1/26 to 1/28

[ChildsVOICE]

One thing that has always bothered me...

The boy said he did NOT see anybody LEAVING the house.

Here's some possibilities why:

1) boy is blocked by obsticles as he's coming home, perhaps he's on another street and only sees "truck through so & so's trees" must be walking past houses, cars, trees, etc. that are blocking his view.

2) boy sees TR getting shot doesn't realize what he is seeing because the shooter is hiding at column/ bush doesn't understand why TR is disappearing toward the ground or doesn't see it because truck or other things are blocking his view.

3) shooter leaves the house by some other means perhaps the back door OR through other window, over the balcony, etc.

4) the shooter ducks somewhere in the house to hide from boy as the boy checks out the house, calling for dad and finds dad, cries for dad then runs away. After boy leaves, Shooter leaves and runs toward the back of house or other location where the driver is awaiting him.
They heard the boy calling and coming tell each other to meet at the back of the house & down the street or other location so boy doesn't see them both. They don't expect the boy to notice the vehicle.

5) boy blocks out what he witnessed

[fairlaw]

I've not been able to keep up on all of the goings on in this case.

Is that little boy still in jail?

Do they still think he killed two grown men?

Any convincing evidence that he could/would have done it?

I don't know anything about his mother, would she be ok to take care of him?

I guess that's the most important stuff, thanks in advance.

[JusticeDawg©]

jd, (no spitting please), et al, roflmao

i've not been able to keep up on all of the goings on in this case.

Is that little boy still in jail?yes

do they still think he killed two grown men? it has been so quiet. The state appealed the court judges decision to not rule on substantive issues before competency is established. They won, in part. Forcing the judge to rule on motion to dismiss count 1
any convincing evidence that he could/would have done it? nothing in evidence yet. Not even if the boys gun was the murder weapon. They have until the 30th.

i don't know anything about his mother, would she be ok to take care of him? gardian ad litem involved. His mother now has custody of him.

i guess that's the most important stuff, thanks in advance
yw!!!!!!!!

[GentleBreeze]

From your post above

The way I read it, it doesn't really force the judge to rule. He can still rule as he did. The way I read the sc's decision, I think it means he is not precluded from ruling because there is a competency issue, but doesn't necessarily mean he has to rule. The judge can still wait if he so chooses, imo.

I will be the first to say, I do not exactly understand what the Court was really trying to say but it seems they only gave a partial ruling due to the fact that no appealable error had occurred yet.

Ruling on a motion to dismiss after he decides the competency issues seems to be odd and backward. If he ruled that the boy is age incompetent then how could he then rule on the motion to dismiss? And I think all motions have to have a ruling one way or the other by Judges. They are valid issues that have to be addressed and it just makes sense that it happens before he finalizes the issue on competency because if he deems him age incompetent and cannot be reassessed in 240 days then the case is dead from that point on.

It also made me think that the Court thought that JR was applying the rules used for an adult court competency issue and not one that is trying to determine age competency in a juvenile.

Just my interpretation though.

imoo

[Cherishlove]

good morning it is -11 here and cold!
dear eryn:
god doesn't give you the people you want, he gives you the people you need. to help you, to hurt you, to leave you, to love you and make you into the person you were meant to be. dear god help her son to excel above his expectations. help him shine in the darkest places where it is impossible to love. protect him at all times, lift him up when he needs you the most, and let him know when he walks with you. let him always be safe. god bless!That was a really sweet thing for you to say. I keep praying for the little boy everyday, it's hard to imagine a small child of that age being locked up and isloated it really bothers me, there is no excuse for it at all, they did it within 24 hours made up there mind without properly investigating, which is unreal and inhumane to say the least to do that to anyone let alone a small child. I read childsvoice website today, I bet his Mom could use some help financially.

[JusticeDawg©]

Those are excellent questions. Why didn't the officers during their hour long coerced interrorgation as those questions rather than leading him down the path of confessing? These are questions that I hope the defense asks the officers involved during the trial (if there is one), and pursue those questions with a vengence.

Questions should also be asked concerning LE "investigation" regarding searching the mobile home in the back yard, the dead bolt lock issue, and searching on the balcony for any trace evidence (i.e. hair and fiber). LE should be nailed to the wall on those types of neglegent investigation.
They didn't want the facts of the matter, they wanted a "confession". Of course they did help CR's case. They treated him like the baby that he is.

LE and the illegal search warrant keeps popping in my head for some reason. LOL

:tonguewag:

[wolfi_2]

I will be the first to say, I do not exactly understand what the Court was really trying to say but it seems they only gave a partial ruling due to the fact that no appealable error had occurred yet.

Ruling on a motion to dismiss after he decides the competency issues seems to be odd and backward. If he ruled that the boy is age incompetent then how could he then rule on the motion to dismiss? And I think all motions have to have a ruling one way or the other by Judges. They are valid issues that have to be addressed and it just makes sense that it happens before he finalizes the issue on competency because if he deems him age incompetent and cannot be reassessed in 240 days then the case is dead from that point on.

It also made me think that the Court thought that JR was applying the rules used for an adult court competency issue and not one that is trying to determine age competency in a juvenile.

Just my interpretation though.

imoo

If he ruled about the incompetence in favor to the boy, there is no need to rule on the motion to dismiss because it doesn't make sense. If he ruled about the incompetence in favor to DA he must try to make him competent during the next 240 days, imo useless. If If he ruled on the motion to dismiss one charge before he ruled about the competence to stand trial, he produced a loophole for the DA and that is unfair !

[JusticeDawg©]

If he ruled about the incompetence in favor to the boy, there is no need to rule on the motion to dismiss because it doesn't make sense. If he ruled about the incompetence in favor to DA he must try to make him competent during the next 240 days, imo useless. If he ruled on the motion to dismiss one charge, he produced a loophole for the DA and that is unfair !

It is unethical to rule on a motion submitted AFTER a competency evaluation has been ordered.
I think this Judge is doing the right thing.

moo

[wolfi_2]

It is unethical to rule on a motion submitted AFTER a competency evaluation has been ordered.
I think this Judge is doing the right thing.

moo

Again, why are the most country´s of the world don't try such young children in court? -and why did the most of them draw the line around 12 years? I think , because it´s useless to try a child before 12 and it is against common sense!

[JusticeDawg©]

Again, why are the most country´s of the world don't try such young children in court? -and why did the most of them draw the line around 12 years? I think , because it´s useless to try a child before 12 and it is against common sense!

I totally agree.
Welcome to good old USA!

[Hawk]

Again, why are the most country´s of the world don't try such young children in court? -and why did the most of them draw the line around 12 years? I think , because it´s useless to try a child before 12 and it is against common sense!


We suffer from too much education and not enough salvation.

[muska]

Again, why are the most country´s of the world don't try such young children in court? -and why did the most of them draw the line around 12 years? I think , because it´s useless to try a child before 12 and it is against common sense!

The United States and Somalia are the only countries that have not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. That has to say something.

[muska]

We suffer from too much education and not enough salvation.

and not enough common sense.

[muska]

which illegal search warrant? (which one?)

I would have thought they would have included the trailer and confescated the truck as well in the search warrant or at least a separate one. Where did the LE get their education? The NAPA store?

They should have required the troops to watch Law and Order more often.

[JusticeDawg©]

which illegal search warrant? (which one?)

I would have thought they would have included the trailer and confescated the truck as well in the search warrant or at least a separate one. Where did the LE get their education? The NAPA store?
The main one LOL
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/
MOTION TO SUPRESS ILLEGAL WARRANT.pdf

They did not do a complete investigaion, if we can see that, don't you think Judge Roca can see it too?

NAPA :lol::lol::lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

They should have required the troops to watch Law and Order more often.

I needed these giggles on a Monday. :lol::lol::lol:

[muska]

I needed these giggles on a Monday. :lol::lol::lol:

Do you think Judge Roca will rule one way or the other on the 29th or do you think he'll wait until after the competency hearing to rule. I've seen both opinions - that he has to rule before the competency hearing and also that it's his choice. Not sure what to believe. What do you think?

[JusticeDawg©]

Do you think Judge Roca will rule one way or the other on the 29th or do you think he'll wait until after the competency hearing to rule. I've seen both opinions - that he has to rule before the http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/ hearing and also that it's his choice. Not sure what to believe. What do you think?

I think Judge Roca already knows what his ruling is on competency.
He is not a stupid man.
Either way the Motion to dismiss without prejudice will not fly.

moo

[JusticeDawg©]

too much education?? from the sound of things LE didn't get enough education.

Hey! They watched Barney!

[muska]

I think Judge Roca already knows what his ruling is on competency.
He is not a stupid man.
Either way the Motion to dismiss without prejudice will not fly.

moo

I hope you're right! If the judge surprises us and rules in favor of Carlyon, do you think Brewer could appeal that or challenge it in some way?

Did you follow the King case back 6 or 7 years ago? That judge just seemed to go along with the prosecutor on everything. That worries me. In the end, though, the prosecutor went too far and the verdict was thrown out.

[Cherishlove]

yeah i was at the my space page and i hope she gets some help financially,too. i really don't have the extra cash to send her because we are paying our bills and trying to save for summer vacation. although my son, who is 9 years old wants to send this little boy a few extra dollars to buy ice cream when he gets out and you know i will let him send it and the thought of that about makes me wanna cry. i just thought that was the sweetest gesture i've heard in a while. i totally agree with you the thought of the little boy still being isolated makes me sick to my stomach. i hope this is the week we hear good solid news of that little boy going home to be with his mother for good! its been waaaaaaay to long for him to be there and its over time for the judge to get off his butt and do some good for that llittle boy and his family.You have a nice little boy there he is thinking of doing something nice for someone else that needs it, it really made me a bit choked up myself to think a little boy same age wants to help this little boy too.

[Cherishlove]

Originally Posted by minnesotamom
its been waaaaaaay to long for him to be there and its over time for the judge to get off his butt and do some good for that llittle boy and his family.

I 100% agree this has gone on too long for that small child, it's hard to understand it, I just simply don't, he's not going to be competent he's 9years old, anyone in there right mind knows that.

The right thing would of been the Ankle Bracelet/Monitor the Child while they properly investigated, I don't even want the Ankle Braclet but you know to follow the law they could of done that. Let's hope we hear some good news soon for this little boy.

[muska]

When has ethics been a priority in this case. The interrorgation of the boy was unethical.

and the release of the interrorgation

[Hawk]

I thought you implied Tiffany was as much responsible for the boy as his father. So what's wrong with her giving LE permission to interview the boy?

She isn't the boys next of kin, or legal guardian. LE should have checked before they asked her. They assumed she was the boys mother.

[dgfred]

Hey! They watched Barney!


Barney Fife or Barney the Dinosaur? :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

imithiunk granted her as much status in an earlier post. I was just asking for some clairifcation.

Sorry. Didn't mean to get in the middle.

[Jacobtk]

I hope you're right! If the judge surprises us and rules in favor of Carlyon, do you think Brewer could appeal that or challenge it in some way?

I think he could, but it probably would be denied. Appeals courts are not keen on reversing the rulings of judges unless they are bizarrely egregious.

[muska]

I think he could, but it probably would be denied. Appeals courts are not keen on reversing the rulings of judges unless they are bizarrely egregious.

So if Carlyon wins, the state can bring charges whenever it wants? What are the chances that charge could eventually be heard in adult court? I wonder if Carlyon is trying to get Brewer to agree to a plea deal this week.

[JusticeDawg©]

So if Carlyon wins, the state can bring charges whenever it wants? What are the chances that charge could eventually be heard in adult court? I wonder if Carlyon is trying to get Brewer to agree to a plea deal this week.

If JR was going to dismiss count 1, he would have done it already.

[Jacobtk]

So if Carlyon wins, the state can bring charges whenever it wants? What are the chances that charge could eventually be heard in adult court? I wonder if Carlyon is trying to get Brewer to agree to a plea deal this week.

Yes, if Roca rules in Carlyon's favor Carlyon could refile the charges at any point. Carylon's intent appears to be to wait until the boy could reasonably be found competent and automatically charged as an adult, which in Arizona is at the age of 15.

Carlyon probably is pushing for the plea deal because his case in general is weak (if not non-existent) and a gamble. However, the plea deal is not really a deal. He did not guarantee the boy would remain in the juvenile court system. He stated that he would decide that based on the results of the competency hearing. If the boy takes the deal and is found incompetent to stand trial, he could be placed in prison until 18 instead of released because he accepted the deal.

[dgfred]

I thought I read somewhere that Brewer would not entertain any plea bargain that involved any custody or detention.

Why would the defense entertain a plea deal at all?

[Jacobtk]

I thought I read somewhere that Brewer would not entertain any plea bargain that involved any custody or detention.

He did. I was stating what Carlyon's deal really is. It is not a deal or a promise. It is akin to Harvey Dent flipping his coin.

[muska]

He did. I was stating what Carlyon's deal really is. It is not a deal or a promise. It is akin to Harvey Dent flipping his coin.

So sounds like there's nothing to consider........at least that makes it easy.

[muska]

taking responsibility for a child's behavior living with you is one thing, she was involved in parenting the child when she spanked him. Legalities are another.

IMO, you were not asking for clarification, you were trying to pick an argument. I'm not playing your game anymore.

I agree with everything you've said here!!!

[Jacobtk]

So sounds like there's nothing to consider........at least that makes it easy.

There really is not. It makes me wonder about the deals Carlyon offers in general. It is at least unethical to entrap someone in the manner Carlyon is attempting to do.

[JusticeDawg©]

There really is not. It makes me wonder about the deals Carlyon offers in general. It is at least unethical to entrap someone in the manner Carlyon is attempting to do.

He needs a slap right in the face. I'll go do it! :cursing: Youse guys can call me anything you want.

[Perplexed1]

Thank you.

I think that hot nostril dude took a hike with gentle (not) breeze:tonguewag:

[JusticeDawg©]

I think that hot nostril dude took a hike with gentle (not) breeze:tonguewag:

:lol::lol:

[mrrogers]

I thought you implied Tiffany was as much responsible for the boy as his father. So what's wrong with her giving LE permission to interview the boy?

once vinny was dead she had no authority to so her ok is null and void just like it never was given. a smart cop would have or should have known that.

[Jacobtk]

He needs a slap right in the face. I'll go do it! :cursing: Youse guys can call me anything you want.

I would like to ask Carlyon just how stupid he thinks Woods and Brewer are. He has to have a fairly low opinion of them to think that he can push this kind of deal and assume they would take it.

[Cherishlove]

:thumbsup:I think that hot nostril dude took a hike with gentle (not) breeze:tonguewag::thumbsup:

[JusticeDawg©]

I would like to ask Carlyon just how stupid he thinks Woods and Brewer are. He has to have a fairly low opinion of them to think that he can push this kind of deal and assume they would take it.

They are from Show Low. They aren't part of the St. John's "click". They will kick Azz and take names for CR!!!!!. :biggrin:

[wolfi_2]

-or discus in chambers and fill their mail boxes…:biggrin:

Wasn't there a other attorney, who wasn't available and Wood/Brewer had to decide if they would take the case or not?

[GentleBreeze]

I think that hot nostril dude took a hike with gentle (not) breeze:tonguewag:

I haven't gone anywhere. I have responsibilities in my real life.

Please refrain from your cutesy remarks and don't change my nic. It is against TOS, in case you didn't know.

imo

[dgfred]

So the 30th is supposed to be a big day?

[JusticeDawg©]

So the 30th is supposed to be a big day?

29th....:biggrin:

[JusticeDawg©]

-or discus in chambers and fill their mail boxes…:biggrin:

Wasn't there a other attorney, who wasn't available and Wood/Brewer had to decide if they would take the case or not?

I had a feeling Brewer would never let go of it. He has kids CR's age. I think this case hits home for him. :wink:

[Jacobtk]

If the forensics are back and do not point to the boy, I wonder if Carlyon will attempt to find out who, if anyone, they point to, or if he will just leave the case unsolved with suspicion still surrounding the boy?

[dgfred]

He might not care if they find the killer(s), but we do!

[IAMME]

once vinny was dead she had no authority to so her ok is null and void just like it never was given. a smart cop would have or should have known that.

It would not legally matter if Vincent was dead, alive, or comatose, Tiffany has NO RIGHTS regarding this child. Period. Ever. She can not legally get him medical care, make educational decisions, NOR can she make legal decisions regarding his care, custody or control.

Any of us can be charged with child abuse or endangerment at any time for any child and it does not matter if you are legally responsible for that child or have any legal rights regarding that child, if you act in a negligent or abusive manner regarding the health safety or well being of ANY child, your own, your spouses, your neighbors, a friends child, then you can and should be charged with the crime you have committed. Arizona law is actually very clear on this in that EVERYONE is a mandatory reporter of child abuse which includes child endangerment.

[Crispy]

Speaking of NAPA, something has puzzled me. Does NAPA sell pants? I thought it was an auto parts store. Didn't Tif go to NAPA with VR's pants for some reason??

Maybe they sell some kind of work pants? That's what I was thinking. Something like coveralls. jmo

[Perplexed1]

I haven't gone anywhere. I have responsibilities in my real life.

Please refrain from your cutesy remarks and don't change my nic. It is against TOS, in case you didn't know.

imo

We all have a life, and a busy one, that's why we don't have time to just argue for the sake of arguing. I promise no cutesy if you promise no arging for sake of arguing. How's that?

[GentleBreeze]

We all have a life, and a busy one, that's why we don't have time to just argue for the sake of arguing. I promise no cutesy if you promise no arging for sake of arguing. How's that?

I don't argue.

I state my opinion about THE CASE.

I do not change posters' nics.

I do not personally comment on posters or make snide remarks about them, which is also against TOS.

imoo

[Hawk]

Maybe they sell some kind of work pants? That's what I was thinking. Something like coveralls. jmo

NAPA sells work clothes and safety gear, in addition to car and truck parts. It may be the only place in St. Johns to get that sort of thing, I don't know.

[dgfred]

I think they just missed the voices of common sense and logic:tongueside:

I for one enjoy hearing your opposing viewpoints, and you two debate them quite well. Here is to more of the same :thumbup: . Now if we could just get some more information to debate over :cursing: .

[wolfi_2]

There is a new court filling at the St. Johns Court site!

RESPONSE TO STATES REQUEST TO SET HEARING

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/RESPONSE%20TO%20STATES%20REQUEST%20TO%20SET%20HEAR ING.pdf

[Hawk]

I for one enjoy hearing your opposing viewpoints, and you two debate them quite well. Here is to more of the same :thumbup: . Now if we could just get some more information to debate over :cursing: .

RNECK Radio in Shakerag, GA is reporting that the deaths in St. Johns AZ was double suicide. They'll have a full report at 6:00pm, after they get their antenna tied back up in the pine tree. (Two bulls were competing for the affection of a young heifer and bumped the tree.)

[Hawk]

There is a new court filling at the St. Johns Court site!

RESPONSE TO STATES REQUEST TO SET HEARING

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/RESPONSE%20TO%20STATES%20REQUEST%20TO%20SET%20HEAR ING.pdf

That Mr. Brewer, he's a fighter!

[wolfi_2]

That Mr. Brewer, he's a fighter!

Yes, he is ! -and a good one!:thumbup:

[IAMME]

Thanks for the education Hawk. I don't go to NAPA so I didn't know they sold pants in an auto parts store. :smile:

The NAPA where i live in addition to auto parts also has (almost) everything you would need for home maintenance...sorta the general hardware store...

[Hawk]

Yes, he is ! -and a good one!:thumbup:

Mr. Carlyon must be hating it, not being accustomed to opposition. Probably anxious to start his new county attorney job in the other county.

[Hawk]

He's probably hoping that LE in the other county isn't like the LE in SJ. It'd make his job a lot easier.

Here's an article on Mr. Carlyon from 2006;

"Everything had to be perfect........"

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2264&dept_id=506172&newsid=17321673&PAG=461&rfi=9

[Hawk]

He must be a terrible lawyer if he didn't file his own motion to dismiss! If there was really zero evidence against the boy, he would have.

imo

Don't know if anyone is saying there is zero evidence, I think it goes to relevance and admissibility. But you'll have to argue that with someone else.
Bullets and side-dishes are more up my alley.

[Jacobtk]

He must be a terrible lawyer if he didn't file his own motion to dismiss! If there was really zero evidence against the boy, he would have.

imo

The issue of evidence is for the jury/bench trial judge to decide, so it is not likely a motion to dismiss based on evidence would be granted. It also makes no sense to file a motion to dismiss if the boy can be found incompetent. If the judge denies the motion, I do not think it can be filed again, at least not without something new being added. Also, given that the judge has refused to rule on any substantive matter, if the motion were submitted, the judge would sit on it. Therefore, it is better to wait.

[Jacobtk]

Sounds like a great name for a band! :biggrin:

Bullets & Side-Dishes!

You better trademark that before someone else does.

[JusticeDawg©]

Judge would not have ruled to have the comp hearing Feb. 6th if he was going to rule on motion to Dismiss.
ORDER SETTING COMPETENCY HEARING.pdf
WOOHOO!@

[wolfi_2]

And another one
ORDER SETTING COMPETENCY HEARING.
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20SETTING%20COMPETENCY%20HEARING.pdf

[wolfi_2]

Judge would not have ruled to have the comp hearing Feb. 6th if he was going to rule on motion to Dismiss.
ORDER SETTING COMPETENCY HEARING.pdf
WOOHOO!@

you are to fast!

[JusticeDawg©]

Ugh...now where o where is that barf icon...oh...HERE IT IS!!!
barf

Ditto :lol:

[shelby77]

Reread my post. My points were:
1-there are many .22 caliber long rifle bullets available.

Couldn't anybody have access to these type bullets?

2-two references to the boy's gun.
No bullistics report yet. Seems to me to have been a rush to judgement that the boy's rifle was in fact the murder weapon. No proof provided to suspect that particular rifle, aside from it being in the house.

Sorry you're so bored. Just skip over my posts, please.


Bored, ppfftt. You just helped me christian my new laptop with Pepsi, thanks lol. Very obvious that you're being sought out and pounced on, no subtlety there, IMO...

[JusticeDawg©]

you are to fast!

Sure am, I have to be. :biggrin:

[JusticeDawg©]

There'll be dancing in the streets!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Ts5K5O63A

[JusticeDawg©]

do you think there'll be a transcript of the competency hearing uploaded? I would love to be able to read it.

There sure will be, but it will take them days to get it up.

[FurthurBB]

I always understood it perfectly, I was simply asking to see of YOU understood it:wink:

I hate to do this, but, after this childish post I must ignore you. IMO

[JusticeDawg©]

ORDER SETTING MOTIONS HEARING.pdf


The Judge seems PO'd. Anyone else getting that feeling?

[JusticeDawg©]

Yeah. It was posted after the competency hearing, kinda like an after thought. Like I better give the jerk a hearing. Teach him to go over my head.

I got the same feeling.

Dismiss Ct 1 with prejudice 29th

Find incompetent to stand trial on Count 2 Feb 6th.

[Jacobtk]

ORDER SETTING MOTIONS HEARING.pdf


The Judge seems PO'd. Anyone else getting that feeling?

It certainly is short for an order.

[JusticeDawg©]

It certainly is short for an order.

Very.
JR said he didn't want to do it before the comp hearing. DA BEGGED.
Let's see what he gets. :wink:
He will have to give his twisted reason.

[wolfi_2]

I think, that will be a very filling week! -for me it´s late, good night!:sleep:

[JusticeDawg©]

I think, that will be a very filling week! -for me it´s late, good night!:sleep:

Nite!:smile:

[ChildsVOICE]

good morning it is -11 here and cold!
dear eryn:
god doesn't give you the people you want, he gives you the people you need. to help you, to hurt you, to leave you, to love you and make you into the person you were meant to be. dear god help her son to excel above his expectations. help him shine in the darkest places where it is impossible to love. protect him at all times, lift him up when he needs you the most, and let him know when he walks with you. let him always be safe. god bless!

I have copied and pasted this to Eryn in an email from the website. Thank you. You help keep me going too!

[JusticeDawg©]

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/opinionfiles/JV/JV050101.pdf

[ChildsVOICE]

The United States and Somalia are the only countries that have not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. That has to say something.

I found those on-line awhile back and have them posted under the blogs of the boy's site.

[muska]

Here's an article on Mr. Carlyon from 2006;

"Everything had to be perfect........"

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2264&dept_id=506172&newsid=17321673&PAG=461&rfi=9

I find it interesting that he blames that first elementary school loss on the fact that the jury disliked the boy and therefore found him guilty. Maybe that's the lesson he took from that first make believe attorney job - get enough dirt out there to make sure the person you're fighting is not well-liked and/or believed and therefore much easier to beat

[muska]

You'd think Officer Neckel would have known Tiffany was just a stepmother.

In this situation, I don't see how Tiffany had a right to allow Eryn's child to be questioned (ahem) by LE. By the time Eryn got word...the damage was already done.:mad:

Neckels had to know. I think that was just all very convenient ignorance. They sure shouldn't get away with that!

[Perplexed1]

The only part that makes me sad is that he has to sit in detention for a week longer...let's hope it is time well spent (sorta) and this will all be behind them and they can start getting the help this child is so desparetly in need of.

They have all the books they need for now--but I know I sent some VERY interesting and colorful books to interest him quite awhile!:smile:

[muska]

When does Details come back? She always has a lot to offer.

[Perplexed1]

You'd think Officer Neckel would have known Tiffany was just a stepmother.

In this situation, I don't see how Tiffany had a right to allow Eryn's child to be questioned (ahem) by LE. By the time Eryn got word...the damage was already done.:mad:

Put that one on your list of people to sue, Eryn. :glare:

[JusticeDawg©]

When does Details come back? She always has a lot to offer.

Where did she go?

[ChildsVOICE]

If the forensics are back and do not point to the boy, I wonder if Carlyon will attempt to find out who, if anyone, they point to, or if he will just leave the case unsolved with suspicion still surrounding the boy?

I worry about that. I hope there can be some resolution for this child.

What I am equally concerned about is that just that in the hour or so with the police, whom the boy trusted to tell him the truth and who lied to the boy saying that TR told someone on the phone and that they had a witness...I worried that the boy may actually believe he did commit the murders. I'm worried that the police implanted a false memory which can so easily happen under these circumstances. It really doesn't take much. If the boy had blocked out anything he may have witnessed and had any memory loss of that time period and if he tried to understand what happened he may have just accepted what the police was telling him.

I really hope this did not occur. It would be just as tragic to let this poor kid think he did it.

Mind you...I do NOT have any reason to believe he is actually thinking this. This is just a concern of my own. :ohmy:

[muska]

Where did she go?

I saw banned by her name in the links. I can't imagine why.

[Jacobtk]

http://www.cofad1.state.az.us/opinionfiles/JV/JV050101.pdf

Interesting. Once you get through all the legal-speak, the ruling essentially states that it does not matter if a child can understand the idea of a trial, court, judge or lawyer, but that a child must be able to actively participate in the proceedings. If the child cannot, he is to be found incompetent. This makes me all the more interested in what the state's expert will say and how he will defend finding the boy competent or incompetent, but restorable (I assume that is what the state's expert will submit).

[romansc]

Don't think the mom needs help with all the paid interviews, etc.

[JusticeDawg©]

Interesting. Once you get through all the legal-speak, the ruling essentially states that it does not matter if a child can understand the idea of a trial, court, judge or lawyer, but that a child must be able to actively participate in the proceedings. If the child cannot, he is to be found incompetent. This makes me all the more interested in what the state's expert will say and how he will defend finding the boy competent or incompetent, but restorable (I assume that is what the state's expert will submit).

Exactly. :wink:

[mrrogers]

Not only begged, but went over the judges head when he didn't get what he wanted.

hearing to set motion of dismissal set for the 29th
all we can hope for now is a dismissal with preduice:scared::scared:

[JusticeDawg©]

Don't think the mom needs help with all the paid interviews, etc.

What paid interviews?

Tiffany, is that you?

[romansc]

This website has so much misinformation, it's funny.
The boy did the crime.

Don't have a lot of time to look at all the posts but as I see inaccuracies, I'll try to answer them.

1. NAPA is the only store in St. Johns that sells insulated pants as it gets cold out at the power plant.. (insulated coveralls).

[muska]

Don't think the mom needs help with all the paid interviews, etc.

She only did one interview and didn't get paid.

[Jacobtk]

What I am equally concerned about is
that just that in the hour or so with the police, whom the boy trusted to tell him the truth and who lied to the boy saying that TR told someone on the phone and that they had a witness...I worried that the boy may actually believe he did commit the murders. I'm worried that the police implanted a false memory which can so easily happen under these circumstances. It really doesn't take much.

I have witnessed that. One of my foster brothers plead guilty to a crime he did not commit, served the time, attended the treatment and had to register until he was 18. When the girl he claimed he hurt recanted two years ago, he refused to acknowledge it. He had always been a risk to himself and attempted suicide several times. This did not help and while he was in the hospital he hung himself. The way he would talk about himself was disturbing. He absolutely believed he did it even when what he was accused of doing would have left scars on the girl and she had none.

[JusticeDawg©]

This website has so much misinformation, it's funny.
The boy did the crime.

Don't have a lot of time to look at all the posts but as I see inaccuracies, I'll try to answer them.

1. NAPA is the only store in St. Johns that sells insulated pants as it gets cold out at the power plant.. (insulated coveralls).

You have the ballistics report? Chipmunk used eh?

[GentleBreeze]

I was rereading Hogle's report and this hit me:
"There are many .22 caliber long rifle bullets available. Many of these do not have the velocity to break the speed of sound (1129 ft/s) and if this were the case with the bullets fired from the suspect firearm it would not produce the air piercing crade that faster bullets would, further quieting the report and decreasing the distance the shots could be heard from. I am unsure of the type and grain of bullets fired from the rifle to know for a surety if this were the case in this instance, but could be a possible reason why more of the shots fired during the Romero! Romans homicide were not heard"

1-there are many .22 caliber long rifle bullets available.

Couldn't anybody have access to these type bullets?

2-two references to the boy's gun.
No ballistics report yet. Seems to me to have been a rush to judgment that the boy's rifle was in fact the murder weapon. No proof provided to suspect that particular rifle, aside from it being in the house.

Yes, anyone can buy.22 bullets. What they will look at though, is to see if the bullet casings found, have the same strike location on each of them from the firing pin of the suspected murder weapon where it hits the casing when fired each time.

They will fire a live .22 bullet or bullets, from the suspected gun in order to get the strike pattern to compare them to the spent casings found at the scene.

I am not sure if the ballistic test is back or not. They may be but it seems the court is awfully quiet on both sides, except for the ongoing issue on the dismissal on count one and the competency hearing.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

What paid interviews?

Tiffany, is that you?

:biggrin: They're baaaack!

[romansc]

2. I believe the step mom allowed the interview because she wanted to catch the "at large" killers, not to incriminate the boy.

[muska]

This website has so much misinformation, it's funny.
The boy did the crime.

Don't have a lot of time to look at all the posts but as I see inaccuracies, I'll try to answer them.

1. NAPA is the only store in St. Johns that sells insulated pants as it gets cold out at the power plant.. (insulated coveralls).

So what makes you so sure?

[Hawk]

You have the ballistics report? Chipmunk used eh?

As it stands right now with the two upcoming hearings, that information may never be publicly known.
(29 Jan; motion to dismiss count #1, Denied. 6 Feb; Defendant found incompetent and can't be rehabilitated in the allowed time.)

Is that right?

[JusticeDawg©]

So what makes you so sure?

They have nothing. No proven report of what gun was used, no fingerprints on casings, nothing. Just trolling around.:thumbdown:

[ChildsVOICE]

NAPA sells work clothes and safety gear, in addition to car and truck parts. It may be the only place in St. Johns to get that sort of thing, I don't know.

Don't men usually like to buy that kind of stuff for themselves? My ex-husband (construction worker) and all his construction worker friends always liked to pick out and order their own because of fit, comfort, color, work requirements, ect. ?

Of course, it wouldn't be too unusual for a wife to buy her hubby's things.

Question: (you may have already answered)

What was Tiff buying at the grocery store?
I thought I read a post that the first time she was buying donuts for work the next day. Is this correct/fact?
If so, why would she be buying donuts in the p.m. of one day for the a.m. the next day to take to work? Isn't the whole reason of taking donuts to work is to impress the co-workers & boss? and to just make a good gesture? Who buys donuts in the p.m. to take to work the next day when they know they are going to be stale by the next day?
Also, didn't she work at a physical therapist office? My PT hates it when the co-workers bring in junk food because they are all exercise junkies and they talk about how many workout exercises they'll have to do.

Did she make a second trip to get spagetti for dinner?

If I'm wrong on these facts, let me know. I've got too many docs to sort through.

[romansc]

The defense was smart getting Cady out of Flagstaff. He's honest, thorough, respected, professional, and smart. If he says the boy is incompetent, the boy is incompetent. How the prosecution could come up with any other result would be baffling.

[JusticeDawg©]

The defense was smart getting Cady out of Flagstaff. He's honest, thorough, respected, professional, and smart. If he says the boy is incompetent, the boy is incompetent. How the prosecution could come up with any other result would be baffling.

Yes, but you said the boy was guilty. Where is your proof?

[Hawk]

Don't men usually like to buy that kind of stuff for themselves? My ex-.

I think you have it pretty much right.
St. Johns is such a tiny town in a very remote area I don't know how often they get fresh donuts. I also don't know if there is more than one real grocery store there.
She did make a separate trip to the same store for her dinner groceries, I believe,

[romansc]

the insulated work pants come in one color. Not a lot of options there. I would have my wife buy my insulated coveralls as well. After all she knows what I wear.

[romansc]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

[mrrogers]

Don't think the mom needs help with all the paid interviews, etc.

hopefully shes breaking even with the appearance fees and expenses:smile::smile:

[FDInLaw]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.Did you hear this from the neighbors??? Police??? Do you have a link???

[muska]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

If that's your only reason to think he's guilty......do a quick google search of Marty Tankleff and spend a little time reading his story. Charged at 17 for his parents murder, the police chose him right off the bat as their prime suspect when he showed little emotion at the murder scene. Unfortunatley for him, he served 17 years before police admitted they were mistaken.

[JusticeDawg©]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

No guilt needed if you are not guilty.

[GentleBreeze]

How would that information be disseminated? And by whom?

I really dont know. I have never seen a case like this transpire.

Maybe leaks? Who knows? But I sure would like to know at least if the chipmunk gun was used and what evidence they found when testing for strike firing pin patterns on the casings found.

imo

[TaraCrazyHair]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

Shock?

Fits the same pattern

[muska]

No guilt needed if you are not guilty.

Good point! If you'd just found the men, you could be in shock. But if you'd actually been the shooter, seems you'd be a little more agitated.

[JusticeDawg©]

Ok, I get it. If you don't cry and you watch TV, you are GUILTY!!

Take him to the Gallows!!!

Case over.

[Hawk]

I really dont know. I have never seen a case like this transpire.

Maybe leaks? Who knows? But I sure would like to know at least if the chipmunk gun was used and what evidence they found when testing for strike firing pin patterns on the casings found.

imo

I've been arguing for three months that the firing pin/casing comparisons is the simplest lab work needed and could have been done in less than an hour. You may need a state certified lab tech to verify it but anyone with a soft jawed vise and a microscope can look for a match. It isn't complicated unless the marks are extremely close.
Had they done those tests early on (a day or so after the murders) both prosecution and defence could have planned their strategies better.

[GentleBreeze]

Hawk, maybe after the hearing on the 29th they will have several document dumps on the Apache Court site.

Hopefully it will include another supplemental discovery from the State.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

Ok, I get it. If you don't cry and you watch TV, you are GUILTY!!

Take him to the Gallows!!!

Case over.


If was in a shocked state .. tears will not keep coming and the TV was probably his comfort zone

If he had just brutally shot two grown men to death, it seems he would have been wired up and agitated

Way to young to have any control over his emotional state

[GentleBreeze]

I've been arguing for three months that the firing pin/casing comparisons is the simplest lab work needed and could have been done in less than an hour. You may need a state certified lab tech to verify it but anyone with a soft jawed vise and a microscope can look for a match. It isn't complicated unless the marks are extremely close.
Had they done those tests early on (a day or so after the murders) both prosecution and defense could have planned their strategies better.

Yes, it is a very simple technique.

Do you think they may have sent the casings off looking for fingerprints first before they did firing pin/casing.

Maybe it will be mentioned in the 29th hearing. Wood should be screaming if it hasn't come back yet and we will have the transcripts of the hearing.

imoo

[JusticeDawg©]

If was in a shocked state .. tears will not keep coming and the TV was probably his comfort zone

If he had just brutally shot two grown men to death, it seems he would have been wired up and agitated

Way to young to have any control over his emotional state

My thoughts Exactly.:wink:

[mrrogers]

As it stands right now with the two upcoming hearings, that information may never be publicly known.
(29 Jan; motion to dismiss count #1, Denied. 6 Feb; Defendant found incompetent and can't be rehabilitated in the allowed time.)

Is that right?


i hope your right hawk it scares me hes even going to hear it

[PensiveOne]

The defense was smart getting Cady out of Flagstaff. He's honest, thorough, respected, professional, and smart. If he says the boy is incompetent, the boy is incompetent. How the prosecution could come up with any other result would be baffling.

That's true. Don't you wonder if these experts just agree with whomever pays them? If an expert says this boy is competent, then I would have to wonder where he got his psych degree.

[ChildsVOICE]

Oh God the crazies are out.

I JUST SPIT SOFT DRINK ON MY SCREEN!!!!!:w00t::lol::lol:

[Jacobtk]

Wood should be screaming if it hasn't come back yet and we will have the transcripts of the hearing.

Brewer did complain about the release of information at the last hearing, specifically information being released to the public (I assume the partial ballistics report) before being sent to the attorneys.

[PensiveOne]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

He was in shock. Why is that such a hard concept for some people to understand?

[FDInLaw]

Question. . . I read in an article that the father and step-mom had only been married for a few months. If this is so, it seems strange to me that she was spanking him already. Was she doing this before the wedding too???

With the hubby dead, what was the new wife left (if anything)?

Trying to catch up here. . .

[Hawk]

Yes, it is a very simple technique.

Do you think they may have sent the casings off looking for fingerprints first before they did firing pin/casing.

Maybe it will be mentioned in the 29th hearing. Wood should be screaming if it hasn't come back yet and we will have the transcripts of the hearing.

imoo

I hope so. If the evidence goes against the boy I suppose Mr. Carlyon would want the world to know. It would put more pressure on Judge Roca for the 6 Feb. competency hearing.
But, of course, it'd have the opposite effect if the evidence is exculpatory. If that's the case Mr. Carlyon might not release it.
Maybe Mr. Brewer will bring it up Thursday and force the issue then, like you say, it'll be a matter of public record and included in the transcript.

[JusticeDawg©]

I hope so. If the evidence goes against the boy I suppose Mr. Carlyon would want the world to know. It would put more pressure on Judge Roca for the 6 Feb. competency hearing.
But, of course, it'd have the opposite effect if the evidence is exculpatory. If that's the case Mr. Carlyon might not release it.
Maybe Mr. Brewer will bring it up Thursday and force the issue then, like you say, it'll be a matter of public record and included in the transcript.

If ballistics matched, it would have been plastered all over the net by now. :wink:

[muska]

Possible reactions to trauma/signs of shock - disbelief, numbness, denial, not aknowledging that something very stressful has happened, appearing to be on "auto-pilot," delayed emotional response, trouble responding to the environment, stunned

[Hawk]

If ballistics matched, it would have been plastered all over the net by now. :wink:

I'd think so, too. I'm wondering if they even have the reports yet. How in the h... could they not have?????

[Jacobtk]

If ballistics matched, it would have been plastered all over the net by now. :wink:

I agree. After all, Carlyon released an incomplete ballistics report.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I sure wish I knew more about guns but since i hate them, i have very limited knowledge and count on others to help me out

If this Chipmunk (kid gun) was the one used in the murders .. it only loads one shell at a time right?

So after CR fired the first shot .. in the time it took him to reload for the second shot .. a grown man would have been able to confront him, try to get the gun away .. etc ..

And that man being his father would have super scared the boy so his hands would have been so shaky and almost no control there

Please explain how he was able to keep shooting, reloading, shooting, reloading .. a little boy of eight barely standing 4 foot tall against grown men of 5'7 - 5'9, 180 - 200 at least pounds?


I stand 5'4, weigh 100 lbs soaking wet and still can take my eight year old grandson in a play wrestling match and he is 4'10" and weighs 85 pounds (Close match though .. he is tough!)

and I am weak!!

Not afraid to admit it

But I am trying to picture the murder scene of this case with grown men and one little boy with basically a toy rifle

[ChildsVOICE]

Don't know anything about the grocery store but the police ruled her out as a supect...but you're all missing the point...the boy did it. After the police took the boy next door, he didnt cry, he was emotionless and watched tv as if nothing had happened. No guilt with that boy.

The following day the boy was still talking about his dad in the PRESENT TENSE amongst everything else he was talking about was in the past tense.

Psychology is much more complex than what the boy may have been exhibiting just hours after a traumatic event.

Google Post "Traumatic Stress Disorder/Syndrome".

Google "Symptoms of Shock in victims of traumatic crime".

When the most wonderful old man in my world died, my great and beloved Great Grandfather the most special man in my life, and my mother sat me and my brothers down in the living room and made the announcement, I looked around the room and noticed that the sun was shining brillantly on a wonderful and lovely warm Sunday morning.

I smiled. My mother was shocked and hurtfully asked "Why are you smiling?!"

then, trying to show stength among my fellow family members who were very much destraught, LATER and when I was ALONE...
I cried and grieved.

and I have held him dearly in my heart and in my memory ever since.

I was 9 years old.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Possible reactions to trauma/signs of shock - disbelief, numbness, denial, not aknowledging that something very stressful has happened, appearing to be on "auto-pilot," delayed emotional response, trouble responding to the environment, stunned


Exactly

To an eight year old boy -- he turns to Spongebob

Comfort zone

[Hawk]

I agree. After all, Carlyon released an incomplete ballistics report.

But if the ballistics report showed that either the Chipmunk wasn't used in the murders, or that more than one gun was used and Mr. Brewer knows the information, would he not make a 'Motion to Dismiss'?

[TaraCrazyHair]

The following day the boy was still talking about his dad in the PRESENT TENSE amongst everything else he was talking about was in the past tense.

Psychology is much more complex than what the boy may have been exhibiting just hours after a traumatic event.

Google Post "Traumatic Stress Disorder/Syndrome".

Google "Symptoms of Shock in victims of traumatic crime".

When the most wonderful old man in my world died, my great and beloved Great Grandfather the most special man in my life, and my mother sat me and my brothers down in the living room and made the announcement, I looked around the room and noticed that the sun was shining brillantly on a wonderful and lovely warm Sunday morning.

I smiled. My mother was shocked and hurtfully asked "Why are you smiling?!"

then, trying to show stength among my fellow family members who were very much destraught, LATER and when I was ALONE...
I cried and grieved.

and I have held him dearly in my heart and in my memory ever since.

I was 9 years old.
I still remember ...


I was 11 when my dad walked in the room, sat all five of us down and said our Mom had died

No idea it was coming (she had a heart attack)

I asked if i could still go to the movies and my brother who was 5 said OK .. can i back and play now

I will never forget it ... my older sister cried and other than that i have lost memory

Kids are not adults with adult emotions

:sad:

(My dad said no to my movie and yes to my brother going to play)

I do remember being very upset about that .. but I did not shoot him

[Hawk]

Exactly

To an eight year old boy -- he turns to Spongebob

Comfort zone

Or wrestles with his grandma!

[Jacobtk]

But if the ballistics report showed that either the Chipmunk wasn't used in the murders, or that more than one gun was used and Mr. Brewer knows the information, would he not make a 'Motion to Dismiss'?

Technically, it would not exonerate the boy. Scott Peterson is sitting on death row with no physical evidence tying him to the crime. Brewer could write the motion, but deciding on the veracity of evidence is the job of the jury/ bench trial judge, so it would be denied.

[TaraCrazyHair]

A remorseless murderer is the scariest kind.

Is a boy his age capable of remorse?

Most likely not

They forget to feed the goldfish .. the goldfish dies .. they cry for a minute, have a "funeral' and it is off to the baseball game


Heck... most adults are incapable of showing remorse

[TaraCrazyHair]

Or wrestles with his grandma!

If that was his comfort zone .. so be it!

Snarkiness observed and smiled at

(:

[PensiveOne]

Don't you guys think that Judge Roca will just deny the motion to dismiss one of the murder charges? Also, if Brewer hasn't been given the rest of the evidence yet...then he might make his motion to dismiss after he gets it, if the ballistics don't match what else would they have? I personally wouldn't be satisfied to have him ruled imcompetent if there is no evidence to prove he did it.

[GentleBreeze]

the thing I was trying to point out is that the ballistics report wasn't back yet when they arrested the boy. Those shell casings could have come from anywhere. The bullets could have come from anyone. They had no proof the boy did anything. All they had at the time they arrested him was a coerced confession.

I am not sure that JR just took the confession only. I think the time line is just as damning or more so. Maybe JR thought there was probable cause to arrest him because JR thought there was no time for anyone else to do this but him.

Was the confession played in the probable cause hearing? I have forgotten.

imoo

[Hawk]

Technically, it would not exonerate the boy. Scott Peterson is sitting on death row with no physical evidence tying him to the crime. Brewer could write the motion, but deciding on the veracity of evidence is the job of the jury/ bench trial judge, so it would be denied.

As usual, I don't understand.
If the state loses it's main evidence (the Chipmunk) there isn't a case against him. Why wouldn't the judge dismiss?
Without proof that 'his' gun was the murder weapon they have nothing else.

Just asking.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Very good point JusticeDawg. The boy probably didn't show any emotion at that time because he has to have time to process what happened to his dad. He did cry when Tiffany came home and went to her for comfort.

That is the one thing that surprises me about this case

She did the spankings, right?

So the "count" would be against her?

Did he really hate her?

Or in time of pain .. was she still a comfort?

A bit confused on that

A child who just murdered his father to spite his stepmother who was truly a "sick" child would have smirked at her

"See what I just did? What are you going to do now" type thing


So none of it makes any sense!

[GentleBreeze]

All I ever wanted was to learn the TRUTH.

I'll be mighty pissed if we don't find out!:cursing:

That is all I want to know too.

[TaraCrazyHair]

A child incapable of genuine remorse would scare me.

Ha

Obviously you don't have children

[Jacobtk]

As usual, I don't understand.
If the state loses it's main evidence (the Chipmunk) there isn't a case against him. Why wouldn't the judge dismiss?
Without proof that 'his' gun was the murder weapon they have nothing else.

Just asking.

Legally, it does not matter. They just need to be able to reasonably suggest the boy committed the act and then present circumstantial evidence supporting that claim. The gunpowder residue and the print on the box of bullets is sufficient, although very weak. The judge could and probably would dismiss the case with that kind of weak evidence. In fact, if this were an adult case and the state agreed to throw out the confession, most judges would have dismissed the case by now.

[FDInLaw]

That is the one thing that surprises me about this case

She did the spankings, right?

So the "count" would be against her?

Did he really hate her?

Or in time of pain .. was she still a comfort?

A bit confused on that

A child who just murdered his father to spite his stepmother who was truly a "sick" child would have smirked at her

"See what I just did? What are you going to do now" type thing


So none of it makes any sense!The other side to the coin. . . what kind of “sick” family attempts to pin a murder on a child??? There is more than one possibility here, and LE should have considered more individuals as persons of interest and/or suspects from the beginning IMO.

A number of people need to be checked out better. I'm just saying. . .

[GentleBreeze]

Brewer did complain about the release of information at the last hearing, specifically information being released to the public (I assume the partial ballistics report) before being sent to the attorneys.

I was talking about if he has yet to receive certain discovery he will be screaming it to the roof top in the hearing. It may give us a glimpse of what he doesn't have and what he has received already imo.

I did notice in the Jan. 6th hearing the defense attorneys then weren't demanding discovery as much except they wanted the transcript on one of the officers that the DA had recently interviewed, iirc.

imoo

[Hawk]

Legally, it does not matter. They just need to be able to reasonably suggest the boy committed the act and then present circumstantial evidence supporting that claim. The gunpowder residue and the print on the box of bullets is sufficient, although very weak. The judge could and probably would dismiss the case with that kind of weak evidence. In fact, if this were an adult case and the state agreed to throw out the confession, most judges would have dismissed the case by now.

Thank you! Finally some legal stuff that makes sense.
So the judge has the authority to dismiss a case without the state's approval?

[TaraCrazyHair]

The other side to the coin. . . what kind of “sick” family attempts to pin a murder on a child??? There is more than one possibility here, and LE should have considered more individuals as persons of interest and/or suspects from the beginning IMO.

A number of people need to be checked out better. I'm just saying. . .


I feel they ruled others too quickly

And it should come to bite them in the butt

As for pinning it on a child .. those "remorseful" adults would know it would only be a few years out of his life compared to life or the DP for them

[Jacobtk]

I was talking about if he has yet to receive certain discovery he will be screaming it to the roof top in the hearing. It may give us a glimpse of what he doesn't have and what he has received already

Brewer has not requested forensic evidence since the beginning of December. Carlyon stated that it would take until the end of January for the evidence to get back. Brewer has, however, requested the reports Carlyon included in his disclosures that were not given to him.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Who knows what his real "motive" was?

His biological mom just left, perhaps he simply wanted to go live with her and saw this as his only option?

Maybe Vince demanded she spank him? Maybe the constant arguments were over Vince's 'harsh" discipline?

Maybe this child felt angry and violated after being spanked by his step-mother and blamed his dad? Can you imagine if it was a bare bottom spanking how having Tiffany administer it could effect him? Some children can handle spankings and others become enraged by it.

The typical kid runs away ...

What would make this one commit double murder?

[Jacobtk]

Thank you! Finally some legal stuff that makes sense.
So the judge has the authority to dismiss a case without the state's approval?

Yes, but he needs a reason to do so. He cannot simply dismiss the case. Technically he could, but it would be appealed.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Wrong!

I just don't sell mine short.

Then you have perfect children

Something nobody else has!

Count your lucky stars

You have been blessed!

(:

I should have been so lucky, lol

[Hawk]

The typical kid runs away ...

What would make this one commit double murder?

Run away? Where is an 8 year old, living in literally the 'middle' of nowhere' going to run to?

The only place he could go was grandma's house. That would be a short retreat.

[GentleBreeze]

But if the DA presented evidence that was not thoroughly investigated, then the judge could have been duped to thinking there was probable cause.

Duped? What does that have to do with Judge Roca knowing the time line when all of this was to have happened?

imoo

[PensiveOne]

WHEN did the police rule her out????????

BEFORE or AFTER the "confession"?:smile:

Well, of course they ruled her out...she cried, remember? So if any of you ever walk in on a murder, or just find a body, just remember you must cry, right away. Otherwise, you will be automatically assumed to be the guilty one! I am being fecicous, but that is a pretty scary way to determine guilt:angry:

[ChildsVOICE]

Very good point JusticeDawg. The boy probably didn't show any emotion at that time because he has to have time to process what happened to his dad. He did cry when Tiffany came home and went to her for comfort.

And he "cried for like 30 minutes just laying there right by him, just crying" at the actual time he found his father.

(I used his words. I think his 30 minutes was not actual 30 minutes....just seemed like it. Then got the heck out of there not even thinking about using his own cell...just wanting to get the heck out of there ASAP. After all, no time for crying got to get help for dad and what if "the bad guys come back"?)

[Perplexed1]

Ok, I get it. If you don't cry and you watch TV, you are GUILTY!!

Take him to the Gallows!!!

Case over.

I imagine this was a traumatic household. The little boy's emotions are stretched thin.

[Perplexed1]

I imagine this was a traumatic household. The little boy's emotions are stretched thin.

The cell is probably very peaceful.

[JusticeDawg©]

I was talking about if he has yet to receive certain discovery he will be screaming it to the roof top in the hearing. It may give us a glimpse of what he doesn't have and what he has received already imo.

I did notice in the Jan. 6th hearing the defense attorneys then weren't demanding discovery as much except they wanted the transcript on one of the officers that the DA had recently interviewed, iirc.

imoo

You mean Brewer wanting a better quality tape of the "turmoil" between two officers on this case?

[JusticeDawg©]

The cell is probably very peaceful.

He did tell his mom that Tiffany and VR fought a lot.

[GentleBreeze]

Well, of course they ruled her out...she cried, remember? So if any of you ever walk in on a murder, or just find a body, just remember you must cry, right away. Otherwise, you will be automatically assumed to be the guilty one! I am being fecicous, but that is a pretty scary way to determine guilt:angry:

I have no idea if this boy was grieving or in shock but he sure covered it very well when he was interviewed about 19 hours after the murders. I didn't see any remorse or regret when he talked about his dad.

He sure knew his dad was dead and never coming back. He told one of the officers that had a cell phone, that his dad had one like it but he wasn't going to be needing it because he wasn't coming back. (paraphrasing)

He seemed very engaged and talkative.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

You mean Brewer wanting a better quality tape of the "turmoil" between two officers on this case?

No, this was wanting a transcript of an interview that Carylon had done with one of the officers. I believe it was a man, iirc.

imoo

[Perplexed1]

He did tell his mom that Tiffany and VR fought a lot.

Plus there is a boarder in the house, that brought a lot of baggage with him. Plus there were fights at the bar. sounds like a 'wonderful world'.:huh:

[TaraCrazyHair]

I am sorry you weren't as blessed.

I only have the one, he's quite capable of remorse and yes I am absolutely blessed and more thankful than you'll ever know.


How do you define remorse?

True remorse

Crying because caught?

or depressed because they really messed up and want to change it?

Does your child seem unable to function in everyday activity because the burden is more than they can bear?

Does he/she cry themself to sleep everynight?

Have they found God?

Define your child's remorse compared to the average adult's remorse and tell me what you see?

We are not talking stealing a cookie or shoplifting

We are talking cold blooded murder


This poor child was so worried about juvie yet how did he know about juvie?

Who told him what juvie even was?

:confused:

If he was street smart... he would not have used the term juvie

He would have said jail or prison

[GentleBreeze]

I found him to be a very bright child. He was articulate and outgoing.

I was more than a little taken back by how easily the lies flowed from his lips. I saw him cry only for himself.

I was amazed actually with how articulate he was when he was describing the inside of the house.

imoo

[muska]

That is the one thing that surprises me about this case

She did the spankings, right?

So the "count" would be against her?

Did he really hate her?

Or in time of pain .. was she still a comfort?

A bit confused on that

A child who just murdered his father to spite his stepmother who was truly a "sick" child would have smirked at her

"See what I just did? What are you going to do now" type thing


So none of it makes any sense!

If he had just shot these men, what would have made him want to call Tiffany? It seems like he would want to avoid her for as long as possible.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I found him to be a very bright child. He was articulate and outgoing.

I was more than a little taken back by how easily the lies flowed from his lips. I saw him cry only for himself.

Ok

I am convinced

You are here only to stir up and and not actually cook

There is no way you felt that boy was lying easily

No freaking way

????????????????????????????????????????????

[PensiveOne]

I have no idea if this boy was grieving or in shock but he sure covered it very well when he was interviewed about 19 hours after the murders. I didn't see any remorse or regret when he talked about his dad.

He sure knew his dad was dead and never coming back. He told one of the officers that had a cell phone, that his dad had one like it but he wasn't going to be needing it because he wasn't coming back. (paraphrasing)

He seemed very engaged and talkative.

imoo

He thought he was there to help find whoever killed his dad. Little boys don't cry in front of people. Have you ever watched a little league game where they get hit with the ball. They will go hide and bury their faces before they cry in front of somebody. That doesn't prove he did anything. We couldn't see his face, but there were several times when his voice is shaky and he is incredulous when they first accuse him. That whole bit about the cell phone conversation has never been substantiated. We don't know exactly what was said or how the conversation came about.

Maybe everything you are saying is true. I don't know, but I just don't see it that way. It's just a bungled mess now.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I was amazed actually with how articulate he was when he was describing the inside of the house.

imoo


Rehearsed was my opinion

[muska]

I was amazed actually with how articulate he was when he was describing the inside of the house.

imoo

Really? I know others have suggested that he seemed articulate, but I didn't find him particularly so. I thought he sounded like a nice, friendly little kid, more out-going than typical but not more verbal than average. He pretty much rambled wherever they wanted him to go. I have had third grade kids in class who would, I'm pretty sure, have kept Officers Neckel and Avila, right on task.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Juvenile detention aka juvie isn't a secret and many kids know about it. Many children have older siblings that fill them in on all sorts of things then armed with new info these kids go to school and inform other children.
It's a small town, he probably even knew where it was located.

To have remorse a person has to have a conscience. My son has come to me when consumed by guilt and told on himself or asked for advice on how to rectify something. He's lost sleep. Hasn't any of yours?

A typical child who had the insight to preplan and murder two men would not assume he was going to juvie

He would assume he was going to prison

They certainly see enough TV

Murder=Prison

But he cried about Juvie

Who told him juvie was all he would see?

Not once did that little boy ask if he was going to jail

If he committed the murders ... he would have asked if he was going to jail because that is where bad people go

Not just my opinion!

[GentleBreeze]

Juvenile detention aka juvie isn't a secret and many kids know about it. Many children have older siblings that fill them in on all sorts of things then armed with new info these kids go to school and inform other children.
It's a small town, he probably even knew where it was located.

To have remorse a person has to have a conscience. My son has come to me when consumed by guilt and told on himself or asked for advice on how to rectify something. He's lost sleep. Hasn't any of yours?

Isn't the juvenile center close to their home? In that small town he had to see it all the time, imo.

Even good kids tell other kids they are going to juvie if they get in trouble. lol It has become a very typical word, used often.

imo

[TaraCrazyHair]

Think what you'd like

The kid was either lying in the beginning or toward the end. I happen to think he was lying at the start.

And to me, he told the truth at the beginning


Then he tried to make the people in charge happy

Adults do it all the time

Why not a child


What about this little child makes you feel he killed these men?

I would really like to know because you seem so sure he was capable of double murder and I see it exactly the opposite

[Hawk]

Isn't the juvenile center close to their home? In that small town he had to see it all the time, imo.

Even good kids tell other kids they are going to juvie if they get in trouble. lol It has become a very typical word, used often.

imo


That term 'juvie' is used on the kids TV networks, from cartoon network to Disney, often. It's very well known to small kids. The juvenile detention center in St. Johns is relatively new and would be obvious to everyone, even though it's very small.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I disagree


Test!

Go out tomorrow and ask any child if he shot somebody what would happen

I will lay my life on the line he will say he is going to jail

Be honest!!!

I will wait for your results

[TaraCrazyHair]

That term 'juvie' is used on the kids TV networks, from cartoon network to Disney, often. It's very well known to small kids. The juvenile detention center in St. Johns is relatively new and would be obvious to everyone, even though it's very small.


Juvie to kids is small time stuff

Running away, stealing a pack of gum etc...

Skipping school

Tell me one child under the age of 13, 14 maybe 15, that will say they are going to juvie for murder

[GentleBreeze]

Test!

Go out tomorrow and ask any child if he shot somebody what would happen

I will lay my life on the line he will say he is going to jail

Be honest!!!

I will wait for your results

I think times have changed and so have words been substituted.

Like Hawk just posted "That term 'juvie' is used on the kids TV networks, from cartoon network to Disney, often. It's very well known to small kids. The juvenile detention center in St. Johns is relatively new and would be obvious to everyone, even though it's very small."

[TaraCrazyHair]

use the search feature.

The timeline, cell phone, ear witness to gun shots, GSR, his gun & where it was found, he coolness during the interview and IMO his first version sounded reheared & detached.



Did you completely miss the fear in his voice?

Towards the end

It is there

That is why I feel he told the truth in the beginning and lied at the end

I am not afraid to admit I am wrong ... I pray I am not

[ChildsVOICE]

IMO...

The boy attended Catholic studies and Catholic church.

He would have been taught that the dead go to a much better place, a place wonderful with streets of gold, Heaven to be with God, a protector and a wonderful being.

The boy did show grief. Several times.

The boy did display fear. Several times.

The adults around him were/are oblivious to it.

The boy was raised in a very strict, Catholic, household where he was one of three males with only one woman.

He was raised in a household with inappropriate developmental expectations for his age.
Examples:
1) left alone for hours, two days per week,
2) left alone with easy access to weapons
3) spanking for simple failure to bring home papers from school
4) grandmother's statements

He was raised in a househould of tough construction workers who, at least one, his own father, was an avid hunter.

How often did they cry?

What example did this child witness to the display of sadness and grief?

He was SURVIVING in a household of turmoil/ routine arguments and fights.

Not to mention what he may have witnessed from TR.
i.e. Talks between VR and TR about staying away from gang involvement, nights out at bar, etc.

One that is SURVIVING in a household learns survival techniques LONG before a tragedy occurs.

If the boy was used to excess discipline he, most likely, was emotionally "shut down" already.

Add the fighting between the step parent and the father.

Add the step mother's comment "What goes on in this house, stays in this house."

All equal to a boy's emotions being SQUASHED on a DAILY basis.

This boy has been TRAINED for a long time, seemingly his entire life, to SQUASH his emotions.

Why should this day be any different? He cried next to his father. He cried when he embraced Tiffany. He probably cried when he "was in the other room sleeping" at the neighbors house. Did he cry himself to sleep? He cuddled his grandmother all night.
One does not need to wale in order to grieve.

He was taught well. He did as he was taught.

"Good boy.":crying:

[TaraCrazyHair]

No offense...but...don't hold your breath!

I did ask mine awhile ago and he said juvie was a jail for kids. He's 11 now...so it really doesn't count.


Maybe it depends on demographics

Here in Ohio .. juvie is a term used for "stupid stuff" like talking back to the teacher or running off or talking back to parents

Kids on the playground here are terrified of jail if they do more than that



My grandson who is eight was terrified of jail because they got called to the principal for using fingers as guns during a game of cops and robbers

and he never said juvie

Was terrified of jail

It ius a strange world our kids are in

Poor things

[TaraCrazyHair]

I hope I am wrong.


I sincerely hope you are too


Even sadder was this boy being being framed by adults

The hell he must be living



Even if he did this crime .. my heart bleeds for him

Far too young

Far far too young for that much hate

[PensiveOne]

It's in the news again. Nothing in here we don't already know, but here is the link. I also saw where the AP is going to cover the hearing on Thursday.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18569777/detail.html

I hope there is a good reporter there.

[GentleBreeze]

IMO...

He was taught well. He did as he was taught.

"Good boy.":crying:


He may have been taught that people go to a better place when they die but I highly doubt that he was taught he was the one to send them there.

And if it comes to pass he did these murders where was he taught to kill human beings?

I haven't heard of anyone in his family doing the same thing he is accused of.

imoo

[shelby77]

IMO...

The boy attended Catholic studies and Catholic church.

He would have been taught that the dead go to a much better place, a place wonderful with streets of gold, Heaven to be with God, a protector and a wonderful being.

The boy did show grief. Several times.

The boy did display fear. Several times.

The adults around him were/are oblivious to it.

The boy was raised in a very strict, Catholic, household where he was one of three males with only one woman.

He was raised in a household with inappropriate developmental expectations for his age.
Examples:
1) left alone for hours, two days per week,
2) left alone with easy access to weapons
3) spanking for simple failure to bring home papers from school
4) grandmother's statements

He was raised in a househould of tough construction workers who, at least one, his own father, was an avid hunter.

How often did they cry?

What example did this child witness to the display of sadness and grief?

He was SURVIVING in a household of turmoil/ routine arguments and fights.

Not to mention what he may have witnessed from TR.
i.e. Talks between VR and TR about staying away from gang involvement, nights out at bar, etc.

One that is SURVIVING in a household learns survival techniques LONG before a tragedy occurs.

If the boy was used to excess discipline he, most likely, was emotionally "shut down" already.

Add the fighting between the step parent and the father.

Add the step mother's comment "What goes on in this house, stays in this house."

All equal to a boy's emotions being SQUASHED on a DAILY basis.

This boy has been TRAINED for a long time, seemingly his entire life, to SQUASH his emotions.

Why should this day be any different? He cried next to his father. He cried when he embraced Tiffany. He probably cried when he "was in the other room sleeping" at the neighbors house. Did he cry himself to sleep? He cuddled his grandmother all night.
One does not need to wale in order to grieve.

He was taught well. He did as he was taught.

"Good boy.":crying:



Excellent post. I think you have just summed up several posters thoughts, not only mine :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

I would have been a wreak too. Odd how this boy was as cool as a cucumber until he realized he was heading off to juvie.

He also covered his head and didn't want anyone to see him. I think he was ashamed. He didn't want the detective in the room that got him to admit it in part...yet when alone with one other LE he didn't recant. After spending some time actually in juvie...he still didn't recant.

The time line puts him right there.

imo

I don't think we know if he has recanted. Perhaps he has to Wood/Brewer. Or to his family.
The time line puts him there though. Everyone knows he found the bodies. And then there was the 'interrogation'.

But probably the worst thing that happened against the boy was when Chief Melnick told the grandma that the boy had been charged. She became very upset and said "If any kid is capable of doing this it's (the boy). Grandpa agreed.
Of course she also said that she knew something like this would happen because "They were too hard on ..(the boy). I think that was what Chief Melnick went on more than anything else, in addition to the 'confession'.
And later a CPS worker claimed that he asked her, "Don't you want to know why I did it?"

[Hawk]

Juvie to kids is small time stuff

Running away, stealing a pack of gum etc...

Skipping school

Tell me one child under the age of 13, 14 maybe 15, that will say they are going to juvie for murder

I don't know any kids that are accused of murder.

[GentleBreeze]

I don't know any kids that are accused of murder.

Thank God, I don't know any either and hope I never run across one either.


imoo

[shelby77]

I think he did as he was taught when he fired those last bullets into those men so "they wouldn't suffer" IMO he didn't stop firing until they stopped shaking. His words....not mine.

I wouldn't have left mine home alone at 8 and certainly not with access to all those weapons and ammo. I just don't see it as some sort of perfect storm. Two men are dead and I don't think they in any way deserved it. I see no evidence that shows me either one had it coming. This was not some sort of accident. This was deliberate, blaming the victims is way out of line. IMO


Please point out to me where the victims were blamed in this post?? The point of the post was in reference to the boys emotional state after the crime. I'm just not seeing how you managed to twist it into CV blaming the victims here....:ohmy:

[TaraCrazyHair]

I don't know any kids that are accused of murder.


New one for you huh?

How many of their friends are either?

It is called the power of TV

Kids know what murder is

They know murder means jail/prison


But convos among kids and juvie does not include murder

That is my point

Not once did CR say he was going to jail

He was scared to death of going to juvie


Why didnt he ask if he was going to jail if he just murdered two people?

Not sure if I am making myself clear .. but that is a HUGE factor for me in his innocence

[GentleBreeze]

Please point out to me where the victims were blamed in this post?? The point of the post was in reference to the boys emotional state after the crime. I'm just not seeing how you managed to twist it into CV blaming the victims here....:ohmy:

You think what she wrote was nice and by the way how do we know any of that is remotely true. This info can't be coming from Eryn because she didn't even live in the house with this boy.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

I think he did as he was taught when he fired those last bullets into those men so "they wouldn't suffer" IMO he didn't stop firing until they stopped shaking. His words....not mine.

I wouldn't have left mine home alone at 8 and certainly not with access to all those weapons and ammo. I just don't see it as some sort of perfect storm. Two men are dead and I don't think they in any way deserved it. I see no evidence that shows me either one had it coming. This was not some sort of accident. This was deliberate, blaming the victims is way out of line. IMO


The shaking came from his hunting training

Never leave an injured animal to die slowly


I dont hunt and I hate guns but even I know that

Put them out of misery

[Hawk]

New one for you huh?

How many of their friends are either?

It is called the power of TV

Kids know what murder is

They know murder means jail/prison


But convos among kids and juvie does not include murder

That is my point

Not once did CR say he was going to jail

He was scared to death of going to juvie


Why didnt he ask if he was going to jail if he just murdered two people?

Not sure if I am making myself clear .. but that is a HUGE factor for me in his innocence

I'm sorry, but I think you are taking juvenile terminology, and slang, way too serious. The term is used on kids TV shows and movies every day.
Guess I'm missing the point, but what is the significance of the boy saying 'juvie' rather than jail. They are the same thing. Steel bars are steel bars. You could call it a resort but it's still jail.
Just my opinion.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Going to bed

I love the debate .. both sides


What is amazing to me is how over 200 people can be on the Casey Anthony thread when that is pretty much a done deal yet nobody can be bothered to be on this case which is so far from a from done deal

A pyscho chick kills her kid which happens every hour of every day is more important than an eight year old boy accused of killing his dad and another man

Baffles me

Are we too easy on murder these days or what?

Wow!

[Hawk]

EXACTLY. I don't think anyone was interviewed in such an intimidating way. In EVERY other situation LE went to them. Work, home, park, parking lot, etc...but not this boy. Recorded with three uniformed and armed police officers.

Grandpa, who I feel is his next of kin after Eryn, refused to let LE talk to the boy. He insisted on a psychologist, but they overstepped and interrogated the boy anyway.
Is that legal?

[ChildsVOICE]

Anybody out there want to talk about the facts?

I need somebody's expert/knowledgable input on the handguns that were supposed to be in TR's truck.

In Cdr.James A. Womack, A50 report:

Mark Mercer tells him that he thinks TR's handguns were:

a 44 magnum cylinder pistol

a 40 caliber semi-automatic pistol (he thinks)

(Mark had previous law enforcement experience.)

BUT

Best Friend, DANA told Womack he thought:

a 357 magnum, "maybe"



Questions: (maybe stupid questions but humor me)

What type bullets would these use? any use .22 shells?

How many rounds?

Copper coated?


A friend of mine thinks the 357 mag could use .22 caliber with the capacity for six rounds in the revolver. Is this true?

I've looked it up on-line but its all garbalie goo to me.

Wonder if the police ever did a run on TR's gun ownership records?

If so, wonder which handguns he owned? Wonder if they found the other one? Wonder if someone else has it now?

[Hawk]

Going to bed

I love the debate .. both sides


What is amazing to me is how over 200 people can be on the Casey Anthony thread when that is pretty much a done deal yet nobody can be bothered to be on this case which is so far from a from done deal

A pyscho chick kills her kid which happens every hour of every day is more important than an eight year old boy accused of killing his dad and another man

Baffles me

Are we too easy on murder these days or what?

Wow!

I agree 100%.

Sleep well.

[GentleBreeze]

A friend of mine thinks the 357 mag could use .22 caliber with the capacity for six rounds in the revolver. Is this true? (ChildsVoice)

No that is not true. I have a 357 mag.. You can use 38 caliber bullets in it, but not .22s.

imo

[shelby77]

You think what she wrote was nice and by the way how do we know any of that is remotely true. This info can't be coming from Eryn because she didn't even live in the house with this boy.

imoo

Umm, let's see how do we know it is remotely true...
Are you disputing that he grew up in a Catholic household?
Or that he lived in a house w/ 3 males and 1 woman?
That is dad was a construction worker?
That he was left home alone?
With access to guns and ammo?
That he was spanked over school papers?
His grandmothers statements?

Yup, I see lots of facts in that post, for sure.

She's discussing for the various reasons the boy may not be expressing his grief to everybodys liking for crying out loud.

Did you even read the post that is being discussed?? Or maybe you meant to respond to a different one???

Please, point out the blame, that was the question that you responded to after all.

Yea that what's I expect anyway, twist it around and don't answer.

[Hawk]

Anybody out there want to talk about the facts?

I need somebody's expert/knowledgable input on the handguns that were supposed to be in TR's truck.

In Cdr.James A. Womack, A50 report:

Mark Mercer tells him that he thinks TR's handguns were:

a 44 magnum cylinder pistol

a 40 caliber semi-automatic pistol (he thinks)

(Mark had previous law enforcement experience.)

BUT

Best Friend, DANA told Womack he thought:

a 357 magnum, "maybe"



Questions: (maybe stupid questions but humor me)

What type bullets would these use? any use .22 shells?

How many rounds?

Copper coated?


A friend of mine thinks the 357 mag could use .22 caliber with the capacity for six rounds in the revolver. Is this true?

I've looked it up on-line but its all garbalie goo to me.

Wonder if the police ever did a run on TR's gun ownership records?

If so, wonder which handguns he owned? Wonder if they found the other one? Wonder if someone else has it now?

A .357 magnum shoots either .38 or .357 centerfire cartridges. A revolver typically holds 6 rounds in it's cylinder. These guns are either single action (pull the hammer back) or double action (just squeeze the trigger.)
Neither of these pistols are compatible with (will shoot) .22s.

The pistol found in Mr. Romans truck is a .45 ACP semi-automatic, which also will not chamber (shoot) .22s.

(I don't know where those hammer figures come from. How do I get rid of them?)

[shelby77]

Opps..I meant to type bashing. sorry!

But now that I think about it....I read many posts from others blaming the victims. IMO It's wrong IMO


Oh ok, you were using CV's post that had nothing to do with bashing the victims to respond to OTHER posters who have done so previously. :rolleyes:

That was pretty much what I thought anway

Thanks for admitting it tho. :biggrin:

[Jacobtk]

Agree...but I believe he used that training to ensure the two men were dead.

If this goes to trial, I am certain Wood and Brewer will put on an expert to ask whether a person would convulse involuntarily from the shots Romans suffered. In fact, I would imagine that the attorneys would go down the line of what was stated in the interrogation and scrutinize every detail, most of which does not even match the crime scene.

As for the boy's reaction, what you stated is typically stated in child sex abuse cases. Defense attorneys will cite a child being animated, articulate, cheerful or unbothered as evidence for the child lying. They contend that it is not possible that a child might hide his pain or keep it to himself. Of course, everyone reacts differently to trauma... except when it is inconvenient to acknowledge that.

[muska]

Going to bed

I love the debate .. both sides


What is amazing to me is how over 200 people can be on the Casey Anthony thread when that is pretty much a done deal yet nobody can be bothered to be on this case which is so far from a from done deal

A pyscho chick kills her kid which happens every hour of every day is more important than an eight year old boy accused of killing his dad and another man

Baffles me

Are we too easy on murder these days or what?

Wow!

Is there any way to ask if any of them might come over here and get involved? If so many are interested in that little child, Caylee, maybe some would at least sign the petition. Any way of asking or is that not allowed?

[ChildsVOICE]

You think what she wrote was nice and by the way how do we know any of that is remotely true. This info can't be coming from Eryn because she didn't even live in the house with this boy.

imoo
Bolding and color change done by me.


Police reports, witness statements, news reports.

Visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

Go To: Right hand column toward bottom:

"The boy 'took his religious faith very seriously,' said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church."

[JusticeDawg©]

IMO...

The boy attended Catholic studies and Catholic church.

He would have been taught that the dead go to a much better place, a place wonderful with streets of gold, Heaven to be with God, a protector and a wonderful being.

The boy did show grief. Several times.

The boy did display fear. Several times.

The adults around him were/are oblivious to it.

The boy was raised in a very strict, Catholic, household where he was one of three males with only one woman.

He was raised in a household with inappropriate developmental expectations for his age.
Examples:
1) left alone for hours, two days per week,
2) left alone with easy access to weapons
3) spanking for simple failure to bring home papers from school
4) grandmother's statements

He was raised in a househould of tough construction workers who, at least one, his own father, was an avid hunter.

How often did they cry?

What example did this child witness to the display of sadness and grief?

He was SURVIVING in a household of turmoil/ routine arguments and fights.

Not to mention what he may have witnessed from TR.
i.e. Talks between VR and TR about staying away from gang involvement, nights out at bar, etc.

One that is SURVIVING in a household learns survival techniques LONG before a tragedy occurs.

If the boy was used to excess discipline he, most likely, was emotionally "shut down" already.

Add the fighting between the step parent and the father.

Add the step mother's comment "What goes on in this house, stays in this house."

All equal to a boy's emotions being SQUASHED on a DAILY basis.

This boy has been TRAINED for a long time, seemingly his entire life, to SQUASH his emotions.

Why should this day be any different? He cried next to his father. He cried when he embraced Tiffany. He probably cried when he "was in the other room sleeping" at the neighbors house. Did he cry himself to sleep? He cuddled his grandmother all night.
One does not need to wale in order to grieve.

He was taught well. He did as he was taught.

"Good boy.":crying:

He should be released because he's already done 8 yrs, and he didn't do anything to deserve it.
Let his MOM have him!

[shelby77]

The post I responded to did IMO BASH the VICTIMS.

after thinking about it....YES, BLAMING the VICTIMS is also wrong IMO and done quite often here.


Well if you think the facts support responsbility on the victims part then that's on you. All I read in the post is facts and some questions. Apparently you think those facts equal guilt towards the victims. Wow.
Interesting indeed.....

[JusticeDawg©]

Maybe it depends on demographics

Here in Ohio .. juvie is a term used for "stupid stuff" like talking back to the teacher or running off or talking back to parents

Kids on the playground here are terrified of jail if they do more than that



My grandson who is eight was terrified of jail because they got called to the principal for using fingers as guns during a game of cops and robbers

and he never said juvie

Was terrified of jail

It ius a strange world our kids are in

Poor things

The juvenile detention center is on the one and only major steet in St John's.
Not like here. Heck I don't even know where ours is.

[ChildsVOICE]

A .357 magnum shoots either .38 or .357 centerfire cartridges. A revolver typically holds 6 rounds in it's cylinder. These guns are either single action (pull the hammer back) or double action (just squeeze the trigger.)
Neither of these pistols are compatible with (will shoot) .22s.

The pistol found in Mr. Romans truck is a .45 ACP semi-automatic, which also will not chamber (shoot) .22s.

(I don't know where those hammer figures come from. How do I get rid of them?)

HAWK,

Sorry if you've gone over this till your blue in the face. I think I didn't start coming on IS until after you all had discussed this. Again, sorry. BUT...:biggrin:...

What about a 40 caliber semi-auto pistol?

(Let me guess some type of 40 caliber bullet in no way uses .22 calibers) Seems pretty straight forward but wanted to ask to be sure since the rifle could be changed to fit the .17 hornadys.

Reason I'm asking is could any of these types of pistols have been the one to produce the "copper coated" bullets found in the victims?

I know that .22 caliber bullets can be copper coated. Is that the same for all bullets for all guns?

I just found it coincedental that IF it was a .357 magnum revolver pistol which is possibly missing from the truck and IF TR had been carrying it...could the shooter have used it to shoot TR the six times which just so happens to be the number of rounds it would hold?

I know there were .22 casings all over the place. Is there any way to confuse the two types of casings or does it have the size stamped on the spent casings?

(Boy. You'd never know I was raised around hunters. I was the little kid and the girl. I was the little sister. I didn't get to tag along as much.)

[mrrogers]

Oh God the crazies are out.

WHAT about a tiffany-nicole affair
when did nicole move in with tiffany
things like this can result of just what has happened

[GentleBreeze]

Bolding and color change done by me.


Police reports, witness statements, news reports.

Visit http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE.

Go To: Right hand column toward bottom:

"The boy 'took his religious faith very seriously,' said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church."

What I am saying is how do we know he was taught to be unemotional.

Some of the most emotional people I know are devout Catholics.

imoo

[ChildsVOICE]

WHAT about a tiffany-nicole affair
when did nicole move in with tiffany
things like this can result of just what has happened


:unsure::blushing::rolleyes:

[mrrogers]

[QUOTE=muska;12706661]Really? I know others have suggested that he seemed articulate, but I didn't find him particularly so. I thought he sounded like a nice, friendly little kid, more out-going than typical but not more verbal than average. He pretty much rambled wherever they wanted him to go. I have had third grade kids in class who would, I'm pretty sure, have kept Officers Neckel and Avila, right on task.[/QUOTE

thats true he spun one helluva a yarn after beihg prompted by a commander of jails and a 1 day detictive:w00t:

[muska]

What I am saying is how do we know he was taught to be unemotional.

Some of the most emotional people I know are devout Catholics.

imoo

I'm Catholic and in my experience, I would have to disagree with you. I think, in general, Catholics do not tend to show lots of emotion. Of course, when you get into subjects like this, it's difficult to generalize.

[JusticeDawg©]

Going to bed

I love the debate .. both sides


What is amazing to me is how over 200 people can be on the Casey Anthony thread when that is pretty much a done deal yet nobody can be bothered to be on this case which is so far from a from done deal

A pyscho chick kills her kid which happens every hour of every day is more important than an eight year old boy accused of killing his dad and another man

Baffles me

Are we too easy on murder these days or what?

Wow!

Poor Caylee. She was a beautiful little girl. Casey Anthony does not interest me in the least. I have no idea what is going on over there.

I DO have an interest in THIS beautiful little boy accused of these murders. He matters. I will be here till the end.

[muska]

You must not know many NY/NJ/Philly Italians! :tongueside:

On the contrary, I know quite a few.

[JusticeDawg©]

I'm with you there. I feel bad for the Anthony family but I'm way more concerned with this little boy. I with you till the end as well.

:beer::beer::beer:

[Hawk]

HAWK,

Sorry if you've gone over this till your blue in the face. I think I didn't start coming on IS until after you all had discussed this. Again, sorry. BUT...:biggrin:...

What about a 40 caliber semi-auto pistol?

(Let me guess some type of 40 caliber bullet in no way uses .22 calibers) Seems pretty straight forward but wanted to ask to be sure since the rifle could be changed to fit the .17 hornadys.

Reason I'm asking is could any of these types of pistols have been the one to produce the "copper coated" bullets found in the victims?

I know that .22 caliber bullets can be copper coated. Is that the same for all bullets for all guns?

I just found it coincedental that IF it was a .357 magnum revolver pistol which is possibly missing from the truck and IF TR had been carrying it...could the shooter have used it to shoot TR the six times which just so happens to be the number of rounds it would hold?

I know there were .22 casings all over the place. Is there any way to confuse the two types of casings or does it have the size stamped on the spent casings?

(Boy. You'd never know I was raised around hunters. I was the little kid and the girl. I was the little sister. I didn't get to tag along as much.)

Think of the circular dimension of the cartridge and gun. A .22 is .22 inches (almost a quarter of an inch, a bit smaller than a #2 lead pencil eraser). A .45 is .45 of an inch (almost a half inch in diameter). Bullets are also measured in weight using grains. A typical .22 is 40 grains while a .45 ACP might be 165 grains or bigger (or 4 times bigger than a .22 and maybe 8 times more powerful). There are pistol cartridges much more powerful than a .45 ACP, but that's what Mr. Romans had in his truck. It would never be confused with a .22.
.22 casing could not be confused with other casings. The closest rimfire cartridge in size is the .22 magnum and .17 HMR. But these are not interchangeable in rifles. The rifle must be designed to shoot only one of them (.22LR, .22 Magnum, or .17 HMR). .22 lead bullets have a thin coat on them to lessen distortion. Sometimes the coating is copper colored, often it is clear (lead colored).
Centerfire brass (casings have the caliber stamped on them around the primer (.38, .357, .40, .44, .45, etc).
.22 rimfire brass (casings) don't have a caliber stamping but do have a manufacturer's logo mark.

Mr. Romans wasn't shot with a .357.

[ChildsVOICE]

What I am saying is how do we know he was taught to be unemotional.

Some of the most emotional people I know are devout Catholics.

imoo


I attended a Catholic school with manditory chapel (or whatever we called it...too long ago) on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday every week before classes begun.

I am Protestant but attended a Catholic school.

My point about the boy being raised and regularly attending a Catholic church is the teachings of the after life and how we are suppposed to rejoice and celebrate a death and mourn a birth. (Scripture. Don't ask me where. That answer would require a google.:laugh:)

It is only one factor among many as to why a person may not break down and act like a raging baboon to display mourning and grief.

If one has been taught and it engrained into a little mind all about the wonders of Heaven, God etc. then that is only one factor a person can draw from to help them in the grieving process.

"Dad's ok. He's in Heaven now." type of thing.

I doubt the boy was actually thinking this. But who knows. I'm only saying it is a possibility because of his constant religious training he would have been taught that death is not a finality and that his dad was in a better place. That may have been comforting to him? He may of held that thought process in the back of his head, unconsiously?

I think he was just "shut down". He did cry. He did show grief. Off and on.

When the police went to the neighbors, the neighbor said he was in the other room asleep. That was around 6 p.m. in the evening. (Which is another defense mechanism=sleeping at 6 p.m.)

How long was he supposed to cry for? He cried for what he considered a long time right next to his dad. He cried when he embraced Tiffany. Was he crying himself to sleep when the neighbor shut the door?

Sometimes a small kid, when surrounded by all the confusion and shock and horror, and loved ones breaking down, will try to remain calm not to add to the burden of the loved ones. Sirens going on, people coming and going, police everywhere intruding onto his home/his sanctuary, going to a neighbors house to rest while others are breaking down all around him.

Pure shock will leave one emotionless.

I know from personal experience that when I have faced life threatening situations and have had my moments to cry...It helps me to engross myself into a television program where I can escape. I just can't think about my woes any longer and need something to distract me.

This boy's demeanor does not prove guilt. It may have just been a small child trying to hold strong while everyone else around him was breaking down.

If he was raised in a very strict home he would have had training to keep it together. It's a defense mechanism.

[ChildsVOICE]

Think of the circular dimension of the cartridge and gun. A .22 is .22 inches (almost a quarter of an inch, a bit smaller than a #2 lead pencil eraser). A .45 is .45 of an inch (almost a half inch in diameter). Bullets are also measured in weight using grains. A typical .22 is 40 grains while a .45 ACP might be 165 grains or bigger (or 4 times bigger than a .22 and maybe 8 times more powerful). There are pistol cartridges much more powerful than a .45 ACP, but that's what Mr. Romans had in his truck. It would never be confused with a .22.
.22 casing could not be confused with other casings. The closest rimfire cartridge in size is the .22 magnum and .17 HMR. But these are not interchangeable in rifles. The rifle must be designed to shoot only one of them (.22LR, .22 Magnum, or .17 HMR). .22 lead bullets have a thin coat on them to lessen distortion. Sometimes the coating is copper colored, often it is clear (lead colored).
Centerfire brass (casings have the caliber stamped on them around the primer (.38, .357, .40, .44, .45, etc).
.22 rimfire brass (casings) don't have a caliber stamping but do have a manufacturer's logo mark.

Mr. Romans wasn't shot with a .357.

Thanks. That answered my questions. :thumbup:

[Hawk]

Everything when every aspect of the shooting is taken into consideration. There is not a snowballs chance in um, in Miami FL on a hot summer day that the boy could possibly have committed both murders in the time line. Where was Tiffany between the time she bought Donuts & milk and the second trip to the store for "dinner"? Who else had access to a gun capable of shooting .22 LR bullets and an automatic instead of a single shot gun in the length of time of the "time line"? That's how he could have been duped.

The boy had ample time to do the deeds.

The boy did say, though, that grandpas gun was at his house.
Sgt. Rodriguez testified that they found no other .22 caliber guns during their search.
Where's the Mossberg. We've wondered that for awhile.

[ChildsVOICE]

Ok HAWK. Here's another question:

Mark Mercer told Womack:

"Saturday before wedding"
"VR was showing (him) his rifles"
he "handled THREE of VR's rifles that day"
"the weapons were in the living room in hard shelled cases."

I'm supposing all the rifleS could use varying caliber bullets, correct?

So, we cannot expect that ALL "three" would necessarily be .22 caliber? Correct?

Do you know which evidence report lists all three rifles confiscated or did they only take the Chipmunk?

[JusticeDawg©]

The boy had ample time to do the deeds.

The boy did say, though, that grandpas gun was at his house.
Sgt. Rodriguez testified that they found no other .22 caliber guns during their search.
Where's the Mossberg. We've wondered that for awhile.

His parents put the fear of God in this child. He wouldn't have the GUTS, let alone in 11 minutes, to pull something like this off.
He went hunting with these men. He knew what they were capable of against his "little Chipmunk gun".

I'd like to know where the other guns are now.

[Hawk]

Ok HAWK. Here's another question:

Mark Mercer told Womack:

"Saturday before wedding"
"VR was showing (him) his rifles"
he "handled THREE of VR's rifles that day"
"the weapons were in the living room in hard shelled cases."

I'm supposing all the rifleS could use varying caliber bullets, correct?

So, we cannot expect that ALL "three" would necessarily be .22 caliber? Correct?

Do you know which evidence report lists all three rifles confiscated or did they only take the Chipmunk?

According to Commander Avila Tiffany told her that Mr. Romero only owned three rifles (besides the Chipmunk). A 30-06, a 22-250, and a 7MM O8. These hunting rifle cartridges are huge compared to a .22. And again, the ammunition for these guns are not interchangeable.
To my knowledge LE only took the Chipmunk.

The little boy wouldn't be able to shoulder and shoot any of the large rifles.

[JusticeDawg©]

According to Commander Avila Tiffany told her that Mr. Romero only owned three rifles (besides the Chipmunk). A 30-06, a 22-250, and a 7MM O8. These hunting rifle cartridges are huge compared to a .22. And again, the ammunition for these guns are not interchangeable.
To my knowledge LE only took the Chipmunk.

The little boy wouldn't be able to shoulder and shoot any of the large rifles.
So who owned the Mossberg .22 Plinkster?

[ChildsVOICE]

His parents put the fear of God in this child. He wouldn't have the GUTS, let alone in 11 minutes, to pull something like this off.
He went hunting with these men. He knew what they were capable of against his "little Chipmunk gun".

I'd like to know where the other guns are now.

Justice Dawg,

I know you all went over this but I think you were doing so when I first came on.

See the Mercer/Womack questions I asked Hawk a few posts up.

Mercer says that "VR was showing him his rifles" (Saturday before the wedding) and he "handled THREE of VRs rifles that day." "the weapons were in the living room in hard shelled cases".

I know your theory about the Mossberg being missing. I'm wondering where is is too.

Hate to ask a question I know has probably been asked a hundred times but:
I'm supposing the other rifle is the Chipmunk.

So is the third rifle listed on an evidence report?

Its been so long since I've read those over. I don't remember.

[Hawk]

So who owned the Mossberg .22 Plinkster?

I'm just guessing it's grandpa's because the empty box was photographed in the house and the boy said Leroy has the same kind of gun as his, only bigger, and that it shoots the same bullets. And it's not a Chipmunk.

[ChildsVOICE]

According to Commander Avila Tiffany told her that Mr. Romero only owned three rifles (besides the Chipmunk). A 30-06, a 22-250, and a 7MM O8. These hunting rifle cartridges are huge compared to a .22. And again, the ammunition for these guns are not interchangeable.
To my knowledge LE only took the Chipmunk.

The little boy wouldn't be able to shoulder and shoot any of the large rifles.

Do you all remember where I read or heard that there were usually 5 large guns kept/stored under the bed? Did CR say that in the interrogation or did I read it somewhere?

3-mentioned above
1-Chipmunk
1-Mossberg?

Plus, where did I read that one of them was Tiffany's gun/rifle?

[Hawk]

Do you all remember where I read or heard that there were usually 5 large guns kept/stored under the bed? Did CR say that in the interrogation or did I read it somewhere?

3-mentioned above
1-Chipmunk
1-Mossberg?

Plus, where did I read that one of them was Tiffany's gun/rifle?

I think it was one of the co-workers who had either shot, or handled, the rifles while visiting the home. He referred to it as Tiffanys.

[ChildsVOICE]

I think it was one of the co-workers who had either shot, or handled, the rifles while visiting the home. He referred to it as Tiffanys.

Yeah. That was what I thought. I don't know which report. ?

Not going to look it up tonight though. :smile:

[muska]

I was just thinking about how Neckles said there was ammunition all over the floor upstairs.........just everywhere. Why would that be? Would there be any reason to drop bullets all over? Just wondering if there's any chance that the shooter actually spilled it all over in his/her hurry to find the right bullets. Just a thought.........

Good night all!

[Hawk]

Yeah. That was what I thought. I don't know which report. ?

Not going to look it up tonight though. :smile:



See page #8.



http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

[muska]

Yeah. That was what I thought. I don't know which report. ?

Not going to look it up tonight though. :smile:

I'm almost positive it was the chipmunk he was referring to and he called it "a little pea shooter." I think it was the good friend - Dana?

[Hawk]

I was just thinking about how Neckles said there was ammunition all over the floor upstairs.........just everywhere. Why would that be? Would there be any reason to drop bullets all over? Just wondering if there's any chance that the shooter actually spilled it all over in his/her hurry to find the right bullets. Just a thought.........

Good night all!

And a possibility.

Good night.

[ChildsVOICE]

I have a friend who does not think a gang would want to recruit TR because of his older age of 39 years UNLESS it was for the purpose of supplying drugs (IF TR has a history w/ that).
(Just my friend's opinion.)

My friend also thinks that IF TR had connections with any gang members then the crime could have even been committed because of a disrespect thing.

[JusticeDawg©]

Justice Dawg,

I know you all went over this but I think you were doing so when I first came on.

See the Mercer/Womack questions I asked Hawk a few posts up.

Mercer says that "VR was showing him his rifles" (Saturday before the wedding) and he "handled THREE of VRs rifles that day." "the weapons were in the living room in hard shelled cases".

I know your theory about the Mossberg being missing. I'm wondering where is is too.

Hate to ask a question I know has probably been asked a hundred times but:
I'm supposing the other rifle is the Chipmunk.

So is the third rifle listed on an evidence report?

Its been so long since I've read those over. I don't remember.

2nd SW return names the "case" of the Mossberg as being taken. The gun is missing.

In another report, a co-worker said Tiffany owned a .22.

Who knows where Grandpa's gun went.

Where is the 3rd evidence report? I thought it didn't go up yet? :confused:

[ChildsVOICE]

See page #8.



http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womack.pdf

Thanks. I was going by my notes and didn't write down the "wife's" part. Thanks, again.

Why would DANA call it the "wife's" "the little pea shooter"?

Isn't THAT the Chipmunk rifle?

Why would he call CRs Chipmunk rifle Tiffany's gun?

How much experience did Tiffany have with that gun? Is this the one the co-worker is ALSO calling Tiffany's .22 ?

[JusticeDawg©]

I think it was one of the co-workers who had either shot, or handled, the rifles while visiting the home. He referred to it as Tiffanys.

I should have read back. Sorry Hawk!:scared:

[ChildsVOICE]

Wow.

I think a better question to all this is...

Who had it out for this ENTIRE family?

[JusticeDawg©]

Thanks. I was going by my notes and didn't write down the "wife's" part. Thanks, again.

Why would DANA call it the "wife's" "the little pea shooter"?

Isn't THAT the Chipmunk rifle?

Why would he call CRs Chipmunk rifle Tiffany's gun?

The Chipmunk was VR's. Given to him when he was a boy.(as per Liz)
He gave it to CR on his 8th birthday (as per Liz)

I have no idea where Tiffany got a pea shooter. CR never mentions it.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ChildsVOICE]

2nd SW return names the "case" of the Mossberg as being taken. The gun is missing.

In another report, a co-worker said Tiffany owned a .22.

Who knows where Grandpa's gun went.

Where is the 3rd evidence report? I thought it didn't go up yet? :confused:

I was asking where the third rifle (that Mark Mercer had handled from the living room) was listed at? I would expect they would have taken it into evidence. Did they?

[JusticeDawg©]

I was asking where the third rifle (that Mark Mercer had handled from the living room) was listed at? I would expect they would have taken it into evidence. Did they?

They didn't take anything but the Chipmunk, and the Mossberg "case"

That is all I know. If they took more, I haven't seen it anywhere.

[JusticeDawg©]

I was asking where the third rifle (that Mark Mercer had handled from the living room) was listed at? I would expect they would have taken it into evidence. Did they?

Someone I know was arrested for Tampering with evidence in a missing persons case. (No body)

They took his entire gun collection (15 guns), his car and his truck. (No evidence of Missing person found)

He was found guilty, and served 8 yrs, but he NEVER got his guns or car back. He did get his truck back.

----------------
Why SJPD did such a sloppy job is beyond me.

[mrrogers]

i think the gun shot reinactment will answer alot of questions

im curious as to how thats going to be done in terms of tiffany and nicole
being in the house. also bb awhile back asked for permission to visit the
mrder seen. its been contaminated so bad since they released the house back to tiffany. i read a statement somewhere right after the scene was
released to tifany that it was cleaned up. which i dont blame her for,not wanting to be in the house with all the blood and stuff. now bb wouldnt find anything even if he went to the sscene:w00t:
i think we all oughta go to tiffany house and tell her we want to look around.
luminol will indicate blood (and bleach) lol
nite all