1/26 to 1/28

[JD1974]

Wasn't it Avila during the interview that said to the boy that if he shot the gun there would be a LOT of GSR, not just a little bit? I would think a LOT would mean thousands of particles. I would think a little bit would be a few dozen.
:shrug:

Yes she did. It bothers me that he had such a small amount after 10 shots fired? It seems more of a transfer to me, from where I can only speculate.

[GentleBreeze]

How can you be sure? When did they take his clothes? I thought it was the next day, he came into contact with a lot of people if that is true.

All I am sure of.... that even after all the hugging and touching the night before he still had dozens of gunshot particles found on his clothing that weren't taken until the next day.

[wolfi_2]

I think that will depend on which side it bolsters. If other evidence is there then the gunshot residue found on his clothing will carry more weight. It will be just one piece of circumstantial evidence.

imoo

The problem I have with that argument is: They got only the boys clothes, and that is not objective, his stepmom´s clothes can also have this residue on their clothes! If not OK, but they didn´t test it to make it sure!

[GentleBreeze]

Nope she said younger people fight all the time, well in my case that isn't true..nor my friends that are my age. We do not fight just to fight, usually it takes more than usual lol

I didn't say ALL the time. I said they can have spats often.

I never said they fight just to fight either although I do think some love to argue about the slightest thing and make mountains out of mole hills.

imoo

[muska]

Yes she did. It bothers me that he had such a small amount after 10 shots fired? It seems more of a transfer to me, from where I can only speculate.

The expert said the amount found on the boy was insignificant and to be expected considering the boy was in the house. Since he's the expert and has no known connection to the case (he's from Michigan),I'll go with his opinion for now.

I did google him and he seems to have quite a lot of experience.

[GentleBreeze]

You live in Philly? :w00t:

Not hardly. I have never even been to Philly.

Why?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

IMO it was found exactly where it would be expected to be found if he were the shooter...not walking through some cloud of smoke. It wasn't found on his butt from sitting either.

I have shot .22 rifles since I was 7 years old. I have never seen smoke come out of the barrel and I even did repetitive shots in competition shoots. :confused:

imo

[ChildsVOICE]

Even the outside expert not connected to the case, says:

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

They did find dozens of particles on his clothing.

He also stated : Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants."

But that is not the case here at all. Gunshot residue was present.

imoo


It's the AMOUNT of gun shot residue that is important.

ONLY some "dozens" NOT "tens of thousands" were found

then consider "ten of thousands" times 10 (shots)= hundreds of thousands would be expected to be on the boy's clothing. It would be all over his clothing. They certainly wouldn't find JUST a few dozen.

The few dozen could have gotten there just by being next to his father, laying on the same carpeted stairs where the shooter had been standing, being in the smoke filled room immediately after the shots, OR from when the boy had used any of the guns to target shoot on previous occasions but the GPR didn't wash out of the clothing.

The MISSING hundreds of thousands of particles shows he didn't shoot a gun 10 times.

[muska]

The problem I have with that argument is: They got only the boys clothes, and that is not objective, his stepmom´s clothes can also have this residue on their clothes! If not OK, but they didn´t test it to make it sure!

Maybe they didn't take them because they didn't want to know. If Tiffany's clothes had an equal amount of GSR, they couldn't very well use that amount against the boy, could they?

Of course, that line of reasoning may be giving to much credit for forethought.

[JD1974]

The expert said the amount found on the boy was insignificant and to be expected considering the boy was in the house. Since he's the expert and has no known connection to the case (he's from Michigan),I'll go with his opinion for now.

I did google him and he seems to have quite a lot of experience.


I will too and not only because he is from Michigan...:laugh:

[wolfi_2]

you're wrong

imo


Why is she wrong ?

[JD1974]

Then why wasn't it found on the back of the boy? On his shoulders?

Why was it found in the places it would be found if he had shot the weapon????



Do we really know what he did, for arguments sake say he did come in and see his dad on the steps. So how would a person lean down to look or maybe even try to move a loved one in that situation...leaning on knees on the step (gsr on pants) trying to turn over loved one, or even touching loved ones clothes (gsr on shirt). Yeah all speculation but because no one asked this kid pertinent questions all we can do at the moment is speculate.

[bkwits]

I believe the boy did it too.

It sad to me that many don't even care if he did it, they want him to get a free pass reguardless.

It is sad to ME that you have so little compassion for this child. :sad:

[GentleBreeze]

I have a few questions for the guiltys that are really just for curiosity's sake. I am trying to understand where you guys are coming from. If you wouldn't mind, could you answer the following questions?

1.) Do you think it is possible that someone other than the boy committed the crime?
2.) Do you think it is appropriate to leave an 8 year old home alone for several hours with weapons and ammo in the house?
3.) Do you think it is appropriate that Tiffany spanked her step son?
4.) Do you think it is appropriate to have a grown man living in your home that has a wife and a fiance and spends his evenings in the bar? This man sleeps in the room directly across from your 8 year old son.
5.) Do you think Tiffany and Vince were happily married?
6.) Do you think Tanya knew about the affair?
7.) If so, was she OK with it?
8.) Do you agree that TR had a lot of other people with motive to kill him besides the boy?
9.) Do you think it is appropriate that an 8 year old is shackled?
10.) Do you think the SJPD did a thorough investigation?
11.) Do you think the SJPD and the Prosecution is still investigating other suspects?

I have more...these are just off the top of my head.

Thanks!

1. If the gun was not the weapon used and the casings weren't fired from the chipmunk gun and his fingerprints aren't found overlayed over any other fingerprint that may have been there then I think that possibly someone else may have done the crime. But I have seen nothing that points away from this boy, yet.

2. No, I do not think it is appropriate to leave an 8 year old child alone, however it wasn't against the laws in Arizona to do so. I am not sure several hours were involved. We have no definite time when he got off the bus and his dad was there around 4:47.

3. I would not spank a stepchild especially when first marrying their father but each family has a right to their own ground rules even if I disagree with them. I guess it would depend on how long Tiffany was in his life and seen as a mother figure to him.

4. I doubt that this boy even knew that Tim had a girlfriend and what a boarder does outside of the home away from the family would be of no consequence.

5. I think they loved each other and it was a new marriage that can take some adjustments.

6. No, I don't.

7. Cant answer because I feel she had no clue about the affair that was taking place 170 miles away from her.

8. I see no motives for others to have done this right at the Romero home in broad daylight. Others if they had motives would have done this in a more secluded environment.

9. I think they have continued their investigation and have interviewed others and reinterviewed others.

10. Yes, I do, for if they don't, they know that the defense will.

The main key to me that he did this is the tight time line.

imo

[ChildsVOICE]

JusticeDawg & others,

Thank You for spending so much of your time and effort trying to figure this all out and for supporting this little fellow.

You all have become very dear to my heart. I'm so glad your doing what you are because it really helps me to continue working on the site.

You lift my spirts!...Especially when you spit on your screen!:laugh:

[GentleBreeze]

There is no "missing" hundreds of thousands of particles.

IMO the GSR PATTERN indicates he was the shooter.


Right. Even the outside expert didn't say thousands of gunshot particles would be found but it would be dozens of particles found on his clothing.

imoo

[JD1974]

Honestly if they would of even talked to any other suspects I would maybe wonder if he did it. Yet they never questioned anyone thouroughly...why is that? IMO as I have said before I think the DA seen this as an opportunity to get his 15 min of fame, he just didn't realize the backlash after releasing the video of the "confession" so now he has to save face and attempt to actually prove this kids did this instead of people just believing he did based on the confession. So far he is failing and making himself look worse by wanting a judgement on his motion to dismiss before the competency is finished...to me that shows he doesn't want justice he wants another notch in his belt. If this kid is incompetent age wise then it has to be dismissed with prejudice, he is trying to get around the law.

[JD1974]

I usually reserve my compassion for the victims. Don't you?

His age doesn't matter to me when I look at the circumstances and evidence surrounding this case.

If this child did this, I can't see how coddling and excusing it will benefit him in anyway. If this boy did what I believe he did....he doesn't need to be receiving tons of gifts from strangers, encouragement and support from people telling him that he's incapable of it and doesn't deserve to be held accountable for his actions.

IMO He would need intensive inpatient therapy for YEARS and I hope he gets it.


So if age doesn't matter to you, do you think the 4 year old should be charged for shooting the babysitter? I mean my 4 year old knows right from wrong, this 4 year old most likely does also.

I do agree that if he DID do this he does need therapy, but can you honestly say a 9 year old should be sent to juvenile?

[JD1974]

One other thing, if he wasn't capable shouldn't he be encouraged?

[GentleBreeze]

Honestly if they would of even talked to any other suspects I would maybe wonder if he did it. Yet they never questioned anyone thouroughly...why is that? IMO as I have said before I think the DA seen this as an opportunity to get his 15 min of fame, he just didn't realize the backlash after releasing the video of the "confession" so now he has to save face and attempt to actually prove this kids did this instead of people just believing he did based on the confession. So far he is failing and making himself look worse by wanting a judgment on his motion to dismiss before the competency is finished...to me that shows he doesn't want justice he wants another notch in his belt. If this kid is incompetent age wise then it has to be dismissed with prejudice, he is trying to get around the law.

15 minutes of fame? There isn't a DA in this country that would want this case. DAs seek justice for the murder victims in their county. Justice will most likely be denied for the victims, as well as all the victims' family members and friends who mourn their deaths and will always be haunted that justice never came.

If the negative attitude would change this DA and he was just in it for his 15 minutes of fame he darn sure wouldn't go forward trying the best he can to get some semblance of justice for the victims, who are now voiceless.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Of course he did.
That woman has now taken that page of her site down too. :lol::lol:

Guess they don't know how quick we are.

Quick? :confused: That site has been up for months.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Where is the post about the fax now?

I don't know. I haven't looked for it.

imoo

[JD1974]

Yes. Absolutely.

Killing two men warrants far more than a time out.


Ok, so why is it that an adult who has the mentality of an 8 year old isn't mentally competent to stand trial, yet an 8 year old with the mentality within the range of an 8 year old can?

[dgfred]

I don't think we know if he has recanted. Perhaps he has to Wood/Brewer. Or to his family.
The time line puts him there though. Everyone knows he found the bodies. And then there was the 'interrogation'.

But probably the worst thing that happened against the boy was when Chief Melnick told the grandma that the boy had been charged. She became very upset and said "If any kid is capable of doing this it's (the boy). Grandpa agreed.
Of course she also said that she knew something like this would happen because "They were too hard on ..(the boy). I think that was what Chief Melnick went on more than anything else, in addition to the 'confession'.
And later a CPS worker claimed that he asked her, "Don't you want to know why I did it?"

Dang, I hadn't even heard of this grandparent angle. They sure helped out the boy didn't they :thumbdown: ???

Got any links about this?

[dgfred]

Right. Even the outside expert didn't say thousands of gunshot particles would be found but it would be dozens of particles found on his clothing.

imoo

Couldn't he have that much GSR just from being inside the house and near his dad for a short time?

[dgfred]

Chief Melnick told the grandparents "CR confessed to killing both men", they freaked. They believed it was a "true" confession.

Things have changed since they found out the truth .:thumbup:

Thanks for setting me straight pal! :thumbup:

[wolfi_2]

Yes. Absolutely.

Killing two men warrants far more than a time out.

To incarnate an 8 year old for years, without social contact to other children of the same age, is abuse; to withdraw any love from a kid is abuse; only noncontact visits with his mom is abuse; no freedom for under aged children is abuse. That all is not justice for the victim's, it's revenge! -So what do you expect if he once will be released when he is sentenced for a long time? I think, that would be not a normal human being!

[dgfred]

I have shot .22 rifles since I was 7 years old. I have never seen smoke come out of the barrel and I even did repetitive shots in competition shoots. :confused:

imo

I have (bolt action too) and some smoke does come out of the barrel
especially where the shell ejects from.

[GentleBreeze]

The boy never said he hugged his dead father. Kneeling would result in GSR below his knees only.

AND didn't he say he sat beside his father's side for 30 minutes? Was GSR found saturated on the seat of his pants?

imoo

[muska]

Does anyone really think this kid will be a safer person when he gets out?

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/centralsouthernarizona/story/Douglas-boy-who-killed-mom-ordered-to-juvenile/tqlVWMF72EC7oUr4fv1V8Q.cspx

There has to be a better way.

[GentleBreeze]

Rubbing up against the door by Tim, and on walls and steps by his dad, yes.


How did he rub up against the outside of the door where Tim was? When he went in the door, Tim was on the outside of the metal screen security door, not between the security door and the main entry door, where he said he went through. :confused:

[dgfred]

AND didn't he say he sat beside his father's side for 30 minutes? Was GSR found saturated on the seat of his pants?

imoo


Why would it be saturated on the seat of his pants anyway? If not much comes out... stated earlier and we are not sure exactly where the father was shot? I would expect only small amounts on the boy anyway, shooter or not. Really not sure what you are debating.

[Hawk]

15 minutes of fame? There isn't a DA in this country that would want this case. DAs seek justice for the murder victims in their county. Justice will most likely be denied for the victims, as well as all the victims' family members and friends who mourn their deaths and will always be haunted that justice never came.

If the negative attitude would change this DA and he was just in it for his 15 minutes of fame he darn sure wouldn't go forward trying the best he can to get some semblance of justice for the victims, who are now voiceless.

imoo

If this guy isn't interested in the attention he's getting from this once in a lifetime case, why isn't he at his new job, working for the people who elected him and who are now paying his salary?
I don't understand how he's legally allowed to do this.
Just asking.

http://brad4countyattorney.com/

[GentleBreeze]

Why would it be saturated on the seat of his pants anyway? If not much comes out... stated earlier and we are not sure exactly where the father was shot? I would expect only small amounts on the boy anyway, shooter or not. Really not sure what you are debating.

Posters have been saying huge amounts come out.

We have been debating all morning about 100s of thousands of gunshot particles would be found. So if that is true, then surely right around the victim, which usually has the most gunshot residue found on them since they were the one fired at, it seems very logical if he was in that location for any given length of time the backside of his clothing would be saturated with it.

[GentleBreeze]

If this guy isn't interested in the attention he's getting from this once in a lifetime case, why isn't he at his new job, working for the people who elected him and who are now paying his salary?
I don't understand how he's legally allowed to do this.
Just asking.

http://brad4countyattorney.com/

I thought he has been selected as a Special Prosecutor on this case.

I am sure it is perfectly legal or Wood would be standing on his head.

imoo

[Cherishlove]

The point is, the GSR didn't rule the boy out.

It's another piece of circumstantial evidence that points to the boy as the shooter.

imoGSR would of been on his clothing either way, it's just that there was not much GSR on his clothing that points more to his innocence, I feel.

[dgfred]

Posters have been saying huge amounts come out.

We have been debating all morning about 100s of thousands of gunshot particles would be found. So if that is true, then surely right around the victim, which usually has the most gunshot residue found on them since they were the one fired at, it seems very logical if he was in that location for any given length of time the backside of his clothing would be saturated with it.

No, it was stated that a 22 has been shot many times... and NEVER saw
any smoke coming from the barrel.

I don't agree with your post... we don't know where the shots were fired from exactly, or the exact location of the victims when hit. Too many unknowns to 'guess' on the GSR. It is right that the GSR doesn't rule him out, but it doesn't rule him IN either.

[mrrogers]

[QUOTE=ChildsVOICE;12707609]Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk
See page #8.
http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...oad/womack.pdf
End Quote by Hawk

childsVOICE:
See referenced link above.

its a semi auto and any one could have used it and left crs gun in plain sight but the bullet patterns wouldnt match unless crs gun was used:w00t:
its more plausible the number of shots was done with a semi auto than a single shot in the time indicated
if they wore gloves theyd leave no fingerprints.
i think whoever did this did have it planned out and with a semi auto it would be alot faster
the tests should tell which gun it was each guns barrel has a unique
pattern that can be matched to bullets shot thru it
pea shooter is a slang term given to any small caliber rifle even a pellet gun

[Cherishlove]

Does anyone really think this kid will be a safer person when he gets out?

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/centralsouthernarizona/story/Douglas-boy-who-killed-mom-ordered-to-juvenile/tqlVWMF72EC7oUr4fv1V8Q.cspx

There has to be a better way.I don't know too much about this story but wasn't he abused by his Mom, and was the gun his Mother's gun???? Parents who leave guns unlocked in there home and a child gets ahold of it they should be held responsible. She's not alive but if you ask me if she left the gun there she is responsible. Too bad he wasn't taken away from her prior to this if she was abusing him.

[mrrogers]

If this guy isn't interested in the attention he's getting from this once in a lifetime case, why isn't he at his new job, working for the people who elected him and who are now paying his salary?
I don't understand how he's legally allowed to do this.
Just asking.

http://brad4countyattorney.com/

a post on wmicentral.com a while back said hes a shark
look at his behavior he doesnt care about justice for cr he just wants
to make a name for himself and he has A++++++

[mrrogers]

No, it was stated that a 22 has been shot many times... and NEVER saw
any smoke coming from the barrel.

I don't agree with your post... we don't know where the shots were fired from exactly, or the exact location of the victims when hit. Too many unknowns to 'guess' on the GSR. It is right that the GSR doesn't rule him out, but it doesn't rule him IN either.

they only found 60 particles of gsr on cr as much as him and vincent shot
he could have got those walking around the house. if hed shot the 10 shots thered be alot more on him :w00t:

[Hawk]

No, it was stated that a 22 has been shot many times... and NEVER saw
any smoke coming from the barrel.

I don't agree with your post... we don't know where the shots were fired from exactly, or the exact location of the victims when hit. Too many unknowns to 'guess' on the GSR. It is right that the GSR doesn't rule him out, but it doesn't rule him IN either.

There's always 'smoke' from the end of a barrel when a gun is fired. It may not be very visible, especially in a .22, but there's always a bit of unburned powder. There's more, though, from the spent casings, causing the GSR to scatter went the shell is ejected. When you shoot a single shot that residue would be all over the hand you used to load with. Of course they didn't test the boys hands the day of the murder.

[Cherishlove]

Wow. So if the boy bashed her head in with a baseball bat his mother bought him, it would still be her fault. Lovely.No she should not have been abusing him though but if he used her gun it's her fault for leaving it out a loaded gun and it should be against the law there in Arizona to have guns/ammo unlocked sorry it just should. Why are you changing the story here it wasn't a baseball bat it was a gun used.

[dgfred]

There's always 'smoke' from the end of a barrel when a gun is fired. It may not be very visible, especially in a .22, but there's always a bit of unburned powder. There's more, though, from the spent casings, causing the GSR to scatter went the shell is ejected. When you shoot a single shot that residue would be all over the hand you used to load with. Of course they didn't test the boys hands the day of the murder.


That is exactly what I was saying... thanks. So it doesn't rule him in or out right? Not generous amounts, but some GSR.

[Hawk]

Justice can only come when the true facts of the murders are known. To suspect the boy isn't being mean spirited. After all he is the defendant.
The victims families and friends deserve compassion as well, and need to know the truth.
I don't see how us considering every possible angle of the circumstances surrounding the case is detrimental to anyone. It may even prove helpful. Who knows, it might have been already.

The age argument is, in a way, a separate debate.

Just my opinion.

[mrrogers]

There is no "missing" hundreds of thousands of particles.

IMO the GSR PATTERN indicates he was the shooter.

60 particles of gsr is far too little to have from 10 shots.
gsr can remain on clothes even after they have been washed so
i really dont think thats a trustworthy indictment of cr
somebody said it wouldnt take that many shots to kill the men.
true but if he wants to disguise his ability he could have just shot em
that much to throw investigators off the trail. whats the probablility that an 8 year old could have made all those head shots. small id say

[Cherishlove]

I hope he gets it too. He will definately need it because of all the hateful reation from people who do not know him, do not know for a fact he did it, have no recourse but to go out of their way to try, confict and sentence him on their own. If he is found innocent, it will be so sad that all his suffering and the damage done to his mental well being has been contributed to by folks who don't care about him as a human being and a child who will learn not to trust a soul. People behaving in such a manner does not bring back the victims. It just creates more infighting and discord and not to mention the hurt and anguish heaped on the the surviving loved ones left behind in this tragedy. The dead will not and cannot be brought back to us no matter how much people say they care about the victims but not the boy who may be innocent. Noone can be 100% sure until all the facts are in. Noone can be 100% sure he is guilty either until all the facts are in. There is more at stake here than speaking our opinions about what we think is so. Just because we think it does not make it so.

Have some compassion for this child. He is a child, not an adult. That much is fact. I'm sorry I don't have a link to that fact. But it is a fact.He will need intense therapy either way now, it's ashame they didn't do a proper investigation to begin with instead of arresting the boy in such a rush and make it known all over the world saying things like " 8 year old killer" ect. that is such BS. Now there are some real sicko's out there which makes me scared for his safety if they don't clear his name. People on this session even if we don't agree with what they say are very mild compared to a site I came across and it was so horrible I felt like it was the Devil himself writing such negative about this small child, it really scared me.

[FDInLaw]

He will need intense therapy either way now, it's ashame they didn't do a proper investigation to begin with instead of arresting the boy in such a rush and make it known all over the world saying things like " 8 year old killer" ect. that is such BS. Now there are some real sicko's out there which makes me scared for his safety if they don't clear his name. People on this session even if we don't agree with what they say are very mild compared to a site I came across and it was so horrible I felt like it was the Devil himself writing such negative about this small child, it really scared me.
Huggers! I share your concern. This boy needs real help, not a cell. A new investigation needs to be done by the state IMO.

[bkwits]

I usually reserve my compassion for the victims. Don't you?

His age doesn't matter to me when I look at the circumstances and evidence surrounding this case.

If this child did this, I can't see how coddling and excusing it will benefit him in anyway. If this boy did what I believe he did....he doesn't need to be receiving tons of gifts from strangers, encouragement and support from people telling him that he's incapable of it and doesn't deserve to be held accountable for his actions.

IMO He would need intensive inpatient therapy for YEARS and I hope he gets it.

I have compassion for the victims and their families. The child is part of a victim's family, in fact his friend and companion seems to have been his father.

I do believe there was a rush to judgment in this case. Consequently we may never know the truth. I do believe that the child was denied any rights and tricked into saying that he shot the two men.

I do believe that St. Johns LE should be held accountable for their actions.

IMO

[Cherishlove]

I have compassion for the victims and their families. The child is part of a victim's family, in fact his friend and companion seems to have been his father.

I do believe there was a rush to judgment in this case. Consequently we may never know the truth. I do believe that the child was denied any rights and tricked into saying that he shot the two men.

I do believe that St. Johns LE should be held accountable for their actions.

IMOI feel the same way!

[Cherishlove]

They did not have the GSR report when LE arrested and charged him with the murders.
I know it's all a bunch of BS what they did to this child no proper investigation just arrested him in less than 24 hours, it's horrible.

[FDInLaw]

Question: was anyone else tested for GSR???? I'm guessing not. What a shame, this case might have taken a different direction. JMO

LE was too quick to pin this on the boy.

[GentleBreeze]

I know it's all a bunch of BS what they did to this child no proper investigation just arrested him in less than 24 hours, it's horrible.

So does this apply when many other DAs/LE arrest and charge a suspect, less than 24 hours after the crime? They certainly aren't through with their investigation either nor have any of the evidence back.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

They did find dozens of particles on his clothing ... But that is not the case here at all. Gunshot residue was present.

When quoting, it is always important to quote in context, not just select the parts that bolster your argument. Here is the statement in context:

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired. The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

John Cayton, a firearms examiner and former chief criminalist with the Kansas City, Mo., Police Department, said residue testing remains an important tool and described the number of particles found on the boy's clothes as "significant." But he also questioned whether the garments were contaminated elsewhere. Cayton added that it is not uncommon for small-town investigators to overlook evidentiary protocols because they often lack training and experience with homicides.

Boston police scrapped gunshot-residue tests in 2005 and the FBI followed suit a year later after acknowledging widespread contamination in its own lab, according to the Sun of Baltimore. Numerous other agencies have re-evaluated their validity.

Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants.

----

In context, Howard acknowledges that finding gunpowder residue on someone does not implicate them. Given that the boy is, according to the state, an avid hunter, one would expect to find gunpowder residue on him. Thirty particles is a rather small amount for ten separate gun shots. It is, however, consistent with gunpowder transfer.

[Jacobtk]

IMO it was found exactly where it would be expected to be found if he were the shooter...not walking through some cloud of smoke. It wasn't found on his butt from sitting either.

Actually, you do not know that because the state never released that information. They only stated that the residue was found on both his shirt and pants. They never stated whether the particles were grouped in one spot or spread all over. So all we know is that thirty particles of residue are on two articles of clothing. That would mean three particles per shot. That seems dubiously unrealistic, especially given that one shot expels thousands of particles. It is also seems odd that they apparently never tested the clothes of both men to determine whether the gunpowder residue patterns and compositions were the same.

[GentleBreeze]

Don't they usually check out other possible suspects before arresting anyone. They arrest when they think they have enough conclusive evidence, have eyewitnesses, more to go on to back them up rather than a gun on the dogs cage. Those casings could have come from any .22 gun. Anyone could have used a .22. I read somewhere that .22 are pretty common. I don't think that other investigations airest a suspect like they did this boy.

Probable cause is a very low burden to meet. They do not have to complete their investigation nor do they have to have conclusive evidence at the time of arrest and charge.

It was up to Judge Roca to decide if probable cause had been met and he did.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Spin it anyway you'd like.

It didn't help the boy, that much is sure:wink:

Yes, let see exactly where the GSR was located on his clothing since he said he walked through white smoke. If true then it should have been filtering all around him and would land on the front and back of his clothing.

It will be interesting to learn if all found was on the front of his clothes.

imo

[Jacobtk]

Probable cause is a very low burden to meet. They do not have to complete their investigation nor do they have to have conclusive evidence at the time of arrest and charge.

It was up to Judge Roca to decide if probable cause had been met and he did.

That is the point. The standard is so low that if I accused you of raping me as a child and it sounded believable, you would be arrested, charged and would have to post bail based on the statement of a person who has never physically met you. Finding probable cause not mean the person is guilty. All of the cases the Innocence Project handles involves judges finding probable cause to indict innocence men.

[Jacobtk]

Spin it anyway you'd like.

It didn't help the boy, that much is sure:wink:

It is not spin. It is logical, objective thinking. Ten shots would produce a lot of gunpowder. The experts in the article acknowledge that dozens of particles are consistent with a gun shot. They did not state that ten shots would only leave thirty particles. And because the residue can be transferred that easily and we are dealing with a small amount of it, it is entirely possible, indeed probable, that the residue is the result of transfer or from the boy previously shooting his gun and having his clothes washed. The point is that we cannot rule out transfer with this small amount of residue.

[Cherishlove]

Ummm they did. She has an alibi

An Alibi isn't good enough, a person could hire someone to do the job, and make sure they have an alibi. Let's hope they just didn't stop at a Alibi.

[GentleBreeze]

That is the point. The standard is so low that if I accused you of raping me as a child and it sounded believable, you would be arrested, charged and would have to post bail based on the statement of a person who has never physically met you. Finding probable cause not mean the person is guilty. All of the cases the Innocence Project handles involves judges finding probable cause to indict innocence men.

Actually if you accused me of raping you when you were a child the statute of limitations would have run out.

I don't think I have to be told that probable cause doesn't mean the person is guilty but thanks anyway. lol But it does show just like others that go through our court system, probable cause is the same burden as it is in this case.

How many cases has the Innocent Project produced to be completely innocent in over 20 years compared to the average of about 2.5 million inmates that are in our penal system?

imoo

[Jacobtk]

Actually if you accused me of raping you when you were a child the statute of limitations would have long run out.

It depends on the state. Many of the priests and nuns who are in prison now assaulted their victims before I was even born.

I don't think I have to be told that probable cause doesn't mean the person is guilty but thanks anyway. lol But it does show just like others that go through our court system, probable cause is the same burden as it is in this case.

Actually, it is not. Probable cause is based only on possibility, i.e. is it possible, not matter how unlikely, that a person committed the offense he is charged with. If the judge or grand jury finds that it is possible, the person will be indicted. Guilt or innocence play no role in the process and neither does reasonable doubt.

How many cases has the Innocent Project produced to be completely innocent in over 20 years compared to the average of about 2.5 million inmates that are in our penal system?

Do you believe every person convicted of a crime is guilty? Do you believe every person who pleads guilty or takes a deal is guilty? What about cases where there is no physical evidence to demonstrate guilt or innocence? As for your request, it is unrealistic to expect an organization that has existed for two decades with a small staff to have comparable results with a system that has existed for a hundred years. You can, however, views the cases (http://www.innocenceproject.org/news/National-View.php) state by state.

[GentleBreeze]

Actually, it is not. Probable cause is based only on possibility, i.e. is it possible, not matter how unlikely, that a person committed the offense he is charged with. If the judge or grand jury finds that it is possible, the person will be indicted. Guilt or innocence play no role in the process and neither does reasonable doubt.



Do you believe every person convicted of a crime is guilty? Do you believe every person who pleads guilty or takes a deal is guilty? What about cases where there is no physical evidence to demonstrate guilt or innocence? As for your request, it is unrealistic to expect an organization that has existed for two decades with a small staff to have comparable results with a system that has existed for a hundred years. You can, however, views the cases (http://www.innocenceproject.org/news/National-View.php) state by state.


Probable cause is based on a probability not a possibility.

No, I do not. I have been on the side of the defense in other cases that have been shown on IS and discussed here.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

What exactly is the reason you have for a person being possibly innocent?

May people have mercy on you if you are ever a suspect in a case and then you land in jail because of probable cause, and you are innocent. And don't feed me any oats about it wouldn't matter to you because that's how the justice system works. It would matter to you and your family. It would place an undo hardship on you, your family, and your sanity. You would not be human if you really believe it wouldn't bother you and did not try to do something to change it. I know your opinion is that this boy in this case is guilty, but you base that on "probable cause". I pray the truth comes out. The judge may have found probable cause, but he did not find the boy guilty. The facts have not come out yet. Only bits and pieces which promotes circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence doesn't cut it when you are messing with an 9 year olds live. But if the judge says there's probable cause, then by all means throw him in jail and wreak his life. I hope folks can sleep at night when this boy ends up worse off when he is found innocent (I don't see how they would be able to sleep). Found innocent then does harm to himself as a result of the harshness demonstrated to him.

Of course it would matter to me but it is a little hard to place myself in that type of situation when it has never risen in my entire life or with anyone that I know. My major offense was getting a traffic ticket back in the 80s.

Circumstantial evidence is legally used evidence and it doesn't exclude this boy's case if it goes to trial.

I don't think Judges become emotional charged. It isn't about sleeping at night, it is about upholding the laws of their state, their oaths and what they are sworn to carry out, no matter the age of a defendant.

If he is exonerated and that is the only way he can be proved innocent of the crime then he will be afforded the right to sue or his mother can as his custodian.

I don't base his guilt on probable cause. I base it on the tight time line.

imoo

[mrrogers]

You are joking right? They took the "Chipmunk". The murder weapon in their eyes. End of story.

It didn't matter that 2 men are dead, in two different spots, with an 11 minute timeframe, with a single bolt Chipmunk shotgun. Oh the 11 minutes included CR running to the neighbors.

the chipmonk isnt a shotgun its a single shot bolt action 22

[GentleBreeze]

I wasn't speaking about court judges. I was speaking about armchair judges.

Sure, they can sue, however, no amount of money can replace the H--- they have put this child or family through. None. You go talk to survivors of abuse and see how much money could replace their childhood. NONE. Money is not the answer to everything.

Well we sure aren't to that point yet.

There is nothing pointing to his innocence.

If the defense had such information they would be requesting their own hearing date asking to dismiss, using the exonerating evidence.

imoo

[Hawk]

Here's a photo and some comments to show how tiny (yet still very lethal) a .22 is compared to other ammo.


http://nslog.com/2004/07/15/ammunition_comparison

[Jacobtk]

Probable cause is based on a probability not a possibility.

'Possibility' is a synonym for 'probability'.

The definition or probably (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p089.htm):

A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. [...] Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

The issue is whether it is reasonable (i.e. possible based on the available information) to believe a person committed a crime. It does not mean the person committed the crime or that those accusing the person are telling the truth or that any of the evidence actually points to the person. The only issue is whether it is possible that the suspicion is warranted.

[dgfred]

:confused: I would think after the first devastating incapacitating shot the rest would be much easier.

The boy being the shooter isn't far fetched at all.

What is far fetched, claiming a real killer disguised his abilities to frame a boy.
imo


Not much needed to frame him for this LE agency. Just happen to have a 22 Rifle, kill two guys, and the 22 you see at the scene... just leave it there. LE did most of the 'framing' for the killer(s) it would seem.

[Jacobtk]

Well we sure aren't to that point yet.

There is nothing pointing to his innocence.

If the defense had such information they would be requesting their own hearing date asking to dismiss, using the exonerating evidence.

They do not have to prove the boy is innocent. The state must prove he is guilty. Getting cases dismissed based on weak or non-existent evidence is extremely difficult and rarely happens. Presuming the boy is guilty because his attorneys are not asking for the case to be dismissed is not particularly wise. Presuming that his attorneys have no evidence pointing to another suspect because they have not filed a motion to dismiss is also unwise. It is possible that the state has not turned over all the evidence yet and given that the crime scene was cleaned before being released to the boy's attorneys, the chances of them coming across anything substantively exonerating is very unlikely.

[dgfred]

Here's a photo and some comments to show how tiny (yet still very lethal) a .22 is compared to other ammo.


http://nslog.com/2004/07/15/ammunition_comparison


Thanks for the link.

[GentleBreeze]

that we know of. there is nothing pointing to his guilt by reasonable doubt either. There is sooo much reasonable doubt this board has so many posts which show reasonable doubt. What has shown his guilt beyond reasonable doubt, that is the legal standard. Reasonable doubt.

It doesn't matter what theories people put out here or how often. We aren't the court that is presiding over this case nor are any of us aware of all the evidence that has been uncovered. It is obvious as we put out our theories of coulda/woulda/shoulda it is because we do not have all the information that the interested parties do.

But there is nothing so far pointing away from this boy. As I have said, IMO, the time line will be one of the best pieces of evidence the state has against the boy. All we know now is that he did have GSR on him and his fingerprints were found on the box of bullets. Those two known things do not exonerate him or create reasonable doubt.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

They do not have to prove the boy is innocent. The state must prove he is guilty. Getting cases dismissed based on weak or non-existent evidence is extremely difficult and rarely happens. Presuming the boy is guilty because his attorneys are not asking for the case to be dismissed is not particularly wise. Presuming that his attorneys have no evidence pointing to another suspect because they have not filed a motion to dismiss is also unwise. It is possible that the state has not turned over all the evidence yet and given that the crime scene was cleaned before being released to the boy's attorneys, the chances of them coming across anything substantively exonerating is very unlikely.


I know of no defense team that is allowed in until LE releases the home. What date did he request this and did he expect Tiffany should wait to clean up the blood in her own home?

Oh yeah, it would be extremely wise if his attorneys have uncovered exonerating evidence. They would be hailed as heroes.

And I wasn't talking about in criminal court. If he is found to be innocent and yes, he will have to prove that, then he can civilly sue for damages.

imo

[Hawk]

.22 is the preferred ammunition for actual hitmen. The little stingers are rather quiet, and they usually lack the power to penetrate more than one bone. This simply means that after breaking through one side of the skull, the bullets will ricochet around inside of the skull, making mincemeat of the grey matter inside.
-----------------

Yeah, CR knew this. ROFLMAO!

Yes, and if the bullets were used in a pistol, like a Ruger .22 Suppressor for instance, no one closer than about 20' would have heard the discharge (depends on the environment of course, could be much less).

[GentleBreeze]

'Possibility' is a synonym for 'probability'.

The definition or probably (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p089.htm):

A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. [...] Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

The issue is whether it is reasonable (i.e. possible based on the available information) to believe a person committed a crime. It does not mean the person committed the crime or that those accusing the person are telling the truth or that any of the evidence actually points to the person. The only issue is whether it is possible that the suspicion is warranted.

Most things are possible. IMO probable means more likely than not.

imoo

[freddief]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

[Jacobtk]

I know of no defense team that is allowed in until LE releases the home. What date did he request this and did he expect Tiffany should wait to clean up the blood in her own home?

Apparently the house was released to her within a few days. However, my point is that it is very rare for the defense to go to a crime scene and find evidence left there by the police. So in order for the defense to have exonerating evidence they either a) got it from the state or b) got from someone who actually committed the crime or participated in hiding evidence. Since neither are likely, it is not realistic to expect the defense to suddenly happen upon such evidence. At best they may have circumstantial evidence pointing to someone else. Even if it is rather convincing, that would not mean the boy's case would be dismissed because such evidence is a matter for a jury/ bench trial judge to decide. The case would continue and the defense would have to present their position in court.

And I wasn't talking about in criminal court. If he is found to be innocent and yes, he will have to prove that, then he can civilly sue for damages.

In a civil court, he would not have to prove his innocent. He would have to show that the prosecutors and the police violated his rights. Based on the available information, that would be rather easy to do.

[Hawk]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

Meaningless to you perhaps. The rest of us enjoy the discussion.
Look how they're going at it today!
Free speech is alive and well in the good ole USA!
Ain't it great?

[Cherishlove]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.I heard he was a nice child, no prior problems at all and a rather quite child - no problems at school, no sure where you got the bully part? I hope and pray he is released to his Mother very soon.

[Hawk]

He was somewhat of a bully at school
This is in total contrast to what everyone said about him at the school. Absolutely no problems at all. The kind of kid you want your kids to be around. A sweet little kid who you just want to hug. None of those quotes indicate he was a bully

Kinda small for a bully, ain't he?

[FDInLaw]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.How do we know this?


Welcome to the board! *wave*

[Hawk]

freddief,

If you have information about the boy, please share it. It would be very much appreciated.

[GentleBreeze]

In a civil court, he would not have to prove his innocent. He would have to show that the prosecutors and the police violated his rights. Based on the available information, that would be rather easy to do.

I disagree. He would have to prove he was wrongly arrested and charged with these two murders.

imoo

[dgfred]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

Moot..... uh no. Even if they don't have a trial for him, this will follow him the rest of his life. If he didn't do it, there are some dangerous person(s) roaming about that area that just might try something again in a similar manner. If that is not the gun... still got work to do.
Even if he was a tuff at school, a bully does not a murderer make. Why
even bother to post here, if it is all that meaningless???

[FDInLaw]

Armchair judges are just that, they have no effect on the outcome of this case or any other. Really? Oh ye of little faith. :biggrin:

[muska]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

From what we've seen, I think they'd be perfectly happy to try a 9 year old and Mr. Carlyon would also likely be happy to try him again when he's about 15.

There have been no public comments suggesting the child was a bully. Actually, the neighbor, friends, and Sunday school teacher all said what a nice kid he was. Even Mr. Carlyon aknowledged there had been NO complaints about the child's behavior.

[Jacobtk]

Most things are possible. IMO probable means more likely than not.

So in the cases in which a person is acquitted or the charges are dropped because someone else confesses or the case is dismissed due to insufficient evidence, would that mean those demonstrably innocent people more likely than not committed the crimes they were accused of?

[muska]

Your first post asks if he admitted it to family.
Your second post "states" he did.

It's about credibility around here.:patriot:

You are too fast!!!

[GentleBreeze]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballistics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.

So he will just be released with no therapy and just go on like nothing ever happened?

I sure hope you are wrong but I am afraid that you might be right.

I haven't heard one person from St. John speak up in support of this boy since he has been in juvie. What do they think about him just going scott free?

imoo

[dgfred]

Okay, I must be invisible or on everyone's iggy. (whistling) Okey dokey then. Anyone here who would be kind enough to send me a pm. let me know how we are progressing in this case and how little C is. I still care.

Iggy? No way Jan.

I believe the next big day is the 29th! We just debating over old details mostly.

[GentleBreeze]

So in the cases in which a person is acquitted or the charges are dropped because someone else confesses or the case is dismissed due to insufficient evidence, would that mean those demonstrably innocent people more likely than not committed the crimes they were accused of?

Not necessarily. OJ was found Not Guilty. Mel Ignato was found Not Guilty, yet after the trial they found a tape showing MI torturing and killing his girlfriend.

imo

[dgfred]

Something about the 'alibi' for Tiffany doesn't sit right with me but I can't quite figure it out??? :confused: Timing just seems suspect.

[Jacobtk]

I disagree. He would have to prove he was wrongly arrested and charged with these two murders.

It would depend on the complaint filed in the suit. If he complains that he was wrongfully arrested and prosecuted, the standard is whether his complaint is believable based on the preponderance of the evidence (http://www.scselfservice.org/civ/general/dayincourt.htm#evidence). He would not have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That is why OJ was acquitted in criminal court, but held liable in civil court. The standards are different. In the boy's case, it would be fairly easy to demonstrate that his rights were violated and that he is believably innocent and therefore wrongfully accused.

[Hawk]

Okay, I must be invisible or on everyone's iggy. (whistling) Okey dokey then. Anyone here who would be kind enough to send me a pm. let me know how we are progressing in this case and how little C is. I still care.

The hearing on Thursday will include addressing the state's motion to dismiss count #1.
The 6 Feb hearing is about the defendant's competency to stand trial.

It's mostly just good healthy arguing right now!

[GentleBreeze]

Something about the 'alibi' for Tiffany doesn't sit right with me but I can't quite figure it out??? :confused: Timing just seems suspect.

What is suspicious about a wife/mother or co worker going to get donuts for the next day, buying groceries and buying her husband coveralls.:confused:

[Cherishlove]

So he will just be released with no therapy and just go on like nothing ever happened?

I sure hope you are wrong but I am afraid that you might be right.

I haven't heard one person from St. John speak up in support of this boy since he has been in juvie. What do they think about him just going scott free?

imoo
I hope his Mother takes him far away from St. Johns, AZ and I would hope and assume she would get him Intense Therapy and all the Love and Support he will need.

[GentleBreeze]

I have no reason to believe OJ's jury was wrong.


:lol::lol:

[Hawk]

I have no reason to believe OJ's jury was wrong.

You're joking, right???

[Jacobtk]

Really? I would think if the boys gun wasn't the murder weapon and the casings have someone else's fingerprints all over them, it would be rather obvious.

How would the boy's attorneys get that information? The state has all the evidence and it has not turned it over. The defense has only what is stated in the reports handed to them (assuming they got them all). Carlyon could and likely would withhold anything inconclusive or pointing away from the boy (he can do this legally by redacting certain information from the reports he gives to the defense).

[dgfred]

What is suspicious about a wife/mother or co worker going to get donuts for the next day, buying groceries and buying her husband coveralls.:confused:

Well in my area NOBODY buys donuts for the NEXT day... the good thing about donuts usually is that they are fresh donuts.
What groceries? I heard something about spagetti. What better alibi
than buying something for your soon-to-be-dead husband... that you love so dearly? See what I'm getting at?

[Jacobtk]

Case being dropped due to insufficient evidence does not mean a person is innocent. Just as a person being found "not guilty" does not mean the person is innocent.

Likewise, a case going forward with only circumstantial evidence does not mean a person is guilty. Just as a person being found "guilty" does not mean the person is guilty. That is the inherent flaw in our system. It is not based on fact, but assumption. The attempt to defend against the innocent being imprisoned is reasonable doubt. However, as we have seen on this board, people will set it aside quite quickly. And while you may be correct that this is not a jury box, we are all potential jurors and there is no reason to assume any of us would behave any differently when called to court.

[dgfred]

RG was the sunglass delivery boy that worked at the restaurant. No way anyone knew he was coming. :thumbsup:

RG was a surprise for OJ, he probably thought Nicole would be alone.
Recent rumor has it that OJ has said 'it wouldn't have happened but Nicole came at me with a knife'. I'd guess he had to kill RG once he saw
or heard what happened to Nicole.

You are my pal J D... but I can't agree with you on the OJ stuff. Maybe
we should discuss this in that thread, but then again I am no longer really interested in that case.

[Hawk]

Can't figure out why RG was jumped as Nicole was opening the gate to get the sunglasses from him that her mother forgot when she had dinner with her.

Now we know that there's 13 people in America that believe OJ's innocent of chopping two heads off!

[GentleBreeze]

Well in my area NOBODY buys donuts for the NEXT day... the good thing about donuts usually is that they are fresh donuts.
What groceries? I heard something about spagetti. What better alibi
than buying something for your soon-to-be-dead husband... that you love so dearly? See what I'm getting at?


From what another poster said the place that she works opens at 8 am and she has to be there by 7:45am. I don't see anything odd about getting the donuts. I think that may be the only store in that town and may not even open up until 8 am or later after she is already at work.

Well if something happens to my hubby, I guess I will look suspicious too because I buy all of his clothes, no matter if they are his dress clothes for work or for home chores or hunting or golf clothing. :smile:

imoo

[dgfred]

From what another poster said the place that she works opens at 8 am and she has to be there by 7:45am. I don't see anything odd about getting the donuts. I think that may be the only store in that town and may not even open up until 8 am or later after she is already at work.

Well if something happens to my hubby, I guess I will look suspicious too because I buy all of his clothes, no matter if they are his dress clothes for work or for home chores or hunting or golf clothing. :smile:

imoo

I would think if it was that important for her, she could leave work for a few minutes to get some 'fresh' donuts. Have you ever bought donuts for the NEXT day? I haven't, and nobody I know has either. If you are out buying him clothes and he is shot by an unknown intruder, you might look pretty suspicious too, so don't do that. :biggrin:

[Jacobtk]

It would be part of discovery and legally it would have to be handed over.

I think the defense HAS the reports.

Brewer and Woods might have all the reports and they might not. As per the evidence being part of the discovery, the legal mandate has not stopped Carlyon from stalling in handing over reports he intends to use, so he could be withholding evidence. Legality seems to be less of an issue with this case. It is a legal mandate to read someone his rights, but that was not done. It is a legal mandate to notify a person's attorney before attempting to have that person speak with a CPS worker, but that was not done either.

[GentleBreeze]

I would think if it was that important for her, she could leave work for a few minutes to get some 'fresh' donuts. Have you ever bought donuts for the NEXT day? I haven't, and nobody I know has either. If you are out buying him clothes and he is shot by an unknown intruder, you might look pretty suspicious too, so don't do that. :biggrin:

What if she is the only one there in the morning? The doctors may come in later.

LOL I'll keep that in mind.... however I have a long pattern of doing so.....so I will probably be okay.:wink:

imoo

[mrrogers]

If this guy isn't interested in the attention he's getting from this once in a lifetime case, why isn't he at his new job, working for the people who elected him and who are now paying his salary?
I don't understand how he's legally allowed to do this.
Just asking.

http://brad4countyattorney.com/

hes not being paid by apache co he being paid at his county atty rate from navao county where hes county atty

[mrrogers]

Posters have been saying huge amounts come out.

We have been debating all morning about 100s of thousands of gunshot particles would be found. So if that is true, then surely right around the victim, which usually has the most gunshot residue found on them since they were the one fired at, it seems very logical if he was in that location for any given length of time the backside of his clothing would be saturated with it.

the gsr is blown out of the gun when shot thered be less gsr on the victim

[muska]

I was succesful because I gave birth to two wonderful daughters. I was able to help people as the minister's wife. My joy was not my ex's to take. That's how I was sucessful. It was not wasted!

Not worth worrying about what offensive posters have to say. Just push ignore.....that battle isn't worth fighting.

[mrrogers]

The point is, the GSR didn't rule the boy out.

It's another piece of circumstantial evidence that points to the boy as the shooter.

imo

cr has been proven innocent if it ever goes to trial you ll hear how
according to a source speaking on the basis of anynomity

[mrrogers]

oh yeah...those anonymous sources are always so credible:rolleyes:

well this one is so im not really worried all i can say is wait and see
plus the phoenix atty has said that there is evidence to prove the boys
innocense so whatever . u can roll your eyes till the cows come home
doesnt bother me a bit !
the only reason i got the info is i promised not tell anyone who said it
so like i said wait and see. definetly keep those eyes rolling till then maybe youll go cross eyes who knows.
all the stuff youve been talking about doesnt amount to a hill of beans
they have no solid evidence to convict the boy on
rodriques lied in the the trail to decide whether there was enough
evidence to have probable kause. hes lied to bb so what can you
say
why do think they offered a plea deal so fast. they dont just handem
out to everyone they prosecute. they know they cant prove him guilty
BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT if it goes to trial. the judge caught debbie neckle in a lie on the witness stand at the probable cause hearing
the question is : who if anyone told the truth at the probable cause hearing.
they stopped the investigation after avila and neckles got a cooerced confession that was thrown out now tell me what evidence do they have to show him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt :w00t:

[TaraCrazyHair]

I would think if it was that important for her, she could leave work for a few minutes to get some 'fresh' donuts. Have you ever bought donuts for the NEXT day? I haven't, and nobody I know has either. If you are out buying him clothes and he is shot by an unknown intruder, you might look pretty suspicious too, so don't do that. :biggrin:

If I want fresh donuts .. I head to Tim Horton's

But if I just want donuts for the week .. I head to the Krispy Kremes at Kroger

(:

So I think the donut thing is kind of moot

As for the NAPA trip .. I am curious if that was preplanned or spur of the moment

[TaraCrazyHair]

Hey, friend! The reason is two-fold: One, it's too heartwrenching on this board. I go to bed in tears every night thinking about this little boy. and B, I have been on the Caylee board where every day is a daytime soap episode. There are more twists and turns in that case than there are on Space Mountain. So I am still interested with what's going on. I read somewhere that there is some negative information being tossed around the internet about the boys natural mother and also about the step-mother whooping it up only a week or so after she buries her husband. What's up with that! And the boy is still sitting in jail alone. I hope they are treating him with TLC and remembering that he is just a heartbeat away from being just a baby. Danielle Van Dam was around his age when her tragedy struck and nobody said she was "old enough to deal with it." She was "just a baby". Why are they treating this boy any differently. I don't get it.


Because eight year olds are babies when they are the victim and old enough to know better when they are the perps?

(shrug)

To me, eight is eight no matter what the status

Mere children ..

[TaraCrazyHair]

cr has been proven innocent if it ever goes to trial you ll hear how
according to a source speaking on the basis of anynomity

If he has been proven innocent .. there should be no need for a trial?

[TaraCrazyHair]

I feel an arrest will be made. They know who.


One arrest or more than one?

[TaraCrazyHair]

LOL, I didn't know if Tara knew Tiffany went to the same store twice, but was only on video once.

How come only on video once?

Did she have a receipt for the spaghetti?


As for the same store twice .. I actually just did that today so i cant say it is unusual?

Bought Risotto and shrimp, got home and seen I forgot to buy broth so back in the snow I trudge 6 miles to the store for the broth

(Hopefully I am on video in case there is a need! But I do have my receipt)

(:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Don't know yet.

Ballistics and fingerprints don't lie.

Prints on the gun(s)?

Or the shell casings?

Did the evidence come back today?

Sure hope so!!

[TaraCrazyHair]

Really. I heard about her being on video for donuts but not for the spaghetti. Nickel said Tiffany had the reciept for the spaghetti. I wonder if that was someone elses reciept she had since she wasn't on the video?


Hmmmmmm...

and what was the time on the receipt?

[TaraCrazyHair]

Can't even tell you how many times I've done that. lol:tongueside: I often run to the store to pick up ONE item....buy 20 and discover when I get home I forgot to get what I went for.:blushing:


You must have my sometimers disease

heard it is contagious for people over 25 lol

[freddief]

Justice Dawg has all the evidence to prove the Earth is flat.....This boy is GUILTY. Lets blame the police chief, Judge Roca...and ehile we're at it let's blame the dead people, after all they were the last people at the crime scene.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Justice Dawg has all the evidence to prove the Earth is flat.....This boy is GUILTY. Lets blame the police chief, Judge Roca...and ehile we're at it let's blame the dead people, after all they were the last people at the crime scene.

What makes him guilty?

The confession that was tossed out because LE violated all laws granted to citizens?

So far, that was all they had

:confused:

[TaraCrazyHair]

The timestamp was IIRC 20-25 minutes later...


Was anyone she knew seen on the video tape by chance?

[freddief]

The prosecution hasn't presented their case yet...bu the judge believed there was enough of a case to hold him over...and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence...besides you haven't proved anything either.

[muska]

The prosecution hasn't presented their case yet...bu the judge believed there was enough of a case to hold him over...and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence...besides you haven't proved anything either.

If nothing has been proven either way, why not give a little kid the benefit of the doubt? Why not look for reasons to find him innocent? Why are you so sure he's guilty?

[TaraCrazyHair]

The prosecution hasn't presented their case yet...bu the judge believed there was enough of a case to hold him over...and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence...besides you haven't proved anything either.


At the time, his confession would have been enough

[GentleBreeze]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%209TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

New filing anyone have any idea what the deal is with the myspace.com evidence...weird

WOW! Almost 400 pages from the DPS Investigation.

imoo

[muska]

The prosecution hasn't presented their case yet...bu the judge believed there was enough of a case to hold him over...and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence...besides you haven't proved anything either.

Would you want to be convicted on what is thus far pretty weak circumstantial evidence? This kid is in third grade. Would you really want a third grader convicted if there was any doubt?

[TaraCrazyHair]

Was it that time that Kirk and some other paramedic were out in the parking lot talking to her? or did they talk to her earlier. Paramedics were called while she was talking to them, but for some strange reason she went to NAPA. I still can't believe she didn't hear her address. Those things (dispatch radios) are loud.

Wait

I am not sure i understand

She was talking to paramedics but went into NAPA?

[freddief]

Finally, the prosecution is presenting some evidence.

[muska]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%209TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf

New filing anyone have any idea what the deal is with the myspace.com evidence...weird

Any idea when it will be posted to read?

[Hawk]

937 pages? Perhaps LE's investigation has been greatly underestimated!

[GentleBreeze]

If it was so cut and dry pointing to CR, it would have been 5 pages, tops.

moo

No it wouldn't, it would be very detailed. We see how thick the files are when these kind of witnesses testifies. Their notebooks are like thick books.

And isn't it strange that they turned over a CD from myspace and in the same disclosure they turned over an interview done with Eyrn.

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Finally, the prosecution is presenting some evidence.

Yep, I think it is heating up now.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

She sure did. :thumbdown:

Hold on!!!

She learned her husband was shot but had to go to the store and nobody found that suspicious??

Are you kidding me?!

She can be in shock and act weird but an eight year old can't?

[GentleBreeze]

Hold on!!!

She learned her husband was shot but had to go to the store and nobody found that suspicious??

Are you kidding me?!

She can be in shock and act weird but an eight year old can't?

There is no evidence anywhere, Tara, that she knew where the paramedics were going when they left.

She found out about it when the boy called her on a cell phone from the scene.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

who is carol alder and Jaylyn Romero?

I don't know. Maybe new witnesses or two more they interviewed?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

why would the DA wait until the end of the day 2 days before the hearing to dismiss count #1 to disclose so much? kinda an unfair advantage, doesn't really give the defense much time to prepare, eh?

Prepare for what? What does this have to do with dismissing count one?

imoo

[Hawk]

Anyone know who Jaylyn Romero is?

He is survived by his wife, Tiffany Romero of St. Johns; son Christian Romero of St. Johns; daughter Faith Chavez Romero of Tucson; father LeRoy Romero of St. Johns; mother Liz Castillo of St. Johns; sisters, Franchesca Romero and (Ryon Scarbrough) of St. Johns; Michelle and (Alex) Schaper of Panama; niece and nephew Nathalia and Jacob Scarbrough of St. Johns; and many other family members.


No mention of Jaylyn. Maybe a cousin sister?

[GentleBreeze]

Like should wouldn't recognize her own address or at least the neighborhood. I know when I hear a siren in my neighborhood I always wonder if it one of my driving kids...heck even at the intersections near my house I look to make sure it is not one of them.

Why would she suspect anything was wrong with Vinnie. She had just talked to him and he was fine then, heading home just like any other day and she sure wouldn't think there had been a murder imo. They haven't had a murder there in years.

imoo

[TaraCrazyHair]

There is no evidence anywhere, Tara, that she knew where the paramedics were going when they left.

She found out about it when the boy called her on a cell phone from the scene.

imoo

Are there transcripts and times?

[Hawk]

I'm pretty sure Carol Alder was the CPS worker that interviewed the boy in detention but I could be wrong.

I think she's Mr. Romans mother. Officer Jones spelled her name Alden in his report.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Like should wouldn't recognize her own address or at least the neighborhood. I know when I hear a siren in my neighborhood I always wonder if it one of my driving kids...heck even at the intersections near my house I look to make sure it is not one of them.

Small town right?

No way somebody say ... hey isnt that your address?


Or close to it?

We hear that here all the time

I live in a small town where everyone knows when you go to bed and wake up

Nosey yes, but in time of crime ... i am glad they are there

[Hawk]

Maybe not. It was how many pages that were the transcript of the boys "confession".

Could those 937 pages also point to someone else. Could these be what mrrogers eluded to earlier?

It could do a lot if things. But there is 937 pages worth. Someone has been busier than they've been credited with.
That's a lot of information, even though much of it is redundant.

[muska]

Refile as an accomplice maybe?

What does that mean? Who would be the accomplice?

[muska]

refile saying CR was an accomplice.

If they should ever actually charge an adult, I would hope and pray that they would not continue after the child as well.

[bkwits]

Now we know that there's 13 people in America that believe OJ's innocent of chopping two heads off!

I understand that some of the jury has since changed their minds, as well as everyone that I know personally who once believed he was NG.

[muska]

It could do a lot if things. But there is 937 pages worth. Someone has been busier than they've been credited with.
That's a lot of information, even though much of it is redundant.

Any idea when we might see any of it?

[Hawk]

Where are you getting 937 pages today?

I ain't smart as you, but I can read.

[Hawk]

I thought you meant total today.

976-the 391 that is already in.

Scott Peterson's disclosure was 40 thousand pages.

976 is nothing.

From the way some folks have been talking bad about Apache County LE I wouldn't have expected more than 20 pages total.

[muska]

I thought you meant total today.

976-the 391 that is already in.

Scott Peterson's disclosure was 40 thousand pages.

976 is nothing.

Okay, are you all ignoring me now? :smile:
Can you just let me know if this is available to read now? Where is it? Thanks a lot!

[Hawk]

St John's LE. Apache County x DA.

LOL

They're all in law enforcement and on the same team.
The highest law enforcement position possible is Attorney General of the United States.

[Hawk]

hmmm I didn't know that. :w00t:

What good does it do him?

The Attorney General is subject to impeachment by the House of Representatives and trial in the Senate for "treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors.

What is that suppose to mean? A president can be impeached.
Anyone can be fired. What's that got to do with the collective evidence in the St. Johns murder case?
Are you arguing with yourself? Or just run out of topics? OJ? Peterson?

[GentleBreeze]

It could do a lot if things. But there is 937 pages worth. Someone has been busier than they've been credited with.
That's a lot of information, even though much of it is redundant.

In the Michael Peterson case they had about 6,000 pages total.

So if we went back and added up all the supplemental discovery pages in this one, I wonder how many it would total?

And they may have some more to come.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

From the way some folks have been talking bad about Apache County LE I wouldn't have expected more than 20 pages total.

I think some have underestimated this investigation.

imoo

[Hawk]

I think some have underestimated this investigation.

imoo

Looks like. This is a comparitivly simple case. It shouldn't take much evidence, either way, as far as the defendant is concerned.

[GentleBreeze]

Looks like. This is a comparitivly simple case. It shouldn't take much evidence, either way, as far as the defendant is concerned.

Yes, it is.

imoo

[Jacobtk]

No it wouldn't, it would be very detailed. We see how thick the files are when these kind of witnesses testifies. Their notebooks are like thick books.

The bulk of such reports are explanations justifying the findings. The same thing will be delivered by the boy's attorneys when they put on their ballistics expert. Hundreds and hundreds of paging citing other cases. That is what happens in court cases. That is one of the many reasons I decided not to go into law. It involves entirely too much reading.

And isn't it strange that they turned over a CD from myspace and in the same disclosure they turned over an interview done with Eyrn.

Unless the state plans to claim the boy blogged about his alleged plan, I am not certain what evidence they have from myspace. Perhaps they intend to claim his mother spoke about the case.

[Hawk]

The bulk of such reports are explanations justifying the findings. The same thing will be delivered by the boy's attorneys when they put on their ballistics expert. Hundreds and hundreds of paging citing other cases. That is what happens in court cases. That is one of the many reasons I decided not to go into law. It involves entirely too much reading.



Unless the state plans to claim the boy blogged about his alleged plan, I am not certain what evidence they have from myspace. Perhaps they intend to claim his mother spoke about the case.

How would Eryn talking about the case effect the proceedings? I don't know, I'm just asking.

[freddief]

The police interviewed a bunch of Romeros and neighbors so there may not be as much hard evidence as we expect, just a lot of people guessing why he did it....and then some forensics

[Jacobtk]

Looks like. This is a comparitivly simple case. It shouldn't take much evidence, either way, as far as the defendant is concerned.

It would depend on what is in the report. As I stated before, the reports have to explain and justify the conclusions reached. That takes up a lot of space. The report most likely is just the compiled interviews and police reports and statements from the witnesses. The actual lab report is substantially smaller.

How would Eryn talking about the case effect the proceedings? I don't know, I'm just asking.

If she violated the gag order the judge could hold her in contempt. That would effect her custody of the boy if he were released. I suppose the state could also argue that she was trying to influence witnessed via myspace. Again, I would like to know what anything on myspace has to do with this case in relationship to the boy.

[Hawk]

It would depend on what is in the report. As I stated before, the reports have to explain and justify the conclusions reached. That takes up a lot of space. The report most likely is just the compiled interviews and police reports and statements from the witnesses. The actual lab report is substantially smaller.



If she violated the gag order the judge could hold her in contempt. That would effect her custody of the boy if he were released. I suppose the state could also argue that she was trying to influence witnessed via myspace. Again, I would like to know what anything on myspace has to do with this case in relationship to the boy.

Could it not be said that the state tried to influence witnesses by releasing the 'interrogation tape' and all the documents?
Seems like this 'gag' order thing is a one way street.

That would sure be 'dirty pool' on Ms. Bloomfield.

[Hawk]

The police interviewed a bunch of Romeros and neighbors so there may not be as much hard evidence as we expect, just a lot of people guessing why he did it....and then some forensics

I think there's 26 pages from the Arizona DPS lab. That's what we want to see first (not that it's up to us), I think. It should tell much of the story on it's own.

[Jacobtk]

Could it not be said that the state tried to influence witnesses by releasing the 'interrogation tape' and all the documents?
Seems like this 'gag' order thing is a one way street.

Certainly. That is why the judge denied a jury trial. The jury pool at this point is so tainted that no one could be objective.

[Hawk]

Certainly. That is why the judge denied a jury trial. The jury pool at this point is so tainted that no one could be objective.

Do you think the new evidence will come up Thursday, or will they wait until after the Competency Hearing on the 6th, should the judge, God forbid, say the boy can stand trial?

[muska]

Could it not be said that the state tried to influence witnesses by releasing the 'interrogation tape' and all the documents?
Seems like this 'gag' order thing is a one way street.

That would sure be 'dirty pool' on Ms. Bloomfield.

The myspace page could probably be anything - just someone who was talking about what happened and maybe said something that prosecution considers helpful for their side.

[Jacobtk]

Do you think the new evidence will come up Thursday, or will they wait until after the Competency Hearing on the 6th, should the judge, God forbid, say the boy can stand trial?

To be honest, I am not sure. None of the evidence has been discussed previously, so it might not get mentioned. I also doubt that the charges will be dismissed at this point given that the judge has set the competency hearing. As much as I would like to believe this case would never go to trial, given what has occurred I expect the judge to either sit on ruling on the motion to dismiss or he will grant the state's request. I think he will find the boy incompetent, but restorable. What will occur after that I cannot say as I do not know enough about what either side has to be able to make an educated guess.

[Hawk]

To be honest, I am not sure. None of the evidence has been discussed previously, so it might not get mentioned. I also doubt that the charges will be dismissed at this point given that the judge has set the competency hearing. As much as I would like to believe this case would never go to trial, given what has occurred I expect the judge to either sit on ruling on the motion to dismiss or he will grant the state's request. I think he will find the boy incompetent, but restorable. What will occur after that I cannot say as I do not know enough about what either side has to be able to make an educated guess.

It's as educated as any one's at this point.
There sure a lot of options for the judge. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

[muska]

To be honest, I am not sure. None of the evidence has been discussed previously, so it might not get mentioned. I also doubt that the charges will be dismissed at this point given that the judge has set the competency hearing. As much as I would like to believe this case would never go to trial, given what has occurred I expect the judge to either sit on ruling on the motion to dismiss or he will grant the state's request. I think he will find the boy incompetent, but restorable. What will occur after that I cannot say as I do not know enough about what either side has to be able to make an educated guess.

Any guess about the likelihood that he will grant the motion to dismiss?

[Jacobtk]

Any guess about the likelihood that he will grant the motion to dismiss?

It seems more likely than not that he will refuse the motion or grant it as the state requests. While it is unethical and tantamount to double jeopardy, it would follow Roca's pattern in this case. I cannot see him dismissing both charges with prejudice nor do I see him dismissing the one charge with prejudice because that would send the state back to the Court of Appeals and halt the proceedings once again. I do see him requiring the Carlyon to explain his reasons for the motion.

[mrrogers]

Are there transcripts and times?

shed been talking to them both downtown earlier dont know how much earlier tho

[Hawk]

The myspace page could probably be anything - just someone who was talking about what happened and maybe said something that prosecution considers helpful for their side.

I don't understand the wording;

'Copy of CD containing return from myspace.com'

Does this mean subpoenaed material? Or just a copy of something LE recorded from myspace?

[Hawk]

It is Candy's my space. She told police Tim asked her to marry him. She had photos of them together up. They had to get it.

State has to give evidence/discovery, even if it is EXONERATING. Just because they got it, doesn't mean it is against the defense.

So it's minor. Okay. Good, I thought it might be worse.

So who is Jaylyn Romero. With 14 pages of transcript she's either talkative or has a lot of info.
I couldn't find a thing about her. She's the only person in AZ that I've checked on that doesn't have a traffic ticket!

[mrrogers]

Firstly with the election there is a new County Attorney...so I see no vendetta by the prosecution.

Secondly all the ballastics and speculation, and crime scene info is all interesting, but it doesn't really matter whether they can prove or disprove the case because ultimately they are NOT going to try a nine year old.

Thirdly the boy admitted both publicly and privately that he did it. He was at the scene of the crime. He had motive in that he was mad at his dad. He was somewhat of a bully at school. He has a 22 that his father gave him, and if that's what killed the men than these arguments are all moot.

All these posts are interesting but meaningless, as the boy will be released and he and his mom will move to Mississippi.you hope hes realeased is a better statement.................
if you carefully read what the prosecution writes you can get a feel for their character and intent at least i can
THRES AN 13 YO LOCKED UP TILL HES AT LEAST 18 AS THE ORDER SEZ from cochise county
FREDDIE,YOU dont understand these people. carylon is a total slimeball who would screw anyone over he can. i just pray the murder count is dismissed with predudice or not ruled on at all
how many times do we have to say COERCED CONFESSION THROWN OUT

[Hawk]

you hope hes realeased is a better statement.................
if you carefully read what the prosecution writes you can get a feel for their character and intent at least i can
THRES AN 13 YO LOCKED UP TILL HES AT LEAST 18 AS THE ORDER SEZ from cochise county
FREDDIE,YOU dont understand these people. carylon is a total slimeball who would screw anyone over he can. i just pray the murder count is dismissed with predudice or not ruled on at all
how many times do we have to say COERCED CONFESSION THROWN OUT

I can't find anywhere if Mr. Carlyon has ever prosecuted a murder case. Do you know if he has?
And I don't think Judge Roca has ever presided over one. Shouldn't one of them have some experience in homicides?

I wouldn't want surgery from an intern if the overseeing surgeon had never done the operation before.
Just wondering.

[mrrogers]

Honestly if they would of even talked to any other suspects I would maybe wonder if he did it. Yet they never questioned anyone thouroughly...why is that? IMO as I have said before I think the DA seen this as an opportunity to get his 15 min of fame, he just didn't realize the backlash after releasing the video of the "confession" so now he has to save face and attempt to actually prove this kids did this instead of people just believing he did based on the confession. So far he is failing and making himself look worse by wanting a judgement on his motion to dismiss before the competency is finished...to me that shows he doesn't want justice he wants another notch in his belt. If this kid is incompetent age wise then it has to be dismissed with prejudice, he is trying to get around the law.

this kid wont get a fair trial anywhere due to candeleria lettn hat tape out

[Hawk]

I looked long ago and couldn't find any. I figured it was because they weren't high profile, but you would think we could find one other!

I know. I can find out most anything on the web pertaining to my home county. Apache County is kinda' secretive, or probably just doesn't have the resources to maintain many server files.

[mrrogers]

I don't know. I haven't looked for it.

imoo

o i found out about that
tiffany was faxing a friend to say she wished she could till vinny she was sorry about the fight they had the nite before
sounds fishy to me and alot of other people

[mrrogers]

IMO it was found exactly where it would be expected to be found if he were the shooter...not walking through some cloud of smoke. It wasn't found on his butt from sitting either.

60 particles of gsr is far too little to have from 10 shot. avila was right in a sense it can come from what she said. a gun. like someone else said being a hunting family the house was probably full of it. it will be on freshly washed clothes also so theres a bunch of places to get it from
you remind me of that hamilton burger on perry mason always has answer for everything but in the end thats not what happened

[mrrogers]

The point is, the GSR didn't rule the boy out.

It's another piece of circumstantial evidence that points to the boy as the shooter.

imo

if 5 people are in room one is shooting they all will have some gsr on them
does that make all five the shooter. according to your logic it does

[muska]

I don't understand the wording;

'Copy of CD containing return from myspace.com'

Does this mean subpoenaed material? Or just a copy of something LE recorded from myspace?

I don't know what this could be........maybe a transcript from someone's page? What goes on a CD? I don't know anything about myspace but maybe there's a term 'return' associated with it? Just guessing.

I googled 'return myspace' and all I got was a bunch of info about a band. Oh well!

[GentleBreeze]

if 5 people are in room one is shooting they all will have some gsr on them
does that make all five the shooter. according to your logic it does

There is nothing stating that 5 people were alive and standing in this home when the murders occurred.



imo

[mrrogers]

:confused: I would think after the first devastating incapacitating shot the rest would be much easier.

The boy being the shooter isn't far fetched at all.

What is far fetched, claiming a real killer disguised his abilities to frame a boy.
imo
whatever your reply totally ignores only 60 particles of gsr
that could have been picked up anywhere.ive explained that and coerced confession so many times im not going into it any more
a boy 8 years old is gonna have a helluva time making the headshots they talked about. if they were from him they would have been at upward angle theres been not mention of that
what i find far fetched is your total attitude. you should go to work for prosecution i think theyd welcome someone like you.
like i said im privy to alot of informaton that none of you know about and im not goihng to tell so all i can tell you is you are wrong thinking hes the shooter.. so go ramble on i dont care :w00t::w00t:

[muska]

myspace.com received a supeopa, (like Verizon did for cell records). They must comply. The supeopa was for a copy of a person/s website that is hosted on their servers. MySpace.com then burns a copy to a blank CD of that person/s website and returns it to LE.

Does myspace let the person know they've done this?

[muska]

nope, never.

So you would only find out if the police came looking for you?

[freddief]

IIRC- There were only 32 GSR particles found on his cloths.


the house has stairs...is that what you mean by the upward angle???

[Perplexed1]

There is nothing stating that 5 people were alive and standing in this home when the murders occurred.



imo

I'm sorry, but are you for real?:glare:

[Pag Boi]

Small town right?

No way somebody say ... hey isnt that your address?


Or close to it?

We hear that here all the time

I live in a small town where everyone knows when you go to bed and wake up

Nosey yes, but in time of crime ... i am glad they are there

Hey Tara - you're asking all kinds of great questions. ;)

Did you notice that the several of the victims coworkers were in/at Wilburs and heard the dispatches to VR's address. Seems to me that Tif was the only one that needed a telephone call to be alerted. The wife's EMS alibi answered the call and Tif was in Napa 2 "verified" minutes before she got the call to come home. :shrug:

[freddief]

mr rogers comment....

Originally Posted by mrrogers
whatever your reply totally ignores only 60 particles of gsr
that could have been picked up anywhere.ive explained that and coerced confession so many times im not going into it any more
a boy 8 years old is gonna have a helluva time making the headshots they talked about. if they were from him they would have been at upward angle theres been not mention of that
what i find far fetched is your total attitude. you should go to work for prosecution i think theyd welcome someone like you.
like i said im privy to alot of informaton that none of you know about and im not goihng to tell so all i can tell you is you are wrong thinking hes the shooter.. so go ramble on i dont care

[Hawk]

Want to giggle?

Our Countys most famous: Both of the Kehoe brothers are members of Aryan Nations.

Watch the shootout!!!!

http://www.footypd.com/view_video.php?viewkey=2d6d4f975380ee45ef8d&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr


They were convicted. Later...Conviction overturned because prosecutors stored evidence in the jury room and ladies bathroom.

Yep, this is Mayberry too. :w00t:

Wow! There's a classic case of 'one's scared and the other one's glad of it'!

That must be one of the most talkative and patient cops in the country.

[Perplexed1]

That was funny.

Could have been 15 for all we know, right? :lol:

My goodness!

[muska]

the house has stairs...is that what you mean by the upward angle???

I don't think there's any real agreement on any of the shots or angles inside the house.

[Pag Boi]

Are there transcripts and times?

Tif talked to VR at 4:27.
Tif produces 2nd receipt with time stamp 4:43

The call from the child was @ 5:15. So it wasn't that "she had just talked to her hubby and he was headed home" JMOO tho

ETA: if an 8yo can kill in mere minutes so could any adult.

[Hawk]

Unreal huh?? It should be on TV!!!
The cop had no clue these guys were wanted in 2 other states for murder.

No I.D., no tag, two young guys, seems the cop was just too nice. Around here (and most other places I imagine) they'd taser your a.. if you didn't submit to a search and get in the cruiser. The passenger would have been at the rear of the suspects vehicle sitting on the ground.
Oh, well. At least no one was hurt (miraculously).

[Perplexed1]

Tif talked to VR at 4:27.
Tif produces 2nd receipt with time stamp 4:43

The call from the child was @ 5:15. So it wasn't that "she had just talked to her hubby and he was headed home" JMOO tho

ETA: if an 8yo can kill in mere minutes so could any adult.

8 yr olds are getting smarter all the time, ya know. :rolleyes:

[GentleBreeze]

That was funny.

Could have been 15 for all we know, right? :lol:

Really? Its been almost three months, where are they? Surely some of the neighbors would have seen 15 people filing out of that house. Oh wait a minute. They didn't see anyone.

If you can just come up with one though that will be fine.:smile:

Well another one, than the one that has been accused of being there when they did the crimes. The court already has him included.

[Perplexed1]

Surely it's not allowed to 'drink and post'? :tonguewag:

[muska]

Surely it's not allowed to 'drink and post'? :tonguewag:

I didn't know that was a rule.......I'm having a beer right now! :ohmy:

[GentleBreeze]

Surely it's not allowed to 'drink and post'? :tonguewag:

I dont know. Are you drinking?

I dont drink alochol but if you want to drink, I see nothing wrong with that. Enjoy!

imo

[bkwits]

Surely it's not allowed to 'drink and post'? :tonguewag:



Why not? You expect me to read some of these posts cold sober?:rolleyes:

[Perplexed1]

Why not? You expect me to read some of these posts cold sober?:rolleyes:

:lol::lol: You've got a point there.

[Perplexed1]

I didn't know that was a rule.......I'm having a beer right now! :ohmy:

Somehow I think you can handle it. :wink:

[Pag Boi]

I hope his Mother takes him far away from St. Johns, AZ and I would hope and assume she would get him Intense Therapy and all the Love and Support he will need.

ITA.

I'd be more suspicious of the child IF the collective judgment of the St. John's folks sided with the child's innocence. I hope this child's story can find a happy ending. But I believe it will have to begin anew outside that community to succeed. All JMOO

[muska]

OK, who is RYON SCARBROUGH?
(VR's Bro-in-law???)
TIA.

Looks like he is the brother-in-law -
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20193700&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505963&rfi=6

[Pag Boi]

o i found out about that
tiffany was faxing a friend to say she wished she could till vinny she was sorry about the fight they had the nite before
sounds fishy to me and alot of other people


This alleged Vinny fight the night before, do you think it took place b/f or after the alleged Vinny instructions to Tif to give the child 5 swats?

I am wondering what you would tell your friend in a fax that you couldn't say with donuts and milk? :)

Most of the details released sound fishy to me. Even the confession sounded fishy. And illegal. And now inadmissable.

[Hawk]

Upward angle? How do you know that either man was standing at the time of the headshots? :confused:

I believe the only head shot while standing was the one above the ear to Mr. Romero. But he was climbing the stairs so the angle was either pretty level or slightly downward. The height of the shooter would be hard to tell on that particular wound.

[muska]

Thank you!! Nice Family. OMG!!!!! NOT!

http://test.azcorrections.gov/isearch/inmate_datasearch/results.aspx?InmateNumber=177595&LastName=&FNMI=&SearchType=SearchInet

I don't know what to say so.............I'll just not say anything! :smile:
(except, I don't know how you find this stuff!)

[Hawk]

From Mrs. Romero's place of business, White Mountain Physical Therapy to Wilbur's store is 1.1 miles.
They are on the same street (Cleveland Street).
From Wilbur's to NAPA is 128'. It's on the same street as well. Might be in the same parking lot. Don't know.
From NAPA to the residence is .7 miles, one right turn and 1 left turn.

Why didn't she go home and pick the boy up while loafing around?

She checked out the second time at Wilbur's at 4:45 (according to Detective Neckel).
She spoke with Jean and Jason Kirk of St. John's Emergency Services in the parking lot, then traveled the 128' to NAPA.
The 911 call, at 5:03 or so, had to have come after she'd left the Kirks, unless they had an 18 minute howdy-do.
She was at NAPA for a couple of minutes (?) when she got the call from the boy at 5:12.
What am I missing?

[muska]

From Mrs. Romero's place of business, White Mountain Physical Therapy to Wibur's store is 1.1 miles.
They are on the same street.
From Wilbur's to NAPA is 128'. It's on the same street, Cleveland, as well.
From NAPA to the residence is .7 miles, one right turn and 1 left turn.

Why didn't she go home and pick the boy up while loafing around?

She checked out the second time at Wilbur's at 4:45 (according to Detective Neckel).
She spoke with Jean and Jason Kirk of St. John's Emergency Services in the parking lot, then traveled the 128' to NAPA.
The 911 call, at 5:03 or so, had to have come after she'd left the Kirks, unless they had an 18 minute howdy-do.
She was at NAPA for a couple of minutes (?) when she got the call from the boy at 5:12.
What am I missing?

He called at 5:12, didn't get her and then called back and got her at 5:14.

[Pag Boi]

I thought that weird too. Many of VR and TR buddies were at Wilbur's and recognized the address and saw sirens going that directions...but not Tiffany.


Even weirder to me is that Tif knew that VR needed another set of coveralls. It's so ironic that she was buying an outfit exactly like the one he was shot to death in. What a coinkydinky! Guess she was thoughtful that way unless it involved tending to her stepson. Or answering his 1st call. Taking his call 2 minutes later and being in NAPA 2 minutes must just be another coincidence.

[mrrogers]

[QUOTE=HotNostril;12711698]Upward angle? How do you know that either man was standing at the time of the headshots? :confused

UPWARD TRAJECTORY
well i could go into a long thing here about the headshots but youll just argue with it anyway so im savin my energy by saying "how do you know they werent
the only way to win IS NOT TO PLAY

[Pag Boi]

Here's an article on Mr. Carlyon from 2006;

"Everything had to be perfect........"

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2264&dept_id=506172&newsid=17321673&PAG=461&rfi=9

Catching up......from the link

After receiving a job offer from Navajo County, Carlyon packed up his family and moved to the White Mountains.

I got quite a bit of trial experience in the justice courts doing DUIs and had just started doing a little bit on the felonies when I was asked to do civil. I was bored on the misdemeanor stuff so I kept volunteering to do other things." Carlyon was soon doing cases involving planning and zoning issues and cases concerning the engineering department.


Excuse my ignorance but what type of prosecutor does civl work in the line of duty?

Do DA offices typically do work for the county/city with planning and zoning?

My experience has been that attys work for DA's office first to get experience and then move on to private practice. I love how Brad didn't do pro bono work when it was for his own firm (if ever):rolleyes:

[mrrogers]

I believe the only head shot while standing was the one above the ear to Mr. Romero. But he was climbing the stairs so the angle was either pretty level or slightly downward. The height of the shooter would be hard to tell on that particular wound.

who knows maybe youve read something i havent
so your telling me if someone shorter than you is standing lower than you the trajectory is gonna be downward ?
you believe ? where was that ive never read that

[mrrogers]

I don't know what to say so.............I'll just not say anything! :smile:
(except, I don't know how you find this stuff!)
aggravated dui and dangerous drugs could be alot worse

[mrrogers]

Even the outside expert not connected to the case, says:

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

They did find dozens of particles on his clothing.

He also stated : Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants."

But that is not the case here at all. Gunshot residue was present.

imoo

hooting then go home and count the number ill betcha its "thousands like howard said> gsr will survive a washing mach it can be transferred from a gun,it could have even come from neckles or avila, or sitting in a patrol car 36 is pretty much miniscule

[Pag Boi]

EXACTLY. I don't think anyone was interviewed in such an intimidating way. In EVERY other situation LE went to them. Work, home, park, parking lot, etc...but not this boy. Recorded with three uniformed and armed police officers.

In some cases, LE was being interviewed JMOO (see Tanya, Mark Mercer)

[mrrogers]

I believe the only head shot while standing was the one above the ear to Mr. Romero. But he was climbing the stairs so the angle was either pretty level or slightly downward. The height of the shooter would be hard to tell on that particular wound.
TO hawk and hot nostril
so that there is some closure to this on my part,
im also gonna tell ya the the same subject on websleuths is at about the same place as this one is
im still wondering how someone can be at the bottom of stairs shooting up since he fell on his chest and was going up the stairs and the bullet would make a LEVEL OR SLIGHT DOWNWARD trajectory?
so you all figure it out. ive got information im relying on and dont have to guess
im gonna tellya the results of the examination of the case that i was told is that the kid is innocent i accept that we ll all find out at some point in the future so i aint holdin my breath.
ive read somewhere about the height difference and they said the same thing i did .. so if you find the level or downward part you say it is post if for me so i can read it
you say you believe but are you certain where does it say that ?

[Pag Boi]

Do we really know what he did, for arguments sake say he did come in and see his dad on the steps. So how would a person lean down to look or maybe even try to move a loved one in that situation...leaning on knees on the step (gsr on pants) trying to turn over loved one, or even touching loved ones clothes (gsr on shirt). Yeah all speculation but because no one asked this kid pertinent questions all we can do at the moment is speculate.

It's a fact that the clothing was bagged improperly and gsr could have transfered. Who knows where or when the gsr got on the clothing. We can speculate as will the experts JMOO

[mrrogers]

There is no "missing" hundreds of thousands of particles.

IMO the GSR PATTERN indicates he was the shooter.

34 particles is what was found not thousands. so that tells you hes the guy huh. wow i just read backk a ways it would be in the THOUSANDS NOT 34 BUT WHO KNOWS maybe your on the edge of a new scientific breakthrough that completley disproves every rule and finding found since 1940
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html
rn by a child accused of murder in St. Johns tested positive for gunshot residue and his fingerprints were found on a box of ammunition, according to lab reports disclosed Monday.

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

The St. Johns boy is not being identified by The Arizona Republic because of his age.

Police accuse him of killing his 29-year-old father and 39-year-old Tim Romans with a .22 rifle on Nov. 5.

In a videotaped interview, the child first denied responsibility for the killings, then told police that he shot the men to end their suffering after they had been wounded by someone else.

Police reports said the boy later told a social worker that he had kept a tally of his spankings and vowed that 1,000 "would be his limit."

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."

St. Johns police, who viewed the boy as a victim at first, are under a gag order and could not be reached for comment. Prosecutors and defense attorneys also are prohibited from commenting on the case.

Residue controversial

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired. The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

John Cayton, a firearms examiner and former chief criminalist with the Kansas City, Mo., Police Department, said residue testing remains an important tool and described the number of particles found on the boy's clothes as "significant." But he also questioned whether the garments were contaminated elsewhere. Cayton added that it is not uncommon for small-town investigators to overlook evidentiary protocols because they often lack training and experience with homicides.

Boston police scrapped gunshot-residue tests in 2005 and the FBI followed suit a year later after acknowledging widespread contamination in its own lab, according to the Sun of Baltimore. Numerous other agencies have re-evaluated their validity.

Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants.

Proceedings against the boy have been suspended until his competency to stand trial is determined. Because he may be found incapable of understanding the legal system, Apache County prosecutors have sought to dismiss one homicide count, allowing them to charge him with that crime years from now, when he has matured.

Judge Pro Tem Michael Roca refused to allow the dismissal, prompting prosecutors to file an appeal with the state Court of Appeals. That issue is pending.

Third motion filed

Meanwhile, attorneys for the boy filed a third motion, seeking to hire a counselor who can help the defendant cope with emotional issues.

The defense wants those sessions to be confidential so that the child can receive treatment without his statements being used in court. Roca has refused, instead authorizing treatment by an Apache County probation counselor who could report findings to the court.

* Type Size: A A A
* Print
* Email
* Most Popular
*
* Buzz up!

Contextual linking provided by Topix


More on this topic

Multimedia

slideshow St. Johns Football - Playing through pain
document Read the police report
video County Atty. releases interview with 8-year-old

Stories

• Gunshot residue found on boy's clothing
• Expert: St. Johns boy, now 9, incompetent
• Police: Child vowed 1,000th spanking would be limit
blog Roberts: Boy's constitutional rights forgotten
• St. Johns looks for strength after slayings
• Friends dispute abuse suspicions in St. Johns slaying
• Priest: Slain dad taught son to use guns
azcentral.com
Latest News Headlines

* Sheriff's Office to transport inmates via light rail
* Acrobat falls to his death at Birds Nest event
* US-Mexico border fence almost complete
* Bill would dock lawmakers a day's pay for failing to vote
* Palin launches political action committee
* Bush rejected many clemency requests, records show
* Arizona universities offer $100M budget cut
* JP challenges speed cameras
* Obama to Muslims: Americans not your enemy
* Nation's economic mood darkens as more jobs vanish

[muska]

I see everyone stopped talking last night around one o'clock. Did all of you lose your connection too? A message came up on my screen that said the link to the site was broken (or something like that). I've never had that happen before!

[freddief]

this case is bizarre.....
things I don't understand. The kid gets off the bus at 3pm. The bus is a block away from home. When I was a kid and got off school, I;ld go home, do my homework, and then watch tv. What kid goes for a two hour walk? It's possible but highly unlikely.

Probably most neighbors get off work at 5pm so they probably would be at their homes til about 5:10 so there probably wouldnt be many people around.

I'm puzzled on the Eryn angle. Why did she give him up to Vince? How come she only saw the boy only a few time since she gave up or lost him? Why was she always moving? Did she do drugs? Why wasnt she paying money to the kid, like child support? Did she provoke the boy into doing it, as this happened right after she came to St. Johns?

I'm betting Eryn's visit pushed the boy over the edge.

[muska]

Hi all --

I've been lurking a while and following this discussion. Does anyone know if Candy's myspace page is still up or know the url for it?

Thanks a lot!:smile:

I can't help you with that information.......I don't know if it's still out there or not, but welcome to the discussion!!!

[muska]

this case is bizarre.....
things I don't understand. The kid gets off the bus at 3pm. The bus is a block away from home. When I was a kid and got off school, I;ld go home, do my homework, and then watch tv. What kid goes for a two hour walk? It's possible but highly unlikely.

Probably most neighbors get off work at 5pm so they probably would be at their homes til about 5:10 so there probably wouldnt be many people around.

I'm puzzled on the Eryn angle. Why did she give him up to Vince? How come she only saw the boy only a few time since she gave up or lost him? Why was she always moving? Did she do drugs? Why wasnt she paying money to the kid, like child support? Did she provoke the boy into doing it, as this happened right after she came to St. Johns?

I'm betting Eryn's visit pushed the boy over the edge.

Since there weren't many people around, anyone could have been in and out of that house in the short time available. I find it strange that people don't want to look at all possibilities.

Maybe he didn't like being at home alone. I know my kids didn't at that age.

[muska]

TO hawk and hot nostril
so that there is some closure to this on my part,
im also gonna tell ya the the same subject on websleuths is at about the same place as this one is
im still wondering how someone can be at the bottom of stairs shooting up since he fell on his chest and was going up the stairs and the bullet would make a LEVEL OR SLIGHT DOWNWARD trajectory?
so you all figure it out. ive got information im relying on and dont have to guess
im gonna tellya the results of the examination of the case that i was told is that the kid is innocent i accept that we ll all find out at some point in the future so i aint holdin my breath.
ive read somewhere about the height difference and they said the same thing i did .. so if you find the level or downward part you say it is post if for me so i can read it
you say you believe but are you certain where does it say that ?

I think some of us believe the shots inside the house came first from upstairs, but others think the first shots were from the bottom of the steps.

The chest shots to Tim Romans took a downward trajectory, according to the autopsy report, so that seems to imply that someone taller than TR would have made those shots. That would, of course, not be the boy. Those chest shots were also very close together suggesting that an automatic weapon might have been used.

Of course, there is much disagreement about all of this! :confused:

[GentleBreeze]

this case is bizarre.....
things I don't understand. The kid gets off the bus at 3pm. The bus is a block away from home. When I was a kid and got off school, I;ld go home, do my homework, and then watch tv. What kid goes for a two hour walk? It's possible but highly unlikely.

Probably most neighbors get off work at 5pm so they probably would be at their homes til about 5:10 so there probably wouldn't be many people around.

I'm puzzled on the Eryn angle. Why did she give him up to Vince? How come she only saw the boy only a few time since she gave up or lost him? Why was she always moving? Did she do drugs? Why wasn't she paying money to the kid, like child support? Did she provoke the boy into doing it, as this happened right after she came to St. Johns?

I'm betting Eryn's visit pushed the boy over the edge.

That part of his story just makes no sense to me. I could understand it if he had some of his friends walking with him and they were walking around the block, stopping to talk to other kids in the neighborhood or even playing ball in one of their yards but the walk around the block 10 times seems so far fetched. And meantime Nellie is still in her cage back at the house all that time.
Before this happened it has been stated that the boy was seen walking his puppy in the neighborhood, yet that day, knowing she had been cooped up all day, he lets her stay almost two more hours?:confused:

While most of the neighbors there probably worked I doubt that they were all away from their home during this time. He says he sees Cage but he thinks that Cage did not see him. You mean he continues to go around and around and around the block and Cage never notices him? If he waved to Cage then why not get Cage's attention, especially if he was just killing time?

imo

[rusure?]

I think some of us believe the shots inside the house came first from upstairs, but others think the first shots were from the bottom of the steps.

The chest shots to Tim Romans took a downward trajectory, according to the autopsy report, so that seems to imply that someone taller than TR would have made those shots. That would, of course, not be the boy. Those chest shots were also very close together suggesting that an automatic weapon might have been used.

Of course, there is much disagreement about all of this! :confused:

I have been in the shadows for awhile now. I have often wondered how an eight year old child could shoot two shots to the chest so close together with a rifle he could only shoot one shot at a time. It does not compute. It must have been an automatic weapon that made those shots. How else can it be explained?

[rusure?]

Why has it taken so long for the DA's office to disclose what is on the last suplement?

[muska]

I have been in the shadows for awhile now. I have often wondered how an eight year old child could shoot two shots to the chest so close together with a rifle he could only shoot one shot at a time. It does not compute. It must have been an automatic weapon that made those shots. How else can it be explained?

There are a lot of unanswered questions. Hopefully, they will not be ignored. Most of us would like to know where the Mossberg plinkster was that day and if it might have been the weapon or one of the weapons used. That gun is not recorded in evidence but there are pictures of its empty box in police photographs. So where is that weapon? Was it in the house that day? It's an automatic and holds 10 shots, just the number used that day.

[Hawk]

He called at 5:12, didn't get her and then called back and got her at 5:14.


I was going by Detective Neckels testimony to Mr. Brewer, there may be conflicting statements by other officers. Maybe we'll see the Verizon phone records, though I haven't seen where the list has submitted by the state.

My question is this; How could Mrs. Romero (I guess we should call her Devall since that's how she's listed on the witness list) have overheard the 911 call when she'd already left the Kirks? If she was at the murder scene prior to the call she couldn't have been at Wilbur's at the time. The only way she could have done it would be to say hello and goodbye to the Kirks, go home to do the deeds, then drive back to NAPA for her two minute visit before her phone rang a second time.

Make sense? Or did I not read something correctly?

[muska]

Why has it taken so long for the DA's office to disclose what is on the last suplement?

I don't know. Maybe some took a long time to get back and maybe they just put off disclosing as long as they could. It is probably not to their advantage to give anything to defense before they have to.

[muska]

I was going by Detective Neckels testimony to Mr. Brewer, there may be conflicting statements by other officers. Maybe we'll see the Verizon phone records, though I haven't seen where the list has submitted by the state.

My question is this; How could Mrs. Romero (I guess we should call her Devall since that's how she's listed on the witness list) have overheard the 911 call when she'd already left the Kirks? If she was at the murder scene prior to the call she couldn't have been at Wilbur's at the time. The only way she could have done it would be to say hello and goodbye to the Kirks, go home to do the deeds, then drive back to NAPA for her two minute visit before her phone rang a second time.

Make sense? Or did I not read something correctly?

IMO I think, most likely, Tiffany did not hear that call. If she's completely innocent, she would have checked it out immediately. If she was setting up an alibi, she would have acted very upset in front of the Kirks. I think she probably just missed that call.

I didn't see the second part of your post. I don't see Tiffany doing this herself. IF she had anything to do with it, I think she sent someone. That's just the way I feel about it.......I could be wrong.

Neckels did act a little uncomfortable, though, with Tiffany's time line so I suppose anything is possible. Also, I really don't know just how loud those calls are........I know some here have said they come in really loud.

[rusure?]

Most people don't stand still nor do they remain upright after such devastating shots. imo

If that is the case, then how could the defendent have shot two shots to Mr. Roman's chest so close together with single shots? Wouldn't the shots have to have been done in succession? If not, then please explain to me how two single shots could have been made to the chest so close together.

[rusure?]

I am not sure if anyone has already asked this, but where is the States 7th Supplemental Disclosure? I notice that it goes from 6th to 8th.

Why are transcripts of interviews with Tanya Romans and Tiffany Romero not listed in disclosures, but Eryn Bloomfield is? Didn't officers interview Tanya Romans and Tiffany Romero?

[Hawk]

IMO I think, most likely, Tiffany did not hear that call. If she's completely innocent, she would have checked it out immediately. If she was setting up an alibi, she would have acted very upset in front of the Kirks. I think she probably just missed that call.

I didn't see the second part of your post. I don't see Tiffany doing this herself. IF she had anything to do with it, I think she sent someone. That's just the way I feel about it.......I could be wrong.

Neckels did act a little uncomfortable, though, with Tiffany's time line so I suppose anything is possible. Also, I really don't know just how loud those calls are........I know some here have said they come in really loud.

I'm guessing they use the belt holster radio like the police. But I don't know. There does seem to be a brief timeline opportunity, but it seems highly unlikely to me, like you say, that she did the awful things herself. That doesn't exclude her participation though. Present or not.

I got cut off last night too, right in the middle of a reply. Thought I'd been banned.

[rusure?]

The calls can come in however loud you want them to. There is a volume control button. If it's anything like where I live, calls begin as a set of tones...My husband is a volunteer fireman and only responds when his tones come up. He has learned to sleep through every other call. I don't know of it works the same way as this town as described sounds very small. But all radios have volume control.

Is there a way to find out how SJ's works?

[muska]

I'm guessing they use the belt holster radio like the police. But I don't know. There does seem to be a brief timeline opportunity, but it seems highly unlikely to me, like you say, that she did the awful things herself. That doesn't exclude her participation though. Present or not.

I got cut off last night too, right in the middle of a reply. Thought I'd been banned.

I have always thought that if anything, Tiffany was setting up an alibi with all of her stops.......making sure she could prove she wasn't at the house.

That was weird last night.....glad it wasn't only my computer. That poster, RoyBean, had just posted for the first time........probably thinks we're a pretty unfriendly crowd!!

[Hawk]

I have always thought that if anything, Tiffany was setting up an alibi with all of her stops.......making sure she could prove she wasn't at the house.

That was weird last night.....glad it wasn't only my computer. That poster, RoyBean, had just posted for the first time........probably thinks we're a pretty unfriendly crowd!!

I hope not. Roy Bean was a frontier judge after all. Might have some interesting things to add to the discussion!

[Hawk]

I lost Candy's myspace link.

Links are dropping like flies. Took them a long time to catch on.

[muska]

I am not sure if anyone has already asked this, but where is the States 7th Supplemental Disclosure? I notice that it goes from 6th to 8th.

Why are transcripts of interviews with Tanya Romans and Tiffany Romero not listed in disclosures, but Eryn Bloomfield is? Didn't officers interview Tanya Romans and Tiffany Romero?

You have lots of great questions. We would all love more answers! Tanya and Tiffany were both interviewed briefly that first day. I read that Tiffany was interviewed a few days later and I think they must have interviewed Tanya too. Tanya had a lawyer right away and was said to be uncooperative, but you'd think she must have sat down with the police at some point.

Does anyone else know?

[muska]

I hope not. Roy Bean was a frontier judge after all. Might have some interesting things to add to the discussion!

I hope so!! But was he a fair judge or was it wild west justice?

[Hawk]

I hope so!! But was he a fair judge or was it wild west justice?

Google him when you have time. He was a character, alright! There was even an exaggerated movie about him staring Paul Newman.

[rusure?]

Who was the person who shot a hole in Roman's truck? Has that person been questioned or on the witness list. How many people have been questioned from the reservation? Was Misty's crazy boyfriend questioned? If so where is his interview transcript or is he on the witness list also?

Sorry for all the questions.

[rusure?]

Give me about 30 minutes...I'll call hubby and ask.

OK, thank you. I believe that would be good sound information to have.

[rusure?]

Since Nicole Allen is a close friend of Tiffany's, did officers question her?

Were the cashiers from Wilburs store questioned?

What was it Tiffany was doing at NAPA? Exchanging pants or purchasing? Did she leave pants there? Did anyone see her at NAPA?

Was Tanya questioned as to her whereabouts? Did anyone else have access to Roman's mother's car? If so were they questioned?

Did Romero have credit problems and that's why the house was in Tiffany's name?

[Hawk]

Who was the person who shot a hole in Roman's truck? Has that person been questioned or on the witness list. How many people have been questioned from the reservation? Was Misty's crazy boyfriend questioned? If so where is his interview transcript or is he on the witness list also?

Sorry for all the questions.

The hole was done by Mr. Romans cousin (or maybe cousin brother). Don't know if the San Carlos Police has questioned anyone there, or if there was a need to.

[rusure?]

Did officers question school personel about the boy's demeaner during the day of the murders? If so, where is the transcript or officers report of that?

Did anyone question the bus driver as to which way the boy went after getting of the bus? Did the bus driver notice anything unusual about his demeaner? Did others on the bus?

[rusure?]

The hole was done by Mr. Romans cousin (or maybe cousin brother). Don't know if the San Carlos Police has questioned anyone there, or if there was a need to.

Why would there not be a need to? Did anyone from SJ's police department question anyone there?

[rusure?]

I am so sorry for asking so many questions. I just want to know. I will stop asking questions for now and give you guys a chance to catch up.:blushing:

[rusure?]

I do have one more question. Was the trailer (or camper, mobile home) in the back yard ever searched? Did they have a warrant for that too?

[muska]

Who was the person who shot a hole in Roman's truck? Has that person been questioned or on the witness list. How many people have been questioned from the reservation? Was Misty's crazy boyfriend questioned? If so where is his interview transcript or is he on the witness list also?

Sorry for all the questions.

We don't know who they questioned. I think their minds were made up within 18 hours, maybe less. Even if they questioned these people, I wonder how hard they really looked. For instance, Brewer asked Neckels about her conversation with Tiffany the day after the shootings. Neckels pretty much told Tiffany that there was a problem with her story and gave her the correct answer....didn't wait at all to see what Tiffany might have said on her own. This is not to say that Tiffany wouldn't have answered the same way on her own, only to say Neckels should have wanted to see. That was the next day and I think their minds were already made up.

Tiffany was verified to be at NAPA.
I don't think it's going to help to know how the calls come in to their ambulances because we won't know how high their volume was turned up. I think it's unlikely Tiffany heard that call.