january 23 - 31

[alterEgo©]

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the Fishers might say in their response to the motion to dismiss/reassign on venue?

In some jurisdictions, the judge follows the case. I couldn't find one way or another if NC judges in NC do. Anyone know?

[Cardinal]

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the Fishers might say in their response to the motion to dismiss/reassign on venue?

In some jurisdictions, the judge follows the case. I couldn't find one way or another if NC judges in NC do. Anyone know?

I have no idea about the judge following the case, AE, but I'm not aware of a situation where that has happened. And I honestly think part of the COV motivation is to get this out of Sasser's courtroom.

As for the response from the Fishers, the best reason I can think of is that both their attorney and Jason's attorney are in Raleigh, and a COV would inhibit the caliber of their representation. I probably didn't say that well, but it's been a long day!

JMO

[Kat4Eagles]

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the Fishers might say in their response to the motion to dismiss/reassign on venue?

In some jurisdictions, the judge follows the case. I couldn't find one way or another if NC judges in NC do. Anyone know?

I don't know, but none of this should even be happening.
C belongs with Jason, and Jason should decide all the rest.
No one has bothered to interfere before this, no one was all that
concerned either.
Leave things the way they are, until or unless there is a real arrest.

Kat

[Cardinal]

I don't know, but none of this should even be happening.
C belongs with Jason, and Jason should decide all the rest.
No one has bothered to interfere before this, no one was all that
concerned either.
Leave things the way they are, until or unless there is a real arrest.

Kat

It's under the court's jurisdiction at the moment, Kat. We have to believe they'll do what's best for Cassidy.

Goodnight :seeya:

[Kat4Eagles]

It's under the court's jurisdiction at the moment, Kat. We have to believe they'll do what's best for Cassidy.

Goodnight :seeya:


I know that, Card, but the case could be completely dropped.

If the Fishers were to take C away from Jason, she could suffer immensely, and could also grow up to resent them for it.

She is at such a vulnerable age.

Kat

[Allyson]

Does anyone have an opinion as to what the Fishers might say in their response to the motion to dismiss/reassign on venue?

In some jurisdictions, the judge follows the case. I couldn't find one way or another if NC judges in NC do. Anyone know?

??? Good Question.

-Both attorneys are in Wake Co.

-Jason has a residence in Wake Co.

-Linda maintains a residence in Wake Co, Meredith resides at this residence

-Jason is not employed (that we know of) and therefore not prohibited from making the trip to Wake Co.

I am just guessing, obviously. I have no idea if these responses would have any merit.

[achristie]

I don't know, but none of this should even be happening.
C belongs with Jason, and Jason should decide all the rest.
No one has bothered to interfere before this, no one was all that
concerned either.
Leave things the way they are, until or unless there is a real arrest.

Kat

I was a firm believer from the start that the child was better off with her father. She had already suffered tremendously from the sudden loss of her mother and needed some sense of stability . I was never concerned about her safety after the fact because he could have easily done away with her when he murdered his wife. My sense is that the Fishers felt the same way before they realized they would be denied access or have limited access to Cassidy. That is why they never bothered to interfere. I think they had their concerns, but for the child's sake, chose to lay low. They placed their wants and needs aside for her. I think they were more than willing to leave things the way they are until an arrest . But as you have repeatedly stated this has taken waaay too long! They have had enough. They want to be a part of Cassidy's life. They want to keep her mother's memory alive and share the one part of MY that lives and breathes. Who can blame them?
I certainly can't.

MOO Aggie

[Allyson]

I know that, Card, but the case could be completely dropped.

If the Fishers were to take C away from Jason, she could suffer immensely, and could also grow up to resent them for it.

She is at such a vulnerable age.

Kat

In your opinion, why would Cassidy "suffer immensely" if she were removed from the Young household?

The same case could be made that she "suffered immensely" when she was whisked away to Transylvania and Henderson Counties, so far removed from her friends and Michelle's family. A case could also be made that Cassidy has not had a stable, steady home since being moved to the mountains and has been denied a relationship with her maternal family.

Who knows how this, coupled with being left alone with her murdered mother, has affected her?

[achristie]

I know that, Card, but the case could be completely dropped.

If the Fishers were to take C away from Jason, she could suffer immensely, and could also grow up to resent them for it.

She is at such a vulnerable age.

Kat

Sadly, in the end, I believe she will grow up to resent her father for murdering her mother and unborn brother. And she will suffer immensely, sweet child that she is. It's all wrong.

MOO Aggie

[Allyson]

I was a firm believer from the start that the child was better off with her father. She had already suffered tremendously from the sudden loss of her mother and needed some sense of stability . I was never concerned about her safety after the fact because he could have easily done away with her when he murdered his wife. My sense is that the Fishers felt the same way before they realized they would be denied access or have limited access to Cassidy. That is why they never bothered to interfere. I think they had their concerns, but for the child's sake, chose to lay low. They placed their wants and needs aside for her. I think they were more than willing to leave things the way they are until an arrest . But as you have repeatedly stated this has taken waaay too long! They have had enough. They want to be a part of Cassidy's life. They want to keep her mother's memory alive and share the one part of MY that lives and breathes. Who can blame them?
I certainly can't.

MOO Aggie

There is also the possibility that the evidence that Michelle's killer tried to drug Cassidy was not revealed to LF/MF until recently. They could have had their concerns, like you said, and kept them to themselves for private reasons, but no real basis for a custody suit until this information was shared with them.

I, too, had never thought that Cassidy was in danger due to the fact that she was left alive. However, after reading of the possibility that Cassidy MIGHT have been drugged that night, I had to think that the killer may have tried to end her life, too.

IMO

[achristie]

There is also the possibility that the evidence that Michelle's killer tried to drug Cassidy was not revealed to LF/MF until recently. They could have had their concerns, like you said, and kept them to themselves for private reasons, but no real basis for a custody suit until this information was shared with them.

I, too, had never thought that Cassidy was in danger due to the fact that she was left alive. However, after reading of the possibility that Cassidy MIGHT have been drugged that night, I had to think that the killer may have tried to end her life, too.

IMO

I agree, Allyson. I think the Fishers needed time to absorb the full impact of things. I also believe that they had the child's interests at heart from the very beginning. Little did they know they would be denied access. IMO the Young's brought this on themselves. It didn't need to go this far, but it is what it is.

MOO Aggie

[Lindsey]

I wish we had a pediatric mental health professional on this forum but we don't. I hope there will be one involved in the custody suit tho before any decisions are made about Cassidy.

JMO

[achristie]

I wish we had a pediatric mental health professional on this forum but we don't. I hope there will be one involved in the custody suit tho before any decisions are made about Cassidy.

JMO

I disagree. No need for a professional. It's all about common sense.

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

??? Good Question.

-Both attorneys are in Wake Co.

-Jason has a residence in Wake Co.

-Linda maintains a residence in Wake Co, Meredith resides at this residence

-Jason is not employed (that we know of) and therefore not prohibited from making the trip to Wake Co.

I am just guessing, obviously. I have no idea if these responses would have any merit.
As stated in Jason's motion, the location of the parties is not at issue - the location of the minor child is.

Jason does not have a residence in Wake Co, he has investment property and he does not live on that property.

It doesn't matter where counsel resides/practices in a venue or convience of witnesses issue.

It's not Jason's convience at issue - it's the convience of witnesses that is at issue.

[alterEgo©]

I wish we had a pediatric mental health professional on this forum but we don't. I hope there will be one involved in the custody suit tho before any decisions are made about Cassidy.

JMO
One of the Feb '08 warrants listed Cassidy counseling report as an item seized.

It's highly likely she is already seeing a pediatric mental health professional.

[Lindsey]

One of the Feb '08 warrants listed Cassidy counseling report as an item seized.

It's highly likely she is already seeing a pediatric mental health professional.

Yes, you are right. I had forgotten.

Surely this person will be a witness in the case.

[Allyson]

As stated in Jason's motion, the location of the parties is not at issue - the location of the minor child is.

Jason does not have a residence in Wake Co, he has investment property and he does not live on that property.

It doesn't matter where counsel resides/practices in a venue or convience of witnesses issue.

It's not Jason's convience at issue - it's the convience of witnesses that is at issue.

That could be a split, then (witnesses). There will be several witnesses for both sides who will be inconvenienced by travel.

I do think it was a pretty slick move by Jason to get a "job" at about the same time the COV was filed IF he does indeed have a job.

[alterEgo©]

That could be a split, then (witnesses). There will be several witnesses for both sides who will be inconvenienced by travel.

I do think it was a pretty slick move by Jason to get a "job" at about the same time the COV was filed IF he does indeed have a job.
Slick move or not, it's not his convience under consideration, it's the convience of witnesses.

I would think the court would place great weight on testimony from witnesses that can attest to matters in the last 2 years as they pertain to Jason's fitness to be a parent and Cassidy's behavior (happy, sad, withdrawn, etc). These recent issues should have more bearing in determining what is in the best interest of the child than stories from years ago.

The court will use past behavior to predict future behavior - but I haven't been able to pinpoint a frame of time that constitutes 'past' (2 yrs, 10 yrs, 13 mos,). So that prolly means it is determined on a case by case basis at the court's descretion.

[alterEgo©]

Yes, you are right. I had forgotten.

Surely this person will be a witness in the case.Absolutely as Jason has 'the child's psychologist' in item 14 of witness with first hand knowledge of her well being and care.

[alterEgo©]

It's not Jason's convience at issue - it's the convience of witnesses that is at issue.

My bad.

Jason's convience is indeed an issue before the court.

[alterEgo©]

I disagree. No need for a professional. It's all about common sense.

MOO Aggie
So ixnay the planitff's request for a PE of Jason?

[Kat4Eagles]

So ixnay the planitff's request for a PE of Jason?

Maybe, but I still don't understand how L E can just put out there the possibilty of the child (C) being drugged, and then just leave it there.

Without confirmation or denial.
Without a follow~up.
Without getting any one else involved.

Guess the tests came back negative then. but, meanwhile people can think the worst about Jason.
:shrug:

Kat

[Tia]

Maybe, but I still don't understand how L E can just put out there the possibilty of the child (C) being drugged, and then just leave it there.

Without confirmation or denial.
Without a follow~up.
Without getting any one else involved.

Guess the tests came back negative then. but, meanwhile people can think the worst about Jason.
:shrug:

Kat

Jason can deny all allegations against him. He can do this through his attorney and continue his "vow of silence".

He has chosen not to deny the claims against him, leaving us to speculate.

[5swab5]

Jason can deny all allegations against him. He can do this through his attorney and continue his "vow of silence".

He has chosen not to deny the claims against him, leaving us to speculate.

Yep.

So much for silence being golden, more like a guillotine.

MOO

[Tia]

Yep.

So much for silence being golden, more like a guillotine.

MOO

You'd think an innocent man would want to find his wife's murderer. You'd think he'd speak with LE or at least through an attorney give a statement to LE.
You'd think he'd defend himself in some way.

He has done NOTHING.

His wife was murdered in her own home while his daughter was in the home and he has done nothing but remain mute.

But the daily question here is "why didn't someone (the Fisher's or LE) intevene with Cassidy sooner".

Why are there no questions about Jason's lack of caring or interest in Michelle's murder?

JMO

[Allyson]

Maybe, but I still don't understand how L E can just put out there the possibilty of the child (C) being drugged, and then just leave it there.

Without confirmation or denial.
Without a follow~up.
Without getting any one else involved.

Guess the tests came back negative then. but, meanwhile people can think the worst about Jason.
:shrug:

Kat

It's unreasonable to assume that the tests came back "negative" just because the results have not been disclosed. The possibility that Cassidy was drugged was included in the SW to allow LE to collect Cassidy's DNA. The results of those tests, as well as others, will not be revealed until an arrest is made and it is entirely possible that that particular test came back inconclusive.

IMO, there is a ton of evidence that has not been made public and will not be made public until an arrest. Enough evidence that the lead investigator in this case has formed the opinion that Jason killed Michelle.

There is obviously SOMETHING that is holding up an arrest and I would love to have a clue as to what it is.

[Allyson]

You'd think an innocent man would want to find his wife's murderer. You'd think he'd speak with LE or at least through an attorney give a statement to LE.
You'd think he'd defend himself in some way.

He has done NOTHING.

His wife was murdered in her own home while his daughter was in the home and he has done nothing but remain mute.

But the daily question here is "why didn't someone (the Fisher's or LE) intevene with Cassidy sooner".

Why are there no questions about Jason's lack of caring or interest in Michelle's murder?

JMO

I agree totally. I know that Jason is doing what his attorney told him to do, but what I don't understand is WHY? Why has he gone over 2 years without one single conversation with LE? Jason has the power to tell his atty that he wants to cooperate and will answer questions in an effort to help the investigation. And before anyone chimes in with the famous "it's not Jason's job to help LE or solve this murder" that is not what I am saying. Jason, for all intents and purposes, is an innocent man who does not know who killed his wife and unborn child. He does not know who left Cassidy in the house alone with her murdered mother. Why would he not answer questions from LE immediately? he was out-of-town after all. Why did he tell his older sister in an email that the case would die down? Why would he want that to happen? He SHOULD want publicity. He SHOULD want her case to remain in the media with hopes that someone might eventually share some bit of info that leads to a break LE needs.

I understand doing what the attorney wants, I just don't understand why he has done this for 2 years and why there are people who think this is acceptable.

[Stellagant]

Maybe, but I still don't understand how L E can just put out there the possibilty of the child (C) being drugged, and then just leave it there.

Without confirmation or denial.
Without a follow~up.
Without getting any one else involved.

Guess the tests came back negative then. but, meanwhile people can think the worst about Jason.
:shrug:

Kat

Kat, LE didn't immediately "put it out there" a possibility the child was drugged. The warrant was sealed for over a year. They were looking for confirmation of her DNA on the medication spoon. There is no way to positively prove when she was given the medication, who gave it to her, what amount was given to her or even if it is tied to Michelle's murder. Their whole point is to advance their theory that the child was medicated to keep her quiet and impair her observations. Their theory could just as easily apply to Meredith or another party as it does to Jason, imo.

[bookie]

Kat, LE didn't immediately "put it out there" a possibility the child was drugged. The warrant was sealed for over a year. They were looking for confirmation of her DNA on the medication spoon. There is no way to positively prove when she was given the medication, who gave it to her, what amount was given to her or even if it is tied to Michelle's murder. Their whole point is to advance their theory that the child was medicated to keep her quiet and impair her observations. Their theory could just as easily apply to Meredith or another party as it does to Jason, imo.



Absolutely. If her dna was present it could have been from a dose weeks or months before the murder and given to her by Michelle, Meredith, Jason or anyone else who had been in the home.

[Allyson]

Absolutely. If her dna was present it could have been from a dose weeks or months before the murder and given to her by Michelle, Meredith, Jason or anyone else who had been in the home.

But LE had probable cause to suspect she may have been drugged and the judge then allowed them to collect Cassidy's DNA.

Who knows what other reasons LE had for needing Cassidy's DNA?

[Stellagant]

Absolutely. If her dna was present it could have been from a dose weeks or months before the murder and given to her by Michelle, Meredith, Jason or anyone else who had been in the home.

They needed CY's DNA to connect her with the medicine dropper. We don't know what else the child has said to LE or her psychologist but if she placed someone else with her during those many hours when we know absolutely that Jason wasn't there, that alone explains why there has been no arrest of Jason Young.

[Jester]

I agree totally. I know that Jason is doing what his attorney told him to do, but what I don't understand is WHY? Why has he gone over 2 years without one single conversation with LE? Jason has the power to tell his atty that he wants to cooperate and will answer questions in an effort to help the investigation. And before anyone chimes in with the famous "it's not Jason's job to help LE or solve this murder" that is not what I am saying. Jason, for all intents and purposes, is an innocent man who does not know who killed his wife and unborn child. He does not know who left Cassidy in the house alone with her murdered mother. Why would he not answer questions from LE immediately? he was out-of-town after all. Why did he tell his older sister in an email that the case would die down? Why would he want that to happen? He SHOULD want publicity. He SHOULD want her case to remain in the media with hopes that someone might eventually share some bit of info that leads to a break LE needs.

I understand doing what the attorney wants, I just don't understand why he has done this for 2 years and why there are people who think this is acceptable.
Bolding is mine ... you bring up an excellent contradiction between what most would consider normal, and what has happened. An innocent man would want the case to remain a priority for police, and to see it solved. In discussing suspicion of his involvement, Jason refers to a Durham case (Abaroa?) where the husband was under suspicion, but moved away and was forgotten. He also states that "hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest."
http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/4073105/

[bookie]

But LE had probable cause to suspect she may have been drugged and the judge then allowed them to collect Cassidy's DNA.

Who knows what other reasons LE had for needing Cassidy's DNA?



Seeing the bottles in the room was enough to lead to probable cause. It doesn't mean she was drugged but that wasn't my point. They can't prove she was drugged the night of Michelle's murder. Michelle could have given Cassidy a dose of medicine prior to her death.

[Stellagant]

Seeing the bottles in the room was enough to lead to probable cause. It doesn't mean she was drugged but that wasn't my point. They can't prove she was drugged the night of Michelle's murder. Michelle could have given Cassidy a dose of medicine prior to her death.

True but there is also evidence the child was kept away from her mother's body for the many hours we know Jason is documented to be out of town/state. Somebody kept CY occupied so whom will the jury believe it was?

[Barbara2]

True but there is also evidence the child was kept away from her mother's body for the many hours we know Jason is documented to be out of town/state. Somebody kept CY occupied so whom will the jury believe it was?

You don't know that. You don't know why she didn't step back into her mother's blood after she was initially cleaned up. Being physically kept from her is only one possibility. IMO

[tiny paw-prints]

One of the Feb '08 warrants listed Cassidy counseling report as an item seized.

It's highly likely she is already seeing a pediatric mental health professional.

It's quite likely that Cassidy has been evaluated by the county/state, and/or individual child psychologists since the date of her mother's murder. I wonder if she's been included in the state's Victim-Witness Assistant Program?

It is also quite possible that Cassidy might have been evaluated by an individual child psychologist PRIOR to the murder.

[Allyson]

They needed CY's DNA to connect her with the medicine dropper. We don't know what else the child has said to LE or her psychologist but if she placed someone else with her during those many hours when we know absolutely that Jason wasn't there, that alone explains why there has been no arrest of Jason Young.

No, "WE" do not know absolutely Jason was not there.

[Allyson]

Seeing the bottles in the room was enough to lead to probable cause. It doesn't mean she was drugged but that wasn't my point. They can't prove she was drugged the night of Michelle's murder. Michelle could have given Cassidy a dose of medicine prior to her death.

Actually, there are ways to determine if Cassidy was given those medicines within a certain time frame.

Medicines, when left out of their packaging (especially something that was probably syrupy like cough/cold med) changes consistency. A lab can determine approximately how long the residue was left in the dropper. If Cassidy's saliva was mixed with the Pancof or Tylenol, then the conclusion can be made that she was given the medicine. IF Jason's prints alone are found on the bottle and/or dropper it could be determined that he more than likely gave her the medicine within whatever time frame the lab determines. If Jason's prints are on the Pancof and the dropper and the dropper contains Pancof residue mixed with Cassidy's DNA, then LE has strong evidence to support their theory that Cassidy was drugged.

There is also a witness that saw Cassidy prior to her going to bed that evening that should be able to testify to whether or not Michelle gave Cassidy any medication or if Cassidy had been ill. Her daycare teachers should be able to sat whether or not Cassidy had been ill within whatever time frame the lab determines. Of course, Cassidy more than likely could have told if her mom or dad (or someone else) gave her medicine.

[Allyson]

True but there is also evidence the child was kept away from her mother's body for the many hours we know Jason is documented to be out of town/state. Somebody kept CY occupied so whom will the jury believe it was?

Jason could have very easily cleaned Cassidy up before or after giving her medicine that induces sleep and waited with her until she drifted off. He could have placed her in her mothers bed or she could have wandered into her mothers room and climbed into the bed and fell asleep again. He could have done all of this and still made it to his meeting in VA.

LE has shared nothing in the SW's that indicates Cassidy was occupied that morning. That is just board rumor and is not backed by fact.

[Allyson]

Bolding is mine ... you bring up an excellent contradiction between what most would consider normal, and what has happened. An innocent man would want the case to remain a priority for police, and to see it solved. In discussing suspicion of his involvement, Jason refers to a Durham case (Abaroa?) where the husband was under suspicion, but moved away and was forgotten. He also states that "hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest."
http://www.ncwanted.com/ncwanted_home/story/4073105/

No matter what the state of his and Michelle's relationship was at the time of her murder she was carrying his child. A son to carry on his name. He should want his sons killer caught. He should want Cassidy to have the peace of mind that her mothers murderer is behind bars as she grows up and learns more about what happened to Michelle.

Instead he says he hopes there will never be an arrest.

That just makes no sense to me.

[kingbuff]

No matter what the state of his and Michelle's relationship was at the time of her murder she was carrying his child. A son to carry on his name. He should want his sons killer caught. He should want Cassidy to have the peace of mind that her mothers murderer is behind bars as she grows up and learns more about what happened to Michelle.

Instead he says he hopes there will never be an arrest.

That just makes no sense to me.

Place it in context. All the publicity has been about him. He hopes the publicity about him will cease. He hopes he will not be arrested.

[Allyson]

Place it in context. All the publicity has been about him. He hopes the publicity about him will cease. He hopes he will not be arrested.

Well of course he hopes he will never be an arrest.

Jason has created the "publicity" about himself. If he were innocent or the least bit concerned with finding his wifes killer, then he would have put an end to this circus by answering LE's questions.

His actions are what lead LE to investigate him and focus on him. He caused this.

[Allyson]

Kingbuff,

Do you know if Jason puts any pressure on LE (directly or indirectly) to solve this case? Does he call or have his lawyer call the Detectives to check on the status? Does Pat? Or any member of his family?

It is very common for the family of murder victims to keep in contact with the detectives investigating the crime. Is this happening as far as the Young's are concerened?

[Kat4Eagles]

Absolutely. If her dna was present it could have been from a dose weeks or months before the murder and given to her by Michelle, Meredith, Jason or anyone else who had been in the home.


That's true, Bookie !!

I wonder if the GA friend witnessed Michelle giving C any medicine before she went to bed.

I know it was posted that she took C upstairs for her bath and that earlier she was supposedly watching her new Cinderella video that she received for Halloween.

What a tragic nite that was to come.

One minute you are watching a movie about a princess, the next day would be anything but a fairy tale.

:(

Kat

[Jester]

No matter what the state of his and Michelle's relationship was at the time of her murder she was carrying his child. A son to carry on his name. He should want his sons killer caught. He should want Cassidy to have the peace of mind that her mothers murderer is behind bars as she grows up and learns more about what happened to Michelle.

Instead he says he hopes there will never be an arrest.

That just makes no sense to me.

Any widower with a murdered wife who puts in writing that he hopes there will never be an arrest may avoid prosecution but, as you suggest, they are words his daughter could eventually read. Whether it is in Cassidy's best interests to remain with a father who has expressed so little concern for his murdered wife remains to be seen, but the damage Jason's stance (regarding the murder) has done will never be undone.

[Jester]

Place it in context. All the publicity has been about him. He hopes the publicity about him will cease. He hopes he will not be arrested.

In context, he claims to have a good lawyer and hopes there will NEVER be an arrest.

[Kat4Eagles]

It's quite likely that Cassidy has been evaluated by the county/state, and/or individual child psychologists since the date of her mother's murder. I wonder if she's been included in the state's Victim-Witness Assistant Program?

It is also quite possible that Cassidy might have been evaluated by an individual child psychologist PRIOR to the murder.


Victim-Witness Assistant Program when she was 2 1/2 at the time of the murder?

Huh?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

In context, he claims to have a good lawyer and hopes there will NEVER be an arrest.


Hi Jester:

That or the fact that there is not enough evidence exclusively pointing to Jason, or there would not be an attorney in the world that would be able to keep him out of jail.

In fact, all the attorneys in the world could not keep him from being arrested, if they had enough.
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

<snipped>

IMO, there is a ton of evidence that has not been made public and will not be made public until an arrest. Enough evidence that the lead investigator in this case has formed the opinion that Jason killed Michelle.

.


Every time I read a statement such as this, I still don't get it.

LE has tons and tons more evidence, and yet the case remains unsolved and no one is arrested.

Kat

[alterEgo©]

In context, he claims to have a good lawyer and hopes there will NEVER be an arrest.I don't recall reading the email wherein Jason said he hopes there will never be an arrest. Can you point me to it please.

[alterEgo©]

Every time I read a statement such as this, I still don't get it.

LE has tons and tons more evidence, and yet the case remains unsolved and no one is arrested.

KatAnd if all that evidence can't surpass suspicion, even strong suspicion, what good is it.

[bookie]

Actually, there are ways to determine if Cassidy was given those medicines within a certain time frame.

Medicines, when left out of their packaging (especially something that was probably syrupy like cough/cold med) changes consistency. A lab can determine approximately how long the residue was left in the dropper. If Cassidy's saliva was mixed with the Pancof or Tylenol, then the conclusion can be made that she was given the medicine. IF Jason's prints alone are found on the bottle and/or dropper it could be determined that he more than likely gave her the medicine within whatever time frame the lab determines. If Jason's prints are on the Pancof and the dropper and the dropper contains Pancof residue mixed with Cassidy's DNA, then LE has strong evidence to support their theory that Cassidy was drugged.

There is also a witness that saw Cassidy prior to her going to bed that evening that should be able to testify to whether or not Michelle gave Cassidy any medication or if Cassidy had been ill. Her daycare teachers should be able to sat whether or not Cassidy had been ill within whatever time frame the lab determines. Of course, Cassidy more than likely could have told if her mom or dad (or someone else) gave her medicine.



First off......the Pancof isn't the medicine in question, the Tylenol is. And the police will not be able to date usage to the exact day so they won't be able to positively claim she was drugged that night. At best they can insinuate she was but that's as far as they can take that claim.

Cassidy wasn't even 3 at the time of the murder. She wasn't going to be able to say someone gave her medicine on a certain day. Last night to her could have been a week before. Children that age have no real concept of time. There is only one way the police could prove she had been drugged. They should have taken her to the emergency room to be checked out but apparently they dropped that ball too.

[Allyson]

I don't recall reading the email wherein Jason said he hopes there will never be an arrest. Can you point me to it please.


http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/04/4076660/20081204120316663.pdf


page 5, near the bottom

[alterEgo©]

Seeing the bottles in the room was enough to lead to probable cause. It doesn't mean she was drugged but that wasn't my point. They can't prove she was drugged the night of Michelle's murder. Michelle could have given Cassidy a dose of medicine prior to her death.
Exactly! If Cassidy's DNA is on the dropper there is no way to prove/disprove it was deposited there in the hours surrounding the murder.

[alterEgo©]

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/04/4076660/20081204120316663.pdf


page 5, near the bottom
:confused: Jason is talking about his atty. And his atty hoping there will never be an arrest. And that Jason is his only concern.

:read:

[Allyson]

First off......the Pancof isn't the medicine in question, the Tylenol is. And the police will not be able to date usage to the exact day so they won't be able to positively claim she was drugged that night. At best they can insinuate she was but that's as far as they can take that claim.

Cassidy wasn't even 3 at the time of the murder. She wasn't going to be able to say someone gave her medicine on a certain day. Last night to her could have been a week before. Children that age have no real concept of time. There is only one way the police could prove she had been drugged. They should have taken her to the emergency room to be checked out but apparently they dropped that ball too.


Short of a confession, no one will ever know exactly what happened the night Michelle was murdered. I was simply stating to you that it is possible for the state to prove the theory that Cassidy may have been drugged the night her mother was murdered. How it is presented and whether or not it is believable is up to the prosecution, but the fact remains that it is possible for them to support the theory.

It is up to the defendant's attorney to dispute the evidence and make jurors believe the opposite. And Jason's atty's are very, very good at that.

And I agree, Cassidy should have been examined by a medical professional that day. That ball was definitely dropped.

[achristie]

Place it in context. All the publicity has been about him. He hopes the publicity about him will cease. He hopes he will not be arrested.


What publicity? I'd say it's been quite scarce. In fact, in the past, you have stated the Fishers are the only ones that have sought publicity. My take is JY has been quite sheltered from any media blitz. I attribute that to his silence, his family's, and MY's family. As much as I want the scoop, their restraint has served them well.

MOO Aggie

[Allyson]

:confused: Jason is talking about his atty. And his atty hoping there will never be an arrest. And that Jason is his only concern.

:read:

That's not how I interpreted it, and apparently I am not the only one he interpreted it differently than you did. Kingbuff interpreted it different than both if us.

That statement coupled with some of the other statements on page 6 sound like Jason is hoping there is never an arrest and the case will "die down".

He doesn't sound like the husband of an unsolved murder victim to me. he sounds more like someone who wants to hide and wait out the storm.

IMO

[alterEgo©]

First off......the Pancof isn't the medicine in question, the Tylenol is. And the police will not be able to date usage to the exact day so they won't be able to positively claim she was drugged that night. At best they can insinuate she was but that's as far as they can take that claim.

.
I always thought that was really really odd that they talk about the liquid tylenol in that affidavit but don't say a word about the Pancof.

[alterEgo©]

That's not how I interpreted it, and apparently I am not the only one he interpreted it differently than you did. Kingbuff interpreted it different than both if us.

That statement coupled with some of the other statements on page 6 sound like Jason is hoping there is never an arrest and the case will "die down".

He doesn't sound like the husband of an unsolved murder victim to me. he sounds more like someone who wants to hide and wait out the storm.

IMO
The entire paragraph is about his lawyer. They were talking about his atty. The statement is about his atty hopes (no arrest ever) and his concerns (his client Jason).

Futhermore, it's obvious the 'die down' talk is in regards to the buzz on the internet and in the news. Not about the investigation.

Context is such a wonderful thing.

[Allyson]

The entire paragraph is about his lawyer. They were talking about his atty. The statement is about his atty hopes (no arrest ever) and his concerns (his client Jason).

Futhermore, it's obvious the 'die down' talk is in regards to the buzz on the internet and in the news. Not about the investigation.

Context is such a wonderful thing.

Again, your interpretation.

[bookie]

Short of a confession, no one will ever know exactly what happened the night Michelle was murdered. I was simply stating to you that it is possible for the state to prove the theory that Cassidy may have been drugged the night her mother was murdered. How it is presented and whether or not it is believable is up to the prosecution, but the fact remains that it is possible for them to support the theory.

It is up to the defendant's attorney to dispute the evidence and make jurors believe the opposite. And Jason's atty's are very, very good at that.

And I agree, Cassidy should have been examined by a medical professional that day. That ball was definitely dropped.


Since Cassidy was never tested for anything the state CAN NOT prove their theory. They can insinuate and hope a jury buys it. Lab reports showing Tylenol in her system would prove she had been given the medicine within the time the murder happened. Her dna on a dropper doesn't prove when it was given to her.

[kingbuff]

The entire paragraph is about his lawyer. They were talking about his atty. The statement is about his atty hopes (no arrest ever) and his concerns (his client Jason).

Futhermore, it's obvious the 'die down' talk is in regards to the buzz on the internet and in the news. Not about the investigation.

Context is such a wonderful thing.

You're right. I should have taken my own advice and checked the context. I thought I remembered it.

[bookie]

Again, your interpretation.


"His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest."




Jason is obviously talking about his attorney.

[Allyson]

Since Cassidy was never tested for anything the state CAN NOT prove their theory. They can insinuate and hope a jury buys it. Lab reports showing Tylenol in her system would prove she had been given the medicine within the time the murder happened. Her dna on a dropper doesn't prove when it was given to her.

I disagree. The state would have sufficient evidence to support that theory based on the age of the medicine in the dropper and if it was mixed with Cassidy's DNA. Lab tests should be able to date the residue within a few hours of exact time. We don't know what other evidence LE has collected to support this theory, or even if they have any.

During trial, they will have enough to present the theory to a jury. It's their job to make the jury believe it or not and Jason's attorney's job to shoot it down. Of course they will present the fact that Cassidy was not tested or examined and that will be in the defense's favor.

[alterEgo©]

Again, your interpretation.It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of what is.

There is absolutely no way for the statement "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" to be split to make it half about Roger Smith and half about Jason and make any sense whatsoever.

The key words are 'and that'.

[Allyson]

"His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest."




Jason is obviously talking about his attorney.

Not obvious to me.

Sounds like he is saying he hopes there will never be an arrest.

And why would Jason want the media coverage of Michelle's case to die down? that only hurts the investigation.

Pressure from media and the citizens of Wake county only make the Sheriff's Dept. work that much harder to solve cases such as this one. They are elected officials and unsolved murders are bad publicity. Any news of Michelle's UNSOLVED murder puts pressure on the Sheriff.

[alterEgo©]

I disagree. The state would have sufficient evidence to support that theory based on the age of the medicine in the dropper and if it was mixed with Cassidy's DNA. Lab tests should be able to date the residue within a few hours of exact time. We don't know what other evidence LE has collected to support this theory, or even if they have any.

During trial, they will have enough to present the theory to a jury. It's their job to make the jury believe it or not and Jason's attorney's job to shoot it down. Of course they will present the fact that Cassidy was not tested or examined and that will be in the defense's favor.
Age of the medicine in the dropper? Can you show where a lab has ever dated meds in a dropper to 'within a few hours of exact time'.

[Allyson]

It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of what is.

There is absolutely no way for the statement "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" to be split to make it half about Roger Smith and half about Jason and make any sense whatsoever.

The key words are 'and that'.

I still think he is saying he hopes there will NEVER be an arrest. It is a matter of interpretation and what I think the context the rest of the email is.

You say toe-may-toe
I say toe-mah-toe

[Allyson]

Age of the medicine in the dropper? Can you show where a lab has ever dated meds in a dropper to 'within a few hours of exact time'.

Now, I cannot link any case but it can be done.

Not really all that hard.

Medicines break down and crystallize over time when exposed to air (as it would be if it were residue in a dropper). The properties of the medication change form.

Dating it to a few hours may be too exact, but it could definitely be dated to within a day.

[bookie]

I disagree. The state would have sufficient evidence to support that theory based on the age of the medicine in the dropper and if it was mixed with Cassidy's DNA. Lab tests should be able to date the residue within a few hours of exact time. We don't know what other evidence LE has collected to support this theory, or even if they have any.

During trial, they will have enough to present the theory to a jury. It's their job to make the jury believe it or not and Jason's attorney's job to shoot it down. Of course they will present the fact that Cassidy was not tested or examined and that will be in the defense's favor.


Lab tests dating the age of the residue in the dropper to "within hours" only happens on CSI.

[Allyson]

Lab tests dating the age of the residue in the dropper to "within hours" only happens on CSI.

No, it doesn't.

[alterEgo©]

Not obvious to me.

Sounds like he is saying he hopes there will never be an arrest.

And why would Jason want the media coverage of Michelle's case to die down? that only hurts the investigation.

Pressure from media and the citizens of Wake county only make the Sheriff's Dept. work that much harder to solve cases such as this one. They are elected officials and unsolved murders are bad publicity. Any news of Michelle's UNSOLVED murder puts pressure on the Sheriff.
Really? If that is the case, how in the world does the sentence still make 100% sense when the part about concern for Jason is removed?

His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest.

His ONLY concern is that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest.

No way to apply basic sentence structure and make it about Jason. I guess that's where spin comes in handy.

They weren't talking about media coverage, they were talking about buzz on the internet and on the street.

Well, gosh, there are 2 other high profile unsolved cases in Wake County. Isn't that enough pressure to get at least ONE of them solved?

[alterEgo©]

No, it doesn't.I've never heard of it ever being done. I would think something this ground breaking would make Forensic Files or something.

[alterEgo©]

Lab tests dating the age of the residue in the dropper to "within hours" only happens on CSI.
Don't forget Law & Order. :tonguewag:

[bookie]

No, it doesn't.



Then you would be able to provide a link showing it can be done but you have already said you can't provide a link. It can't be done.

[bookie]

Don't forget Law & Order. :tonguewag:



And the Closer. :wink:

[Allyson]

Really? If that is the case, how in the world does the sentence still make 100% sense when the part about concern for Jason is removed?

His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest.

His ONLY concern is that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest.

No way to apply basic sentence structure and make it about Jason. I guess that's where spin comes in handy.

They weren't talking about media coverage, they were talking about buzz on the internet and on the street.

Well, gosh, there are 2 other high profile unsolved cases in Wake County. Isn't that enough pressure to get at least ONE of them solved?

Yes, I would say that there is concern in Wake County over the unsolved murders. This one, Abaroa and the Neilsen murder have fallen off the radar (IIRC, Neilsen is being investigated by RPD). Citizens would like to know why there has been no arrest.

Why would he want ANY buzz to die down? His wife's murder is unsolved.

[alterEgo©]

Now, I cannot link any case but it can be done.

Not really all that hard.

Medicines break down and crystallize over time when exposed to air (as it would be if it were residue in a dropper). The properties of the medication change form.

Dating it to a few hours may be too exact, but it could definitely be dated to within a day.
Definately can be done, huh. Well then I guess they collected the dropper and sent it right in for residue dating. I hope it got top priority so that the meds didn't age any further and skew the results.

Within a day? That won't help the DA's case in proving any 'Cassidy was drugged at the time of the murder' theory. Especially in light of the fact that LE supplied an alternate theory of how Cassidy stayed so clean.

[alterEgo©]

Yes, I would say that there is concern in Wake County over the unsolved murders. This one, Abaroa and the Neilsen murder have fallen off the radar (IIRC, Neilsen is being investigated by RPD). Citizens would like to know why there has been no arrest.

Why would he want ANY buzz to die down? His wife's murder is unsolved.
It's a shame they all remain unsolved and that 3 killers walk free amoung us.

Why wouldn't he want all the ugly whispers about him to die down?

[Allyson]

Then you would be able to provide a link showing it can be done but you have already said you can't provide a link. It can't be done.

OK.

Then how do pharmaceutical companies determine dates for discard? How do they determine acceptable storage temps for meds?

Before a drug can be approved by the FDA, they are tested and retested for many different physical and chemical changes when exposed to different conditions and age.

[alterEgo©]

OK.

Then how do pharmaceutical companies determine dates for discard? How do they determine acceptable storage temps for meds?

Before a drug can be approved by the FDA, they are tested and retested for many different physical and chemical changes when exposed to different conditions and age.
Whao...FDA madatory testing has nothing to do with aging the residue of a med in a dropper.

[Allyson]

It's a shame they all remain unsolved and that 3 killers walk free amoung us.

Why wouldn't he want all the ugly whispers about him to die down?

Why would he care what is whispered about him among strangers? It's the murder of his wife and unborn child that matters. Not rumors about him.

[Allyson]

Whao...FDA madatory testing has nothing to do with aging the residue of a med in a dropper.

It's the same thing, only different applications.

[Barbara2]

OK.

Then how do pharmaceutical companies determine dates for discard? How do they determine acceptable storage temps for meds?

Before a drug can be approved by the FDA, they are tested and retested for many different physical and chemical changes when exposed to different conditions and age.

My daughter happens to be here visiting so I asked her. She worked in a research facility doing drug testing. She said that it could be dated based on how much water has evaporated from the residue in the dropper. She said that all medicines are mixed in something. (in terms of the liquid base). JOO

[alterEgo©]

Why would he care what is whispered about him among strangers? It's the murder of his wife and unborn child that matters. Not rumors about him.
Well he said he didn't care what was being said about him, it was Kim that brought it up.

[alterEgo©]

It's the same thing, only different applications.
Not the same thing at all.

[achristie]

It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of what is.

There is absolutely no way for the statement "His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest" to be split to make it half about Roger Smith and half about Jason and make any sense whatsoever.

The key words are 'and that'.

I agree. This isn't about Roger Smith. These are entirely JY's words.

MOO Aggie

[achristie]

Since Cassidy was never tested for anything the state CAN NOT prove their theory. They can insinuate and hope a jury buys it. Lab reports showing Tylenol in her system would prove she had been given the medicine within the time the murder happened. Her dna on a dropper doesn't prove when it was given to her.

Do we know for sure she was never tested?

[alterEgo©]

My daughter happens to be here visiting so I asked her. She worked in a research facility doing drug testing. She said that it could be dated based on how much water has evaporated from the residue in the dropper. She said that all medicines are mixed in something. (in terms of the liquid base). JOO
She said it could be? Or that has it has been?

In theory, lots of things 'could' be done. As in, someday we 'could' build space stations on Mars.

[Allyson]

Not the same thing at all.

Yes, it is.

The premise is the same, just for a different purpose.

It can be done. It may not be done everyday and it may not have ever been done in a criminal investigation, but it can be done.

[alterEgo©]

Do we know for sure she was never tested?Ya think they are so incompetent that they would draw her blood to test her for drugs but not at the same time get a DNA sample?

[achristie]

Ya think they are so incompetent that they would draw her blood to test her for drugs but not at the same time get a DNA sample?


Oh relax, AE. Retrieving a sample for DNA late in the game has nothing to do with early blood tests to see if there were drugs in her system. You know what I am talking about. Why must you be so argumentative?

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

Yes, it is.

The premise is the same, just for a different purpose.

It can be done. It may not be done everyday and it may not have ever been done in a criminal investigation, but it can be done.So you honestly think they sent the dropper to the lab upon finding it and had this new never before testing peformed and then sent the dropper back to WCSO?

But it didn't occur to them at that time to test it for Cassidy's DNA?

You pose an interesting theory, but I don't think it could be done and certainly not done with any degree of accurate results. As always, I reserve the right to be wrong. :smile:

[alterEgo©]

Oh relax, AE. Retrieving a sample for DNA late in the game has nothing to do with early blood tests to see if there were drugs in her system. You know what I am talking about. Why must you be so argumentative?

MOO AggieSounds like you need to relax as all I did was ask a simple question.

[catdoc]

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/12/04/4076660/20081204120316663.pdf


page 5, near the bottom

I can not find where he says anything about not wanting an arrest on page 5 or any other.

Just a guest trying to find out about this case.

[achristie]

Sounds like you need to relax as all I did was ask a simple question.


OMG ! Are you Mimi? You sure sound like her!

MOO Aggie

[catdoc]

:confused: Jason is talking about his atty. And his atty hoping there will never be an arrest. And that Jason is his only concern.

:read:

Can't find this either. Just JY and MM talking about their "love". Could someone check the link? Maybe I'm just lost. Sorry.

[Allyson]

So you honestly think they sent the dropper to the lab upon finding it and had this new never before testing peformed and then sent the dropper back to WCSO?

But it didn't occur to them at that time to test it for Cassidy's DNA?

You pose an interesting theory, but I don't think it could be done and certainly not done with any degree of accurate results. As always, I reserve the right to be wrong. :smile:

I don't know, AE. But I do know what I am talking about as far as dating the residue in the dropper. Over time, medications (especially combo meds like Tylenol Cold) begin to separate and break down. This is due to exposure to air (evaporation like Barbra said) and other environmental conditions.

This is not "new never before testing". It's a simple lab test.

Do I think it was done in this case? Who knows? It would have been great if it had been, but it would have also been great if Cassidy had been examined and had a blood specimen collected that day. But as far as anyone knows, she wasn't examined and she did not have blood drawn. The testing of medicine residue would not have been necessary if Cassidy had traces of either of the meds listed in the SW in her system. All that would have been needed would have been prints off the bottles and droppers.

As far as collecting DNA on scene from Cassidy--Would LE be able to swab the cheek or draw blood from a 2 1/2 year old without permission from a parent or a court order?

[kingbuff]

I don't know, AE. But I do know what I am talking about as far as dating the residue in the dropper. Over time, medications (especially combo meds like Tylenol Cold) begin to separate and break down. This is due to exposure to air (evaporation like Barbra said) and other environmental conditions.

This is not "new never before testing". It's a simple lab test.

Do I think it was done in this case? Who knows? It would have been great if it had been, but it would have also been great if Cassidy had been examined and had a blood specimen collected that day. But as far as anyone knows, she wasn't examined and she did not have blood drawn. The testing of medicine residue would not have been necessary if Cassidy had traces of either of the meds listed in the SW in her system. All that would have been needed would have been prints off the bottles and droppers.

As far as collecting DNA on scene from Cassidy--Would LE be able to swab the cheek or draw blood from a 2 1/2 year old without permission from a parent or a court order?

They had a search warrant. And parent permission. Jason cooperated.
No link. Label it JMO.

[kingbuff]

So you honestly think they sent the dropper to the lab upon finding it and had this new never before testing peformed and then sent the dropper back to WCSO?

But it didn't occur to them at that time to test it for Cassidy's DNA?

You pose an interesting theory, but I don't think it could be done and certainly not done with any degree of accurate results. As always, I reserve the right to be wrong. :smile:

Don't know when the dropper was tested. About 9 months before Spivey took DNA.

[catdoc]

OK, Found where JY says to Kim Young in an e-mail that Roger 's only concern is Jason and he (Roger) hopes there will never be an arrest. Now I will go back and find out if Roger is the lawyer.

Have a good day.!

[bookie]

Do we know for sure she was never tested?



If she had been taken to the hospital that day it would have been reported in the media. Her condition may not have been released but there's no way the media wouldn't have known she was taken to the hospital.

[Allyson]

If she had been taken to the hospital that day it would have been reported in the media. Her condition may not have been released but there's no way the media wouldn't have known she was taken to the hospital.

I don't think she was.

No link. JMO

[kingbuff]

Why would he care what is whispered about him among strangers? It's the murder of his wife and unborn child that matters. Not rumors about him.

Spivey and cohorts whispered rather loudly to the media via search warrants and 'not cooperating' comments. They tried to force him to come in and be grilled. It didn't work. It was the murder of his wife and unborn child that mattered to him. And caring for Cassie.

[alterEgo©]

I agree. This isn't about Roger Smith. These are entirely JY's words.

MOO Aggie
ya, they are Jason's words about Roger Smith.

[bookie]

I can not find where he says anything about not wanting an arrest on page 5 or any other.

Just a guest trying to find out about this case.




If you are going by the page counter it's actually page 6.

[kingbuff]

OK, Found where JY says to Kim Young in an e-mail that Roger 's only concern is Jason and he (Roger) hopes there will never be an arrest. Now I will go back and find out if Roger is the lawyer.

Have a good day.!

Hi, Catdoc. Welcome to the board. Drag up a chair. Roger is the lawyer.

[alterEgo©]

If she had been taken to the hospital that day it would have been reported in the media. Her condition may not have been released but there's no way the media wouldn't have known she was taken to the hospital.

Not only that, but what would she have been tested for? Tylenol? Cuz they didn't seem to even notice the Pancof for several more months.

[Allyson]

Spivey and cohorts whispered rather loudly to the media via search warrants and 'not cooperating' comments. They tried to force him to come in and be grilled. It didn't work. It was the murder of his wife and unborn child that mattered to him. And caring for Cassie.

Spivey and cohorts = Investigators in Michelle's murder. Not the bad guys. The guys who want whoever killed Michelle and her baby arrested. It's their job. It's not personal.

Grilled= interviewed. Standard for the spouse of a murder victim. Nothing nefarious. Take your lawyer and be interviewed. If it turns into a grilling, you leave.

The murder of his wife and child matters to him= I keep my mouth shut so I can remain a free man as long as possible.



Interesting discussion today but I am outta here because I feel the discussion might go south now.

Peace.

[Stellagant]

You don't know that. You don't know why she didn't step back into her mother's blood after she was initially cleaned up. Being physically kept from her is only one possibility. IMO

Yes, we do know as fact that Jason attended a business meeting in Virginia, hours from Raleigh. CY was found in the same room with her mother, according to the person who says she found her. What other explanations are there to explain why the child had no blood on her hands or clothes? LE concluded she was physically kept from her mother. There were hours Jason can be accounted for elsewhere. It is what it is. It is impossible to connect Jason to the real fact the child was found in the same room and yet had no blood on her.

[alterEgo©]

I don't know, AE. But I do know what I am talking about as far as dating the residue in the dropper. Over time, medications (especially combo meds like Tylenol Cold) begin to separate and break down. This is due to exposure to air (evaporation like Barbra said) and other environmental conditions.

This is not "new never before testing". It's a simple lab test.

Do I think it was done in this case? Who knows? It would have been great if it had been, but it would have also been great if Cassidy had been examined and had a blood specimen collected that day. But as far as anyone knows, she wasn't examined and she did not have blood drawn. The testing of medicine residue would not have been necessary if Cassidy had traces of either of the meds listed in the SW in her system. All that would have been needed would have been prints off the bottles and droppers.

As far as collecting DNA on scene from Cassidy--Would LE be able to swab the cheek or draw blood from a 2 1/2 year old without permission from a parent or a court order?

Ok :smile:
(it doesn't sound like a simple lab test - it sounds like something that requires lots of math and I hate math :laugh: )

They could not have collected saliva/blood from Cassidy at the scene, they aren't equipped to do that. And they would have needed a warrant or parental consent to take her to a hosp or lab to have anything collected.

[Stellagant]

Since Cassidy was never tested for anything the state CAN NOT prove their theory. They can insinuate and hope a jury buys it. Lab reports showing Tylenol in her system would prove she had been given the medicine within the time the murder happened. Her dna on a dropper doesn't prove when it was given to her.

also, Tylenol wouldn't make CY sleepy. The fantasy being woven here that Jason knew the exact dosage of medicine required to make the child sleep until the very moment Meredith arrived is quite entertaining in an absurd sorta way.

[Stellagant]

Lab tests dating the age of the residue in the dropper to "within hours" only happens on CSI.

Yes and CSI is fiction.

This very real case of non-fiction wasn't solved in an hour, either.

[Stellagant]

She said it could be? Or that has it has been?

In theory, lots of things 'could' be done. As in, someday we 'could' build space stations on Mars.

So very true, AE. When testing is done days later, it would impossible to date the residue in a medicine dropper to within hours of when it was placed there. Michelle herself could have administered it but if she did, her prints would be on it.

LE would have to find fingerprints or DNA on one end of the dropper to tie it to the giver and they needed Cassidy's DNA on the other to tie the dropper to her. If the killer gave the drops to CY, the dropper handle was probably wiped clean and that's why LE concluded the child was possibly drugged.

[Stellagant]

I don't know, AE. But I do know what I am talking about as far as dating the residue in the dropper. Over time, medications (especially combo meds like Tylenol Cold) begin to separate and break down. This is due to exposure to air (evaporation like Barbra said) and other environmental conditions.

This is not "new never before testing". It's a simple lab test.

Do I think it was done in this case? Who knows? It would have been great if it had been, but it would have also been great if Cassidy had been examined and had a blood specimen collected that day. But as far as anyone knows, she wasn't examined and she did not have blood drawn. The testing of medicine residue would not have been necessary if Cassidy had traces of either of the meds listed in the SW in her system. All that would have been needed would have been prints off the bottles and droppers.

As far as collecting DNA on scene from Cassidy--Would LE be able to swab the cheek or draw blood from a 2 1/2 year old without permission from a parent or a court order?

As was the s/w for the house and Jason's car, such a court order for her DNA would be easily obtained. But it still wouldn't prove WHO dispensed the medicine to the child.

[Cardinal]

"His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest." (Link upthread)

FWIW, I also interpret Jason's comments in his email exchange with Kim to mean that he hopes there will never be an arrest in this case. And I agree that is a strange position for someone to take regarding the murder of their wife and child.

But for those who interpret it to mean the Smith hopes there will never be an arrest, why would Jason's attorney hope that no one will ever be arrested for Michelle's murder? As long as NO ONE is arrested, Jason will remain under suspicion - not a situation his attorney would welcome, IMO.

JMO

[Cardinal]

ITA. And, I feel the only way JY will get away from suspicion at this point (other than the arrest of someone else for his wife's murder) is if he actually cooperates police and explains some of the circumstantial findings (even if it is denying he looked up things like "head trauma knockout", etc.). However, that cooperation should have happened way before now. This late in the game, I am not sure people would even take it seriously. Showing any concern, say a little over 2 years ago, would have went a long way to tone down any whispers.

If Jason were to decide to cooperate with the investigation at this point, I would take it seriously - although I highly doubt he will.

But I agree it would have helped with public opinion, and I think it would have helped with LE's opinion as well. I think it went a long way with Jenna Nielsen's husband.

JMO

[alterEgo©]

"His ONLY concern is for me and that hopefully there will NEVER be an arrest." (Link upthread)

FWIW, I also interpret Jason's comments in his email exchange with Kim to mean that he hopes there will never be an arrest in this case. And I agree that is a strange position for someone to take regarding the murder of their wife and child.

But for those who interpret it to mean the Smith hopes there will never be an arrest, why would Jason's attorney hope that no one will ever be arrested for Michelle's murder? As long as NO ONE is arrested, Jason will remain under suspicion - not a situation his attorney would welcome, IMO.

JMOHow in the world can you chop up that sentence and make half of it about Roger Smith and the other half about Jason? Take out 'for me and' and it's still all about Roger. So how does it ever become about Jason wanting no arrest?

Sounds to me like Jason is saying that Roger hopes there is never an arrest of Jason. You know, the one he has concern for.

[Cardinal]

How in the world can you chop up that sentence and make half of it about Roger Smith and the other half about Jason? Take out 'for me and' and it's still all about Roger. So how does it ever become about Jason wanting no arrest?

Sounds to me like Jason is saying that Roger hopes there is never an arrest of Jason. You know, the one he has concern for.

I didn't chop up the sentence, AE. Jason's comments (plural) in the exchange with Kim make me think he could care less whether or not there is an arrest for Michelle's murder:

"The only thing that matters is the investigation itself and you can see that it has led to nothing." I see no concern whatsoever about the fact that the investigation has led to nothing.

"...in time, things will die down." Die down??? He wants things to die down???

Viewed as whole, I see nothing in this email exchange to indicate that Jason gives a flying flip that his wife and unborn child see justice.

But I agree that the one sentence, unchopped, is about Roger Smith. And I still find it strange that Jason's attorney would be satisfied that his client may be presumed guilty in the court of public opinion.

JMO

[lonetraveler]

No matter what the state of his and Michelle's relationship was at the time of her murder she was carrying his child. A son to carry on his name. He should want his sons killer caught. He should want Cassidy to have the peace of mind that her mothers murderer is behind bars as she grows up and learns more about what happened to Michelle.

Instead he says he hopes there will never be an arrest.

That just makes no sense to me.

---
ITA, of course he doesn't want an arrest, because that arrest will most likely be for him. I'm so sick of men who no longer want to be married and "tied down" and decide to murder instead of divorce. It seems to be "Open Hunting Season" on women in this country. I feel that Jason did murder his wife and hope that he is arrested soon.

[Cardinal]

---
ITA, of course he doesn't want an arrest, because that arrest will most likely be for him. I'm so sick of men who no longer want to be married and "tied down" and decide to murder instead of divorce. It seems to be "Open Hunting Season" on women in this country. I feel that Jason did murder his wife and hope that he is arrested soon.

OTOH, there are men who murder their wives because their wives planned to leave THEM:

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4392729/

"Authorities say Chavis beat his wife with a baseball bat as she slept in their Carthage home, then pressed a pillow over her face for at least seven minutes to make sure she was dead."

Chilling, isn't it? I still believe that if Jason killed Michelle, it was because SHE wanted out of the marriage.

JMO

[alterEgo©]

I didn't chop up the sentence, AE. Jason's comments (plural) in the exchange with Kim make me think he could care less whether or not there is an arrest for Michelle's murder:

"The only thing that matters is the investigation itself and you can see that it has led to nothing." I see no concern whatsoever about the fact that the investigation has led to nothing.

"...in time, things will die down." Die down??? He wants things to die down???

Viewed as whole, I see nothing in this email exchange to indicate that Jason gives a flying flip that his wife and unborn child see justice.

But I agree that the one sentence, unchopped, is about Roger Smith. And I still find it strange that Jason's attorney would be satisfied that his client may be presumed guilty in the court of public opinion.

JMOThey were discussing public whispers about him being a killer when the 'die down' comment was made.

If you recall, this same law firm made no public statement about the Duke LaCross players until after they were indicted even tho public opinion about them, for the most part, was dismal at best.

Maybe Jason doesn't care. There is no legal requirement that says he has to. Maybe LE left out the part where he discussed just how much he cared. Who knows.

[alterEgo©]

---
ITA, of course he doesn't want an arrest, because that arrest will most likely be for him. I'm so sick of men who no longer want to be married and "tied down" and decide to murder instead of divorce. It seems to be "Open Hunting Season" on women in this country. I feel that Jason did murder his wife and hope that he is arrested soon.
What about women who do the same.

[Cardinal]

They were discussing public whispers about him being a killer when the 'die down' comment was made.

If you recall, this same law firm made no public statement about the Duke LaCross players until after they were indicted even tho public opinion about them, for the most part, was dismal at best.

Maybe Jason doesn't care. There is no legal requirement that says he has to. Maybe LE left out the part where he discussed just how much he cared. Who knows.

No, AE, there is no legal requirement that Jason care. But what does it say about him if he doesn't? And what perspective does it give the evidence if he doesn't?

[Allyson]

No, AE, there is no legal requirement that Jason care. But what does it say about him if he doesn't? And what perspective does it give the evidence if he doesn't?


I agree, Cardinal.

His silence (no matter how frustrating to LE) does not equate guilt.

It's his silence on top of everything else that makes me think he murdered his wife.

[alterEgo©]

No, AE, there is no legal requirement that Jason care. But what does it say about him if he doesn't? And what perspective does it give the evidence if he doesn't?
That if he doesn't care in death, how could he care in life about his wife.

Of course LE will use it against him. Cuz, as everyone knows, everything you say will be used against you.

That's assuming of course that the full context of the email exhange shows it be about Jason not caring at all about the status of the investigation.

[alterEgo©]

I agree, Cardinal.

His silence (no matter how frustrating to LE) does not equate guilt.

It's his silence on top of everything else that makes me think he murdered his wife.
Why is that?

[Cardinal]

That if he doesn't care in death, how could he care in life about his wife.

Of course LE will use it against him. Cuz, as everyone knows, everything you say will be used against you.

That's assuming of course that the full context of the email exhange shows it be about Jason not caring at all about the status of the investigation.

That isn't what I meant, AE. He may or may not have cared about Michelle. But he has demonstrated no caring at all about justice for his wife and unborn son. That implies certain things to me about his character and impacts my perspective of the evidence in this case.

And you can bet, if he's ever tried for Michelle's murder, it will imply certain things to the jury and impact their perspective of the evidence. Like it or not, people - including people on juries - impose their own value system in evaluating matters.

JMO

[Allyson]

Why is that?


IMO, its not one thing that makes me think he killed Michelle, it's everything together.

The computer printout to get Meredith over there, the out-of-town business trip, the stopping in Hillsville -not far enough away to make it impossible for him to go back to Raleigh- being late for the meeting. All of the information that was revealed in the SW's.

The treatment of Linda Fisher since the murder. How is that respecting his wifes memory? It is very clear that Linda was a very big part of Cassidy's life before the murder and then all of a sudden she was removed...just like her mother.

Having a girlfriend (a maybe more than one).

Spending the anniv of Michelle's death in paradise while his wife and son lay buried in a graveyard in Raleigh. I don't blame Jason for wanting to get away, I might have wanted to do the same thing, but to go to Puerto Rico just does not give the appearance of an innocent grieving husband.

There are so many more...and I know that there have been many individual explanations for all that I have listed, but at some point you have to step back and ask why you are making so many excuses for his odd behavior...and think that maybe too many excuses have been made for him by others while he has sat back and traveled over the past two years.

[alterEgo©]

That isn't what I meant, AE. He may or may not have cared about Michelle. But he has demonstrated no caring at all about justice for his wife and unborn son. That implies certain things to me about his character and impacts my perspective of the evidence in this case.

And you can bet, if he's ever tried for Michelle's murder, it will imply certain things to the jury and impact their perspective of the evidence. Like it or not, people - including people on juries - impose their own value system in evaluating matters.

JMOI think we are saying the same thing, but with different words.

That's assuming the emails are allowed in - right now, it would be a hard argument to say they have probative value that outweighs prejudical value.

[Cardinal]

I think we are saying the same thing, but with different words.

That's assuming the emails are allowed in - right now, it would be a hard argument to say they have probative value that outweighs prejudical value.

Maybe so, AE. But whether or not the emails are allowed into evidence, there will still be the testimony of the investigating officers regarding Jason's lack of cooperation.

[bookie]

IMO, its not one thing that makes me think he killed Michelle, it's everything together.

The computer printout to get Meredith over there, the out-of-town business trip, the stopping in Hillsville -not far enough away to make it impossible for him to go back to Raleigh- being late for the meeting. All of the information that was revealed in the SW's.

The treatment of Linda Fisher since the murder. How is that respecting his wifes memory? It is very clear that Linda was a very big part of Cassidy's life before the murder and then all of a sudden she was removed...just like her mother.

Having a girlfriend (a maybe more than one).

Spending the anniv of Michelle's death in paradise while his wife and son lay buried in a graveyard in Raleigh. I don't blame Jason for wanting to get away, I might have wanted to do the same thing, but to go to Puerto Rico just does not give the appearance of an innocent grieving husband.

There are so many more...and I know that there have been many individual explanations for all that I have listed, but at some point you have to step back and ask why you are making so many excuses for his odd behavior...and think that maybe too many excuses have been made for him by others while he has sat back and traveled over the past two years.




I have a very good male friend whose wife died of cancer. Before the 1st anniversary of her death he was remarried. He didn't go to her grave on the anniversary. People grieve differently and what you think should have been done is fine for you but it may not be what others would do.

Cynthia Sommer got breast implants and slept with her dead husbands friends. She wasn't guilty of murder because Todd wasn't murdered but she was convicted of murder because 12 people thought her actions were inappropriate. Again....it may not be what you or I or the jurors would have done but it was what she did while grieving the death of her husband.

[Cardinal]

~snipped for emphasis~

She wasn't guilty of murder because Todd wasn't murdered but she was convicted of murder because 12 people thought her actions were inappropriate.

Exactly my point.

[Allyson]

I have a very good male friend whose wife died of cancer. Before the 1st anniversary of her death he was remarried. He didn't go to her grave on the anniversary. People grieve differently and what you think should have been done is fine for you but it may not be what others would do.

Cynthia Sommer got breast implants and slept with her dead husbands friends. She wasn't guilty of murder because Todd wasn't murdered but she was convicted of murder because 12 people thought her actions were inappropriate. Again....it may not be what you or I or the jurors would have done but it was what she did while grieving the death of her husband.


But your friend knew what happened to his wife. He knew cancer took her, she was buried and it was final. The circumstances are entirely different. Jason supposedly does not know what happened to his wife. She was murdered and if he didn't do it, that means someone else did. And this person is walking free. And while this murderer is out there and not paying for his crime, Jason is vacationing and dating and not allowing Cassidy to have a relationship with Michelle's family.

I am definitely not judging how someone grieves. I don't know what Jason has done in private or if he has done anything at all. What I am saying is that his behavior or lack thereof, along with everything else that has been learned over the past 2 years AND what I knew of him before Michelle's murder, leads me to believe he killed his wife.

[alterEgo©]

Maybe so, AE. But whether or not the emails are allowed into evidence, there will still be the testimony of the investigating officers regarding Jason's lack of cooperation.
Sorry Card, but there will be no such testimony in any criminal trial. What LE calls 'lack of cooperation' the US Constitution calls 'the right to remain silent'.

[alterEgo©]

Allyson--

The behaviors you list can certainly cast suspicion. Behavior as a piece of circumstantial evidence sometime crosses the line between COG and character assassination. No one should ever be convicted of a crime as serious as murder simply because they made the jury mad in their actions, or inactions in this case.

That same character issues that should not necessarily play into the guilt phase of trial would very much be of issue in any penalty phase and/or sentencing.

[Stellagant]

No, AE, there is no legal requirement that Jason care. But what does it say about him if he doesn't? And what perspective does it give the evidence if he doesn't?

Jason said he doesn't care about public opinion. How much clearer could he be? His bigger concern and that of his attorney is that he doesn't want to be arrested for a crime he didn't commit. Not a bad priority to have, imo.

[Stellagant]

But your friend knew what happened to his wife. He knew cancer took her, she was buried and it was final. The circumstances are entirely different. Jason supposedly does not know what happened to his wife. She was murdered and if he didn't do it, that means someone else did. And this person is walking free. And while this murderer is out there and not paying for his crime, Jason is vacationing and dating and not allowing Cassidy to have a relationship with Michelle's family.

I am definitely not judging how someone grieves. I don't know what Jason has done in private or if he has done anything at all. What I am saying is that his behavior or lack thereof, along with everything else that has been learned over the past 2 years AND what I knew of him before Michelle's murder, leads me to believe he killed his wife.

Jason knows his wife and son were murdered but your conclusion that he doesn't know who is responsible isn't based on any public fact. I think quite a few of Michelle and Jason's friends and family have told LE who they think is most likely responsible.

It also isn't true that Jason does not allow Cassidy to have a relationship with all of Michelle's family. So far, the only complaint has been from Linda and Meredith Fisher. I'm not sure why it is so difficult for you to connect the dots.

[Stellagant]

I have a very good male friend whose wife died of cancer. Before the 1st anniversary of her death he was remarried. He didn't go to her grave on the anniversary. People grieve differently and what you think should have been done is fine for you but it may not be what others would do.

Cynthia Sommer got breast implants and slept with her dead husbands friends. She wasn't guilty of murder because Todd wasn't murdered but she was convicted of murder because 12 people thought her actions were inappropriate. Again....it may not be what you or I or the jurors would have done but it was what she did while grieving the death of her husband.

Bookie, the jury in Cynthia's trial also had forensic evidence before them. They didn't know lab results were tainted to the point of worthless. The prosecutor in that case could not support the charges without that evidence.

[jerry50]

Sorry Card, but there will be no such testimony in any criminal trial. What LE calls 'lack of cooperation' the US Constitution calls 'the right to remain silent'.


I just finished reading a true crime book, "You'll Never Find My Body" and in closing arguments the DA did mention that the husband didn't cooperate with investigators and that was a sign of conciousness of guilt.

[Stellagant]

I just finished reading a true crime book, "You'll Never Find My Body" and in closing arguments the DA did mention that the husband didn't cooperate with investigators and that was a sign of conciousness of guilt.

That's because during trial, LE did testify that John Racz spoke to them. Racz didn't remain silent and his words were used against him. I fail to see any comparison to Jason Young's complete silence, which can't be used against him.

http://nobodycases.blogstream.com/v1/pid/251911_John-Racz-found-guilty-of-no-body-murder-of-his-wife-16-years-ago.html

While John Racz reported meeting with her in the following days and getting a call from her saying she was "going away to think," as the defendant described it to police, detectives could never corroborate his story.

[Stellagant]

Let's face the facts here Jason doesn't care about ANYTHING other then himself. If so he would have looked for his wife and child's killer oh i almost forgot he don't have to look does he. He see's them each and everyday he looks at himself in the mirror. jmo

The "facts here" are nothing more than your sarcastic opinion. JMO.

[alterEgo©]

I just finished reading a true crime book, "You'll Never Find My Body" and in closing arguments the DA did mention that the husband didn't cooperate with investigators and that was a sign of conciousness of guilt.Prosecutor's closing arguments are not testimony. And I thought inconsistent statements to investigators was brought up in closing in Racz's murder trial :confused:

[Cardinal]

Sorry Card, but there will be no such testimony in any criminal trial. What LE calls 'lack of cooperation' the US Constitution calls 'the right to remain silent'.

AE, I'm not going to argue the 5th amendment with you. I fully understand that Jason has the right to remain silent. But I disagree that there will not be testimony that Jason hung up on LE, refused to do a walkthrough of the crime scene and has not made inquiries into the status of the investigation. There will certainly be an objection, and the jury may be told to ignore it, but it'll be heard, IMO.

[Allyson]

Allyson--

The behaviors you list can certainly cast suspicion. Behavior as a piece of circumstantial evidence sometime crosses the line between COG and character assassination. No one should ever be convicted of a crime as serious as murder simply because they made the jury mad in their actions, or inactions in this case.

That same character issues that should not necessarily play into the guilt phase of trial would very much be of issue in any penalty phase and/or sentencing.

AE

Let me just say how nice it is to have a discussion with you without it getting snippy. While we don't see eye to eye on many aspects of this case, we both want Michelle's killer to be arrested, receive a fair trial and be appropriately sentenced. I hate that it has taken this long, and would love to see an arrest tomorrow, but I hope that the reason for the long delay in justice being served is because the DA is building a fair and air tight case.

I agree that Jason's behavior over the last 2 years should not solely be used against him in a trial. There is no way to generalize the grieving process and therefore no way for anyone to say what Jason should or should not have done over the past 2 years. I do think there would be a few things that he has done since the murder that would be used against him. The prosecution is building a case...and some of his actions since the murder would certainly be part of the big picture.

[alterEgo©]

AE, I'm not going to argue the 5th amendment with you. I fully understand that Jason has the right to remain silent. But I disagree that there will not be testimony that Jason hung up on LE, refused to do a walkthrough of the crime scene and has not made inquiries into the status of the investigation. There will certainly be an objection, and the jury may be told to ignore it, but it'll be heard, IMO.I'm not asking for an argument Card.

Everything you say will be commented on by LE is covered under the right to remain silent and there is a plethora of case law to support it.

[Cardinal]

I'm not asking for an argument Card.

Everything you say will be commented on by LE is covered under the right to remain silent and there is a plethora of case law to support it.

I sure it is and I'm sure there is. That doesn't mean it won't be said.

[alterEgo©]

It has always bothered me that LE has to go digging into Jason's emails to try to find something to prove their case. They want to use Jason's own words to prove he killed his wife.

Why?

If LE could go so far as to date the residue in a medicine dropper, could they not go so far as to anayze fiber and tie Jason to the murder scene via carpet fiber from the hotel room?

There is evidence the DA's office cannot comment on which is the reason why they have not sought an indictment. I sure would like to know what that evidence is.

Did they get the shoe from China and the tread pattern doesn't match up? Does it match up but since 2 other brands also carry that outsole design, is that enough reasonable doubt to keep the evidence under the umbrella of 'casts suspicion' instead of 'proves murder'?

ps - ditto allyson :smile:

[Cardinal]

It has always bothered me that LE has to go digging into Jason's emails to try to find something to prove their case. They want to use Jason's own words to prove he killed his wife.

Why?

If LE could go so far as to date the residue in a medicine dropper, could they not go so far as to anayze fiber and tie Jason to the murder scene via carpet fiber from the hotel room?

There is evidence the DA's office cannot comment on which is the reason why they have not sought an indictment. I sure would like to know what that evidence is.

Did they get the shoe from China and the tread pattern doesn't match up? Does it match up but since 2 other brands also carry that outsole design, is that enough reasonable doubt to keep the evidence under the umbrella of 'casts suspicion' instead of 'proves murder'?

ps - ditto allyson :smile:

I think LE subpoenaed Jason's emails looking for an accomplice. As for the carpet fibers, would those fibers necessarily be present? I'm asking because I don't know how easily they would transfer.

[Allyson]

It has always bothered me that LE has to go digging into Jason's emails to try to find something to prove their case. They want to use Jason's own words to prove their case.

Why?

If LE could go so far as to date the residue in a medicine dropper, could they not go so far as to anayze fiber and tie Jason to the murder scene via carpet fiber from the hotel room?

There is evidence the DA's office cannot comment on which is the reason why they have not sought an indictment. I sure would like to know what that evidence is.

Did they get the shoe from China and the tread pattern doesn't match up? Does it match up but since 2 other brands also carry that outsole design, is that enough reasonable doubt to keep the evidence under the umbrella of 'casts suspicion' instead of 'proves murder'?

ps - ditto allyson :smile:

I honestly think the reason for no arrest has something to do with not being able to 100% place him at the scene. Too much doubt.

I think they are waiting for him to hang himself with his own words, which is what happens in so many cases.

ETA: I also think there were a few mess ups in the beginning of the investigation that slowed the investigation down tremendously.

[lament79]

I didn't chop up the sentence, AE. Jason's comments (plural) in the exchange with Kim make me think he could care less whether or not there is an arrest for Michelle's murder:

"The only thing that matters is the investigation itself and you can see that it has led to nothing." I see no concern whatsoever about the fact that the investigation has led to nothing.

"...in time, things will die down." Die down??? He wants things to die down???

Viewed as whole, I see nothing in this email exchange to indicate that Jason gives a flying flip that his wife and unborn child see justice.

But I agree that the one sentence, unchopped, is about Roger Smith. And I still find it strange that Jason's attorney would be satisfied that his client may be presumed guilty in the court of public opinion.


Good points Card. Really quite disturbing and sad. He's very passive in those e-mail comments.

He's talking to his sister Heather in these? If so she "seems" to doubt him a little as well. I'm not saying she is but its just the way it comes off.

JMO

[lament79]

What is it called when someone commits a crime and then pushes it out of their mind like it never happened? And in turn they actually believe it to be so. What is the term for this called?

[Cardinal]

[B]~snipped~

Good points Card. Really quite disturbing and sad. He's very passive in those e-mail comments.

He's talking to his sister Heather in these? If so she "seems" to doubt him a little as well. I'm not saying she is but its just the way it comes off.

JMO


Hi, lament. He's talking to his sister Kim, the older sister. And I sense some concern on her part as well, especially around the fact that he's not defending himself.

JMO

[Cardinal]

What is it called when someone commits a crime and then pushes it out of their mind like it never happened? And in turn they actually believe it to be so. What is the term for this called?

Repressed memory?

[kingbuff]

AE, I'm not going to argue the 5th amendment with you. I fully understand that Jason has the right to remain silent. But I disagree that there will not be testimony that Jason hung up on LE, refused to do a walkthrough of the crime scene and has not made inquiries into the status of the investigation. There will certainly be an objection, and the jury may be told to ignore it, but it'll be heard, IMO.

No one will be willing to perjure himself in court. Jason did not hang up on the cops....he was not asked to do a walk-through....he knows the status of the investigation and knows that Spivey thinks him a killer.

[Cardinal]

No one will be willing to perjure himself in court. Jason did not hang up on the cops....he was not asked to do a walk-through....he knows the status of the investigation and knows that Spivey thinks him a killer.

Are you saying that Det Spivey perjured himself in the SW affidavit?

ETA: And unless you were privy to that phone call, which I doubt, you only know what you've been told or what you've decided for yourself. Maybe you were told incorrect information.

[Allyson]

No one will be willing to perjure himself in court. Jason did not hang up on the cops....he was not asked to do a walk-through....he knows the status of the investigation and knows that Spivey thinks him a killer.

So you are saying the Detective Spivey lied to Judge Stephens in the sw's?

How do you know this?

[Cardinal]

So you are saying the Detective Spivey lied to Judge Stephens in the sw's?

How do you know this?

It sounds to me like that's exactly what he's saying. But since I have no evidence of Det Spivey's dishonesty, and I do have evidence of Jason's dishonesty, I choose to believe Det Spivey.

[alterEgo©]

What is it called when someone commits a crime and then pushes it out of their mind like it never happened? And in turn they actually believe it to be so. What is the term for this called?
Denial............

(actually I think the word you are looking for is 'disassociation')

[Allyson]

It sounds to me like that's exactly what he's saying. But since I have no evidence of Det Spivey's dishonesty, and I do have evidence of Jason's dishonesty, I choose to believe Det Spivey.

It's quite an allegation, thats for sure!

[Cardinal]

I've been paying bills today - including my cell phone bill. I usually just write the check, but the amount was different - the "other charges" were more than usual, so I looked at the detail.

I have a nationwide calling plan with more minutes than I ever use. But interestingly, my bill lists all the calls anyway.

I wonder if Michelle saw all the calls to MM on their cell phone bill, and questioned it when/if Jason called that night?

[annalyzer]

I've been paying bills today - including my cell phone bill. I usually just write the check, but the amount was different - the "other charges" were more than usual, so I looked at the detail.

I have a nationwide calling plan with more minutes than I ever use. But interestingly, my bill lists all the calls anyway.

I wonder if Michelle saw all the calls to MM on their cell phone bill, and questioned it when/if Jason called that night?


Even so I still have to look at this as premeditated if Jason is the murderer. I really don't think he could have pulled this off for so long if it was a spur of the moment decision to murder Michelle. Other reasons too but I cant' think right now. :unsure:

[Cardinal]

Even so I still have to look at this as premeditated if Jason is the murderer. I really don't think he could have pulled this off for so long if it was a spur of the moment decision to murder Michelle. Other reasons too but I cant' think right now. :unsure:

Hi, Anna - good to see you. :)

It's really the opposite for me, regarding premeditation, I mean. I think if Jason killed Michelle and it were premeditated, there would have been more of a trail, once LE really looked into it.

For me, the messiness of it indicates a lack of premeditation - at least for any longer than it took him to decide to leave the hotel room and drive back to Raleigh.

JMO

[Leanne Weich]

Hey Card, how are you>

Another thing I find to be most odd is that for a man who professes that his child is the centre of his world (or words to that effect), he has shown absolutely no concern for the son who was murdered. That, imo, is not indicative of a loving parent. He may have had his reasons for not wanting to be married to Michelle anymore but, if one is to believe his friends, he was looking forward to Rylan's birth.

Even though lots of Jason's behaviours can't be brought into the evidence part of the trial, the DA will and can (I believe) say just about anything in the opening and closing statements and, once said, cannot be withdrawn. Let's face it, once the jury hears the case, even with an admonishment to not consider opening and closing statements, by the time the jury has heard from LE and the coroner and seen the autopsy photos, those same opening and closing statements will still be in their heads and I very much doubt people will totally ignore them.

[Cardinal]

Hey Card, how are you>

Another thing I find to be most odd is that for a man who professes that his child is the centre of his world (or words to that effect), he has shown absolutely no concern for the son who was murdered. That, imo, is not indicative of a loving parent. He may have had his reasons for not wanting to be married to Michelle anymore but, if one is to believe his friends, he was looking forward to Rylan's birth.

Even though lots of Jason's behaviours can't be brought into the evidence part of the trial, the DA will and can (I believe) say just about anything in the opening and closing statements and, once said, cannot be withdrawn. Let's face it, once the jury hears the case, even with an admonishment to not consider opening and closing statements, by the time the jury has heard from LE and the coroner and seen the autopsy photos, those same opening and closing statements will still be in their heads and I very much doubt people will totally ignore them.

Hi, Leanne, I'm well and very much hope that you are - good to see you, too. :)

There are many things that make me question Jason's disengagement from the investigation of the murder of his wife and son, and your point is among them.

And I completely agree, 5th amendment notwithstanding, if Jason is tried for Michelle's murder, the jury WILL hear of Jason's behavior, and it WILL matter.

JMO

[Stellagant]

So what your saying is I am not allowed to give my opinion?
There is nothing sarcastic about what I posted it's jmo.
For all you know I could know Jason myself and all about his ways.

You're allowed to give your opinion as am I. Jason has remained silent therefore it is not a public fact that Jason doesn't care about ANYTHING, it is merely your opinion based on nothing of substance. I don't believe you know Jason or anyone who knows him.

Let's face the facts here Jason doesn't care about ANYTHING other then himself.

[Stellagant]

I sure it is and I'm sure there is. That doesn't mean it won't be said.

It won't be said because the questions can't be asked of the witness.

[annalyzer]

Hi, Anna - good to see you. :)

It's really the opposite for me, regarding premeditation, I mean. I think if Jason killed Michelle and it were premeditated, there would have been more of a trail, once LE really looked into it.

For me, the messiness of it indicates a lack of premeditation - at least for any longer than it took him to decide to leave the hotel room and drive back to Raleigh.

JMO

Oh I agree he didn't plan on bludgeoning her to death. But the lack of fingerprints leads me to believe he used gloves, thus premeditated.

[Stellagant]

No one will be willing to perjure himself in court. Jason did not hang up on the cops....he was not asked to do a walk-through....he knows the status of the investigation and knows that Spivey thinks him a killer.

I wonder what the DA thinks of Spivey's professionalism. A walk-through of a secured homicide crime scene would contaminate it.

[bookie]

Bookie, the jury in Cynthia's trial also had forensic evidence before them. They didn't know lab results were tainted to the point of worthless. The prosecutor in that case could not support the charges without that evidence.


I know this is sort of off topic but the jury in that case had testimony of tainted lab results but they ignored it and chose to convict her based on behavior. The breast implants and her sexual escapades are what led to her conviction imo.

[Cardinal]

Oh I agree he didn't plan on bludgeoning her to death. But the lack of fingerprints leads me to believe he used gloves, thus premeditated.

That makes sense. But if Jason killed Michelle, I don't think it was planned for days/weeks in advance, as some do.

Goodnight :seeya:

[Kat4Eagles]

I am not sure I am asking this right, but I am going to try anyway.

Is there a way to figure out the height and possibly the weight of the killer by the force of the blows somehow?

Like if you could measure the distance of where one had to stand to administer such a beating that we read took place in such a small area of the room?

I have seen or read about cases where the weapon, which I don't think

we ever found out in this case, we have theories of baseball bats, golf

clubs, hockey sticks, ham~mers, tire irons, etc, but if we knew the

weapon, couldn't they figure out the approximity (sp) of how and where and maybe the size of the person who used it?

Sorry, if this is confusing, I know what I am trying to say, but it is hard to explain.

Kat

[Jester]

No one will be willing to perjure himself in court. Jason did not hang up on the cops....he was not asked to do a walk-through....he knows the status of the investigation and knows that Spivey thinks him a killer.

Did he tell you that he didn't hang up on the police? Does that mean the police are lying? If so, isn't that an odd thing to lie about? If they wanted to lie about Jason, shouldn't they at least try to get some mileage out of the lie?

It is a fact that Jason doesn't know anything about the investigation other than what is printed in the news, because we all know that Jason has not spoken to the police at all.

[Kat4Eagles]

Did he tell you that he didn't hang up on the police? Does that mean the police are lying? If so, isn't that an odd thing to lie about? If they wanted to lie about Jason, shouldn't they at least try to get some mileage out of the lie?

It is a fact that Jason doesn't know anything about the investigation other than what is printed in the news, because we all know that Jason has not spoken to the police at all.


Don't you think it was more like the conversation started getting

unpleasant and maybe accusatory, and that led Jason to tell them,

"Look, I am on my way back, but if you are going to speak to me like this, I have to get an attorney"

Something like that?

Remember we were told here that L E was questioning some of Jason's friends, and it was a friend who warned him of what was happening?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I don't think anyone is going to answer my confusing question.


:pout:

Kat

[Allyson]

Don't you think it was more like the conversation started getting

unpleasant and maybe accusatory, and that led Jason to tell them,

"Look, I am on my way back, but if you are going to speak to me like this, I have to get an attorney"

Something like that?

Remember we were told here that L E was questioning some of Jason's friends, and it was a friend who warned him of what was happening?

Kat

Nope. I don't think it was like that at all.

Remember, Detective Spivey signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth. I choose to believe that as opposed to what someone was told happened.

I mean, do you think Spivey would risk his career over Jason Young?

[Leanne Weich]

Kat

Regarding your question about telling the height etc. of the person, I'm not sure how it would work. I do know that with a bullet wound, for instance, a trajectory can be determined and, from that, they can ascertain where the shooter was likely standing and how tall that person might be.

As far as a bludgeoning death, however, I have no idea.

[Allyson]

Kat

Regarding your question about telling the height etc. of the person, I'm not sure how it would work. I do know that with a bullet wound, for instance, a trajectory can be determined and, from that, they can ascertain where the shooter was likely standing and how tall that person might be.

As far as a bludgeoning death, however, I have no idea.

I would think you would have to have the murder weapon to even begin to determine the ht/wt of the killer.

[achristie]

Nope. I don't think it was like that at all.

Remember, Detective Spivey signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth. I choose to believe that as opposed to what someone was told happened.

I mean, do you think Spivey would risk his career over Jason Young?

In a word? No.

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

Kat---


Blood splatter analysis can show all kinds of things about the murder. Including height of perp, distance between perp and victim, which hand the perp used to deliver the blows....

[alterEgo©]

Nope. I don't think it was like that at all.

Remember, Detective Spivey signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth. I choose to believe that as opposed to what someone was told happened.

I mean, do you think Spivey would risk his career over Jason Young?
Another detective signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth when he said Cassidy was found walking in the house.

[alterEgo©]

Oh I agree he didn't plan on bludgeoning her to death. But the lack of fingerprints leads me to believe he used gloves, thus premeditated.What lack of fingerprints are you referring to anna?

[alterEgo©]

No Leanne, a prosecutor cannot say just about anything in opening statements or closing arguments.

There are rules.

And improper statements by Prosecutors in open and/or close have resulted in guilty verdicts getting tossed out the window.

[Kat4Eagles]

Nope. I don't think it was like that at all.

Remember, Detective Spivey signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth. I choose to believe that as opposed to what someone was told happened.

I mean, do you think Spivey would risk his career over Jason Young?


Umm, Allison, Det. Spivey wasn't even on the case back then.
He didn't come in until later, I believe the spring of 2007.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Kat

Regarding your question about telling the height etc. of the person, I'm not sure how it would work. I do know that with a bullet wound, for instance, a trajectory can be determined and, from that, they can ascertain where the shooter was likely standing and how tall that person might be.

As far as a bludgeoning death, however, I have no idea.

Okay, thanks.
Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Kat---


Blood splatter analysis can show all kinds of things about the murder. Including height of perp, distance between perp and victim, which hand the perp used to deliver the blows....


Thanks too,

Do you think they have completed all their testing by now?

Kat

[achristie]

Umm, Allison, Det. Spivey wasn't even on the case back then.
He didn't come in until later, I believe the spring of 2007.

Kat

Umm, Kat, what does that have to do with her statement or anything else?

[Stellagant]

I am not sure I am asking this right, but I am going to try anyway.

Is there a way to figure out the height and possibly the weight of the killer by the force of the blows somehow?

Like if you could measure the distance of where one had to stand to administer such a beating that we read took place in such a small area of the room?

I have seen or read about cases where the weapon, which I don't think

we ever found out in this case, we have theories of baseball bats, golf

clubs, hockey sticks, ham~mers, tire irons, etc, but if we knew the

weapon, couldn't they figure out the approximity (sp) of how and where and maybe the size of the person who used it?

Sorry, if this is confusing, I know what I am trying to say, but it is hard to explain.

Kat


Not only is it possible, it has been done. Might be some info online about the missing person case of Jessica O'Grady. Christopher Edwards was convicted even though her body was never found. LE dismantled his bedroom, including drywall and recreated it at the crime lab.

[Kat4Eagles]

Not only is it possible, it has been done. Might be some info online about the missing person case of Jessica O'Grady. Christopher Edwards was convicted even though her body was never found. LE dismantled his bedroom, including drywall and recreated it at the crime lab.


And, we know that they took a piece of drywall , so I guess they experimented with that.

And, maybe thats why they went to the storage unit to look at the bedroom furniture, for prints and splatter.

Thanks to all that answered, I know I didn't word that well.

I will be so glad when this case is over.

Kat

ETA: Thank you Stella!!

[Stellagant]

Nope. I don't think it was like that at all.

Remember, Detective Spivey signed and swore that the info he presented to a judge was the truth. I choose to believe that as opposed to what someone was told happened.

I mean, do you think Spivey would risk his career over Jason Young?

There is really no way to prove Spivey lied.

[Kat4Eagles]

There is really no way to prove Spivey lied.


And, Det Spivey wasn't there to hear firsthand what Jason said enroute to Raleigh, he was only told about it later, that Jason had hung up.

Kat

[Stellagant]

Did he tell you that he didn't hang up on the police? Does that mean the police are lying? If so, isn't that an odd thing to lie about? If they wanted to lie about Jason, shouldn't they at least try to get some mileage out of the lie?

It is a fact that Jason doesn't know anything about the investigation other than what is printed in the news, because we all know that Jason has not spoken to the police at all.

That's not true. Jason has known the content of all s/w served on his property and his daughter when they were served, not a year or more later when the public found out. He knows the inventory of what was seized in searches, and he knows the results of the NTO. He knows when he phoned Meredith and what was said as well as the content, time and conversations he had with everyone else. He knows what his daughter has said to the therapist and the therapist's recommendations. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

[Stellagant]

And, Det Spivey wasn't there to hear firsthand what Jason said enroute to Raleigh, he was only told about it later, that Jason had hung up.

Kat

and all he has to say when challenged is that he repeated what he had been told and it's possible he misunderstood. It's no biggie because search warrants aren't evidence.

[Stellagant]

And, Det Spivey wasn't there to hear firsthand what Jason said enroute to Raleigh, he was only told about it later, that Jason had hung up.

Kat

It actually only becomes a big deal if the search warrant produced evidence that they try to use against Jason. At that point, his attorney would challenge it.

[annalyzer]

What lack of fingerprints are you referring to anna?


No bloody fingerprints of Jason's found. If there had been I'm sure there would have been an arrest long ago.

[Stellagant]

No bloody fingerprints of Jason's found. If there had been I'm sure there would have been an arrest long ago.

It's also possible a bloody fingerprint that hasn't been identified was found.

[5swab5]

No bloody fingerprints of Jason's found. If there had been I'm sure there would have been an arrest long ago.

This is the main reason that I have been thinking premeditation all the way.

Nothing quite says love, like walking into the master bedroom in the middle of the night wearing gloves.barf

MOO

[kingbuff]

This is the main reason that I have been thinking premeditation all the way.

Nothing quite says love, like walking into the master bedroom in the middle of the night wearing gloves.barf

MOO

Somebody call the cops! SWAB killed the board!

[Kat4Eagles]

Nothing going on, I guess, unless the case is still on for Feb, 4th, another 9 days away.

Everytime I check in, I am waiting to get a PM saying that it is all over.
Not happening.

:shrug:

Kat

[kingbuff]

You should have made that request 2 years ago about your friend, and Michelle.

I barely know SWAB. I doubt she knew Michelle. Take it easy on her. She didn't realize what she was doing.

[Cardinal]

Nothing going on, I guess, unless the case is still on for Feb, 4th, another 9 days away.

Everytime I check in, I am waiting to get a PM saying that it is all over.
Not happening.

:shrug:

Kat

I don't think you'll need to wait for a PM, Kat. It'll be headlines in the Raleigh media, I think. They may not have had much coverage recently, but if something breaks in this case, they'll cover it.

JMO

[Cardinal]

This is interesting, I think, coming from the same attorney representing Jason in the custody suit:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3750528/

"I find it incredulous that Brad Cooper didn't take the stand," said Alice Stubbs, an attorney representing Nancy Cooper's parents, Garry and Donna Rentz, and twin sister, Krista Lister. "You need to hear from the father."

Do you think that means Ms. Stubbs will advise Jason to give testimony at the custody hearing?

[Kat4Eagles]

I don't think you'll need to wait for a PM, Kat. It'll be headlines in the Raleigh media, I think. They may not have had much coverage recently, but if something breaks in this case, they'll cover it.

JMO

Hi Card,

I stopped holding my breath months ago.

No, what I meant is that if Jason is ever arrested, I would be PM slammed with I told you so's.

Still can't believe nothing is going on..every website covering this case has stallled too.

Next up, cov & custody, but nothing about the criminal aspects of the case.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

This is interesting, I think, coming from the same attorney representing Jason in the custody suit:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3750528/

"I find it incredulous that Brad Cooper didn't take the stand," said Alice Stubbs, an attorney representing Nancy Cooper's parents, Garry and Donna Rentz, and twin sister, Krista Lister. "You need to hear from the father."

Do you think that means Ms. Stubbs will advise Jason to give testimony at the custody hearing?


I don't know, but that is from last Oct....and Brad has since been charged.

I think Jason should be prepared to testify or answer questions, if he wants to keep his daughter, don't you?


Kat

[Cardinal]

Hi Card,

I stopped holding my breath months ago.

No, what I meant is that if Jason is ever arrested, I would be PM slammed with I told you so's.

Still can't believe nothing is going on..every website covering this case has stallled too.

Next up, cov & custody, but nothing about a criminal case.

Kat

I see. Well, FWIW, one of those PMs won't be from me. I do think that at some point Jason will be arrested, though.

I also thought this was interesting (saw a reference to this elsewhere):

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3658943/

"Cooper, who declined to comment Thursday, gave a deposition for more than seven hours to the Rentzes' attorneys. They were able to ask him anything that relates to his fitness as a parent, including whether he played a role in his wife's death."

It appears that questions about the murder may indeed be relevant in the custody hearing.

[Cardinal]

I don't know, but that is from last Oct....and Brad has since been charged.

I think Jason should be prepared to testify or answer questions, if he wants to keep his daughter, don't you?


Kat

Yes, I do, Kat. I wonder if he will?

[Kat4Eagles]

I see. Well, FWIW, one of those PMs won't be from me. I do think that at some point Jason will be arrested, though.

I also thought this was interesting (saw a reference to this elsewhere):

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3658943/

"Cooper, who declined to comment Thursday, gave a deposition for more than seven hours to the Rentzes' attorneys. They were able to ask him anything that relates to his fitness as a parent, including whether he played a role in his wife's death."

It appears that questions about the murder may indeed be relevant in the custody hearing.


I know you won't be one of the ones to brag about your sluething skillzzz, lol.

I am curious about a post someone made the other nite, about thinking mistakes were made in this case.

Wonder what kind and how serious they were.?

Serious enough to jeopardize the whole case?

The obvious ones we talked about, the missing tooth, no sexual exam, etc.

What else could there be?

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

I see. Well, FWIW, one of those PMs won't be from me. I do think that at some point Jason will be arrested, though.

I also thought this was interesting (saw a reference to this elsewhere):

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3658943/

"Cooper, who declined to comment Thursday, gave a deposition for more than seven hours to the Rentzes' attorneys. They were able to ask him anything that relates to his fitness as a parent, including whether he played a role in his wife's death."

It appears that questions about the murder may indeed be relevant in the custody hearing.


Definately seems they will be able to go there.

Hmm.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

Yes, I do, Kat. I wonder if he will?


Card, I honestly think he has to.

He has no choice.

IMO
Kat

[achristie]

This is interesting, I think, coming from the same attorney representing Jason in the custody suit:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3750528/

"I find it incredulous that Brad Cooper didn't take the stand," said Alice Stubbs, an attorney representing Nancy Cooper's parents, Garry and Donna Rentz, and twin sister, Krista Lister. "You need to hear from the father."

Do you think that means Ms. Stubbs will advise Jason to give testimony at the custody hearing?

Somehow I doubt it. She's on the other side of the fence now. Perhaps , that is why she is looking for a change of venue?

MOO Aggie

[achristie]

I see. Well, FWIW, one of those PMs won't be from me. I do think that at some point Jason will be arrested, though.

I also thought this was interesting (saw a reference to this elsewhere):

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3658943/

"Cooper, who declined to comment Thursday, gave a deposition for more than seven hours to the Rentzes' attorneys. They were able to ask him anything that relates to his fitness as a parent, including whether he played a role in his wife's death."

It appears that questions about the murder may indeed be relevant in the custody hearing.

I took the time to watch some of those lengthy depositions. Extremely uncomfortable to watch, despite thinking/knowing that he murdered his wife.

Will we see the same in this case? I wonder.

MOO Aggie

[alterEgo©]

This is interesting, I think, coming from the same attorney representing Jason in the custody suit:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3750528/

"I find it incredulous that Brad Cooper didn't take the stand," said Alice Stubbs, an attorney representing Nancy Cooper's parents, Garry and Donna Rentz, and twin sister, Krista Lister. "You need to hear from the father."

Do you think that means Ms. Stubbs will advise Jason to give testimony at the custody hearing?
Sure, why wouldn't she.

[alterEgo©]

I see. Well, FWIW, one of those PMs won't be from me. I do think that at some point Jason will be arrested, though.

I also thought this was interesting (saw a reference to this elsewhere):

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3658943/

"Cooper, who declined to comment Thursday, gave a deposition for more than seven hours to the Rentzes' attorneys. They were able to ask him anything that relates to his fitness as a parent, including whether he played a role in his wife's death."

It appears that questions about the murder may indeed be relevant in the custody hearing.
There won't be a question as to Jason's role in the murder, the WD suit ruling will establish it as a matter of fact for the court.

There will be no questions posed to anyone about the murder as it will not be a triable issue before the court.

From what I understand.

[achristie]

There won't be a question as to Jason's role in the murder, the WD suit ruling will establish it as a matter of fact for the court.

There will be no questions posed to anyone about the murder as it will not be a triable issue before the court.

From what I understand.

Are you saying it won't be up for discussion because it is already a fact accepted by the court?

[alterEgo©]

Are you saying it won't be up for discussion because it is already a fact accepted by the court?
Yup.

That's not saying it won't factor into the judge's decision of what is in Cassidy's best interest.

And it's also assuming Jason stipulates, which I have no reason to believe he won't.

Judge Sasser's commentary from the Cooper case keeps being lobbed out there, but seemingly w/o regard to the fact that Brad had not been charged, arrested, or ruled a slayer. The court was going to have to determine if he was culpable in his wife's murder as part of the custody issue. No such determination will have to be made in Fisher v Young.

[Stellagant]

Yup.

That's not saying it won't factor into the judge's decision of what is in Cassidy's best interest.

And it's also assuming Jason stipulates, which I have no reason to believe he won't.

Judge Sasser's commentary from the Cooper case keeps being lobbed out there, but seemingly w/o regard to the fact that Brad had not been charged, arrested, or ruled a slayer. The court was going to have to determine if he was culpable in his wife's murder as part of the custody issue. No such determination will have to be made in Fisher v Young.

I don't see Jason's attorney stipulating that Jason indeed killed Michelle. Not when it was a default judgment with no evidence presented.

[Kat4Eagles]

I don't see Jason's attorney stipulating that Jason indeed killed Michelle. Not when it was a default judgment with no evidence presented.

Could the Judge ask Jason, through his attorney, why he chose not to fight such charges?

Kat

[Stellagant]

Could the Judge ask Jason, through his attorney, why he chose not to fight such charges?

Kat

I doubt the Judge will have to ask. I think the attorney will volunteer the reason is one of constitutional rights. I also think she will ask the Judge to subpoena Spivey. Of course, it may not get that far. It's likely going to be dismissed because of the wrong venue issue. A Judge can't ignore the statutes. JMO

[alterEgo©]

I don't see Jason's attorney stipulating that Jason indeed killed Michelle. Not when it was a default judgment with no evidence presented.I sure do. It's not like the WD ruling has any bearing on guilt or innocence outside a civil courtroom. It's brilliant stategy and keeps him from having to answer questions that we all know LE would be feeding to the Fishers to ask him in a depo.

[alterEgo©]

Could the Judge ask Jason, through his attorney, why he chose not to fight such charges?

KatI sure hope not as that would cross the line into client-atty privilege.

[Stellagant]

I sure do. It's not like the WD ruling has any bearing on guilt or innocence outside a civil courtroom. It's brilliant stategy and keeps him from having to answer questions that we all know LE would be feeding to the Fishers to ask him in a depo.

What questions could LE possible feed to Jason that Jason wouldn't answer?

[alterEgo©]

What questions could LE possible feed to Jason that Jason wouldn't answer?
Anything related to his actions the morning and day of the murder.

There are pilfering thru his emails which makes me believe their evidence is inconclusive and they need Jason's own words to seal the deal. The more words the better . And if not directly to them then thru someone else.

[alterEgo©]

This is the main reason that I have been thinking premeditation all the way.

Nothing quite says love, like walking into the master bedroom in the middle of the night wearing gloves.barf

MOO
Why wears gloves to strangle someone?

[5swab5]

Why wears gloves to strangle someone?

A husband that is supposed to be miles away on a business trip and doesn't want his prints lifted from the cold neck of his murdered wife.

MOO

[Barbara2]

A husband that is supposed to be miles away on a business trip and doesn't want his prints lifted from the cold neck of his murdered wife.

MOO

Or someone who is a huge fan of CSI (or whatever the show was) and is living out some sick fantasy. Maybe. IMO

[enigma™]

Or someone who is a huge fan of CSI (or whatever the show was) and is living out some sick fantasy. Maybe. IMO

Or just a murderer that does not want to get caught.

[Cardinal]

I sure do. It's not like the WD ruling has any bearing on guilt or innocence outside a civil courtroom. It's brilliant stategy and keeps him from having to answer questions that we all know LE would be feeding to the Fishers to ask him in a depo.

I follow your reasoning, but AE, if Jason stipulates that he killed Michelle with regard to the WDS, what impact will that have on the custody suit?

[Stellagant]

Anything related to his actions the morning and day of the murder.

There are pilfering thru his emails which makes me believe their evidence is inconclusive and they need Jason's own words to seal the deal. The more words the better . And if not directly to them then thru someone else.

I still don't see that happening. Brief as it was, Jason already told LE where he was. I don't believe the Judge can or will allow a fishing expedition that isn't related to the issue of child custody now, over two years later.

[Tia]

Anything related to his actions the morning and day of the murder.

There are pilfering thru his emails which makes me believe their evidence is inconclusive and they need Jason's own words to seal the deal. The more words the better . And if not directly to them then thru someone else.


What do you expect the outcome to be? You seem to have changed your tune somewhat. Just wondering why.

[Tia]

I still don't see that happening. Brief as it was, Jason already told LE where he was. I don't believe the Judge can or will allow a fishing expedition that isn't related to the issue of child custody now, over two years later.


Why? Its one of the reasons that the Fisher's are asking for custody. Jason was declared Michelle's slayer. Its most definately is related to the issue of child custody.

[Silsbee]

I follow your reasoning, but AE, if Jason stipulates that he killed Michelle with regard to the WDS, what impact will that have on the custody suit?

Hi Card,
A jury found OJ guilty in a civil trial and he was able to keep custody of his children so it might not have as much impact as some might think.

jmo
Sils

[achristie]

Hi Card,
A jury found OJ guilty in a civil trial and he was able to keep custody of his children so it might not have as much impact as some might think.

jmo
Sils

I always thought that was strange. I wonder how the children fared staying with him? Did Nicole's family try to get custody? I can't remember.

MOO Aggie

[Silsbee]

I always thought that was strange. I wonder how the children fared staying with him? Did Nicole's family try to get custody? I can't remember.

MOO Aggie


Yes, IIRC Nicole's sister filed for custody. There was some type of altercation at his home involving his daughter when she was in high school? Don't remember the details - I think she called 911 but prior to that there wasn't much said about how the kids were doing.

jmo
Sils

[Stellagant]

Why? Its one of the reasons that the Fisher's are asking for custody. Jason was declared Michelle's slayer. Its most definately is related to the issue of child custody.

It's not a reason that will result in CY being removed from her parent. That's the point some of you refuse to understand. The State does not step in and temporarily remove children from a parent just because that parent lost a civil suit over a death that happened two years ago. There must be proof the child is at risk of imminent harm. Waiting over two years to ask the wrong court to intervene is a tad ridiculous.

[Kat4Eagles]

Hi Card,
A jury found OJ guilty in a civil trial and he was able to keep custody of his children so it might not have as much impact as some might think.

jmo
Sils

Hi Sils.
But, that was after he was found not guilty in the criminal case.
Sydney and Justin lived with the Browns while OJ was in jail over a
year.

After he was released, the Browns, Denise included, fought to keep the children, but OJ got his parental rights back and the children were returned to him.

This case , however, is completely, backwards.
And, even though OJ was found guilty in the civil trial, he did not lose his children then , either.

Some people thought Justin and Sydney may have also been witnesses, as they were found asleep inside the home.

Again, the Young case is not being played out in the usual order, criminal, first, civil to follow.

Kat

[Kat4Eagles]

It's not a reason that will result in CY being removed from her parent. That's the point some of you refuse to understand. The State does not step in and temporarily remove children from a parent just because that parent lost a civil suit over a death that happened two years ago. There must be proof the child is at risk of imminent harm. Waiting over two years to ask the wrong court to intervene is a tad ridiculous.


Waiting over two years is going to be hard to overcome, imo.

And harder to explain.

And, even harder to justify taking an innocent child away from her Dad.

Kat

[Leanne Weich]

Hi Sils.
But, that was after he was found not guilty in the criminal case.
Sydney and Justin lived with the Browns while OJ was in jail over a
year.

After he was released, the Browns, Denise included, fought to keep the children, but OJ got his parental rights back and the children were returned to him.

This case , however, is completely, backwards.
And, even though OJ was found guilty in the civil trial, he did not lose his children then , either.

Some people thought Justin and Sydney may have also been witnesses, as they were found asleep inside the home.

Again, the Young case is not being played out in the usual order, criminal, first, civil to follow.

Kat


Didn't the OJ case end in a settlement between him and the Browns. I think he had physical custody but they had guardianship or something along those lines?

I do think Jason better hope that he gets a COV because, quite clearly Judge Sasser weighs the likelihood of whether the father is possibly a murderer or not in her decision making process. There is no possiblility in this case - Jason has been declared the murderer even if only in a civil trial. That can't imo be to his advantage and the fact that he didn't even try to fight his way out of being declared the slayer of Michelle doesn't look good no matter how one rationalizes it. Yes, we know it is his right to stay silent but it doesn't make it right. It can certainly be argued that he didn't have Cassidy's best interests at heart by accepting this civil judgment against himself by default.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

I think the custody issue will be settled out of court. LF will get very liberal visitation and JY will not have to get a psych eval. or give a deposition. He will give her just about anything to avoid having to speak on the record.

This will be a win for LF (an MF) because she is seeking to b a part of CY's life, and it wil show the extent to which JY will going to protect his hide. He ain't talking.

If this turns out to be true, it should lay to rest any concerns the Youngs have about the Fishers. If they are willing to let CY spend time with them instead of fighting them in the courts then I would assume that they trust them. IMO of course.

[Tia]

It's not a reason that will result in CY being removed from her parent. That's the point some of you refuse to understand. The State does not step in and temporarily remove children from a parent just because that parent lost a civil suit over a death that happened two years ago. There must be proof the child is at risk of imminent harm. Waiting over two years to ask the wrong court to intervene is a tad ridiculous.


No no no.........I was responding to your point about it having nothing to do with the custody case. Since Linda mentions it as one of her reasons for wanting custody, it will be discussed at some point.

[Tia]

Waiting over two years is going to be hard to overcome, imo.

And harder to explain.

And, even harder to justify taking an innocent child away from her Dad.

Kat


Taking an innocent child away from a "Slayer", which I hope, no one here wants to see Cassidy raised by her mother and brother's "Slayer".

[Stellagant]

Didn't the OJ case end in a settlement between him and the Browns. I think he had physical custody but they had guardianship or something along those lines?

I do think Jason better hope that he gets a COV because, quite clearly Judge Sasser weighs the likelihood of whether the father is possibly a murderer or not in her decision making process. There is no possiblility in this case - Jason has been declared the murderer even if only in a civil trial. That can't imo be to his advantage and the fact that he didn't even try to fight his way out of being declared the slayer of Michelle doesn't look good no matter how one rationalizes it. Yes, we know it is his right to stay silent but it doesn't make it right. It can certainly be argued that he didn't have Cassidy's best interests at heart by accepting this civil judgment against himself by default.

What on earth does any of that have to do with NC laws and a change of venue, which is a statute requirement? Judge Sasser has to follow the statutes and the Constitution. You may not agree that it is "right" that he remained silent but it is not something Judge Sasser can punish him for by removing his child from his care.

[Stellagant]

No no no.........I was responding to your point about it having nothing to do with the custody case. Since Linda mentions it as one of her reasons for wanting custody, it will be discussed at some point.

I doubt that it will get that far because it is a temporary custody claim about a murder that happened two years ago.

[Stellagant]

I think the custody issue will be settled out of court. LF will get very liberal visitation and JY will not have to get a psych eval. or give a deposition. He will give her just about anything to avoid having to speak on the record.

This will be a win for LF (an MF) because she is seeking to b a part of CY's life, and it wil show the extent to which JY will going to protect his hide. He ain't talking.

If this turns out to be true, it should lay to rest any concerns the Youngs have about the Fishers. If they are willing to let CY spend time with them instead of fighting them in the courts then I would assume that they trust them. IMO of course.

It can't be settled out of court because out of court there isn't a custody issue. Jason's parental rights are intact and he alone decides who his child visits and that will continue unless a court intervenes.

[BSNBREVARDNC]

It can't be settled out of court because out of court there isn't a custody issue. Jason's parental rights are intact and he alone decides who his child visits and that will continue unless a court intervenes.

So.......If the two side come up with an arrangement what will it be called? You know, if they agree to something "out of court" or something that is not imposed upon them by a court decision?

Can't they come to an understanding (arrangement, agreement, etc.) "out of court" and then LF could drop her suit?

[Tia]

I doubt that it will get that far because it is a temporary custody claim about a murder that happened two years ago.


Not just "a murder".
The murder of Cassidy's mother and brother.

[Stellagant]

So.......If the two side come up with an arrangement what will it be called? You know, if they agree to something "out of court" or something that is not imposed upon them by a court decision?

Can't they come to an understanding (arrangement, agreement, etc.) "out of court" and then LF could drop her suit?

There is no custody issue if LF drop's her claim. Jason has no reason to agree to any "arrangement" outside of a court order. If the Court asks them to reach agreement, the court would then have to agree to it.

[Stellagant]

Not just "a murder".
The murder of Cassidy's mother and brother.

It still happened over two years ago.

[Tia]

It still happened over two years ago.

2 years, 5 years.......
I don't see what it matters. Murder is murder.
I am sure the Fisher's followed the advice of their attorney.

[awareness]

2 years, 5 years.......
I don't see what it matters. Murder is murder.
I am sure the Fisher's followed the advice of their attorney.

ITA
Murder is murder, but it even hits closer to home in this case since Jason is CY's father and was RY's father/MY's husband. Its also MY PERSONAL OPINION that JY killed MY.

I can easily see JY agreeing to whatever LF/MF want just so he won't have to talk/give depo/go to the psych eval.

JMO/IMO