happened. It's a bit creepy to me that you'd be afraid of a small child.

All he had to say was "That's all I have to say. I didn't shoot any guns." And stick with it.
He appears to me to want to confess. Like it was a burden he wanted to be free of. Even knowing it would cause him to go to 'juvie'.

[Cherishlove]

Not everyone Freddie, just some anonymous posters on a message board.

I say....allow them to grieve in peace. Mrs. Romans reportedly and through her family spokesperson has stated she's very upset at the boy being out and about. She believes he murdered her husband/ father of her children.
She also doesn't believe her husband was cheating on her so what does that tell you about her, she had no idea what was going on in the life of her husband in St. Johns.

[Hawk]

But is that THE paper/ papers the boy was spanked for forgetting a day earlier?

Only the boy and his step-mom know the answer.
If the spelling paper was the cause of a whippin' and it wound up with blood on it.................

[Hawk]

I think the kid would have been as happy as a clam if his first version was accepted.

Right. Stop there. Ask for grandpa. Anything. But he didn't. He wanted to tell someone.
And maybe he already had 'fessed up' the night before. Perhaps that's why grandpa insisted upon a psychologist.

[GentleBreeze]

The confession was a coached I would say most people can see throught that, if you ask me they were not letting him out of there until he at least said he shot the gun but what he says doesn't even match to what happened. It's a bit creepy to me that you'd be afraid of a small child.



Being a child doesn't mean they can't be scary imo. Joesph Duncan at the age of 8 was already raping little boys, Should society be afraid of those that commit violent acts, no matter the age? Yes, they should because they wont stay juveniles forever.

Many adult criminals don't just all of sudden becomes violent. Many times it starts in their past when they were young juveniles.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

She also doesn't believe her husband was cheating on her so what does that tell you about her, she had no idea what was going on in the life of her husband in St. Johns.

And that is her right to believe as she wishes.

I would think the compounded pain of thinking there was an affair behind her back, and losing her husband this way, would be too much to bear.

Often denial is a way to cope.

imoo

[Hawk]

And that is her right to believe as she wishes.

I would think the compounded pain of thinking there was an affair behind her back, and losing her husband this way, would be too much to bear.

Often denial is a way to cope.

imoo

I imagine she wishes she'd never heard of St. Johns and the Salt River Powerplant project.

[mrrogers]

I am so glad CR was able to cuddle with his mom all night! I bet they both feel alot better!:thumbsup:
THE GSR THING
avila was worried the boy had got gsr on him from being around her
they found 32 particles which is totally insignificant.i read an article where gsr can be used to rule out a subject 32 particles is nothing
he could have got that being in the house at the police station
theres no evidence that the boy is guilty
big john was upset last nite. the past few times ive talked with tanya or her sister
they never said they thought the boy did it the worst thing they want is the guilty party caught. her sis was upset yesterday about the investigation being stopped not christian getting out of jail. 3 things about the gsr is 1. none of us are experts 2. it can be used to rule people out 32 particles is nothing. admittedly a 22 is not going to put out as much as a bigger caliber but ive read iirc the reports ive seen
the gsr was called insignificant. why do you think carylon is trying to pass them off as not really a big deal ?
theres nothing else to convict the boy on or we would have heard about it by now. do you think the judge would let a guilty person out of jail for a week in the custody of his mother??? i doubt it
theyre not even a flight risk
ive talked to the atty and he says they dont have any evidence that was like 3 days ago. hes highly optomistic of getting this mess cleared up and that was before the interview on tv last nite.
as big a skeptic as i am kinda like the "show me state" i dont believe hes done anything. i know i dont remember everything but do remember alot more than i thought i did
everyone wants a scapegoat and since hes the one unlucky enough to get picked they rain hell down on him . the killer or killers are probably laffin there a off right now . they could have
another fact we have is a screwed up investigation sjpd was inside three or four times before the defense attys people got to take a look
and he wasnt real happy with the condition from sjpd and dps being all over the place .
so whoever thinks what is totally cool but there is no evidence that points to the boy. since i happen to live in the same state i would have heard it on the news im sure they blab along all day long with the same news all day long and "breaking news " on stuff like this
i believe its a natural tendency for people to blame whoever is in custody.
ive had a few deals wit h misquotes from the police and whenever i went to give them there 1 warning visit which was "if i hear or see anything about this again youll be gettin a lawsuit"
hence i never heard anything and they wont even talk to me most of the time anymore lol :w00t::w00t:

[bkwits]

Right. Stop there. Ask for grandpa. Anything. But he didn't. He wanted to tell someone.
And maybe he already had 'fessed up' the night before. Perhaps that's why grandpa insisted upon a psychologist.

No, I don't think CR wanted to confess to someone. If he did, why didn't his confession match the crime scene. Whether he shot the men or not, this was one confused child. He wanted to tell the LEOs something they would accept. He kept changing his story to try to jibe with what they were telling him that they knew (lies, in some cases).

I don't know if CR shot these men. I do doubt it, in great part because of his confession. Whatever the facts, we are fairly sure that this child saw his father in a pool of blood, and another man dead. That has to have been a great shock to him (even if he caused it). Children often think that they caused something bad to happen. That their thoughts have some supernatural power. He was scared, he was traumatized. He should never have been put in this position. IMO

[Hawk]

No, I don't think CR wanted to confess to someone. If he did, why didn't his confession match the crime scene. Whether he shot the men or not, this was one confused child. He wanted to tell the LEOs something they would accept. He kept changing his story to try to jibe with what they were telling him that they knew (lies, in some cases).

I don't know if CR shot these men. I do doubt it, in great part because of his confession. Whatever the facts, we are fairly sure that this child saw his father in a pool of blood, and another man dead. That has to have been a great shock to him (even if he caused it). Children often think that they caused something bad to happen. That their thoughts have some supernatural power. He was scared, he was traumatized. He should never have been put in this position. IMO

His 'confession' matches the crime scene perfectly. That's the problem.

But I agree that he should not have been arrested. He's just too young.

[bkwits]

His 'confession' matches the crime scene perfectly. That's the problem.

But I agree that he should not have been arrested. He's just too young.

The only parts of his confession that match the crime scene are the ones that Avila and Neckel coerced him into. Other statements don't match at all. He said his dad was shot in the chest...not true. He claimed he shot each man, twice. The were shot many times. He threw his gun in the closet after he finished shooting. Gun was not in closet. He shot at fleeing white car...prob not true.

How DID the crime scene match his confession besides the location of the shell casings? Where did he get the ammo? Do all the shell casings match his Chipmunk gun?

[mrrogers]

So we have about 30 posters here who don't think CR did this, and only 2 that think he did.

Some odds huh?

well what makes me wonder is i know now that theres at least one person on this blog that blogs the same stuff under another name
on websleuths and theyre doing the same thing there. repeat repeat repeat. there is no info there that we havent talked about here
all we can do now is wait and see. trutv blog i think is going slower i looked at it 2 days ago and they were muddled down discussing tos
:w00t::w00t::w00t:

[mrrogers]

Any kid accused of murdering two people will not be in any kid of mine's Fav Five!

hes innocent till proven guilty
how would you feel if you knew you hadnt done something and people kept blaming you of it. wouldnt it get a little bit bothersome:w00t::w00t::w00t:

[mrrogers]

The entire confession/interview proves the boy is a pathological liar. He lied throughout the entire thing.

I'd have some serious concerns with a child incapable of telling the truth. Apparently, this was an ongoing issue.

I would also say that chronic lying is a behavior problem.

imo

look up michael crowe who was intterogated for 17 hours
its the same deal a cooerced testimony. you keep saying look at the interrogation
it was thrown out because it was cooerced what part of that dont you understand
even jury will not consider that is thrown out why do you ????????:w00t::w00t::w00t:

[mrrogers]

I think all kids are fearful when they think they will be spanked or disciplined.

I think this problem may have been ongoing for awhile and they had given the boy chances to correct it and bring them home like he promised. I think when he didn't do that is when the spanking occurred.

the cooerced testimony was thrown out why consider it
you not even up to the standard of a jury in considering cooerced testimony
this is a kid with no record of violence nothing
if your not going to treat cooerced testimony thrown out the same as a juror would
your entire arugument is moot :w00t::w00t::w00t:

[Hawk]

The only parts of his confession that match the crime scene are the ones that Avila and Neckel coerced him into. Other statements don't match at all. He said his dad was shot in the chest...not true. He claimed he shot each man, twice. The were shot many times. He threw his gun in the closet after he finished shooting. Gun was not in closet. He shot at fleeing white car...prob not true.

How DID the crime scene match his confession besides the location of the shell casings? Where did he get the ammo? Do all the shell casings match his Chipmunk gun?

The arm shot to Mr. Romero could have easily been thought to have been a chest wound due to the reflex action of the arms going inward to the chest. Mr. Romero's arms were under him when the cops arrived. The 'shot to the chest' reference wasn't in the 'confession'.
He confessed to shooting them twice. (Does this mean two episodes or two shots?) Mr. Romero first, then Mr. Romans, then Mr. Romero again. The casings match his story exactly. That's why he was arrested.

[mrrogers]

There was no coaching in the begining of the interview. Yet, this boy chose to lie

how can you say that you werent there
they wouldnt even let leroy or anyone be with the boy they knew they were gonna run a scam on this boy from the get go
neckles testimony to ben brewer said they were told to lie to get a statement
how can you expect anymore when thats how there trained to lie to get what they want
i just give up trying to be logical with you ...to me i just dont get your logic :w00t::w00t::w00t:

[Hawk]

the cooerced testimony was thrown out why consider it
you not even up to the standard of a jury in considering cooerced testimony
this is a kid with no record of violence nothing
if your not going to treat cooerced testimony thrown out the same as a juror would
your entire arugument is moot :w00t::w00t::w00t:

It wasn't 'thrown out' (and hasn't been yet) because of what the boy said.

[bkwits]

The arm shot to Mr. Romero could have easily been thought to have been a chest wound due to the reflex action of the arms going inward to the chest. Mr. Romero's arms were under him when the cops arrived. The 'shot to the chest' reference wasn't in the 'confession'.
He confessed to shooting them twice. (Does this mean two episodes or two shots?) Mr. Romero first, then Mr. Romans, then Mr. Romero again. The casings match his story exactly. That's why he was arrested.

Well apparently you made it fit.

IMO

[mrrogers]

The kid has a record of being a liar.

imo

See post # 268 & 267
if he has ive never seen mention of it anywhere but by you
tiffany had a reputation of lying

[Hawk]

hes innocent till proven guilty
how would you feel if you knew you hadnt done something and people kept blaming you of it. wouldnt it get a little bit bothersome:w00t::w00t::w00t:

I wouldn't have said I did the shooting.

[mrrogers]

I'm not the subject of this discussion and I am not personally involved in this case.

This is a message board, not a courtroom therefore, I don't have to presume anything:patriot:

well the law is based on innocent until proven guilty
so in other word you feel you dont have to objective and only consider true testimony huh? why do you bother to blog if your going to change the rules to fit your personal feeling
whos being childish now to say your above the law thats real smart

[mrrogers]

stop using the boy's name! Go back and edit your post

im not using the boys name the boys name is not big john

[GentleBreeze]

the cooerced testimony was thrown out why consider it
you not even up to the standard of a jury in considering cooerced testimony
this is a kid with no record of violence nothing
if your not going to treat cooerced testimony thrown out the same as a juror would
your entire argument is moot

Neither did Scott Peterson or Don Morengello, the NASA rocket scientist, have a violent past but they both murdered their wives, so I fail to see your point on "he had no record of violence nothing" :confused:

I haven't seen Judge Roca toss the confession, perhaps you can show me where I can find that.

You must be confused.......this is not a case that will be tried by a jury. Judge Roca, solely, is presiding over this case.

Your entire argument is confusing.

imo

[mrrogers]

It wasn't 'thrown out' (and hasn't been yet) because of what the boy said.
I GUESS YOUR RIGHT BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER ADMITTED TO THE OFFICIAL RECORD BECAUSE THE JUDGE REFUSED LETTING IT BE ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE(TWICE) SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE IT ? OUT OF THE RECORD IS WHERE
whatever hawk what does it mean when they agree not to use it
that idiot whiting knew if he didnt agree not to use a judge would throw it out
i dont know where your head is at but various attornies including grant woods x attorney generl and sometime apache county special prosecutor said it would be unusable :w00t::w00t::w00t:
the judge even refused to admit the interview twice in the first hearing hawk what does that tell you

[muska]

I think all kids are fearful when they think they will be spanked or disciplined.

I think this problem may have been ongoing for awhile and they had given the boy chances to correct it and bring them home like he promised. I think when he didn't do that is when the spanking occurred.

That's a little too much speculating for me.

[GentleBreeze]

I GUESS YOUR RIGHT BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER ADMITTED TO THE OFFICIAL RECORD BECAUSE THE JUDGE REFUSED LETTING IT BE ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE(TWICE) SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE IT ? OUT OF THE RECORD IS WHERE
whatever hawk what does it mean when they agree not to use it
that idiot whiting knew if he didnt agree not to use a judge would throw it out
i dont know where your head is at but various attornies including grant woods x attorney generl and sometime apache county special prosecutor said it would be unusable :w00t::w00t::w00t:
the judge even refused to admit the interview twice in the first hearing hawk what does that tell you

It means Judge Roca wasn't going to base his decision on probable cause on the confession.

imoo

[mrrogers]

All he had to say was "That's all I have to say. I didn't shoot any guns." And stick with it.
He appears to me to want to confess. Like it was a burden he wanted to be free of. Even knowing it would cause him to go to 'juvie'.

well the judge never allowed it to be entered into the record twice when carlyon tried to get it in
he knew what neckles and avila had done
he even caught neckles lying to him in court about her qualifications and got her to admit she lied what does that tell ya
as far as avilla is concerned read http://www.joelbarrsstory.com/index.html:w00t::w00t::w00t:

[Hawk]

I GUESS YOUR RIGHT BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER ADMITTED TO THE OFFICIAL RECORD BECAUSE THE JUDGE REFUSED LETTING IT BE ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE(TWICE) SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE IT ? OUT OF THE RECORD IS WHERE
whatever hawk what does it mean when they agree not to use it
that idiot whiting knew if he didnt agree not to use a judge would throw it out
i dont know where your head is at but various attornies including grant woods x attorney generl and sometime apache county special prosecutor said it would be unusable :w00t::w00t::w00t:
the judge even refused to admit the interview twice in the first hearing hawk what does that tell you

It's already been used. Judge Roca has seen it. He can claim that he won't consider it in his decision in this case, but how is that possible?

Anyway, what the boy said in the interrogation is the subject of much of our debate. The inadmissibility factor isn't important to general discussion of what he said. It's admissible here.

[muska]

Maybe he brought the paper home that day to show his dad and it ended up blood stained.
Found later in a Spiderman trash can.

Don't you think that would be a little too convenient? The child's paper with one of the men's blood on it in the garbage pail that has been moved around in his room? Doesn't that sound just a little too obvious, a little too planted? I doubt if it will have anything to do with these shootings but if it does, I will find the explanation as to how it wound up in that pail very interesting.

[mrrogers]

Neither did Scott Peterson or Don Morengello, the NASA rocket scientist, have a violent past but they both murdered their wives, so I fail to see your point on "he had no record of violence nothing" :confused:

I haven't seen Judge Roca toss the confession, perhaps you can show me where I can find that.

You must be confused.......this is not a case that will be tried by a jury. Judge Roca, solely, is presiding over this case.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Your entire argument is confusing.

when they had the hearing for probable cause is what im talking about

roca refused to allow carlyon to admit the dvds of the coerced confession on 2 separate occasinons
well at least were on the same page about being confused because i dont get most of your posts arent you the one that posts as oceanblue eyes on websleuths when i was reading that i think it was you that had the same signature and lived in the same place
imo
obe roca didnt allow the dvds of the interveiw to be entered way back in the beginning im not going thru 3 months of stuff to show you read the transcripts of the hearin either a1 a2 b1 b2 its in there adjuctation(sic) hearing and no im not confused becausse that is where he refused to allow it to be entired at all

[mabel]

This is a message board, not a blog

In all due respect Linda I agree with you, but do you use another name or have you used another name on this board? I am asking because someone on the board said they knew who you were. Am I missing something? This isn't a hostile question. I just want to know. Yes or no would be the simplest answer. An explanation would be fine too but not necessary.

[Hawk]

Don't you think that would be a little too convenient? The child's paper with one of the men's blood on it in the garbage pail that has been moved around in his room? Doesn't that sound just a little too obvious, a little too planted? I doubt if it will have anything to do with these shootings but if it does, I will find the explanation as to how it wound up in that pail very interesting.

Don't know. The boy presenting the paper to his dad after the shooting brings forth some mental imagines that I better keep in my own distorted mind.
My hypocrisy has a limit.

Maybe the blood isn't even related to the crime.

[muska]

All he had to say was "That's all I have to say. I didn't shoot any guns." And stick with it.
He appears to me to want to confess. Like it was a burden he wanted to be free of. Even knowing it would cause him to go to 'juvie'.

He didn't seem that way to me. I would think that someone wanting to confess would seem upset, nervous, fidgety. Even Avila (or was it Neckel) said she saw none of the signs of lying that they are trained to look for.

[Hawk]

He didn't seem that way to me. I would think that someone wanting to confess would seem upset, nervous, fidgety. Even Avila (or was it Neckel) said she saw none of the signs of lying that they are trained to look for.

He certainly lied in some parts of the interrogation. Guess we can pick and chose which we prefer to believe.

Commander Avila and Detective Neckel appear to have gotten their training in lie detection from Jon Lovitz's 'Tommy Flanagan' on SNL.

[muska]

His 'confession' matches the crime scene perfectly. That's the problem.

But I agree that he should not have been arrested. He's just too young.

Not that pesky chipmunk. First he said he didn't remember seeing any guns. Then after being told the gun was there, he said he left it in the closet. He had already, supposedly, admitted he'd just had the gun in his little hands. Absolutely no reason to lie about where he left it.

[GentleBreeze]

obe roca didn't allow the dvds of the interview to be entered way back in the beginning im not going thru 3 months of stuff to show you read the transcripts of the hearin either a1 a2 b1 b2 its in there adjuctation(sic) hearing and no im not confused because that is where he refused to allow it to be entered at all

Great, that shows he did not base probable cause on the confession at all.

Smart move on the Judge's part.

imoo

[muska]

The only parts of his confession that match the crime scene are the ones that Avila and Neckel coerced him into. Other statements don't match at all. He said his dad was shot in the chest...not true. He claimed he shot each man, twice. The were shot many times. He threw his gun in the closet after he finished shooting. Gun was not in closet. He shot at fleeing white car...prob not true.

How DID the crime scene match his confession besides the location of the shell casings? Where did he get the ammo? Do all the shell casings match his Chipmunk gun?

Thank you, Bkwits

[wolfi_2]

The entire confession/interview proves the boy is a pathological liar. He lied throughout the entire thing.

I'd have some serious concerns with a child incapable of telling the truth. Apparently, this was an ongoing issue.

I would also say that chronic lying is a behavior problem.

imo


If children are growing up in a good household, there is no fear for saying the truth!

so if you stated that the boy is a pathological liar, you must also state, there is some kind of abuse involved.
Why children are lying?
Children lie from fear of punishment.
Children lie, in order to be recognized.
Children lie during excessive demand
all three statements above are a kind of abuse.
That at last is a motive, even his grandma stated, they where to hard at him!. So if excessive abuse (verbal, mental, physical) over a long time is involved, once it's enough for a child. Most of all children haven't access to firearms so nothing happened, but this boy has access during his irresponsible dad and stepmom who left all weapons unlocked. So in this case the shootings are a result of abuse.

[GentleBreeze]

I must agree. I didn't see any typical signs of lying either.

That's what I personally find the most frightening :ohmy: considering he obviously DID lie throughout the entire interview.

imo

Yeah, he was pretty smooth.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

If children are growing up in a good household, there is no fear for saying the truth!

so if you stated that the boy is a pathological liar, you must also state, there is some kind of abuse involved.
Why children are lying?
Children lie from fear of punishment.
Children lie, in order to be recognized.
Children lie during excessive demand
all three statements above are a kind of abuse.
That at last is a motive, even his grandma stated, they where to hard at him!. So if excessive abuse (verbal, mental, physical) over a long time is involved, once it's enough for a child. Most of all children haven't access to firearms so nothing happened, but this boy has access during his irresponsible dad and stepmom who left all weapons unlocked. So in this case the shootings are a result of abuse.

Manipulative children can also lie.

They can spin it trying to give them best advantage.

imo

[muska]

Don't know. The boy presenting the paper to his dad after the shooting brings forth some mental imagines that I better keep in my own distorted mind.
My hypocrisy has a limit.

Maybe the blood isn't even related to the crime.

Please tell me you're not serious.

[mabel]

Again...with all due respect...I am not the subject of this board.

Well you didn't answer my question in all due respect which has nothing to do with being a subject of this thread but has everything to do with being open with your fellow posters.

[muska]

I must agree. I didn't see any typical signs of lying either.

That's what I personally find the most frightening :ohmy: considering he obviously DID lie throughout the entire interview.

imo

throughout the entire interview.......you sure do think you know a lot.

[muska]

I actually shivered with the mental image....

Well then, I know for certain now that I should not take your posts too seriously.

[wolfi_2]

Are you now saying the boy is the shooter, the boy was abused so the men deserved it?
:confused:

No, I say-
-it's a motive
and
-So in this case the shootings are a result of abuse.
I still don't believe he did it

[GentleBreeze]

Most of all children haven't access to firearms so nothing happened, but this boy has access during his irresponsible dad and stepmom who left all weapons unlocked. So in this case the shootings are a result of abuse.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this part of your posts. In the USA there are about 25 million legal gun owners. Millions of the gun owners have children in their homes. As far as I know there is no law saying they must keep their weapons locked away yet they do not do what this boy did and his case is scarce as hens teeth.

This shows me that if any abuse occurred it was an abuse of trust.

imo

[Hawk]

Justice Puppy????

Did the Dawg have a litter?

[GentleBreeze]

So what is Roca's next move? Any guesses?

Welcome and great nic.

I think the next thing happening is the motion to dismiss next Thursday.

imoo

[wolfi_2]

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this part of your posts. In the USA there are about 25 million legal gun owners. Millions of the gun owners have children in their homes. As far as I know there is no law saying they must keep their weapons locked away yet they do not do what this boy did and his case is scarce as hens teeth.

This shows me that if any abuse occurred it was an abuse of trust.

imo

-that if any abuse occurred it was an abuse of trust, as a result of verbal mental and/or physical abuse, that’s right!

[mabel]

Again...with all due respect...I am not the subject of this board.
Your silence is deafening.

[GentleBreeze]

-that if any abuse occurred it was an abuse of trust, as a result of verbal mental and/or physical abuse, that’s right!

Not to me Wolfi.

This boy knew perfectly well, he wasn't ever to touch the guns without his father being present. He even admitted that he shot the air gun behind his father's back and he knew his father would have been upset with him about that. This was not what his father had taught him and he certainly never ever taught him to hurt any human beings.

The boy abused the trust that his father had placed in him.

JMO

[rusure?]

What has happened to this board?
I'm away for a while and it's turned into the WS board with hang the boy type banners.

What happened to discussing the facts of the case? What happened to trying to help the boy?

[GentleBreeze]

What has happened to this board?
I'm away for a while and it's turned into the WS board with hang the boy type banners.

What happened to discussing the facts of the case? What happened to trying to help the boy?

We are discussing the case.:confused:

[Hawk]

What has happened to this board?
I'm away for a while and it's turned into the WS board with hang the boy type banners.

What happened to discussing the facts of the case? What happened to trying to help the boy?

Thought this was an open forum on the Romero/Romans murders, not a dedicated site to help the boy.

[secrets]

Somehow, I'm starting to feel like I'm in SJ hanging with LE and the likes, and maybe even some from the DA's office are in the company?

[wolfi_2]

Not to me Wolfi.

This boy knew perfectly well, he wasn't ever to touch the guns without his father being present. He even admitted that he shot the air gun behind his father's back and he knew his father would have been upset with him about that. This was not what his father had taught him and he certainly never ever taught him to hurt any human beings.

The boy abused the trust that his father had placed in him.

JMO

If I know my boy is a liar, I just can't trust him (CR), so I would not leave any weapons around, because he can make some stupid things with the weapons when he is alone at home for a long time!

[muska]

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this part of your posts. In the USA there are about 25 million legal gun owners. Millions of the gun owners have children in their homes. As far as I know there is no law saying they must keep their weapons locked away yet they do not do what this boy did and his case is scarce as hens teeth.

This shows me that if any abuse occurred it was an abuse of trust.

imo

Just because there is no law does not mean that a thing shouldn't be done. Maybe locking weapons away when there are children around should be left to common sense.

[wolfi_2]

Show me a link of verbal or mental abuse...as the DAWG would say

there is none in this case, because nobody speak about, but there is physical abuse, and physical abuse is going often alongside with verbal and/or mental abuse.

[secrets]

I think there is about 100% agreement the boy needs psychiatric help. Not everyone agrees letting the boy out is helpful at this point.

And certainly, you are an expert in that field, so this is based on you professional experience, and after long sessions with the boy, you came to this scientific conclusion?

It is sad when people need to say things like this about children, to feel good about themselves.

[wolfi_2]

Most children go through a lying phase and never murder anyone.

I don't know how severe and how long the lying had been going on with this boy.


so when a kid is going in this phase wouldn't it be good to make my home a bit saver? he can also playing outside with a gun and accidental injure someone else, So again if I know my kid is lying I can't trust him, ergo lock the weapon away.

[GentleBreeze]

Just because there is no law does not mean that a thing shouldn't be done. Maybe locking weapons away when there are children around should be left to common sense.

But what I am saying, muska, millions of kids are in homes with guns and many don't lock them up, in case they should need them for immediate protection, yet those children do not kill their parents and certainly don't commit another homicide to boot.

This shows me this boy's case is an anomaly.


imoo

[wolfi_2]

There is no evidence of abuse of any kind

Tiffany spanked the boy for a low reason, then how often?, the grandma stated they where to hard on him! -for verbal and mental abuse you wouldn't find a direct sign.

[Hawk]

Hey Puppy!

I don't think that what YOU think matters.
It will be one mans decision, he wears the robe.

He should wear a mask to hide his shame.

[muska]

But what I am saying, muska, millions of kids are in homes with guns and many don't lock them up, in case they should need them for immediate protection, yet those children do not kill their parents and certainly don't commit another homicide to boot.

This shows me this boy's case is an anomaly.


imoo

Many children touch guns. Many shoot themselves or a friend or a relative. Usually these shootings occur accidentally, sometimes intentionally. If many kids actually shoot someone, I am sure that many, many more touch weapons when they are not suppose to and are lucky enough not to get hurt or to hurt anyone else. I think it is extremely irresponsible to leave weapons out when children are around. Perhaps your child won't touch one but that is probably what the parents of most injured children also thought.

And you don't have to tell me that this case involves a violation of trust. I know that's what you believe. If you are correct, think of what Mr. Romero could have avoided if there had been a law and he had obeyed it.

[PensiveOne]

link?????????

JusticeDawg, I am glad you are back. There seem to be multiple personalities on this site. Seems to have happened when someone suggested there were only a couple on the "guilty as charged" side of the house.

[GentleBreeze]

You are 1000% correct. He doesnt belong in Juvey or at home. He needs some therapeutic setting but one that allows for liberal visitation by family.


I agree.

imoo

[Hawk]

A puppy leaves less crap behind than a DAWG!

Yeah, but they both howl at the moon and make a lot of noise.

[Hawk]

Many children touch guns. Many shoot themselves or a friend or a relative. Usually these shootings occur accidentally, sometimes intentionally. If many kids actually shoot someone, I am sure that many, many more touch weapons when they are not suppose to and are lucky enough not to get hurt or to hurt anyone else. I think it is extremely irresponsible to leave weapons out when children are around. Perhaps your child won't touch one but that is probably what the parents of most injured children also thought.

And you don't have to tell me that this case involves a violation of trust. I know that's what you believe. If you are correct, think of what Mr. Romero could have avoided if there had been a law and he had obeyed it.

Amen to that! Lock guns up. Store ammo in a different location. Keep your personal weapon close to you and away from kids.

[Jacobtk]

I don't really care where he was.

I know he was in that house prior to the men returning home.

You ought to because it is important to your position that he killed two men. If the boy's bag was found in the home under the table, that does not mean he could not have thrown it there when he came into the house after he saw Tim. The fact that the bag was there opens up a number of possibilities, the most obvious being that the boy came home and remained home the entire time. That would mean he was there when Tiffany came home and then made a second trip to the store. One would think she would have noticed the boy. Another possibility is that he witnessed the acts and is too frightened to tell anyone, particularly not the police since they have proven themselves utterly untrustworthy and lacking in the most basic moral character.

By ignoring that rather important question of where the boy was, you are essence suggesting that you will ignore anything that does not point to the boy as the shooter. Granted, as an outside observer you do not have to allow for reasonable doubt. However, it does demonstrate a lack of objectivity.

[GentleBreeze]

Many children touch guns. Many shoot themselves or a friend or a relative. Usually these shootings occur accidentally, sometimes intentionally. If many kids actually shoot someone, I am sure that many, many more touch weapons when they are not suppose to and are lucky enough not to get hurt or to hurt anyone else. I think it is extremely irresponsible to leave weapons out when children are around. Perhaps your child won't touch one but that is probably what the parents of most injured children also thought.

And you don't have to tell me that this case involves a violation of trust. I know that's what you believe. If you are correct, think of what Mr. Romero could have avoided if there had been a law and he had obeyed it.

Imo we cannot compare those cases and based on the amount of guns owned in a home, it is not many. More children die from vehicle accidents, drownings, bicycle accidents and from fires than they do from an accidental discharge of a firearm. This is not about a safety issue that resulted in the boy being harmed accidentally or accidentally shooting another. This was a purposeful intent to commit murder, twice over and not one hair on his head was harmed.

I don't think there will ever be a law enacted where parents will have to protect themselves from being murdered by their own children. I think that concept is just too hard for any parent to even grasp.

Just think what would have happened if this boy did as he promised his dad he would do and had obeyed the rules to never touch the gun without him being there.

imo

[muska]

Amen to that! Lock guns up.Store ammo in a different location. Keep your personal weapon close to you and away from kids.

If I kept a personal weapon close to me, I am very sure I would shoot myself............maybe Plaxico Burris should have left his home too!!

I have to go for now..........one of my kids has company about to arrive. Back later.

[wolfi_2]

Amen to that! Lock guns up. Store ammo in a different location. Keep your personal weapon close to you and away from kids.


that´s the best comment on this! thanks Hawk.

[Hawk]

If I kept a personal weapon close to me, I am very sure I would shoot myself............maybe Plaxico Burris should have left his home too!!

I have to go for now..........one of my kids has company about to arrive. Back later.

Everyone who owns a gun isn't as reckless as Mr. Burris. Thankfully.

[muska]

Imo we cannot compare those cases and based on the amount of guns owned in a home, it is not many. More children die from vehicle accidents, drownings, bicycle accidents and from fires than they do from an accidental discharge of a firearm. This is not about a safety issue that resulted in the boy being harmed accidentally or accidentally shooting another. This was a purposeful intent to commit murder, twice over and not one hair on his head was harmed.

I don't think there will ever be a law enacted where parents will have to protect themselves from being murdered by their own children. I think that concept is just too hard for any parent to even grasp.

Just think what would have happened if this boy did as he promised his dad he would do and had obeyed the rules to never touch the gun without him being there.

imo

Just because more kids die in auto accidents etc., doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to protect them from guns. Even if it would save only a few children, why not do it?

[GentleBreeze]

You ought to because it is important to your position that he killed two men. If the boy's bag was found in the home under the table, that does not mean he could not have thrown it there when he came into the house after he saw Tim. The fact that the bag was there opens up a number of possibilities, the most obvious being that the boy came home and remained home the entire time. That would mean he was there when Tiffany came home and then made a second trip to the store. One would think she would have noticed the boy. Another possibility is that he witnessed the acts and is too frightened to tell anyone, particularly not the police since they have proven themselves utterly untrustworthy and lacking in the most basic moral character.

By ignoring that rather important question of where the boy was, you are essence suggesting that you will ignore anything that does not point to the boy as the shooter. Granted, as an outside observer you do not have to allow for reasonable doubt. However, it does demonstrate a lack of objectivity.

I never heard that Tiffany came home that afternoon until she was called and then came to the scene. When did she come home and then leave again?

I thought everyone has been saying the boy was left all alone the entire time, from the time he got off the bus, until he ran to the neighbors?

imoo

[Jacobtk]

I think he might just see if the boy is "restorable" in the approx 245 days and hope a deal is reached during that time.

That would be unethical and would likely be overturned and cause Roca to lose both his job and law license. He can legally only make his judgment based on the results of the experts' analysis. Based on the recent reports, apparently the state's expert reached the same conclusion as the defense's and found the boy incompetent due to his age. Placing him in treatment would not make him anymore capable of understanding the legal process or acting in his own defense, which is what the competency is for. Ergo, the boy would have to be found incompetent unless Roca legally justify ruling otherwise.

Or...... I think he may grant the prosecution's motion to dismiss one count for the same reason.

That would likewise be unethical and would cost Roca his job and law license.

[PensiveOne]

You ought to because it is important to your position that he killed two men. If the boy's bag was found in the home under the table, that does not mean he could not have thrown it there when he came into the house after he saw Tim. The fact that the bag was there opens up a number of possibilities, the most obvious being that the boy came home and remained home the entire time. That would mean he was there when Tiffany came home and then made a second trip to the store. One would think she would have noticed the boy. Another possibility is that he witnessed the acts and is too frightened to tell anyone, particularly not the police since they have proven themselves utterly untrustworthy and lacking in the most basic moral character.

By ignoring that rather important question of where the boy was, you are essence suggesting that you will ignore anything that does not point to the boy as the shooter. Granted, as an outside observer you do not have to allow for reasonable doubt. However, it does demonstrate a lack of objectivity.

Jacobtk. I agree with what you are saying, well done. I do have a question though...did Tiffany come home between shopping trips? I also wonder where she was from 4:45 (the second trip to the store) to 5:00 ( when she was talking to the EMT's).

[GentleBreeze]

Just because more kids die in auto accidents etc., doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to protect them from guns. Even if it would save only a few children, why not do it?

I am not disagreeing with you, Muska and I do think weapons should be locked away but I also know that twice in my life, I was very glad that I didn't have my weapon locked up somewhere. If I had, I would most likely have been seriously harmed or worse and that includes my child and brother being harmed as well. So to me it is debatable.

But there again this case isn't about saving children from being accidentally harmed or worse by a weapon. No child in this case was accidentally shot or harmed at all.

imoo

[freddief]

I never heard that Tiffany came home that afternoon until she was called and then came to the scene. When did she come home and then leave again?

I thought everyone has been saying the boy was left all alone the entire time, from the time he got off the bus, until he ran to the neighbors?

imoo

I think it is conjecture, no one has ever said she was home, her receipt and witnesses put her away from the scene. Unless someone has documented information to the contrary.

[Jacobtk]

I never heard that Tiffany came home that afternoon until she was called and then came to the scene. When did she come home and then leave again?

She claimed that she had to make two trips to the store. If I recall correctly, she initially only bought a few items, went home and then realized she did not actually buy the food for dinner and so when back to the store.

I thought everyone has been saying the boy was left all alone the entire time, from the time he got off the bus, until he ran to the neighbors?

The problem is that no one knows when the boy got off the bus. Neckels never included that information in her report and to my knowledge no other officers inquired about it.

[wolfi_2]

unfortunately I have to work this weekend, so good night all !:sleep:

[freddief]

She claimed that she had to make two trips to the store. If I recall correctly, she initially only bought a few items, went home and then realized she did not actually buy the food for dinner and so when back to the store.



The problem is that no one knows when the boy got off the bus. Neckels never included that information in her report and to my knowledge no other officers inquired about it.

Don't see anything written that she went home. They should ask the bus driver Mrs Hawes when CR got home but I'm sure it was before 3:15 because she would have to be at the middle school to pick up middle schoolers.

[GentleBreeze]

I think it is conjecture, no one has ever said she was home, her receipt and witnesses put her away from the scene. Unless someone has documented information to the contrary.

Thank you. I know I had never heard that.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

unfortunately I have to work this weekend, so good night all !:sleep:

Good night, wolfi! :seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

IIRC He said he played with a paint ball gun.

Yeah, that's right they were shot with a paint ball gun, 10 times.:rolleyes:

Doesn't matter what the neighbor thought the shots sounded like. I highly doubt they were expecting to hear real gunfire erupt across the street, since there hasn't even been a murder in that entire town for years.

The ME knows what type gun/bullet killed them evven though and a paint ball gun and a .22 rifle makes a popping sound. The gun used wasn't a boomer.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

Jacobtk. I agree with what you are saying, well done. I do have a question though...did Tiffany come home between shopping trips? I also wonder where she was from 4:45 (the second trip to the store) to 5:00 ( when she was talking to the EMT's).

Actually, according to the interview with Neckels, Tiffany told her that she took the milk and donuts to work, not home, and then went back to get spaghetti. However, the whole exchange comes across as odd:

DN: Um, yes, well, without looking at the receipt, the receipt matched up to, um, the first video. She, visited Wilbur’s, twice. And, she went first fer work and she got milk, and doughnuts, and, took em back ta work, and then she went, back ta Wilbur’s and, she picked up stuff fer spaghetti fer dinner. Um, and, I have the receipt fer the, spaghetti stuff and that time, it wasn’t still on the video. So, um…

----

DN: [...] In the meantime I had gone over ta Tiffany’s house ta ask her a question, and, I was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.

[Jacobtk]

Doesn't matter what the neighbor thought the shots sounded like. I highly doubt they were expecting to hear real gunfire erupt across the street, since there hasn't even been a murder in that entire town for years.

That is true, however, it does matter to the extent that it is possible (but not probable) that what the neighbors heard were paint ball gunshots and not shots from a Chimpmunk rifle. I consider it improbable because if the boy was shooting the paint ball gun it would have been left at the scene.

[Details]

I see no new info yet. Same old no ballistics, no forensics, no nothing to report.

I was thinking about the person who heard 3 shots. First off, their data on the timeline that we had early on in this thread, should be marked as approximate - it was when they remembered it - but this is not timestamped data. They have the time when he called 911, if he did, but a recollected time can be off by quite a bit.

But - why 3 shots. Very distinctively, with timing and everything. It's unlikely that's the father being shot - that happened inside the house, and (if the father was shot first and while Tim was on the phone) was not audible outside the house apparently - and that was 4 shots.

Tim though - one shot was maybe further outside, so if he'd heard just one, it'd be the driveway shot - but otherwise, it seems he should have heard 6 shots, or none - Tim was shot 5 times in the same location - right?

As with any witness, could be he mistook it. Or could be there were two guns and one was louder than the other - but it's just an interesting aspect here.

[PensiveOne]

Actually, according to the interview with Neckels, Tiffany told her that she took the milk and donuts to work, not home, and then went back to get spaghetti. However, the whole exchange comes across as odd:

DN: Um, yes, well, without looking at the receipt, the receipt matched up to, um, the first video. She, visited Wilbur’s, twice. And, she went first fer work and she got milk, and doughnuts, and, took em back ta work, and then she went, back ta Wilbur’s and, she picked up stuff fer spaghetti fer dinner. Um, and, I have the receipt fer the, spaghetti stuff and that time, it wasn’t still on the video. So, um…

----

DN: [...] In the meantime I had gone over ta Tiffany’s house ta ask her a question, and, I was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.

I have always felt that LE dropped the ball with Tiffany. They didn't take her clothes in evidence, like they did the boys. They didn't ask much about her whereabouts. They didn't even know about the second trip to the store until days later, and Neckles just stumbled onto that. It just seems like they really didn't do much real investigating at all. At least Neckles went back on her own to ask a few more questions.

[muska]

I am not disagreeing with you, Muska and I do think weapons should be locked away but I also know that twice in my life, I was very glad that I didn't have my weapon locked up somewhere. If I had, I would most likely have been seriously harmed or worse and that includes my child and brother being harmed as well. So to me it is debatable.

But there again this case isn't about saving children from being accidentally harmed or worse by a weapon. No child in this case was accidentally shot or harmed at all.

imoo

If the Romeros weapons had been locked up safely, the child could not have gotten to them for any reason. If your scenario turns out to be right, none of it would have happened had the weapons been locked up. Even the NRA says weapons should be locked up in a separate location from the weapon's ammunition in homes where children are or may be present.

[muska]

I see no new info yet. Same old no ballistics, no forensics, no nothing to report.

I was thinking about the person who heard 3 shots. First off, their data on the timeline that we had early on in this thread, should be marked as approximate - it was when they remembered it - but this is not timestamped data. They have the time when he called 911, if he did, but a recollected time can be off by quite a bit.

But - why 3 shots. Very distinctively, with timing and everything. It's unlikely that's the father being shot - that happened inside the house, and (if the father was shot first and while Tim was on the phone) was not audible outside the house apparently - and that was 4 shots.

Tim though - one shot was maybe further outside, so if he'd heard just one, it'd be the driveway shot - but otherwise, it seems he should have heard 6 shots, or none - Tim was shot 5 times in the same location - right?

As with any witness, could be he mistook it. Or could be there were two guns and one was louder than the other - but it's just an interesting aspect here.

Good point.....it is not as though the shooter was shooting from inside the house. All shots would have been from fairly close to the same spot.

[muska]

You ought to because it is important to your position that he killed two men. If the boy's bag was found in the home under the table, that does not mean he could not have thrown it there when he came into the house after he saw Tim. The fact that the bag was there opens up a number of possibilities, the most obvious being that the boy came home and remained home the entire time. That would mean he was there when Tiffany came home and then made a second trip to the store. One would think she would have noticed the boy. Another possibility is that he witnessed the acts and is too frightened to tell anyone, particularly not the police since they have proven themselves utterly untrustworthy and lacking in the most basic moral character.

By ignoring that rather important question of where the boy was, you are essence suggesting that you will ignore anything that does not point to the boy as the shooter. Granted, as an outside observer you do not have to allow for reasonable doubt. However, it does demonstrate a lack of objectivity.

Thanks! Some very good points!!

[GentleBreeze]

So where was he for the two hours after he got out of school and before the shootings occurred? Tiffany would have come home to drop off whatever she bought and then left back out. If he was, would she not have seen him? That is a huge gap in the time line that no one seems to want to explain. The boy is missing for two hours and then suddenly appears, kills two men in 11 minutes, immediately concocts a story about a white car and then tells the neighbors?



It does if you go back and look at the video or read the transcript. He states he saw blood around his father's head first and it is only after Avila grooms him that he states that he shot his father because he was suffering. It would take several minutes for the blood to pool and that is a very specific detail, along with Tim's head being wedged between the screen door. In short, the claim about shooting his father and Tim most likely is a lie prompted by Avila because what the boy initially states (sans his concept of time) actually matches the scene whereas his "confession" is not even close.

Tim's head was not wedged between the metal security door. His head was laying up against the outside of the security door. He was not between the security screen door and the main entry door to the home.

There is no evidence that Tiffany ever returned home. She went and bought the donuts and returned to work, irrc. Then after work she went to buy Vinnie his coveralls and buy spaghetti makings for dinner.

I don't think his time line remotely lines up.

imoo

[Details]

...But there again this case isn't about saving children from being accidentally harmed or worse by a weapon. No child in this case was accidentally shot or harmed at all.

imooIMO - no matter what the truth is here, the child was harmed by this weapon.

If he is innocent - he's become a suspect because of the weapons being left around. He's maybe even lost his father due to it, if we go with the idea of an intruder who just picks up a handy gun laying around when surprised by the victims.

If he's guilty - as I've said - no 8 year old child, no underage child should have unrestricted access to guns. They don't have a fully formed brain, cannot control their impulses as adults do, they should never be given the power of life and death because they will misuse it, a tantrum over not getting a pony and a child can say they wish you were dead - meaning it as much as any child (who doesn't really know what dead fully means) can. A child in a tantrum should never have access to deadly force - they could do something they'd regret for a lifetime.

[Jacobtk]

Tim's head was not wedged between the metal security door. His head was laying up against the outside of the security door. He was not between the security screen door and the main entry door to the home.

Semantics. From Guinn's report: The body, later identified as Timothy Romans, was lying face down, with the head in front of the screen door, on the door mat. A pool of blood was forming under his face. The blood appeared to be coming from his nose and mouth. I was unable to discern any obvious wounds to Mr. Romans at this time. The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head.

I read that as his head blocking the screen door, ergo it was between the door. Your description is saying the same thing in a different way.

There is no evidence that Tiffany ever returned home.

There is no evidence that she did not either. Did anyone bother to confirm exactly where she was after she left Wilbur's?
I don't think his time line remotely lines up.

The "discrepancies" you mention only occur when framing the boy as the shooter. At this point, the boy has no time line because it has never been verified when he got off the bus, unless I missed that information in some report.