1-29 Hearings

[PensiveOne]

common sense and logic in this case would be to go alongside with the most countries of the world. Because the most country's know, that a 8 or 9 and even a 10 or 11 year old kid isn't fit to stand trial! for that knowledge you haven't to be an expert! and in this case, the whole competency test and the whole charge was a waste of tax money and time!

Aw heck Wolfi_2 don't worry about the American Tax payer...the state will just ask for some of the bailout money to cover it! Sorry, I just couldn't resist:smile:

[rusure?]

I am on a message board and I can base it on whatever I like.

OK, fine. Then continue to have me argue with you because I thought this board was to discuss the case, which I must be assuming too much, should be based on the evidence.

[wolfi_2]

You're right. But that position takes away from us debating who killed these guys.
I agree that he should not have been charged. But if he did the deeds let's know the truth.
And I don't care what the 'other countries of the world would do' or care, what they think.
You excepted, of course.


I would also know what was happened, but I think in this case it would during the circumstances never be known!

[PensiveOne]

You're right. But that position takes away from us debating who killed these guys.
I agree that he should not have been charged. But if he did the deeds let's know the truth.
And I don't care what the 'other countries of the world would do' or care, what they think.
You excepted, of course.

Hawk, I usually agree with you. However, in this case I must disagree. I don't see much debate going on. The rules of debate have been pretty much thrown out the window. I think it is the lack of new evidence and wandering minds that is affecting everybody.

http://www.paulnoll.com/Books/Clear-English/debate-advice.html

[wolfi_2]

Hawk, I usually agree with you. However, in this case I must disagree. I don't see much debate going on. The rules of debate have been pretty much thrown out the window. I think it is the lack of new evidence and wandering minds that is affecting everybody.


I fully agree, there is still to less evidence for the public, everything here is mostly based on IMO!

[Jacobtk]

But maybe you can tell me how it would send someone to prison just by the neighbors remembering only three or four shots.

Because perhaps all they heard were three shots, despite the man outside being shot six times. Perhaps they heard something and were not sure, but wanted to help the police and threw out a number. Perhaps they did not hear the shots at all. I can understand why this sort of thing may seem pointless, but is not important to make sure that those who give statements are being honest and truthful?

To me it isn't even about how many shots they think they heard but when they heard them that will be of much more importance.

In other words, it is not important that the witnesses gives the correct information, only that they have information to give?

[Crispy]

If a person calls 911 and reports gun shots right around the exact same time a man is SHOT TO DEATH across the street any REASONABLE person would make the obvious conclusion. Regardless if caller claims to have heard 3-4 or all 10 shots, it's the fact that they were heard that's important.


Just because shots were heard and it's consistent with the boys gun being fired, it still doesn't mean the boy fired the weapon. jmo

[Hawk]

Hawk, I usually agree with you. However, in this case I must disagree. I don't see much debate going on. The rules of debate have been pretty much thrown out the window. I think it is the lack of new evidence and wandering minds that is affecting everybody.

I'm a hardas. with a soft heart. I want resolution that soothes the most people involved. An impossible ending. I know.
It won't happen. "You can't please all the people all the time", as Mr. Lincoln said. But Lady Justice is obligated to do her best. It hasn't been done in this case. I've been red, white, and blue all my life. Been called naive, ignorant, uneducated, child killer, neocon, racist, and a multitude of things of a more personal nature. Doesn't bother me. Never has.

But for the life of me I can't see how American voting citizens, even lawyers, can justify an 8 year old child being in jail.

[PensiveOne]

If a person calls 911 and reports gun shots right around the exact same time a man is SHOT TO DEATH across the street any REASONABLE person would make the obvious conclusion. Regardless if caller claims to have heard 3-4 or all 10 shots, it's the fact that they were heard that's important.

Not to get in the middle of shooting party here, but can you show me a link where the people that heard the shots called 911? Because I have not seen that anywhere.

[IAMME]

First of all, circumstantial evidence is evidence and given the same weight as other evidence in a court of law.

Second, I am not in a court of law. I am not sitting on a jury.


Third, I will look at the evidence, circumstantial or other evidence (deemed admissible or not) and consider it and interpret it any was I see fit. I will base my opinions on all of it. Not the age of a defendant.

His age is irrelevant to me in my search for the truth.

Forth, I am searching for the truth. Period.

By deemed admissable, are you referring to the "confession"? Bc if that is what you are (in part) basing your opinions on, your opinion is in direct disagrement of EVERY expert who has commented on the validity of this "confession". Are you considering that FACT when forming your opinion?.....after all they cannot ALL be wrong. BC admissable or not it is coerced according to all of the experts who I am sure know far more about such things than either you or I.


IMO

[Cherishlove]

To be honest, I would never release the boy back to Tiffany, a woman who at this point has never once visited or spoke to the boy since his arrest. The woman is suspect, just as much as the police and prosecutor involved in this case. It is best for the boy to remain with his mother and out of jail.:thumbsup:

[Jacobtk]

If a person calls 911 and reports gun shots right around the exact same time a man is SHOT TO DEATH across the street any REASONABLE person would make the obvious conclusion. Regardless if caller claims to have heard 3-4 or all 10 shots, it's the fact that they were heard that's important.

That is different from stating that it does not matter at all what the person actually heard or suggesting that anyone can guess what the timing of the shots were based on a written account with no reference as to what the person's perception of a pause is. There is am audible pause between the ticks on a clock. The shots could have been fired that quickly (i.e. every second) or more slowly. We do not know and without that information how can anyone accurately state the type of gun that was used?

[PensiveOne]

I'm a hardas. with a soft heart. I want resolution that soothes the most people involved. An impossible ending. I know.
It won't happen. "You can't please all the people all the time", as Mr. Lincoln said. But Lady Justice is obligated to do her best. It hasn't been done in this case. I've been red, white, and blue all my life. Been called naive, ignorant, uneducated, child killer, neocon, racist, and a multitude of things of a more personal nature. Doesn't bother me. Never has.

But for the life of me I can't see how American voting citizens, even lawyers, can justify an 8 year old child being in jail.

Nor can I Hawk. Nothing in my moral structure can justify hurting a child like that. I don't care what he has done. No jail time for a child. Therapy,yes.:patriot:

[Crispy]

Not in itself.

But when you add in everything else and it starts piling up.... the pile keeps growing larger and larger...there is only one logical conclusion left.

imo


That's where my rub is I guess cause my pile isn't getting much bigger.

[Jacobtk]

I must have missed something? Who said the boy should be with Tiffany?

It was stated in the comment on the site you linked to.

[mrrogers]

Not in itself.

But when you add in everything else and it starts piling up.... the pile keeps growing larger and larger...there is only one logical conclusion left.

imo

if hed shot the gun hed have thousands of particles of gsr on him and not the 60 found on the boy. even avila said she was afraid hed got those on him from her so
the intterogation was cooerced as anyone can see and not allowed into evidence so what else is there

i suspect tiffany more than anyone else at this point there was alot of domestic violence calls at there house that shows they never should have got married to begin with . i suspect that she had someone do it myself :w00t:

[PensiveOne]

It was stated in the comment on the site you linked to.

I am the one that linked to the site. I agree with you by the way.

[bkwits]

Tell that to an innocent person sitting on death row because folks went on circumstancial evidence. Tell that to one of your loved ones if heaven forbid they find themselves on death row due to circumstancial evidence.


I guess you would call the evidence against David Dowaliby (convicted of murdering his adopted stepdaugter in 1990) "eye witness." The sole piece of evidence against him was a witness who said she saw someone sitting in a car with a nose structure like Dowaliby's near where little Jaclyn was later found buried. The witness was 75 ft away on a dark parking lot, and couldn't even say if it was a white or black man. DA had charged Mrs. Dowalibly also but the judge threw out the case because there was zero evidence against her. Dowaliby's conviction was overturned with the help of Protess and his group.

[IAMME]

if hed shot the gun hed have thousands of particles of gsr on him and not the 60 found on the boy. even avila said she was afraid hed got those on him from her so
the intterogation was cooerced as anyone can see and not allowed into evidence so what else is there

i suspect tiffany more than anyone else at this point there was alot of domestic violence calls at there house that shows they never should have got married to begin with . i suspect that she had someone do it myself :w00t:

Not disputing what you said, but do you have a link to Avila saying that?

And do you know who was calling in the DV calls? Was it VR, Tiffany, Neighbors?

[Hawk]

The GSR is meaningless. Even Mr. Carlyon admitted it.
It's a non-issue.

[JusticeDawg©]

I must have missed something? Who said the boy should be with Tiffany?

I think HotNostril did.

[bkwits]

I think HotNostril did.


You are so bad. hammer

[JusticeDawg©]

You are so bad. hammer

Darwin says I'm Bad To The Bone. :wink:

[Jacobtk]

The GSR is meaningless. Even Mr. Carlyon admitted it.
It's a non-issue.

I do not recall Carlyon stating that, however, if he did, how interesting that he felt compelled to release information about the residue being found on the boy.

[GentleBreeze]

Because perhaps all they heard were three shots, despite the man outside being shot six times. Perhaps they heard something and were not sure, but wanted to help the police and threw out a number. Perhaps they did not hear the shots at all. I can understand why this sort of thing may seem pointless, but is not important to make sure that those who give statements are being honest and truthful?



In other words, it is not important that the witnesses gives the correct information, only that they have information to give?

It is important that witnesses testify truthfully and I have no reason to believe that these neighbors won't. A jury or in this case, Judge, would weigh their testimony and give what weight they think should be given.

Are you suggesting that they should lie? The information they are giving is what they think they heard, when and how many. I know of no jury/Judge that would toss this case simply because the witness testified truthfully. I know of no jury that expects all witnesses to be some super human and expect what the witness heard to exactly match the crime scene.

Five people can hear or see the same event and have 5 different interpretations. I believe that most juries/Judges are filled with commonsense. They will have the autopsy, time lines and it will bolster that, yes, indeed they did hear gunshots and they heard them in a very short time span from when Tim hung up the phone with his wife. I do believe that any jury/Judge could put all of that together and come to a logical conclusion.

I do believe that any jury, if this was a jury trial, would reasonably believe that the witness or witnesses testified truthfully to the best of their ability.

A piece of circumstantial evidence is supported by another piece of circumstantial evidence and another, etc. Nothing stands alone.

imoo

[bkwits]

Darwin says I'm Bad To The Bone. :wink:

I'll stipulate to that (as our sons would say).

Any info on ballistics?

[IAMME]

My opinions are just that. When considering ANY piece of evidence, I will assign it the merit I feel it deserves.


In your opinion then, what do you feel is the states MOST important piece of evidence? And the least?

[Hawk]

I do not recall Carlyon stating that, however, if he did, how interesting that he felt compelled to release information about the residue being found on the boy.

It's not so much that, but the fact that GSR is so easily transferred.

[ChildsVOICE]

Hi All!

Just thought I'd check in and see what was buzzing.

Every time I try to keep up and log on there's another 10 pages! LOL That's great! I'm still glowing from CR getting to come home for a week.

Eryn posted a comment on his site. Hope you got a chance to check it out.

[Hawk]

Darwin says I'm Bad To The Bone. :wink:

Well let's all transfer our faith to Darwin!

[mrrogers]

Maybe he didn't want to shoot Tiffany? He obviosuly didn't blame her, he blamed his dad.

no proof he shot the gun gsr is insignificant expert said
and avila was afraid hed got that from being in a room with her
there would have been thousands of particles on him if hes shot a gun or been around when one was shot:w00t:

[Jacobtk]

The comment linked says no such thing.:confused:

Who said he should live with Tiffany?

It states: Nope release him to an unstable environment with what you all think is a great responsible loving natural mom. He had a great stable loving family. Maybe with some normal relationship problems now and then but normal & loving. You back seat drivers have convinced yourself that his "Real Mom" is his mom. Tiffanie was his mom.

[GentleBreeze]

Not disputing what you said, but do you have a link to Avila saying that?

And do you know who was calling in the DV calls? Was it VR, Tiffany, Neighbors?

All I have ever heard is the police said they were called to the home but they couldn't remember at the time, what for.

Tiffany in her statement said the police had been called when Vinnie was worried that Eryn would kidnap the boy and she said there would be a report on that, iirc.

I have heard nothing else about any domestic calls and certainly nothing about domestic violence and it could have been custody issues between Eryn and Vinnie.

imoo

[mrrogers]

I know and if she is innocent in all this I do feel bad for her because not only did her husband die but she found out he was cheating on her too and everyone knows that would be awful. But I really at this point don't think they should want harm to a small child either way get him help. I right now belive the boy is innocent, if a 8 year old killed my husband I would want him to get help and knowing his parents left guns out I would want to have the parents charged not the little child. That is just how I feel anyway.

leroy romero allegedly met up with big john IN A STORE IN SHOWLOW AZ
this like 90 miles from saint johns and over a hundred from san carlos
what the probablity of this happeining. 1 in a billion id thinkl
anyway leroy told big john not to beleive those stories about tim having a girl friend because he was always with me and vincent
the facts and other peoples testimony is just the exact opposite:w00t:

[Hawk]

no proof he shot the gun gsr is insignificant expert said
and avila was afraid hed got that from being in a room with her
there would have been thousands of particles on him if hes shot a gun or been around when one was shot:w00t:

Not true.
Discharge of GSR is in direct proportion to the caliber of round fired. A .22 is the lowest denominator on the scale. Your 'expert' was speaking in general terms, not to a .22 in particular.

[JusticeDawg©]

I wonder why Good Gawd hasn't posted in a while.

imoo

Who is that?

[Hawk]

leroy romero allegedly met up with big john IN A STORE IN SHOWLOW AZ
this like 90 miles from saint johns and over a hundred from san carlos
what the probablity of this happeining. 1 in a billion id thinkl
anyway leroy told big john not to beleive those stories about tim having a girl friend because he was always with me and vincent
the facts and other peoples testimony is just the exact opposite:w00t:

Two drinkers 'meeting up' in a county of 70,000 people and 20 bars is not a 'billion to one' odds. Regardless of mileage. A 'bird dog' is a 'bird dog'. Distance doesn't diminish scent.

[Jacobtk]

Are you suggesting that they should lie?

No, I am suggesting that in some instances witnesses can and do get information incorrect and that they testimony should not automatically be taken as truthful and infallible. I do not doubt that the neighbors only heard a few shots. However, to presume that just hearing a few shots means the boy committed the shootings with his gun is quite the leap. To suggest it was his weapon based on someone stating there was a delay without any reference to how long the delay was is also quite the leap.

[Jacobtk]

You may want to keep reading futher

I stand corrected.

[JusticeDawg©]

Well let's all transfer our faith to Darwin!

She's great, look her up. She is around here somewhere.

[IAMME]

The timeline is most important


I believe the boy's gun is the murder weapon
I believe the cell phone records will corroborate Tonya's statement about hearing the boy or Tim saying the boy blah blah
I believe the ear witness
I believe his prints will be on the casings

Least important

The GSR...it doesn't exclude him as the suspect
Fingerprints on the bullet box ...it just doesn't exclude him either


How can the cell phone records prove anything other than that there was a call made? It will not prove what was said. And I keep asking this and noone knows or everyone keeps missing my question...Can the phone records show if the call went to voicemail?

[Hawk]

She's great, look her up. She is around here somewhere.

As the kids say, "Whatever"!

[GentleBreeze]

No, I am suggesting that in some instances witnesses can and do get information incorrect and that they testimony should not automatically be taken as truthful and infallible. I do not doubt that the neighbors only heard a few shots. However, to presume that just hearing a few shots means the boy committed the shootings with his gun is quite the leap. To suggest it was his weapon based on someone stating there was a delay without any reference to how long the delay was is also quite the leap.

I am sure when they gave their statements to LE they conveyed how much of a delay there was between shots. That is for the trial, if there is one, and there again it will be weighed along with all the other evidence entered.

Never made that leap............not once. Never said the ear witnesses who heard shots will even be the star witnesses in this case.

I have always thought the time line is the best evidence in this case.

I don't see Judge Roca leaping toward guilt based on the neighbor's testimony and never said he would.

imoo

[JusticeDawg©]

As the kids say, "Whatever"!

Where are the kids?

[mrrogers]

I think it is pretty telling that the state's own expert essentially reached the same conclusion as the defense's expert. That probably played a role in the boy being released today, among other things. It also in some ways explains the suddenly silence on Carlyon's part.

carlyon is a slimeball he deserves this and more
the handwritings on the wall the boy has been judged incompent its a wonder he hasnt gone bananas being locked up . i do think tho that the people at juvenile detention have talked to him some times to make sure hes ok so that helps
all roca has to do is never rule on carylons motion and declare him incompetent then its game over
i do have some concerns about christians safety, if he stays in st johns but he will
probably go home with his mom i doubt she wants to be in st johns any longer than necessary. i hope this doesnt make things hard on her aunt who lives there :w00t:

[Hawk]

How can the cell phone records prove anything other than that there was a call made? It will not prove what was said. And I keep asking this and noone knows or everyone keeps missing my question...Can the phone records show if the call went to voicemail?

Yes, they can.
Each mobile phone carrier maintains a computerized log of voicemail because it takes up server space. The message isn't recorded, but the time is.

[Crispy]

mr rogers you may want to edit your post. We aren't supposed to put the juveniles name out there.

[GentleBreeze]

carlyon is a slimeball he deserves this and more
the handwritings on the wall the boy has been judged incompent its a wonder he hasnt gone bananas being locked up . i do think tho that the people at juvenile detention have talked to him some times to make sure hes ok so that helps
all roca has to do is never rule on carylons motion and declare him incompetent then its game over
i do have some concerns about xxxxxxxxx safety, if he stays in st johns but he will
probably go home with his mom i doubt she wants to be in st johns any longer than necessary. i hope this doesnt make things hard on her aunt who lives there :w00t:

Coldwater does not want us to but the boy's name up on the board.

I am removing his name from your post and you need to go back and delete it in your original.

[JusticeDawg©]

Yes, they can.
Each mobile phone carrier maintains a computerized log of voicemail because it takes up server space. The message isn't recorded, but the time is.

If a voicemail is saved or unheard, it is still there.

[Hawk]

Where are the kids?

On cell phones, Ipod, WII, x-Box, Cartoon network, Myspace, anywhere they are insured not to learn a damn thing.

[PensiveOne]

carlyon is a slimeball he deserves this and more
the handwritings on the wall the boy has been judged incompent its a wonder he hasnt gone bananas being locked up . i do think tho that the people at juvenile detention have talked to him some times to make sure hes ok so that helps
all roca has to do is never rule on carylons motion and declare him incompetent then its game over
i do have some concerns about XXXXX's safety, if he stays in st johns but he will
probably go home with his mom i doubt she wants to be in st johns any longer than necessary. i hope this doesnt make things hard on her aunt who lives there :w00t:

go back and edit...take the boy's name out.

[Jacobtk]

*edited above post to remove name

If the kid is truly innocent he should be exonerated not deemed incompetent.

That does not happen in most cases, especially juvenile cases. Since the standard for evidence is so low, short of having something pointing conclusively to someone else the best a person will ever get is a dismissal based on weak evidence or being found incompetent.

[JusticeDawg©]

*edited above post to remove name

If the kid is truly innocent he should be exonerated not deemed incompetent.

IMO

His attorney said he is going for exoneration. Did you miss that?

[Hawk]

If a voicemail is saved or unheard, it is still there.

Of course. It's saved on your carrier's server, not in your phone. In order for your phone to have that capability it must have adequate memory. Cell phones don't. That's one reason why the cell phone companies have you by the short hairs.

[JusticeDawg©]

On cell phones, Ipod, WII, x-Box, Cartoon network, Myspace, anywhere they are insured not to learn a damn thing.

LOL :thumbsup:

[GentleBreeze]

His attorney said he is going for exoneration. Did you miss that?

That is what he wishes........... that he will be exonerated.

He never said he would be exonerated.

He made it clear his client is still charged with double homicide.

[GentleBreeze]

Good Night Folks!

Good night, Linda!:seeya:

[JusticeDawg©]

That is what he wishes........... that he will be exonerated.

He never said he would be exonerated.

He made it clear his client is still charged with double homicide.

He is also under a gag. :smile:

[Crispy]

If a voicemail is saved or unheard, it is still there.

Yep, my phone converts all voice mail messages into text messages so I don't have to call my voice mail. (You should hear some of the translations LOL)

[PensiveOne]

Good Night Folks!

goodnight, Linda777NJ:)

[JusticeDawg©]

Of course. It's saved on your carrier's server, not in your phone. In order for your phone to have that capability it must have adequate memory. Cell phones don't. That's one reason why the cell phone companies have you by the short hairs.

I know, my cell has 10 saved and 3 unheard voicemails at the moment.

[Hawk]

Yep, my phone converts all voice mail messages into text messages so I don't have to call my voice mail. (You should hear some of the translations LOL)

Yes, but those messages are stored on a server, not in your cell phone.

[Hawk]

I know, my cell has 10 saved and 3 unheard voicemails at the moment.

Better delete the three. They're from St. Johns PD!

[GentleBreeze]

He is also under a gag. :smile:

I didn't see a gag in his mouth anywhere when he was speaking to the media.

imoo

[JusticeDawg©]

Yes, but those messages are stored on a server, not in your cell phone.

I know. I am saying they are there. If something happens to me, and police find my phone, they can listen to all of it. :scared:

[PensiveOne]

Yes, but those messages are stored on a server, not in your cell phone.

That is correct. I would think if they really wanted to get them they could. (the phone company). I would think that would be an envasion of privacy though.

[Crispy]

Yes, but those messages are stored on a server, not in your cell phone.

Right (stupid too short message uggg)

[PensiveOne]

I know. I am saying they are there. If something happens to me, and police find my phone, they can listen to all of it. :scared:

Unless, you have a password.

[Jacobtk]

I didn't see a gag in his mouth anywhere when he was speaking to the media.

He is prevented from speaking about the case itself, not about his opinion of his client's innocence or his client's well-being.

[JusticeDawg©]

I didn't see a gag in his mouth anywhere when he was speaking to the media.

imoo

If he would have said what he really knows, he'd be in contempt.

[Hawk]

I didn't see a gag in his mouth anywhere when he was speaking to the media.

imoo

I know everyone's tired of hearing how small (population) this county is.
But I have little doubt that all lawyers involved in this case know one another very well. They may even hang out together in one of the 20 bars in the county. Or socialize in other locations. 'Birds of a feather' and that sort of thing.

[JusticeDawg©]

Unless, you have a password.

They get a supeona for that.

[PensiveOne]

I know everyone's tired of hearing how small (population) this county is.
But I have little doubt that all lawyers involved in this case know one another very well. They may even hang out together in one of the 20 bars in the county. Or socialize in other locations. 'Birds of a feather' and that sort of thing.

If you look at the court calendar, they are together several days a week!

[GentleBreeze]

He is prevented from speaking about the case itself, not about his opinion of his client's innocence or his client's well-being.

Why are the defense attorneys speaking anyway?

We sure don't ever see the DA.

They really seem to respect JRs gag order.

imo

[mrrogers]

I do not recall Carlyon stating that, however, if he did, how interesting that he felt compelled to release information about the residue being found on the boy.

gsr can be used to rule people out as in this case c only had 60 particles of gsr on him. if hed shot a gun or been around one that was being shot recently hed have thousands of particles on him and this is not the case
slimeball carlyon just said that because he knows the same thing and is mad about the very distinct possiblity of losing this case. heck even the states own phychologist has said c is incompetent to stand trial all roca has to do is not rule on carylons motion and declare c incompetent then the whole game is over
even avila was afraid this gsr they found came from her during the intterogation :w00t:

[GentleBreeze]

If you look at the court calendar, they are together several days a week!

I think they all seem to get along very well.

imoo

[Hawk]

If you look at the court calendar, they are together several days a week!

Yes. They are on a first name basis. For one of them to do something 'out of line' would ban them from the fellowship (a world in which we all strive for) they now enjoy.
Not that they aren't competitive. Their vocation demands that. I think each of them is doing the best they can under the circumstances.

We can't know their hearts.

[PensiveOne]

They get a supeona for that.

They can if they hurry. But usually passwords are encrypted. So unless you know it, you won't get it even with a subpoena. They could reset it, though and give you the temporary one. The phone company doesn't keep the voice mail forever, especially if the phone bill isn't paid. I used to work for the phone company. You wouldn't believe who listens to voice mail, and even taps into calls. It's not legal and people get fired if caught. I always put a password on my voicemail. I know they asked Tonya for TR's phone number, maybe they were going to try to listen to his voice mails.

[GentleBreeze]

gsr can be used to rule people out as in this case c only had 60 particles of gsr on him. if hed shot a gun or been around one that was being shot recently hed have thousands of particles on him and this is not the case
slimeball carlyon just said that because he knows the same thing and is mad about the very distinct possibility of losing this case. heck even the states own phychologist has said c is incompetent to stand trial all roca has to do is not rule on carylons motion and declare c incompetent then the whole game is over
even avila was afraid this gsr they found came from her during the interrogation :w00t:

I do not believe there would be thousands of GSR particles on him.

Do you have a link where another, who did a crime that involved a firearm, had thousands of GSR particles found on them? I sure would like to see it because in all the years I have followed crime cases, I have never heard about anyone who had thousands of particles found on them. Not even the ones who were proved to have been the murderer who shot multiple times.

imoo

[Hawk]

I do not believe there would be thousands of GSR particles on him.

Do you have a link where another, who did a crime that involved a firearm, had thousands of GSR particles found on them? I sure would like to see it because in all the years I have followed crime cases, I have never heard about anyone who had thousands of particles found on them. Not even the ones who were proved to have been the murderer who shot multiple times.

imoo

A .22 leaves very little.

[GentleBreeze]

A .22 leaves very little.

That is why I am constantly shaking my head.

imoo

[bkwits]

I wonder why Good Gawd hasn't posted in a while.

imoo

I heard from her that she was going on vacation. Costa Rica, I think.

[mrrogers]

They have to be reeling from all of this.

Yes, like he said this isn't stealing some candy bar from a store.

Even Wood said the boy is still charged with double homicide. And there is absolutely no evidence proving that Big John is wrong in how he and the Romans believes.

imoo

theres no evidence to prove c was involved in any way

[Hawk]

That is why I am constantly shaking my head.

imoo

My thought is that the court already knows what to do. It's the 'How' that has him vexed.

[bkwits]

someone let me know now i am letting you all know over on az family news site they are taking a poll whether to drop the charges on the little boy or not. be careful because not only do we want them dropped we want him exonerated.right now it is 61%-35 votes to 36%- 21 votes to drop the charges. if you drcide to vote you'l need to sign up, but that is no big deal. thanks!


It is hard to decide how to vote in that poll, because I do not want the charges dropped without prejudice.

[mrrogers]

32 particles. Not 60.

32 is even better ive heard 32 36 6o

[Hawk]

32 is even better ive heard 32 36 6o

It's meaningless. It will never be brought up in court.

[Jacobtk]

Why are the defense attorneys speaking anyway?

Probably because they are people claiming their client is a cold-blooded murderer and many others wanting the boy locked away for the rest of his life. Not everyone thinks that someone charged with crimes could be innocent, so at some point someone will have to say it.

We sure don't ever see the DA.

No, he releases documents, videos and reports with the boy's picture, address and name unedited, particularly if he finds them incriminating (only to have experts in those fields tear the evidence apart). In fact, he fought to be able to release that information despite that it is never released in juvenile cases. No, he does not respect the gag order. He simply found a legal way to get around it.

[PensiveOne]

My thought is that the court already knows what to do. It's the 'How' that has him vexed.

What do you "think" the court wants to do? He just got the rest of the evidence, too. He has to write his decision up and state case law, etc. etc...That has to take some time.

[Hawk]

What do you "think" the court wants to do? He just got the evidence, too. He has to write his decision up and state case law, etc. etc...That has to take some time.

No it doesn't. Time for what? It's been three months. He ain't that busy. It's been on his mind since the arrest! Other cases, sure. Routine business. He said so himself.
He knows the boy isn't competent and he has to rule accordingly. He's just trying to figure out a way that the victims get some semblance of satisfaction.
There's never been a case like this before. Hopefully there won't be another.

[mrrogers]

Because, the DA has said he would use the coerced confession. The judge cannot dismiss until a motion to dismiss is done. There are legal things that have to be worked out. As you say, they have gsr on the boys clothes (even though it has been discussed here and you refuse to accept the fact that he did not have enough on his clothes to prove anything), and I believe you have commented on the circumstancial evidence against him. There have been a few on this board who are so conviced of his guilt, and gloat over the circumstancial eveidence against this boy. The Judge is not god. He has to follow legal proceedures as you have reminded us before.

:w00t:
carylon cant use the tape because the judge did not allow a jury trial

[Jacobtk]

I do not believe there would be thousands of GSR particles on him. Do you have a link where another, who did a crime that involved a firearm, had thousands of GSR particles found on them?

Here is a site (http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceGSR.htm)describing how residue works. From the site:

Gunshot residues emitted from the muzzle will travel out to distances of approximately 3 and 5 feet in most firearms but in some cases can travel even greater distances. At the 3-5 foot range the gunshot residues may only consist of a few trace particles and make determining the firing distance difficult if not impossible.

As the firearm gets closer to its target the residue concentrations increase and the actual size or diameter to the pattern gets smaller. At around 18-24 inches most firearms will start to deposit considerable concentrations of gunshot residues that may or may not be visible to the eye.

At distances of less than around 12 inches heavy concentrations of visible gunshot residues will normally be deposited.

Based on this information, it seems incredibly unlikely that if the boy shot both men he would only have a handful of particles on his clothing, especially with the shot to Vincent's shoulder and the shots to Tim's head. The barrel would have been close to the boy's legs, barely a foot away. His legs would be covered in residue and the burns would be visible on both men.

[PensiveOne]

No it doesn't. Time for what? It's been three months. He ain't that busy. It's been on his mind since the arrest! Other cases, sure. Routine business. He said so himself.
He knows the boy isn't competent and he has to rule accordingly. He's just trying to figure out a way that the victims get some semblance of satisfaction.
There's never been a case like this before. Hopefully there won't be another.

Well, maybe you are right. I cannot quite figure this judge out. I don't have a clue how or if he will rule on the motions, or what his final decision will be. He still has the competency hearings. Do you really think his mind is made up already?

[Hawk]

Here is a site (http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceGSR.htm)describing how residue works. From the site:

Gunshot residues emitted from the muzzle will travel out to distances of approximately 3 and 5 feet in most firearms but in some cases can travel even greater distances. At the 3-5 foot range the gunshot residues may only consist of a few trace particles and make determining the firing distance difficult if not impossible.

As the firearm gets closer to its target the residue concentrations increase and the actual size or diameter to the pattern gets smaller. At around 18-24 inches most firearms will start to deposit considerable concentrations of gunshot residues that may or may not be visible to the eye.

At distances of less than around 12 inches heavy concentrations of visible gunshot residues will normally be deposited.

Based on this information, it seems incredibly unlikely that if the boy shot both men he would only have a handful of particles on his clothing, especially with the shot to Vincent's shoulder and the shots to Tim's head. The barrel would have been close to the boy's legs, barely a foot away. His legs would be covered in residue and the burns would be visible on both men.

You're still not being .22 caliber specific. These numbers cover a wide range of ammunition.

Think of it like comparing the damage that a Honda Civic can do ramming another car. Then compare it to a tractor trailer truck hitting the same car.

[Hawk]

Well, maybe you are right. I cannot quite figure this judge out. I don't have a clue how or if he will rule on the motions, or what his final decision will be. He still has the competency hearings. Do you really think his mind is made up already?

He's human. Like the rest of us.
I'm certain he has made his mind up. Perhaps even since the case first came to him. Have no idea how he'll rule.
Too often the heart and mind don't agree.

[Jacobtk]

You're still not being .22 caliber specific. These numbers cover a wide range of ammunition.

Think of it like comparing the damage that a Honda Civic can do ramming another car. Then compare it to a tractor trailer truck hitting the same car.

I do not think the boy would have thousands of particles on him. However, it does not seem plausible that a .22 would anything under ten particle at close range and certainly not with multiple shots. Also, we do not know where the residue was found on the boy's clothing. Was it thirty particles on both his shirt and pants or most on one article of clothing or all on one article? Carlyon never released that information.

[Hawk]

I do not think the boy would have thousands of particles on him. However, it does not seem plausible that a .22 would anything under ten particle at close range and certainly not with multiple shots. Also, we do not know where the residue was found on the boy's clothing. Was it thirty particles on both his shirt and pants or most on one article of clothing or all on one article? Carlyon never released that information.

It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. GSR, unless taken from a suspects hands at arrest, means nothing. If the boy had touched his rifle that day, or any other day before his clothes were washed, that amount of residue could be on his clothes.
Science is great. But it ain't perfect.
They use a helluva lot of speculation. If, but, what if, maybe, should, might, could have, perhaps, conclusive with, according to, ........etc, etc, etc,.........
It's just that jurors are too stupid to know the lawyering racket.

[mrrogers]

Two drinkers 'meeting up' in a county of 70,000 people and 20 bars is not a 'billion to one' odds. Regardless of mileage. A 'bird dog' is a 'bird dog'. Distance doesn't diminish scent.

well if you lived here youd see what trip it reallly is. its not a drive on a country road and show low has nothing to do with the case anyway
fyi its not in the same county either
for john it would be a long drive part of it thru a nasty canyon
the distance doesnt diminsh scent thing and a bird dog is a bird dog thing i dont get either
what im saying is rather strange they both meet up in the same store same day same time with the distance involved i dont get your post at all and its also in a different county so whatever i just think its to much of a coincidence :w00t:

[PensiveOne]

You're still not being .22 caliber specific. These numbers cover a wide range of ammunition.

Think of it like comparing the damage that a Honda Civic can do ramming another car. Then compare it to a tractor trailer truck hitting the same car.

Actually, a .22 lead bullet leaves more GSR than a larger caliber with a metal jacket.

Here, knock yourself out! It is a word doc, so if you don't have MS Word you can't read it. AND you have to cut and paste the link.

http://www.magnoliaroad.net/~bgordon/handguns_and_ammunition_indicators_wrev3.doc

[PensiveOne]

He's human. Like the rest of us.
I'm certain he has made his mind up. Perhaps even since the case first came to him. Have no idea how he'll rule.
Too often the heart and mind don't agree.

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. It must be a very heavy weight to carry. I pray for him, too.

[bkwits]

Better delete the three. They're from St. Johns PD!

:w00t: That is funny.

[PensiveOne]

It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. GSR, unless taken from a suspects hands at arrest, means nothing. If the boy had touched his rifle that day, or any other day before his clothes were washed, that amount of residue could be on his clothes.
Science is great. But it ain't perfect.
They use a helluva lot of speculation. If, but, what if, maybe, should, might, could have, perhaps, conclusive with, according to, ........etc, etc, etc,.........
It's just that jurors are too stupid to know the lawyering racket.

Not that it matters, but you can pick up particles from handling unspent bullets.

[mrrogers]

You're still not being .22 caliber specific. These numbers cover a wide range of ammunition.

Think of it like comparing the damage that a Honda Civic can do ramming another car. Then compare it to a tractor trailer truck hitting the same car.

its the same basic principle involved here. i think your getting buried in minutia. whether its a 22 or another gun, the shooter will have more gsr on him then someone who has not shot or been around a gun being fired. if it wasnt so the whole world would be walking around with the same level of gsr on them and it couldnt be used for anything
i read that there would be thousand of particles but im not gonna kill myself trying to find out where i read it
a 44 magnum would probably put out more gsr that a 22 but the shooter is still going to have more gsr on him than someone who hasnt shot the gun or been around one when it is fired.
avila made the statement she was afraid he got the gsr from her when she was interrogating him
so whatever the subject isnt worth spending alot of time on :w00t:

[Hawk]

Here is a site (http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceGSR.htm)describing how residue works. From the site:

Gunshot residues emitted from the muzzle will travel out to distances of approximately 3 and 5 feet in most firearms but in some cases can travel even greater distances. At the 3-5 foot range the gunshot residues may only consist of a few trace particles and make determining the firing distance difficult if not impossible.

As the firearm gets closer to its target the residue concentrations increase and the actual size or diameter to the pattern gets smaller. At around 18-24 inches most firearms will start to deposit considerable concentrations of gunshot residues that may or may not be visible to the eye.

At distances of less than around 12 inches heavy concentrations of visible gunshot residues will normally be deposited.

Based on this information, it seems incredibly unlikely that if the boy shot both men he would only have a handful of particles on his clothing, especially with the shot to Vincent's shoulder and the shots to Tim's head. The barrel would have been close to the boy's legs, barely a foot away. His legs would be covered in residue and the burns would be visible on both men.

The site you're linked is a study of GSR on a shooters hand, not what is expelled from the muzzle, or air borne particles.
But again. It doesn't matter.

[Hawk]

its the same basic principle involved here. i think your getting buried in minutia. whether its a 22 or another gun, the shooter will have more gsr on him then someone who has not shot or been around a gun being fired. if it wasnt so the whole world would be walking around with the same level of gsr on them and it couldnt be used for anything
i read that there would be thousand of particles but im not gonna kill myself trying to find out where i read it
a 44 magnum would probably put out more gsr that a 22 but the shooter is still going to have more gsr on him than someone who hasnt shot the gun or been around one when it is fired.
avila made the statement she was afraid he got the gsr from her when she was interrogating him
so whatever the subject isnt worth spending alot of time on :w00t:

Is this important? Do you think a 12 gauge shotgun doesn't disperse more GSR than a .22?
Or do we need a government funded study by college students in Colorado to tell us what we already know?

[muska]

On cell phones, Ipod, WII, x-Box, Cartoon network, Myspace, anywhere they are insured not to learn a damn thing.

Mine are on Facebook and youtube's Funniest Videos.

[Hawk]

Mine are on Facebook and youtube's Funniest Videos.

Good for you! My family says "I"m Technology retarded". Until I buy something new. Then I'm a "High Tech Redneck."
Can't win. (Though I prefer the latter to the former.)

[rusure?]

Aren't you the one always whining about going off topic?:confused:

I would like to discuss this case. TIA

No, I am not the one always whining aabout going off topic?
I don't whine. And I think I may have said something maybe once since joining this board.

[TaraCrazyHair]

It is a moot point as they never swabbed the boys hands.

Good ole' boys and girls in Mayberry.:thumbdown:

When did they collect his clothes?

[rusure?]

Not in itself.

But when you add in everything else and it starts piling up.... the pile keeps growing larger and larger...there is only one logical conclusion left.

imo

What piles? I don't see any piles getting larger and larger. There is one logical conclusion though. There is no eveidence that proves this boy did it. None that proves anything except the men were shot to death by .22 bullets. 10 shots. That's it. Nothing else proves a thing about this case.

[bookie]

When did they collect his clothes?


The next day IIRC.

[TaraCrazyHair]

No it doesn't. Time for what? It's been three months. He ain't that busy. It's been on his mind since the arrest! Other cases, sure. Routine business. He said so himself.
He knows the boy isn't competent and he has to rule accordingly. He's just trying to figure out a way that the victims get some semblance of satisfaction.
There's never been a case like this before. Hopefully there won't be another.

Actually, I was reading a case in Arz where a 11 or 12 year old boy killed his mother ... and he was sentenced to serve JD until he was 17 but could commit him until 18

He was found guilty of premeditated murder in the first degree for shooting his mother 8 times after an argument over chores

So while he was a bit older than eight .. he was sentenced as a juvenile

I just don't think this is really something new

[TaraCrazyHair]

The next day IIRC.

Thanks

That is what I thought ... so getting GSR from his hands would have not done any good the next day

And the first day they had no reason to suspect CR until a finger was pointed towards him, right?

That cell phone call?

So in that respect and that respect only, I cannot really blame ALE for the GSR testing

[muska]

Good for you! My family says "I"m Technology retarded". Until I buy something new. Then I'm a "High Tech Redneck."
Can't win. (Though I prefer the latter to the former.)

I am definitely "technology retarded." One of these days I am going to take some community ed classes or just get out the computers for dummies book.

[GentleBreeze]

Actually, I was reading a case in Arz where a 11 or 12 year old boy killed his mother ... and he was sentenced to serve JD until he was 17 but could commit him until 18

He was found guilty of premeditated murder in the first degree for shooting his mother 8 times after an argument over chores

So while he was a bit older than eight .. he was sentenced as a juvenile

I just don't think this is really something new

I think what is new is the lower age of 8 and that this case has two homicides in it instead of one.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

How can the cell phone records prove anything other than that there was a call made? It will not prove what was said. And I keep asking this and noone knows or everyone keeps missing my question...Can the phone records show if the call went to voicemail?

Hmmmm .. I use ATT and I know once I answer a VM it is not longer in messages

But it does keep the record of recent calls regardless if answered or if it went to VM

[TaraCrazyHair]

I think what is new is the lower age of 8 and that this case has two homicides in it instead of one.

imoo


If an 11, 12 year old cannot be found guilty as an adult after shooting his mother 8 times over an argument about chores, then how can an eight year old be found guilty as an adult after shooting his dad because of 1000 spankings?

[GentleBreeze]

If an 11, 12 year old cannot be found guilty as an adult after shooting his mother 8 times over an argument about chores, then how can an eight year old be found guilty as an adult after shooting his dad because of 1000 spankings?

As far as I know this boy is being tried in the juvenile system not in adult court.

I don't think there was any verification of the allegations to a 1000 spankings. He told the CPS caseworker he kept the list in his room and a journal and when LE got a SW there was no evidence of that, iirc.

imo

[TaraCrazyHair]

The timeline is most important


I believe the boy's gun is the murder weapon
I believe the cell phone records will corroborate Tonya's statement about hearing the boy or Tim saying the boy blah blah
I believe the ear witness
I believe his prints will be on the casings

Least important

The GSR...it doesn't exclude him as the suspect
Fingerprints on the bullet box ...it just doesn't exclude him either

I believe if the Chipmunk was the murder weapon, then CR would not be at home tonight with his mother

[bkwits]

Actually, I was reading a case in Arz where a 11 or 12 year old boy killed his mother ... and he was sentenced to serve JD until he was 17 but could commit him until 18

He was found guilty of premeditated murder in the first degree for shooting his mother 8 times after an argument over chores

So while he was a bit older than eight .. he was sentenced as a juvenile

I just don't think this is really something new

Just to get it straight, there was more than the argument over chores. The mom was abusing the boy both emotionally and physically, according to his sister. The mom rejected the boy and didn't want him to live with her. Mom's BF had taught boy to shoot the pistol mom kept in her nightstand. The story is boy got gun which was loaded and shot mom when she came home. He then gave the gun to the BF. I always wondered what part the BF played in that killing.

Imo

[TaraCrazyHair]

As far as I know this boy is being tried in the juvenile system not in adult court.

I don't think there was any verification of the allegations to a 1000 spankings. He told the CPS caseworker he kept the list in his room and a journal and when LE got a SW there was no evidence of that, iirc.

imo

The DA was pushing to try him as an adult, that was my understanding


As far as the spankings .. I never really believed that to begin with but people needed a motive so that became the weapon

[muska]

If an 11, 12 year old cannot be found guilty as an adult after shooting his mother 8 times over an argument about chores, then how can an eight year old be found guilty as an adult after shooting his dad because of 1000 spankings?

Prosecution can move this to adult court if they are allowed to drop one charge. They might not do that but they could. I wouldn't want to have to count on them doing the right thing. Remember, when the boy was first arrested, the police chief said they would push for the boy to be tried as an adult.

[bkwits]

The DA was pushing to try him as an adult, that was my understanding


As far as the spankings .. I never really believed that to begin with but people needed a motive so that became the weapon


Yes I agree with both points that you made.

[GentleBreeze]

Just to get it straight, there was more than the argument over chores. The mom was abusing the boy both emotionally and physically, according to his sister. The mom rejected the boy and didn't want him to live with her. Mom's BF had taught boy to shoot the pistol mom kept in her nightstand. The story is boy got gun which was loaded and shot mom when she came home. He then gave the gun to the BF. I always wondered what part the BF played in that killing.

Imo

Did the Judge buy that or convict him of First Degree Murder? Seems if the Judge believed the abuse allegation he would have convicted him on a lessor degree.

imoo

[rusure?]

No it doesn't. Time for what? It's been three months. He ain't that busy. It's been on his mind since the arrest! Other cases, sure. Routine business. He said so himself.
He knows the boy isn't competent and he has to rule accordingly. He's just trying to figure out a way that the victims get some semblance of satisfaction.
There's never been a case like this before. Hopefully there won't be another.

The case may have been lingering for 3 months, but a large amout of evidence has just been disclosed on Jan. 27th. How can a judge honestly come to a decission unless he has seen or heard everything involved in the case? He can't and he can't in 2 days either.

[GentleBreeze]

The DA was pushing to try him as an adult, that was my understanding


As far as the spankings .. I never really believed that to begin with but people needed a motive so that became the weapon


I heard the Police Chief say that when the case first happened but since then it has all been handled in juvie court.

[muska]

Just to get it straight, there was more than the argument over chores. The mom was abusing the boy both emotionally and physically, according to his sister. The mom rejected the boy and didn't want him to live with her. Mom's BF had taught boy to shoot the pistol mom kept in her nightstand. The story is boy got gun which was loaded and shot mom when she came home. He then gave the gun to the BF. I always wondered what part the BF played in that killing.

Imo

Just like the 10 year old boy in Texas who shot his father while they were both in the car. That mother definitely played a large role in what that kid did and she wasn't ever charged with anything. And the kid is sitting in jail. The jury said they sentenced him to juvie because they felt he needed to be away from his mother. How ridiculous! Why not sever the mother's rights? The grandparents were willing to take him.

[rusure?]

He's human. Like the rest of us.
I'm certain he has made his mind up. Perhaps even since the case first came to him. Have no idea how he'll rule.
Too often the heart and mind don't agree.

If the judge made up his mind when the case first came to him, then he should be removed from the bench. I don't believe he made his mind up before seening or heard all the evidence and the bulk of it was not disclosed until Jan 27th.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Just to get it straight, there was more than the argument over chores. The mom was abusing the boy both emotionally and physically, according to his sister. The mom rejected the boy and didn't want him to live with her. Mom's BF had taught boy to shoot the pistol mom kept in her nightstand. The story is boy got gun which was loaded and shot mom when she came home. He then gave the gun to the BF. I always wondered what part the BF played in that killing.

Imo

I suppose we could find similarities and discrepancies all we wanted if we compared the two, especially in the minds of the two boys ... but the bottom line to me is the 12 year old was deemed able to be rehabilitated in the proper environment and if it were to be true that CR committed these crimes .. so would he

Children killing a parent is sadly not so new to the Court system

What is different in the case is the need to kill two people

[rusure?]

When did they collect his clothes?

The morning after the murders, at his grandmothers.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I heard the Police Chief say that when the case first happened but since then it has all been handled in juvie court.

It has to be determined in Juvenile Court to try to prosecute as a minor or as an adult

Correct?

Determined by a Judge

So for now, all proceedings will be in Juvenile Court ...

:confused:

[bkwits]

I suppose we could find similarities and discrepancies all we wanted if we compared the two, especially in the minds of the two boys ... but the bottom line to me is the 12 year old was deemed able to be rehabilitated in the proper environment and if it were to be true that CR committed these crimes .. so would he

Children killing a parent is sadly not so new to the Court system

What is different in the case is the need to kill two people


What is also different is his young age and the fact that he seemed to be so close to his dad.

IMO

[GentleBreeze]

I suppose we could find similarities and discrepancies all we wanted if we compared the two, especially in the minds of the two boys ... but the bottom line to me is the 12 year old was deemed able to be rehabilitated in the proper environment and if it were to be true that CR committed these crimes .. so would he

Children killing a parent is sadly not so new to the Court system

What is different in the case is the need to kill two people

I agree and I think it is the two murders that has sent this case into a tailspin.

It would be interesting to now how many of these juveniles, once incarcerated in the detention center, given rehabilitation and extensive mental therapy, became productive members of society.

The last stats I read there is a 50% recidivism rate concerning juvenile offenders.

imoo

[muska]

The differences in attitudes around the country regarding hunting and guns is pretty interesting. When my kids were really little, we lived near a major city. None of our friends even wanted their kids to play with guns....wanted them to be nonviolent. We were all into arts and crafts and dance and singing and whatever. Then we moved to a fairly rural area and at first, I was shocked! All the little boys had toys guns and when they didn't have their toys, they shot at each other with sticks or just their fingers. I am, as long as no one is being hurt, a "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" type person so soon my youngest had guns and was out there shooting away with his new friends too. He never did get to be a decent shot though. It was just funny though....the contrast.

[muska]

What is also different is his young age and the fact that he seemed to be so close to his dad.

IMO

I wonder if we will ever know what happened. That would be nice but I don't think it is too likely.

[muska]

And no prior behavioral issues....:confused:

How is your new little girl doing?

[Jacobtk]

Did the Judge buy that or convict him of First Degree Murder? Seems if the Judge believed the abuse allegation he would have convicted him on a lessor degree.

The judge did believe the abuse allegations, which were verified by every member of the boy's family who testified. That is why he rejected the state's petition to sentence the boy as an adult. The judge decided that 6 or 7 years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse in juvenile prison would "rehabilitate" an abused child who killed his abuser. The irony is that had the boy's mother killed her boyfriend and claimed she was a victim of abuse, the woman would have walked.

It would be interesting to now how many of these juveniles, once incarcerated in the detention center, given rehabilitation and extensive mental therapy, became productive members of society.

Very few. Most of the studies available, except those created by states attempting to maintain their funding, show that prison does not rehabilitate anyone, particularly not juveniles. In general, the longer a child spends incarcerated (at one time or in and out of prison), the more likely that child will end up in adult prison. Even short stints cause more problems than they solve.

[mrrogers]

How can the cell phone records prove anything other than that there was a call made? It will not prove what was said. And I keep asking this and noone knows or everyone keeps missing my question...Can the phone records show if the call went to voicemail?

didnt justicedawg say the ballastics of the weapons didnt match
the records can tell where the cellphone was when the call was made too
i doubt the records will show if it went to voicemail but if it go to voicemail it would show the location of the caller since it was an answered call.

[mrrogers]

My thought is that the court already knows what to do. It's the 'How' that has him vexed.

what can he do but find him incompetent when hes been found that way by both psychologists.
thats all he has to do and the whole thing is over
slimeball car:w00t:lyons motion to drop one of the charges goes nowhere because it was never heard or is dropped with prejudice which in my opinion should be done not only because the boys innocent but to show
carlyon hes just got to big for his britches with this
and the judge can probably order psychological care that he needs
you all are entitled to think what ya want but i really do think cr is innocent and is being drug thru hell.
im glad the judge let him go home for a little while :w00t:

[mrrogers]

Exoneration is best! :thumbsup:

i dont think theyll do that cuz that would mean they made a mistake
of course the judge really doesnt have to cover for an idiot police chief
i just got thru listening to that idiot police chief
i dont think hed be with his mom if there was any doubt of his innocense
i just got a feeling carlyon is gonna pull some stupid stuff of course
hes been pretty quiet
i really think he needs to be taken down a notch or two lol

[Jacobtk]

I think the best case scenario is that the judge dismisses the case due to lack of evidence on Feb. 5th. That is assuming that the state's evidence does not point to the boy or is too inconclusive to go to trial. I highly, highly doubt Carlyon will drop the charges on his own sans some monumental piece of evidence. The man reminds me of Mike Nifong and being such he will probably state the boy is guilty even if the evidence points to a different person.

The worst case scenario would be that the judge allows this to go to trial. I cannot see Roca finding the boy competent or restorable given that both experts reached the same conclusions. That would be beyond unethical. I can see Roca taking this to trial, though he may or may not want to.

If the charges are dismissed, I would hope that the police and the DA would not just throw their hands up in the air. They could continue to investigate (or should I say actually investigate) the crime to try and find new leads.

[mrrogers]

I think the best case scenario is that the judge dismisses the case due to lack of evidence on Feb. 5th. That is assuming that the state's evidence does not point to the boy or is too inconclusive to go to trial. I highly, highly doubt Carlyon will drop the charges on his own sans some monumental piece of evidence. The man reminds me of Mike Nifong and being such he will probably state the boy is guilty even if the evidence points to a different person.

The worst case scenario would be that the judge allows this to go to trial. I cannot see Roca finding the boy competent or restorable given that both experts reached the same conclusions. That would be beyond unethical. I can see Roca taking this to trial, though he may or may not want to.

If the charges are dismissed, I would hope that the police and the DA would not just throw their hands up in the air. They could continue to investigate (or should I say actually investigate) the crime to try and find new leads.

roca all ready refused a request for trial by jury
i dont think the state has much if anything :w00t::w00t:

[mrrogers]

Is this important? Do you think a 12 gauge shotgun doesn't disperse more GSR than a .22?
Or do we need a government funded study by college students in Colorado to tell us what we already know?

i just told ya i thought a 44 put out more gsr than a 22 so would a shotgun im sure but it wasnt a shotgun or a 44 that was used. im only going with what ive read on this blog. avila was concerned about it coming from her so it must be something they would take a look at

[mrrogers]

It's meaningless. It will never be brought up in court.

well all i know is avila was afraid it came from her
for someone like her to worry about i figured it must be important:w00t:

[mrrogers]

Big John didn't even know about the States comp results. Shows Carylon isn't telling the family anything!:cursing:

I don't think Mrs. Romans did it.

the last thing i heard they didnt think c was the killer
big john seemed [pretty upset tonite at the news
he had said before he wasnt so sure c did it so im wondeirng why hes so shook up now
just frustrated from not being able to find who did this i guess:confused::confused:

[mrrogers]

They have to be reeling from all of this.

Yes, like he said this isn't stealing some candy bar from a store.

Even Wood said the boy is still charged with double homicide. And there is absolutely no evidence proving that Big John is wrong in how he and the Romans believes.

imoo

the last time i heard they werent sure c did this
there isnt anything to connect c to this crime
the cooerced testimony is out avila and neckles should given a 90 day suspension without pay if not fired for pulling what they did
i havent heard of anything that connects him to this mess
that article i read said gsr or the lack of it can be used to exonerate
someone and he only had 32 particles on his clothes avila was afriad it come from her,
so evidently its something they look at
wood said the sj police had been in the house 2-3 times before his people got in so they probably contaminated the crime scene
then dps had been there and sj pd was back in afters woods crew got out evidently they are not up on procedure to prevent contamination
actually i think about all they are qualified for is giving speeding tickets and such :w00t::w00t::w00t:

[GentleBreeze]

I think the best case scenario is that the judge dismisses the case due to lack of evidence on Feb. 5th. That is assuming that the state's evidence does not point to the boy or is too inconclusive to go to trial. I highly, highly doubt Carlyon will drop the charges on his own sans some monumental piece of evidence. The man reminds me of Mike Nifong and being such he will probably state the boy is guilty even if the evidence points to a different person.

The worst case scenario would be that the judge allows this to go to trial. I cannot see Roca finding the boy competent or restorable given that both experts reached the same conclusions. That would be beyond unethical. I can see Roca taking this to trial, though he may or may not want to.

If the charges are dismissed, I would hope that the police and the DA would not just throw their hands up in the air. They could continue to investigate (or should I say actually investigate) the crime to try and find new leads.

Wouldn't that all fall back on the newly elected CA Whiting though? He is the man in charge and Carylon is only under his direction.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

the last time i heard they werent sure c did this
there isnt anything to connect c to this crime
the cooerced testimony is out avila and neckles should given a 90 day suspension without pay if not fired for pulling what they did
i havent heard of anything that connects him to this mess
that article i read said gsr or the lack of it can be used to exonerate
someone and he only had 32 particles on his clothes avila was afriad it come from her,
so evidently its something they look at
wood said the sj police had been in the house 2-3 times before his people got in so they probably contaminated the crime scene
then dps had been there and sj pd was back in afters woods crew got out evidently they are not up on procedure to prevent contamination
actually i think about all they are qualified for is giving speeding tickets and such :w00t::w00t::w00t:

Well Big John spoke out this past Thursday and he sure thinks the boy did this and so does Tanya or she wouldn't be upset that the boy accused of murdering her husband is out and and about.

Yes, that is right, if no gunshot residue had been found at all that can be used to try to exonerate him. That was not the case though, GSR was found. No expert said thousands of particles would be found on his clothing,they said dozens of particles would be found.

imo

[Cherishlove]

Well Big John spoke out this past Thursday and he sure thinks the boy did this and so does Tanya or she wouldn't be upset that the boy accused of murdering her husband is out and and about.

Yes, that is right, if no gunshot residue had been found at all that can be used to try to exonerate him. That was not the case though, GSR was found. No expert said thousands of particles would be found on his clothing,they said dozens of particles would be found.

imoYa well last time Big John spoke he was waivering if the boy even did this, also Tanya doesn't think her husband was cheating on her either according to her sister-in law on another post. I think she thinks if the boy goes down for this she has closure but she needs to come to reality and realize what really was going in her husbands life and all that had motive.

[GentleBreeze]

Ya well last time Big John spoke he was waivering if the boy even did this, also Tanya doesn't think her husband was cheating on her either according to her sister-in law on another post. I think she thinks if the boy goes down for this she has closure but she needs to come to reality and realize what really was going in her husbands life and all that had motive.

I think Big John is a very reasonable man. Quite calm and thoughtful imo. Yes, he did say previously he understood why others looked for someone else to blame because no one is prepared to think an eight year old could be capable of doing this. I agree.

He now must have put aside those outside theories. It is evident that he does believe this boy is the one who did this and I imagine the rest of the Romans family and friends feel the same and either of them have every right in the world to voice those opinions.

Maybe they realized that some of the theorists were actually some of the ones accusing Tanya Romans of not only being a liar but the murderer of her husband, as well.

imoo

[rusure?]

One thing I have learned is DA's don't tell family members much of anything. Tanya may not know, she may not WANT to know, she may be in denial. Hell Big John didn't even know the state's Dr. found the boy incompetent too.
That isn't an issue here.
I don't see the boy going down for this as "closure" at all!

The TRUTH of what happenened would be "closure".
The Exoneration of CR!

You are 100% correct. I've said the same thing here and got pounced on for it.

[GentleBreeze]

One thing I have learned is DA's don't tell family members much of anything. Tanya may not know, she may not WANT to know, she may be in denial. Hell Big John didn't even know the state's Dr. found the boy incompetent too.
That isn't an issue here.
I don't see the boy going down for this as "closure" at all!

The TRUTH of what happened would be "closure".
The Exoneration of CR!

I don't think it would change Big John's opinion even if he did know.

He is very resigned that the victims will never receive justice in this case and the boy will be let go.

I do think the DA/LE and detention center keeps them abreast of things. They were the first to know how many times the victims had been shot. They came out with that information even before the hearing was held.



imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Full exoneration means what in YOUR brain?


Fully exonerated means fully vindicated, imo.


WordNet Search - 3.0 - WordNet home page - Glossary - Help

Verb
S: (v) justify, vindicate (show to be right by providing justification or proof) "vindicate a claim"
S: (v) vindicate (maintain, uphold, or defend) "vindicate the rights of the citizens"
S: (v) vindicate (clear of accusation, blame, suspicion, or doubt with supporting proof) "You must vindicate yourself and fight this libel"
Adjective
S: (adj) absolved, clear, cleared, exculpated, exonerated, vindicated (freed from any question of guilt) "is absolved from all blame"; "was now clear of the charge of cowardice"; "his official honor is vindicated"
WordNet home page

[GentleBreeze]

She is in Denial. Big time. Her hub and was sleeping with many other women.

What does that have to do with anything. I highly doubt that Big John is in denial too just because Tim was having an affair a 170 miles away from where he lived.

imoo

[bkwits]

Started a new thread for today.

Come on over. :seeya:

[rusure?]

As far as I know, none of the shots were considered close range. (leaving GSR or stippling on victims)

Evidence:
Timeline: iirc
4:52-Tim calls Tanya, tells her Vincent just went into the house.
4:55-Tim ended call. “something’s wrong”
5:03-3 shots heard by neighbor
5:06-teens dad calls 911 after arriving home and looking at Romans
5:12-boy tried to call Tiffany at NAPA, no answer
5:14-boy calls Tiffany at NAPA
5:20-Rodrigez in report says he arrives on the scene

Questions regarding timeline:
Between 4:52 and 4:55 Romero is killed on steps as he is going up steps. 3 minutes

Between 4:55 and 5:03 Tim is killed. 8 minutes.

Between 5:03 and 5:06 the boy goes across to the teen’s house. Finds out his friend who is a girl was not there. Tells teen his dad is dead. Teen gets his cell phone to call his father to tell him what happens. Father arrives and looks at Tim and then calls 911. 3 minutes.

Between 5:06 and 5:20 Rodrigez arrives on the scene. 14 minutes.

IMO this timeline is a little off somehow. How is it the killer took 3 minutes to kill Vincent with four shots. I would think Vincent would have had time to get a weapon or do something beside stay on the steps for 3 minutes to be shot 4 times. What was the killer doing for 3 minutes?? I wouldn’t think a shot to the elbow would incapacitate Vincent. The head shots would.

What was the killer doing for 8 minutes with Tim. Tim is shot 6 times and two shots apparently are shot consecutively to the chest. Why would the neighbor only hear 3 shots eight minutes after knowing something is wrong?

It is feasible to take 3 minutes to go to the teens house and explain what was happening, but not for everything else to take place.
Why did it take Rodrigez 14 minutes to arrive on the scene?

If this timeline is not correct, please correct me.
The above questions are all IMO.

[rusure?]

:confused: "Emitted from the muzzle" the boy wasn't in front of the muzzle. This is discussing the pattern and residue found on victims which could be helpful determining the distance the shooter was from them.

The barrel would have been close to the boys legs?:confused:

How long is a chipmunk gun total? Isn't it smaller than an adult rifle so a child could use it?

[rusure?]

Oops. Sorry Linda. I clicked on the wrong button when I posted my timeline questions. I wasn't addressing your post.:blushing:

[rusure?]

I don't think it's a matter of making up his mind one way or the other. Nothing was preventing him from considering all options should the results point to his guilt or innocence. Surely, he's considered what to do in the event of either.

imo

Look at post 1028, which is what I was replying to.

[wolfi_2]

For the GSR , just go into your kitchen put a bit of flour in a straw, take a small piece of paper, form a ball (as bullet)and put it in into the straw also. Now blow through the straw (from the flour Site), How far will the flour go? The flour particles are very small, so you will notice the most of the flour will be in a cloud around the muzzle of your straw. GSR particles will be smaller than flour particles, those particles are that light weight that they can't take much energy from the shoot, the most of all particles will be in a cloud around the gun muzzle because the surrounding air will stop them immediately the same effect will have a feather, take a small one and try to throw it away . The boy would have a lot more of GSR on his clothes than they found.
And this isn´t a theory, its physic!