1/26 to 1/28

[bkwits]

Does anyone know if Tiffany was married before?

[rusure?]

Here ya go!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/PREADJUDICATION%20HEARING.pdf

Thank you very much.

[Pag Boi]

It must be somewhere else because there is not an "Order" document like when the judge grants a motion or denys a motion for something.

It's in the transcript of the 11/19 Preadjucation Hearing @ page 5

[GentleBreeze]

Does anyone know if Tiffany was married before?

She must have been. I think she told one of the officers that she hadn't heard from her ex in about 5 years.

imoo

[rusure?]

It's in the transcript of the 11/19 Preadjucation Hearing @ page 5

Thank you Pag Boi.

[rusure?]

It's under the drivers seat of the motor home parked out back

No, seriously, where is it?

[GentleBreeze]

Thank you very much.

You are very welcome.

[Hawk]

Does anyone know if Tiffany was married before?

Yes she was. She told LE she hadn't heard from her 'ex' in about five years.

Boy, am I slow.

[Jacobtk]

Why wouldn't she have gone to get CR if she was only running errands? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think the boy either was with her, at home or somewhere he was not supposed to be. It just seems improbable that the boy wandered around for two hours.

[rusure?]

She must have been. I think she told one of the officers that she hadn't heard from her ex in about 5 years.

imoo

Ohhhhh. She's 20 something now. How long did her first marriage last? Is he still living? How old was she when she married the first time. When the police investigated Tiffany, did they also investigate her first husband?

[Hawk]

No, seriously, where is it?

Most everyone here wants to know the same thing. Can't find it.

I hope none of the involved Apache county LE intend to go into bookkeeping in their second career.

[rusure?]

Most everyone here wants to know the same thing. Can't find it.

I hope none of the involved Apache county LE intend to go into bookkeeping in their second career.

I read somewhere that the DA had to have everything perfect. So far, it's not perfect.

[GentleBreeze]

Most everyone here wants to know the same thing. Can't find it.

I hope none of the involved Apache county LE intend to go into bookkeeping in their second career.

Could the Judge order that one of the supplemental discoveries be sealed?

Strange that Wood is not bringing this up.

imo

[rusure?]

Someone earlier was discussing the child's demeaner after the murders. What's more important, in my mind, is what was his demeaner prior to the murders. Did the bus driver notice anything out of the ordinary, did his teachers notice a different demeaner? Any friends on the bus?

[GentleBreeze]

Most everyone here wants to know the same thing. Can't find it.

I hope none of the involved Apache county LE intend to go into bookkeeping in their second career.

Hawk, how old is Tiffany? I cant remember.

imo

[Hawk]

Hawk, how old is Tiffany? I cant remember.

imo

She was born 06/21/78.

[Hawk]

Could the Judge order that one of the supplemental discoveries be sealed?

Strange that Wood is not bringing this up.

imo

This supplement could regard things pertaining to the abuse issue.
Just guessing.

[Jacobtk]

Could the Judge order that one of the supplemental discoveries be sealed?

Even if it were sealed it would still be listed. Most likely it was never uploaded, just like the last hearing's transcript.

[rusure?]

This supplement could regard things pertaining to the abuse issue.
Just guessing.

I looked at the Status Hearing from Dec. 22 and they did go into chambers to discuss things filed under seal.

[rusure?]

She was born 06/21/78.

Oh my goodness, I thought she was like 23-26 since Nicole Allen was a friend of hers.

[Hawk]

I looked at the Status Hearing from Dec. 22 and they did go into chambers to discuss things filed under seal.

That's why I try to avoid the legal stuff. Thanks.

Still want to know why they took the boy's underdrawers, though.

And why was he dumping his clothes on the floor to move his dresser so that Mr. Romans could put a big box in his room?

[GentleBreeze]

Even if it were sealed it would still be listed. Most likely it was never uploaded, just like the last hearing's transcript.

Oh, ok, thanks.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I looked at the Status Hearing from Dec. 22 and they did go into chambers to discuss things filed under seal.

That was probably to discuss the boy's Christmas furlough.

imoo

[rusure?]

That's why I try to avoid the legal stuff. Thanks.

Still want to know why they took the boy's underdrawers, though.

And why was he dumping his clothes on the floor to move his dresser so that Mr. Romans could put a big box in his room?

Perhaps that is what they discussed in chambers?

[wolfi_2]

That's why I try to avoid the legal stuff. Thanks.

Still want to know why they took the boy's underdrawers, though.

And why was he dumping his clothes on the floor to move his dresser so that Mr. Romans could put a big box in his room?

I don't like to think about that…! but sexual abuse, or abuse in any other way is a motive! Maybe that's why they go to speak in chambers so often?

[rusure?]

Even if it were sealed it would still be listed. Most likely it was never uploaded, just like the last hearing's transcript.

Thanks Jacobtk. Wonder why it was never uploaded? I believe the last hearing was a few weeks ago?

[wolfi_2]

That was probably to discuss the boy's Christmas furlough.

imoo


The Christmas furlough wasn't a great secret, I see no reason to discus about it in chambers.

[GentleBreeze]

The Christmas furlough wasn't a great secret, I see no reason to discus about it in chambers.

But exactly how it was to be carried out, was.

I think they are very aware, that they had to keep this under wraps as much as they could, so the media would not know where this boy was going or from any others, that may have wanted to know.

imo

[Jacobtk]

Thanks Jacobtk. Wonder why it was never uploaded? I believe the last hearing was a few weeks ago?

I have no idea. It could be that they just forgot or perhaps something was discussed that the judge does not want the public to see.

[wolfi_2]

But exactly how it was to be carried out, was.

I think they are very aware, that they had to keep this under wraps as much as they could, so the media would not know where this boy was going or from any others, that may have wanted to know.

imo

I think he was going to the same place as in the thanksgiving furlough with the same ramifications.

[Hawk]

I have no idea. It could be that they just forgot or perhaps something was discussed that the judge does not want the public to see.

It looks like supplemental disclosure #7 is the autopsy photos and medical examiners reports, judging from Mr. Brewer's request for disclosure between the dates of #6 and #8.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20FOR%20ADDITIONAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

[JusticeDawg©]

I have no idea. It could be that they just forgot or perhaps something was discussed that the judge does not want the public to see.

You would think the local media would be all over that.

[wolfi_2]

I have no idea. It could be that they just forgot or perhaps something was discussed that the judge does not want the public to see.

just in case, there is sexual abuse involved, to discuss about it in chambers would not only for protecting the boy, it would be for protecting the victims' families also, I think.

[rusure?]

It looks like supplemental disclosure #7 is the autopsy photos and medical examiners reports, judging from Mr. Brewer's request for disclosure between the dates of #6 and #8.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20FOR%20ADDITIONAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

I saw that but wondered why there wasn't an offical disclosure 7 list.

[rusure?]

just in case, there is sexual abuse involved, to discuss about it in chambers would not only for protecting the boy, it would be for protecting the victims' families also, I think.

ITA. Absolutely:thumbup:

[Hawk]

I saw that but wondered why there wasn't an offical disclosure 7 list.

They did release the autopsy reports to the media long before it was available publicly. But this isn't asking for the report only.
They have what Mr. Brewer asked for, and he does too. They just aren't going to release it. Especially the photos, of course.

[Jacobtk]

They did release the autopsy reports to the media long before it was available publicly. But this isn't asking for the report only.
They have what Mr. Brewer asked for, and he does too. They just aren't going to release it. Especially the photos, of course.

They already released the photos, at least the ones at the scene. However, the disclosure is just a document telling the court what the state plans to use. They do not turn over those things to the media or public, so there is no reason to seal the disclosure.

[Jacobtk]

just in case, there is sexual abuse involved, to discuss about it in chambers would not only for protecting the boy, it would be for protecting the victims' families also, I think.

Protect the victims' families from what? No one who assumes the boy is guilty would suddenly alter their opinion or feel sympathy for the boy if he was abused. Likewise, the allegations of abuse are coming from Carlyon, not the defense. It is likely going to factor into whatever he plans to claim the boy's motive was. So it makes no sense to seal that information if he plans on using it in the trial.

[GentleBreeze]

I think he was going to the same place as in the thanksgiving furlough with the same ramifications.

Was the pending Christmas furlough ever discussed in open court?

If so do you have the pfd link where it was discussed? I don't remember it being discussed at all but I may have missed reading that part.

TIA

[rusure?]

Was the pending Christmas furlough ever discussed in open court?

If so do you have the pfd link where it was discussed? I don't remember it being discussed at all but I may have missed reading that part.

TIA

I know I read something about a furlough in one of the documents on the court sight, but can't remember which one. There's so many of them. (Didn't think I would ever say there's not enough to read). The judge was discussing the rules of the furlough.

[wolfi_2]

Protect the victims' families from what? No one who assumes the boy is guilty would suddenly alter their opinion or feel sympathy for the boy if he was abused. Likewise, the allegations of abuse are coming from Carlyon, not the defense. It is likely going to factor into whatever he plans to claim the boy's motive was. So it makes no sense to seal that information if he plans on using it in the trial.


I don´t know why they are discus in chamber´s, but for me, it would be a reason!

I explain it from my (German) point of view, if there is some kind of abuse is involved here, the name of the victim and normally also from the abuser is protected by law. If children are involved doesn’t matter what they have done You can´t find any name nowhere. In general, court documents are sealed to the public, so that kind of discussion we are doing here, wouldn't be possible.

[rusure?]

I know I read something about a furlough in one of the documents on the court sight, but can't remember which one. There's so many of them. (Didn't think I would ever say there's not enough to read). The judge was discussing the rules of the furlough.

Bingo! http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MINUTE%20ENTRY%20STATUS%20HEARING.pdf

It was discussed in chambers.

[wolfi_2]

Was the pending Christmas furlough ever discussed in open court?

If so do you have the pfd link where it was discussed? I don't remember it being discussed at all but I may have missed reading that part.

TIA

Sorry, I don´t know about any PDF link where it was discussed, but I think they speak about it somewhere, maybe in chambers, but I also think that´s not a great secret, because the media knows about it also. So there was no real reason to speak in chambers, IMO.

[wolfi_2]

Bingo! http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MINUTE%20ENTRY%20STATUS%20HEARING.pdf

It was discussed in chambers.

thanks, I missed that.

[Pag Boi]

Why wouldn't she have gone to get CR if she was only running errands? That doesn't make sense to me.


Because CR thought she was at work until 5pm and he'd never be the wiser? :shrug: Technically, he's not even a latch-key kid. Every Monday and Wednesday he was left alone and used the front door b/c the back one was always locked. Ya think someone could have given him a courtesy call to see if he made it home okay. :cuss:

[rusure?]

thanks, I missed that.

I had to do alot of reading and scaning to find it.:smile:

[Jacobtk]

I explain it from my (German) point of view, if there is some kind of abuse is involved here, the name of the victim and normally also from the abuser is protected by law. If children are involved doesn’t matter what they have done You can´t find any name nowhere. In general, court documents are sealed to the public, so that kind of discussion we are doing here, wouldn't be possible.

In the US the abuser's name is not protected unless revealing the name would reveal the victim's name, such as a parent or relative abusing a child. They also do not seal those charges at all. So if that is what was in the disclosure, it would appear that both Carlyon and Roca are attempting to protect alleged child rapists while Carlyon gets to continue to slander the boy as cold-blooded murderer.

[Pag Boi]

In the US the abuser's name is not protected unless revealing the name would reveal the victim's name, such as a parent or relative abusing a child. They also do not seal those charges at all. So if that is what was in the disclosure, it would appear that both Carlyon and Roca are attempting to protect alleged child rapists while Carlyon gets to continue to slander the boy as cold-blooded murderer.


I wouldn't put this past our Bradley

[GentleBreeze]

Bingo! http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MINUTE%20ENTRY%20STATUS%20HEARING.pdf

It was discussed in chambers.

Thank you.

[GentleBreeze]

Great question! As far as we know, the boy had NO disciplinary problems in school and showed NO indication that something like this could happen. Everyone said he was a normal kid, loved hanging out with his dad, and that his faith was VERY important to him.

How he behaves AFTER the murders means NOTHING. Everyone reacts differently and most of us have not found their father and close friend shot to death in their own home when we were 8 years old.

But are we, in general, good predictors beforehand on who will commit crimes and who won't? In some cases everyone that knows the suspect is completely shocked.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

That's not exactly true. If there was proof this boy had been sexually abused by both of those men...or that one abused him and the other knew and did nothing, I would alter my opinion and I certainly would have more sympathy for him.

I just don't think that's the case here.

I have seen no indicators of that either. In fact the defense attorney stressed to Judge Roca that the abuse subject was started by the media and not them.

imoo

[rusure?]

Great question! As far as we know, the boy had NO disciplinary problems in school and showed NO indication that something like this could happen. Everyone said he was a normal kid, loved hanging out with his dad, and that his faith was VERY important to him.

How he behaves AFTER the murders means NOTHING. Everyone reacts differently and most of us have not found their father and close friend shot to death in their own home when we were 8 years old.

Well, this is important as well, but I was thinking more along the lines of the day of the murders. How was his demeaner at school, getting on the bus, getting off the bus, the day of the murder.

[rusure?]

But are we, in general, good predictors beforehand on who will commit crimes and who won't? In some cases everyone that knows the suspect is completely shocked.

imoo

Talk to a profiler. They can pretty much say the type of person who committed a series of murders or serial rapes.

[wolfi_2]

For me it´s late again, I think tomorrow at this time we will know more! I personal hope that it would get to a good end for the boy, not happy but good.
Good night!

[rusure?]

The kid couldn't have had too many problems because his father gave him a gun and guns were kept all over the house.:wink:

Would a child thought to be a problem be allowed access to a firearm? Parents with common sense would hopefully, lock them up.

Good point!

[rusure?]

Thank you! You've been bringing up some good points too!

I just feel so bad for this boy. Strangers are trying to figure out what happened. People he doesn't even know are supporting him. Tiffany should be standing on one side of him and his mother on the other. No matter what she "thinks" he did...he was part of the package when she married his father.

If he did it (I don't believe he did) Tiffany should take some responsibility for keeping a messy house with guns all over the place. Gosh...in that pigsty how did they even find Nellie's dog food?

Thank you. I had once gotten emotionally involved, but now I am trying to be objective about it. Asking more questions. All things are relevant. There is nothing in life that is irrelevant.

I cannot say too much really about Tiffany's house. I do not exactly keep my house too tidy either. Taking care of family and working and outside activities can keep you from keeping a tidy house. I try to cover it up by leaving a vaccum cleaner in the middle of the floor. That way if someone comes over, they just think I'm in the middle of cleaning.:smile:

[Hawk]

Thank you. I had once gotten emotionally involved, but now I am trying to be objective about it. Asking more questions. All things are relevant. There is nothing in life that is irrelevant.

I cannot say too much really about Tiffany's house. I do not exactly keep my house too tidy either. Taking care of family and working and outside activities can keep you from keeping a tidy house. I try to cover it up by leaving a vaccum cleaner in the middle of the floor. That way if someone comes over, they just think I'm in the middle of cleaning.:smile:

My wife does the same thing. You two may be related.

[Pag Boi]

Avila lied to this kid the first time she met him. This is her report from the night of the crime (11/5):



C came out and sat by Tiffany. I asked C to tell me what he did when he got off the bus. He told me he went home and that's when he saw Tim and his dad. I told C that Tim and his dad would not be home when he (C) got home from school.
I then advised C to be very honest with me because it was real important. I told him he would not get in trouble with his mom (Tiffany) if he just told me the truth.


Yet Neckles testified under oath on 11/7 that she thought he got off the bus around 3pm but we have not checked the bus schedule to determine that yet. :flamemad:

[bkwits]

Thank you. I had once gotten emotionally involved, but now I am trying to be objective about it. Asking more questions. All things are relevant. There is nothing in life that is irrelevant.

I cannot say too much really about Tiffany's house. I do not exactly keep my house too tidy either. Taking care of family and working and outside activities can keep you from keeping a tidy house. I try to cover it up by leaving a vaccum cleaner in the middle of the floor. That way if someone comes over, they just think I'm in the middle of cleaning.:smile:

Been there, done that, especially if I think my neat freak son is coming over. :thumbsup:

[bkwits]

That's not exactly true. If there was proof this boy had been sexually abused by both of those men...or that one abused him and the other knew and did nothing, I would alter my opinion and I certainly would have more sympathy for him.

I just don't think that's the case here.

Then do you think he was physically abused by one or both men?

[GentleBreeze]

Talk to a profiler. They can pretty much say the type of person who committed a series of murders or serial rapes.

But resure, a profiler is profiling someone who has already committed a certain crime. Most of the time serial killers.

I wish there really would be a day we could predict who was going to become a murderer, rapists or whatever but we sure aren't there yet.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

:tongueside:My house is lived in too.:smile:

I just wonder though...looking at the mess...how the cops (if they wanted to) find evidence of an intruder. Did they even attempt it?

I would go stark raving mad if I kept our home like Tiffany did.

It wouldn't have been so bad if any of them ever picked up a darn thing, I have never seen so many clothes just dropped everywhere.

Good grief when she washed her clothes, when she finally got around to it..................... it had to take her weeks.



imo

[rusure?]

But resure, a profiler is profiling someone who has already committed a certain crime. Most of the time serial killers.

I wish there really would be a day we could predict who was going to become a murderer, rapists or whatever but we sure aren't there yet.

imoo

For the record, that's what I was talking about. Note the past tense of my post. ("committed")

[GentleBreeze]

For the record, that's what I was talking about. Note the past tense of my post. ("committed")

Sorry, I misspelled you nic in my post reply to you.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Well, I suppose my house is not as bad as her's was. At least I limit the amount of laundry laying about the house. It just takes me alllll day long to do laundry when I get around to it.:blushing:

I can certainly understand that. Times are so busy and so hectic now for a lot of families.

Maybe she just let it collect on the floor all week and then picked it all up on the weekends.

Thank goodness, my hubby picks up after himself.

I admit I am a neat freak....even when we had our children here. They were all taught to pick up after themselves. I didn't mind them strewing the house with their toys or whatever they were interested in at the time, as long as they picked up their things before they went to bed.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

I just don't think this little guy got up that morning...went to school with no problems and then came home to wait for his father so he could shoot to kill him.

How did this boy concentrate on his school work? You'd think his mind would have been on his "plan" and not on his studies.

Why wasn't a child psychologist brought in to interview this boy from the get-go? If they thought the boy was a witness - why not bring in an expert to talk to him? Heck, why not bring in the expert to comfort a child who just found his father shot to death.

I really cant answer those questions. I think they were all shocked by all of this and weren't really prepared how to handle what was unfolding. This town just didn't have murders and to then have a double homicide with an 8 year accused of the crime sent them in every direction not knowing exactly how to handle it imo.

We do no know his demeanor that day. If he was just quiet then the teacher wouldn't have picked up on anything being wrong.

imoo

[Pag Boi]

I just don't think this little guy got up that morning...went to school with no problems and then came home to wait for his father so he could shoot to kill him.

How did this boy concentrate on his school work? You'd think his mind would have been on his "plan" and not on his studies.

Why wasn't a child psychologist brought in to interview this boy from the get-go? If they thought the boy was a witness - why not bring in an expert to talk to him? Heck, why not bring in the expert to comfort a child who just found his father shot to death.

Neckles told BB that she called some counseling center and that the priest was there. DN just left it up to others to look after the child. She didn't know what, if any, counseling the child received b/f she coerced a confession out of him.

There is a whole lot of CYA going on in Apache County JMOO

[Hawk]

I just don't think this little guy got up that morning...went to school with no problems and then came home to wait for his father so he could shoot to kill him.

How did this boy concentrate on his school work? You'd think his mind would have been on his "plan" and not on his studies.

Why wasn't a child psychologist brought in to interview this boy from the get-go? If they thought the boy was a witness - why not bring in an expert to talk to him? Heck, why not bring in the expert to comfort a child who just found his father shot to death.


If this had been handled legally from the beginning that may have happened.
The boy's next of kin, Leroy Romero, refused to allow LE to talk to him, but they did anyway.

No Miranda so he wasn't given an opportunity to have legal counsel.

Questioned extensively without a lawyer or relative present.

Lied to repeatedly and prodded, by an inexperienced one day detective and a conniving jailer.

How much more illegal could it have gotten?

[Jacobtk]

Why wasn't a child psychologist brought in to interview this boy from the get-go? If they thought the boy was a witness - why not bring in an expert to talk to him? Heck, why not bring in the expert to comfort a child who just found his father shot to death.

Most likely because a child psychiatrist would ask the questions you asked. Granted, it is not common for police to interview child victims, witnesses and certainly not suspects with anyone supporting the child present. A officer's job is to get the information they want, honestly or not. What Avila did to the boy is fairly common even among interviews with child rape victims. That is one of the reasons why it is recommended that someone be present along with the officer to prevent the officer from intimidating, frightening or manipulating the child.

[Jacobtk]

If this had been handled legally from the beginning that may have happened. The boy's next of kin, Leroy Romero, refused to allow LE to talk to him, but they did anyway.

I think that is an important fact. The boy's grandfather did not think Avila or Neckels were capable of conducting a professional interview. I am certain there was a reason for that given that he requested someone else conduct the interview and that a psychiatrist be present.

[GentleBreeze]

I didn't notice that they were specifically her clothes?:confused:

:tongueside: Ok, when she washed their clothes.

imo

[Pag Boi]

Most likely because a child psychiatrist would ask the questions you asked. Granted, it is not common for police to interview child victims, witnesses and certainly not suspects with anyone supporting the child present. A officer's job is to get the information they want, honestly or not. What Avila did to the boy is fairly common even among interviews with child rape victims. That is one of the reasons why it is recommended that someone be present along with the officer to prevent the officer from intimidating, frightening or manipulating the child.

Great post even tho the content is somewhat disturbing.

Sadistic jail commander JMOO

[Hawk]

I think that is an important fact. The boy's grandfather did not think Avila or Neckels were capable of conducting a professional interview. I am certain there was a reason for that given that he requested someone else conduct the interview and that a psychiatrist be present.

Grandpa says no, so the two 'Officers of the Law' go spitefully fetch Tiffany when they knew she wasn't his mother.

Grandpa should have put his foot down.
Or somewhere more personal.

[bkwits]

If this had been handled legally from the beginning that may have happened.
The boy's next of kin, Leroy Romero, refused to allow LE to talk to him, but they did anyway.

No Miranda so he wasn't given an opportunity to have legal counsel.

Questioned extensively without a lawyer or relative present.

Lied to repeatedly and prodded, by an inexperienced one day detective and a conniving jailer.

How much more illegal could it have gotten?


Thank you Hawk. I most certainly agree with everything you've said in this post.
:angry:

[Jacobtk]

Grandpa says no, so the two 'Officers of the Law' go spitefully fetch Tiffany when they knew she wasn't his mother.

That should make the interrogation illegal on its own. Tiffany had not adopted him and was not his legal guardian, so she had no place consenting to anything.

Grandpa should have put his foot down. Or somewhere more personal.

Karma has a way of working these things out. If I were Avila and Neckels and it turned out the boy is innocent, I would be concerned about the real murderers coming after me for interfering with their execution.

[bkwits]

No, I don't. There wasn't a mark on him nor have there been any reports of any....well except from the boy and his 1000 spankings tale.

imo

Then what, IYO, made the child so angry or vengeful that he took his dad's life, and that of what some say was a witness (although it doesn't seem like he saw the shooting of VR)?

[IAMME]

We still dont know for sure when he gets off the bus....one of the officers said she thought around 3....but that could be completely wrong, she may just be making that assumption bc that is around the time school gets out.....

I dont know much about the area there, how big or how rural the school district is, but I live about 2 miles from my kids school and they dont get off the bus until 3:45. We have buses that dont get back to the school until almost 6pm.

[Jacobtk]

We still dont know for sure when he gets off the bus....one of the officers said she thought around 3....but that could be completely wrong, she may just be making that assumption bc that is around the time school gets out.....

She could have checked with the bus driver or the school to find out. Again, it looks more and more like no one bothered to conduct a basic investigation. Or perhaps I am spoiled from living in a major city.

[GentleBreeze]

Grandpa says no, so the two 'Officers of the Law' go spitefully fetch Tiffany when they knew she wasn't his mother.

Grandpa should have put his foot down.
Or somewhere more personal.

Didn't the grandmother talk the grandpa into it though. I thought she came in there and said it was alright but I may have remembered it wrong.

imo

[freddief]

:tongueside:

I would go stark raving mad if I kept our home like Tiffany did.

It wouldn't have been so bad if any of them ever picked up a darn thing, I have never seen so many clothes just dropped everywhere.

Good grief when she washed her clothes, when she finally got around to it..................... it had to take her weeks.



imo
I've been in the home many times. Ordinarilly she is a super neat freak. The home is virtually spotless. Ask Leroy or anyone else who has been at the house. I do know the police ransacked the place.

[GentleBreeze]

I've been in the home many times. Ordinarily she is a super neat freak. The home is virtually spotless. Ask Leroy or anyone else who has been at the house. I do know the police ransacked the place.

Thanks, freddie. I sure have seen on tv where other homes have been destroyed during a police search.

imoo

[Hawk]

We still dont know for sure when he gets off the bus....one of the officers said she thought around 3....but that could be completely wrong, she may just be making that assumption bc that is around the time school gets out.....

I dont know much about the area there, how big or how rural the school district is, but I live about 2 miles from my kids school and they dont get off the bus until 3:45. We have buses that dont get back to the school until almost 6pm.

The school closes at 4:00pm. I think I read that his bus drops him off at 3:30pm. The school is 1.7 miles from his (former) home.
It's only .3 miles (about one minute) from Tiffany's work. She could have easily picked him up at school before loafing around that day.

Anyway here's a site that doesn't give bus schedules but does show how small the school is and how familiar the kids would with each other.

http://schools.publicschoolsreport.com/Arizona/StJohns/CoronadoElementarySchool.html

[GentleBreeze]

This is the grandmother who thought he was capable of committing this crime, right?

I really have to wonder what life was like for C.

How was he treated when Dad was at the bar and he was at home with Tiffany? How did he treat Tiffany? Was she even home with him?

Yes, the same grandparents that thought he was capable of doing this.

I wonder why the grandfather suggested a psychiatrist? Did he think automatically that his grandson had done this and thought there is something mentally off with the boy?

imoo

[Hawk]

I've been in the home many times. Ordinarilly she is a super neat freak. The home is virtually spotless. Ask Leroy or anyone else who has been at the house. I do know the police ransacked the place.

You know these folks? What are your thoughts on the investigation?

[Kara]

I cannot say too much really about Tiffany's house. I do not exactly keep my house too tidy either. Taking care of family and working and outside activities can keep you from keeping a tidy house. I try to cover it up by leaving a vaccum cleaner in the middle of the floor. That way if someone comes over, they just think I'm in the middle of cleaning.:smile:I'm no neat freak either...but excess clutter does bug me.

And...if you are going to use your vacuum as a cleaning decoy...never use it as a coffee table, it totally blows the cover. :)

[bkwits]

We still dont know for sure when he gets off the bus....one of the officers said she thought around 3....but that could be completely wrong, she may just be making that assumption bc that is around the time school gets out.....

I dont know much about the area there, how big or how rural the school district is, but I live about 2 miles from my kids school and they dont get off the bus until 3:45. We have buses that dont get back to the school until almost 6pm.

Ya know, I just don't understand why we have never had that information. Surely he gets off the bus about the same time every day. Does anyone know when his school lets out?

[Hawk]

Ya know, I just don't understand why we have never had that information. Surely he gets off the bus about the same time every day. Does anyone know when his school lets out?

Your district is probably hauling more than 288 kids, though. Isn't it?

[Hawk]

I've been in the home many times. Ordinarilly she is a super neat freak. The home is virtually spotless. Ask Leroy or anyone else who has been at the house. I do know the police ransacked the place.

I don't think the cops made the mess in the kitchen and bathrooms.

[freddief]

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute

[Hawk]

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute

Was the wedding last year a fake?

[Crispy]

I don't think the cops made the mess in the kitchen and bathrooms.

They probably didn't through bullets around the room either.

[bkwits]

Your district is probably hauling more than 288 kids, though. Isn't it?

I don't have any children in school, and mine never road the bus to school. When my grandchildren road the bus in a very small school district last year, it took them an hour to get home (about a 10 minute drive normally). It's a semi rural area.

[freddief]

Was the wedding last year a fake?

They've been planning this wedding for about a year through the priest...where did you get this fake wedding??????

[GentleBreeze]

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute

I thought she told one of the officers she had but hadn't heard from her ex in 5 years.

imo

[IAMME]

Your district is probably hauling more than 288 kids, though. Isn't it?

Mine prob. isn't, not significantly more neways....Not sure how many students are there now...In '95 I graduated in a class of 34, and the class sizes are about the same now.....K-12 and our buses are out until 6 pm......And I know completely what you mean by the students knowing each other lol, in a school that size you know the other kids, their siblings, their parents and in most cases their grandparents.

[bkwits]

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute

Are you sure we are talking about the same people?:confused:

[Hawk]

They've been planning this wedding for about a year through the priest...where did you get this fake wedding??????

You said it in your last post;

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute

[Hawk]

I thought she told one of the officers she had but hadn't heard from her ex in 5 years.

imo

Wasn't she married to Mr. Romero?
I'm confused.

[Hawk]

I don't have any children in school, and mine never road the bus to school. When my grandchildren road the bus in a very small school district last year, it took them an hour to get home (about a 10 minute drive normally). It's a semi rural area.

I don't have children in school either, but it takes a long time for my grand-kids to get home.

So I guess it'd be hard to make an accurate guess when the boy got off his bus.

[GentleBreeze]

Wasn't she married to Mr. Romero?
I'm confused.

Yes, she was married to Vinnie, but I think in her interview she told the officer she had an ex but hadnt heard from him in 5 years.

Maybe it was her ex boyfriend.

imoo

[freddief]

I thought she told one of the officers she had but hadn't heard from her ex in 5 years.

imo
Despite all the posts you've read, Tiffany's a kind and decent peson and well liked by the community, as evidenced by how many people showed up at the funeral, as evidenced by the football team supporting her, as well as the mormon community supporting her. She is always helping out old people and I've seen her she giving money to some of the poorer kids to go swimming. Once the interviews are released, i.e., school techers, etc., you'll see how many people really like her.

[Hawk]

Yes, she was married to Vinnie, but I think in her interview she told the officer she had an ex but hadnt heard from him in 5 years.

Maybe it was her ex boyfriend.

imoo

She may have meant her ex-boyfriend, right. But I'm wondering about the poster's comment. Everyone knows she was married. The pictures, the Priest, etc.

Sorry, just scratching my head.

[freddief]

She had an ex boyfriend about 5 or 6 years ago.

[Hawk]

She had an ex boyfriend about 5 or 6 years ago.

What about the wedding? Is a Catholic wedding not recognized by the Mormon Church?
Please explain.

[JusticeDawg©]

I thought she told one of the officers she had but hadn't heard from her ex in 5 years.

imo

She did say that. Said she hasn't seen him in 5 yrs.

Maybe he was in prison with her Bro-in-law. :shrug:

moo

[JusticeDawg©]

They've been planning this wedding for about a year through the priest...where did you get this fake wedding??????

I see a supeona for IN Session coming.....

imo

[Hawk]

I see a supeona for IN Session coming.....

imo

I know I'm stupid and insane, but can you tell me what, if anything, this means?
No marriage?

[Kara]

What about the wedding? Is a Catholic wedding not recognized by the Mormon Church?
Please explain.
All marriages are recognized by the mormon church (as marriages for time...til death do they part) But, for mormons, the only thing worse than a non mormon would be a jack mormon.

moo

I thought all parties involved in this case were catholic, not mormon. :shrug:

[freddief]

catholic marriage in September attended by many mormon friends

[eagargal]

Despite all the posts you've read, Tiffany's a kind and decent peson and well liked by the community, as evidenced by how many people showed up at the funeral, as evidenced by the football team supporting her, as well as the mormon community supporting her. She is always helping out old people and I've seen her she giving money to some of the poorer kids to go swimming. Once the interviews are released, i.e., school techers, etc., you'll see how many people really like her.

ITA freddief

[Pag Boi]

I don't think the cops made the mess in the kitchen and bathrooms.

LE said that C's room and the master bedroom were filthy. IIRC, Sgt Rod was the one that told BB this.

[Hawk]

catholic marriage in September attended by many mormon friends

Vincent was a fine fellow too, wasn't he?

[JusticeDawg©]

I know I'm stupid and insane, but can you tell me what, if anything, this means?
No marriage?

I have no idea. :confused:

Would explain no name change.

[Hawk]

LE said that C's room and the master bedroom were filthy. IIRC, Sgt Rod was the one that told BB this.

So did the boy.

[eagargal]

She did say that. Said she hasn't seen him in 5 yrs.

Maybe he was in prison with her Bro-in-law. :shrug:

moo

Francesca is not married to Ryon.

[Dallasnc]

catholic marriage in September attended by many mormon friends

I have a question about the mess in the house. Has anyone seen it unkept before?

[JusticeDawg©]

LE said that C's room and the master bedroom were filthy. IIRC, Sgt Rod was the one that told BB this.

Photo of kitchen looked ok.
eh, not perfect, but not scummy.

[freddief]

Vincent was a fine fellow too, wasn't he?

He was a good man, again making and taking the time to talk to anyone...helping out a lot of people with their roofs, etc.

[Hawk]

Francesca is not married to Ryon.

So what's the general feeling about the boys guilt around St. Johns. Are there any other suspects?

[JusticeDawg©]

Francesca is not married to Ryon.

What does nobody get married in this family?? VR didn't marry Chavez either did he???

Francesca & Ryon have children together, and she gave those children his wonderful name. That is close enough for me.

[IAMME]

I have no idea. :confused:

Would explain no name change.


Maybe the license wasnt ever filed???????:confused:

guessing.....

[freddief]

Mostly everyone is still in shock that this could happen....

[Hawk]

Mostly everyone is still in shock that this could happen....


What's the feeling toward the police department?

[IAMME]

Surprisingly Tiffany has never been married..and she's pretty cute


Hmmm.....This post sorta reminds me of one I saw b4, pretty sure they ARE NOT the same person but that other person sure is cool...........LOL

[Hawk]

Hmmm.....This post sorta reminds me of one I saw b4, pretty sure they ARE NOT the same person but that other person sure is cool...........LOL

Is a little chain pulling going on?

[IAMME]

Is a little chain pulling going on?

LOL, ya a little, pretty sure that other post was while you were MIA, what a HOOT!!!

[freddief]

What's the feeling toward the police department?

Pretty incompetent...Barney Fife is an understatement...the police chief went way to public and said things without checking them out...the crime scene forensics were terrible, the boys interview was atrocious, a lot of mistakes were made...

[JusticeDawg©]

Hmmm.....This post sorta reminds me of one I saw b4, pretty sure they ARE NOT the same person but that other person sure is cool...........LOL

You called him right out. LOL!!! :thumbsup:

[Hawk]

Pretty incompetent...Barney Fife is an understatement...the police chief went way to public and said things without checking them out...the crime scene forensics were terrible, the boys interview was atrocious, a lot of mistakes were made...

Do you think the boy is guilty?

[JusticeDawg©]

Pretty incompetent...Barney Fife is an understatement...the police chief went way to public and said things without checking them out...the crime scene forensics were terrible, the boys interview was atrocious, a lot of mistakes were made...

forensics/ballistics came back in bad shape. I heard. :angry:

How are they ever going to know what really happened? :cursing:

moo

[Crispy]

Pretty incompetent...Barney Fife is an understatement...the police chief went way to public and said things without checking them out...the crime scene forensics were terrible, the boys interview was atrocious, a lot of mistakes were made...

Can't argue with that.

[Hawk]

Tomorrow when (and if) Judge Roca rules against the state on the charge dismissal can the state refile at a later date? (like after the competency ruling, should it go against the boy)?

[freddief]

Do you think the boy is guilty?

I guess you're not guilty until proven guilty...

[GentleBreeze]

Tomorrow when (and if) Judge Roca rules against the state on the charge dismissal can the state refile at a later date? (like after the competency ruling, should it go against the boy?

I wouldnt think so but they can appeal it all the way up the Court high power ladder.

imoo

[Kara]

Is a little chain pulling going on?I belive so....

"Who" do you think might be behind this?

[Hawk]

I belive so....

"Who" do you think might be behind this?

Believe me, it ain't a bird. I promise.

[IAMME]

I belive so....

"Who" do you think might be behind this?

Glad to know its not just me......

[Hawk]

I wouldnt think so but they can appeal it all the way up the Court high power ladder.

imoo

I was just thinking that the judge has made it clear that he wouldn't rule on 'substantive' issues until after competency was decided.

Think he changed his mind or does he have a plan?

[Kara]

Glad to know its not just me......:) I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed..but I ain't totally stupid either.

moo

[GentleBreeze]

I was just thinking that the judge has made it clear that he wouldn't rule on 'substantive' until after competency was decided.

Think he changed his mind or does he have a plan?

Who really knows. By having the hearing he must be going to address it now in some way?

imoo

[Crispy]

I was just thinking that the judge has made it clear that he wouldn't rule on 'substantive' until after competency was decided.

Think he changed his mind or does he have a plan?

IMO, I don't think he will dismiss the charge. He will hear the arguments, but I don't think he will rule knowing competency is still an issue. I'm sure the prosecutors will appeal.

[JusticeDawg©]

Who really knows. By having the hearing he must be going to address it now in some way?

imoo

Appellate court said JR could dismiss BOTH counts with prejudice.

I can tell what they saw. :wink:

[GentleBreeze]

Appellate court said JR could dismiss BOTH counts with prejudice.

I can tell what they saw. :wink:

OK, tell me.

Was that in the last appellate ruling?

imo

[muska]

IMO, I don't think he will dismiss the charge. He might hear the arguments, but I don't think he will rule knowing competency is still an issue. I'm sure the prosecutors will appeal.

If he doesn't dismiss and Carlyon decides to appeal, will that delay the competency hearing again?

[JusticeDawg©]

OK, tell me.

Was that in the last appellate ruling?

imo

Find the link and read it. I am not a secretary. :smile:

[Crispy]

If he doesn't dismiss and Carlyon decides to appeal, will that delay the competency hearing again?

I guess it could. I hope not though.

[eagargal]

So what's the general feeling about the boys guilt around St. Johns. Are there any other suspects?

When I first heard of this tragedy, it never occurred to me this child couldn't have done it, given that a lot of kids here are taught to hunt and are proficient with rifles. My absolute first thought was, 'what did Eryn tell this kid (overtly or inadvertently) to precipitate this?'

I realize this is not the consensus of this board. I can't speak to the mindset of people in SJ other than to say everyone is horrified still.

[GentleBreeze]

Find the link and read it. I am not a secretary. :smile:

I don't need a secretary.

I ask you simply, was it in the last appellate ruling?

A yes or no would have sufficed.

imo

[Hawk]

If he doesn't dismiss and Carlyon decides to appeal, will that delay the competency hearing again?

My question exactly! If that's the case there should be a public outcry! A lynch mob (figuratively speaking of course).

This thing has gone on long enough. Time for posturing has pasted.

[JusticeDawg©]

I don't need a secretary.

I ask you simply, was it in the last appellate ruling?

A yes or no would have sufficed.

imo

There was only one.

[Hawk]

When I first heard of this tragedy, it never occurred to me this child couldn't have done it, given that a lot of kids here are taught to hunt and are proficient with rifles. My absolute first thought was, 'what did Eryn tell this kid (overtly or inadvertently) to precipitate this?'

I realize this is not the consensus of this board. I can't speak to the mindset of people in SJ other than to say everyone is horrified still.

Did you know either of the deceased? Some folks seem to think Mr. Romans was a 'shady character', but that Mr. Romero was an upstanding citizen, although maybe rough on his son.

[GentleBreeze]

There was only one.

Well that one I had read. Of course, if he declares the boy incompetent he can dismiss with prejudice both counts but we aren't to that stage yet. He also can rule to dismiss count one without prejudice and do so before the competency issue is resolved.

imoo

[muska]

My question exactly! If that's the case there should be a public outcry! A lynch mob (figuratively speaking of course).

This thing has gone on long enough. Time for posturing has pasted.

The worst thing will be if he agrees to Carlyon's motion.....then it could be years and years. That would be bad all the way around, for everyone. IMO

[JusticeDawg©]

When I first heard of this tragedy, it never occurred to me this child couldn't have done it, given that a lot of kids here are taught to hunt and are proficient with rifles. My absolute first thought was, 'what did Eryn tell this kid (overtly or inadvertently) to precipitate this?'

I realize this is not the consensus of this board. I can't speak to the mindset of people in SJ other than to say everyone is horrified still.

Why Eryn? She didn't spank him. Tiffany DID. :smile:

[Crispy]

The worst thing will be if he agrees to Carlyon's motion.....then it could be years and years. That would be bad all the way around, for everyone. IMO


I think them refiling later would be just wrong! Do they have to have a reason to want the charge dismissed or can they do it solely for the purpose of getting around the competency issue? Just seems shady to me

[Hawk]

The worst thing will be if he agrees to Carlyon's motion.....then it could be years and years. That would be bad all the way around, for everyone. IMO

Seems like if he was going to do that he would have ruled on the motion at the next hearing after Mr. Carlyon filed it.

I don't know how it works. Sure is frustrating.

[Jacobtk]

forensics/ballistics came back in bad shape. I heard. :angry:

What was the problem with the evidence?

[IAMME]

In the photos I've seen I never saw "filth" I just saw stuff laying all over. Like the photo of the bathroom ...the sink looked sparkling clean but there were clothes tossed all over.

Maybe LE did toss the place ?

Or maybe it was the killer(s) IMO

[Hawk]

Why Eryn? She didn't spank him. Tiffany DID. :smile:

Eryn's an outsider. An easy target.

[Jacobtk]

Tomorrow when (and if) Judge Roca rules against the state on the charge dismissal can the state refile at a later date? (like after the competency ruling, should it go against the boy)?

If the judge rules that the charge must be dismissed with prejudice, the state cannot refile the charge. If he refuses the motion I suppose they could appeal, but it would be pointless. The Court of Appeals is not in the habit of overturning judge's rulings without very good reason.

[muska]

I think them refiling later would be just wrong! Do they have to have a reason to want the charge dismissed or can they do it solely for the purpose of getting around the competency issue? Just seems shady to me

Prosecution would make some kind of claim, but clearly the purpose would be just to get around the competency issue.......to make sure they wouldn't run out of time. I wonder if it would hold up later when charges were again filed.

[JusticeDawg©]

I think them refiling later would be just wrong! Do they have to have a reason to want the charge dismissed or can they do it solely for the purpose of getting around the competency issue? Just seems shady to me

The Motion to dismiss has been modified. Seems they changed some things. :shrug:

[Hawk]

If the judge rules that the charge must be dismissed with prejudice, the state cannot refile the charge. If he refuses the motion I suppose they could appeal, but it would be pointless. The Court of Appeals is not in the habit of overturning judge's rulings without very good reason.

Then it looks like the state has put themselves in a hard spot. If Judge Roca dismisses 'With Prejudice' then decides the boy is competent and found guilty, he'll only be in jail until his 18th birthday, right? Worst case scenario.

Not that it's a good thing but it's better than life in big boys prison like Mr. Carlyon wants.

[IAMME]

I shared you first thought. I think the boy wanted to live with her, thought the grass would be greener

Can you blame him?? What with the new step-monster forbidding him from speaking about god-knows-what went on in that house with his own mother??? Not that I believe that was a motive for murder...bc I dont believe he did it.....IMO

[JusticeDawg©]

Then it looks like the state has put themselves in a hard spot. If Judge Roca dismisses 'With Prejudice' then decides the boy is competent and found guilty, he'll only be in jail until his 18th birthday, right? Worst case scenario.

Not that it's a good thing but it's better than life in big boys prison like Mr. Carlyon wants.

Found guilty of just TR's murder? :confused:
That would be odd. imo

[IAMME]

You mean the Mexican INTERnationals, the hired hit man or the gang? :rolleyes:

You left out the most likely.....The Victims Spouses.....IMO

[mrrogers]

Tomorrow when (and if) Judge Roca rules against the state on the charge dismissal can the state refile at a later date? (like after the competency ruling, should it go against the boy)?

if its dismissed as written yes,with prejudice no :w00t:

[Hawk]

Found guilty of just TR's murder? :confused:
That would be odd. imo

I don't know what I'm talking about. With, Without, I probably said that all wrong.

I meant that it would be better to spend 9 years in juvenile, which I hope doesn't happen, than to spend life in a State Prison like Mr. Carlyon wants.

Still believe Judge Roca will do the right thing and find him incompetent.

[Jacobtk]

Then it looks like the state has put themselves in a hard spot. If Judge Roca dismisses 'With Prejudice' then decides the boy is competent and found guilty, he'll only be in jail until his 18th birthday, right? Worst case scenario.

Since Roca would likely be the sitting judge in the trial and the trial would be a bench trial, it is unlikely he would dismiss one charge with prejudice, but find the boy competent. If he did that he would be slapped with a charge of unethical behavior, probably by both sides.

[eagargal]

Did you know either of the deceased? Some folks seem to think Mr. Romans was a 'shady character', but that Mr. Romero was an upstanding citizen, although maybe rough on his son.

I did not know Mr. Romans. His autopsy didn't indicate current drug use, so unless he was very disciplined I don't see him as a current drug dealer. I would agree with mrrogers (on this item only :biggrin:) that in a small town one can 'earn' a label that never goes away. People talk and remember forever. Like you, I found no recent court activity to indicate drug use or dealing, however if he had been 'popped' for dealing a decade or two ago I wouldn't be suprised that he still carried a rep of a drug dealer.

I was suprised by the interview of a friend indicating that Mr. Romans had been invited to join the 'gang', Team Loco. To my knowledge, Team Loco is an off-road/sand rail club and a clothing line...not a gang.

Vince was a nice man, worked hard and loved his family. It's a tragic loss for all parties.

[JusticeDawg©]

I don't know what I'm talking about. With, Without, I probably said that all wrong.

I meant that it would be better to spend 9 years in juvenile, which I hope doesn't happen, than to spend life in a State Prison like Mr. Carlyon wants.

Still believe Judge Roca will do the right thing and find him incompetent.

I totally agree!:smile:

[muska]

When I first heard of this tragedy, it never occurred to me this child couldn't have done it, given that a lot of kids here are taught to hunt and are proficient with rifles. My absolute first thought was, 'what did Eryn tell this kid (overtly or inadvertently) to precipitate this?'

I realize this is not the consensus of this board. I can't speak to the mindset of people in SJ other than to say everyone is horrified still.

Whether people think he did it or not, he's still a little boy. Do you think St Johns is behind this boy? If everyone liked Vincent so well, it seems like people would try to see his son through this one way or the other. It seems like a father would want that.

[TaraCrazyHair]

The Motion to dismiss has been modified. Seems they changed some things. :shrug:

What was changed?

[IAMME]

I did not know Mr. Romans. His autopsy didn't indicate current drug use, so unless he was very disciplined I don't see him as a current drug dealer. I would agree with mrrogers (on this item only :biggrin:) that in a small town one can 'earn' a label that never goes away. People talk and remember forever. Like you, I found no recent court activity to indicate drug use or dealing, however if he had been 'popped' for dealing a decade or two ago I wouldn't be suprised that he still carried a rep of a drug dealer.

I was suprised by the interview of a friend indicating that Mr. Romans had been invited to join the 'gang', Team Loco. To my knowledge, Team Loco is an off-road/sand rail club and a clothing line...not a gang.

Vince was a nice man, worked hard and loved his family. It's a tragic loss for all parties.

Part of the autopsy report was missing....a whole page of the toxicology report on Mr. Romans was not there, so there is no way to know that for certain. IMO

[TaraCrazyHair]

I did not know Mr. Romans. His autopsy didn't indicate current drug use, so unless he was very disciplined I don't see him as a current drug dealer. I would agree with mrrogers (on this item only :biggrin:) that in a small town one can 'earn' a label that never goes away. People talk and remember forever. Like you, I found no recent court activity to indicate drug use or dealing, however if he had been 'popped' for dealing a decade or two ago I wouldn't be suprised that he still carried a rep of a drug dealer.

I was suprised by the interview of a friend indicating that Mr. Romans had been invited to join the 'gang', Team Loco. To my knowledge, Team Loco is an off-road/sand rail club and a clothing line...not a gang.

Vince was a nice man, worked hard and loved his family. It's a tragic loss for all parties.


You live in St Johns?

Was this Team Loco gang the Mexican based one or am I confused?

[mina]

You live in St Johns?

Was this Team Loco gang the Mexican based one or am I confused?

Since she calls herself "eager gal" my guess is that she's trying to imply that she is form Eager, AZ, not St. Johns. Or maybe it means something else -- who knows?

[TaraCrazyHair]

When I first heard of this tragedy, it never occurred to me this child couldn't have done it, given that a lot of kids here are taught to hunt and are proficient with rifles. My absolute first thought was, 'what did Eryn tell this kid (overtly or inadvertently) to precipitate this?'

I realize this is not the consensus of this board. I can't speak to the mindset of people in SJ other than to say everyone is horrified still.

You think he killed his Dad so he could go live with his Mom?

Then why would he have killed Tim?

Why do it in broad daylight and not wait until his Dad was in bed sleeping?

Then it would have only taken one shot to the head and no resistance

[JusticeDawg©]

What was changed?

Don't know. They didn't give a reason to have it dismissed in the first one, maybe this one has a reason.

[Hawk]

I did not know Mr. Romans. His autopsy didn't indicate current drug use, so unless he was very disciplined I don't see him as a current drug dealer. I would agree with mrrogers (on this item only :biggrin:) that in a small town one can 'earn' a label that never goes away. People talk and remember forever. Like you, I found no recent court activity to indicate drug use or dealing, however if he had been 'popped' for dealing a decade or two ago I wouldn't be suprised that he still carried a rep of a drug dealer.

I was suprised by the interview of a friend indicating that Mr. Romans had been invited to join the 'gang', Team Loco. To my knowledge, Team Loco is an off-road/sand rail club and a clothing line...not a gang.

Vince was a nice man, worked hard and loved his family. It's a tragic loss for all parties.


It looks like this 'Team Loco' is just a bunch of folks going to the sand and having motor fun. A little rowdiness maybe, but not gang related. Anyone who has lived in a small remote town knows all about being 'labeled' for life.
I still don't know what a cousin brother is, unless it means your parents are cousins?

[JusticeDawg©]

You think he killed his Dad so he could go live with his Mom?

Then why would he have killed Tim?

Why do it in broad daylight and not wait until his Dad was in bed sleeping?

Then it would have only taken one shot to the head and no resistance


Makes more sense to do it while in bed sleeping. Could have taken out the spanking step-mom at the same time.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Don't know. They didn't give a reason to have it dismissed in the first one, maybe this one has a reason.

Could it be they had to clarify their intent to recharge him after he turned 18?

[muska]

The Motion to dismiss has been modified. Seems they changed some things. :shrug:

Where did you see that?

[JusticeDawg©]

Could it be they had to clarify their intent to recharge him after he turned 18?

Yes, and I'd LOVE to see an admission of that.

:cursing:

[Hawk]

Could it be they had to clarify their intent to recharge him after he turned 18?

They can charge him as an adult at 14 can't they?

[TaraCrazyHair]

Makes more sense to do it while in bed sleeping. Could have taken out the spanking step-mom at the same time.


And he would not have had to kill Tim who seemed to be just a side shot with no motive for murder

On the other hand ... Tim apparently holds motive for several people who would not minded to see him dead .. and then Vince became the side shot

[JusticeDawg©]

They can charge him as an adult at 14 can't they?

8 in AZ.
It has never been done, but they can.

[JusticeDawg©]

And he would not have had to kill Tim who seemed to be just a side shot with no motive for murder

On the other hand ... Tim apparently holds motive for several people who would not minded to see him dead .. and then Vince became the side shot

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Jacobtk]

Part of the autopsy report was missing....a whole page of the toxicology report on Mr. Romans was not there, so there is no way to know that for certain. IMO

Most likely redacted. That is the legal way of withholding information the state feels is not important to a case.

[Hawk]

Tomorrow should be an action day.
Like we were saying yesterday let's hope for some released audio. And at least one GOOD ruling.

[TaraCrazyHair]

They can charge him as an adult at 14 can't they?

yes, your probably right

A friend reminded me of the Lionel Tate case in Florida when he killed a girl "wrestling" when he was 8 or 9 .. and they waited until he was like 14 or 15 to try him and by then he gained weight, grown taller and more mature looking .. and the Jury no longer saw the actual boy but the almost man and convicted him of murder

He was sentenced to LWOP .. (then the DA worked hard to overturn it .. ect .. long sad story)

But the point was .. it was easier for the Jury to convict the older child opposed to the younger child ... because of the difference the years made

[Pag Boi]

I did not know Mr. Romans. His autopsy didn't indicate current drug use, so unless he was very disciplined I don't see him as a current drug dealer. I would agree with mrrogers (on this item only :biggrin:) that in a small town one can 'earn' a label that never goes away. People talk and remember forever. Like you, I found no recent court activity to indicate drug use or dealing, however if he had been 'popped' for dealing a decade or two ago I wouldn't be suprised that he still carried a rep of a drug dealer.

snipped for content.

Drug dealer DOESN"T = drug user. Seems to me that dealers high on their own goods might cause them to be careless and get busted. Oops. Maybe Tim was reformed.

A simple test of Tim's hair would tell LE the last time he did drugs. Of course they'd have to care first. JMOO

Tim's conviction & probatoin card were under his Reservation's jurisdiction. Odd that the San Carlos police knew about it. How big is San Carlos?

[shelby77]

It looks like this 'Team Loco' is just a bunch of folks going to the sand and having motor fun. A little rowdiness maybe, but not gang related. Anyone who has lived in a small remote town knows all about being 'labeled' for life.
I still don't know what a cousin brother is, unless it means your parents are cousins?


I did a lil research on the Indians, the whole Apache/Navajo thing back in the beginning, and IIRC, the Apaches do not differentiate between cousins and brothers, so cousin brother is the term used for either cousin or brother. So either his cousin or brother shot his truck.

Not sure why they don't make the distinction between the 2, very odd to me, perhaps somebody else here could explain more??

[TaraCrazyHair]

Drug dealer DOESN"T = drug user. Seems to me that dealers high on their own goods might cause them to be careless and get busted. Oops. Maybe Tim was reformed.

A simple test of Tim's hair would tell LE the last time he did drugs. Of course they'd have to care first. JMOO

Tim's conviction & probatoin card were under his Reservation's jurisdiction. Odd that the San Carlos police knew about it. How big is San Carlos?


Personally, I do not think it was a drug related murder

More like a sex related murder

Or a job related murder

Or a "you make me sick" related murder

But I really don't think drugs were the issue

[Hawk]

I did a lil research on the Indians, the whole Apache/Navajo thing back in the beginning, and IIRC, the Apaches do not differentiate between cousins and brothers, so cousin brother is the term used for either cousin or brother. So either his cousin or brother shot his truck.

Not sure why they don't make the distinction between the 2, very odd to me, perhaps somebody else here could explain more??

Thank you.
Even the police use the term in their reports. I've seen it on several 'First Americans' sites.
Being born and raised in the Blue Ridge Mountains I thought for sure it meant your parents are cousins. Not that anything like that goes on in the Blue Ridge...............

[JusticeDawg©]

Personally, I do not think it was a drug related murder

More like a sex related murder

Or a job related murder

Or a "you make me sick" related murder

But I really don't think drugs were the issue

I so totally agree. :thumbup:

[muska]

yes, your probably right

A friend reminded me of the Lionel Tate case in Florida when he killed a girl "wrestling" when he was 8 or 9 .. and they waited until he was like 14 or 15 to try him and by then he gained weight, grown taller and more mature looking .. and the Jury no longer saw the actual boy but the almost man and convicted him of murder

He was sentenced to LWOP .. (then the DA worked hard to overturn it .. ect .. long sad story)

But the point was .. it was easier for the Jury to convict the older child opposed to the younger child ... because of the difference the years made

Lionel Tate was 12 when the girl was killed. He was sentenced to LWOP when he was 14 but it was overturned and he was out and on probation after 5 or 6 or so years. He was a really big kid when the crime happened, over 150 pounds and that worked against him. Sadly, he is back in prison now - apparently juvenile detention did not work for him.

This happened more recently with Christopher Pittman. Very sad story too. It does seem to work in the prosecution's favor and against the young kids when the cases are put off until they're older.

[TaraCrazyHair]

I so totally agree. :thumbup:

It still amazes me how much information that the police were getting (and you know they were jotting their notes faster than a 747) and then suddenly told to stop because the boy confessed

Simply amazing!

They had at least 4 or 5 good leads to follow on when the door was slammed

[eagargal]

Eryn's an outsider. An easy target.

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO

[JusticeDawg©]

It still amazes me how much information that the police were getting (and you know they were jotting their notes faster than a 747) and then suddenly told to stop because the boy confessed

Simply amazing!

They had at least 4 or 5 good leads to follow on when the door was slammed

I know. :cursing:

[TaraCrazyHair]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO

If he really had a habit of walking around the blocks after school before he went home .. I would love to know the real reason

Was something happening at the house he did not want to see?

Just seems so very odd

[IAMME]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO


Wasn't in school the full day? On the day of the Murders? Huh?

[Hawk]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO

Didn't know he was accustomed to going to grandma's house. Change is hard, especially on a kid.
Maybe he didn't like going home to an empty house. Many small kids are afraid to even go into their own house alone. I can see where he'd rather be outside.
I thought maybe the local folks were pointing fingers at Eryn because she lives out of state.

How far is it from Mr. Romero's home to the bar Mr. Romans frequented?
And who is Jaylyn Romero?

[eagargal]

Wasn't in school the full day? On the day of the Murders? Huh?

A full day for a 3rd grader is 3:00 pm.

[eagargal]

Wasn't in school the full day? On the day of the Murders? Huh?

I'm sorry, now I see your confusion. I meant, prior to this school year, he wasn't in school the full day.

[IAMME]

A full day for a 3rd grader is 3:00 pm.


And they dont go a full day until 3rd grade????????? Do not tell my kid this, they'll be packing us up to move to AZ....

[Pag Boi]

Personally, I do not think it was a drug related murder

More like a sex related murder

Or a job related murder

Or a "you make me sick" related murder

But I really don't think drugs were the issue


I don't have a theory on what kind of murder it was. There are so many possibilities at this point. I was replying to the poster that seemed to me equate user and dealer. Altho I found the poster observation abt the trailer/lab out back curious.

Tim seemed to thrive on conflict JMOO There is certainly no shortage of POI's. But LE cancelled their investigation of others when the boy confessed. A whopping 20 hours on the double murder. How many of the clowns had ever investigated a homicide?

Is it too much to ask that the spouses could have been properly interrogated and investigated?

[TaraCrazyHair]

I'm sorry, now I see your confusion. I meant, prior to this school year, he wasn't in school the full day.

Second graders don't go to school full time?

Here only those in kindergarten go half days

[JusticeDawg©]

A full day for a 3rd grader is 3:00 pm.

What time did he get out then?

[Jacobtk]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO

It would make more sense for the boy to just go to where his mother was staying in St Johns than to kill his father and the housemate. His frustration with the change would be noticeable to everyone around him. His teachers would notice it, his friends and neighbors would notice it and at that age he is bound to have mentioned to someone, particularly his priest.

Considering that, the boy may have been wandering around trying to find his way to where his mother was staying in town.

[bkwits]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.


If he did it. JMHO


:smile:
Thank you for giving us this information. Do you happen to know what time CR would get off the school bus, ?

[TaraCrazyHair]

I don't have a theory on what kind of murder it was. There are so many possibilities at this point. I was replying to the poster that seemed to me equate user and dealer. Altho I found the poster observation abt the trailer/lab out back curious.

Tim seemed to thrive on conflict JMOO There is certainly no shortage of POI's. But LE cancelled their investigation of others when the boy confessed. A whopping 20 hours on the double murder. How many of the clowns had ever investigated a homicide?

Is it too much to ask that the spouses could have been properly interrogated and investigated?

Apparently, it was too much to ask for!

What about the spouse of the bartender he spent nights at the motel with?

[muska]

CR had previously spent a lot of time with his grandmother, as he was not in school the full day. With the new school year and longer hours in school, it made sense for him to come home after school rather than go to his grandmothers. I think Vince was trying to give his mom a break and felt he finally had a home where he could take care of his own. I think CR wasn't happy with the new arrangement and began to act out. I'm sure it caused a strain.

His punishment IIRC, also included no video games and TV. If he did walk around the neighborhood as he stated, he may have just brooded and got madder and madder. Kids from divorced parents often do have a 'grass is greener' mentality. That was my point; mom's recent visit + acting out + spanking + nothing to do at home + time to get mad + grass is greener = this.

If he did it. JMHO

How would any of this make Eryn in any way responsible? All she did was visit her son for the weekend.

What was he suppose to be doing while alone in the house for two hours if he wasn't suppose to watch TV or play video games?

To me, the kid just never sounded very mad.

[Pag Boi]

Thank you.
Even the police use the term in their reports. I've seen it on several 'First Americans' sites.
Being born and raised in the Blue Ridge Mountains I thought for sure it meant your parents are cousins. Not that anything like that goes on in the Blue Ridge...............


:lol: :lol:


eta: thx shelby77 for the info.

[JusticeDawg©]

I'm sorry, now I see your confusion. I meant, prior to this school year, he wasn't in school the full day.

But school until 3pm took up the time he had spent at grandma's.
His dad didn't take it away, 3rd grade did!

[bkwits]

Apparently, it was too much to ask for!

What about the spouse of the bartender he spent nights at the motel with?

Do you mean Candi? She was single, I thought.

[tif]

Lionel Tate was 12 when the girl was killed. He was sentenced to LWOP when he was 14 but it was overturned and he was out and on probation after 5 or 6 or so years. He was a really big kid when the crime happened, over 150 pounds and that worked against him. Sadly, he is back in prison now - apparently juvenile detention did not work for him.

This happened more recently with Christopher Pittman. Very sad story too. It does seem to work in the prosecution's favor and against the young kids when the cases are put off until they're older.

The really sad part of this was that the prosecution offered him a deal where he would plead guilty and spend 3 to 4 years in juvenile detention, but his mother refused.

[muska]

The really sad part of this was that the prosecution offered him a deal where he would plead guilty and spend 3 to 4 years in juvenile detention, but his mother refused.

I had forgotten about that. He's in prison now for holding up a delivery person; I think he got 30 years. Wasn't his mom some type of police officer? I keep hoping for a high profile success story out of the juvenile system........someone other kids could say 'hey he did okay,' but so far none I've heard about.

(Maybe the King brothers, say a prayer)

[IAMME]

Then what was she doing spanking another womans 8 year old son? Think about how humilating this was for him. My children's step father has never laid one hand on them except to hug them. Oh he has had some stern words with them, busted them doing things, etc, but never ever even THOUGHT about hitting them...NOR would I let him.

ITA the day my childrens step mother thinks she is big enough to hit one of my kids will be the day she gets a @$$ beating :angry:.......She can discipline them, she can set rules in her house, she can ground, and take away privileges, but if they need physical punishment THAT is up to their father and I, My children also know though that I expect them to respect her bc she is an adult and that they will be is serious trouble with MAMA if they dont......:sneaky:

ETA: My kids step mother also tried the "what happens here stays here" and then tried to tell me it was bc the kids were talking about ME at their house, and I informed her that I was their mother that they were not to be punished for talking about me, and that *I* wasnt doing anything that I was worried about them sharing with her or their father....and that if she wasn't then there shouldn't be a problem....that nipped that right in the bud.

[Hawk]

Then what was she doing spanking another womans 8 year old son? Think about how humilating this was for him. My children's step father has never laid one hand on them except to hug them. Oh he has had some stern words with them, busted them doing things, etc, but never ever even THOUGHT about hitting them...NOR would I let him.

Good for you and your husband.
When your closest confidant and friend has someone else to repeatedly do the dirty work for him, against you, it is extremely humiliating. Trust goes out the window. Hostilities mount.
Throw in an outsider rooming in a tiny house and taking up your space with his stuff. Add home alone two days a week. Birth mom offers a better deal (even if only imagined).
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

[Pag Boi]

Apparently, it was too much to ask for!

What about the spouse of the bartender he spent nights at the motel with?

Do you mean Candy? TA, cop for 29 years, didn't even know if Candy was married. She told BB she didn't think to ask :rolleyes: Is she married?

Or do you mean Misty with the crazy BF?

Candy partied w/3 men until 5am that am per TA's interviews.

IIRC, one of the investigators went to the 2 motels in town trying to find out if Tim was/had ever stayed there. One motel couldn't find any record of him & clerk didn't know him. The other motel clerk said he stayed there a few nights a few months ago (so to give V&T a honeymoon period. Classy!)

[Hawk]

OK...it's been driving me nuts, so I finally looked it up.

A "cousin brother" simply means a male cousin as opposed to a "cousin sister" which would mean a female cousin. It is common usage in Native American culture.

In many other languages, there are two different words for female and male cousins, but not in English, so they use that.

Also, from what I gather, in some Native American tribes, a cousin is considered as close a kin as a sibling.

Thought I would share that.

Excellent research. Guess that clears it up. Makes sense too, and kinda' nice. Unless you hate your cousin, of course. There might be an Apache word for that as well.

[Pag Boi]

But school until 3pm took up the time he had spent at grandma's.
His dad didn't take it away, 3rd grade did!

If he was in school until 3pm, how could he have been getting off the bus at 3pm? Avila claims she called him on that during her 1st interview (that she claims she didn't record). In the words of Judge Roca, C must have been "cloning himself" :)

[TaraCrazyHair]

Maybe I read the interview report wrong but I swear I read that the one was married?

Not Misty -- the other one?

At first it was no, not married but later it said the one was?

[JusticeDawg©]

Excellent research. Guess that clears it up. Makes sense too, and kinda' nice. Unless you hate your cousin, of course. There might be an Apache word for that as well.

:ohmy:

:tongueside:

:lol:

[JusticeDawg©]

If he was in school until 3pm, how could he have been getting off the bus at 3pm? Avila claims she called him on that during her 1st interview (that she claims she didn't record). In the words of Judge Roca, C must have been "cloning himself" :)

I remember that.

I like that Judge.

Well....I'll let you know tomorrow how much I like that Judge. :wink:

[Pag Boi]

Maybe I read the interview report wrong but I swear I read that the one was married?

Not Misty -- the other one?

At first it was no, not married but later it said the one was?


LOL. It's not you. If the detectives don't know if Candy was married, why sweat it? J/K. Candy's marital has not been confirmed IIRC. But she allegedly had one proposal from a married man.

[Hawk]

I don't know of any Apache words for cousins you hate, but I certainly know of a few English ones.

:wink:

Yeah. We have about 10 English words for everything.

I have a cousin with two big toes on his left foot. He looks funny as h... wearing flip-flops.

[Pag Boi]

Maybe I read the interview report wrong but I swear I read that the one was married?

Not Misty -- the other one?

At first it was no, not married but later it said the one was?


LOL. It's not you. If the detectives don't know if Candy was married, why sweat it? J/K. Candy's marital has not been confirmed IIRC. But she allegedly had one proposal from a married man.

[Jacobtk]

If he was in school until 3pm, how could he have been getting off the bus at 3pm? Avila claims she called him on that during her 1st interview (that she claims she didn't record). In the words of Judge Roca, C must have been "cloning himself" :)

Perhaps this was in Neckels report and I missed it, however, I do not recall her stating that she interviewed the bus driver or called the school to find out when school got out and when the boy got on the bus. He may have been on the bus for longer than he realized, especially if the bus dropped off other kids who live farther away first.

[Jacobtk]

I am so nervous about tomorrow. Can someone remind me exactly what happens tomorrow? This is the status hearing right? What is the judge planning to rule on, if anything?

It is supposed to be a status hearing. The judge will hear the motion to dismiss the one charge and perhaps rule on it. The evidence might be discussed, particularly if Brewer and Woods find any issue with the reports.

[Hawk]

Perhaps this was in Neckels report and I missed it, however, I do not recall her stating that she interviewed the bus driver or called the school to find out when school got out and when the boy got on the bus. He may have been on the bus for longer than he realized, especially if the bus dropped off other kids who live farther away first.

Mr. Brewer asked her that, in the first hearing I believe, and she said she didn't know what time the boy got off the bus, but would check.

[Hawk]

I am so nervous about tomorrow. Can someone remind me exactly what happens tomorrow? This is the status hearing right? What is the judge planning to rule on, if anything?

I've been thinking about this little boy all week. My new foster daughter just settled in and she has 7 older siblings. The oldest 2 are in prison or juvie. The next 2 are in a residential home. The youngest 4 are all split up in different foster homes. These older kids never stood a chance. They grew up in an environment where no one payed attention to them and now it is too late for the oldest ones. Now because of the carelessness of adults, they are now in a system that is incapable of rehabilitating them. It is so sad that these kids were raised to fail. The parents should be accountable for ruining their lives, but of course, they are not.

My little girl is about to turn 4 and has been in foster care for 2 years. Hopefully, this is her last and we will be able to adopt her, which is our hope. She is young enough to be saved. She is so adorable and cute and full of life and joy and love. That said, if kept in the situation she was originally in, I am sure her future would be very different.

What these adults are doing with this boy right now will affect him (and ultimately society) for the rest of his life. Even if he did it (which I do not believe for one second) locking him up in juvie will not do him any good whatsover. He was left alone in a powderkeg and everyone is shocked that it blew up!

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really hoping and praying for the best tomorrow. They need to let this child go to his mom and get on with his life.

Good luck, and God bless you and your family. The little girl is extremely fortunate to have you!

[eagargal]

Didn't know he was accustomed to going to grandma's house. Change is hard, especially on a kid.
Maybe he didn't like going home to an empty house. Many small kids are afraid to even go into their own house alone. I can see where he'd rather be outside.
I thought maybe the local folks were pointing fingers at Eryn because she lives out of state.

How far is it from Mr. Romero's home to the bar Mr. Romans frequented?
And who is Jaylyn Romero?

It is about 3 miles...what are your thoughts?

[Hawk]

It is about 3 miles...what are your thoughts?

We've suspected everyone in and out of Apache county of committing the murders.
Some of us are wondering if Mr. Romans was the target why didn't the killer get him at the bar. I'm guessing it's a little ways out of town and kinda dark at night. Seems that would be a more logical homicide location than Mr. Romero's home at quitting time during daylight.

[eagargal]

Second graders don't go to school full time?

Here only those in kindergarten go half days

My kids are grown; it used to be the grade-school kids started at 7:45 and 1st and 2nd graders got out around 2:00.

[Jacobtk]

Mr. Brewer asked her that, in the first hearing I believe, and she said she didn't know what time the boy got off the bus, but would check.

Her report was done by then, so I suppose she never bothered to.

[ChildsVOICE]

I ran into Hon. C. Richard ("Dick") Cranwell today.

http://www.vademocrats.org/pages/party_chair/

I gave him the link to the boy's myspace page.

Let's hope he takes some action to help.

:thumbsup:

[Pag Boi]

Perhaps this was in Neckels report and I missed it, however, I do not recall her stating that she interviewed the bus driver or called the school to find out when school got out and when the boy got on the bus. He may have been on the bus for longer than he realized, especially if the bus dropped off other kids who live farther away first.

Exactly! C was never asked the time and never provided the times. He only generalized about time, i.e. cried for 30 mins, walked for a while like 5 or 10 loops.

TA asked C in 1st interview what happened. He says he came home to find them there. TA immediately says that can't be true b/c bus dropped you at 3pm and the men didn't get home til 5. She didn't have any idea if what she was saying was true.

Then on 11/7, DN tells BB that C got dropped off @ 3 but she hasn't been able to investigate it & make a determination if right. WTH? She was a detective for one day and a school resource officer for 2 years. She couldn't even pick up the phone & make a faint stab at investigating the time line. Sorry excuse for LE that she is. JMOO

[Jacobtk]

If I called the school and told them I planned on moving into the area and wished to know what time the school let students out, I am absolutely certain they would tell me. If I inquired about the bus service and the approximate time my children would get home, they would probably tell me that as well.

The lackluster investigative process done on this case makes me wonder just what is in the report. Judging by the disclosure date, the boy's attorneys probably got the full report sometime late last week or maybe even earlier this week. If they found any problems, I would suspect that they would bring that up at tomorrow's hearing. Based on the little that we know, I think they have enough to make a reasonable case for dismissing both charges on the basis questionable investigation process.

[Pag Boi]

Perhaps this was in Neckels report and I missed it, however, I do not recall her stating that she interviewed the bus driver or called the school to find out when school got out and when the boy got on the bus. He may have been on the bus for longer than he realized, especially if the bus dropped off other kids who live farther away first.

Exactly! C was never asked the time and never provided the times. He only generalized about time, i.e. cried for 30 mins, walked for a while like 5 or 10 loops.

TA asked C in 1st interview what happened. He says he came home to find them there. TA immediately says that can't be true b/c bus dropped you at 3pm and the men didn't get home til 5. She didn't have any idea if what she was saying was true.

Then on 11/7, DN tells BB that C got dropped off @ 3 but she hasn't been able to investigate it & make a determination if right. WTH? She was a detective for one day and a school resource officer for 2 years. She couldn't even pick up the phone & make a faint stab at investigating the time line. Sorry excuse for LE that she is. JMOO

[ChildsVOICE]

Didn't he say he sat down with his dad? If someone had just been shot 4 times in a small area like a stairwell couldn't someone have contaminated their clothes by sitting down on the stairwell? The GSR has to go somewhere...why not the stairwell?

I tried a little experiment at home.

I stood at the bottom of my stairs and put my right foot on the second step up the stairs (from the very bottom "landing"). My left foot stayed on the landing.
I held my mop with a handle half way down the stick to resemble a rifle. If I were to eject the shell, it would fall on the third step. Then when I took one more step up the staircase and reached one foot onto step 3, if I were to holding a rifle, the casing would fall on step 4. It was a very easy and simple positioning of my body.

I am hypothesising this is how the shooter positioned him/her self to shoot VR. I think they steadied him/her self by making a lounging stance.

Try it. You'll see what I mean.

I was experimenting with the casings' positions found on the 3rd and 4th step from the landing near VR.

[ChildsVOICE]

Didn't he say he sat down with his dad? If someone had just been shot 4 times in a small area like a stairwell couldn't someone have contaminated their clothes by sitting down on the stairwell? The GSR has to go somewhere...why not the stairwell?

The boy said he sat "next" to his dad. Later he explained further by describing the landing. He talks about the bottom stairs and the "little hallway thing" which I believe he means to be the landing.

When I did a little experiment to see how the shooter would be standing to get the casings on the 3rd and 4th step it was a simple lounge from the landing (as an adult). I just reached one leg up two stairs. That made a perfect little "stand" that I could use to steady my 'rifle' (mop).

The boy would have been laying right where the shooter had been standing to shoot VR.

Also, this would be consistent with my theory that he would not have climbed over his bleeding father who was sprawled out blocking the staircase. Plus, what need would he have to climb over him to get upstairs. I can plainly see why it would not even cross his mind to go upstairs.

If he was grossed out and fearful he would just drop where he was and do what he said he did. This explanation (stopping in his tracks and just laying down and crying) is perfectly logical to an innocent boy finding his dead and bloody father.

These were carpeted stairs.

I wonder if anyone took GPR samples of the carpeting in the upper hallway and the #3 and #4 stairs and middle landing?

[bkwits]

I am so nervous about tomorrow. Can someone remind me exactly what happens tomorrow? This is the status hearing right? What is the judge planning to rule on, if anything?

I've been thinking about this little boy all week. My new foster daughter just settled in and she has 7 older siblings. The oldest 2 are in prison or juvie. The next 2 are in a residential home. The youngest 4 are all split up in different foster homes. These older kids never stood a chance. They grew up in an environment where no one payed attention to them and now it is too late for the oldest ones. Now because of the carelessness of adults, they are now in a system that is incapable of rehabilitating them. It is so sad that these kids were raised to fail. The parents should be accountable for ruining their lives, but of course, they are not.

My little girl is about to turn 4 and has been in foster care for 2 years. Hopefully, this is her last and we will be able to adopt her, which is our hope. She is young enough to be saved. She is so adorable and cute and full of life and joy and love. That said, if kept in the situation she was originally in, I am sure her future would be very different.

What these adults are doing with this boy right now will affect him (and ultimately society) for the rest of his life. Even if he did it (which I do not believe for one second) locking him up in juvie will not do him any good whatsover. He was left alone in a powderkeg and everyone is shocked that it blew up!

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really hoping and praying for the best tomorrow. They need to let this child go to his mom and get on with his life.



I SALUTE YOU FOR THE GOOD THAT YOU ARE DOING FOR THE CHIDLREN :patriot:

[Jacobtk]

The boy would have been laying right where the shooter had been standing to shoot VR.

Also, this would be consistent with my theory that he would not have climbed over his bleeding father who was sprawled out blocking the staircase. Plus, what need would he have to climb over him to get upstairs. I can plainly see why it would not even cross his mind to go upstairs.

That seems most probable, particularly the latter bit. The boy had no particular reason to go over his father. He could have shot the man in the back from where he was. Checking upstairs is more consistent with someone checking to see what Vincent was heading for or to see if anyone else was in the home.

I wonder if anyone took GPR samples of the carpeting in the upper hallway and the #3 and #4 stairs and middle landing?

I am going to give them the benefit of doubt (only because I find it difficult to believe any police officer actually behaves like the ones from Police Academy) and assume they did. What I think is more important is that if they intend to use the GPR as evidence that they at least checked the patterns to see if they match what comes from the boy's gun. However, I think it is likely that the state simply requested the testing for GPR for the boy's clothing and never bothered to attempt to match patterns.

[ChildsVOICE]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

Do you have links to back these comments. I'd be interested, particularly, in these links
"He was somewhat of a bully at school" and "he admitted both publicly and privately" .

[JusticeDawg©]

I ran into Hon. C. Richard ("Dick") Cranwell today.

http://www.vademocrats.org/pages/party_chair/

I gave him the link to the boy's myspace page.

Let's hope he takes some action to help.

:thumbsup:

Did he have any kind of reaction?

[JusticeDawg©]

New Thread. Come on over.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=348420

[IAMME]

Exactly! C was never asked the time and never provided the times. He only generalized about time, i.e. cried for 30 mins, walked for a while like 5 or 10 loops.

LOL my daughter is 7, a yr younger than him and is just learning how to tell time.....and not really "getting" it yet, do we even know if he could accurately tell time????? I tell her to wait five minutes for something and she asks me every 30 seconds if it is "time yet" on road trips to gma's it is are we there yet???? from both her and her 11 yo sister, they ask at least every half hour after being told repeatedly that it will take 4 hours to get there.....kids dont have the same concept of time we do, and even adults in traumatic situations dont have a correct concept of time!!!

[ChildsVOICE]

cr has been proven innocent if it ever goes to trial you ll hear how
according to a source speaking on the basis of anynomity

Any chance the boy will be able to hear those words if it does not go to trial?

I, often, wonder what he thinks now that Avila and her lies got ahold of him?

Would be nice if he could hear those words!

[ChildsVOICE]

I feel an arrest will be made. They know who.

Hey! They need a smiley on here that has it crossing its fingers!

Somebody email the Smiley people!

:laugh: